From New York to California, the 2025 elections carry important implications for the Jewish community. AJC New York Director Josh Kramer addresses concerns over New York City mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani, who has questioned Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state and accused it of genocide. Kramer highlights fears over rising antisemitism in New York and outlines AJC's plan to engage the Mayor-elect on combating hate crimes while remaining vigilant against policies that could target Israel.

Looking beyond New York, AJC's Director of National Political Outreach, Rebecca Klein, provides an overview of broader election results, including the victories of Democratic governors in New Jersey and Virginia, as well as the political impact of California's Proposition 50 on redistricting. She explains what these outcomes could mean for Jewish communities and national advocacy efforts.

Key Resources:

• A Letter to Mayor-Elect Zohran Mamdani

• AJC's Efforts to Support the Hostages

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• Architects of Peace

• The Forgotten Exodus

• People of the Pod

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Transcript of the Interview:

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

The first election season since last year's presidential elections is behind us, giving New York City a new mayor, New Jersey and Virginia new governors and California a green light to redraw its map of congressional districts. 

We asked Rebecca Klein, AJC's Director of National Political Outreach, to explain what the 2025 election results mean for the American Jewish community. 

But first we wanted to hear from Josh Kramer, regional director of AJC New York, about the election of Zohran Mamdani as the 111th mayor of New York City, the largest Jewish community outside the state of Israel. 

Josh, if you could please tell us why that matters, why it matters that the largest Jewish community outside Israel is in New York City, and why the prospect of Mr. Mamdani at the helm of City Hall is a concern. 

Josh Kramer: 

So as you noted, New York has the largest Jewish population in the country and outside of Israel as well. Jews in New York City are scratching their heads today. They're asking themselves, how could it have come to be that a candidate has been elected to the highest office in the land who espouses views that are contrary to so much of the bulk of the mainstream Jewish population in New York City. Views that isolate and demonize and hold Israel to a double standard. This is a challenging day for many in the Jewish community.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

If you could rewind, for listeners who have not been following the mayoral election in New York City, because it's sometimes hard for us here in the New York metropolitan area to remember we are not the center of the world. People are more concerned with issues in their own backyard. But if you could please just kind of fill those listeners in on why Mr. Mamdani was a concern and how he expressed those views that you just spoke of being contradictory to the mainstream Jewish community.

Josh Kramer:

Absolutely, but I will take issue with New York not being the center of the Jewish world, of course, as the director for the AJC New York Regional Office. So I'll say that we know a lot about mayor-elect Mamdani's views on Israel from his long track record, from his statements that he's made along the campaign trail, from bills that he had proposed as a member of the state legislature. 

And mayor-elect Mamdani has espoused strong views in support of the BDS movement to isolate and dismantle Israel. He's called into question the Jewish nature of the world's only Jewish state, and he has had a very difficult time consistently calling out and labeling Hamas as a terrorist organization, condemning their actions of holding hostages and otherwise. So it has been a concern that these issues have been at issue during this election. 

But of course, we know that this election wasn't about the issues that AJC cares most about. Most people who went to the polls were voting about affordability issues or about bread and butter issues or filling potholes. Some were voting in alignment with their views on Israel. Many in the Jewish community, many who supported the mayor elect were misaligned with the candidates views on Israel. But I think most people were going to the polls based on those affordability issues. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

You answered my next question, which was, why did he win? And it sounds like you do not believe that it was necessarily a referendum on Israel. 

Josh Kramer: 

I think that there's been a lot of writing and a lot of discussion along the campaign trail about these issues. He has been, and other candidates have been asked about their support for the Jewish community and about what they would do to combat the rising tide of antisemitism, which has been a part of the campaign the entire time. 

But his non-support of the State of Israel has been a major issue in the campaign. It's just not the issue that I think that people were going to the polls and making their decisions based on. I think that there certainly were people who are motivated either by or repulsed by the now mayor-elect's views on Israel, but I don't think that it was their top issue. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So you actually penned a letter to the mayor elect after his victory was announced. What did you say in that letter? What did you tell him? 

Josh Kramer:  

So AJC will work with this new mayor where we can, and that's one of the two core messages, I think, of the letter. We will work with this mayor on his pledge to quadruple, or octuple, the funding to combat hate crimes in New York City. We want to make sure that that funding is spent wisely and appropriately in the city government. 

We will work with him on a number of issues where we can align. Modeling, Muslim-Jewish dialog, if that is an area where we can work with the mayor elect. But the second message, and perhaps the more important message, is we will be there to speak out where we need to and understanding that this mayor elect has espoused BDS views for years now, since his days in college, and perhaps before. That we will speak out where we need to, should BDS principles be attempted by the city government as a result of those views. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

You mentioned the funds that he has pledged for combating hate crimes, and I imagine that will require some input from community organizations, especially Jewish organizations, since the Jewish population is often targeted by hate crimes, do you worry that weighing in as much as you did during campaign season will harm your chances of being able to work with and and negotiate and yeah, work in harmony with this mayor. 

Josh Kramer: 

AJC did feel the need to be on record for this election. And in fact, even prior to the election, we felt we needed to be on record given some of the rhetoric we've seen from this candidate. At the same time, we have engaged with representatives of the mayor's team of the now mayor elects team, and we hope to continue that dialog, to hope to continue to work together where we can. I hope that we haven't harmed our chances to provide input to where hate crimes funding should be spent or could be spent. You're right. Hate Crimes against Jews in New York City, they differ from national statistics in that in New York City, we are the victims of the majority of hate crimes, not just the victims of the religiously motivated or just religious, religiously based hate crimes. 

And that means, on average, Jews in New York City are subject to hate crimes, on average, about once per day throughout the year, at least that was the case in 2024 and so we hope very much to be able to monitor and affect how this funding will be spent and make sure that it's spent appropriately in combating the majority of hate crimes, which comprise the Jewish hate crimes. 

In fact, there was a hate crime that took place earlier today, one of our on average, one hate crimes per day that we experience against the Jewish community in New York City, and it was a swastika spray painted on a yeshiva in Brooklyn. And just earlier today, mayor elect Mamdani tweeted out, this is a disgusting and heartbreaking act of antiSemitism. It has no place in our beautiful city, and as mayor, he will stand steadfast with our Jewish neighbors to root out the scourge of antiSemitism from our city. So it's an area of interest for us to continue to engage and to see that kind of rhetoric from our leaders is very helpful. So that's, that's what we will continue to look for and also be vigilant at the same time. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

In fact, do you see that as being an entree into conversations and dialog that perhaps just did not, did not happen during the campaign season, for whatever reason, sometimes campaigns can get a little heated and the rhetoric can get a little fiery to fire up the base. Do you have hope? Are you optimistic that perhaps a more rational dialog will emerge during his tenure, and that perhaps this hate crime conversation will be part of it? 

Josh Kramer:

I do think that that can happen. It can be that strong relationships can be built out of open and very much public dialog, like the letter that was sent out, and it's happened before in New York, we've started very strong relationships with elected leaders in New York City by first starting with very public disagreements. Now that's not our typical way of advocating. Of course, our typical way is diplomatically and behind closed doors, holding very open and frank conversations, but in circumstances like these, perhaps this is the best way to start a conversation. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Well, Josh, thank you so much for sharing your views on the mayoral election, and now we'll turn to Rebecca Klein to talk about some of the other election results from this week. 

Rebecca, welcome to People of the Pod. 

Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:

Thank you for having me.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So now that was one major municipal election this week. We also had smaller municipal elections across the country. There was an election in a suburb of Boston where voters voted to divest from Israel. In this Boston suburb, were there other examples of that in elections across the country, and why did this happen? 

Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:

So, you know, Boston has been sort of a challenge for us for some time now, and we as an organization have been addressing this. And I think this is a movement, the BDS movement, is one that we've been sort of countering for years now, and really had made a lot of progress, and it's coming back up again now you see sort of in the wake of 10/7 and in some of the concerns about the Israeli government. 

But I see this too as sort of these more symbolic gestures, right? And I think there is a movement out there. The Jewish community is paying attention. We are doing everything we can to counter these measures. I do think they are few and far between, and I think largely again, really, to get their messaging out there. These are sort of messaging points, but please know that we are doing everything we can to sort of quiet that noise, that these are not city issues, and we need to be sort of supportive of the Jewish community, especially now in the wake of rising antisemitism everywhere. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So we'll go up from municipal elections and look at some statewide elections, some gubernatorial votes. We had Mikie Sherril win in the state of New Jersey against Republican candidate Jack Ciattarelli, and then we also had Abigail Spanberger in Virginia become governor. So two women as the head of states. What does this mean for the Jewish communities in those states and also across the country? 

Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein: 

So it's some good news, because I think both these candidates, these governors-elect have been really pro-Israel, pro-support of the Jewish community. Have loudly spoken out and shared their support. Have condemned antisemitism, and have really made it a part of their campaign, a part of their statements. 

I'll also just note that I think the truth is, is that whoever had won both of these elections, we were going to have a friend in the Jewish community. And this is a really important thing to note, because it sometimes can feel like there's a partisan divide between support for the Jewish community right now on Israel and antisemitism. 

And I'll say, when I see these races, where I look at it and I say, You know what, whoever wins, regardless of what else is going on in the background, I know that we can have lines in, we can have communication, and I feel we can have trusted partners. I'll also say that the interesting thing about, you know, we go right from the New York mayor's race to these two gubernatorial races, and you see a real shift from, you know, a very far side of the party to really moderate, centrist Democrats, both winning their primaries and now winning these elections, which I think says a lot. 

It's something I'm going to be looking for absolutely going into these midterms. But I do think it's very loud, and I think it's a counterbalance. For people who are concerned about the extremes of the parties, and I am too as well. Of course, I'm concerned, especially as AJC, as a nonpartisan organization that strives to be bipartisan and bring people together, that we have these now very moderate, reasonable voices leading these two very important states.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

And in fact, in New Jersey, AJC hosted a candidates forum, and all of the candidates had an opportunity to share their views about combating antisemitism. Correct? 

Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein: 

Absolutely, they did, and it really is a testament not to AJC and our influence, but also to the way that these candidates felt that they did need to address our issues, that they wanted to come to our forum in order to really go on the record.

They felt that it was important to the population of the state of New Jersey that they had to be on the record for our issues. And absolutely, I think that's an important thing. And I'm glad to see that more and more candidates are taking these positions. They're not shying away from these positions, and they're creating important relationships within the Jewish community. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

And just speaking of these two candidates, Governor-elect Spanberger And Governor-elect Sherril, were they aware and alarmed by a rise of antisemitism in their states? 

Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein: 

Absolutely, and particularly some of the rhetoric so in the primary some of this antisemitism or anti-Israel rhetoric came up. And Abigail Spanberger really spoke to it. I think she spoke to it really nicely. She talked about, you know, it's okay to have differences of opinions, but ultimately, we can never cross the line into antisemitism. Mikie Sherril too really has been supportive of the IHRA working definition of antisemitism. Both really have addressed it. They understand that in a post 10/7 world, we really can't take these things for granted. And I know that both of these leaders, I think, will be good friends of the Jewish community and will absolutely be on the forefront of combating antisemitism in their states. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So I'm going to move over to the west coast and talk about the election in California. I know we have some listeners in California who care about this, about Prop 50, but should people in other states across the nation be looking at California's Prop 50 and thinking about how it might affect them? 

Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein: 

Look, I think it's an important conversation. I think it's a difficult conversation, especially for us as we think about what democratic values really mean, when we talk about that as an ideal. Are these major redistricting efforts really the way we want to be thinking about our elections from now on? There are cases to be made on both sides. I think to some degree, if this is going to be the state of the future, you have to level the playing field. 

I think that's what California's voters said. They said, We need a level playing field. We need those extra five seats. You know, again, my concern is, where are we going to see the ripple effects of this? Now some states are absolutely backing off these redistricting efforts immediately after this election, which I probably think is maybe the better or the safer way to go. 

Because, again, one of the things to keep in mind is, when you create these new seats, you have to think about who are going to be the people running in these seats, whether we're talking about California or Texas. Are we now inviting people from the more extreme parts of the party to be running for these offices, and are we going to like what we get when those people win? 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Could you go back and explain to listeners what prop 50 is?

Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein: 

Absolutely. So basically, prop 50 was on the ballot and California voters got to vote for it yesterday in the election. Basically it allows California to now create a new map, and it'll be with five seats that likely, I should say, will heavily favor Democrats. It will change the map of California pretty drastically in the upcoming midterm elections.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

And it's similar to the redistricting that happened in Texas, for example, although it wasn't as drastic a change, correct? I believe that's true, yes, but other states are redistricting as well, or at least discussing redrawing their maps. 

Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein: 

Yeah, other states are now talking about it. But like I said, I'm seeing some early sort of signs from some of these states that they may be backing off of that conversation. Again, you don't really know how it's going to play out when you do these efforts. I'll also say that it seems like the campaign to run this prop 50, it seemed a little disorganized all around and so again, if you're going to do this sort of thing, you really want to know that you're going to win it, because it can have really detrimental effects from cycle to cycle, election to election. 

So we'll sort of see, when we look at them, at these elections, these off-year elections, they're signals. They're signals to the major parties, they're signals to state parties, they're signals to voters. 

And so I think everyone's sort of now doing the analysis in just the hours after this election to see, okay, what does it mean? You know, should we be pivoting our messaging? Are we pivoting the way that we're doing things? And I think we're going to see some shuffling. 

And you can, again, you can already sort of see it. You'll hear it in some commentary. You'll see it on Twitter. People are a little bit, there are nerves out there. There's a lot of spin. Every party is going to sort of present their case here. But again, I think there's a lot to learn from what happened yesterday, and we're going to see these effects in the days ahead, in the weeks ahead, and absolutely in the months ahead. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So where else should we be talking about? We mentioned Virginia, we mentioned New York and New Jersey and California. Were there any other elections of note? 

Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein: 

Yeah, there were some local Supreme Court races in Pennsylvania that went democratic, that could have gone either way. There was something in Maine, an absentee ballot measure that was a Republican-led measure that was voted down, and many viewed that as a way to sort of bring voter participation down. So that was considered, I'd say, a win from a democratic perspective. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Wonderful, well Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us and putting this week's election in perspective. 

Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein: 

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with former White House speechwriter Sarah Hurwitz about her new book As a Jew: Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us.

"To me, that ark is: engaging deeply with our traditions. It's reclaiming some of what we lost when we were assimilating and trying to fit in. We have thousands of years of text that have such wisdom about the human condition, about how to be a good person, and lead a worthy life . . . What we can really do is, we can be Jews. And to be a Jew has always been to be different."

Sarah Hurwitz—former White House speechwriter and New York Times bestselling author of Here All Along—returns to People of the Pod to discuss her new book, As a Jew: Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us.

Hurwitz reflects on why antisemitism remains, in her words, "the least mysterious phenomenon," and how Jews can reclaim pride, wisdom, and purpose through Jewish text, practice, and community. Drawing from her work as a hospital chaplain and her conversations with Jewish students on campus, she makes a powerful case for reconnecting with the depth and resilience of Jewish tradition.

Key Resources:

• AJC's Translate Hate Glossary

• AJC's Efforts to Support the Hostages

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• Architects of Peace

• The Forgotten Exodus

• People of the Pod

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Transcript of the Interview:

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

During the Obama administration, Sarah Hurwitz served as senior speech writer for President Barack Obama and chief speech writer for First Lady Michelle Obama. But after she left the White House, she did a little bit of soul searching, and in her mid 30s, reconnected with her Judaism. She wrote about it in a book titled Here All Along, and joined us at the time to talk about it. Sarah has returned with us this week to talk about the book that followed, titled As a Jew: Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us. 

Sarah, welcome back to People of the Pod.

Sarah Hurwitz: 

Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

So your title has a very powerful accusation. So tell us who is blaming, shaming and trying to erase us?

Sarah Hurwitz:  

Yeah. So, you know, it's funny. My first book, as you know, was this love letter toJudaism. This, this journey of discovery of Jewish tradition, and I loved it so much, and I wanted to share it.

You know, as I was writing it, I was thinking, Oh, where has this been all my life. Kind of a lovely, almost rhetorical question. But after it came out, a few things kind of happened that made me actually ask that question more seriously. Like, Wait, why did I not see any of the 4000 years of Jewish wisdom growing up? 

The first thing was, I trained to be a volunteer hospital chaplain, and you know, chaplaincy is multifaith, open to chaplains of all backgrounds. But you know, the training was kind of weirdly Christian. You know, we would talk about our ministry and our theology. And I was told that prayer is God, please heal so and so who's right here in front of me, and I'm just making this prayer up spontaneously, and they can hear me, and that's prayer. And everyone prays that way, I was told. I said, You know that that's not really a common form of Jewish prayer. But I was told, No, no, as long as you don't say Jesus, it is universal. That's interesting. 

And then something else that happened is I visited a college campus probably a year before October 7, and I was talking to students there at the Hillel, talking to a bunch of Jewish students. And one of them asked me, What did you do to respond to antisemitism when you were in college? And I was so stunned, I didn't even understand the question at first. And then I said, I didn't, not once, never. Not a single time did I deal with antisemitism. 

And the kids just looked kind of shocked, like they didn't believe me. And they started sharing stories of the antisemitism they were facing on campus. And I thought, uh oh, something's going on here. And then I really began kind of taking a deep dive into my identity. 

Of like, wait, so why did I spend my whole life being like, oh, I'm just a cultural Jew. I knew nothing about Jewish culture. Which is a beautiful way to be Jewish, being a cultural Jew, but I knew nothing about history, language, anything like that. When I said I'm an ethnic Jew, but Jews are of every ethnicity, so that's nonsense. 

Or I'd say social justice is my Judaism, but I didn't know anything about what Judaism said about social justice. Unlike these wonderful Jews who do know about social justice and spend their lives acting out Jewish social justice. 

And so I took a deep dive into history, and what I discovered was 2000 years of antisemitism and anti-Judaism and 200 years of Jews in Western Europe in a very understandable attempt to escape that persecution, kind of erasing many of our traditions.

And I think that was kind of my answer to, where has this been all my life? And also my answer to, why did I have such an apologetic Jewish identity for so much of my life?

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

In my introduction, I left off half the title of your first book because it was very long, but I am curious, kind of, when did you realize . . . well, let me give the full title of your book, it's Here All Along: Finding Meaning, Spirituality, and a Deeper Connection to Life--in Judaism (After Finally Choosing to Look There). 

So I guess, how was that delayed connection to Judaism, can you elaborate a little bit more about how it was tied to these forces that you just talked about?

Sarah Hurwitz: 

Yeah, so, you know, something that I didn't really fully understand, I had intimations of this, but didn't really understand this, is that, you know, 2000 years ago, early Christianity very much defined itself against Judaism. There was actually a name for this, the Aversos Judeos tradition, which means against the Jews in Latin. 

And you know, early Church Fathers very much were defining Christianity against Judaism, because back then, both of these traditions had originated from Judaism. And you know they parted ways at some point, and the Church Fathers were really trying to distinguish Christianity from Judaism, and to get people to stop kind of practicing both traditions.

This tradition really continues with Judaism defined as unspiritual, legalistic, depraved, dead, spiritually superseded. A lot of very, very ugly tropes that kind of have common themes that say that Jews are diabolically powerful, so supernaturally powerful, you can't even believe it. They are also profoundly depraved, evil, bloodthirsty, perverse, and they're in a conspiracy to hurt you. So there may be very few of them, but man, they are working together to really do harm. 

And you see these three themes kind of making their way through history, unfortunately, all the way basically, until the Holocaust. And I based a lot of my writing on the work of a number of really distinguished Christian scholars who make this argument. It's actually a pretty common argument among Christian scholars. 

And, you know, in recent decades, the church has very much disavowed its historic anti-Judaism and has worked very hard to, you know, fight antisemitism in the church. But, you know, these things really did kind of continue on through the 20th century.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

So you do describe in your book moments when you got oddly defensive about your Judaism, or perhaps a bit revisionist about Jewish history and the origin of Jewish traditions, or the reason why they exist now in modern day. Can you elaborate on some of those moments for our listeners and explain how you've self-corrected thatdefense?

Sarah Hurwitz: 

You know, I think a lot of it took the form of, oh, I'm Jewish, but not that Jewish. It was just sort of this immediate, but I'm not one of those Jews. You know, those really Jewish Jews. Well, I'm sorry, would it be a problem if I were? What if social justice wasn't my Judaism, but Judaism was my Judaism? Would that be okay? You know, just beginning to notice, like, Why am I always kind of pushing it away, claiming that I'm not too Jewish?

That's a very strange way to announce someone's identity. I think, you know, Dara Horn has actually a really, quite an amazing essay called The Cool Kids, and she talks about these two different types of antisemitism. And one is this kind of eliminationist antisemitism which says the Jews are bad, there's nothing they can do to be good. We must kill them. And you know, that is the Holocaust, pogroms.

We learn about that kind of antisemitism in school. But there's another kind of antisemitism, which is conversionist, which says, yes, the Jews are bad, but there is something they can do to be okay and saved. And that is, they can disavow whatever we, the majority, find disgusting about Jewish civilization. 

So you know, back in the day, it was, reject Jewish religion and convert to Christianity, and you'll be saved, maybe. For some amount of time, possibly. In my parents and grandparents generation, it was, you know, reject your last name, get a nose job. Stop being so "Jewy", be a little bit more "waspy," and then maybe we'll let you into our club. Then maybe we'll accept you. 

And today, what you see is you have to reject your ancestral homeland, you know, reject Israel, and then you'll be okay. And, you know, I visited 27 college campuses, and I kind of saw how this sometimes takes on the format of almost like a Christian conversion narrative, where it goes something like, you know, growing up, my rabbi and my parents told me Israel was perfect and amazing and a utopia. And then I got to college, and I realized that actually it's a colonialist, Nazi, racist society, and I had an epiphany. I saw the light, and I took anti-Zionism and anti-colonialism into my heart, and now I'm saved. Now I'm a good Jew. And their classmates are like, now you're a good Jew. 

And as Dara Horn puts it, this kind of antisemitism involves the weaponization of shame. It involves really trying to convince Jews that there is something fundamentally shameful about some aspect of themselves, their identity, their tradition. And today, that thing is Israel. This idea that there's something fundamentally . . . it's like the original sin of the world.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

And you also talk about the tradition of circumcision, and how that came up, and you found yourself explaining this to someone. Can you elaborate on that for our listeners? Which I thought was really interesting. 

Sarah Hurwitz: 

This was during an encounter with a patient. I was doing a chaplaincy shift, and  usually I don't tell my patients my religious background, I'm very neutral, unless they're Jewish, in which case, I do tell them I'm Jewish. But, you know, I was finishing up a conversation with this very lovely lady. And she was very curious about my background. And so I told her, you know, I'm Jewish. And her eyes kind of lit up, and she said, Oh, you know, many of my neighbors are Jewish. I've actually been to two brisses in the past month. 

And she just, you know, and she was so lovely, like, she actually seemed to be just really happy to be included in this tradition of her neighbors. And I got weirdly defensive, and was like, Oh, well, you know, just so, you know, medical professionals, they say whether you circumcise or don't circumcise, it's really, it's equally safe either way. And you know, we often, you know, when we do brisses, they're often done by a medical provider. 

