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Angela Harger Thompson joins us for part one of a deeply honest, unexpectedly funny, and powerful conversation about survival, trauma, and reclaiming the right to tell your own story.

Angela is an actor, filmmaker, and author of the new memoir Worst Tits Ever. In this first installment, she shares the experiences that divided her life into a before and an after—including being drugged and sexually assaulted, navigating the confusing realities of an abusive relationship, and eventually finding herself trapped on a boat with a man she increasingly understood she was not safe with.

Together, we explore how difficult it can be to recognize abuse while living inside it, the ways trauma can alter our perception of ourselves, and the shame and silence that so often keep survivors from speaking openly about what happened to them. Angela also discusses why she chose to tell her story with such vulnerability, candor, and humor.

This conversation is also an early glimpse of what’s ahead with our new podcast, This Is Who We Become—the natural next chapter of The Deconstructionists after we stop producing new episodes at the end of this year.

Every life has a before. Every life has an after.

This Is Who We Become will feature conversations with survivors, scientists, physicians, explorers, and ordinary people whose lives were transformed by extraordinary experiences. Visit thisiswhowebecome.com and join the mailing list to receive guest announcements, release dates, trailer news, and other updates as we prepare to launch.

Please consider sharing the website with someone who might connect with these stories. The larger we can grow this community before launch, the stronger this next chapter will be.

Content warning: This episode includes discussions of sexual assault, drugging, abusive relationships, coercive control, and trauma. Please take care of yourself while listening.

In Part One:

• Angela’s decision to write Worst Tits Ever
• Using humor to communicate painful experiences
• Being drugged and sexually assaulted
• The confusion, shame, and self-questioning that can follow trauma
• How abusive relationships gradually distort a person’s sense of what is normal
• Recognizing danger while living inside a controlling relationship
• The importance of survivors telling their stories in their own words

Learn more:

• Order Worst Tits Ever wherever books are sold
• Follow Angela Harger Thompson and learn more about her work

Join the This Is Who We Become mailing list at thisiswhowebecome.com

Special music provided by Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.

If you or someone you know has experienced sexual violence, confidential support is available through the RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800-656-HOPE (4673) or rainn.org.

In Part Two of our conversation with Dr. Janet Kellogg, we explore the growing loss of trust in medicine and science—and what happens when that distrust opens the door to misinformation.

From unsupported claims connecting Tylenol to autism to the broader consequences of rejecting medical expertise, we examine why these ideas gain traction, how fear can travel faster than evidence, and why simply telling people they’re wrong rarely rebuilds trust.

We also discuss the need to hold institutions accountable for genuine failures without abandoning science altogether—and what honesty, humility, and transparency might contribute to restoring public confidence.

New Podcast Coming Soon!

Our new podcast, This Is Who We Become, explores the moments that divide a life into “before” and “after”—and the people we become because of them.

Visit https://thisiswhowebecome.com and join the mailing list for upcoming guest announcements, launch updates, and more.

Connect with The Deconstructionists:

Website: https://thedeconstructionists.com

What if accepting evolution didn’t require abandoning faith?

Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray returns to The Deconstructionists to talk about her new book, Fish with Feet: Human Evolution and the Image of God.

Janet is a science educator, author, and Jesus follower who was herself raised within creationism. In her latest book, she tackles one of the most persistent points of tension between modern science and certain expressions of Christianity: human evolution.

In Part One of our conversation, we dig into the remarkable story of how life developed on Earth and eventually produced us—from our ancient aquatic ancestors to primates, early humans, and Homo sapiens. Along the way, Janet helps unpack some of the evidence for evolution found in fossils, anatomy, genetics, and even the strange imperfections built into our own bodies.

We also explore why human evolution remains particularly difficult for many Christians to accept, why familiar objections like “If humans evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?” misunderstand how evolution actually works, and what happens when the scientific evidence appears to conflict with the way we were taught to read Scripture.

And underneath it all is a much bigger question:

If human beings are part of the evolutionary story of life on Earth, what does it actually mean to say that we are made in the image of God?

That’s where things get really interesting.

This is Part One of our conversation with Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray.

Fish with Feet: Human Evolution and the Image of God is available from Eerdmans Publishing and wherever books are sold.

After more than ten years of conversations about faith, doubt, theology, identity, and the questions that reshape us, The Deconstructionists is entering its final chapter.

In this special update, John reflects on how the show began, the philosophy that guided it, what has changed in the deconstruction space over the past decade, and why the time feels right to bring the weekly podcast to a close at the end of 2026.

But this isn’t goodbye just yet.

There are still new guests and conversations ahead, the full archive will remain available, and the door will always be open for future special episodes.

John also introduces what comes next: Who We Become, a new podcast exploring the moments that divide our lives into before and after — and the people we become on the other side.

Learn more and join the mailing list at thisiswhowebecome.com.

What does it really mean to be present with another person?

In Part Two of John's conversation with Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, the discussion moves beyond defining modern chaplaincy and into the heart of spiritual care itself.

Rather than offering easy answers or trying to fix people's pain, today's chaplains often practice something much more difficult: accompanying people through uncertainty, grief, trauma, and profound life transitions. In a culture that values certainty, productivity, and quick solutions, this conversation explores the transformative power of simply showing up.

Rev. Sally shares how contemporary chaplains understand their work—not as experts dispensing wisdom, but as compassionate companions helping people navigate some of life's most sacred and challenging moments.

Together, John and Rev. Sally discuss:

• Why presence can be more powerful than having the right words.
• What chaplains can teach all of us about listening.
• The role of empathy, curiosity, and accompaniment in spiritual care.
• How grief, suffering, and meaning intersect.
• Why human connection is becoming increasingly valuable in an age shaped by technology and AI.
• What it looks like to care for people across different faiths, beliefs, and worldviews.
• How we can all become better companions to those who are hurting.
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Whether you're a person of faith, someone deconstructing long-held beliefs, or simply interested in becoming more present for the people around you, this conversation offers practical wisdom and a hopeful vision of what compassionate care can look like.

Guest:

Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, MDiv, MA (DMin candidate), is a Board Certified Chaplain (APC), an ACPE Certified Educator, and Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at The Johns Hopkins Hospital. She is the author of the forthcoming New Images of Spiritual Care, which highlights the diverse voices and innovative practices shaping contemporary chaplaincy.

If you enjoyed this conversation, we'd love your support. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, leave a rating or review, and share this episode with someone who might find it meaningful.

Follow us on social media for episode clips, behind-the-scenes content, and updates on upcoming conversations exploring faith, doubt, history, psychology, and what it means to be human.

What comes to mind when you hear the word "chaplain"?

For many of us, it's an older Christian minister carrying a Bible into a hospital room to pray with patients. But what if that image no longer reflects the reality of modern spiritual care?

In Part One of this conversation, John sits down with Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, board-certified chaplain, ACPE Certified Educator, and Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at Johns Hopkins Hospital, to explore how chaplaincy has transformed over the past several decades.

Today's chaplains come from an extraordinary range of religious and philosophical traditions—including Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Humanism, Unitarian Universalism, and more. Rather than focusing on converting people or providing religious answers, modern spiritual care emphasizes presence, curiosity, accompaniment, and compassionate listening during life's most vulnerable moments.

Together, John and Rev. Sally discuss:

• Why most of us have an outdated picture of what a chaplain is.
• The fascinating history and evolution of chaplaincy.
• What board-certified chaplains actually do.
• Why spiritual care is about far more than religion.
• How hospitals care for patients with widely different beliefs and worldviews.
• The shift from authority and hierarchy toward relationship and mutuality.
• Why "being present" can sometimes be more healing than having the right answers.

Whether you're deeply religious, spiritually curious, deconstructing your faith, or simply interested in what it means to care well for another human being, this conversation offers a fresh perspective on one of the most misunderstood professions in healthcare.

Guest:

Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, MDiv, MA (DMin candidate) is a Board Certified Chaplain (APC), an ACPE Certified Educator, and serves as Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at The Johns Hopkins Hospital. She is currently writing New Images of Spiritual Care, a book exploring the diverse voices and evolving practices shaping modern chaplaincy.

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a friend. Your support helps more people discover thoughtful conversations about faith, doubt, spirituality, history, and the questions that matter most.

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Website: www.thedecontructionists.org

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What if one of the Bible's most famous stories isn't really about a hero and a villain?

For centuries, many of us have been taught to read the story of Jacob and Esau through a familiar lens: Jacob, despite his flaws, is God's chosen son, while Esau becomes little more than the cautionary tale of the brother who "despised his birthright." But what happens when we slow down, revisit the text, and listen to voices from within the Jewish tradition?

In this episode of The Deconstructionists, John explores one of Genesis' most fascinating—and misunderstood—relationships. Drawing on insights from Rabbi Jonathan Sacks in Essays on Ethics and Not in God's Name, as well as reflections from Rabbi David Wolpe, this conversation examines how the story of Jacob and Esau challenges simplistic readings of Scripture and invites us into a richer understanding of reconciliation, identity, and what it means to become fully human.

Rather than reading Genesis as a collection of moral fables with obvious heroes and villains, we consider the possibility that the biblical authors were doing something far more profound: exposing the cycles of sibling rivalry, fear, favoritism, and violence that have echoed throughout human history.

Along the way, we explore why Jacob spends so much of his life wrestling—not only with God, but with himself—and why his eventual reunion with Esau may be one of the most emotionally powerful moments in all of Scripture.

Could it be that the real transformation wasn't simply Jacob becoming Israel... but two brothers finally seeing one another clearly?

