In this episode, Joe Moore sits down with Dr. Jason Konner, a longtime oncologist who recently left his full-time clinical role at Memorial Sloan Kettering to devote himself to the emerging intersection of cancer care and psychedelics.

Dr Konner shares how, after more than two decades treating people, he hit a wall. The accumulated grief, constant exposure to death, and intensity of oncology left him deeply burned out, though he didn't have that language for it at the time. A chance moment in a yoga class, overhearing someone say "ayahuasca retreat" just before he was scheduled for hernia surgery, became the turning point. Within a week, he was in the jungle.

That first week with ayahuasca, followed later by work with mushrooms, "absolutely transformed" his life. His fear of death lifted. The burnout he hadn't even recognized in himself was both revealed and relieved. When he returned to his practice, Konner describes feeling like he suddenly had a "superpower": he could stay present, connected, and compassionate with patients facing advanced disease without collapsing under the emotional weight.

He and Joe explore what this third path looks like: not the classic binary between either hardening and distancing as self-protection, or staying open-hearted and getting shattered. Instead, psychedelics helped him hold deep relationship with patients and families while maintaining inner stability and meaning. This opened space for authentic conversations about spirituality, fear, grief, and what it means to live with (or die from) cancer.

From there, Dr Konner zooms out to critique the broader oncology system:

• The lack of training and support for oncologists around their own emotional and existential load,
• How little space there is for relational work even though it's central to healing,
• Why many support groups and standard psychiatric approaches (like reflexively prescribing SSRIs) often miss the mark for people dealing with cancer,
• How caregivers, partners, family members, and others are deeply affected but rarely truly supported.

Joe and Jason then dig into psychedelics and oncology as a frontier: easing existential distress in patients with terminal cancer, the neglected suffering of caregivers, the potential role of psychedelics in helping people relate differently to death, and what it might mean for ICU use, aggressive end-of-life interventions, and overall healthcare costs if more people could make decisions from a place of peace rather than terror.

Dr Konner also shares a striking ovarian cancer case that hinted at powerful immune changes after shamanic work, and why he believes we need new research paradigms that can honor the integrity of retreat and ceremonial settings while still learning from them.

Finally, he talks about his early-stage project, Psychedelic Oncology, and his hope that the first wave of change starts with clinicians themselves becoming more psychedelic-literate—and, where appropriate, doing their own inner work—so better options can eventually reach the people who need them most.

Learn more - https://psychedeliconcology.com/

Clinical psychologist Dr. Genesee Herzberg joins Kyle to reflect on two decades in trauma work and 15 years inside the psychedelic ecosystem—from early MAPS conferences to running Sage Integrative Health. She traces how personal psychedelic experiences set her on a path of service, research at CIIS on MDMA-assisted therapy, and hands-on roles with MAPS: Zendo Project harm reduction, adherence rating, and ultimately serving as an MDMA therapist in clinical trials. Today she leads Sage, an integrative clinic (psychotherapy, psychiatry, bodywork, acupuncture, and functional nutrition) focused on ketamine-assisted therapy while preparing for MDMA's eventual approval. She also co-founded a sliding-scale KAP nonprofit (now Alchemy Community Therapy Center), co-edited Integral Psychedelic Therapy, and is helping to launch the International Alliance of MDMA Practitioners.

In this episode

• From counterculture to mainstream: What's been gained—and lost—as psychedelics scaled.
• Accessibility vs. corporatization: Why cutting corners (prep/integration, therapeutic time) undermines outcomes and safety.
• "Myth of the magic pill": Psychedelics can catalyze change, but healing is an ongoing process anchored by integration.
• What good care looks like: Preparation → medicine sessions → robust integration, individualized cadence, and adding bodywork and functional medicine to address gut-brain links, mineral status, sleep, and somatic tension.
• Ketamine realities: Differences between psycholytic (talk-forward) and psychedelic (eyes-closed, inner-directed) dosing; why some need multiple sessions to build relationship with the medicine; risks of mail-order models (high dosing, poor screening/support), daily prescribing, addiction potential, cystitis, and safety concerns.
• Sitting, not guiding: The therapist's task is to follow the client's process; intervene sparingly and with consent—especially in trauma work where attuned co-regulation is essential.
• Multiple access pathways: Support for regulated clinical care and community, peer, and ceremonial models—paired with education and harm reduction (Zendo's SIT peer training and new crisis-responder training).
• The MDMA pause: Initial devastation at the FDA decision gave way to seeing benefits: time to strengthen ethics, accountability, training standards, and to temper hype-driven investment.
• Pace and ethics: Lessons from burnout; moving at the speed of trust; exploring "psychedelic business models" (stakeholder focus, distributed decision-making, employee ownership, public benefit structures).

Resources & organizations mentioned

• Sage Integrative Health
• Alchemy Community Therapy Center (sliding-scale KAP)
• International Alliance of MDMA Practitioners
• Integral Psychedelic Therapy (edited by Genesee Herzberg, Jason Butler, Richard Miller)

Takeaway: Thoughtful preparation, right-sized dosing, and committed integration—held within ethical, community-minded systems—turn powerful experiences into durable change.

Joe and Kyle debrief a hometown Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork weekend in Breckenridge, then sketch the next chapter for Psychedelics Today: a community-centric model (Navigators) that bundles education, live streams, book and film clubs, and small-group access. They kick around the big "creativity + psychedelics" question, contrast subjective "I feel creative" with objective task performance, and highlight new research—from DMT's potential in stroke recovery to breathwork's measurable effects. They wrap with quick hits on MAPS leadership, state policy moves, and what's coming up at PT this fall.

Highlights & takeaways

• Breathwork > substance? A reminder that profound states are accessible without drugs; benefits of facilitating at home (rested facilitators = safer, better containers).

• What is "shamanism," really? A functional frame: non-ordinary states, interaction with the unseen, and service (healing/divination).

• Community > one-off courses: PT is shifting toward a monthly membership model to keep prices accessible, deepen relationships, and sustain more free content.

• Creativity debate: Double-blind study (DMT + harmine vs harmine vs placebo) suggests impaired convergent thinking despite increased felt creativity; how to define and measure "creativity" fairly, and other research outcomes might tell a different story.

• Whitehead & novelty: A quick tour through Alfred North Whitehead's notion of "creativity" as the principle of novelty—useful language for mapping psychedelic insight to real-world change.

• Neuro + clinical frontiers:

  • DMT for stroke (animal models): BBB stabilization and reduced neuroinflammation signal a promising adjunct to current care.

  • Cluster headaches: Emerging reports on short-acting DMT for rapidly aborting cluster cycles; more data coming soon.

  • Breathwork science: New imaging work associates music-supported hyperventilatory breathwork with blissful affect and shifts in blood flow.

News & culture mentioned

• MAPS leadership: Betty Aldworth & Ismail (Izzy) Ali named permanent Co-Executive Directors.

• Policy snapshots: Colorado Natural Medicine Board recommending ibogaine (with Nagoya-compliance requirement); Alaska signature gathering; Massachusetts activity.

• Media & scene: Hamilton's recent appearances; contamination concerns in some "psilocybin" products; "psychedelics tick far more neurons than expected" paper; mixed findings for postpartum depression.

In this episode, Chris Koddermann interviews two members of the Center for the Neuroscience of Psychedelics at Mass General Hospital: founding director, author, and co-founder of three drug development companies, Dr. Jerry Rosenbaum; and psychiatrist and associate director and director of cognitive neuroscience, Sharmin Ghaznavi, MD, Ph.D.

Rosenbaum and Ghaznavi bonded over an interest in rumination, and wondered: How could the plasticity-inducing effects of psychedelics change these negative loops people find themselves in? How important is the ability to break out of those loops – and learn new patterns – when our concept of self is so central to who we are? Ghaznavi is studying the effects of psilocybin on rumination and scanning patients at multiple times throughout the process to track data we still don't really have: how psychedelic-induced neuroplasticity changes over time, and why.

They discuss:

• How much of a role the default mode network takes in the therapeutic benefits of psychedelics: Is it overblown?
• Hyperscanning, which involves scanning two individuals at the same time, looking for potential concordance in signal and/or an increased alliance between the therapist and patient
• The Schultes Legacy Project and the work of Stephen Haggarty to explore the potential of largely unstudied psychoactive plants
• Critiques of the recent ruling on Lykos and MDMA-assisted therapy and the clash between the FDA and the advisory committee: Were they really on the same page?
• The false dichotomy of neuroscience vs. patient experience: Does the subjective experience actually increase plasticity and other measurable benefits?

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page.

In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, David interviews Tiffany Hurd: microdosing coach, speaker, business leadership advisor, and student in our current cohort of Vital.

After 15 years in the corporate healthcare industry and several years on antidepressants, she started microdosing psilocybin and saw an immediate change in her life, tapering off antidepressants within a few months. She realized that she could blend her background in business development and strategy with microdosing, helping companies (and specifically company leadership) become more vulnerable, heart-centered, and innovative. She has found that the changes in people have (not surprisingly) led to improved employee mental health, better team relationships, and more open-mindedness and authenticity, and likely, a large reason for that is not the microdosing itself, but the increased attention to preparation and integration – two huge factors often not discussed with microdosing.

She talks about:

• Why mentorship/coaching has not been seen as an integral part of a microdosing practice, and why it should be
• Her drive to normalize the use of low-dose psychedelics, especially in our Western 'go all in' culture
• The benefits of pairing microdosing with other healing modalities, and how microdosing can help you embrace more of them
• Why she signed up for vital and how she feels about the course half way through
• How she deals with the illegality of substances in the corporate world

and more!

Microdosing is one of the new specialization tracks featured in our next cohort of Vital, beginning September 16. If you want to know more, send us an email or attend one of the next Vital Q+As!

For links, head to the show notes page.

The path of the psychedelic renaissance has largely touched on the aspects of therapy, personal growth, and initiation rites, but now, the relationship between psychedelics and creativity is being studied more and more. Can psychedelics really increase intellect, novelty, and problem solving?

In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. Bruce Damer: astrobiologist with a long history of work at NASA, and now the president and co-founder of the Center for MINDS, a new nonprofit researching the best ways to improve creativity and problem solving.

He talks about how we're losing our best creative minds to hyper-specialization, and while there is lots of research pointing to psychedelics as creativity-enhancers, we need to develop frameworks and protocols to be able to measure exactly how that works, and the best ways to encourage better results. The Center for MINDS is sponsoring research while running its own three year project studying creativity in a naturalistic setting, and aims to answer: How do we unlock more genius? What's the main driver for novel thinking?

He discusses:

• His path to psychedelics, including his time with 'endo-tripping': training his mind to trip without any external substances
• The importance of adding 'set up' to set and setting, representing one's intentions and preparatory work up until that point
• The tale of his extraordinary ayahuasca experience where he journeyed together with Mama Ayahuasca all the way to the beginning of life on earth
• His theory on the real origin of life, and why the 'survival of the fittest' framework shouldn't be our North Star
• The absolute necessity of mentorship from elders

and more!

The steps the Center for MINDS will take in studying psychedelics and creativity will largely be steered by people's personal stories, so please share yours with them by filling out their survey. What has worked for you? What is your personal protocol?

For links, head to the show notes page. 

Jungian psychology takes a fascinating look at the relationship between the conscious and unconscious parts of our minds. How is this framework brought more to the forefront through psychedelics and an understanding of our many parts?

In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, Johanna interviews Jung experts and Vital instructors: Maria Papaspyrou, psychotherapist and co-founder and director of the Institute of Psychedelic Therapy (IPT); and Dr. Ido Cohen, clinical psychologist and founder of The Integration Circle.

They talk about the experiences that helped them first understand the concept of multiple different parts making up their being, and dive into what it is about psychedelics that allows us to discover and work with these different parts: how the protector parts of our psyche work overtime to keep parts away from us, and how psychedelics can dissolve them, leading to a better understanding of ourselves. How much of our persona is based on who we feel we're supposed to be? What shadow parts are stopping us from being our true selves? And what amazing parts of ourselves have yet to be discovered?

They discuss:

• The idea of self as a unified entity: Does this concept make sense anymore?
• Risks in understanding how different parts work together, from justifying behaviors to inflating defensive structures
• The need to move away from solution-based to more process-focused frameworks, and the power in treating healing and growth as an ongoing process
• The rejection of the shadow and the archetypal (and impossible) wish to extinguish all suffering
• The large discrepancy between what people think being a psychedelic facilitator is vs. the reality

and more!

If you really want to dig into Jungian ideas, Jungian psychology is one of the new specialization tracks featured in the next cohort of Vital, beginning September 16. If you want to know more, send us an email or attend one of the next Vital Q+As.

For links, head to the show notes page. 

As many mushroom enthusiasts will attest: the more you learn about the fungal kingdom, the more you see how important mushrooms are to every ecosystem they're a part of – and how life-changing a relationship with them can be.

In this episode, Joe interviews Jasper Degenaars: mycologist, educator, and the Hyphae Headmaster at Fungi Academy, offering retreats, communal living, and online courses to teach people how to grow mushrooms and form a deeper connection with them.

Degenaars tells of his path to Guatemala and the Fungi Academy, from foraging to cultivation, to the impact psychedelic experiences have had on his life. He believes that mushrooms show up where people like to live; that they are integral to ecosystems, and that they are the masters of death and life – and of ego death and rebirth. The Fungi Academy has several several in-person events for which they just opened up registration, self-paced courses you can enroll in now, and their next Sacred Mycology Summit takes place Feb. 23 – 25, 2025.

He discusses:

• The importance in studying the entire organism rather than just specific compounds
• The stoned ape theory and possible new evidence
• Why he prefers the term 'magic mushrooms' to the reductionist way of only talking about psilocybin
• The clash between clinical Western approaches and Indigenous tradition
• The Iron law of prohibition and how MDMA has gotten stronger and stronger
• His desire to move more into permaculture, including courses teaching it alongside the fundamentals of psychedelics: How can they work in tandem?

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

Psychedelics in palliative care has become an exciting new framework for people looking to ease anxiety and embrace spirituality, but the concept is not as simple as just providing a substance.

In this episode, Joe interviews Livi Joy: Director of Health and Safety, Existential Palliative Ministry Lead Facilitator, and more at Sacred Garden Community (SGC).

As she screens applicants for SGC (and Beckley Retreats), she talks a lot about the process and the safety measures that are absolutely necessary when using psychedelics in palliative care – especially under the framework of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Does the patient have at least one strong support person? Do they need to start or increase therapy? Does their home need to be rearranged due to possible fall risks? How will certain medications muffle their experience? Are they truly physically healthy enough to be able to handle a powerful journey? And also, is the sacrament always necessary?