And I'm going on and on and like, this woman did not say the slightest negative thing about this tradition, but suddenly I am defensive. Suddenly it's like, Huh, interesting. You know, I think that it was an illustration to me of the way that we can sometimes really imbibe all of the kind of negative views about Jews and Jewish traditions that are around us, and become defensive, and sometimes we don't even realize that they're there. It's almost like they're the air that we breathe.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

But let me challenge that and push back a little bit. I mean, is it okay to not agree with some of the traditions of the Jewish faith and be open about your disagreement with that? I certainly know a lot of Christians who don't like things that emerge from their tradition or from their community. Is that okay? Or is it not when Judaism is threatened?

Sarah Hurwitz: 

So I actually do think that's okay. You know, I have no problem with that, but I think the problem in this situation was that I have no problem with circumcision, but I'm suddenly getting defensive and trying to convince this woman that it's not weird. And I'm thinking, why am I doing this? It was very interesting to me that I felt so suddenly defensive and anxious. You know, it was very surprising to me.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

And similarly, it's okay to criticize Israeli policy too, right? I mean, it's totally acceptable. 

Sarah Hurwitz: 

Absolutely. This is the thing that I'm so confused about. Where people are saying, well, you know, you're saying that it's not okay to criticize Israel. And I'm like, I'm sorry. Have you been to Israel? It's like the national pastime there to criticize the government. I criticize the Israeli government all the time, as do millions of American Jews. 

This idea that this is somehow… that we're somehow reacting to criticism of Israel, that's ridiculous. I think what we're reacting to is not criticism of Israel, but it's something else. You know, when you have students on a college campus saying from water to water, Palestine should be Arab, or Israelis are Nazis. I just, with all due respect, I don't see that as criticism.

Nor would I see it as criticism if, God forbid, a Jewish student ever said from water to water, Israel should be Jewish, or, Palestinians are terrorists. That is hateful, disgusting, racist, eliminationist language. And if I ever heard a Jewish student say that, I mean, let me tell you, I would have quite a talking to with that kid. 

So that's not criticism. Criticism is, I am vehemently opposed and abhor, this policy, this ideology, this action, for these reasons. That's criticism. And I think you can use real strong language to do that kind of criticism. But there's a difference between a criticism and slurs and baseless accusations. And I think we need to be just clear about that.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

All right, so you just use the term from water to water instead of from river to sea. Was that on purpose?

Sarah Hurwitz: 

Not necessarily. It's just a clearer illustration of what I think from the river to the sea really means, you know, I think  that is the Arabic that is used. Infrom the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free. It's like, you can kind of make an argument that this is about Palestinian Liberation. And okay, fair enough. But I think when you get the from water to water, it shall be Arab, that's when I think there's less of an argument that it's about freedom, and it seems a little bit more eliminationist to me.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

Interesting. I've not heard that before. But I like that. So you call antisemitism the least mysterious phenomenon. Can you please explain what you mean by that?

Sarah Hurwitz: 

Yeah, you know, I think, like a lot of young people, my antisemitism education was mainly just Holocaust education. And I kind of walked away thinking like, huh, how wild that the civilized world just lost its mind in the mid-20th century and started killing Jews. That's so shocking and disturbing, you know, why is that? And the answer was kind of like, well, you know, the Germans lost World War I. They blamed the Jews. There was a depression. They blamed the Jews. 

And when you ask why the Jews, it's like, well, because of prejudice and scapegoating. I'm like, Okay, right. But again, why the Jews? Prejudice and scapegoating, that's the answer. It's like, well, actually, the answer really is because of 2000 years of Christian anti-Judaism that preceded that. It wasn't mysterious why the Jews were targeted. 

This was a 2000-year neural groove that had been worn into the Western world psyche. And this is not my argument. This is the argument of countless Christian scholars whose brilliant work I cite. And so I think that the unfortunate thing about some forms of Holocaust education is that it leaves you with the impression that, oh, this is so mysterious, it's just kind of eternal and kind of comes out of nowhere. Or even worse, you might even think maybe we did something to deserve this. But it's not mysterious. I can show you its path through history. 

And I think it's very important that Jews understand this history. And look, I think this is very hard to teach in an average American public school. Because, you know, we live in a country where, you know, saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas is very upsetting for some people. They feel very threatened and triggered by that. 

So for a teacher to say, like, Okay, kids today we're going to learn about how 2000 years of Christian anti-Judaism paved the way for the Holocaust . . . I don't think that's going to go well. Even if many mainstream Christian scholars would agree that that's true, this is a challenge that we face.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

So you have continued, as you said, to visit college campuses where antisemitism has been an issue since October 7, more of an issue than it even was beforehand. And yet, when you were at Harvard and Harvard Law, you've said you could have walked through Harvard Yard wrapped in an Israeli flag and no one would have said a word or reacted negatively. So what has changed, and does it signal a more general shift on campuses of kind of uncensored, unbridled speech? 

In other words, if black students support black lives matter, or gay students are marching for pride, do you feel like there's a sense that students who disagree with that from either the right or the left, have kind of claimed a license to criticize that too?

Sarah Hurwitz: 

No. I try to explain to college students when they say, Well, okay, my campus isn't that bad, you know, I can wear my Jewish star, and I won't get, you know, harassed or ostracized. And I say, like, okay, great, if it's not that bad, I'll just wear my Israel t-shirt and we'll see how it goes. They're like, No. 

And then I have to go through this long litany of like, okay, if your black classmate said to you, well, this campus isn't so bad for black students, but I can't wear my Black Lives Matter t-shirt or else I'll be harassed and ostracized. I hope you would say that's not okay, that's racism, pretty clear. Or if your queer classmate said, Well, this campus is pretty good for queer people, but I can't wear my pride t-shirt, I hope you would say, That's not pretty good. That's homophobia. 

You know, when the majority feels entitled to decide how the minority can embody and express their identity, I think we have a really serious problem. And  sometimes the kids will push back on me. Well, no, no, but the problem isn't being Jewish. It's Israel. I'm like, okay, but if your Chinese American classmate wore a t-shirt that said China, even if all your classmates knew that the Chinese government had been interning a million Muslim Uighurs in camps and subjecting them to horrific human rights violations, would they harass and ostracize her? 

And they're like, Well, probably not. Right, because they would assume that she has a relationship to China that maybe involves having heritage there, or maybe she studied abroad there, or maybe she's studying Chinese, maybe she has family there. I think they would assume that she has some connection to the country that doesn't involve agreeing with the policies of the Chinese government, and Jewish students on campus really aren't afforded that courtesy. 

And I'll tell you, most of the Jewish students I spoke with on campus, they, like me, are extremely critical of this current Israeli government. Extremely, extremely critical. They have all sorts of criticisms about what's happening in Gaza, of the occupation. 

You know, their views are quite nuanced and complex, but there is no room given for that. You know, I think on some college campuses, Israel has been put into the same bucket as the KKK and the Nazi party. So I can't say to you, look, you know, I'm a Nazi, but I'm a liberal Nazi. Or, oh, you know, I'm in the KKK, but I'm not racist. It's like, come on, right? 

These are vile entities with which no connection is acceptable, period. And I think once Israel ceases to be a country and instead becomes the representation of all evil in the world, there's really no relationship that you can have with it that's acceptable. And I think that is a pretty devastating place for it to be today. 

And I'll tell you, I think it's a really challenging moment right now where I, like a lot of American Jews, I'm a Zionist. I believe that Jews have a right to a safe and secure home state in their ancestral homeland. I believe we have the right to national independence and self determination, like Japanese people have in Japan and Latvians have in Latvia, and on and on. And you know, we've run that experiment of Jewish powerlessness for 2000 years, and it didn't go well. Even as late as the 20th century. It wasn't just that two thirds of Jews in Europe got wiped out because of the Holocaust. 

It's that nearly a million Jews who lived in Arab lands had to flee persecution, most of them to Israel. It's that 2 million Russian Jews had to flee persecution, half of them to Israel. It's that 10s of 1000s of Ethiopian Jews, I can go on and on. So we know, we've run that experiment of Jewish statelessness, and it doesn't go well. 

And at the same time, we are looking at this current Israeli government, and we are appalled. We're appalled by the ideology, we're appalled by many of the policies. And you know, for me as an American, this feels very familiar, because I love this country. I'm a proud, patriotic American, and I happen to very much disagree with the current president. I happen to be very much appalled by the current president's policies and ideology. And so, I think many people are able to hold that, but somehow it's harder with Israel, because of what is in the air right now.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

So, really you're saying that antisemitism has distorted history. Distorted people's understanding of Israel's history, their understanding of modern Israel's rebirth and existence. It spawned anti-Zionism. Correct? 

Sarah Hurwitz:  

Yes.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

Did you encounter that during your time in the Obama administration? Do you see it now, in hindsight or or is it a more recent emergence?

Sarah Hurwitz:  

I think this is more recent. I mean, you know, probably in some spaces it was, you know, I was in the administration from 2009 to 2017. I never once saw any kind of anti-Zionism or antisemitism. I mean, it was one of the best places to be a proud, passionate Jew. I knew my colleagues could not have been more supportive of my Jewish exploration. They were so proud when I wrote my first book. 

So I never saw any of this ever, once. And I think, you know, I think what is so confusing about this is that we often think about antisemitism as a kind of personal prejudice, like, oh, you know, Jews are fill in the blank, nasty thing. They are dirty, cheap, crass. I don't want my daughter to marry one. I don't want one in my country club. 

You don't really see that kind of antisemitism in the circles where I travel anymore. What you see instead is more of political antisemitism, which is antisemitism as a kind of conspiracy theory that says that we, the majority, are engaged in a grand moral project, and the only thing stopping us are these Jews. We the majority are Christianizing the Roman Empire. 

The only thing stopping us, these Jews who won't convert. We the majority are bringing about the brotherhood of man, the great communist revolution. The only thing stopping us, these capitalist Jews. We the Germans, are bringing about the great, racially pure Aryan fatherland. The only thing stopping us – these race-polluting Jews. 

And today in America, you see it on the right and the left. On the right, it's, you know, we white Christian Americans are bringing back white Christian civilization to America. And the only thing stopping us are these Jews who are importing black and brown immigrants to replace white people. That is the extremely racist and antisemitic theory known as the Great Replacement theory. It is an ugly, disgusting lie. 

On the left you have, you know, we this very moral group of people. we are bringing about the revolution of anti-colonialism, anti-Zionism. And the only thing stopping us are these colonialist Zionists, which is a polite way of saying Jews. And so, you know, I think it's very important to understand, as Yossi Klein Halevi, the journalist, puts it, you know, what you see again and again is whatever is the worst thing in a society, that is what the Jews are deemed to be. Whatever is the worst thing among a particular population, that is what the Jews are deemed to be. And I think we're kind of seeing that on both the right and the left today.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

If antisemitism defines so much, or has defined so much of Jewish identity, how do we reclaim that? How have you reclaimed that? And how have you found joy in your Jewish identity, especially after doing this book and immersing yourself and all of this extremely depressing perspective?

Sarah Hurwitz:  

I hear this kind of line among many Jews that breaks my heart. It's this sort of self-flagellation, of like, if we just had the right PR campaign, if we just had the right tweet, then we would fight antisemitism. It's our fault, we're doing such a bad job fighting antisemitism. And, you know, I love the ambition there. I think that is so sweet. 

But there are 16 million of us in the whole world. That's with an M, million, like the size of like, the fifth largest city in China. We are a Chinese city. There are billions of people who don't really love us out there. And the idea that we, this tiny group of people, is going to somehow change the minds of billions of people. I really respect the ambition, but I think that's a tough one. 

I think it's sort of like trying to bail out a tsunami with buckets. You know, if enough of us do it, I'm sure we can make a difference. And I have such respect for the people who are doing that work. I think it's very important. But I also would just suggest that maybe we should put a little more of our energy into building an ark to weather the storm. 

And you know, to me, that ark is, engaging deeply with our traditions. It's reclaiming, I think, some of what we lost when we were assimilating and trying to fit in. You know, we have thousands of years of text that have such wisdom about the human condition, about how to be a good person and lead a worthy life and find profound spiritual connection. We have just so many beautiful traditions. And so I think that what we can really do is, we can be Jews. And to be a Jew has always been to be different. 

That was kind of our value proposition thousands of years ago when we came along and said, hey guys, monotheism. Totally different way of thinking. We said, hey, every human being is created in the image of God, which is an idea that every human being is infinitely worthy. Which, again, this is the idea that underlies things like liberalism, democracy, human rights. These are really Earth-shatteringly different counter cultural ideas, and we have so many more of those that I still think the world needs today. 

So I think that rather than just being anti-anti-semites, that we can be proud Jews instead, and we can really focus on becoming more learned, more vibrant members of our communities, you know, engaging in more of our traditions and our rituals. 

I also think, you know, Dara Horn has been doing a lot of great work about educating kids about Jewish civilization. Rather than having young people only know about the Jews via the Holocaust, she really wants to teach young people about Jewish civilization, ideas, and people. I think that is a very, very powerful and very helpful idea.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

So how are you doing this? How do you spend each week? How do you reclaim some of these traditions and joy?

Sarah Hurwitz:   

For me, it's studying. That's really how I engage, you know, I have various chavrutas or I study Jewish texts. I love reading Jewish books, and I love participating in the Jewish community. You know, I love engaging with various Jewish organizations, you know, serving on various committees, and just trying to be part of this project of reclaiming Judaism, of making it more accessible to more Jews. This is what I love doing, and I'll be starting in January. I'm actually going to be starting a rabbinic program at the Hartman Institute. It's a part time program. 

And I'm not not planning to be a congregational rabbi, but I do want to keep writing books, and I am really grateful for this opportunity to get a much deeper, more thorough Jewish education than the one I've kind of given to myself, and, you know, kind of cobbled together. I think this is going to be a really extraordinary opportunity. So I'm very excited about that. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

Oh, wow. Well, congratulations. I look forward to welcoming you back to the podcast and calling you Rabbi. 

Sarah Hurwitz:

Thank you.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

Thank you so much for joining us, Sarah.

Sarah Hurwitz: 

Such a pleasure. Thank you for having me. 

As the school year kicks off, Adam Louis-Klein shares his unexpected journey from researching the Desano tribe in the Amazon to confronting rising antisemitism in academic circles after October 7. He discusses his academic work, which explores the parallels between indigenous identity and Jewish peoplehood, and unpacks the politics of historical narrative. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• The Forgotten Exodus: Untold stories of Jews who left or were driven from Arab nations and Iran

• People of the Pod: 

• Latest Episodes: 

• War and Poetry: Owen Lewis on Being a Jewish Poet in a Time of Crisis

• An Orange Tie and A Grieving Crowd: Comedian Yohay Sponder on Jewish Resilience

• From Broadway to Jewish Advocacy: Jonah Platt on Identity, Antisemitism, and Israel

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Transcript of the Interview:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Adam Louis-Klein is a PhD candidate in anthropology at McGill University, where he researches antisemitism, Zionism, Jewish peoplehood, and broader questions of indigeneity and historical narrative. His work bridges academic scholarship and public commentary, drawing on field work with indigenous communities in the Amazon and studies in philosophy at Yale, The New School and the University of Chicago. 

He writes on translation and the politics of peoplehood across traditions, and is committed to developing a Jewish intellectual voice grounded in historical depth and moral clarity. He blogs for The Times of Israel, and he's with us today to talk about his experience emerging from the Amazon, where he was doing research after October 7, 2023, and discovering what had happened in Israel.

Adam, welcome to People of the Pod.

Adam Louis-Klein:  

Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here on this podcast with the American Jewish community.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So tell us about the research that you are doing that took you into the depths of the Amazon rainforest.

Adam Louis-Klein:  

So I work with a group called the Desano people who live in the Vaupés region, which is a tributary of the upper Rio Negro. Part of it's in Brazil, part of it's in Colombia today. I went there because I was really interested in trying to understand how people were often seen at the margins of the world, the periphery of the global economy. See themselves and their own sort of role in the cosmos and in the world in general. 

And what I found actually is that these people see themselves at the center of it all, as a unique people, as a chosen people. And that was something that really inspired me, and later led me to rethink my own relationship to Jewish peoplehood and chosenness, and what it means to be a kind of indigenous people struggling for survival and recognition.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So were you raised Jewish? Did you have a Jewish upbringing?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

Yeah, I was raised as kind of a cultural and reform Jew. I wouldn't say that Israel was super present in our lives, but we did travel there for my younger brother's Bar Mitzvah at the Kotel, and that did have an impression on me. And then later on, I wear a wristband of Brothers for Life, which is a charity for injured Israeli soldiers. But as time went on, I got involved in these radical academic scenes. 

And you know, my own field, anthropology, has fundamentally turned against Jewish peoplehood and Israel, unfortunately. But it was really in the Amazon, actually, that my journey of Teshuvah and rediscovering my Jewishness and the importance of Jewish peoplehood was really re-awoken for me.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You were involved in these radical circles. Did you ascribe to some of the beliefs that a lot of your academic colleagues were ascribing to? Did you start to question the legitimacy of Israel or the actions of the Israeli government? 

Adam Louis-Klein:  

I think I started to ascribe to them in a kind of background and passive way. In the way that I think that many people in these communities do. So I had actually learned about Israel. I did know something. But as I wanted to kind of ascribe to a broader social justice narrative, I sort of immediately assumed when people told me, that Israelis were the ones doing the oppression and the injustice, that that had to be true. And I didn't question it so much. 

So it's ironic that those spaces, I think, that are built around critical thought, have become spaces, in my opinion, that are not so critical today. And I think we really need a critical discourse around this kind of criticism, sort of to develop our own critical discourse of what anti-Zionism is today.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what inspired the research? In other words, so you're involved in these radical circles, and then you go and immerse yourself with these tribes to do the research. What inspired you to do it, and was it your Jewishness?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

So I think what led me to anthropology was probably a kind of diasporic Jewish sensibility. So I'd studied philosophy before, and I was very entrenched in the Western tradition. But I was kind of seeking to think across worlds and think in translation. I've always kind of moved between countries and cities, and I think that's always been an intuitive part of who I am as a Jew. 

And anthropology was founded by Jews, by Franz Boas, Emile Durkheim, Claude Lévi-Strauss, so I think that's kind of part of what brought me there. But I ended up rediscovering also the meaning of, you know, homeland as well, and what it means to be part of a people with a unique destiny and relationship to territory and land. And that made me understand Zionism in a completely new light.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And did you understand it when you were there? Did you come to these realizations when you were there, or did you start to piece all of that together and connect the dots after you emerged?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

So part of my research looks at how indigenous people engage with Christian missionaries who try and translate the Bible into indigenous languages. So when that encounter happens, it's actually quite common throughout the world, that a lot of indigenous people identify with the Jewish people quite strongly. So this might sound a little counterintuitive, especially if someone's used to certain activist networks in which indigeneity is highly associated with Palestinians, Jews are treated now as settler colonists, which is basically the opposite of indigeneity.

And that's become a kind of consensus in academia, even though it seems to fly in the face of both facts and our own self understanding as Jews. So I saw that in the Amazon, in the way people at the margins of the world who might not already be integrated in the academic, activist kind of scene, sort of organically identify with the Jewish people and Israel. 

And they admire the Jewish people and Israel, because they see in us, a people that's managed to maintain our cultural identity, our specific and distinct civilization, while also being able to use the tools of modernity and technology to benefit us and to benefit the world. So I think that also kind of disrupts some primitivist notions about indigenous people, that they should remain sort of technologically backwards, so to speak. I think that they have a more nuanced approach.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I guess, what did you discover when you did emerge from the Amazon? In other words, October 7 had happened. When did you emerge and how did you find out?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

So I'd been living in a remote Desano village without internet or a phone or any connection to the outside world for months. And then I returned a couple days after October 7 to a local town, so still in the Amazon, but I was signing onto my computer for the first time in months, and I remember signing onto Facebook and I saw the images of people running from the Nova Festival.

And that was the first thing that I saw in months from the world. So that was a very traumatic experience that sort of ruptured my sense of reality in many ways, but the most difficult thing was seeing my intellectual milieu immediately transform into a space of denial or justification or even just straightforward aggression and hate to anyone who showed any solidarity with Israelis in that moment, or who saw it as a moment to to say something positive and inspiring and helpful about the Jewish people. That was actually seen as an act of violence. 

So I went to Facebook, and I don't remember exactly what I said, I stand with the Jewish people, or with Israelis, or Am Yisrael Chai, or something like that. And many people in my circles, really interpreted that as an aggression. So at that point, it was really strange, because I'd been living in the Amazon, trying to help people with their own cultural survival, you know, their own struggle to reproduce their own civilization in the face of assimilation and surrounding society that refuses to validate their unique identity. And then I came back to the world, and I was seeing the exact same thing happening to my own people. 

And even stranger than that, it was happening to my own people, but in the language of critique and solidarity. So the very language I'd learned in anthropology, of how to support indigenous people and sort of to align myself with their struggles was now being weaponized against me in this kind of horrible inversion of reality.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Had you sensed this aggressive tone prior to your time in the Amazon and when you were involved with these circles?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

No, I'd never witnessed anything like this in my life, and so it took some real searching and going inward, and I was still in the jungle, but encountering all this anti-Zionist hate online from people I thought were my friends. And I had to really ask myself, you know, maybe I'm in the wrong, because I've never seen people act like . . .  people who are scholars, intellectuals who should be thinking critically about antisemitism. Because antisemitism, you know, we talk a lot about in the academy, critical race theory. So we look at ideologies, tropes, and symbols that are used to dehumanize minority groups, and we learn to be skeptical. 

So we learn that there are discourses that speak at times, in languages of reason, of justice, even that are actually biased, structurally biased, against minorities. So then I was deeply confused. Why did these same people not know how to apply those same analytics to Jews? And not only did they not know how, they seemed to think it was offensive to even try. So that was really strange, and I had to kind of think, well, you know, maybe I'm wrong, you know, I think there's a process of they've attempted to sort of stabilize this consensus at such a degree. That Israel is committing genocide, that Israel is a settler colonial entity that is fundamentally evil, basically. And Israelis are fundamentally oppressors. They've created a space it's almost impossible to question them. 

And it took me a long time to emerge and to come to that realization that I think anti-Zionism is really a discourse of libel, fundamentally.

And these accusations, I wouldn't say, are offered in good faith. And it's unfortunately, not much use to try and refute them. And so instead, I started writing, and I started trying to analyze anti-Zionism itself as an object of critique and as an ideology that we can deconstruct.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So did this change the course of your academic research? In other words, you said you started writing, are you writing academic articles, or is it more The Times of Israel blog and your more public writings?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

So I've been writing publicly. I started writing on Facebook, and then the readership on Facebook started to grow, and then I sent it to the Times of Israel. And I do have some plans lined up to try and get this material out in the academic context as well. Because I think that's really important, that we build parallel academic spaces and our own language of academic legitimacy. Because I think that academic language, and as well, that kind of activist language, critique of oppression is valuable, but it's also culturally hegemonic today.

