Explorez tous les épisodes du podcast The Gray Area with Sean Illing

What does it mean to have a good life when so much feels wrong? In this episode of The Gray Area, guest host Jonquilyn Hill speaks with Vox journalist Rachel Wilkerson Miller about her forthcoming book, The Nice Life. Rachel argues that even when we feel anxious or unsettled, we can build a satisfying life through curiosity, friendship, creativity, and generosity. Jonquilyn and Rachel explore how to find joy in difficult times, take pleasure in ordinary things, and share that pleasure with others. Guest Host: Jonquilyn Hill, host of Explain It To Me Guest: Rachel Miller, Vox Senior Even Better & Lifestyle Editor We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Can prediction markets serve a purpose beyond gambling? In today’s episode, guest host Miles Bryan speaks with professor Finn Brunton in a conversation based on his recent Harper’s article, “The Chaos Machine: Prediction Markets and the Triumph of Crypto-Anarchy.” The two explore alternative visions for prediction markets: as tools for gathering collective knowledge, or as a way to undermine the institutions we rely on. They discuss whether putting money on the line brings us closer to the truth, how betting can create incentives to manipulate events, and what we risk when more of our shared reality becomes something to wager on. Host: Miles Bryan, Vox Senior Producer and Reporter Guest: Finn Brunton, Professor at the University of California, Davis We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What happens to a society when its members become increasingly wary of one another, and relationships break down based on gender lines? In today’s episode, guest host Christine Emba speaks with pollster and writer Dan Cox about his new book Generation Uncoupled: America's New Gender Divide and the Crisis of Human Connection. They consider how and why men and women in America are growing apart, rising safety concerns among young women, and the widening political divide on gender lines. Host: Christine Emba, columnist and author Guest: Dan Cox, Director of the Survey Center on American Life at the American Enterprise Institute and author of Generation Uncoupled. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Is there a humane way for the state to kill someone?  Guest host Miles Bryan sits down with New York Times Magazine writer and ProPublica reporter Pamela Colloff to pull back the curtain on critical flaws in America's approach to the death penalty. From the tragedy of wrongful convictions to the profound impact capital punishment  has on victims' families, can the death penalty ever truly be justified? Drawing on decades of reporting and a new book, Catch the Devil⁠, Colloff examines the reality of executions in states like Florida, the prevalence of unreliable jailhouse informants, and why a system built on human judgment can never be infallible.Guest Host: Miles Bryan, Vox Senior Producer and Reporter Guest: Pamela Colloff, author of Catch the Devil We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Is wanting to be rich selfish? Does making money require exploiting other people? Or can the pursuit of wealth actually benefit society? In this episode guest host Sally Herships speaks with philosopher Jason Brennan about his book, Why It's OK to Want to Be Rich. Jason makes the case that both wanting money and earning money are signs that we’re creating value for society. In this conversation, they explore why society believes money corrupts relationships, what wealthy individuals owe to society, and the cultural differences around money and wealth. This episode was produced in partnership with Vox's Future Perfect. Host: Sally Herships, journalist and director of the audio program at Columbia University's Graduate School of Journalism. (Find Sally’s work here). Guest: Jason Brennan, professor of philosophy and public affairs at Georgetown University’s McDonough School of Business. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/member Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Gray Area is taking a break today — but we’ve got something special for you. We’re dropping an episode from one of our favorite podcasts, Unexplainable from Vox. In it, host Sally Helm considers whether or not it’s ethical to kill lantern flies, an invasive species that has gained a foothold on the East Coast of the US.In the episode Sally explores what we owe other living creatures, how squishing bugs changes us, and what we should do when there is not a single clear moral path. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We were told that airing our personal trauma in public would set us free. Instead, we got “the trauma script,” celebrity branding, and performative empathy. In today's episode, guest host Christine Emba talks with cultural theorist and professor Catherine Liu, author of Traumatized: The New Politics of Public Suffering. In this scathing book, Catherine argues that our modern obsession with the "trauma script" isn't a radical act of liberation, but rather a distraction from widening economic inequality. They discuss why identity pluralism has eclipsed class struggle, how public therapy speak undermines democratic debate, and why we must move away from commodified self-absorption to focus on collective political and economic change. Guest Host Christine Emba, columnist and author Guest: Catherine Liu, author of Traumatized: The New Politics of Public Suffering We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In today's episode, Vox senior reporter and producer Miles Bryan talks with writer Daniel Kolitz about his piece for The Baffler, "Paid Phones." Kolitz explains what it felt like to be among the first wave of workers displaced by generative AI. The two of them talked about how fintech payday loan apps use hidden fees and subscriptions to profit off of desperate borrowers, and how an online community on Reddit is organizing a quiet resistance against predatory lenders.  