• Why Jacob and Esau are far more complex than they're often portrayed
• The ancient Near Eastern world behind the Genesis narrative
• Why Jewish interpretations often differ from traditional Christian readings
• What Rabbi Jonathan Sacks means when he argues that Genesis repeatedly challenges sibling rivalry
• How Not in God's Name reframes stories of election and chosenness
• The surprising significance of Jacob's wrestling match before meeting Esau
• Why Jacob sends gifts ahead of himself—and whether they are simply a bribe or something deeper
• Rabbi David Wolpe's reflection on mirrors in the ancient world, and how Jacob and Esau may have seen themselves in one another after decades apart
• The emotional power of forgiveness and reconciliation in Genesis 33
• What Jacob and Esau still have to teach us about family, conflict, identity, and grace today

• Rabbi Jonathan Sacks — Essays on Ethics
• Rabbi Jonathan Sacks — Not in God's Name: Confronting Religious Violence
• Additional insights discussed from the teachings of Rabbi David Wolpe

• Was Jacob always intended to be understood as the hero of this story?
• What does it really mean to be "chosen" in Genesis?
• Why does the Bible spend so much time telling stories about rival siblings?
• What changes when we read Genesis through the lens of Jewish scholarship?
• Is reconciliation ever possible without first confronting who we've become? 

Like the music? Check out Forrest Clay anywhere you find your music! The song featured on this episode is "Does God" off his Recover EP.

Love the work we're doing?! Support us by joining the Patreon family here: https://www.patreon.com/c/thedeconstructionistspodcast/membership

Stay up on all things Deconstructionists here: www.thedeconstructionists.org

In Part 2 of our conversation with grief coach, author, and podcaster Shelby Forsythia, we dive deeper into her brand-new book, Of Course I'm Here Right Now.

Most of us want to help when someone we love is grieving. The problem is that we've never been taught how. Instead, we fall back on clichés, platitudes, and well-meaning advice that often leaves grieving people feeling even more isolated.

Shelby argues that what grieving people need most isn't fixing, solving, or explaining. They need presence.

In this episode, we explore why grief makes people uncomfortable, how our culture's lack of grief literacy creates secondary losses, and the surprisingly simple phrases that can help someone feel seen and supported during life's hardest moments.

Whether you've experienced profound loss yourself or want to be a better support for someone who has, this conversation offers practical wisdom, compassion, and a fresh way of understanding grief.

• Why grief isn't a problem to solve
• The hidden ways people become isolated after loss
• What NOT to say to someone who is grieving
• Why "at least..." statements often do more harm than good
• The difference between helping and fixing
• How grief changes friendships and relationships
• The role of presence versus advice
• The importance of grief literacy in modern culture
• Practical phrases anyone can use to support a grieving friend
• What inspired Shelby to write Of Course I'm Here Right Now
• Why grief can become one of life's greatest teachers

Shelby Forsythia is a grief coach, author, podcast host, and founder of Life After Loss Academy. After losing her mother at a young age, she became what she calls a "student of grief," dedicating her work to helping people navigate life after devastating loss. She is the author of Permission to Grieve, Your Grief, Your Way, and her newest book, Of Course I'm Here Right Now: Three Actually Helpful Things to Say to Someone Grieving.

• Website: Shelby Forsythia Official Website
• Book: Of Course I'm Here Right Now
• Podcast: Coming Back Podcast Archive

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What happens when grief changes not just your life… but your identity?

In part one of this conversation, John sits down with author, grief guide, and speaker Shelby Forsythia to discuss her new book and the complicated, deeply human realities of loss, healing, and personal transformation.

Together, they explore the myths we inherit about grief, why so many people feel pressure to “move on” too quickly, and how grief can quietly reshape our relationships, spirituality, and sense of self. Rather than offering clichés or easy answers, Shelby approaches grief with honesty, compassion, and a willingness to sit with uncertainty — something longtime listeners of The Deconstructionists will likely find familiar.

Topics include:

• Why grief is not a linear process
• The cultural pressure to “get over” loss
• How grief impacts identity and spirituality
• Emotional honesty versus performative healing
• Why many people feel isolated in their pain
• The connection between grief and personal growth
• Learning to live alongside loss rather than “defeating” it

Shelby’s work offers a compassionate alternative to the toxic positivity and oversimplified narratives that often surround grief conversations.

If this conversation resonates with you, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with someone who may need it.

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What if one of the most influential ideas in modern Christianity… didn’t actually come from Jesus?

In this episode of The Deconstructionists Podcast, we explore the history and impact of dualism — the ancient belief that spirit is good while matter, bodies, and the physical world are somehow lesser, corrupt, or evil.

From Plato and Greek philosophy to Gnosticism and modern evangelical culture, we trace how dualistic thinking quietly shaped theology, sexuality, purity culture, views of the body, the afterlife, politics, and even the way many Christians understand salvation itself.

We ask questions like:

• Why have so many Christians viewed the body with suspicion?
• Did the Bible actually teach a sharp divide between “spiritual” and “physical”?
• How did Greek philosophy influence early Christianity?
• Why do some forms of Christianity focus so heavily on “escaping the world”?
• What happens when faith becomes disconnected from embodiment, justice, and humanity?
• And what might a more holistic, integrated spirituality look like?

Along the way, we discuss:

• Plato and the influence of Greek metaphysics
• Gnosticism and the material/spiritual divide
• The Hebrew understanding of embodied humanity
• Paul’s writings and common misunderstandings about “flesh”
• Heaven, resurrection, and the renewal of creation
• Purity culture and body shame
• The lasting influence of dualism on modern evangelicalism
• Deconstruction, embodiment, and recovering wholeness

This conversation explores how ideas developed historically — and how those ideas still shape people’s lives today, often in ways they don’t even realize.

Whether you come from an evangelical background, are in the middle of deconstruction, or are simply interested in theology, philosophy, and history, this episode offers a deeper look at one of the hidden frameworks underneath modern Christianity.

• Dualism in Christianity
• Plato and Greek philosophy
• Gnosticism
• Embodiment and spirituality
• Resurrection theology
• Purity culture
• Biblical anthropology
• Evangelical theology
• Deconstruction and reconstruction
• Mind/body divide
• Spiritual formation

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In Part 2 of our conversation, Bart Ehrman returns to discuss his latest book, Love Thy Stranger, and the lasting impact Jesus’ teachings had on moral thought in the Western world.

We continue exploring how ideas surrounding compassion, forgiveness, charity, and care for outsiders emerged within early Christianity — while also wrestling with the ways institutions and political movements have often failed to embody those same values.

In this episode we discuss:

• The tension between the teachings of Jesus and modern political Christianity
• Immigration, nationalism, and “loving your neighbor”
• How moral frameworks evolve over time
• The role Christianity played in shaping Western ethics
• Historical misunderstandings about the ancient world
• Why empathy and human dignity remain central themes in Jesus’ message

Be sure to check out Dr. Ehrman’s new book, Love Thy Stranger, available now wherever books are sold.

Bart Ehrman is a New Testament scholar, historian of early Christianity, and the author of numerous bestselling books including Misquoting Jesus, Heaven and Hell, Jesus Interrupted, and How Jesus Became God. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

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More info at: www.thedeconstructionsts.org

In Part 1 of our conversation with renowned New Testament scholar and historian Dr. Bart Ehrman, we dive into his latest book, "Love Thy Stranger: How the Teachings of Jesus Transformed the Moral Conscience of the West".

For centuries, people have debated whether Christianity has been a force for compassion or division. But what if one of the most radical moral ideas in human history came directly from the teachings of Jesus himself?

In this episode, Bart explores how concepts like caring for the poor, loving enemies, and extending compassion beyond one’s tribe were not common moral assumptions in the ancient world—and how the teachings attributed to Jesus helped reshape Western moral imagination over time.

We also discuss:

• What morality looked like in the ancient Greco-Roman world
• Why compassion was often viewed as weakness in antiquity
• The historical context surrounding Jesus’ teachings
• The difference between Jesus’ message and later Christian institutions
• Whether modern secular morality still carries the fingerprints of Christianity
• Why many people misunderstand the historical Jesus
• The tension between the teachings of Jesus and modern Christian nationalism
• How history complicates simplistic narratives about religion’s role in society

As always, this conversation approaches faith, history, and culture through the lens of scholarship, curiosity, and honest dialogue.

Dr. Bart Ehrman is one of the world’s leading scholars on the New Testament and early Christianity. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the author of numerous bestselling books including:

• "Misquoting Jesus"
• "Jesus, Interrupted"
• "Heaven and Hell"
• "Armageddon"

His work focuses on the historical Jesus, the development of early Christianity, biblical manuscripts, and how religious ideas evolve over time.

If you enjoy conversations like this and want to help support independent podcasts and educational content, there are several great ways to support the show:

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Website: https://www.thedeconstructionists.org

Official Website: https://www.bartehrman.com

Books & Courses: https://www.bartehrman.com/books/

Blog: https://ehrmanblog.org

Thank you for listening to The Deconstructionists Podcast.

Part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Bart Ehrman will be available soon.

In Part 2 of our conversation with Lillian Daniel, we move deeper into the tensions at the heart of her story—and the bigger questions it raises for the modern church.

If Part 1 explored what happened, this episode asks what it means.

We talk about accountability, institutional systems, and whether the church is actually capable of handling failure in a way that leads to healing rather than harm.

📚 About Lillian Daniel

Lillian Daniel is an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ and currently serves as a Conference Minister, overseeing churches and clergy across Michigan.

She has taught preaching at institutions including Yale Divinity School and the University of Chicago, and is the author of multiple books on faith, ministry, and the evolving role of the church.

Her latest book, Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church, explores her own experience with discipline, failure, and restoration—and what it reveals about the systems meant to hold leaders accountable.

🔗 Stay Connected

• Website: https://www.thedeconstructionists.org

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• Follow along for more conversations with scholars, authors, and thinkers exploring faith, doubt, and everything in between

📝 Episode Summary

Drawing from her new book, Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church, Lillian shares her journey through ministry, the unexpected challenges she encountered, and the moments that forced her to rethink long-held assumptions about leadership, faith, and belonging.