And so I think that as Jews, if we abandon that language, we will have trouble telling our story. So I think there are also projects like this. I'd like to mention the London Center for the Study of contemporary antisemitism. I think that's a great model. So they're doing serious academic work on contemporary antisemitism, not just classical antiSemitism, which we're all familiar with, Neo Nazis, etc. You know, what does it look like today? You know, red triangles, Hamas headbands. This is a new language of hate that I think we need to be on top of.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In fact, you presented a paper recently, there, correct, at the London Center, or at a conference sponsored by the London Center?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

Yeah, I did. I presented a paper. It was called the Dissolving the Denotational Account of Antisemitism. So denotational means, what words refer to. Because what I found very often is that it's a trope that's become really familiar now. Anti-Zionists, they say, we don't hate Jews, we only hate Zionists. We don't hate Judaism, we hate Zionism. We're not antisemitic, we're critical of Israel. 

So these distinctions that are made are all about saying, you can't point to us as attacking Jews, because our language is such that we are denoting we are referring to something else. So in my talk, I was trying to explain that I like look at anti-Zionism more like a symbolic anthropologist. So when an anthropologist goes and works with an indigenous culture, we look at the kinds of symbols that they use to articulate their vision of the world. The Jaguar, for example, becomes a symbol of certain kinds of potency or predation, for example.

So I look at anti-Zionism in the same way. It's not important to me whether they think they're referring to Israel or Jews. What's important to me is the use of conspiratorial symbols, or a symbol of child killing, for example. So we see that classical antisemitism accused Jews of killing children. Anti-Zionism today constructs Israelis as bloodthirsty and desiring to kill children. So when we see that, we see that even if they say not Jews, Zionists, they're using similar symbols that have mutated. So I think that's what I'm trying to track, is both the mutation of classical antisemitism into anti-Zionism, and also the continuities between the two.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Did you ever experience antisemitism from your academic circles or really anywhere in life through from childhood on?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

Not particularly. So I went to a northeastern prep school, and we were, there were very few Jews, so I think we were sort of seen as another to the kind of traditional northeast New England aristocracy. But it wasn't something that overt, I would say. I think that antisemitism is something that occurs more so in cycles. So if you look at the 19th century, emancipation of Jews and integration of Jews into society, that was the up part of the cycle, and then the reaction to that came on the down part of the cycle. So unfortunately, I think we're in the same thing today. 

So Jews have very successfully assimilated into American society and became very successful and integrated into American society. But now we're seeing the backlash. And the backlash is taking a new form, which is anti-Zionism, which allows itself to evade what classical antisemitism looks like, and what we're used to identifying as classical antisemitism.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I do want to talk about the word indigenous or indigeneity. Jews celebrate the creation of Israel as a return to their indigenous homeland, and Palestinians also consider it their indigenous homeland. So how are their definitions of indigeneity, how are those definitions different or distinct? I mean, how are their experiences distinct from each other's and from the people and the tribes with whom you immersed yourself in the Amazon?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

So I think indigeneity, in its fundamental meaning, captures something very real that's common to tons of different groups across the world. Which is a certain conception of the way that one's genealogical ancestry is connected to a specific territory where one emerged as a people, and through which one's own peoplehood  is defined. So as Jews, our own peoplehood is connected to the land of Israel. It's the Promised Land, it's the place where our civilization first flourished, and it's the place we've always looked to return to. And so that is very similar to indigenous groups around the world. 

Now, at the same time, I think there's another concept of indigeneity that gets thrown in and sometimes confuses the issue a little bit, and that's that being indigenous relates to a specific history of dispossession, usually by European colonialism, starting in the 16th century. Now, in fact, there have been many colonialism throughout history. So there have been Islamic civilization practiced widespread colonialism. The Romans practiced colonialism. The Babylonians. But there is a tendency to only look at this form of colonialism. 

And now when we look at the Middle East, what we find then is these analytics are becoming confused and applied in strange ways. So we see that Palestinians, for example, their genealogical traditions, they understand themselves as tribally derived from tribes in Arabia that expanded with Muhammad's conquest, and that's very common. And Arabian culture and Arabic language is what they practice. 

And so at that level, from a factual perspective, Palestinians are not indigenous in the genealogical sense. However, there's a tendency to believe, since Jews have a state today, then since they appear not as dispossessed, because Jews have actually repossessed our ancestral land, that Jews can't be indigenous. But so I think that's a confusion. The basic understanding of what indigenous means, and largely what the UN definition is based on, is this notion of continuous identification with the territory. 

So I really think that this isn't so much a question of who can live where. I think Palestinians' right to live in the land has largely been recognized by the UN Partition Plan in 1947, or the Oslo Accords, and other peace deals, but it's a question of conceptual clarity and fact. And so at this level, I believe that the UN and other institutions should formally recognize Jews as indigenous to the land of Israel.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You have written, and I want to read this line, because it's so rich you have written that the recursive logic of an antiSemitic consensus builds upon itself, feeds on moral certainty, and shields its participants from having to ask whether what they are reproducing is not justice at all, but a new iteration of a very old lie. I. So are there other examples of that phenomenon in academia, either currently or in the past?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

So what I was trying to grasp with that was my sense of despair in seeing that it was impossible to even point to people, point people to fact within academia, or debate these issues, or explain to non Jews who Jews even are. So I got the sense that people are talking quite a lot about Jews, but don't seem to really care about our voices. 

So some of that writing that you're quoting is an attempt to understand anti Zionism, not just not only as libel, but also as a kind of practice of exclusion, where Jews feel silenced in spaces. And where, where for all the talk of Academic Freedom versus antisemitism, which I think can sometimes be a tricky issue, I believe that Jews own academic freedom has fundamentally been violated by this discourse so that recursive logic is the way rumor and repeating slogans and repeating notions, regardless of their factual content, like the Jews or settler colonists, sort of builds on itself, as well as on social media, with this algorithmic escalation until it's almost impossible to talk back to it. 

So an example would be in 2024 the American Anthropological Association had its big conference, and the Gaza genocide was the main theme. But it wasn't a theme we were all going to go and debate. It was a theme that we assumed was true, and we were going to talk about it as a thing in the world, and then the Society for cultural anthropology released an issue with the exact same premise. 

It was glorifying Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas and Nasrallah of Hezbollah. And then, interestingly enough, just the other day, they released another edition, which was about settler colonialism, and saying, We want to come back to this issue and and reaffirm that settler colonialism applies to Israel and Palestine against people who are attacking the concept, and we're against the exceptionalization of Israel in their terms. 

And so I searched through the document, but I couldn't find anywhere where Jews were talked about as indigenous, not even as a fact, but even as a claim. I couldn't find anywhere in this journal where Jew it was even acknowledged that Jews might believe that we are indigenous. So it's almost as if the very notion is just completely erased by consciousness within academia. Which is quite frightening.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And do you feel able to push back on that. In other words, as a fellow anthropologist, are you able to ask, why is this omitted from this paper, from this journal?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

No, because they will simply ignore you. So that's why I believe these parallel spaces are so important and what I see my work trying to do is to help build a Jewish intellectual discourse. And unfortunately, I think we have to start a little bit internally. So we've been somewhat ghettoized. 

But if we build up that space, and construct these spaces where we have, where we can share the same premises and we don't have to argue from the bottom up every time. I think that will give us strength and also more clarity on our own understanding of what's happening. You know, both of the level of what is anti-Zionism, what is this new discourse? And at the level of, how can we speak from Jewish peoplehood as a legitimate place to even theorize from or build academic theories from.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You mentioned earlier that you held on to doubt. You kept open the possibility that Israel is in the wrong here, and you were watching for, looking for signs or evidence that your colleagues were correct. But as you've watched the horrors unfold, and wondered to yourself whether maybe Israel isn't really defending itself, why have you not concluded that that is indeed the case? Why have you reached the opposite conclusion?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

Yeah, so I talked earlier about using, like a critical race theory analysis, so thinking about ideologies and the kind of tropes they're using and the way they're talking about Israelis, but I think that's only one part of the picture. So what I noticed is, one, they didn't want to do that kind of analysis, but two, they also weren't interested in empirical fact. So when I would sometimes try and do that analysis like this. This sounds like antisemitic, right? They would say, oh, but it's true. Israel is doing this stuff. Israel is intentionally killing Palestinian children. Israel is going completely beyond the laws of war. This is a genocide of unique proportions. Completely irrational and exaggerated statements. 

They also didn't want to engage with fact. I spent a lot of time digging up the sources of this material, given disinformation. For example, the Al-Ahli incident, where it was claimed by the Hamas health ministry that Israel had intentionally bombed the Al-Ahli hospital, killing 500 people. Al Jazeera promoted it. Western outlets also promoted it, and I had people all over my wall attacking me, saying that I'm justifying this by standing with Israel. And I saw what happened after, which was that they looked into it. The casualty count was tragic, but it was far lower than reported. It was about 50 people, and it was an Islamic Jihad rocket, so Israel was not even responsible. 

So I think that any rational person who sees what happened in that incident becomes skeptical of everything else they're being told and of the information circuits. And so when I also saw that the people who were talking about the Gaza genocide, weren't seemed completely unfazed by that. That made me have to rethink also what they were doing, because if they're unfazed by something like that, that suggests this isn't a truth that they're being forced to acknowledge, it sounds a bit more like a truth that has its own sort of incentive to believe in despite fact, rather than being pushed towards it because of fact.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I'm curious, if you went back to the people that you had been immersed with and had been studying for the matter of months before October 7, did you go back to them and tell them what had happened, or did they somehow know what had happened? And I'm just curious if there was any kind of response from them?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

Interesting. Yeah, I speak with them regularly, on a regular basis. They don't know exactly what's happened. I think they see sometimes news, but it's largely their understanding, is that there's a lot of wars in the Western world. And they ask why? Why is there so much war? Why is there so much suffering? 

I mean, they were particularly interested in in the Ukraine war, because they couldn't wrap their head around why Putin was doing this, which I think is pretty similar to a lot of people, but they do see, some of them see Israel as kind of, you know, a figure of strength, and compare Israel almost to their own notions of ancestral, sort of potency or power. So they have a very different understanding of the relationship between, let's say, power and victimhood. They don't necessarily fetishize being powerless.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Tell me a little bit about this tribe, these people that you spent time with. 

Adam Louis-Klein:

So the Desano there, they're one of a number of many ethnicities who inhabit the Northwest Amazonian region in northwest Brazil and southeast Columbia. They live in an extremely complex world in which there are over 25 languages in the region. And they have a very unique form of marriage, where you have to marry someone who speaks a different language than you. And so any community has a kind of nucleus of people who speak the same language, and they're from the same tribe. But the women in the community all speak different languages and come from different tribes. 

So I think it's a kind of space where you have to think across difference. You're constantly confronted with people who are other than you, who are from different tribes and different communities, as well as the relationship between the Western world and the indigenous world itself. And I think that's really part of the promise of anthropology, like coming back to what I was saying earlier about a diasporic Jewish sensibility, I think it's also just a Jewish sensibility. Part of being a distinct people is that we need to think with other people, and I think that includes Muslims and Arabs and Christians as well.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

That is such an enlightened approach that they have taken to marriage. Isn't that what marriage is all about, crossing those differences and figuring out and they just do it from the very beginning. And I'm also curious, though, are they also mixing with Western cultures. In other words, have they broadened that, or do they keep it within those villages?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

Yeah, so they've taken on a lot of features of the surrounding, Colombian Spanish language culture, and that is the struggle today. Because there's a lot of economic pressures to move to the towns and the cities in order to get work and employment. And that can pose problems to the reproduction of the traditional village community. 

And so that's part of what we've been struggling with and part of the project with them. So we're currently translating an old book about anthropology, about them into their language, so they have the Bible, which was translated into the language by missionaries. And now we also want to translate their own cultural material into their language so that can help them preserve the language and preserve their own cultural knowledge.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what's next for you, Adam?

Adam Louis-Klein:  

So I'm hoping to continue writing and to continue getting out this work. I'm hoping to also work with grassroots organizers to try to put some activist meat onto this opposition to anti-Zionism. So I believe that, as I was talking about parallel academic spaces are really important, I also think it's important to be able to speak back to anti-Zionism with activist language.

Not only the academic side, but the activist side. So I'm working with the group now, a decentralized group, developing infographics, memes, things that can circulate to educate people about anti-Zionism as the new form of antisemitism today.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Thank you for taking on this work and for sharing your story.

Adam Louis-Klein:  

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.

In the aftermath of the slaughter of 11 Jews inside the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh, the deadliest antisemitic attack in U.S. history, American Jewish Committee (AJC) drew up a plan to galvanize Jewish communities and their allies across the world in an expression of unity and defiance: #ShowUpForShabbat. The campaign, which reached hundreds of millions of people, urged those of all faiths to attend synagogue services during the Shabbat following the attack to show solidarity with the Jewish community.

In this third episode of our Remembering Pittsburgh series, hear from some of those who showed up to that Shabbat five years ago on what the experience meant to them and how the events of that week altered their perspective on antisemitism in America.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Belle Yoeli, Anne Jolly, Rachel Ain, Sharif Street, Jennifer Mendelsohn

Show Notes:

Listen:

• Remembering Pittsburgh Part 1: Behind the Scenes at the Reimagined Tree of Life

• Remembering Pittsburgh Part 2: What the Family of Tree of Life Victim Joyce Fienberg Wants You to Know About Her Legacy

Take Action:

• Urge Congress to Stand Against Rising Antisemitism

Music credits:

• Shloime Balsam - Lo Lefached

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Episode Transcript:

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

This month, AJC set out to mark the five-year anniversary of the Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooting at the Tree of Life with a series of episodes exploring this turning point for the American Jewish community. Our first installment aired October 5. Two days later, the Jewish people faced another unprecedented deadly antisemitic attack, this time in Israel. Synagogues stepped up security and families tamped down their fears to take their children to Hebrew school or attend Shabbat services. In the second episode of our series, we sat down with Howard and Marnie Fienberg, who paid tribute to their mother Joyce. In this third installment, we look back at how horror drew people to solidarity. May we see that same solidarity today. 

Belle Yoeli: We saw hundreds of thousands of people show up. And we saw pictures later, after the fact, and videos, and people making speeches, and just so much solidarity. This was captured on the news. I think it really stands out as one of the most amazing responses to antisemitism that we've seen in modern history.

Manya Brachear Pashman: On October 27, 2018, Americans witnessed the deadliest antisemitic attack in this nation's history. Eleven worshipers inside the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh were murdered just for being Jewish. The senseless slaughter inside a house of worship devastated and shocked American senses because it was simply unAmerican. But the aftermath of the atrocity became an American moment when so many people showed up – showed up with hugs, showed up with flowers, showed up with prayers for their Jewish neighbors. 

The most visible expression of this came a week after the massacre with the unprecedented turnout of people of all faiths at synagogues across the nation as part of AJC's #ShowUpForShabbat campaign. Together, Americans sent a message that hate will not prevail.

Belle Yoeli: Everyone wanted to do something, and the entire Jewish community mobilized to make this happen with the understanding that as AJC has always said that antisemitism is not just about the Jewish community. It starts with the Jewish community, but it's a threat to democracy, and the murder of Jews in their religious institution is such a breaking, a fracturing of everything that the United States stands for, everything that democratic society stands for.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Today, Belle Yoeli is the chief advocacy officer for AJC. In 2018, she worked as the chief of staff for then AJC CEO David Harris. David had spent nearly 20 years counseling European leaders on the rise of antisemitism in their midst, calling their attention to violent crimes against Jews when conflict erupted between Israel and their Arab neighbors.

Belle was on her way to a nephew's birthday party when she got the call on October 27 about what had happened in Pittsburgh. She remembers sobbing in the car on the phone with colleagues as they all grappled with the reality that whether they were regular shul-goers or had just happened to go to synagogue to celebrate a friend's bar mitzvah that day – it just as easily could've been them. For many, what they needed now was to go to shul and not be afraid, and to see others, not just their own community, but others of all faiths in the pews alongside them. What they needed most now was to know they were not alone. So they drew up a plan.

Belle Yoeli: A couple members of our staff actually kind of simultaneously came up with a similar idea, which was that we need to, more than anything, rally non-Jews to come and support the Jewish community at this time, and what better time to do that than the following Shabbat.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Dubbed #ShowUpForShabbat, the social media-based campaign called on both Jews and those of other faiths to flock to synagogues that coming Shabbat on the weekend of November 2 in support of the Pittsburgh Jewish community and all of American Jewry. The response across 80 countries was astounding.

More than 250 million people spread the message on social media, including celebrities Andy Cohen, Itzhak Perlman, and Mayim Bialik, and politicians Paul Ryan, Kamala Harris, and Sadiq Kahn.

And hundreds of synagogues across the country and around the world, from Tokyo to Santiago to London to San Francisco, welcomed people of all faiths into their sanctuaries. Those who walked through the doors included diplomats from dozens of countries, federal, state, and local elected officials, and Christian, Muslim, Hindu clergy. Synagogues across the country reported massive crowds rivaling or exceeding those seen at High Holy Day services.

Belle Yoeli: There are some times, I think before Pittsburgh, and before Tree of Life and after, where the Jewish community doesn't always feel like we are seen, and that we need defense too. When it comes to antisemitism, because Jews are viewed as white or for other reasons, or when it comes to us attacks against Israel, we don't feel like our partners are necessarily always there for us, although many are. Seeing with such clarity how people were showing up for the Jewish community, we all really needed that. And honestly, society needed that and to see that. That we will not let this stand.

I think it shook everyone to their core and not just the Jewish community. That's what struck a chord with people that could have been me, that could have been hatred towards African Americans, that could have been hatred towards the Muslim community. Every single community who has a piece of them, an identity that's so strong resonated with that.

Manya Brachear Pashman: We connected with people who showed up that Shabbat five years ago, and asked them what the experience meant to them, whether the events of that week altered their perspective on antisemitism in America, or changed how they show support to their Jewish neighbors.

Anne Jolly: An important part of what we proclaim is love God, love your neighbor, change the world. And so we believe that means we show up for each other. We can't love each other without being present with each other. So we have to be together. You have to show up.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Episcopal Bishop of Ohio Anne Jolly was serving as the rector of St. Gregory Episcopal Church in Deerfield, Illinois in October 2018. A former hospital chaplain, she was sitting in her office when she heard the news break that Saturday morning. Her first call was to her friend and colleague Rabbi Karyn Kedar down the road at the Reform temple commonly known as Congregation BJBE. Rabbi Kedar had recently preached at St. Gregory and then-Pastor Jolly was scheduled to deliver the guest sermon at BJBE the following Friday night.

Anne Jolly: I called her and we talked and we prayed. And I said to Karyn, I think probably you need to preach on the Shabbat following the shooting at your temple and she said, 'I want you to do it.' She said 'I think I think we need to hear your voice and that the congregation needs to hear you.

Rabbi Kedar I think thought that to hear a voice of someone who is not Jewish saying aloud, We love you, we care for you. We believe we are all created in God's image together. And that means we need to show up for each other. It means we need to be present with each other, that to hear that from someone who was not part of their community might be more powerful, more impactful, and more important for the community here at that time.

Manya Brachear Pashman: When Bishop Jolly arrived that following Friday she did not expect her sudden sense of fear when she encountered armed guards.

Anne Jolly: I didn't realize I was afraid until I walked in the door. And I stopped and had to take a deep breath and realize that I was afraid because I was entering into a space of people who have long been afraid. And that I had never had to experience that before in that way. And I wasn't really afraid for my congregation the same way I was for my beloveds in the synagogue, that they had more of a reason to be afraid than I did. And that was all the more reason for me to be there, and to be present with them.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Bishop Jolly credits that night at BJBE for the deep connection that formed with the congregation. In fact, she returned to BJBE many more times to celebrate Shabbat. Precisely a year later, the members of the Jewish congregation showed up at her door after a pumpkin patch at St. Gregory had been destroyed by vandals.

Anne Jolly: There were a bunch of them that came to our patch and we were talking about it and they said, 'We just wanted to show you that we are supporting you. And they were worried that that vandalism had been an act of aggression against us. And I just thought it was kids. And that was a really clear distinction of how our worldviews are different. For them, a vandalism thing would, of course, of course, be something hateful against them. In this case, it was children, it was just teenagers being dumb. But it reinforced that understanding that for them, fear is always in the background because of the violence perpetrated to them – again and again and again.

Rabbi Rachel Ain: It was not a wake-up call that hate existed and already the hate was being felt. And at the same time, the love with my neighbors was being felt. So I was able to hold on to both emotions. But really, as I look back at these five years. Pittsburgh to Poway to Colleyville to Jersey City. I mean, I can sort of think back to all of these moments. It's here. And we need to both be proudly Jewish, and strongly protected.

Manya Brachear Pashman: For Rabbi Rachel Ain, the spiritual leader of Sutton Place Synagogue, a conservative synagogue in New York City, the massacre at Tree of Life was not her first encounter with antisemitism. She knew it was simmering. A year earlier, almost to the day, vandals had spray painted swastikas across the entrance of her synagogue on the East Side of Manhattan. She knew how powerful it had been to have members of the wider community come support the congregation after that incident. Whether to invite members of the community to #ShowUpForShabbat was never a question in her mind.

Rabbi Rachel Ain: It's not only that I felt supported by my neighbors, especially those that weren't Jewish. But more than anything, it was that so many of our congregation members who were not, let's say Shabbat regulars, felt the importance and the value of showing up for Shabbat and they knew that they had an address to come to both physically and spiritually to place their pain and their needs.

Manya Brachear Pashman: That same weekend marked the bar mitzvah celebration of a young man in the congregation. Rabbi Ain wrestled with how to balance the sadness and shock of the prior weekend with the joy and celebration of his milestone. And a few years later, that same young man and his brother stepped up to lead the synagogue's Holocaust Remembrance event, in which teens interviewed the children of Holocaust survivors and shared the stories that have been passed down to them. She wonders if that moving show of solidarity when he was 13 and the formational years that followed had an impact.

Rabbi Rachel Ain: What I really keep thinking about is how some of our teenagers who at that point, were in sixth grade or seventh grade. And now here they are seniors in high school and freshmen in college, how their teen experience has been shaped by showing up for Shabbat and showing up for shul when bad things have happened. So what I've also tried to do is, how do we ensure that our young people's experiences aren't only about the challenges of being Jewish, but the joys of being Jewish?

Sharif Street: I just remember the massive amount of people that showed up and the diversity of the folks. I mean, I don't think I'd seen that many people show up for an evening Shabbat at Rodef Shalom in, well, maybe ever."

Manya Brachear Pashman: Pennsylvania State Sen. Sharif Street had been in Pittsburgh the day before the shooting at the Tree of Life building. When he heard the news that Saturday morning, he scrambled to find out if his friends and colleagues were OK. He was not oblivious to hatred and its potential to lead to violence. His father had been active in the civil rights movement and Sen. Street had sponsored legislation to curb hate crimes, but he had hoped to get ahead of the trend. This seemed unfathomable.

Sharif Street: I didn't really contemplate that in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, it was within the realm of reasonable possibility that someone was gonna walk into a synagogue, and commit such a vicious, horrible act of hate. I didn't see that."

