Nancy and Sarah discuss the very online experience of watching both the murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson and the capture of the man named as his killer, Luigi Mangione. We discuss the memes, conspiracies, tasteless jokes, and crushes on the alleged shooter. Did the tragic incident offer a pressure-valve release to Americans frustrated by a limping healthcare system, or is it an inflection point for something more dangerous? And how should we feel when murder becomes entertainment?

Also discussed:

* The Daniel Penny verdict

* The floating-in-space feeling between election and inauguration

* Activism ain’t what it used to be

* “Will you forgive me for loving to say his name?”

* Piers Morgan, the Jerry Springer of political shows

* “The brain is a dangerous thing”

* Bonnie & Clyde and glamorous crime

* “Desire knows no ethics”

* The detail that helps Luigi Mangione’s capture in a McDonald’s make sense

* Caitlin Flanagan, the master storyteller

* “What will survive of us is love”

* Did Sonny Liston take a dive?

Plus, Sarah’s brain makes “popcorn” in the middle of the night, Nancy thinks CBD makes her sing better, Ben Dreyfuss talks with Taylor Lorenz (let’s listen), and more!

As the poet says, what will survive of us is love. As the podcasters say, we survive only if you become a paid subscriber

Smoke ‘Em welcomes favorite repeat guest and self-proclaimed “absolute newspaper romantic” Matt Welch. He talks with Nancy and Sarah about whether legacy papers can ever make a comeback and how they ignore local news at their own peril, plus whether civility might be on the upswing.

Also discussed:

* Pink hair don’t care

* How the Los Angeles Times “changed the physical landscape of the West.”

* Scott Jennings joins the editorial board at the LA Times. And?

* “Like perestroika, incivility starts in the home”

* They’re still counting votes in California!

* Is activism dead or just sleeping?

* “Throw any Russian in a skirt at Hegseth and he’s going to loosen his tie”

* “A dark sky had fallen over Nantucket, Mass., on Saturday evening when President Biden left church alongside his family after his final Thanksgiving as president …”

* Meghan McCain, flashpoint

* “Mono-politics is bad for governance”

* Maybe people should disengage from politics and take up streaking and fart books?

* People who voted for Kamala, but were pulling for Trump?

* Nancy thinks “raw-dogging” means …

* Sarah interviews Ken Burns, American treasure

Also, a wretched New York Times “Ethicist” question, thoughts on why Biden pardoned his son, dick-shaped cookie cutters, and much more!

Greetings from Nancy’s 31st hotel room! Our roving reporter is on the scene in Asheville, North Carolina, where she gives Sarah the scoop on hurricane damage, what the politicized coverage has gotten wrong, and why it’s good to live near churches when catastrophe strikes. The two of them talk Ted Cruz vs. Colin Allred, as well as Kamala Harris vs. Bret Baier. Then it’s on to the New York Times’ latest story on University of Michigan’s DEI double-down.

Also discussed:

* What up with those shower half-doors?

* Fewer “talking points” Kamala, more Feisty Kamala

* Name someone more weasely than Ted Cruz. We’ll wait …

* “Whore’s bath”???

* FEMA controversy = not that controversial

* Does DEI cause plane crashes?

* How long will colleges ignore the ROI?

* Anatomy of Lies: Next week’s topic?

* What does it say about us that we love exposing liars?

Plus, the problem with the docu-series, the man who puts Sarah to sleep every night, Nancy needs a bath, and more!

Nancy here. Among the things I learned reading Sophie Scott’s fabulous, super-smart and sexy new book, The Brain: 10 Things You Should Know: The brain itself has no feeling, I could be poking your exposed brain with my fingers (though I wouldn’t!… I don’t think) and you’d be like, “Pass the salt, please.” That everything we experience is the brain’s best guess at what is out there. And that while your body constantly renews itself - the lining of your gut in 2 - 4 days; all your red blood cells in 40 - there is one and only one body part you keep from birth to death.

"I am also interested in the expression of emotion in the voice, especially laughter,” writes Scott, Professor of Cognitive Neuroscience and director of the Institute for Cognitive at Neuroscience at University College in London, who joins me to talk about:

* “The good glue” that is laughter

* Why left-handed people pay attention to the world differently

* “Synaptic exuberance,” or humans’ terrific inventiveness and flexibility in adapting to different environments, all of which relies on our brains’ ability to change

* The endorphin rush that made Scott fall backwards into a bath while attempting to take off her coat

* The reason my brain once created the sound of a hard hat striking cement

And much more!

Intro/outro music: “Sleeper Awake” by Kelly Hogan

In this week’s episode:

* Nancy’s pro tips on trying to stitch herself

* The TikTok lady on the plane who claimed “that m***erfucker isn’t real” prompts a talk on the dangers of mixing Ambien and alcohol, the nature of religion, and what technology is doing to our sense of reality

* The New Yorker’s story on penis enlargement surgery makes Nancy yelp

* The REAL reason men want larger penises is…

* What is tetanus anyway?

* Nancy makes squoogy food sounds while talking about The Bear

* Sarah has a new reality show addiction

And much more!

The hosts behind the podcasts The Unspeakable and Smoke ‘Em were just sitting around being all heterodoxy when lo! The call came from the newly formed University of Austin: Want to come to Dallas to discuss the current state of media, whether feminism has impacted the desire to raise children, how we treat the work of artists whose behaviors we don’t agree with, and to answer student questions along the lines of, for instance, how are you a “feminine woman”? Yes please!

And so Meghan Daum, Sarah, and Nancy took the stage last Thursday at Old Parkland, an eye-popping and glorious campus founded in 1984 and now owned by real estate billionaire Harlan Crow (yes, that Harlan Crow). The conversation was hosted by the Mill Institute, an initiative that works in “educational settings to explore and challenge the entrenched thinking that leads to a breakdown of conversation on contentious issues.” Our moderator was Ilana Redstone, the faculty director of the Mill Institute and associate professor of sociology at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

See if you can guess which one of us remembered to take pictures!

No paywall because we love you AND because we trust you to become a paid subscriber right… now!

Nancy here. It was 15 minutes before sound check when my daughter and I decided to scoot around Old Parkland for a few minutes. I mean, the place is crazy gorgeous, very grand, we get a few steps out of the building and …

“Is that a bar?” my daughter asks. It is, right there on campus and a stone’s throw from where we will be speaking, and I mean, we do have 15 minutes.

It’s a Negroni for Tavie, a glass of rose for me, which we might have had plenty of time to sip but for the bartender, a guy who had many many stories to tell before making the drinks. Which was fine! He was entertaining and sweet and very funny, and if I had to lay money, I’d say he might also do stand-up (or should). As he went finally to grab the drinks, Tavie looked at who was at the bar with us, maybe 15 people, all dudes, in button-down shirts but not fancy.

“These guys are probably younger than me,” said Tavie, who is 33. Maybe so. Also, we were definitely not in Fort Greene.

“I like preppy guys,” she said. Me too.

We brought our cocktails with us for sound check. The camera guy told me I better keep my legs crossed, because the way the cameras were positioned, below the stage, made it, um …

“It is kind of Sharon Stone,” said Sarah, referring to the then-scandalous scene in Basic Instinct, and you know what? She was right!

Anyway, Stone is not the beautiful girl I referred to above. That would be my girl. Thanks for subscribing!

Nancy reports from storm-strewn Tulsa while Sarah reports from the future, where they discuss:

* The worst storm in Tulsa since 2007, not that the news is covering it

* Sarah has a new boyfriend, and he is exactly one day old

* The predictive genius of the movie Her

* Is it cheating if you’re fooling around with an AI?

* Do we have to tell our partners everything?

* The future where Siri becomes personalized, and we all get AI assistants

* The difference between “falling in love” and “being in love”

* A new season of The Bear is coming

* Is Nancy’s Native American accent offensive?

* Sherman Alexie’s The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian

* Black Mirror is back, baby!

* UATX event with Nancy, Sarah, and Meghan Daum

Good morning from the Delta Lounge at LaGuardia airport. Got here from the pad in Chinatown and through security (thanks, Clear!) in 25 minutes, a record. En route to Oklahoma, where this happened yesterday.

Also in Texas, where I’ll be headed Monday or Tuesday, and eventually on Thursday to Dallas, for an on-stage event with the University of Austin (yes in Dallas, though apparently there are more local digs in the works) with Hepola and Meghan Daum. The event is for students-only but UATX is growing - check them out.

I interrupt the usual Pie Talk by reading an essay as, alas, I have not been making much pie or anything else, the only thing in my refrigerator are condiments and Diet Coke and maybe a half-bottle of wine. At least Cameron Diaz’s has some salad…

So I mention in the episode a short book/manual/pdf thingie written by two genre authors about 15 years ago, about the ways and whys of self-publishing. I thought it was called “Be the Monkey,” and maybe it is, but alas, I cannot find it. What I can find are oodles of other books about self-publishing as it’s gone so mainstream and become for many so lucrative. I mean, hello Colleen Hoover, who knows the trick to success (and practices it better than any of us) is to write write write; there lies the radiance.

I did yesterday, over on Make More Pie, and the response has been gratifying. It’s the piece I read for you here. Go ahead and subscribe over there if you have not already, and thank you.

Onto the deliciousness! Do try this one, which is just in time for zucchini season, which lasts at least a week (though it won’t) and, I am told, freezes beautifully.

Must-Try, Super-Moist Zucchini Bread from Alexandra’s Kitchen

* Scant 2 cups (227 g) flour

* ¾ teaspoon baking powder

* ¾ teaspoon baking soda

* 1 teaspoon cinnamon, optional

* 1 teaspoon kosher salt

* 1 cup light (213 g) brown sugar

* ½ cup (100 g) granulated sugar

* ¾ cup vegetable oil

* 1 teaspoon vanilla extract, optional

* 2 eggs, lightly beaten

* 2½ cups grated zucchini (12–16 oz.)

* Preheat the oven to 350˚F. Grease a 8.5 x 4.5-inch loaf pan or a 10 x 5-inch loaf pan if using as much as a pound of zucchini (see notes above). For easy removal, line the pan with a sheet of parchment paper that hangs over the edges. 

