Polaris’ Chief Customer Growth Officer talks with The Current Podcast about how many of the company’s customers are multicultural and have preferred style over performance.

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:59] Damian: I'm [00:01:00] Damian ​Fowler.

[00:01:05] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. And

[00:01:07] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:01:09] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Pam Kermisch, the Chief Customer Growth Officer at Polaris. 

[00:01:15] Damian: Polaris was founded 70 years ago with the invention of the early snowmobile in 1954. Polaris takes its name after the North Star, and it's meant to reflect the location of the company's first headquarters in northern Minnesota. 

[00:01:34] Ilyse: These days, Polaris is the global industry leader in power sports. Offering everything from Indian motorcycles to its off road racers. And all the accessories that go with them.

[00:01:44] Damian: During the pandemic, the brands saw a surge of interest in its vehicles as people embraced outdoor activity. Although it started out as a specialized brand, it continues to build on its popularity through its marketing campaign. Think outside. 

[00:02:03] Pam: Back in 1954, two brothers and a best friend decided they way, faster to get to their location. And they literally strapped a motor to the back of a sled and created the first snowmobile. It was ingenuity at its best. 

[00:02:20] And when I think about Polaris today, We have recreational vehicles. We have motorcycles. We have off road vehicles. We have boats. We also have utility vehicles that help people do work smarter. And at the end of the day, it's really about getting people outside and helping to have a better way to do things, whether it's working smarter or on the recreational side, having the most epic experiences with your friends and family.

[00:02:47] Ilyse: Very nice. Now in 2019, the brand actually underwent a new rebranding with a new Think Outside campaign. 

[00:02:56] Ilyse: I read that there is a goal to basically grow the base [00:03:00] by 50 percent by tapping into your existing base and finding new customers as well. What was your strategy around that and how has it played out to this point?

[00:03:11] Pam: Yes. So in 2019, We really took a look at talking to our existing customers, talking to potential intenders of our brands and talking to people we thought might be interested in what we offer. And we did some great consumer research. And what we learned is at the heart of it, we tapped into what they really care about.

[00:03:35] And what we found is what our current existing owners care about. More people could care about. We just had to find the right people. We had to reach out to them. We had to show them how this could fit into their lives and introduce them to our brand. And it's really been a  huge effort the past few years. To find the right people and show them how this could fit in with what they  already do and make it better. And on top of bringing in more new customers, it's also bringing in new people that look a little different than our core customers.

[00:04:11] Damian: Very interesting, because when you think what sell in a way, kind of very specialized, I don't know whether I'd it niche. 

[00:04:22] Pam: you know, I think when you look at household penetration off road vehicles, for example, household - So you're right. It's not something where it's 70, 80, 90 percent of the market has one of these. But what I will say is if you think about some of the audiences. We do attract people love outdoor recreation. love being outside. They love adventure. They might do camping, they might do hiking, they might do fishing. We also think about the people who do property maintenance They're farmers, they're ranchers, They're hunters. So, when you think about those populations, they are much more likely to buy our products. But if you look at the penetration even within those, We don't have 80 90 percent of hunters, so there's still so much penetration opportunity within people who do the activities where it seems like they would really benefit from something that we could offer them. 

[00:05:26] Damian: Was there a moment when you realized there was the potential to expand the audience? That's so interesting to me and I wonder how you found that opportunity.

[00:05:40] Pam:  So I'm kind of a nerd, self admittedly kind of a nerd. And I really think that CRM and data and analytics played a huge role in this journey because prior to [00:06:00] having that type of capability, we actually didn't know how many customers we had. We had customers for decades, but we actually didn't know how many customers. We knew how many units we had sold, but units does not equal customers because you have people who have owned more than one over time. So going back a handful of years, we were able to Get CRM, take our data in, cleanse the data, de dupe our, people and, understand how many customers we had and set some goals and start measuring how many new customers came in each year.

[00:06:35] And when I say new customers, some were brand new to the category. Some had owned competitive vehicles before, but never bought from Polaris.

[00:06:45] Pam: some may have owned a used Polaris vehicle, but had never bought new from us. So It's not a flash in the pan sort of thing. This is a strategy that we really need to go after. And so it became very intentional to, of course, as the global leader, it's in our best interest to get existing customers and come back to buy again because we have the largest number of existing customers. But we also need to focus on bringing in new people and we've proven we can do it. So let's do it. 

[00:07:17] Ilyse: And that first party data is huge to any brand. How is Polaris is actually getting your first-party data from customers? Can you explain that shopper journey a little bit? And may how that journey may be different from a traditional auto dealer.

[00:07:31] Pam: And Absolutely. So if you buy a car. It has to be warranty registered. So that manufacturer will know that you bought a car from them. So if anything should go wrong with warranty, that they are able to contact you. Very similar, when someone buys one of our vehicles and it gets warranty registered, we receive the customer information.

[00:07:54] And we certainly can use third party data to append that, but we know who owns that vehicle. [00:08:00] We also do have people who visit our website. In our dealerships, the majority of them, we call them multi line dealerships. So, they do sell Polaris, but they also may sell Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Can Am. And so, you think of it very to being grocery store being in a cereal aisle, where you have all the competitors right there in the same you may think you're going to the cereal aisle to buy Frosted Flakes and Flip and buy multigrain cheerios. 

[00:08:32] Pam: A customer can come to our dealership thinking they're going to buy a Polaris Ranger and that salesperson can flip to a Can Am Defender. And so when you think about it, it is in our best interest with marketing to try to get that customer as committed to which brand and which product they want as early in the journey as possible to make sure that they can't get flipped at the last minute at the dealership. 

[00:08:59] Ilyse: You know, when it comes to digital marketing, because it's such a niche product, are there specific digital channels you've found to have more potential to reach the type of consumers you're trying to reach? 

[00:09:20] Pam: You know, I would say it's less about it being one particular channel because at the end of the day, our, our customers are, they're all over the place 

[00:09:31] in terms of their habits, their consumption habits, and whatnot. They're 

[00:09:34] regular people. But what's more important to us is understanding the people who buy our products. So we do have our owners. We know who our owners are. 

[00:09:44] And we can do third party data appending, we can do look alike modeling to understand. We can't afford to go after maybe everyone who loves the outdoors. That wouldn't make financial sense. We may not be able to afford to go after everyone who owns one or two or 

[00:10:00] five acres of property or more around the country or the world. But what we can do is do look alike modeling and use that data with our media partners to try to get more narrowed in on: Who are the right hunters that we should be going after? Who are the right type of landowners? And part of it is not only being able to find the right people but understanding which populations which segments came to our ones ended up buying, and using that info to continually optimize. But also, lot of really, smart things these days where using our current inventory and using that our media to be able to reach out to the right show them this sportsman that you looked at recently is available right now at this dealer down the block and trying to [00:11:00] drive urgency there or using other types of data that we might have.

[00:11:04] whether they think they're shopping or not at that moment in time. 

[00:11:08] Damian: I wonder how you're connecting this because adventure tourism is a big deal right. And that's a growig market. Is that something you're growing into? 

[00:11:18] Pam: I, I Yes. So, several years ago we started something called Polaris Adventures. So certainly places rented off road vehicles in the past, but oftentimes they were the old ones kind of broken down and it was really important to us from a brand perspective. We're talking about if you're gonna do something from a brand perspective, build your brand. We wanted to make sure people were in the current vehicles, the most modern ones and the ones that we knew were going to give them the best experience. So we created something called Polaris Adventures. And you can go online and you can find Polaris Adventures and you can go to one of 270 locations. [00:12:00] 268 of them are in the United States.

[00:12:01] One is in Mexico. One's in New Zealand. And you can rent a Polaris Side by Side Razor. You can rent a Polaris Slingshot, which is a three wheel roadster. Think of a Batmobile. It looks like a Batmobile. it rides on road. You can rent an Indian motorcycle if you ride motorcycles. And so you can do that in all of these different markets. And I'll tell you, even though I work at the company, I have used Polaris Adventures. I've ridden in the dunes in Oregon. I've ridden in the desert in Arizona and Mexico. I've ridden in the mud trails of West Virginia, and all, all kinds of other markets. In each one of those is a different experience because the terrain is very different. 

[00:12:42] Rock crawling in is completely different being in the and is completely different than being different than dunes in a 

[00:12:59] Pam: It's an [00:13:00] amazing way to people experience it. And you know what? Not all go buy one some will never buy one. Some may buy maybe at a time in life when it fits them better. And others may just put it in their Instagram feed. And guess what? I promise this. If you were to do this activity and you were to put it, in your Instagram feed, it is the best FOMO ever. All of your friends are, you know, texting. Where are you? What are you doing? and they want a piece of that. So I think it's highly relevant in today's world. And I think we're just playing a part of this growing travel market. 

[00:13:36] Ilyse: So, much fun. have fOMO right now. just even talking about and you know, it's 

[00:13:48] Ilyse: You described your family not as the stereotypical sports kind of family, and I would imagine there's a bunch of Polaris customers that wouldn't qualify as the stereotypical power sports types of people. Are there any types of segments that you wouldn't expect that are interested in power sports vehicles?[00:14:00]

[00:14:08] Pam: So it's interesting if you think about maybe what you would expect to think about from traditional power sports customers. You know, you might think older white male and historically, maybe that's how the category had been, particularly with ATVs and whatnot. Like I said, half of our customers now are younger women multicultural. So let's blow that up right now. But what I will say is going back a number of years ago, We created a product called the slingshot Polaris slingshot.

[00:14:40] And like I said, it's a three wheeled vehicle. It rides on road. it's 5. 5 inches from the ground, open air cockpit. and it's very auto like, right? So now you can actually, get one that is automatic or manual. And, When we started with this vehicle, we assumed it was gonna be about performance because that's what a lot of power sports customers like.

[00:14:59] [00:15:00] And if you look at it, it kind of looks aggressive, so it looks like it's gonna go super fast. We marketed it. We even did demos on racetracks because it was all about performance. And it was doing okay, not phenomenal. And we actually looked at the data, and the data showed we had a much higher percentage of multicultural customers who own this vehicle, and that was really not typical of the industry.

[00:15:25] So we did consumer insights research to understand what brought them to Slingshot, why did they love it, and what we found was they weren't coming in because of performance. It was the style that really appealed to them and they loved that when they drove around in this slingshot heads turned.

[00:15:42] And when we said there's something to this, let's start marketing that way. First of all, I think the brand is 40 plus percent multicultural customers today. But on top of that, the white customers that are buying this love style, [00:16:00] The personalization. They love the same what's interesting is when you go slingshot meetups, a lot local groups, clubs that have organized and they all get together. 

[00:16:10] When you at 

[00:16:13] Damian: has 

[00:16:14] Pam: diverse group of people you've ever seen. You multicultural, old, young, it might not be a group of people you ever would have imagined congregating, but they are loving each other and checking out each other's slingshots and talking about getting together and how much they love it.

[00:16:32] And it's this common community that has brought these people together. And so I think we've learned some great lessons about. Sometimes you think you know, and one of the number one rules of marketing is, you know, you don't know, don't make assumptions. You need to actually listen to customers, learn from them and be willing to adapt. And that's been an awesome learning and really opened our eyes to opportunity within power sports. 

[00:16:57] Ilyse: that's a 

[00:16:57] good 

[00:16:58] Pam: the [00:17:00] things and to these there's of that look 

[00:17:11] Damian: vehicles. And then that goes out on social 

[00:17:13] Pam: is 

[00:17:13] Damian: that a whole 

[00:17:16] Pam: know, white Absolutely. You know what? You know what? Here's what I will tell you. Going back, I joined Polaris in 2015 and we had done some research on the Indian motorcycle brand and the path to purchase and

[00:17:32] back then, the number one way that people came in on the brand was word of mouth. And that's been probably for centuries and for decades, it's word of mouth. 

[00:17:43] Pam: And in motorcycles, it might been, know, yes, your friends and family, but go to a truck stop and someone else there and you're checking out their bike you're asking they ask you how you like it. The beautiful thing today that definitely still happens a lot. But with digital[00:18:00]

[00:18:00] Ilyse: kind 

[00:18:00] Pam: learn from and share with. People they don't even know. And so you see people when they're shopping for a vehicle, they will ask, how do you like yours? What do you like? What don't you like? And it's authentic word of mouth. And so from a brand perspective, if you create something wonderful and people love it and you make them feel valued and appreciated as customers, then hopefully they're the ones out there selling for you. 

[00:18:28] Ilyse: You know, you mentioned social media, and typically, at least, the younger generation are on social media. Is it more difficult to inspire those younger generations. They're known for being tied to their technology, I know the pandemic at least many people looked to go outside more. Now that it's more safe, is it harder to inspire those generations to think outside?

[00:19:03] Pam: I don't think so. what I will say is getting outside with friends and family and sharing experiences. is something people, especially our younger people love to do. I think a lot of our younger customers will tell you that if they're new to the workforce or if they're in school, you know, they feel handcuffed to their responsibilities. 

[00:19:26] Sometimes when you get outside, you put the phone in the glove box and you go out for a ride and you just you turn the tunes on. You have a great time. You'll get back to the phone later. No question. And you're going to stop and capture a lot of content and share with your friends on on Snapchat and whatnot.

[00:19:42] But it is 100 percent about sharing experiences, and they love that. But I will tell you, going back in time, Innovation has always fueled our category. That's just the new news. People always want the newest, latest thing. And for a long time, it was power, horsepower. Is it more [00:20:00] CCs? Is it, you know, bigger, better, stronger, faster? I will tell you, technology is playing a very large role now in what people are choosing to shop for. 

[00:20:10] So, a couple proof are, we have something called Ride Command. So, I want you to think about it. If you were off roading or going on a snowmobile ride, you're not on roads. And a lot of times you lose cell service out there. One of the biggest fears people have is getting lost. You're out there in the middle of the woods and you get lost. You're out there in the middle of the desert dunes, you get lost. We have ride command technology that the maps will work even when your cell phone service doesn't work. And that's super helpful. It also has a, capability ride. So say I out with different,

[00:20:46] Ilyse: probably 

[00:20:48] Pam: we want to ride together, but I don't want to ride so close that I'm inhaling your dust or your exhaust. So we out, but you might come to a fork in the road and take a left and I go to the right. Now we lose each other. [00:21:00] That's not fun either. The ride command has a group ride function where I can see all the other razors in my group. So we can ride together. I'm doing air quotes, but we can separate. And then I still know where everyone is. So technology, it's not technology for technology's sake. It's actually making the ride experience better. And I think that is extremely relevant to our younger customers.

[00:21:29] called group go five 

[00:21:32] Ilyse: sales climb. as, as more 

[00:21:43] Pam: want to spread for sure. You know, well, at my house, you know, at least in the beginning, I was Clorox wiping the groceries. So I think we all kind of have vague memories of those days and. Life wasn't very fun because you were trapped inside unless you could go outside on a walk or do something. And we saw our [00:22:00] business really sore because on one hand, from a recreational standpoint, it was something that you could do safely outside and actually think about off road riding. You could be riding with a bunch of friends and you could each be in your own vehicle. So you were safe. You're wearing a helmet. I spent that first summer of 2020. A lot of weekends out on our boat and out there, the world felt normal. So for sure we saw sales surge. 

[00:22:27] And we were concerned, though, thinking, Okay, this is great. But when people have other options to spend their money on, are they gonna just trade in all these vehicles and flood the market? And suddenly we're not gonna have a sustainable, you know, healthy business that we've been having. It's not the case.

[00:22:47] We actually look very much at our repurchase rates, and we look at short term one year. We look at three year. We look at five year. We look at 10 year. When you look at the one and three year repurchase rates, they are [00:23:00] very healthy and the five year repurchase rate is very, very strong, which tells you that the customers we brought in in 2020, 2021, they aren't just abandoning.

[00:23:12] They actually have found something that really works for them and they're continuing to come back and buy again. 

[00:23:18] And by the way, they're going to tell their friends and family. So we believe that, It's a, good example of I always say never waste a crisis. pandemic was tough for a lot of reasons, but it certainly gave our business a boost and brought in a lot of new customers. And it seems like it's a very healthy population we in.

[00:24:36] Damian: That's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. 

[00:24:42] Ilyse: The current Podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Fessy and Sydney Cairns.

[00:24:48] Damian: And remember,

[00:24:49] Pam: find the right show them how this could fit in with what they already do and make it better.

[00:24:56] Damian: I'm Damian. And

[00:24:57] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse. And

[00:24:58] Damian: we'll see you next time. And [00:25:00] if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

 

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Foxtel Media CEO Mark Frain dishes on how the customer and advertising experience are shifting amid the proliferation of streaming.

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damien Fowler.

[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

[00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week we're delighted to speak with Mark Fra, the CEO of Foxtail Media.

[00:00:10] Damian: Foxtel Media is the advertising arm of the Foxtel Group, one of Australia's leading media companies, with more than 4. 7 million subscribers.

[00:00:19] Ilyse: Like many legacy broadcasters, over the last decade, Foxtel has reinvented itself for the Netflix era, building on its pay TV subscription model by adding in streaming platforms such as Binge and Kayo. It supports streaming services.

[00:00:35] Damian: And last year, Foxtel introduced an ad tier on the service, following in the footsteps of Netflix and Disney We started by asking Mark about the state of the television advertising model in Australia this year.

[00:00:46] Mark: Yeah, I mean, I think like the rest of the world, the TV market here in Australia is, going through significant change with the growth of, all of the streaming platforms with many of the, add tiers and add capabilities starting [00:01:00] to, launch in the Australian marketplace. Probably what is pretty unique, in terms of the Australian marketplace is that there's currently three major freeware broadcasters that all have their own, digital, platforms as well.

[00:01:14] so they're managing transition from linear to digital themselves, but at the same time you've just got this enormous groundswell of video inventory coming from the streaming player. So we're, certainly getting towards a tipping point in the trends in the Australian TV marketplace at the moment.

[00:01:31] Damian: Mark, could you just, put into perspective the growth of streaming that you've seen at Foxtel?

[00:01:41] Mark: Foxtel has been on an enormous transformation for last four or five years. And if I look, probably four or five years ago, just under 10 percent of our subscribers were streaming customers. And if I look at where we are today, that number is just under [00:02:00] 70%. So a quantum growth in the type of customer we've got.

[00:02:04] And critically, what that has also meant is that in the last four or five years, the Foxtel customer base Has grown pretty much close to 100 percent from where it was previously, and that's all been down to, the growth of streaming. And secondly, if I look at it from a Foxtel Media, advertising perspective.

[00:02:27] And probably only three years ago that seven or eight percent of our advertising revenue came from digital. As we go into the next financial year, that number will be just under 60%. So we're the beneficiary of that change in customer base from Foxtel, from traditional broadcast TV business to one now that is, is leading and driving streaming the Australian marketplace.

[00:02:51] Damian: Yeah, in terms of Foxtel, could you talk us through your relationship between, your existing linear model and [00:03:00] your launching of an ad tier on Binge?

[00:03:03] Mark: Yeah. So traditionally, Foxtel has been the, major pay TV provider. In the Australian marketplace, with numerous, linear channels from sport, entertainment, news, all the typical, pay TV channels you would have, coupled with, two digital platforms, Foxtel Now, that have really been the IP services of Foxtel.

[00:03:26] And then over the last four to five years, the Foxtel Group. Has launched heavily into streaming. Firstly, it launched KO, a dedicated sports streaming platform with over 40 premium sports, including both the major codes locally in Australia and a lot of the global content like Formula One, as an example.

[00:03:50] About 18 months, two years after launch of KO, we then launched Binge. which is K. O. 's sister if you like, entertainment [00:04:00] platform backed by a lot of HBO, NBCU, content. So, made a significant jump, into streaming in the last three to four years. And that has allowed the Foxtel group to pretty much double its subscriber count, from being a traditional pay TV company to now one that plays heavily in streaming.

[00:04:19] Damian: You know, in the streaming ecosystem, which we all know is highly competitive, right now, everyone's looking for subscribers and numbers, what's the competitive advantage that Binge brings to the table?

[00:04:32] Mark: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I mean, number one, it's enormously competitive. I think table stakes now are a premium level of content. unfortunately from the global content producers that we work with, coupled with our local content, I think we've got a significant library of content that has debt. I think if you, scratch the surface on some of the content offerings, you don't get the depth of premium content.

[00:04:59] On [00:05:00] Binge, we've been very strict on running Four to five minutes of ads an hour on very tight on frequency capping just to make sure that, we give those customers that are buying into the value equation of subscription and advertising a very good customer experience, which includes both the content they're watching and also the advertising experience.

[00:05:22] Ilyse: would you say Binge competes with other streamers when it comes to like content acquisition, production, and then maybe like ad experience?

[00:05:33] Mark: Yeah. I think we're fortunate enough, that the way that almost the origins of the Foxtel pay TV business has given us relationships and longstanding content relationships with the likes of NBCU, Warner Brothers, Discovery, the BBC group, et cetera. So many of the big globally renowned, media businesses.

[00:05:59] [00:06:00] So that has allowed us to transition a lot of that content from the traditional pay TV channels. onto an on demand platform like Binge, and then we've been a significant investor in local content. So we've been able to both produce a number of Binge originals but at the same time leverage the existing local content we've already produced across the Foxtel group. Almost, I mean, we often describe it internally as one kitchen with many restaurants. and by that, I mean by the many different points of distribution, whether that be a linear paid TV channel, or whether that be a binge, on demand platform.

[00:06:45] so we talk a lot about, watchability as a term in our business and making sure that every platform that we represent, that the ad experience stacks up to be the most watchable experience for customers.

[00:06:59] Ilyse: And does the [00:07:00] content you have speak to specific audiences? Or are you finding that your audience is really across the board?

[00:07:11] Mark: There's no question. I think that's the beauty of the streaming platforms that various elements of kind of content bringing a very different audience. And we're in the streamer landscape, you're we're in this very much pause play mentality from a customer perspective. So if that content is so appealing for customers, they may come in.

[00:07:35] And binge on that content for X amount of weeks or months and then dip back out.

[00:07:40] Particularly with the under younger end of the market that come in and out and then maybe into another streaming platform where they've cited another bit of world kind of renowned content that's got heaps of social buzz with it.

[00:07:52] Ilyse: Mm hmm. Yeah, right? That's what I was gonna say.

[00:07:56] Damian: I think. Not to malign as a Gen X er. As [00:08:00] a millennial, I'm not

[00:08:03] Ilyse: anything. Um, and so, that's interesting when you talk about, content in that way. and that has a lot to do with, viewer retention, as you mentioned. Is there anything else that, Foxtail is envisioning or, strategizing? to really hold onto those viewers or attract new ones.

[00:08:25] Mark: Yeah, I mean, I, I think from our perspective, we've gotta, we've gotta continue to evolve, the customer and product experience. There is, there's not a moment to stand still in this streaming environment. whether that be improving the. The viewer quality from HD to 4K to 8K. I think customer expectations are so high.

[00:08:50] And whatever we do, in terms of the content experience and the ad experience, we just got to make sure that total value equation, stacks up.

[00:09:00] Ilyse: Yeah, you know, in the U. S. at least, bundling is very popular. especially if you're a major network like Disney that's bundling like three different of its like streaming services. What about when it comes to like partnerships with you guys? Are you looking into any of those types of offerings when it comes to like bundling?

[00:09:22] Mark: Or, or are you looking to like partner with any network or streamer? , is kind of partnership is embedded in our model. whether that be, as I mentioned before, that the content partners, the Warner Brothers, the NBC use, of this world. So we've had a long standing relationships and partners with them moving forward and going back to the earlier points upon the value equation.

[00:09:49] even in the core, Foxtel set top box business over time, we've continued to add, all of the streaming platforms to that service, whether it be Netflix, whether it be [00:10:00] Amazon, whether it be Paramount. So, customers have felt they were getting more of their content choices, more of their streaming platforms in, in one place.

[00:10:10] So there's been a level of partnership with the streamers right from the outset even, with the core set, top box business, and we've carried that on, to where we are. today, in the last, few weeks we launched, Hubble, which is our, new streaming ion business. and within that, platform we've got a stack and save, opportunity for customers where.

[00:10:33] to your point on bundling, the more subscriptions they have they get a bottom line discount and I think there's so many customers out there I put myself in that bracket that you sign up to numerous streaming services and half the time You don't know exactly how many you've got and how much you're paying for.

[00:10:50] Um, so we've actually centralized that into One platform, one invoice, with a stack and save, kind of discount position for customers that have multiple [00:11:00] streaming options. So partnership is embedded in our model, no question.

[00:11:03] Damian: Yeah, that's

[00:11:04] Ilyse: easy. I wish we had that here, honestly. Because there's not one, really.

[00:11:08] Damian: Yeah, right.

[00:11:09] Ilyse: Kind of have to look back on everything you're charging, and that's, your card, and that's, that's

[00:11:16] Mark: it doesn't take long for months to pass and realize you're still paying for Yeah,

[00:11:24] Mark: In terms of like your kind of customer research or, your audience first approach, what are you hearing from your customers vis a vis, ads, the ad, not the ad experience per se, but whether, ads are a game changer for them, you know, in this era of kind of subscription fatigue and all of that.

[00:11:43] Damian:  Are customers receptive to that ad load you're talking about and is that basically a selling point for Binge and your streaming channels when it comes to advertisers and attracting advertisers to those platforms?

[00:11:57] Mark: in everything we do from a, [00:12:00] an advertising perspective to, respect our customers. We've got a very, customer first mentality within the Foxtel group. It's one of our, it's one of our values. And to your point, we test, the various levels. As I mentioned earlier, engagement and attention to our customers.

[00:12:17] in terms of their level of response to the content and the advertising. And we kind of, we've seen their perceptions of, the binge brand hold really strong as we've added advertising to that platform. And you've got to look at the economic backdrop here. disposable incomes are under significant kind of, pressure, the hike in interest rates globally over the last.

[00:12:43] 12 to 18 months have put enormous pressure on household spending. So I think the introduction of the ad tiers, not just the binge, but for a lot of the global players has been a, another, kickstart to, subscriber [00:13:00] growth levels, across the industry. And it just gives customers optionality.

[00:13:06] and probably what was interesting When we added advertising to the binge platform, clearly we've done some modeling on what might be the churn levels of customer out of that tier and what might be the spin up into the next tier without advertising. And in both kind of cases, number one, the actual churn level in terms of those customers pulling out the platform was well under expectations.

[00:13:39] in the zero point something kind of percent and a handful of more customers of spun up. So net, we were left with a scalable audience, even probably bigger than we actually modeled for our advertisers. So it was a really good story. So I think the research got us in the right place in terms of the ad experience we put forward.

[00:14:00] Ilyse: I know we've written quite a bit about how, like, streaming is democratizing, sports in a way for, maybe perhaps, smaller brands to get in on sports, versus in a linear environment where it's, More expensive, usually. is that what you're experiencing? Is there a difference in brands wanting to advertise on linear versus streaming? Or, and how is that like playing out?

[00:14:25] Mark: it's a good question. A lot of our, premium brands have transitioned into streaming at the same time to ensure they've got. Yeah. Brand presence and share a voice across both live linear and into streaming, but you're right that there's no doubt it's given opportunities for smaller brands to get on board and be involved in live sport, which historically may have been, cost prohibitive.

[00:14:52] and what I would say in almost summary of that trend, we've, on our, major [00:15:00] sporting, properties here in Australia, whether that be the cricket, whether that be the AFL or the NRL, which I've already mentioned, in the last couple of years, we've had a record number of advertising partners on all of those kind of codes.

[00:15:12] And that's been the blend of those big premium advertisers that have always been involved in sport, that have had the financial bandwidth to do so. Plus, A multitude of new brands that have come on, streaming. So we've got more, if you like major sports partners than you've ever had before.

[00:15:30] Ilyse: I feel like it's also pretty interesting because when it comes to live sports streaming kind of offers an environment where, I don't know you can watch them at any point. For one thing, and then two, we've, at least we've written about how some more like niche sports are appearing in streaming environments, versus linear, and I'm curious what you think about that. Pickleball.

[00:16:01] Mark: Great example. very timely, actually. last night I was, fortunate enough to be out with, wheelchair rugby Australia. and as an example, we brought, their content onto the KO platform, probably four years ago now. And what that has done to that code in particular, it's allowed them to grow exponentially in the number of teams that now play wheelchair rugby in the Australian marketplace, the number of participants they've got.

[00:16:36] the number of females that are now playing it, and across those three or four years, the quality of that team has meant that they've been able to, they've won the World Cup, they've won the World Championships, and they're off to, the Olympics, later this year.

[00:16:53] So, outside of the big ticket, sports, It's also great to show the impact you could [00:17:00] have on other sports that wouldn't be kind of, that aren't out there of competing for sports rights. It's a very different model about how you support them and their corporate growth moving forward.

[00:17:12] Ilyse: know, it, it seems, even in Australia, it's a very fragmented media ecosystem. How are you thinking about measuring audiences, especially now with the rise of, alternative currencies? what's, the Aussie gold standard,

[00:17:31] Mark: it's a fascinating question and I, myself and my team spend a lot of time, observing, reading, going to the U. S., the U. K. and observing the trends. And over the last probably three to four years, I mean, there has been a An explosion of alternate currencies in the U. S. when you look at the likes of, video amp and others taking the challenge to Nielsen, we observed that.

[00:17:56] And whilst I don't think we're going to get to the [00:18:00] same level of different currencies in the Australian marketplace, I think you will see, publishers Probably grab the accountability of measurement themselves. moving forward. in this market, we've got, post town, which is a kind of, Nielsen supported, service and from a Fox sale perspective, we're part of that.

[00:18:24] Industry standard, but we also recognize that we've got, set up box data with IP return path. We've got multiple streaming platforms. So a there's a role for us to make sure We leverage, that data probably more than we ever have. and that's not just to use it, internally in terms of retention and everything else you use your own data for.

[00:18:52] But how do we actually use that for not just targeted advertising? How do we use it as a currency [00:19:00] moving forward? Because the depth of that data is so strong.

[00:19:05] Now, While you were stating some of the various partnerships that you do have. And I'm just curious because it sounds like so many. how do you possibly manage all the partnerships? Especially with Foxtail's, yearly roadmap. I

[00:19:24] it's a great question. I think, fortunately, a lot of, the content deals that the Foxtel business has is, Number one, they're multi year agreements, and therefore, the actual, the start and renegotiation dates, a lot of, a lot of those content deals are spread out across multiple years, so that gives us an opportunity to probably manage the heavy lifting part of those deals, which is often the renegotiation, and the work to move forward to continue a deal.

[00:19:58] [00:20:00] But I think, this is not just, on the content side, this is certainly on the advertising side. One piece of feedback that we continually we get and probably more so than ever right now is the importance of senior relationships in the industry. Never have we seen probably an influx of such scale in terms of global streaming competitors coming to the market, particularly on The advertising and add to your side.

[00:20:35] And one thing that I think we can, that can continue to stand the same good state is the senior level of relationships that we hold in the industry. And that's not, that's not exclusive to Australia. I think that's in any market. and that's one part that. We take very seriously in terms of how we manage, our partnerships, whether they be content or advertiser [00:21:00] related.

[00:21:00] Damian: I guess we'd like to get a perspective of your, year in view. what's exciting you about the next six months?

[00:21:09] Mark: I think going back to the point of kind of competition, we'll have, Amazon Prime will launch, its, advertising service, from a streaming video perspective later this year. Um, Paramount Plus have just announced the launch of their, ad tier. So there's enormous activity and interest in the category.

[00:21:29] So our focus is number one, to be part of that growth curve in streaming video, if not leading in many, many areas, and probably one of the areas that I'm being truly honest, I wouldn't have forecast that it. Thank you. our involvement as a business, whether that be Foxtel Media or me personally, in audiences and in measurement, I've never been as personally involved, in that area.

[00:21:59] And [00:22:00] I think there's a, there's an opportunity to get that right. and most importantly, getting that stands us in great stead for future growth. So seeing an explosion in both currencies and measurement, attention, engagement, and new metrics. So that feels like the new battleground for us moving forward and one that from a Foxtel perspective, we want to make sure that we lead.

[00:22:27] Mark: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:22:33] Ilyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Cat Vessey and Sydney Cairns.

[00:22:39] Damian: And remember I'm Damian.

[00:22:41] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:22:42] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:22:47] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

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Major League Soccer’s VP of Brand Marketing, Jesse Perl, joins The Current Podcast to discuss how young people are growing more interested in soccer, the league’s deal with Apple TV+, and the importance of building local support for MLS teams.

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

 

TTD_S8_E10_MLS//JESSE PERLMAN

Ilyse Liffrieng: (00:01)

I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

Damian Fowler: (00:02)

And I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse Lieffring: (00:03)

And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Damian Fowler: (00:10)

This week we're delighted to speak with Jesse Pearl, the VP of Brand Marketing at Major League Soccer 

Ilyse Lieffring: (00:16)

For Millennials and Gen Zers. It almost feels like the MLS has been around forever, but actually the league wasn't founded until the USA's successful bid to host the 1994 FIFA World Cup. Before then, the US just wasn't a serious contender in the soccer game or football as it's commonly called across the world.

Damian Fowler: (00:34)

Times have certainly changed, but the league still has to compete with the likes of sports juggernauts like the NFL, which has long reaped higher viewership and fandom in the US. Jesse talks to us about the unique challenges the MLS faces compared to other sports leagues and how he's prepping for the upcoming 2026 FIFA World Cup and how he envisions MLS as a brand.

Jesse Perlman: (00:57)

I feel really kind of privileged to, you know, be in the role that I am because I think brand really guides how we think about what MLS is and, and what we stand for in the world. And I think there's no real separation, no real daylight between the MLS brand and and MLS. And I think it's really, it's kind of the, the DNA and and the heartbeat of who we are. And I think one of the first things about the MLS brand that's really important is that we are proudly North American. There's a lot of stuff in the world, there's a lot of sports in the world, there's a lot of soccer in the world. And being North American, being kind of uniquely North American, this idea of creating our own North American version of what soccer means is actually really powerful. And I think if, if we look at all these different places across North America, the US and Canada, where MLS is thriving, I think it is about being able to tap into something that really represents, you know, what those cities are.

Jesse Perlman: (01:49)

There's a kind of an attitude and a spirit of North America that is really kind of transcendent in culture, right? I think North American culture itself is, is an export. And for us it's this idea of being really positive and confident, but in a really sort of positive way. So this kind of infectious positive North American spirit and attitude where we're kind of getting to remix the best of international soccer as well as the best of North American sports traditions and kind of make our own thing out of it. We've got playoffs, right? That's not something that happens in soccer, but I think we just kind of witnessed why it's, why it's great. And all of that sort of creates this idea of, of another part of our brand, which is this idea that, you know, without overstating it, it's a soccer movement here that's happening in, in North America that's kind of sweeping North America. So how we get to all that really is through our supporter groups, our supporter culture, the TFOs, the chance, the Kapos, all the things that they kind of bring to the party is, um, it's really kind of the secret sauce of all of this.

Damian Fowler: (02:45)

And what's fascinating about this as well is the fast evolution of this. I want to sort of date myself and say I arrived in this country just after college in 1994, and that was when the US last time the US hosted the World Cup and now we we're seeing it's gonna be hosting it again with Canada and Mexico in 2026. So that's basically three decades, you know, and you've seen this tremendous growth of professional soccer. Could you talk a little bit about those bookends and you know, how you've seen the trajectory of the sport, how quickly the sport has grown in those three decades?

Jesse Perlman: (03:16)

It's pretty staggering, and I think even the biggest optimist, I don't think would've bet that we'd get to where we are as quickly as we did. The 2026 World Cup is such a great kind of marker to, to kind of measure these things because you know, our story, the story of MLS starts with the 1994 World Cup for sure, right? We fulfilled what the hope and the potential, you know, was, you know, we launched in 96, you know, on the heels of the 94 World Cup. And by the way, that's in no way to say that we're declaring victory in its job done for us. I think to be in 29 cities, to have the amount of soccer specific stadiums we have to have the support that we have in these MLS communities that are, you know, settin record attendance to look at media partnerships like Apple that I think are rewriting the scripts in sports media to have the current reigning ballon d’or World Cup champion greatest player of all time messy here in our league, you know, to look at the young up and coming players, homegrown players, stars from, you know, some of the most storied teams in in South America and players that'll also, you know, will sell for record fees that go on to win Champions league games.

Jesse Perlman: (04:26)

And, and so I think it's really, I think the complete picture of everything that we could have hoped to set out to do. But for sure, you know, the the best is still yet to come.

Ilyse Lieffring: (04:35)

But you know, North America, particularly the US I would say, aren't known for being big soccer fans. So what would you say are like the challenges and then the opportunities of marketing soccer in this context?

Jesse Perlman: (04:49)

You know, I do think it's changing when you look at youth, when you look at Gen Z, when you look at six to 14 and 14 to 18, and these critical ages of where fandom is really, you know, set and takes root, soccer's a top sport of interest, that's been the trend and that trend is continuing and it's really favorable for us as a sport. You know, millennials, right? Are, are now parents of young kids and, and we know the influence that parents have on the interest of, of their children. And there are some kind of studies came out, uh, recently naming MLS as a top 10 fastest growing brand along among millennials right there alongside our, our great partner, you know, apple tv. So especially as marketers means that we've just gotta constantly think about how do we infiltrate culture in all kinds of creative and, and unexpected ways that are, that are true to us.

Jesse Perlman: (05:36)

We've got nothing but respect and admiration for the other North American sports leagues, whether that's the NFL or NBA or I think what we've got all is respect and admiration. I think we're also able to kind of look at, you know, some of those traditional North American leagues as traditional. We really feel like we get the permission to to be the enemy of tradition sometimes. And, and, and we love that. So I think kind of being able to stand for the things that differentiate us is ultimately how I think we'll continue to, to win over time.

Ilyse Lieffring: (06:03)

Are there any numbers you can point to that show the growth of the MLS over these past three decades?

Jesse Perlman: (06:09)

Big picture. There's, you know, there's probably a few things that are, that do really kind of stand out and I think kind of signal the continued kind of really explosive growth. Um, you know, one of the most important in sports is attendance. And we're continuing to set record attendance year over year. We just had another record year. That's a huge indicator. You know, ultimately there's um, we're in entertainment, right? And we're competing against, you know, sitting at home on your couch and binge watch and Netflix and you know, going to the latest restaurant and whatever else you can do. And I think for people to be motivated to go out there, go to the stadiums in record numbers kind of says it all. And I think in addition to that, we can look at things like valuation of an MLS franchise. You know, I believe LAFC was reported in Forbes as just crossing the, uh, the billion dollar threshold for franchise valuation.

Jesse Perlman: (06:56)

I could tell you when I joined in 2007, 2008, that was not the value of an MLS franchise. And all those kind of economic indicators I think are, are really healthy. And um, even if it's not necessarily an exact quantified metric, you know, the ability to go out there and, and have a, you know, media partnership like Apple again, right, or Adidas partnership in these best in in category global brands, I think again is another indicator. And I think the last one that's worth mentioning is the brick and mortar kind of growth. Here again, I think when I started we had, you know, a handful of soccer specific stadiums and now virtually all of our teams are, if they're not already playing in a soccer specific stadium, they're in the process of open the doors on one.

Damian Fowler: (07:35)

One other thing that stands out to me is as to go back to that nineties thing, I remember when I came here, I could, it was hard to actually find, you know, international games on the dial, on cable channels. Obviously in the last few years we've seen this sort of flourishing of the game across many streaming channels. I mean, you can watch the Premier League on Peacock, you can watch Champions League on Paramount Plus and media and the presence of media is such an important driver of fandom. Is that one of the big factors for the MLS?

Jesse Perlman: (08:07)

No doubt. Similarly, right? Like growing up, you know, in the nineties being a huge soccer fan, right? You had to work so hard to seek it out. I remember running to the Barnes and Nobles to get my monthly magazine of 442 or World Soccer and um, that was how you stayed current. Now there's so much access, right? Ultimately I think that's a good thing for us, more people watching more soccer. I think it just, you know, increases the amount of interest and curiosity and, and conversation. And there's certainly a lot of, you know, competition for eyeballs. And you know, what we're trying to win more than anything is as hearts and minds. And, um, it's great for you to be a fan of other soccer teams and clubs and leagues and we really do embrace that. But if you're here in the US and Canada, you really can't get up close to that, right? And so being a fan of MLS just means something different. That's where we really feel like it's a huge differentiator that access, you know, to kind of be a part of an MLS community.

Damian Fowler: (09:00)

Can you talk a little bit about the significance of the Apple TV season pass?

Jesse Perlman: (09:05)

It's a game changer. It really is in so many ways. I mean, I think the first thing for me is as a marketer, as a, as a kind of brand leader, there's probably no brand that's more recognized and admired than Apple on the planet, the ability for us to become an Apple brand, which I think is what's happened, right? It changes the perception, the reach of Apple, the scale, the reach, the deep love and admiration for their brand that people have. All those are really just kind of the starting points. But when you get inside the sort of Apple world and you kind of realize and learn like how many incredible layers there are to their growing and expanding ecosystem of products and services and ways for MLS to show up and, and be a part of that, you know, we just officially wrapped our first season together.

Jesse Perlman: (09:50)

When we kind of think about all the things we were able to do as co marketers, even year one, it's been a really fantastic starting point and we had some incredible activations around Messi, his game here in New York. We were able to work with our friends and partner with them at New York, Red Bulls and Apple to have this, you know, kind of takeover in Times Square of a live viewin party that sort of traveled around the world. That moment of people gather in Times Square to to watch Messi on a giant Times Square billboard. And I think some of the real sort of inside culture things that we did with Apple Music, you know again, partnering with great club like Nashville had a kit inspired by a Johnny Cash, the Man in black kit working with the Johnny Cash Estate and Apple Music. We all kind of came together working with some incredible music artists and talents to cover Johnny Cash songs. And so these really kind of integrated kind of campaigns that we were able to to do. Um. 

Damian Fowler: (10:42)

I wanted to ask you, uh, Jesse, about the kind of cross-fertilization with international leagues. You know, I'm a big fan of Liverpool, I watch the Premier League every weekend and you know, obviously there's La Liga and then, you know, la bundesliga, all of those things, you know, and football from south of the border. How does that work? How is that an important factor in driving fandom and is it a sort of cross fertilization or is it like a separate kind of group of fans?

Jesse Perlman: (11:07)

No, I think, I think it's really additive are clubs that are really succeeding and have these, the thriving kind of fan bases that they do. Those fans are also fans of other international soccer teams and, and we love that it's part of the, the thing that we love about soccer as a sport for anybody that truly loves it, it's the kind of international dimension is like what makes it different than other sports, right? For me personally, it's been a lens to kind of learn about the world and learn about other cultures and it really kind of expands people. We're never shying away from that. I think we want everybody who's a fan and has a team in, whether it's in, you know, the Premier League or the Bundesliga or Serie A or anywhere else around the world, or Argentina or Mexico, Liga MX, you know, we want them to know that they're invited to still be loyal fans of, of those teams, whether it's passed down from generation to generation or something they discovered on their own. 'cause all that is complimentary, right? I think, you know, that's part of what being a soccer fan, you know, looks like. So we, we embrace it.

Ilyse Lieffring: (12:05)

As much as it's a global game. It's very much made up of very localized fans at the same time, how important are local efforts in each city? For instance, building stadiums or the infrastructure, how is that key to driving that local support or community supports?

Jesse Perlman: (12:25)

Really as important as anything. And I think it's been what's defined this incredible growth period for MLS. We were kind of chatting earlier about like what it means to be North American and the importance of this kind of brick and mortar investment and building these like incredible cathedrals to soccer. And I think not just building stadiums, but building 'em in the right places, right? Building these in the kind of heart of the downtowns. I think it's made all the difference and, and continues to, and it's really timely. I mean, we just had MLS cup in columbus@lower.com field, brand new state-of-the-art best in sports anywhere in the world placed to watch live sports. That stadium was rocking, you know, it was completely electric fan, 28, 30,000 strong in the rain, right? Singing enchanting for 90 minutes and the streets were alive, the city was alive. And you don't have to go back that far to just kind of be reminded of how this franchise went through like one of the most traumatic things you could go through in sports, right?

Jesse Perlman: (13:20)

There was ownership change, there was concern about what the crew still be around. It's an emphatic like not only are they here, but they just won MLS cup again. On and off the field I think it's so important that it's so local. You know, I think what Columbus represents to crew fans is, you know, is so different than the team that, that came to play them in Columbus. These clubs, they represent really different ideas and communities and, and fan bases, but the common thread is that what they really represent is their cities and, and the idea of their cities in this moment in 2023, I don't think there are brands that better represent Columbus and you know, how it sees itself. I think it being local and localized and really kind of deeply rooted in these, you know, local communities and cultures has been the difference maker.

Damian Fowler: (14:07)

As I mentioned, I'm a Liverpool fan, and Anfield is, you know, very much a Liverpudlian tradition and they have the traditions there. And at the same time, if you look at the field, it's absolutely international. And so it's that beautiful kind of conjunction of the local and the global. Wanted to ask you about that international presence, you know, the, the MLS of course has been drawing headlines. How do you see the star power playing into your marketing efforts?

Jesse Perlman: (14:31)

It's another part of what makes sports sports, right? Star players. It's another part of why people tune into sports, why they care about sports and love sports. And you know, certainly people are fans of teams and clubs and, but people also really care about players, right? And some of them will become fans of a team because they're fans of a player. The other thing that's so special about sports, and I think even more so with soccer is who's gonna be the next star? The idea of like the emerging stars, especially we think about these homegrowns the future of the US men's and for the US and Canada national teams. And you know, I think as we look at, you know, Messi, right? We're equally excited about Benjamin Cremaschi learning from a guy like Lionel Messi every day, right? These kind of, you know, future world beaters that are coming through MLS and we're really spending a lot of time and, and energy and focus on how do we continue to hype up all the right players, but especially these, these up and commerce, these emerging stars and really sort of build their brands on and off the field and help more people kind of, you know, fall in love with them because they have incredible stories and we're gonna be hearing about them for years to come.