This episode is an honest look at what happens when certainty begins to crack—and why that might not be the end of faith, but the beginning of something more real.

📚 About the Book

Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church

A candid and often humorous reflection on ministry, failure, and the possibility of a more honest and compassionate church. Lillian Daniel offers a rare behind-the-scenes look at pastoral life—challenging assumptions while pointing toward a healthier future.

👤 About the Guest

Lillian Daniel is a United Church of Christ minister, author, and speaker known for her wit, honesty, and thoughtful critique of modern church culture. Her work often explores faith, doubt, leadership, and the evolving role of the church in contemporary life.

🔗 Resources & Links

• Find Lillian’s book wherever books are sold

• Learn more about her work and writing: www.lilliandaniel.com

🎙️ Support the Show

If you enjoyed this episode, you can support The Deconstructionists Podcast by:

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What happens when the version of you that survived… isn’t the version of you that’s whole?

In Part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Cristy Carr, we move deeper—beyond awareness and into the work of healing. Together, we explore what it looks like to reconnect with the parts of ourselves that were silenced, shaped, or suppressed by trauma, religious systems, and the need to belong.

This episode isn’t about quick fixes or easy answers. It’s about the slow, often uncomfortable process of becoming whole again.

Dr. Cristy Carr is a therapist, speaker, and author of The Forgotten Self. Her work focuses on trauma, identity formation, and helping individuals reconnect with their authentic selves—especially those navigating faith transitions and deconstruction.

❤️ Support The Show

If you found this conversation meaningful, there are a few ways to support The Deconstructionists Podcast:

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Special music provided by: Forrest Clay from the Recover EP.

🧭 Episode Summary

Who were you… before you were told who to be?

For many of us—especially those shaped by religious systems—identity isn’t something we discovered. It’s something we inherited.

Beliefs. Roles. Expectations.

All layered over time until the line between who we are and who we were told to be becomes hard to see.

In Part 1 of this two-part conversation, we sit down with Cristy S. Carr to explore the core ideas behind her book The Forgotten Self—and what it means to lose connection with ourselves in the pursuit of certainty, belonging, and faithfulness.

This episode is less about what we believe…

and more about who we’ve become in the process of believing.

📚 About the Guest

Cristy S. Carr is an author, theologian, and speaker whose work focuses on identity, spirituality, and the process of reconnecting with the self. Her book The Forgotten Self explores how we lose touch with who we are—and how we begin to find our way back.

Grab a copy of her new book: https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Self-Remember-Who-Truly/dp/B0G51WPJZN

🔥 Support the Show

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🎥 Join our Patreon

Get access to exclusive content, deep-dive educational videos, and bonus conversations

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⭐ Leave a review

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Episode: Violence and the Bible – What Do We Do With It?

🧭 Episode Summary

Violence is everywhere in the Bible—and for many, it’s one of the most difficult aspects of scripture to reconcile with the idea of a loving God.

In this episode, John explores one of the most pressing and personal questions facing modern readers of the Bible:

What do we do with the violence in scripture—and what does it mean for us today?

Prompted by a recent discussion group and unfolding global events, this episode wrestles with:

• Whether violence is ever justified

• The ethics of war, self-defense, and state power

• How ancient texts have been used—and misused—to justify modern violence

Rather than offering easy answers, this conversation leans into the tension, drawing on biblical scholarship, theology, and ethical philosophy to better understand what the Bible is—and what it is not.

📚 Scholars & Works Referenced

🧠 Foundational Biblical & Ethical Scholarship

• Peter Enns — How the Bible Actually Works

→ Argues that the Bible reflects the perspectives of ancient people trying to understand God, rather than functioning as a rulebook dictated from heaven.

• Greg Boyd — The Crucifixion of the Warrior God

→ Proposes that violent portrayals of God in the Old Testament are refracted through human understanding and ultimately point toward the nonviolent revelation of God in Jesus.

• Eric A. Seibert — Disturbing Divine Behavior

→ Explores troubling depictions of God in scripture and argues that not all portrayals of God in the Bible should be accepted as morally authoritative.

• John J. Collins — Does the Bible Justify Violence?

→ Examines how biblical texts have historically been used to justify violence and urges careful, contextual interpretation.

• Miroslav Volf — Exclusion and Embrace

→ Reflects on violence, justice, and reconciliation in light of human conflict and the Christian call to forgiveness.

🧠 Ethical & Philosophical Perspectives

• Jonathan Sacks — Essays on Ethics

→ Engages deeply with moral questions surrounding violence, responsibility, and the misuse of religious texts.

• Stanley Hauerwas — The Peaceable Kingdom

→ Advocates for a distinctly Christian ethic rooted in nonviolence and the teachings of Jesus.

• Reinhold Niebuhr — Moral Man and Immoral Society

→ Explores the tension between personal ethics and collective political responsibility, including the justification of force.

💬 Join the Conversation

What do you think?

Is violence ever justified? How do you interpret the difficult passages in scripture?

Join us on social or continue the conversation on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/c/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast

The Deconstructionists Podcast

Guest: Dr. Michelle Keener

In Part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Michelle Keener, we go deeper into the themes of her book, Comfort in the Ashes: Explorations in the Book of Job to Support Trauma Survivors, and what it means to engage scripture after certainty has cracked.

If Part 1 explored how harmful interpretations take root, this episode focuses on what comes after—especially for those navigating trauma, deconstruction, and the loss of familiar frameworks.

In this episode, we discuss:

• How trauma reshapes identity, faith, and one’s image of God
• Why grief, anger, and protest are not spiritual failures
• How Job’s refusal to accept easy answers can be a model for honesty
• What it looks like to reconstruct meaning without rushing toward certainty

Dr. Keener brings both scholarly depth and deep compassion to this conversation, offering language and insight for experiences many people struggle to name.

If you’ve ever been told your pain needed a theological explanation…

If you’ve been pressured to “trust God” instead of being heard…

Or if you’re learning how to hold faith with open hands—

This conversation is for you.

Guest Bio:

Dr. Michelle Keener is a scholar, writer, and educator whose work centers on biblical interpretation, trauma-informed theology, and care for those harmed by religious systems. Her book Comfort in the Ashes explores how the Book of Job can be reclaimed as a companion for trauma survivors rather than a weapon used against them.

https://www.michellekeener.com/

For all things Deconstructionists: www.thedeconstructionsts.org

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast

Special Music Provided By: Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.

In this first part of our conversation, we’re joined by Dr. Michelle Keener, author of Comfort in the Ashes: Explorations in the Book of Job to Support Trauma Survivors.

The Book of Job is often cited in conversations about suffering—but just as often, it’s been used to minimize pain, rush people toward answers, or reinforce harmful ideas about God, blame, and endurance. In Comfort in the Ashes, Dr. Keener offers a different approach: one that reads Job through the lens of trauma, care, and lived human experience.

In Part 1, we focus on foundations:

• How the Book of Job has traditionally been taught—and why those interpretations often fail trauma survivors
• The difference between theological explanation and pastoral care
• Why certainty can feel safer than honesty, even when it causes harm
• How questioning inherited beliefs can be an act of survival, not rebellion

This conversation isn’t about solving suffering or defending doctrine.

It’s about slowing down, listening well, and making room for pain without trying to explain it away.

Guest Bio:

Dr. Michelle Keener is a scholar, writer, and educator whose work centers on biblical interpretation, trauma-informed theology, and care for those harmed by religious systems. Her book Comfort in the Ashes explores how the Book of Job can be reclaimed as a companion for trauma survivors rather than a weapon used against them.

https://www.michellekeener.com/

For all things Deconstructionists: www.thedeconstructionsts.org

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast

Special Music Provided By: Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.

In Part Two of our conversation with John Dominic Crossan and Michael Okinczyc-Cruz, we move from historical foundations to present-day consequences.

Once Jesus is understood within the realities of Roman imperial power, the implications become unavoidable — especially in a moment when Christianity in the United States is increasingly entangled with political authority, violence, and domination.

In this episode, we explore:

• The meaning of the “Kingdom of God” in contrast to imperial power
• Nonviolence, resistance, and the cost of discipleship
• How Christianity shifted from challenging empire to aligning with it
• The difference between domination systems and distributive justice
• Why these ancient tensions feel so familiar today

This isn’t about telling listeners what to believe politically.

It’s about asking whether Christianity still resembles the movement it began as — or whether comfort and power have rewritten the story.

The questions raised in this episode aren’t abstract or theoretical. They echo loudly in today’s debates about nationalism, violence, faith, and identity in the United States.

By grounding the conversation in history, Crossan and Okinczyc-Cruz offer listeners tools — not talking points — to think critically about how faith operates in the real world.

If this episode resonated with you, we encourage you to explore the works linked above and join us for ongoing discussions at www.thedeconstructionsts.org where you can join our Patreon, read our blog, and listen to our entire back catalogue of over 200 episodes!

Special music provide by: Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.

In this episode of The Deconstructionists Podcast, we’re joined by John Dominic Crossan and Michael Okinczyc-Cruz for the first part of a wide-ranging conversation about Jesus, empire, and why historical context matters now more than ever.

As religion, power, and nationalism continue to collide in the United States, this conversation feels remarkably timely — not because it’s reacting to current events, but because it’s rooted deeply in history.

In Part One, we focus on setting the foundation:

• The world of the Roman Empire and how it shaped early Christianity
• Why Jesus must be understood as a first-century Jewish figure under imperial occupation
• What happens when modern readers remove Jesus from his historical context
• Why asking historical questions doesn’t weaken faith — but often deepens it

This episode invites listeners to take the Bible seriously enough to let it challenge modern assumptions about power, violence, and faithfulness.

