Summary

Cathy Carroll, author of 'Hug of War', discusses the unique challenges of leading a family business with both love and logic. She explores the concept of polarities in family businesses, where opposing forces such as candor and diplomacy, or reveal and conceal, coexist and create tension.

Cathy emphasizes the importance of adopting a 'both-and' mindset to find innovative solutions that incorporate the benefits of both sides. She also addresses the issues of domain crossover, where power is used in one domain to influence the other, and shadow influence, where individuals without formal roles or ownership wield significant power within the business.

In this conversation, Cathy Carroll discusses the concept of shadow influence and how it can impact leadership in a family business. She shares examples of shadow influence, both positive and negative, and emphasizes the importance of understanding and managing polarities in a family business. Cathy also highlights the challenges and opportunities of the family mindset in succession planning and the value of constructive conflict in navigating family business dynamics.

Takeaways

Family businesses face unique challenges due to the coexistence of opposing forces or polarities.

Adopting a 'both-and' mindset allows for innovative solutions that incorporate the benefits of both sides of a polarity.

Domain crossover occurs when power is used in one domain to influence the other, which can create tension and unfairness.

Shadow influence refers to individuals without formal roles or ownership who wield significant power within the business.

Recognizing and addressing these dynamics is crucial for effective leadership in family businesses. Shadow influence can have a significant impact on leadership in a family business, whether it is hidden or transparent.

Understanding and managing polarities is crucial in a family business, as they can create both challenges and opportunities.

The family mindset plays a role in succession planning, and it is important to navigate the tensions between the leading and rising generations.

Constructive conflict is essential in a family business, as it allows for the exploration of different ideas and perspectives.

Engaging in brave conversations and addressing conflict in a productive way can lead to better outcomes in a family business.

You can buy the book here: https://www.legacyonward.com/hug-of-war

Support the Show

The podcast is entirely self-funded by me. I am not looking for sympathy as it is something that I love to do and I have a passion for providing great content for family businesses across the world. Some listeners have asked for ways in which they can support the show, be that through reviews, sharing with friends or a donation. As such I have set up a page that outlines all the ways that you can support what I am doing.

www.fambizpodcast.com/support

Work With Russ

If what I have spoken about in the show resonates and you want to discuss how I can help you and your family business drop me an email: russ@familybusinesspartnership.com or head over to www.familybusinesspartnership.com

Sign up to the Newsletter

You can get podcasts, videos and blogs delivered directly to your inbox by signing up to the newsletter. Head over to www.fambizpodcast.com and sign up now

Mentioned in this episode:

The...

Summary

Cathy Carroll, author of 'Hug of War', discusses the unique challenges of leading a family business with both love and logic. She explores the concept of polarities in family businesses, where opposing forces such as candor and diplomacy, or reveal and conceal, coexist and create tension.

Cathy emphasizes the importance of adopting a 'both-and' mindset to find innovative solutions that incorporate the benefits of both sides. She also addresses the issues of domain crossover, where power is used in one domain to influence the other, and shadow influence, where individuals without formal roles or ownership wield significant power within the business.

In this conversation, Cathy Carroll discusses the concept of shadow influence and how it can impact leadership in a family business. She shares examples of shadow influence, both positive and negative, and emphasizes the importance of understanding and managing polarities in a family business. Cathy also highlights the challenges and opportunities of the family mindset in succession planning and the value of constructive conflict in navigating family business dynamics.

Takeaways

Family businesses face unique challenges due to the coexistence of opposing forces or polarities.

Adopting a 'both-and' mindset allows for innovative solutions that incorporate the benefits of both sides of a polarity.

Domain crossover occurs when power is used in one domain to influence the other, which can create tension and unfairness.

Shadow influence refers to individuals without formal roles or ownership who wield significant power within the business.

Recognizing and addressing these dynamics is crucial for effective leadership in family businesses. Shadow influence can have a significant impact on leadership in a family business, whether it is hidden or transparent.

Understanding and managing polarities is crucial in a family business, as they can create both challenges and opportunities.

The family mindset plays a role in succession planning, and it is important to navigate the tensions between the leading and rising generations.

Constructive conflict is essential in a family business, as it allows for the exploration of different ideas and perspectives.

Engaging in brave conversations and addressing conflict in a productive way can lead to better outcomes in a family business.

You can buy the book here: https://www.legacyonward.com/hug-of-war

Support the Show

The podcast is entirely self-funded by me. I am not looking for sympathy as it is something that I love to do and I have a passion for providing great content for family businesses across the world. Some listeners have asked for ways in which they can support the show, be that through reviews, sharing with friends or a donation. As such I have set up a page that outlines all the ways that you can support what I am doing.

www.fambizpodcast.com/support

Work With Russ

If what I have spoken about in the show resonates and you want to discuss how I can help you and your family business drop me an email: russ@familybusinesspartnership.com or head over to www.familybusinesspartnership.com

Sign up to the Newsletter

You can get podcasts, videos and blogs delivered directly to your inbox by signing up to the newsletter. Head over to www.fambizpodcast.com and sign up now

Mentioned in this episode:

The...

THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS

The First Noble Truth: be aware that life brings with it many forms of dissatisfaction, frustration, irritation, and many levels of suffering.