Damian Fowler: (15:35)

I heard that the Messi shirt in that iconic pink sold out instantly, impossible to get.

Jesse Perlman: (15:41)

It is, uh, I can tell you firsthand, I, uh, I failed as an uncle on, uh, on Hanukkah to come up with the goods for my nephews. So it is truly, it is a scarce product.

Ilyse Lieffring: (15:51)

You know, along with more like just sports documentaries out there on streaming channels, there's also like the rise of live sports at the same time. How would you say the rise in like live sports and streaming contribute to the rise of soccer overall in the us?

Jesse Perlman: (16:06)

Well, I think it's only increased the amount of soccer that's available for sure. I think we've got more access to more soccer here in the US than just about anywhere in the world. You know, there's probably a lot of people that'd be surprised to learn that, but you know, as a Liverpool fan, I'm sure you'd agree, there's a lot of people in the UK that like, man, that is a pain point in life is just how hard it can be to, to kind of watch the, so you wanna watch and the amount of blackouts and how you kind of just gotta jump through hoops to, uh, be able to watch games sometimes. And so we're spoiled for choice here, and I think streaming has only increased that to me it's an indicator of this is the sport for the future, right? Gen Z and, and younger fans, linear TV is not where they're spending their time, right? They're spending their time on devices and streaming and places like YouTube and, and places like Apple tv. And so I think it's great for us that we're ahead of the curve on that respect as far as kind of live games, and I think we're just so well positioned for that.

Ilyse Lieffring: (16:59)

The US also gets to host the 2026 FIFA World Cup along, of course with Canada and Mexico. How are you planning to ladder up your marketing to this massive global event,

Jesse Perlman: (17:13)

I guess can't reveal all the secrets, but No, it's very much in focus for us and to really be thinking multi-year about not just how does the marketing kind of ramp up to the World's Cup, but how does all of our activity as a business really deliberately think about what that's gonna mean for us. I think what's really interesting is during the World's Cup is gonna be the noisiest loudest, most crowded for anybody else marketer. I think everybody's gonna be trying to find a way to talk about the World Cup and soccer, whether, whether they've got the official, you know, FIFA rights to do that or not. And I, and I think all that noise is gonna be, is gonna be good, good, right? I think soccer is just gonna really bleed into the mainstream conversation, uh, in a way that'll kind of eclipse, um, you know, anything before it.

Jesse Perlman: (17:59)

But I think as, as you know, as marketers here at MLS I, I think the most critical moment for us is actually gonna be what do we do the day the World Cup ends? You know? And I think that's really the incredible opportunity for us to seize because, you know, that kind of World Cup Fever that everybody's gonna catch, the World Cup's gonna be incredible, but it's gonna, it's gonna come and go. There's gonna be a lot of people here that aren't gonna be able to make it to World Cup games that maybe wanted to or maybe wanted to take their kids to it, or it got priced out, or there's only so many seats in so many games. And for MLS to really make sure everybody knows where they can find us, how they can find us, again, I think meet that, meet that moment is, is gonna be, uh, I think it's really gonna be the, the big unlock for us.

Damian Fowler: (18:46)

And that's it for season eight of the current podcast. Stay tuned for our next season of interviews with the industry's top marketing leaders.

Ilyse Lieffring: (18:54)

The current is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The Trade Desk team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce

Damian Fowler: (19:02)

And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report, our weekly digest of what's making news across the open internet. And remember,

Jesse Perlman: (19:14)

Especially as marketers, means that we've just gotta constantly think about how do we infiltrate culture in all kinds of creative and, and unexpected ways that are, that are true to us.

Damian Fowler: (19:25)

I'm Damian,

Ilyse Lieffring: (19:26)

And I'm Ilyse. 

Damian Fowler: (19:27)

And we'll see you next time.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Now firmly entrenched in Americans’ shopping habits, Instacart is eyeing the growing retail media space. Laura Jones, CMO of Instacart, joins The Current Podcast to share the strategy behind the company’s tie-ups with Peacock and Roku and how she’s reaching shoppers by framing them as the COOs of their households.

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

 

Damian: (00:01)

I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse: (00:02)

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing And

Damian: (00:04)

Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Ilyse: (00:10)

This week we're delighted to talk with Laura Jones, the chief marketing Officer of Instacart.

Damian: (00:16)

Laura has been on a rampage at Instacart since she left Uber and joined the company. In June, 2021, Laura launched the brand's first integrated brand campaign, built an internal creative studio and performance media function, and scaled the marketing department five times to more than 150 people. What

Ilyse: (00:35)

Started as a grocery delivery service quickly boomed during the pandemic to the point where Instacart now has over 7 million monthly active orders and works with 1400 retailers growing into areas like retail media, on and off its platform.

Laura: (00:55)

So Instacart started just over a decade ago and started out as a grocery delivery company. And then when you fast forward to today, the business looks a lot different, the world has changed a lot, there's been a global pandemic and we've come out the other side and Instacart has really evolved over the course of this journey. So we've transformed from being just grocery, just delivery to now a service that has many more retailers on the platform. Of course, uh, most of America's top grocers, but other verticals that we serve like beauty with Sephoras, um, home improvement with Lowe's, as well as of course different modalities. So there's delivery, there's pickup, and we've extended into, uh, B2B offerings as well. So we have a retail enablement platform that our retailers use to power some of their online grocery services and pickups and really continuing to innovate now even getting into in-store.

Laura: (01:54)

So really thinking about how, you know, in a post pandemic world, customers are really shopping in a more omnichannel way. It's not just delivery, it's not just in-store, it's much more of a hybrid. So we've developed technologies like caper carts or carrot tags, other in-store tools that help bring some of the magic of online shopping into that in-store experience. So you can see that the company has really evolved and as a result, you know, the way that we're thinking about our brand and the future of innovation at the company has to evolve and keep pace as well.

Ilyse: (02:30)

On that note, from a brand perspective, how have you really worked to evolve the identity of Instacart from that delivery service to a major media platform? Now

Laura: (02:40)

We really wanted to build across all four sides of the marketplace and make sure that we were building a brand that would mirror the dynamism is of the business. So really wanted to root ourselves in, in our heritage and in our core equity, which of course is the carrot, and really stretch that, um, into a new design system that would enable us to show up and in a really seamless way in all these new different touchpoints that that we have. And so a lot of what my journey has been has been really trying to build out that marketing team across the four sides of the marketplace and build out all the different functions. So of course, continuing to double down on our performance marketing strength, but also building out functions like product marketing, brand marketing, making sure we have great co-marketing teams to partner with both our retailers and our advertisers so that we can go to market in partnership with all of them. And what that enables for us is not just to be a marketing team, but also to help enable other marketing teams. From a co-marketing standpoint, we have, uh, 5,500 brands on our platform from category leaders to emerging brands. And this next chapter of marketing is really about partnering with those brands as well as with our retail partners to make sure that we are going to market using all of our channels together and really helping provide insights to help each of their business grow.

Ilyse: (04:12)

How do you feel all these additives have really helped differentiate the brand, not only from a consumer standpoint, but perhaps to advertisers as

Laura: (04:23)

Well? One of the things that this has unlocked for us is the ability to do true full funnel marketing. So instead of just capturing inbound demand through, um, those classical performance channels, we've also been able to really start to generate more demand by going out there and reaching a broader audience and telling a more robust story across channels. So we see that by showing up in both upper and lower funnel and doing so in a coordinated way, we're able to really grow the category and deepen the use cases for existing users as well. So it's been a really critical, uh, business driver that we can go out with a full funnel program. Then from a advertiser standpoint, because of this depth that we have and the level of sophistication that we have when it comes to our own consumer marketing, I think that gives us a, a really thoughtful edge when it comes to thinking about how we're building tools for our advertisers.

Laura: (05:23)

So of course, I think the reason that most advertisers come to Instacart in the beginning is just because we are so close to the point of purchase, we are quite literally at the point of purchase. So what we find is that our ads on average deliver more than a 15% incremental sales lift and in some cases twice that for our brand partners. So it's a really valuable service to, to our partners, but again, inspired by our own journey, we've thought a lot about creating more spaces in the upper funnel for our advertisers. So of course, sponsored product listings and pricing and promotional discounts are, are wonderful, but once you've tapped out that kind of low hanging fruit from a demand standpoint, you need to generate more demand. What I was talking about, you know, from our own first party experience and the way that we do that is through introducing new formats that help drive more consideration for consumers that might be a bit higher up in that purchase funnel.

Laura: (06:19)

And so what that looks like for us are shoppable video ads, shoppable display ads in ways to help introduce customers to new categories or products that they might not have been actively considering before that shopping session, but we can actually really make that case to get them focused on it, get their attention, and then help drive that purchase and really be able to measure again, the impact of, of those different formats. The final frontier, which I think will bring the two together and that we've started on this year is that co-marketing I was mentioning. So we can move up the funnel within our own platform, but I think the, the really exciting piece for me is what does it look like when we move off platform and go to market together with a brand partner and really make their existing multi-channel campaigns shoppable regardless of what channel they're occurring on. Um, the co-marketing campaign we did earlier this year with AB InBev, um, in the NFL playoffs, um, making their TV campaign shoppable and integrating it with our CRM system so that we could deliver push notifications timed to hit folks as they're viewing TV ads. And we've done a ton of that over the past year and we're really excited to see the momentum that this program has in addition to our on-platform ads.

Damian: (07:37)

Could you talk a little bit more about how you use customer data to kind of close that gap between the top and the bottom of the funnel?

Laura: (07:46)

We take data protection and privacy very seriously. We don't tell consumer data to our retail partners, nor do we share competitive data across retailers or brands. Uh, what we do do is leverage anonymized, aggregated insights. And I think that's especially powerful in this world where our industry is grappling with signal loss and looming third party cookie deprecation. And so that's why this data is really valuable and can be provide a lot of insights to our partners as we think about, you know, how can we more effectively target folks at different stages in the funnel. From our standpoint, we have an incredibly deep understanding of online purchase behavior. Our customers are building large baskets, they're spending a lot of time to engage. They're doing their primary weekly grocery shop on the platform. And so we have a lot of insights about the, the purchase behavior that underlies that.

Laura: (08:44)

We can also surface insights about complimentary or adjacent purchasing behavior. So for example, if someone's buying peanut butter, it's pretty likely that they might also be buying jelly. And and some of those are obvious, like the ones I just described, but some of them are maybe not as obvious. So cat and dog food customers are more likely to purchase coffee on Instacart than the average Instacart consumer, that that is not as obvious as peanut butter and jelly or customers who buy diapers are more likely to also purchase jerky and trail mix. So if you imagine, you know, being a marketer and having access to this data, it really helps you, number one with the targeting. And number two, just getting those kind of deeper insights that help you have those aha moments that might help you think about your consumer in a whole new way.

Ilyse: (09:28)

Now in 2022, you introduced display ads onto your platform. How important are these units really to those big CPG companies? And then how do these display units actually help the smaller brands compete with the larger ones?

Laura: (09:43)

Yeah, so display ads are a great way for brands looking to bring engaging, targeted creative content to consumers. And this really helps with driving brand awareness, new product introductions and inspiration while people are browsing those digital aisles. And so these kinds of top of funnel units, um, can be especially useful I think for emerging brands that might be less familiar to consumers or for new or emerging categories where there might be more education required. And then for larger brands, shoppable display units are a great way to showcase complimentary products across the portfolio and really help with that regimen building. And it does so all within one shoppable ad unit. And of course that's a adjacent to all of the other kinds of ad units that A CPG can purchase, like a sponsored product listing or pricing and promotional discount. So you can really tell a story and then provide incentives for consumers to convert and get that full closed loop measurement all at once.

Ilyse: (10:44)

This past advertising week, New York Instacart announced it would begin to work with brands to reach customers off platform for brands this can turn their Instacart approach into more of an omni-channel strategy, basically allowing them to reach Instacart's customers across channels like CTV and display. Can you describe the value in this arrangement for advertisers?

Laura: (11:08)

What we're really trying to do here is provide a way for our CPG advertisers to leverage our data across all their media buys. You know, it really helps us realize this vision of leveraging data to help our partners grow their businesses and doing so in a way that is even more flexible for them. And so they're able to layer their programmatic campaigns with exclusive Instacart data to build category based segments. Like for example, somebody who's bought their category but not their brand, somebody who's bought their brand lapsed brand purchasers or someone who's never purchased with their brand. And this kind of targeting as a marketer is of course so valuable. Um, and we're really excited to have this pilot live and to start looking at how we can continue to lean into this capability and really enable our partners to grow their businesses.

Damian: (12:04)

Now you recently announced that you'd be bundling, uh, NBCU streaming service peacock for Instacart plus subscribers. You've also partnered with Roku. So I'm wondering if you could talk about the natural synergies between Instacart and streaming platforms like that.

Laura: (12:19)

The customer we serve, we like to think of as the COO of their household. They're often someone who might be a, a busy parent or a busy individual who's got a lot going on. And oftentimes, you know, there are folks that really do enjoy, um, in that limited spare time they have. They can be streaming their favorite shows and getting their grocery shopping done at once. So it's a real win-win. And and it's also, you know, I think from an advertiser standpoint, exciting because again, with Roku, if you have somebody who's watching an ad and shopping on Instacart, again, you have that ability to really start to close the loop in terms of the incremental impact of those ads as, as evidenced through Instacart purchase data.

Damian: (13:01)

Could you say a little bit more about how that gap between CTV and shoppable ads is closing? I know we touched on that earlier in the conversation, but how has Instacart as a media platform really enabled this kind of connection?

Laura: (13:14)

You know, I think brands often struggle with attribution from top of funnel, and this is something of course, you know, even when we're going out with top of funnel, it's hard. It's, it's a harder measurement journey than, you know, click-based ads. Um, and so our closed loop measurement is able to offer that higher confidence in media buys. And so being able to actually measure the impact of off platform ads and see that born out in, in the data from Instacart and showing the incrementality of those ads has been really huge for our advertisers.

Damian: (13:53)

What would you say will be a good example of how that discovery at the top of a funnel and performance with shoppable ads kind of merged?

Laura: (14:00)

A great example of that was our partnership with AB InBev this year, um, in the lead up to the Super Bowl. And so we were able to partner with Michelob Ultra and they were the first partner to create an Instacart co-marketing campaign that leveraged this shoppable capability via a QR code. We were able to really support them in this full funnel campaign that was running across linear social C-T-V-O-T-T and making sure that for every time they were out there with a brand message, there was a clear path to conversion for that consumer. What is so exciting about that is that for us, we get to show up with a brand that people absolutely love and really have a, a strong use case for of course, um, beer and, and football as we all know, go very well together. Um, and for them there was the ability to drive consumers to purchase and to really, you know, go from watching an ad to being able to have that product delivered in as fast as 30 minutes.

Laura: (15:06)

That's actually really game changing and I'm so excited when I think about what we could do with that. And especially when you start to layer in other channels like CRM and social and the ability for that kind of concurrent consumption connected to an entertainment event, I think could be really game changing. And we're seeing this really starting to pay off. So in Q3, our advertising and other revenue was up 19% year over year, and this is really driven by stronger than anticipated advertiser spending. And when we think about next year, we're really excited to continue to show up in these key seasonal moments, whether that's cold and flu, football, spring cleaning, or Mother's Day.

Damian: (15:44)

That's interesting. Do you have any brand campaigns coming up in 2024 that you are able to talk about?

Laura: (15:51)

We are currently shooting a really great set of spots against the cold and flu season. Uh, it's funny because it's not the most glamorous time of year, so, you know, when we were initially talking about showing up with a campaign, I was a little bit like, oh, is this really how we wanna show up as a brand? But then when I thought about our value proposition, which is really taking care of that COO of the household, and these people are caregivers and we help them take care of themselves and their families. So we're excited to lean into that moment and hopefully tell some stories that really resonate with consumers and and with our brand partners.

Ilyse: (16:30)

How do you think about the evolving Instacart brand looking towards the future

Laura: (16:37)

From a brand identity standpoint? We've got an amazing foundation to build equity with from a brand storytelling standpoint. We've got an endless trove of stories to tell because every day in the life of a, of a busy household conductor is is full of those moments of trials and tribulations and moments where Instacart can really come in and, and help offer that care for that head of household. So I think that in the year ahead, we've got a great year ahead of us and a ton of momentum from a brand standpoint and only made stronger by the strength of our retailer and CPG brands when we show up together in the market.

Damian: (17:19)

And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned.

Ilyse: (17:25)

The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Ley and Cat Festi.

Damian: (17:34)

And remember, the

Laura: (17:35)

Really exciting piece for me is what does it look like when we move off platform and go to market together with a brand partner and really make their existing multi-channel campaigns shoppable regardless of what channel they're occurring on.

Damian: (17:50)

And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave as a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's making news in digital media. I'm eis and I'm Damien and we'll see you next time.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

BBDO created the iconic Snickers “You’re Not You When You’re Hungry” campaign. The agency’s President and CEO, Andrew Robertson, breaks down the power of humor.

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian: (00:01)

I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse: (00:02)

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

Damian: (00:04)

And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Ilyse: (00:10)

This week we sit down with Andrew Robertson, who has been the president and CEO of BBDO Worldwide since 2004.

Damian: (00:19)

No doubt over his career, he's had a bird's eye view of creative trends in the ad industry. And last year he gave a keynote presentation in the Palai at Cannes Lions and why humor is one of the most effective tools in advertising.

Ilyse: (00:32)

And yet he pointed out that funny ads have been on the decline for 20 years. He reminded the crowd that having a laugh is also good for business.

Damian: (00:42)

Since that talk, Cannes Lions has added a humor category to its awards for 2024. Maybe we have Andrew Robertson to thank for that.

Ilyse: (00:58)

Before we start, we thought it might be a good idea to take a listen to some recent funny ads, starting with this one from T-Mobile starring Bradley Cooper. And of course his mom

Ad: (01:10)

Does T-Mobile really have a 5G

Ad: (01:12)

America's largest 5G network. Try it again. Oh

Ad: (01:15)

My God, you look like a flamingo in

Ad: (01:17)

This. Okay. The America's largest, largest five network network. How can I help you? Hi, how are you? , can I help you? You're

Ad: (01:26)

Making me crazy.

Damian: (01:27)

And here's a bit from Workday's. Big game spot titled Rockstar featuring. You guessed it. Real rock stars like Kiss Front man, Paul Stanley, Joan Jet, Billy Idol, and Ozzy Osborne.

Ad: (01:39)

Hey, corporate types. Well, you stop calling each other rock stars. You're

Ad: (01:42)

A rockstar. You are a rockstar.

Ad: (01:44)

Rock stars, please.

Ad: (01:46)

You know what it takes to be a rockstar. I've trashed. I rums in 43 countries. I was on the road since I was 16.

Ad: (01:53)

I've done my share of bad things. Also your share of bad things.

Damian: (01:57)

And finally, we are big fans of Liquid Death here at the current. Their latest dad takes a bold and unconventional approach to raise awareness about plastic waste on the planet. And it does this while making a smile and cringe all at the same time.

Ad: (02:12)

Thanks to our proprietary and somewhat pain-free surgical method, a sexier planet begins with a sexier you.

Ad: (02:22)

Now I'm practically oozing with beauty.

Damian: (02:26)

Thanks. Liquid death.

Ad: (02:28)

Now we can use old plastic bottles to enhance anything. And I mean anything.

Ilyse: (02:34)

Oh my gosh. Ouch. , that's a good one. Well, the good news is there's plenty more funny where that came from, but let's hear from Anju first.

Andrew: (02:44)

I gotta be honest. When I made the proposal in the presentation that there should be a line for humor, it was really only to get another joke into the presentation. Um, but that was really the only reason I did, did it. However, I'm really thrilled that they have gone ahead and done it. That was a turning point. I think it was a turning point in terms of the work that was getting awarded at Cannes. I think it was a turning point at, in terms of the work that was being entered. Um, and I think my, I think my presentation was just, you know, the right thing at the right time. It was something I wanted to get off my chest. And judging by the response from the audience and the feedback I got subsequently, it was something a lot of people wanted to hear at that moment.

Damian: (03:30)

Let's go back to your presentation a little bit. I I loved it. You kicked it off with this fantastic story about when you first learned that humor sells. I, I wonder if you wouldn't mind recapping a bit of that story.

Andrew: (03:43)

When I was, uh, a student, I had a number of kind of part-time gigs. And one of them was selling vax vacuum cleaners door to door. And for those who don't know, it was a very powerful vacuum cleaner developed by a dairy farmer who adapted one of his milking machines. And it was by far the best suction you could get out of a, out of a vacuum cleaner. But they were bright orange and they weighed like 90 pounds and cost 300. It was a difficult thing to sell. It was a difficult thing to carry, frankly, from door to door. But I learned, I learned a couple of things. One was that sometimes, um, when people believe that what they've got is good enough, you have to find a way to dramatize the fact that it isn't. And in the case of the vax vacuum cleaner, the thing that worked, the thing that could convert people was if I could show them that something they thought was really clean was in fact full of dirt and that vaxx could solve that for them.

Andrew: (04:38)

And by far the most compelling demo of that was to vacuum their bed, their mattress. 'cause everybody likes to think their mattress is really clean, but it, but with a vax vacuum, the mattress, and you just get all sorts of terrible stuff coming out of it. And if I could get to that demo nine times outta 10 people would spend the 300 pounds and, and buy the bright orange machine. So I used to like, I'd ring the doorbell and nine times outta 10, the door would be open by a woman. And I was standing on the doorstep and I would say, my name's Andrew Robertson. I'm presenting the Vxx Vacuum Company. Can we go up to your bedroom? And most of the time they laughed. Most of the time they laughed. And then once they'd laughed, we could then have a conversation where I'd say, well, I really do want to go up to your bedroom because I want to show you just how powerful this vacuum cleaner is. And, and most of the time it worked. But the point I learned was that, um, overcoming resistance to your cell is, is really important. And the best way to do that, the best way to disarm people and to make them like you, is to make them laugh.

Damian: (05:45)

You had some kantar research that showed a steady decline in the use of humor, not just the last five years, but over the last 20 years. What does the data show about why humor declined? I suppose?

Andrew: (05:56)

I mean, there could be a load of things. I think one of the, one of the big trends across that period has been the emergence of the importance of purpose, brand purpose. Um, and I think that that along with that has come, um, a belief and I, but it's a belief that I don't share that, uh, if you have a serious purpose, you should find a way of bringing it to life in a serious way. Um, and, and I think that may account for some of it. Uh, there's certainly, if you look at the data drops in the use of humor in advertising according to that Kantar data during the, um, global recession in 2008, 2009, and then again during the pandemic. And I, I think that is a result of people believing, you know, these are difficult times and people are having a really rough and we need to make sure we're not tone deaf and we need to, uh, we shouldn't do anything funny because it's, it's not appropriate. It's a logical thought process. It's just not true. And I think what happens is when you have those step changes like we had in 2008, 2009, the level drops and then it, and then it doesn't come back up again. Those I would say are the two most significant moments.

Ilyse: (07:15)

But do you see it coming back now?

Andrew: (07:17)

There's actually some pretty good data about what's happened in the last six months and how many more humorous ads are being tested. I'm hopeful that it can be revived.

Ilyse: (07:27)

That's great. I mean, I think everybody is down for a laugh these days. Um, but would you say it's also good for business?

Andrew: (07:34)

90% of people will say that, um, they're more likely to remember an ad that is funny. 80% of people say they're more likely to recommend a brand that is funny. 91% of people say they want brands to be funny. And 72% say they would choose a humorous brand over the competition. And that's all kind of claimed behavior. And it's not surprising if you think about the way we are as human beings, if you make people feel good and attach that feeling to your brand, that's an experience that're going to remember. And when your brand is next presented to them, that's what they're gonna draw on.

Ilyse: (08:12)

One of the reasons you say that people have an inhibition around humor is that it's not compatible with purpose-driven messaging. But you found that not to be the case.

Andrew: (08:23)

It's important for brands to have a meaningful and relevant purpose. The flaw in the logic in my view, is that necessarily that means that when you try to bring that purpose to life or talk about it or dramatize it, uh, you have to do so in a very serious way. You can have a really serious or really important cause or purpose. That doesn't mean you can't talk about it in a way that's going to, people are gonna find amusing. I I showed an example of, of President Obama. He was the president of the United States, pretty big job. Uh, his signature legislative achievement was the Affordable Care Act. And there was a, a website that was built by the government so that people could take advantage of this and it didn't work. And his way of dealing with it was not to do an earn speech about it. His way of dealing with it was to do a funny or die video. That was really, really funny. That's a great way to apologize. It's a great way to say I'm sorry. And when he did that, it was watched by, I think it was 40 or 50 million people. But, but the more important fact is that the number of people who went on the site went up by 40%.

Damian: (09:31)

I'm wondering, can we make the case that humor builds engagement no matter which channel it's on?

Andrew: (09:36)

You know, this fundamental point that if you can use creativity in whatever medium you're working in, whatever form you are working in to make people feel good and attach that feeling to your brand, you will sell more. A few years ago I was in LA and I was due to come back to New York and I got a text message from American Airlines. It's one of the best things I've ever seen, which is not a sentence I expected to say about a text message from American Airlines. But the text message said, you may want to pack an umbrella. We're expecting storms tomorrow. Flights will be delayed and some may be canceled. If you can, you should probably travel on another day. And all of the technology and data that's necessary to ensure that that bit of information, very, very relevant information got to me in the palm of my hand at the right time, right message, right time, all of that technology is great. But if it hadn't been written the way it was, instead of smiling and feeling good, I would probably have been angry. 'cause if it, if the same information was, you know, all caps, weather alert, uh, storms expected on East Coast delays, likely my reaction would've been completely different. I would've been angry instead of which I was smiling. I did get delayed. I then got diverted. I was sitting on the runway in, um, Dulles for, for three hours and I didn't get mad.

Ilyse: (11:07)

There's really an arc to it.

Andrew: (11:09)

Yeah, I mean, I, I would, I would challenge that assumption. I don't think it matters what medium you are consuming or probably what situation you are in. Maybe with a couple of extreme examples, if you can get somebody to laugh and feel good, they are going to thank you for it. That old expression of laughter being the best medicine there is, is true. That's true. If you can make people laugh, they will feel better and they will thank you for it. By, in our case, buying your brand, how you make people laugh, the topic, the content, the idea that you bring to life that creates this feeling, what you build that around is, has to be handled very sensitively. What I'm arguing is that no matter what state of mind people are in, if you can find a way to make them smile and laugh and feel good, they're gonna thank you for it with their business.

Ilyse: (12:06)

What would you say is the funniest campaigns that you've worked on?

Andrew: (12:10)

You are not you and you're hungry for. Snickers is a campaign that's that's rooted in making people laugh. Um, it's, you know, running in 83 countries, it's in its 13th year, it's been outrageously successful for the brand.

Damian: (12:24)

Is that a negotiation between, you know, you as the creative and, and the the client? Do you talk about the style, the content and whether it should be funny? Does that come up or is that sort of an organic process?

Andrew: (12:36)

The key to making something funny is you have to under, you have to understand the premise. And there are cases where that humor is generated around premises that people might understand, but just not like the fundamental point of if you can, if you can create a premise that people understand you have the launching pad for something that could be humorous. That's true everywhere. It's an organic process, it's an organic process. And if you have something that makes the client laugh, the client will laugh. Usually the same way as the audience will laugh if something's funny. It's funny. And getting people to recognize the value of it is sometimes a function of getting them to experience it. The bit that gets complicated is when people are arguing about whether something is funny or not, it takes ingenuity and creativity. And sometimes I think the bigger problem is, is not that people don't want to do something that is funny, it's that what they do isn't actually that funny.

Damian: (13:41)

Do you ever get to a point where , you know, you've got the final asset there and it's like, Hmm, it's just not that funny? Or does, does that ever happen? Or does it get that far?

Andrew: (13:49)

Yeah, it does. It, it does happen. And when you're testing the work, you're not testing, is it funny or not, you're testing whether the audience is going to engage with it, find it memorable, and it's going to make them feel something that makes them wanna buy your brand. The humor is the means to the end. It's not an end in itself, but yeah, it does, it does happen where somebody's like, ah, it's just not funny. Uh, or it's not funny enough. You know, there are writers' rooms working on, on Seth Meyer's jokes every night. I mean, there's 10 people sitting around a table trying to come up with something funny for him to say, 'cause he's gotta be funny for an hour. And that's a lot of jokes that you need. So it takes a lot of creative minds to come up with them. Fortunately, we don't have to fill an hour usually, but it's still, it's still harder than, it's still harder than anybody imagines. And if you doubt that for a second, just try and write something funny yourself. Just try and write even when you know the format, try and write a Snickers commercial. Try and try and write something funny for Snickers. It's, it's harder than anybody imagines.

Ilyse: (14:52)

Would you say there are some categories that lend themselves to humor more than others?

Andrew: (14:57)

I don't want to accept the principle that, that there are any categories in which it couldn't be used. I think companies and individuals may choose not to, but I, but I, I find it hard to believe that it, that it really couldn't be used.

Damian: (15:22)

And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week with Jesse Poll, the head of brand and marketing for Major League Soccer.

Ilyse: (15:29)

The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Berkley and Cat

Damian: (15:37)

Fessy. And remember,

Andrew: (15:39)

If you can use creativity in whatever medium you're working in, whatever form you are working in to make people feel good and attach that feeling to your brand, you will sell more.

Damian: (15:53)

And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet. I'm Damien and

Ilyse: (16:05)

I'm Elise.

Damian: (16:06)

And we'll see you next time.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

As the presidential race picks up momentum, The Current Podcast explores what a political campaigner and a CPG brand marketer can learn from each other. Kyle Yadon-Smith, (the head of digital for the National Republican Senatorial Committee), and Vinny Rinaldi, (the head of media and analytics for The Hershey Company), get candid about marketing politics and chocolate. 

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

 

Damian Fowler: (00:01)

I'm Damian Fowler. Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Damian Fowler: (00:10)

This week we are queuing up a great conversation between two advertisers who may not on first glance seem to have that much in common. We're joined by Vinnie Ranaldi, the head of media and analytics at the Hershey Company, and Kyle Yadon-Smith, the head of digital for the National Republican Senatorial Committee. That said, we thought it would be fascinating to hear what a big CPG brand like Hershey can learn from a major political advertiser like the NRSC. And since this is an election year, what better time to host this conversation. It's been said that every great political campaign rewrites the rules at the same time, CPG brands can now supercharge campaigns with retail data. With all that in mind, let's get to it. Both of you, of course, are focused on reaching those respective audiences, whether you call 'em consumers or voters. I'd love to hear from both of you, you know, on what you think you may have in common.

Kyle Smith: (01:09)

I was gonna joke, the uh, the biggest thing is, uh, we're both targeting, so we're women I think is our key marketplace. the cycle . Um, obviously that's not the only, uh, demographic that's gonna be key on the political landscape, but, uh, we're gonna be running ads in October and so we're gonna screw up your Halloween marketing. Thankfully you guys do not have a, uh, Georgia runoff this year, so it should be okay by Christmas. And uh, yeah, I think we're gonna be targeting a lot of the same consumers slash uh, voter demographics. So it's kind of, it's, it's interesting how that kind of plays out. Yeah,

Vinny Rinaldi: (01:36)

I would agree. I think there's more correlation. I think, you know, we're looking at the same content areas to show up in as a brand to sell chocolate as you guys are, to show up and influence somebody to devote one way or the other in those big environments. You know, a lot of how we look to show up is how do we drive seasonality in local markets at a certain store? So you're right in October, believe me, it's probably hot topic number one of like the lead up to our Super Bowl October 31st. There's a serious presidential election happening a week later. Yeah. So how much will that play a role when we're buying, you know, market-based ads? So it is an area, I wouldn't say of concern, but an area that we're certainly focused on of like how do we make sure we're showing up in the right markets during our most precious time of year, but being cognizant of some of the headwinds we might face based on what's happening in real time.

Damian Fowler: (02:28)

It's interesting, you know, you're sort of talking in a way about competition between say chocolate and political campaigns, but on the other hand there's a sort,

Kyle Smith: (02:35)

I think we would lose that one if you had to vote on one or the other. .

Damian Fowler: (02:39)

I mean, of course there's an alignment too. I mean maybe you guys can, you know, get together and cross-reference here.

Vinny Rinaldi: (02:45)

I mean, I joke as we look at all of the debates leading up to it and one of our products is popcorn. How do we show up and say, get your popcorn ready for all these new events that are happening. So can you bridge that gap and kind of work together? There's a lot of areas of, of

Kyle Smith: (02:58)

Interest. Politics is pop culture now, right? Yeah. Like I'll never forget, one of the funniest ads I saw was, I think it was Advil, they bought the promoted tweet on the first day of the debate in 2016 and it said, do you have a headache from this debate, you know, by Advil? And I thought that was kind of a fun way to play into it.

Damian Fowler: (03:12)

What's interesting to me is, you know, in looking at say any given political campaign, how the importance of being reactive in the moment kind of real time is so crucial, you know, for getting those swing voters out to either vote or just to nudge the needle a little bit. And I'm wondering, you know, if that idea of the sped up data-driven campaign is obviously influencing the way CPG brands like Hershey think about campaigns,

Vinny Rinaldi: (03:38)

I think we certainly use data-driven tactics in a very similar way. And you think back to the last, I guess it's 16 years since the 2008 election, which is crazy during that election when, when President Obama won, you know, it goes a little unnoticed of how he won the tactics he used, which were way ahead of his time in a lot of this, using the data, focusing on different demographic urban environments, getting those people to the polling centers, like we're trying to do the same thing during, whether it's a big season or to dry everyday occurrences, like how do you find those pockets of incremental opportunities to grow from the beast that's already there is very correlated to from when President Obama did it to President Trump doing it in 2016 and really becoming a more data-driven tactic on how you show up in those moments.

Kyle Smith: (04:26)

I mean, it's kind of funny, both Obama in 2012 and uh, president Trump in uh, 2016 both had a actually almost similar data strategy. They're both very digital heavy in from a percentage perspective for their time. And then of course nowadays we actually can't use that data on quite a few platforms. So data's extremely important in the political space. Obviously there's, uh, 60% of Americans over the age of 18 are gonna vote this cycle and a lot of those folks are gonna vote for the same party they've always voted for. And identifying people that, you know, swing back and forth is the key to winning, obviously. And that coalition changes every cycle. For us, it's leveraging the data to inform what that audience looks like so that we can make tactical data-driven decisions, even on platforms that don't let us use it directly of which, you know, is the bulk of the ecosystem at this point. It's

Vinny Rinaldi: (05:08)

An interesting point. Like we as a big massive consumer packaged goods brand that sells chocolate, has no first party data. We have to talk to everybody. Literally 98% of the um, US population eats candy mint or gum. So for us it's like how do you balance, you want scalability no matter what, but what are the right insights and data points that you utilize when you go to activation? Because if you're trying to find one-to-one in any second and or third party data partnerships in some platforms, not all, you're losing the findability due to some of the privacy regulations that are coming up. So if you don't own the data asset itself in a first party ecosystem, it's a lot harder to deliver that experience. And it's also a lot harder to collect first party data when you're a brand that everyone else sells your product. You're just driving demand through advertising and awareness and driving people to the store. But from a D two C perspective where a lot of that collection can happen, it's a little bit more of a challenge on our end to be able to sell chocolate and collect a data 0.0 for those people.

Damian Fowler: (06:08)

What's interesting to me about this is according to a study by the Trade Desk with Morning Consult during the 2022 midterms, 75% of all Americans surveyed who say they might vote in the midterms, say they know who they're gonna vote for. So I don't know from a political standpoint, do you market to those people or is marketing always at the margins? You know, are you always trying to reach out to that undecided voter? And I wonder if that carries over into CPG thinking as well.

Kyle Smith: (06:33)

I actually think this may be a space where things are more similar than they are different. You know, if you've bought Hershey Kisses every year for Christmas and you, your family's always done that and you always, you know, put that in the stalking, you're probably gonna continue to do it until something shifts or something changes. There's pretty high retention, right? In terms of Republicans from 2016 are very likely to be Republicans again, 2024. But things do change, you know, the people will always tell you, they say they know who they're gonna vote for today, but then there could be a new story that drops at some point next year that scrambles everything. You know, it changes people's opinions on issues, it changes how people think about things and we have to react very, very quickly to that and make sure that, you know, if the story's good for us, that everyone knows about it or if the story's bad for us, that we have our point of view out there to, to kind of counter what the information is. It's kind of hard to expect who those people are gonna be or what's gonna trigger that. So I think that kind of leads to the importance of talking to everyone and making sure that you kind of have a broad message out there. But we also know our folks that are, you know, Republican donors donate or vote in every single election that are probably on our team. So it's kind of just, uh, doing a little bit of both.

Vinny Rinaldi: (07:30)

Yeah, you look at Reese's Peanut butter cups, they have a 64% household penetration. I'm not sure there's any single brand out there that comes as close. So if you think about it, you, you're almost everywhere. So you're constantly speaking to everybody and hoping, you know, in those moments you're getting that incremental gain for a new household conversion and or, or repeat purchaser. So you do want to talk to both. You're also looking at probably one of the more impulsive categories in the world. Chocolate is a grab and go. You're at the counters, you're just grabbing, you don't plan it. So you always have to be, broadly speaking, making everyone aware of subtly nudging that reminder message to almost everybody.

Damian Fowler: (08:08)

Given that then, you know, does that mean a lot of your campaigns tend to be about, you know, just brand awareness kind of up there at the top of the funnel? And then how do you use channels to nudge the consumer? How, how does that work? ,

Vinny Rinaldi: (08:22)

In very basic theory, yes, we are a very big awareness brand messaging strategy to have fun. You know, we lean heavily on the voice of Will Arnett, which is the voice behind the Reese's commercials. So like, it is that probably where, but then you have, whether it's a limited edition or a seasonal environment or some other area where you wanna be a little bit more focused, where you would lean into some sort of targeting capability, whether it's a retail based target, third party, purchase based target. How do you use all those levers to take some of the spend and be focused while the majority of your base spend is reaching that broad awareness of the entire population?

Kyle Smith: (09:00)

Yeah, I think that's where, you know, I'm a little bit jealous of Hershey's and you have all this institutional brand ID and I'm, we're jealous of the starting point, especially, you know, I'm working on the, I'm working on senate campaigns this cycle. The NRC, we only have really two incumbents, meaning like people that are already senators running for reelection, again, Ted Cruz and uh, Rick Scott in Florida, they kind of have a really strong starting point they can focus on more, just reminding folks that kinda like you, I feel like you guys do every site or every year we're Hershey's, we're Reese's also. I'm jealous you get will learn that, but we're we're, we're Reese's what we are, et cetera. But then on our side we have a separate project of a lot of new candidates that no one's ever heard of that frankly haven't held elected office. And you have a year and you know, three or four months to make their name Id as close to a hundred percent with the voter base as you can. If uh, Trump were president it was 2020 and everyone kind of knows who these guys are. It is kind of more similar I think to the annual, uh, yeah, candy marketing. But this, this year it's uh, we have to start from scratch. It's like you guys introducing a new brand, I feel like, or a new skew of, uh, of, you know, Hershey's, Reese's, et cetera.

Vinny Rinaldi: (10:00)

We just launched uh, Reese's Caramel Cups and it is like launching a completely new thing even though it's part of the Reese's family. Yes, you're gonna have those loyalists try your new product, but can you attract new consumers into an already built brand because of a new introduction of caramel into a peanut butter cup? You have to find those new pockets of opportunity to not lose your base or not have them switch completely and keep that cycle growing with new consumers.

Damian Fowler: (10:26)

One of the things that's happened, uh, in the last couple of years, we talked about, you know, what happened in the last four years is the kind of rise of, there's much more inventory out there for streaming platforms, connected television, and that connecting the dots up with, you know, other channels. I wonder if you could both sort of talk me through a little bit of how that, the maturing as it were of CTV has changed the way you go to market and think about connecting up big awareness plays on CTV to, you know, lower down the funnel to more performance driven tactics.

Vinny Rinaldi: (10:56)

You know, as I go back to what I said earlier, the proliferation of content everywhere has certainly opened up the purview of how to show up, how to be everywhere. You know, for me, when I think about the connected TV landscape, what I love about it is the ability to buy prime time at any time. When you sit down at eight o'clock or nine o'clock or 12 o'clock or 3:00 PM it doesn't matter. You're accessing whatever content you wanna watch in that moment. So in my opinion, when you buy this way, you've got primetime moments at all times. That person is decided they're gonna sit down, they're gonna, you know, watch whatever it is that they wanna watch at that given moment.

Vinny Rinaldi: (11:47)

And that's your moment as a brand to show up and that's how we look at it. And then when you take that holistic approach to those primetime moments, how do you then use the controllability of technology to control, reach and frequency? So if I know that I'm talking to this person in 12 different platforms, well I don't want my frequency to be a 40 on one of 'em. I want to control that and keep extending reach. If I get enough reach, my household penetration should go up. If that goes up, my sales are going up, we're winning share, we're reaching more consumers, like that's our end goal. So being in as many homes as possible is actually impossible if you're buying on 40 different IOs or platforms. So then when you think about consolidation and the value of bringing somebody from an awareness building tactic and streaming or on the big screen all the way through a funnel and having that control allows me to unlock more business outcomes than any media measurement can give me.

Damian Fowler: (12:42)

I'm wondering if what the equivalent of business outcomes are in the political ad marketplace.

Kyle Smith: (12:48)

Um, well if we win.

Damian Fowler: (12:51)

I thought you were gonna say that. 

Kyle Smith: (12:52)

Yeah, I, I , I think, uh, I actually think this is where also uh, you know, the candy and CPG world in general is, it's pretty similar to political land is um, our outcomes also a little bit impulsive. I remember standing in line, you know, to vote for the DC City Council with a few of my coworkers before and we were all talking like, who are these people? , you know, it's like we don't know who anyone we're voting for. It's kind of funny. And then you kind of re look at 'em real quick. You remember like stuff you've heard or mailers you've gotten and you make a decision that you have one day to do that or one month to do that. And that's our moment. That's when you get your conversion. That's kind of how I'd compare the two there. I think from a high level perspective, we have the exact same problem in politics, especially with linear, where we have very high frequencies against some audiences sometimes.

Kyle Smith: (13:28)

And when you're talking to one group of people 70 times, you're, you have less money then to talk to the rest of the folks who may not be very heavy media consumers. So having an ever-present point of view across not just linear but also digital, I think that's something that our party especially is gonna try to get a lot better at this cycle. It, it's interesting to me that 20 12, 20 16, I think, and Vinny told me if this is wrong, I think the corporate world almost looked at politics and was like, wow, they're doing some really cool stuff. We have to figure out what they're doing. I think that's kind of taken a step back a little bit now that we've gotten into the, you know, we have to target older Americans 'cause older Americans are more likely to vote. And I think now as older Americans, habits have changed quite a bit from 2020 to 2024, it's forced both political parties to kind of adapt a little bit after frankly the corporate world has uh, to what the new landscape looks like.

Damian Fowler: (14:11)

You know, speaking of different audiences, are there different channels for different audiences? Kyle, when you said, you know, reaching older Americans or all older voters, I'm wondering if that's still like a linear play now or if that's completely, am I just stereotyping a whole demographic?

Kyle Smith: (14:26)

Yeah, well I watch Wheel of Fortune every other night, so I, I maybe I, maybe I'm breaking the demographic there. . Yeah, I, I think linear is still the utmost effective mass reach, uh, mechanism for folks 55 plus, especially broadcast. It's pretty easy to get over 75% reach across that audience, uh, with a couple of weeks of linear buys. What I will say though is even older users are starting to shift pretty substantially. Especially, you know, in the last couple of years when I used to do my YouTube pitches, I always told, told the story of my father-in-Law who is a huge Elon Musk fan and watches a lot of documentaries about him on YouTube. And I would walk down one day and he's like an hour or two of this documentary that some college kid put together about, about how he's making rockets or whatever. They do a penetration across all the different age groups. And I do think that we're gonna continue to see a shift away, especially from cable time spent on cable and towards the streaming services, whether it's YouTube or or more of the down funnel services

Vinny Rinaldi: (15:15)

As I stated earlier. You know, we reach everybody with a mouth. So every demographic needs to play a role in our media, both strategy spend, investment strategy, that's everything. Kyle, you kinda hit the nail on the head. It's what's happening between those environments is what's the shift what we're seeing. And I think the industry's seeing more and more, if you remove live news and sports from linear consumption, you're gonna see a drastic drop off in actual consumption habits. But you know, when you think about the purchase power right now, it shifted a little bit into the millennial group who are the bigger purchases, which is 71 million US people. We talk about Gen Z a lot. It's like, oh, they're the up and comers, they're people we have to talk to, but they're, you know, the people we don't have to spend that much time on, they're 68 million of them. So they're almost equivalent to a millennial generation. So we're gonna just wait for them to become purchasers. And I think that's a miss. So you've gotta show up in the moments or platforms that those consumption habits are happening by demo and then show up authentically to that audience so it's not, forget about one versus the other. It's how do you repeat the holistic picture across every platform and then deliver a communication strategy that resonates with those different audience groups. That's how we're working towards showing up across every platform.

Kyle Smith: (16:34)

And that's what's, that's so interesting to me. It's like the purchasing power in our world is a little bit different. You know, like in terms of voter people that actually vote, well one kids under the age of 18 cannot vote. So there's zero purchasing power. And I, I know that, I mean at least when I was in marketing school they, they taught us about how kids do have purchasing power, uh, when it comes to telling their parents

Vinny Rinaldi: (16:51)

They have influencing purchasing power

Kyle Smith: (16:54)

But in our world, you know, the, if you look at the millennial generation, you have a much higher voting percentage than it was 10 years ago. But it's still not anything close to 55 plus glad that we have the purchasing power in the millennial generation now though.