She discusses:

• How preparation questions for a journey are often in line with preparation for death
• Why it's important to provide these experiences for people far from the dying process itself
• What Sacred Garden's core tenant of faith that everyone can have a direct experience of the divine in this lifetime means to her
• Atheism and the complications that arise when discussing spirituality and consciousness: Who's really in charge?
• How psychedelics can help with understanding and preparing for death, but our culture is too death-phobic too embrace it

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page: 

In this episode, Joe interviews Erica Rex, MA: award-winning journalist, past guest, thought leader on psychedelic medicine, and participant in one of the first clinical trials using psilocybin to treat cancer-related depression.

She tells the story of her recent harrowing experience, brought on by 6 times the amount of Syrian rue that was recommended: from entities threatening her, to a sense of terror she was going to die, to finding her way out of it with time, and most importantly, context to process and a strong support system. She and Joe emphasize the reality that bad trips can happen at any time, with any dose, for any reason, and that – if you can make your way through the experience without being traumatized – you can learn a lot about yourself during those states.

She discusses:

• Methods to help others having a bad experience
• Her skepticism about psychedelic therapy being in a medical context at all
• Her thoughts on the recent ICER recommendation against approving MDMA and the multiple topics not addressed
• Possible complications from MDMA use nobody talks about, from cytotoxic effects to even sudden-onset psychosis
• The pathologizing of anything outside the ordinary, to the point that we're trying to suppress natural human emotions and reactions

and more! 

Rex's book, "The Heroine's Journey: A Woman's Quest for Sanity in the Psychedelic Age" will be published by She Writes Press in the spring of 2026.

For links, head to the show notes page.

In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, Johanna interviews Monica Nieto: Vital graduate, psychedelic facilitator and integration coach, and founder of Holistic TherapeutiX, a retreat center offering cannabis and breathwork retreats; and Jordana Ma: past Vital instructor and psychological counselor who runs retreats in Peru following the Asháninkan tradition of traditional Amazonian medicine.

They discuss their similar paths to psychedelics and healing, the power of plant dietas and fully immersing yourself into nature, and learning to hear your true teacher: the inner healer. They highlight how we've lost the connection to the ecological consciousness within our bodies, and how the plants – perhaps in a self-serving way – have become allies, trying to teach us to heal the web we're a part of and reconnect to nature and ourselves.

They discuss:

• The importance of combining traditional perspectives and Western psychotherapy into a spiritual practice
• The similarities between yoga and traditional Amazonian medicine
• Singing as a somatic (and breathwork) practice
• How things are meant to work in synergy, and the problem with science trying to extract compounds rather than respecting the power of the whole plant
• Their role models who have inspired them and informed their work

and more!

The Vital Early Bird discount ($2000 off!) ends on July 22, so make sure to apply today!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, Joe interviews Jon Reiss: critically acclaimed filmmaker, author, and host of the Plantscendence podcast, which tells people's psychedelic stories and is beginning its second season soon.

He talks about his early days of directing Nine Inch Nails and Type O Negative videos, and how Plantscendence was born after he realized that the conversations he was having with people about their most transformative experiences were perfect for a podcast. He discusses his first psychedelic experience with ayahuasca, how microdosing is helping him today, and his realization that people can get to these big experiences in many different ways.

He discusses:

• The two episodes of Plantscendence that stand out the most to him
• Using the term, 'plant medicine'
• His 30 years of meditation practice and how it likely helped him to integrate his first psychedelic experiences
• The concept of plant intelligence and how plants can stop you from being a "consciousness tourist"
• Kabbalah, Kashmir Shaivism, non-duality, and his Shaktipat experience

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, David interviews Sara Reed: Vital instructor, lecturer, and lead psychedelic research therapist at Imperial College London; and Alex H. Robinson: Vital student, integration coach and psilocybin facilitator for Heroic Hearts Project, and distinguished Army SOF combat Veteran with a decade of active duty service.

Reed has worked with MAPS to make clinical trial populations more diverse and is creating culturally sensitive Clinical Research Forms for future research trials, and Robinson spearheaded her unit's Cultural Support Team program and contributed to policy changes to help place women into traditionally male-centric Special Operations roles. Representing marginalized groups themselves, they're both passionate about making psychedelic therapy more inclusive and representative of the general population, and getting more practitioners up to speed to be able to deliver culturally competent care.

They discuss:

• The importance of having difficult conversations and calling out bad behavior
• The fallacy of zero-sum thinking: Doing something special for a smaller community doesn't take away from the main goal; it adds to it
• The benefit of being able to self-reflect and personalize content when most psychedelic education consists of one-sided lectures
• The challenge of getting people who don't feel represented to enroll in clinical trials, and how personal stories go a long way

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

Vitalpsychedelictraining.com

Episode summary

Joe and Mary dive into how platform censorship and shifting algorithms have reshaped psychedelic media, why DoubleBlind moved to a "newsletter-first" model, and what that's revealed about true audience engagement. They reflect on the post-2024 MDMA decision headwinds, state-level policy moves (wins and losses), and how funding, politics, and culture continue to reconfigure the field. They also explore alternatives to alcohol, chronic pain research, reciprocity around iboga/ibogaine, and lessons from PS25 (MAPS' Psychedelic Science 2025).

Highlights & themes

• From platforms to inboxes: Social and search suppression (IG/FB/Google) throttled harm-reduction journalism; DoubleBlind's pivot to email dramatically improved reach and engagement.
• Post-MDMA decision reality: Investment cooled; Mary frames it as painful but necessary growth—an ecosystem "airing out" rather than a catastrophic pop.
• Policy pulse: Mixed year—some state measures stalled (e.g., MA), others advanced (e.g., NM; ongoing Colorado process). Rescheduling cannabis may add complexity more than clarity.
• Censorship paradox: Suppressing education makes use less safe; independent outlets need community support to keep harm-reduction info visible.
• Chronic pain & long COVID: Emerging overlaps and training efforts (e.g., Psychedelics & Pain communities) point beyond a psychiatry-only frame.
• Alcohol alternatives: Low-dose or occasional psychedelic use can shift habits for some; Mary stresses individual context and support beyond any single substance.
• Reciprocity & iboga: Rising interest (including from right-leaning funders) must include Indigenous consultation and fair benefit-sharing; pace of capitalism vs. community care is an active tension.
• PS25 field notes: Smaller, more manageable vibe than 2023; fewer "gold-rush" expectations; in-person dialogue beats online flame wars.

Notable mentions

• DoubleBlind: Newsletter-first publishing; nurturing new writers and reported stories.
• Psychedelics & Pain Association / Clusterbusters: Community-driven models informing care and research (cluster headache protocols history).
• Books & media: Body Autonomy (Synergetic Press anthology); Joanna Kempner's work on cluster headaches - Psychedelic Outlaws; Lucy Walker's forthcoming iboga film.
• Compounds to watch: LSD (under-studied relative to MDMA), 2C-B, 5-MeO-DMT (synthetic focus), and broader Shulgin-inspired families.

 

Mary Carreon: [00:00:00] Okay, I'm gonna send it to my dad because he wants to know. Here

Joe Moore: we go. Yeah, send it over. So, hi everybody. We're live Joe here with Mary Anne, how you doing today?

Mary Carreon: I'm great Joe. How are you?

Joe Moore: Lovely. I actually never asked you how to pronounce your last name does say it right?

Mary Carreon: Yes, you did. You said it perfectly

Joe Moore: lovely.

Joe Moore: Um, great. So it's been a bit, um, we are streaming on LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitch X and Kick, I guess. Yeah. Kick meta. Meta doesn't let me play anymore. Um,

Mary Carreon: you're in forever. Timeout. I got it. I got it. Yeah.

Joe Moore: Yeah. I think they found a post the other day from 2017. They didn't like, I'm like, oh cool. Like neat, you

Mary Carreon: know, you know.

Mary Carreon: Yeah. That happened to me recently, actually. Uh, I had a post taken down from 2018 about, uh, mushroom gummies and yeah, it was taken down and I have strikes on my account now. So

Joe Moore: Do you get the thing where they ask you if you're okay?

Mary Carreon: Yes, with, but like with my searches though, [00:01:00] like if I search something or, or someone's account that has, uh, like mushroom or psychedelic or LSD or something in it, they'll be like, mm-hmm are you okay?

Mary Carreon: And then it recommends getting help. So

Joe Moore: it's like, to be fair, I don't know if I'm okay, but Yeah, you're like, probably not. I don't really want your help. Meta. Yeah.

Mary Carreon: You're like, I actually do need help, but not from you. Thanks. Yeah,

Joe Moore: yeah, yeah.

Mary Carreon: So not from the techno fascists.

Joe Moore: Oh, good lord. Yeah. Uh, we'll go there.

Joe Moore: I'm sure.

Mary Carreon: I know. I just like really dove right there. Sorry. Yeah. All right, so let's,

Joe Moore: um, before we go, let's give people like a bit of, you know, high kicks on, on who is Mary, where you working these days and what are you doing?

Mary Carreon: Yeah, thank you. My name is Mary Carryon and I am forever and first and foremost a journalist.

Mary Carreon: I have been covering, I say the plant legalization spaces for the past decade. It's, it's been nine and a half years. Uh, on January 3rd it will be [00:02:00] 10 years. And I got my start covering cannabis, uh, at OC Weekly. And from there went to High Times, and from there went to Mary Jane, worked for Snoop Dogg. And then, uh, I am now.

Mary Carreon: Double blind. And I have become recently, as of this year, the editor in chief of Double Blind, and that's where I have been currently sinking my teeth into everything. So currently, you know, at this moment I'm an editor and I am basically also a curator. So, and, and somebody who is a, uh, I guess an observer of this space more than anything these days.

Mary Carreon: Um, I'm not really reporting in the same way that I was. Um, but still I am helping many journalists tell stories and, uh, I feel kind of like a story midwife in many ways. Just like helping people produce stories and get the, get the quotes, get the angles that need to be discussed, get the sentences structures right, and, um, uh, helping [00:03:00] sometimes in a visionary kind of, uh, mindset.

Mary Carreon: So yeah, that's what I'm doing these days.

Joe Moore: Oh, there it is. Oh, there you are. Love that. And um, you know, it's important to have, um, editors who kind of really get it from a lot of different angles. I love that we have a lot of alignment on this kind of, and the drug war thing and kind of let's, uh, hopefully start developing systems that are for people.

Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. If you wanna just say that. Yeah, absolutely.

Mary Carreon: Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Moore: So, um, yeah, I almost 10 years in January. That's great. We um, it's so crazy that it's been that long. I think we just turned nine and a half, so we're maybe just a few, a few months shorter than your I love it. Plant medicine reporting career.

Joe Moore: That's great. I love it. Um, yeah, so I think. I think one of the first times we chatted, [00:04:00] um, I think you were doing a piece about two cb Do you, do you have any recollection of doing a piece on two cb?

Mary Carreon: I do, yes. Yes. Wait, I also remember hitting you up during an Instagram live and I was like, are you guys taking any writers?

Mary Carreon: And you guys were like writers, I mean, maybe depending on the writer.

Joe Moore: And I was like, I was like, I dunno how that works.

Mary Carreon: Like me. Yeah.

Joe Moore: Yeah. It was fun. It was fun to work with people like yourself and like get pieces out there. And eventually we had an awesome editor for a bit and that was, that was really cool to be able to like support young startup writers who have a lot of opinions and a lot of things to point out.

Joe Moore: There's so much happening. Um, there was so much fraud in like wave one. Of kind of the psychedelic investment hype. There's still some, but it's lesser. Um, and it's really a fascinating space still. Like changing lives, changing not just lives, right? Like our [00:05:00] perspective towards nearly everything, right?

Joe Moore: Yeah.

Mary Carreon: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's interesting because the space has matured. It's evolved. It's different than it was even, what a, I mean, definitely nine years ago, but even five years ago, even four years ago, even last year, things are different. The landscape is different than it was a year ago.

Mary Carreon: And I, it's, it's interesting to see the politics of things. It's interesting to see who has money these days given like how hard it is just to kind of survive in this space. And it's interesting just to. Bear witness to all of this going down because it really is a once in a lifetime thing. Nothing is gonna look the same as it does now, as it, uh, then it will like in a, in a year from now or anything.

Mary Carreon: So it's really, yeah. It's interesting to take account of all of this

Joe Moore: That's so real. Uh, maybe a little [00:06:00] too real, like it's serious because like with everything that's going on from, um, you know, governance, governments, ai Yes. Drug policy shifts. Drug tech shifts, yes. There's so much interesting movement. Um, yes.

Joe Moore: You, you know, you, you kind of called it out and I think it's really actually worth discussing here since we're both here on the air together, like this idea that the psychedelic market, not idea, the lived experience of the psychedelic market having shifted substantially. And I, I, I think there's a lot of causes.

Joe Moore: But I've never had the opportunity to really chat with you about this kind of like interesting downturn in money flowing into the space. Mm-hmm. Have you thought about it? Like what might the causes be? I'm sure you have.

Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah, I have. Yeah. I've thought about it. I mean, it's hard. Well, I don't know. I am really not trying to point fingers and that's not what I'm [00:07:00] trying to do here.

Mary Carreon: But I mean, I think a lot of people were really hopeful that the FDA decision last June, not last June, the previous June, a year ago, 2024, June was going to open the floodgates in terms of funding, in terms of, um. In terms of mostly funding, but also just greater opportunities for the space and, uh, greater legitimacy granted to the psychedelic medicine space.

Mary Carreon: Mm. And for those who might not know what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the, uh, FDA decision to reject, uh, MDMA assisted therapy and, um, that whole, that whole thing that happened, I'm sure if it, you didn't even have to really understand what was going on in order to get wind of that wild situation.

Mary Carreon: Um, so, so maybe, yeah. You probably know what I'm talking about, but I, I do think that that had a great impact on this space. Do I think it was detrimental to this space? [00:08:00] I don't think so. We are in a growth spurt, you know, like we are growing and growing pains happen when you are evolving and changing and learning and figuring out the way forward.

Mary Carreon: So I think it was kind of a natural process for all of this and. If things had gone forward like while, yeah, there probably would be more money, there would be greater opportunity in this space for people wanting to get in and get jobs and make a living and have a life for themselves in this, in this world.

Mary Carreon: I don't know if it was, I don't know if it would necessarily be for the betterment of the space in general for the long term. I think that we do have to go through challenges in order for the best case scenarios to play out in the future, even though that's difficult to say now because so many of us are struggling.

Mary Carreon: So, but I, but I have hope and, and that statement is coming from a place of hope for the future of this space and this culture.