The Second Noble Truth: recognise that these different types of suffering are produced by your mind, even if the apparent cause is external. The mind reacts negatively to life experiences that we didn’t want, and does the same when we don’t get things we were hoping for. The Buddha called these wants and dislikes “thirsts”. It is thirsts that cause unhappy states of mind.

The Third Noble Truth: we can learn to cultivate skills that stop our thirsts and thus end our various forms of suffering.

The Fourth Noble Truth: to cultivate these skills we have to follow a path that contains eight components, as follows.

Right Mindfulness: mindfulness is a three-pronged skill with regards to our state or frame of mind. Notice. Pause. Change. Although taught around the world today mindfulness is often misunderstood by its teachers and therefore also by its students, so it is important to learn mindfulness the way it was originally taught, that is, within the wider context we are summarising here. One could say that Right Mindfulness is the development of the ability to notice unhealthy thoughts and feelings, then shift the mind away from these to much wiser ones.

Right Concentration or Focus: if mindfulness is taking the mind away from unhelpful states, then Right Concentration or Focus is its partner. We try to develop the ability to keep our mind on positive or useful states of mind or where we want our mind to be, rather than constantly being distracted, say by emails, passing moods, daydreams, etc. 

To find out more about our unique programme and how it can help you and your family business, please follow this link and download our brochure.

Alternatively, you can email us Russ@familybusinesspartnership.com

Copyright 2025 Russ Haworth and Martin Stepek

With Corona Virus impacting more and more businesses and people around World, I follow up our last episode with an interview with Martin Stepek.

Martin is a mindfulness coach and also a family business expert and so can offer unique insights into how to use mindfulness at times of extreme stress.

Martin's own family business went into administration in the early 2000's and he found that during that extremely difficult time he was able to use his mindfulness practice to help him through.

You can find out more about Martin at the following sites:

www.martinstepek.com

www.tenforzen.co.uk

Corona Virus is having a huge impact on the lives of us all. It is a scary time when we are fearful for our families health and well-being and our businesses.

Family businesses across the world will be trying to balance all of the conflicting priorities that exist and will need support to do so.

In this episode I offer guidance as to where to get advice, where to get support and some tips on remote working and remaining positive during this exceptionally difficult time.

The resources we mentioned in the episode are as follows:

https://www.ifb.org.uk/advice/for-owners/covid-19-guidance-for-businesses/

https://www.gov.uk/government/topical-events/coronavirus-covid-19-uk-government-response

https://www.familybizunited.com/coronavirus

You can email Fiona: Fiona.Graham@ifb.org.uk

As always you can contact me at russ@tfamilybusinesspartnership.com

Should You Hire A Website Designer or Design Your Website Yourself? 

In this podcast episode, we’re talking about family business websites. I’m chatting to Martin and Lyndsay, a husband and wife team, who run Jammy Digital - a WordPress Web Design Agency. 

A website isn’t just a ‘shop window’, it is a tool that can generate leads and sales 24/7. Unfortunately, a lot of family businesses don’t realise the potential of their websites, and they’re often left abandoned or under-utilised. 

In this episode, we tell you how you can use your website to its maximum potential. We discuss...

• When to spend money on a web designer 

Spending thousands on a website isn’t always the best option. In fact, Martin and Lyndsay recommend that you only invest in a website designer when you’re most likely to see a return on investment. In this episode, we discuss when to invest and when to build your own website. And the discussion may surprise you! 

• Mistakes that family businesses make with their websites 

There are some common mistakes family businesses make with their websites, which could have an impact on sales. Family business owners have a tendency to make their websites about them and their family, which is of course, important, however, this does mean that there’s a lack of focus on the potential customer. In this episode, we discuss the common mistakes family businesses make with their websites and how to fix them. 

• What to do if you’re on a budget with your website 

People often think they must spend thousands on a website in order to get good results, but often this is not the case. Actually, it’s the work you put into the website once it’s live that makes all the difference. So we also discuss what to do if you’re on a budget with your website and how you can still get the most out of it. 

• When to redesign your website 

A website redesign is time-consuming and costly, so you need to be careful about how often you do it. We also discuss how often you should redesign your website, or what you can do instead to see if you can increase leads and sales through your site. 

Resources

Kenda and Mike Macdonald own and run Automation Ninjas, a marketing automation business.

Their journey into ownership wasn't a straight forward one but they have created an award winning business that creates amazing customer journeys using buyer psychology and marketing automation.

In this showcase episode we discuss why your business may also benefit from understanding more about how your customers think.

You can connect with Kenda here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/the-marketing-automation-expert/

You can find their website here: https://www.automationninjas.com/

Over the course of this series on Governance we have covered a lot of different topics and so this episode brings the series to an end with a summary of all the different governance topics and how they all knit together.

Making the decision to implement any of these governance forums takes time and care and perseverance and so I discuss how to approach the discussions with your family.

As ever, please do not hesitate to contact me if I can be of any assistance russ@familybusinesspartnership.com

In this episode we look at Corporate Governance and in particular the Wates Principles.