Vinny Rinaldi: (17:06)

I think it's that 13 to 18 group that's so key for us. As I said, the influencing power, everything, especially in our category, has become on demand. So I have the ability at 13 to use mom and dad's credit card tied to a DoorDash account and I'm gonna gain for the next five hours and I'm gonna order a bunch of things from seven 11 as we move into the future, five to 10 years from now, most of that generation will become now the voters but they don't wanna leave their house or they don't wanna go outta their way to go do something 'cause everything has come so easy to them by using a phone. How does the voter landscape change from either written ballots or in person to a truly secure ability to vote and get more buy-in into voting for a generation that is very used to just opening something up and hitting a button

Damian Fowler: (17:59)

We're throwing to the future here. Yeah, I mean Kyle, I dunno, what do you think, uh, do you think we're gonna get to that point?

Kyle Smith: (18:04)

I think Covid kind of changed the voting rules in a lot of states that make it easier to vote. I don't know if we'll ever get to the instant gratification level until, you know, maybe 50, a hundred years from now when we're voting on a blockchain and you get a vote coin and you spend it somewhere or something like that. So the convenience factor matters a lot and then it changes by state and almost by locality, right? If you live in a rural area and it's hard for you to get to the polling place 'cause it's a 10 mile drive versus it being half a mile down the street when you're dropping off your kids to school, that could make a difference as well. So it really just depends.

Vinny Rinaldi: (18:35)

I think that's really interesting because each state is adopting their own voter rules sounds very similar to each state adopting their own data privacy rules instead of thinking of a national basis and actually simplifying the ease for everyday people to utilize something. It's fascinating that we all continue to live by state, by state governed rules that are drastically different than just a national governing body to allow us to have a centralized ruling system to use, whether it's data privacy or voter rights. It's just, it's funny to watch that correlation between our two worlds.

Kyle Smith: (19:09)

Even sugar taxes, you know, some of the cities, I don't think it's gone after candy quite yet. True. But the uh, you know the Bloomberg rules around like the taxing soda and stuff and I think Philadelphia did it and then the sales increased outside of the Philadelphia like urban area like substantially for all those stores because you're able to get cheaper stuff. But that's interesting.

Damian Fowler: (19:26)

Kyle, you mentioned harder to reach audiences and I want to ask both of you, you know about that and how the programmatic marketplace makes it possible to reach those harder to reach audiences. I know at the top we joked about suburban housewives but you know, how granular can you get,

Kyle Smith: (19:43)

What is it 95% of people watch video whether it's linear or digital. So that does get you to a pretty high threshold the way I approach it. Like we have to deliver messages very quickly, right? So that's why I think you see political really lean into linear a lot 'cause you could get that mass reach in a day if you're buying the football games. Like if you're buying, you know, primetime on across all the all four networks and you have a presence there, you're gonna get to 50% reach pretty quickly. I think the hard part is honestly the other 50% on CTV and making sure that you're distributing that message to the person the one day a week they happen to be watching ad supported Hulu and they're not watching Netflix for example. That's where it gets more difficult. Having the centralized approach, making sure that you're maxing out the non-linear household reach if you're already buying a lot of linear is, is the hardest and most important thing that we have to do. We'll have maybe eight to 10 messages per candidate that we run and we want all eight to 10 of those messages to be seen by as many people as possible and we don't have as much time. I wish I had, you know, one or two month long campaigns that I could run behind these things to get that reach number, the incremental reach as high as we possibly can. But in reality it's, it's seven to 10 days. We just have to maximize that

Vinny Rinaldi: (20:46)

For Reeces. Again, reach everybody, everybody with a mouth, everybody wants to buy a Reeces, great. But then I go again down the portfolio, you've got variety brands in York peppermint patties, almond Joy, mounds. And so like how do you take those with much less spending power and find those pockets of opportunity? You know, for your, give you an example for York, one of the really cool unlocks we found was the snowbird effect sales actually increased 'cause York leans very heavily 55 plus really 65 plus and you see Northeast sales in the summer skew higher and then southeast sales skew higher in the winter and you're seeing the people as they move the consumer habits follow with them. So how do you heavy up in those markets during the seasons? So when you don't have a large bucket of money to go spend as a brand, you use data and insights in that way to be like really targeted hyper-focused on winning those key occasions for that consumer. Because again, at the end of the day you can only stretch a budget so far if you want to grow a business.

Damian Fowler: (21:51)

Fascinating that. So just to wrap it up, I guess I wanna ask each of you one question, you know the same question Kyle, what do you wish you could take from CPG land and Vinny, what do you wish you could take from political?

Kyle Smith: (22:03)

For me it'd be like two things. Like I think the permanence of the institutions. You know, you have the same kind of folks that'll work in marketing, the same agencies that run things for years, if not decades. Sometimes that makes it so that you have a lot of like earned experience and a lot of, you've gone through all this several times, you know what works, what, what doesn't. And I think kind of an informed approach every time politics is, you know, you have to start from the bottom and you build something up and then election day happens and that institution basically doesn't exist anymore and you have to start all over again for the next two years. So that'd be the first thing. And I think with that comes the advantages of being able to have more predictability. We don't have a ton of predictability in politics.

Kyle Smith: (22:37)

It's tough to know what my budget's gonna be. It's really tough for me to know what the news cycles are gonna look like next year without kind of that knowledge going in without knowing how much money you have, it makes it harder to do long-term planning. That's where I'm a little bit jealous of CPG land kind of wish, you know, knowing what your budget is a year and a half out I think would be awesome in our world if we were able to say that with certainty. But you know, it makes us scrappy and it makes it so that sometimes it's better than you expect and you get to have fun with it and sometimes it's a little bit worse and you just have to be smarter than the other guy.

Vinny Rinaldi: (23:02)

I would say almost the opposite in a way because I feel the marriage of branding and performance is so important to not separate the two, but to bring them together and the agility that the political landscape moves with is actually a blessing in disguise. Pricing aside the hyper target ability, the ability to show value really quickly is something that we lack because we don't own the end game. So like there, there's a part of that that's like, okay, well if you can be that hyper-focused and get a really quick outcome, how do you build that into a small percentage of your spending in the overall portfolio to be super agile, super hyper targeted, really focused on market analysis and then correlated to sales or in your case outcomes from an election. That to me is super exciting. It's something that we sometimes strive to do. You know, we used to have this motto that we're still trying to build out, but like, act like a CPG, think like a D to C, we don't own the end game, but how do you think really agile but come with the power of being a CPG. So I think what you bring to the table from a political landscape gives us just a little bit there to think about of like being super fast, nimble, and agile in a marketplace that changes so fast.

Damian Fowler: (24:17)

And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by loving caliber. The current podcast team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce. And remember,

Kyle Smith: (24:30)

If you're talking to one group of people 70 times, you have less money than to talk to the rest of the folks who may not be very heavy media consumers.

Vinny Rinaldi: (24:37)

Act like a CPG, think like a D to C.

Damian Fowler: (24:40)

And if you like what you hear, subscribe and leave a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet. I'm Damian and we'll see you next time.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Barbara Shipley, senior VP of brand integration at AARP, discusses on The Current Podcast the risk of perpetuating myths associated with older generations.  

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

 

DAMIAN (00:01):

I'm Damian Fowler.

ILYSE (00:02):

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

DAMIAN (00:04):

And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

ILYSE (00:10):

This week we sit down with Barbara Shipley, the senior Vice President of Brand integration at A A RP. The

DAMIAN (00:17):

A A RP is the nation's largest non-profit nonpartisan organization, which is in its own words, dedicated to empowering Americans 50 and older to live their best lives. It's taken great pains to assure people that it's not about silver haired grannies and granddads

ILYSE (00:33):

To be sure it's building on a tremendous legacy that started back in 1958. But as the perception of aging has changed in that time, so has the organization and its messaging. The A A RP is on a mission to debunk the myths about growing old. One of the ways it's doing this is by investing heavily in digital marketing in a world focused on youth. Barbara talks to us about what's unique about the A A RP demographic,

BARBARA SHIPLEY (01:04):

So we totally understand why people have a focus on Gen Z millennials. Um, let's be honest, there's definitely an obsession with youth, not just in this country, but all around the world. I think what's important for people to remember is not to put generations against each other, but to recognize where the customer base could be and potentially take age out of the equation for just a second, think about what your brand is, what your marketing, what your bottom line is, and then who makes the most sense? And in most cases, your marketing team, your brand team, your strategy team is going to zero in on people, 50 plus, they don't know it now, but if they open their mind to see where their customer is, I can almost guarantee it will include a huge proportion of the 50 plus because that's where the money is being spent. That's where the population growth is. Aging, is fueling growth in almost every market and segment.

ILYSE (02:22):

Just how big is that spending power, I guess, of that demographic? And then basically, how should brands think about this audience?

BARBARA SHIPLEY (02:30):

In the US alone, you've got 110 million people over 50, and the fastest growing audience is people over 85. So that is something to celebrate. Now, in a youth, and you could say youth obsessed, but in a youth focused environment, it's hard to pull people's attention over to the power of the 50 plus audience. But when we talk to brands and marketers in the industry and say, $8.6 trillion, they stop and listen, that's a lot, that contribution that the 50 plus in the US alone makes to the US economy each year.

ILYSE (03:15):

Now, the A A RP was founded 65 years ago in 1958. How has your organization changed to reflect the values and the needs of the demographic that you now serve?

BARBARA SHIPLEY (03:27):

The biggest way a A RP has changed is we are still extremely proud and focused of the, on the work that we do to help retired senior citizens, but that is not all we do. So if you think about an organization that is focused primarily on the 50 plus their families and their communities, how many 50-year-old people do you know that are retired right now or even thinking about retirement, they may be planning for it. I have to say I hope they are, because if you're not planning for it by the time you're 50, that's gonna be a challenge. But retirement could be 20 years away. And so A A RP has adapted it's content, it's programs, it's services, it's products, it's community outreach, it's volunteers to really address the way people are aging today, not just the way they aged when their parents or grandparents were going through their lives.

DAMIAN (04:26):

In addition to changing the programming that you have, um, how has the narrative changed in terms of your marketing, in terms of your campaigns? Now, I know you work with BBDO to create this new narrative. Could you address that a little bit? So

BARBARA SHIPLEY (04:39):

This longevity message that I was just talking about is really important and it, and it really became one of the big insights to this new narrative, as you say. So if you could spend or live half your life after 50, you want to make sure that your money, your health, and your happiness live as long as you do. It starts to capture in a really concrete way. Our role, the AARP's role, is as a wise friend and a fierce defender, we are uniquely equipped to help you make sure your money, health and happiness live as long as you do. And the reason why it works so well as a marketing campaign is because of what I call the rug pull at the end, which is in fact, the younger you are, the more you need A A RP. And that has stopping power and gets people's attention because it is not easy to make sure your money, health and happiness live as long as you do. But we are here to help you do that.

DAMIAN (05:44):

It's interesting here, you talk about this because that line in the sand of retirement, sort of mid sixties, uh, has always been there and as sort of as a sort of psychological threshold. And, and that's clearly changing, you know, not just in the United States, but everywhere around the world. And I know that one of the important focuses for you has been around the importance of work and not just work for people, you know, under 65. It's not about retirement anymore, is it?

BARBARA SHIPLEY (06:09):

So you're right, it's not about the traditional old book of retirement. So work has become one of the biggest areas for A A RP. And it, it, it's interesting when you see it at first, people can be a little bit surprised. Wait a minute, I thought you were about retirement. And very quickly they get to that moment where of course you're not just going to help me in my retirement years, you are going to help me in my working years as well. And we do have to be honest here, there's a lot of ageism in the workplace. There's age discrimination, which is even a more deeper legal issue. If you're over 50 and you need to work and you're outta work, it's a daunting task just to get an interview. So what we do is work with the environment that you're trying to succeed in, not just help you with your resume, which we do provide you a network, which we do connect you to a job board, which we do. But we are also communicating to the HR industry, hiring managers sectors, the creative industry to push and help people understand the power of the multi-generational workforce. There is so much power in the multi-generational workforce. The work is better, the experience is better, the culture is stronger, the learnings never end and it goes every which way. And that's why I'm so passionate about the multi-generational workforce, specifically in the creative industry and how powerful that can be for business outcomes for your clients and for the culture of your agency.

ILYSE (07:50):

Yeah, and definitely there is an ageism issue in America and not even to mention the marketing industry. Could you describe some of those like stereotypes and misperceptions that do show up in media and we, we still see,

BARBARA SHIPLEY (08:05):

On the one hand, if you're thinking about hiring an older person, a little bit different than you just asked, but if you're thinking about hiring an older person, the myth associated with that is they can't use technology. They're slow, they're always gonna call in sick. They're not really looking to work here for a long time. They're just marking time until they retire. False, false, false and false. This is a group of people who largely have accumulated so much experience and so much wisdom that they are going to right the ship when there is some kind of a crisis in the workplace, they are going to be the steady hand. They can be, um, a receptacle for learning, for teaching, for sharing. There are lots of things that people learn how to do. So there are some opportunities for learning, but let's create those opportunities so that we can get the benefits of people in the workplace.

BARBARA SHIPLEY (09:05):

In marketing. We still see brands, brands are really starting to get it right. I think there's a lot of reasons for that. We're gonna take some credit for that, but we won't take all that credit. I think part of it is because a lot of creative directors at your agencies, they're turning 50 and they want to be relevant. They know their life experience and their talent is relevant. And I think that's part of where the new narrative in a lot of these ads is coming from. They're also, I think, looking at the realities of aging. They're looking at the research, the data, and they're seeing that people are developing their own stories, their own timelines. pe half of people in America that are 65 to today are still working. So to tell a story in an ad of people in their sixties with sort of blank stares, fumbling around technology, doddering fools only vulnerable, wearing beige does not tell the story of how people are actually living their lives today.

BARBARA SHIPLEY (10:09):

Now watch an ad for a restaurant, the older people, I bet you are background, that's not how it actually is, but that's how the ad portrays it because the younger hipper people are in the front, they are your OCPs. So let's get it actually the way it is because the danger of perpetuating these myths is twofold. One, your prime audience that has all the spending power is feeling ignored or insulted by your brand. And two younger people who come in contact with your work fear aging, that's a societal problem. And I would ask you and all of your listeners to answer the question, what's the alternative to aging? Everybody wants to age their way, which is why our mission is to empower people to choose how they live as they age.

ILYSE (11:10):

Now, are there any specific tools that A A RP turns to, um, to kind of bust some of those myths around those stereotypes?

BARBARA SHIPLEY (11:19):

So that's a great question because the tools and the concrete, um, opportunities are the best way to educate and change the environment. And I am so proud of the work that we launched about five years ago in a very special partnership with Getty Images. We have introduced a signature collection on Getty images that has grown to tens of thousands of images called Disrupt Aging. And the goal of disrupt aging is to, through imagery tell the more current contemporary real and varied stories associated with how people age. You see multi-generational images, you see images of people at work, you see images of people at play. They are not overly photoshopped, they are not overly beautiful. They are very real and it makes a huge difference. And to me, one of the most exciting things that I didn't even anticipate when we built this is the search techniques that we have introduced.

BARBARA SHIPLEY (12:22):

Instead of agencies searching for old people on the beach, we now are shifting the, the search, which means the input is changing. And the models are also really shifting how we think about the imagery that captures today's realities of aging. So the Getty images work is pretty radical. And then we also have all of the data from the usage that shows us what people are gravitating to and what they need. So it can be a very responsive tool, but it isn't enough. We need more tools in our industry and I recognize that I grew up in this industry, I grew up in the agency world. I know what it's like. The big problem I have with where our industry is right now is stop making assumptions about me because you know one thing about me, which is my age, nobody wants that. So this is what we need to break ourselves out of and stop putting everything through an age lens, which may it sound funny coming from an organization that is about aging, but it's about the freedom to choose how you live as you age and not be put into a box or a category or segment because of one data point.

ILYSE (13:41):

Now there's no doubt a lot of brands are getting it wrong still, but are there any brands that are doing it right?

BARBARA SHIPLEY (13:48):

Yeah, absolutely. So I'll give you one example, which is Hyundai. And the story is taking the daughter to college and they're driving. So the Hyundai is the vehicle, and by the end of the ad you realize the daughter is dropping the father off at college, and you just have you, you're seized in this moment. I would say there's another narrative coming out of an interesting brand, which is indeed and uh, you see a story of, you know, the the sort of quintessential man carrying the box with stuff in it, which your mo your brain says to you, he's leaving the job, he's been fired, he's retiring. But what you realize by the end of the ad is he's a new hire and he's in his fifties and people couldn't be happier that he's there and he's happy that he's there and it's the new beginning instead of an ending. And that just captures everything about what this audience is actually going through. They aren't just nice stories, they're real

DAMIAN (14:49):

Speaking of perception. And I know that you have the A A RP magazine, which I understand is the world's largest circulation magazine, which has more than 47 million readers and across a broad age range, it goes back to that multi-generational approach that you've been talking about. You know, how does the magazine as it were, fit into the whole, you know, tapestry of everything that you're doing in terms of your marketing efforts and the perception

BARBARA SHIPLEY (15:13):

A A RP the magazine is one of the most exciting things we have. It's a lifestyle magazine uniquely focused on interests, needs, topics that the 50 plus, now that's a huge group of people, right? There is almost no such thing as a 50 plus segment. So we have a lot of elasticity in the A A RP magazine, you'll see a lot of health topics, you'll see a lot of sex topics, you'll see a lot of travel topics, friends, um, empty nest. There's so much that we are able to cover, but we do it with a really deaf hand. There's so much soul in the way we cover these topics and the way we do interviews with the a a-listers that really wanna be on the cover of the magazine. Um, over the years, uh, we've had actors, actresses, uh, musicians, uh, Michael J. Fox, lady Gaga, Henry Winkler was on the last issue. People don't throw it away, it's a keeper.

DAMIAN (16:16):

That is an interesting way of kind of gauging one's own aging in a way, in relation to these pop culture people that you've grown up with

BARBARA SHIPLEY (16:25):

Because these people are still relevant. That makes me still relevant. That makes you still relevant, not some memory of who we once were. This isn't just a group that likes nostalgia either. This is a group of taste makers. You are probably a taste maker. I'm gonna bet. And so you like new music, you like exploring new artists and a A RP sponsors a lot of music. We do a lot of virtual concerts. We do a lot of in-person concerts. We were a huge part of celebrating the 50th anniversary of hip hop. And I think that's why people recognize what we are bringing to the table. We don't just want to sit around and remember, but it's about where are we going

ILYSE (17:06):

Now, speaking about being like taste makers, A lot of people might be surprised to hear that you guys are so into social media. So curious about your approach there and and why it's an important platform to be on. Yeah,

BARBARA SHIPLEY (17:22):

We're very big on Facebook. Facebook is important to us, but so is TikTok. So is Instagram. I don't know anybody that really only lives on one social media platform. They go to different social media platforms for different things. And so we show up differently depending on where their mindset may be, their needs are. Our presence on TikTok is a little bit of an alter ego for a a RP. It's an opportunity for us to bring a, a different part of our personality to bear because that's what the users of TikTok are doing. Same thing with Instagram. We have really dedicated our presence on Instagram to capturing and telling and celebrating the story of Gen X in all its glory. It's all its craziness, all its forgottenness. You know, we used to call this the sandwich generation, right? You used to hear that phrase about people who are caring for aging parents and raising their young children, and they're sort of sandwiched in between.

BARBARA SHIPLEY (18:15):

We are concert goers and we are restaurant goers and we are travelers and we are caregivers. The average age of a caregiver is not a boomer or a Gen X, it's a millennial. And this is, this is a very big deal that people really need to recognize. And we are doing things that we never thought we would need to know how to do. And in many cases we need help. So there's, that's what I mean when I say that these are soulful stories. There is this isn't one dimensional or two dimensional. It's so multi-dimensional. And if people, marketers would just recognize that this 50 plus audience is basically giving everybody else a roadmap. Because what we are blazing, this is a trail, people will be going down basically if there's one message to leave here in terms of how our creative industry writ large reflects older segments, don't do it because it's charitable. Do it because it's good business. And oh, by the way, it's also a better way to engage with your audience and tell the truth versus be stuck in an old stereotype. This is a bottom line opportunity for agencies, brand managers to recognize who their audience is and engage them with their brand.

DAMIAN (19:44):

And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned and if you like what you hear, subscribe and leave us a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet.

ILYSE (19:59):

The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.

DAMIAN (20:07):

And remember,

BARBARA SHIPLEY (20:08):

They don't know it now, but if they open their mind to see where their customer is, I can almost guarantee it will include a huge proportion of the 50 plus because that's where the money is being spent. That's where the population growth is. Aging is fueling growth in almost every market and segment.

DAMIAN (20:32):

I'm Damian.

ILYSE (20:32):

And I'm Ilyse,

DAMIAN (20:33):

And we'll see you next time.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Booking.com’s Chief Marketing Officer, Arjan Dijk, joins The Current Podcast to  touch on the post-pandemic travel boom and how data supports the company’s omnichannel strategy, saying that 30 percent of his marketing team are “hardcore data scientists.”

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian: (00:01)

I'm Damian Fowler. Welcome to this edition of the current podcast. My co-host Ilyse Liffreing is away.

Damian: (00:10)

This week. I sit down with Arian, the senior Vice President and chief marketing officer for booking.com. Since it was founded in 1996 in Amsterdam, booking.com has grown from a small Dutch startup to one of the world's leading digital travel companies. The company's stated mission is to make it easier for everyone to experience the world. Part of Booking Holdings inc. booking.com is a truly global company available in 43 languages. And with more than 28 million accommodations listed, Arian joined the company in 2019 and overseas marketing efforts worldwide. As such, he's responsible for all initiatives across the marketing funnel from brand social performance and innovation. We started by talking about this omnichannel approach.

Arjan: (01:03)

The role of marketing is to accelerate momentum. Uh, so you have to be very, very, very thoughtful where you invest and when you invest, because if there is no momentum in the market, it doesn't really make sense to really spend a lot of money and and convincing people to, to spend money. We look at more than 200 countries in the, in the world and we're really looking like, okay, what's going on in that country? Are we really sure we should weigh in or not? And especially during the pandemic, you can imagine this was kind of a daily, uh, monitoring, uh, because things moved very rapidly and you had, you had to deal with lockdowns and then suddenly demand would drop, uh, completely. And booking.com with my team, we've been able to manage through that in a very flexible mindset. And I think that flexible mindset is still helping us right now.

Arjan: (01:51)

'cause we're really looking very carefully like, oh, does this work? Oh, yes, it works. Let's invest a bit more. Invest a bit more. Okay, now it's enough. Now we go into other channels and I talk a lot about the role of different channels. So I personally always hate the difference between brand marketing, performance marketing. Uh, one of the key things when I started at the company almost five years ago is that, is that we would report separately on our performance marketing spend versus brand marketing spend. I'm like, you know what? Let's not do that anymore. Uh, it's the same money it should perform. And clearly when you work in what we call low intent channels, you have different objectives. Yeah. So low intent, our channels like pr, social media, general, TV advertising, all those kind of good things, but they drive awareness and consideration. They don't necessarily drive an immediate booking where we also work in other channels where it's more about immediate booking.

Damian: (02:44)

It's very interesting to hear you talk about looking at that data from all these different markets you are in. I mean, how do you stay on top of that? It sounds quite strategic and quite data-driven.

Arjan: (02:55)

We are very data-driven. I do think that anyone in marketing now nowadays needs to be data driven. And you know, you can imagine that I have a, a big marketing team, but I can assure you that probably 30% of them are kind of hardcore data scientists. And these are people who are day in, day out will look at effectiveness of our campaigns and then report back and say, Hey, we expect that actually this to happen. But it didn't. And sometimes results are very intuitive and sometimes results are not very intuitive. And I think being honest about that is very important.

Damian: (03:25)

In 2023, we had a little bit of a resurgence of optimism in the economy after 2022, and it seems that business travel is back in popularity. The summer of 2023 saw record numbers even from even before the pandemic. I'm wondering from your perspective, how has booking.com experienced this post pandemic travel surge? Is that predicted to continue?

Arjan: (03:47)

Yeah, so one of the great learnings I think from the pandemic is that people have just this amazing desire to travel. That's exactly what it is about. You know, like each of us, you know, you probably will agree, is that when it's holiday time, you're like, oh my God, this is amazing. I'm, I'm going away in a different environment. I'm experiencing different food, different people, uh, different weather, et cetera, et cetera. So the Pandemic was a huge confirmation of travel just being an enormous part of people's life. And of all the things that you experience in your, in your life, supposedly only 12% you actively remember. Uh, so, uh, from everything that you experience in your life. And the reality is that probably those trips you've made, those special trips, that wonderful Weekend to Paris or that amazing time in in Wyoming, those are the things that you remember. And I think travel plays really a, a big role. You could argue that the experiences almost are more valued than material, uh, possessions, uh, because what is better than a, a wonderful experience. So that was a huge confirmation of what we probably intrinsically already knew. But you see that especially after the pandemic, there was a thing, uh, called revenge Travel. You might remember that term. Other people were like, you know what? I don't care. I'm getting out of here.

Damian: (05:03)

I'm curious to get your perspective on how you're using that data. We've just talked about Antech, you know, to personalize that user experience and, and the way you kind of focus on the different types of travelers within your marketing efforts.

Arjan: (05:16)

What we try to do is make it easy for people to book, uh, with us, but then also book again. And we have a program called a Genius program that really makes it more interesting also for the more casual traveler to book with us. You know, when you stay with us a little bit more, you go up a level and there are actually three levels that you can, uh, can achieve. And that means you can get a little bit more benefit. I do think that the mindset around business travel has changed significantly after the pandemic. Uh, I look at myself before the pandemic, I would jump in a plane for a meeting of two, three hours. Now Aari will say, can I do this on a Zoom call

Damian: (05:49)

From the US perspective, I know you're the official partner of the Major League Baseball League here and um, latest campaign features Ken Griffey Jr. And last year the Brand Somewhere, anywhere campaign featured Melissa McCarthy, which debuted during the Super Bowl, which of course is nearly already sold out for 2024. I'm wondering, you know, how does booking.com pair sports lovers with what your overall strategy is? What do you, how do you think about that?

Arjan: (06:16)

I do think as a brand, it's incredibly important that you're part of the zeitgeist. Uh, and if you look at where people are spending their time and where their passions lie, sports play a huge role. I think the top 10, you know, most viewed television programs will all be sports. That's kind of the reality of today. And so that, that if you want to reach a mass audience that is engaged in an area that is very much in the zeitgeist, you cannot ignore sports anymore. Mass reach has become actually quite, quite difficult. And we really believe by being part of tournaments where people are really passionate about their sports will really show up. Well. The key aim in the US is also that people know us as, uh, a brand that's very good for outbound travel. Yeah. So if you want to travel outside of the us but we also want to really reiterate, hey, we're a brand that's also fantastic for domestic travel, and we have a little tag line is that says where, where there's how I said where, where there's baseball, there's booking has gone.

Damian: (07:13)

And then I guess, you know, you are align with different sports in different markets. Obviously Europe must be, we have to say the word soccer, but Europe is soccer, right?

Arjan: (07:21)

Yeah. So, uh, we're proud sponsors and we have been of ufa, which is a big deal, you know, live stops in Europe. Uh, so when, when the major games are on, you know, you can probably, uh, skate on, on, on a highway because you know, there is no traffic. But we also have done ICC crickets, which if you're not into cricket, you're like, what is this? But I can assure you there are more than a billion people passionately care about, uh, a cricket, especially in India, Australia, uh, South Africa, uh, the uk. Uh, so those are markets where cricket is immensely popular. We're also, were proud sponsors of the FIFA Women's World Cup. So I I was very happy with that. 'cause you see also that that sport is really increasing so dramatically and wonderful to be part of that.

Damian: (08:06)

And you mentioned how sports are being fragmented across streaming platforms. Does that complicate your efforts when it comes to marketing, or do you just have to be more tuned into that omni-channel approach that we were talking about?

Arjan: (08:19)

We really care also about the kind of communal moments. Yeah. So what are the times that you're sitting with your friends or family and you are watching together? And when you show up in those moments, we think it's really powerful. The strategy of showing up in more individual channels is more kind of a one-on-one approach, uh, where you are on your phone or you're on your computer or you're on your iPad watching something that interests specifically you. But being part of those kind of communal moments, we really care about that.

Damian: (08:50)

Booking.com is owned by Booking Holdings, which owns a host of other, uh, websites including priceline.com, a goda.com, kayak, cheap Flights, rental Cars, and OpenTable amongst others. I'm wondering, you know, what's the synergy like between the companies when it comes to marketing? Is, is the same data applied across all brands? We

Arjan: (09:11)

Operate quite independently, and that's on purpose. Uh, I'm a, I'm a strong believer in kind of healthy competition. Uh, so, so really keeping each other honest, being very focused on our very specific segments of the market. And with a goda price line have, we're addressing a more specific price conscious, uh, segment in the market. Booking at com is a little bit more for everyone. Kayak is clearly in a very specific industry. And the same for OpenTable. We meet every month. So I meet with the heads of marketing of, of every brand once a month, and we really talk through our marketing strategies and really, of course, try to learn from each other.

Damian: (09:45)

Are there any specific challenges or obstacles you, you've encountered when it comes to implementing this omnichannel strategy? What, what are your kind of main challenges?

Arjan: (09:55)

We have a slightly different model probably than most companies is that, uh, we have very strong relationships with a couple of key ad platforms and we do that direct. Uh, so we don't really have an intermediary, we don't have an agency, so we work directly with Meta, Facebook, Instagram, we work directly with YouTube and, and, and Google. And that approach has, in my perspective, big advantages. It also has clearly disadvantages that you have to staff up and you have to really understand, you know, how things work and you need to be able to manage the technology.

Damian: (10:27)

Booking.com operates in over 208 countries and you know, you're talking about strategies across all those different languages, cultures, regional preferences, and presumably, you know, economies are different as well in different parts of the world. How do you sort of manage all of that?

Arjan: (10:43)

The key thing to, to realize is that there's also a lot of commonality. And so, so you shouldn't underestimate that wherever you are in the world. We're kind of all human beings and we kind of all do the same things. And the joke I often make is that if you think of a romantic dinner, so imagine you are in Japan or you are in Columbia or you're in North America, romantic dinner is a romantic dinner. It generally involves two people. It generally involves some nice food and and drinks. And it generally involves a nice table with people seated. Uh, there, it generally doesn't involve loud music, it has kind of soft music. You could argue that of course a romantic dinner in Japan. It's very different to Columbia. But there are also lots of commonalities. And what we are trying to do is really focus on the kind of commonalities that were set up in our campaigns in the right way, from a measurement point of view, from a data point of view, from the way we go to market.

Arjan: (11:39)

And then suddenly we're, we're actually very effective in tailoring our language, our messages to someone in Japan versus Columbia. But the fundamentals are intrinsically the same. One key thing I really care about is truth telling that as a brand, you tell the truth about yourself. And I think a lot of brands actually go wrong there, that they claim to be something that they aren't. And it doesn't mean you need to be boring or non engaging, but you should be very clear about the position you have in people's lives. And the position we have in people's lives is, you know, what we're the best at just getting it out of the way. Book that kind of great place and 1, 2, 3, you are done. And that's the reason we're also using booking.com booking. Yeah. 'cause yeah, it's that kind of positive feeling of, hey, it's out of the way.

Damian: (12:22)

I read an interview with CEO Glenn Fogel in the FT actually talking about AI and how the company's preparing for the AI era. And he said something along the lines of AI can take the friction out of holiday planning. I'm wondering if that's a focus for you from the marketing seat that you are in.

Arjan: (12:40)

Generative AI clearly has many aspects. Uh, so, and Glenn is really talking about the traveler experience, really making sure we take the friction out of everything and that we more or less are able to predict much better what your next step would be based on, you know, on those models. I do think that in marketing specifically, there is probably also a huge productivity opportunity by using generative ai, be it in how we do our performance marketing, but also how we develop, uh, creatives. Uh, we're experimenting with AI generated videos that we're putting out on, on, on YouTube that are very tailored to very specific searches that people are doing on, on YouTube. I really focus with my team also on that kind of productivity side of it. Uh, can we really make, again, every dollar work a little bit harder using smart technology?

Damian: (13:32)

Are there any other emerging technologies or trends? Uh, I mean, one thought was the focus on sustainability, for instance, that will have an impact on future omnichannel marketing efforts.

Arjan: (13:43)

The interesting thing is that as any company in the world and especially a company in travel, sustainability is clearly something you have to just obsess about. It's something that is really important and I talk a lot about purpose. Uh, what is the purpose of, of our company? What is the purpose in in our marketing? And I really see sustainability as kind of, kind of foundational you would expect from any reputable company to really care about this and that we each contribute to, uh, helping improve sustainability in, in the world.

Damian: (14:19)

And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week with Barbara Shipley, senior Vice President of Brand integration at A A RP. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. A theme is by loving caliber. The current podcast team includes Chris Ley and Cat Bessie. And remember,

Arjan: (14:37)

One key thing I really care about is truth telling at that as a brand, you tell the truth about yourself. And I think a lot of brands actually go wrong there, that they claim to be something that they aren't. And it doesn't mean you need to be boring or non engaging, but you should be very clear about the position you have in people's lives.

Damian: (14:54)

And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave as a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet. I'm Damien and I'll see you next time.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Fresh off pandemic fame, Moderna wants consumers to know how it’s applying mRNA technology to reimagine health and wellness. Among other strategies, the company is leaning into sports and music to reach consumers when they’re likely to be most receptive. 

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

 

Damian Fowler: (00:01)

I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse Lieffring: (00:02)

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

Damian Fowler: (00:03)

And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Ilyse Lieffring: (00:10)

This week we sit down with Kate Cronin, the chief brand Officer for Moderna.

Damian Fowler: (00:15)

Moderna is a biotech company based in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The focuses on MRNA therapies and vaccines against a wide range of illnesses including cancer, COVID-19 and the flu.

Ilyse Lieffring: (00:26)

Although the company was founded in 2010, it became a familiar brand name during the pandemic when it received full approval for its CVID 19 vaccine by the US Food and Drug Administration.

Damian Fowler: (00:38)

Since then, it's positioned itself to become a more commercial company and it's opening up direct to consumer marketing channels using digital messaging to reach healthcare providers and patients alike.

Kate Cronin: (00:53)

If you think about the healthcare landscape and where we are, we came out of a pandemic that changed everything. The pandemic turned every company into a healthcare company because companies were focused on the health and wellbeing of either their employees or their constituents or their customers. And that means hotels, airlines, travel, restaurants. It changed everything. And I think what happened is in a post pandemic world, people are laser focused on health and wellness. And looking at Moderna, we are leaning into that new focus on health and wellness and new understanding of health and wellness. And so as a company, we're leaning in on educating the world about our technology and what we believe we're going to do to change the future of healthcare.

Damian Fowler: (01:40)

And on that point, how has that impacted the way you go to market and the way you have rolled out marketing strategies? I understand it's a pretty big shift for the brand.

Kate Cronin: (01:50)

For the first 10 years of Moderna's life, we were an r and d company, so we focused on research and development. That means we studied products, the lab, and we did not have any products commercialized, so we never took a product to market. When Covid struck our CEO realized, hey, we have an opportunity with mRNA to see if our technology works against Covid. And the good news is it did. And so we are super proud of the fact that our first commercial product was for Covid, shot in the arms of billions of people around the world, literally prevented serious disease and hospitalization. And so that changed our company. And because the pandemic was the first time when people actually asked for a vaccine or knew their vaccine by name, you know, people would walk around and say, I, you know, I've got Pfizer or I got Moderna, or whatever it was.

Kate Cronin: (02:39)

And they were proud of the fact that they got the shot to prevent Covid. And so there was instant brand recognition. So Moderna was not a household name until the pandemic and suddenly became a global brand. Everybody knew the name Moderna and what everybody knew was Moderna was a company that manufactured a COVID-19 vaccine. What they didn't know is everything else that we were doing. And so I was hired in the middle of the pandemic to start educating around who is Moderna? What is our brand? What do we stand for? What's our identity and how do we reach consumers about the future of MRA technology and where we're going beyond covid. That's been the the focus. And that's not just for healthcare providers. People were getting it from pharmacists. They were not going to their doctors to get shots. So it was a very much of a consumer driven market. And because it was consumer driven, that's where I was leaning in on my focus on consumers and educating them about mRNA. So many people had it in their arms, did they know exactly what it did and why should they care? We started changing the dynamic in terms of how we reach our audiences.

Damian Fowler: (03:45)

Would you mind defining what mRNA is? I know it's in the name of the company, Moderna.

Kate Cronin: (03:51)

Interestingly, the agency that I worked at named Moderna, it's basically about mRNA. And mRNA is known as Messenger ribonucleic acid. And mRNA is a molecule that contains a set of instructions or a recipe, if you will, that direct cells to make a protein using the body's natural machinery to fight disease or prevent disease. And that's really what it is. It's a set of instructions and if you think about Moderna, the name, we came up with Moderna because it's modern, we believe we're gonna transform medicines, but it has RNA at the end. So it was very, it was a very nice play on modern and then RNA, so Moderna

Damian Fowler: (04:33)

A perfect brand name.

Kate Cronin: (04:35)

Yeah, yeah, it worked out. It worked out really well.

Ilyse Lieffring: (04:37)

Do you think Covid and Vaccine Awareness opened up new direct to consumer channels? Do you think it's good timing with immunization season?

Kate Cronin: (04:47)

So I think COVID definitely opened up new channels and here's why. People started to really care about vaccination in ways they never did before. During the pandemic, you weren't able to go out, you weren't able to see your friends, you weren't able to see your family. Getting the vaccine meant everything and getting the vaccine meant you were able to live your life again. And so you cared about that vaccine and you wanted to know who makes this vaccine. You wanted to know what's in this vaccine and why is it letting me get back to my life? How does it work? How does it all work? I mean, imagine, you know, pre pandemic when you would get your flu shot, people get the flu shot, it's great and you just know you're gonna prevent flu. In the pandemic world, you got your covid shot and it meant everything to you.

Kate Cronin: (05:29)

And so there became this loyalty to the brand that started. You know, you never knew who manufactured your flu shot, generally speaking, you just generically asked for a flu shot. But when Covid struck and you'd get your booster, you said, well, I got Moderna before, so now I want my Moderna booster. And you were loyal to Moderna, A fandom was created. How do we build on that? People who are fans wanna know like, how do I interact with this company? And you know, what's next? And when we launch a flu vaccine or a combination Covid flu vaccine, we want people to understand, oh, that's the company that brought me the Covid shot. I understand mRNA and I understand what I'm putting in my body. As you know, there was a lot of debate and discussion about these new vaccines and can they be trusted? And the reality is, if you understand the technology and that it's a set of instructions and it's teaching your body to fight, you understand that this new technology is effective and tolerable and there are, it was generated with safety in mind. As we move into new categories, it's the same methodology and it's not a new chemical entity, it's just a new set of instructions. And that's why we think it's important for people to understand it. So as we launch new products, they don't have to understand the intricacy, but the general gist of how it works,

Ilyse Lieffring: (06:41)

How would you say Moderna is going about fusing this education in with its marketing strategy?

Kate Cronin: (06:49)

So knowing that we want to reach folks and educate them, we lean in on this idea of education and entertainment, which I'm calling edutainment. People retain more when they're being entertained, I think. And so with that in mind, we're reaching people where they are. So instead of lecturing consumers about, you know, you need to get vaccinated, we spend more time engaging with them when they're at sporting events or when they're at concerts, reaching them when they're having fun and they're open to hearing more. So for example, at the US Open, we sponsored it two years in a row and as a sponsor we also have a booth and we're able to engage with consumers at the booth. They can download a QR code, they can sign the lens, which is something that champions do. And then they, we create a boomerang they can use on social media and then they can become part of the Moderna community where people are able to opt in and say, yeah, I wanna hear more from Moderna.

Kate Cronin: (07:43)

Same thing with the iHeart Music Festival. And we actually had wristbands where they could download a QR code, find out where they can get their vaccines, so go to vaccines.gov. And also Ryan Seacrest did some informational podcast stuff for us and he announced the concert and you know, announced this idea of stay healthy, stay up to date, get your vaccine, bringing this model in. We also looked at habits of consumers and there are people who are religious about getting their flu shot. Those are the people where you say, well if you're religious about getting your flu shot, how do we make sure you also get your covid shot? And the CDC says it's safe to get your flu and your covid shot at the same time in terms of compliance. It's easier to get that message and say while you're at the pharmacy getting your flu shot, get your covid shot and then you don't have to go back for another visit. And that increases compliance as well. The future for Covid is gonna be very similar to flu once a year, get your flu shot, get your covid shot, and then you don't have to get another one until the next year. That's for most people. I think for the highly immune compromise or the elderly, there might be a boost needed in the spring, but the current recommendation is once a year.

Damian Fowler: (08:45)

It's fascinating to hear you talk about, you know, using sports, using music celebrities, you know, to reach audiences. And I know that Moderna has taken this omnichannel approach using these very tailored messages. And I know your CCO talked about this as a priority. Could you talk a little bit more about that omnichannel approach across different digital channels is an effective way of reaching, I mean an audience of potential patients, I suppose is the way of putting it.

Kate Cronin: (09:10)

We're in a world where the channels where people get their information has exploded. 10 years ago we didn't have Instagram, TikTok, pharma traditionally would use DTC advertising. And so we look specifically at our audiences and where they are, where they get their information, including inline broadcast tv. I mean a lot of older people watch, you know, shows like CBS this morning. If you think about when I find myself watching CBS this morning, I've sort of realized I'm I'm, I've hit a certain age, but uh, , we also do media buys based on where we have sponsorships. So we did a whole thing with series of ads with ESPM where we did a changemaker campaign where we celebrated changemakers. So last year we celebrated Billie Jean King. This year we did creative that celebrated Arthur Ashe. Again, Moderna is really associating ourselves with change makers because we believe we are change makers in the healthcare industry, which is part of our platform.

Ilyse Lieffring: (10:33)

Now Moderna has to work directly with healthcare professionals. Would you say the same channels to reach consumers are also just as beneficial perhaps in reaching those healthcare professionals?

Kate Cronin: (10:44)

Healthcare professionals, they get a lot of their information through journals and studies. And I like to say the number one journal that physicians read is the Wall Street Journal. So we really push out our data and our clinical trial information through earned media and also specific to physicians. There are medical meetings and associations where they get their information, but we've been incredibly transparent as a company. When we get new data out, we issue a press release, we call top journalists, let them know. We offer up our executives and our doctors as spokespeople to share the information and spend more time with the journalists. This has been like this through the entire pandemic. And I think that's one thing about Moderna is we are incredibly open and transparent with everything in our data. And so I think earned media is the fastest way to get information out. Once you issue a press release, you're able to talk to the media directly and then folks trust the media and they're gonna give an unbiased objective story.

Ilyse Lieffring: (11:40)

Now I know during covid, like social media was full of disinformation regarding Covid and it was a challenge for any company. Do you feel that disinformation is still a big challenge?

Kate Cronin: (11:52)

Challenge As a company, we need to focus on what we do well, which is deliver the science and deliver the information and education around the science. We've struggled with disinformation about Moderna and about our executives and we look at that through the lens of what can we change and what should we change and what do we just need to leave alone because we're never gonna be able to change. We then focus on education. We also did some things with kind of debunking myths. We actually hired somebody to do some work with our employees on pre debunking myths versus facts and getting our ed, our employees educated on, here's some things you're gonna be hearing about on the internet or from friends and family and here are a set of facts that you can use to debunk some of the things that you might be hearing so that our employees are better armed with information and can be good ambassadors for the brand.

Damian Fowler: (12:43)

Now I guess, you know, other biotech companies must also be kind of lockstep with you in the sense of that myth or debunking or myth busting. But at the same time I'm wondering, you know, about the space and your sense of place in it. How do you think about the space?

Kate Cronin: (12:58)

So we are very different from a pharmaceutical company in that we are a platform technology company. So when you look at competitors, we don't really see pharma as competitors. We see ourselves as a unicorn because we are a platform technology company. An analogy would be Apple with the iOS system and Apple's iOS system is basically everything runs off of iOS and when you have a new app, it's off of the iOS. So it's updates to the iOS. We look at our mRNA platform the same way we have mRNA platform technology and whenever we have a new product, new vaccine, new therapy, it's basically like an updated app to the iOS system. So we take that iOS, we recode for a new product using mRNA, and then we tweak it based on the needs. So for example, we have a flu vaccine that we're studying. We had to tweak it because we're working off of one system and we're basically recoding the product. We were able to update it very quickly and study a newer version of it. And then that's the one that we're gonna be continuing to study and hopefully, you know, launch, it's very unusual 'cause when a pharma company has a product, it's a new chemical entity, they call it an NCE, they test it. If it fails, it's done, it's over, they have to start over again. We don't start over again. We can tweak and modify very quickly. So we have agility in a platform.

Damian Fowler: (14:20)

Yeah, that's a fascinating analogy. And at the same time, you know, you're creating these new products and you obviously have to give them brand names too. I know that the Covid vaccine isn't, isn't now Spike vax, right? For instance.