Joe Moore: Yeah. It's, um, I'm with [00:09:00] you. Like we have to see boom bust cycles. We have to see growth and contraction just like natural ecosystems do.

Mary Carreon: Absolutely, absolutely. It has to be that way.

Mary Carreon: And if it's not that way, then ifs, if. It's, it like what forms in place of that is a big bubble or like a, a hot air balloon that's inevitably going to pop, which, like, we are kind of experiencing that. But I think that the, I think that the, um, the, the air letting out of the balloon right now is a much softer experience than it would be if everything was just like a green light all the way forward, if that makes sense.

Mary Carreon: So,

Joe Moore: right. And there's, there's so many factors. Like I'm, I'm thinking about, uh, metas censorship like we were talking about before. Yes. Other big tech censorship, right? Mm-hmm. SEO shifts.

Mary Carreon: Oh. Um, yes, absolutely. Also, uh, there were some pretty major initiatives on the state level that did not pass also this past year that really would've also kind of [00:10:00] helped the landscape a little bit.

Mary Carreon: Um. In terms of creating jobs, in terms of creating opportunities for funding, in terms of having more, uh, like the perception of safer money flow into the space and that, you know, those, those things didn't happen. For instance, the measure for in Massachusetts that didn't go through and just, you know, other things that didn't happen.

Mary Carreon: However, there have been really good things too, in terms of, uh, legalization or various forms of legalization, and that's in New Mexico, so we can't, you know, forget that there, and we also can't forget just the movement happening in Colorado. So there are really great things happening and the, the movement is still moving forward.

Mary Carreon: Everything is still going. It's just a little more difficult than maybe it could have been

Joe Moore: right. Yeah. Amen. Amen. Yes. But also, we

Mary Carreon: can't forget this censorship thing. The censorship thing is a horse shit. Sorry. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to cuss, but it is, [00:11:00] but it is

Joe Moore: calling it out and it's important to say this stuff.

Joe Moore: And you know, folks, if you want to support independent media, please consider supporting Doubleblind and psychedelics today. From a media perspective, absolutely. We wanna wanna put as much out as we can. Yes. The more supporters we have, the more we can help all of you understand what's happening and yes.

Joe Moore: Getting you to stay safer.

Mary Carreon: Yeah, absolutely. And that's the whole difficulty with the censorship is that psychedelics today, and Doubleblind for instance, but also Lucid News, also other, uh, other influencers, other creators in the space, they like. What all of us are doing is putting out information that is ultimately creating a safer user experience.

Mary Carreon: And so with the censorship, we are not able to do so anymore, which creates actually a lot of danger. So. Yeah, it's, it's difficult. The censorship is difficult, and if you are somebody who posts about psychedelics, I know that you know this and I am preaching to the choir.

Joe Moore: Yeah. So can you talk a [00:12:00] little bit about you all at Double Blind made a major shift in the last number of months towards, uh, kind of not necessarily putting everything out there and, and kind of like, um, actually I don't even know the language you use.

Joe Moore: What's the, what's the language you use for the kind of model shift you took on?

Mary Carreon: Yeah, I mean, it's great. It's been a wild shift. It's been a wild shift. Um, what we are currently doing is we went to a newsletter first model, which instead of just posting onto a website for everyone to see, and then, um, you know, hopefully getting SEO hits and also posting on their, then posting those stories onto Instagram and Facebook and Twitter, and hoping to get traffic through social media.

Mary Carreon: Uh, we decided that that was no longer working for us because it wasn't, um, because the censorship is so bad on, on social media, like on Instagram, for instance, and Facebook and Twitter, well, less on Twitter, [00:13:00] but still, nonetheless on social media, the censorship is so bad. And also the censorship exists on Google.

Mary Carreon: When you Google search how to take mushrooms, double blinds is not even on. You know, our guide is not on the first page. It's like, you know, way the heck, way the heck down there. Maybe page 2, 3, 4, 5. I don't know. But, um, the issue, the issue with that, or, or the reason why rather that it's that way is because Google is prioritizing, um, like rehabilitation centers for this information.

Mary Carreon: And also they are prioritizing, uh, medical information. So, like WebMD for instance. And all of these organizations that Google is now prioritizing are u are, are, are, are organizations that see psychedelic use through the lens of addiction or through drug drug abuse. So [00:14:00] again, you know, I don't know, take it for how you want to, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna tell anybody like what is the right way to use their substances or whatever.

Mary Carreon: However, it's really important to have the proper harm reduction resources and tools available. Uh, just readily available, not five pages down on a Google search. So anyways, all of that said double blind was our traffic was way down. And it was looking very bleak for a while. Just we were getting kicked off of Instagram.

Mary Carreon: We weren't getting any traffic from social media onto our website, onto our stories. It was a, it was a vicious kind of cycle downward, and it wasn't really working. And there was a moment there where Doubleblind almost shut down as a result of these numbers because there's a, like you, a media company cannot sustain itself on really low page views as a result.

Mary Carreon: So what we [00:15:00] decided to do was go to a newsletter first model, which relies on our email list. And basically we are sending out newsletters three days a week of new original content, mostly, uh, sometimes on Wednesdays we repost an SEO story or something like that. Um, to just to engage our audience and to work with our audience that way, and to like to actually engage our audience.

Mary Carreon: I cannot emphasize that enough because on Instagram and on Facebook, we were only reaching like, I don't know, not that many people, like not that many people at all. And all of that really became obvious as soon as we started sending out to our email list. And as soon as we did that, it was wild. How many, how many views to the website and also how many just open like our open rate and our click through rate were showing how our audience was reacting to our content.

Mary Carreon: In other words. [00:16:00] Social media was not a good, in, like, was not a good indicator of how our content was being received at all because people kind of weren't even receiving it. So going to the newsletter first model proved to be very beneficial for us and our numbers. And also just reaching our freaking audience, which we were barely doing, I guess, on social media, which is, which is wild, you know, for, for a, an account that has a lot of followers, I forget at this exact moment, but we have a ton, double blind, has a ton of followers on, on Instagram.

Mary Carreon: We were, we, we get like 500 likes or, you know, maybe like. I don't know. If you're not looking at likes and you're looking at views, like sometimes we get like 16 K views, which, you know, seems good, but also compared to the amount of followers who follow us, it's like not really that great. And we're never reaching new, like a new audience.

Mary Carreon: We're always reaching the same audience too, [00:17:00] which is interesting because even with our news, with our, with our email list, we are still reaching new people, which is, which says just how much more fluid that space is. Mm-hmm. And it's because it's, because censorship does not at least yet exist in our inboxes.

Mary Carreon: And so therefore email is kind of like the underground, if you will, for this kind of content and this type of material journalism, et cetera. So, so yeah. So it, it, it has been a massive shift. It is required a lot of changes over at double blind. Everything has been very intense and crazy, but it has been absolutely worth it, and it's really exciting that we're still here.

Mary Carreon: I'm so grateful that Double-Blind is still around, that we are still able to tell stories and that we are still able to work with writers and nurture writers and nurture the storytelling in this space because it needs to evolve just the same way that the industry and the [00:18:00] culture and everything else is evolving.

Joe Moore: Yeah, I think, I think you're spot on like the, when I watch our Instagram account, like, um, I haven't seen the number change from 107 K for two years.

Mary Carreon: Absolutely. Same. And, um, same.

Joe Moore: Yeah. And you know, I think, I think there's certain kinds of content that could do fine. I think, uh, psychedelic attorney, Robert Rush put up a comment, um, in response to Jack Coline's account getting taken down, um, that had some good analysis, um.

Joe Moore: Of the situation. Go ahead. You had No,

Mary Carreon: no, I'm just like, you know, I can't, when, when journalists are getting kicked off of these, of these platforms for their stories, for their reported stories, that's like, that is a massive red flag. And that's all I have to say. I mean, we could go into more, more details on that, but that is a [00:19:00] huge red flag.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, for sure. The, I, yeah. And like I'm sure he'll get it back. I'm sure that's not for good, but I think he did. Okay, great.

Mary Carreon: I think he did. Yeah. Yeah, I think he did.

Joe Moore: Yeah. So thank you. Shout out to Jack. Yeah, thanks Jack. Um, and I think, you know, there's, there's no one with that kind of energy out there.

Joe Moore: Um, and I'm excited to see what happens over time with him. Yeah. How he'll unfold. Absolutely unfold. Oh yeah. It's like, um. Crushing the beat.

Mary Carreon: Oh yeah, absolutely. Especially the political, the political beat. Like, there's no, there's few people who are really tackling that specific sector, which is like mm-hmm.

Mary Carreon: So exciting for a journalist.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so model shifting, like we all have to like, adapt in new ways. Kyle and I are still trying to figure out what we're gonna do. Like maybe it is newsletter first. Like I, I realized that I hadn't been writing for [00:20:00] years, which is problematic, um, in that like, I have a lot of things to say.

Mary Carreon: Totally.

Joe Moore: And nobody got to hear it. Um, so I started a substack, which I had complicated feelings about honestly. 'cause it's just another. Rich person's platform that I'm, you know, helping them get Andreessen money or whatever. And, you know, so I'm gonna play lightly there, but I will post here and there. Um, I'm just trying to figure it all out, you know, like I've put up a couple articles like this GLP one and Mushrooms article.

Mary Carreon: I saw that. I saw that. Really? And honestly, that's a really, like, it's so weird, but I don't, like, it's such a weird little thing that's happening in the space. I wonder, yeah, I wonder, I wonder how that is going to evolve. It's um, you know, a lot of people, I, I briefly kind of wrote about, um, psychedelics and the GLP, is that what it is?

Mary Carreon: GLP one.

Joe Moore: GLP one. Say Ozempic. Yeah, just, yeah, Ozempic. Yeah, exactly.

Mary Carreon: Yeah, exactly. I wrote about [00:21:00] that briefly last year and there were a bunch of people like obviously horrified, which it is kind of horrifying, but also there's a bunch of people who believe that it is extremely cutting edge, which it also is.

Mary Carreon: So it's really interesting, really fascinating.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, I remember Bernie Sanders saying like, if this drug gets as much traction as it needs to, it will bankrupt Medicaid. I guess that's not really a problem anymore. Um, but, but, uh, but so like naming it real quick, like it changed the way we had to digest things, therefore, like mushrooms get digested differently and, um, some people don't respond in the expected ways.

Joe Moore: And then there was some follow up, oh, we, in the regulated model, we just do lemon tech. And then I was like, is that legal in the regulated model? And I, I don't know the answer still. Mm-hmm. Like there was a couple things, you know, if users know to do it, you know, I don't, I don't totally understand the regulated model's so strange in Oregon, Colorado, that like, we really need a couple lawyers opinions.

Joe Moore: Right. I think

Mary Carreon: yes, of course

Joe Moore: the lawyers just gave it a [00:22:00] thumbs up. They didn't even comment on the post, which is,

laughs: thanks guys. Um,

Joe Moore: but you know,

laughs: yeah. You're like, thank you.

Joe Moore: Thanks and diversity of opinions. So yeah, there's that. And like GLP ones are so interesting in that they're, one friend reached out and said she's using it in a microdose format for chronic neuroinflammation, which I had never heard of before.

Joe Moore: Whoa. And um, I think, you know, articles like that, my intent was to just say, Hey, researchers yet another thing to look at. Like, there's no end to what we need to be looking at. Abso

Mary Carreon: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know, reporting on this space actually taught me that there's so much just in general that isn't being researched, whether that's in this space, but also beyond and how, um, yeah, just how behind, actually, maybe not, maybe behind isn't the right word, but it kind of feels from my novice and from my novice place in the, in the world and [00:23:00] understanding research, it's.

Mary Carreon: Hard for me to see it as anything, but being behind in the research that we all really need, that's really going to benefit humanity. But also, you know, I get that it's because of funding and politics and whatever, whatever, you know, we can go on for days on all of that.

Joe Moore: What's the real reason? What's the real reason?

Joe Moore: Well, drug war.

Mary Carreon: Yeah. Well, yeah, definitely the drug war. Nixon. Yeah. Yes, yes, definitely the drug war. Yeah. I mean, and just the fact that even all of the drug research that happens is, again, through the lens of addiction and drug abuse, so

Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Hard to right. Yeah. Um, like ni a is obviously really ridiculous and, and the way they approach this stuff, and Carl Hart illustrates that well, and,

Mary Carreon: oh man, yes, he does.

Joe Moore: Like, I think Fadiman's lab in Palo Alto got shut down, like 67, 66 or 67, and like that's, you know, that was one of the later ones,

Mary Carreon: right? And,

Joe Moore: and like,

Mary Carreon: and here we are.

Joe Moore: The amount of suffering that could have been alleviated if we [00:24:00] had not done this is. Incalculable. Um, yes. Yes. Yeah.

Mary Carreon: I mean the, yeah, it's hard to say exactly how specifically it would be different, but it's difficult to also not think that the fentanyl crisis and the opioid addiction rate and situation that is currently like plaguing the, the world, but particularly the United States, it's hard to think that it wouldn't be, like, it wouldn't be a different scenario altogether.

Joe Moore: Right, right. Absolutely. Um, and it's, um, it's interesting to speculate about, right? Like Yeah. Yes. Where would we be? And

Mary Carreon: I know, I know, I know, I know it is speculation. Absolutely. But it's like hard, as I said, it's hard not to think that things would be different.

Joe Moore: Right. Right. Um, I like, there's two kind of quotes, like, um, not, this one's not really a quote.

Joe Moore: Like, we haven't really had a [00:25:00] blockbuster psychiatric med since Prozac, and I think that was in the eighties or early nineties, which is terrifying. And then, um, I think this guy's name is James Hillman. He is kinda like a Jungian, um, educator and I think the title of one of his books is, we're a hundred Years Into Psychotherapy and the World is Still a Mess.

Joe Moore: And I think like those two things are like, okay, so two different very white people approaches didn't go very far. Yes. Um, yes and

laughs: mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: Thankfully, I think a lot of people are seeing that. Mm-hmm. Um, finally and kind of putting energy into different ways. Um,

Mary Carreon: yeah. Absolutely. I think, yeah, I mean, we need to be exploring the other options at this point because what is currently happening isn't working on many fronts, but including in terms of mental health especially.

Mary Carreon: So mm-hmm. We gotta get going. Right? We [00:26:00] gotta get moving. Geez.

Joe Moore: Have you all, have you all seen much of the information around chronic pain treatments? Like I'm, I'm a founding board member with the Psychedelics and Pain Association, which has a really fun project. Oh, that's interesting.

Mary Carreon: Um, I've seen some of the studies around that and it's endlessly fascinating for obvious, for obvious reasons.