I thought we had moved beyond that stage of antisemitism and bigotry. And I was reminded of what my friends, older folks, and black and Jewish community always said, which is, we have to remain constantly vigilant. Because these things have a way of coming back.

It took on a new air, a new level of seriousness to me. Because this is not the idea that people could be killed because of antisemitism in America. It's not just something of a bygone era. But I realized we were living in that era today.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Sen. Street accompanied a friend to Temple Rodef Sholom in Philadelphia a week later and he has a few indelible memories from that night. 

Sharif Street: People from every walk of life. Some people who were obviously maybe were not Jewish, who just wanted to express their support and their solidarity. And the look on the faces of people who are members, who were just, who felt so troubled, so shaken. And to see all the support from people, I think, made people feel like even in this world that seems so cruel in that moment that there were many people who are good, who stood with them. And I think a lot of times, folks who are doing these kinds of acts of hate and terror want to make folks, in this case Jewish people, feel isolated and alone. And I think that the service allow people to recognize you're not alone. And that people from all walks of life stand with you and stand against these horrible acts of hate.

I think those of us who were, I would say the under-50 crowd and the younger you got, the more there was a level of shock, found it more disturbing because I guess we were further removed from an era when things like this when vicious acts of violence against people for antisemitism, racism and other forms of bigotry were more commonplace. People were wanting to make sure that this is not the beginning of a new chapter. Hopefully in our lifetimes we'll remember this as a disturbing outlier, not the beginning of an era.

Jennifer Mendelsohn: What really struck me about it was how simple it was, all we asked people to do was quite literally show up. You didn't have to wave a protest flag. You didn't have to donate money somewhere. You didn't have to go on a march. It was literally just saying, 'Come be with us this evening. We're hurting. And to have that answered so resoundingly was incredibly inspiring.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Jennifer Mendelsohn helped create the DNA reunion project at the Center for Jewish History, which uses the power of genetic genealogy to reconnect Holocaust survivors and their children to relatives from whom they were separated. While she did not regularly attend Shabbat services, she and her husband thought it was important to show up at Fulton Street Synagogue in Baltimore on November 2, 2018. 

Jennifer Mendelsohn: I walked in, and there's just no way to express what it was like. There were probably 300 people there. And you know, we normally do a potluck dinner. And I looked and there was, you know, there was no room to put down all the food, there was no prayer books, there were people, you know, just packed in. And I remember seeing the faces of neighbors of ours, non Jewish neighbors, and I immediately just got so overcome, and they just sort of smiled at me. And just to know that they had taken the time on a Friday night just to say, we care, and we're here with you. It was unbelievably powerful.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Clergy and congregants from across different religious traditions helped light memorial candles for the 11 victims in Pittsburgh and the congregation sang "We Shall Overcome."

Jennifer Mendelsohn: I feel like every time I go back, I remember how nice it feels to be at synagogue. You always think like, Oh, it's so much easier to just, you know, sit on your couch with your fuzzy slippers. But it's, you know, it's always nice to be there. And all of the rituals are so familiar, you know, lighting candles, and, you know, welcoming the Sabbath bride and all of that, and the songs and it just reminded me that, you know, I'm not a particularly religious person in terms of practice or ritual. But it reminded me that, you know, that's where I come from, those are my people. And it was just very comforting to be in that environment at a time of such tragedy to just be around familiar sounds and smells and sights and all of that."

Manya Brachear Pashman: For Mendelsohn, 2018 had already been fraught and eye-opening, as she had become the target of online antisemitism because of a political project on Twitter. As someone who deals with the Holocaust on a daily basis, her shock surprised her.

Jennifer Mendelsohn: This event sort of crystallized the sense that, you know, antisemitism was still around and perhaps, you know, coming back with a new fearsome edge… It was very hard to fathom. You know you you spend this much time thinking about the Holocaust and dealing with families shattered by genocide that was, you know, spurred by just hatred. And you think, 'Well, surely this will never happen again, because everyone understands, and clearly people don't. So it was a very sobering experience to feel threatened again, as an American Jew.

Manya Brachear Pashman: But #ShowUpForShabbat also crystallized that regardless of ideology, color or creed, most of America stood beside the Jewish community in this moment.

Jennifer Mendelsohn: The crowd inside that synagogue was exactly the America that my ancestors came to the U.S. to be a part of, you know, they escaped political discrimination in Eastern Europe, and that's really for me what it was all about and to reinforce that that America exists that helping, kind, inclusive America, in the face of this horrific act of violence and hatred was just really the balm that my soul needed at that moment.

Join us in a tribute to the memory of Joyce Fienberg, one of the 11 victims of the 2018 shooting at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh. In this touching second installment of our series on the events of 10/27 , we sit down with Joyce's son, Howard Fienberg, and his wife, Marnie, as they share their  journey of mourning and resilience. Joyce was not only a dedicated member of the Tree of Life synagogue but also a retired university researcher, a devoted mother, and grandmother.

Howard and Marnie open up about their extended period of mourning due to trial delays, offering a glimpse into the emotional toll of such a traumatic event. Marnie details how she turned her grief into 2 for Seder, an initiative to honor Joyce and push back against the hate that creates antisemitism.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Howard Fienberg, Marnie Fienberg

Show Notes:

Listen:

• Remembering Pittsburgh Part 1: Behind the Scenes at the Reimagined Tree of Life

Take Action:

• Urge Congress to Stand Against Rising Antisemitism

Music credits:

• Tree of Life by Nefesh Mountain

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Episode Transcript:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

After her husband and mother died in 2016, Joyce Fienberg started each day at Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, to recite Kaddish, the mourner's prayer. Even when she was no longer officially considered a mourner as Jewish tradition prescribes, 11 months, she continued to attend services each morning at the synagogue. 

That's why Howard Feinberg knew his mother Joyce was at Tree of Life when he heard there had been a shooting there on the morning of October 27, 2018. It would be more than 12 hours before he learned she was among the 11 killed that day. 

Howard and his wife Marnie are with us now from their home in Northern Virginia to talk about their prolonged mourning period and how they have held onto and channeled that grief. Howard, Marnie, thank you so much for joining us.

Howard Fienberg:  

Thanks for having us.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Howard, you followed your mother's example and recited kaddish for 11 months. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience? That experience of saying Kaddish and mourning for your mother, and also can you share with our listeners why it felt like the mourning period was extended?

Howard Fienberg:  

I felt a huge amount of support everywhere I went, in order to be able to say Kaddish every day. Which for someone who was not the most observant of Jews, it was a big lift to be able to do that every day. In fact, even when traveling in disparate places, that I could always find, somehow, be able to pull together 10 people to be able to say Kaddish was a big deal. And I wanted to make sure that no one would struggle in similar circumstances as well. 

Obviously, initially, in Pittsburgh putting together 10 people was not a particularly big lift. Because the community support in that first week of Shiva was phenomenal. But it's not an easy thing in many congregations, and I think we are fortunate in mine that we always seem to pull it out every day. But I want to make sure that it happens. So in practice wise, that's one of the biggest things, my involvement with the synagogue, and prayer. 

The broader extension of the mourning period, in a way, was a result of the constant delay of the trial for the monster that committed the massacre. And that was a result of both just the general usual procedural delays that you would expect, combined with COVID excuses that dragged things out during the trial. And once a new judge took over responsibility for this case, things suddenly snapped into gear and it moved forward. And we're particularly grateful for the judge in this case, just for his very no-nonsense approach moving forward.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Can you talk about whether the guilty verdict once it did take place, and a verdict was delivered, how that verdict changed anything for you and your family?

Howard Fienberg:  

It was a matter of relief, to a great extent. I sat through almost the entirety of the trial, heard and saw all of the evidence. A lot more than I expected to and ever wanted to, but I felt duty to do so. From an outside perspective, looking at it all, you would say this is a slam dunk case, lined up for all the federal hate crimes that were involved. And at the same time, I was in doubt until the jury came back and said, all said guilty. It's just the nature of things. I was on pins and needles. Massive relief afterwards and the same thing with the final verdict and sentencing. Massive relief for us and our families. 

And that did allow…nothing's ever closed. You don't finish feeling the loss of somebody, especially when they're taken in, you know, horribly violent terrorist circumstances. But you move from segment to segment. So the same as we do in the year of mourning, you're moving from shiva, which is one kind of thing, to the 30 days, and then to the end of the mourning period. And this was moving to yet another period. And what exactly this is and how long it will be, I don't know. But we're figuring that out as we go. I certainly feel a lot more relaxed.

Marnie Fienberg:

Feels a little lighter.

Howard Fienberg:  

Yes, definitely lighter.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

That's good to hear. That's good to hear. I am curious, you said you felt a duty to listen to those details, even though you didn't want to. Can you explain why you felt that sense of obligation?

Howard Fienberg:  

Part of it is, somebody in our family needed to. And it wasn't something that I wanted everybody to sit and hear and see. And I specifically told friends and family as much as I could, to stay far away and said, as much as you want to know, I'll let you know. But otherwise, it's horrific. And it wasn't anything that I would wish for anybody to see and hear. But at the same time, it's the reality of how my mom died. And what the circumstances were, what was going on with the antisemitic conspiracy theories that drove the monster that killed her. And what did he have in mind, and what was his intention, what did he plan, what did he do? These were important things. 

And the bigger picture, which I didn't even know going in, was the extent to which the police in Pittsburgh were so heroic. And while they were not able to save my mom, they saved other people, including friends of ours, and people who are now friends, who would not be alive if those cops had not tried to charge at the front door trying to charge the building and getting shot. And then the SWAT teams going into the building, and in a couple cases getting almost murdered themselves, trying to rescue the people that were inside. And they did rescue some people. And those people would most likely be dead if the SWAT had not rushed in. Equipment wise, they were not ready ordinarily for this sort of situation. But they went in anyways because they knew they needed to, and they didn't hesitate. And that's the kind of thing that you can only understand, having gone to the trial and learned what went on. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Marnie, I want to turn to you. You quit your job as a federal contractor and started a nonprofit initiative called 2 For Seder. What prompted this sudden shift in your career?

Marnie Fienberg:

Well, I think that I was so upset about what happened with my mother-in-law, I did take a leave of absence initially. And I wanted to volunteer. Being a Jewish woman, and having all this anger and grief and all the support that we had received from people, literally all over the world. I just couldn't sit back and do nothing. So I wanted to do something that was really in honor of Joyce, but also something that would help every single Jewish individual if they so chose to be able to take some small tikun-olam-style action, and push back against the hate that creates antisemitism. And I think 2 For Seder really accomplished that, especially that first year. And we were really on track to grow quite enormously, except for COVID. COVID stopped us in our tracks, because it is about inviting 2 people into your home, who have never been to a Seder before and really educating them and immersing them in that Jewish joy and intimacy that you create every year at Passover. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I'm really curious about the seder connection. Was Joyce known for putting together really elaborate Seders? Was she just always at the Seder table? Why Seders?

Marnie Fienberg:

So this is a two part sort of explanation. So one is the sort of graduation to being allowed to hold the Seder. So my mother-in-law, really for 15 years we actually had done where we started at her house, and I helped her and I learned as we went and then we flipped it. And we came to our house and she would help me and make sure that I was doing things the right way and guiding me the right way. And there's, I mean, there's so much to do, putting on a Seder and trying to of course fit, you know, 30-35 people into a house that really should only have about 20 people in it is, of course, part of the tradition. And she never blinked an eye, it was never too much. 

It was really mostly about making everyone at the table, regardless of their background–she always had students over, she always had people who had no place to go–every single person needed to feel like they were home. So if you had some sort of dietary restrictions, or any sort of an allergy or anything, my mother-in-law would bend over backwards, she bend herself into pretzels to make you feel 100% comfortable. And every single person who ever graced her table felt like they had never been more comfortable before. They felt like they were at their mother's house. And they commented on that many times. It was a wonderful thing. And I have to tell you, it's very hard to live up to. She was one of a kind.

Howard Fienberg:  

If I might add in, part of this comes from looking at photo evidence. I've been going through all of the family photos, last five years, trying to digitize and you can see the progression. So early on, there are pictures of Passover seders that clearly they've invited friends and other professors at the universities, students that were Jewish, they'd invite to Passover on a regular basis. And I think there's a turn somewhere in the early 80s, my brother and I would start inviting our non-Jewish friends to the Passover Seder. 

And probably around about the late 80s was when it became not just bringing in Jews and my brother's friends and my friends who had never been to a Seder, it was their friends and fellow faculty, visiting graduate students from far-flung countries who knew absolutely nothing about Judaism. Certainly nothing about Passover. It was a way for them to have a comfortable introduction to what we're all about. And in all the context that my mother wanted to provide of it being a welcoming taste of being at home.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

We talked about how the Jewish tradition provides the process of formula, you know, the shiva and the 30 day mourning period. But this, the length of time that families have been mourning has been extended, delayed, slowed down. And I'm curious if on top of the Jewish traditions that guide people through the mourning process, if the Jewish community helped fill in some of what was missing, helped comfort you in certain ways?

Marnie Fienberg:

We live in two Jewish communities right now. We live in Northern Virginia, and we have our community here. And then we live in Pittsburgh, in a sense, and we have the community there. And we have been back and forth many times. The community in Pittsburgh, regardless if you were a family member, if you were a member of one of the three synagogues, or if you were a member of the greater community. There were so many ways that there were supports. And even from here we were always invited to participate in them. And some of them were done virtually actually when COVID hit which actually was very helpful for us.

I don't know if the larger Jewish community is aware, but the FBI actually has a whole series of people, an entire division that's just there to support families and the communities that are affected from mass shootings, which also includes a grant to stand up an actual group that that is going to help the community at large. And that's the 10.27 Center for Healing in the Pittsburgh case, and that group is still standing and still running, still helping everyone. 

So there's the Jewish side, where we all still pray together, where we get together for our commemoration once a year, the families always get together in Pittsburgh. And then here in Northern Virginia, there have been a variety of commemorations, but mostly our own local community at our synagogue is extremely supportive. They're, of course, another family to us. And this has only really brought us all closer, which has been wonderful.

Howard Fienberg:  

We've had a lot of different kinds of support structures, I wouldn't identify anything as where there was a failing, other than the broader problem that people thought it was over. The presumption on the part of everyone, when they found out that there was a trial for the monster that killed my mom, was: wasn't that done already?

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I want to ask you both this question, what has given you hope in the last five years?

Howard Fienberg:  

I haven't had the time and strength to go through all of the letters and cards that we received in the month or two after mom was killed. But some of the ones that really impacted me the most, outside of people that we knew, or that knew my parents, I mean, I think we have a whole box of correspondence and cards from people who never met my mother or us. And a lot of those were from non-Jews, who were deeply impacted by this, and were moved. 

I mean, it's one thing that we had large groups of Jews that came to our Shiva, for example, that wanted to be there to support and during the Shiva period. There were groups of students that came from universities outside of Pittsburgh, like Ohio, and from Massachusetts, they wanted to come and be a part of it, and they weren't Jewish. They just, they felt a need to support. And that's the kind of thing that gives me great hope. Part of why we look at projects like 2 For Seder as so important, that it's not just that we're Jewish, and we're other. So I see a great load of hope there. 

But at the same time, the fact that, you know, trailing back to the trial, the fact that the Justice Department was willing to pursue the trial, and not just take a plea bargain, but actually present evidence and pursue a case involving such rampant antisemitism, and lay out the facts and prosecute them. That gives me great hope as well. It's not something that is an easy thing. The most reasonable response on their part probably would have been to, no matter what we wanted, would have been to pursue a plea bargain and make it all go away. Because it's expensive, and it doesn't make anybody feel good. Why would you do it?

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I have to ask, if the trial had happened a century ago, do you think the jury would have reached a guilty verdict? Do you think the prosecution would have pursued the hate crime charges as they did?

Marnie Fienberg:

So there would never have been any hate crime charges. Hate crimes did not enter the American laws until 1964, which is when the Civil Rights Act was enacted. This is why I think that we always need to be so thankful for Martin Luther King Jr. and to be proud that we were part of that. So a century ago, would this have even been considered an anti-Jewish crime, an antisemitic crime? No. 

I think that you can look at Dreyfuss' case and you can say very clearly, this country, this part of the world was not ready for something like that. And they would have looked the other way. Would they have convicted as just a general murder? I don't know, there's a lot of those murders that just disappeared 100 years ago. But would it have been because it was antisemitism? Absolutely not. I would be very, very interested to learn of some other way that that would have happened. But we're very grateful that the same laws under the 1964 Civil Rights Act, that is what this was all held under.

Howard Fienberg:  

And the other angle is that the monster that killed everybody, he killed 11 people, he was not an upstanding part of the community, he did not have a whole segment of the community cheering him on, helping him, encouraging him, protecting him. That's not the way it worked.

And the reactions and the killing of my mom was part of the demonstration of that, that people were horrified and they were supportive of us. And, you know, the Justice Department pursuing the case to the fullest extent of the law, as they should, would that have happened 100 years ago? No, but again, not just because of the lack of statute, but you know, our place in society was not what it is today. And society was not the same. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I know we've sprinkled details about your mother throughout this conversation, but is there anything in particular in there anything in particular that you want listeners to know about Joyce?

Howard Fienberg:  

She twisted herself into knots and did whatever she could to help others, that starts with the rest of the family, and the amount of time and energy that she put toward helping us and helping my brother and sister in law and all of her grandkids, which were a huge focus of her life. The fact that she was able to also shoehorn in a lot of volunteer time at multiple different projects in Pittsburgh, as well as being the connector of our family and multiple sets of families, both email and letters and phone calls on a regular basis. It's an amazing thing that she was able to do that on a daily basis and still sleep and function. Not to mention, make sure that she was at minyan at Tree of Life early every morning. It was an amazing balancing act, y'know, it's a hard thing to pull off.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And she picked up someone each day for minyan as well, right?

Howard Fienberg:  

Yes, so unfortunately, he passed away. Late, late last year. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

May his memory be for a blessing. You know, I should ask, what does that mean to you, when this phrase, May her memory be for a blessing. What does that mean to you when someone says that about your mother? 

Howard Fienberg:  

I generally have an appreciation. Because, not just of what she meant to me, but the recognition from other people of the loss. And for some of them, they understand what that loss means. For others, they don't really, but they're trying to support. I do take comfort in that. I'm not certain that I did, certainly in the first week, I was too shell shocked to be able to appreciate all the people that were saying it to me. But, you know, over time, it makes a big difference. And I appreciate being able to do that for others, even complete strangers. If I'm supporting a minyan at someone's shiva, I like to be able to do that.

Marnie Fienberg:

Joyce was such a gentle, loving and caring person and to have her loss be through such an act of hate is where I think we all struggle. And I think whenever anyone talks to Howard or myself or any of the families about their losses, that they can feel that, that they can feel the shock that these people who just wanted to make the world a little bit better, a little bit of a better place, that they would be taken in such an act of hate, for no reason. I think that being able to say May their memory be a blessing really emphasizes the loss that we feel and the hope that we can fill in this space.

Howard Fienberg:  

And I will say it's very awkward to talk to somebody who's in mourning. Just the nature of it. The fact that we have what almost a rote saying that carries so much weight is a huge benefit. And I deploy it regularly with non-Jews. They're partially taken aback, and they're very touched, because they're used to getting the awkward, Oh, I'm so sorry for your loss, which doesn't make anybody feel particularly good. We can argue about the way Judaism approaches all sorts of things. I happen to think the Jewish way of death, you know, as depressing as it may be to think about, is very practical in a lot of ways. And it's designed to be helpful.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Has the rest of your family embraced that? Have they turned to the Jewish faith to cope with this, to try to make sense of it? 

Howard Fienberg:  

My brother was already what is called traditional in France, traditional Judaism, he embraced that much more fully, and is much more on the Orthodox range than he was before. And that was a huge part for him as well in coping, and coming to grips with our new life, after my mom died. And that is a piece of it for all of the family in different ways. 

One of the positive things along these lines, my brother dedicated a Torah in memory of my parents. And by weird twist of fate, or God's hand, in choosing a date to dedicate that Torah in Pittsburgh, the date happened to land a couple of days before the final sentencing in the Tree of Life trial. So we had just a few days before, this whole ceremony and huge celebration that my brother orchestrated, to not only involve the local community and a huge celebration and things that I've heard about, but never seen. 

People marching in a parade down the street, not far from Tree of Life, to introduce the new Torah to its new synagogue, but also in the final writing of the letters, finishing off the Torah, to be able to include some of the law enforcement officers that were injured in trying to rescue people at Tree of Life, as well as all of the families of the victims and the survivors. That everyone was able to participate from our family and our extended family. It was an amazing sight to behold and the simple fact that it landed right before the sentencing was kind of amazing, because there's this amazing positive outgrowth that you might not have expected. And the fact that it perfectly coincided with the darkness of the trial. It's an amazing thing.

Marnie Fienberg:

He had been planning this for three years. When Howard says that it was an amazing coincidence to bring them both together, to bring the one of the most Jewish things you could possibly do, dedicating a new Torah, creating and dedicating the Torah, right before the sentencing. There was never a plan for that. It just, it just happened.

And it was very healing to the community. But it was also, I mean, the message of the shooter was to stop Judaism, to make us so afraid that we would never go back into the shuls, that we would never go back and be Jewish. And not only in the days right afterwards, where people flocked to go to shul. But this was just one more incredibly powerful expression, that each of the families has done so many different things, to focus on Judaism, focus on making the world a better place in memory of their loved ones. But this is just one more extraordinarily powerful example about how just being Jewish, just doing what we do best, it keeps us going.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Marnie, Howard, thank you so much for joining us and sharing part of your journey with our listeners, it's really a valuable conversation to have.

Marnie Fienberg:

Thank you for having us. We appreciate it. 

Nefesh Mountain, from the song Tree of Life [singing]:

O sweet friends, come and dry your eyes

And hold each other by this Tree of Life

I'm angry and tired of this great divide

But I sing, nonetheless, with love on our side

Manya Brachear Pashman:

This episode is brought to you by AJC. Our producer is Atara Lakritz. Our sound engineer is TK Broderick. You can follow People of the Pod on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod. The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC. 

You can reach us at peopleofthepod@ajc.org. If you appreciated this episode, please share it with friends and family and write a review on Apple Podcasts.

At 6:30 a.m on October 7, 2023, Renana Gomeh's life changed forever when Iran-backed Hamas terrorists stormed her home in Kibbutz Nir Oz and took her two sons, Yagil and Or Yaakov, ages 12 and 16, hostage. She has not heard from them since, knows nothing about the conditions they're held in, or whether they're still alive. Listen to Renana's painful account, how she is coping, and her mission to bring them home. 

American Jewish Committee (AJC) and more than 110 Jewish organizations have urged the United Nations and all governments to secure the immediate and unconditional release of the hostages.