* Whisk together first five ingredients. In a separate bowl, whisk remaining ingredients except zucchini. Add zucchini to the flour mixture and toss to coat. Add dry to wet and stir till until combined. Pour into pan. Bake until toothpick comes out clean, about 45 minutes to 1 hour. If you have an instant read thermometer, it should register 205ºF or above. (Note: Every oven is different, and different pans conduct heat differently —  be patient with the cooking. It may take 20-30 minutes more. With the longer cooking time, the bread shouldn’t burn, but if you are noticing the bread getting too brown, cover it with foil.)

* Let bread cool for 15 minutes in pan, then transfer to a cooling rack to cool completely before slicing. 

She also offers a step-by step video!

This week, we tackle:

* Elizabeth Gilbert’s para-social relationship with her fans

* Victimhood as status, online campaigns as feel-good mirage

* Will Sarah defend Elizabeth Gilbert? Yes, she will.

* Our Moderate MILF watched “The Idol,” and she has thoughts!

* Is HBO’s new show a critique of our hyper-sexualized world, or a victim of it?

* Which Britney Spears was the hottest Britney Spears?

* Tom Wolfe gives a wedgie to the world

* The greatness that is Rick Rubin

Nancy has messy beach hair, and Sarah is expanding her yin, so this week we tackle:

* The meltdown at CNN

* Who is Chris Licht, and no, it’s not L-i-c-k-e-d. (Note: This episode was recorded before Licht resigned on June 7.)

* Can cable news be saved?

* FAIR vs. FIRE, and the push from the center

* Walking is not exercise?!?

* A New York Times arts critic skewers Hannah Gadsby’s Picasso show

* Sarah and Nancy take the over-under on said show’s popularity

* The sleazy 90s bad-good thrill that is HBO’s The Idol

* The line between women’s sexual agency and women’s sexual exploitation

* The joys of local news

And much more!

Good Saturday morning, or I guess Sunday for you, from Buena Park, California, where the Knott’s Berry Farm rollercoaster shushes past every few minutes, accompanied by screaming. It’s like being in a Jordan Peele movie!

Being in Los Angeles reminds me of coming to Los Angeles, which reminds me of Tim and what, as a rural Oklahoma boy, he wanted with every meal, an item a New York City ate maybe twice a year, at the holidays, namely: Gravy.

But not this kind!

Cleaning out my mom’s pantry earlier this year I found a can of this and, more as a science experiment, decided to see what might be done with it. After adding salt, pepper, a splash of sherry and some butter, my best solution was to pour the stuff down the drain, really, save yourself the trouble (and the money!) and make homemade, recipe in episode notes.

As I relate in the episode, I met Tim Sampson on the PBS miniseries Roanoak, about the lost colony thereof. I am not sure whether this opening canoe scene is the same one I tell you about, the one where Tim saved me from drowning. But maybe!

I mention here that, after Tim and I fell in love, I followed him out to California. I bought a used station wagon in upstate New York and slept in truck stops on my way west. My first stop was somewhere west of Pittsburgh. It was late, and the all-night diner was open. I sat at the serpentine counter and ordered a grilled cheese and watched the waitress pout coffee for a man in a Carhartt (or similar) jacket and watched them quietly talk, watched as she lingered holding the coffee pot. My impression was that there was intimacy here, maybe not a relationship so much as a conversation picked up each time he stopped in. Or maybe it was just this one time. Maybe this was her gift, her job. I am sure I had some sort of reading material that I ignored as I watched them.

It was not until four years later that I wondered whether I always somehow knew the work I was headed for. By that time, the drive cross-country yielded what’s below.

Episode notes:

“The neighbors at Curson Avenue in West Hollywood were mostly Armenian, including the dozen or so housedress-clad older women in the apartment complex next door, women who would verily ululate at our fence when they realized we were having another get-together for two hundred. On the other side was a two-story complex where my brother’s friend Todd lived. Todd was a plumber who shared an apartment with his mother-in-law, an Armenian widow in black, and his SoCal, short-shorts-wearing wife. At twenty-four, Todd already had two kids, the first born blind. Todd spent every afternoon in our yard smoking pot, and that’s where he was when his wife banged open the screen door and stood on their balcony. 

“TAHD!” she screamed, “I’M PREGNANT AGAIN!” 

“Cool,” Todd squeaked, trying not to exhale. - “Meet the Neighbors,” from Forty Bucks and a Dream, Stories of Los Angeles, by Nancy Rommelmann

Dances With Wolves was a pretty massive cultural event, especially so for Native actors, as many more historical westerns were about to be made and provide employment.

Many of these young actors started down to LA from the rez, some of whom wound up hanging at the home in Hollywood where Tim and I lived with our baby girl.

These included Rodney Grant and the late Steve Reevis. Tantoo Cardinal had appeared in an earlier movie with Tim called War Party.

Will Sampson talking about how all the Indian heroes for kids are dead.

I’ve told the story (scroll down) of how my daughter Tafv wound up playing the part of “Gram” on Reservation Dogs. The below does not include her opening scene with Lily Gladstone:

Tafv went on to set decorate an independent film called Fancy Dance, which also stars Lily, who also stars in another movie you might have heard of.

You see this trailer, and her appearance in Rez Dogs, and it does not need to be explained that her acting is otherworldly.

Writing about Josh Drum and all the other young Native actors who passed through our home and whom I cooked and cooked and happily cooked for, in 1990-1992.

“Taking My Ex Back In (for His Own Good),” by Nancy Rommelmann (New York Times “Modern Love”)

I cannot carve out the video of Tim going “Mmmm!” but it’s here, scroll through. The second to last image is from our daughter’s wedding day, when we knew Tim was terminal.

Okay okay, let’s make some gravy. It’s flexible, just remember the ratios and up them depending on how much you want to make:

2 tablespoons fat or meat drippings, 2 tablespoons flour, 2 CUPS stock or other liquids. (I accidentally said tablespoons in the audio.) You can play with this in any number of ways; add some wine or sherry or fresh-chopped herbs. It’s super-easy and makes dinner festive!

Gravy

Add chicken fat or beef drippings to a frying pad. Heat over medium heat until bubbly. Using a rubberized whisk, add flour. Cook two minutes, stirring constantly, until flour takes on a bit of color. Add about a 1/4 cup of liquid and whisk, Mixture will seize up. Add another 1/4 cup and keep whisking until gravy loosens. Continue adding and whisking until you have a smooth gravy. Add salt and pepper to taste.

Gravy is very flexible! Using cream for up to half your stock in a beef gravy is lovely.

And please, I beg of you, send me your best biscuit recipes xx

Atlantic writer and essayist extraordinaire Caitlin Flanagan joins Smoke ‘Em to discuss:

* Who saw the ending coming?

* The “failson” that was Kendall, and why does Sarah want to fix him?

* The louche character of Roman, nihilist

* Shiv meets the fate of her mother, her worst fear

* Why the Greg theory of victory was never gonna wash

* A father’s love: The real narrative drive of the show

* “It takes three generations of American life to make a Shakespeare scholar”

* Freud’s repetition compulsion

* The funeral episode and the speech that was Nietzsche meets The Fountainhead

* Shiv and Tom: “A change has come / she’s under my thumb”

* That nasty Jeremy Strong profile in the New Yorker

* Why “privilege” is a shallow metric to talk about a human life

Topics covered:

* Which American cities have the highest percentage of people wanking at work, and evidence that we've entered “a golden age of masturbation” for better or worse

* Is Ozempic also an anti-addiction drug? The secondary benefits are compelling

* How is the Martin Amis novel Money like foie gras?

* Amis, who died last week, joins the list of voices we miss: Tom Wolfe, David Foster Wallace, Christopher Hitchens

* How Anna Nicole Smith shape-shifted into the American dream, and what it cost

* The documentary scene about Smith’s life that super-disturbed Nancy

* That time Sarah almost got plastic surgery

* The men in our hot boxes

And much more!

“The path to success may not always be easy, but with determination and courage, you can achieve your dreams.” So writes Melania Trump (or ChatGPT?) on page 34 of the memoir released yesterday by the former first lady. And we have questions! Such as, did any of the Big Five publishers bid on the book? Who wrote Melania’s memoir and has she seen it? Is Donald Trump, as portrayed here, actually made out of wood?

Also discussed:

* Every Ta-Nahesi Coates interview doesn’t need to be a tongue bath

* Nancy’s turning point with Palestinian protestors

* Will Melania’s pro-choice position sway undecided voters?

* But really: No way is Donald Trump pro-life

* Why did Skyhorse, which published Melania, demand $250,000 when CNN asked for an interview?

* “Who gives a fuck about Chrismas decoration?”: Melania caught on hot mic

* The explanation of that weird “I don’t care, do you?” fashion moment

* Point-counterpoint: Was Melania truly out of the loop on January 6?

* Melania’s plastic surgery

* The case for the middle ground on abortion

* How to get “maximum spillage and bobble”

Plus, the viral performance artist imitating trash bags, the disturbing face-eating disease Nancy brings up at the last moment (why?!), some love for FIRE, and more!

The writer/podcaster/documentarian Jon Ronson joins Nancy and Sarah, and they could not be more excited. Highlights include:

* Jon compliments Sarah, Sarah swoons

* The podcast inspired when Jon’s 11-year-old son asked if he knew PornHub

* Jon’s pronunciation of porn (“pohhhhhn”) and the strange spectacle of adult entertainment, including two-camera orgies and bespoke porn

* The sin of “both-sidesism”

* The hardest story Jon ever had to report

* Why Jon turned down Piers Morgan

* Jon’s new Audible podcast “The Debutante” about the mystery of Carol Howe, who may or may not have been able to prevent the Oklahoma City bombing

* Dial-A-Racist?

* Informants get $25 a day??

* “Things Fell Apart” season two on the way!

* The problem with defining people by small slivers of their lives

* A judge caught masturbating during trial and other untold stories

Go see Jon in London! He’ll be appearing at two events later this month, a May 24 “Things Fell Apart LIVE!” and a non-fiction writing workshop on the 28.

Things fell apart, but we try to put them back together. Why not become a paid subscriber?

In this exclusive North American interview, Wallis covers the following:

* The nature of false accusations, borderline personality diagnoses, and whether “mutual abuse” exists

* How live-tweeting the UK trial “fed a rapacious audience” that went tribal during the pandemic, and how his tweets got more than 10 million views

* Why “believe women” clashes with a journalist’s mandate to question everything

* Can you ever accurately litigate something that happened behind closed doors?

* How one bad marriage wound up in two different legal judgments

* Is the court of public opinion more important than real courts?