Kate Cronin: (14:32)

So it's an interesting conundrum. As I said earlier, the pandemic made Moderna a household name. So now we're out of the pandemic and we're an endemic market. An endemic market, you have to have a brand name, I wanted to name it Moderna COVID-19 vaccine. And they don't let you do that. They won't let you do that, you have to call it something. So the team came up with Spike Vax, but we couldn't just call it Spike Vax because no one's gonna know what Spike Vax is. So we call it Spike Vax by Moderna. If you think about consumer branding overall, there's this idea of a branded house or you have a house of brands. We are a combination of a hybrid of a branded house and a house of brands. So hybridizing it is making sure the company name is included because everyone knows our name and also attaching it to a product name. And then there are other ways to connect the dots in terms of the brand. So we have little M that shows up. And then just in terms of the architecture, the visual architecture works when you have different products that you're launching. 'cause we want people to know when they see it, they go, oh, that's a Moderna product. So Bio Moderna is very intentional in terms of how we brand

Ilyse Lieffring: (10:02)

Can you tell us a little bit about what the Spike Vax by Moderna campaign looks like?

Kate Cronin: (10:07)

Spike Vax by Moderna is our branded campaign and it's about all the things you do with your body. You know, you exercise that body, you provide nutrients to that body, you spike vax, that body. And so just normalizing what you do with your body. It's just like you wanna keep your body healthy and you wanna live your life and do all the things you do with that body. Spike vax, that body. We also say, you know, you flu shot that body spike vax, that body

Ilyse Lieffring: (15:36)

Now. What has aligned with kind of the rise of healthcare data and general consumer interest in their healthcare has also been the rise of retail media and data being that Moderna is going direct to consumer. How important is retail data to its vaccine marketing?

Kate Cronin: (15:54)

We look at data and analytics, that's something that drives everything that we do. If you think about Covid vaccines, we're able to look on a weekly basis and see how many people are getting shots in arms, where are they getting the shots? All the way from when it goes to the wholesaler to when it's shipped to the retail pharmacies. We have a good sense of the penetration of the market in terms of vaccination and we can see regionally attitudes as well. You know, where are people inclined to get a vaccine, where are they on the fence? And so we're able to target our efforts and educational efforts in markets where we think we can move the needle and where we can get people to understand the importance of going and getting their vaccine. We work closely also with the retailers, the CVSs and the Walgreens of the world who are working with us to educate and use their channels as well to make sure that when people are in the store, they are hearing information about staying up to date with their COVID-19 vaccine. So super important to have that information. It's also important to know where are their outbreaks of covid, how many outbreaks there are, what are the hospital, what are the weekly hospitalization rates? Because Covid continues to be quite serious. People are still getting sick unfortunately. And so we're monitoring that as well. And that informs a lot of our marketing efforts also.

Damian Fowler: (17:10)

Do you think there's still more work to be done in the sort of educating the consumer about the virus? I mean, I've heard people say, well I've had Covid or I've had my covid shot, so I therefore I have antibodies, I don't need to get a shot. I mean, how, how do you think about these different cohorts?

Kate Cronin: (17:26)

There's the people who, who are gonna go and get vaccinated. There're the folks who are hearing misinformation and saying, you know, I'm just not sure should I, I've already had COID. So those are the people we really need to lean in on because we need them to understand. We just need to do our part and educate people on that. And then there's the, the vaccine fatiguers. That's a new category. This is a new category based on covid. I mean, vaccine fatigue is not anti-Vax vaccine fatigue is someone who did the right thing. They went every time they got all their shots and they're tired of getting shots. They're tired of being told they need to get another vaccine. And those are folks who are, you know, they wanna do the right thing, but they're just, they're tired of it. The market has changed. It's a one shot, not a booster system anymore.

Kate Cronin: (18:10)

You get one shot just like flu and then you go back the next year. Them understanding that is important too. 'cause then they know that the vaccination plan is normalized. We've been focused on this idea of stay up to date, stay vaccinated. Our campaign is called No Time for 19, the Unbranded campaign. Get your flu shot, get your covid shot, stay healthy. And that's the focus. So we don't even mention spike vax and that's intentional because we are all about market growth in terms of get people vaccinated and a rising tide floats all boats. That's very different from a very branded campaign where you're leaning in on product attributes versus your competitors. In this particular case, we're more about getting people into the pharmacy and getting their vaccine. So that's our focus.

Damian Fowler: (19:05)

And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

Ilyse Lieffring: (19:10)

And if you love this podcast, be sure to subscribe and leave a review. While you're at it, check out our other show, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's happening in the world of digital media. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.

Damian Fowler: (19:29)

And remember,

Kate Cronin: (19:30)

Edutainment people retain more when they're being entertained. We're reaching people where they are. We spend more time engaging with them when they're at sporting events or when they're at concerts, reaching them when they're having fun and they're open to hearing more.

Damian Fowler: (19:44)

I'm Damian

Ilyse Lieffring: (19:45)

And I'm Ilyse,

Damian Fowler: (19:46)

And we'll see you next time.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

As a 102-year-old brand, White Castle has become a niche part of culture, from the “Harold & Kumar Go to White Castle” movie to people getting married at the restaurant. Jamie Richardson, VP of marketing and public relations, discusses maintaining the White Castle brand as a pop culture icon.

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

 

DAMIAN (00:01):

I'm Damian Fowler.

ILYSE (00:02):

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. And

DAMIAN (00:04):

Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

ILYSE (00:10):

This week we sit down with Jamie Richardson, VP of Marketing and Public Relations at White Castle, the 100 and 2-year-old brand that's been part of pop culture and a mainstay in American fast food since it was opened by founder Billy Ingram as a family business in 1921. It now operates around 342 US locations.

DAMIAN (00:32):

From the 2004 film, Harold and Kumar go to White Castle to making headlines for hosting weddings. White Castle manages to maintain its status as a pop culture icon while innovating in new areas like grocery and delivery.

JAMIE RICHARDSON (00:53):

Well, you know, when you work at White Castle, you get calls from all over the world, and one fine day somebody called their 800 line, and I had the opportunity to speak to this person and they said they were from Hollywood, and that there's this film about two likable underdogs who spent an evening of misadventure looking for White Castle. So we said, sure, send us the script. And then I remember taking the script home and taking a look at it, and they forgot to mention it was rated R for raunchy. So that was a little surprising. Um, but, uh, we had some good debate internally. And then I had the opportunity to talk to our CEO and third generation leader, uh, bill Ingram. I had the perfect pitch down. I was really ready to, to sell this big idea. I remember walking into Bill's office and panicking, and the first thing I blurted out was, it has sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Other than that, it's really good for us. And he kind of paused and looked up and said, what in the world are you talking about? And when I told him a little bit more, he, he looked and said, well, as long as it doesn't make fun of our team members, I'm fine with it. So that's how the greatest film that never won an Academy award. Harold and Kumar go to White Castle, got green-lighted thanks to Bill Ingram. That's

ILYSE (01:59):

Great. It must have helped business. What would you say are other unique aspects of White Castle, whether it's like the menu, branding or history and how that contributes also to its ongoing presence in pop culture?

JAMIE RICHARDSON (02:12):

You know, I think for us it's about being relevant and being resonant and having a reverence from where we've been, but also at the same time connecting with consumers today where they are. So, um, certainly at the base of it all, it's about hot, tasty, affordable food. Just like our founder Billy Ingram imagined at the very beginning, he really believed every family should be able to have an affordable evening out. Um, and but beyond that, I think we've been able to be a part of people's, uh, memorable moments and, and that connects us emotionally beyond the physical properties of product and the utilitarian value of food. So keeps it fun and real.

ILYSE (02:44):

And do you guys have like a lot of traditions when it comes to that? It seems, um, it, it seems to play a big role at White Castle, actually. Your burgers have pretty much stayed consistent and then certain traditions have continued on, such as like people get married at White Castle, which is super fun. And then you have a Valentine's Day celebration now, I believe in its 32nd year. Why is it important to continue traditions that consumers know and love? You

JAMIE RICHARDSON (03:13):

Know, I think for White Castle, uh, as a family owned business that's been around for 102 years, our neighbors and friends are the people we serve every day in each of the communities we're in. So for us, uh, you know, around Valentine's Day, white Castle becomes love castle and people make reservations three months in advance to get that special seeding. And I think it's us not taking ourselves too seriously and having some fun with it and recognizing we, we exist to feed the souls of Craver generations everywhere.

DAMIAN (03:39):

Now, Jamie, you mentioned, uh, the word relevant, which obviously is key to any brand, you know, staying relevant and especially in the sector that you are in a competitive restaurant and fast food category. I'm wondering how White Castle has adapted to changing consumer taste and trends, um, whilst it's preserving this 102 year old iconic status.

JAMIE RICHARDSON (03:58):

I, I think for us it's about not being locked into something that we've done just because that's the way we've done it before. It's about meeting people where they are. And the best way to do that is ask good questions, listen intently, and then have that be the foundation for your actions. So, um, we're big believers in consumer research. We're big believers in getting out and talking to the team members and talking with our customers, whether that's on the retail side of our business where we sell, uh, sliders in the grocery store or in our restaurants at the Drive-through or in the dining room. So for us, it's really about listening. And that might sound a little cliche, but we actively lean into it and treat it as a discipline and part of who we are. Um, our vision is feed the souls of Craver generations everywhere. You can't do that if you don't know what people are hungry for. So that's a, a constant focus for us and, and we learn and grow because needs and desires change as time goes on.

DAMIAN (04:50):

You mentioned, uh, adding a grocery business, uh, as well as delivery options. Could you talk a little bit about how the consumer data or leaning into that consumer data played a role in that decision and adding that delivery option for White Castle?

JAMIE RICHARDSON (05:04):

Absolutely. I think we saw that especially as hot and tasty, affordable food became more available through delivery partnerships. It's something we leaned into early. So hey, we're small in the grand scheme of things on the restaurant side, you know, we're a regional player, we have 342 restaurants, so we're not monolithic, we're not global, but in each of our neighborhoods, we want to be a big part of everyone's, uh, opportunity for great food. So when delivery came along, we quickly, uh, were able to forge great partnerships with all the different delivery partners, and we found our customers loved it. It was just one more way to be able to experience the crave, and they told us again and again, um, that that was something they wanted available to 'em. So it's great to be there 24 7, like most of our restaurants are, uh, having another option in terms of how to enjoy the food just seemed to make sense to us and we're really happy we jumped in when we did and we're continuing to grow and build that side of the business.

DAMIAN (05:55):

And, and you mentioned market research. What are the types of consumer demographics that you research, uh, on that crave continuum?

JAMIE RICHARDSON (06:03):

You know, that's interesting. Uh, the Crave continuum is something we created, uh, or discovered is probably a better way to say it. So we created language around it, but it, and in many ways it is taking the traditional demographics and psychographics so many of us lean into as marketers and putting it into the super collider and, and smashing it to bits and starting over. So we've been able to build it really around behaviors. So it isn't purely just the demographics. Um, for us it's about understanding two key things in terms of people's relationship to White Castle, their fandom and how frequently they visit us, so, uh, or purchase in the grocery store. So from that lens, we're able to understand where people are at in the continuum from crave cautious at one end for those souls we haven't connected to yet, but we will someday to crave committed at the other end of the spectrum with crave curious and crave casual in between. So it's been a really rich way for us to explore messaging. It's been a really rich way for us to explore media with all of our different agency partners in terms of how to get the, the right messages to the right people at the right time.

ILYSE (07:06):

Speaking about what you call Cravers and the fandom around that, um, you've created really this whole culture around it. What is White Castle doing to continue to support and market this culture and why is it important for a brand to have such a culture anyway?

JAMIE RICHARDSON (07:23):

Well, I think purpose is what it all comes down to. So, uh, if you know why it exists, it makes it a lot more fun to invest your time and energy and talent, uh, towards creating something that's meant to last that's meaningful. And when, um, we discovered the strong emotional connection so many have with White Castle, we realized that that was gold. That you can, you can spend a lot of money, can come up with a lot of great ideas and things that look good on the chalkboard, but when you have something like that, that's such a great attribute to be able to connect with people in that way. So I think around that idea of craving, we understood there's language that unlocked how so many people felt. And um, as I mentioned earlier, that listening part really played a role in that. So we literally hired a trained psychologist to interview some of our biggest fans and over and over and over again, one word, um, you know, was, was echoed and it was, I get a certain craving for him, I crave 'em late at night, I crave 'em at breakfast. And, um, including one gentleman who told a story about taking white castles on an airplane, and then he named one of our competitors, I won't say their name, and he said, you never see anyone carrying that brand onto an airplane now, do you? right. People love White Castle. Is that right? That told us we were in the right direction.

DAMIAN (08:38):

You know, we talk about meeting people where they are and when it comes to this younger generation, often they're, you know, across social media. How are you kind of, uh, thinking about your campaigns across all these different platforms that young people, you know, are looking at exploring, even gaming? Are any of those channels places where White Castle campaigns are kind of prominent?

JAMIE RICHARDSON (08:56):

I think primarily it's, uh, the notion that we wanna be as distinctive and as individualistic as this next generation of consumers is going to be and already is. And so for us it's just knowing the, the place you're at. So don't try and make one size fits all, so don't try and take something that you posted on Facebook and turn it into a TikTok. Um, you know, do it in a way that meets, uh, the viewer's expectations that provides engagement and candidly entertainment, if you will. Uh, you know, having fun with it. We are just, um, in the midst of a really cool recipe contest where Adam Richmond, the food beast, is serving as one of the judges and, uh, encouraging people to have fun with the food. And it's not a selling message, it's an engagement message. And I think that part of it is really essential in terms of how you make those connections and make, make 'em authentic.

DAMIAN (09:45):

I like that distinction. It's not a selling message, it's an engagement message that, that's interesting. I

ILYSE (09:49):

Also know that White Castle locations and how those are run play a big factor in creating a good business. White Castle founder Billy Ingram said, I believe happy employees make happy customers. Can you talk a little bit about that?

JAMIE RICHARDSON (10:04):

So we are so fortunate as a family owned business to have so many of our 10,000 team members who are really, uh, in it for the long haul. In fact, more than one in four have been with White Castle 10 years or more. And among our general managers for the restaurants, the average tenure is 21 years. Uh, so I think a few people retired last year, so we had a turnover rate of 3%. But it's really, really cool to see that engagement and that focus to the point where for the third year in a row, we've been certified as a great place to work. We're the only fast food and food manufacturing business that's on that list. So it's really an honor and tough demanding circumstances to know we're there with our team members in lockstep to help satisfy the crave any way we can every single day of the year.

DAMIAN (10:46):

I wanna ask you a little bit about the kind of nostalgic feel that White Castle has kind of created and especially for different generations and how you think about the different generations when it comes to your marketing. Yeah,

JAMIE RICHARDSON (10:58):

I think for us it's really about constancy of purpose. So we, we don't run away from the word nostalgia, but rather than it being evocative of times past, we want it to be in present tense. We want it to be something where that emotional reward is just as present today, even if it takes slightly different form than it did earlier. A big part of that is the great value we provide in so many ways. In 1927, we were the first restaurant chain to say, Hey, what if you came in and picked up your food and took it home? So we were the first restaurant that we've ever found that was offering carryout, and we started doing that by selling 'em by the sack. So you could get each individual hamburger in its own little carton and a sack of 10 Togo. And later on that led to the Crave Case and then the Crave Crate, and then, uh, for a brief time the Crave Palette. But you know, it took us a little longer to make 7,000 Burgers than we thought. So that's no longer on the menu, but if you, if you call us, we'll take good care of you.

DAMIAN (11:52):

But you've also now launched a campaign called Micro Castle that promotes the idea that anyone with a microwave can have their White Castle at home thanks to the burgers in grocery stores. Could you talk a little bit how that came to be the strategy behind promoting buying sliders at grocery stores over the physical retail locations?

JAMIE RICHARDSON (12:10):

Absolutely. So it's so much fun because it's another great story about listening. So our third generation leader, uh, and CEO, bill Ingram visited every restaurant every year. And in one of his visits in a New York Castle, he saw a person like literally leaving with four acts of 10. So he just wandered over and said hello and said, oh, are you off to a party? Are you, he goes, oh, no, no, no, no, I put these in my freezer. And then Bill leaned in, so what do you do with them in your freezer? He said, oh, I've got a new appliance that I use to reheat 'em. It's called the Microwave Oven . And, uh, and so Bill thought, Hmm, you know, people are microwaving our sliders. Maybe we could sell 'em through the grocery store. And it's a fun story because I won't mention their names, but he approached three well-known global manufacturers and said, Hey, would you like to, we'll license this to you? And they all kinda laughed at him and said, no one will ever buy fast food from a grocery store. So thankfully he wasn't discouraged, but, but, uh, we did it ourselves. And so today we have three dedicated frozen food plants and that, uh, side of our business, our CPG business is 30% of our revenue, a bigger percent of our profit, and it's growing by leaps and bounds. We just, uh, doubled the size of our plant and vandalia to keep up and it's really fun that people can enjoy that flavor and taste. That's

ILYSE (13:20):

Awesome. With all that growth though, there's always some challenges going on, especially in the fast food business. What would you say are some of the, the main challenges that you run into?

JAMIE RICHARDSON (13:31):

I think there's some challenges that are universal. Um, you know, these days more than ever, everyone's trying to work through this moment in time. It's been a crazy four years as we all know, and I think there's still some kind of trying to understanding what's a new normal look like. Um, we've gone beyond supply shortages that seems to have sorted itself out. Labor shortage today isn't as bad as it was a year ago. Um, so many of us on the restaurant hospitality side of things face the same challenges on the CPG side of things. Uh, food costs and inflation are real and trying to maintain that value for consumers who are shopping is real for us. We have distinctive challenges because it's a, a strengthen and an opportunity and the strength is we're small and family owned. The opportunity is we compete against some of the world's biggest brands and being able to stay relevant means we can't spend as much money. We have to think more creatively and try new things and, and connect that way

ILYSE (14:31):

On that. Are there any emerging, like channels you're experimenting in or campaigns that you're trying out for the first time?

JAMIE RICHARDSON (14:38):

I think for us, um, finding new ways to connect with people and manage expectations is something that's so important because we think expectations are gonna continue to look for even faster service, even greater quality and even more accessibility. So our delivery partnerships are great. Our mobile app has continued to grow and we're involved in a major effort right now to revamp and, and relaunch our, our mobile app because we know, um, staying current there is essential to success. So, um, and then when it comes to campaign, we're constantly evolving and modifying and, uh, making the message even more informed and better connected. So with the Crave Continuum as the platform, um, that's something we're leaning into to talk to those different audiences in in ways that matter. We did a really fun local campaign that was what we call brand unified for our restaurants and our, our CPG business where, uh, roller skating, uh, is the place to be, you know, roller skating's back just like vinyl has been. And, uh, so we, we partnered with some, some skating centers and um, you know, fed a lot of people, a ton of sliders, but also had some fun social content that came out of that as well. So I think for us it's always trying new things and, and being open to the learning we get as we go.

DAMIAN (15:52):

You mentioned roller skating, which is interesting, which brings to mind, you know, other sports. I'm wondering what White Castle's relationship is to sports, uh, and live sports. Well,

JAMIE RICHARDSON (16:02):

We are a group of people who have a Super Bowl ambitions, but, uh, you know, much smaller budget. So we are so fortunate to have two great sports partnerships. Uh, one is with USA luge and so, uh, white Castle's the official sponsor of their search for, for luge athletes. Um, the athletes in luge are called sliders, so there's a nice fit there and we've been partners for six years now. Yeah, it's really fun. And uh, you know, we cheer on team USA every four years as they go off to the Olympics, but that's something we get to do fun along the way that encourages youth participation and helps them find the future Olympians as they go around the country. Um, and then just recently we announced a really fun partnership with Major League Pickleball and our local Columbus, Ohio team, which used to be called the Columbus Pickleball Club, has changed its name. They are now the Columbus Sliders and we are cheering them onto victory as they go. So, um, but pickleball is on the rise, and so we find that's a fun, affordable way for us to connect. And I'll tell you that the kids in America are discovering pickleball and it's gonna be big. So we try to catch a rising star whenever we can. And both those opportunities have been huge and a lot of fun for us.

DAMIAN (17:17):

And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

ILYSE (17:21):

The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.

DAMIAN (17:31):

And remember, we

JAMIE RICHARDSON (17:32):

Don't run away from the word nostalgia, but rather than it being evocative of times past, we want it to be in present tense. We want it to be something where that emotional reward is just as present today, even if it takes slightly different form than it did earlier. A big part of that is the

DAMIAN (17:48):

Great value we provide. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's making news in digital media. I'm Damian.

ILYSE (18:01):

I'm Ilyse.

DAMIAN (18:01):

And we'll see you next time.

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Weinstein shares why data and technology are crucial to Hilton’s customers’ experience, the creative philosophy for the hotel’s recent campaign with Paris Hilton, and marketing against home-sharing companies.

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian: (00:01)

I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse: (00:02)

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. And

Damian: (00:03)

Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Ilyse: (00:10)

This week we're delighted to talk with Mark Weinstein, the Chief Marketing Officer at Hilton.

Damian: (00:16)

Mark joined Hilton more than 13 years ago rising to become the CMO in 2020, where he now leads global marketing for the Hilton portfolio of over 7,300 hotels across 22 brands in 123 countries and territories

Ilyse: (00:32)

As travel surged. After all that pent up Wonderlust created during the pandemic, the hotel brand unveiled its biggest marketing push in six years. The campaign focuses on the quality of the travel experience with Hilton Brands. So Mark Hilton, of course, has its own loyalty program, the free Hilton Honors. How many Hilton guests currently take part in this program? What does it offer in terms of perks?

Mark: (01:02)

We have 165 million Hilton Honor members and growing. We're the fastest growing loyalty program in travel. And what we love about Hilton Honors, it allows us to get to know our guests to personalize the experience for them. And it also connects all 22 brands. 'cause what's interesting about our portfolio is each brand serves a travel need, budget and occasion. And you may transverse the brands for your different needs. And so Hilton Honors is that connective tissue, whether you're an infrequent traveler and Hilton Honors is a way to give you the best value for booking through hilton.com directly. So we get to know who you are, things like free wifi and points towards that free stay, a more elite member who can earn additional benefits like automated upgrades that we're delivering so you have even better stay or even that ability to dream for that once in a lifetime experience with our partners at McLaren, uh, F one Racing or Live Nation. Uh, and which you can of course further accelerate with things like our credit cards along the journey. So there's something for everyone, uh, along the Hilton Honors program. And of course, as you said, it's free to join, so you'd be crazy not to get that additional value.

Ilyse: (01:56)

Now how would you say like technology such as like your digital platforms and mobile app also play a role basically in enhancing the guest experience in order to foster like that loyalty and that wonderlust?

Mark: (02:09)

Yeah. The interesting thing about our technology, I would say it, it focuses in two different ways. All in service of that wonderlust. In some ways it's taking the friction outta travel so you can focus on doing what you're there to do, which is explore and find a great stay experience. So some of our innovations around digital key and the ability to choose your room in the app before you even get there, you know exactly what room you're gonna have. The ability to book confirm connecting rooms for parents. There's nothing more stressful than wondering if you're gonna get those rooms together. We actually are able to confirm it at time of booking. The ability to personalize the stay and choose things you want, the ability to message with the front desk, those are all friction removing items of the travel journey. They take away that interaction at the front desk where it's highly transactional.

Mark: (02:48)

That frees you up to then have a human conversation. Where do the locals like to eat? Where's the best place to get that Instagrammable rooftop bar shot, you know, as the sun's coming down. So that's one aspect of our technology is making the guest experience better, uh, and easier. On the other hand, putting the wonderlust back in. So you look at our social media abilities to connect with customers with the things they want to hear most about, to produce content and serve it up, whether it's on the interim TV with our connected room, digital TVs through the app itself or on our websites. The ability to let you personalize choices on Hilton Honors. What benefits you most wanna earn on that trip, or the ability to serve up what interesting experiences you might wanna use your honors points for. And so that Wonder Lust is enabled by both the simplifying the basics and really making it straightforward so we're always reliable and friendly to our guests. And then it also supercharging that, that sort of wonder lust that makes you wanna explore the planet.

Ilyse: (03:37)

How does like data then come into play from your loyalty program to tailor your marketing efforts and create those very unique experiences?

Mark: (03:46)

Data plays a critical role in everything we do for our customers. Whether that is for our less frequent travelers, trying to better get them the right content on initial stay. Like lots of people travel very infrequently and when they do, it's the trip of a lifetime. So we wanna make sure we use contextual clues from the data, where they came from, what they're engaging with to serve up the right hotel, the right products, the right experiences for that trip. Our Hilton honors members, our best customers who we know extremely well, we can be even more personalized. We can serve up the dream destinations they most want to go to. When you're looking at our website, you're seeing the kind of rooms you typically book, you know, 'cause we know you so well giving you add-on abilities. Things that we know you always add onto your trip are even easier at the fingertips.

Mark: (04:24)

So that, that's one aspect of it. Second aspect of it is product innovation. You know, the insights of our customers are telling us where we need to go next. They help us pick the next destinations. You know, we're opening about a hotel a day, they help us build new brands, places where we know our customers are looking for a great product, but maybe we don't have a category. And it becomes our design target, our muse for designing a new brand where we create partnerships, the products that we put in our hotels, the partners we affiliate with to build out that journey. So it's, it's both myopically used to, to give you a personalized experience in the moment itself, but also helping us innovate and build the pipeline of where we go next with who we go next and how we build out the brands.

Damian: (05:00)

Let's talk a bit about the actual marketing campaigns that you've launched. I know that last year you launched the biggest marketing push in six years. Um, it's the Hilton for the Stay platform. The tagline is, it matters where you stay. And that was a campaign, uh, created by TBWA Jet Day and that features Paris Hilton for the very first time, who's seen giving travel tips. Could you talk a little bit about that campaign and why you launched this big campaign last year? Coming

Mark: (05:26)

Outta the pandemic, it would be really easy to get into that sea of sameness, trpi that was out there. You had this desire to reconnect and of course that was an important message, but every company in travel was gonna say the same thing, is saying the same thing and has done so for, you know, decades that empty, you can picture it, that empty beach with a nobody on the beach chair and the clear blue ocean. You can't tell if it's a credit card, a hotel company, an airline, a travel agency, or anything in between. So we knew there was kinda the sea of sameness. There was a tendency to fall in that trope of re connectivity coming outta the pandemic. So we used that moment, uh, during the pandemic to both double down on our customer relationships, donate a million rooms to frontline medical responders, do all the things you do in that moment, but really look ahead to what the future would be.

Mark: (06:04)

And what we realized was we had never had a platform to tell our story consistently. And in a sea of sameness of this kind of eat, pray, love wonderlust of travel and people on goji berries and surfboards, that's not my travel experience most of the time. Why were we glorifying the destination but not the thing we provide in this travel experience? The stay itself. And we thought back to our founder, uh, Conrad Hilton over a hundred years ago said it was our job to fill the earth with the light and warmth, the hospitality. So we had this really unique purpose in the world, very different than everyone else, and yet a sea of sameness marketing, uh, environment. And what we realized was we were going from campaign to campaign, getting sick of it before anybody else even saw it, before it even wore in. We needed a platform, we needed our version of what we're gonna stand for.

Mark: (06:45)

And so as we looked with TBWA, the answer was there all along. It's the stay. It doesn't matter how you travel, it doesn't matter how you live your life. When you come to our hotel and you cross that transom, it just feels different when it's at Hilton and at the heart of every great trip is a great stay. And so the stay became that, that that glue. We then look for stories you could tell on top of it. Uh, it matters where you stay as our first campaign to tell that story. Bringing other influencers and creators in to help tell their authentic story. And who more authentic than the great-granddaughter of the founder of our company, Paris Hilton, who has lived her life literally in our hotels, you know, born and raised in in many of our hotels, traveled the world. So we try to find a lot of different ways in to tell that story all connected back to these 22 brands, how they're all part of Hilton and how ultimately were for this day,

Damian: (07:27)

How significant was it? Was the fact that you launched this across many different channels?

Mark: (07:32)

I mean, fir look, first of all, we wanna be where our customers are. I mean that, that's ultimately drives this conversation. And, and you know, just using linear as an example, you know, your go-to oftentimes as a classically trained marketer is to to be on tv. And of course we need to be there. There's some reach and frequency in the saliency that comes with that. But the reality is increasingly our customers are engaging with brands differently. Uh, and whether that's on social media or their favorite creators, our ability to give up control a bit, which is hard as a brand owner, right? As as a brand leader. And you realize very quickly we actually don't own the brand that customers do. Their perception becomes reality. Their reality becomes the brand. So we better meet them where they are. Podcasting and audio is a huge trend coming particularly accelerated outta the pandemic.

Mark: (08:09)

Uh, social media obviously has been, you know, a rocket ship. Uh, your ability to even functionally serve up search results. SEO is being generated by your ability to be indexable on, you know, YouTube and, and TikTok and other places. So it's, it's a no brainer to be with the customers are. And and what's amazing to me about marketing this great discipline we all get to do is that the fundamentals are the same, right? We're still telling great stories like we're doing for hundreds of years that is just so authentically human, but how we get to do it is rapidly changing it faster than any time in history. And so that's why we went omnichannel during

Damian: (08:40)

The pandemic of, of course people stopped traveling, they had to, and we saw a big surge of travel after that based on that wonderlust, that desire to get out of the house. According to the US Travel Association, total travel spending this year is still going up 4% over last year, year over year. Is that your perception? Is that your understanding travel demand is still very strong?

Mark: (09:01)

Yeah, look, coming, coming outta the crisis, I mean every single year of the last three years has been stronger than the previous. Uh, the reality is there's so much pent up demand and one or lost. I, I think there were some mechanic things like people had record levels of savings. But more importantly we had this golden age of travel going into the pandemic, you know, record levels of middle class all across the world, getting to experience travel for the first time that pause, but it didn't break during the pandemic. There was a very explainable reason, the pandemic to stop doing that. But the demand was still there. The desire was still there. And then it got accelerated when people realized how fragile freedom is, right? That at the end of the day, at any given time, your bucket list comes to a screeching halt. So why is it a bucket list?

Mark: (09:37)

Why is it not a tomorrow list? Why is it not a today list? Let's go out and do it. And then you started to see flexibility of working, right? This idea that I had to be on this calendar schedule where my kids had to get to back to school at a certain time or I needed back in the office, that dynamic changed as well. And so you have record amount of demand, you had a very acute moment where we all realized, my goodness, the thing I love to do could go away at any time. And then life became more flexible. It has led to record levels of travel all across the world. And our hotels are certainly seeing record levels of customers engaging with us.

Ilyse: (10:07)

So Hilton has a diverse portfolio, brands 22 to be precise. How does the marketing strategy then differ across these brands to cater to those like various travel segments?

Mark: (10:19)

It's a great question. Look, each brand has a design target, a ause that we use to design that and, and s sort an archetype that we're really focusing on. We build out that prototype of what it's gonna look like, feel like what brands are gonna appear in the hotel itself, what's the color palette, the look and feel, the logo, all those things that you'd expect us to do. And each brand has to win its category, right? All of 'em have, you know, great competitors that, that are offering options the same price point. So we gotta be differentiated. What's important for us though is that by Hilton or the name Hilton in the brand, which is in all 22 brands, is not a holding company. We're not a, we're not a sort of CPG company that just happens to own these brands and lets 'em all pure play, compete.

Mark: (10:55)

They all have a purposeful role in the journey. And so you may be at a Hilton resort, you know, having a great trip in Aruba and then suddenly you're at your kid's soccer game or you know, football match at a Hampton Inn somewhere in the world or you know, that you need to be in and then a Walter for story for your honeymoon. So you're transversing those brands by Hilton has to mean something by Hilton has to also be the connective tissue. And so it's this fun challenging balance of having 22 brands each with their own personality that commands premiums in their category, while also reminding customers that it matters that these are by Hilton and that you'll get the benefits of Hilton Honors and all the things we innovate and drive. Uh, along the journey.

Ilyse: (11:30)

Hilton recently conducted research into how different generations travel. What were like, the major takeaways from the research, for instance is like one generation travel more than the other.

Mark: (11:41)

You know, some trends you see are about where you are in your lifecycle, right? Obviously the older you get the the more you typically have more disposable income and time just definitionally. When you're younger, you're often in the early stage of your career, maybe your family's younger. So there, there's those dynamics. But we do look at each generation to see what's pervasive and what's what's there. The first was the focus on wellness. People are looking particularly for restorative sleep. Uh, when you looked at I think the lowest end of the, of the spectrum, you know, 55% of Gen Z were saying that's the primary purpose of their trip. All they up to 70% of, uh, boomers and and Gen X were saying the primary purpose of the trip was restorative sleep, right? So we take that responsibility very, very seriously that you need to be rested and relaxed when you come to our hotel.

Mark: (12:20)

Second trend we saw was a seamless digital experience, right? This ability to dream shop book, experience the entire, stay digitally and personalize that journey for you. And so as you look at our innovation agenda, whether that's putting your mind at ease when you book that, you've got a confirmed connecting room, whether that's knowing you can message the front desk, you know, how many times, uh, I know for me I'm in the room and I don't really wanna go back to the front desk. I don't really wanna call and bother them, but I could use more towels or I could use, uh, a beverage after the, the bars maybe close for the night to build a message to the front desk and have 'em respond back. That's pretty powerful. So how do we digitally engage with our customers all generations? You know, it may start with younger travelers, but I'm telling you that the boomers are just the same in terms of wanting the ease and access of a seamless digital booking experience and engaging experience.

Mark: (13:01)

The third is, uh, local experiences. So people go somewhere to do something typically. And so they want our hotels to help 'em connect with the neighborhoods. Where's the offbeat path? Yes, you'll see the big museum or the big, you know, sculpture in town or whatever it may be. But tell me what locals do. Where do they eat? Where do I go around here? And maybe some of that's in the hotel. Maybe we have a great, you know, Michelin star restaurant in the hotel and we can get you a reservation that you can otherwise have. So a third trend we saw was connecting with the local experience and not wanting a cookie cutter trip. Even. You know, you want a reliable hotel. And the last, and I mentioned this earlier, the dynamic of business travel has changed wildly. You know, as I think about my career and a lot of our consumers say the same thing, it was an interruption in your life.

Mark: (13:41)

It was, you know, I had my life at home and then I go do business travel and that's gonna stop my momentum at home. The flexibility we now all have to be virtual for an extra week. It allows us to extend a business trip into a personal trip. The ability to have your kids join you on the weekend. Suddenly now you can use that momentum of a business trip to be the catalyst for bringing your whole family along. 'cause the kids can miss a day of school or take a zoom class instead of having to be back in class. And so that journey has been blended. And so when we look at the trends across all generations, that ability to make it digitally and seamless for them is really important. The ability to be locally connected, that ability to ultimately blend the work in business, travel, uh, business and and leisure at the very top of it, the whole thing. Make sure that when you leave that hotel, you feel rested and restored. Whether that's mind, body or soul.

Damian: (14:22)

And in terms of your marketing calendar, your marketing cadence, you talk about all these many different streams you're looking at, how do you think about the rollout of campaigns?

Mark: (14:31)

A lot of markets have a natural pacing to them. There are, you know, there's golden week in China twice a year, right there, there's things that you lean into because that is a natural catalyst. We, despite all the flexibility I talked about earlier, we still in the US have big summer breaks. That's a big time to send people, you know, on holiday. But also watching customer cues, right? We were able to, a lot of the, the channels we talked about earlier are pool channels, not push channels. So as customers are engaging on video, on demand and they're watching programming about travel destinations or food destinations, let's, let's plug into that moment. Let's activate and trigger. We're watching social media all the time for moments to intercept. You know, we've got examples where there was a home sharing customer whose dad thought they booked a house for four.

Mark: (15:08)

It was a shed that was big enough for one person. They had two dogs and four kids. And it was crazy. We texted them and said, you know, we message 'em on Twitter and TikTok and got ahold of 'em and said, come to our hotel. Uh, we had one the other day who texted her at home sharing host and said, uh, we're at a toilet paper. Where do I find more? And they said, the supermarket. And we said, well that's crazy. Our hotel has come to our hotel, right? So you find these little human moments along the way. And so it takes the pressure outta marketing to some degree 'cause the customers are telling you when they want to hear about you. And we've got ready to go stories. The last example I would give is cultural tent poles. So we've got a long standing partnership with the Grammys.

Mark: (15:43)

Uh, we have a long history music. Uh, John Lennon wrote, imagine in the New York Hilton on a piece of stationary, had the bed in for peace at the Hilton in Amsterdam. Elvis did residencies. Freddie Mercury wrote a crazy little thing called Love in the Bathtub at the Hilton Frankert. Yeah. And so we belong in music, right? So Grammys becomes a big tent pole to tell our story. Formula one with McLaren and Lando Norris, uh, on a McLaren F one racing team. The big moment in the Vegas race will tell that story. So there, there are these moments where you can lean into culture, where the stay is really at the heart of what's possible and that just becomes an authentic way to connect with our customers.

Damian: (16:14)

I wanna ask you about sustainability and eco-conscious travel, which should become increasingly important. Can you talk about how Hilton incorporates those concepts and those initiatives into its marketing efforts to resonate with environmentally conscious travelers? This

Mark: (16:27)

Is very top of mind. We have a huge responsibility. We have over a million and you know, almost a million and a half rooms across the world. And the decisions we make can make or break products for distribution. And so one of the things we did on the product side is we moved to bulk amenities. This idea that you're not gonna have those tiny little bottles that get thrown out every stay. We've got refillable bottles that are safe and secure and sealed and everything else, but the real driver was environmental impact, right? We, we are big enough that our ability to use reusable bottles for water, the ability to use refillable bottles in the, in the bath amenities, that has a huge impact on our supply chain. And so first and foremost is that second we have the ability for companies that are keeping track of their impact.

Mark: (17:02)

Or, you know, even for conscious consumers, we're tracking all the energy uses at our hotels and we're giving recommendations to the hotels how to save energy based on consumer behaviors. We're able to turn down the thermostats when the guests leave the room. We're able to do the things that actually make a difference. On the marketing side, it, it's kind of a funny scenario. And that customers care more than ever, as as they should. They'll tell you in a focus group, they'll pay a premium or they want to hear about they, they really don't. They, they want to have a great trip, but they wanna know underneath that great trip, you're doing the right thing. And so we're not necessarily gonna always put it front and center and say, this is an eco-conscious trip, but we better have the proof points for you that you'll know that the trip you're having that not paying a premium, but paying what you already pay includes Hilton's commitment to doing that.

Mark: (17:41)

So that's really important. And on the marketing side, look, we have to look at sustainable sourcing of things. We have to look at who our supply chain is with what are we buying and who are we buying it from. We built these rooms, these hotel rooms on golf courses, uh, for, you know, big golf activations and they're fun and they're great for three days. We've donated a couple of those to local schools to use as play facilities, right? So are you thinking through the entire journey and then the tricky part to your question coming back to that is just how much do customers really want to hear that story versus just know intuitively and instinctively that your brand stands for it and it's committed and the dollars they're spending are being reinvested in their communities and being reinvested for the environmental impact.

Ilyse: (18:17)

What emerging trends or channels do you see as having the most significant impact on Hilton's marketing strategy in 2024?

Mark: (18:26)

I look back to where we are today versus when I studied marketing, uh, you know, a number of years ago in school, too many years ago in school. And, you know, the channels we're using most today didn't even exist. Literally did not exist. Social media was not even really a thing. Uh, and suddenly here it is our number one channel for a number of ways to connect with customers. And so we will rejoice in the fact that marketing is job is always and will continue to be great storytelling. And that's not going anywhere. That is the heart of what we do. What will change and continue to accelerate for us is how we do that more on social, right? More on streaming and video on demand. You know, as you start to pivot from, I think this year was the first year that consumers officially watch more video not on linear TV than than on linear tv.

Mark: (19:04)

That trend will continue and so we'll need to meet them where they are on streaming and video on demand and YouTube and other platforms. You'll see us show up in TikTok and Instagram and show up on the platforms where we can tell authentic, credible stories. I think the more fun part for us is giving away the keys to the castle a bit, right? So we're gonna be doing more with creators and letting them tell their authentic story about a Hilton's day. And while you might not always have all the brand controls you have, the authenticity outweighs the impact of losing a little bit of your ability to control for every sentence and every, you know, color that they use in in their work. And then lastly, we'll look for ways to activate, um, at big cultural tent pole moments, showing up in an activational way with experiential marketing to let customers truly experience what our brand stands for in the moments that matter most to them, reminding them that it matters where you stay and that Hilton is for this day.

Damian: (19:51)

That's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned.

Ilyse: (19:56)

The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Leyer and Cat fei.

Damian: (20:05)

And remember, you

Mark: (20:07)

Realize very quickly we actually don't own the brand that customers do. Their perception becomes reality. Their reality becomes the brand. So we better meet them where they are.

Damian: (20:15)

I'm Damien and

Ilyse: (20:16)

I'm Aise

Damian: (20:17)

And we'll see you next time.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The chief marketing officer of the free ad-supported television (FAST) platform breaks down the maturation of the free-streaming space, Tubi going for an entire brand refresh, and growing the brand past its “teenage-acne phase.”

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian Fowler: (00:01)

I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse Liffreing: (00:02)

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. 

Damian Fowler: (00:03)

And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Ilyse Liffreing: (00:10)

This week we sit down to talk with Nicole Parlapiano, the chief marketing officer of Tubi.

Damian Fowler: (00:16)

Nicole became the CMO in 2022, having honed her marketing experience at a number of high profile companies, including VaynerMedia, WeWork and Tinder. In 2023, she was named one of ad age's leading Women of the Year.

Ilyse Liffreing: (00:31)

Tubi had a breakout year in 2023, it surpassed 74 million monthly active users. 10 million of those came between February and September when the brand had its viral Super Bowl campaign.

Nicole Parlapiano: (00:47)

I mean it was a big moment. I think it's one of those lightning in a bottle I think when it really hit for me is when I saw a friend of mine who has kids in college sent me a TikTok and they were imitating the kids what it was like when the Tubi commercial came on. And I thought like, what a privilege and what an amazing impact that people are creating reaction videos because of what we did. And you know, if it's with the college kids on TikTok, then it's gonna go. It really showed how much like impact we had in that moment and for you know, a more of a challenger streaming brand. It was a big moment for the company and for the brand.

Damian Fowler: (01:28)

It certainly raises the bar right for, for next Super Bowl. For you , do you, are you, are you thinking oh we've gotta build on this and and do something even more?

Nicole Parlapiano: (01:37)

I literally basked in it for three days and then I was like Ooh, like this is definitely a hard thing to follow. And I think you can't put pressure on things like that. We are just obsessed with our viewers and obsessed with like surprising them. I think that happens in small ways every day on social. We're very accessible to our fans and our viewers. We respond to everybody. So really scaling that mass intimacy, you know, sending our biggest fans Tubi care packages and special things that they like. The bigger campaigns we've done since then are really similarly just looking at the moment we're in, really being considerate about who the audience is, who is the target audience and like how can we break through creatively in that moment on a small scale, on a big scale. Instead of letting the content lead us, we really let the viewer and the audience lead where we go. That takes the pressure off of what, what are we doing? What do we need to do? They tell us what we need to do if we're listening

Damian Fowler: (02:39)

So are your marketing campaigns sort of reacting to Yes. What your viewers are watching? Yes. Is that, could you talk a little bit about how you stay like in the moment stay relevant?

Nicole Parlapiano: (02:48)

Listen, like for things like Super Bowl you have to plan many months ahead, but we actually had a very condensed time. So even on our bigger campaigns we turned things within four months pretty quick. When we do Super Bowl in the future, I think that part of the magic is cutting it really close. I mean culture's just moving so fast at this point that if you make something 10 months out, like is it still gonna hit the right way? Like things are moving too fast. I wouldn't say it's completely reactionary, but I do over-Index on giving my team enough time to pay attention and listen versus follow a marketing calendar. I think if we're following a marketing calendar and we're so focused on the calendar dictating our lives, you're going to miss the things that are going on in culture and then you don't have the bandwidth to move when something happens. That's

Damian Fowler: (03:36)

Such invaluable insight.

Ilyse Liffreing: (03:38)

You know, speaking of trends, especially in the streaming space, Tubi is becoming somewhat of like a poster child for Fast channels or rather free ad supported TV platforms, especially after breaking into Nielsen's platform rankings in March. What do you think is driving the next evolution of growth for Fast?

Nicole Parlapiano: (03:56)

I think people are starting to get it with Fast. Probably two years ago when Fast there was a little bit of my expectation is that it's like an SVOD think now people are starting to realize that Fast just really plays a different role in your life and that it is more of a place to come when you're not sure what you wanna watch and you're looking to watch based on a mood or an occasion or a feeling. The growth in viewership is coming from just better consumer understanding of the role that fast plays and it's not necessarily like a replacement to SVOD, it's extremely complimentary. The large collection of titles we have really leans into a trend you’re seeing in media where there's just overall fragmentation. There's different pockets of the internet of people that are passionate about completely obscure things. And so us having a huge content library allows them to find those things and find them with depth.

Nicole Parlapiano: (04:53)

We can just tailor to many taste moods and communities that aren't necessarily reflected in mainstream Hollywood at scale. So not just a couple of titles that cater to that audience. We have 50 to a hundred. The second thing that's happening coming out of like just the golden era of TV and streaming and all this content that just came at everyone, it's a lot and there's a lot going on in the world globally and I think there's a lot of mental stress and there is just a trend that you see of people wanting to go back to watch TV from a different time. The nostalgia viewing is hitting an an important time in society right now. Ultimately over time I think we're gonna see a behavioral shift where people know to come to apps like to be first if they don't know what they wanna watch, we're your everyday constant as you cycle in and out of whatever subscription service you're on based on whatever big title they have.

Ilyse Liffreing: (05:49)

You noted to adage that we need to get back to a place of building brands. What are some of the ways you are continuing to build and articulate Tubi’s brand identity in 2024?

