Poets & Thinkers – Détails, épisodes et analyse

Can designing a movement get the smartest people to work on the biggest problems instead of disappearing into what one author calls “the Bermuda Triangle of talent”: consulting, tech, and banking?

In this episode, Ben sits down with Harald Dunnink, designer, serial co-founder, and advocate for moral ambition. Harald founded Momkai, a Dutch design agency “for people who give a damn,” co-founded De Correspondent (a member-funded journalism platform on a mission for “unbreaking news”), and most recently launched the School for Moral Ambition with bestselling author Rutger Bregman.

Harald’s design philosophy centers, as he describes, on “making doing good look as good as possible” – using the same branding and marketing tools that sell sneakers and energy drinks to instead sell noble causes. He challenges the extractive mindset of traditional business with what he calls “memberful design” – designing not for users to be hooked, but for members to belong. Through his work he tries to combine the idealism of an activist with the ambition of an entrepreneur.

This is a conversation about the difference between being radically hopeful and being called naive. About the role privilege plays in being able to choose morally ambitious work, and how to redefine success when everyone around you follows the same maximalist capitalistic playbook.

Resources & References

Momkai: https://momkai.com/ 

School for Moral Ambition: https://schoolformoralambition.org/ 

Small Fry by Lisa Brennan-Jobs 

Humankind by Rutger Bregman 

Moral Ambition by Rutger Bregman 

The Good-Enough Life by Avram Alpert 

Connect with Harald Dunnink

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/haralddunnink/

Bio:

Harald is a designer and serial co-founder who describes his philosophy as “cultivating calm and designing for belonging”. He founded Momkai, a Dutch design agency, working with international clients from Nike to Red Bull before pivoting to use those branding tools for social good. Harald also co-founded The Correspondent, a member-funded journalism platform for as he says “unbreaking news,” which also became a publishing house with nearly 30 bestselling books. Most recently, he co-founded the School for Moral Ambition with bestselling author Rutger Bregman, focusing on the biggest, most neglected, yet fixable problems.

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What if the best business advice ever came from a five-year-old: “I think you should add some googly eyes and rainbow colors!”

In this episode, Ben sits down with Andy Allen, co-founder of Not Boring Software, 2 times Apple Design Award winner, and former co-founder of the groundbreaking startup FiftyThree – makers of the Paper app and Pencil stylus. 

Andy challenges the dominant narrative of software design: While the industry has matured and systematized around efficiency and automation over the last 30+ years, he argues we've lost the cultural impact, the playfulness, the human expression that makes software worth making. As he draws parallels to fashion and industrial design, Andy reveals why software designers have no heroes to look up to – only billionaires – and why that's a problem. His students at the University of Washington taught him to remember why he became a designer in the first place: not to optimize conversion funnels, but to make things that matter.

This is a conversation about slowing down and embracing play.

Resources & References

For The Culture (Andy’s manifesto): https://notbor.ing/words/for-the-culture

Not Boring: https://notbor.ing/

FiftyThree launches Pencil: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/19/fiftythree-paper-pencil-ipad-stylus

Connect with Andy Allen

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewsallen/

Bio:

Andy Allen is the Alaskan-born, founder of !Boring Software Ltd creating fun software for life's boring routines (2x Apple Design Awards). Co-Founder of FiftyThree and the popular drawing app, Paper (acquired). Adjunct Professor of Software Design at the University of Washington's School of Art.

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Humans are multisensory beings. What if the tiny sounds you hear from your devices every day are literally vibrating through your body, changing your nervous system, and collectively creating decades of audio pollution? And what do we do about it in an age where generative AI is likely going to add even more noise? 

In this fascinating episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the profound intersection of sound, technology, and human experience with Matthew Bennett, a composer, sound artist, and sensory designer who led sound design at Microsoft for 12 years. From his home studio in Seattle, Matthew reveals how he shaped the sonic experience of billions of people worldwide while pioneering a new paradigm for technology sound design.