* Curious encounters with American food, including Blondies (“what are they?”) and half-and-half (a big thumbs-down)

* Jimmy Saville, Britain’s #MeToo poster boy

* The best Australian comedy series right now

* Period drama, by which we mean menstruation

* The greatness of Eurovision

* How many inches is Sarah’s integrity? The answer may surprise you!

We hustle out of love, but it never pays the bills. Consider becoming a paid subscriber.

In what might be Nancy’s favorite Smoke ‘Em episode to date, she and Sarah discuss:

* The mass shooting on May 6 in Allen, TX, where Sarah drove the next morning to check out the scene

* The problem of guns and the moral dilemma of violent real-life pictures: Do they numb us to reality or push us toward action?

* The subway killing of Jordan Neely, including attempts to paint his killing as racially motivated and politicians “gravestanding” for political goals

* Sebastian Junger on “Why Men Seek Danger” and maybe why you should, too

* Our coronation correspondent wonders: What up with Michael Strahan’s lisp?

* When you write something controversial and the subjects who once derided you start looking to you for answers

* The best survival movie Sarah has seen in years

* What is the sexiest quality in men?

* Sarah squirms in her chair as Nancy tells a near-death driving story from Panama

* How we deal with geniuses

And much more!

Also: Mail-call! Send us your compliments, criticisms, suggestions, and desires, and we’ll read them on an upcoming episode. smokeempodcast@gmail.com

We believe in reporting that is calm and compassionate and following our curiosity and our guts. Doing this podcast gets easier when you become a paid subscriber

* Who wore it best? Jared Leto’s catsuit, Chrissy Teigen’s negligee, Kendell Jenner’s bathing suit and other appropriate/inappropriate attire at the Met Gala and the Washington Correspondents’ Association Dinner

* The decline of BuzzFeed and Vice, and some love for Traffic author/media columnist Ben Smith

* The problem with women’s magazines, including the time Marie Claire inserted something disturbing into Sarah’s, um, opening

* The time Gene Simmons told Nancy he wouldn’t pay her

* Is Robert Kennedy Jr. a rancid narcissist or a troubled addict who deserves sympathy. And by the way, who is he?

* Some Robert De Niro love, and the dress Sarah wants to buy after watching Casino

* A lesson from Succession on undermining someone’s confidence at the last minute

* Sarah’s triumphant appearance on House of Strauss

And so much more!

Don’t forget (what we forgot to mention): This coming Sunday is the First Sunday Zoom! Deets sent to paying subscribers day-of. It’s not too late!

Become a paid subscriber, and find out who will show up to our Zoom hang in a cat suit.

Every affair has its origin story. At “Smoke Em,” ours began when Sarah wrote an article Nancy appreciated so much she called her on the phone. One year later, they’re together in Nancy’s Chinatown recording studio, teeing up episode 68, including:

* Tucker Carlson and Don Lemon getting the heave-ho on the same day and what this might portend for TV news

* You gonna trust Ben Dreyfuss?

* Blue checkmarks: Who cares?

* “Blocked and Reported” makes a case for why you might care

* Podcast names that (thank God) didn’t make the cut

* Amanda Fortini, awesome writer

* Cokie Roberts gives marriage advice

* Nancy’s fave part of “Smoke” so far (hint: it involves Sarah’s writing!)

* Meanwhile Sarah reminisces about … Pop Rocks?

* Nancy makes kick-ass fake animal noises

* What did we teach each other?

* That time David Sedaris tried to avoid writing in the first person

* Nancy’s least favorite words are …

* FIRE is the new ACLU

* Sarah gives Nancy an anniversary gift, firmly establishing who the wife is in this relationship, and who the husband.

And much more!

We’re sharing this entire episode with our listeners, whether they pay or not, but if you’d like to give us a gift, we have some ideas:

Thank you for coming along with us. Let’s keep going.

The Dalai Lama did a very weird thing. Harlan Crow’s memorabilia collection causes a national scandal. Over in Dallas, Sarah drives to Crow’s mansion to confirm that rich people do indeed buy the craziest things, while Nancy jets off to good old Portland and finds: So much! (The phrase “death eaters” is used.) Also: Sober sex, fancy hotels, and which of us is more likely to dance?

In the paid-subscriber bonus: MILF Manor finale! The greatness of Succession’s Matthew McFadyen, the Fox-Dominion lawsuit, and Sarah drops her head on her lap as Nancy uses a word you’re not supposed to use anymore.

ATTENTION: There will there be an IRL Smoke ‘Em meet-up this Sunday, April 23 in NYC, starting at 6pm. Details coming soon for paid subscribers.

Rumor has it there will be dancing. Will Nancy be imbued with grace from her current Barre3 addiction? Will Sarah bust out David Lee Roth moves? Come find out!

Confirm we aren’t ChatGPT bots with a groovy meet-up, but only when you become a paid subscriber.

When Laura McKowen landed at her first AA meeting, she sobbed as she told strangers how she’d placed her daughter in danger one night. Afterward, a woman in the audience approached her. “I’m a mother too, and I want you to know, you can push off from here.”

Push Off From Here became the title of Laura’s second book, following her much-beloved 2020 memoir, We Are the Luckiest. Laura is a friend as well as an inspiration. In addition to her Substack LoveStory, she also runs an online community for folks who want to get ahold of their drinking, called The Luckiest Club.

Laura and I talk about the false binary of “alcoholism,” why 12-step programs might be the biggest pain in the ass to ever save you, whether “love addiction” is a thing, and if substance abuse problems are better understood as a disease or a disorder, or neither But we talk about more than booze: Chasing boys and attention, body-image issues, quieting inner demons. Laura’s book is fundamentally about change — how hard it is, but how worth the struggle. Her story is testimony to the quiet and profound choice of owning your own life.

Special guest Matt Welch apologizes “for being a dude, for being taller, and that I’m not from Texas.” All of which is to say he can never replace the lovely Sarah Hepola as co-host. Nevertheless! Matt, editor-at-large at Reason and true-bluest member of the Fifth Column podcast (fight me), joins Nancy to talk about the tantrum Elon Musk threw last week when Substack unrolled a new feature called Notes, which appears to be a lot like Twitter, sans ads and tribal warfare. Musk wants to make Twitter “a common digital town square, where a wide range of beliefs can be debated in a healthy manner,” but he more than blinked at the advent of competition, making a bunch of bogus claims and planting his edge-lord boot between the platforms. This led to some very staunch allies, including Twitter Files news-breaker Matt Taibbi, to vamoose and declare Musk “a hostile rival.”

Then it’s on to Portland, where Nancy lived from 2004-2019 and a city where Matt has deep family ties. Both now wonder: Why does the news media in the Rose City hedge on certain subjects? And what up with local scribes declining to appear onstage with Nancy to discuss those hot topics?

Will there be a baseball segment? You bet! Topics include: taxpayer-funded ballfields (boo!); the Baseball Hall of Fame and the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum; the World Baseball Classic Ohtani-Trout nail-biter (video in episode notes), never-before-seen fan footage of Yankee Roger Maris breaking the home run record in 1961 (ditto), and Matt’s new Substack, “The View Level,” where he expresses opinions on all-things-baseball, including an iconic film that New Yorker writer Roger Angell declared his least favorite, although ballplayers loved it. “I remember coming out of a screening of that awful film and running into my friend and neighbor Mike Wallace,” Angell wrote. “‘Wasn’t that awful?’ I said, and then noticed he was weeping.”

It’s a vote for baseball, which is to say a vote for America’s old-school favorite past time, when you become a free or paid subscriber.

Good Sunday morning from the Outer Banks. The winds blowing across Ablemarle Sound are nearly always a loud and gigantic presence; you never feel alone. But this morning? All is calm. I can hear only the birds from where I am sitting, at a dining table covered with dozens of documents I’ve numbered 1 - 17 and lettered A - P, in the hopes that such organization and annotation will help me to stitch together what needs to be stitched. That, and/or I can accept the succor offered by Rick Rubin, in conversation with Bari Weiss on her Honestly podcast: to consider, when we are creating work and trying to be perfect, that “everything we make, we’re making as an offering to God. If you’re making it for God, you’re not taking any shortcuts.” It does not matter, or does not matter to me, whether you believe in God. The idea appeals!

I am deeply fortunate to be staying in a 5-bedroom home (it’s just me!) arranged by my friends Laura and Andy, who live next door. Here is the breakfast room:

And here, a bit of that wind. I love it here so much.

As mentioned in the audio, I have been extended this invitation because of a podcast, The Fifth Column to be exact, and the community of people that has grown around them in the past seven (!) years. These people include Laura and Andy, fans of the Fifth (and twenty year subscribers to Reason, where Matt Welch is editor-at-large). Back in 2021, my last scheduled stop of a 5,000-mile road trip was Miami, to see a live Fifth show, drive the guys to Key West, hang out for a few days, then zip home solo to NYC.

I didn’t have a place to stay on the trip’s last leg, and I am not sure how it transpired, but Laura and Andy invited me to stay.with them. Their house is right on the Sound. I fell in love. I realize we often say that about places we visit, but let’s just say, I can see spending time here…

Which I did last night at Laura and Andy’s, including with their friend Kim - ooh did we have a lot to talk about, including the move, happening even in Virginia, where Kim is a juvenile court judge, to get rid of cash bail entirely. Meaning, no matter what you do, stab me in the eye, run over my kid, the judge has the option to let you go free until trial. Having written about a case in which such a practice resulted in murder, I have a problem with repeatedly setting recidivistic violent felons free, a policy on which we will never all agree. Anyway! Also there last night was Andy’s friend Sludge, a name given to him his first week in college after he drank the backwash from the keg bucket (or whatever that’s called; I don’t drink beer). Sludge is a former engineer who now works in healthcare, but what does he love more than anything? BAKING! I have never engaged in a conversation like this, the words were spilling (the margaritas helped), we talked T45 flour and canele pans; he ate some shortbread (Pie Talk #7) I’d brought as a hostess gift, he gave me English muffins he made here because, of course, he travels with his starter.