The Wates Principles are a set of Corporate Governance principles that some large businesses need to report against. In this episode I discuss these principles and how they can be adapted and adopted by your Family Business.

I also look at some of the legal structures that can be put in place to protect the shareholders in the business should disputes arise or deadlocks appear in your voting.

You can find the Wates Principles here:

https://www.frc.org.uk/getattachment/31dfb844-6d4b-4093-9bfe-19cee2c29cda/Wates-Corporate-Governance-Principles-for-LPC-Dec-2018.pdf

As ever if you need any help with implementing these into your own business, I am here to help.

Email me Russ@familybusinesspartnership.com or find me on Linked In 'Russell Haworth' or @RussHaworth on Twitter.

The appointment of a Non-Executive Director is a key milestone in the evolution and professionalisation of a family business. They bring experience, expertise and an independent voice to your board meetings and they are there to challenge the executive directors, in a constructive way to help you push the business towards its strategic goals.

In this episode I cover who would be a good fit and who you should perhaps avoid and which characteristics and skills you would want them to bring to the party.

As with any of the topics covered on the show I am here to help. Email me at russ@familybusinesspartnership.com or head over to www.familybusinesspartnership.com to find out more.

As a family business grows the need for the right forums to be in place to discuss the important strategic goals of the business is really important.

Once such forum is the Board of Directors.

In this episode of the show I discuss when you would want to introduce a board to the family business, and how.

Who sits on the board, what are their responsibilities?

How many board members should there be and how are board meetings structured.

As with any of these issues, if I can be of any assistance to you and your family in introducing these forums or governance structures, please do not hesitate to get in touch russ@familybusinesspartnership.com

Continuing our look at Family Governance, in this episode I discuss the Family Assembly, or Retreat / meeting. 

I cover what they are, who attends them and what subjects are covered, along with some hints and tips as to how to get your own family meetings up and running.

We also look at how they interact with the other elements of Governance that we have been discussing over recent episodes.

As ever if you need any help putting any of this in place, please get in touch russ@familybusinesspartnership.com

Family Councils create a bridge between the business family and the family business board.

In this episode of the show I explain what a family council is, what roles and responsibilities they have and how you would typically elect members to the council.

I also cover the important role of the Chair of the family council, the skills they are likely to need and the way in which the Family Council interacts with the business and the family.

As ever if you would like any help with establishing your own Governance, please get in touch russ@familybusinesspartnership.com

THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS

The First Noble Truth: be aware that life brings with it many forms of dissatisfaction, frustration, irritation, and many levels of suffering.

The Second Noble Truth: recognise that these different types of suffering are produced by your mind, even if the apparent cause is external. The mind reacts negatively to life experiences that we didn’t want, and does the same when we don’t get things we were hoping for. The Buddha called these wants and dislikes “thirsts”. It is thirsts that cause unhappy states of mind.

The Third Noble Truth: we can learn to cultivate skills that stop our thirsts and thus end our various forms of suffering.

The Fourth Noble Truth: to cultivate these skills we have to follow a path that contains eight components, as follows.

THE EIGHTFOLD PATH

As with the word Noble above, the Eightfold Path uses a word that needs a little clarification. Each of the eight paths starts with the word Right. In this case it does not mean right as opposed to immoral, so it is not judgemental. Nor does it mean correct as opposed to wrong. It is best thought of as skilful or wise.

The four previous “paths”, covered in previous episodes, relate directly to how we live our lives - our thoughts and feelings, our communication with others, our decisions, and our working life. The next three are the methods or disciplines to use to ensure we do in fact learn to manage our wayward minds.

Right Effort: changing our volatile, conditioned mind doesn’t happen overnight. It took us our entire lifetime to date to become who we are today, so reversing and changing our mindset takes time. Therefore we need to work at it with effort. Again, the word right means skilful. Skilful effort means we don;’t slacken off or lapse, but nor do we exhaust ourselves in too zealous an effort.

To find out more about our unique programme and how it can help you and your family business, please follow this link and download our brochure.

Alternatively, you can email us Russ@familybusinesspartnership.com

Copyright 2025 Russ Haworth and Martin Stepek

The Family Charter is the cornerstone or foundation document of a family governance system. It is the bedrock on which everything else is built.

It is also known as a Family Constitution or agreement. It is the main document that the family use to outline their values and vision for the family business. 

Whilst rare they are gaining recognition and being adopted by many families. In this episode i explore why they are useful and how to get started with your own.

If you need help with this, please get in touch russ@familybusinesspartnership or visit www.familybusinesspartnership.com for more information.

Governance is a word that is often thrown around by the family business advisory community and with good reason.

However, it is often taken for granted what we mean by 'governance' and so to kick off this series on that very subject I thought it would be useful to provide an overview of what governance is. Why it is useful, some of the common barriers to putting governance in place and then some tips on how to get started.

You can find details of the Wates Principles mentioned in the show here: https://www.frc.org.uk/getattachment/31dfb844-6d4b-4093-9bfe-19cee2c29cda/Wates-Corporate-Governance-Principles-for-LPC-Dec-2018.pdf

You can also access the brilliant report from the IFB Research Foundation here: https://www.ifb.org.uk/media/4133/governance-in-family-businesses-evidence-and-implications_web.pdf

When the podcast started the intention was for it to become a valuable resource for family businesses around the world. I have a passion for providing useful content and support to family businesses and this is shared by the Institute for Family Business.