Update: This conversation was recorded on October 19. On November 27, Yagil and Or Yaakov were released as part of a temporary pause in fighting. Take action to bring their father, Yair Yaakov, and all remaining hostages home now.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) 

Show Notes:

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• What Biden's Wartime Visit to Israel Signals to Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah
• Mai Gutman Was Supposed to Be at the Music Festival: IDF Lone Soldier Recounts Harrowing Week
• Responding to Hamas Terror: IsraAID CEO on How You Can Help Israelis Right Now

Learn:

• What is Known About Israeli Hostages Taken by Hamas

• AJC.org/AttackonIsrael 

Donate:

• AJC.org/SupportIsrael

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

___

Transcript of Interview with Renana Gomeh:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Over 200 hostages are being held by the Iran backed terror group Hamas after its terrorist attack against Israel and the massacre of over 1400 Israelis on October 7. American Jewish Committee and more than 110 Jewish organizations from more than 40 countries have urged the United Nations and all governments to secure the immediate and unconditional release of the hostages. The condition of many of the hostages remains unknown, yet we know some are in dire need of urgent medical care. With me to discuss her efforts to bring back her 12 year old and 16 year old sons is Renana Gomeh. Renana, thank you for joining us. 

Renana Gomeh:  

Thank you so much for having me.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Now, your two sons were kidnapped from Kibbutz Nir Oz by Hamas terrorists on October 7. You were on the phone with your sons, as Hamas terrorists were breaking into your home. I cannot imagine what you've been going through over the past 2 weeks. Could you please tell listeners what happened that morning at 6:30am?

Renana Gomeh:  

Yes, I was on another kibbutz that Saturday morning, with my spouse. I have a partner living on another kibbutz in another community near the Gaza border, which is 15 minutes drive away. And I'm divorced, and my ex-husband lives 400 meters away from me. He's also a member of my kibbutz, of my community. And the boys just usually sleep at my place. You know, this is how they prefer it. And since they're not very young children anymore, we let them choose. So they were alone at home. 

And he was at his place with his girlfriend, with his partner, who I love to bits. And about 6:30 in the morning, we all woke up to the red alert, which is unfortunately something which became a routine and we're used to. Since I was also on our kibbutz on the Gaza border, all communities at the Gaza border had red alerts and rockets flying over, hundreds of rockets flying over on a completely surprise attack. We just didn't see it coming whatsoever. I called my boys as I was running to the safe room at the place I was in to make sure that they're in the safe room at my place. And as the safe room is the eldest son's bedroom, he was there but he made sure that his little brother was also there. So they were in the safe room. And every couple of minutes I spoke to them to see that they were okay. 

At a certain point they said they're starting hearing gunshots outside the house and I could hear gunshots outside the house I was in. Again, it was a completely well-planned and well-executed attack on all communities at the same time. So no one could go outside. 

And I told them it was probably the army defending them. You know, they're keeping us safe. 30 minutes later or so I can't remember. I've lost track of time to be honest, of that morning. We started getting text messages from other members of the community saying terrorists are walking outside freely, breaking into houses, trying to get people out. I was begging neighbors and people from the community to go and see, to go and see them, go and be with them. You know, try and help them. But no one could go outside. And there were probably over 100 terrorists walking around, getting into houses. So there was not a chance that anyone could help. 

At a certain point I asked my elder brother, who's also a member of the community, to call my eldest [son] and tell him how to lock the door. The doors don't lock in a safe room because the safe rooms were planned against missiles and rocket attacks and against earthquakes. So they actually want you to have the door been able to open from the outside, so they can take you out. So they don't lock. But you know, there's certain technical ways to try and keep them locked. So I asked him to call my eldest and tell him how to do it. And then I later found out that he held the door like hell. And he fought for that door. But it didn't make it. And about an hour later, about two hours after the attack started, they called me and said, they hear someone breaking in. Breaking the door, breaking in, walking in the house. 

And a couple of minutes later, I could hear Arabic speaking outside. The door opens. And my youngest said, Please don't take me, I'm too young. He was always good at manipulation. This time it didn't work. And they took them. That was the last I've heard from them. It's almost two weeks now. And I've nothing, I've heard nothing. I know nothing of their whereabouts. I know nothing about the conditions they're held in, whether they eat, whether they sleep, and whether they're still alive.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I'm so sorry to make you relive that. But I also know that it's important that you share your story with the wider world. 

Renana Gomeh

It is, it is. I know. This is all I can do at the moment, you know. And so it means a lot to me that you're actually giving me the platform. Because what I need your audience to do is to enlist to the effort to get them released now. To get my boys home alive now. They shouldn't be there. They take children hostage, 80 people out of our small community, which only is about 400 people. 80 people were taken hostage from the age of six months to the age of 86. People who need medicine, people who need medical care. It's just plain children that need a mother. 

I later found out that my ex-husband and his girlfriend were also taken hostage from their house. My hope is that they've met and they're together. As 80 people were taken my hope is that someone that they know is with them, to support them and to help them.

That's the story you know. As a mother to other mothers, just trying to imagine it was your child being kept there. Just for one hour, let alone 13 days. My heart goes out to every mother even in the Gaza Strip. You sometimes get in the news in Israel, you sometimes get news like a 14 year old terrorist was killed tonight at a terror attack and I always my heart goes out to them and I say you know he's 14, he's someone's child. But what kind of a mother raises such monsters?

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Of course, listeners who are hearing this can go to AJC.org/BringThemHome to send a letter to the United Nations, send a letter to Congress to demand swift action to release the hostages. I know that you are pushing for swift action to release your sons and the other hostages. Who have you met with, who have you talked to about bringing your sons home and what can be done? 

Renana Gomeh:  

Well I've met anyone who was willing to meet me. I was mainly trying to get the media, international media to hear my voice and to get people around the world to hear us. I think the international community has a lot of tools and there's many ways you can help by just by putting pressure, as you just suggested, by putting the right pressure in the right places, in order to release them. Obviously I want all of them to be released, there's over 200 people kept in the Gaza Strip, as far as we know, I think there's more. But, you know, it's not for me to say.

What we need you to do is to approach your governments. And ask them to release those civilians that are held. We don't even know, again, in what conditions and especially released those 40 or so children. Children under the age of 18, from babies to teenagers. They're not part of this game. I'm sorry. They are not bargain chips in the war game. Get them free now without any conditions whatsoever. I can't see how anyone can think otherwise. It's just plain and simple.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Renana, are you getting any explanations or theories from diplomats, people that you're speaking with, on why they're holding your sons and other children like this?

Renana Gomeh:  

To be honest, until two weeks ago, I saw us as neighbors. And I thought there was mutuality between us, you know, that we could have a future together. Those two people have a mutual economy, have mutual relations, even have mutual cultures. But I don't think we do. I can't even try and get into these terrorists' heads and the way they think, because what they did is not just taking soldiers hostages in order to bargain them, to trade them, for prisoners. What they did was to rape and decapitate and murder, just for the sake of fun. 

They came in, had cameras, to have this horror filmed, and put on Facebook and on TikTok. So I can't even begin to try and understand but I reckon they probably want to bargain them for the prisoners, which as far as I'm concerned…I don't care. I think the actions they took cannot be justified in normal rules of war. I can't, I can't explain. It's not for bargaining. It's for fun. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Are you being told there are limits to what diplomats can do or is anyone telling you their hands are tied, or are you getting unequivocal unbridled assurance that everything is being done?

Renana Gomeh:  

I'm not really told anything at the moment, but I'm not an expert. I understand that not everything can be told. If there are efforts being done, which I hope there are, they can't share it with 200 families. My hopes are that anyone with the right mind understands that this situation can not go on. And the children cannot stay held by terrorists for not even one hour, let alone a day or a month. And that has to be over, no matter what. I don't care if the war still goes on after. I don't believe there's any other way to get them released, but diplomatic pressure. I think this is the way to do it. But I'm not sure there's anyone to negotiate with. So you know, the other side is so different to us. And their morales are so different from ours, apparently.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Are you traveling places to meet with government officials, and do those government officials include Israel, America, beyond that?

Renana Gomeh:  

I'm willing to do anything to get my kids back home. And to get everyone's kids back home. I have another daughter, my eldest, who's 21, who was also in Nir Oz at that horrible, horror day. And who's traumatized. Thank God, her boyfriend was around and held the door. And luckily, they got out alive but very, very deeply scarred. And I have to take that into consideration while making decisions about traveling far away. But I'm doing my best by Zoom. I'm trying to get my voice heard in any way I can, under those conditions. And I still have her to think of, she's all I have at the moment. So she deserves her mother to be around. Even [if] she's willing for me to do anything to get her father and her brothers back.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Where are you staying now?

Renana Gomeh:  

We've been evacuated to a beautiful hotel suite in Eilat. My boys love Eilat. I was here with them two months ago on summer vacation. It took me years after I got divorced to get to this point where I can take them to a summer holiday on my own. So it was very meaningful also. So I'm finding it very very hard to walk around in Eilat. But everyone from my–what's left of my community of what was Nir Oz–everyone were evacuated to this hotel and we found it very important to be together. 

This community, you know, it's like a big family to us. This is why we decided to stay here with them. It's very hard because it's very far away from everywhere in Israel. I know for people in the States internal flights seem like a normal bus. But for us, it's not. But at least it feels safe-ish. I don't think anyone who's now staying here could bear even one more alarm. 

People ran for their lives, people fought terrorists. People jumped out of burning houses, people fell out of windows, people were hiding in bushes, people were faking themselves dead. There's not even a… I can't even start to describe, you know, for me, the horror was the fact that my children were taken away. But other people experienced horrors themselves. So we're here with our big family, the kibbutz, trying to recover from ashes.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Much of the world's attention is on what's going on now in Gaza. What do you have to say to journalists who are covering this war?

Renana Gomeh:  

The last thing I want, as a human being, as a mother, as a woman–if we were to run the world, it wouldn't happen. Just saying. But the last thing I would have wanted is war. You know, we've had so many in the last few years. This is the last thing we need. This is the last thing the Gaza people need. People in Gaza are used as human shields, even their children, like I said, terrorists who are 14. Terrorists, they're children, why are they carrying guns? Why are their summer camps, teaching them how to use guns and to become terrorists?

My heart goes out to every mother there. And I wish we didn't have to have a war. And I wish we could live a better life. And I think the people in Gaza had that chance. We walked out of the Gaza Strip 20 years ago, took villages, complete villages out. And it was a very difficult action to do in Israel. Which, you know, we still bleed on it nowadays, politically and socially. 

And we gave them the opportunity to become an independent state. And they gave the keys to a terrorist organization, which uses all the money that the EU and whoever is giving them in order to weaponize themselves and in order to become terrorists and to educate their children to become terrorists. 

I used to tell my children all the time: your life is so much better than children in Gaza. You have education, you have running water, you have electricity. And you have the morals that the Jewish world gives to their children: of equality, of mutuality, of giving away from yourself and no wish to get something in return. 

The other side does the opposite. We treasure life as Jews and they treasure death. So I'm sorry, but my sympathy is gone. I want my children back home, now, alive. Afterwards, we can speak about having a war or not having a war, the conditions they're in, the humanitarian solutions. But the world should know that what happens there is not an independent state. It's a terrorist organization, holding civilians, hostages. Their own civilians. My heart goes out to every child and every mother there. It's not their fault.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Thank you so much for sharing your perspective, sharing your family's story. And I am praying and we are all doing everything we can to help you get your sons and the other hostages home. And I pray that that happens very soon. Thank you so much for joining us.

Renana Gomeh:  

I just want them–I just want my boys back home alive now and I want you to help us do it in any way you can. Thank you so much for having me.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

If you would like to help make a difference, go to AJC.org/BringThemHome. There you can urge the United Nations and members of Congress to secure the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages being held by Hamas terrorists in Gaza.

Jason Isaacson, AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer, joins us to break down U.S. President Joe Biden's historic wartime visit to Israel and his message to Iran and its terror proxies Hamas and Hezbollah. Jason also shares his take on the fast-moving situation, including the fallout from the explosion at the Gaza hospital, the announcement of humanitarian aid to Gaza, and the growing antisemitic attacks in the Middle East and Europe. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Jason Isaacson

Show Notes:

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• Mai Gutman Was Supposed to Be at the Music Festival: IDF Lone Soldier Recounts Harrowing Week
• Responding to Hamas Terror: IsraAID CEO on How You Can Help Israelis Right Now

Learn:

• What Everyone Needs to Know About Hamas' Lie About a Rocket Strike on a Gaza Hospital

• AJC.org/AttackonIsrael 

Donate:

• AJC.org/SupportIsrael

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Jason Isaacson:

President Joe Biden:

October 7th, which was a sacred Jewish holiday, became the deadliest day for the Jewish people since the Holocaust.  It has brought to the surface painful memories and scars left by a millennia of antisemitism and the genocide of the Jewish people.

The world watched then, it knew, and the world did nothing.  We will not stand by and do nothing again.  Not today, not tomorrow, not ever.

To those who are living in limbo waiting desperately to learn the fate of a loved one, especially to families of the hostages: You're not alone.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

On October 18th, 2023, President Joe Biden became the first American President to visit Israel during wartime, demonstrating his unequivocal support for the Israeli government. Here to talk about President Biden's visit is Jason Isaacson, AJC's chief policy and political affairs officer, joining us from Berlin where he's witnessed some of the European response to the crisis. Jason, welcome back to People of the Pod.

Jason Isaacson:  

Thank you, Manya. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I am always shocked when the President goes to a war zone like he did go to Ukraine in February, or in this case, Israel. What did President Biden's visit signal about his support for Israel during this time?

Jason Isaacson:  

This is a president who has long identified himself as a strong supporter of Israel, who has spoken again and again, throughout his political career, from the time that he was a young man serving in the US Senate, of his support for, his identification with Israel. 

But to hear him speak, as he spoke on Wednesday, in Tel Aviv, after meeting with the Israeli war cabinet that Prime Minister Netanyahu assembled, after other meetings that took place as well, to hear him speak with such passion, such conviction about the priority for the United States, of standing by Israel, of identifying with the struggle that Israel now faces against Hamas terror. 

To hear him talk about "the nations of conscience," as he referred to the US and Israel together. The struggle that the Jewish people have had over the centuries, the fight against antisemitism, his references to the Holocaust.

All of that, and to say that the United States was standing by Israel, in the fullest possible way, the deployment of an aircraft carrier battle group to the eastern Mediterranean. Another aircraft carrier battle group, steaming to the eastern Mediterranean as well to provide additional support. The package of additional military assistance. He described it as an unprecedented package of military assistance that he is asking Congress to approve, to help Israel through this difficult time. 

All of these statements and his just physical presence in Israel, in the midst of war, spoke volumes of the support that the United States has for Israel. And he also spoke frankly, about the tragedy that occurred the night before he arrived, at a hospital in Gaza. And the fact that all the indications are that this was caused by the fire of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the rocket that misfired. It wasn't, as so much of the media and so much of the region, frankly, has alleged that it was somehow the work of Israel. 

Very clearly from the evidence that has been accumulated by U.S. surveillance and other means of data collection. This was something that was a misfire from the Palestinian side. All of that, packaged into a single presentation by the president at the old American Embassy in Tel Aviv, just spoke volumes of the support that the United States has for Israel, that the US is standing by Israel in this very difficult time.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Let's talk about people who immediately assumed that it was an Israeli airstrike that caused that explosion at that hospital. Many did jump on board with that argument, including Jordan and Egypt. And those are countries with whom Israel has had peace agreements for quite some time, but they seem to embrace that story right away. What is going on with the the Arab nations? What has their response been to this violence?

Jason Isaacson:  

It's profoundly disappointing. Lies have velocity and in the age of social media, enormous power, and circulation that really just can't be turned back without a huge effort to introduce the truth into the narrative. The lies that have been told about Israel for decades, have saturated the region and frankly, the world, and a lot of the international media as well, quite regrettably. Even in our own country. 

So it's easy to believe that if you've been told for decades, that Israel is a colonizer, Israel is an oppressor, Israel is heartless in its treatment of its Palestinian neighbors, then you see pictures of people carrying wounded people or bodies strewn about a courtyard in Gaza, knowing that Israel is attacking Gaza, because it's trying to root out the Hamas terrorists have attacked Israel just a few days before. It's easy to believe if you've got that background, and you've been hearing this and been raised on this kind of media saturation, that Israel is to blame. 

And it is only later that the facts come out, that the imagery that we have been now seeing on social media from a few sources, highly credible sources, what the United States government has now found through its own quite formidable means of data collection, that that this was not Israel, targeting a hospital or firing on a hospital. It was a Palestinian rocket that fell on this hospital while they were sending a barrage of rockets into Israel. There have been hundreds of Palestinian rockets and missiles that have fallen in Gaza and have killed Palestinians. This was the latest incident. It's horrible. 

The people of Gaza are suffering. The Palestinians are suffering because of the rule of Hamas. And the more that the region talks about that openly–instead of talking about it privately. 

AJC knows from our many years, including recently, of traveling across the Arab world and speaking to Arab leaders who know better, know the reality: that Israel is fighting ruthless terrorists, funded by, supported by, armed by Iran. And waging this war that is really their war, against these kinds of extremists who are hijacking a great faith and fighting in the name of a great faith when they are actually doing everything they possibly can to damage the reputation of and the standing and the principles of a great faith. 

And Israel is fighting this fight not only for itself and for its people, but frankly, for the possibility of peace and stability and prosperity in that region. I'm hopeful that at some point, it will be possible for the leaders of that region to step forward and say publicly what they have said so many times privately that they know that Israel's struggle is their struggle. And there have been a few assertions of this, I have to point out, in the last week and a half, there have been some statements that have identified by name, Hamas. 

I was struck by a statement made by the UAE ambassador to the UN. Statements that were issued on Twitter, by the Kingdom of Bahrain and by the United Arab Emirates a few days after the October 7 atrocities in Israel. But so many of the statements that we've seen in the last week, have been profoundly disappointing and hypocritical. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You mentioned the actual threat of Iran to Arab nations. I'm curious what message Biden's visit sends to Iran and its terror proxies on the border with Lebanon?

Jason Isaacson:  

Well, I very much hope that having the USS Gerald R. Ford in the eastern Mediterranean, the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower on its way as well. There was also, I believe, a fighter squadron that was being repositioned to the region. There are enormous military assets that were already in the region. 

But the US has made it very clear, President Biden, Secretary Blinken and Secretary Austin, in their visits to the region as well, have made it very clear that the US is telling the region as President Biden said, again and again, you know, my message to the region is: don't. Don't even think about the possibility of adding to this fight against Israel of joining this fight against Israel. The US will step forward. 

Whether the US will not only provide additional military hardware, as the President has offered, and there of course are many friends in Congress who are stepping forward right now to provide for that as well. But the US could also enter this fight, depending on the circumstance, on the possibility of a widening of the war. Should Iran make the tragic blunder of deciding to somehow enter into this fight in a more direct way, there would be a powerful response. I think the President has made that quite clear.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you think Biden's visit will deter Hezbollah? Or are Iran and Hezbollah one in the same?

Jason Isaacson:  

Closely connected, maybe not exactly one of the same, but clearly, Iran would like to see Hezbollah take a more, it appears, take a more aggressive posture. There have been some incursions that have been conducted by Hezbollah, or by people from the Hezbollah controlled territory of southern Lebanon into northern Israel, there have been the firings of certain missiles and mortars. Some of them are not the full scale kind of attack that Israel would need to respond to forcefully and that and that would actually represent a second front that hasn't happened. As of the time that you and I are speaking, let's hope that that doesn't happen. 

Let's hope that the messages that have been sent by the President, clearly messages sent by Israel, that it is prepared for any fight and will not allow its citizens of the North and the country as a whole to be invaded by by Hezbollah, it will resist powerfully and it will punish any incursion, any attack in a way that Israel has had to do in the past–at great cost. But Israel will defend itself, Israel will stand strong. And the United States will have its back as the President has said repeatedly and demonstrated by his latest visit, and the announcement that he made when he was in Israel this week.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You know speaking of Iran, I want to go back to that, they have called for an oil embargo on Israel, how likely is that to happen?

Jason Isaacson:

I'd say pretty unlikely. I think that Iran's threats are hollow, and will be met by the oil suppliers from not only the region but from elsewhere, including Europe, including Azerbaijan. There are energy supplies that Israel produces, as you know, on its own through an abundant supply of natural gas in the Eastern Mediterranean. I'm not concerned about a cut off of energy to Israel. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In Tel Aviv, President Biden announced that humanitarian aid – food, water, medical supplies – would start to flow to Gaza from Egypt. Prime Minister Netanyahu then added that Israel would prevent any aid from reaching Hamas. Why this turn of events, Jason? 

Jason Isaacson:  

My assumption is, in the early days of the fight against Hamas, there was a sense that by putting pressure on Gaza as a whole, Hamas could be induced to release the hostages, some 200 hostages that it is holding, that the Palestinian people would put pressure on Hamas, to do so, to save themselves. I believe that there was also a concern that providing anything, allowing anything to flow into Gaza, would provide the wherewithal for Hamas to continue to build the rockets and missiles and make other preparations, build out its infrastructure, and fuel its fight against Israel. So I think the idea was, as in many war situations, you know, cut them off, then move in and try to surgically, as surgically as possible, take out the leadership and, and dismantle the infrastructure of terror. But as the situation evolves, and as it's clear that the Palestinians are, are suffering from a lack of, of food or water power, I think the thinking has shifted with, with the United States and other countries offering to provide additional assistance. I think it's very clear that Israel feels also that their intention is not to harm the Palestinian people, their intention is to eliminate Hamas. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So, Jason, I am speaking to you, actually, you are in Berlin right now. Can you tell me a little bit, tell our listeners a little bit about what you're hearing, what you're seeing there on that side of the ocean.

Jason Isaacson:  

Of course, Manya. Before I came to Berlin, I was in Paris, briefly as well. And I know the Jewish communities in Paris and Berlin, elsewhere in Europe, are on edge. There have been large street demonstrations in London and Brussels, in Paris and elsewhere. There was a firebombing the night before you and I are having this conversation at a synagogue in Berlin. There was a teacher who was stabbed to death outside of Paris, a couple of days ago. There were two people who were shot to death in Brussels, as well. There have been other acts of violence. Also within a day of our conversation, Manya, there was a firebombing of a synagogue in Tunisia, which has a small Jewish community that's been, in that country for 2000 years. 

So there are Jewish communities that are feeling the fallout, the impact of the propaganda that has raced across the world, about Israel being responsible for the suffering of Palestinians. And supporters of the Palestinian cause have come to the streets. And some of them have come to the streets with knives and Molotov cocktails, and have expressed their anger, and targets have been Jews, not just Israelis. 

And this is dangerous, and it needs to be confronted, extremely directly and forcefully as it has been, for the most part, I would say, by police authorities, by federal authorities as well across Europe. AJC is very concerned about the well-being of Jewish communities in the diaspora as a result of what's happening in Israel and Gaza. 

We were seeing in the first hours and days of the attacks of October 7, expressions of sympathy from across the planet, striking expressions, powerful expressions. I will not forget the statements by Prime Minister Modi, for instance of India, the most populous nation on earth, expressing solidarity with Israel. But then in the days following that, really attention has shifted entirely, the narratives have changed. And now, what we're seeing more, are demonstrations in the street. There were demonstrations in the streets of solidarity with Israel in the first day or two, including here in Berlin. But, now we're seeing a very different and a very ugly, and a completely misplaced set of priorities and angers and prejudices against Jewish communities. So we need to do what we can, working with Jewish communities, with governments to provide protection to Jewish communities that are vulnerable. And we need to hear expressions of support, solidarity, and truth from governments around the world: what really is happening, what the threats really are, and standing by Jewish communities as we stand by the State of Israel as it recovers from the trauma of October 7.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Thank you so much Jason, for joining us.

Jason Isaacson:  

Thank you. Always a pleasure, Manya. Take care.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

If you missed last week's episodes – listen to: Yotam Polizer, the CEO of IsraAID, on how Israel's leading international humanitarian organization is responding to the immediate and long-term needs on the ground. 

And Mai Gutman, a 28 year old graduate student and member of AJC's Campus Global Board, who planned to join her friends at the Supernova music festival near Israel's border with Gaza on Saturday, October 7. But when relatives came to visit, she decided to celebrate Shabbat and Simchat Torah in Jerusalem instead—a change of plans that saved her life. 

Mai Gutman, 28, a graduate student and member of AJC's Campus Global Board, had planned to join her friends at the Supernova music festival near Israel's border with Gaza on Saturday, October 7. But when relatives came to visit, she decided to celebrate Shabbat and Simchat Torah in Jerusalem instead—a change of plans that saved her life. At least 260 young Israelis and people from all over the world were brutally murdered by Hamas terrorists at the festival. Mai, an IDF reservist who was just recently called up, joins us from her base to talk about waking up in Jerusalem the morning of October 7, the harrowing messages that she received from friends, and the four days since.  

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Mai Gutman

Show Notes:

Donate:

• AJC.org/SupportIsrael

Learn:

• AJC.org/AttackonIsrael 

• AJC.org/CampusBoard

• AJC.org/CampusLibrary

Song credits: 

Pond5: 

• "Hatikvah (National Anthem Of Israel, Electric Guitar)"; Composer: Composer: Eli Sibony; ID#122561081

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

___

Transcript of Interview with Mai Gutman:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

The techno music festival near Israel's border with Gaza was billed as the essence of unity and love in a breathtaking location. At least 260 people were brutally killed by Hamas terrorists there on Saturday morning, October 7th. 28-year-old Mai Gutman was supposed to be there and had already joined the WhatsApp groups of friends and fellow concert goers to keep in touch. But she did not go. Mai, a member of AJC's Campus Global Board and a reservist who was just recently called up, joins us from her IDF base to talk about waking up in Jerusalem the morning of October 7th and the four days since. 

Mai, welcome. 

Where are you now?

Mai Gutman:  

I live in Herzeliya. Currently, located in a place that I can't exactly disclose, but I am in the north of Israel.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Are you able to share what you're seeing and hearing all around you?

Mai Gutman:  

Currently where I am I mean, we can hear the news, we can hear what's going on around us in the South as well. Even though we are stationed in the north. Today [October 11, 2023] was a pretty hectic day in terms of developments on the northern border. We had a day pretty much full of running to the bomb shelters and staying there, which indicated some sort of an escalation. I can't go into too many details, obviously. But we can feel the escalation coming and we're prepared for it.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So you were born in Israel but grew up mostly in Melbourne, Australia. How did you end up back in Israel?

Mai Gutman:  

I moved to Australia with my parents when I was only 18 months old, and I had grown up in Australia. But I had always felt a very strong connection to Israel. Something that really I couldn't put into words, I couldn't explain, it was just an inherent feeling. And when I was 18, I just decided that I'm going to go to Israel, I'm going to make Aliya and I'm going to draft into the army just because I think, you know, for me, it was important, if I'm going to live there, then I definitely need to carry the burden and be a part of society in that way and contribute. Because I find it difficult to comprehend living here, and not being a part of that very fundamental part of people's lives. It's a very crucial part of people's lives around here. And I feel like I wouldn't really be able to fit in and understand, you know, Israeli society, and also the Israeli mentality without having that experience. And I also just think that it's important, all in all, just to contribute. And that's I guess, how I got into the army. And I served for almost three years in a combat unit in search and rescue.

For me, at the time, when I first drafted it was really the first years of women going into combat units. So it was a very kind of still a new idea. And I was really eager to jump on that and see how I go.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So with no immediate family there, does that qualify you as a lone soldier?

Mai Gutman:  

Yes, absolutely. So I enlisted with Garin Tzabar, which is a program that brings young adults from all around the world who want to make Aliyah and specifically to draft into the IDF, but don't have any immediate family with them. So Garin Tzabar provides that network of family and support, I guess, to deal with, first of all, all the bureaucracy that comes with moving to another country and drafting into the military. But also, you know, you get put on a kibbutz and you get given a host family, which is really nice. And it's just nice to have that initial support network because it might feel a little bit lonely when we first arrive. But now we're really like a one big family and we still keep in touch to this day, even though it was I think, 10 years ago, almost that we were all together on the kibbutz.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So where were you when this escalation first began on October 7?

Mai Gutman:  

I want to preface this by saying I was in Jerusalem on October 7, I was celebrating the chag of Simchat Torah, and the Sabbath with my family with my cousins. And also I had cousins that actually came from America, to join us in Jerusalem was a very big occasion. And that's really, I think, the only reason why I decided to come to Jerusalem and spend time with family because there was a very big music festival happening that weekend. And I was very keen initially, to go to that music festival. I had initially planned to go with my friend. And I joined, you know, the WhatsApp groups to try and find a good crew to go up with and find a means of transportation and all that. And then yeah, literally, you know, I think it was a couple of days later that my aunt had called me and she said, Hey, listen, you know, your cousins are coming. We're all going to be in Jerusalem at the same time. Like, let's, let's all do hog together, we really want you to come and be with us. And I said, Well, obviously, I mean, I'd rather be with family on such a unique occasion, I can go to a music festival any other time. 

So you know, I just kind of dropped those plans and ended up doing it in Jerusalem and ended up spent spending that weekend in Jerusalem, which was, I think the decision that ended up saving my life. And the morning of October 7, I had woken up to the sound of sirens, of Red Alert sirens, which is the sirens that go off when there's a rocket that's approaching an area in Israel, which was quite confusing to me. It was about 8am. And it was quite confusing to me, because in order for rocket sirens to be going off in Jerusalem, for me, I had to put quickly two and two in my head and say, well, that means that there's a lot more going on down south. 

So I you know, being a Sabbath day being a chag day as well in my family being, you know, Orthodox and observant of that day, we didn't have our phones at the ready. We didn't have the news on or anything like that. So I had decided to quickly jump on and see what was going on. Because obviously it was a lot more serious than what I thought. 

And I opened my phone and I'm reading the headlines in absolute disbelief, in shock. Terrorists had infiltrated into Israeli territory, they had massacred people on the streets, innocent civilians. They had burned houses, they'd gone into bomb shelters and literally just gunned people down.

I think the most shocking part, though, was when my phone started pinging with those WhatsApp groups that I was saying earlier that I was part of a music festival. And the messages started coming through saying Help us help us You have no idea that here they're gunning us down. They're shooting at us. I'm bleeding, I'm hurt. Can someone call the police, call the army. My friend's dead. I think someone help me, someone help me. And other people are texting like you know some people went some people did it's pretty big Whatsapp group. What's going on? Who do we call? No one at the police station is answering. Nobody in the army bases are answering–why? Because terrorists had already commandeered their bases. They had murdered everyone. Almost everyone in those bases in order to get through. And they've made their way to this music festival of peace and love where people were celebrating. Young people my age, young people, my friend's age, my friends as well, who were there who came to have a good time. And you see them in this footage that they're sending through in the early hours of the morning, sending through footage of, of running of bullets, and they're dressed in their costumes, their beautiful faces made with colorful face paint. 

And you can see that they were just having a good time and tears streaming and screaming and running and shooting in the background. And it's like a war zone.  It was like a scene from Armageddon. It looks apocalyptic. And I was just shaking, holding my phone shaking. What do I do? How do I feel helpless, I have nothing that I can do. And in the meanwhile, there are sirens going off in the background rocket rocket attacks on Jerusalem, rocket attacks down south. And you just feel like, Oh, my God. And you've just woken up just so you understand. Like you've just woken up. It's so overwhelming.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Oh, Mai. I can't imagine your struggle in those moments to really distinguish between nightmare or reality.  What did you do to try to make sense of things? 

Mai Gutman:

I turned on the news. And on the news, they're saying, Oh, we think that, you know, there are rocket sirens. And we think that there might be something going on in the South that maybe terrorists have entered. We're not sure. And nothing about the music festival. The music festival, I think was only broadcasted the news about the music festival. In the late afternoon. It started being broadcasted. And I from the morning, I've already known about this, the people are literally bleeding out people are dying, as we speak while we're hiding in bomb shelters, people are dying. And and what do you do? What do you do? What do you do in that situation? You feel completely hopeless. And that is, I think, until now, the feeling that most Israeli civilians, if not all, are feeling we are feeling helpless, almost betrayed by a colossal failure on the part of the Israeli military on the part of the Israeli intelligence, that how could this happen? Without you know, we brag we say, you know, we've got the strongest military? And how could this possibly happen, with the most deaths–the most Jewish deaths to occur in a single day, since the Holocaust? Unfathomable.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

How has your IDF service impacted your connection to Judaism and your connection to Israel?

Mai Gutman:  

It definitely changed me, it definitely strengthened I think, my Jewish identity and my Zionist identity. It gave me immense purpose. Also, as the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, especially one of the largest families of Holocaust survivors, in Melbourne, that really, I think established the community in terms of, you know, our schools, our shows, our youth movements, we had a very family has a very big part to play, and I'm very privileged to be part of that family. 

But for me, it was, you know, to draft into the army. It's something that I felt as something of an obligation almost because I knew, and we can really take this situation as an example. But I knew that if I don't do something, if I'm not part of the solution, or the help, I guess, then we might not have a country, which means that we may have a Holocaust again.

Ad we saw the effects today, of the very real existential crisis and threat that we face in Israel, along our borders. And if anything was to happen, if we let our guard down for even a second, this is the result. We don't have an alternative. We don't. We have a purpose. 

And my purpose, I feel everyone has a purpose, but my purpose that I genuinely feel, and I this was really strengthened in the army was when I swore allegiance to the army and to the state. I felt within myself that this is something that I won't only interpret in terms of my service and my physical military service, but I'll take with me to my grave I will do this in any capacity that I can. 

I work in Hasbara. It's my passion to defend the state because I just know that we have no other alternative without it, the alternative that we have is persecution, as the Jewish nation has faced for many years. And that's not an alternative we can accept.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Do you feel like you're at home right now? 

Mai Gutman:  

Absolutely. I feel at home. I've never felt more at home than I have in Israel. When I come to Israel, it's an immediate relief, a sense of relief in my heart. It's like something when I live abroad, or when I'm abroad, there's a constant sense of yearning, that I can never shake, doesn't matter what I try, it doesn't matter how many good people are surrounding me and my loving family, as much as I love them so much. It'll never fill that void that I have that's really only filled when I'm in Israel, and I can't explain it sounds–I don't know, spiritual, I guess, but that it is what it is. And I feel very comfortable here. Despite the chaos that's going on around us this is I know that I am where I need to be.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

But you're not just living in Israel. You're serving your nation, you're now defending it during one of its most dire moments in modern history.

Mai Gutman:  

I mean, until I got called up, I was sitting on shpilkes, I couldn't even imagine like I was just what can I do, I went to go to the supermarket and I bought a bunch of like a huge carton worth of stuff, for the soldiers that were already serving that were already called up.  I went to go help pack boxes, I felt so helpless, though I really was just waiting for the call. I had been on standby already from Saturday. Standby, obviously is just when your bags have to be packed, don't know when you're gonna be called. And it could be at any time, it could be never at all. 

So I am happy to just be part of a very strong nation, a very strong military. Despite what's happened recently, I do still believe that our nation is strong and our military is strong. And we will get through this, we will overcome this. Because as we can see, I mean, you know, this whole year, we've been crying over internal division over the judicial reforms in Israel. And it just goes to show you know, what  tragedy, unfortunately, that it has to come to tragedy and to bring us together. 

But at the end of the day, when it comes to real stuff, when it comes to the existential threats and the the things that affect us all, it shows that we are bound together and we are strong together. And everybody doesn't matter what your religious political affiliations are. We are all in this together. And everybody's banding with us together. And it's so special to see and it's only in Israel that we can see such a special and unique form of unity.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Is there anything else that you want Americans or Australians to know, people who are outside of Israel– anything that you want them to know about what's happening there?

Mai Gutman:

I just want you guys to know, whoever's listening here. I know that it's, it seems very, it is very hard, doesn't just seem, it's very hard. The situation is unlike anything that we've seen before. We've never experienced anything like this, especially not in, in our recent history. But I want you to know, and I know it feels difficult being so far away, because I've been there. It's difficult to report on things so far away, but your support, and your raising awareness, your hasbara, your social media engagement. It means a lot. Your thoughts and prayers mean a lot. 

We feel your prayers, we feel your presence with us, we feel you standing behind us and it's like a whole other army standing behind us. It might feel like you're not doing enough or you're not doing anything at all, really. But honestly, it's more than what you think, it's more than what you believe. So just stand by us. And don't give up hope because we certainly aren't. And we can't, we don't have that luxury of giving up hope. 

Our entire nation is built on hope. And that's where our resilience comes from. So be strong. We will win this, we will get through this. By hook or by crook. We'll make it through as long as we all stick together as long as we make sure that we count what's important. We remember what's important, who's important to us, hug your loved ones. Because currently there are so many there are over 1300 families around Israel that are currently grieving and mourning and they don't get that opportunity. 

So make sure to tell your parents you love them. Tell your kids you love them, your sisters, your brothers, your aunts, your uncles, your cousins, your friends, because not everybody has that luxury. And, and yeah, we'll do what we can over here so you do what you can over there.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Mai, thank you so much. Stay safe. Thank you for your service, and we will certainly be praying for you. 

Mai Gutman:  

Thank you.Manya Brachear Pashman: 

American Jewish Committee's Israel Emergency Campaign has already raised more than $1.5 million. Funds that have already gone to Israeli hospitals, efforts to evacuate the elderly, NGOs such as IsraAID, providing support for children, and friends of the Israel Defense Forces. If you would like to donate, go to AJC.org/support Israel.

We're joined by Yotam Politzer, CEO of IsraAID, to discuss how Israel's leading international humanitarian organization is responding to the immediate and long-term needs on the ground in the wake of Iran-backed Hamas's barbaric terrorist attack in Israel. Politzer shares how American Jews can step up to support Israelis through this incredibly difficult time.

American Jewish Committee (AJC) has launched an Israel Emergency Campaign to support Israeli relief organizations. Their first grantee will be IsraAID, AJC's longtime partner, which has responded to emergencies worldwide, but never before in Israel. Until now. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Yotam Politzer 

Show Notes:

Donate:

• AJC.org/SupportIsrael

Learn:

• AJC.org/AttackonIsrael 

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

 ___

Transcript of Interview with Yotam Politzer:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

On the morning of October 7th, Hamas, the terror group governing Gaza and backed by Iran's regime, launched a brutal assault against Israel, invading towns and cities across the southern border aiming to kill as many people as possible and taking more than 100 captives to Gaza. By the time of this recording, the death toll had reached 900. Thousands more are wounded. 

In response to this atrocity, American Jewish Committee has launched an Israel Emergency Campaign to support Israeli relief organizations. The first recipient money raised will be AJC's longtime partner IsraAID, which has responded to emergencies in more than 50 countries around the world, but never before in Israel– until now. 

Yotam Polizer, CEO Of IsraAID, joined us in Tel Aviv earlier this summer. He is joining us again now from New York, where he was visiting when the war broke out. While Yotam is unable to return home at the moment due to lack of flights to Israel, he is working hard to coordinate emergency response from here and is with us to discuss the efforts underway. Yotam, welcome back to People of the Pod. 

Yotam Politzer:  

Thanks for having me. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

It must be so difficult not to be there with your team. 

Yotam Politzer:  

Thankfully, our headquarters and our emergency response team is already in full speed. So I think it's also important for me to be here for two reasons, one, to coordinate the support, and not less importantly, to communicate to people here, both in the Jewish community and in the general community, what we're seeing and hearing in terms of the humanitarian needs on the ground.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what are you hearing from your people on the ground there? What are they reporting?

Yotam Politzer:  

I don't think I need to elaborate on the horrors because I think we've all been following the news and saw all the horrific images. But for us, as Israel's leading international humanitarian organization, we have never had a full-scale humanitarian response in Israel. This is the first time we're actually doing it. And we're doing it because the situation is indeed dire and extreme. The biggest need that we identify right now is related to mental health. And because, of course, we are not a humanitarian organization, we're not involved in the security and the military operation. And of course, there are many needs related to the operation that's going on. From a humanitarian perspective, the whole country is traumatized. 

I don't know of a single person who doesn't know anyone who either was murdered or kidnapped or both. And the number of people who have an immediate family member, or neighbor, who was murdered, or unaccounted for and probably kidnapped by Hamas is so high, talking about hundreds of 1000s of people. Specifically, what we consider the most vulnerable are obviously the people who lived on the frontline, the villages, the moshavim, and the kibbutzim surrounding Gaza.

They have lost on average 10-20% of their population in each of these villages. In Kibbutz Be'eri, just an hour ago, it was published that they found 108 bodies– that's probably much more than 10% of the population there. And many more again, are kidnapped. So these communities who suffered the worst atrocities a person could think of are now in different shelters around the country. So supporting them in these shelters in any shape or form is the most important humanitarian mission of our time. 

Many of them have been evacuated specifically from this kibbutz to the Dead Sea, to the Dead Sea hotels, because it's one of the safest places in Israel. If God forbid, we will have another frontline on the north border, that's still safe enough for these people. And these hotels are now operating as shelters and evacuation centers. And the government and the local regional council and the hotel owners are currently providing the food and shelter. So there are less needs on that front. But again, when it comes to mental health support for everyone there, this is crucial. So that's what our team has been focusing on. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You're also operating what are called Child Safe Spaces, which you describe as "a place for the kids to be kids." Tell us more about that. 

Yotam Politzer:  

We can't imagine what these kids went through. And we just want to give them some sense of normalcy. And let them be kids again, and let them play and let them express themselves and let them release their stress and allow their parents or whoever is left from their families a chance to finally maybe get some sleep, try to reorganize, regroup and deal with everything else that they need to deal with. Try to, you know, start thinking about rebuilding their life after these horrors, which again, will obviously take years. So when we look at the humanitarian needs, I think we need to look at the immediate needs. But even more important, we need to understand that there will be long term needs for these people, and for everyone that is related to them. And so as IsraAID it's very important for us to be first on the ground, wherever it is, in Israel, or in anywhere else in the world. In fact, our team who was responding to the earthquake in Morocco, is now on its way back to Israel to join our team that's already responding in Israel. So that's in short.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In fact, some of the services that you are describing, I believe, you described to me when we spoke earlier this summer, regarding the war in Ukraine, right, many of these similar services were provided there as well, as well as other places around the world. Can you elaborate a little bit about where else around the world you have offered the same services that you're now offering everywhere?

Yotam Politzer:  

I mean, I started my humanitarian career in Japan, again, another developed country, following the earthquake and tsunami in 2011, that killed more than 20,000 people. And they're there, the local government, the local community was very well equipped to support with infrastructure, but they didn't have any kind of emotional mental health support and trauma care. So we actually brought therapists from Sderot, who was working with children who are traumatized in Sderot and develop these models. We brought them to Japan, and we worked with the Syrian refugees with Arabic speaking therapist from Israel. We worked we work in Ukraine in partnership with the First Lady doing mental health and trauma and resilience. And, now we're in Israel. And yes, there are many great professionals doing that in Israel, but many of them were affected. And the level of trauma is so big, that we have to do it in Israel, too.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what can people here do Yotam? How can they help? Because there's certainly a feeling of helplessness as we watch these images from abroad. 

Yotam Politzer:  

Yeah and I totally understand and I think being in a position of doing is very important. Look, I think the two main things to do right now, from here from the other side of the world, which is what I'm trying to do as well, while I'm here, is supporting initiatives like IsraAID, like many other organizations who are responding, and they are great organizations, from Magen David Adom, MDA, that people know, and United Hatzalah, and many are focusing on medical services, some of the hospitals, which is very important. 

The other thing, which is very, very important, and I think each and every one of us can do, even if we don't have the financial resources, is to be ambassadors for the people of Israel. And we need it more than ever. And it means to do it in the Jewish community, outside the Jewish community, on social media, in synagogues, in schools, in the supermarket, everywhere, there are so many ways to become ambassadors for Israel. And this is something we can all do using our phone. And, and it's very, very important. 

And for the people of Israel, and especially the people who are worst affected. There's so much anger, so much frustration, so much fear, and anxiety. And showing our solidarity, in every shape or form, has a huge mental health impact on Israel. I mean, these pictures of cities, the Eiffel Tower or the Brandenburg Gate. In Kyiv. More than 20 places were displaying the Israeli flag as solidarity. I saw it shared so widely in Israel. I mean, knowing hat we have friends. And a lot of them have a huge impact, not only on the Hasbara, and advocacy, which is important, I'm not against it, but also for the mental health and well being of the people of Israel. So it's very, very important. 

What is less helpful at the moment, I'm not against it in general. I don't think we need to send supplies from here to Israel. I know a lot of people want to send supplies, but we can purchase supplies in Israel and support the local economy. And there's also a lot of donations going on or so I think that's less helpful. In terms of volunteers, people who want to go from here to volunteer in Israel, that may be needed in the long run. At this very specific moment. I don't think that's a big need. I think supporting organizations on the ground is more important. If you only have limited resources, rather than paying on a very expensive flight, that may or may not go, I think it's important to support organizations who are on the ground and are based there. But it may be needed in the near future, especially as this become a more long term operation. And then we will need people with specific skills and expertise.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In terms of the response, what are you seeing that is giving you hope? What are you seeing that is discouraging? 

Yotam Politzer:  

I see a lot of things that are reassuring. I see the tremendous support we're getting from many, so many. Not all of them are our typical friends. And, you know, whether it's mainstream media or political leaders, political leaders. I also see some people who are not supporting or trying to paint it, you know, try to be diplomatic on both sides. I don't think at the moment that that makes any sense, to be honest. So that is disturbing. But I also don't hear enough focus on humanitarian needs. I mean, again, I'm not I think the political consequences, the security and safety are very important, but the people there and how to help them and what their needs are, are not being highlighted enough. 

Because maybe it's less sexy in the news, I mean, we do hear a lot of horror stories, but the people who are alive and survived and lost their loved ones and went through the worst trauma a person could think of are not being highlighted. Also the incredible story of resilience and heroism from so many people. I have seen some of these in the Israeli media, but not enough in the foreign media and not enough on social media here. So I also think we need to celebrate the resilience of the people there that have been the most resilient people before this crisis. But considering what they're going through, we need to celebrate these people, these heroes, these communities, we need to support them in whatever way we can, we need to be there for them. We need to so I don't see enough of that.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Is there a particular story that comes to mind that you would like to share with our listeners of such heroism?