The last person I spoke baking with was… drumroll please… Alison Roman. Anyone who’s spent a few minutes here knows I am a super-fan of Roman’s, that I bake her blueberry-cornmeal tart compulsively all summer (scroll down), that it was her tweet about induction ranges that convinced me to buy one. That she wound up at my apartment last month was… it was just right. We sat for several hours with a few others, talking media and eating a pie I’d made (of course I made her a pie, and no I still cannot recall what kind it was!), and when everyone else peeled off to the living room, she and I talked crusts, and cookbooks, and whose recipes work (hers, always) and whose sometimes do not. I wish there were a video of Roman making the salted chocolate pudding, but in lieu, let her tell you about her new book:

As mentioned, I once owned more than 100 cookbooks. Alas, these were sold to Powell’s when I left Portland, all that is but five: The Silver Palate Cookbook, which I rarely use and keep, maybe, for sentimental reasons, including a note I wrote in the back when I was a few months pregnant; New York Cookbook by Molly O’Neill, Maida Heatter’s Book of Great Chocolate Desserts, in which I’ve tucked the handwritten thank you note Heatter sent me after I gave the book a nice review in Bon Appetit (I mean…), Tartine (are you sensing a dessert theme?), and How to Be a Domestic Goddess: Baking and the Art of Comfort Cooking, by Nigella Lawson, whose late-night snacking videos my daughter used to watch obsessively, to the point where she said, “I feel like she’s another mom to me.” More moms, more snacking, what is not to like?

I have not yet made Roman’s a bowl of salted chocolate pudding so cannot tell you what I might change (likely nothing).

I can tell you I learned, because she told me in the book’s “Ingredients” introduction, to not add more salt to her recipes; that she’s already done that, which is good for me to know as I almost always add more salt than called for; your cookies will thank you if you do. I can also tell you, her “Equipment” intro convinced me to get a kitchen scale, look, it’s nine bucks.

Because everyone has been so nice to me, and because the sky is right now pink, this Pie Talk is free for all. May you, as Roman suggests, eat the bowl of chocolate pudding communally with friends, “when the lights are low and the music is loud.” xx

Succession’s final season debuted, and it’s already giving us memes (all hail The Disgusting Brothers). The tragic arc of Logan (Brian Cox) makes the cruel media mogul a tad sympathetic, while suck-ups like Roman (Kieran Culkin) and Tom (Matthew McFayden) have become the show’s most lovable characters. Is Succession the best show on TV? What else could top it?

Rising star Jonathan Majors, of Creed III, was arrested for domestic abuse, but the woman in question recanted her story. Is this justice, or the power of NDAs? The case will be a Rorschach for the peanut gallery, much like Gwyneth Paltrow’s ski trial. The glamorous star/wellness guru took to court this week, and boy, do folks love to hate her. What did the queen of Goop/jade eggs/bone broth ever do to you?

Movie critic A.O. Scott makes a classy exit from the NYT film desk, prompting a discussion of Hollywood’s decline and how anger was turned into clicks. What is the 1999 film that made Scott (and Sarah) burst into tears? Does — debate alert! — There’s Something About Mary hold up? Plus: Boogie Nights, 70s vs. 90s cinema, movies as sacred texts, Lex Fridman, the allure of fashion, what the hell is an “atelier,” and more importantly: Can it really rain frogs from the sky?

Ed. note: A distracting mechanical rumble happens three times during this pod. Best guess? This is Sarah adjusting her microphone, which she will not do again.

This week only, we’re opening our boudoir to (part of) our copious episode notes, to show non-paying subscribers what they’re missing. Have at it, friends.

Episode Notes:

Correction: Kathleen McCormack Durst (left, below) was a medical student and Robert Durst’s first wife. Susan Berman (right, below) was a journalist and author. The management apologizes for not naming them in the last episode.

* Q: How to make every day better by doing one simple thing?

* A:

“How do I listen to episodes on my podcast app?” (Substack)

It will be #HotChicksColdTakes redux when Liz Wolfe sits in during Sarah’s hiatus

My Favorite Murder. Not to Nancy and Sarah’s taste but extremely popular and one of the highest-earning podcasts …

Pie Talk #7: Shortbread

“Boar on the Floor,” a classic scene of villainy from Succession’s second season:

“On ‘Succession,’ Jeremy Strong Doesn’t Get the Joke,” by Michael Schulman (New Yorker)

“Jonathan Majors Arrested in New York After Domestic Dispute,” by Matt Stevens (New York Times)

“Jonathan Majors’ attorney claims woman recanted assault allegations after arrest,” by Christi Carras (Los Angeles Times)

“Jonathan Majors U.S. Army Commercials Pulled After Actor’s Arrest for Alleged Assault,” by J. Kim Murphy (Variety)

“With Few Able and Fewer Willing, U.S. Military Can’t Find Recruits,” by Dave Phillips (NYT)

“The Agony and the Ecstasy of Depp v. Heard,” by Sarah Hepola (Substack)

“Cowboys' Williams And Irvin Investigated,” by Sam Howe Verhovek (NYT)

“Women Recants Rape Tale” (LAT)

“In Cowboy Case, a Flagrant Foul?” by Howard Kurtz (Washington Post)

“Woman who says Cowboys owner Jerry Jones is her father now accuses him of defamation,” by Don Van Natta Jr. (ESPN)

“Mining a Few Thick Desires …” by Luke Burgis (Anti-Mimetic Substack)

“Gwyneth Paltrow ski crash trial: Paltrow testifies that the accident wasn't her fault” (NBC News)

There’s Something About Mary bears up upon repeat viewing for Nancy. Sarah, not so much. What say you, listeners?

Goop Wellness Jade Egg, $66, “final sale,” in case, you know, you were thinking of returning it …

You could buy a jade egg from Goop OR you could take that same money and buy a year’s worth of bonus episodes, Zoom hangs, premium extras, and belly laughs. Now which of these is better for your health?

“[The Russians] always claim to free us and to help us. They free us from our houses, schools, hospitals, from our families, from everything. They want to make us completely free, and maybe even from our bodies.” - Oksana Hutnyk

Nancy here. It is the 29th of September, 2024, and I'm going to take us back a few years to, February 24th, 2022, the day Russia invaded Ukraine and started a war that is ongoing. We are going to hear from two people in Lviv, Ukraine, and by way of introduction, I'd thought I’d tell you how I know them.

I wound up in Ukraine on March 4th of 2022, a little over a week after the war started. I got over there simply because I wanted to go. Michael Moynihan of The Fifth Column podcast was then at Vice News. He was going to be heading over and I said, Hey, can I tag along with your crew? He said, sure. But then his trip was delayed.

I had already bought my ticket, so I headed over alone. I'm not a war correspondent, and I was only in Ukraine for about a week, so I'm not telling you some super-secret anything, but it is the case that you learn very quickly what the fog of war means, because nobody really knows what's going on. Modes of communication had been cut. I don't speak Ukrainian. It was a tense time, obviously; the country's being invaded.

I wound up in Warsaw and had no idea how I was getting into Ukraine. You can't take a bus, you can't take a plane, you can't drive over. But I got a DM from a woman on Twitter; I'll call her T. She was from the area around Lviv, Ukraine. She lived in Portland, Oregon now and had been following my reporting from that city in 2020 and 2021. She contacted me and said, Listen, I have a friend in Lviv. If you can get there, I'm sure you can hook up with her. I'm like, that sounds great.

I bought what I thought was a bus ticket to the border, to Przemyśl in Poland. It turned out to be a train ticket. On the train, I met a Ukrainian who was coming from Holland. Vitaly had been working there and was going back to Odessa. He had to. All Ukrainian men between certain ages were being called back to fight, and those in-country were not allowed to leave. The elderly and some women and children were allowed to get out. Anyway, Vitaly was also going back because he had family in Odessa. They'd been staying in his house; his sister and nieces and nephews. He's got to go back, first of all to fight, and also to see how they were doing. So we met, he spoke pretty good English, and we get to Przemyśl and it’s a madhouse.

We're not very far from the border, probably about 10 miles, but it's pretty much the middle of the night, and while there are some cabs, it’s a bit sketchy and what are they going to do? Take you to the border and drop you off in the woods? This doesn't sound so smart. Anyway we get off the train and walk past all this stuff that's already been donated. There are baby carriages, there's food, there's clothing, just piles of it. We walk past it all and to an area where there are a lot of people waiting, mostly men, mostly Ukrainian, coming from different parts of Europe. They've been working in Spain and other countries. There are a few Americans, these guys with an attitude like, We're going to go over and we're going to help the Ukrainians. I don't think things worked out well for a lot of them. My friend Antonio Hitchens wrote a really good piece about them for the New York Review of Books, you can read that here.

Anyway, I don't know what's going on, nor does Vitaly, and we are just waiting in this line of a couple hundred people. It's getting really cold, too. I went to Ukraine with just a child-sized knapsack, it had my computer a warm jacket that folded to about the size of a deck of cards and a tiny bit of clothing; I didn't pack much because I didn’t know how I was going to get around, if I were going to be on the back of a motorcycle or something. Anyway, I'm freezing; we're all pretty much freezing as we watch hundreds of people come out of this doorway, women, the elderly, children, carrying no more than a shopping bag and sometimes not even that. We don't know where they’ve come and we don’t get a chance to speak with any of them, but we figure, correctly, they are refugees coming from the eastern parts of Ukraine and into Poland. [For more on this journey see, “Dispatch from Ukraine: The Road to Lviv.”]

After about an hour and a half, two hours, the refugees peter out and we are allowed to walk in. Nobody knows where the train is going. It could be going to Odessa. It could or could not be stopping first in Lviv, but Vitaly feels pretty certain it will. Meanwhile, I’ve been trading messages with T in Portland, she’s saying, When and if you get to Lviv, my friend Oksana’s husband, he's going to be waiting for you at the train station. I'm like, okay; if we get there.

We board this train. It’s very rudimentary, no bathrooms, hardwood seats. We get on, it's about midnight now, and we're just sort of hurtling through the night. We can see nothing really out the windows and no way of knowing where we are going. A few young men walk through with rifles; a few young women ask to see some ID, which we show them. We have no tickets and no one asks for them. Meanwhile there are a couple of gals sitting next to us. They're probably in their thirties. They have gone over the border and dropped off their children. Think about this. It's the first week of the war. You want to keep your children safe so you cross the border and drop them off, hopefully with family, and then you go back because you want to go back. You want to help protect your country. This is the message I will get later on, over and over. In any case, they gals are very sweet with me. I hadn't eaten anything and they're forcing a sandwich on me. I'm like, I'm going to take their sandwiches, after what they are going through? No, no. But they’re like, You have to eat, eat please. I did.