With this in mind we have agreed to collaborate with each other going forward.

The podcast is moving to a series based podcast with series on Governance, Succession, Family Dynamics and Family Business Theory.

I will still be interviewing selected experts from around the world and showcasing the brilliant work that family businesses around the world do.

Head over to ifb.org.uk to find out more about the great support that the IFB can provide you.

George and I headed along to the fourth Family Business Network conference in Carlisle.

It was a fantastic conference with great speakers and guests, I was also asked to record a live podcast and this is the result.

I interview George Bryan who grow up at Drayton Manor Park, listen to this episode if you want to hear his views on the transitions that he has witnessed and been part of and why Toto the chimpanzee doesn't like him very much!

You can find out more about the work of Sue and Dave at the Family Business Network by visiting their website here:

https://fambiznet.co.uk/

You can connect with George on Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/george-bryan-acfba-645b8a23/

You can also find out about his consultancy business by visiting www.thefbc.co.uk

Succession Planning (or continuity planning!) is such a broad topic and as such it can be intimidating and very easy to put off. In this episode I speak with Daniel Trimarchi and we break down the three core elements of succession / continuity planning in a family business. 

Daniel Trimarchi is a Senior Manager and Family Business specialist with KPMG, at the time of recording he was about to embark on a role with KPMG in Canada, but before he left we grabbed some time to discuss the three main elements of succession or continuity planning.  

Daniel can be found on Linked In here: www.linkedin.com/in/dtrimarchi

You can also find out more about the work of KPMG here:  www.kpmg.com/familybusiness

The Family Business sector in the UK contributes more than the annual budget for the NHS each year. Their importance cannot be under-stated and the IFB have produced a report that highlights the trends and challenges facing family businesses today. 

In this episode I speak to Fiona Graham of the Institute for Family Business about the findings in the report and what family businesses can learn from these findings. 

Fiona Graham is the IFB Director of External Affairs and Policy. She is responsible for leading the IFB’s government and media relations, and policy development. She has over a decade’s experience in policy and public affairs. Fiona also sits on the Government’s SME Advisory Board.

You can find the report here: www.ifb.org.uk 

You can get in touch with Fiona on Linked In here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fiona-graham-6b2a802a/

Steve's previous episode remains the most popular episode to date and so there is huge pressure on him delivering again in this show! 

Luckily he doesn't disappoint! In this interview I chat to Steve about the book he mentioned he was writing during our previous interview. The book is called Interdependent Wealth: How Family Systems Theory Illuminates Successful Intergenerational Wealth Transitions. 

The book builds on the Bowen Theory that Steve introduced us to before and looks at the actions that family's and their advisers can take to help with this transition. 

You can buy the book on Amazon by following the below links: 

UK - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Interdependent-Wealth-Illuminates-Intergenerational-Transitions/dp/1097309096/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Interdependent+Wealth&qid=1561498567&s=gateway&sr=8-1

US - https://www.amazon.com/Interdependent-Wealth-Illuminates-Intergenerational-Transitions/dp/1097309096/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Interdependent+Wealth&qid=1561498550&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Canada - https://www.amazon.ca/Interdependent-Wealth-Illuminates-Intergenerational-Transitions/dp/1097309096/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1HCXGWIAGSFQO&keywords=interdependent+wealth&qid=1561498535&s=gateway&sprefix=Interdepen%2Caps%2C200&sr=8-1

You can also find out more about Steve here: https://shiftyourfamilybusiness.com/ 

Each year The IFB hold a conference for Family Businesses and if you missed it, check out this episode to hear what the key points and takeaways were from the conference. 

We hear about the importance of cultivating culture and how family owned businesses are perfectly placed to create working cultures that attract and retain staff. 

Elizabeth Bagger is the IFB Director General. She joined the IFB in 2009 and, after having spent over seven years designing and running the IFB’s programme, she took over as Executive Director in 2016. Prior to that, Elizabeth spent three years working in international corporate governance and eight in her own family business in Denmark. 

You can find out more about The Institute for Family Business here: www.ifb.org.uk

You can connect with Elizabeth on Linked In here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabeth-bagger-3b91453/

One of the most common questions we are asked when considering the 'best' path for next generation family is whether or not they should seek experience outside of the family business. 

How do next gen go about seeking this experience and is there a danger that this will mean that they won't actually return to the family business. 

I chat to Andrew Keyt and address these questions in this episode. 

You can find out more about Andrew here: https://andrewkeyt.com/

or on Linked In here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-keyt-4b15b11/

Businesses need to take advice from experts to help them navigate the sometimes tricky areas of law, tax and financial services amongst others.  

Traditionally this may be through several different individual firms or  that everything goes through an individual trusted adviser who is seen as the 'gatekeeper'. But is this model fit for purpose?

Is there an alternative that is better aligned to your family's needs and your business needs? 

My guest this week thinks so! I discuss this with him on the weeks episode as we chat about the concept of Family Business Advice Teams. 