Mary Carreon: I, um, we have a writer who's been working for a long time on a story, uh, about the chronic pain that has since. Become an issue for this, for her, for the writer. Mm-hmm. Um, since she had COVID. Mm-hmm. Since, since she is just like, COVID was the onset basically of this chronic pain. And, um, there she attended a psychedelics in pain, chronic pain conference and, uh, that has pretty much like, changed her world.

Mary Carreon: Um, well, in terms of just the information that's out there, not necessarily that she's painless, but it's just, you know, offering a, a brand new, a brand new road, a brand new path that is giving her, [00:27:00] um, relief on days when the pain is, uh, substantial.

laughs: Yeah.

Mary Carreon: So that's interesting. And a lot of people are experiencing that as well.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. So there's, there's a really cool set of overlap between the COVID researchers, long COVID researchers and the chronic pain people. 'cause there is Yes. This new science of pain that's yes. Our group, PPA put out like a really robust kind of training, um, for clinicians and researchers and even patients to get more educated.

Joe Moore: And we're, we're getting, um, kind of boostered by cluster busters and we're kind of leveraging a lot of what they've done.

Mary Carreon: Wait, what is a cluster buster?

Joe Moore: Oh gosh. Um, so they're a 5 0 1 C3. Okay. Started with Bob Wald. Okay. Bob Wald is a cluster headache survivor. Oh, oh, oh,

Mary Carreon: okay. Got it. Got it. Yes. So they're

Joe Moore: the charity that, um, has been really championing, um, cluster headache research because they found a protocol [00:28:00] with mushrooms.

Joe Moore: Yes, yes, yes. To eliminate. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, this really great, I

Mary Carreon: love that.

Joe Moore: This really great book was written by a Rutgers, um, I think medical sociologist or anthropologist psychedelic. Love

laughs: that.

Joe Moore: Joanna Kempner. Cool. Um, and it kind of talks about the whole, um, cluster busters saga, and it was, it was pretty cool.

Joe Moore: Nice. So they've been at it for about as long as maps. Um, oh wow. Maybe a little earlier. Maybe a little later.

Mary Carreon: I love that. Cool. I mean, yeah, that's really great. That's really great.

Joe Moore: So we're copying their playbook in a lot of ways and Cool. We about to be our own 5 0 1 C3 and, um, nice. And that should be really fun.

Joe Moore: And, uh, the next conference is coming up at the end of next month if people wanna check that out. Psychedelic. Nice.

Mary Carreon: Nice, nice, nice. Cool.

Joe Moore: Yeah, so that, like, how I leaned into that was not only did I get a lot of help from chronic pain with psychedelics and going to Phish shows and whatever, um, you know, I, and overuse for sure helped me somehow.

Joe Moore: [00:29:00] Um, God bless. Yeah. But I, I like it because it breaks us out of the psychiatry only frame for psychedelics. Mm. And starts to make space for other categories. Mm-hmm. Is one of the bigger reasons I like it.

Mary Carreon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Which, like, we need to be, we need to, we, no one else is gonna do it for us. We like the people in the space who are finding new uses for these substances need to be creating those, those pathways and those new niches for people to then begin studying, et cetera, and exploring and yeah.

Mary Carreon: Making, making a proper avenue for,

Joe Moore: right, right. And, you know, um, I don't know that this is a Maha thing, so No, I'm going there, I guess, but like, how do we kind of face squarely America and the world's drinking problems? Not [00:30:00] knowing what we know now about alcohol, you know what I mean? And then like, what are the alternatives?

Joe Moore: You know, some, some writers out there on substack are very firm that everybody needs to not do any substance. And like all psychedelics are super bad and drugs are evil, you know, famous sub stackers that I won't name. But you know, like what is the alternative? Like, I, like we have to have something beyond alcohol.

Joe Moore: And I think you've found some cannabis helpful for that.

Mary Carreon: Yeah, I, you know, it's, it's interesting because it's, there are, there's definitely an argument to be made for the power of these substances in helping, I don't wanna, I don't wanna say curb, but definitely reduce the symptoms of, uh, wanting to use or to drink or to consume a specific substance.

Mary Carreon: There's obviously there is an argument to be made. There are, there is ano another camp of people who are kind [00:31:00] of in the, in the, in the, in the realm of using a drug to get off of a drug isn't how you do it. However, and, and I do, it depends on the individual. It depends on the individual and the, and how that person is engaging with their own addiction.

Mary Carreon: I think for whether or not the substances work, like whether psychedelics work to help somebody kind of get off of alcohol or get off of cocaine or stop using opioids or, you know, et cetera. Mm-hmm. However, I think like, when the situation is so dire, we need to be trying everything. And if that means, like, if, like, you know, if you look at the studies for like smoking cessation or alcohol use, mushrooms do help, psilocybin does help with that.

Mary Carreon: Mm-hmm. But, you know, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that also need to happen. There's a lot of things that also need to happen in order for those, uh, that relief to maintain and to stick and to, uh, really guide [00:32:00] somebody off of those substances. Mm-hmm. It's not just the substance itself.

Joe Moore: Right. So I'm, I'm explicitly talking like recreational alternatives, right. Like how do I Yeah. On per minute, like, am Anitas becoming helpful? Yeah, yeah. Are helpful and Yeah. Yeah. I think like even, um, normal. What we might call like normal American alcohol use. Like Yeah. That's still like, quite carcinogenic and like, um, absolutely.

Joe Moore: We're kind of trying to spend less as a country on cancer treatments, which I hope is true. Then how do we, how do we develop things that are, you know, not just abstinence only programs, which we know for sure aren't great.

Mary Carreon: Yeah. They don't work. Yeah. I don't, it's, it's difficult. Mm-hmm. It's difficult to say.

Mary Carreon: I mean mm-hmm. I don't know. Obviously I, I, well, maybe it's not obvious at all for people who don't know me, but, you know, I exist in a, I exist in, in a world where recreational use is like, it's like hard to define what recreational use is because if we are using this, if we are using mushrooms or LSD even, or MDMA, [00:33:00] you know, there are so many, there's a lot of the therapy that can happen through the use of these substances, even if we're not doing it, you know, with a blindfold on or whatever and yeah, I think like.

Mary Carreon: There is a decent swap that can happen if you, if you are somebody who doesn't wanna be, you know, having like three beers a night, or if you are somebody who's like, you know, maybe not trying to have like a bottle of wine at a night or something like that, you know, because like Americans drink a lot and a lot of the way that we drink is, um, you know, like we don't see it as alcoholism.

Mary Carreon: Even though it could be, it could be that's like a difficult

Joe Moore: potentially subclinical, but right there.

Mary Carreon: Um, yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's, um, we don't see it as that because everybody, a lot of people, not everybody, but a lot of people drink like that, if that makes sense. If you know mm-hmm. If you, if you get what I'm, if you get what I'm saying.

Mary Carreon: So, you know, I do think that there's a lot of benefit that, I don't [00:34:00] know, having, like a, having a mushroom, having a mushroom experience can really help. Or sometimes even like low dose, low doses of mushrooms can also really help with, like, with the. Desire to reach for a drink. Yeah, totally. And, and AMS as well.

Mary Carreon: I know that that's also helping people a lot too. And again, outside of the clinical framework.

Joe Moore: Yeah. I'm, a lot of people project on me that I'm just like constantly doing everything all the time and I'm, I'm the most sober I've been since high school. You know, like it's bonkers that like Yeah. Um, and you know, probably the healthiest event since high school too.

Joe Moore: Yeah. But it's fa it's fascinating that like, you know, psychedelics kind of helped get here and even if it was like For sure something that didn't look like therapy. Yeah,

Mary Carreon: yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I, I think, I think most of us here in this space are getting projected on as to like, you know, being like what Normies would consider druggies or something, or that we are just like, you know, high all the time.

Mary Carreon: Um, [00:35:00] I know that that is definitely something that I face regularly, like out in the world. Um, but, you know, I would also, I would also argue that. Uh, like mushrooms have completely altered my approach to health, my approach to mental health, and not even having to consume that, you know, that substance in order or that, you know, that fun fungi, in order for me to like tap into taking care of my mental health or approaching better, uh, food options, et cetera.

Mary Carreon: It's kind of like what these, it's like how the mushrooms continue to help you even after you have taken them. Like the messages still keep coming through if you work with them in that capacity. Right. And yeah, and also same with, same with LSD too. LSD has also kind my experiences with that have also guided me towards a healthier path as well.

Mary Carreon: I, I understand that maybe for some people it's not that way, but, um, for me that substance is a medicine as well, [00:36:00] or it can be.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so. What are, what are some things popping up these days about like US drug policy that's like getting exciting for you? Like, are you feeling feeling like a looming optimism about a, a major shift?

Joe Moore: Are you kind of like cautiously optimistic with some of the weird kind of mandatory minimum stuff that's coming up or?

Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know that there was a huge, a, a pretty huge shift over at the DEA and I wish I remembered, I wish I remembered his name. The new guy who's now, I believe the head of the DEA, I don't know enough information about it to really feel a way.

Mary Carreon: However, I don't think that he's necessarily going to be serving us as a community here, uh, in the psychedelic space. I, you know, I just don't think that that's something that we can ever depend on with the DEA. Uh, I also don't think that [00:37:00] the DEA is necessarily going to be. All that helpful to cannabis, like the cannabis space either.

Mary Carreon: Um, I know that, that Trump keeps kind of discussing or, or dangling a carrot around the rescheduling of cannabis. Um, for, he's been, he's been, but he's doing it a lot more now. He's been talking about it more recently. Uh, he says like, in the next like couple weeks that he's going to have some kind of decision around that, allegedly.

Mary Carreon: But we will see also, I'm not sure that it's going to necessarily help anybody if we reschedule two. Uh, what from schedule one to schedule th two, three, schedule three.

Joe Moore: Either way it's like not that useful. Right. Exactly.

Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's, um, just going to probably cause a lot more red tape and a lot of confusion for the state rec markets.

Mary Carreon: So it's like something that we, it's like only ridden with unintentional, unintentional consequences. Unintended consequences. Mm-hmm. Because no one knows how it's really going to [00:38:00] impact anything, um, if, if at all. But I don't know. It's hard, it's hard to imagine that there won't be any, uh, like more complex regulatory issues for business owners and also probably consumers as well.

Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. This guy's name's Terry Cole.

Mary Carreon: Oh, the new DEA guy.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, I don't know much about him. Terry. Yeah. Terry, I would love to chat.

Mary Carreon: Yeah. Terry, let's talk. I'm sure your people

Joe Moore: are watching. Yeah. So like, just let him know. We wanna chat. Yeah. We'll come to DC and chat it out. Um, yeah. It's, um, but yeah, I, Carl Hart's solution to me makes like almost most of the sense in the world to just end the scheduling system Absolutely.

Joe Moore: And start building some sort of infrastructure to keep people safe. That's clearly not what we have today.

Mary Carreon: No. But building an infrastructure around the health and wellness and uh, safety of [00:39:00] people is the exact opposite system that we have currently right now. Because also the scheduling system has a lot to do with the incarceration in the United States and the criminal just, or the criminal system.

Mary Carreon: So, so yeah, like we can't disentangle the two really.

Joe Moore: It just started, um, I feel negligent on this. Uh, synergetic press put out a book like a year or two ago called Body Autonomy. Mm-hmm. Um, did that one come across your desk at all? Mm-hmm. No. I wish basically contributed. Oh, nice. A number of people. So it's both like, um.

Joe Moore: Drug policy commentary and then like sex work commentary. Oh, nice. And it was like high level, like love that really, really incredible love that detailed science based conversations, which is not what we have around this. Like, that doesn't make me feel good. So you should go to jail kind of stuff. Or like, I'm gonna humiliate you for real though.

Joe Moore: Ticket. Yeah,

Mary Carreon: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh God. Uh, when you think about it like that, it just really also shows [00:40:00] just the uh, um, the level at which religion has also kind of fundamentally infused itself into the scheduling system, but also our laws, you know, like what you just said, this like, shame-based, I'm going to embarrass you and make you into a criminal when you know actually you are a law for the most part, a law abiding citizen, with the exception of this one thing that you're doing for.

Mary Carreon: A, your survival and or your, like, your feeling good, wanting to feel good addressing pain. Um, there's a large, uh, like noise coming out of the front yard of my house right now. Hold on. Just a, it doesn't sound too bad. It doesn't sound too bad. Okay. Okay, good. Not at all. Not at all. Okay. Yeah, I had

Joe Moore: people working on my roof all day and somehow it worked out.

Joe Moore: Oh, good. Um, yeah. Um, yeah, it's, it's fascinating and I, I've been coming around like, I, I identify as politically confused, [00:41:00] um, and I feel like it's the most honest way I can be. Um,

Mary Carreon: I am also politically confused these days, impossible to align with any, uh, party or group currently in existence at this exact juncture in American history.

Joe Moore: I can't find any that I want to throw my dice in with. Nah. This idea of like fucking way being. Like what is the most humane way to do government as a way it's been put to me recently. And that's interesting. So it comes down to like coercion, are we caring for people, things like that. And um, I don't think we're doing it in a super humane way right now.

Mary Carreon: Um, we, yeah, I am pretty sure that even if there was, I mean, I think that even if we looked at the data, the data would support that we are not doing it in a humane way.

Joe Moore: So

Mary Carreon: unfortunately, and

Joe Moore: you know, this whole tech thing, like the tech oligarch thing, you kind of dropped at the beginning and I think it's worth bringing that back because we're, we're on all [00:42:00] these tech platforms.

Joe Moore: Like that's kind of like how we're transmitting it to people who are participating in these other platforms and like, you know, it's not all meta. I did turn on my personal Facebook, so everybody's watching it there. I hope. Um, see if that count gets,

Mary Carreon: um,

Joe Moore: but you know, this idea that a certain number of private corporations kind of control.

Joe Moore: A huge portion of rhetoric. Um, and you know, I think we probably got Whiffs of this when Bezos bought Washington Post and then Yes. You know, Musk with X and like yes. You know, is this kind of a bunch of people who don't necessarily care about this topic and the way we do, and they're like in larger topics too about humane government and like, you know, moving things in good directions.

Joe Moore: Um, I don't know, thoughts on that rift there as it relates to anything you, wherever you wanna go. Yeah.

Mary Carreon: Yeah. I mean, I don't think that they are looking at, I don't think that they are looking [00:43:00] at it the way that we are. I don't think that they can see it from their vantage point. Um, I think that like, in the, in a similar way that so many CEOs who run businesses have no fucking clue about what's actually happening in their businesses and the actual workers and, and employees of their businesses can tell them in more detail.