Guest Host: Miles Bryan, Vox Senior Producer and Reporter Guest: Daniel Kolitz, author of Paid Phones . We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What should a college teach? How to think? How to find a career? How to be a good citizen? What about how to acquire money, influence, and power? In today’s episode, guest host Bryan Walsh speaks to journalist and writer Theo Baker about his investigation into Stanford University, where Baker was an undergrad student at the time. He entered the school as a bright-eye freshman, eager to build a career in tech. He left disillusioned by the school’s culture. His book reveals an insidious relationship between Silicon Valley and Stanford, where power, money, and success are prized higher than ethics, education, and the wellbeing of students. Guest Host: Bryan Walsh, Senior writer, Coefficient Giving Guest: Theo Baker, author of How to Rule the World: An Education in Power at Stanford University We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why does it feel so hard to start a family today? How much of that is truly a personal choice? In this episode of The Gray Area, guest host Christine Emba sits down with journalist Anna Louie Sussman to discuss her new book, Inconceivable: The Impossibility of Family in an Age of Uncertainty. Together, they look past the surface-level "cost of living" arguments to explore how economic volatility, climate anxiety, and the commodification of reproduction are reshaping the way millennials and Gen Z think about parenthood. Guest Host Christine Emba, columnist and author Guest: Anna Luise Sussman, author Inconceivable: The Impossibility of Family in an Age of Uncertainty We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Is "adulthood" a moving target? For millennials, hitting the milestones of the past — homeownership, secure careers, and financial independence — feels tougher than ever. We aren't just having our individual midlife crises; we are simultaneously navigating economic, cultural, and existential crises too. Guest host Jonquilyn Hill sits down with Amil Niazi, columnist at The Cut, to explore why this stage of life feels so precarious. From the domino effect of the 2008 financial crisis and the collapse of the traditional career path, to the pressures of the "sandwich generation" — caretaking for both children and aging parents — we break down why the millennial experience is fundamentally different from generations past. Host: Jonquilyn Hill, host of Explain It To Me Guest: Amil Niazi, columnist The Cut We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you could change anything about your personality, anything at all, what would it be? And why would you want to change it? Writer Olga Khazan spent a year trying to answer those questions, and documented the experience in her new book Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change. In this episode, which originally aired in March of 2025, Sean speaks with Olga about the science of personality change, the work it takes to change yourself, and what makes up a personality, anyway. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Olga Khazan, author of Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’ve all heard that "sitting is the new smoking," but the research behind that phrase goes much deeper. How bad is sitting for you really? In this episode guest host Bryan Walsh is joined by Manoush Zomorodi — host of NPR’s TED Radio Hour and author of Body Electric — to explore how our sedentary, screen-filled lives are reshaping our physical health from the neck down. Manoush shares findings from her own clinical trial, where she partnered with scientists to determine the minimum amount of movement the human body actually needs to function. Whether you're a desk jockey or a parent concerned about screen time, this conversation offers a practical, science-backed approach to reclaiming your physical health in a digital world. Guest Host: Bryan Walsh, Senior writer, Coefficient Giving Guest: Manoush Zomorodi, Host, TED Radio Hour and author of Body Electric. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Are we truly alone in the universe? Despite the lack of hard evidence, belief in aliens and UFOs, officially known as Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP), has shifted from the fringes to the center of mainstream culture. In this episode of The Gray Area, host Jonquilyn Hill is joined by Adam Kirsch, senior editor at The Atlantic and author of the new book We Want to Believe: How Aliens Went Mainstream and Why It Matters. They explore why our fascination with extraterrestrial life persists and what that need to believe tells us about our current relationship with authority, scientific expertise, and even spirituality. The search for aliens has become the ultimate self-portrait of humanity. Host: Jonquilyn Hill, host of Explain It To Me Guest: Adam Kirsch, Senior editor, The Atlantic and author of We Want to Believe We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Have you noticed the bad vibes around dating lately? Whether you’re swiping on apps or scrolling through social media, it’s easy to feel like the romantic landscape has become a battleground — at least, for the heterosexual among us. This pervasive feeling of hopelessness and negativity — often called "hetero-pessimism" — is everywhere. But is this cynicism the actual picture, or is it just another digital trap? In this episode of The Gray Area, host Jonquilyn Hill is joined by Magdalene J. Taylor, senior editor at Playboy. Together, they dissect why we’ve become so hostile towards straight dating, the disconnect between our online expectations and real-world reality, and why Magdalene is making a radical case for "hetero optimism." Host: Jonquilyn Hill, host of Explain It To Me Guest: Magdalene J. Taylor, senior editor for Playboy We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Is it ever okay to put a price on a kidney? Why is it illegal to sell an organ, but perfectly legal to sell blood plasma? This episode explores the world of "repugnant transactions" — the markets we find morally offensive — and asks why we ban certain markets as "gross" or "unethical" while ignoring others that might cause more harm. In this episode of The Gray Area, host Bryan Walsh sits down with Nobel laureate Alvin Roth, who wrote the recent book Moral Economics, to discuss how markets are the key to understanding our most deeply held social values. They break down why society chooses to ban certain transactions, how those choices affect real lives, and whether we can use "market design" to save people without violating our ethical standards. Host: Bryan Walsh, Vox Editorial Director Guest: Alvin Roth, Professor of Economics at Stanford University and author of Moral Economics: From Prostitution to Organ Sales, What Controversial Transactions Reveal About How Markets Work. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We like to think of memory as a record of the past. But that’s not really what it is. Memory doesn’t keep the past — it can also remake it. It stitches fragments into stories, and those stories — true or not — are what we end up calling our life, and sometimes, our collective history. Today’s episode is a rerun of an interview that originally published last year with Charan Ranganath, a neuroscientist and author of a book called Why We Remember. The two discuss the strange alchemy of remembering and how the stories our minds create end up creating us. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Charan Ranganath, neuroscientist and author of Why We Remember We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sigmund Freud is probably the most famous psychoanalyst. Yet many of his theories have been critiqued or discredited. So is there anything we can still learn from the father of psychoanalysis? In today’s episode Sean speaks with professor Mark Solms, author of The Only Cure: Freud and the Neuroscience of Mental Healing. Mark argues that while Freud may have been wrong about many things, he was right about one important thing: the human mind cannot be fully understood on purely biological terms. He believes that modern psychiatry has become focused on treating mental suffering like a chemical problem, instead of focusing on emotional and psychological aspects. Sean and Mark discuss the conscious versus the unconscious mind, whether psychoanalysis is the best therapy, and why Freud is still relevant today. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The internet is rife with chatter about “heteropessimism,” the feeling that gender relations are broken and heterosexual relationships are doomed. But is this just cynical discourse, like a coping mechanism for bad dates? Or is this a symptom of a much deeper, systemic breakdown? In this episode of The Gray Area, guest host Jonquilyn Hill is joined by Sarah Jones, senior writer for The Intelligencer. Together, they peel back the performative irony to look at the harsh realities of dating in a post-Dobbs, politically volatile United States. From the economic structures that make leaving bad relationships feel impossible, to the "manosphere" versus the "pink pill," Sarah and Jonquilyn discuss why we are struggling to connect — and why "hopeful pessimism" might be the most responsible way to build a future. Host: Jonquilyn Hill, host of Explain It To Me Guest: Sarah Jones, senior writer, IntelligencerWe would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What happens when we read less? What does that do to our ability to understand complex ideas, or even think for ourselves?In today’s episode, guest host Jonquilyn Hill speaks with Atlantic staff writer Rose Horowitch. In her recent cover story, Rose argues that we are entering a postliterate age. Although we’re surrounded by text — like emails, text messages, and notifications — we no longer have an interest in reading longer, book-length content. Jonquilyn and Rose discuss how the digital age has transformed the way we consume information, what deep reading teaches us that scrolling can't, and how being postliterate is changing our politics and culture. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Gray Area is taking a short break this week — but we’ve got something special for you. We’re dropping an episode from one of our favorite podcasts, Unexplainable. In it, host Noam Hassenfeld and Vox senior reporter Sigal Samuel explore one of the biggest dilemmas facing growing families: How much should parents decide about their children’s future from prenatal testing alone? Noam and Sigal wrestle with the moral dilemmas surrounding genetic testing, parental choice, and the limitations of trying to predict the future. Host: Noam Hassenfeld, Host of Unexplainable Guest: Sigal Samuel, Vox Senior Reporter Listen to more Unexplainable episodes here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/unexplainable/id1554578197Read Sigal’s advice column here: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/459003/designer-babies-embryo-selection-polygenic-testing-ethics We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with writer and philosopher Ian Bogost about his new book The Small Stuff. They discuss what modern life has lost in its pursuit of convenience, efficiency, and optimization. From stick shifts to coffee cups, lawnmowers, and smartphones, Bogost argues that many of the small sensory experiences that once connected us to the physical world have quietly disappeared. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Ian Bogost We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The internet is changing. For years our primary gateway to the internet has been search engines: we ask a question, a list of websites pops up, and we choose which ones to click on. But we are rapidly headed towards a different model, one in which AI-generated answers to our questions are our primary gateway to the internet. How we got here starts with Google. In today’s episode, guest host Miles Bryan interviews journalist Ryan Broderick to discuss “Google zero,” a point in time when Google stops pointing us towards a list of search results and instead only produces AI-generated answers. Miles and Ryan discuss the evolution of the internet, how search engine optimization changed content production, why AI may fundamentally change how we find information, and what the future of search might look like. Host: Miles Bryan, Vox Senior Producer and Reporter Guest: Ryan Broderick, Editor-in-Chief of Garbage Day We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean Illing talks with neuroscientist Gregory Berns, author of The Self Delusion. Berns claims that the idea of a unified, persistent self is a kind of illusion, and that we are better understood as multiple selves at different moments in time, tied together by a story — which is what we call our identity. Sean and Greg also talk about whether the brain is a computer, how perception works, the limits of thinking too much about thinking, and what psychedelics can do to disrupt and change the stories we tell about ourselves. This episode originally aired in November of 2022. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Gregory Berns (@gberns), author; professor of psychology and distinguished professor of neuroeconomics, Emory University We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For years, right-wing influencers and politicians have pushed the conservative movement to have more controversial, anti-establishment views. Why are some of those figures now upset about where the movement has ended up? In today’s episode, guest host Bryan Walsh speaks with Vox Senior Correspondent Zack Beauchamp about conservatives who decry the extremist direction that the right is moving but refuse to recognize the role they played in pushing the movement in that direction. The two discuss US Rep. Thomas Massie (R-KY), pundit Ben Shapiro, podcaster Candace Owens, the drivers of conservative extremism, and what the party might look like after Donald Trump. Guest Host: Bryan Walsh, Vox Senior Editorial Director Guest: Zack Beauchamp, Vox Senior CorrespondentRead Zack’s essay: The MAGA stars freaked out by their own movement We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Birth rates are dropping and global population growth is slowing. Why? We’re heard all the different speculation: It’s the economy. It’s housing costs. It’s the feminists. But what if the biggest driver is that thing we all carry in our pockets? In today’s episode, guest host Christine Emba speaks with data journalist John Burn-Murdoch about declining fertility rates across vastly different cultures and economies. They discuss the role smartphones might play in this phenomenon, why governments have struggled to reverse the trend, and how dropping birthrates could change our economy and culture. Guest Host Christine Emba, columnist and author Guest: John Burn-Murdoch, Chief Data Reporter for The Financial Times We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