Nicole Parlapiano: (06:02)

I mean brands are fluid things. I think as a brand at Tubi, we are probably a teenager with like some acne. Like we're figuring out who we are, we don't know who we are yet, you know, we haven't taken the brand that we've shown the last year and really visually and verbally landed that across our entire product and customer and viewer experience. So we are looking at an entire brand refresh. It'll just more reflect I, I would say the exciting inviting and mischievous side of Tubi just to drive a little bit more consistency there across our surfaces. And then instead of campaigns and you know, the everyday social, I do think a lot about something I'll call brand acts, the behavioral moments that reinforce who we are that aren't in the format of a campaign. So I wanna do more of that next year. And I think the one thing I am really excited about is most of my job is like thinking about Tubi every day, but because we're ad supported, I love the breaks that I get to think about problems for our advertiser partners and how their brand can better show up and come to life within the Tubi platform.

Nicole Parlapiano: (07:12)

Integrating into different shows we might have or experiences.

Damian Fowler: (07:16)

I liked your word mischievous because it seems to characterize a lot of the work. Yeah. And speaking of that, you know you launched a new tagline, find Your Rabbit Hole, and that was in tandem with a cleverly associated rabbit AI product. I'm doing air quotes, . Could you walk us through this campaign, you know, and how you thread the needle between brand building and that product technology?

Nicole Parlapiano: (07:38)

I think with the product team, I mean we are just thick as thieves and we are constantly both thinking about what is a true about the viewer experience on Tubi and B, what else can we do to solve their problems? And so we had already briefed the campaign and then when we were going through an exercise together on how we would use OpenAI technology, the first thing we thought about was like helping people find these specific rabbit holes right now. Like the only algorithmic ways that other streamers are telling you what to watch is based on past behavior, but you don't really have a great way to search for something in a categorical semantic search way. So the campaign was sort of going and then when we landed that this was a problem we were gonna solve, I'm like wow, these beautifully go together because you can actually, through the rabbit AI search, you can find rom-coms with hot lifeguards in two seconds. Or you know, shows about, you know, drug cartels on the pickup. You can dictate that behavior with rabbit ai. So when we were launching, you always kind of run into that, well we need to launch the campaign by this time. And they're like, the feature's gonna be available at this time. And you know, sometimes you're not able to make those two things happen all at once all in the same day, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't do them. So we launched the campaign and then a few weeks later Rabbit AIGA AI came out.

Damian Fowler: (09:03)

I mean I read recently some data about the amount of time people spend searching shows to watch Ugh a lot. You know, like

Nicole Parlapiano: (09:10)

It's insane.

Ilyse Liffreing: (09:11)

I know. Firsthand .

Nicole Parlapiano: (09:12)

Yeah, right. And how many give up

Damian Fowler: (09:14)

And you, yeah, so this idea that you can actually hone in on exactly what you want, there's a sort of almost like a feeling. I mean I'm often look for British crime dramas for instance. Yeah. Or a period one like an Agatha Christie. Yeah. But it's very hard to do that in, you know, with a lot of search engines they don't always deliver those results. 

Nicole Parlapiano: (09:31)

No. And the categories are like you like reality tv. I think I can speak for all reality TV viewers. We are not one and the same. Like we are different cult fandoms and we like different things and I don't think anyone's really tapped into, you're just, we're kind of like blanket lump, summing all of these genres. And I think the data that we're getting from the search queries is very interesting because it uncovers some of these sub genres that we maybe wouldn't have thought to classify.

Damian Fowler: (09:57)

Speaking of innovation is anything that's really caught your eye in the present moment.

Nicole Parlapiano: (10:03)

So I can say one that's caught my wallet, which is all the social shopping products and um, I am currently waiting for my era style Josh Allen t-shirt to come from TikTok shop because they must have known that I'm a Buffalo Bes fan and a Taylor fan and they knew not to put Travis Kelce in front of me. They knew to put Josh Allen in front of me and I clicked to buy so fast. It was scary. Lo-fi creative is always on my mind and I don't mean just UGC creative, I think what you see with the younger generation in Gen Z, their creative tastes are so wildly different. I don't know if you guys follow the drumstick account on TikTok like the ice cream cone, but

Ilyse Liffreing: (10:46)

No, but I want to now

Nicole Parlapiano: (10:48)

You have to. Whoever's running this account is amazing. It's totally that generation's creative style. They've integrated the product but in a very funny way. So I watch that and I'm paying very close attention to where that's going because not in the near term but in the long term traditional ads as we know them will become less relevant and less prominent. They'll always play a role in things like Super Bowl, but I think for the younger generation they don't really wanna interact in that way. Thinking about when we transition that lo-fi creative to other mediums and have it work in a way is is something I think I spend a lot of time on

Ilyse Liffreing: (11:29)

Now, you've publicly mentioned your passion for coaching and developing young talent. What advice do you have for marketers, especially maybe young marketers looking for that level up?

Nicole Parlapiano: (11:41)

Well this could be a whole podcast. I was writing like so many things. I think be patient is one. I mean this industry is hard. It's not one that I started in, it's one that that I had a hard time breaking into. Whether you're trying to get a job at an agency and you don't have agency experience, you might have media agency experience, but none of the creative agencies want you 'cause you're not creative enough. Then when you're on the agency side, getting someone on the client side to hire you, there's so many different jumps. It's important to stay patient, it's important to stay hungry, it's important to stay humble. The industry is always moving and things might not work out one place. You know, you have to just keep it moving. So many people are not willing to take a step back to take a step forward and they stay stuck. Be very meticulous about what you're building for in your career and if you wanna take a step forward, you need to be prepared to take a step back sometimes, especially early in your career and say you're at an agency and you've been there for five years and you feel stuck, well guess what? You're not gonna get the same title on the client side. You're gonna have to take a step back to take a step forward, but you have to be willing to do that. Otherwise you're just gonna stay pretty stagnant.

Ilyse Liffreing: (12:49)

That's good advice. Yeah. Is there a marketer that you turn to for inspiration?

Nicole Parlapiano: (12:55)

I'm obsessed with Liquid Death and here's why. And I know everyone is, but here's why I'm obsessed with them. They came into a category much like us, where there's like the established players, the rules are there, you need to have X, Y, and Z celebrity endorsements. They came into an industry and they just completely did it their way and they built a cult following from everything that they do to like how they showed up at Super Bowl two years ago. No celebrities, just, just totally a funny, enjoyable ad to in social. When people complain about them the way they gracefully and elegantly address it and respond, I mean everything they do feels endemic to that brand. Feels right and they've had tremendous growth. So I, I haven't had a moment where I've seen something come from them and it didn't feel like right, but like so different and so interesting. They're one I watch a lot.

Damian Fowler: (13:48)

Yeah, they're amazing. We did a podcast with one of their lead marketers early on and we were laughing out loud at some of the things that they were doing and talk about mischievous

Ilyse Liffreing: (13:57)

And viral.

Damian Fowler: (13:58)

I just wanted to say, you mentioned something about funny and funny ads and like we're seeing a lot a return of these kind of mischievous or funny ads. Is that your experience, your observation that we're gonna get back to that a little bit more.

Nicole Parlapiano: (14:09)

I mean, don't you think we should like isn't our job as advertisers to make people like, you know, yes, you can make people cry if that's the thing, but like make people feel something like, I don't know, our ads that we have out now, they're just fun and they're just funny and they're enjoyable to watch. You know, when we're reviewing creative and you're thinking, God, it's only five seconds in, it should feel quick, it should be entertaining. Our job ultimately at the end of the day is to entertain and yes, land a message. But you can't land a message if you're not entertaining. Just not taking ourselves too seriously in these very heavy and in serious times is I think what people need and just being sensitive to that.

Damian Fowler: (14:54)

And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned

Ilyse Liffreing: (14:59)

And if you love this podcast, be sure to subscribe and leave a review while you're at it. Check out our other show, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's happening in the world of digital media. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.

Damian Fowler: (15:19)

And remember,

Nicole Parlapiano: (15:20)

Be very meticulous about what you're building for in your career and if you wanna take a step forward, you need to be prepared to take a step back sometimes, especially early in your career.

Damian Fowler: (15:29)

I'm Damian

Ilyse Liffreing: (15:30)

And I'm Ilyse

Damian Fowler: (15:31)

And we'll see you next time.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Chief Marketing Officer Kory Marchisotto joins The Current Podcast to discuss why the makeup brand e.l.f. Beauty decided to air a Super Bowl ad, and why other female-driven brands are missing out.

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.

[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing

[00:00:02] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Kory Marchisotto, the Chief Marketing Officer at e.l.f. Beauty.

[00:00:11] Damian: Now maybe I'm the only one here, but I didn't realize that the word elf stands for eyes, lips and face. The brand was launched in 2004 and it filled a gap in the marketplace for inexpensive, high quality cosmetics. 

[00:00:26] Ilyse: Twenty years later, and e.l.f. has become a powerhouse brand. It went public in 2016, and since then has seen spectacular growth. Its sales soared last year, driven by retail channels and some seriously buzzy marketing.

[00:00:42] Damian: We started by asking Kory, what gives the e.l.f. brand the edge in this very competitive marketplace?

[00:00:50] Damian: So Kory, how do you think of the e.l.f. brand in this very competitive field? And what's your competitive advantage as it were?

[00:00:58] Kory: I like to think about [00:01:00] e.l.f. as a brand of the people, by the people, for the people, created with the people. And for that to be true, we need to be totally in tune and have our finger on the pulse of what the people want, what they like, what are their unique needs, wants, and desires. So we really think about ourselves as stewards of our community's vision of e.l.f.

[00:01:22] And that's a very unique place to be standing. How much value and emphasis we put on that community. They're, citizens of the brand. They have a vote, they have a seat at every table, and that is by definition, a very unique competitive advantage.,

[00:01:41] Damian: speaking of competitive advantage, you've had tremendous, stupendous growth over the last five years. And I'm just curious to hear from you, what is supercharging this?

[00:01:51] Kory: Over the last five years, we've grown our stock price. 1, 567 percent to be exact, [00:02:00] making us the number one performing stock on the New York Stock Exchange out of 1, 600. and 15 companies. So I think that definitely deserves your tremendous stupendous.

[00:02:11] Damian: Okay, that's good. That's good. And what do you think, if you had to put your finger on two or three factors, what is it that is driving this upward, curve, as it were?

[00:02:24] Kory: There's quite a few things and in the essence of time, I'll distill it to the three I think are most important. But for your audience, I think it's really important to go back to the beginning to understand the ethos of the brand, because it's the ethos that powers the purpose that powers the people, That power the performance.

[00:02:42] So if you go back to the origins of elf in 2004, let's remember at this time Facebook hadn't launched yet. iPhones don't exist. Imagine this. Can you wrap your heads around that?

[00:02:56] And So so we're back in the dark ages folks [00:03:00] and our founders dreamt up the impossible and made it happen. So they had this crazy idea that they could create premium quality cosmetics And sell it for one dollar over the internet.

[00:03:13] So everybody told them, first and foremost, you cannot create premium quality cosmetics and sell it for a dollar. That's impossible. Second, you certainly can't sell color cosmetics over the internet. And third, even if you figure it out how to do number one and number two, you'll never make this a profitable business.

[00:03:30] And aren't we glad that our founders disrupted from day one. So they have this renegade spirit, this bias for action, this quest to do the impossible.

[00:03:42] One is our core value proposition, our very unique ability to deliver premium quality cosmetics at a jaw dropping value. The second is our powerhouse innovation,

[00:03:55] And then the third is our disruptive marketing engine.

[00:03:58] So our core value, [00:04:00] proposition, our powerhouse innovation and our disruptive marketing engine are definitely the drivers of our last 20 consecutive quarters of growth.

[00:04:08]

[00:04:09] Ilyse: I'm curious about your out of box marketing because you guys are known for that. You really are. how did you cultivate this approach when you came on board as cMO?

[00:04:20] Kory: at that time, there were some major shifts happening in the company.

[00:04:25] So, Every company goes through various stages of growth, especially in a 20 year history. And the stage that I had walked into was a transformation from investing in retail. into marketing. marketing and digital, so when I started the company in at the onset of 2019, we were investing 7%. Of net sales into marketing and digital. Fast forward. We are now up to 24%. So you can see that there's a big investment in the power of the brand and building brand equity and building Brand [00:05:00] evangelism and all the things that we've been able to do over time.

[00:05:02] So we see that as an enormous responsibility to make their time worthwhile.

[00:05:08] It's interesting you call yourself an entertainment company. Or you see yourself as an entertainment company. And I would assume like The new digital channels that you play in have really helped you become such a company in this day and age, especially if you're selling something to consumers online, in stores, etc. To extent would you say digital channels have really opened up these possibilities to you? And I guess, channels do you like playing in the best?

[00:05:45] We love all our channels equally, right? It's like our children. We love all our products. We love all our channels. I see all of our channels as learning opportunities. And the most important thing to remember is that they're all there to teach you [00:06:00] something different. And even if it's the same person who's coming to see you on Instagram and TikTok, they're actually on each platform for a different reason. So it's critical that we understand what is unique about the platform itself and what is unique about the reason that the person is coming to the platform. And that gives us a unique set of experiences and learnings.

[00:06:26] So I think you see the pattern here that every time. We enter into a new platform. We go in with a beginner's mindset. We ask ourselves, how do we create something that is going to add a tremendous amount of value to the people that are here on the platform at the intersection of what it is that we do great. So it's really always this trifecta of beauty, culture, and entertainment. And we're bringing the best of all three to the communities on each platform.

[00:06:56] Obviously you're known for your social media strategy, like [00:07:00] with this partnership with Liquid Death, but this year you also ran a national Super Bowl ad for the first time, which is always exciting for the first time for a brand. this one featured Judge Judy and cast members from Suits. So a little nostalgic on one hand. Can you talk about the strategy here? You obviously went into the humor category. What was the thinking behind this Super Bowl ad?

[00:07:27] So there's this big conversation in the beauty space about dupes and your audience can't see me, but I'm making quotes because that has really ignited this entire conversation about people talking to each other about judging for all sorts of things in, the beauty space. So we started to see this conversation really take off, especially around price and people judging each other for, paying for overpriced makeup. So then we looked at what was happening in culture and [00:08:00] entertainment, and there was courtroom drama taking off everywhere.

[00:08:03] Suits had its best year of viewership. Judge Judy was the number one program on Amazon Freeview. You had all things happening with Ronald from jury duty. so it was just this incredible cultural moment of all this courtroom drama coming together. And we said, well, that's pretty outstanding.

[00:08:23] There's a lot of drama about judging and makeup injustice happening in the beauty world, and there's this incredible moment of courtroom drama happening over here. So once we tuned into both of those things, then we said, Okay, now let's put our head in the

[00:08:38] stars and dream what could be possible. And only e.l.f. could dream big enough to say, what if we actually got the cast of suits? What if we actually went and got them? Judge Judy, what if we actually went and got Ronald and put him in our jury box? And these are really big lofty dreams, and that's how we love to operate at e.l.f.

[00:08:59] [00:09:00] So that was our first national spot, which we decided to do after we tested the year prior with a regional spot. And when we had done the regional spot the year prior, it had broken every record we could have ever imagined, which was the signal that we needed to tell us to lean in even harder.

[00:09:23] Ilyse: And if I'm not mistaken, that one also had some star power in it with Jennifer Coolidge. One of my favorite actresses

[00:09:31] Kory: major stars of that campaign, Jennifer Coolidge and Power Grip Primer.

[00:09:36] Ilyse: Yeah. What did you guys learn from the regional ad, specifically, if there are any lessons?

[00:09:41] Kory: So we had never done a TV spot before at that time. So to your earlier point, we grew up in digital or a digital native brand. When we started to invest larger dollars into marketing and digital, we expanded all of our digital platforms. [00:10:00] First, we learned all about creating short form, medium form and even longer form entertainment content. So we had been building that muscle over time, and we also saw that our awareness numbers were rising and we wanted to fuel the awareness and open the aperture to more audiences and expose more people to the magic of Elf. we decided to take Jennifer Coolidge and Power Grip Primer to the biggest stage that there is, which is the big game. And our hypothesis was on that particular stage, women were being underserved. you have at that time 115 million people viewing the big game, of which 75 percent said the number one thing that they like about Super Bowl Sunday is The commercials. So you have a highly engaged audience and 50% of that audience is women.

[00:10:58] So by every metric, it [00:11:00] was massively successful.

[00:11:02] Ilyse: That is very interesting. Especially because this year, women's sports, women's live sports, are definitely, on the upswing. And there's, it seems to be, like, more brands want to partake, more, networks want to show women's sports, more streaming, platforms want to show women's live sports.

[00:11:24] curious. If you intend to partake in any like women's specific sports in the future and how might that impact the e. l. f. brand?

[00:11:37] Kory: We're very excited about women in sports, and we've been in the arena for quite some time, and we believe very strongly in supporting This initiative and empowering young women to not only engage in sports, but also stay in sports. I don't remember the exact stat off the top of my head, but there is a large amount [00:12:00] of young girls who drop out of sports at a very young age, and we really want to work together with powerful.

[00:12:07] Women in sports to change that. So we've actually been working together with Billie Jean King, who is an extraordinary legend not only in tennis, but in multiple sports as well as in women's equality at large and Working together with her has been incredible. We're supporting her women's National Hockey League And when you start to get around all of these young women and watch their, watch them unleash their incredible talents and support them along their journey, it's real fuel to want to go further and deeper.

[00:12:45] We're also, we also worked last year with Catherine Legg, who's a female driver at the Indy 500. So there's a lot of bold. Disruptors like a Billie Jean King, like a Katherine Legg, that [00:13:00] we will continue to work with to empower women in sports.

[00:13:05] Damian: One thing you said earlier that was really interesting to me is that you really listen in to your community. And, when you launch initiatives like this, is this, do you see this as part of a sort of feedback loop that you tap into? And I'd just be curious to hear more about that audience first approach and that whole concept of listening.

[00:13:24] Because I haven't heard that from every marketer.

[00:13:27] Kory: I think it's fundamental and it's a service approach. And as I said earlier, when you're a brand of the people, by the people, for the people, you have to create with the people. This is their brand, not mine. I'm here to steward it for them. I'm here to shape it with them. So the only way I can do that is by listening very intently.

[00:13:47] And a lot of people in my position rely on reports. I've seen reports. I don't want to have a relationship with reports. I want to have a relationship with people. So as the CMO of the [00:14:00] company, I'm probably more connected to our audience than anybody in our company. And the reason I do that is to make sure that they're with me in every room I go into, whether it's the boardroom, or the C suite, or every meeting, I am there as a representative of them.

[00:14:17] And again, I take this back to, they're citizens and I'm their representative. And I'm here to legislate on their behalf.

[00:14:26] Another thing that I do is I go on TikTok lives And have direct conversations with them, especially if something surfaces. So for example, it was surfaced to us that our community was very unhappy that we had taken one of our limited edition collections off the market. And that was called Jelly Pop.

[00:14:45] It was a watermelon infused. And I was really curious about that because we had replaced it with Power Grip Primer and the reason we did that is very similar formula. The reason we did that is because we heard a lot of people say that they [00:15:00] didn't want to have fragrance in it. So we're like, okay, well, why don't we make it unscented? They love the sticky texture. We'll create this thing called Power Grip Primer and, it was wildly successful. But we still had this undercurrent. No matter what post we did, people were like, bring back Jelly Peps. Primer and I'm like, I need to understand more about this. So I went on a TikTok live to understand what is it that you don't have that you want and We really got under the hood to understand that it was an obsession with the texture, the format, and the scent.

[00:15:32] They wanted it pink and they wanted it watermelon. So, so once I found that out, I said, I, really appreciate you. Thank you for. Sharing your vote with me on what it is that you want next. Well, now you're going to need to come on a journey with me because it takes a lot to move a product through an organization.

[00:15:50] So I took our head of innovation and he was the next tech talk live, then our head of operations, our CFO. And then if they were convincing enough, which they were, they finally [00:16:00] got to the CEO. So our CEO came on tech talk live for our community to convince him to bring back jelly pop primer. And he folded in like 60 seconds. he saw the exclamation points, the capital letters, the, the nonstop thread, there was like 5, 000 people and they were all like, bring back jelly beans. It's okay. I'll bring it back over into 60 seconds. Done. So I think you get, I tell you that story because I think it gives you a unique flavor of how committed our organization is to the people we serve.

[00:16:31] Our CFO and our CEO are bringing our community to those Conversations because they're directly involved with them and they have their own stories to tell about the magic of that community.

[00:16:42] So, they're basically recognizing that they are a citizen of our brand.

[00:16:49] Damian: I love the, the way you talk about citizens of, the brand. it's a really interesting way of looking at the fan base, the customer base, or however you [00:17:00] would, [00:17:00] describe it

[00:17:00] Kory: Yeah, I don't love the word customer or consumer, because it signifies that you're only here to buy from us versus being a part of the thing that we're doing. And what I love about Citizen Is it showcases that you have a vote, that you have a vested interest and a deciding power in the thing that we're actually doing.

[00:17:23] And I don't find any other word that captures that in the same way. So they are citizens of e.l.f. and they do have a voice and they do contribute to everything that we do. 

[00:17:38] Ilyse: about that citizen journey, there is quite a relationship between e commerce and in store experiences for you guys. How do. you leverage? your online audiences and then follow those citizens from app to store.

[00:17:56] Kory: What's really important for us is to recognize that it all [00:18:00] needs to be fluid. So if you think about all of the possible touch points, some people are on 100 touch points, some people are on 10, some people are on 1. The important part is for them, it's all one world. They're seamlessly going from Our Roblox game to the floor of Target to our app to our website.

[00:18:25] So what we need to do is make sure that we have an organization that [00:18:29] reflects that level of fluidity and that we don't have any friction points between those zones. So everything that we do has to be fluidly integrated across every touch point. So if we think about corpse paint, for example, we light up everything 360.

[00:18:47] It's going to go. Live on our website live on our app. We're going to make sure that there are, uh, you know, social across all of our social channels. We're going to light up our live stream and we had rooms [00:19:00] in Roblox. So we basically see this as every time we turn on an activation, we turn on every switch across our entire ecosystem so that wherever you're interacting with our brand, you're finding a consistent thread throughout.

[00:19:18] what are your priorities for 2024? What would you say is your guiding principle?

[00:19:24] We go where our community takes us. And if I just take you on a quick journey of that, we didn't end up on TikTok in 2019 by accident. There was a hashtag of cosmetics that we didn't create that we had nothing to do with that three and a half million people were showing up to every day, which was basically them calling for us to be there.

[00:19:46] We're hearing a lot that they want more from us in that regard. We actually did a pep talk series where it was all about these mini confidence boosts that we could bring to women. So [00:20:00] what's most important for me is not me making a decision or our teams making a decision about where we should go next, but rather going where our community guides us.

[00:20:11] So you're going to continue to see us. On that path?

[00:20:15] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:20:20] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

[00:20:26] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.

[00:20:28] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse.

[00:20:30] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:20:35] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

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Activision Blizzard's Jonathan Stringfield on how advertisers can attach themselves to gamers' loyalty to specific franchises and how to find community in gaming. 

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

DAMIAN (00:01):

I'm Damian Fowler.

ILYSE (00:02):

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. 

DAMIAN (00:04):

And welcome to this edition of The Current podcast.

ILYSE (00:10):

This week we're delighted to talk with Jonathan Stringfield, VP of Global Business Research and Marketing at Activision Blizzard.

DAMIAN (00:17):

Activision Blizzard made headlines in October. Microsoft closed its $69 billion deal with the gaming company, the home of legendary games like Candy Crush, Call of Duty and World of Warcraft. Activision says it's ready for the next chapter as part of the Microsoft family,

ILYSE (00:34):

As well as being a VP at the company. Jonathan is also the author of Get In the Game, an Essential Guide for Marketers and Execs who want to integrate their brands with Modern Games and eSports published in 2022 by Wiley.

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (00:53):

Sure. Well, so first of all, thanks for having me. I'm super excited to, uh, to be here today. Um, and, and again, I think the book is realistically a reflection of where we are in the greater marketing agency as it pertains to gaming, that I think there's been a lot of opportunities that have existed over the years. Um, certainly the marketplace has matured in recent years, but overall the level of investment in gaming is considerably lower relative to I think the amount that the fans are investing in it, the extent to which that this is consuming a greater amount of their time. And that on the whole, there's a lot of questions from marketers in terms of what's the right way to integrate and realistically no good resources in terms of how do we start to get folks to understand what is ostensibly not just a a form of entertainment. It's a new way in which people are increasingly interacting with media more generally. So the book was in some ways kind of a starter, what I was hoping to be a bit of a foundational educational piece to really kind of advance this conversation forward in the broader marketing industry. Yeah,

DAMIAN (01:51):

There's definitely intense interest and I've noticed even in the last 12 months it's picked up incredibly. Can you give us a sense of the scale now of gaming worldwide to sort of establish that, that context? Yeah,

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (02:05):

For sure. I mean, you know, I think the latest estimates are the total gaming population will be about three and a half billion by next year. So somewhere between a third and a half of the population on the planet plays games, right. Substantial. Right. So, you know, I, I think that alone is, you know, kind of one of these light bulb moments for folks that, you know, when we think about what it means to play a video game more generally, again, you kind of get that classic view of like someone with a controller or maybe at a PC or what have you. But realistically, one of the biggest segments of gaming fans out there is, is mobile. Right? And since everyone has, or virtually everyone has a mobile device globally that can handle games like Candy Crush, what we found is that the surface area for people that enjoy games is just that much bigger. So, you know, when you look at the stats and see that, you know, conceivably the revenue that's attributed to gaming dwarfs things like film, movies, music, or what have you, it's because of the scale of the industry first and foremost in terms of how many fans have proliferated certainly in the last decade or so.

DAMIAN (03:06):

Yeah. What's interesting is people have certain preconceptions about gamers and gamers have changed over the years. I remember when I was coming about, I had an Atari 800 and I used to play Frogger. I don't really consider myself a gamer anymore, but could you give us a little insight in terms of who are gamers?

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (03:25):

Yeah, so even the term gamer is kind of interesting in so far that it already kind of attributes a label that then kind of sparks preconceptions that are mine, right? So, you know, if we take a step back, we don't talk about, you know, folks that are watching movies as cinephiles per se, right? Or folks that are really into music with, with very specific terms. So in that world, even just thinking about gamers themselves, that kind of just entails someone who has or really kind of pulls some degree of identity from it, which is certainly the case. There are folks that like readily identify as a gamer and are, you know, very into it. And one of these, you know, spend multiple, multiple hours and lots of investment in the ecosystem and so on and so forth. But then there's just as many, actually many more folks who don't necessarily consider themselves a gamer, but they definitely play video games, right?

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (04:11):

And a lot of it is on mobile phones, but then some of these same folks do on consoles and PC and what have you. And one of the biggest trends we'll continue to see in the gaming industry broadly is that we're really looking at a world where we're trying to make sure that the experiences that we provide can be accessed on virtually any device. So I think by that metric, what we'll find is that the, the, the definition is gonna continue to expand. So going back to your question, like who is a gamer? I mean, it, again, it's it's a little bit hokey and we say it a lot, but it is kind of everyone to a certain degree. And it's just, it is the different ways that folks are entering what is an ecosystem, not just an individual channel that kind of differentiates them.

DAMIAN (04:50):

Yeah. So it's not a sort of niche thing and the, the definition of gamer has here, the two maybe been a sort of niche thing, but what you're saying is it's definitely not that.

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (04:59):

And, and, and I think there's no better example than what's been happening in recent years, right? So that even that concept of a gamer kind of implies that this is a different group of folks. This is an abnormal group of people that is doing something other folks do, don't or don't do. And again, that's just not the case. Right? And again, look at things like the extent to which you see gaming IP in major movies, television shows. I think there's some, last I counted, 40 or 50 individual projects for TV or movie being developed from game IP right now.

ILYSE (05:29):

Wow, that's a lot. .

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (05:30):

It's a lot. And, and the, the other thing, and, and again, it's good now. So like there, there is this world where, you know, if you think about, you know, how games have been portrayed in movies like maybe in the early nineties, like wasn't that great, right? Mm-hmm. and like kind of left a bad taste in people's mouth, not just folks that weren't fans of the games, but candidly even the fans of the game. And that's really changed in recent years. And I think, again, we could talk a lot about why that happened and partially it's, you know, Hollywood, I think taking the stories in these games more seriously, but then also understanding that there's a big established fandom here. And if they want to bring this experience to a different screen, they need to resonate with that. So what that means in general is that it's just becoming not something that's an offset of culture. It's popular culture. And I think what we'll see in coming years is that already it's the case with even generations as young. And I'm definitely throwing up air quotes 'cause I'm in this generation as millennials, they spend most of their time gaming relative to other forms of media. And I don't think the marketing world has caught up with that fact.

ILYSE (06:28):

Do you happen to have a favorite gaming movie?

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (06:30):

My favorite gaming movie? Oh, I mean, you know, honestly, at this point I do have a lot of heart for the old ones from the nineties just because, you know, that's what I grew up with was were those, and, and for me it was just so cool to kind of see them even be represented on screen like that. So like the original Super Mario Brothers movie and Street Fighter and things like that, like all really cool projects. I think the one that really kind of spoke to me personally, um, and again, it feels like this is gonna be like a bit of a pitch for the company, and I promise you it isn't is actually the Warcraft movie Uhhuh

ILYSE (07:01):

.

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (07:01):

Because at that point, by the time that movie came out, I'd been playing Warcraft for a decade at least. And again, I'm not alone that that's a very common behavior you've seen. So again, think about Super Mario Brothers, any of these other movies, you know, folks are coming to this with the intention and with the knowledge that they've been engrossed in those worlds for 10 years, 20 years, some times, 30 years, they're gonna have expectations in terms of how that's portrayed in that media. Yeah.

ILYSE (07:25):

And you know, you mentioned it's very much like a family kind of affair. Um, one of the most interesting insights we saw on your site is that actually like one in five gamers are actually made up of women with children. So would you say mom's got game ?

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (07:40):

Mom definitely has game and, and parents have game and, and you know, it it's, it, there's, I think again, with that whole concept of how gaming is increasingly encroaching upon modern culture is that you now have folks that grew up gaming, and again, I'm, I'm definitely in this vanguard who have basically been playing video games their entire life, have kept up with the hobby throughout, and now we have homes and mortgages and kids and a bad hip and things like that. Like we are the principal shoppers in the household, and then we share that with our children, right? Like, and again, it's like anything else you think about how like, sports team, fandom, proliferates, that doesn't happen in abstract. Like kids don't come outta the womb being, you know, rooting for the Cubs or something like that. It's because of a shared connection with their, with their family. Same thing here. So both of my kids, they are big time gaming fans. And again, probably a lot of my influence on that, but even now I have one that's off to college and we can still hang out, right? Because we can hang out in virtual worlds. And again, I think there's something powerful about that.

ILYSE (08:37):

Activision has some of the world's most iconic, most played games, candy Crush, call of Duty, world of Warcraft. I know myself, I'm a big Candy Crush player. I play it every day on the subway. , can you give us a sense of how and why these games prove so compelling?

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (08:54):

I mean, I I, I think there, there's a couple things we could look at, right? So on the one hand, almost all of the, like the games you just mentioned have been around for decades, right? So just as it stands now they're popular because there's been something about them that has kind of hooked someone into that. And again, whether it's like really novel and interesting mechanics, like Candy Crush, whether it's something like social connectivity from a game like World of Warcraft, whether they're just really interested in the story of the world, like something like Diablo, there's been something within those games that speaks to folks, right? And it speaks to 'em in such a way that, you know, again, when you think about media in general that we get engrossed in, that we come fans in, it's something that we develop a lot of affinity for.

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (09:34):

And what's different, I think for something like a video game is that, you know, you're not just watching a protagonist in many cases, you are the protagonist. You are I impacting and have agency within that world. So the extent to which that you can form connectivity with that media, it's gonna be so much greater. And then again, you layer on other fans that are participating with it, your connection with them. And you know, you'll hear their stories about people that've been playing World of War crap that made lifelong friends, they met their wife, they got married through the game, they got married in the game. Even , like that's, you know, kind of speaks to how powerful this can be for folks that this is where they find common ground to talk with others about their passions. Would

DAMIAN (10:08):

That getting married in a game, uh, would that constitute a premium gaming experience?

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (10:14):

? I would certainly think they think so. Right? And, and you know, and again, there, there's something to be said about like, you know, it, it's one of these things where folks will literally get married in the real world and then have a ceremony in the game, and like they buy each other rings or exchange items or whatnot. And, and you know, again, I think it's easy to kind of sit back and be like, wow, that's kind of weird. Like, but if that is the basis of your relationship, if you met your partner and participated and had adventures and shared stories with them for 10 years, 15 years, then yeah, it's meaningful. And, and, and again, I think these are the types of connections that folks are not quite in tuned with yet. But it speaks to again, how much this type of media tends to affect its fandom

DAMIAN (10:57):

From, from a marketing point of view, the what does it mean to have a premium access to premium gaming experiences? And what kind of research do you do around this to define that concept?

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (11:09):

I mean, I think the, first of all, I think we can take the step back that like premium is by far the most abused word in all of advertising, right? Like straight up, right? And again, I, I think that it's hard to find like hard and fast rules in terms of what does or does not constitute it. But in my mind, what I think will, will always tend to be the case is like, you'll see that on the one hand it's these games that have large followings and they have large followings for different reasons. Again, whether it's engagement, the mechanics, the story, social connections, or what have you. And realistically, one of the parts that I find most satisfying about my job is that, you know, these are household names, right? Like even if you don't really play video games, you have heard of Call of Duty, you have heard of Warcraft, you have heard of Candy Crush.

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (11:48):

So there is definitely a qualitative and quantitative difference for games of that type relative to, to others where there might be experience. And again, that isn't to say that there's, you know, a big differentiation or that like folks shouldn't explore all kinds of places within the, in the gaming environment. But I think it is important to understand that, particularly in these premium experiences, one, a lot of love and care goes in on the development side. And then two, the fans have a lot of love and care for those environments as well. So what we've found in terms of research that we've done, both as it pertains to how our, um, you know, our players think about these experiences or what have you, is that they realistically see that brands when integrated into these titles that are kind of like the more household name premium games, they start to associate the same type of feelings that they have for the game to the brand, which is again, almost entirely the point, right? Like they're try like the, the, the high bar I think for brands is to kind of be able to participate in some of that equity and have it shine on their brand. And we try to facilitate that in a way that's both efficacious for brands, but then again also works well with the expectations of our fans in the game environment.

ILYSE (12:56):

How do you make it possible for brands to actually engage with like, active users of the game? I know there's so much, so many possibilities these days compared to like even a decade ago mm-hmm. .

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (13:07):

See? And yet I think, so you, you hit on an important PO point that there have been opportunities in games almost since games existed. There was some form of advertising. The issue was that back in the day, it was tough and it wasn't super flexible and it, it just wasn't how marketers liked to buy things, right? It was basically you had to be hard coded into the game experience and you lived there kind of in perpetuity. And that's not really how media buyers think. So the big shift that's happened over say, we'll say the last 10 years, but I think we, we could quibble over like, you know, what the exact dates are is that internet connectivity on these games, you know, programmatic, um, technology things have made it a lot more turnkey. So as it stands now in the ecosystem, there's kind of two polarities in terms of opportunities, again, speaking at a very, very high level.

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (13:52):

On the one hand you have integrated marketing. So this, these are the things that you see that are like the concerts, these in-depth integrations, you know, you know, Humvees and games like Call of Duty, things of that nature that really kind of speak to customized builds within the game environment. On the other hand, you have a lot of programmatic media opportunities that even occur in games like Candy Crush or what have you that are video spots and what have you, that we tie into the game environment again, in a way that kind of fits with the mechanics. And that's kind of more or less the, the high level answer to your question is that we really take a lot of time to understand, one, the design intent of our developers. And again, we are fundamentally a game company. So we work hand in hand with our developers to figure out where are the opportune places where brands can integrate, not just in a way that's not obtrusive with our players, but optimally in a way that can enhance the play experience. And whether that's providing them a reward or integrating a brand in a way that actually like increases the realism or the immersion of the actual, you know, game environment. That's kinda the bar we try to set.

ILYSE (14:51):

That's awesome. Uh, could you give us a few like, examples of brands that you guys have worked with in that kind of environment and way?

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (14:58):

I mean, I think, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll stop short of calling out any specific brand aside, but we'll note that I think one of the big misconceptions about gaming is that has to be like endemic brands. That is definitely not the case, right? So we see everything from C P G to restaurants to anything in between. And actually we did do a case study with, um, Prada recently where they were put their, one of their fragrances product candy within Candy Crush, right? Which, you know, kind of makes sense that there's already like some degree of continuity between the two. And interestingly for Product Candy, it is a fragrance that has existed for a while. So it's not a new extension. It had been out on market, but then they wanted to kind of reinvigorate it, they integrated a candy crush. We did like an interactive game for players to like, you look and search for the fragrance on there, and then it linked to their site where they could pull out a sample and they went through all their samples almost instantly, right? So it's something that like, because it resonated that well with the game, it's something that, you know, the fans were really attracted to and I think really drove great results for Product Handy in that case.

DAMIAN (15:58):

I wanted to ask you, you know, where I wanted to ask you, what does your research tell you about where people are playing these games? I know there's a split between mobile and console gaming.

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (16:07):

Yeah, so I mean, what you'll find is that, you know, again, I think when we were talking earlier about how the overall gaming market has expanded, you know, the vast majority of game activity happens on mobile. And again, as a game publisher, we paid attention to that. So it's not only that we have, you know, titles like Candy Crush, which have ostensibly been mobile since mobile gaming was, was a possibility. We're also bringing a lot of our other franchises to mobile environments. So Call of Duty mobile is a great example. Diablo Immortal. We really wanna take all these franchises that were historically console specific and bring them to mobile environments. Now, what's gonna be I think really interesting is that gaming is increasingly going to be a hobby that is divorced from gaming devices. And by that what I mean is through cloud technologies, through increasing speeds on mobile, what we'll find is that virtually anywhere that there's a screen that's smart, there's probably gonna be an opportunity to play a game. And that's where I think we'll continue to see kind of the, the overall rise of the ecosystem. And so far that the easier it is for folks to access these experiences, the more opportunities it gets to build that audience. So I think what you'll find is that, you know, some of the biggest franchises won't just be relegated consular pc, they'll continue to go more mobile, but then eventually they're just gonna go to any screen that has an internet connection. I think that'll be a really interesting shift for the industry. Yeah,

DAMIAN (17:24):

I see. Yeah.

ILYSE (17:26):

Cool. You know, Activision asserts that gaming drives community authenticity and engagement. How would you say that's possible and why does it matter to potential advertisers?

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (17:37):

I mean, it really gets back to that point of fandom. It's, you know, something that we, we've been talking a lot about that, you know, fans, you know, fandoms are created around shared love of a form of media, and again, be a sports team could be anything, right? But in this case, it is indeed some of these game titles. And on the one hand you have a group of folks that are substantively interested in a given form of media in this, in this case a game. Many of them with social features in them, right? So like World of Warcraft, call of Duty, these are all social games. You speak with your teammates, right? Like people are getting married and what have you through these games, but even those that don't actually have social con connectivity built in Candy Crush is a great example. There's still a huge fandom of Candy Crush fans that go to like web forums to talk about strategies in Candy Crush.

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (18:22):

So they will go and find their community no matter what. And again, that I think speaks to the power of it. So that's, you know, the, the opportunity for advertisers is that, you know, fandoms are powerful, right? When someone has that degree of connectivity to media, when it's effective on that level, right, with an a, it can be effective with an e for advertisers. And I think the concern is that because of the intense love that, you know, game players have for games, that can actually be a little scary for advertisers. They believe if they integrate in a way that, you know, well, one, they believe they're not welcome in general, but then two, if they don't integrate in a very specific way, that's gonna kind of go sideways on them. And again, I think there is something to be said that there are ways that you can integrate in gaming that are not gonna be super fan forward and therefore problematic. But if you find a way to integrate that is fan forward that does kind of fit with the needs and expectations of the fans, it can be super effective for advertisers for that reason of the level of affinity that the game players have for the experience.

DAMIAN (19:24):

It seems like gaming is driving a, a, a big shift in entertainment habits and, and is is not siloed anymore as just a gaming thing over here, you know, a a movie experience over here. It's, it's kind of, uh, crossing, I don't know what's the word? Uh,

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (19:39):

Transmedia might be one of the words, right? Yeah. Like where it's multiple stories talked about through multiple forms of media. Yeah.

DAMIAN (19:45):

And, and you know, on that point, how, what does this mean for, for marketers? Do they understand how entertainment habits are actually changing? Are they, are they there yet? Is there, is there more that they need to know?

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (19:57):

I mean, I, I think there's still learning to be done. And, you know, when I go out and I speak about gaming, my, the general point that I want advertisers to walk away with is that even if you aren't bought into the idea of gaming, per se, what you can be bought into is the fact that media in general is becoming more interactive. And gaming is obviously at the forefront of interactive media. And I think advertisers are very good at and understand even down to the psychology of how people think about movies or watch shows, or even Peru's social media less so I think at this time about things like interactivity, it's a different set of psychologies, right? It is a different way in which someone's mind is literally tuned into the media. And I think we're still kinda at the early stages of that.

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (20:43):

And, and you know, I think there I am, I'm encouraged that it has become a broader conversation. I think, you know, when things like the metaverse and whatnot were very hot, that was basically a reflection of that, right? Because everything that the metaverse was that we were talking about, you know, about a year ago and that are no longer really talking about it was basically just gave me experiences, but it was the right idea, right? That oh wow, there's all these people, they're in these online interactive spaces. How should I think about that? And again, maybe wrong focus at that point, but it was the right question.

DAMIAN (21:13):

Hmm. And one of the things I you are very interested in is, is measuring attention and attention metrics. How does that work in the context of gaming and why is it so significant? Have we caught up yet? Have marketers caught up with the way we should be looking at how people are paying attention in these new forms of media?

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (21:30):

I mean, you know, it is certainly the case that you will be hard pressed to find a single marketer out there that is happy with their measurement period. And, and again, to be clear, that's not a problem necessarily with the measurement companies. That's just kind of the nature of how measurement works with advertising, not the least of which. And again, I think apropos adver or to attention specifically is that the focus and conversation around attention in my mind just really signals that we are dissatisfied with the metrics that we have today. Fundamentally, most of the media that we're buying on is through the same metrics and lenses that we use circa 1970, right? It's reach and frequency, which is great, it has its purposes. Obviously advertising is a scale game. We need to make sure that we have enough people that see a message, but we're less sure about whether it mattered to them or whether they saw it.

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (22:19):

Because again, recall that, you know, reach is an opportunity to see not whether someone saw it. So on the one hand, I think attention is becoming a broader conversation, one because I think we, there is more focus on not just the breadth, but the depth of these potential interactions and how folks are consuming media. But then also because in worlds where more media's consumed interactively reach and frequency just might not cut it. Now again, it's an interesting conversation, but much like the general dissatisfaction around measurement more generally, we're pretty far away from a standardized definition. I think it's a, it's an active and interesting conversation that's going on, but in my mind, regardless, almost regardless of what definition we'd land on, is something that I think needs to happen because otherwise we're still gonna be stuck in the same reach frequency mode of buying that we kind of used to buy linear TV several decades ago.

DAMIAN (23:11):

I mean, one of the challenges, uh, I guess one of the needs for this idea of attention metrics is to be able to measure results in different channels. And it's not apples to oranges, it's apple want. The, the need is to kind of a me have an apples to apples measurement, right? And that doesn't necessarily exist yet. And I'm wondering about, you know, when it comes to gaming future integrations across different channels, how do you see that? I mean, playing out,

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (23:38):

So gaming is one of the big challenges that I think we have as a, as certainly as a gaming publisher, but then also the broader marketing world has about thinking about gaming in general is that, you know, if we think about social, right, you're looking at degrees of apps and ev all these apps are different, but fundamentally, if you're focusing on one, like it's an app, and, and again, that's not to say that's not very complicated what have you, but like it's a technology, gaming is an ecosystem, right? So even if you were to go and have someone sit in this chair and ask them, oh, are are you doing anything in gaming? They'll say, oh yeah, yeah, I am. And if you ask them what are they doing, you're gonna get a lot of different answers, right? Like, maybe it's Twitch, maybe it's eSports, maybe it's mobile games, maybe it's some spots and dots and you know, console titles or what have you.

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (24:22):

Huge degree of diversity. So on the one hand, when we've been thinking about measurement, we want it to be applicable to every experience that an advertiser can have in our ecosystem. And the more that we can build our platform to essentially get some degree of equivalence, whether it's across any number of touchpoint within the ecosystem, the better, broader industry, cross platform measurement is a conversation that's been going on as long as I've been doing ad measurement. That's a long time. Um, and, and again, I think we're a pretty far ways away if we're being honest with ourselves. Again, even if we take gaming to a side and don't even think about that just in general media, we're pretty far ways away. But I am encouraged by things like attention, because what we can agree on is things like reach and frequency, right? Like we might have some disagreement about when, where, and how and how do we wanna like measure things like fraud and delivery and what have you. But we all kind of know what it means and we can all kind of compare it across them. What attention needs to do is get to that point. And when it gets to that point, then it becomes a currency, then it becomes useful. And then I think it becomes super meaningful that not only are we understanding the scale of the potential execution, but again also how much it affected us, which in my mind is super important for interactive media like gaming.

ILYSE (25:32):

Now you mentioned you foresee basically anything with a screen being an area or an opportunity for someone to game. And it's true that like gaming is making its way into like a bunch of different channels. Even like Netflix now has games, for instance. It's crazy. Um, how do you see like other like, forms of new technology from AI to Metaverse technologies further expand the potential like real estate for gaming and opportunities to reach gamers?