Yotam Politzer:  

There are so many actually, but personally, again, and I've been following this news of so many. So many actually, not one person, hundreds of people who were you know, pulled out their sleeves and went in and pulled out people under fire. And these are people who are not in active duty. And they went in and risked their lives in these first 24 hours and pulled out people and some of them lost their lives who are doing that. I was also very touched by stories of Arab nurses and doctors who came in at even higher percentage than they are, to volunteer and to support in the hospitals. I just heard a story of this woman who was not young. But when terrorists came into her house she was so resilient, and she was able to offer – she was so smart and sharp and resilient. And she was able to offer the Hamas terrorist cookies. And to set them down until her rescuers actually came and were able to rescue her. So you know, it's unbelievable. Among the horrors, there are so many of these heroism and resilience stories and I think we should talk about them more.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Yotam, thank you to IsraAID for all you're doing on the ground. AJC has been so proud to call you a partner and is so grateful that we can rely on you to help us channel our heartbreak, constructively.  

Yotam Politzer:  

Thank you so much, first of all, and we're so grateful for AJC. For everything we do together, especially now. AJC has supported us in more than 20 countries. So we have never imagined that we will need AJC to support us in Israel. But here we are. So that's number one. Number two, I do think that myself and all of us here in this part of the world have an important role to play to be the voice for the voiceless and to bring more support. Thank you very much.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In less than 24 hours, AJC's Israel Emergency Campaign has raised more than one million dollars. 100 percent of which will be distributed to hospitals, trauma centers, and frontline Israeli NGOs starting with IsraAID. If you would like to donate, go to AJC.org/supportisrael.

This month, we mark the five-year anniversary of the Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooting at the Tree of Life. On October 27, 2018, 11 worshipers were murdered solely for being Jewish, in the deadliest antisemitic attack in U.S. history.

As the first installment in a four-part series, we take you inside the Tree of Life building before it is demolished in the coming months to make way for a new complex dedicated to Jewish life and combating antisemitism. Hear from Carole Zawatsky, the CEO behind the reimagined Tree of Life, and Eric Lidji, director of the Rauh Jewish Archive, as they explain their mission: to preserve artifacts and memories so that the story is preserved forever. Carole shares her commitment to honoring the victims, and Eric discusses the challenges of documenting an ongoing tragedy. Together, they emphasize the power of bearing witness to history and the healing strength of remembrance.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Eric Lidji, Carole Zawatsky

Show Notes:

Music credits:

• Relent by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com),  Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
• Virtual Violin Virtuoso by techtheist is licensed under a Attribution 4.0 International License
• Fire Tree (Violin Version) by Axletree is licensed under a Attribution 4.0 International License.
• Al Kol Eleh (backing track), with Yisrael Lutnick

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Eric Lidji: Pittsburgh definitely is not forgetting. It's ever present here. There are people who are healing and doing so in ways that, at least from the outside, are remarkable and very inspiring. And there are people who I'm sure have not fully reckoned with it yet.

Carole Zawatsky: It's all too easy to walk away from what's ugly. And we have to remember. We can't walk away.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Five years have gone by since the horrific Shabbat morning at Pittsburgh's Tree of Life Synagogue, when eleven congregants were gunned down during prayer – volunteers, scholars, neighbors, doing what they always did: joining their Jewish community at shul. 

This is the first installment of a series of episodes throughout the month of October devoted to remembering and honoring the lives lost that day and reflecting on how the deadliest antisemitic attack in American history changed those families, changed us, and changed our country. 

Today, we take you to the Tree of Life building that stands on the corner of Shady and Wilkins Avenues in Pittsburgh's Squirrel Hill neighborhood to hear from two people in charge of preserving the artifacts and memories of the vibrant Jewish life that unfolded inside those walls until October 27, 2018.

In early September, our producer Atara Lakritz and I visited the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh's Squirrel Hill neighborhood. Squirrel Hill, where Jews have settled since the 1920s, is quite literally Mister Rogers' neighborhood. We were there to interview those touched by the events of October 27. But it didn't take us long to figure out that everyone there had been affected in some way. 

All along Murray Avenue, in 61C Cafe, at Pinsker's Judaica Shoppe, at the Giant Eagle supermarket, when we told people why we were there, they all had a story, an acquaintance, a connection. 

Later, walking through the glass doors of the synagogue felt like we were stepping through a portal, traveling back five years, when life stopped, and the reality of the hatred and terror that unfolded there began to haunt every step. 

Atara and I were invited to accompany a final group tour of the building before it closed in order for preparations to begin for the building's demolition. The tour was painful, but we felt it necessary to share with our listeners. 

As we left the lobby, we were told to take the stairs to the left. The stairs to the right were off limits. Someone had been shot there. 

We were led to a small, dark storage room where chairs had been stacked for guests. A handful of people had hidden there as the shooter continued his rampage, but one man walked out too soon, thinking it was safe. When first responders later came to get the others, they had to step over his body. 

In the kitchen, there were still marks on the wall where the bullets ricocheted when he shot two women hiding underneath a metal cabinet. The calendar on the wall there was still turned to October 2018 with a list of activities that were happening that week posted alongside it. 

And in the Pervin Chapel where seven people died, pews punctured with bullet holes and carpet squares stained with blood were no longer there. No ark either. 

But remarkably, the stained glass windows remained with images and symbols of Jewish contributions to America, the land to which the ancestors of so many worshipers once inside that synagogue had fled to and found safety. Those windows will be carefully removed by the son of the man who first installed them 70 years ago. And they will return, when the reimagined Tree of Life rises again.  

Carole Zawatsky: The tragedy is a Pittsburgh experience. But it's also every Jew's experience. It shattered for so many of us our sense of security in America. This is our safe haven. This is where we came to.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Carole Zawatsky is the inaugural CEO of the reimagined Tree of Life. Since November 2022, she has overseen the development of a new complex on the hallowed ground: an education center dedicated to ending antisemitism, including a new home for the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh; a memorial to the lives lost that Shabbat morning; a dedicated synagogue space where the Tree of Life congregation can return.

Carole Zawatsky: What can we build to enrich Jewish life, to remember this tragedy, and to show the world that we as Jews should not be known only by our killers and our haters, we should be known by our joy, our celebrations, our rituals, our resilience.

Manya Brachear Pashman: The founding director of the Maltz Museum in northeast Ohio, Carole has spent the last 30 years developing programs and education around the Holocaust and genocide, and overseeing projects that explore Jewish heritage from a national perspective and through a local lens. She led our tour.

On October 27, 2018, the congregations of Tree of Life, New Light, and Dor Hadash, which all met in separate areas of the large, multi-story building, had just ushered in the new Hebrew year of 5779. Young students at the Hebrew school had written their own personal Ten Commandments that the teachers had hung on the walls of an upstairs classroom.

Carole Zawatsky: Don't egg your neighbor's house, respect your parent. Every one of them said: Thou shalt not murder. Thou shalt not kill. And those 10 commandments that they wrote in their little student handwriting were thumbtacked up on the wall in the very classroom where the gunman was apprehended.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Before the rebuilding of Tree of Life begins, Carole's no. 1 priority has been preserving the artifacts and remnants that bear witness to what happened. Artifacts include the ark, damaged by bullets, the Torah scrolls, which were remarkably unscathed but for the handles. The list of whose Yahrzeits fell on that day, still on the podium; and, of course, the children's artwork and the wall behind it.

Carole Zawatsky: In the work happening here, and in my role as the CEO, I constantly ask: 'Am I doing it right? Am I doing enough?' And preserving the evidentiary material was incredibly important to me, that we have the physical evidence to bear witness. And as that drywall in the classroom in which the gunman, the murderer, was apprehended, was coming down, I found myself asking: 'Have I saved enough? Will this story be preserved forever? Have we done everything we can?'

Manya Brachear Pashman: Helping Carole with this Herculean effort, is Eric Lidji, the director of the Rauh Jewish Archive at the Senator John Heinz History Center, an affiliate of the Smithsonian Museum, in downtown Pittsburgh. Eric has been collecting documentation and evidence for the archive since October 28, 2018. 

Painted stones left in memory of the victims, hand-made signs, pamphlets, and prayers from vigils, sermons from interfaith services. But also a pair of tennis shoes, a guitar, a framed leaf from the Raoul Wallenberg Tree planted in Israel, a cross affixed with Stars of David -- all individual expressions of a community-wide anguish.

Eric Lidji: Even before I entered the building, we knew that there were going to be pieces of the building that had historic value. Since late 2018, I've been in the building numerous times, dozens of times, doing work there. And it sort of culminated in this opportunity in early June, where we were allowed to go in and identify pieces of the building that became historic that day, and figure out how to get them out.

Manya Brachear Pashman: This is no simple job for anyone involved, no less for Eric, who is accustomed to handling archival materials from generations past, not the present.

Eric Lidji: It's hard for me to disentangle the work of pulling these things out of the building with the knowledge that these families that I've come to know and love, that this is sort of directly related to their loved ones passing.

Pittsburgh definitely is not forgetting, it's ever present here. There are people who are healing and doing so in ways that, at least from the outside, are remarkable and very inspiring. And there are people who, I'm sure, have not fully reckoned with it yet. 

The stories that we're used to telling at the archive, they move much slower. You know, when you get records from 75 or 100 years ago, that's in motion too, but it's moving very slowly. And you can kind of sit there and watch it, and understand it. And get some sense of what it might mean. But when you're living through something, it's changing constantly, all around you. And it's responding to things in the world. And it's responding to people's internal resilience and their ability to grow.

When I look out at the community, I see a lot of different stories. People are in a lot of different places. And it's going to be different on a month like this, where we're saying Yizkor. And it's going to be different in the early stages of the trial versus the late stages of the trial. It's assimilated into our lives now, it's a part of our lives.

Manya Brachear Pashman: In 2019, Eric and journalist Beth Kissileff assembled an anthology of raw reflections by local writers about the Tree of Life massacre. It included only one essay by someone inside the building that day: Beth's husband, Rabbi Jonathan Perlman of New Light. Eric also contributed his own essay. He wrote: "I have no special insight into why this attack happened, or why it happened here. I don't know what would have prevented it from happening here or what would prevent it from happening again somewhere else. I don't understand the depth of my sorrow or the vast sorrow of others.

I asked him if four years later he would still write those words.

Eric Lidji: I feel the same way. You know, there's a second half to that paragraph, which is that, I do have the materials and I can describe those. The premise of an archive is that at some point, we'll all be gone. And when we're all gone, our things are what speak for us. And at the moment, there's a lot of witnesses here, emotional witnesses, I mean, who can testify to what this means. 

But there's going to come a time where they won't be there. And our job, I say our, I mean everybody's, our job in the present is to document our experience. So that when we're not here anymore, people in the future have the opportunity to have access to the intensity of the feelings that we had. That ultimately is how you prevent complacency. And so I don't claim any, I don't understand anything in the present. But I do understand the records. And I hope that we're being a good steward and custodian of them so that in the future, people have the opportunity to have access to real human feeling and so that they can really understand what this experience was like for people who were alive today.

Manya Brachear Pashman: The Rauh Jewish Archive has collected and preserved thousands of artifacts and documents, but no physical or intellectual access has been granted yet. Cautious care has been taken to make sure families and survivors are ready and know what's involved in making the materials available to the public. Once that happens, a trove of electronic materials will be uploaded to the newly launched October 27 Archive, which will become the public face of the collection. The electronic catalog will help individuals, schools, and institutions such as Tree of Life to tell the story they're trying to tell. 

Carole Zawatsky: We're the only generation to bear witness to this. The next generation will not bear witness. Their children will not bear witness. We have a moral obligation to ensure that these lives are remembered and memorialized, and that we as Jews and as citizens of this earth remember what hate looks like and work toward a better world. It's all too easy to walk away from what's ugly. And we have to remember. We can't walk away.

Manya Brachear Pashman: The Tree of Life building is now a shell of what it once was. The stained glass windows will soon be removed for safekeeping until the new building is ready to welcome them back. As the demolition crews arrive to remove what's left, Carole's focus has shifted.

Carole Zawatsky: Our focus now is truly on working with our architect, working with the exhibition designer, and forming a new institution. This is an incredibly special moment for us, as we come together and continue to crystallize our mission, our vision, and form this new institution that will be a significant part of the Pittsburgh community, along with the national community.

Manya Brachear Pashman: The architect for the project, Daniel Libeskind, a son of Holocaust survivors who is renowned for his redesign of the new World Trade Center site, has described the spiritual center of the Tree of Life as a Path of Light, which connects and organizes the public, educational, and celebratory spaces.

Carole Zawatsky: We can never as Jews allow ourselves to be defined by our killers. And I'm delighted to be working with Daniel as our architect and his concept of bringing light into the darkness. Vayehi or, let there be light. We have to bring light back to the corner of Shady and Wilkins. And side by side with tragedy, as we have done throughout all of Jewish history, is also celebration. To have baby namings and B'nai Mitzvot. Celebrate Shabbat and celebrate holidays side by side. That this is the most Jewish thing we can do. When the temples were destroyed in Jerusalem, what did we do? We recreate. And that is the strength and resilience of the Jewish people.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Carole also continues to build a multifaith donor base, comprised of foundations and individuals from Pittsburgh and across the country, to raise the $75 million needed to make the reimagination a reality, ideally by 2025. The reasons why donors give vary, but in most cases they're deeply personal.

Carole Zawatsky: The events of 10/27 are personal for everyone. For those people who tell us: I heard the gunshots from my kitchen. I was with my children. From people across the country who experienced a sense of loss of safety. To non-Jews who say: I have to have something to tell my children why some people don't like their friends. What did I do? How did I help be a part of the solution?

Manya Brachear Pashman: For generations, the Jewish people have confronted antisemitism in its many forms. But through it all, the Jewish calendar continues to guide the community through celebrations of life and beauty and wonder. Carole describes it as the bitter and the sweet. 

Carole Zawatsky: I've had on occasion, a Rabbi, a funder: 'How are you doing? How do you get through this?' And for me, there's often a soundtrack in my head. And one of my favorite Hebrew songs is "Al Kol Eleh," and through the bitter and the sweet. To me, it is the definition of Judaism. And it's the definition of what we're doing.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Do you mind sharing a bit of that song with us now? 

Carole Zawatsky: 

Al hadvash ve'al ha'okets
Al hamar vehamatok
Al biteynu hatinoket shmor eyli hatov

Al kol eleh, al kol eleh.

Manya Brachear Pashman: This podcast is dedicated to the 11 lives lost on October 27, 2018:

Joyce Fienberg, 

Richard Gottfried, 

Rose Mallinger, 

Jerry Rabinowitz, 

Cecil Rosenthal, 

David Rosenthal, 

Bernice Simon, 

Sylvan Simon, 

Daniel Stein, 

Melvin Wax, 

Irving Younger. 

May their memories be for a blessing.

All eyes have been on the University of Pennsylvania and the Palestine Writes event, a gathering meant to give voice to Palestinian art, poetry, and literature on campus. However, a number of the speakers, including Roger Waters and Marc Lamont Hill, have well-documented histories of antisemitic statements. 

Maya Harpaz, Vice President of Israel Engagement at Penn Hillel, and Jonah Miller, a reporter for The Daily Pennsylvanian, take you through what unfolded, growing campus antisemitism, defining free speech on campus, and the responsibility of university administrators to protect Jewish students. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Maya Harpaz, Jonah Miller

Show Notes:

Watch:

• Live from Penn: Maya Harpaz of Penn Hillel on Palestine Writes

Read:

• Everything you need to know about the Palestine Writes event at Penn and antisemitism. 

• AJC Campus Library: Resources for Becoming a Strong Jewish Student Advocate

Listen:

• What the UN Needs To Do To Stop Iranian and Russian Aggression

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Maya Harpaz and Jonah Miller:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman, AJC's Senior Director of the Alexander Young Leadership Department, guest hosts this week's conversation with two Jewish college students about a situation on their campus and how they responded. Meggie, take it away. 

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman:  

Thanks, Manya. This past week, it seemed like all eyes were on the University of Pennsylvania in the lead up to the Palestine Writes event. The event was meant to give voice to Palestinian art, poetry, and literature- all of which are quite appropriate and indeed valuable to have on a university campus. However, a number of the announced speakers strayed from the event's purpose and instead have well-documented histories of antisemitic statements.

These include Roger Waters, who was recently described by the U.S. State Department as having a long track record of using antisemitic tropes, after he desecrated the memory of Holocaust victim Anne Frank, compared Israel to the Third Reich, and recently paraded around a stage wearing an SS Nazi uniform during a concert in Berlin.

It also included Marc Lamont Hill, whose public remarks as a CNN commentator called for Israel's eradication. At play were questions around growing campus antisemitism, free speech on campus, and the role of university administrators in preventing such bigotry–particularly with the release in May of the U.S. National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism, and its outsized focus on how antisemitism affects Jewish students on campus. 

To help us break down these events and what unfolded are two Jewish students who experienced this all firsthand and helped drive the course of events. 

Joining me are Maya Harpaz, a junior at Penn, and Vice President of Israel Engagement at Penn Hillel, and Jonah Miller, a junior at Penn, and a reporter for The Daily Pennsylvanian, Penn's student newspaper.

Maya and Jonah, thanks for joining us on People of the Pod. 

Jonah Miller:  

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to our discussion.

Maya Harpaz:  

Yeah, thank you for having us.

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

Great. So with that, let's jump in. So there are many chapters to what happened at Penn, and I think a great deal of misinformation. So let's go back to the beginning. When did Jewish students first hear about the Palestine Writes event, and particularly its speaker lineup? And upon initially learning about it, what were the specific concerns that Jewish students had?

Jonah Miller:  

I think that when I learned about the Palestine Writes event, I learned about it simultaneously with who some of these speakers are. Penn is a large university and institution that has countless events each day, hosted and co-sponsored by numerous different departments and facets of the university. If I had learned about this festival, solely, just about the festival, I would say, you know, great, it's great that this culture, and these literary items are being amplified on campus. Everyone and every culture should have a space on this campus. 

But to learn about at the same time as concerns of antisemitic speakers, that's when I as a Jewish student, started to get a little nervous. Nervous, because how could Penn allow antisemitic speakers to come speak on a campus that is close to 20% Jewish? And even without that high percentage, how could they be invited to speak at all?

Maya Harpaz:  

Yeah, I can touch on that as well. In my role as VP Israel, a big part of that is seeing what events are going on, whether it be related to the Middle East at large, Israel, Palestinians, all of that combined. So I learned about this event A while ago, late July, early August. So before it was really even being spoken about on campus. I was having conversations as the speakers were still being finalized, as marketing materials were still being put out and discussed with a lot of the other student leaders and Hillel staff, about what our approach was going to be to handle this event. 

And how we were going to relay that to the Jewish community at large. So similar to what Jonah said, Jewish students definitely learned about the event and the problematic speakers hand in hand after Hillel started sending out emails about it. And after we sent our letter to the administration and after the DP coverage.

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

So Maya, I want to dive into that approach in the letter that you just raised. At least from the outside, one of the first steps seemed to be a letter drafted by Penn's Jewish student leadership to President Magill, of which you were a signatory, outlining specific steps the community wanted the university to take on. So can you give us some background of how that letter came into being and can you share for our listeners what it outlined for the administration?

Maya Harpaz:  

Yes, so this letter came to be sort of as we were having these conversations over the summer. And then once we got to campus, we all sat down with the presidents of PIPAC, SSI, Tamid, presidents of Chabad. And we sort of sat down and we were like, we know why these speakers and why this event could be problematic for our community. How do we outline that to the administration in a way that is logical and not also attacking of another group's culture. Because that's not what we wanted to do. It wasn't our goal to get this event canceled, it wasn't to blow it up in their faces. It was really just, we have specific concerns, and how do we articulate that? 

So we wrote this letter addressed to the president, the provost, and the dean, and sent it to high-level members of the President's administration, specifically referencing Roger Waters and Marc Lamont Hill. And we asked them to have a meeting with us so we could really sit down and have a conversation, and to make a statement about this event. 

And from my perspective, it was definitely a productive meeting, we voiced our concerns about the speakers, we asked them a lot of questions about what was the process of this event being welcomed on our campus, and they explained how they rented out the space and the head of the NELC department explained the process of co-sponsoring, and we really had an open dialogue about what really happened and how we can improve on that in the future. And then shortly after that, the President released her statement about the event.

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

So Maya, I want to dive into a number of things that you just got at. So one is, and you alluded to this, the letter specifically did not call for the canceling of the event. And from my understanding, that's not something that Hillel was asking for. Can you talk about why that is?

Maya Harpaz:  

Yes. So as Jonah also said, when you learn about just the event as the Palestine Writes Literature Festival, it sounds perfectly normal. Sounds like it's just a group wanting to celebrate their culture and their literature. And our goal was not to cancel that. There was over I think, 120 speakers. And our goal was to call out the ones that were problematic towards our community, not cancel their right to speak, their right to celebrate. 

I'm a big believer in free speech. And I didn't want to ask anyone to cancel something. I know that, I'm sure that we at Hillel and Chabad have events with proud Zionists that have maybe done questionable things or said questionable things in the past too, that maybe even some of our own Jewish students don't agree with. 

But Roger Waters definitely crossed the line for us. And we ended up asking for him to be uninvited and even though he was on Zoom, we were definitely very, very concerned about that, because it definitely crossed the line of our threshold of comfortableness in terms of hate speech, but it wasn't our goal to get this event canceled. And we knew it wasn't a reasonable ask either. It was a huge event that's been in the planning and in the works for a year.

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

And then I want to touch on kind of the tail end of what you just described. So what did come out of that initial letter is President Magill, and her administration, indeed issued an initial statement following that letter, following what you had articulated. And that statement did have a clear condemnation of antisemitism, but it left some unsatisfied with what may not have been in there. So I'm curious from both of you, what was your interpretation of that initial statement? And can you describe what came next, particularly as the national attention started to build around Penn?

Jonah Miller:  

Yeah, I can take this one. So in President Magill's letter, she described antisemitism as antithetical to the values of the University of Pennsylvania, which as a Jewish student was very comforting, reassuring to hear that the president of our university is very clearly against antisemitism. At the same time, she also explained how this is an event that is not being promoted or organized by the university. And at the same time, she also wrote how the university supports the notion of free speech and the free exchange of ideas. 

So I think what you're getting at is that, definitely a condemnation of antisemitism, which is a win. But at the same time, it doesn't really seem like there was much action that was going to be taken from the letter. It was more an acknowledgement that the Jewish voices on campus who have concerns with, as Maya said, a few of the many speakers of this festival, were being recognized, but they were not being acted upon. 

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

So Jonah, I mentioned at the start that you are a reporter for The Daily Pennsylvanian. So from a different lens, shortly before Shabbat and Yom Kippur, it was reported that a member of the Penn community entered Penn Hillel and in essence somewhat ransacked the lobby while also screaming antisemitic vitriol.

So Jonah, can you share, first of all what we know about that, and also what it was like reporting on something that so directly affected your community?

Jonah Miller:  

That's a great question. So in order to walk you through this timeline–to my knowledge, this is still under a form of investigation by the university, and we'll see what comes out in the next few days or weeks. But in terms of the timeline: so last Thursday morning, The Daily Pennsylvanian received information that an individual entered Penn Hillel, so all of a sudden our journalistic gears start turning, and we wanted to reach out to as many sources that have some relation to Penn Hillel, which for those of you listening is kind of the epicenter of Jewish life and culture on Penn's campus. 