AI was supposed to make our lives better. Instead, it’s made many of us scared and angry. Communities are protesting data centers across the country, and polling shows most Americans think AI is moving too fast.In today's episode, guest host Miles Bryan talks with independent journalist Jasmine Sun, who argues that public attitudes toward AI are undergoing a fundamental shift. Jasmine argues that AI is seen not simply as a technology to adopt, but as an elite political project to resist. The two discuss “AI populism,” the parallels with the Industrial Revolution, how public opinion about AI may affect US politics, and how the leaders of Silicon Valley are unprepared for the growing backlash against AI. Guest Host: Miles Bryan, Vox reporter and senior producer Guest:Jasmine Sun, journalist Find Jasmine’s Substack here: https://jasmi.news/ We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with writer Liz Bruenig about faith, doubt, and the experience of believing in God in a modern, skeptical age. They discuss religious experience, the limits of science, the appeal of cynicism, Dostoevsky, beauty, mystery, and whether belief is ultimately a choice. They also explore why religion persists and whether living with uncertainty is itself a form of faith. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Elizabeth Bruenig (@ebruenig) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with journalist David Wallace-Wells about a looming climate event that could make 2027 one of the hottest years ever recorded. They discuss the return of El Niño, why some scientists are calling it a “Godzilla El Niño,” and what it could reveal about the future of global warming. They also explore climate adaptation, political complacency, extreme weather, technological progress, and whether humanity is prepared for the world it’s creating. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: David Wallace-Wells (@dwallacewells) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Who are America’s heroes? Who deserves our admiration and a place in our nation’s story? In today’s episode, guest host Jonquilyn Hill talks with constitutional law professor Kermit Roosevelt about his book The Nation That Never Was: Reconstructing America’s Story, which argues that America’s most important ancestors are not the founding fathers but the heroes of Reconstruction. The two discuss the importance of founding myths, why Americans are constantly fighting over “the real America,” and what it means to be American. Guest Host: Jonquilyn Hill, Host of Vox’s Explain It To Me podcast Guest: Kermit Roosevelt, constitutional law professor and author of The Nation That Never Was: Reconstructing America’s Story We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy about the crisis lurking beneath America's political dysfunction. Murphy’s new book “Crisis of the Common Good” argues that the country is suffering from a collapse of connection, belonging, and purpose. They discuss loneliness, powerlessness, liberalism, democracy, Trumpism, corporate power, social media, and why so many Americans feel disconnected from their communities, their institutions, and each other. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Sen. Chris Murphy (@ChrisMurphyCT) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with Atlantic writer Charlie Warzel about the increasingly weird experience of being online. They discuss AI-generated content, bots, algorithms, the “dead internet theory,” and why so much of the web now feels artificial, manipulated, or unreal. They also explore psyops, conspiracy culture, social media, and the deeper question lurking beneath the AI boom: What are human beings actually for? Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Charlie Warzel (@cwarzel) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with journalist Jordan Ritter Conn about his book “American Men,” an intimate look at four men trying to figure out what manhood and masculinity have given them versus what they have cost them, and what to do with the gap between the men they think they’re supposed to be and the men they actually are. They talk about being fathers and sons as well as about violence, shame, ambition, male friendship, loneliness, and why being a “good man” might mean finally letting go of the desire to perform manhood. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Jordan Ritter Conn (@jordanconn) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Who gets to decide what’s taught in college classrooms? And should the answer be different at private colleges than at public universities? In today’s episode, guest host Avishay Artsy speaks to philosophy professor Martin Peterson about why Texas A&M University asked him to stop teaching part of Plato’s “Symposium.” The two discuss academic freedom, who gets to decide what’s taught in university classrooms, and the value of Plato’s writing. The episode explores what happens when politics and educational values collide on campus. Host: Avishay Artsy, Vox Supervising Producer Guest: Martin Peterson, Professor of Philosophy at Texas A&M University We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with psychiatrist and neuroscientist Amir Levine about attachment, insecurity, and why our relationships shape us more than we think. They discuss his updated framework for anxious, avoidant, and secure attachment styles, why being ignored or excluded can feel so threatening, and how small everyday interactions can either calm the brain or send it spiraling. They also dig into childhood dynamics, therapy, conflict, friendship, loneliness, and different ways we can build more secure lives.Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Amir Levine, psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and author of Secure: the revolutionary guide to creating a secure life We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with writer Sigal Samuel about AI successionism, the growing movement that sees artificial intelligence as humanity’s rightful successor. They discuss why some people in the AI world think humanity should be replaced, how this vision borrows from old religious ideas about salvation and transcendence, and why artificial intelligence is a dangerous thing to worship. This episode was produced in partnership with Vox's Future Perfect. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Sigal Samuel (@SigalSamuel) Click here to read Sigal’s article on AI successionism. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with dream scientist Michelle Carr about what dreams are, why we have them, and what they might reveal about the mind. They discuss nightmares, lucid dreaming, memory, consciousness, and whether dreams are just random brain noise or a kind of overnight therapy. They also explore why dreams feel so real and what the strange world of sleep can teach us about waking life.Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Michelle Carr We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Americans have absorbed the Protestant work ethic: the idea that our value as human beings – and our eventual salvation – is determined by how hard we work. Political philosopher Elizabeth Anderson explains how this evolved, why it pervades everything, and why it’s no longer serving us.This episode originally aired in January of 2024. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)Guest: Elizabeth Anderson, professor of public philosophy at the University of Michigan. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with writer Christine Emba about the strange and increasingly anti-social world young people are inheriting online. They discuss the rise of “looksmaxxing,” the manosphere, Gen Z’s retreat from dating and sex, and how the internet has transformed what might have been normal insecurities into a permanent state of anxiety and self-optimization. Along the way, they explore loneliness, intimacy, masculinity, social media, and what happens to a society when human connection starts to feel unbearable. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Christine Emba (@ChristineEmba) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with University of Chicago psychologist Nicholas Epley about the strange gap between our need to be social and how social we choose to be. They explore why we underestimate how good conversations will feel, why awkwardness looms so large in our minds, and how small acts of connection can make us happier, less lonely, and more open to the people around us. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Nicholas Epley We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Almost a decade ago, Tom Nichols warned that Americans were losing respect for expertise. He didn’t expect things to get this bad. Sean talks with Nichols about his 2017 book “The Death of Expertise” and what’s happened since: why people don’t just distrust experts but actively push back against them, how the internet turns bad ideas into communities, and why a society that can’t agree on basic facts can’t function for long. They also dig into the deeper causes: loneliness, narcissism, and the weird psychology of living in a world where everything “just works.” Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Tom Nichols (@RadioFreeTom) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with writer David Epstein about why unlimited freedom and endless choice often make us less creative, less focused, and less fulfilled. They discuss the hidden power of constraints, the psychology of attention, why humans struggle with too many options, and how useful limits can help us do better work and live more meaningful lives. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: David Epstein (@DavidEpstein) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

College was supposed to be a ticket to a better life. A degree meant a good job, a decent salary, and a brighter future. That promise is breaking down. For many graduates, a college degree no longer guarantees economic security or upward mobility. In today’s episode, guest host Miles Bryan talks with reporter and author Noam Scheiber about his new book, Mutiny: The Rise and Revolt of the College-Educated Working Class, which argues that the economic prospects for college graduates have steadily eroded since the mid-2000s. The result is scrambling our politics. Miles and Noam discuss why college graduates are increasingly drawn to socialist politicians like Bernie Sanders and Zohran Mamdani, why they’ve become some of the strongest supporters of organized labor, and how economic frustration among educated workers could transform the American political