John Dominic Crossan is one of the most influential New Testament scholars of the last fifty years. A historian of early Christianity and co-founder of the Jesus Seminar, Crossan has written extensively on the historical Jesus, the Roman Empire, and the political implications of early Christian theology.

Michael Okinczyc-Cruz is a scholar whose work focuses on empire, power, and the intersection of theology, politics, and economic systems. His research explores how religious ideas function in real historical and social contexts — especially under conditions of domination.

Together, they bring historical rigor and moral clarity to questions that remain deeply relevant today.

• Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography
• https://www.harpercollins.com/products/jesus-a-revolutionary-biography-john-dominic-crossan
• The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant
• https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-historical-jesus-john-dominic-crossan
• God and Empire: Jesus Against Rome, Then and Now
• https://www.harpercollins.com/products/god-and-empire-john-dominic-crossan
• How to Read the Bible and Still Be a Christian
• https://www.harpercollins.com/products/how-to-read-the-bible-and-still-be-a-christian-john-dominic-crossan

• The Politics of Discipleship (with John Dominic Crossan)
• https://www.fortresspress.com/store/productgroup/553/The-Politics-of-Discipleship

Special Music Provided by: Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.

For all things Deconstructionists go to www.thedeconstructionists.org

In this deeply moving conversation, John sits down for part two with Valentyn Syniy, a Ukrainian pastor, theologian, and author whose life and ministry have been profoundly shaped by the reality of war.

This interview was recorded under extraordinary circumstances. Scheduling had to account for the very real possibility of Russian airstrikes and power outages. Valentyn’s wife graciously joined the conversation to assist with translation at moments, helping ensure that everything Valentyn wanted to communicate was conveyed with clarity and care.

Together, we explore:

• What it means to live, pastor, and hold onto faith in the midst of active war
• How violence and trauma test long-held theological assumptions
• The difference between discussing war and surviving it
• Where hope, honesty, and spiritual resilience are found when everything familiar is under siege

Some stories shared in this episode may be difficult to hear, but they are necessary—and deeply human.

Valentyn is the author of God Under Siege, a powerful and unflinching reflection on faith, suffering, and God’s presence amid the devastation of war. Drawing from lived experience rather than distant theology, the book challenges easy answers and invites readers into a more honest, grounded faith.

Get the book:

• Amazon
• Major booksellers
• Wherever books are sold

We’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for.

Subscribers get access to:

• Brand new exclusive videos on requested topics
• Study guides for deeper reflection and group use
• Reference materials and sources to support further learning
• Behind-the-scenes content and extended conversations

If you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper.

Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast

👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible.

For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.org

In this deeply moving conversation, John sits down with Valentyn Syniy, a Ukrainian pastor, theologian, and author whose life and ministry have been profoundly shaped by the reality of war.

For many of us—especially those who have never served or lived in a war-torn region—war can feel abstract. Something debated from a distance. Should troops be sent? Should they not? But for Valentyn and millions of others, war is not theoretical. It is daily life. It is uncertainty, fear, loss—and for many, hell experienced in the here and now.

This interview was recorded under extraordinary circumstances. Scheduling had to account for the very real possibility of Russian airstrikes and power outages. Valentyn’s wife graciously joined the conversation to assist with translation at moments, helping ensure that everything Valentyn wanted to communicate was conveyed with clarity and care.

Together, we explore:

• What it means to live, pastor, and hold onto faith in the midst of active war
• How violence and trauma test long-held theological assumptions
• The difference between discussing war and surviving it
• Where hope, honesty, and spiritual resilience are found when everything familiar is under siege

Some stories shared in this episode may be difficult to hear, but they are necessary—and deeply human.

Valentyn is the author of God Under Siege, a powerful and unflinching reflection on faith, suffering, and God’s presence amid the devastation of war. Drawing from lived experience rather than distant theology, the book challenges easy answers and invites readers into a more honest, grounded faith.

Get the book:

• Amazon
• Major booksellers
• Wherever books are sold

We’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for.

Subscribers get access to:

• Brand new exclusive videos on requested topics
• Study guides for deeper reflection and group use
• Reference materials and sources to support further learning
• Behind-the-scenes content and extended conversations

If you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper.

Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast

👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible.

For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.org

This episode dismantles the most persistent myths surrounding immigration and replaces them with how the system actually works.

We walk through immigration policy historically and in real time—naming the racial roots of U.S. immigration law, explaining why “just do it legally” is not a serious policy position, and breaking down the real costs, timelines, and barriers people face today.

We also look at crime data, benefits myths, economic contributions, and the very real impact current enforcement strategies are having on American farmers and food systems.

• Why immigration law has always been shaped by race
• Policies that restricted Italians, Asians, and other groups
• Obama-era deportations vs. today’s enforcement tactics
• Why deportation numbers vary depending on who’s counting
• Real immigration pathways, timelines, and costs
• Why asylum is slow—and dangerous to wait through
• Crime data vs. fear narratives
• Taxes, benefits, and economic contribution
• Farm labor shortages and food supply impacts
• Why immigration reform is urgent—not theoretical

• Chinese Exclusion Act (1882)
• Immigration Act of 1917
• Emergency Quota Act (1921)
• Immigration Act of 1924 (Johnson–Reed Act / National Origins Act)

• U.S. State Department — Visa Bulletin
• https://travel.state.gov/visa-bulletin
• U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services — Asylum & Work Authorization
• https://www.uscis.gov/asylum
• https://www.uscis.gov/i-765
• Migration Policy Institute
• https://www.migrationpolicy.org

• National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine — Immigration & Crime Summary
• https://nap.nationalacademies.org/resource/21746/issue_brief_crime.pdf
• PNAS peer-reviewed study (Texas arrest data)
• https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014704117
• Cato Institute — Incarceration Rates by Immigration Status
• https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/illegal-immigrant-incarceration-rates-2010-2023

• National Immigration Law Center — Benefits Eligibility
• https://www.nilc.org/resources/overview-immeligfedprograms/
• Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP)
• https://itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-2024/

• Wisconsin Public Radio — Farm labor shortages
• https://www.wpr.org/news/deportations-worry-farmers-labor-shortage-harvest
• Dairy Herd Management — ICE raids and dairy workforce loss
• https://www.dairyherd.com/news/labor/overnight-exodus-how-ice-raid-cut-dairys-workforce-more-half

If the system looked then the way it looks now—who would have been allowed in at all?

We’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for.

Subscribers get access to:

• Brand new exclusive videos on requested topics
• Study guides for deeper reflection and group use
• Reference materials and sources to support further learning
• Behind-the-scenes content and extended conversations

If you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper.

Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast

👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible.

For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.org

Special music provided by: Forrest Clay from the Recover EP.

This episode steps back and asks a harder question:

What has the church done in moments like this before—and what does faithfulness actually require now?

We begin with church history, tracing how Christians have repeatedly been asked to bless state violence in the name of order and safety. We examine how labels like “criminal,” “terrorist,” and “threat” have historically been used to short-circuit moral responsibility.

We then turn to Scripture—not as proof texts, but as story—allowing the biblical narrative to confront modern assumptions about power, violence, and the stranger.

• Historical patterns of Christian complicity with state violence
• Why labels matter more than we think
• False equivalence arguments (“what about…”)
• Why due process is a moral issue
• Jesus, the stranger, and state power
• Why faith rooted in the margins looks different

• Exodus 22:21
• Leviticus 19:33–34
• Deuteronomy 10:18–19
• Isaiah 1
• Amos 5
• Micah 6:8
• Luke 10:25–37
• Matthew 25:31–46
• Matthew 26:52
• John 18–19
• Romans 12–13 (read together, not selectively)

• Migration Policy Institute — Immigration & Enforcement Analysis
• https://www.migrationpolicy.org/research/explainers
• Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse
• https://tracreports.org

Who are we being asked to look away from—and what does that cost our faith?

We’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for.

Subscribers get access to:

• Brand new exclusive videos on requested topics
• Study guides for deeper reflection and group use
• Reference materials and sources to support further learning
• Behind-the-scenes content and extended conversations

If you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper.

Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast

👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible.

For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.org

Special music provided by Forrest Clay from the Recover EP.

In this episode, we address what’s happening right now in the United States as Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) operations escalate in visibility, intensity, and violence.

This is not a political episode.

It’s a human one.

We examine verified facts, video evidence, and legal realities surrounding recent enforcement actions, including documented cases involving American citizens, the failure to follow established protocols after lethal force, and the growing pattern of intimidation, escalation, and public spectacle.

We also talk about confirmation bias—how fear and identity shape what we’re willing to see—and why Christians and the spiritually curious alike have a responsibility to trust evidence over narratives.

• What ICE can and cannot legally do
• Why due process matters even when immigration law is involved
• The danger of pre-justifying violence
• Confirmation bias and moral shortcuts
• Why “order” is not the same thing as justice
• The role of witnesses, neighbors, and allies

• American Civil Liberties Union — Know Your Rights (Immigrants & Bystanders)
• https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/immigrants-rights
• National Lawyers Guild — Legal Observers & Recording Rights
• https://www.nlg.org/legal-observers/
• Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse (TRAC Immigration)
• Independent reporting on ICE enforcement and immigration court data
• https://tracreports.org/immigration

When fear is loud and authority is visible, how do we decide what we’re willing to accept—and what we’re willing to question?

We’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for.

Subscribers get access to:

• Brand new exclusive videos on requested topics
• Study guides for deeper reflection and group use
• Reference materials and sources to support further learning
• Behind-the-scenes content and extended conversations

If you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper.

Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast

👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible.

For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.org

Special music provided by Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.

In Part Two of our conversation with Alexander Shaia, we move beyond theory and into practice—exploring what spiritual transformation actually looks like in real life.

In Part One, we traced the foundations of Dr. Shaia’s work and why his approach to the Gospels resonates so deeply with people navigating faith, doubt, and deconstruction. In this episode, we go deeper—into lived experience, inner change, and the courage it takes to move forward when certainty falls away.

Dr. Shaia shares how spiritual frameworks are meant to form us, not control us, and why the Christian tradition—at its best—has always been about movement, growth, and becoming. This conversation speaks especially to those who feel stuck between belief and disbelief, longing for a faith that can hold both honesty and hope.

Alexander Shaia is a theologian, speaker, and author best known for his work on the transformational structure of the Gospels. His book, Heart and Mind, explores the fourfold journey found within the Christian tradition and presents a compelling alternative to rigid, belief-based models of faith.

Dr. Shaia’s work has become especially meaningful for those who are deconstructing inherited belief systems while still seeking depth, wisdom, and spiritual grounding.

Ph.D., Clinical Psychology, California Institute of Integral Studies, San Francisco, CA, 1991

Graduate Certificate, Pastoral Psychotherapy, University of Puget Sound, Tacoma, WA, 1982

Master of Religious Education, Seattle University, Seattle, WA, 1981

M.A., Counseling Education, University of Alabama in Birmingham, Birmingham, AL, 1976

B.A., Cultural Anthropology, University of Notre Dame du lac, Notre Dame, IN, 1974

Jungian and Sandplay Studies, 1973 - Current; month intensive with Dora M. Kalff – Jungian analyst & originator of Sandplay, Zollikon, Switzerland, July/August 1989

Psychosynthesis Certificate, Psychosynthesis Training Institute, San Francisco, CA, Two year training, 1986-1988 

Website: www.quadratos.org

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/quadratos/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/Quadratos1/featured

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AlexanderJohnShaia/

If you’d like to help support The Deconstructionists Podcast and go deeper with the kinds of conversations we’re having here, check out our brand-new Patreon.

Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast

• 🎧 Book of the Month Club is back
• 📚 Educational resources & study guides available for anyone supporting the show at $5/month or more—less than the price of most Starbucks drinks
• 💛 Your support helps keep the show independent and sustainable

• Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
• Follow us on social media for clips and updates
• Share this episode with someone navigating faith, doubt, or transition

Website: www.thedeconstructionists.org

For many people, the holiday season isn’t filled with joy and nostalgia — it’s filled with grief, loneliness, exhaustion, and complicated memories. This episode is especially for those who find this time of year difficult.

In Part One of this two-part holiday conversation, we’re joined by our dear friend Alexander Shaia for a reflective, unhurried dialogue about meaning, presence, and the wisdom found in honoring seasons rather than fighting them.

Rather than offering platitudes or quick fixes, Dr. Shaia invites us to slow down — to consider what it looks like to live faithfully and humanely when certainty feels thin and the world feels overwhelming. Drawing from ancient Christian wisdom, lived experience, and deep compassion, this conversation offers space to breathe, reflect, and feel less alone.

This is not a teaching session or a debate. It’s a pastoral, contemplative conversation — meant to be received gently, especially by those who are carrying more than they can name this season.

Part Two will continue the conversation, moving deeper into themes of hope, transformation, and what it means to move forward without rushing resolution.

Dr. Alexander Shaia is a theologian, speaker, author, and Quadratos-trained scholar best known for his work on the ancient Christian fourfold Gospel model, a framework that predates modern linear approaches to Scripture and spiritual formation.

His work focuses on helping individuals and communities rediscover cyclical wisdom, spiritual maturity, and transformative faith — especially for those who feel disillusioned, wounded, or worn down by rigid or overly simplistic expressions of Christianity.

Dr. Shaia is widely respected for his ability to bridge scholarship, spirituality, and real human experience, offering language for faith that is honest, compassionate, and deeply grounded in history.

• Official Website:
• https://www.alexandershaia.com & https://www.quadratos.org/
• Books by Dr. Shaia:
• Heart and Mind: The Four-Gospel Journey for Radical Transformation
• Returning From Camino
• Speaking & Teaching:
• Information about events, workshops, and courses can be found on his website.

Ph.D., Clinical Psychology, California Institute of Integral Studies, San Francisco, CA, 1991

Graduate Certificate, Pastoral Psychotherapy, University of Puget Sound, Tacoma, WA, 1982

Master of Religious Education, Seattle University, Seattle, WA, 1981

M.A., Counseling Education, University of Alabama in Birmingham, Birmingham, AL, 1976

B.A., Cultural Anthropology, University of Notre Dame du lac, Notre Dame, IN, 1974

Jungian and Sandplay Studies, 1973 - Current; month intensive with Dora M. Kalff – Jungian analyst & originator of Sandplay, Zollikon, Switzerland, July/August 1989

Psychosynthesis Certificate, Psychosynthesis Training Institute, San Francisco, CA, Two year training, 1986-1988 

➡️ Part Two of this holiday conversation continues with deeper reflection on wisdom, hope, and what it means to live faithfully in uncertain times.

If this episode resonates with you, consider sharing it with someone who might need a quieter, gentler voice this season.

www.thedeconstructionists.org

or on social media!

Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast

Episode Summary:

Part 2 of our conversation with philosopher and friend of the show Peter Rollins goes even deeper into the psychological, existential, and communal dynamics of faith and identity. If Part 1 set the stage, Part 2 pulls the curtain all the way back.

This is one of those conversations that lingers. It’s dense, it’s provocative, and it’s full of the kind of insights that Pete has become known for all around the world.

Resources & References:

• Peter Rollins’ official website: https://peterrollins.com
• Pyrotheology gatherings, seminars, and resources
• Peter’s books and lectures on belief, identity, and desire

Connect With Us:

• Website: www.thedeconstructionists.org
• Instagram: @deconstructionistspodcast
• Email: deconstructionistspodcast@gmail.com
• If you enjoyed this two-part conversation, share it with a friend and tag us on social media.

Episode Summary:

In this long-awaited return to the podcast, philosopher, storyteller, and longtime friend of the show Peter Rollins joins us for a rich, mind-bending conversation about faith, identity, and the transformative potential of doubt. Peter was one of our earliest guests and someone who understood the heart of this podcast from day one. After far too much time away, he’s back — and this conversation does not disappoint.

In Part 1, we dig into some of the themes Peter has become known for: embracing uncertainty, challenging religious narratives that promise certainty or comfort, and exploring how belief functions psychologically and communally. One of the biggest takeaways in this episode is Peter’s insight into Communion vs. community — a deeply fascinating reframing of what spiritual connection actually is and what it isn’t.

Whether you’ve been following Pete’s work for years or you’re encountering him for the first time, this episode is packed with ideas that will challenge, encourage, and maybe even unsettle you (in the best way).

Resources & References:

• Peter Rollins’ official website: https://peterrollins.com
• Books by Peter Rollins, including The Idolatry of God, The Divine Magician, and How (Not) to Speak of God
• Pyrotheology community and events

Connect With Us:

• Website: www.thedeconstructionists.org
• Instagram: @deconstructionistspodcast
• Email: deconstructionistspodcast@gmail.com
• Stay tuned for updated Patreon tiers launching soon!

After years of letting our old Patreon quietly collect dust, we’re excited to officially announce that The Deconstructionists Podcast now has a fully rebuilt Patreon — with brand new tiers, fresh content, and one beloved classic perk we kept just for you.

This podcast has always been — and still is — 100% independent. We cover the costs out of pocket, not because it’s easy, but because we believe in the conversations we’re having and in the community that’s grown around this work. Your emails, messages, and stories are what keep us going.

• Brand new Patreon hub
• Updated support tiers
• Long-form educational video content
• Extended versions of topics you may have seen on TikTok
• Resources and references to go deeper
• And more exclusive content on the way

The short-form clips you see on social media are just the beginning — on Patreon, we take the time to slow down, provide full context, and really explore the questions beneath the surface.

Whether you’re a brand new supporter or someone who’s been with us for years, we cannot thank you enough. As we approach our 10-year anniversary, we have some special surprises planned to celebrate with you.

You can support the show and join our Patreon:

• Through the link here: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast
• Or on our website at thedeconstructionists.org

More interviews, deeper dives, and exciting new content are already in the works for the year ahead.

Thank you for being part of this journey with us.

— The Deconstructionists Podcast

In this deep-dive episode, we explore one of the most influential — and controversial — doctrines in the history of Christianity: Original Sin.

For many of us, Original Sin was presented as a foundational truth. We were told it explained everything wrong with humanity: our impulses, our desires, our bodies, our failures. But where did this idea actually come from? How did early Christian communities understand human nature? And how did one interpretation, shaped by the life and worldview of Augustine, grow into a theological framework that still impacts psychology, sexuality, gender, and modern Christian identity?

This episode unpacks the text, the history, the cultural influences, and the lasting consequences of the doctrine — and invites listeners to reconsider what it means to be human, good, flawed, and beloved.

• The doctrine as many of us inherited it
• Why it came to dominate Western Christianity
• How it differs from concepts of sin in early Jewish and early Christian thought

• Augustine’s life, trauma, and worldview — and how each shaped his theology
• How his readings of Paul became the backbone of Original Sin
• Where he diverges from earlier Christian writers and the Greek Fathers

• Romans 5 and its contested interpretations
• Genesis 3 as story versus doctrine
• How translation choices influenced meaning
• Why Jewish interpretations of the same texts are radically different

• How ideas about sex, bodies, and desire shaped the doctrine
• Shame vs. guilt — and how Western Christianity confused the two
• The psychological cost of believing we are “born broken”

• A look at diversity in early Christian thought
• Eastern Christian views on sin, growth, and human potential
• How the doctrine evolved over centuries, not overnight

• How Original Sin shaped purity culture
• How it influenced sermons, parenting, and “Christian counseling”
• Its role in reinforcing fundamentalism’s fear-based frameworks
• Why many of us internalized shame as spirituality

• Alternatives rooted in scripture and tradition
• Why many theologians argue the doctrine is not essential
• What happens when we start from belovedness rather than brokenness

So many deconstruction journeys begin with questions like:

• “Am I really this messed up, or did I just inherit a harmful framework?”
• “Is the human story fundamentally about failure?”
• “Why does the church talk about sin more than love?”

Understanding where the doctrine of Original Sin came from — and how historically recent and culturally shaped it actually is — can be freeing. It opens the door to new ways of understanding ourselves, our bodies, our past, and our future.

It also challenges the narrative that progressive or post-evangelical Christians are the ones “not taking the Bible seriously.” In reality, reassessing the doctrine through context, language, and scholarship is exactly what taking scripture seriously looks like.

• The Birth of Satan – Pagels & B. McGinn
• The Sin of Certainty – Peter Enns
• The Evolution of Adam – Peter Enns
• The Story of Original Sin – John E. Toews
• Sin: A History – Gary A. Anderson
• Writings of Augustine, especially Confessions and On the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins

Have a topic you’d love to hear explored in 2026?

Reach out anytime:

Website: www.thedeconstructionists.org

Email: deconstructionistspodcast@gmail.com

Instagram/TikTok: @deconstructionistspodcast

Want to support the show?

The Patreon relaunch is coming early next year with new tiers and some returning favorites. Thank you to everyone already supporting — it truly makes the work possible.

In this second half of John’s conversation with Pastor Joe Ingle, we continue exploring the deeply human, often heartbreaking realities of prison ministry — particularly Joe’s decades of work with individuals on death row.

If Part 1 introduced the calling and contours of his work, Part 2 steps fully into the emotional, spiritual, and ethical complexities of walking with people whom society has condemned and often forgotten. Joe shares stories from his time working with incarcerated individuals, the end-of-life moments he has witnessed, the failures and blind spots of our justice system, and the surprising ways grace and humanity still break through in the darkest circumstances.

This is not a conversation about abstract theology or distant policy — it’s about presence, dignity, and the costly practice of seeing people when no one else does.

👉 Joe’s experiences accompanying individuals through their final days and hours

👉 What capital punishment looks like from the inside — spiritually, emotionally, and practically

👉 The toll this work takes on families, communities, and those who minister in these spaces

👉 How systemic failures and racial inequities shape incarceration and sentencing

👉 The difficult conversations Joe has had with death row inmates — and the moments that stay with him

👉 The theological and moral implications of state-sanctioned execution

👉 Why Joe believes presence, not answers, is the most powerful form of ministry

👉 How his experiences have shaped his own understanding of justice, mercy, and the Gospel

Pastor Joe’s work forces us to confront the human cost of our justice system — not through statistics or talking points, but through stories of real people with real families, real trauma, and real hope.

His ministry challenges us to consider:

• What does justice actually mean?
• What does mercy look like when lives hang in the balance?
• What does faith ask of us when the systems around us fail?
• And how do we honor the humanity of those our society has discarded?

These questions aren’t easy — but they’re necessary. And Joe brings decades of lived experience to help us wrestle with them.

Pastor Joe Ingle is a long-time prison minister, author, activist, and advocate for people on death row. For decades he has been a steady presence for individuals facing execution, providing pastoral care, support, and companionship in some of the most difficult circumstances imaginable. His work has shaped national conversations on criminal justice reform and continues to call the Church toward deeper compassion and accountability.

If you missed the first half of this conversation — including the origin of Joe’s calling and the stories that shaped his approach to justice — be sure to listen to Part 1.

If this episode resonates with you, you can help support the podcast by:

🔥 Leaving a 5-star review

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Your support helps new listeners find the show and keeps conversations like this possible.

In this long-awaited and nearly lost conversation, John sits down with Pastor Joe Ingle, a longtime prison minister, advocate, and spiritual companion to people on death row. Joe’s work challenges our assumptions about justice, punishment, compassion, and what it means to show up for people society has thrown away.

This interview was recorded last year and was almost lost forever when the laptop it was saved on died unexpectedly. Miraculously, the file was recovered just in time — and we are finally able to share Part 1 of this important two-part conversation.

Following our recent episode with Chaplain Kerstin Hedlund, who offered insight into spiritual care within the military, Joe continues our exploration of ministry in difficult, often unseen places — where grief, hope, and humanity collide in profound ways.

In Part 1, we cover:

• Joe’s early call to prison ministry
• How he became involved with individuals facing execution
• What it actually looks like to walk with someone on death row
• The spiritual, emotional, and human complexities of prison chaplaincy
• How society frames “criminals” — and what we miss when we refuse to see their humanity
• The cost of compassion, and why Joe refuses to turn away
• Why faith traditions often struggle to handle justice and mercy well
• The surprising places Joe has seen grace show up behind bars

Joe’s work invites us to confront just how uncomfortable — and necessary — compassion can be. His stories shine light on systems we rarely see and raise hard questions about accountability, punishment, redemption, and what Christian faith looks like when lived out in the shadows.

For listeners who appreciated our recent conversation with Chaplain Kerstin Hedlund, Joe’s perspective provides a powerful complement. Together, their episodes explore ministry in spaces most people never encounter, each revealing a different facet of what deep presence and care look like.

Pastor Joe Ingle has spent decades ministering to incarcerated individuals across the United States, particularly those on death row. His work centers on accompaniment, advocacy, and restoring dignity to people society has deemed irredeemable. Joe is also an author and activist committed to criminal justice reform and the abolition of the death penalty.

Grab a copy of Joe's book, "Too Close to the Flame: With the Condemned inside the Southern Killing Machine."

If this episode resonates with you, please consider:

• Sharing it with a friend
• Leaving a 5-star review
• Supporting the podcast on Patreon
• Following us on Instagram, X, TikTok, and YouTube

Your support helps new listeners find these important stories.

In this episode, we continue our conversation with Army Chaplain Lieutenant Colonel Kerstin Hedlund. If you haven’t listened to Part 1 yet, we recommend starting there for context.

Kerstin has spent years serving alongside soldiers in moments of grief, trauma, transition, and deep personal struggle. Her work isn’t about offering easy answers. It’s about presence, listening, and holding space for real human complexity.

This conversation is for anyone who has wrestled with suffering, loss, or disillusionment. It’s also for those who care deeply about someone who has served.

Kerstin’s insight offers a grounded and deeply humane perspective on what it means to stay present with one another through the hardest parts of life.

If you’d like to explore more about topics mentioned in this episode:

• “Soul Repair: Recovering from Moral Injury After War” – Rita Nakashima Brock & Gabriella Lettini
• The Moral Injury Project – Syracuse University
• VA National Center for PTSD: https://www.ptsd.va.gov
• Military Chaplaincy Overview: https://www.goarmy.com/chaplain

• Website: thedeconstructionists.org
• Instagram: @deconstructionistspodcast
• X (Twitter): @deconstructcast
• Support the show: patreon.com/deconstructionists

In this two-part conversation, John sits down with Pastor Kerstin Hedlund, a U.S. Army Chaplain whose story offers a rare window into what faith looks like when it’s lived out in the hardest and most human places.

From her path into military chaplaincy to the deep questions that arise in the presence of trauma and moral injury, Kerstin’s perspective brings theology down to earth — into barracks, hospitals, and battle zones — where hope, compassion, and grief often collide.

Together they explore what it means to serve others in a system defined by hierarchy and discipline, how empathy and faith can survive amid loss, and why doubt and mystery might actually make us more compassionate people.

Pastor Kerstin’s story reminds us that faith isn’t tested in seminaries or sanctuaries — it’s tested in the trenches of real life. Her honesty about doubt, fatigue, and renewal challenges the neat formulas we often attach to belief and invites us toward something deeper, more embodied, and more human.

🎧 Available wherever you get your podcasts.

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Episode: Hell, the Devil, and Atonement Theories

What exactly do Christians mean when they talk about hell? Where did the idea of the devil come from, and why does it look so different across the Bible? And why are there so many different theories of atonement—Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection—when most of us only ever hear one?

In this episode, we dig deep into the history, language, and theology behind three core ideas that have shaped Christianity for centuries:

• Hell – from Sheol and Gehenna in the Hebrew Bible to Dante’s Inferno and modern evangelical preaching.
• The Devil – tracing the figure from the Hebrew Bible’s “accuser” to the cosmic enemy of God in later Christian thought.
• Atonement Theories – surveying models from Christus Victor to Moral Influence to Penal Substitution, and asking how these different views reveal the diverse ways Christians have tried to understand salvation.

This conversation explores how these concepts developed over time, why they remain so influential, and what happens when we step back to ask whether we’ve been handed the whole story.

If you want to dive deeper, here are some books and articles we recommend:

• Edward Fudge – The Fire That Consumes
• Robin Parry – The Evangelical Universalist
• Jerry L. Walls – Hell: The Logic of Damnation

• Elaine Pagels – The Origin of Satan
• Henry Ansgar Kelly – Satan: A Biography
• Archibald Robertson – The Devil: His Origin and His Fall

• Gustaf Aulén – Christus Victor
• N.T. Wright – The Day the Revolution Began
• Fleming Rutledge – The Crucifixion: Understanding the Death of Jesus Christ
• Tony Jones – A Better Atonement (shorter, accessible resource)

• Bart Ehrman – Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife
• C. S. Lewis – The Great Divorce (a classic imaginative take, though not academic)
• The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entries on “Hell,” “Satan,” and “Atonement” (for an open-access scholarly overview).

• Website: thedeconstructionists.org
• Instagram & X: @deconstructcast

Special music by Forrest Clay from the Recover EP

In this episode, John takes on a question that’s been floating around the public conversation for years — often asked with fear, frustration, or misunderstanding: Is deconstruction a bad thing?

After years of listening to the debate unfold online and in church spaces, it felt like time to finally respond. This conversation is part of our current series tackling some of the most frequently requested topics from listeners — and few have come up as often as this one.

John explores what “deconstruction” actually means, why so many people are drawn to it, and how it’s often mischaracterized by those who haven’t walked through it. From faith crises to intellectual honesty, this episode invites listeners to see deconstruction not as the end of faith, but as a deeply human and often necessary process of growth.

• Why the term “deconstruction” has become controversial
• How faith communities have responded — and why many get it wrong
• The philosophical roots of deconstruction (Derrida, Foucault, and beyond)
• Why deconstruction doesn’t equal destruction
• The emotional and spiritual side of rethinking belief
• Rebuilding after the unraveling — what comes next
• Listener questions: “Can you come back from deconstruction?”

• Deconstruction isn’t rebellion — it’s reflection.
• Asking hard questions doesn’t destroy faith; it refines it.
• Healthy faith can withstand curiosity, doubt, and nuance.
• The goal isn’t to tear down belief, but to let go of what’s untrue so that something more honest can take root.

• Books & Articles
• Faith After Doubt — Brian D. McLaren (Amazon)
• The Sin of Certainty — Peter Enns (Amazon)
• The Great Spiritual Migration — Brian D. McLaren (Amazon)
• Out of Sorts — Sarah Bessey (Amazon)
• Theology in the Raw — “Is Deconstruction a Bad Thing?” podcast episode (theologyintheraw.com)
• Essays & Think Pieces
• “Deconstruction Is Not the Enemy” — Sojourners Magazine
• “When Faith Falls Apart: Why Deconstruction Can Be Holy” — Relevant Magazine
• “The Difference Between Deconstruction and Destruction” — Religion News Service
• Follow the Conversation
• Instagram
• X / Twitter
• thedeconstructionists.com

Available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.

👉 Don’t forget to leave a review and share the episode with someone who’s wrestling with their faith journey.

Episode Summary

You’ve probably heard it before: “The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality.” But is that actually true?

In this episode, we put that claim under a microscope. We dig into the six main passages most often cited against same-sex relationships, examine them in their original language and cultural context, and confront the translation choices and theological assumptions that have shaped centuries of Christian thought.

We also respond to common accusations from fundamentalist circles—that affirming interpretations “don’t take the Bible seriously” or are just “twisting Scripture to fit modern culture”—and show how serious scholarship actually tells a different story.

Key Topics Covered

• Why the word “homosexual” did not appear in English Bibles until the 20th century

• How ancient cultures, including those in the biblical world, understood sexuality and relationships

• The difference between exploitative, non-consensual sexual acts in the ancient world and modern, loving, consensual same-sex relationships

• Detailed breakdown of:

• Genesis 19 (Sodom and Gomorrah)

• Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13 (Holiness Code)

• Romans 1:26–27

• 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10

• Why context matters: ancient hospitality codes, temple prostitution, and cultural purity laws

• How fewer than a dozen verses address same-sex acts—compared to thousands on love, justice, and caring for the marginalized

• Why serious biblical scholarship supports an affirming view

Primary Sources & Scholarship

Research for this episode draws from respected biblical scholars, linguists, and historians, including:

General Context & Language Studies

• Matthew Vines – God and the Gay Christian

• David P. Gushee – Changing Our Mind

• James V. Brownson – Bible, Gender, Sexuality

• William Loader – The New Testament on Sexuality

Translation & Language Issues

• Ed Oxford – research on the history of the word homosexual in Bible translations

• Dale B. Martin – Sex and the Single Savior

Old Testament Context

• John J. Collins – Introduction to the Hebrew Bible (on Holiness Code)

• Martti Nissinen – Homoeroticism in the Biblical World: A Historical Perspective

• Dan McClellan - the Bible Says So: What we get Right (and wrong) About Scripture's Most Controversial Issues

New Testament Context

• N.T. Wright – various works on Paul (discussing cultural setting)

• Robin Scroggs – The New Testament and Homosexuality

• Ken Stone – Practicing Safer Texts: Food, Sex and Bible in Queer Perspective

Special music on this episode provided by Forrest Clay and Que Jones

In Part Two of our interview with Sarah Hurwitz, we dive deeper into the big questions raised in Here All Along. Drawing on her experiences in both politics and faith, Sarah reflects on the role of ritual, the meaning of community, and how spiritual practices can ground us in an unsteady world.

In this episode, we discuss:

• How Jewish rituals and practices can bring balance to modern life.
• The challenge and beauty of faith communities today.
• Lessons from her time working with President Obama’s speechwriting team and Michelle Obama.
• How wisdom traditions can help us wrestle with meaning, identity, and purpose.

Sarah Hurwitz served as a senior speechwriter for President Barack Obama and as chief speechwriter for First Lady Michelle Obama from 2010 to 2017. Since leaving the White House, she has become a leading voice in exploring spirituality and Jewish identity for a new generation.

• 📖 Book: Here All Along (Amazon)
• website: https://www.sarahhurwitz.net/
• 🌐 Author Page: Penguin Random House – Sarah Hurwitz

Stay connected with The Deconstructionists and never miss an episode:

• 🎧 Apple Podcasts
• 🎧 Spotify
• 🌐 Official Website
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In this first half of our conversation with Sarah Hurwitz—author, former White House speechwriter, and chief speechwriter for First Lady Michelle Obama—we explore her journey from the political stage to a deeply personal exploration of faith. Sarah was part of President Obama’s speechwriting team, helping craft some of his most memorable addresses, before turning her attention to spirituality and Jewish identity.

Her latest book, Here All Along: Finding Meaning, Spirituality, and a Deeper Connection to Life—in Judaism (After Finally Choosing to Look There), invites readers to rediscover ancient wisdom and reimagine what faith can mean in the modern world.

In Part One, we talk about:

• Sarah’s path from politics to spirituality.
• What drew her to reconnect with her Jewish roots.
• The inspiration and process behind writing Here All Along.
• Why ancient traditions can still speak powerfully today.

Sarah Hurwitz served as a senior speechwriter for President Barack Obama and as chief speechwriter for First Lady Michelle Obama from 2010 to 2017. Since leaving the White House, she has become a leading voice in exploring spirituality and Jewish identity for a new generation.

• 📖 Book: Here All Along (Amazon)
• website: https://www.sarahhurwitz.net/
• 🌐 Author Page: Penguin Random House – Sarah Hurwitz

Stay connected with The Deconstructionists and never miss an episode:

• 🎧 Apple Podcasts
• 🎧 Spotify
• 🌐 Official Website
• 📱 Follow us on Instagram, X / Twitter, and Facebook

Episode Summary

The Bible is often treated as if it arrived perfectly bound, leather-covered, and gold-edged, straight from heaven. But the reality is far more complex—and far more interesting.

In this episode, we dig into the real history of how the Bible was formed—from its earliest writings to the process of canonization, from the Apocrypha to translation controversies, and why no one alive today has ever held an original manuscript.

We’ll talk about:

• When the books were likely written

• Who scholars think wrote them

• Why certain books were included or excluded

• The political and theological forces that shaped the canon

• How translation is never neutral

• Why inerrancy is a recent idea in Christian history

By the end, you’ll see the Bible not as a static, untouchable artifact, but as a living record shaped by people, history, culture, and language.

Key Topics Covered

• The Bible as a library, not a single book

• Timeline of Old and New Testament composition

• The development of the Jewish Scriptures and Christian canon

• The role of councils and church politics in determining canon

• The Apocrypha—what it is and why it’s in some Bibles but not others

• How the Dead Sea Scrolls changed what we know about biblical history

• Why we don’t have original manuscripts, and how scholars reconstruct the text

• Major translation milestones—from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate to the King James Version to modern editions

• How the concept of biblical inerrancy only took root in the late 19th–early 20th centuries

Primary Sources & Scholarship

The research for this episode draws from respected biblical scholars, historians, and textual critics, including:

Canon Formation & Authorship

• Bart D. Ehrman – Jesus, Interrupted; Misquoting Jesus; Lost Scriptures

• John Barton – A History of the Bible: The Story of the World’s Most Influential Book

• Bruce M. Metzger – The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance

• Lee Martin McDonald – The Biblical Canon: Its Origin, Transmission, and Authority

Dating & Historical Context

• Paul’s letters: c. 50–60 CE

• Gospel of Mark: c. 65–70 CE

• Matthew & Luke: c. 80–90 CE

• John: c. 90–100 CE

• Revelation: c. 95 CE

• John J. Collins – Introduction to the Hebrew Bible

Dead Sea Scrolls

• Lawrence H. Schiffman – Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls

• James VanderKam – The Dead Sea Scrolls Today

Excluded & Apocryphal Texts

• Marvin Meyer – The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus

• Karen L. King – The Gospel of Mary of Magdala

• Timothy Michael Law – When God Spoke Greek: The Septuagint and the Making of the Christian Bible

Textual Criticism & Manuscripts

• Daniel B. Wallace – works on New Testament textual variants and manuscript dating

• Eldon Jay Epp – Perspectives on New Testament Textual Criticism

Translation History & Inerrancy

• Peter Enns – The Bible Tells Me So

• Kenton L. Sparks – God’s Word in Human Words

• Mark Noll – The Civil War as a Theological Crisis

Special music by Forrest Clay from the Recover EP. Find it anywhere you find your music!

In Part 2 of our conversation with Bailey Krawczyk, we move from the experience of life inside Hillsong to the harrowing process of getting out. Bailey opens up about the aftermath of leaving, the emotional toll of speaking out in the Hillsong documentary, and the backlash from those still inside the movement.

We also explore the broader systems that allowed abuse and control to flourish unchecked—and why naming these systems is the first step toward healing.

• The trauma of leaving a high-control religious group
• Psychological aftermath: shame, guilt, grief, and recovery
• The media spotlight and what it didn’t show
• How systems of power protect abusive leadership
• Deconstructing your faith after spiritual betrayal

Bailey Krawczyk continues to advocate for survivors of spiritual and institutional abuse. Her story has resonated with thousands of others who have walked away from toxic faith environments in search of something more whole, more honest, and more human.

• Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed [Discovery+ / Hulu]
• https://www.instagram.com/baileykrawczyk/
• Film: https://vimeo.com/1088719956
• [Book recommendation] When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat
• [Podcast] Leaving Hillsong
• [Resource] ICSA: International Cultic Studies Association – www.icsahome.com

If this conversation resonated with you, don’t forget to follow, rate, and review The Deconstructionists wherever you get your podcasts. Share this episode with someone who might be ready to hear it.

Special music by Forrest Clay from the Recover E.P.

In this first of a two-part conversation, we sit down with Bailey Krawczyk, a former Hillsong member who bravely spoke out in the Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed documentary. Bailey shares what initially drew her to the movement—its music, its energy, its promises of purpose—and how that promise slowly unraveled.

From inside the worship team to behind-the-scenes control tactics, Bailey gives us a raw, unfiltered look at life inside one of the most influential—and controversial—church brands in the world.

If you’ve ever felt conflicted about your time in a megachurch, or questioned how power and performance intersect with faith, this episode is for you.

• How Hillsong built an emotionally immersive culture
• The fine line between community and control
• The spiritual cost of performance-based faith
• Early red flags that often go unnoticed
• What “high control” church culture really looks like

Bailey Krawczyk is a former Hillsong member and whistleblower featured in the Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed documentary. Her advocacy work now focuses on empowering survivors of spiritual abuse and raising awareness about high-control religious environments.

• Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed [Discovery+ / Hulu]
• https://www.instagram.com/baileykrawczyk/
• Film: https://vimeo.com/1088719956
• [Book recommendation] When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat
• [Podcast] Leaving Hillsong
• [Resource] ICSA: International Cultic Studies Association – www.icsahome.com

If this conversation resonated with you, don’t forget to follow, rate, and review The Deconstructionists Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Share this episode with someone who might be ready to hear it.

Special Music by Forrest Clay from the Recover E.P.

In this episode, we step into one of the most emotionally and politically charged issues in modern history—the war in Gaza and the roots of Zionism. With so much confusion around the history, theology, and current events, we take a step back to examine how we got here and why it matters.

We trace the origins of modern Zionism, the rise of the state of Israel, and how Western Christianity—particularly American evangelicalism—has shaped both the theology and the politics that continue to impact real people on the ground. This episode isn’t about taking easy sides. It’s about understanding the deeper story beneath the headlines.

• What is Zionism and where did it come from?
• The Balfour Declaration and British colonial influence
• The founding of the state of Israel in 1948
• The Nakba and its lasting impact on Palestinian people
• How American evangelicalism helped shape U.S. foreign policy toward Israel
• The role of Dispensationalism and the Scofield Bible
• Christian Zionism vs. ethical Christian responsibility
• The ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza
• Why understanding this history matters for people of faith today

• “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” by Ilan Pappé
• “A Wall in Palestine” by René Backmann
• “Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews” by Alan Hart
• “Blood Brothers” by Elias Chacour
• “The Bible and Zionism” by Nur Masalha
• “The Iron Cage: The Story of the Palestinian Struggle for Statehood” by Rashid Khalidi
• “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” by Stephen Sizer
• “The Bible, The Jews, and the Death of Jesus” by Adele Reinhartz

• The Law in These Parts (documentary)
• Al Nakba (Al Jazeera English documentary series)
• Occupation 101 (2006 documentary on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict)
• With God On Our Side (Christian Zionism documentary by Porter Speakman Jr.)

• B’Tselem – The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories
• Jewish Voice for Peace
• IfNotNow Movement
• Kairos Palestine Document (2009)

If this episode challenged or inspired you, please consider leaving a review and sharing it with a friend.

Episode Description:

In the year 897, Pope Stephen VI ordered the rotting corpse of his predecessor, Pope Formosus, to be dug up, dressed in papal robes, propped up on a throne, and put on trial.

Yes, this actually happened.

This bizarre and macabre moment in church history—known as the Cadaver Synod or Synodus Horrenda—is one of the most infamous (and grotesque) episodes of the medieval papacy. In this episode, John Williamson dives deep into the political chaos of 9th-century Rome, explains how the corpse trial came to be, and breaks down why the church literally put a dead pope on the stand.

Get ready for a tale of revenge, power, posthumous punishment, and one of the most unhinged trials in recorded history.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

• Who Pope Formosus was, and why his enemies hated him

• Why Pope Stephen VI risked total scandal to hold the corpse trial

• What actually happened during the Synod—from propping up the corpse to cutting off its fingers

• How this event caused riots, a papal overthrow, and a historical backlash that shaped future church policy

• How the corpse trial symbolizes the violent politics of the medieval church

Sources & Research References:

1. Duffy, Eamon. Saints and Sinners: A History of the Popes (Yale University Press, 1997).

2. Norwich, John Julius. Absolute Monarchs: A History of the Papacy (Random House, 2011).

3. Mann, Horace K. The Lives of the Popes in the Early Middle Ages, Vol. IV (1902).

4. Partner, Peter. The Pope’s Men: The Papal Civil Service in the Renaissance (Oxford University Press, 1990).

5. Collins, Roger. Keepers of the Keys of Heaven: A History of the Papacy (Basic Books, 2009).

6. De Rosa, Peter. Vicars of Christ: The Dark Side of the Papacy (Crown, 1988).

7. Catholic Encyclopedia (1913 edition) – “Pope Formosus” and “Cadaver Synod” entries

8. New Advent: “Synod Horrenda” entry

9. History Extra – BBC History Magazine: “The Cadaver Synod: Why a Pope Went on Trial After Death”

10. JSTOR Daily – “The Time the Catholic Church Put a Dead Pope on Trial”

11. Atlas Obscura – “The Cadaver Synod: The Time a Dead Pope Was Put on Trial”

Listener Questions & Reactions:

Have thoughts on the corpse trial? Theories? Favorite pope gossip?

Drop John a message at historyonthemarginspod@gmail.com, or join the conversation online using the hashtag #CorpseSynod or #HistoryOnTheMargins

📌 Episode Summary:

In this deeply insightful episode, John sits down with Dr. Paula Swindle—a licensed therapist and professor who has spent a career studying religious trauma —to unpack the concept of spiritual bypass, the psychological consequences of religious trauma, and the subtle ways churches often silence dissent.

Dr. Swindle brings decades of experience working at the intersection of psychology and faith, offering a compassionate and deeply informed perspective for anyone trying to untangle their religious experience from their identity and healing journey. If you’ve ever been told to “just forgive and move on,” this conversation is for you.

Originally recorded for Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power, this interview felt too important not to share here as well. For the full series: www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com

🔑 Topics Covered:

• What is spiritual bypass and how does it show up in churches?

• Why “positive vibes only” culture can be harmful in religious spaces

• The long-term impact of suppressing anger, grief, and doubt

• How faith communities often retraumatize survivors of abuse

• Practical ways to reclaim your story and find safe support

📚 Recommended Resources:

• Our boy Dan's podcast: You Have Permission: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/when-religion-hurts-you-229/id1448000113?i=1000640316552

🗣️ Join the Conversation:

Have you experienced spiritual bypass or church-related trauma? We’d love to hear your story. Tag us on social media or reach out privately.

#DeconstructionistsPodcast #SpiritualBypass #ChurchTrauma #ReligiousRecovery #FaithAndHealing

📌 Episode Summary:

In Part 2 of this powerful and emotional interview, Adey and Tom Wassink continue their story of navigating faith, integrity, and exclusion. After years of dedicated service in the Vineyard Movement, their decision to affirm LGBTQ people came with real consequences—not just within the church, but in their community, friendships, and calling.

They speak candidly about the silence that followed, the weight of institutional disappointment, and how they found freedom on the other side. This is a story of courage, conviction, and ultimately—hope.

📚 Recommended Follow-Up:

• Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power – Episode 6

• Resources on LGBTQ-affirming theology

• [Music by Q Jones] "Before I Go Home"

🙏 Support the Show:

If this conversation moved you, consider sharing it with a friend, leaving a review, or tagging us on social media. These stories matter—and your voice helps amplify them.

#DeconstructionistsPodcast #FaithAfterEvangelicalism #SpiritualIntegrity #AffirmingFaith

📌 Episode Summary:

In Part 1 of this deeply moving conversation, John sits down with Adey and Tom Wassink—former Vineyard pastors who found themselves quietly pushed to the margins for their commitment to LGBTQ inclusion.

The Wassinks share their story of faithful ministry, their transformation toward a more affirming theology, and the difficult choices they faced as a result. Through heartbreak, resilience, and deep spiritual reflection, they illuminate the cost of integrity within systems resistant to change.

This episode originally aired as part of Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power, but their story resonated so powerfully that we wanted to share it here as well.

🎵 Special Note:

The song featured at the end of this episode "Before I Go Home," was written and performed by Q Jones, worship leader at John’s church. The song reflects Q’s own journey and felt especially fitting for this story. Used with permission.

📚 Recommended Resources:

• Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power – Episode 6

🗣️ Share the Conversation:

If this story resonates with you, please consider rating and reviewing the podcast, sharing this episode on social media, and continuing the dialogue with us online using:

#DeconstructionistsPodcast #FaithAndInclusion #LGBTQAffirmingFaith

Subscribe now so you don't miss a single new episode!

www.thedeconstructionists.org