Matthew takes us on a journey through the science of sound as sensory experience – not just something we hear, but a form of touch that vibrates our entire body and changes our physiology. He shares mind-blowing insights about how Microsoft’s tiny notification sounds, when multiplied across hundreds of millions of users, created decades of sound pollution daily – and how his team cut 10 years off that global audio footprint by shortening sounds by just one second. Through the lens of neuroaesthetics and multisensory design, Matthew illustrates why our digital experiences are always multisensory whether we intend them to be or not.

Throughout our conversation, Matthew challenges the current AI music generation hype, revealing how these tools expose the formulaic nature of popular music while lacking the human intention and authenticity that gives art its soul. He advocates for a “do no harm” approach to sound design, emphasizing the importance of designing silence and understanding that unexpected sounds can hijack our brains and trigger fight-or-flight responses. His vision for Musical Sensory Environments and precision therapies offers a glimpse into how sound can heal rather than harm.

In this discussion, we explore:

• Why sound is actually a special form of touch that vibrates through your entire body
• How tiny notification sounds create decades of global audio pollution daily
• The ethics of multisensory design and the responsibility that comes with scale
• Why AI-generated music reveals the formulaic nature of popular genres
• How neuroesthetics can become essential literacy for designers and leaders
• The difference between human intention and statistical pattern matching in creativity

This episode is an invitation to understand sound as a powerful force that shapes our digital ecosystems, our physical well-being, and our human connections – and to approach the creation of sensory experiences with the care and intention they deserve.

Resources Mentioned

• Jaron Lanier’ work
• World Health Organization (WHO) research on noise pollution as global health crisis
• Neuroaesthetics research and fMRI studies on brain responses to sound
• Musical Sensory Environments – Matthew’s pioneering approach to immersive audio

Connect with Matthew Bennett:

Website: https://soundandsensory.com/

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-bennett-design/

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What if venture capital is finally getting the reset it desperately needed? And what does that mean for the qualities and skills required for future founders, startup leaders, and even investors? In this episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the future of venture capital and startup building with Pascal Unger, managing partner at pre-seed VC firm focal. From his base in Miami, Pascal brings a unique perspective shaped by his Swiss roots and global experiences spanning coding, consulting at BCG, and finance before diving into the venture world.

Pascal takes us on a journey through the evolution of software – from systems of record in the 1980s to systems of engagement in the 2000s, and now to systems of intelligence that can automate entire workflows rather than just optimize them. He reveals why this shift is creating what many VCs believe to be the largest market opportunity in history, as software can now target not just software budgets but headcount budgets and enable companies to do exponentially more with existing resources. 

Through compelling examples of how his portfolio companies are building data moats and reducing friction to adoption, Pascal illustrates what it takes to win in this new paradigm. However, this platform shift also challenges the VC model to its core because small teams can now go further and faster than ever, start generating revenue early, without requiring to raise a lot of venture capital.

Pascal challenges conventional wisdom about startup building, arguing that distribution and go-to-market strategy are now more critical than ever before. He shares his framework for assessing founders across six key dimensions – from learning speed to moral compass. His insights on the “liftoff round” concept and the compression of funding cycles offer a glimpse into how venture capital itself is being reimagined for the AI era.

In our discussion, we explore:

• Why software is evolving from optimizing workflows to automating entire outcomes
• How the trust barrier affects AI adoption and why humans still need to stay in the loop
• Why data moats and distribution strategies are more crucial than ever for startups
• The six dimensions investors should use to assess founders in an AI-first world
• How building has become more efficient while the bar for initial products has risen dramatically
• Why Europe risks becoming a “museum” due to lack of adaptability
• Where the VC industry is struggling and how it needs to reinvent itself to stay relevant

This episode is an invitation to understand how the fundamental rules of software, venture capital, and startup building are being rewritten in the AI era – and what it takes to thrive rather than just survive in this new paradigm.