landscape. Host: Miles Bryan, Vox reporter and senior producer Guest: Noam Scheiber, New York Times reporter and author of Mutiny: The Rise and Revolt of the College-Educated Working ClassWe would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If someone asked you to describe the state of the world right now, odds are you’d reach for the bad news first: political division, AI panic, war, ecological crisis, unraveling everywhere. And none of that is imaginary. But Rebecca Solnit thinks the pessimistic view is incomplete. We’re good at seeing catastrophe and reversal, and much worse at seeing the slower, more positive transformations that unfold over decades. Solnit’s new book, The Beginning Comes After the End, is an argument for noticing those changes without denying the darkness of the present. She joins Sean to talk about hope, backlash, political despair, and why fragile victories are still victories worth defending. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)  Guest: Rebecca Solnit  We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.  And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with Vox senior correspondent Anna North about the strange rise of the “Make America Healthy Again” (MAHA) movement. They explore why MAHA resonates, especially with younger people, how legitimate concerns about food and public health blur into conspiracy thinking, and why social media has become such a powerful engine for both. They also discuss the collapse of trust in institutions, the emotional logic behind wellness movements, and what it would take to rebuild trust in science and public health. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Anna North (@annanorthtweets) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with psychologist Dacher Keltner about the science of awe and why it might be one of the most important emotions we have. They explore how awe quiets the ego, shifts our attention away from ourselves, and reconnects us to other people, nature, and larger patterns of meaning. Along the way, they discuss why music, moral courage, and even grief can trigger awe, how modern life may be starving us of it, and what it reveals about the limits of reason, the power of the body, and the deeper ways we make sense of being human. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)  Guest: Dacher Keltner We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Everyone says having kids changes your life. That’s true. But it’s not the whole story. Sean talks with author Derek Thompson about fatherhood, how raising kids can shock you, and why parenting feels not so much “hard” as “nonstop.” They explore the weird psychology of loving something more than yourself, the loss of control over your own time, and the bittersweet realization that every moment with your child is already slipping away. Also: why two kids is not just twice the work, and why you might still want to get on the ride anyway. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)  Guest: Derek Thompson (@DKThomp) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with psychologist Alison Gopnik about how children think, learn, experience the world, and why their minds may be more powerful than ours in some crucial ways. They explore the idea that kids are the “research and development” wing of the human species, built for exploration, curiosity, and discovery, while adults are optimized for focus, efficiency, and getting things done. Along the way, they discuss why children notice things we’ve stopped seeing, what we lose when we grow up, and what parenting reveals about love, care, and the nature of intelligence itself. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)  Guest: Alison Gopnik (@AlisonGopnik) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Supreme Court is aggressive on almost everything. Except the internet. Sean talks with Vox’s Ian Millhiser about a surprising pattern at the Court. While the Court has been eager to reshape schools, healthcare, and civil rights law, it has consistently taken a cautious, almost hands-off approach to regulating the internet. They unpack a recent case involving music piracy, the broader legal fight over who’s responsible for what happens online, and why even a highly ideological Court seems wary of breaking the digital world. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)  Guest: Ian Millhiser (@imillhiser) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Pentagon has spent years building AI tools to help identify targets, speed up battlefield decisions, and make war more “efficient.” What started as an effort to analyze drone footage has grown into something bigger and much more unsettling. Sean talks with Bloomberg’s Katrina Manson about Project Maven, the Defense Department’s long-running push to bring AI into warfighting. They discuss how these systems actually work, what “human in the loop” really means, why autonomy is no longer some far-off sci-fi scenario, and what happens when the speed and scale of machine decision-making collide with the fog of war. This episode was produced in partnership with Vox's Future Perfect. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)  Guest: Katrina Manson (@KatrinaManson) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices