The Mission of the ABA and PT Podcast is to record and document the work and journeys of major contributors to ABA and Precision Teaching, and thereby stand for incorporating standard measurement and the use of the standard celeration chart into our work and lives. Our pledge is to honour those who have dedicated their life to this field such that my daughter and those that need it, benefit from science and all our field has discovered, that is at risk of getting lost. And the bottom line is that we all need it.
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Episode #16 – Try the Chart - Dr. Hank Pennypacker
Épisode 39
vendredi 9 juin 2023 • Durée 54:16
Dr. Hank Pennypacker, a pioneer in the Science of Human Behavior, shared profound insights about the standard celeration chart in amongst the many wisdoms he describtes in this podcast. Despite its limited adoption, he emphasized the immeasurable value of the chart to those wanting to make accurate predictions about behavior.
Dr. Pennypacker passionately advocates for the widespread use of precise measurement to fields involving human behavior and why percent correct lacks the arguably greatest contribution of B.F. Skinner's, being Rate of Response, and Hank's contribution of celeration as a measure to predict future performance.
He also talks about his contributions to identification of early breast detection through this program, Mammacare.
Join us as we delve into the Hank's 6 decade career in Behavior Science and his discussions of the Standard Celeration chart in his advice to Try the Chart!
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41:05 "The power of the measurement system lies in the recognition of the fact that the frequency is the correct measure of behavior." - Dr. Hank Pennypacker
49:26 “It's not easy. I don't pretend otherwise but that doesn't make it invaluable.” - Hank Pennypacker
49:51 “If you're in any kind of activity in which you have to anticipate what's going to happen, and what's going to happen is behavior, you're better off if you're using a device which allows you to make accurate predictions.” - Dr. Hank Pennypacker
Episode #15 - The Carolyne Letters with Dr. Abigail Calkin
Épisode 38
jeudi 27 octobre 2022 • Durée 02:06:14
In this episode, we take a quick side step from ABA to talk about one of the most hotly debated issues in the US right now and one that Precision Teacher Abigail Calkin writes about in her book, The Carolyne Letters; A Story of Birth, Abortion, and Adoption .
In this episode, Abigail poses questions and talks about the complexities of pregnancy and parenthood and the impact those complexities have on family units.
Abigail Calkin, a published author and a precision teacher, will shed some light on the choices each woman faces when she becomes pregnant. In her book, Abigail explores the three choices a young mother,Amelia, faced.
The book is divided into three sections, and in each section, Amelia, the young mother in the narrative, writes letters to the three Carolynes in the story explaining her choices.
Abigail also discusses how she used the celeration chart while she was pregnant to count fetal movements, and a whole lot more!
I hope you enjoy this wonderful author talking about The Carolyne Letters.
Episode #14 - The Truth Behind Neuropsychological Testing with Dr. Kimberly Berens
Épisode 37
mercredi 19 octobre 2022 • Durée 01:27:29
Be prepared for Dr. Kimberly Berens’ extraordinarily important message regarding learning disabilities!
In the US, 20% of kids are considered to have a learning disability of some kind. Dr. Berens explains in Episode 14 of the podcast that only a tiny fraction of children—less than 1%—have a real neurological impairment. This suggests that more kids are being labeled with learning disabilities that are Explanatory Fictions, as opposed to measuring learning across time and assessing for skill deficits that account for why a child struggles with reading or other learning.
This episode explores the reasons behind children's academic difficulties, the truth behind neuropsychological testing, and the damaging effects that the DSM-5 learning disability labeling of children has. Dr. Berens explains that labels that children are given are predominantly a result of ineffective instructional environments as opposed to a made up reason for what is occurring in the brain. Most importantly, Dr. Berens explains what we can do to disrupt this vicious cycle and improve children's learning abilities.
She explains that for the majority of children, “school does not work” and why. She makes it clear that she is not blaming teachers, but rather that teachers need explicit training in behavior science and effective teaching practices.
You’ll hear Dr. Berens' real anger at a professional that after testing a student’s performance on one occasion, then makes a profound leap to explain that the reason for the performance is due to something in the brain that cannot be measured, and that there is no scientific support for the label given to the child.
Dr. Berens then reviews a case study of a student with a Neuropsychological Report versus the type of report that a Precision Teacher would produce, to look at skill deficits a child has to account for their reading challenges, as opposed to a hypothetical construct of why the student performed badly on a test one time.