Anyway, Vitali is just heroic and wonderful, and after about an hour and a half, the train stops. Are we in Lviv? Not sure. We all get off and walk for a bit through a dark empty area. Vitaly is going to try to catch a train for Odessa, he doesn't know if there will be one, we are all hoping the connections we need are going to happen. We walk through the darkness and then we make a turn, and in the distance, maybe a quarter of a mile, there are thousands of people, we walk toward and then through and among them, people trying to get out of Ukraine, people moving further in-country, aid organizations like World Central Kitchen there feeding and clothing people, and while it could have devolved into mayhem, it does not at all, there is no shouting or pushing, it’s like a very efficient ant colony working under bright lights in the middle of the night.

The train station is massive, with big wide gigantic steps leading in. T texts again -Oksana’s husband is there, he will meet me on the train steps, he's wearing a blue jacket. There are literally hundreds of people moving on the train steps, and I don't want to hold up Vitaly any longer; he’s been so wonderful and so protective, and he's got to catch a train to his family. I'm like, Go, go. I'm going to be fine. And he's says, No, we are going to find your friend’s husband. And he turns around and says, Maybe that is him. He is looking at a man looking at us, a man who holds up his phone, and on the phone is a picture of me. [He recognized me, he will later say, from my pink hair.] He and Vitaly grasp hands and say something I took to mean, I got her this far; you will take her now? Yes, I will take her.

I'm getting overcome remembering this, that people who don't know you at all will come in the middle of the night to pick you up, during the second week of a war. This is what he did. And he didn't speak any English. And I spoke no Ukrainian. I tried to be composed as we drove in his nice very warm car to his home, where his wonderful wife Oksana opened the door to me at 3:30 in the morning and we sat in her kitchen and we talked. Her English was very good. She worked as a travel agent. They had two daughters, at the time ages 8 and 14, the 14-year-old was staying with the grandparents nearby and in whose bedroom I slept for five nights and reported, including on Oksana and her family.

Oksana and I went and did a lot of different reporting, and I was unbelievably fortunate to have had this happen. And then you also wonder if it’s the case if you get yourself there, things are going to work out. I was never in any danger. I was not running into any kind of war zone. But there was bombing there soon after I left, which brings me a little bit up to today.

Oksana and I have stayed in touch. She and her two daughters came to New York in September 2022 and stayed with me for five days. They were in the States for a couple of months traveling around. Her husband had really wanted her to get out because do you want your wife and kids around during the war? She had definitely not wanted to leave when I was there. She said essentially, I'm going to stay here, I'll pick up a gun if I need to. And that was very much the sense I had when I reported from Ukraine, how devoted people were to keeping themselves safe and protecting their countrymen and protecting their country.

More than two and a half years later, the war is still going on. We have obviously been preoccupied with another war, in Israel. There are so many stories of carnage that I think Ukraine sometimes sort of fades, but of course there are still bombings and there's still information we're trying to parse, what's happening and what's true from propaganda and wishful thinking. I have stayed in touch with Oksana, who last week sent me information about a family who had perished, all except for the father. More of their story is here and it’s brutal and horrible and includes the line, “The world hardly notices anymore…”

I asked Oksana if she would record with me, and perhaps with her brother Roman, a software developer, to let people know what is going on in their country from people living it day by day. Without further ado, here is Oksana and Roman Hutnyk.

Related reading:

“Dispatch From Ukraine: 'Let's Go. Let's Not Go,’” by Nancy Rommelmann (Reason)

“Dispatch From Ukraine: The Hutnyks of Lviv,” by Nancy Rommelmann (Reason)

“Dispatch From Ukraine: Living as a Russian in Ukraine,” by Nancy Rommelmann (Reason)

If you appreciate this Substack, consider a paid subscription. Your support lets us keep bringing you the stories

Sarah and Nancy discuss the new documentary, Jussie Smollett: Anatomy of a Hoax, about the fake hate crime of the Empire star who once dubbed himself “the gay Tupac.” The real stars are the Osundairos, two Nigerian brothers and aspiring actors hired for the bizarre stunt. Why did they do it? What was up with that bottle of hot sauce? And is celebrity culture a bigger problem than victim culture?

Also: Stanford Law School has a DEI mess following an appearance by Fifth Circuit court judge Kyle Duncan, and once more, ambition overrides judgment (a running theme). Which moment in the 2015 HBO miniseries The Jinx turned Nancy off entirely? Who is the godfather of true crime, and why is it Skip Hollandsworth? The rise and fall of PornHub; yet another glowing recommendation for Jon Ronson’s oeuvre; a fascinating convo about journalism’s working-class roots; and the mysteries of our Google searches. But don’t forget MILF Manor, because Sarah cannot.

Nancy and Sarah read letters from listeners. Topics include moral complication, British sitcoms/podcasts, the courage of Stephen Elliott, and a counter-point on Matt Taibbi. Nancy tells us about an LA journo pal who died in 2007, and Sarah wonders whether journalism is ultimately a profession of hucksters and frauds. Along the way, they discuss 12-minute naps, the celebrity they’d most like to, uhh, kiss, how big pigeons can get, who they’d call from jail, where they’d go if they had to disappear (and why Sarah won’t be informed of Nancy’s location, booo). Plus: Martha Mitchell, The Jinx, Sarah’s fake British accent sounds like Monty Python, and Nancy proclaims she’s part of Gen Z — until she learns what Gen Z actually is.

The Oscars were surprisingly good this year. We discuss the most moving moments, including the teary comeback of Brendan Fraser, the resilience of Ke Huy Kwan, the art-school weirdos who became the big winners, The Daniels, and why Lady Gaga is the Real Deal. Also discussed: The Carpenters (pro or con?), the tricky business of the American Dream, the argument for cultural appropriation, should Sarah do Ozempic, and how tall is Salma Hayek? Hint: Sarah-size.

In the bonus episode: Mysterious allegations against Michael Irvin prompt Sarah to talk about that time he stabbed his Dallas Cowboys’ teammate in the neck, why it’s hard to write about the dark side of sports, plus the notorious Jerry Jones and the NFL force field. Matt Taibbi testifies before Congress, enrages some journalists, becomes a hero to others. MILF Manor has a quality twist coming our way.

Welcome to our longest episode yet! The Oscars were surprisingly good this year. We discuss the most moving moments, including the teary comeback of Brendan Fraser, the resilience of Ke Huy Kwan, the art-school weirdos who became the big winners, The Daniels, and why Lady Gaga is the Real Deal. Also discussed: The Carpenters (pro or con?), the tricky business of the American Dream, the argument for cultural appropriation, should Sarah do Ozempic, and how tall is Salma Hayek? Hint: Sarah-size.

In the bonus episode: Mysterious allegations against Michael Irvin prompt Sarah to talk about that time he stabbed his Dallas Cowboys’ teammate in the neck, why it’s hard to write about the dark side of sports, plus the notorious Jerry Jones and the NFL force field. Matt Taibbi testifies before Congress, enrages some journalists, becomes a hero to others. MILF Manor has a quality twist coming our way.

Also: Send us your letters! smokeempodcast@gmail.com. We’ll read the best listener letters and answer salient questions in an upcoming episode.

Everything everywhere all at once (possible oversell) when you become a paid subscriber.

After sustaining “the atom bomb I needed to follow my passion” (her imminent layoff, her husband having an affair), Lisa Schroeder went to cooking school and, in 2000, opened Mother’s Bistro in Portland, Oregon. From day one the place was packed, everyone wanting what Schroder calls “Mother Food” – meatloaf and gravy, chicken & dumplings, and a brunch t…

Good morning from Chinatown NYC, where there are no avocados in my 42-square foot (including counters and all appliances, listen, it’s like walking a gang plank) kitchen, just a COVID test in-progress and some excellent coffee from Panther Coffee, based out of Miami. The owners, Joel and Leticia Pollock, are friends from the iteration of my life after Los Angeles, we met them in Portland, from whence they decamped for Miami, to open a coffee roasting business.

“Nency, Nency, can you write something for us?” This is Leticia - and here I am badly botching her Brazilian accent - asking back in 2009 that I write to the local licensing bureau explaining what coffee roasting was, the idea being totally foreign and apparently causing officials to think someone was trying to burn down the city. I did; Panther opened in 2010 and now has something like four million locations in Miami (okay, six). You should go.

We are going back further today! To 1990, when my daughter was less than a year old and I saw two young women my age pushing baby strollers past my house on the street that led up to the Hollywood Reservoir. Stay to the end for a sweet addendum.

Two corrections: Charlie’s first band was the Plugz. (The Cruzados were second.) And toward the end I accidentally say “mash the garlic” when of course I mean, mash the avocado. Also: COVID, negative.

Episode notes:

Charlie Quintana, whose first and only job besides as a drummer was delivering flowers for one day in his native El Paso. He was sixteen when the band he formed and The Plugz (video) became successful. Charlie went on to become part of the Cruzados, The Havalinas and other bands, and toured and/or recorded with Bon Dylan, Social Distortion, John Doe, Cracker, Joan Osborne and, if I am not mistaken, the Gin Blossoms. I remember (though I am finding no confirmation of) this because sometimes when Charlie played in Los Angeles he would nab me some tickets, and when the Wallflowers played at the Greek Theater, lead singer Jakob Dylan announced (I am not kidding here), “This goes out to Nancy,” before launching into, “One Headlight.” (I had told Charlie I loved the song.) Maybe I’m wrong! But that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

Well lookie here, I found some audio of “Meet the Neighbors.” (Or you can read it.)

“Charlie Quintana, drummer for the Plugz and Social Distortion, dies at 56,” by Randy Lewis (Los Angeles Times)

“Taking My Ex Back In (for His Own Good),” by Nancy Rommelmann (New York Times Modern Love)

Guacamole, adapted from Charlie Quintana

* 5 ripe avocados

* Salt

* One-half yellow onion, chopped small

* 2 - 3 jalapenos, chopped small, leave some seeds

* Handful of cilantro, chopped

* Juice of 2 - 3 limes

Mash the avocado and salt. Add onion, jalapeno, cilantro and stir. Squeeze on lime juice. Adjust to taste.

Charlie playing with Bob Dylan on David Letterman 1984

The journalistas discuss whether “women writer” is a valuable identity and then welcome guest Stephen Elliott (who is many things but not a woman). Once a celebrated author and the founder of The Rumpus, Elliott is better known these days as the man who sued “Shitty Media Men” creator Moira Donegan, a lawsuit he recently settled. Elliott was raised in group homes, and he says his legal action came from a moral obligation to fight a list he characterized as a “false accusation machine.” Donegan pledged never to apologize, a promise she kept, but the eventual settlement ran into the six figures. Elliott opens up about the danger of anonymous accusations, the pain of losing deep friendships, why nobody remembers joining a mob, and the strange freedom that comes with literary exile. As he says, “You can’t be canceled twice.”