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (26:01):

So if we, if we tick through the buzzwords real quick, right? So like on on, on the one hand, ai, super popular conversation going on, AI's been used in gaming for years, right? So like, and, and again, like we could get a little bit wonky and just talk about, eh, it's for the most part just machine learning and stats and things we've been doing for a while. But, you know, again, even things like procedural generation, what have you, that's been part and parcel to gaming for a long time. So on the one hand, you know, there's something to be said about game developers have experienced with that, but we, you know, continue to lean into these new worlds because again, it creates a lot of power in terms of how we can make experiences on a more scaled basis. As a general note, when I, again, one of these kind of truisms that I give folks is that when they want to think about or really see what kind of the future of the media landscape is, you do wanna look to gaming for these types of things, right?

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (26:48):

So again, ai, it's kind of been a part of gaming for quite some time. Vr, same deal, right? Like, so for the most part, most of the more popular experiences we have in VR are generally games. But then on the other hand, if you look at the percentage of people on platforms like steam, which is a very popular, um, platform for PC gaming, the install base of VR headsets is about 2%. It usually waffles between one or 2%. So again, you would kind of already know that the market for VR hasn't really developed even then just looking at how gamers are oriented towards it. And metaverse, you know, again, there, it was very much a double-edged blood blade type of conversation that on the one hand I was really excited that people were starting to think about online immersive, interactive environments. On the other hand, they were just talking about gaming, but calling it something else, right?

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (27:40):

And I think there has been a little bit of correction, like yes, there are grander plans or grand plans in terms of building something more generalized like a metaverse, but realistically all of our best practice for it and all the techno technology platforms that exist right now are gaming. So on the one hand, like there's a lot to be said about all these types of things with within the gaming ecosystem, but on the other, you know, a a again, I think it's important for marketers to understand not just because of the opportunity within gaming today, because there are many, but also it's a really good lens to kind of judge some of these new emerging trends through in terms of how it's worked in the gaming ecosystem. Mm-hmm. ,

ILYSE (28:17):

You know, one area of gaming that is continuing to grow I feel like is that of like e-commerce and shopping through games. Um, you can buy, you know, skins, you can buy elements to build out your characters these days. Just curious about, I guess your outlook on that and how you see growth in that when it comes to e-commerce.

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (28:39):

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, the, the, on the one hand there's something to be said that in general when you look at things like buying skins, even advertisements in games, things of that nature, this is all coming from the fact that the games industry wants to move with the economy of the world in such a way that like we want everyone to play our games and ultimately we just wanna transact with folks in a way that makes sense for them, right? So in some games, some experiences, no one wants to pay anything and maybe they're happy to watch an ad and that's okay. And others they wanna pay 60 or $70 upfront and that's okay too. And then in a third maybe they're buying certain, you know, skins and what have you. And again, that's fine. Like what all of these potential activations allow us to do is just again, be flexible in terms of how we can transact with customers to again, make sure that we're reaching virtually everyone.

JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (29:23):

So on the one hand, I think that's gonna continue to be important not just for the game industry, but also the flexibility that we gain give to game developers. For brands specifically, one, obviously that provides a lot of opportunities because things like advertisements and integration with skins and integrated marketing like we talked about before, like that can all be weaved into there. And then even certain environments being set up as commerce platforms in and of themselves. Like if it's something that makes sense for the game environment, like yeah, right? Like, you know, imagine, again, I'm gonna kind of make this up, but 10 years ago you didn't buy anything online, right? But then it kind of became something that was novel and then it became something that you did a little bit more. And now I buy near everything online, right? Like I like, it's almost weird when I go to a store. I think we could start to see that in gaming, right? The more that we start to use these technologies and become normalized in our everyday practice, then that is something that we'll use for a wider variety of use cases from socialization, whether it be the Metaverse to shopping.

DAMIAN (30:24):

And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned.

ILYSE (30:30):

The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Berkley and Cat Festy.

DAMIAN (30:38):

And remember, I'm Damien.

ILYSE (30:47):

And I'm Elise.

DAMIAN (30:48):

And we'll see you next time. And

ILYSE (30:50):

If you love this podcast, be sure to subscribe and leave a review. While you're at it, check out our other show, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's happening in the world of digital media.

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State Farm’s Head of Marketing, Alyson Griffin, breaks down making the company’s iconic jingle a bigger deal next year and diving more into retail media.

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

 

Damian Fowler: (00:01)

I'm Damien Fowler. And

Ilyse Liffreing: (00:02)

I'm EIS Lfr. And

Damian Fowler: (00:03)

Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Ilyse Liffreing: (00:10)

This week we're delighted to talk with Allison Griffin, the head of marketing for State Farm.

Damian Fowler: (00:15)

State Farm Insurance Group has been around for more than a hundred years, but thanks to its high profile marketing campaigns, it remains a household name in the us. Over the years, companies had many entertaining creative campaigns, and the latest of course features the affable character of Jake from State Farm, who was present at a certain NFL game that made headlines in 2023. And

Ilyse Liffreing: (00:36)

We'll get to that with more than 25 years of experience leading teams at top Tech brands. Allison became head of marketing for the Iconic brand in May, 2021. She has a motto which goes like this, always curious, always learning, always happy to share my insights.

Alyson Griffin: (00:59)

State Farm is a 100 year old brand. You know, we've gotta try to figure out how to remain relevant, not only to our current big tried and true customer base of all. I'm pointing at myself, I know we're on a podcast, the Gen Xers of the world and older, but also that next generation. And one of the ways we do that is through life stages. And of course, every marketer knows you have to be relevant to the target that you're going after. Look, people don't think about insurance at all, ever. Maybe , if I could say, with a big smile on my face. So we've gotta think about, you know, your first apartment or your first car, or having a baby or buying a home, or those life stages matter because they matter to the person that they're happening to. They're big events. And for us, dissecting who the target is, what stage they're in, and how, you know, what do they care about? That has started to shape our media strategy. It started to shape how we think about capturing current demand, generating future demand, and retention and loyalty for our customer base.

Ilyse Liffreing: (02:05)

Now there's a lot of strategy, obviously behind your marketing campaigns. For instance, when you're selling auto or life insurance, there's a product for sale. But the genius of your campaigns is that you don't really talk about the product like it's there. Obviously you're selling it, but it's not, you know, in your face. This is auto life insurance. Um, what is the concept you are marketing exactly, would you say? And how does that vary, I guess, based on the demographic?

Alyson Griffin: (02:33)

Yeah, so it's different than, you know, if you hold up your phone or something, it's different than a product that somebody needs to understand how much it costs. How long is the battery life? I'm sort of making this up, this is different. The, the insurance, what we're selling is in part the policy, but it's also in part a relationship with the agent. We have almost 20,000 agents across the United States who are independent contractors, you know, not State Farm employees, and they're running small businesses and trying to be meaningful and are meaningful in the communities where they live and work and offer basically advice services, et cetera. So for us, from a national campaign perspective, we've gotta make sure the brand is strong and branding is not product advertising. We need to make sure that our assets are known and appreciated. And asset is Jake from State Farm that you already mentioned, but also our jingle or even just the words like a good neighbor State Farm is there. And so we dial up and dial down each of those assets in real life or in the virtual world, depending on the life stage. The person that we're targeting, do they know us or not? Are we trying to bind a policy today or not? And that's, you know, the mix with which we're trying to buy media and showing up in places where these current and potential customers are. It's

Damian Fowler: (03:54)

Interesting to hear you talk about big national campaigns and that that awareness that you drive and done it so successfully over the years. And, and the latest iteration of course is is Jake from State Farm, that character, what, why has he proved such a strong character in campaigns?

Alyson Griffin: (04:09)

He started out over 10 years ago as Jake, a real State Farm employee, and it was back when we were putting agents and employees in our ads. And you may recall the original campaign where it's a middle of the night phone call and the husband is talking on the phone, the wife comes downstairs, who are you talking to? And it's Jake from State Farm. And the question is, what are you wearing? And he says, uh, khakis, . So we got a lot of play out of that for many, many, many years. But that was of real employees, not an actor, doesn't, he has a job and a family and a life and isn't a trained actor. So fast forward to about 2019, um, maybe 2018, the company was looking to say, Hey, we have some equity in the, in the asset or the one word, I'll call it Jake from State Farm, all one word.

Alyson Griffin: (04:56)

And you know, how do we dial that up and make that asset work harder and be more meaningful for, for us, because we thought it could be the personification of what it means to be a good neighbor. And we're very fortunate, he is thought of as a real person, and he's not a cartoon or a caricature. He's really Jake from State Farm, he's a guy, he's doing good neighbor stuff, he's got a TikTok account just like regular influencer or regular person would. And for us, making him bring to life the values of what it means to help more people in more ways and to be that good neighbor in the country, uh, really mattered to us. And so we put a lot of effort into making that a cultural icon. Yeah,

Damian Fowler: (05:43)

I mean he really has cut through and he's a very competitive world i, I gather so, and State Farm is very much present in the culture and um, one of the ways that you've done this so successfully is leaning into major sporting personalities, um, over the last several years, uh, including a campaign featuring,

Alyson Griffin: (06:03)

Uh,

Damian Fowler: (06:03)

Patrick Mahomes and Travis Kelsey for instance.

Alyson Griffin: (06:06)

What's

Damian Fowler: (06:07)

The playbook there when you, when it comes to partnering with sports stars?

Alyson Griffin: (06:11)

We've been in sports for a very long time and it's important to us because it's tied to real passion. It's one of the last bastions of eyeballs all watching the same event at the same time. Right? Live television doesn't much exist anymore. If you're watching a Netflix episode and I'm watching one, we might not be at the same spot at the same time, for example. But live sports, you get people who are engaged across generations and, and a lot of viewership also don't forget from an advertising perspective, there's also highlights the replays, et cetera. So for us, sports has been long something we've leaned into and the advertising we realized performs better when, if you're not an endemic brand to sports, and we are not. And so for us, aligning our brand with brand ambassadors who match our values and are at the top of their game, showed us that we could cut through. So we have football, you know, Patrick Mahomes, you mentioned Travis Kelsey, he was with us this current football season. Um, and Coach Reed, you know, in football spots and Chris Paul and other NBA players in basketball spots. We have women for women's sports, et cetera. So the idea is if we match the passion and a relevant player and create a spot that leans into endemically where the ad is showing, it just performs much better.

Damian Fowler: (07:31)

Hmm, that's interesting.

Ilyse Liffreing: (07:33)

Now, speaking of sport and Travis Kelsey, let's talk about that viral moment that was created when Jake from State Farm was spotted chatting with who else? The Donna, Kelsey,

Alyson Griffin: (07:43)

Travis

Ilyse Liffreing: (07:44)

Kelsey's mom, of course in the NFL Suite.

Alyson Griffin: (07:47)

What

Ilyse Liffreing: (07:47)

Kind of reaction did you get from this, like viral moments and seeing all the elements come together? Can you walk us through how you kind of seized the moment?

Alyson Griffin: (07:55)

Yeah, that was really interesting. So the week before, we know that Travis Kelsey had a special guest in the box with his mom, and that was Taylor Swift. So I like to say we acted swiftly, . And within a week, um, we were able to place Jake from State Farm at Jason Kelsey's game, the Eagles. And we didn't want, you know, Jason, Kelsey's mom not to have a superstar celebrity sit with her. Uh, I say with a big smile on my face, . And it was great. We, we did have to act really fast. We that came together in less than 48 hours and, and for us capturing a cultural moment, and again, we have this asset that looks like and acts like and feels like a real human being. Jake from State Farm, so he could show up in the stands sitting with Mama Ma Otto, I'll call her as a nod to Travis Kelsey playing Mahomes and Mato in our current ads. Um, but with Donna Kelsey and, and him sitting there, you know, he sits, uh, courtside at NBA Allstar games, he shows up at Bravo con Twitch Con, right? Like, so Jake shows up in the world. And, and so the magic of saying we could really capitalize on this quickly and the fact that all the stars aligned and it came together was really, really fun for us.

Ilyse Liffreing: (09:12)

What does like a viral moment like that though mean for your brand? Because I know you talked about being like culturally resonant brand in insurance

Alyson Griffin: (09:21)

And

Ilyse Liffreing: (09:21)

This would seem like a perfect example of

Alyson Griffin: (09:24)

Doing

Ilyse Liffreing: (09:24)

Just that

Alyson Griffin: (09:25)

For us. Um, being culturally relevant matters. And it's not that any brand tries to be if you try too hard and for us, it's not that we're trying too hard, it's Hey, Jake would be there and we thought that we would be true to who we are. He shows up in those kinds of, um, situations regularly. And so let's just try it. And it wasn't because we were trying to be culturally iconic, it was because it just fit.

Damian Fowler: (09:55)

I mean, I wonder how do you measure something like that? I know it is a viral moment and it goes big, but do you see kind of the results of that?

Alyson Griffin: (10:02)

Yes. You can't pick a viral moment, right? It goes viral because it goes viral. And, and so then all of the, you know, there's the regular stuff you would think the reach, the syndication, the press, the chatter on, you know, X and other social media platforms of course were part of it. Engagement hashtags. That was all obvious. But what we were super excited about is a company EDO does measurement around search volume and correlating the exact second that Jake from State Farm was on camera to search volume was astonishing. Astonishing. And the results of all six of those spots increased in awareness by 15 times because of the viral moment. So it was like something that you wouldn't know, that you can't test and you don't get the opportunity to learn from very often, right? 'cause those don't happen very often. But we saw meaningful increase and value from a very innocent, just let's put Jake from State Farm next to Donna Kelsey.

Damian Fowler: (11:12)

I know you are exploring other channels as well to reach, you mentioned Gen X and Gen Z, the Gen Z audience, which is obviously

Alyson Griffin: (11:19)

Gonna

Damian Fowler: (11:20)

Be looking for insurance too. Um, in particular your gamer hood challenge, which launched last year, and I'm interested to talk about gaming and eSports and why is that an important part of your playbook?

Alyson Griffin: (11:31)

I'm fairly new to State Farm. I've been at State Farm for two and a half years, but I spent almost 30 years in the tech industry. And I say that to say gaming. I was at Hewlett-Packard and Intel for most of my career, and they're endemic to gaming. And so I had a lot of experience in the gaming world when I stepped in the door at State Farm, the insurance category other than maybe a logo sponsorship on a gamer or a game that's pretty much all the insurance industry was doing. And I was like, look, if we can, because the audience mattered these gamers, not eSports teams, but a casual fun gamers, much bigger universe. And we thought if we could tap in for generating future demand, again, these are not people who are buying policies today, but to get and show up at the place they already are with, um, an interest that they already have.

Alyson Griffin: (12:23)

It's very similar to the playbook of sports, but this is a different kind of audience and showing up for them in gaming. And so we created our own intellectual property around a gaming competition. It's run two years in a row now in the month of June for five episode, five weekly episodes and have gamers competing. And we've got Jake from State Farm in there, our assets and we loosely tie insurable moments. So think the gamers have to cope with distractions and still try to win. And some of the distractions are pipes in the house will burst or um, some of them went on a little road trip and they got a flat tire, right? So just loose and fun. We're not selling anything, we're not trying to shove anything down the throats, but to watch these, I'll call them insurable moments, hinder the forward progress of a gamer in a fun, interesting way. And the gamers had a lot of fun with, it was a really cool experience, uh, for us. And it's done quite well. That's

Damian Fowler: (13:21)

Interesting. It goes back to your sort of ways of reaching customers at these different life stages and you're very nuanced about it and, and kind of smart the way you, you're doing it.

Alyson Griffin: (13:31)

Well, exactly where they are on Twitch and YouTube, right? Mm-Hmm. from a gaming perspective. So be where they are, don't make them come to me. Mm-Hmm. , they're not gonna go seeking out an insurance brand. I better go be there. Mm-Hmm. with something fun, interesting and different. And that's what we attempted to do.

Damian Fowler: (13:45)

I also noticed that you had created some Pinterest pins aimed at educating viewers around why they should get life insurance.

Alyson Griffin: (13:53)

Can

Damian Fowler: (13:53)

You talk a little bit about that campaign as well?

Alyson Griffin: (13:55)

Yeah. That's another life stage, right? So these media partners of ours are great because we wanna lean in and be, I'm gonna call it, I've never used this before, but endemic to the partner, right? Mm-Hmm. . So a Pinterest board. Mm-Hmm. . And if you can notice what somebody is doing, whether they're redecorating a room, like looks like, oh, this person might be remodeling their bathroom, or oh, this person might be having a baby, or oh, this person might be buying a new house or cars or whatever. Pinterest is such a great, uh, media outlet for passion points. And we thought, well, these are life moments. And as we talked about at the top of the podcast, these life moments, um, are a way in for us to meet a person where they are and not just say, get a quote for auto insurance, but to go offer them up something that's contextually relevant to what they're doing. And because Pinterest is what Pinterest is, we're able to do that in a meaningful way. Now when it

Ilyse Liffreing: (14:51)

Comes to more like big TV buys and like maybe CTV buys, do you think like holistically about campaigns and connect those big TV buys with like more performance driven plays? Oh,

Alyson Griffin: (15:05)

A hundred percent. So State Farm, you know, is a prolific advertiser, right? Our category demands that. And television was the way, let's say, I don't even know, it's probably wasn't that long ago if I really stopped to think about it. The world's moving so fast.

Ilyse Liffreing: (15:18)

It is, it is.

Alyson Griffin: (15:20)

Goes quickly, but we know that digital matters and so do the, the media partners. They know that, um, digital and the even live shows that get streamed for the week after, they know that they can target that there's a lot of value that they can sell to advertisers for that long tail of their own, even a live experience. So we know that we need to do both. We still are big advertisers in live tv, mostly sports, but also working with the media partners who are putting really great content online and targeting. And that data matters so much and we're working more and more and more with partners to figure out how do we catch the right person at the right time with the right message, um, that's contextually relevant and that helps us be relevant to the person at the time that they need it.

Damian Fowler: (16:13)

Retail data is really come into its own, should we say, and especially for non-endemic brands, again, inside that ecosystem. How has that made a difference? Um, you know, in the last two years,

Alyson Griffin: (16:24)

A lot, it's funny, and I can say this out loud because Home Depot themselves said it, we're the first non-endemic partner of Home Depot, and we're partnering with them not only for their stores and the environment, they have a lot of small businesses as their customers, as well as home ownership, right? Mm-Hmm. and Car Repair and Home and Auto, yeah. Um, and so we are partnering with the Home Depot who knows very deeply about who their customers are and what matters from a data sharing perspective. And, uh, we think there's nowhere to go but up on that. Of course, we do it with media partners, of course. Uh, Disney being a very big one, right? Just because of all of their properties. It, it's on both levels is my point. So a big media partner that knows their audience, but someone like Home Depot or Walmart, those are really important to us so that we can continue to offer the best message to these customers and around things like small business or home improvement or auto care that matters to us. We sell those products.

Ilyse Liffreing: (17:25)

How are you thinking about 2024? Do you think you can actually like build upon this year's viral moments,

Alyson Griffin: (17:32)

? Yeah, I mean, we hope so, right? So Jake from State Farm isn't going anywhere, but we are going to dial up, you'll start seeing, um, more around our jingle. So I'm not saying our jingle is not known like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. I won't sing it here,

Ilyse Liffreing: (17:46)

, although I'll

Alyson Griffin: (17:47)

Tell you, I'll give you a little fun fact That Jingle was written in 1971 by none other than Barry Manalow.

Ilyse Liffreing: (17:53)

No, really?

Damian Fowler: (17:54)

Yes. Does Barry get royalties?

Alyson Griffin: (17:55)

I don't know. , , probably , but we, you know, it's known and there's a lot of TikTok. You can go out and look at our, look at that jingle and see a lot of people playing with the content. We wanna kind of kick that into high gear again and, um, not only talk about Jake from State Farm, but have some fun playing with our jingles. So the notion of being a good neighbor and being there for people is one part of it. But the actual notes, the song of it is another.

Damian Fowler: (18:25)

And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week with our guest, Jonathan Stringfield, the VP of Global Research and Marketing at Activision Blizzard

Jonathan Stringfield:

Gaming is increasingly going to be a hobby that is divorced from gaming devices virtually anywhere that there is a screen that's smart, there's probably gonna be an opportunity to play a game. 

Ilyse Liffreing: (19:02)

And if you love this podcast, be sure to subscribe and leave a review While you're at it. Check out our other show, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's happening in the world of digital media. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by Loving Caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.

Damian Fowler: (19:31)

And remember,

Ilyse Liffreing: (18:30)

The current podcast is produced by Wondered Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Ley and Cat Feste.

Damian Fowler: (18:38)

And remember,

Alyson Griffin: (18:39)

We've gotta make sure the brand is strong and branding is not product advertising. We need to make sure that our assets are known and appreciated.

Damian Fowler: (18:49)

I'm Damien

Ilyse Liffreing: (18:50)

And I'm Elise.

Damian Fowler: (18:51)

And that's it for season seven of the current podcast. We'll be back soon for a new season with more great conversations with the world's leading marketers. And if you like what you hear, subscribe, and please leave as a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet. We'll see you soon.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The NFL’s Marissa Solis on the Taylor Swift effect, expanding globally, and the powerful messaging coming for the Super Bowl.

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian Fowler: (00:01)

I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse Liffreing: (00:02)

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. And

Damian Fowler: (00:03)

Welcome to this edition of The Current podcast.

Ilyse Liffreing: (00:10)

This week we're delighted to talk with Marissa Solis, the SVP of Global and Consumer Marketing for the NFL

Damian Fowler: (00:17)

In 2021, the NFL recruited Marissa after almost two decades As a marketing leader with PepsiCo, it was an opportunity to influence the league's almost 400 million sports fans around the world.

Marissa Solis: (00:32)

It's an incredible feeling when the NFL calls and especially with an opportunity to influence the messaging and the marketing of such an incredible platform with so much potential. You know, it's something, an opportunity I can pass up.

Damian Fowler: (00:45)

I mean, there's no doubt about it that the NFL is one of the most dominant cultural forces in the world. So let's start right there. And we obviously have to start with the NFL's, which recent pop culture boost from Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey, which is must be a consumer marketer's dream in a way. Could you talk to us about that moment and the opportunity for you as a marketer?

Marissa Solis: (01:05)

It means a lot when things like this happen and it goes so viral, it just goes to show that the NFL is at the peak of, you know, entertainment. I have to tell you, none of us knew this was not planned. This was not anything that was orchestrated. We had sort of heard the rumors about Travis, you know, going to her concert and then inviting her to the game. But we really didn't know. We didn't know she was gonna show up at the game. And so when it all happened, I mean the power of social media, right within 10 seconds this thing went viral. And for us, you know, we have a social media and influencer arm within the league that are ready at the go when anything happens. So we were able to capitalize and have some fun with the fans. Uh, we created some 1 0 1 football videos for Swifties that had never seen the game before on how you play. But think about all of the NFL fans that don't know who Taylor Swift is. So we also were able to do a little bit of education to some of our NFL fans about who she is. So it's actually been a cultural education for a lot of people and we've had a lot of fun with it. Yeah,

Ilyse Liffreing: (02:10)

Thank you for clearing that up because I think a lot of rumors circulating was like, oh, the NF L's behind it, they know this happened. Had no idea they a plan

Marissa Solis: (02:17)

Idea. No idea. But I, I think, you know, it's a really good lesson for marketers. Mm-hmm. Culture happens at the speed of light and you just have to be ready. You know, we like to say or think we create culture, but culture is organic and embedded culture just happens and we just happen to be ready at the moment, right? Yeah.

Damian Fowler: (02:37)

There's no doubt that the Super Bowl is the high point of the year. Curious, are you gonna be using some of these immovable cultural forces like Taylor Swift and Kelsey in your Super Bowl messaging?

Marissa Solis: (02:47)

You know, we always leveraged the Super Bowl to do some powerful messaging around the joy of the sport, but also how the sport transcends. So last year the message was all around the power of women and what women bring to the sport. And now we're in the Olympics. So you're gonna see some powerful messaging about what the league means to culture. It will be a very powerful message.

Ilyse Liffreing: (03:10)

On that note, do you have like a favorite Super Bowl ad?

Marissa Solis: (03:13)

I did not even know you were gonna ask me that by the way. But I have to say, and it's very ironic, my favorite Super Bowl out of all times was actually created by Tim Ellis, who's my boss. He was not at the NFL at the time, he was at Volkswagen and it's the Darth Vader spot. You know, I don't know if you know where the, where the little boy he's playing Darth Vader and at the end the dad turns on the car and he's like, oh my God, I love, love that spot. And when I interviewed with Tim that was like the first thing I

Damian Fowler: (03:44)

Wanted to just pivot a little bit. I saw an interview in the Hollywood reporter with uh, the NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, who was headlined Hollywood's MVP. And in that piece he talks about how the NFL has embraced streaming, which you know is a topic we talk about a lot. And he was quoted as saying

Marissa Solis: (04:00)

The

Damian Fowler: (04:01)

Technology's changing, the platforms are changing, the economy is changing and we have to be ahead of that strategy at all times so that we are where our fans are and on the platforms they want to be on. Can you talk to us a little bit about the challenge

Marissa Solis: (04:12)

And

Damian Fowler: (04:13)

Opportunity of these streaming platforms that he's talking about

Marissa Solis: (04:17)

Really more of an opportunity. It really becomes about, like he said, being where our fans are and we know particularly Gen Z, they're not necessarily watching linear tv. They're not spending three and a half hours, you know, watching a game. And so that's why platforms like Google and YouTube and having Sunday ticket on there opens up an incredible way to distribute our content. Also it opens up the power of the creator economy for us because we can leverage a lot of YouTube's creators to create content to attract this audience. You think about all of the different things we've been able to do with that YouTube partnership, every club has a YouTube channel. We have our Spanish language NFL channel. So we've been able to do a lot with Google and YouTube. We also have our Thursday night football partnership with Amazon. So for the first time ever, this is the second year that a Thursday night a big platform game is completely streamed. We're now commanding on average 13 million viewers a week on a streaming platform. That's massive. I don't know if you guys know this, but this will be the first year in history that we create a Black Friday game on Amazon. So first time ever there's a Friday NFL game, it's on Amazon Prime but it's going to be free. So it's not behind the paywall. Anybody can join, anybody can stream it. So we think it's gonna be huge.

Damian Fowler: (05:38)

That's gonna be huge. Yeah. Wow. Another huge cultural force. Another

Marissa Solis: (05:42)

Huge cultural force. So now you have a Black Friday game, you know, it's a new watching occasion.

Ilyse Liffreing: (05:47)

What do you think overall about like streaming and live sports coming together and just captivating like whole new audiences? I know with the brand like the NFL, which everybody knows, it's kind of can be hard to like strike a balance between embracing like new preferences and habits of like younger consumers while also then maintaining the authenticity and tradition of a brand as like iconic as the NFL.

Marissa Solis: (06:12)

Yeah, of course. And it, it is the right balance and the beautiful thing is when you look at linear tv, even though you know you start to see some audiences leave linear, we still command the biggest audiences on linear, right? We just had our largest game ever on Sunday night with 28 million viewers. Now some of that may have been the Travis and Taylor Swift effect, but we're still commanding audiences on linear. However, when you look at the opportunity to do streaming, like I said, direct to consumer, we just launched our direct to consumer platform, NFL plus. And so you can also stream games on your mobile, you can look at statistics, you can look at lifestyle and stories, uh, of the players and really get much more involved in the game than just watching, you know, the traditional three hour game. There's a lot more there to, to see and learn about.

Ilyse Liffreing: (07:04)

Now part of your remit is to help diversify the marketing for the NFL or as you put it so nicely, future-proof the brand. I have read that 60% of the NFL audience is white and over 35 the America of the future however will be very young and multicultural. So how do you approach this challenge?

Marissa Solis: (07:23)

I think that stat that you read is probably about two years old and interestingly enough, that was one of the reasons I came to the NFL. In order for us to stay relevant in the future, we have to reflect the audiences that we serve. And as the world gets more multicultural as Gen Z and Jen A as they kind of come into being, we really have to embrace them and bring 'em in. So part of our strategy is to keep the fan base we have, but a big part of our strategy is to extend to those new audiences. So that includes, you know, gen Z and younger audiences, but also multicultural audiences, our Latino audience, our African American and Asian audience, our L-G-B-T-Q community. Like we really need to embrace them and bring them in to engage with a sport in a new way.

Damian Fowler: (08:11)

Can I just ask, how specifically do you try to engage those different communities?

Marissa Solis: (08:16)

Yeah, I think it's about meeting them where they are, both from a channel perspective, right? How they're watching, but also understanding how they engage with the game. They all engage with the game very, very differently. You know, our Latino audience is an example. The way they watch, the way they celebrate, the way they tailgate is very, very different. They bring in their traditions and so we wanna celebrate that. We've been doing a lot this year to really highlight Latino players 'cause people don't even realize we have 51 Latino players on the roster playing and each one of them has a very unique and different story. So you know, whether it's Fred Warner from the 49 ERs ERs who's a Mexican descent or young Colombian player, you know, who just got drafted in the league Rodriguez who plays for the Patriots. It's all about kind of bringing to life in a very different way to these audiences, uh, the game. And

Ilyse Liffreing: (09:09)

One of those audiences is women too. And the NFL has made a big effort towards getting more women involved in the game, both as staff and then as fans. What are some ways you're trying to connect your marketing to women?

Marissa Solis: (09:21)

Yeah, I think women, you know, are big part of our fan base. Almost 47% of our fan base are women. We have the highest women fan base percent of any league in the country and women love football, right? So it really is about engaging them in the game in a unique way, recognizing not just how they engage and watch the game, but also how they participate. I don't think people realize we have so many women champion players, right? Both flag football but also tackle. I just heard that there was the first ever high school girl that just got a scholarship to play tackle to be the kicker for a college team. So more and more women are participating, they're becoming coaches, trainers, scouts, you know, executives. So it's a great way to kind of see that level of participation. And of course, you know, we have to get back to Taylor and the swifty effect capturing this fan base, right? The swifties as you call them and really having the opportunity to educate them, bring them in, bring kind of that cultural fandom, the lifestyle, whether it's the music, the fashion, the food, all of those things are part of the NFL and part of the sport. So it just makes it richer and and more relevant.

Ilyse Liffreing: (10:37)

Do you see that Taylor Swift effect, if you will, kind of more as like a flash in the pan or do you think they'll have like a last engagement? Especially with women?

Marissa Solis: (10:45)

What I think is important for us is that we have a moment in time where swifties, as we call 'em, are paying attention. And so this is our moment to capture them and bring 'em into the sport so that they engage ongoing. Whether the Taylor Swift effect last or doesn't last, we wanna keep that fan base and we'll do so by again being culturally relevant, bringing in their life, their music, their fashion, the way they really wanna engage the game.

Damian Fowler: (11:13)

The NFL really is a cultural force and a lot of brands look to the NFL as sort of a beacon for sports across the media landscape. You know, I'm wondering how, you know, you approach distribution and partnerships in your marketing and what brands can learn from how you approach it.

Marissa Solis: (11:28)

I mean, again, it's really about being where the fans are. So every partnership matters, right? And we take every partnership very seriously. And so whether it's a partnership that has a lot of reach so that we reach a massive audience or maybe it's a partnership that will reach somebody different, whether it's in another country or a segment of, you know, the fan base that we haven't reached before. We have a very nascent platform right now as an example called Mundo, NFL. It is a podcast based platform and again, it's reaching a completely new audience and may not be as broad based as, you know, a Google or a YouTube, but it's still important for us 'cause we're reaching that fan base. So it's a balance of reach, very, very targeted, but just making sure that we are offering the content and distributing it out there to, you know, every corner of the fan base as I call it.

Damian Fowler: (12:22)

What kind of market research do you do to stay ahead of where fans are moving and the kind of things that they want to engage with and how that is evolving? Yeah,

Marissa Solis: (12:29)

We're very, very engaged in research 24 7, 3, 6 5. The very basic, you know, we do keep a pulse on how the league is doing with fans. We know perception, uh, we measure certain attributes, you know, are we inclusive, are we fun, are we engaging? And we measure them across all those audiences. And that is ongoing, right? In terms of culture, I wish I could tell you the, the formula, there really isn't one. It really is about having a very engaged team. As I mentioned, we have an incredible social and influencer team led by Ian Trombetta, which I gotta give them a shout out. They are incredible. They're in the culture and they hear things and they observe and they do a lot of social listening. And when something like Taylor Swift showing up to the game happens, even though we didn't know about it, they're on it immediately. And I think that's, that's where the success comes from. Where

Damian Fowler: (13:22)

Do you find inspiration in, in what's going on in the larger culture?

Marissa Solis: (13:26)

We like the balance of timeless and timely. You've gotta keep these timeless essence about you that creates your brand, but you also have to be really timely, right? I'll also say what inspires me at our brands with purpose, because we aren't just about the game, we transcend the game. We're such a big platform, we wanna make an impact to communities everywhere and we bring people together. We can uplift, you know, underserved communities. So when I see brands like Patagonia doing things, they aren't for necessarily for the profit of it, they're for the good of the community and the world. Those things inspire me as well.

Damian Fowler: (14:04)

You have a great deal of responsibility. It's one of the most powerful brands. Do you feel that sense of responsibility

Marissa Solis: (14:09)

Every single day? There's so many eyes on the league, anything that happens is talked about. We don't control the players, we don't control. When Taylor shows up to a stadium, we, we don't control it. It is an incredible sense of responsibility to try to at least shape the culture so that, you know, the message is a positive one and we make a positive impact, not a negative impact. So that, that's a tough one. Now,

Ilyse Liffreing: (14:36)

Earlier this year you announced that NFL expanded its global markets program. Can you tell us a bit about that and then what the marketing opportunity looks like internationally for American football?

Marissa Solis: (14:48)

Super exciting. This is probably one of the things I'm most excited about, about the league. You know, arguably we're the biggest sports and entertainment entity in the us. Not so much in the world. When you look and see the power of FIFA and, and the power of Formula One, like we want to the number one sports and entertainment entity in the world. Now we've expanded, we have 21 of our clubs have signed international rights in all sorts of countries. So everywhere from Ireland, Africa, you know, Brazil, uh, Spain. And so in the very, very near future, you're gonna start to see more and more international games, more and more of our clubs playing in the global arena. And of course, I I have to mention the Olympics, right? We are now in the Olympics for LA 28, which we'll see, you know, both men and women participating in our sport for the first time across the world. I

Damian Fowler: (15:46)

Read that you were, you studied to be, uh, an an ambassador.

Marissa Solis: (15:50)

I did, I did.

Damian Fowler: (15:51)

So this is an interesting, you know, turn of events for you.

Marissa Solis: (15:54)

It is, um, it's very ironic in very much a way. I feel like an, I'm an ambassador to the fan base and different communities. So it's been fun. Yeah,

Damian Fowler: (16:03)

I mean the NFL in a way it's a state unto itself.

Marissa Solis: (16:06)

You could say that. Yes, .

Ilyse Liffreing: (16:07)

Now the NFL is arguably the most sought after brand to partner and align advertising with, but it's also very seasonal. So how do you maintain engagement and relevance in the off season?

Marissa Solis: (16:18)

You know, it's funny you say that. It's absolutely not seasonal. We are 365 year round. I actually saw that come to life this year. We just got statistics back during the quote unquote off season in the month of June. We had over 200 million hours of content consumed. We were, I think the third league. And that's without any games or anything like that. So I think annually the stat is we're 45% of the sports conversation and only 2% of the games played in the us. That's a US number. And it's incredible, right? Because in the off season people are talking about the free agents who's gonna sign on what team, and then you get content like the quarterback series on Netflix. And now we've got partnerships with like, we have a partnership with Skydance to create stories and movies. Then you come have back together Saturday and training camps and then you have the preseason. So there actually really isn't an an off season anymore. I'm

Ilyse Liffreing: (17:18)

Sure that's changing with streaming too. 'cause you can just go

Marissa Solis: (17:21)

On content. Content is king, right? Content everywhere.

Ilyse Liffreing: (17:58)

One final question. In your view, what does the NFL look like in 2030?

Marissa Solis: (18:05)

I mean, I think, you know, the vision is that we are the pinnacle of entertainment around the world. And so that means amazing live sports, unpredictable seasons, right? Just like we have today. The game played in every country, and not just professionally on tv, but every country participating in the game of flag football, more Olympics, Netflix, or in the movie theaters, or much more storytelling around the incredible stories that this league represents. More diversity in the game, more diversity in the front office, in the coaching staff. So all, all good things, hopefully lots of impact.

Damian Fowler: (18:49)

And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be taking a break next week to celebrate Thanksgiving here in the us. But we'll be back at the end of the month with our guest, Jonathan Stringfield, the VP of Global Research and Marketing at Activision Blizzard

Jonathan Stringfield:

Gaming is increasingly going to be a hobby that is divorced from gaming devices virtually anywhere that there is a screen that's smart, there's probably gonna be an opportunity to play a game. 

Ilyse Liffreing: (19:02)

And if you love this podcast, be sure to subscribe and leave a review While you're at it. Check out our other show, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's happening in the world of digital media. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by Loving Caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.

Damian Fowler: (19:31)

And remember,

Marissa Solis: (19:32)

We aren't just about the game. We transcend the game. We're such a big platform. We wanna make an impact to communities everywhere.

Damian Fowler: (19:39)

I'm Damian

Ilyse Liffreing: (19:40)

And I'm Ilyse.

Damian Fowler: (19:41)

And we'll see you next time.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Zillow’s Beverly Jackson on simplifying the housebuying process through its marketing, and why working at the company has special importance for her as a Black woman.

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian: (00:01)

I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse: (00:02)

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

Damian: (00:04)

And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Ilyse: (00:10)

This week we sit down with Beverly Jackson, the VP of Brand and Product Marketing at Real Estate Company Zillow with

Damian: (00:17)

Over 212 million average monthly users is the country's number one real estate app and a website. In fact, Zillow is becoming a housing super app designed to help people find the home of their dreams.

Ilyse: (00:31)

Beverly is an award-winning marketer with two decades of experience managing global campaign for companies, including the Recording Academy where she delivered record breaking social engagement for the 54th Grammy Awards, Yahoo, MGM Resorts International and at Twitter before it became X.

Damian: (00:50)

We started by asking her about this impressive career journey

Beverly: (00:58)

As I still like to think that I am always sort of new and fresh faced to digital marketing 'cause I tend to be a digital first storyteller and a digital first brand person. I always think about two things. What is the brand looking to achieve and how are we thinking about growing? And then I think about how does that connect to culture? And so whether it was the Grammys or Yahoo or MG M resource as a hospitality brand or a sports betting band or something like Twitter, it's always about what is the connection to the customer? Is it digital first? How does it play in transforming or growing the brand or the business or its role or impact. Share a voice, share a wallet in the industry vertical. And then the connection to culture. I think it's very important how a brand connects to its customers through culture is such a powerful way to tell brand stories. That was important for all the work that I've done previous and it's certainly the way I think about my role here at Zillow.

Ilyse: (01:58)

Would you say that was basically the opportunity that Zillow kind of created for you that was so compelling on your end?

Beverly: (02:06)

The idea that Zillow helps consumers more and more consumers get home and that's what we're sort of working towards. There's not a, not a bigger brand moment in a consumer's life than sort of helping them to figure out what home means. 'cause it's such a personal experience and, and with Zillow sort of being the destination for the real estate industry, it's a beacon for all consumers. And it's sort of getting them from that idea of like idea dreaming about what home they want to actually getting into a home. So the brand is transforming, it's culturally relevant, it's significant to a specific population and to others it makes so much sense to me. So like when we think about like millennial, the millennial consumers, it was not an opportunity that I could easily ignore or walk away from.

Damian: (02:52)

Now Beverly, I wanna ask you, you know, buying a home has always kind of been a complex process. To what extent would you say that the tech has speeded things up or maybe simplified that whole process?

Beverly: (03:02)

The idea is that buying a house, especially your first house is gnarly. Like it's so intense, it's so intense, it's so many moving parts, it's so confusing. But then we have this large generation of sort of digital first consumers that expect consumer tech to be a utility. The tech has to be easy and it has to demystify the complicated process. It has to serve the customer's needs to their ultimate goal, but it has to meet them where they are. Zillow as a consumer tech company, as a financial tech company, as a real estate company is making it easier, which is why we're so well situated for this idea of a housing super app where a consumer, regardless of where they are in the process, can come into the Zillow ecosystem and find a way to answer the questions that they need and help guide themselves through the process. 'cause the goal is not just to help them search for a great home or to talk to real estate agents before they find the perfect agent for them, but you've gotta tour a lot of houses. The housing super app concept in addition to financing and figuring out what you can afford and then financing it and then closing the deal, signing all the papers and actually getting into your home. Zillow is ideally situated to do that.

Damian: (04:22)

Just to break that down a little bit further, you know there are other property search engines out there, but Zillow goes above and beyond that. What is the differentiating factor at Zillow? And you mentioned some of those just now

Beverly: (04:34)

Customers are a north star without question. So the idea of customers being the driving force behind what we do and how we serve information back to them, meeting them where they are, offering them real tangible tools, techniques, information and solutions that meet their needs. And then also our partners having access to some of the best real estate agents in the business. The people who are the best of Zillow.

Ilyse: (05:02)

Now, how would you say like home buying reflects what's going on overall in society? I know right now for instance, interest rates are really high. It's, it's pretty expensive to buy a home. The data must, you know, really tell a story of what's going on overall in the US and around the world. How does Zillow tap into basically that culture too of like home buying?

Beverly: (05:24)

I think for me, this goes back to sort of the origins of Zillow. What Rich Barton our founder wanted to do was make sure that information was available to everyone. That there was transparency in how the listings were available, who could see them, how, how much a house was being sold for or how much a house was worth. Using transparency and information and access to information to empower consumers to help them better understand what we're doing and to help actually create a seamless, frictionless system for them to get home. I think that's the magic combination that is important to consumers. Whether interest rates are 2.2% or whether they're 8%, unfortunately

Ilyse: (06:12)

Now with all that going on is now the right time to buy?

Beverly: (06:17)

I think now is the right time for the right consumers. We have so many economists and data scientists on staff and they're always looking to monitor the markets to understand what product offerings are right and get that information back out to our customers so that customers are empowered and they can decide for themselves. And then when you partner them with a great agent and you can help get them the best financing for their situations, it becomes more likely that more people will find it the right time for them.

Damian: (06:52)

I'm curious, you know, there must be some interesting insights into what people want, you know, weird homes, homes with bowling alleys, I think you've talked about. Could you talk a little bit about what the data tells you and why it's fundamental in a way to the way you market? Zillow,

Beverly: (07:07)

Our latest consumer housing trends report shows that half of the buyers are doing it for the very first time. They need lots of information. And so it's about creating product and information for them. But we also know that the median home buyer in the US are partnered or married. They have at least some college education and they're most likely to buy a home in the southern part of the United States. So making sure that we have the right information and the right tools for those consumers wildly important. But we also know that half of those people have kids under the age, age of 18 and most of them are under the age of five, which means that they need room for those families. And so we have a sense of like the kinds of homes that are going to come up in their search and creating personalized options and search options for them is important. There are no homes with bowling alleys in New York currently on the site that I'm aware of, you know, , but, but I think that there are some bowling alley homes out there.

Damian: (08:10)

You mentioned your brand campaign. Could you talk about the concept behind the latest one?

Beverly: (08:16)

It was really a lot of fun for the team at Zillow to lean into this idea that Zillow is a verb and that people are always Zillow and they're on the spot. I mean people spend, I think it's close to like 40 minutes on the app and on the website dreaming and being aspirational. And so the idea was how could we in a fun way, in a disruptive manner, use culture and culturally significant moment to connect people to their dreams and help it become a reality. And so the campaign spends a lot of time of breaking through barriers and noise for consumers about, they're not alone. It's super complicated, it's a complex experience, but Zillow can actually help you do all of these things that you need. And what you can count on us for is finding a weird home with a bowling alley or a wall of uh, , a fish tank and a wall.

Beverly: (09:14)

But it's also that you're gonna need to figure out what you can afford. You're gonna need to get pre-qualified. You're gonna need to get approved. You need to be able to, on your schedule, find an opportunity to tour the home, um, without having to talk to 15 people when you wanna be able to do it, when you wanna be able to do it. And so bringing that all together and that was making this a digital first storytelling experience and that's how the campaign came to life. Like there's lots of big iconic, thoughtful moments about changing the way consumers think about the concept of Zillow, but also presenting them with a suite of end-to-end solutions. Breaking that up and making it accessible to them. And then I think the piece that I'm super excited about that I was most excited about, about the campaign is how we're showing up in culture in unexpected places. And whether it's the NBA finals or in a movie premiere or through partnerships or your favorite podcast, but it's going where our customers are and having a conversation with them in a way that's meaningful to them. But it breaks through and it sort of disrupts the expectations of who we are and what they want from us.

Damian: (10:32)

I wanted to ask you off the back of that, you know, about the channels that you're exploring. 'cause clearly, you know, the customers are everywhere from connected TV to social media, to retail media even. So how do you think about those channels as a marketer? And a second part of that is, you know, who are you reaching? Who is your target audience?

Beverly: (10:52)

This campaign was really targeted at first time home buyers, right? And for them we think about that as a very millennial centric audience. And so we know that millennials are multicultural. We know that they're rooted in purpose. We know that they're mobile, so we know lots of things about millennials. We want it to be in places where those consumers were, right. And so we thought about connected television, we thought about uh, podcasts, we thought about movie premieres, we thought about sports as culture drivers and music as culture drivers. The other thing that's important to this as a concept is not just being national, but being local. I think people were super surprised to see us show up in a big way in a lot of our important local markets. Because remember, home buying and the real estate market is a national concept, right? And technology makes it accessible to everyone, which is Rich's first sort of democratizing information and making it accessible to everyone.