Topics

02:45 - Pascal’s journey from Switzerland to BCG to founding Focal VC

05:10 - The evolution of software: from systems of record to engagement to intelligence 

07:25 - Why systems of intelligence represent the biggest market opportunity in history 

09:50 - The role of trust in AI adoption and keeping humans in the loop 

13:35 - How startups can compete against foundation model providers with proprietary data 

16:20 - Building data moats through integration strategies and reducing friction 

20:25 - Trust-building measures for startups in high-stakes vs. low-risk use cases 

24:10 - Why the minimum bar for software quality is rising rapidly 

26:10 - The importance of adaptability and model flexibility in AI startups 

29:10 - The six dimensions for assessing founders: learning speed, execution, adaptability, emotional stability, grit, and integrity 

32:15 - Why curiosity and doing-over-thinking are more valuable than formal education 

37:30 - The US vs. Europe cultural divide: individualism vs. community-based societies&nb

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What if the very technology that promises to make us more efficient is actually creating “soul gaps” – spaces where human understanding and meaning simply cannot be replicated? In this deeply insightful episode of Poets and Thinkers, we explore the future of humanistic leadership with Michael Ventura, founder of SubRosa, author of “Applied Empathy,” and a fascinating polymath who bridges brand strategy, alternative medicine, and human development. From his practice at Esalen Institute to co-founding a pet food company with Chrissy Teigen and John Legend, Michael brings a unique perspective on how empathy serves as the new language of leadership.

Michael takes us on a journey through what empathy really means – distinguishing it from sympathy and compassion – and why it's become critical for leaders navigating increasingly diverse, multi-generational workforces. He shares compelling insights about how AI can replicate the technical aspects of creativity but misses the essential human elements, like where to place the divine spark of light in a Renaissance painting. Through examples ranging from political manipulation to Meta’s disturbing targeting of insecure teenagers, Michael reveals both the light and dark sides of applied empathy.

Throughout our conversation, Michael challenges us to slow down in a world obsessed with speed, arguing that patience – not just efficiency – should be a core leadership skill. He envisions a future where leaders move from having all the answers to asking all the right questions, creating space for diverse perspectives and collective intelligence. And we’ll even get a little teaser for Michael’s upcoming book on “constellation thinking” which promises to revolutionize how we understand purpose in our complex, multi-faceted modern lives.

In this discussion, we explore:

• Why empathy is not about being nice – it's about understanding without conversion
• How AI creates “soul gaps” where human meaning and divine sparks cannot be replicated
• The difference between cognitive empathy used for manipulation versus authentic connection
• Why leaders must transition from answer-givers to question-askers
• How patience becomes a revolutionary skill in our hyperconnected world
• The loss of shared cultural moments and emotional commons in our fragmented media landscape

This episode is an invitation to reclaim the deeply human skills that technology cannot replicate, and to use empathy not as weakness but as a strategic advantage in building more connected, innovative organizations.

Resources Mentioned

• Applied Empathy: The New Language of Leadership by Michael Ventura
• “The Dark Side of Empathy” - Michael’s New York Times op-ed
• “America's Uncontacted Tribes” article by Michael Ventura
• Center for Humane Technology - led by Tristan Harris
• Kismet – pet food company Michael co-founded with Chrissy Teigen and John Legend 

Connect with Michael Ventura:

Website: https://www.michaelventura.co/

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mvmvmv/

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What if the discomfort leaders feel right now, at the beginning of the AI age, isn’t a problem to solve, but the exact place where transformation happens? In this episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the future of organizational leadership and human potential with Meg Bear, a seasoned tech executive turned “future inventor” who brings a unique perspective as a fifth-generation Bay Area native and first-generation college graduate. From her advisory work with CEOs and boards to her mission of creating abundant futures that value our shared humanity, Meg offers a compelling vision for navigating unprecedented change.

Meg takes us on a journey through her unconventional life and career path – from engineering leadership at Oracle and president of SAP’s HCM (Human Capital Management) business to her current work helping organizations harness human ingenuity. She reveals why the traditional business leadership playbook – built on certainty and past experience – is not only obsolete but counterproductive in our current moment. 

Drawing from her background as a cultural outsider who learned to navigate different worlds, Meg explains how the skills of adaptation and cross-cultural communication that immigrants develop are exactly what all leaders need now.

Throughout our conversation, Meg challenges the narrative that change is simply happening to us, instead advocating for agency in shaping the future we want to live in. She argues that we’re at a unique moment where discomfort is hitting “all layers of the stack” – from the board room and the c-suite to the ICs – and that this discomfort is not only natural but necessary for growth. Her vision for leadership emphasizes curiosity over certainty, collective intelligence over individual expertise, and the courage to embrace vulnerability as a pathway to learning.