In the bonus: Nancy’s AI reads her ChatGPT. The Toronto Raptors basketball team celebrate Women’s History Month — and promise to do better. Chris Rock splits Twitter, lights up Netflix, and what does “misogynoir” mean? Sarah thinks Nancy just started a beef with Chris Rock; Nancy claims they’re all good (weigh in, commenters!). Hot boxes include a documentary on the Sarah Lawrence con man, Matt Welch’s questionable advice for dealing with a bear, and a message for the ladies on this international day in our honor.

By Nancy Rommelmann

I put most of my Portland coverage on my Substack, Make More Pie, where I almost never post audio. Since you all are audiophiles, and on the chance the story is of interest, I am cross-posting the episode here - NR

The streets of Portland may be calmer than during the 108 straight nights of violence in 2020, but are things better? Or are they just as bad but in different ways?

Photographers Chelly (@hunnybadgermom on Twitter) and Michelle (@cocainemichelle) cover the city, including the current rise in homelessness and drug addiction, the uptick in crime, and the exponential shredding of the social fabric. They chronicle the deterioration of downtown, where the vacancy rate is set to hit 40%, and speak with those filling the void. Lifelong Oregonians, they see citizens variously unwilling to see these issues as problems, and fleeing the City of Roses because of them.

How did Portland get to where it is? Have decisions based on presumed compassion - to not prosecute property and some violent crimes; to provide support if not treatment to drug users — led to bad outcomes? And are better days two years away, or two decades?

Episode notes:

Video I took while driving Thomas Chatterton-Williams, February 2022

One Michelle took, January 2023

Rebranded Foster-Powell, Felony Flats was a great neighborhood name

From Measure 110, which decriminalized personal-use amounts of drugs:

“On November 3, 2020, Oregon voters passed Measure 110, approving two shifts in how the state deals with the use of illegal drugs. First, the measure reduces penalties for drug possession, making Oregon the first state to decriminalize the personal possession of illegal drugs. Secondly, the anticipated savings achieved from the current cost of enforcing criminal drug possession penalties will be combined with marijuana sales revenue to fund a new drug addiction treatment and recovery grant program.”

Emphasis mine. Oregon ranks second-highest in rate of substance abuse and 50th in access to treatment. Since the passage of 110, “funding has been slow getting out of the gate and instances of drug abuse and overdose deaths have increased,” and agencies are currently fighting over who gets to siphon off funds earmarked for drug treatment.

“A Murder in Portland,” by Nancy Rommelmann (Washington Examiner Magazine)

“Destruction and Hope in Portland,” which I wrote for Persuasion, featured North Portland resident Kurt Martig who, like Michelle, was shocked at how many people on NextDoor are willing to reimagine the destruction of other people’s property as no big deal. (NB: Martig and his family moved out of Portland last year.)

“I go on Nextdoor.com and I’m seeing things like, ‘People have insurance, things are less important than lives,’” Martig said. “I’m like, guys, you’re hurting innocent bystanders, the business owners are getting hurt, the employees are going to get hurt, the customers, it’s all the way down.”

Others disagreed. Someone at the dog park told Martig he should factor in “the decades and centuries of oppression and understand why people are doing what they’re doing.” A friend told him that the cops were always worse.

“It kind of breaks down to, you can either be one way or the other,” Martig said. “Which is a false choice.”

“Nike Offers to Pay Police to Guard Portland Store From Shoplifters,” by Mike Impelli (Newsweek)

“Portland, Ore., Once Among Safest U.S. Cities, Struggles to Cut Homicide Rate,” by Zusha Elinson (Wall Street Journal)

“We looked at Portland's crime rates. Comparatively, they're not so bad,” by Andy Giegerich (Portland Business Journal)

About that bucket of diarrhea sloshed into a police station…

Welcome new subscribers to Smoke ‘Em If You Got ‘Em! We are super-stoked that Substack included our little pod as a Featured Publication. Quick lay of the land: Free subscribers get notified whenever we post an episode, and can enjoy 45-60 minutes of a free preview. Paid subscribers get our undying love and the full fig — including pop-culture recommendations and the juiciest bits of the conversation — along with the ability to comment in our active and (may we say) impressive Smoke ‘Em community, plus exclusive access to bonus episodes and solo ventures, like Sarah’s Friday-night “Smoking Diaries” and Nancy’s Sunday morning “Pie Talk.” We have Zoom hangs every first Sunday of the month for paid subscribers, where we enjoy laughter, civic debate, and (occasionally) wigs. Now, as they say, on with the show …

We start with the sad tale of Alec Baldwin and the Rust gun tragedy, then discuss a blockbuster New York Times magazine story on the inner lives and private turmoil of police in Louisville, where Breonna Taylor was killed. It’s a rich, empathic portrait that likely wouldn’t have appeared last year, just like recent stories on the probability of a lab leak in China and the futility of masking. Is culture taking a turn? Chicago mayor Lori Lightfoot was ousted the evening after we recorded this episode; it could be a referendum on violent crime.

Here at Smoke ‘Em, we aim to humanize stories that get ripped of context and nuance by an ever-churning media machine and its social-network accomplice. The NYT story — which is, full disclosure, written by one of Sarah’s closest friends, journalist Jamie Thompson — gives us an opportunity to sympathize with another side, and prompts stories about lost love (for Sarah) and Portland chaos (for Nancy).

Plus: Sarah squicks out “moderate MILF” Nancy by telling her about a massage challenge on the latest episode of MILF Manor; the etymology of “cuffing season”; the secret allure of Alabama; blue eye shadow, Y/N? And much more!

Reminder: Zoom hang this Sunday, 3/5, 8pm ET/5pm PT, for paid subscribers. Link will be emailed on the day-of!

We are talking feeding people this week, and Portland, and who counts as family. Yes that’s the little one in the pic, and me in the ‘stache. What a weird party that was! We wound up in a long conversation with an editor from another city, a visitor who tried to laser-beam you with his charm. “Don’t you know the effect you have on men?” he later said, to one of us, a line I found kind of hilarious, like something from a book called, “Ninety Things To Say To A Woman That Might Get You in Her Pants.” The guy’s life later went up in flames, and pretty publicly. I’m not throwing a log on that fire but will say, I was less than surprised.

We are also talking this week’s literati flare-ups (the stealth editing of Roald Dahl, the never-ending crusade against of J.K. Rowling, dust-up #609 at the Times) and their opposite, the people who come to your aid. Why not also feed them some chicken?

Episode notes:

“Taking My Ex Back In (for His Own Good),” by Nancy Rommelmann (NYT Modern Love)

I misspoke when I said You Must Remember This is Kat Rosenfield’s second book. It’s her fifth! But the second I’ve read, and which I love love love love love.

Paloma-cam during Kat Rosenfield’s party for No One Will Miss Her

My Smoke ‘Em If You Got ‘Em partner, Sarah Hepola, went on record saying “The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling” will be the Podcast of the Year

I think we are all coming to realize that late 2020/early 2021 was a time when certain segments of the media and the public-at-large became absolutely possessed with a desire for the blood of their colleagues. I’ve written and talked about Donald G. [I accidentally said “J.”] McNeil Jr. a dozen times. He and Andy Mills, an original creator of the NYT’s “The Daily” as well as its once-crown jewel podcast “Caliphate,” were both ushered out of the Times in February 2021. McNeil now writes on Medium, and Andy is working with Bari Weiss’s The Free Press, including on “The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling.” Good work will out.

And speaking of not canceling people…

Katie Herzog and Jesse Singal update the NYT flame-wars on the most recent episode of Blocked & Reported, “Times Wars, Episode IX: The Normies Strike Back.”

Signs of the tide shifting? Penguin Random House to publish 'classic' Roald Dahl books after censorship criticism, by Theara Coleman (The Week)

“NPR to Cut 10% of Its Staff,” by Katie Roberson (NYT)

Hoisin Chicken

This recipe is very easy to double or triple. Cooking time will depend on the size of the chicken thighs and how many you have in the pan.

* 8 chicken thighs, skin on

* Salt and pepper

* 3/4 cup hoisin sauce, Lee Kum Kee brand preferred, thinned out with 3 - 4 tablespoons soy sauce

Preheat oven to 375F.

Salt and pepper the chicken thighs on both sides and place them, skin side up, on a rack inside your baking pan or sheet. The rack will prevent the thighs from sitting in the cooking juices and becoming less crisp. No problem if you don’t have a rack!

Bake until chicken skin starts to brown, about 25 minutes. Pour and brush on hoisin-soy mixture. Make about another 20 - 25 minutes, until thighs are nicely shellacked.

The drippings from the pan can be poured as-is over rice or, better, heat them in a small saucepan until somewhat reduced and yummier, about 5 minutes.

Serve chicken with sticky rice and a cucumber salad: peeled and seeded cucumbers, sliced and mixed with rice wine vinegar and a large pinch of sugar and a smaller pinch of salt. Add some chopped fresh basil, mint or cilantro if you’re feeling fancy.

Three ways to make sticky rice! (Also called glutinous rice, sushi rice, and sweet rice.) I have not had great luck making sticky rice in the rice cooker, and have never tried the microwave method. Let me know if you do!

Everything is more delicious when you become a paid or free subscriber

To talk or not to talk about this week’s red meat media story? Well, we’re talking. Are we surprised at the appetite that some in media take in shredding one of their own in public? Of course not; it’s the same old boring mob behavior. But what’s really behind it? Professional jealousy? The moronic idea that if you knock a person off her perch, that gets you closer to her gig? And does anyone believe, as a kajillion tweets enjoin us to believe, that women and journalism have been set back decades?

Also discussed:

* Melania Trump as new and improved political spouse

* Who among us has not posed for tasteful nudes?

* No one should doubt the pulverizing power of the Kennedy machine

* The irresponsibility of running “too good to verify” stories

* The necessary intimacy between reporter and subject. “It’s a dance of sorts.”

* Status, the new fragrance for men…

* Things worked out well for the creator of the Shitty Media Men List: yea or nay?

Also discussed: the literary imposter Laura Albert (aka, J.T. Leroy), an unrecognizable Colin Farrell, Nancy’s got a new book (if no pre-publicity nudes, dammit!) and much more!