Beverly: (11:50)

But buying a home is a neighborhood experience. It's a local experience. People move street to street, neighborhood to neighborhood from one dog park to one school district to another. And that's very much a local experience. And so having the content and the creative and the storytelling go from top of funnel awareness to transaction and conversion at the bottom of funnel, and then having it go from national to local to neighborhood where your agent who knows the most about your community can help get you home. That was a really unexpected part of the campaign, I think for most people to see Zillow show up.

Damian: (12:30)

I also wanted to ask you, as you look across the United States, is there a prime buying season for real estate? And the reason I ask that is because I was looking around the Tri-state area and people were saying, oh, all the houses come on the market in May because people wanna move out of the area once their kids graduate high school and suddenly there's a surge of houses on the market. I wanted to find out if this is anecdotal or whether this is a reality, you know, in other words, , is there a moment in the year when real estate kind of booms?

Beverly: (13:02)

I think it's not completely anecdotal. There are definitely buying seasons. Um, no one, I'm from Chicago originally. No one wants to move in December. I think. Um, it's the idea of, uh, being in a walkup and having to carry down, uh, a very heavy dresser or an awkward sofa seems, um, not ideal. And if you live in Phoenix, you probably don't wanna move when it's 120 degrees, but people move when it's appropriate for their lives. There is definitely a buying season. And that's why for us, this campaign work that we're doing was so important. That's why it's really important that this work be bold, that it stand out, that it interrupt, that it disrupt so that people see it and know that Zillow is there to help them. And so we've, we've taken every step that we can take to make the cyclical nature of home buying as easy as possible.

Ilyse: (13:57)

Now let's end by putting, uh, this spotlight back on you a little bit. Um, you put purpose at the center of everything you do. Um, how does this role basically align with your values?

Beverly: (14:09)

The idea and the very promise of Zillow as a brand to help get more and more consumers home resonated with me at a very deep and meaningful level. Like we do great work, we have access to great data. We're a leading iconic bespoke brand. But as a woman of color and for someone who knows the importance and the significance of home ownership as a way to create generational wealth, as a place to feel safe, as a place to build something significant and rewarding for your life, you want that to be free of discrimination. You wanna have access to the homes that best meet your needs. That's in the core of who Zillow is. It's in their DNA. And so for me it was so personally significant and in addition to that, it was really important for me to want to be a part of evolving this brand.

Beverly: (15:04)

And I couldn't be more honored and more humbled by the opportunity to lead this brand and to lean into our brand promise. I love the idea of using consumer tech to help make it easy for people. I'm excited about the role that evolving Tech will help. The idea of building a housing Super app and creating an end-to-end connected experience for consumers that need access to information, couldn't be more excited to be a part of that. Um, it is the honor of a lifetime, quite frankly, for somebody like me who lives in a purpose-based marketing environment.

Damian: (15:43)

And that's it for the current podcast. Stay tuned because next time we'll be speaking with Marissa Solis, the SVP of Global and Consumer Marketing for the NFL.

Ilyse: (15:53)

It's a really good lesson for marketers. Culture happens at the speed of light and you just have to be ready. You know, we like to say or think we create culture, but culture is organic and embedded. Culture just happens and we just happen to be ready at the moment. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. And the current team includes Chris Leyer and Catie. And remember,

Beverly: (16:20)

It's going where our customers are and having a conversation with them in a way that's meaningful to them. But it breaks through and it sort of disrupts the expectations of who we are and what they want from us.

Damian: (16:35)

I'm Damien and

Ilyse: (16:37)

I'm my lease. And

Damian: (16:38)

We'll see you soon.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

VML CEO Jon Cook on how the agency came up with Wendy’s now iconic social media presence, the innovations he hopes to see in the streaming ad space and commerce on Instagram.

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Ilyse: (00:01)

I'm Ilyse Liffreing. And

Damian: (00:02)

I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse: (00:03)

And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Damian: (00:10)

This week we sit down with John Cook, the newly minted global CEO of VML.

Ilyse: (00:16)

VML is the new name for what is now one of the world's biggest creative companies. It's the result of WPPs merger of two of its creative agencies, Wunderman Thompson, and VMLY and R. The new company will employ 30,000 people in 64 markets.

Damian: (00:34)

WPP says, the merger is about simplifying business and unlocking scale for its clients, which includes blue chip companies like Colgate, Palm Olive, Dell Ford, Microsoft, Nestle, and Coca-Cola.

Ilyse: (00:45)

John Cook joined the agency back in 1996 when it only had 30 employees, which back then was just called VMLA full circle moment. He starts by telling us about the significance of the merger announced in October.

Damian: (01:00)

And one note, the first part of this podcast was recorded live at advertising week, New York. So John's audio changes a few minutes into the podcast.

Jon: (01:11)

I think it represents a reaction to, um, to several things, a reaction for holding companies like WPP to be simpler and easier to access. These are, these are two great companies within WPP, but they're two big companies. And that that can create confusion or complexity in within WPP. I think we've always simplified that well, but this takes that to the next level. This is a radical move in terms of simplicity. So I think it represents the thirst that marketers have for a simpler holding company landscape. A simpler WPP absolutely does that. It represents, I think, I think a statement about where the future of marketing is going. That a lot of people are pursuing you on one level. You've got consultants, you know, big consultancies pursuing creativity and trying, they're trying to acquire it, hire it, build it, and, and all having various levels success with that.

Jon: (01:57)

This represents a move to have the scale of some of the biggest consultancies, but with a creativity that I think a lot of them are really trying to have. We will have that right from the beginning. It represents, uh, a statement about where a lot of advertising agencies who are trying to stay relevant are going, meaning a lot of advertising are fantastic creative organizations, but they're all grappling with how do I add commerce, CRM, loyalty, technology, data. We have all that. When you put these two things together, what what I hope, and I think what we hope is that we are jumping right to that place where ad agencies and consultants are both trying to go from two different directions. We go there right now from the jump globally with, uh, two companies that already know each other really well, and it's a lot easier to say.

Damian: (02:38)

And so in, in, in effect, it's driven by the changing economics of advertising.

Jon: (02:43)

Yes, I think I I don't think it's solely driven by the change, the economics of advertising. I think there are economic advantages to being simpler. 'cause you can, you can be more efficient in, in how you deliver your, your agency. You can be, you know, and you can offer a lot. But I think it's, I think it's more driven by a fusion that marketers are looking for, not to speak for all marketers, but I think they struggle with how do I get brand storytelling and the the stories I wanna tell my by brand? How do I get that closer and closer to my product, the customer experience? And if I've got that right as a marketer, how do I then put that closer to the way people buy my product or transact or make a commitment to me as a brand? We're not perfect, and it won't be perfect right off the bat, but we have a really good chance to be the agency that can unite brand experience, customer experience, and commerce. Those three things aren't in our ingredients because they're fun or because we like those words, they're in our ingredients because that's the trilogy that marketers are looking for to, this is the absolute answer. For some people

Damian: (03:41)

May be a little bit

Jon: (03:42)

Sad about saying

Damian: (03:43)

Goodbye to some of those famous, famous names.

Jon: (03:45)

Like,

Damian: (03:46)

Why

Jon: (03:46)

And not

Damian: (03:46)

What, what do you say to those people?

Jon: (03:48)

I'm obviously in the camp of believing that evolution and simplicity is necessary to, to, to kind of go forward, but I have a ton of, um, respect and empathy for the fact. There's a lot of, uh, big brands that have built this to this place that we, that we are in now. And I think all you can do as a leader is just do two things. You can respect the heritage. It's not just heritage for heritage sake, heritage of capability. There is greatness in all those companies. It still exists in each of those companies in the, in the new company. As much as we're gonna respect that heritage and, and, and use all those ingredients to build our capability, at some point we have to make it about the future. So it's about informing the future with, with all that heritage. So it's, it's not just heritage for heritage sake, it's heritage to inform a, a future. And that's a responsibility we have to, um, you know, you know, in any company, but certainly an agency, you're trying to create a future for people to do what they want to do, and you have to make decisions about what gives you the best chance to do that and do that powerfully. And this does that.

Ilyse: (04:47)

Now, we, as both previous journalism majors find this really interesting that you actually started your career as a journalism major at the University of Missouri in 1993. In 2018, you delivered even the commencement address at the School of Graduation Ceremony. So I'd love to know what words of wisdom you shared about like what journalism really meant to you and maybe how it has even like shaped you as a marketer. Uh,

Jon: (05:14)

I had worked at Disney World for a while, and I remember some of, some of the advice I gave was, you know, you're, you're journalists and it's all about facts and, and, um, you know, this story, but it said, never lose in, in all the story and all the facts. You know, never lose the ability to add some pixie dust to things. Uh, especially those of you who are going into strategic communications. The meaning that, you know, we should be the exciting part of someone's day and, and the, and never lose the idea of what Disney World does, which is they exceed these already crazy high expectations. And what can you do in your career to bring your own pixie dust to every situation? So any interaction with you or your brand has that pixie dust. And I think journalism today, it's, it's even more critical to have a little bit of a brand and to have a, an expectation that a journalist has a, has a point of view and has a brand and, and, uh, like it or not. That's, that's, that's critical.

Ilyse: (06:02)

Beyond that, do you have like a guiding like set of principles that you adhere to maybe even keeps you up at night?

Jon: (06:11)

It's pretty easy, which is just show up and follow up. It's served me well. The gravity of how you show up and how you follow up changes through the years. But it, in your early in your career, it might just be, Hey, be at meetings, be present, be in the office and follow up. Be the one who you people count on to when you're in a meeting, something happens as you become the, you know, like ACEO of a company. Your show up is more than just being there. Your show up is presence and, and bringing gravitas and bringing trust to a situation, you know, and I think we all can use the positions we have to, to show up and follow up at different levels, but show up and follow up and just keep that advice going.

Damian: (06:45)

What's interesting about your role as a, as a creative person is that interactivity, and you mentioned you were with the world's biggest brands, including Coca-Cola, Colgate Palm, olive Ford, Microsoft, the US Navy even, and, and Wendy's, you know, can you tell us a little bit more about what makes for a winning brand campaign? You know, obviously that pixie dust is, is part of it,

Jon: (07:07)

This will sound cliche, but finding that cultural resonance, the cultural relevance, the cultural interaction point that that makes a campaign go from being an announcement or a set of awareness to something that someone can participate in. And I don't just mean content co-creation, but I mean something that enters, enters people's lives and, and becomes part of them and or makes them feel something and take an action. Wendy's is a, is a long time great client, we've worked for 'em for 10 years and Wendy's was always kind of an old fashioned, maybe your grandfather or grandmother's brand, and we said, let's give Wendy a voice. Let's give her some sass invented this idea of, of how much sass Wendy would have, would be different by medium and by channel, but she would always be a little sassy to the point where then online when and on social media, Wendy would start to, to roast people.

Jon: (07:52)

Meaning kind of take take aim at somebody and not in a, not in a mean hearted way, but this idea of roasting someone. I say all that to say that it became as elaborate as we invented a, a national roast day holiday where then now every brand or a lot of brands around the world then on that day write Wendy and say, roast me. You know, so it might be Aflac saying, Hey, Wendy's roast me, and then Wendy, our, our Twitter will come back with a picture of a, you know, a cooked duck to add to that, that we are, Wendy's is a person, Wendy's is a, there's a name in the name. So we would be remiss not to have some personality, and then we'd be double remiss not to have personality that had some zing to it. So then you establish, okay, here's a place that can be believable. And I think it was also kind of a position that allowed Wendy's to be ageless. You don't know if Wendy's what age she is really, and we could, we could attach a personality that could kind of flex be a little more, a little more SaaS on Twitter, a little friendlier Wendy on Pinterest and everything in between. And it gave us a lot of flexibility. So yeah, it was, it was coming, there was an opportunity space in the market and we just totally filled it and we stayed with it for a decade.

Damian: (08:55)

How do you sort of like know when you've got your finger on something, how do you stay there? How do you stay relevant? How do you keep up with what's going on in the culture?

Jon: (09:05)

Oftentimes there's a, there's an interaction with a brand that's unintended or emerges organically. The more brave or the more aware brands are, are tapping into that. You see some of the work for Ford right now in the US is all about being from America and doubling down on America, but the level of volume that they were seeing online, the level of volume they're seeing and the passion out there, that's, that's something we need to not just respond to in social, but but double down into. And I think it's a good example of listening and, and, and kind of taking the cue from the way people are interacting with a brand.

Ilyse: (09:36)

Um, and obviously you've been in this career for like three decades now. To what extent has the nature of digital media changed anything for, for instance, I know creativity is definitely still premium, but there's such a different cadence to the ad calendar these days. Um, could you talk a little bit about that?

Jon: (09:56)

Spending time with a brand, entertaining yourself, educating yourself and shopping have all come together into one paradigm for each of us, no matter how the platforms evolve? That's what's the most exciting thing to me. And it's, it's actually how we're trying to build the agency. Because if you think about your own behavior, let's just take Instagram for example. You're, you know, you're, you're going to Instagram probably to entertain yourself. You end up buying something whether you need it or not. You're, you're gonna buy something you've educated your best self about a brand you didn't know. And you've gone deep on a whole new cultural thing that came into your life. You just went there to, to kind of kill time. And I think 20 years ago, my advertising moments were my ad moments, my shopping was my shopping. And I just love, I mean I I I'm sure you both experience this, it's, it's all coming together.

Ilyse: (10:36)

Why is following consumer behavior in this way connected to building a relevant agency? I know your tagline is all about like connected brands.

Jon: (10:46)

If you follow that trend, the idea of those things converging, you would build your agency completely different. And so a couple years ago we invested heavily in something that's not in a lot of ad agencies. This is just one example, but deep, deep global commerce and shopping capabilities. And so I, I hope we're doing it the right way, but that investment in an agency, an ad agency is uncommon. The reason we did it is the answer to your question, which was, if the way we're telling a brand story or inviting people to experience a brand is gonna quickly meet the ability, if we do our job on that, we're gonna have somebody wanting to make a commitment to that brand by buying something, joining something subscribing to something. And it's amazing, it took this long for people to realize that if you do a good enough job in your brand communications, you're going to have somebody who wants to, to take an action. So as agencies, I think we should be building in that, that capability. Other agencies may look at a different way, but if it's a quest for relevance, I don't think you can be a relevant agency without the ability to both tell the story and then complete the task of of, of being able to transact.

Ilyse: (11:48)

What about when it comes to like, streaming and like connected tv? How are you guys looking at that channel?

Jon: (11:54)

One way that we're really hoping happens is that those channels get way more advanced than they are right now about the way that advertising could be present. So Netflix, you know, would, would now sell a, an advertising model where you can pay a premium amount of money to have advertisement as the advertising agency or the story creators. Where I think we're lacking and we would like to see the biggest progress there is being way more creative with the formats you're able to to, to do. So I, I'm hoping as streamers get more and more into advertising, they're not just plopping 32nd TV formats on the front of, you know, a show you might watch on Netflix or just interrupting it four times throughout the hour for 62nd TV spots. There will be a huge miss. I do think a lot of 'em are going that direction first because it's just the nature of what's easy and convenient. But there will be a streaming platform that will break that up and allow brands to tell stories in a unique way and, and create entertainment on their platforms that lives next to that will be the, the platform that I will love. And that's what we're keeping our eye out for.

Ilyse: (12:52)

What about, um, when it comes to like shoppable ad formats on streaming, do you feel like there's a future there? I know it's kind of seems to be gaining some speed.

Jon: (13:01)

I was watching Billions the other day of shows, you know, I dunno if you watch billions or not, but you can actually go in and then see everything. 'cause you know, you liked that show for the, the glamor of all the, the clothes and the, you know, the, the cool settings and then you can kind of go in and see what everything costs that particular character and you're not able to then go buy it yet, but that next step would be able to go buy it or find out. And a lot of the stuff on there is pretty dreamy in terms of price, but as you could do that for things that pro that cost any amount and actually go see what everybody's wearing, this, this exists, it's just not mainstream yet. But I I love that idea. I think it's to where you're, where you're taking that question. I love the, the future there.

Damian: (13:36)

I'm wondering if there are any themes in advertising that sort of are changing with the culture and the digital culture too. I mean, we've had an important shift, you know, recently with brands marketing with Purpose. I'm kind of very interested in that relationship, you know, the underlying zeitgeist in a way and how that finds its way into ads. Is there anything that you've noticed that we could, we could put our finger on and say that's very now

Jon: (13:59)

Advertising agencies or brands? The word storyteller gets thrown out really liberally, you know, like it's, it's such a sexy word and it sounds really cool, but often I look at the work of our industry and including our own agency sometimes, and you're not really telling stories sometimes we're not living up to the sexiness of that word. The better brands are starting to, to truly tell story. I mean literally tell stories by creating content and creating entertainment and creating that right balance between, um, being entertained and, and getting across brand principles. And when you do that, you create something entertaining enough to hold a consumer's attention, then you've kind of earned the right to be as purposeful as you're, as you're describing the trend, you almost have to earn your right as a brand to talk about your purpose by creating a, a forum of something gripping and entertaining or, or compelling to then put that purpose through. Because I think purpose without that comes off a little preachy, uh, a little self-serving or a lot self-serving.

Damian: (14:55)

I I saw a new Kantar study recently that highlighted the importance of humor in advertising and said that after several years of super serious heartfelt purpose-driven ads, humor is making sort of welcome return. How and wise humor such an important brand building tool.

Jon: (15:09)

I mean, candidly, I, I, first of all, I miss humor. I think that notion is correct. I don't think it's coming back fast enough though. I think the, the industry advertising industry has so many award shows and so many award platforms, and I, I love that it's a chance to get your work out there, creates great work, creates great community, creates great awareness of the great work that agencies are doing. But some of it has gotten a little bit to the point where the best way to grip a, a jury or to grip somebody judging work is to do something that makes you cry or that makes you feel, uh, like you're saving the world. And so the work tends to go that way. It's really powerful, but that just, it just doesn't lend itself to any humor. It's the, the everybody taking themselves so seriously trying to create work that, that saves the world. I'm all for saving the world, but can we have some fun while we're talking about that? And I think, I think award shows in general, I'm not, not talking about anyone in particular need to do a better job of rewarding humor.

Ilyse: (16:05)

In 2022, you had a near death experience and as you told Adweek, you called it a story of either angels or coincidences. Can you tell us what happened and how it changed you?

Jon: (16:20)

Really healthy heart, really healthy, um, generally speaking and was running one night and, and basically died for eight or nine minutes without a pulse, uh, because of, um, a real freak show arrhythmia that I'd had for two weeks without knowing it. Just real, nothing hereditary or genetic about me. Just an odd thing, a very rare thing that happens to me. I was running at seven 30 at night on the street where there's not many people, but that particular moment, um, among other people, a uh, cardio doctor drove by. Like, like I told Adweek in that story you're talking about, if you had to write up who would drive by when you were dead with a heart thing, who would you want to drive by? Literally the exact description of who I'd want was this, um, cardio doctor who was, by the way, was coming home two hours early that particular night to see his brother who was in town and happened to be driving by still in his scrubs.

Jon: (17:09)

It's, it's just awesome that he, that he did that. The coincidence or the angel thing, somewhere in between all that was this guy stopping and not only, not only stopping somebody who stopped and used the skills that they possess, because what I've learned since it's one thing to know CPR, but there's a whole other level of then the bravery that it takes to notice somebody down to go use that CPR you've probably actually never used in your entire life. Put your hands on somebody's chest, crush their sternum, put your mouth on their mouth. It all sounds really good in the textbook. It all sounds good in the class, but somebody actually has to go do that. And then because somebody did that, you know, I'm still here.

Ilyse: (17:44)

How would you say though, that it has like, changed your life since that incident?

Jon: (17:49)

If you think about any friendship family member you have, if you just stop right now and thought, what was my last interaction with all them, you know, would it, would it be the right place with every relationship that was important to you? It's probably not, it's probably a fight with this person, probably a, a Matt experience with this person. Probably maybe a, I love you to, to this person, but it would be a mixed bag. Not to be too dramatic, but it really makes you think, man, what if I did die right there that, you know, and my daughter, my third daughter hadn't seen her in two months, or one of my daughters I saw the week before and had the best weekend we've ever had, you know, and everything in between makes me really think every now and I do take a quick inventory about where I am with every relationship and, you know, may maybe it forces you to say something that you wouldn't normally say in a good way or appreciate somebody a little bit more. I have determined it's way more fun to be alive than dead. That's my other takeaway, .

Ilyse: (18:37)

And that's it for the current podcast. Stay tuned because next time we'll be speaking with Beverly Jackson, the VP of Brand and product marketing at Zillow,

Speaker 4: (18:48)

Going where our customers are and having a conversation with them in a way that's meaningful to them breaks through and it sort of disrupts the expectations of who we are and what they want from us. The current

Damian: (19:02)

Podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by loving caliber. And the current podcast team includes Chris Brookley and Kat Vessey.

Ilyse: (19:09)

And remember,

Jon: (19:10)

Never lose in, in all the story and all the facts, you know, never lose the ability to add some pixie dust.

Ilyse: (19:16)

I'm Ilyse. And

Damian: (19:17)

I'm Damian and

Ilyse: (19:18)

We'll see you next time.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Francesca’s VP of marketing Traci Graziani shares what she thinks the future of retail will be, Taylor Swift and Beyoncé’s effect on sales, and how a Dolly Parton quote influences her perspective.

 

Episode Transcript Francesca's, Traci Graziani 

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian Fowler: (00:01)

I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse Liffreing: (00:02)

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing

Damian Fowler: (00:03)

And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Ilyse Liffreing: (00:10)

This week we sit down with Traci Graziani, the VP of Marketing and Brand Partnerships at Francesca's, the fashion retailer specializing in women's jewelry and apparel.

Damian Fowler: (00:21)

Founded in 1999 in Houston, Francesca has grown into a household name with stores across the U.S. But like many mall-based retailers, the company faced serious challenges during the pandemic when foot traffic stopped.

Ilyse Liffreing: (00:34)

But since 2020, the company has turned its fortunes around becoming a successful omnichannel business.

Damian Fowler: (00:41)

Tracy joined the company in 2021 after a more than 15 year career in marketing where she specialized in helping brands identify their purpose, craft their story, and deliver successful campaigns.

Traci Graziani: (00:58)

I grew up in marketing, I grew up in digital advertising and it was a, I was there with a digital marketing firm called Resource for 11 years in my career. They were an independent women owned agency who was talking about being customer obsessed before anyone else. But I started by answering the phones and getting the flowers and just like learning and absorbing. And so I just fell in love from the beginning. I, I worked with a handful of clients over the years. You name a client or an industry, I've probably worked on that account from a communications or a marketing standpoint and ultimately that's what got me brand side. 

Damian Fowler: (01:39)

I love that it's very entrepreneurial view from the very beginning, from the get go as you would say. And you know, one of your sort of specialties as a marketer is that ability to help brands identify their purpose and craft their story. What's your sort of dynamic when you start that whole process?

Traci Graziani: (01:55)

Can I quote Dolly Parton who's behind me here on the wall? 

Damian Fowler: (01:59)

Oh yes. Please.

Ilyse Liffreing:

Yes you can.

Traci Graziani: (01:59)

Okay. She says Find out who you are and do it on purpose. And I believe that as a human and I believe that as a marketer. And so I think that's really what's carried me through and I think that one of my biggest beliefs is that one of the key KPIs that we all need to be looking at and continue to look at is trust. I mean I think it is more prevalent now than ever is trust with our customer in every interaction. Knowing that why and knowing that trust is so critical. Without it you have nothing that becomes your compass. 

Damian Fowler: (02:33)

Yeah. Now, you joined Francesca's in 2021, you know, let me ask you about their story. What is Francesca's story? Yeah,

Traci Graziani: (02:42)

Francesca's actually started as one single boutique in Houston, Texas. And our girl Fran has been around since 1999. I think what's really neat and differentiating about it is that it has always been a place of discovery in this one boutique. It started as a collection of different, you know, products that service a very, you know, woman from 18 to 30 as like the core demographic and someone who's always looking for that like kind of something special. We know that we have an occasion shopper and so we cater to that and so that heritage of the brand from the late nineties all the way through has maintained and that is really the platform that we operate now that has turned into our free to Be You platform, which is this idea that our customer and our brand are always looking to discover new things. I mean, Elise, you love the store you go in, you kind of can't walk outta there without something. Um, but you never know what you're gonna find and I think that that has really been a core differentiator for the brand.

Ilyse Liffreing: (03:44)

Yeah, I mean there's no doubt I fall into that core consumer that 18 to 35, not gonna say my exact age, but yeah, every time I go home, you know, I, I have to go to Francesca's, definitely a fan. It's true, I can't hide that. But can you share any like insights into your target audience? Beyond me of course and how the brand actually like works to like reach and engage them?

Traci Graziani: (04:08)

We recently, within the last year, really did our homework and we surveyed current customers, non-customers and we have really utilized that in a massive way across the organization because I think a differentiator for us too is our ability to move so quickly with our product. And so being able to understand what the customer is looking for and what she's doing in her life, we really look at it as a psychographic more so even than a demographic. We know the sweet spot in terms of the 24 year old, but we know we scaled down our earrings are a great entryway into the brand and we know our gift selection also allows us to scale up in demo. I keep mentioning occasion because it matters, but she's finding small things to be occasion, whether it's you know, a barbecue or a trip or even just going to a friend's house. She's always looking for like that something special and new. And so we really create our marketing and our product to make sure that we're serving that across the year

Ilyse Liffreing: (05:05)

Now. So Francesca's also has a real culture of inclusivity. You guys have the whole Free To Be You campaign. When did that come about and was it under CEO Andrew Clark?

Traci Graziani: (05:16)

Yes, it was, you know, when he joined I, I joined pretty shortly after that and we really were working as a full leadership team on defining, you know, our mission vision values and developing that brand house and what was that greater why and we really did come to that purpose of inspiring Discovery and through that uniting everyone in individuality which comes across in our boutiques in the merchandise assortment that we have, the way that we buy. And I think that that whole idea of Free to Be You, he is definitely a champion for, and I think that has really set us apart in the space. Francesca's also actually means free one the word the name defined. And so there was something core back to that history of who the brand was and where they started that really felt synergistic across everything we're, I think it's 97% of the organization is women and the bulk of that is the field who is our customer and they are just incredible. And so they're another great place in terms of how we define free to be you listening to them, what's happening in their local markets and really utilizing the field and those great associates as a whole nother way to gather customer insights.

Ilyse Liffreing: (06:32)

That comes with like a lot of learnings. As you mentioned, you've recently even launched a tween collection called Frankie. How is that perceived by the Francesca's audience

Traci Graziani: (06:42)

That brand was conceived just a couple years ago and really as an opportunity in a white space in the market? I ironically when Justice sold to Walmart and I actually came from Justice as my previous role and so you know, we had a lot of great leadership on the team that was familiar with that demographic and knowing that that tween demo is shopper is just shy of our Francesca's shopper. So we really saw the opportunity to utilize what we have, right? The customer told us that we needed to shift, that they needed something unique for themselves, that they wanted a little bit more comfortable and cool. And so we have pivoted and it's really exciting. We've just rebranded and launched as Hello Frankie and really excited to create that conversation and that dialogue with the customer.

Ilyse Liffreing: (07:28)

How does Francesca's leverage those customer data and insights to then enhance its campaigns? From what I hear, it's pretty quick turnarounds.

Traci Graziani: (07:38)

First. I think listening to the customer reading and reacting to the product that's working and product that's not too right and testing and learning is a big philosophy. This idea of speed and how quickly can we react? Like a lot of other retailers, we saw the Taylor Swift effect happening very quickly, literally everywhere she was traveling, the weeks leading up to that concert we would see a lift in sales in our boutiques. The same actually happened with Beyonce. And so the team was able to pivot really quickly, pull together what we called the B edit. We did that from pulling together a host of existing items but also chasing into product. And then the other is in just marketing, right? Like our Fran Club that is has been a wealth of data for us, increasing the lifetime value of those customers. They shop more often when they buy, they buy more. That is a new program, newer program for the brand that really has been instrumental in, you know, helping us even understand where we show up in the media and marketing space in terms of those are the best customers and we want more of 'em. 

Damian Fowler: (08:44)

Tell me a little bit more about the Fran Club. When did you create that? And I mean I know a lot of retailers have loyalty programs, but what's the sort of unique spin on that loyalty program with the Fran Club.

Traci Graziani: (08:55)

We knew we needed the program, right? We needed the first party data, we needed to make sure that we were capturing that, you know, we have 460 boutiques across the nation and the ability to capture that information, be able to reward our customers and really increase their visits and their purchase through that communication was key. So that has been tremendous. It's a points program so the more you shop, the more you're rewarded. But there's, you know, other perks like early access being the first to know about things like the B edit . After we had those first learnings in the early fall holiday season, you know, we knew we needed to come back around and expand that program, right? We needed to create more awareness around that program. It was giving us the signs and performing in terms of financial and feedback that was so positive.

Traci Graziani: (09:41)

So we actually launched a campaign via CTV, uh, campaign as the hero kind of tent pole piece. And what we did is the campaign was about joining the Fran club and being whoever you are, right, free to be you is this idea of exclusive but inclusive. And so what we did is we actually had a party, we threw a Fran Club event on a rooftop in one of our best markets in Miami and we invited Fran Club members and creators and so we were rewarding them through in real life, but then we actually filmed it and turned that into the spot that then really showcases and plays back, this is the customer and we, we want you to come like be part of this club. And that campaign was incredibly successful and we actually have another friend club event coming up in Austin in a new store in a few weeks. So,

Ilyse Liffreing: (10:29)

And am I wrong in thinking that that was your first time leveraging CTV?

Traci Graziani: (10:34)

We had done a test um, once before, but not to the scale that we did for the spring.

Ilyse Liffreing: (10:39)

Is that channel also strategic due to the fact that Francesca's has a lot of locations sprinkled across the U.S.?

Traci Graziani: (10:48)

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, driving store traffic is a huge lever for our business. We need to do that and we have to do that in creative ways. And so CTV is certainly one of those more top funnel, but that is fueling both boutique traffic as well as digital.

Damian Fowler: (11:03)

What I'm sort of hearing from you a little bit is, you know, there's a very democratic process here to this sort of circuit as it were of marketing. It's not like you are coming up with these big campaigns. It's like you're using your customer's insights and sharing everything back and it is a sort of virtuous circle or virtuous cycle of kind of marketing that that's interesting.

Traci Graziani: (11:24)

I love that you gathered that from that. Yeah, I think that's where it's going. That's what we're seeing. I mean I think as marketers it's like the hardest job, right? I mean it's always changing. I think if we think we know something , um, we should guess again and stay curious and learn. And I do think that the world today with digital and social allows us to do that. As long as we are going back to who we are and the trust and that we're building that trust with our customer, I, I want them in the conversation. Without the customer we're nothing. And so how we can work with them, pull them into the campaigns, get the feedback, showcase their content, that's where I think we're seeing success and I hope we can build more of that.

Ilyse Liffreing: (12:08)

Speaking of fandom, you also have a pretty unique ambassador program. Could you explain how that works a little bit?

Traci Graziani: (12:15)

Again, back to our best customer, it's a longer term relationship with more micro creators. It's this idea of, I can't claim this quote, but I leverage it a lot, the riches in the niches. And I really believe that, I think that's where fandom starts is in these unique communities. And if you can tap into those audiences and then find more, that's where you win. And that's really what the ambassador program has done for us. It started with about 30 creators and you know, it is more of a white glove where we're really creating direct one-on-one relationships with them, understanding what's going on in their life, if, if they have a bridal shower or whatnot, right? How are we there for them? And then they're creating content with us and for us and then we're sharing that back and celebrating that relationship. We have seen fantastic results. That program and the content that they're creating and posting on their own channels is certainly delivering. And so we are on the move to expand that program in some exciting new ways through some affiliate and different models. So

Ilyse Liffreing: (13:16)

You also lean into your employees for that program? 

Traci Graziani: (13:20)

We do. Like I mentioned, our field is, is our customer. And so the more we listen to them, they're amazing. They're already doing it. They're already loving the brand and they should be rewarded for that. They're some of our best loyal customers as well. So

Damian Fowler: (13:33)

You mentioned at the very beginning the importance of trust around a brand. And one of the issues that comes up in the, in the world of digital media is trust and people sharing their data clearly, you know, you have an audience of people who trust the brand. How do you keep that trust going? How is it maintained every day?

Traci Graziani: (13:51)

That is a constant, constantly working on that takes the entire organization, it takes the great leadership that we have across the board. It takes constantly looking at the customer experience and every touch point. And we still have work to do. I, I think any brand that says that it was done would be would be lying. Um, and the world is changing so quickly and technology is changing so quickly and social is changing, making changes in that and the customer is making changes in that. It's just coming back to that and asking yourself those questions. Where might we be falling down and how can we find solutions that are making it better for our customer? Because if we disappoint them at any touchpoint in the funnel or in the experience, that's where the trust is last. They have so many other options, you know, they can go other places. And so it's that combination of trust with our differentiated product that I think will continue to set us apart.

Damian Fowler: (14:49)

You know, the company faced like many retail companies during the pandemic tough times and even faced chapter 11 proceedings, but since then it's turned its fortunes around under the leadership of CEO Andrew Clark and definitely changed its model to become much more successful omni-channel business

Traci Graziani: (15:08)

I think. Absolutely. You know, there was, there's tough times. There's a real straight strategy at play there and you know, he came in and I think he was in the seat for 10 days and then Covid hit.

Damian Fowler: (15:18)

Yeah, poor guy

Traci Graziani: (15:20)

On top of that . And so it's been a pretty, it's been a pretty incredible story just in terms of, you know, the success over the last couple of years. Our ability to come back to listen to the customer and to really lean omnichannel.

Ilyse Liffreing: (15:35)

Last question. So Francesca's has become more and more omnichannel basically through the years. How do you see the future of retail evolving and what strategies are in place to adapt to these upcoming changes?

Traci Graziani: (15:49)

I think I'm gonna be a broken record for this podcast, . I think the future of retail is the customer, the work of the work of marketer and of a brand is trying to influence people's attention and their behaviors. And I think that that there is no certainty in that. It is not a sure thing. And so you have to always be listening and be curious and be willing to test and learn. And that means being obsessed with the customer and pivoting when they're telling you to pivot. Yeah, for me, well I'll go back to Dolly, you know, be who you are and do it on purpose. We've got a really awesome team here and I think that as long as we listen and move fast and stay curious, then we'll be set up for the future of what retail looks like because we're listening to what the customer has to say.

Ilyse Liffreing: (16:43)

And that's it for The Current. Stay tuned because next time we'll be speaking with John Cook, the global CEO of VMLY&R.

Damian Fowler: (17:08)

The Current is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by loving caliber and the current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.

Ilyse Liffreing: (17:16)

And remember,

Traci Graziani: (17:17)

As marketers, if we think we know something , um, we should guess again and stay curious.

Ilyse Liffreing: (17:23)

I'm Ilyse

Damian Fowler: (17:24)

And I'm Damian

Ilyse Liffreing: (17:25)

And we'll see you next time.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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ADT’s EVP and CMO DeLu Jackson joins The Current Podcast to discuss how the company’s partnership with Major League Baseball’s Miami Marlins reinforces the impact of live sports. Jackson also touches on why the marketing funnel isn’t so much a funnel anymore as it is an “infinity loop.”

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.

[00:00:02] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffering. And

[00:00:03] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. 

[00:00:06] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with DeLu Jackson, EVP and CMO of ADT. [00:00:12] Damian: The home security's brand synonymous with its blue octagon logo, seen on front lawns and in windows across the United States, is turning 150 years old this August.

[00:00:28] In all those years, ADT has seen its customers needs fluctuate, technology has given more power to individuals, and the inconsistent housing market is turning out more renters than owners.

[00:00:40] Damian: Delu starts out by telling us what messaging the brand is leaning into as it reaches a new milestone 

[00:00:49] Ilyse: DeLu, ADT is celebrating its 150th birthday in August. That little blue hexagon basically has been known for a long time and signs in front of front [00:01:00] yards and windows across America.

[00:01:02] How has the brand continued to evolve and how is the brand leaning into new messaging?

[00:01:15] DeLu: you know, monumental 150th birthday. And for us, that's a really great testament as much to all the things we've accomplished in that 150 years. But more importantly, what it means for the next 150 years, because all of that's been driven by a consistent commitment to innovation, insecurity, safety and now even smart home.

[00:01:38] So it's been the evolution of the definition of what it means to be safe, protected and connected. and for all of our history, we've been focused on making sure that we're the leader and providing that to our, customers. 

[00:01:54] Ilyse: and I understand there's even like a new campaign coming out soon? 

[00:01:57] DeLu: Oh, yeah. So part of this [00:02:00] innovation and this even history of it is recognizing that from our consumers always that, every second counts, right? That when we think about what we're doing, there's this tension between, living your life to the fullest

[00:02:14] and having the opportunity to travel and do amazing things because the things that you care about are protected.

[00:02:21] And so this idea that when every second counts, you can count on ADT and really always have is really exciting for us,

[00:02:29] internally And externally. 

[00:02:31] It's such a Great manifestation of what we've always been and what we aspire to provide, going forward. 

[00:02:40] Ilyse: On that note, I remember even like five years ago I wrote a piece for Ad Age about how the brand underwent a marketing transformation to drive the message home that ADT is much more than a home security provider. With your smart home integration and your mobile security options for small and large businesses.[00:03:00]

[00:03:00] How has that, moved the needle forward. 

[00:03:02] What would you say is the perception of the brand today? 

[00:03:05] DeLu: say the perceptions continue to evolve and I'd say that the one great thing is that the foundational relevance of safety and security are still  super high for so many consumers. It's what they need. And as the space has evolved to  be more smart home and connected devices and, video and cameras, we've continued to provide that and customers are programming and our messaging have continued to reinforce that. with partnerships and with our continued platform innovation to provide those capabilities. So it's been a big part of our continued innovation and commitment to innovation for safety and security. 

[00:03:46] Damian: One of the things that's really interesting to me is your approach to ads in the campaigns that you launch. and I know that in 2023 switched from sort of more fearful or scary approach to a humorous [00:04:00] one. And I'm just wondering, you mentioned that tension between living your life to the fullest and also looking after things that matter.

[00:04:06] Could you talk a little bit about that tension and how it informs 

[00:04:10] your

[00:04:10] campaigns. 

[00:04:11] DeLu: I think it's really a really important one that we called the FUD or fear, uncertainty and doubt. And the YOLO, you only live once, and that's always been the tension that we see that the things that we protect customers from versus the things we protect them for. And we saw the insight that, That people really, lean into and get emotional about the things we protect them for.

[00:04:40] And it really shows the value we create 

[00:04:42] when we demonstrate that, and we don't have to scare people to do that. We just need to demonstrate that we are really 

[00:04:49] there to take care of those things. And if we're there and in place taking care of those

[00:04:53] things, then you can do some amazing things and live your life to the fullest.

[00:04:57] And that's really, what our customers,[00:05:00] celebrate. And that's really 

[00:05:01] neat for us to know that we play a critical role

[00:05:04] Damian: That's, that's fascinating. And do you have any sort of specific examples of how, customers have shared those things that ADT has afforded them, insight into their best lives 

[00:05:17] as it were.

[00:05:18] DeLu: Oh, really fascinating is, 

[00:05:21] one of our big partners, looked on, just did web search and we looked at all of these great images of what people were doing with our signs in the background. So celebrating birthdays, celebrating my, first new business as an 

[00:05:36] entrepreneur, Celebrating graduations.

[00:05:40] we had a video of a customer putting an alligator in a trash can in his front yard.

[00:05:45] And that sign is there. 

[00:05:47] Sometimes it's in the background, sometimes it's in the forefront. But it's, been a part of all these big moments. and that's really interesting because it's just there and alive, out in the world every[00:06:00]

[00:06:00] Damian: Yeah. It's amazing. The power of that logo, actually, it's not something As prominent as, say, the Golden Arches. and at the same time, when you. think about it, it is ubiquitous. you see it everywhere, once you start 

[00:06:11] noticing it. 

[00:06:13] DeLu: like you said, if you go through neighborhoods and you start to really pay attention to it, you see how many places it's there, on a window, in a yard, on a business. 

[00:06:23] it is so iconic, and so 

[00:06:26] ever present.

[00:06:27] Damian: Eilidh just mentioned that five years ago she was writing about ADT. And one thing that just occurred to me when she said that is in the last five years we've seen tech, undergo especially ad tech, undergo a kind of boom. And I'm interested to know how that has influenced the way you

[00:06:44] approach your marketing,

[00:06:47] DeLu: it really speaks to the omni channel nature of marketing. It's not one or the other, where our sales motion historically had been,

[00:06:57] very much in the home,

[00:06:59] [00:07:00] physical interactions and interactions with customers. The digital capabilities in terms of information presentation, information gathering, research, And even purchasing online and being able to buy online and even install it yourself.

[00:07:15] All of that has transformed,

[00:07:18] consumers engage with us even purchase. So we're present in all those channels now and make sure that we provide the right information based on the context of those channels. So it's been exciting, in terms of the different ways to reach consumers and connect with, their, evolving needs for safety

[00:07:41] Ilyse: Speaking about your marketing, ADT has shifted from having an in house agency to now going back to an external partner. What basically inspired that shift back? 

[00:07:54] DeLu: Yeah, I'd say it's an evolution, right? So a few years ago had an opportunity to [00:08:00] hire a lot of great talent and bring them in house.

[00:08:03] of build internal capabilities time we're really, leading capabilities as that continued to involve and partners start to bring new ideas. We started to add them to the roster

[00:08:14] and for initiatives and projects. And as we move forward, they start to 

[00:08:18] bring bigger ideas and just through evolution and growth, our teams have added more of those back to our roster and expanded the team size. So now when you look up. it's more of an evolution than a revolution. We look up and we have a great internal team that drives certain capabilities. And then we've supplemented that With some leading partners just so that we can continue to innovate and deliver, on our customer expectations. 

[00:08:43] Ilyse: That is interesting. are there any specific channels that you perhaps are just increasing spend and time and effort on?

[00:08:54] DeLu: Yeah, probably the one that's growing most is connected TV and streaming, you know, as more people go there, [00:09:00] but social is increasing as people consume more information YouTube, right? Those are continuing to grow because when we think about some people, when they purchase these types of solutions, they need more information.

[00:09:12] And sometimes advertising creates interest, but we have to go other places to find, to make the purchase decision or find all the collective information. So I would say is as much, 

[00:09:22] communicating effectively as it is advertising and marketing. It's really the expansion of communicating effectively across all of those channels. I think that's a really

[00:09:31] important distinction for us because we think about it as part of our communication strategy or go to market strategy, not simply what we would call marketing. It's more comprehensive. 

[00:09:42] Yeah, it makes a lot of sense that is your go to market strategy, though, tied to, in some ways, the health of the housing market, because presumably, you're looking to reach people who are buying homes, setting up homes. absolutely. people move, relocate or, [00:10:00] remodel homes, the

[00:10:02] self improvement craze, all of those things, those are, moments that are identified where people make the decision to upgrade a system, add a system, upgrade a system, or reactivate a system. So we definitely, are very present in those activities, online and in physical, channels.

[00:10:18] we've also seen things like, the growth in renters. So we have a, DIY or ADT self set up product. We also work in the multifamily space, where, more users, or builders and, property 

[00:10:31] managers can support the, units and the, renters in those units. Again, Different needs, different need states, and leading brands like ADT are providing more options for consumers to protect

[00:10:45] Damian: That's interesting what you said about renters and the Renters leaning into using the self setup. you say a little bit more about that? What's the potential for that market right now? [00:11:00]

[00:11:06] DeLu: DIY solutions gives people the opportunity to, you Create more affordable solutions as well as they're portable, right? We can take them with me. and so, it's just part of the evolution of the nature of security, how technology has changed it and made it more accessible and more available to more people.

[00:11:26] So it's not just when you're in a home you own, it's in, The home that's yours, or what you call home, and that expanded portfolio has allowed us to provide protection to more families, small businesses, and again, more people.

[00:11:43] Ilyse: Now, when it comes to generational differences between homeowners and renters, how do you look at those different subsets of consumers and target to them effectively across channels? 

[00:11:58] DeLu: Interesting, because we look at the need state [00:12:00] and the use cases. We call them demand spaces. And really, it's sort of life stage and there's some key things, right?

[00:12:07] How often do I relocate? Younger audiences tend to move more, right? Some even current

[00:12:12] generations just move more in general than historically. Then you have more stable where people buy a place and they stay in a place a long time. They have slightly different characteristics. But interesting thing When you're in the business for 150 years, we've been through so many generations 

[00:12:28] of families who have started with us, grown up with us, grown old with us and pass it on to the 

[00:12:34] next generation. So that's again, really interesting dynamic that we've seen over all those 

[00:12:40] decades of presence, that those, those behaviors are really about life stage, affordability, and then. Portability and mobility, relative to those, generations. And so we look at all of those signals to provide solutions that work for consumers across those need states. 

[00:12:59] Damian: it's very interesting [00:13:00] that there's a sort of generational handing down of the brand. And I hadn't even considered that in, the context of security. 

[00:13:08] DeLu: We have so many people who would tell us that I grew up with it. was always there. And it was that, thing that I needed when I needed something, I knew to push the button, or I knew to call, or I knew how to set it, and I remember some of my first memories of setting it, when I'm home, or I'm watching a little brother or a cousin, and so it's a really fascinating, role it's played in so many lives for so and there's just many of those, insights 

[00:13:37] Ilyse: Now, how do you go about measuring the impacts of the campaign investments that you are making? 

[00:13:44] DeLu: Yeah, we use a number of but I think what's really interesting for our team is because we're a direct seller, we have the ability to measure, our investments right down to not just the sale, but to the installation.