In this transformative discussion, we explore:

• Why the space between what you can’t control and what you can impact is bigger than you think
• How traditional business leadership models based on certainty are failing in uncertain times
• Why emotions are data that reveal deeper fears about changing definitions of competence
• The need for psychologically safe spaces where experienced leaders can express confusion
• How untapped human ingenuity could be unlocked through more inclusive value creation in organizations of the future
• Why our “messy bits” are actually our greatest sources of strength and adaptability

This episode is an invitation for leaders to move beyond fear-based reactions to inevitable change, and instead embrace the agency we have to invent futures that serve our shared humanity.

Resources Mentioned

• Reid Hoffman on GenAI as the cognitive industrial revolution: https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/mckinsey-digital/our-insights/gen-ai-a-cognitive-industrial-revolution
• The myth of exponential hypergrowth: https://longform.asmartbear.com/exponential-growth/
• Inventing the future: https://www.megbear.com/post/inventing-the-future
• Meg’s 2025 word of the year: https://www.megbear.com/post/word-for-2025-abundance

Connect with Meg Bear:

Website: megbear.com

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/megbear/

Bio

Meg Bear is a CEO, advisor, and board member. She was President of SAP SuccessFactors, a leading Human Capital Management (HCM) platform. She is a board member at Heidrick and Struggles, a patent holder, change agent, startup inve

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What if the struggle and friction in the creative process is actually what makes art meaningful – and what we’re at risk of losing in our rush toward AI efficiency? In this deeply reflective episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the intersection of human creativity and artificial intelligence with Nando Costa, a renowned designer and artist who has been at the very forefront of Generative AI (GenAI) and whose work has shaped the visual identity of major tech companies including Microsoft, Google, and ServiceNow. From his home studio on Bainbridge Island, Nando shares his journey from early GenAI experimentation to a deeper understanding of what makes creativity authentically human.

Nando takes us through his extensive exploration of generative AI, having created over 25,000 pieces using these tools, only to discover their addictive, slot-machine-like qualities and ultimate lack of artistic depth. He reveals how this experience led him to champion “slow photography,” deliberate creative processes, and the irreplaceable value of human intention in artistic work. Through compelling examples – from photographers camping for days to capture the perfect shot to his daughter’s (who’s also an artist) immediate rejection of AI-generated art – Nando illustrates why the time, energy, and personal investment we put into creating something directly correlates to its impact on others.

Throughout our conversation, Nando challenges the dominant narrative that speed and optimization should drive creative work, instead advocating for depth over speed and originality over optimization. His insights on brand work, creative leadership, and the future of design offer a compelling counter-narrative to the “AI will replace everything” mentality, showing how human creativity becomes more precious – not less – in an automated world.

In this thought-provoking discussion, we explore:

• Why generative AI feels addictive but ultimately lacks the depth of human-created art
• How the time and energy invested in creation directly impacts the meaning of the work
• Why Gen Z is gravitating toward analog processes like film photography and vinyl records
• The importance of “slow” and deliberate creative processes in maintaining authenticity
• How friction in the creative act isn’t a bug to be fixed, but a feature to be embraced
• What the future of brand work looks like when anyone can generate content instantly

This episode is an invitation to reconsider our relationship with creative tools and the creative act itself, to value the human struggle that gives art its meaning, and to champion depth and originality in an age of optimization.

Resources Mentioned

• Book: Slow Productivity
• Theo Jansen’s wind-powered beach sculptures
• SomeForm Studio example of curated AI automation in design
• FastCo article: Pentagram defends its use of generative AI
• Microsoft research on AI’s impact on workplace problem-solving abilities

Connect with Nando Costa:

Website: https://nandocosta.com/

Link

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Digitalization promised us a brave “new work” world. But instead we ended up with more meetings and “fake work”. What’s next and how do we transform our obsession with productivity tools and endless meetings into meaningful work and real innovation? 