Mary Carreon: Far more detail about what's actually happening on the, on the floor of their own business. Uh, I think that it is something like that. However, that's not to say that, you know, these, these CEOs who employ people who build the A algorithm are obviously guided to create the limitations on us as people who speak about drugs, et cetera, and are creating a algorithm that ultimately is looking at things in a very blanket way in terms of, uh, like we're probably seen on the same level as like drug dealers, if that makes sense.

Mary Carreon: Which is obviously a much, you know, there's, [00:44:00] it's a very different thing. Um, so, you know, there's like these CEOs are giving directions to their employees to ultimately create systems that harm. Information flow and inform and, and like the information health of, of platforms and of just people in general.

Mary Carreon: So it's hard to say because there's nuance there, obviously, but I would bet you that someone like Elon Musk doesn't really have a full grasp as to the, the nuances and details of what's even happening within, on the ground floor of his businesses. Because that's like, not how CEOs in America run, run, and operate.

Mary Carreon: They're stupid companies. So, so yeah. And I feel like that, like, that's across the board, like that's across the board. That's how I, that's probably how Zuck is operating with Meta and Facebook, et cetera. And yeah, just likewise and across, across the whole, [00:45:00] across the whole spectrum.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think, um, a thing.

Joe Moore: Then as the people like, we need to keep looking at how can we keep each other informed. And that's kind of circling back to drug journalism like we do and like, um, other, other sorts of journalism that doesn't really get the press it deserves. Right. And I've been getting far more content that I find more valuable off of tragically back on Zucks platform like IG is getting me so much interesting content from around the world that no major outlet's covering.

Mary Carreon: That's so interesting. Like what? Like what would you say?

Joe Moore: Oh, um, uh, certain, um, violent situations overseas. Oh, oh, got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, you know, that America's paying for, so like, you know, I just don't love that I don't have a good, you know, journalistic source I can [00:46:00] point to, to say, hey, like right.

Joe Moore: These writers with names, with addresses, like, and offices here. Yes. You know, they did the work and they're held, you know, they're ethical journalists, so yes. You can trust them. Right. You know what I mean? Yes,

Mary Carreon: yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, all of this makes everything so much harder for determining, like, the censorship specifically makes it so much harder for the people to determine like, what's real, what's not.

Mary Carreon: Because, because of exactly what you just said. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, we are, we are basically what that means, like what is required of the people and people who are consuming information is becoming a smart consumer and being able to determine what's real, what's not. How can we trust this individual?

Mary Carreon: How can we not, which isn't analysis process that all of us need to be sharpening every single day, especially with the advent of AI and, uh, how quickly this, this type of content is coming at all of us. Like, especially if you're on TikTok, which many of us are, you know, like information comes flying at you 3000 miles an hour, and it's sometimes [00:47:00] really difficult to determine what's real, what's not, because AI is.

Mary Carreon: AI is not where it's going to be, and it still is in its nascent phase. However, it's still pretty fucking good and it's still very confusing on there. So, so again, like the media literacy of the people needs to be sharpened every single day. We cannot be on there, we cannot be on the internet existing.

Mary Carreon: That everything that we are seeing is real. Whether that's about, you know, these, um, the violence overseas, uh, happening at the hands of the United States, whether that is, uh, even drug information like, you know, et cetera, all of all of it. Or just like news about something happening at Yellowstone National Park or something that is happening in the, uh, at like.

Mary Carreon: Um, like potential riots also happening at protests in downtown la, et cetera. Like all, all of it, we need to be so careful. And I think what that also, like, one way that [00:48:00] we can adjust and begin to develop our media literacy skills is talking to people maybe who are there, reaching out to people who are saying that they were there and asking them questions, and also sussing that out.

Mary Carreon: You know, obviously we can't do that for all situations, but definitely some of them.

Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Like,

Joe Moore: um, a quick pivot. Mm-hmm. Were you at PS 25?

Mary Carreon: Yes, I was. What did I think? Uh, you know, I, I was running around like crazy at this one. I felt like I didn't even have a second to breathe and I feel like I didn't even have a second to really see anybody. I was like, worry. I was jumping from one stage to the next.

Mary Carreon: However, I would say, uh, one of, one of the things that I have said and how I felt about it was that I felt that this, this event was smaller than it was two years ago. And I preferred that I preferred the reduction in size just because it was, uh, less over, less overwhelming [00:49:00] in an, in an already very overwhelming event.

Mary Carreon: Um, but I thought that from the panels that I did see that everyone did a really great job. I thought that maps, you know, it's impressive that maps can put on an event like that. Um, I also was very cognizant that the suits were there in full effect and, uh, you know, but that's not unusual. That's how it was last time as well.

Mary Carreon: And, um, I felt that there was

Mary Carreon: a, uh, like the, the, the level of excitement and the level of like opportunity and pro, like the prosperous. The like, prospect of prosperity coming down the pipeline like tomorrow, you know, kind of vibe was different than last time. Mm-hmm. Which that was very present at the one, two years ago, uh, which was the last PS psychedelic science.

Mary Carreon: Yeah. Um, anyways. Yeah. But it was, you know, it was really nice to see everybody. [00:50:00] I feel like in-person events is a great way for everybody in the psychedelic space to be interacting with each other instead of like keyboard warrioring against each other, you know, uh, over the computer and over the internet.

Mary Carreon: I think that, um, yeah, uh, being in person is better than being fighting each other over the internet, so, yeah.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. People seem to be a little bit more civil in person.

Mary Carreon: Exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm. And I think that that is something that we all need to be considering more often, and also inviting people from across the aisle to your events and creating peace, because in person it's a little different than it is.

Mary Carreon: When you have the opportunity to, uh, yeah, like keyboard attack someone over the internet, it's like, yeah. It's just so silly. So silly. We look like fools. Like we look like absolute idiots doing that. And you know what? I cannot sit here and say that I haven't looked like an idiot. So, you know, it's like I'm not, I'm not talking from like a high horse over here, but, but you know, it's like, it's [00:51:00] better when it's in person.

Mary Carreon: I feel like there's like more civil engagements that we can all have.

Joe Moore: It's practice, you know? Yeah. We're learning. Yeah. We are. We should be learning, including us, and yes, of course. Um, I, I play a subtler game these days and, uh, you know, I, I, I, it's better when we all look a lot better in my opinion, because yes, we can inform policy decisions, we can be the ones helping inform really important things about how these things should get implemented and absolutely right.

Joe Moore: Like,

Mary Carreon: absolutely. Yeah, it does. It does. Nobody, any service, especially these medicines, especially these sacraments, especially these plants, these molecules, et cetera, if we are all sitting here fighting each other and like calling each other names and trying to dunk on one another, when like in reality, we are also all kind of pushing for the same thing more or less.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. So a thing that [00:52:00] I, it's a, it's kind of a, I, I had a great time at PS 25. I have no, no real complaints. I just wish I had more time. Yeah, same. Um, same. Yeah. Our booth was so busy. It was so fun. Just good. And it was like, good. I, I know. It was really good. I'm trying to say it out loud. I get to talk at the conference before Rick did.

laughs: Oh, oh,

Joe Moore: the morning show they put us on at like seven 30 in the morning or something crazy. Oh my god. It was early. I dunno if it was seven 30.

Mary Carreon: That's so early. That's so early.

Joe Moore: Yeah, right. Like that's crazy. I got zero nightlife in That's okay. Um, I was not, I was there for work. Yeah,

Mary Carreon: yeah. I was

Joe Moore: jealous. I didn't party, but you know, whatever.

Joe Moore: Yeah, yeah.

Mary Carreon: I did not party this time really in the same way that I did at PS 20. Was it 2023?

Joe Moore: 23, yeah. 23. I only stay up till 11 one night in 23. Nice.

Mary Carreon: Okay. Um, okay.

Joe Moore: So I behaved, I have a pattern of behaving. 'cause I like That's good. I'm so bent outta shape inside going into these things. I'm like, I know, I know.

Joe Moore: And, and I'm like, oh, all [00:53:00] my friends are gonna be there. It's gonna be great. And then it's like, yeah. It's mostly friends and only a little bit of stress. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah,

Mary Carreon: yeah. I had a, I had a great time. It was really good seeing everybody again. Like you, I wish that I had more time with people. Like there are people that I like didn't even see who are my friends,

Joe Moore: so, which Yeah.

Joe Moore: Which is sad. That's like a subtext in, in like the notes coming away from 25. Is that the, um, American Right, if we wanna call it that, is very interested in this stuff. Oh yeah. Like the Texas establishment. Oh yeah. Um, the Texas contingent, right? They're deep. They're real deep. Mm-hmm. I have, um,

Mary Carreon: let's talk about that more.

Mary Carreon: Yeah. So

Joe Moore: it's optimistic in, in some sense that psychedelic science is getting funded more. By states. 'cause the feds aren't stepping up. Right. I love that. Right. Yeah. Like, Hey feds, look what we can do. And you can't somehow, and [00:54:00] then, um, we'll see if state rights stays around for a while longer, maybe, maybe not.

Joe Moore: And then the other part is like, is there a slippery slope given the rhetoric around addiction and the rise in interest in iboga for compulsory addiction treatment with psychedelics or, or compulsory mental health treatments with psychedelics because of the recent, it's illegal to be a person without housing.

Joe Moore: Um, and you're gonna get put in treatment. Mm. Like, that's now a thing. So like, I don't know, I don't think forced treatment's good at all. I, and I don't think like, um, like the data is something like 15% effective, maybe less. Right. Right. It's not a good use of money. I don't know. We're, let's, I. You can go there if you want, and riff on that, or if you wanna talk about like, Texas, um, Arizona more generally.

Mary Carreon: Yeah. I mean, I will just say this, I also don't really believe that forced treatment is like good, you [00:55:00] know, data

Joe Moore: says it's bad.

Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah. I also, yeah, I mean, it's like, I don't know. Yeah, that's, it's complex. It's a complex issue. I also don't think it's good, but I also do think that we need a much better framework and foundation for like, if people do want the help, helping them get it.

Mary Carreon: Much more easily and in a way that's going to be beneficial for them. Um, and I don't think that that system or that pathway currently exists as we saw in, uh, with, with, um, measure 1 0 9 and the failure of measure 1 0 9 or, or was it Measure 1 0 10, 1 10, measure one 10 in Oregon.

Joe Moore: But did you see the response yesterday or two days ago?

Joe Moore: No, I didn't. No, I didn't. I'll I'll send it to you later. Okay. So the university did the research, um, Portland State University did the research Yes. And said, Hey, look, there was actually 20 other things that were higher priority. Like that actually influenced this increase in overdoses, not our law.

Mary Carreon: Right.

Mary Carreon: Yes. It was really COVID for Okay. [00:56:00] Like for, yeah. Right. Absolutely. Also, there was not a. Like there was not a framework in place that allowed people to get off the street should they want to, or you know, like, like you just can't really have a, all drugs are legal, or small amounts of drugs are legal without also offering or creating a structure for people to get help.

Mary Carreon: That, that's, you can't do one without the other. Unfortunately. That's just like a, that's faulty from the start. So that's all I'll really say about that. And I don't think that that had fully been implemented yet, even though it was something that wasn't ideal for the, um, for the, for the measure. And I believe it was measure one 10, not measure 1 0 9, to be clear.

Mary Carreon: Measure one 10. Um, yes, but confirmed one 10 confirmed one 10, yes. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, uh, that's, you know, that's kind of what I'll say. That's what I'll, that's where I'll leave that portion. Mm-hmm. You know? Uh, but yeah, forced treatment. I don't know. [00:57:00] We can't be forcing, forcing people to do stuff like that.

Mary Carreon: I don't know. It's not gonna, it's, yeah, it doesn't seem

Joe Moore: very humane.

Mary Carreon: Yeah. No. And it also probably isn't gonna work, so,

Joe Moore: right. Like, if we're being conservative with money, like, I like tote, like to put on Republican boots once in a while and say like, what does this feel like? And then say like, okay, if we're trying to spend money smartly, like where do we actually get where we want to be?

Joe Moore: And then sometimes I put on my cross and I'm like, okay, if I'm trying to be Christian, like where is the most, like, what is the most Christian behavior here in terms of like, what would the, you know, buddy Jesus want to do? And I'm just like, okay, cool. Like, that doesn't seem right. Like those things don't seem to align.

Joe Moore: And when we can find like compassionate and efficient things, like isn't that the path? Um,

Mary Carreon: compassionate and t. Yeah, even, I don't know, I don't know if it looks lefty these days, but Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Yeah. [00:58:00] Yeah. Um, yeah, it's complicated. It's complicated, you know, but going back, kind of, kind of pivoting and going back to what you were talking about in regards to the subtext, some of the subtext of like, you know, where psychedelic medicine is currently getting its most funding.

Mary Carreon: You know, I do believe that that was an undercurrent at psychedelic science. It was the, the iboga conversation. And there's, there's a lot, there's a lot happening with the Iboga conversation and the Iboga conversation and, um, I am really trying to be open to listening to everyone's messages that are currently involved in.

Mary Carreon: That rise of that medicine right now? Um, obviously, yeah, we will see, we'll see how it goes. There's obviously a lot of people who believe that this is not the right move, uh, just because there's been no discussions with, uh, the Wii people of West Africa and, you know, because of [00:59:00] that, like we are not talking to the indigenous people about how we are using their medicine, um, or medicine that does like that comes from, that comes from Africa.

Mary Carreon: Um, also with that, I know that there is a massive just devastating opioid crisis here that we need to do something about and drug crisis that we need to be helping with. And this medicine is something that can really, really, really help. Um, I find it absolutely fascinating that the right is the most interested party in moving all of this forward, like psychedelic medicine forward.

Mary Carreon: And I, I currently have my popcorn and I am watching and I am eating it, and I am going to witness whatever goes down. Um, but I'm, I, I hope that, uh, things are moving in a way that is going to be beneficial for the people and also not completely leave behind the indigenous communities where this medicine comes from.

Joe Moore: [01:00:00] Mm-hmm.

Mary Carreon: We'll see how it goes. Yeah. We'll see how it goes. We'll see how it goes. It

Joe Moore: would be lovely if we can figure it out. Um, I know, and I think, uh, Lucy Walker has a film coming out on Iboga. Mm. I got to see it at Aspen, um, symposium last summer, and it was really good. Mm. So I'm sure it'll be cut different, but it's so good and it tells that story.

Joe Moore: Okay. Um, in a helpful way. I'm gonna, I, yeah. I always say I'm gonna do this. I'm like, if I have space, maybe I'll be able to email her and see if we can screen it in Colorado. But it's like a brilliant film. Yeah. Cool. This whole reciprocity conversation is interesting and challenging. And so challenging being one of the few countries that did not sign onto the Nagoya protocol.

Joe Moore: Absolutely. We're not legally bound, you know, some countries are

Mary Carreon: I know. Yes, yes, yes. So

Joe Moore: we're, you know, how do we do that? How do we do that skillfully? We still haven't done it with, um, first Nations folks around their [01:01:00] substances. Um, I think mushrooms are a little flexible and account of them being global, um, from Africa to Ireland and beyond.

Joe Moore: And, but you know, that's, we still want to give a nod to the people in Mexico for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, it's, I had some fun commentary there that I would love to flesh out someday. Uh, but yeah, it's not for today.

Mary Carreon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, there's, yeah, there's obviously, there's obviously a lot with the conversation of reciprocity here and, um, I know, I, I don't know.

Mary Carreon: I, I, what I do know is that we need to be listening to the indigenous people, not just listening to them second, like secondhand or listening to them, uh, once we have moved something forward, like actually consulting with them as the process goes. And that, you know, the way that both parties move, indigenous folks and, uh, western folks move, uh, are at inherently different paces.

Mary Carreon: And, [01:02:00] um, I just hope, and I wish, and I, I hope, I just hope that, uh, Western what, like the Western party, the western folks who are diving into these medicines. Slow the fuck down and listen and just are able to at least make one right move. Just one, just like you. Like it's, doesn't have to be this, it doesn't have to be that hard.

Mary Carreon: Although the pace of capitalism usually propels, uh, the western folks at, at a much quicker rate than, um, yeah. Then it's like at, at a dangerous rate, I believe through the eyes of indigenous folks. So we'll see how it goes. Michael

Joe Moore: Douglas from Wall Street, like, it was like actually the devil, and like, I think there's like this, this like capitalism will, somebody will do it if I don't, and so, like, you're right.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Speed. So if I choose to try to slow down Yeah. Immediate loss for me. Yeah. As an individual. Yeah. That's how it's perceived. Yes. Let's not go deep down there. Where do you go? Where do, do sit with l [01:03:00] SD and md MA?

Mary Carreon: Where do I sit? Where do you mean? Like,

Joe Moore: should we, should we slow down with LSD and MD MAI

Mary Carreon: don't think so.

Mary Carreon: I don't think so. I don't, I don't think so. I mean, you know. It's different with the molecules. It's different with the molecules, I believe. Um, I think that we actually should be looking more towards, I think that we should be looking more at LSD in terms of the benefits that we could be reaping from that molecule, uh, in a similar way that we have been looking at MDMA.

Mary Carreon: We've been looking at MDMA for a very long time, and I think that we should give LSD the proper, uh, like the proper, uh, scientific analysis. And I don't think that we are because of its, you know, like the way that it's been, uh, projected through history. So, so yeah. Um, that's how I, that's how I feel about that.

Mary Carreon: And I think that, uh, there's a safe way to do these substances and yeah. What about you, Joe?

Joe Moore: I'm gonna vote for two cb, I'm gonna vote for, um, five M-E-O-D-M-T 'cause there's no indigenous use, [01:04:00] um, with the toad. There was YoPo and some other things, but like there wasn't, wasn't like we're doing it today. Um, and then, okay, there's so many other Shogun molecules we could look at and, I don't know, three mmc, four MC.

Joe Moore: We got some, you know, Dr. Z molecules. That guy's extraordinary. Dr.

Mary Carreon: Z.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mary Carreon: Yeah.

Joe Moore: Uh, yeah, he was gonna headline our conference in LA when we were still gonna do that.

Mary Carreon: Oh, oh yeah. Oh yeah. Way back. I, yeah. Oh wow. I remember, I remember when you guys were doing that.

Joe Moore: It was gonna be fun. Yeah. Anyway, um, anything you want to give a shout out to as we kind of wrap up here?

Mary Carreon: I would just like to shout out you, Joe. Thank you for having me on. Thank you for still standing and existing and leading. Psychedelics today into the future. I think that's really commendable and noble of you given how difficult it is to be running a media company, particularly in [01:05:00] psychedelics, but in general in media at large.

Mary Carreon: And, uh, I would like to also say, if you don't follow me on Instagram, you can find me at Mary Prankster. That's Mary, MARY, YY prankster. Uh, you can find me across social media there and also sign up for Double Blinds Newsletter. We send out, we send out, uh, stories. Uh, we have great journalists writing stories for us.

Mary Carreon: Uh, we send out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and yeah, that's pretty much it.

Joe Moore: Mary, carry on. Thank you so much for joining us and I hope we get to do more of this.

Mary Carreon: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Joe.

In this episode, Joe and REMAP Therapeutics Founder, Court Wing, host Lynn Watkins: medically retired USAF JAG & Ops Resource Mgmt Specialist; and C.J. Spotswood, PMHNP: principle psychiatric clinician at REMAP Therapeutics, and author of The Microdosing Guidebook: A Step-by-Step Manual to Improve Your Physical and Mental Health through Psychedelic Medicine.

Watkins tells her story of 20+ years of chronic pain: from Complex Regional Pain Syndrome brought on by a severed nerve to multiple foot surgeries, chest pains, cognitive issues, the inability to move her toes, burning mouth syndrome, and more, which unsurprisingly resulted in depression, anxiety, and being unable to work. Wing and Spotswood talk about their initial assessment, how they figured out how to work with her and her multitude of medications, and the incredible success they saw when combining practiced techniques, neuromodulation, and regular assessments with neuroplastic windows brought on by psilocybin.

They discuss:

• How much preparation was done before introducing psychedelics, and the importance of realizing that they were dealing with PTSD
• How often a history of chronic pain is related to a history of trauma, whether the patient realizes it or not
• Consequences and complications of medications, specifically Clonazepam in Watkins' case
• The cascade of ailments and side effects that can happen from just one injury

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, David interviews Casey Paleos, MD: Vital instructor, researcher, psychiatrist with a private practice offering ketamine infusion therapy and KAP, and co-founder of Nautilus Sanctuary, a non-profit psychedelic research, education, and advocacy organization. 

Paleos talks about how stress creates trauma, and how the symptoms Western medicine tries to silence are actually signals – a quality assurance mechanism sending an alert that something is wrong, and that when symptoms are labeled as 'treatment-resistant,' is it actually a case of one's own inner healing intelligence outsmarting a medication to make sure that that message is delivered?  

He discusses:

• MAPS' recent advisory board ruling, past ethical violations, and how training should be done
• How consent in a therapeutic relationship is an ongoing process of checking in
• How psychedelic-assisted therapy (and maybe all therapy) is simply removing obstacles so one's own inner healing intelligence can do its job
• The importance of a culture (and training) that celebrates all therapeutic modalities as complementary: There's a lot of uniqueness in this world, so we should embrace that  

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, Kyle interviews Peter A. Levine, Ph.D.: developer of Somatic Experiencing®, educator, and author of several best-selling books on trauma.

His most recent book, An Autobiography of Trauma: A Healing Journey, is exactly that: a change from more scholarly writing into an extremely vulnerable telling of his early childhood trauma and how he has healed over the years. He talks about how his unconscious convinced him to write the book, how trauma can move into the body, and how he needed a student to identify how his trauma was affecting him. He believes that we all have wounding, but it's how we carry these wounds and tell our truth that matters. 

He discusses: 

• The need to allow space for both Indigenous traditions and evidence-based Western frameworks
• The power of having even just one distinct moment of feeling cared for and loved
• How Colin Turnbull saw healing differently after living with an African tribe for three years
• Why he suggests 15-20 sober experiences with non-ordinary states for each drug experience
• Why not having a community or empathetic other makes us more vulnerable to trauma

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, Johanna interviews Erika Dyck: author, professor, historian, Vital instructor, and research chair in the History of Health & Social Justice at the University of Saskatchewan.

Dyck talks about the book she co-edited: Women and Psychedelics: Uncovering Invisible Voices, which was released in March as a Chacruna anthology, and collects pieces from several different authors highlighting the untold or lesser known stories from women throughout psychedelic history. Albert Hofmann was the first person to intentionally ingest LSD, but who was the first woman to do so? Who were the women assisting in research or sitting with experiencers in the early days who never got the credit for their contributions? Who were the women supporting some of the biggest psychedelic names in history?

She talks about:

• The contrast in societal attitudes towards psychedelic exploration based on stereotypical gender roles
• Some of her favorite stories from the book, including a woman diagnosed with manic depression becoming one of the first guides in LSD trials
• The use of psychedelics in pregnancy and birthing practices across other cultures
• Traditional gender attributes: Are women more wired to care for others? Is there something about the psychedelic experience that's inherently feminine?
• The importance of moving past the gender binary and implementing more diversity in research – with the challenge of needing to universalize medicine at the same time

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page.

In this episode, Joe interviews Lia Mix, LMFT, CPTR: founder and CEO of Delphi, a consulting firm dedicated to the healthy growth of the psychedelic movement.

After many years of working in community mental health and 15 years in the commercial health insurance industry (where she helped to establish coverage for autism), Mix was one of the first graduates of CIIS's training program, and after a very distinct MDMA-assisted therapy session, she wondered: "How can I be of service?" She's since helped to launch The Board of Psychedelic Medicines and Therapies, the American Psychedelic Practitioners Association, and Enthea, and is working every day toward a more unified and uniform psychedelic space, with healthcare frameworks, official boards and certifications, consumer protections, and a general consensus that this is our responsibility to manage – not some outside regulator's. So how can we, as a scattered psychedelic community, come together?

She discusses:

• Her path to psychedelics and how nobody was talking about how to bring psychedelics into healthcare
• The need for a unified code of ethics for any practitioner of psychedelic therapy
• The FDA, Lykos Therapeutics, and how the recent advisory committee's recommendations on MDMA-assisted psychotherapy were largely based on fear
• How there actually is a lot of financial possibility if we can all agree on what is absolutely essential right now

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page.

In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, David interviews Kaitlin Roberson: Vital graduate and co-founder and CEO of Cacti Therapeutics, a psychedelic biotech company developing novel therapies for chronic pain; and Dr. Michele Cox, DO: current Vital student, veteran, physician, and co-founder of LifeBloom, a brand new company focusing on bringing community and connection into women's healthcare.

They talk about their work: Roberson's research on trauma and chronic pain, and why she feels that working in the pharma industry is a calling; and Cox's framework as an osteopath, the value she's found in touch and connection, and how she explains to clients what to expect when undergoing ketamine treatment.

They discuss:

• Why psychedelics are such useful interventions
• The body's ability to tell us what's wrong, as long we're listening
• The destabilization that can occur after a big experience: If you don't have a good support system, is it really the right time?
• Self-care and our tendency to never feel like we're good enough
• How there is energy in everything and we should all recognize that more

And, as Vital students, they talk about what they hoped to get out of Vital and how it delivered more than expected. If you're just discovering Vital, be sure to check out the website and fill out an application. Secure your spot and take advantage of the Early Bird discount!

For links, head to teh show notes page. 

In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. Amanda Holley: pharmacologist and regulatory consultant in nonclinical drug development, and previously a nonclinical pharmacology/toxicology reviewer at the FDA.

With Lykos Therapeutics working towards FDA approval of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD, ICER (Institute for Clinical and Economic Review) recently published its draft evidence report, concluding that they couldn't endorse this modality. While disappointing to the psychedelic space, this report doesn't determine the FDA's official stance, and also really highlights a lot about how the FDA works, the knowledge gap between consumers and regulators, and how clinical studies should be designed in the future. Holley talks about the FDA's dedication to safety and data, and how, essentially, drug development comes down to a risk/benefit analysis. 

She discusses: 

• Misconceptions about the FDA, especially related to psychedelics
• The path of a substance in early drug development and how breakthrough status works
• The complications with blinding psychedelics, the placebo effect, and how much therapy is a factor
• The contrast between productization and harm reduction: Should we be concerned with creating products, or understanding these substances better?
• How changing one molecule really does create a different drug

and much more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, Kyle interviews two Vital graduates: Alice Dommert: certified breathwork facilitator and co-founder of retreat company, The Infinite Center; and Kara Tremain, ACC: somatic practitioner and growth and development coach.

A huge part of Vital is the experiential aspect of attending a retreat. Students report that being part of a group process, feeling the power of the proper set and setting, taking a journey as both a sitter and experiencer, and separating from the world and connecting with each other has been one of the best parts of the program – even life-changing. With Dommert behind 13 Vital retreats to date, she and Kyle dive into what they've learned in how to run a successful retreat.

They discuss:

• Facilitator humility and how important it is for everyone to be on the same page
• How much additional activities can add to the experience (tea ceremonies, CrossFit, chanting, fireside chats)
• The importance of allowing enough time and space for everything, from personal time with facilitators to possible issues
• Co-creation and openness: What can facilitators and people coming to the retreat build together? How do we create the most meaningful time together?

If you're interested in Vital, applications are now open with an Early Bird discount! And if you want to attend a Vital retreat, we have a few spots left in two: a transpersonal breathwork retreat in Pennsylvania, July 9-14, and a cannabis + breathwork retreat in Agoura Hills, CA in October. Head to the Infinite Center's website for details.

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, Joe interviews Charles Stang: Professor of Early Christian Thought and the Director of the Center for the Study of World Religions at Harvard Divinity School.

The Center was created to gain a better understanding of world religions by bringing scholars from their respective countries to study and live alongside Divinity School students. As students and Stang started to become interested in psychedelics, a zoom series, "Psychedelics and the Future of Religion," began, and the school just hosted their second conference, "Psychedelic Intersections: Cross Cultural Manifestations of the Sacred." Next year's Psychedelics and Spirituality conference will take place February 15, 2025. 

He discusses: 

• Harvard's psychedelic history, and why it's important to not erase the past out of the interest of presumed legitimacy
• How people are consistently having extraordinary experiences with psychedelics, but not always with religion: Are people becoming less (or more) religious?
• The Immortality Key, the Eleusinian mysteries, and psychedelic enthusiasts' need to connect Christianity with psychedelics
• Psychedelics and other mystery religions, like Hermeticism and Mithraism
• Why religion is important to so many people, and how it helps us understand the "more-than-human" 

and much more.

For links, head to the show notes page.

In this episode – the first in the 2024 series of Vital Psychedelic Conversations – David interviews Pierre Bouchard, LPC: Vital instructor and lead trainer for the Congregation for Sacred Practices; and Kara Tremain, ACC: recent Vital graduate-turned-instructor, somatic practitioner, and growth and development coach. 

In this series, we pair up a Vital instructor with a current or previous student as a way of showcasing different (and aligned) perspectives on what they feel is most vital for the psychedelic space to be discussing, while also highlighting their experiences with Vital, our 12-month training program. The next cohort begins September 17 and we're accepting applications now.  

As they are both are passionate about somatic work, they discuss: 

• The power of somatics in showing people how much our bodies and nervous systems matter, and how our thoughts are often not the main driver
• How ketamine or MDMA can help with somatic work
• How somatic sound can be, through music for journeys, sound bowls, or tuning forks: Can just the right frequency create magic?
• How somatic work is not solely about resolving trauma, but also about learning to conduct energy and use one's body as a tuning apparatus

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

Joe and Kyle celebrate Vital Cohort 4 and reflect on why Vital is more than a 12-month psychedelic-informed training—it's a living community (alumni webinars, discussion groups, cross-cohort meetups). Many grads aren't rushing to facilitate; they're choosing integration, harm reduction, education, and local community building. Next cohort dates are TBD —applications and email sign-ups are open.

Breathwork in Breckenridge (this weekend)
Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork returns Fri–Sun. The last workshop reinforced how powerful the format is for bonding, somatic processing, and ongoing peer support.

Music & tech: fail-safe playbook

• Keep redundant sources: primary laptop with WAV/FLAC (VLC/Mixxx), secondary device/phone, and a small Bluetooth speaker as last resort.
• Redundant mixers/interfaces, tested cables, simple signal flow.
• Pre-flight the exact rig; monitor for digital artifacts/grounding noise.
• Use offline playlists + Do Not Disturb (actually test it).

Why community matters now
With AI accelerating "dead-internet" dynamics, trusted human networks—book clubs, film clubs, local meetups—are essential. Skills for the moment: digital security hygiene and discernment (evaluating claims, sources, and inner signals).

News & trends

• Alaska: statewide psilocybin initiative begins signature gathering.
• New Mexico: momentum toward group psilocybin care (cost-cutting models; ~2-year horizon).
• TBI & psychedelics: expanding research interest (ibogaine/5-MeO imaging work; anti-inflammatory angles).
• Colorado & iboga: advisory board backs therapeutic use and encourages Nagoya Protocol reciprocity; federal import/legal nuances remain.

Harm-reduction notes
Beware gas-station/head-shop "psychedelic" edibles labeled as "proprietary blends." Ask for COAs and clear ingredients; understand test-kit limits (chocolates are tricky). For injections (even "legal" clinics), ask about sterile technique, water, dosing, and sourcing.

Get involved

• Navigators: join our membership for exclusive livestreams, book/film clubs, courses, and meetups.
• Vital: apply or join the interest list—dates announced soon.

In this episode, Kyle interviews Alex Belser, Ph.D. and Bill Brennan, Ph.D.: psychologists, psychedelic researchers, authors, and co-creators of the EMBARK model, a framework for psychedelic therapy. 

When Belser and Brennan worked together at Cybin, they canvassed the field of psychedelic research and saw very little reporting (if any) of the manuals researchers were using, so they created the EMBARK model as a "big tent" framework – a way to understand what patients were going through from the perspective of six different clinical domains, where the clinician can go deeper into whichever domain is needed based on their specific skill sets. The EMBARK model has been used in two randomized controlled trials to date, and its corresponding book, EMBARK Psychedelic Therapy for Depression: A New Approach for the Whole Person (co-authored by Belser and Brennan), was released in April. 

They discuss: 

• The six domains and four ethical care cornerstones that make up EMBARK, as well as the many proposed change mechanisms that come into play
• Concerns over facilitators stepping aside and letting the medicine do the work: How much of a factor is someone's presence in the room?
• How much smaller, "little t" traumas can affect people – trauma doesn't always come from a single hallmark event
• The need for facilitators to be trained well (and trauma-informed), as it's nearly impossible to tell when an adverse outcome is coming

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page.

In this episode, special guest host Court Wing interviews Monica Verduzco-Gutierrez, MD: professor and chair of rehabilitation medicine at UT Health San Antonio; Joel Castellanos, MD: co-founder and associate medical director of the Center for Psychedelic Research at UC San Diego; and MaryAnn Welke Lesage: a long COVID survivor who reports experiencing drastic improvement in symptoms after MDMA and psilocybin therapy.

As the world slowly recovers from COVID, many people are seeing continued or new symptoms, and while much is still not understood, these symptoms are being categorized as long COVID: essentially a persistent viral inflammation causing brain fog, headaches, depression, and other hard-to-diagnose symptoms. With estimations of as many as 18% of people in the U.S. experiencing this at one point and 6.8% currently dealing with it, could psychedelics – which can decrease inflammation and reset neural networks – help alleviate these symptoms? 

They discuss: 

• How long COVID fits into what we already know about psychedelics, pain, and inflammatory medicine
• Why MDMA or psilocybin therapy, specifically, can help
• The importance of physical medicine and rehabilitation (PM&R) and the myriad of tools these physicians have learned to work with
• Why anecdotal evidence matters towards future research

and more! 

For more info, read Lesage's article, "How Psychedelics Became Key to My Long COVID Recovery," as well as the official paper: "Long-COVID symptoms improved after MDMA and psilocybin therapy: A case report."

For more links, head to the show notes page.

In this episode, Joe interviews Sean Lawlor: writer and therapist specializing in ketamine-assisted therapy at Reflective Healing in Fort Collins, CO.

His first book, Psychedelic Revival: Toward a New Paradigm of Healing, will be released on June 4. Written as somewhat of a primer for psychedelics and psychedelic therapy, he talks about how he decided to write the book, how Michael Pollan was an influence, and the importance of making psychedelic literature not boring: Research and statistics are important, but how does one relate to data points when trying to understand something so rich and weird?

He discusses:

• Studying philosophy, from Nietzsche and Freud to Jung and William James
• When a clinical frame or license is important (but can you always trust a license?)
• How context and interwoven culture matter when differentiating between plant medicines and man-made psychedelics
• Brian Muraresku's The Immortality Key and research into ancient Greeks using psychedelics: Why do we place so much importance on proving this?
• The importance of community, rituals, shared meanings, mythology, and rites of passage
  and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, Joe interviews Elliot Marseille, DrPH, MPP: founding director of UC Berkeley's Collaborative for the Economics of Psychedelics (CEP), a network of health economists and researchers analyzing the economics behind emerging psychedelic-assisted therapies.

In the early days of drug research, efficacy was the leading factor in decision making, but as time has gone on, people are looking much more into the economics of everything: If a government is granted X amount of money, what should they spend it on that will be the most beneficial to the most people? How do you create models for future research and regulations based on the data we have now? Can there be a time in the near future when someone sits before Congress and says, "This is the exact societal cost of not making psychedelic therapy accessible"?

He discusses:

• His early work with the SEVA Foundation, studying at the economics behind HIV/AIDS treatments in developing countries
• His experiences working with Ram Dass and having a big psychedelic journey with Leo Zeff
• His issues with the recent ICER (Institute for Clinical and Economic Review) report which said they couldn't endorse MDMA-assisted psychotherapy
• Why we need more studies tracking people for long periods after psychedelic therapy, specifically analyzing their healthcare utilization over time

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, Joe interviews two members of The Daschle Group: Founder and CEO, Senator Tom Daschle; and Public Policy Advisor, Charlie Panfil.

As Senator Daschle served in the House of Representatives for eight years (starting in 1978) and the Senate for 21, he was deep in the War on Drugs at its peak, and thankfully, as seen with so many of his constituents in recent years, the data and personal stories of so many healed people has broken through the propaganda and made him a strong advocate for psychedelic-assisted therapy. While minds are changing and progress is happening before our eyes (the majority of substances the FDA is currently researching for psychiatric indications contain some form of psychedelic ingredient), government bureaucracy, a severe lack of communication between the FDA and DEA, and decades of lies are still massive roadblocks. How do we address all of this while advancing research?

They discuss:

• The need to develop a partnership between the public and private sectors, mostly for the cost of treatments
• The DEA's place in all of this: If they're essentially a law enforcement agency, why are they involved in the safety and efficacy of medical treatments?
• The STATES Act, the Breakthrough Therapies Act, and how they can affect research
• Why we need to move past relying on opioids, and instead, embrace a science-based drug policy

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, Kyle interviews Simon Yugler: psychedelic-assisted therapist, educator, and author of the book, Psychedelics & the Soul: A Mythic Guide to Psychedelic Healing, Depth Psychology, and Cultural Repair, which comes out this fall.

He digs into depth psychology and why it's a beneficial framework for navigating non-ordinary experiences – a practice he believes will be the next focus in psychedelic education and understanding, alongside more analysis into the archetypes and myths that reside within (and all around) us. In an age of hyper-individualism and isolation, the stories and archetypal energies we share (which can be brought more to the forefront with psychedelics) can be incredibly healing and connecting.

He discusses:

• The challenges of reintegrating to reality after the classic Hero's Journey, and how some people don't want to
• The time he ate 7 grams of strong mushrooms and nothing happened, confirming to him the omnipresence of trickster energies
• Jung's theory on individuation, and how true individuation actually creates deeper engagement with the world
• How myths offer windows into deeper realms, and a breakdown of his Mythopoetic Integration Method
• How psychedelics show us our souls, and how so much of the chaos in the world can be related to a denial of the soul

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, David interviews Sami Awad: Palestinian peace and nonviolent activist and founder of Holy Land Trust in Bethlehem; and Leor Roseman, Ph.D.: Israeli neuroscientist, researcher, and senior lecturer at the University of Exeter.  

They talk about Roseman's 2021 paper, "Relational Processes in Ayahuasca Groups of Palestinians and Israelis," which looked at what happened when people with fiercely different opinions moved beyond fear, anger, and othering, and sat together in a safe container and drank ayahuasca with the purpose of healing collective trauma. When the focus of the participants moved toward understanding each other, Roseman and Awad saw a unity that gave them a lot of hope, leading to the creation of their nonprofit, RIPPLES, which is focused on using psychedelics for peacebuilding – first in the Middle East, and hopefully soon, everywhere. As Awad says, "If it can happen here, it can happen almost anywhere."

They discuss: 

• The efficacy of psychedelics as a tool for nonviolent activism, building peace, and recognizing – and healing – collective trauma
• The balance between the idealistic and the practical, or 'the irony of harmony' – if you focus too much on the connectivity of psychedelics, do you actually exclude voices?
• The concept of "my liberation depends on your healing and your liberation depends on mine"
• The challenge in doing something with the hope and enthusiasm that comes after a powerful experience: How do you make sure that wave of hope continues rippling through choppy waters? 

Click here to head to the show notes page.

In this episode, Joe interviews two members of the Heroic Hearts Project team: Director of Donor Development and founder of The Hope Project, Allison Wilson; and Director of Research and founder of Hystelica, Dr. Grace Blest-Hopley.

They discuss how The Hope Project – a nonprofit that supports spouses of veterans, Gold Star Wives, and female veterans with scholarships to psychedelic healing retreats, integration, community, etc. – merged with Heroic Hearts Project, and why this is such a necessary part of the veteran healing story: How does a family hold space for a vet returning to a suddenly alien civilian life (especially after a psychedelic journey)? How does a spouse deal with their own trauma from constant worry and isolation? Wilson and Blest-Hopley are learning that, for many spouses, having their own experience (and with other spouses) has been incredibly beneficial.

They talk about:

• The concept of secondary PTSD (often referred to as 'compassion fatigue') and the many ways it can manifest
• How Heroic Hearts is working with Imperial College London to use veteran retreats as real-world observational research
• The importance of involving family in the healing process, and how positive outcomes can trickle down to children
• The need for more research into how PTSD and the effects of psychedelics are different in women based on their unique physiology (as most studies have focused on men)

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, Joe and Kyle interview William Richards, STM, Ph.D.: senior advisor at Sunstone Therapies, psychologist at the Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, contributor to Vital, and author of Sacred Knowledge: Psychedelics & Religious Experiences.

He talks about the first time he experienced psilocybin in a research study in 1963, his early studies on the psychology of religion, working with Abraham Maslow, how he became one of the early psychedelic therapists, and what it was like for all of that to disappear when Nixon came into office and shut everything down. He discusses his move into psychedelics and end-of-life care after seeing patients' fear of death completely disappear, and contemplates whether psychedelics could help people prepare for death – how would we live if we no longer feared death?

He also discusses:

• How the integration of psychedelics into palliative care should be a huge step in cultural acceptance
• How psychedelics could be used for education and boosting creativity, problem solving, and even new perspectives on history and classic works
• The study of comparative religion and the potential for psychedelics to find the connections and commonality between seemingly disparate religions
• The impact of psychedelic experiences on the perception of the sacred
• How fascinating it is that the same substance, dose, and set and setting can create such incredibly different experiences

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, Joe interviews a psytrance musician who has created what may be the world's first modular album for psychedelic exploration under his project, Held By Sound. 

He talks about his background in the rave and festival scene, the moment he realized he wanted to make music, and the realization that he could create soundscapes specifically for journeys into non-ordinary states. And he digs into the 'choose your own adventure' framework of the free album: how he actually recorded 3 different albums and figured out how to transition into different moods based on which direction the listener wants to go – from more still to more expansive, to darker or more bittersweet. He has also created music for DMT trials in the UK, and talks a lot about the potential in extended-state DMT experiences.

He also discusses: 

• How he came up with the flow of the album related to phases of the trip
• How much of a catalyst and safe container music can be, with or without a complimentary substance
• How psychedelics in a fun, festival experience with lots of laughter can be extremely beneficial – you don't need to do them the 'correct' way
• Graham Hancock, Donald Hoffman, and the concept of consciousness as the building block of all reality
• Psytrance, classical music, traditional Bwiti music, Lady Gaga, and what music he feels is best for exploration 

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

Joe Moore sits down with Greg Shanken (Colorado Psychedelic Society, Collaborence Psychedelic Business Association; founder, Higher Frequency Network) for a wide-ranging conversation about building community infrastructure, navigating censorship, and creating accessible, ethical pathways into psychedelic healing. Greg shares his personal arc from lifelong depression to ayahuasca, ketamine, and Bufo; why he launched a vetted affiliate/partner network for our space; and how Oregon–Colorado collaboration can widen access while honoring reciprocity and conservation.