You can get in touch with Ken here: Ken@m-fbc.com or connect with him on Linked In here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kenmccracken62/

THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS

The First Noble Truth: be aware that life brings with it many forms of dissatisfaction, frustration, irritation, and many levels of suffering.

The Second Noble Truth: recognise that these different types of suffering are produced by your mind, even if the apparent cause is external. The mind reacts negatively to life experiences that we didn’t want, and does the same when we don’t get things we were hoping for. The Buddha called these wants and dislikes “thirsts”. It is thirsts that cause unhappy states of mind.

The Third Noble Truth: we can learn to cultivate skills that stop our thirsts and thus end our various forms of suffering.

The Fourth Noble Truth: to cultivate these skills we have to follow a path that contains eight components, as follows.

THE EIGHTFOLD PATH

As with the word Noble above, the Eightfold Path uses a word that needs a little clarification. Each of the eight paths starts with the word Right. In this case it does not mean right as opposed to immoral, so it is not judgemental. Nor does it mean correct as opposed to wrong. It is best thought of as skilful or wise.

Right Livelihood: this always astonishes me. 2500 years ago the Buddha was directly teaching rulers, employers, and employees how to work wisely. In particular he advised against doing work or careers which are inherently cruel or destructive, and if a person has no choice then they should make some amends by doing good in their spare time. This is what in recent years is now called CSR and ESG and “purpose-driven” but the Buddha taught it millennia ago and had a much stricter perspective than we have today.

To find out more about our unique programme and how it can help you and your family business, please follow this link and download our brochure.

Alternatively, you can email us Russ@familybusinesspartnership.com

Copyright 2025 Russ Haworth and Martin Stepek

Joshua Nacht is a consultant with The Family Business Consulting Group. 

His new book Family Champions and Champion Families he explores the value of family leaders in creating enduring business family success. We discuss this in this episode. 

The family champion is typically a family owner who acts as a catalyst to help other family members become more effective. In order to facilitate significant development and change throughout the family, family champions engage and inspire the family to work collectively to sustain their legacy.  Ultimately, family champions create champion families.

You can find out more about Joshua here: https://www.thefbcg.com/nacht/

and his book here: https://www.thefbcg.com/publications/family-champions/

There is a growing number of family offices across the world. But what are they and why would a family consider using one.  

In this episode I chat to Andra Ilie who works for a private or family office about the different roles that a family office can play and why they are becoming more and more popular. 

We look at the difference between single family and multi family offices and hear some practical examples from Andra. 

You can find out more about Andra here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andralilie/

And you can find out more about the private office that she works for here: https://www.knoxprivateoffice.com/ 

Tom McCullough along with Keith Whitaker have created a book and podcast series that focusses on the Top 50 Questions that wealthy families ask. 

Tom and Keith collaborated with some of the most respected advisers in the field of family business to create this fantastic resource. 

In this episode I chat with Tom about the process, some of the common areas that cause concern for business families and dig in to some of the key questions. 

You can find out more about the book here: https://wealthofwisdombook.com/

and the link to the podcast is here: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/wealth-of-wisdom/id1438693369 

Emily Griffiths-Hamilton is a Chartered Accountant, a Family Enterprise Advisor and a Conflict Resolution Coach who brings three generations of experience to the subject of wealth and family-business transition planning.

In this interview we chat about the Vancouver Canucks, the discussions Emily had with her family when she decided to leave the family business and we discuss her new book in which Emily outlines ways to ensure that your family enterprise thrives for generations. 

You can find out more about Emily and her work here: www.buildyourfamilybank.com

A link to her book is here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Your-Business-Family-Their-Future/dp/1773270532/ref=sr_1_1?crid=G46G8HZI5D8D&keywords=your+business+your+family+their+future&qid=1554380476&s=gateway&sprefix=Your+Business%2C+Your+%2Caps%2C630&sr=8-1 

Rochelle Clarke, global strategist and business succession expert, helps family businesses overcome barriers to succession transitions. With nearly 20 years of professional experience, Rochelle combines a variety of best practices and practical solutions to balance strategic thinking and operational practicality for businesses of all sizes.

Succession Strength was founded by Global Strategist and Business Succession Expert, Rochelle Clarke. With an MBA from The Wharton School of Business and experience working for international businesses including Fortune 500 companies like Accenture, IBM, and Heineken, Rochelle brings about 20 years of experience to Succession Strength. She and her team of business experts including an organizational psychologist guide family businesses through the communication, preparation and execution phases of their business transitions.

We had great fun recording this episode and we discussed how expectations are managed during those sometimes difficult discussions around succession. 

You can find out more about Rochelle here: https://successionstrength.com/

On twitter: @SuccessionStre1

Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rochelleclarke/

The word disruption can have negative connotations, it can make you feel uncomfortable and wary. But, it can also be an opportunity to change, an opportunity to pivot and embrace change. 

In this episode we speak with Prof. John A Davis on MIT Sloan bout his new role, what his research on disruption shows and how firms can adapt to this. 

We also discuss the impact of increased longevity on family firms and tips to help. 

We also chat to John about what he means when he says that family business members should adopt an 'Owners Mindset. 