In this episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the future of work with Markus Albers, a Berlin-based journalist, author, and entrepreneur whose insights have consistently anticipated major shifts in how we work. From his prescient 2008 book predicting remote work to his latest exploration of “the optimization lie,” Markus reveals how our relationship with work has evolved – and why the promised freedom of digital tools has instead chained us to our screens.

Markus takes us on a journey through the changing landscape of work, explaining how the initial promise of technology to free us from our desks has instead created an “always on” culture where work seeps into every aspect of our lives. He shares alarming research showing knowledge workers now spend 60% of their time in meetings and collaboration rather than doing creative work – and how this leads to widespread dissatisfaction and disengagement. And the effects on innovation in businesses around the world are fatal. Yet through his research with companies like Bayer, he also uncovers promising models for a more fluid, fulfilling future of work powered by AI and skill-based platforms.

Throughout our conversation, Markus challenges conventional management approaches that prioritize control over creation, arguing that leaders need to rediscover their own creative capacities and build organizations where people can actually finish their days feeling they’ve accomplished something meaningful. His vision for the future of work emphasizes fluidity, cross-organizational collaboration, and technology that serves human needs rather than extracting maximum productivity.

In this inspiring discussion, we explore:

• Why the initial promise of technology to make us more productive and happier hasn’t materialized
• How managers’ fear of losing control has led to calendar overload and measurement obsession
• The identity crisis facing managers as AI threatens to replace routine work
• What organizations like Bayer are doing to create more fluid, skill-based work models
• How leaders can fight for freedom from constant work in an AI-powered future

This episode is an invitation to reimagine our relationship with work—to move beyond optimization for its own sake and create environments where people can truly create, ship, and find fulfillment.

Topics

02:30 - Markus’s journey from journalist to author and entrepreneur 

04:00 - The Meconomy book and its early vision of the digital revolution 

07:30 - The evolution of the "future of work" from liberation to digital exhaustion 

09:10 - How we freed ourselves from desk chains but chained ourselves to screens instead 

11:30 - Leaders’ fear of losing control in hybrid work environments 

12:30 - The need to rediscover our capacity to create and ship meaningful work 

14:30 - Microsoft research showing knowledge workers spend 60% of time on collaboration 

16:00 - The leadership challenge of reconfiguring how work is done 

17:00 - The importance of asynchronous communication skills for leaders 

18:40 - The growing debate about “bullshit jobs” and management bureaucracy 

20:20 - Why design leadership provides a model for skill-based contributions 

25:40 - The dangers of believing every narrative from tech companies 

28:00 - How productivity gains from AI are often filled with even more meetings 

30:00 - “The Optimization Lie” - Markus’s new book on the broken promise of technology 

33:00 - The need for more fluid concepts of work beyond single full-tim

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What if the key to navigating our AI-driven future isn’t about becoming more technological, but rather more authentically human? In this inspiring episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the intersection of technology, leadership, and human dignity with Frances West, a pioneering executive whose wisdom spans decades of technological transformation. As IBM’s first-ever Chief Accessibility Officer and a global advocate for digital inclusion, Frances brings a unique perspective on how to harness AI’s potential while keeping humanity at the center.

Frances takes us on a journey through her remarkable career, from arriving in America at age 19 to becoming a trailblazing technology executive who helped shape IBM’s approach to human-centered innovation. Drawing on insights from her book “Authentic Inclusion™ Drives Disruptive Innovation,” she reveals why the skills we’ve traditionally considered “soft” – creativity, empathy, persistence, and ethical judgment – will become our most valuable assets in an AI-driven world.

Throughout our conversation, Frances challenges the dominant narratives around AI, arguing that as artificial intelligence becomes more advanced, humans must embrace and cultivate the qualities that make us uniquely human. She offers a compelling vision for business leadership that balances profit with principle and purpose, emphasizing that true innovation must be rooted in meeting authentic human needs rather than merely advancing technology for its own sake.

In this thought-provoking discussion, we explore:

• Why “human first” thinking is crucial for ethical technology development
• How digital inclusion benefits everyone, not just those with disabilities
• The leadership traits essential for navigating our AI-integrated future
• Why “popcorn innovation” fails where disciplined vision succeeds
• The balance between maintaining our authentic selves while embracing AI tools

This episode is an invitation to reimagine our relationship with technology through a lens of authentic inclusion, challenging us to develop the leadership qualities that will help humanity thrive alongside artificial intelligence.