Key themes

• Collaborence: a two-day CO/OR event (online + in-person) connecting facilitators, professionals, and the public with pay-what-you-can access options.
• Access & affordability: how to widen entry points (microdosing, breathwork, scholarships/funds) within and beyond regulated service/healing centers.
• Censorship & platform risk: why repeated Meta account shutdowns pushed Greg to build community-based distribution outside big ad networks.
• Personal journey: depression, SSRIs/SNRIs/ADHD meds → ayahuasca (two-night initiation), IM ketamine, and later Bufo/5-MeO-DMT.
• Ethics & ecology: "blood toad," conservation, and the case for synthetic 5-MeO-DMT over toad-sourced material; parallels with peyote/mescaline carve-outs.
• Leadership & culture: bringing heart-centered leadership, breathwork, and microdosing into companies; moving from transactional to mutual-aid ecosystems.
• Regulated vs. underground: costs, insurance realities, sliding-scale models, and the role each plays in a healthy landscape.

In this episode, Joe and special guest, Court Wing, interview Tommy Aceto: former Navy Seal and trauma medic, NCAA athlete, Michigan State Champion Wrestler, and now, psychedelic advocate and ambassador for the Veteran Mental Health Leadership Coalition.

He discusses his journey from childhood to wanting to become a SEAL, and the toll that military life and its programming can take on a person: how a life built on high levels of endurance, deprivation, and constantly surviving in a fight-or-flight mindset often manifests in Operator Syndrome, chronic pain, depression, and addiction. Veterans are seeing the potential of psychedelics to rewire their brains and allow them to process pain differently, by allowing them to feel emotions they were trained to turn off: "You've got to feel to heal."

Aceto discusses:

• The affirmation and approval many who join the military seek, and how that often translates into needing to stay at certain levels of risk to truly feel alive
• The similarities between soldiers and professional athletes and high performers
• Dealing with chronic pain, and how forcing movement is often the best tactic
• The Controlled Substances Act and how opioids became a business
• Why the most important thing vets can do today is to tell their healing stories

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, Kyle and Johanna catch up, interviewing each other about psychedelic education and what they've learned, the biggest challenges, and what advice they would give to anyone looking to get involved in the psychedelic field.

They discuss:

• How sometimes it's not about the substance: If you want to be a psychedelic therapist, do you see yourself doing therapy without the psychedelics?
• How no part of education is exempt, and becoming truly psychedelically-competent can involve studying psychology, neuroscience, somatics, religion, history, etc.
• How people's experiences are evidence – it doesn't have to come from a research study to be valid
• The importance of figuring out what your gifts are and how you could best contribute to progress, and then finding the job that matches it

and more!

The next round of our year-long training program, Vital, begins in September, but for those who feel that that may be too much of a commitment, our most popular course – the 9-week Navigating Psychedelics for Clinicians and Wellness Practitioners, LIVE – begins on May 8. Head to the Psychedelic Education Center for more details!

Click here to head to the show notes page.

In this episode, Joe interviews Philip Wolf: writer, member of Rolling Stone's Culture Council, founder of Cultivating Spirits (the first company in the U.S. to offer legal culinary cannabis experiences), and founder of CashoM, an education company offering a certificate in cannabis stewardship.

He discusses his recent Rolling Stone article about the need to divorce ourselves from the colonial mindset that pervades the psychedelic movement, and he talks about the difficult conversation that came about when he asked a very critical group of psychedelic leaders how they felt about the article, and how it taught him just how powerful having these difficult conversations can be. 

He also discusses: 

• The importance of asking questions and not making assumptions
• Why we may need to abandon the "no justice, no peace" attitude if we ever want to move forward
• The idea that instead of endlessly battling the establishment, maybe it makes more sense to change our consumer mindset and allow capitalism to do its thing
• The importance of reaching out to local Indigenous tribes and allocating resources to go to them, not make them come to you
• The challenge of merging spirituality and science, especially for a regulatory model focused on profit

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, Joe and Kyle interview Lenny Gibson, Ph.D.: philosopher, Grof-certified Holotropic Breathwork® facilitator, 20-year professor of transpersonal psychology at Burlington College, and the reason Joe and Kyle met many years ago.

He talks about his early LSD experiences and how his interest in the philosophy of Plato and Alfred North Whitehead provided a framework and language for understanding a new mystical world where time and space were abstractions. He believes that while culture sees the benefits of psychedelics in economic terms, the biggest takeaway from non-ordinary states is learning that value is the essence of everything. And as this is being released on Bicycle Day, he discusses Albert Hofmann's discovery and whether or not it's fair to say that Hofmann intentionally had the experience he did on that fateful day.

He also discusses:

• The end of Cartesian thinking and the need for a new understanding of reality that incorporates the insights of quantum mechanics
• How philosophy has been taught as an intellectual endeavor, and how we need to embrace the practical and conceptual side of life
• John Dewey and quantitative thinking, William James and pragmatism, and was Aristotle a Platonist?
• The novelty of the creation of LSD, and how it gave us a path to a mystical experience that wasn't culturally bound

and more!

For links, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, Joe interviews Joey Lichter, Ph.D.: professor in the Chemistry & Biochemistry department at Miami's Florida International University, and one of the few professors in the U.S. teaching a course about psychedelics at the collegiate level.

He talks about his path towards the course, the challenge of creating a curriculum that covers everything in a few months, and the importance of teaching young minds about psychedelics the right away; shifting drug education from the "Just say no!" D.A.R.E. model to a more balanced, honest, and evidence-based approach. He aims for his students to think critically, ignore the hype, and see all possible angles with a fairly simple approach: Present the full story.

He discusses:

• The importance of teaching history, from Stan Grof to MKUltra
• The work of David Nichols, David Nutt's drug harm scale, and the greatest lesson William Leonard Pickard took from LSD
• The representation of Spravato as a new drug, and his concerns with the over-medicalization of psychedelics
• Teaching about the complexities of Timothy Leary: Was he a positive or negative force?
• Decriminalization, legalization, and how he gets students to think about drug policy

and more!

For links and more, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, Joe interviews Devon Phillips: community & partnerships officer for the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS).

Phillips works on strategies to tackle the questions: How do we responsibly mainstream psychedelics? And how do we get culture engaged? He's focusing on being the bridge to psychedelics outside of research, facilitating workshops and psychedelic coming-out stories at music festivals and conferences. He talks about harm reduction and drug checking at festivals, the concept of training big names to become trustworthy resources, the differences found in a hop hop crowd compared to EDM, and the power in using psychedelics for pleasure and celebration – not just healing and growth. 

He also discusses: 

• MAPS' involvement with the NFL for their 'My Cause, My Cleats' campaign, and how the San Francisco 49ers' Jon Feliciano is bringing awareness to psychedelic healing
• Details about MAPS' first responders training, fiscal sponsorship program, international therapist education program, and upcoming membership program (launching in June)
• The success of MAPS' Psychedelic Science and his hopes for the 2025 edition, taking place June 16 - 20 at the Denver Convention Center
• Dr. Carl Hart, drug exceptionalism, and the importance of creating safe containers and inclusive drug policy 

and more!

For links and more, head to the show notes page.

In this episode, Joe interviews Keeper Trout: archivist, author, photographer, co-founder of the Cactus Conservation Institute, and creator of Trout's Notes, a website compiling personal research and collected data to help ethnobotanical researchers.

From an interest in cactus taxonomy, Sasha Shulgin urged Trout to go through his files, resulting in a friendship, and eventually, an 8-year project of digitizing all of these files into the ever-evolving Shulgin Archive.

Trout discusses:

• His relationship with Sasha and The Shulgin Farm project, which aims to make the farm a community resource for therapy, research, events, and more
• The messiness of cactus taxonomy, and how he believes we're nearing the end of being able to properly identify cacti
• The perception of LSD as unnatural and why the natural vs. synthetic argument is largely political
• Why repealing the Controlled Substances Act is the path we should take over decriminalization or legalization

and more!

For links and more, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, Alexa interviews April Pride: creative entrepreneur, veteran of the cannabis space, and now, founder of SetSet, an educational platform and podcast (picking up where The High Guide left off) for women curious about psychedelics.

With Alexa about to embark on the journey of motherhood, she asks many of the questions parents working with psychedelics have to consider: How do you overcome the stigmas of being a psychedelic parent? How do you talk to your children about drugs? How do you know if a substance is ok to use during pregnancy?

Pride discusses:

• Being dubbed "the weed mom" and why she embraced the nickname
• Parenting children around drug use and how parents lose credibility when they lie (the kids are going to know)
• The need for more research into how substances interact with women's cycles and changing hormones
• Knowing when to trust your doctor and how more conversations lead to more knowledgeable doctors
• Microdosing psilocybin and the developing SetSet protocol

and more!

For links and more, head to the show notes page. 

In this episode, Joe interviews Paul F. Daley, Ph.D., who worked with Sasha Shulgin in his lab for the last seven years of his life, helping him finish (and co-authoring) "The Shulgin Index, Volume One: Psychedelic Phenethylamines and Related Compounds."

He is now the co-founder, Chief Science Officer, and Director of Analytical Science at the Alexander Shulgin Research Institute (ASRI), focusing on the discovery and development of novel psychedelic compounds. While Sasha was passionate about self-experimentation, the Institute is aiming for the next step for these drugs: FDA approval.  

He discusses: 

• Meeting Sasha at the 2nd international conference on hallucinogenic mushrooms in Washington D.C.
• Bonding with Sasha while reviewing the autopsy of researcher Robert van den Bosch for possible foul play
• The two compounds ASRI is closest to being able to test in clinical trials
• The 5-HT2B receptor, risk of valvular disease, and why we will likely be hearing more about this going forward
• How AI and new technology can lead to better safety science  

and more!

Click here to head to the show notes page.

In this episode, David interviews Osiris González Romero: philosopher and Postdoctoral researcher on cognitive freedom and psychedelic humanities at the University of Saskatchewan.

Romero believes that our weakest point of research is our knowledge of Indigenous languages, and is focused on highlighting different cultural uses of psychedelics to better inform future drug policy. He's currently studying more than 100 documents (including one over 400 years old) to establish an honest understanding of why peyote was ever banned.

He discusses:

• Mesoamerican psychedelics and their relevance to cognitive liberty and decolonization
• How the War on Drugs is our main colonial legacy
• The concepts of an ontological turn and ontological pluralism
• The neocolonial, biomedical, and spiritual paradoxes found inside the 'psychedelic renaissance'
• How imagination is often viewed through a lens of illusion rather than problem solving or creativity

and more!

Click here to head to the show notes page. 

In this episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore sits down with Dr. Cat Meyer, licensed psychotherapist, sex therapist, and host of Sex, Love, Psychedelics. Together, they explore the deep intersections of sexuality, trauma healing, psychedelics, and the role of play in human connection.

Dr. Meyer shares her journey from growing up in rural Missouri and navigating early trauma to becoming a leading voice in sex therapy and psychedelic integration. She opens up about her personal healing path, her work with ketamine-assisted therapy, and how tantra, BDSM, and art have shaped her approach to erotic wellness.

Topics Covered

• Defining the Erotic: Beyond sex, eroticism as vibrancy, life force, and connection to the senses.
• Personal Story: Dr. Meyer's early struggles, academic path in marriage and family therapy, and her discovery of tantra and BDSM as transformative practices.
• Psychedelics and Healing: Her first experiences with MDMA-assisted therapy, ketamine retreats for women, and how these tools can reconnect people with pleasure and embodiment.
• The Power of Play: Why play is essential for healing, relationships, and cultural transformation—ranging from improv and art to Burning Man experiments.
• Navigating Power Dynamics: How erotic transference, facilitation, and unconscious needs can shape therapy, sex, and psychedelic work—and why self-awareness is crucial.
• Feral Mysticism: Rewilding the body, reclaiming personal authority, and embracing vibrancy outside of cultural repression.
• Pleasure and Illness: How Dr. Meyer works with clients facing chronic pain, fatigue, or illness to maintain erotic connection through presence and small practices.

Key Quotes

• "Eroticism is the connection to vibrancy, to life—it's how we engage with the world through pleasure."
• "Feeling is power. A discerning human who can feel is a powerful human."
• "Psychedelics help us come back into right relationship with our body and with pleasure."
• "Play gives us the freedom to experiment, to try, to be vulnerable, and to learn without attaching our worth to the outcome."

 

In this episode, Joe interviews Maria Mangini, Ph.D., FNP: researcher, educator, and midwife who has worked closely with many psychedelic innovators and was part of the original social network at Shulgin Farm – where this episode was recorded. She traces her journey from the influence of pioneers like the Wassons, Shulgins, and Grofs, and historic places like Esalen and Millbrook.

She discusses:

• Her early experiences with the Grofs at Esalen and how she met the Shulgins
• Gregory Bateson guiding her to become a midwife
• The similarities between midwifery and psychedelic facilitation
• The unsung work of Denis Berry in saving the Timothy Leary archives
• How the working relationship of the Shulgins is a perfect example of the coequality society should strive for

and more!

Click here to head to the show notes page.

In this episode, released on Ann Shulgin's birthday, Joe interviews Wendy Tucker: daughter of Ann and stepdaughter to Alexander "Sasha" Shulgin.

Recorded in Sasha's old office, she recounts her formative years, giving an insider's look into her Mother's openness about psychedelics, working with Sasha in the lab, how the Shulgins made a perfect team, and watching a close-knit circle of self-experimenters start to form at Shulgin Farm – and keep coming back over the years.

She talks about the energy infused into the property from the decades of research and gatherings, and how she is trying to preserve it – not just to capture its history and the pioneering research that happened there, but as a beacon for future generations. She imagines weddings, conferences, other communal gatherings, and more. Imagine taking a chemistry course in Sasha Shulgin's lab?

To learn more about the project and to donate, head to Shulginfarm.org.

Click here to head to the show notes page and watch the video.

In this episode, Joe interviews Juan Pablo Cappello: co-founder and former CEO of Nue Life Health, whose assets were subsequently acquired by Beckley Waves.

Cappello digs into his recent article which has been making waves across the psychedelic community: "Profit Over Patients? A Critical Look at At-Home Ketamine Therapy." He created Nue Life with the goal of helping a million people address the root cause of their anxiety, and while the company was successful, he began to see a problematic trend: that using ketamine while providing services of a mental health company is very expensive and resource-consuming, and as companies saw a large percentage of clients requiring maintenance doses, the most profitable business model became essentially slinging ketamine to patients without providing any real integration or aftercare. Are these companies promising healing but really only guaranteeing recurring revenue?

He talks about:

• How this emerging model makes it harder for ethical practitioners to be able to provide their services
• The tools they built at Nue Life for long-term benefit, and why these should be the main focus – not repeated ketamine
• Matthew Perry's death and how the media was quick to place the blame on ketamine
• The need for companies and communities to come to gather and create ethical industry standards for the at-home ketamine model
• How cannabis was almost decriminalized under the Carter administration

and more!

Click here to head to the show notes page.