Two recent controversies prove the power of words, and also our country’s near-hopeless division. Publishers of Roald Dahl’s children’s classics, including Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, were busted making edits that removed “offensive” passages for modern audiences, an effort spearheaded by a group called Inclusive Minds (“consultants and campaigners,” according to their website). Nancy and Sarah sift through the reactions and dangerous implications, and wonder: What are we asking — or rather, enforcing — that our children give up? Could it be delight?

Meanwhile, Nancy and Sarah are loving a new podcast from The Free Press, “The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling.” Hosted by Westboro Baptist Church apostate Megan Phelps-Roper, and masterminded by exiled The Daily producer Andy Mills, the show interviews the author born as Joanne Rowling and reveals her to be sympathetic, deep-thinking, and (of course) complicated. The show has only dropped two episodes, but it’s Sarah’s current vote for Podcast of the Year. Whatever you think of Rowling (and can anyone tell us how to pronounce her last name?), this podcast is an extraordinary peek into a pressing controversy — not that such value would ever stop the haters.

Also: Sarah sings the Oscar Meyer jingle. MILF Manor gets a new MILF. Who is Nancy’s vote for the most popular humorist of the past 50 years? (Hint from Sarah: It’s not the most popular humorist.) And: Is Dave Barry funny? A debate.

Earlier this week, nearly 200 New York Times contributors sent an open letter to the “paper of record,” excoriating its coverage on trans issues. GLAAD followed suit, with a letter that also made clear demands. The Times responded with a cool head. The end, right?

Nope. The ensuing drama consumed journo Twitter, and by Friday, more than a 1,000 contributors signed the open letter. What’s at stake is not merely the paper’s coverage of trans issues (which is far deeper and more rigorous than the open letter suggests), but the nature of journalism itself: Should it describe the world as it is, or as it should be? What role should activism play in today’s newsroom? Are the people who signed the letter on the right side of history, or the wrong side of history? And what if history actually has no sides?

This week we devote the entire episode to this impassioned, twisty, and personally high-stakes conversation for us as journalists. We talk about fear, careerism, peer pressure, along with friends who signed the list and those who conspicuously did not. Cameo appearances by: Emily Bazelon, Judd Apatow, Michael Powell, Matt Welch (duh), Bari Weiss, Alex Pareene, Taylor Sheridan, and someone named Peppermint.

Also: Will Nancy pen the Moderate MILF manifesto? Why is Sarah on the bacon Wikipedia page? Plus, love and romance in our hot boxes.

The Internet knows him as “Chartthrob” and “Map Daddy,” but once upon a time, Sarah knew him as “Snackwells,” the boy-genius politics editor at Salon and sweetheart of a co-worker who bought her a daily Diet Dr Pepper and picked stray vegetables out of everything he ate. The one and only Steve Kornacki joins the pod to talk about his stratospheric popularity as elections analyst on MSNBC (“I don’t fully understand what happened”), the Super Bowl and sports betting, his #1 Spotify listen of 2022 (Bobby Vee, anyone?), his famous Gap khakis, and his fantastic new podcast, “The Revolution,” tracking the rise and fall of Newt Gingrich, whose Nineties’ tenure as Speaker of the House had an outsized influence on American politics.

In the bonus: Sarah and Nancy discuss Rihanna’s fumble of a halftime performance: the pregnancy reveal, the amazing dancers who (unintentionally?) looked like sperm, and the bizarre moment when Rihanna sniffed her own crotch. (Sarah has some hot sports opinions about that one.) But there was one performer going for broke during that show, and we adore her. Also: The Waco siege, 30 years later, and will a Netflix show make Nancy change her mind about Glass Onion?

In 2021, actor Armie Hammer’s career crashed into the side of a mountain. The recently separated star had lined up a series of high-profile projects when an anonymous Instagram account called the House of Effie began posting eye-popping messages of violent sexual fantasy that purported to be from Hammer. “I am 100% cannibal,” read one. More women joined the fray, bringing accusations of coercion, power abuse, and eventually rape. The Internet, no surprise here, was riveted. Cue a cascade of clickbait articles and a high-profile documentary, but along the way, there was one side of the story curiously missing: Armie Hammer’s.

Journalist Jamie Kirchick changed that with his barnburner new profile, “Armie Hammer Breaks His Silence,” recently published in Graydon Carter’s magazine, Air Mail. Kirchick comes on the podcast to talk about a scandal gone wild, a media in absentia, kink shaming, the parts of those salacious messages we never got to see, the problem with the court of public opinion, and whether consent can ever be taken back. It’s a hell of a story.

In the bonus: gamifying your healthcare, Nancy reveals her big TV commercial break, how to eat a cupcake, MILF Manor gets real (silly), the brilliant and controversial third episode of HBO’s The Last of Us, and a whole bunch of hotness in our hot boxes.

What up with the language police? Nancy and Sarah take on the one-percent who insist on scrubbing the mundane (“he,” “she,” “the”) and the arcane (“graybeard”?) from our mouths on the off-chance the words cause harm or feelings of exclusion. Language is shape-shifting, and good communication aims toward inclusion, but who does it help when we replace basic words with the un-fun, the opaque, and the workshopped? Sarah and Nancy may disagree on how to pronounce Latinx (“Lah-TEENix”? “LaTINKS”?) but agree with Substacker Rob Henderson when he writes that “only the affluent can afford to learn strange vocabulary, because ordinary people have real problems to worry about.”

Speaking of language, New York Times Opinion writer and former head of the Times Book Review Pamela Paul revisits the novel American Dirt and its author Jeanine Cummins, both fed to the cultural appropriation fires of 2020. More than a hundred writers wrote an open letter denouncing Cummins to Oprah Winfrey (who’d made American Dirt an Oprah pick), and such campaigns have left publishers running in fear, but the public? They made the book a bestseller.

Plus: Nancy and Sarah on deep-fried anything, the legacy of Tom Wolfe (the best American novelist on the subject of “status”) and some cracking 20th-C essays about the sexual revolution, a time when “finding yourself” left many people lost.

In the bonus: Sarah takes us to MILF Manor, while Nancy talks about her mom and memory loss, wishing a pox on those who prey on the elderly. An update on journalist Felicia Sonmez, star of the 2022 melodrama, “As the Washington Post Turns.” Then it’s into the hot boxes, of which Sarah’s appears to be gushing lava, lots and lots of lava … And we tease our next guest. You may call him “Map Daddy”; we call him friend.

Please note! Zoom hangs for paid subscribers will be the first Sunday of each month. We gather THIS SUNDAY, Feb 5, at 8pm ET/5pm PT. We’ll send a Zoom link the day-of. Will Sarah wear a wig? Will Nancy wear a halter? Find out.

Come for the deep-fried Oreos, stay for the MILF Manor recap and straight talk. Isn’t it time to become a paid or free subscriber?

We discuss a viral advice column titled “You Fat-Shamed Your Beautiful Girlfriend.” It begins with a letter from someone wrestling over how to handle a partner’s weight gain. The advice giver’s clap-back (“If your girlfriend wrote into this column with this story, I would tell her she should break up with you”) prompts an antic conversation about fat, shame, sexual desire, pharmaceutical interventions like Ozempic, integrity, and the long relationship we have with our own bodies.

Also: Update on a Twitter spat, more philosophical musings on sex with a dead chicken (of course), and we share a dissenting opinion from a listener (and mother) on last week’s episode about “All Gas No Brakes” host Andrew Callaghan, accused of being a “sexual pest.” Sarah points out she’s not here to talk about how things should be, but how they are. Nancy knows you can never protect your kids enough, from the tiniest mean glance to a plane crash. What you can do, she argues, is to teach them good survival skills and tell them it’s absolutely fine to say no.

In the bonus episode: MILF Manor may be a sign of cultural collapse, but the second episode sure was fascinating! We revisit a 1980 Stockard Channing movie about an “ugly ducking” who transforms into a hottie with a mind for revenge. Nancy gets hooked on an Israeli television show, and Sarah rediscovers the brilliance of a 1994 movie along with the hotness of Ralph Fiennes.

Nancy and Sarah dive back into the faked death of romance novelist Susan Meachan, thanks to journalist Ellen Barry, who did a deep dive in the NYT. After learning details of her (actual) life, do we have any more empathy for Meachan and her seduction by and escape into Romancelandia?

Next we look at the scandal around Andrew Callaghan, YouTube star of All Gas No Brakes who was hit with allegations of sexual coercion on the eve of his HBO debut. Nancy is suspicious of the timing, as well as the request for money from one of his accusers. Sarah thinks this kerfuffle raises good questions about coercion, alcohol, and sex. They both found Callaghan’s four-minute apology video like a bingo card of social-justice catch phrases.

Also: Why can’t we stop talking about sex with dead chickens? And Sarah gets dinged on Twitter by someone accusing her of “agreeing with the boss’ wife about Justice Kavanaugh.” Nancy is confused. Isn’t she Sarah’s boss?

In the bonus, it’s onto (into?) the new reality series MILF Manor, which Sarah is mainlining and whose title Nancy can barely bring herself to say. The journalistas took the “Are You a MILF?” quiz. We reveal who scored higher, what’s in our hotboxes, and news about upcoming live events.

And speaking of events! Nancy and Sarah will be appearing onstage with Meghan Daum and Sarah Haider (of A Special Place in Hell) on Thursday June 22, as part of the University of Austin’s 2023 Forbidden Courses event. Despite the name of the university, the event is actually being held in Dallas, 7:30-9pm central, at the Old Parkland.

For full episodes, go to our Substack page: https://smokeempodcast.substack.com/podcast

Nancy has been enjoying the audiobook of Harry Windsor’s blockbuster memoir, “Spare,” but Sarah thinks a more fitting title might be “Spare Me.” They debate the controversial figure of Prince Harry, grieving son in a golden cage but also emblem of millennial entitlement and empty social-justice activism. Sarah has a problem with the ghostwriter’s heavy hand, while Nancy has a problem with cruise ships, which becomes relevant when the terrific film “Triangle of Sadness” (which takes place on a boat) prompts a debate on 21st-century American masculinity. Do men still know how to build a fire? What about fixing an engine? And just how manly is it to get frostbite on your penis — and is that even possible?