You can find out more about John and his work here: 

www.johndavis.com

https://twitter.com/ProfJohnDavis on Twitter and;

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-davis-61aab322/ on Linked In.

You can also find our more about the programs that John talks about here: 

Future Family Enterprise Program

May 5-10, 2019

(For 2nd generation-controlled businesses or later)

The Future Family Enterprise program leads multigenerational families through a stimulating week-long conversation that produces clarity on the path ahead for each participating family and its enterprise. Your family will learn practical concepts and tested practices—organized around examples of multigenerational success and failure—to aid your thinking, improve your long-term planning and alignment, and shape the roadmap of your family enterprise system.

Founder to Family Program

July 22-26, 2019

(For 1st generation-controlled businesses only)

Successful founder–stage businesses are enviable powerhouses in many ways, but they face unique and complex challenges as they transition to the second generation of sibling owners and leaders. Given the role of the founder and the nature of sibling relationships, these first–to–second generation transitions are often complicated and emotionally sensitive experiences. They need to be pragmatically designed and sensitively implemented for the survival of the business and the unity of the family. This program explores the crucial issues, useful strategies, necessary planning, and pivotal conversations required to implement an effective handoff to the second generation—and to shape a meaningful future role for the founder.

Timpson is one of the most recognised names on the UK High Street and Sir John Timpson, as Chairman of the business founded by his great grandfather chats to us about the management style adopted at the businesses over 2,000 branches. 

In this interview I chat to Sir John about the history of the business, the fantastic culture that has been created and the challenges that were faced in convincing management that it was a good idea. 

We also talk about Sir John and his late wife, Alex. They fostered over 90 children and we discuss the synergies between the environment that he and Alex created for the children they looked after and the one created within the business.

My parents fostered children when I was young so I understand the huge amount of dedication needed to do this. I have made a modest donation to The Alex Timpson Trust and would be delighted if you were able to join me. The link to make a donation is below: 

https://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/donation-web/charity?charityId=1013855&stop_mobi=yes

Caroline Gourlay is an independent Business Psychologist. Since qualifying in 1997 she has worked with a diverse range of organisations in the public and private sectors, either directly or as an associate of larger consultancies.

In this episode we discuss the pitfalls that can impact on leadership and how to avoid these pitfalls. 

Some of these are specific to family business others are more general pitfalls that seem to impact on most businesses and Caroline offers some fantastic tips and practical solutions to these pitfalls. 

You can find out more about Caroline here: http://carolinegourlay.co.uk/index.php

You can follow her on Twitter here: @CarolineGourlay

Linked In here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caroline-gourlay/

The blogs that we reference are here: https://carolinegourlay.wordpress.com/2017/06/28/six-pitfalls-of-family-business-leadership/

and here: https://carolinegourlay.wordpress.com/2014/03/31/so-youre-a-leader-what-do-you-actually-do/ 

Here in the UK there are some new rules coming into force in January that are primarily aimed at large privately owned businesses. 

This will include many family owned businesses and so we speak to Matt Timmons and Suzi Woolfson from PwC about what these changes are and what they mean for your business. 

If you are a smaller business that isn't affected, or based outside the UK it is still worth a listen as these rules seem to be encouraging transparency and other measures that could be adopted by most if not all businesses as part of their corporate and family governance. 

You can find out more about the new rules here: https://www.pwc.co.uk/private-business-private-clients/insights/corporate-governance-time-to-act.html

And you can follow Suzi on Twitter here: @SuziLDavis

You can follow Matt on Twitter here: @MatthewTimmons7

No business remains the same after a 100-year journey. Every long-lasting family enterprise learns how to navigate developmental and business crises as it crosses generations.

Dennis' paper presents the business journeys of the nearly 100 long-lasting families in our study.

Their resilience stems from continual innovation and transformation. We look at their major transformations—harvesting, pruning, diversifying and grounding—and at how the family is able to build an adaptive, sustainable culture.

This was an interview originally recorded for The FFI who have very kindly allowed me to use it here - enjoy! 

You can find out more about Dennis' work here: http://dennisjaffe.com/

And you can buy a copy of the study here: http://dennisjaffe.com/publications/

THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS

The First Noble Truth: be aware that life brings with it many forms of dissatisfaction, frustration, irritation, and many levels of suffering.

The Second Noble Truth: recognise that these different types of suffering are produced by your mind, even if the apparent cause is external. The mind reacts negatively to life experiences that we didn’t want, and does the same when we don’t get things we were hoping for. The Buddha called these wants and dislikes “thirsts”. It is thirsts that cause unhappy states of mind.

The Third Noble Truth: we can learn to cultivate skills that stop our thirsts and thus end our various forms of suffering.

The Fourth Noble Truth: to cultivate these skills we have to follow a path that contains eight components, as follows.

THE EIGHTFOLD PATH

As with the word Noble above, the Eightfold Path uses a word that needs a little clarification. Each of the eight paths starts with the word Right. In this case it does not mean right as opposed to immoral, so it is not judgemental. Nor does it mean correct as opposed to wrong. It is best thought of as skilful or wise.

Right Actions: what we do should be skilful, positive, kindly, and considerate of all involved.

To find out more about our unique programme and how it can help you and your family business, please follow this link and download our brochure.