Dr. Berens is a scientist-educator, a precision teacher, and the founder of Fit Learning. She is also the author of the book, Blind Spots: Why Students Fail... and the Science that Can Save Them. Her stand is to transform education on the planet through the use of behavior science, and how that science can change the world.
HIGHLIGHTS
RESOURCES
QUOTES
Episode #13 - All in with Patrick McGreevy - Part 2
Épisode 36
vendredi 30 septembre 2022 • Durée 01:14:15
This is Part 2 of Patrick McGreevy's ABA & PT Podcast interview.
In this episode, we'll learn more about how the standard celeration chart works and how a slight difference in its size can cause the frequency multiplier to be distorted. Patrick emphasizes the benefits of using frequency data over percentage correct, among other things. He also recalls the final moments of Ogden's life.
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If you were Dr Ogden R. Lindsley’s student, you were either all in or you weren’t, because precision teaching necessitates passion, dedication and an adherence to B.F. Skinner’s discovery of Rate of Response as the primary and most sensitive measure of behavior.
From the first time Patrick McGreevy heard Ogden speak he was “all in”!
This is Part 1 of the recording of my interview with Dr Patrick McGreevy, or Brother Pat as Og called him. In part 1 he shares how he fell in love with teaching children with severe disabilities, which led him to change his career path from psychology to special education.
Patrick goes on to share what he learned from Ogden back when he was a doctoral student, his dedication to teaching others and passing on Og’s commitment to the Standard Celeration Chart - precise measurement and closely attending to the learner. He acknowledges all the mentors he’s had along the way - the Long Timers as he calls them - who have been and continue to be all in!
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Precision teachers, according to Jack Auman, have an impact on students similar to the Butterfly Effect because of the small changes that can have enormous positive outcomes.
In this episode, Jack talks about his journey to Precision Teaching after he met Steve Graf. From scorekeeping at a baseball game together to the adventures that they had together. He goes on to discuss Steve's brilliant ideas and how he used his own programming knowledge to bring them to life.
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This episode tells the story of a humble, passionate, and inspiring human being who gave his all for the science of Precision Teaching. Dr. Carl Koenig was instrumental in the creation of the behavior chart, now called the Standard Celeration Chart and the foundations of Precision Teaching. Carl spent over a decade of his life working alongside Dr. Ogden Lindsley through the highs and lows of shaping Precision Teaching in the 60s and 70s.
In this episode, he will take us on a journey beginning with his early work experience at Kansas University, how he met Ogden, the development of precision teaching, and their efforts to spread the work to professionals and parents, amongst other things.
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#9 Richard McManus - Making the Impossible Possible Precision Teaching
Épisode 32
mercredi 13 avril 2022 • Durée 01:04:57
Richard McManus is the owner of The Fluency Factory, a PT learning lab in Massachusetts, and has been a Precision Teacher for more than 4 decades. In this episode, Richard recounts his life experience, beginning with his father's early influence, and his progressive use of inclusivity. He also talks about the individuals that have inspired him to advocate for the underprivileged. With his courage and resilience, Richard has influenced so many teachers, parents, and students. He firmly believes that we can make the impossible possible if we put our hearts into what we do and have the highest of expectations for the learners we work with and advocate for.
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#8 Michael Maloney - How to be An Educational Ninja using Direct Instruction and Precision Teaching
Épisode 31
mercredi 23 mars 2022 • Durée 01:37:27
Michael Maloney is a researcher and educator with over 50 years of combined experience in both private and public schools. Together with his colleague, Eric Haughton, he integrated behavior analysis, direct instruction, and precision teaching into a highly effective learning approach.
Michael takes us on a journey through his life, from being fired for disrupting the learning system at the school where he worked to meeting remarkable individuals that contributed to his incredible work.
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HIGHLIGHTS
00:01:24 Michael’s childhood and why he decided to become the first teacher in the family.
00:05:07 His educational background.
00:12:40 Why he got kicked out of school and what he did after.
00:17:39 Combining instruction and precision teaching with Eric Haughton.
00:28:35 Integrating behaviour analysis, direct instruction, and precision teaching.
RESOURCES
#7 Clay Starlin - Incorporating Precise Measurement into Education
Épisode 30
samedi 5 mars 2022 • Durée 01:25:54
It’s an absolute honor to have one of the pioneers of precision teaching on the show, Dr. Clay Starlin. You’ll hear in this episode how he paved the way for teachers and disenfranchised children as he takes us on a journey through the profession that he has loved for nearly five decades of his life.