In the bonus: We discuss the life of the late Lisa Marie Presley, who grew up as American royalty, and how far (if at all) she was allowed to fly from the golden cage. Were her marriages to troubled men an attempt to help the troubled father who died when she was nine? Plus, we revisit lustrous moments from the Golden Globes and — again! — Sarah and Nancy disagree about an award-winning film.

Have you ever known someone who came back from the dead? (Aside from JC and Manti Te'o's girlfriend.) Well, you do now: Susan Meachan was a prolific writer of self-published romance novels when, following reports of online bullying, her suicide was reported in 2020. Alas, Meachen apparently found being dead a bit boring, and announced her resurrection this month. We dig into this story, leading to a discussion about the scorned but popular genre of romance, the endurance of boy bands, endless social media frauds, and how far people will go for love and attention. Susan, if you’re reading this: Sarah has questions.

We then look at the latest university scandal, which PEN America calls “one of the most egregious violations of academic freedom in recent memory”: An adjunct art history professor at Hamline University in St. Paul, MN, showed the class a painting of the Prophet Mohammed. While she’d alerted the class in a syllabus as well as prior to the discussion, a Sudanese student nevertheless described herself as “blindsided”; a forum was held, accusations of Islamophobia and misconduct flew, and the whole thing wound up in the New York Times.

Also discussed: What is nonbinary workwear? Is Sarah a nicer person than Nancy? Is it morally acceptable to have sex with a chicken if said chicken is dead? And what is a robot kitten (or as Nancy puts it, “kit-ten”)?

Bonus content: The Menu is the dark foodie satire we need. We rediscover our love for Ralph Fiennes and praise Anya Taylor-Joy (recently of The Queen’s Gambit) and disagree on whether foodie culture has gone too far. Also: How much did Nancy pay to eat at the fabled Chicago restaurant Alinea, and who doesn’t have a crush on Harry Styles?

2023 is off to a roaring start, as the Twitter vultures rip apart the carcass of podcaster Lex Fridman’s reading list of the classics. (On the Road? Biiig mistake.) We discuss the passing of TV pioneer Barbara Walters, whose gently probing style allowed her to act as a kind of collective consciousness. She merged soft celebrity and hard-hitting politics to become a fixture in the American home. (And we didn’t even mention “The View”!) Did you know Walters filmed a TV segment dressed as a Playboy bunny a year before Gloria Steinem’s famous expose? The woman had one hell of a career.

Vice assembled a genuinely diverse panel of nine women to discuss feminism, and oooh boy, it was fascinating. Arguments over abortion, trans women in sports, beauty privilege, #MeToo, the hour-long conversation was a real intersectional shit show. Is feminism dead? Maybe. Definitely. Certainly not. As Sarah says, “Feminism is an ongoing project that shape-shifts over time.” What’s cool about the panel is also what made it so contentious. These conversations are fraught, and no one agrees.

In the bonus: New Year’s resolution talk about food and writing, let’s not bring Darren to the party, possible book club reading list, and Sarah makes a weird but touching offer to Nancy should they ever get stranded in the Sierra Mountains.

Episode Notes:

“A Murder in Portland,” by Nancy Rommelmann (Washington Examiner Magazine)

“The Reality Portland Does Not Want to See: Everything modern Portland did led up to the horrific, predictable murder of Rachael Abraham,” by Nancy Rommelmann (Nancy’s Substack — go ahead and subscribe!)

I mean, the guy was just asking to be cancelled …

It’s all good!

“Barbara Walters, a First Among TV Newswomen, Is Dead at 93,” by Alessandra Stanley (New York Times)

“Cindy Adams remembers her friend Barbara Walters,” by Cindy Adams (NY Post)

“Monica, you have been described as a bimbo, a stalker, a seductress. Describe yourself.” Barbara Walters interviews Monica Lewinsky on 20/20:

Barbara Walters learns “the Bunny Dip”:

“Slow Burn podcast: The Clinton Impeachment”

“Why I Hope top Die at 75,” by Ezekiel J. Emanuel (Atlantic)

“Headlong: Missing Richard Simmons” podcast by Dan Taberski

“A Psychologist Explains Why Life is Easier For Attractive People,” by Romano Santos (Vice)

“'Ugly Ducklings' On How People Treated Them When They Got Hot,” by Amelia Tait (Vice)

“Anti & Pro Feminists Debate Abortion, Trans Rights, and #Metoo” | VICE Debates:

“I did want to acknowledge the violence brought to my trans and non white counterparts during this whole thing,” Mindie Lind’s Instagram

“The Problem With Intersectional Feminism,” by Helen Pluckrose (Areo)

You’ve been called a bimbo, a stalker, a seductress, but with one simple text field, you could become a paid subscriber.

Nancy here. One of the super-cool things about being a journalist is that you can contact people whose work amazes you and say, “Come on my podcast!” and they almost always say, “Sure!”

As did Michael Powell, one of my favorite journalists working today, currently at The Atlantic and previously at The New York Times, where, during the height of our national meltdown (aka 2020 to 2022), Michael took on subjects many of his colleagues and others in media would not touch: DEI, Title IX, and using identity as a scythe to cut down those deemed not the right color or gender or whose whose views were opportunistically seen as problematic. “We lost our bearings,” says Michael, who kept true to course, and to say his clear-eyed work made me feel less crazy is an understatement.

Of deep value and delight is also his 2019 book, Canyon Dreams: A Basketball Season on the Navajo Nation. I felt as though I were living inside the work as I read, and I cannot wait to see Rez Ball, the movie it inspired and which opens September 27.

Also discussed:

* The explosive DNC protests that weren’t

* COVID would cool down the culture wars, right? [Insert laugh track here]

* The “scurrilous piece of journalism” in the Daily Beast by a writer Nancy now admires*

* The firing of veteran New York Times science reporter Donald McNeil Jr.? “Not the best moment of the New York Times, at all.”

* The tenderness and importance of Jihad Rehab (now retitled The UnRedacted) and the shame of Abigail Disney

* “Hey Michael, you’re white…”

Plus, the permeability between worlds that you start to see when hanging in the Native world, the politician Michael always thought of as “a clown,” some high-tone hot boxes, and much more!

Want to become a paid subscriber? Skoden!

*Max Tani, now at Semafor

Cross-posted at Make More Pie

Canyon Dreams: A Basketball Season on the Navajo Nation, by Michael Powell

“Star New York Times Reporter Donald McNeil Accused of Using “N-Word, Making Other Racist Comments,” the Daily Beast piece that Michael calls “scurrilous” and which drove Nancy up a tree…

Michael tweeted repeatedly in support of McNeil…

“The New York Times Succumbed to Another Mob. Journalism is Unrecognizable,” by Nancy Rommelmann (Newsweek)

“Kids and Cowards: What Really Happened to Donald McNeil at the New York Times,” by Nancy Rommelmann (Newsweek)

McNeil writes his own story on Medium, starting with, “NYTimes Peru N-Word, Part One: Introduction” (Medium)

“Sundance Liked Her Documentary on Terrorism, Until Muslim Critics Didn’t,” by Michael Powell (New York Times)

Michael wrote several articles about rez ball before embarking on the book, “For Navajo Team, a Season of Change and Challenge”…

… and “In Navajo Nation, a Basketball Elder Earns Respect.”

Nancy inadvertently referred to Mendoza at “Menendez.” Management regrets the error

“The membrane between life and magic is very thin there…”

What’s in your hot box?

Michael: The Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton

Nancy: Small Rain: A Novel by Garth Greenwell

Michael picks the outro

Clip Nancy filmed in final day of “Reservation Dogs” shooting, season 1…

… and on the red carpet at Emmys 2024

It’s our year-end wrap-up, and a flirtatious/contentious one! Nancy and Sarah spar over “Glass Onion,” the latest “Knives Out” mystery, before running down the most memorable moments of the past year (and 49 episodes!), from Will Smith’s slap to Teal Swan’s manipulation. We chat celebrity, cults, and spiritual voids. (Kwanzaa turns out to have a pretty bleak history, but Joyous Kwanzaa to you, anyway.) Why is Nancy so drawn to narcissistic liars? Why is Sarah so willing to defend terrible people? The tension grows thick. Will our hosts ever stop quibbling and admit they’re in love? (That’s for the paid subscribers, people.)

Bonus content: Who are our picks for person of the year? Villain of the year? We share our favorite movies, TV shows, and books, and make our bid for the most important news story of 2022. Then we confess all our secrets. Or at least, like, two.

Meghan Daum is an acclaimed essayist who hosts two podcasts, the interview show “The Unspeakable” and the current topics-based “A Special Place in Hell” with Sarah Haider. Meghan is an inspiration to many, including Sarah. While Nancy bakes pie in some upstate New York location, Sarah engages in a far-ranging solo interview with Meghan that somehow includes: Terry Gross, Michael Barbaro and his noises of affirmation, Fran Lebowitz, Meghan’s unconventional childhood of music theory and tiny adulthood, Tom Waits and Joni Mitchell, the birth of “call outs,” Roxane Gay and Bad Feminist, why heterodox writers might be the new counter-culture, the invisibility of Generation X, whether Meghan and Sarah are “conservative” despite identifying as liberals (and what “conservative” even means in an era of political realignment), why neither of us became mothers, and if there’s any truth to Candace Owens’ crack about childless women that “if you don’t use your eggs, they scramble.”

On the paid-subscriber-only episode (Ed. note: It’s really good): The perils of writing about people in your life, why Sarah dates younger men, the most controversial claim Meghan can make about herself, marriage versus singlehood, and how feminist discourse got swallowed by gender ideology.

The Los Angeles trial of Harvey Weinstein ended with jurors proclaiming the disgraced movie mogul alternately guilty, not guilty, and [shrug emoji]. Nancy and Sarah plumb deeper on the trial, centered on the allegations of four Jane Does (including one spouse of a California governor). The two-month trial gained little traction in the press, perhaps because Weinstein was convicted in the court of public opinion five years ago. People are done with him, the monster in his cage. But not Nancy and Sarah! The latter goes deep on Weinstein’s childhood, his bullying mother, the forces that shaped him. Nancy reminds us how much young women will sacrifice to step into the Hollywood magic machine.

They discuss Ken Auletta’s book Hollywood Ending: Harvey Weinstein and the Culture of Silence, and Ronan Farrow’s HBO docuseries Catch and Kill.

In the paid-subscribers-only content (sign up on Substack): Why are people talking about “nepo babies”? Also: Twitter, twittered, twittering. What we gain (and maybe lose) when we step away from social media, and why it’s always better to complicate the picture.