Alternatively, you can email us Russ@familybusinesspartnership.com

Copyright 2025 Russ Haworth and Martin Stepek

There are lots and lots of articles and websites that rightly highlight the huge positives of working with your family, but very often we hear from people who are feeling trapped and isolated within the family business. 

Michael is the founder of MK Insights, LLC and has 17+ years of experience as a consultant, assessment specialist, business coach, and facilitator. 

In his book 'Trapped in the Family Business' Michael shares experiences of those family members he has worked with that feel trapped in the business and offers solutions to them. 

Feeling trapped can be turned into a positive and we discuss how in this insightful and informative episode. 

You can find out more about Michael and his book here: 

http://trappedinthefamilybusiness.com/

michael@trappedinthefamilybusiness.com

Professor John A. Davis, FFI Fellow, is a pioneer in the family enterprise field and a globally recognised authority on family enterprise, family wealth and family office topics. He has created some of the most impactful concepts and frameworks used in the field.

In 2018, he joined the MIT Sloan School of Management faculty to build an innovative portfolio of family enterprise programs, after leading the family enterprise area at Harvard Business School for more than 20 years. He is also the founder and chairman of Cambridge Family Enterprise Group, where he advises some of world’s leading enterprising families.

He is the recipient of the 2016 Richard Beckhard Practice Award.

The Model is now 40 years old and we discuss what it is, how it can be used by families and their advisers and what future trends John sees within the world of Family Business! 

It was a real honour to speak to John, and his knowledge, as you would expect, is exceptional. I am sure you will love this episode and if you want to get in touch with John he can be found:

Twitter: @ProfJohnDavis 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-davis-61aab322/

John's website is: www.johndavis.com

Link to Bivalent Attributes of the Family Firm: https://www.sehity.com/uploads/4/2/2/4/42243697/1.pdf 

We often hear that family businesses can feel isolated as they do not have a support network or peers that they can speak to.

The Family Business Network is a support network in Cumbria, Lancashire and now Yorkshire providing family businesses with a safe space to share their challenges. We speak to Sue Howorth and Dave Clarkson to hear about what support is available.

We discuss the importance of a network that can support families on a business and individual level. 

The use of Insight and Fishbowl events to share experiences and the growing Family Business Conference held in October in Kendal. 

You can find out more about the network here: http://fambiznet.co.uk/

You can follow Sue on Twitter here: @sue_howorth

The Family Business Network here: @Fambiznet

Dave here: @DSC_Langleys 

Ellie Frey Zagel is 3rd Generation, Vice Chair and Trustee of her family’s foundation the Frey Foundation based in Grand Rapids, MI.  

For nearly a decade she has been deeply involved in working with the next generation of family business, family philanthropy, and family wealth, first as Director of the Family Business Alliance and now as President of Successful Generations, a company she recently founded.

We talk about the importance of raising financially responsible children and the work that she is doing with her own business and podcast series. 

You can find out more about Ellie here: https://successfulgenerations.com/about/

She is also on Twitter: @EllieFreyZagel

Her podcast can be found here and is excellent!

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/successful-generations/id1315142236?mt=2

She is also on Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ellie-frey-zagel-94762815/ 

Greg McCann is the founder, principal and leader of an international family enterprise consulting firm that create workshops, consults, publishes, and innovates on issues of importance to family enterprises.

In this episode we draw on Greg's expertise and discuss Vertical Leadership and how we define success. 

We talk about why 'knowing more' is not enough for leaders in the modern world. 

We discuss exponential change and the impact that this is going to have on businesses. 

You can find out more about Greg here: http://greg-mccann.com/

Natalie McVeigh is an expert in Leadership Development, she is both a practitioner and a member of the Family Firm Institute Faculty. 

In this episode we discuss the use of assessments in helping to develop leaders within the Family Business. 

Natalie speaks to us about acumen, about where to start when looking at assessments, the role culture plays in a business and clarifies that these are assessments and not tests! 

We talk about attitude versus aptitude and the fact that data tells a story. 

We also look at the role of the coaches and mentors 

You can find Natalie on Linked In here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliemcveigh/

You can find Natalie on Twitter here: @NMM_10

Dov Baron has twice been cited as one of Inc. Magazine’s Top 100 Leadership Speakers to hire.

He is a master storyteller, who has had the honour of presenting for The World Business Conference in Tehran as well as speaking for the State Department, and The United Nations on Leadership.

He is considered by many as the leading authority on Authentic Leadership, and the founder of Full Monty Leadership and The Authentic Speaker Academy for Leadership.

Dov is also a bestselling author of several books. His latest book is Fiercely Loyal; How High Performing Companies Develop and Retain Top Talent. 

We chat to Dov about leadership and loyalty in the family business, how we can go about finding our own true meaning and purpose. 

You can find Dov on Linked In here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dovbaron/

You can follow him on twitter here: @TheDovBaron

You can find out more about his business here: http://fullmontyleadership.com/

Ramia is the co-founder of Orbis Terra Media, the Editor-in-Chief of Tharawat Magazine, a fellow podcast host and all round family business champion. We chat to her about the incredible resources that her and her family have created.