[00:13:57] we can look in time at all of our investments in [00:14:00] our media mix and understand when we invest, have something in or out, or we change campaign or content, What's the impact through the entire funnel?

[00:14:09] And I'm fortunate to have a great team from advanced analytics to performance measurement that works together every day with our teams to literally measure that and look at the things that are happening and changing by the day over time. So we have a really interesting, rich body of insight to help us understand, the impact of every investment. 

[00:14:30] Ilyse: one thing with omni channel environments is that a lot of marketers are saying, basically, that with, like, CTV and, commerce, almost like the funnel is collapsing in a sense. what would you say to that? 

[00:14:44] DeLu: I would say it's less of a funnel than a little bit of an infinity loop, right? People are gathering information.

[00:14:52] Pre, during, post, even after they purchase, they continue to gather information, reaffirm, and right, [00:15:00] optimize their choices. So I think it's really, it's not a funnel that kind of goes to the bottom and people stop.

[00:15:07] I think people just continue to, consume information and insights. so I think we kind of have to be always on and again, omnipresent to meet those

[00:15:18] Damian: And speaking of omnipresent and this is a bit of a pivot, but I know you partnered last year with, Miami Marlins in a multi year deal. I'm curious to hear from you, On why sports sponsorships are part of your strategy. 

[00:15:32] DeLu: Yeah, this was a really exciting one for us. And part of it was, beyond just sports sponsorships. This was the first time that they were doing, branded, advertising on major league baseball uniforms. What we liked about it was the context. And if you go to the stadium, you'll see when you're around third base, it says, Safe at Home.

[00:15:52] And when they score a run, it lights up and it says safe at home brought so really neat, right? Some people were thinking it was [00:16:00] really about impressions, right? How much visibility will the, brand visible? That's a really important one. But what we saw was this great context, safe at home.

[00:16:10] It's also a great family venue. It's great for employees. It's great for, And by the way, they play 81 games at home and 81 games on the road. So the brand travels. and then lastly, I would say really cool with the partnership, beyond the community work we do and the development of, of our philanthropy and, giving kids safe places and safe spaces to, grow up and learn sports and develop.

[00:16:36] we also, have the patches on both arms. So when you look at visibility, it's visible for most of the game, because if you're, a right handed batter, it's on the left sleeve. And if it's on the left hand, it's on the right sleeve. Same with the pictures so that the brand is ever present. And finally, I'd say what I loved about it is, as in the stands or on the road talk about it, they [00:17:00] knew the context.

[00:17:01] They said, well, they must need extra protection. And it's like, they understand context in which we operate. And I really love that is that it wasn't just a brand that was there. It was a brand that made sense being there.

[00:17:17] what was really great about that. I love building on that is that when we think about media and the concept of media, this was a big part of it. we use comparisons to what are the number of impressions, media impressions and back to context, contextual delivery of our messaging with these partnerships and each of them gave us the opportunity to get, a large amounts of media and visibility for the brand in a very specific context that reinforces the things that we want to home or safety [00:18:00] help communities stay safe and these are So when you look at that from a pure media perspective, live sports. And sports in general have, broad reach audiences. they have sequentially different audiences based on events and locations. And so give us a lot of great reach, uh, and in some cases great frequency, as I described with, baseball and, on the road.

[00:18:25] We also look at the media markets. Where do they play? You know, so really interesting when you think about it in the context of media versus just, as an event, impressions. worked environments. of [00:19:00] Sure. it really is the evolution you described I caught the tail of the digital revolution, if you will, in marketing. Where as technology started to transform the way we go to market, thought about consumers, thought about the paces which we operate. and the convergence of technology and what we call traditional marketing, right?

[00:19:31] Digital used to be a unique thing that's set between IT and marketing. And then, as you said, they continue to converge in terms of the way consumers engage with those spaces. So then the teams started to come together. And I've been fortunate to have opportunities to work across those different disciplines And bring those things together for organizations who were going through those transformations and help individuals of all help teams of all and help organizations evolve to [00:20:00] bring those things together.

[00:20:01] So my career has been one of sort of the brands you mentioned. amazing organization transformations around the world and really been, an exciting time to be part of marketing. 

[00:20:13] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay

[00:20:18] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesey and Sydney Cairns.

[00:20:25] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.

[00:20:27] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse.

[00:20:28] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:20:32] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

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Crunch Fitness' CMO, Chad Waetzig joins The Current Podcast to explore how Crunch is developing their on-demand workout streaming app, how they're leaning into performance marketing versus brand-building and why digital media is the best way to reach its gymgoers.

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

 

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler

[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffering. 

[00:00:03] Damian: And welcome to this edition of the current 

[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Chad Waitzig, the CMO of Crunch Fitness, who leads the brand's marketing and communication efforts for its gym locations all over the world.

[00:00:17] Damian: Headquartered in New York City, Crunch serves 2. 5 million members with over 460 gyms worldwide and continues to expand in the U. S. and around the globe.

[00:00:28] While Crunch has built a community of fitness enthusiasts at its physical locations, it has also been on a mission of expanding its reach on digital.

[00:00:37] We start by asking Chad about how he'd characterize the gym's marketing goals.

[00:00:43] Ilyse: so Chad, how would you characterize the marketing mission for Crunch?

[00:00:48] Chad: It's really important for us, to both build comprehension around what the crunch brand experience is.

[00:01:05] And we think we've got a pretty unique offering in the high value, low price space and in fitness, but it's also to drive leads and it's to fill that, consumer funnel, with folks who are interested in exploring a fitness workout, And building that lead base so that our franchisees, our partners in our marketing journey, can invite them into the gym, give them a free trial, and encourage them to join and continue their fitness journey with us.

[00:01:32] so as we think about what we do day in and day out, I'd say that, 80 percent of what we do is focused on how can we introduce the brand to more people and drive leads into the system.

[00:01:41] Damian: Now, can you talk about your latest campaign and how that works? I know you're talking about, a kind of big campaign, but you're also then trying to target local gyms and gym spaces and demographics. Can you talk about how that relationship works?

[00:01:54] what about the new campaign? Feel good, not bad? 

[00:01:57] Chad: Yeah. Yeah. So we're, really excited about feel good. [00:02:00] Not bad. we launched the campaign on December the 26th, which is, basically the start of our year, immediately after Christmas. and the, conceit or the gestalt of the campaign is to. recognize that as a country, we've gone through a lot of bad stuff, and, there's a lot of bad in the world, and we don't want to focus on the bad in the world, but we know that it's out there and  how do we, recognize that a way to combat that is to feel good, and to feel good.

[00:02:31] You can do that through working out. So the whole campaign is focused on this idea of telling a story about the bad things that happen through silly, humorous, metaphors, banging your head on a drawer, getting stuck in a revolving door, waking up in the desert on a camping trip with a snake.

[00:02:52] Attached to your face, really absurd, silly things as a metaphor for the bad in the world, and that through working out and through [00:03:00] working out at crunch, you can get those endorphin rushes. you can escape from the world. You can forget all the bad that's out there and really focus on yourself.

[00:03:07] You can really lose yourself at crunch. so that's, the gestalt behind the campaign or the, idea behind the campaign. Now, the way we execute that campaign, and we do it in partnership with our franchisees, is through a mix of brand marketing, performance marketing, and retail marketing. And so we've designed, creative assets that kind of take you through that entire journey, whether it's television, radio, direct mail, or digital marketing assets, that really tell that story in a layered way as a consumer moves through the journey.

[00:03:41] Damian: Yeah, that's interesting. now you mentioned the campaign, the Feel Good, Not Bad campaign is one that really dives into humor to convey how fitness can be fun. We recently had on this podcast, the CEO of BBDO, Andrew Robertson, who talked about the importance of funny ads and why they're so important.

[00:03:59] [00:04:00] To building a brand's identity. I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. and why is Funny the right fit for you?

[00:04:07] Chad: Yeah, first of all, I would agree with his assessment. And, at our heart, we're storytellers, right? All marketers are storytellers, and we're telling the story of our brand and our business. And humor, leveraging humor, is one way to tell that story in a way that we think breaks through the clutter.

[00:04:26] We're a gym for goodness sakes, right? We're a place where people come to, to get better. whether that's more, more flexible, whether that's to build endurance, whether that's to lose weight, whether that's to gain strength and muscle, but we also don't take ourselves too seriously. And so we think that, our no judgments philosophy, the way we approach our members and the way we approach our experience, it really lends itself well to humor.

[00:04:50] But the other thing to keep in mind too, is that. Humor can work in almost any business. think about insurance. 20 years ago, if you had said, we're going to use humor to tell [00:05:00] the insurance story, people would have thought you were crazy. Maybe it's more than 20 years now, but, Geico really broke through the clutter and now look at everybody in that category, right?

[00:05:08] They all leverage humor for something that is not a very funny product. our product isn't funny, but our product and our experience is fun. And we think humor helps us tell that story. 

[00:05:19] Ilyse: Now here we talk a lot about digital channels, obviously, programmatic, CTV, and, there's a Common philosophy or really it's just a fact at this point that, that's a good way to reach like younger consumers. is that what you are finding? Are you trying to reach millennials and Gen Zers specifically?

[00:05:44] ​Or are you looking at whole cohorts of people? Consumers, what is your approach?

[00:05:50] Chad: our core consumer is somebody that we call young strong on social, they are our north star. They're the group that we [00:06:00] focus on, for crunch, about a quarter of our member base is made up of. Of people 18 to 24, about a third of our member base are members 25 to 34, so the majority of our members are in that 18 to 34 age range, and that's our young, strong and social group.

[00:06:16] Now, we run, we have, campaigns available for our network, to target seniors, active seniors. boomers, Gen, Gen Xers like me, but really our focus is on the 18 to 34 and we do find that digital media channels, are really the best way to reach that audience, right? They, by and large, they're not cable TV subscribers.

[00:06:39] they watch a lot of YouTube. They're on social media. and we find that, one of the best ways for us to build awareness is either through CTV, or through YouTube. Uh, and those are the two channels where we are dominant.

[00:06:52] Ilyse: And I know you've also spoken about, TV itself too, a little bit. How has like this omni [00:07:00] channel like approach really benefited your brand?

[00:07:04] Chad: Yeah, for us, it's been a journey. today we've got 460 gyms and about 2. 7 million members, and we're celebrating our 35th anniversary, but, we're still a small business. when I joined Crunch seven years ago, we had about 125 locations and, obviously we were significantly smaller.

[00:07:21] So our dollars, We had to make a strategic choice back then, and our strategic choice was to invest in performance marketing almost exclusively at the expense of brand marketing. Now that we've grown, and now that we're bigger, and we have the, The resources available to us the critical mass. We have found that the omni channel approach for us has paid off in spades.

[00:07:46] Our brand awareness has tripled in the last three years, whether that's aided or unaided. And we find that then drives. more consumers to consider us. Our consideration is higher, which then [00:08:00] leads to greater lead production, and greater sales. And, the brand doesn't do it alone.

[00:08:05] Our franchisees play a big role in that, but if we had not made that strategic shift to really focus on the Omni channel, I don't think our results would be as strong as they are today.

[00:08:17] Ilyse: And today, are you mostly now looking at consumer retention or learning new members to join? It does seem, we talk a lot about streaming wars, but it does seem like there's quite a lot of gym wars out there now.

[00:08:31] Chad: Yeah, you know, the fitness industry is, really an interesting one. It is competitive. so today about one in five Americans belongs to a gym, a health club, the Y, or a boutique studio. Now, that number 10, 15 years ago was probably closer to 15%, 14%. The category itself is growing.

[00:08:51] So when, crunch wins, the whole category wins when our competitors, when the category wins, cause we are growing the category, but we do compete [00:09:00] for a lot of the same folks, people do switch gyms, they break up with their old gym, they, join a new gym. and so it is a mix for us on the acquisition side.

[00:09:09] To both bring new people into the category that maybe are just considering a gym for the very first time, but we're also trying to steal members from other clubs that without a doubt, and our competition would probably say the same. So in answer to your bigger question, how do we think about it is about retention is about acquisition.

[00:09:27] It really is both. 

[00:09:29] Damian: It's interesting. you know, we did use the analogy of streaming, but there's a lot of churn in streaming. you turn off your subscription for one and then you turn it on for another. We just had some data recently that said, I think 30 percent of people who cancel return within a few months to the channel.

[00:09:43] So, it's an interesting game, I guess. Yeah,

[00:09:49] Chad: of our biggest sources of leads. we very much, look at our former members as potential future members, and they do come back.

[00:09:57] Ilyse: Very interesting. Yeah. And, speaking of [00:10:00] streaming, Crunch has its Crunch Plus platform and I know this was a big kind of trend overall, no matter what category you're in, during COVID and everything was to go digital, make sure your product is available where the people were, which is their living rooms at home.

[00:10:18] and now it's a little more than a year old. and it obviously it built on what you had before, which is crunch live. Can you tell us how this has been performing and how you would describe the divide between people going in person to the gym and potentially those working out at home now?

[00:10:38] Chad: Yeah, really great question. So you're right. We launched, crunch plus about a year ago, and we retired an old platform that we had that was called crunch live crunch live we were the first big box gym to have our own streaming workout product it launched way back in 2013, and it was browser based [00:11:00] only.

[00:11:00] Ilyse: Way pre COVID before it was cool.

[00:11:03] Chad: it was cool. Before it was cool. And during COVID, we saw our daily usage. Increased tenfold, with a fairly limited library of workouts. And so we clearly realized that we needed to reintroduce our streaming products and that's how we got to crunch plus. So now crunch plus is available on, just about every streaming device.

[00:11:23] And, we couldn't be more pleased with where we are today. versus our launch. and just this year alone versus where we finished, in December of last year, our user base on the platform is up 47%.

[00:11:39] we have over 600, Workouts available and we're adding the goal is to add one workout a day Either through live streaming or through pre recorded content to the library And we see crunch plus as really both a member benefit. So if you are a crunch member, You get access to crunch plus and basically a [00:12:00] 70 discount off the retail price.

[00:12:02] it's incredibly Affordable. It's 1. 99 a month. and so for our members, it's a way to take that brand experience outside the four walls of the gym, whether they're wanting to work out at home, or maybe they travel a lot and they want to take it on the road, but they can also take it right back into the gym.

[00:12:19] And so we've got workouts that, are on a treadmill or on a spin bike, or require the use of dumbbells and other equipment that you may not have at home, We've got in the crunch gym. And so we've really created this hybrid workout environment between in person in the gym and virtual on crunch plus, and now for our retail subscribers, those that are not crunch members. they pay 6. 99 a month. ​Again, it's, an incredible value relative to other products in the marketplace, and we think it's a great way to extend the brand and reach into markets where crunch doesn't exist yet. you can get crunch plus anywhere in the world. we've got 460 locations and [00:13:00] 360 of them are in the United States.

[00:13:01] So we have lots of growth ahead of us in terms of our physical footprint, but we love where our digital footprint has taken us.

[00:13:10] Damian: Yeah, that's a great move. I see people in the gym with, their smartphones looking at workouts and things. It makes sense for you to have that workout associated with, crunch, or the gym in question.

[00:13:21] Chad: that's exactly right. and we really have only started to scratch the surface of where we can take this. I mean, one of the biggest challenges for new people who have never worked out in a gym before is the intimidation that they feel when they come to the gym. And, Most people think about the intimidation as being the, I've got to lose weight before I join the gym mentality, right? the body image concerns. But think about this. If you've never been to a gym before and you walk in the door, you are seeing all kinds of foreign alien equipment with pulleys and weights and pins and benches that articulate in different directions.

[00:13:58] Where do I even [00:14:00] start? And what we think CrunchPlus is going to be great for is to give people who are completely new to the gym experience that introduction of how do I get started? What is the best workout for me? How does this piece of equipment actually work? If I'm concerned about how I might be perceived by others, let me watch this video and see how to set this up correctly.

[00:14:21] so we're real excited about where we're going to continue to take this platform as it continues to grow and mature.

[00:14:26] Damian: Yeah, that's a great point.

[00:14:27] Ilyse: could have used that for sure. Yeah, you

[00:14:29] Damian: and you see some of these, dudes in there, they're massive and they're making it look like, child's play. I'm like, what? This,

[00:14:36] Chad: Right,

[00:14:37] Damian: this is scary. Yeah. 

[00:14:41] Chad: The great thing about those guys, though, is if you ask them for help, they're going to jump right in and help you. they're very proud to share. Here's, how you do this.

[00:14:48] Damian: Mm. It's a community, right? a fitness community.

[00:14:52] Chad: absolutely. Absolutely. It's the community. In fact, we just did a recent member survey, new member survey, [00:15:00] and we found that 46 percent of our new members, have actually made new friends or founded a community at crunch just by joining and getting to the gym.

[00:15:10] So we do think crunch is a great place to build community and our members that it's one of the reasons why they join. 

[00:15:17] Damian: And speaking of community, you have recently teamed up with Amazon One. Can you talk about how that partnership improves the membership experience for your customers?

[00:15:28] Chad: we love our partnership with Amazon. it has gone really well. And they've been, as you can imagine, they're one of the largest companies in the world. They are very sophisticated in what they do. And, they've been a great partner to work with, for those, listeners that aren't familiar with the Amazon one product, it is a biometric device reads basically the palm of your hand.

[00:15:49] It is a touchless device. You basically hover your palm over their reader and it identifies you uniquely. So apparently the palm of your hand is as unique as your fingerprint [00:16:00] or your retina and, Amazon has piloted this in, I believe it's being rolled out in Whole Foods.

[00:16:07] I believe they have a partnership with Panera. And then they were piloting it in their own C Store concept for a while. We got together with Amazon to really be the first to bring it to the fitness environment. And the initial application or use case is to validate a member's entry into the gym. And What we found is I think a couple of things.

[00:16:32] there's a back office business case which reduces fraud for us. So we don't have members sharing their key tag with their barcode with friends, right? Because now I only can get in with my palm. So that reduces, that concern. But from the perspective of our members, it shows that we're progressive.

[00:16:57] We're forward thinking. we've got the latest [00:17:00] technology and we're bringing that into the environment. and we've seen adoption close to 80 percent in the locations where we've rolled it out. There are some folks that are still concerned about having their biometric data. read by Amazon, and we respect that and we'll still have the old way of scanning barcodes at the front desk, but for the vast majority of our members, it allows them to get into the gym quickly and get right to their workout.

[00:17:24] Damian: Mm. That is fascinating. I actually didn't know about Amazon One, 

[00:17:27] Chad: Yeah, if you have a Whole Foods near you, next time you go to a Whole Foods, see if they've got it. it's how I use, it's how I check out at Whole Foods. it is faster than even, Apple Pay and Google Pay, I

[00:17:39] Damian: Wow. Mm.

[00:17:41] Chad: I think it's a pretty great service.

[00:17:42] Damian: in general, when it comes to partnerships, how important are those kind of brand partnerships for Crunch?

[00:17:49] Chad: they're really important and, you can think about partnerships for us, at least. We think about it in a couple of different levels. One is this kind of, Big strategic capability [00:18:00] enhancing partnership, which we have with Amazon, and we've got obviously have partnerships with some of the best, equipment manufacturers in the fitness space, right? Whether that's through life fitness or, TRX or the other, brands of the space, and we look at that as a way to enhance our member experience. We've got a really talented member experience team headed up by our chief experience officer, Molly long and, Molly and her team are thinking about ways that they can bring these kinds of big brand partnerships that are enablers.

[00:18:34] To bear on the member experience. But on the marketing side, we also look at brand partnerships as a way to enhance your existing membership. So we do partnerships where we provide our members access to crunch only discounts. So we have one right now with Crocs where members can get a discount on Crocs shoes that's proving to be very popular.

[00:18:58] ​And one of the ways in [00:19:00] which we talk about our membership, pricing with our members. and so one of the things that we like to say to prospective members is that if you take advantage of all the discounts that you can get through your crunch membership, all the retail discounts with our brand partners, your membership practically pays for itself.

[00:19:14] And so we like to think that because it is a membership, you are part of a community, you are part of a gym, you are part of a club. If we can give value back to that member, it only makes that membership more valuable to them. So for us, those brand partnerships are super important.

[00:19:30] Damian: we want to talk about first party data, of course, and we want to talk about that and how that informs some of your campaigns. And we assume, given that you have this great membership, global membership, it's not necessarily an issue for Crunch.

[00:19:43] But how do you go about, leveraging that first party data to inform your marketing efforts? 

[00:19:49] Chad: so obviously our first party data even more so today than in years past is important to us and being able to leverage that data is [00:20:00] an important part of what we do both on the brand marketing side, but also are we work with our franchise partners for them to execute on their local marketing side.

[00:20:08] Our media agency of record is USIM, and through USIM, we have an identity resolution initiative with TransUnion, where we enrich our first party data anonymously, with the TransUnion data, and we use that for audience building, lookalike audience building, Former member, audience building, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:20:29] And a lot of that is used, through programmatic. it, it informs, what we do, in terms of, our targeting. the way in which we've structured our media approach, brand marketing happens through the Crunch marketing team. We also pick up search, on behalf of our network, just given the complexities of search and the ever changing, approach to paid search.

[00:20:54] we. We feel like we're in a better position to manage that on behalf of our franchisees than asking our franchisees [00:21:00] to do that. Really everything in between is through our franchise partners and we have four brand approved agencies that they can choose to work with And we work with them To make sure that they have access to first party data so that they can also enrich that data and do first party, audience building, et cetera.

[00:21:20] So for us, it's a critical component of what we do. And again, of, what we spend, I would say that, from. CTV all the way down through search, probably 90 percent of our spend across the network is digital.

[00:21:36] Ilyse: Very awesome. I actually have a question about first party data. Are you able to glean more, say from Crunch Plus? Because people are tuning in and you're able to see, what kind of workouts they're choosing, what kind of, when, they are actually working out.

[00:21:55] It must be very revealing, even more so than your regular, gym [00:22:00] customers that come in.

[00:22:02] Chad: it's actually, that's actually a great question and it is true because obviously we control and manage the crunch plus platform of the 600 plus videos or workouts that we have. We can see what the viewership is. We can, we understand the view through rate on each of those. We know what each subscriber is watching and what kind of workouts they're doing and the frequency with which they're doing that.

[00:22:26] and that's rich data that. We don't necessarily have easily accessed on the gym membership side. so from that standpoint, in terms of building out new workouts, as an example, we found that the 20 minute workout videos were the most popular in the group. And yet when we launched, we were launching with 30, 45 minute workout videos.

[00:22:51] We pivoted very quickly to doing more over 20 minute workouts. And what we found is. The 20 minutes were actually too long based on view through [00:23:00] rates. So we launched a number of what we call quickies, right? They're five minute workouts and the viewership on those has skyrocketed. that's where we've leveraged that first party data to learn on the gym side, it's a little bit more challenging, but we're actually building out more of a, first party data set around.

[00:23:16] utilization of the gym. We know when they check into the gym. If they book and take a group fitness class, we know that they're doing that because that's an online reservation system. we know when they buy a personal training package and when they take personal training sessions. And so the next level for us as an organization is to better activate that first party data so that we can do a better job on member retention.

[00:23:40] upselling into higher tier memberships, and cross selling into other parts of our business.

[00:23:45] Ilyse: And based off of that, and knowing that you guys are located in 41 states,

[00:23:51] Chad: Yes.

[00:23:52] Ilyse: you can probably tell me which states are the fittest in the U. S. in terms of attendance. I mean, I'm just [00:24:00] curious.

[00:24:00] Damian: just

[00:24:01] Chad: so that's a really good question.

[00:24:04] Ilyse: New York, I know.

[00:24:05] Chad: I, I can, I can say I can say that,

[00:24:09] Ilyse: work out a lot here.

[00:24:10] Chad: there are certain markets. the southeast is one of them where the number of visits per member is higher than the average. Obviously, we have an average, per month in the southeast. Really strong gym attendance.

[00:24:26] I'm not going to say whether or not they're more fit than

[00:24:29] Damian: Yeah, you can't know that.

[00:24:31] Chad: but utilization does vary based on, based on market. I don't know how much of that is driven by weather, or how much that's driven by lifestyle. 

[00:24:39] Ilyse: who's the laziest

[00:24:40] Chad: in New York City, New York City, we have really strong, really strong utilization of the gyms, best ever, better than pre pandemic.

[00:24:48] Ilyse: Oh well.

[00:24:49] Chad: but we've seen that across the board that the utilization of our gyms post pandemic has been at a higher level everywhere than versus than pre pandemic.

[00:24:59] Ilyse: People [00:25:00] want to get out there again.

[00:25:01] Chad: I think people want to get out there. Yep. I think they recognize that the role of fitness in, in relieving stress and anxiety is important.

[00:25:08] Ilyse: How do you then tailor your messaging? Based off of location, especially if you're, talking to the fittest people in the U S versus the laziest,

[00:25:18] Damian: people in

[00:25:20] Chad: we wouldn't say that we're all about no judgments,

[00:25:22] Damian: no, of course.

[00:25:23] Chad: there, there is no one type, there is no one reason, there is no one way, for us at Crunch. but we do build out marketing assets that allow our franchisees, who are the closest To the member than we are here in the puzzle palace here in New York City, right in the ivory tower.

[00:25:42] and we make sure that we provide assets that, if your club is really strong in group fitness classes, that we've got the assets for you there. If your gym is really big into strength training, which is virtually all gyms. Now we've got lots of strength training assets, or if you're into hit workouts, or if you're into [00:26:00] Kids Crunch babysitting is important because you've got a lot of younger families and they need to have child care when they come to the gym and work out and we allow our franchisees then to use those assets to tailor their marketing communications based on their local needs.

[00:26:16] Damian: It's interesting. Now, you mentioned, maybe people in warmer climates and warmer states going to the gym maybe than others, but I don't know whether that holds true, but what I wanted to ask you about is what does the marketing calendar look like for a gym like Crunch? especially around key moments, we're here, A good third of the way into the year, but January's obviously got to be a big moment for gyms because everyone has that resolution to get fit again, New Year's resolutions, and then there's the summer, approaching, people think about, oh, I've got to be back on the beach, what should we do?

[00:26:50] How do you strategize around those moments?

[00:26:55] Chad: Yeah, there is certainly a seasonality to, to both visitation and [00:27:00] membership joins new members joining the gym. the first quarter of the year is the. The most important quarter of the year for us. it is our Black Friday and Cyber Monday and holiday season. and we do structure our spending accordingly, right?

[00:27:14] So we'll heavy up in Q1, in the months later in the year when gym memberships aren't as, The demand isn't as high. We will adjust spending accordingly. So we do balance that out throughout the year. So we do marry up spend with demand. Within any given month, we will run a series of national promotions that our franchisees can opt into.

[00:27:39] And they tend to be priced Price driven, because that's the category we're in, but we provide the support to the franchise network around the if they opt into that promotion to try to convert prospects in the system to becoming members. We do look at certain, events. So certainly we look at. New Year's resolutions, New [00:28:00] Year to you.

[00:28:01] We look at spring break. We look at the beginning of the summer. We look at back to school. and then we look at the, to school is the last big hit when you begin to hit November and December, most consumers are really focused on holiday shopping, holiday parties, family get togethers, travel, Wrapping up their year end of their job if they're on a calendar or fiscal year, And then we start right over again on december 26th, and that's when people are like, okay, let's get back to the gym so we do take all of that into consideration but every month has a cycle and every quarter has a cycle and then obviously there's a cycle to the year

[00:28:41] Ilyse: so there's obviously one of the biggest categories on social media is fitness. I would say there's so many fitness influencers out there these days.

[00:28:52] To what extent do you share a kind of like common goal to get people to the gym? Do you then access and use [00:29:00] these social media personalities?

[00:29:02] Chad: Yep. yeah, really good question. influencers in the fitness space are very important and we have worked with influencers. off and on over the past several years, we work with them today. And what we have found them to be most effective for us is around awareness building, introducing crunch to their audience.

[00:29:26] we have tried to activate, and I'm using air quotes for those, listening, obviously, we've tried to activate those influencers to try to sell gym memberships. And we've not succeeded in that. I think their audiences see through that.

[00:29:40] Ilyse: Hmm. Interesting.

[00:29:42] Chad: And so for us, it's more about the authenticity of we want to invite the influencers into our gym.

[00:29:47] We want them to get in a great workout. We want them to tell their story on that does more value for us. than them trying to sell a membership to their audience. And so we certainly work and we pay influencers [00:30:00] for some of that awareness building. But we also Work really hard to make sure that our member experience is an excellent experience for all of our members because we have influencers in our gym all the time that we may not even be aware that they're there and we want them.

[00:30:18] We wanted to organically. Work its way through social media, and we've actually had some great success with that. And so the success comes from our fantastic operators on running a great gym on the influencers who are already members are just telling the crunch story for us. They're evangelists on. You really can't put a price on that.

[00:30:41]

[00:30:41] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:30:46] Ilyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber.

[00:30:49] The current team includes cat fussy and Sydney Cairns. 

[00:30:53] Damian: remember I'm

[00:30:55] Ilyse: and I'm

[00:30:56] Damian: we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe [00:31:00] and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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Intuit's Dave Raggio shares why SMB MediaLabs doesn’t own inventory, how it prioritizes privacy for its customers, and the reason consumer and CPG brands are turning to Intuit’s data. 

 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.

[00:00:01] Ilyse: and I'm Ilyse Liffreing

[00:00:02] Damian: and welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to bring Dave Raggio to the podcast. Dave is the vice president of S& B Media Labs, a B2B media network owned by Intuit, which is of course known for business products like TurboTax, QuickBooks, Credit Karma, and MailChimp.

[00:00:22] Damian: Now Dave developed the idea of SMB Media Lab, which leans on the first party data from the millions of people who use QuickBooks, and it provides small businesses with the intelligence they need to reach their customers across channels like audio and CTV.

[00:00:38] Ilyse: We start out by asking Dave about the origins of S& D Media Labs.

[00:00:42] : It really came from honestly my personal frustration, in trying to reach SMBs for my, what I'm calling my day job. So, I was hired four years ago, at Intuit to lead QuickBooks acquisition marketing. And I actually still hold that position today. Um, my entire career has [00:01:00] been consumer brand. So I was with North Face before this.

[00:01:02] Um, spent a lot of time agency side, working on a variety of clients across CPG and e comm retail. And when I got to, into it, um, I tried to essentially apply the same data sources and tactics that worked very well for me in the, in the consumer world. And it was met very quickly with the reality that SMB data is very hard to find, and when you do find it, the accuracy is just not great.

[00:01:28] So, you know, I have a friend, um, that works in the agency that me that at the top you have enterprise level data, which is pretty high quality at the bottom. You have your consumer data, which is abundant and high quality, but between there's a big void and that's pretty much where all S and B data lives.

[00:01:49] Um, so it started off. Kind of, it's just a joke internally that I really wish there was a company like QuickBooks that I could partner with and [00:02:00] buy media through that would allow me to find not only the scale of audiences that Intuit has, but also the depth of knowledge about how those, how those businesses are operated and run.

[00:02:10] And then that joke kind of became a realization that it is a need for other advertisers that Intuit could very much fill and very uniquely fill as well. Just considering kind of. The breadth and depth of information that we have, um, on, on our small business owners. Um, so that was the start of it. Um, but of course, you know, we wanted to make sure that we were doing it in a way that was beneficial to our customers, um, and done in a privacy safe way.

[00:02:38] So that was kind of the start of the journey was just the realization that we had something that advertisers would be interested in, but we also wanted to make sure that it was something that benefited our customers as well.

[00:02:47] Damian: That void that you talk about in the middle between enterprise level data and consumer data is quite surprising, isn't it? That there wasn't anything there for those small businesses. I know that 99 percent of all businesses are [00:03:00] SMBs. So that's a huge, uh, yeah, that's a, that's a huge amount of, uh, data that's not being used.

[00:03:09] So was it a surprising moment when, when, when you go, when you saw that and you thought, Oh, this is an opportunity.

[00:03:15] Dave: Yeah, I, you know, there are small pockets of data where you can get very narrow in, it's just not scalable. So that was the sort of challenge. So you can go to a lot of individual professional sites. But the reality is the world of media is not built around the business that you run, it's built around you as a person.

[00:03:31] So stitching those two parameters together, because, you know, as QuickBooks growth, We're looking for specific types of business problems. And, you know, a lot of these small business owners are not active on professional networks. Um, if they have profiles there, they're not looking at them on a regular basis or updating them.

[00:03:51] Um, so they, they kind of become. In the shadows, like the S and B part of the data and the targeting capabilities and the need state from the business that they [00:04:00] run sits behind their sort of consumer profiles. So I think it was a surprise when I first joined, but. Logically, after a little while, I was like, okay, that makes sense of why we're not able to find the business traits and qualities that we are able to.

[00:04:18] Damian: Yeah, that makes sense. The

[00:04:20] Ilyse: Now, how would you go about like describing the value of these small businesses and the data that their advertisers are trying to use to reach this audience?

[00:04:31] Dave: Yeah, um, so great question. And there's, there's a couple of different layers of sort of knowledge that we have on our, on our customer base, and we're not unlocking all of those just yet. So we want to, again, going back to the want to do what's right by our customers, we want to make sure that. All the information that we're collecting is something that they would expect us to collect, that they have full control over their ability to participate in this, and that we're only partnering with advertisers that, um, you know, have the best [00:05:00] intent for, for our customers.

[00:05:02] With that, uh, we are layering on top of ad buys, data that seems to already exist in the market, but is much more accurate. So that was one of the sort of uphill battles that we've had in the early stages of this. So things like industry, age, revenue, employee count, these are things that on the surface appear to exist in other third party data sources, but You know, again, being on the other side of the buying of this one, I see how wildly off some of those data sources can be and the assumptions that they have about a small business.

[00:05:34] So what we're adding on to that is just a very, very, um, deterministic one to one knowledge and accuracy that didn't exist. So we eliminate a lot of waste that comes with using some of the other data providers or even just kind of doing broad market advertising. So that's kind of the main value prop.

[00:05:54] That said, we are working with our legal and privacy team. And our [00:06:00] executive sponsor is actually the head of privacy. So that should tell everyone a little bit about how serious we're taking this. But we're also thinking about with our customers, what value can we add to them if we continue to go into what we're calling transactional type data, if we're able to go the next step deeper.

[00:06:16] And the reason for that is every business. on the surface may look the same in an industry size employee count, but how they run their business could be very different. So if you're a construction company, that's in the same region as another construction company, roughly same revenue, roughly same employee count doesn't mean that you invest completely different in marketing.

[00:06:37] And you may be, Think about your supply chain very differently. What that allows us to do is actually find need states for our customers and be able to pair them with the advertisers that might be able to serve, um, solutions for them in those needs states. And so that's kind of the next wave that we're working on.

[00:06:52] It's something that we haven't done yet, but we're hoping to unlock for our advertisers.

[00:06:57] Ilyse: Yeah, that's definitely a good example. [00:07:00] Um, I feel like, In a, such a new kind of company like this, and I know you refer to you guys as like a retail media network, although you're not exactly a retail media, um, so it's, it's, it's definitely hard to kind of describe, I would assume, to other B2B businesses exactly what to do and how your like first party data And you essentially use QuickBooks, um, primarily, right?

[00:07:27] Um, how they can use that data to their advantage. Is there, like, another example that you can give how, um, advertiser would use your, your media network in order to, like, reach their audience? Heh

[00:07:43] Dave: you mentioned that, that, you know, we've, we've been using the term retail media network, but we're, we're very much not a retail media network. So we do not have owned and operated inventory and that's by design. Um, you don't start a business because you're passionate about bookkeeping in most cases.

[00:07:55] Um, so we're leaning into as a company, AI and, and, [00:08:00] um, automation to make sure that we're trying to reduce the amount of time that That a customer has to spend in our platforms in order to, um, to get their work done. So throwing ads in there will slow that down. It's not something that, you know, someone that's already paying for subscription would, would want to have that said, there are potentially ways that we've been looking at that. Provide additional value to that. That said by not having owned and operated, I think that we accidentally fell into what I'm calling kind of the next wave of retail media network. So we are more of an audience network that can be layered on to any part of your ad buy that's programmatic. So we have partnerships with the trade desk, with physio, with DV360, with meta, and we We are agnostic to inventory source.

[00:08:44] We just allow the advertiser, whatever their KPIs are across the board to just get more efficient and more focused on just the right people. And that's been, um, again, slightly different than what most retail media networks are going, but attending a bunch of [00:09:00] conferences, that seems to be really the hot topic of your own and operated inventory is great.

[00:09:04] It is the last. bottom, bottom, bottom of the funnel that you're able to, um, that you're able to really leverage. We are able to address full funnel campaigns with that audience targeting.

[00:09:18] Damian: That's very interesting. What kind of advertisers in this space are keen to take advantage of this opportunity to reach these millions of small businesses?

[00:09:29] Dave: Yeah, it's so that's been one of the larger surprising things when we started this up. So we built this assuming insurance, banking, credit cards, those would be the The sort of the very close in some of the software SAS providers. Um, that has been very true for us that that's where we're seeing a lot of interest, but we've had a lot of consumer brands coming to us.

[00:09:48] There seems to be a wave of interest in small business as a segment for a lot of advertisers. So we've had one of the largest CPG brands approach us. I worked at Method for [00:10:00] a while, so I know firsthand that shipping a bottle of hand soap is very expensive, and it's only a 3 bottle of hand soap, but it's mostly water and fragile, so you're upside down in your e comm costs.

[00:10:12] So the area where e comm works really well for CPG brands is concentrates in large formats, and the normal consumer do not want that. It is very profitable to go that direction. Um, so they reached out to us, same thing with one of the largest beverage companies reached out to us cause they want to be in more restaurants, more independent restaurants than the chain restaurants.

[00:10:30] So it's been a little surprising across the board of, you know, who's really approached us. Um, and, and some of these non traditional sort of B2B, as you would think about it are really the ones that have a ton of interest.

[00:10:42] Ilyse: yeah I must say. It seems like B2B is on like some kind of upward trending line right now. Um, we are seeing like a, an increase across like all channels, I feel like, maybe. Like, um, maybe that's due to like, I don't know, the rise of like [00:11:00] LinkedIn or like, um, just more businesses coming forward. And being created in general, maybe the pandemic even, I don't know, it's, it's curious because I do feel like even like channels like CTV, for instance, there's a lot more like B2B kind of marketing happening.

[00:11:16] Is

[00:11:16] Dave: Yeah. We're seeing the same thing and we're excited that we're kind of showing up at the right time for that. You know, I think our hypothesis on that is, um, very much correct. There was a small business boom during the pandemic, but a lot of advertisers I think have, have started to kind of run out of scale and saturation that they can have amongst the sort of consumer.

[00:11:36] And this is an entirely new audience with tremendous spending power that you can talk about different products that you wouldn't want to put, you know, on a Super Bowl spot. You know, the CPG brand is not going to run a large format concentrate ad in the Super Bowl, but there's now a new path and a new audience that is kind of untapped.

[00:11:54] And we're also seeing that also in the marketing space. So a lot of the major social networks and ad providers. [00:12:00] Their next target is all the S and B's because they've got so much share of wallet amongst the enterprise level brands that their, their next growth area is going to have to come from the long tail of S and B's.

[00:12:10] Um, so we're happy because we truly feel like we are the most accurate and best way to reach those S and B's. Um, so we're, we're hoping that, that, you know, everything kind of comes together.

[00:12:20] Damian: Is there a, is there some kind of nuance in terms of the channels that advertisers trying to reach businesses use versus, you know, more traditional, you might say consumer channels? I mean, they're obviously consumers. are also business owners and business owners are consumers. But is there a different sort of way that you're thinking or the advertisers are thinking about leveraging, um, the data that you're providing?

[00:12:48] Dave: We've not seen that. So kind of going back to the challenge that brought this whole thing to life is that The the line between them as a small business owner and them is just a person [00:13:00] is almost indistinguishable between the two of those. So The nice thing is because it's programmatic wherever they happen to be We're able to find them and able to serve them relevant advertising at that point I think that Um, it really the, the majority of channel selection will come down to the objective of the campaign.

[00:13:22] So we had a major global logistics company that was very focused on brand advertising and we were running them on connected TV with Vizio. We were running them on some digital video formats. We had another SaaS provider that was very focused on cost per leads. And we. Much heavier on the social and programmatic, uh, display side of things.

[00:13:41] So it's really more of what's the objective dictates kind of the channel mix itself. But, um, in terms of are there subtle nuances or specific places we go? Not really. We kind of just follow, follow the sort of, um, friends that we're seeing with the, with those small business [00:14:00] owners.

[00:14:00] Damian: Totally makes sense.

[00:14:01] Ilyse: Now, you've described SMB MediaLabs as the next wave of retail networks, which is very interesting. I like that kind of quote right there. Um, you've also said it's like a more open network than some others. Can you describe why that is?

[00:14:20] Dave: Yeah, so I would say we're not the next wave. I think that we are ahead and riding the next wave. So I don't say that we are defining it by any means, but, um, we were open in the fact that we're not relying on our own inventory. So we can go. Pretty much anywhere. Um, and if an advertiser comes to us and they have a specific DSP that they really want to work with, we can onboard those DSPs if they're not already in our network.

[00:14:44] So a big part of our, of our product is really making sure that we have the largest breadth of inventory sources and partnerships available, that we can develop campaigns in partnership with the advertiser and the agencies that actually, um, can [00:15:00] span wherever they believe that their customers are, whatever their objectives are.

[00:15:03] So that's, that's the open part. Of what we're doing. Um, and because of that also, like there's just easier capabilities for them to, to measure it because they're already using a lot of the DSPs and platforms that they're, they're using for their normal campaign. So we're not any sort of walled garden that has hidden metrics behind the scene, which I know is also, you know, a challenge for a lot of retail media networks as well.

[00:15:26] Ilyse: That's awesome. How do you, going about your own advertising for this network, how are you basically scaling it?

[00:15:34] Dave: Getting the word out and, uh, getting people to, uh, to, to try it. So we have had, um, I think we're, we're in, in month eight now, and we've had a number of large advertisers come in the data's, the data and the audience targeting is performing extremely well, that is something that, um, was a concern of mine going in that, you know, a, is there enough people that are interested in S and B's and we already [00:16:00] talked about how that, you know, You know, has been something that we've been able to check that box and say, yes, there is a ton of interest from advertisers across the board.

[00:16:07] The second one was, have I convinced myself that our audience quality is as good as it is. Um, and the data that's come in as, as shown that it's, it's performing extremely well, both on brand metrics and on cost per action. So, uh, our goal right now is to just have as many conversations and just do as many tests as possible.

[00:16:26] And let the advertiser see how well it performs comparatively to other things.

[00:16:31] Damian: I guess the next question would be how well does it perform? You know, what kind of data insights are you getting back to provide to advertisers?

[00:16:39] Dave: Yeah, so, uh, we are seeing so we've done some disco studies on brand ones, and we're seeing on average 30 to 40 percent increase in brand metrics, which is huge. That was not that's actually outside of what we anticipated and hoped for on that one. And I think probably the big one was when we've run some cost per lead campaigns for SAS [00:17:00] cloud service.

[00:17:01] We cut their CPLs by 75%. So just eliminating the inaccuracy and focusing your spin on deterministic direct connections with those advertisers or with those, with those customers as has worked extremely well.

[00:17:18] Damian: Yeah, that's a high fidelity audience. I, I, I like that phrase.

[00:17:23] Damian: I guess we have to have a question about ai, right? We have to talk about ai.

[00:17:44] Um, you know. In April, Intuit introduced an AI assistant to its core product. Products, I should say, um, in TurboTax. It's going to shorten the time to file taxes, credit karma, users [00:18:00] get personalized financial information advice, I should say, and users can generate marketing content in MailChimp. You know, how are you and SMB Media Labs using AI?

[00:18:09] Yeah,

[00:18:13] Dave: we built, we are a managed service. So we are doing the buys and executing for the time being. That is something that is very difficult to scale because for us it is kind of core to Google. Make sure that the, that the media that we're buying, not only is targeted, but it's performing.

[00:18:29] So there's a lot of optimizations that we want to be able to make recommendations on and act on. Uh, it's hard to do that. You know, our goal is to have hundreds of advertisers. You can't optimize hundreds of advertisers. So there are tools that we are bringing on board that actually use AI to understand how the various campaigns are performing, are able to serve up some sort of triggered recommendations based off of that.

[00:18:51] Um, and that allows our team to scale and really make sure that everything that we're doing is. hitting the benchmarks and exceeding the benchmarks that we want them to do [00:19:00] across all of our advertisers.

[00:22:09] Damian: One question I guess from that is, you know, the actual marketing of the SMB, uh, the actual marketing of SMB MediaLabs, how do you think about that?

[00:22:21] Dave: Uh, well, the marketing of SMB Media Labs is a lot of. Conversations like this. Um, so I'm a little bit on a podcast tour. I am, I'm going to be at Cannes. So we do have a space in the media link to a can where we're going to be having a number of meetings, speaking engagements. Um, it's, it is different enough that it does require a little bit of explanation and, you know, in full transparency, there's an added hurdle that as it stands now, we are a managed service.

[00:22:45] So, um, it is. It adds complexity to what a traditional we are not doing the model where we just park our data and anyone can go and pull it like through a marketplace. We still have to control. And that's that's because we want to have the highest bar possible for how we [00:23:00] control our data. So it just takes more conversations.

[00:23:03] But, uh, You know, we are doing some programmatic media buying and we're doing some digital out of home in the elevators of a lot of the major agencies in New York City. So we're, we're trying to really focus in on, on both the agencies and the advertisers that would be interested in something like this.

[00:23:19] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:23:24] Ilyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Cat Vessey and Sydney Cairns.

[00:23:30] Damian: And

[00:23:30] remember I'm Damian.

[00:23:32] Ilyse: I'm Elise.

[00:23:33] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:23:38] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

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