You'll learn about his childhood, his own struggles with reading as a child, and what ultimately motivated him to focus on improving student outcomes through the use of precise measurement. He also talks about how he developed verbal behavior around precision teaching and how continus to assist teachers in understanding how to deliver effective instruction and achieve mastery with their students, and so much more.
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49:17 “It's interesting to me to have lived in the times of illegal abortion, legal abortion, and now we're moving into illegal abortion. And frankly, I don't think that's going to work.”
55:09 “The issue is not pregnancy. The issue is [that] society is changing, and it's changing dramatically.”
58:14 “We're only one race, it is the human race.”
59:15 “Our whole worldwide culture is changing.”
59:56 “Choice is there, and you can choose to have a child—keep the child and give the child up for adoption, or have an abortion.”
1:00:00 “If abortion is illegal, there is no choice. There's only one option. And you have to go with that option. And to me, that's not what a democracy or Republicans are about.”
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3:19 The truth behind neuropsychological testing and learning disabilities.
6:11 The types of assessments that neuropsychologists conduct.
8:04 What distinguishes a scientific method from an Explanatory Fiction?
21:48 Common forms of disabilities, backed by neuroscience.
28:21 Why does Dr Berens think school is ineffective?
51:51 The application of behavior science to video game creation.
54:37 Imitation is the main method by which infants learn; it is not a genetic trait.
1:00:17 What can we do to change this vicious cycle?
1:17:41 Scientific illiteracy: The difference between neuroscience and neuropsychology.
1:24:22 A sneak preview of what Dr Berens will discuss at the Annual Conference of the Standard Celeration Society in Denver in November 2022 as the keynote speaker.
3:40 “Whenever a child is referred for a neuropsychological evaluation, it's based on, more often than not, a teacher's observation of that child in her classroom.”
13:55 “People make a lot of money off of this kind of testing [neuropsychological] and these kinds of classifications, and schools get funded based on kids having these kinds of classifications, and those people get paid to supposedly treat these kinds for disabilities, but they are not scientifically valid. They've never been validated in a scientific way. They're all hypothetical.”
19:46 “Performance and learning are two profoundly different things. Performance is a measure of a child's behavior at one time. Learning is the measurement of behavior over time. That's the only way learning can be evaluated. It's a process.”
23:02 “Not only do we have data from the United States on the profound ineffectiveness of this, but we have global data from across the globe, schools don't work for the majority of kids.”
25:17 Children learn how to cheat at a young age because, once again, schools do not care about the process. Schools care about the performance on one test, and then they move on.”
32:46 "So we know in behavioral science that learning is best defined as the change in behavior over a period of time.”
1:14:32 “Being a scientist is about telling the truth. Period. It's about finding an objective truth and then telling the truth about what was found.”
0:36 Pat goes on to discuss how he came to understand and appreciate Ogden's mission.
6:58 The scientific community's reluctance to use a standard celeration chart is explained.
10:39 Data's power: Frequency versus percent correct
25:26 The rationale behind why tolerating errors is viewed as a teaching opportunity.
28:26 Renaming the Y axis on the chart: Purpose and application.
34:00 Why does the correct size of the chart matter?
40:05 Pat reminisces about Og’s final moments.
47:43 About the upcoming new version of his book, Essential for Living.
52:39 Without hesitation: Pat defines the first opportunity probe.
1:01:19 Pat gives emphasis on frequency.
1:07:38 How long-timers like himself help the younger generation have a sense of connection.
05:57 "Science doesn't progress without standard measurement. You can't decide to measure things however you want to in whatever unit you want to. That has to be accepted by the scientific community. "
11:18 "You see, if you don't include those elements [occurrence of behaviour and time], then anything that you purport to be measurement is less sensitive to changes than it would be if you had included those elements."
16:21 "That is how a chart shows up, that you can immediately come in contact with the learning of that student because of how much information that our chat conveys. It's phenomenal."
18:22 "It's important to remember that when you go to percent, you lose fluency."
24:29 "There are certain things that you can practice over and over again for a minute or 30 seconds or 20 seconds or whatever, but certain things just aren't feasible."