We discuss the Tharawat Family Business Forum, Women in Family Business as well as digitalisation, trends in family business from around the world. 

You can find out more about Tharawat Magazine here: https://www.tharawat-magazine.com/ 

You can follow them on Twitter here: @TharawatMag 

You can follow Ramia on Twitter here: @RamiaEl 

You can connect with her on Linked In here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramia-marielle-el-agamy-2561172/

You can listen to their excellent podcast here: 

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-family-business-podcast/id1254419214?mt=2 

In  2008 Howard escaped from Grant Thornton UK LLP, where he had been a partner for over 25 years, to establish his own boutique practice.

We speak to Howard about his experiences of succession planning, the good the bad and the ugly. 

We also discuss how to start the process of choosing a successor and the characteristics that Howard used in his days on the selection team for Partners at Grant Thornton. 

We ask the question of what to do if there is no one within the family who is willing to take the business on. 

You can get in touch with Howard on Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/howard-hackney-9301b814/

On Twitter: @HowardHackney

Or his website is: http://www.howardhackney.co.uk/ 

Ovation Finance are a firm of financial planners in Bristol. It was set up by Chris Budd and has very recently been sold to an Employee Ownership Trust. 

Chris talks to us about the steps that he took in order to prepare for this transition. This includes the four elements of the eternal pyramid and also the personal challenges that he faced. 

When considering succession planning an Employee Ownership Trust may not be something that immediately springs to mind but in this episode we look at the features, benefits and drawbacks of this option. 

Chris now works as a consultant helping other businesses with the process of employee onwership and you can get in touch with him on Twitter: @ovationchris

His website is http://www.ovationfinance.co.uk/

THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS

The First Noble Truth: be aware that life brings with it many forms of dissatisfaction, frustration, irritation, and many levels of suffering.

The Second Noble Truth: recognise that these different types of suffering are produced by your mind, even if the apparent cause is external. The mind reacts negatively to life experiences that we didn’t want, and does the same when we don’t get things we were hoping for. The Buddha called these wants and dislikes “thirsts”. It is thirsts that cause unhappy states of mind.

The Third Noble Truth: we can learn to cultivate skills that stop our thirsts and thus end our various forms of suffering.

The Fourth Noble Truth: to cultivate these skills we have to follow a path that contains eight components, as follows.

THE EIGHTFOLD PATH

As with the word Noble above, the Eightfold Path uses a word that needs a little clarification. Each of the eight paths starts with the word Right. In this case it does not mean right as opposed to immoral, so it is not judgemental. Nor does it mean correct as opposed to wrong. It is best thought of as skilful or wise.

Right Speech or Communications: we not only have to control and skilfully manage our thoughts and our intentions or goals; we also have to ensure that when we communicate these - whether by voice, email, on social media, or even body language - our words and gestures too are thoughtful, wise, and as constructive as possible.

To find out more about our unique programme and how it can help you and your family business, please follow this link and download our brochure.

Alternatively, you can email us Russ@familybusinesspartnership.com

Copyright 2025 Russ Haworth and Martin Stepek

Ian Marsh returns to the show for a second time following his previous discussion on episode 5 about the importance of communication. 

We build on that in this episode and discuss the fascinating topics he covers in his new book 'If it is so good to talk, why is it so hard?' 

We discuss why people put off important conversations, particularly with their families and what we can do to improve the conversations we are having. 

We ask what the benefits might be of daydreaming and whether it is possible to measure good communication. 

You can buy Ian's book here: http://good2talk.online/ 

You can follow Ian on Twitter: @IanAMarsh 

and connect on Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iamarsh/

We first met Jonathan at the FBU Conference. We had a brief chat following his presentation and during that chat I cheekily asked for a full episode and I am really pleased to say that Jonathan has agreed to a full interview. 

In this chat we discuss the importance of culture, the positive impact this can have on the family business and also how every business should do more to improve their local community. 

Jonathan speaks passionately about the family business and his enthusiasm is infectious. We speak about how he went into the loft at home as a child only to be confronted with an Alien head! We also chat about the time his grandfather was asked to paint a pig!! 

You can find out more about HMG Paint at www.hmgpaint.co.uk and can find them on twitter @HMGPaint 

We speak with Elle Hansen, Mairi Mickel and Jim Hutcheson about the particular challenges facing family business founders when it comes to succession planning. 

Elle and Jim work at Regeneration Partners in Dallas, Texas and Mairi is a Family Business Consultant with her own business based in Scotland. We all got together on a Friday morning in a basement flat in London to chat over a coffee about this subject matter. 

We look at the challenges facing founders and the fact that the 'founder' may not always be the person who set the business up. It could be the person responsible for a period of significant growth or change within the family business. 

It was a really enjoyable chat and the fact that it was face to face comes across in the interview.  

You can find out more about Elle on Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elle-hansen-58b4302/

Mairi is on Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mairimickel/

and on Twitter: @MairiMickel

You can find our more about Jim Here: http://familybusinessregeneration.com/about/our-team/james-olan-hutcheson/ 

and Regeneration Partners Here: http://familybusinessregeneration.com/

They are also on Twitter: @RegenPartners and FaceBook: https://www.facebook.com/ReGENPartners/