Topics

00:30 - Introduction to Frances West and her career at IBM 

03:30 - The concept of “human first” in technology development 

06:00 - Balancing AI advancement with human dignity and agency 

13:30 - The importance of building inclusive technology from the start 

17:40 - How technology has evolved from mainframes to personalized devices 

21:10 - The human qualities AI cannot easily replicate 

27:10 - "As AI gets more human, humans need to get more human" 

30:40 - Balancing foundational skills with creativity in education 

34:00 - The evolution of leadership skills needed for an AI-integrated world 

36:00 - The Four L’s of leadership: Listen, Learn, Lived experience, Lead 

41:30 - Avoiding "popcorn innovation" with disciplined vision and execution 

45:30 - How sales experience grounds technological innovation 

50:40 - Frances’s vision for the future of business leadership 

52:00 - The Five C’s for future leaders: Confidence, Conviction, Communication, Curiosity, and Courage

Resources Mentioned

Authentic Inclusion™ Drives Disruptive Innovation by Frances West 

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What if our fixation on avoiding failure is the very thing blocking us from building organizations that maximize human ingenuity? And why is this business critical in the AI age? 

In this episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the intersection of leadership, innovation, and human potential with John Danner, renowned business advisor, professor, and bestselling author. Drawing on his extensive experience teaching at UC Berkeley and Princeton while advising leaders across sectors, John challenges conventional wisdom about what drives organizational success in our rapidly evolving AI-everything world.

John takes us on a journey through what he calls the three fundamental organizational pursuits – growth, innovation, and engagement – and reveals why they all depend on the one thing leaders often fear most: failure. He explains why the status quo serves as the greatest obstacle to progress and how our natural human bias toward familiarity creates resistance to change. Through compelling insights and personal anecdotes from decades of personal experience, John illuminates how fear silences organizational creativity while analyzing startling Gallup research showing only 20% of employees globally are truly engaged in their work.

As we navigate the profound transformation brought by AI and other technologies, John presents a critical fork in the road: organizations can pursue "AI to the max" with minimal human input, or they can embrace a more humanistic model built on human ingenuity, imagination, and collaboration. His vision for “invitational leadership” offers a compelling alternative to extractive models that have dominated business thinking for generations.

In this discussion, we explore:

• Why failure is the unavoidable companion to genuine growth and innovation
• How fear serves as the “border patrol” for the status quo in organizations
• The alarming reality that only one in five employees globally is engaged at work
• The third revolutionary period we’re entering: the inclusion challenge
• Why leaders must shift from extraction to resourcefulness in building sustainable organizations
• The power of “invitational leadership” in unleashing human creativity at all levels

This episode is an invitation to reimagine leadership for a more human-centered future, challenging us to develop organizational cultures where everyone – not just an elite few – can contribute their inherent creativity and imagination.

Topics

03:10 - The three fundamentals every organization strives for: growth, innovation, and engagement 

04:20 - How growth, innovation, and engagement all depend on failure 

06:30 - The status quo as the primary obstacle to change and improvement 

08:50 - The interconnection between fear, feedback, and failure in organizational culture 

12:00 - Leaders acknowledging their own fallibility to create psychological safety 

13:10 - Gallup research on employee engagement: only 20% engaged, 15% actively disengaged 

15:10 - The concept of “growth for both” – aligning organizational and individual growth 

17:30 - The three revolutionary periods: industrial, information, and now the inclusion challenge 

21:00 - Two possible futures: “AI to the max” versus human ingenuity and imagination 

26:00 - Challenging extractive business models in favor of resourcefulness 

28:10 - Shifting from “leadership” to “weedership” –  the power of “we” in organizations 

31:30 - Creating an “invitational model” of leadership across growth, innovation, and engagement 

38:40 - The difference between “trial and error” culture versus “trial and terror” reality 

41:30 - Advice for aspiring leaders: know the difference between pivoting and riveting 

43:10 - The ACT framework: Ask questions, Chall

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