07:41 “I wasn't particularly interested in teaching children to read. That didn't interest me. I was more interested in teaching daily living skills to kids that couldn't communicate, the kids that couldn't toilet properly, the children that didn't know how to feed themselves, and the children who had orthopaedic impairments. Those were the kids that really interested me.”
32:50 “You have to decide the context in which to teach it because a lot of kids with more severe disabilities don't experience generalization like the rest of us do, so you've got to teach it. You've got to teach the right skills—the skills that matter. You got to teach them into context. You see, and then you have to teach them the fluency. Yeah. And then you have to have the teaching procedures to get you there.”
2:03 How Jack's father instilled a love of math in him at a young age.
13:34 Three strategies that worked for him as a math teacher.
16:05 A little background on how he became interested in precision teaching.
27:20 Combocoach's goal and design.
32:02 The Typing Coach concept.
43:28 The PracticeSheeter.
49:05 What he discovered while assisting with Og's archives.
52:48 Steve thinking and looking at things differently.
08:02 “He [Prof. Frank Ciotola] brought to life a whole new dimension of math, where you could take an idea that you could have, and take the negation, and work with that negation with the laws of logic, and make a whole new geometry that was valid and applicable.”
19:39 “Steve had all these marvelous ideas, and I was lucky enough to learn enough programming to incorporate his ideas into our games. Checking my timeline, here's where we bridge into precision teaching or the standard celebration chart.”
3:15 Carl’s childhood and his early work experience.
6:57 How he met Ogden Lindsley and how he got to Kansas University.
8:45 The development of Precision Teaching.
22:09 About his master’s degree and dissertations.
29:01 Carl’s findings that behavior multiplies and divides.
32:33 Workshops and other tested publishing alternatives to spread the word about Precision Teaching.
38:00 What the Behavior Bank was and how the state of technology got in the way of what could have been a state of the art hub for knowledge about behavior.
42:36 Two other attempts to apply the science: learning screening and PT 2. (Squared).
39:12 “You don't really have a behavior problem. What you have is kids who aren't learning, and kids who aren't learning are not happy. So, you've got to create a learning environment, otherwise, you're going to have behavior problems.”
55:15 “Most of the children we see like my little guy from two years ago, who have problems with reading also have problems with their behavior.”
57:07 “We're going to have to figure out how do we embed the chart into things? Because without that, most of these programs that people are clinging to are just mumbo jumbo, they're not going to be very effective.”
59:03 “You really have to have high expectations, that is the key to any kind of progress your students are going to make.”
00:32:34 Why are teachers hesitant to use his method?
00:42:55 Installing the program on computers to help 20,000 kids.
00:53:19 How he influenced the Morningside Center’s program.
1:00:21 Why is the discipline not growing?
1:05:02 How Carmen Marcy reduced the recidivism rate.
1:24:19 How did our field get to the point where we've lost touch with some of our most effective tools?
31:07 “You're not going to get fired if a third of these kids don't learn to read this year. In fact, you're going to get rewarded, you're going to get another contract, you're going to get another year of pension, you're going to get a raise, you're going to get two months off in the summer. There's just no accountability in the system and it doesn't start and end with the teachers. It goes all the way to the top.”
33:16 “You can barely find an educational institution that teaches the chart, or that teaches direct instruction, or for that matter, even does a good job of teaching behaviour analysis. I mean, I see these graduates, so they got master's degrees and their BCBAs and 28% of them ever use either direct instruction or precision teaching.”
1:01:21 “Essentially, until we can do things that people don't have to go sit and listen to somebody and get involved in what I call drive-by consulting, there's no accountability.”
1:02:49 “If you gave the teachers the opportunity to learn these skills, which they've never had, they would do a much better job. If they learn direct instruction only, they do a good job. If they paired that with precision teaching, they do an excellent job.”
30:43 “I have not given up on the public sector, because I think that is the place where the disenfranchised children of the world need to be supported because they don't have the resources to go to a private tutoring.”
32:02 “There needs to be a system that says, if your students are consistently not learning, there needs to be some correction. And you must accept it, or you must leave the profession.”
1:02:40 “If you invest all your energy on people they go away, but if you invested in policies, policies have a tendency to stay.”
1:06:09 “All educators agree that we want to get kids to mastery, but we don't agree on how to define it.”
1:15:03 “In loving relationships, if you don't have the truth, you're in trouble, and science is all about searching for the truth.”
1:19:02 “I have all these quotes from people saying, simplicity is genius, and on and on, but it really is hard to make it simple.”
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