So from what we understand now, an individual entered Penn Hillel, as someone was opening the door for early morning services, a member of the Orthodox community at Penn. Entered in to Penn Hillel a few minutes before the building officially opened for the day at 7am. So there was no security guard posted, to my knowledge. And entered the lobby, smashed a podium, flipped over a table, all while reportedly shouting antisemitic speech. 

So that's kind of what we understand was happening. And in terms of how it affected me, as someone who was writing it, I was really passionate and driven to make sure we have the full story. And I think as a journalist, or as an aspiring journalist, it's really important. But at the same time, as someone who I know, people from my community on campus, chances are people from my family or the extended Jewish community, in the Philadelphia area, and across the country might be reading something like this. It was really important to make sure that we had all the facts as strong and robust as possible. 

But at the same time, it was hard typing those words, it was hard typing how someone entered a place that I like to call a home, for me and for the rest of my Jewish community here on campus. So kind of finding that balance was definitely difficult.

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

I can only imagine. And I want to turn to I guess to yet another lens, again with your journalistic hat on. Roger Waters, who Maya alluded to earlier, has a long history and well documented history of antisemitic speech, has, in recent days, basically lashed out at the paper and its coverage. I'm curious what your thoughts are about that and how that is being received by the paper.

Jonah Miller:  

I think that, as campus journalists, it's our duty to be non biased as much as we can. And like I said, really just stick to the facts. We wrote how Penn Hillel was entered by some individual and he was yelling antisemitic speech in a clear and vivid example and trend of rising antisemitism, without a doubt. Roger Waters took this, he actually, I know the video that you're talking about, he said that he was on his way to Penn State, which first of all is not the university that we attend. But he said that he was on his way to Penn State for the Palestine Writes Festival and how the Daily Pennsylvanian commented on his history of antisemitism. 

But like you said, this is well documented, this is not something that we pulled out of thin air and labeled him as having a history of antisemitism. It's there, it's online, for everyone to see. And it's unambiguous. So for him to lash out at student journalists, you know, all students who are trying to do their best and maintain this journalistic integrity and share facts with our campus community members. For him to lash out at us, it's disappointing, but at the same time, we don't want to respond and kind of promote this behavior of his in any way.

Maya Harpaz:  

And something else I'll just add is, he also mentioned in that video that he came to Philadelphia ready to speak, and then was just informed that he couldn't come to campus and posed this whole idea that Penn isn't allowing him to come on campus. And this just happened. And he came all the way here and he's ready to be here. And he wants to show his support for the Palestinian community. But as I mentioned, I've been following this event since over the summer. And I think Penn also commented this in a new article in the DP, that he was never speaking in person, it was always planned that he was going to speak on Zoom. 

So for him now to twist the facts and frame it as our school is his canceling him just as he arrives to speak here was definitely very misleading. Because it was never the intention of the university to have him come in person on our campus due to his extensive history of antisemitism. And he ended up coming onto our campus and rolling his window down, as I'm sure many people saw on the video, to actually articulate to participants of the conference that Penn isn't allowing him to speak.

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

So I want to try and turn to something more positive, which really stems from both of you. I think, to me, what really was so inspiring to see is that instead of simply focusing on the pain, and there was tremendous pain that this caused, Jewish student leaders took a completely different path, rooted in celebrating the vibrancy and the pride of the Jewish community. And this led to the creation of Penn Unity Shabbat, which our own CEO, AJC's CEO Ted Deutch attended in solidarity. 

How did that come into being? And importantly, what was the feeling like in the room on Friday night?

 Maya Harpaz:  

Yeah, so this was sort of in the works from that initial meeting we had, at the beginning of the semester, when we were talking about how we want to respond to this, it was definitely always an idea that we want to have a big gathering. It's right before Yom Kippur, it's right before a very holy weekend for us. Regardless of what's going on on campus, it's important for us to feel that togetherness, and definitely because of that event, even more so. 

So it's been in the works for a bit and then sort of as media attention progressed on the Palestine Writes event, and as we were getting more inquiries from people about what was going on, it became really clear that this needed to be a big event and it had to go beyond just our campus community. We needed to invite leaders like Ted Deutch and leaders from Hillel International to really come and join us and to speak with them and to have their support. And the actual feeling of being in there was really awesome. I've never seen Hillel so packed before. The entire building was full, the first floor and all the rooms on the second floor. I've never seen so many people there. So it was really special.

Jonah Miller:  

To add on, from the perspective of someone who did not have a hand in planning it, but was a proud attendee of this event, you could really feel, like you said, the vibrancy in the room and the energy where you know, in between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur students from all different parts of the Jewish community were really excited to be there. I've been to my fair share of Penn Hillel shabbats. But you know, this time I had seen people who I might not have seen before at one of these events. So I think it was really, you know, I was really proud to be a member of the Jewish community at Penn and to really see people, you know, really just come together.

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

What a way to bring joy to a moment that really could have just focused on the challenge, so that–it's really unbelievable. 

Zooming out, now that you're a few days, just a few days, away from everything. So campus issues affecting Jewish students do get press coverage, but often it is simply within Jewish news outlets, and rarely in the wider press, and certainly rarely for such an extended period of time. What we saw at Penn felt unprecedented, both in the national interest and in the last in coverage. Why do you think it led to such significant coverage? And how did that affect the campus environment at Penn? 

Maya Harpaz:  

I think one reason for that is because of Penn as an institution, as an Ivy League institution, and also as a well-known Jewish institution. Penn has a long history of a very strong Jewish community that's actually been decreasing in size pretty steadily over the years. So I think that was a big reason why we got so much attention. 

I also think because of the way that we responded to it, I think if we decided that we weren't going to say anything, and we were going to let antisemites come onto our campus and spew hate, and we just put our hands up, that there wouldn't have been so much attention. But I think because we pushed back on it, it became this discourse that got a lot of attention. 

I don't even know how to describe it still, because I'm still processing everything that's happened over the last few weeks. But me personally, I'm not a journalist. I'm not usually someone who's ever in the news or speaking to the press. But the amount of attention that that's been on us has really, really been unprecedented. As you mentioned, it's definitely been a bit overwhelming too but I'm also grateful that we've been given a platform to share what's been happening and to bring awareness to it. 

Because we've seen this happen at many other schools that have large Jewish communities and very strong Jewish communities. And I never thought that an event like this would or could happen here. So I've definitely been very appreciative of all of the support that we've gotten.

Jonah Miller:  

At the same time, I think that the incident at Hillel follows a long lasting and unfortunately, growing trend of rising antisemitism. And I think that news outlets picked up on that. Secondly, to give some credit to my amazing team of reporters and copy editors at The Daily Pennsylvanian, I think that our quick and trustworthy coverage at the paper allowed news outlets, national news outlets, to cite us in their own articles. So for instance, this incident that happened at Hillel, I noticed that within 12, 24 hours, it was picked up by Fox News, and CBS News, both of which cited interviews that I myself conducted with students who were at the scene, in their own articles.

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

So connected to that, in addition to the media attention, I think, many Jewish organizations, some of which had little to no relationship with the Jewish community on campus, came to campus with their own ideas of how the situation should be resolved. What advice can you give to Jewish organizations who want to help when a situation arises on campus?

Maya Harpaz:  

The biggest advice that I can give is just talk to us. No campus is the same and although unfortunately a lot of antisemitic incidents happen on a lot of universities, the climate of each campus is very different and the wants and needs of students are very different based off of their campus. So it's definitely important to speak to students before you make an assumption about what they you think they want or make a plan for what can be done and how to solve this issue because it's really us who have a stake in this, obviously the Jewish community at large cares, but it's it's us who have to live this as our reality. Penn is our school. It's also our home. It's our social lives. So it's our everyday lives, we can't escape that.

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

So while the particular event itself may have passed for right now, there is a great deal to do on Penn's campus in the wake of these events. The President has committed to implementing much of the US National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism, of which dozens of AJC recommendations were included. And Penn Hillel itself has dedicated time and resources to educational programming around antisemitism. So as student leaders, what do you want to see next? And importantly, what advice do you have for other Jewish students should something like this happen on their campus?

Maya Harpaz:  

So something that we talked about with members of the administration and things that we want to see next is more–and this is something that President Magill mentioned, as well–is more oversight when hosting events on our campus. When this event came through, it was just listed as the Palestine Writes Literature Festival. And they were like, cool, literature festival, fine. 

But there definitely needs to be more work done to make sure that the lineup of any event is not including someone that is not in line with, as President Magill said, our institutional values. Something else that we discussed is further training for Penn faculty, whether that be residential advisors, or professors, to be trained on how to combat antisemitism and how to identify antisemitism and really introducing that into the other forms of training against hate that faculty go through. And a big longer term goal that I think at some point, maybe in the nearer future than I initially anticipated, is implementing the IHRA definition of antisemitism.

Jonah Miller:  

Hopefully, an incident like this does not happen at the campuses of other Jewish students. But should something happen, my recommendation would be to just remember that our unity can overcome the hate and the vitriol being spouted at us. At the Shabbat together event at Penn Hillel, a Penn alum and someone who's very involved with the Penn community and with the Jewish community, Stuart Weitzman, spoke about how Jews have triumphed over hundreds of years and 1000s of years of banding together. I think that message remains ever-important, to remind ourselves about today. That we really as a community are stronger and can overcome this adversity when it comes right on our doorsteps.

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

What a beautiful note to end on, and I have to say for myself, for us here at AJC, and certainly for the Jewish community at large, the reason we feel so hopeful about the Jewish future is because of Maya, your leadership, Jonah, your leadership, and both the courage and joy and thoughtfulness that you brought to this situation. So for all of us, I just have to say a big thank you.

Jonah Miller:  

Thank you so much, and thank you to AJC for all the work that they're doing for students like us on campuses.

Maya Harpaz:  

Thank you so much for having us. It really means so much to both of us to be able to have our platform and to share what's been going on at Penn.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

If you missed last week's episode, we went behind the scenes at the UN General Assembly with Simone Rodan Benzaquen, the Managing Director of AJC Europe. 

This week, Simone Rodan Benzaquen, Managing Director of AJC Europe, joins us to discuss AJC's leading role in the Jewish community's diplomatic efforts at the United Nations General Assembly. Simone highlights key areas of advocacy, including countering the Iranian threat, addressing antisemitism and anti-Israel bias, advancing the Abraham Accords, and supporting Ukraine against Russian aggression. We also explore the impact of addresses from Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Iran's President Ebrahim Raisi, who have used the UN platform to spread antisemitic and anti-Israel narratives. Simone sheds light on the challenges and progress in shaping international policies on these critical issues.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Simone Rodan Benzaquen

Show Notes:

Test your knowledge:

• About the UN, Israel, fighting antisemitism, and AJC's role

Read:

• AJC Advocacy at UN General Assembly 2023

• Top 5 Things AJC is Tracking at the United Nations General Assembly

• Five Things to Know About President Raisi and Human Rights in Iran and Beyond

• Key Takeaways From President Biden's Address to the UN General Assembly

• Mahsa Amini Protests One Year Later: What is the Current Human Rights Situation in Iran?

Listen:

• Deborah Lipstadt on the Abraham Accords' Impact and the U.S. National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Simone Rodan Benzaquen:

Manya Brachear Pashman:   

All this week, leaders from 193 nations have gathered in New York, addressing the United Nations General Assembly. But there's a lot of action on the sidelines as well. That's where policy experts from the American Jewish Committee do their diplomatic outreach, urging leaders to expand and strengthen ties with Israel, and counter rising antisemitism and extremism. With us to discuss what's been happening on those sidelines is Simone Rodan Benzaquen, Managing Director of AJC Europe. Simone, welcome to People of the Pod.

Simone Rodan Benzaquen:  

Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.

Manya Brachear Pashman:   

So I'll start with Iran. How are we pushing leaders to address the threat from Iran this week?

Simone Rodan Benzaquen:  

So Iran, as you rightly point out, is a really priority issue for us in all of the meetings we've had in particular with on my end with the European leaders, and it's, and our objective is really to make sure that we are countering Iran on all fronts. Of course, there's the nuclear file. 

And so our objective is to push leaders to be aware and really understand that, if that was to happen, we are entering an entirely new world. If we think that the war that Russia has been waging on Ukraine was a game changer for the stability of the world, we have not seen anything yet. So our objective is to really push European and international leaders to really address the issue. 

The second issue is, of course, human rights. We are now a year after the murder of Mahsa Amini, and really the horrible repression that the Iranian regime has committed against its own people. And there has been a time when European international leaders were very, very clear in their support for the Iranian people, and in condemning the Iranian regime and the Islamic Republic. 

But these past months, we've heard a little bit less of that. So our objective is really, has really been to reengage them on that commitment. 

And then third of all, and this is really a very specific issue, particularly in Europe, is the Iran Revolutionary Guard. And so the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Council, the IRGC, is not listed as a terrorist organization in the EU. And that is obviously not normal. First of all, because they have been committing horrible crimes in their own country, because they have been committing terrorist acts across the world. Because they are obviously a key sponsor of terrorism across the world, because of their role also in Ukraine.

They have armed Russia with Iranian drones, they have trained people on the ground. And lastly, and this is for us, very important as the Jewish advocacy organization, they have been threatening Jewish communities across Europe. There are a number of cases that are now very clear, which include in Germany, in the United Kingdom, but also in Greece and in Cyprus, where it's very clear that Iran is threatening Jewish communities and Israelis on European soil. 

Now, Europe for the past years, has made it very clear that it's a key priority for itself to combat antisemitism on the ground and in Europe. And that's a very important commitment. Now, if they're very, very serious about that commitment, they also have to act against the IRGC, which is today a key threat to Jewish communities on the ground. 

So we have been pushing European leaders to take steps to list the IRGC as a terrorist organization. As always, this will take time; it's not going to happen just during the UN General Assembly. But we've made some progress. We have had some very good conversations with a number of European countries and I hope down the line that we will be able to get there.

Manya Brachear Pashman:   

So now what about Hezbollah? Because I know for many years we have pushed leaders at the UN General Assembly to designate Hezbollah, a terrorist organization in its entirety. This campaign has been going on for many years. Is that campaign changing in any way this year?

Simone Rodan Benzaquen:  

No, it's not changing, it continues to be a key priority for us. By the way, the issue is linked, of course, I mean, what is Hezbollah, if not a proxy of Iran, an Iranian state within Lebanon, that is threatening, of course, Israel, but also has been committing terrorist acts across the world. 

So no, it has not changed. We are just trying to link the dots and explain to everybody that everything is linked. We're not there yet. There are a number of countries, as you know Manya, who have taken individual steps in Europe to list Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, because it is blocked on the EU-wide level. 

But you know what, we just celebrated Rosh Hashana. You know, at the end of the day, there is always hope,  particularly for the Jewish people. So we will not be giving up on it and eventually we'll get there.

Manya Brachear Pashman:   

You mentioned the IRGC's role in Ukraine with providing weapons and we heard from Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky this week, warning that Russia was weaponizing essentials like food and energy, not only against Ukraine, but against every country. And I know the UN Human Rights Council created, with AJC's urging, an independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine, which has already determined that Russia is responsible for war crimes. So how are we advancing that conversation on the sidelines this week?

Simone Rodan Benzaquen:  

Listen, on the European side, I would say the conversation is very easy, because Europeans understand that if Russia is allowed to strategically win this war. That means that, though, that they, their countries, that the European Union, as such, will be threatened by Russia. Russia will not stop with Ukraine. President I hesitate always to call him president, but Putin has made it very clear that for him, the biggest catastrophe of the 20th century, is the fact that the Euro that the Soviet Union fell apart. And so he wants to go back to that scenario. 

So Europeans are aware of it, their commitment to Ukraine, is very much there, actually, surprisingly, because many people, when the war started, were very much afraid that that, at the end, you know, there will not be European unity, that there will not be unity in the international community and in the West, in their support for Ukraine, and finally, you know, a year and a half later, we're still there, the United States is committed in supporting Ukraine, the European Union is committed in supporting Ukraine. 

But more needs to be done. We need to be able to provide more help to Ukraine. And again, as you said, especially as Russia is weaponizing every single possible way, whether it's energy, whether it's food, to exert pressure, to make sure that at the end, we are faltering.

Manya Brachear Pashman:   

So I want to switch the focus a little bit from international diplomacy and war to the IHRA working definition. This has been an ongoing conversation with the UN. AJC has been urging the UN and its member countries to use it to develop plans to counter anti semitism. How is that coming up on the sidelines this week? 

Simone Rodan Benzaquen:  

So we've had some very constructive conversations, first of all, a majority of countries now have adopted the working definition of antisemitism. And they've recognized how much an important tool it is to not only to recognize, to define, but also to apply and to combat antisemitism. So it's a very constructive conversation. But we have also had conversations with countries who have not yet adopted the working definition, who would say, we don't have a problem of antisemitism, we don't really have to do it. And after explaining to them how important it is, and what an important tool it has been for countries, and what an important signal also it would send to the world, if they were to adopt the working definition of antisemitism.

I can tell you now, in advance that in a few days, a couple of countries will be announcing that they will be adopting the working definition of antisemitism because of the conversation that we have had with them.

Manya Brachear Pashman:   

The conversation you've been having this week with them, or ongoing over a matter of time?

Simone Rodan Benzaquen:  

Over a matter of time, but that was concluded, specifically here at the UN General Assembly this year.

Manya Brachear Pashman:   

And what about anti-Israel bias? Has that come up? Because I know that has been a blockage for a lot of countries who won't adopt the IHRA working definition, they want to leave the door open for criticism of Israel, but there has been some pretty blatant anti-Israel bias at the UN. And that has really been a priority for AJC to address. How have you been trying to eliminate that kind of chronic one-sidedness that targets Israel? 

Simone Rodan Benzaquen:  

This is, I have to say, Manya, a complicated conversation that we've been having, obviously, for years. As you rightly point out, Israel is treated in a way that no other country is. There is a permanent agenda item at the UN Human Rights Council. There is a disproportionate number of resolutions against Israel compared to any other country in the world. Many countries we are speaking with acknowledge that fact. But often their excuse is that they are working in a multilateral environment and that is therefore complicated, because you always have to come to some sort of compromise. But I have to say that nevertheless, I think we are making progress. 

If you and I had had that conversation 10 years ago, most European, most countries would not have even acknowledged that that was a fundamental problem. That situation today has changed. Many countries do recognize that there is something profoundly discriminatory in that disproportionate targeting of Israel. They just are very slow in finding solutions to that approach.

Manya Brachear Pashman:   

We also heard from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas this week. What do you fear he is communicating? What do you fear that members of the United Nations are hearing from him and taking as truth?

Simone Rodan Benzaquen:  

For years, I think Muhammad Abbas has been really in an endeavor to distort history by denying the link between the Jewish people and the land of Israel. He has engaged on a number of occasions in historical revisionism. He has been engaged in a number of occasions in Holocaust denial and antisemitism, in stereotypes and conspiracy theories. And I think the world needs to wake up to that reality.

I mean, if any other world leader had had that kind of discourse, take away the face of Muhammad Abba, take away the voice of Muhammad Abbas and just neutrally look at what he's been saying over the years, we would not accept that. The world, the Western world, the European Union, the United States, we would not accept that, and rightfully so. 

So why is it that we should continue to accept these kinds of words? European leaders were right, the United States was right, to criticize Mahmoud Abbas, as they have, after his recent antisemitic remarks. But that needs to now apply all the time, we sort of have a bigotry of low expectations on Mahmoud Abbas. I mean, why is it that we consider him somehow not capable of living up to the same standards as everybody else? So I hope that the world will, at some point, wake up, and just expect of the Palestinian Authority and of Muhammad Abbas himself, to accept to have certain rules. He cannot continue to have these kinds of statements. He cannot continue to do the pay for slay, meaning to pay the families of convicted terrorists. He cannot continue to incite hatred in Palestinian schoolbooks. We have to set the same standards for everybody, including for Muhammad Abbas, including for the Palestinian Authority.

Manya Brachear Pashman:   

And do you think the member states realize that or comprehend that and are kind of seeing through his narrative?

Simone Rodan Benzaquen:  

There seems to be the beginning of a process. I don't know if we're there yet. But there seems to be a beginning of the process. I mean, when you have the mayor of Paris, for example, who took away the honorary medal of the city of Paris to Muhammad Abbas, when you have statements that you have never had before, by leaders of the Western world, criticizing Muhammad Abbas. I think we're maybe at the beginning of something new. I just really hope that we're not walking backwards from that, because we just simply cannot go back to that just behaving as if, you know, this wasn't happening. 

Some of it has to do with the fact, with this delusional idea that, you know, if the Palestinian Authority was to fall apart, if Muhammad Abbas was to fall apart and not be president anymore, there would be worse. But still, I mean, this cannot be an argument in not having the same expectations of a leader than of any other leader in the world.

Manya Brachear Pashman:   

So speaking of narratives, the president of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ebrahim Raisi spoke to the general assembly as well, this week. His narrative was that Iran is the model of human rights and justice. Did that surprise you? What surprised you about his sermon, if you will, to the UN?

Simone Rodan Benzaquen:  

No, there is nothing that surprised me, the Butcher of Iran, who is president, the president of the Islamic Republic of Iran, has been lying to everybody's faces, of course, for many years. 

Iran is committing human rights abuses, Iran is imprisoning young people. Every single human rights organization has spoken about it. Every single western country knows it and has said it. They are committing rapes of young women in their prisons. They're abducting the families, including by the way the family of Masah Amini just a few days ago, every single day, and the fact that he is lying once again to the world is despicable. 

What is equally despicable is that the Council of Foreign Relations has intended to host Ebrahim Raisi. There is no way even with people who are asking difficult questions or having difficult conversations with him. That it does anything else then legitimize him and legitimize this terrible, murderous regime. So the only thing that should be done is, really be as tough as possible with this regime, and clearly impose sanctions, condemn, walk out of the room, ignore, but certainly not welcome him with open arms.

Manya Brachear Pashman:   

And do you think the world is buying his narrative? 

Simone Rodan Benzaquen:  

Well, it depends what you mean by the world. But I don't think the western world is buying his narrative at all. I think everybody knows, you know, the reality of things. They know everything that is wrong with the regime. There might be differences in how they think they should be approaching that and they might, by the way, also be differences in perception between some Western countries and ourselves on how we think things should be approached. But nobody is naive about what is actually going on in the country. And the way this person, the Butcher of Iran, is treating his own people.

Manya Brachear Pashman:   

Simone, thank you so much for joining us, and giving us a glimpse of what's been happening there.

Simone Rodan Benzaquen:  

Thank you. 

Ambassador Deborah Lipstadt, the U.S. Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Antisemitism, joins us to discuss how she's settled into her new role and shares insights on the development of the new U.S. National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism, for which AJC has long advocated. Lipstadt, a renowned Holocaust historian and one of Time Magazine's Most Influential People of 2023, also delves into the ways in which the Abraham Accords have contributed to the fight against antisemitism in the Middle East. Additionally, she provides an insider's look into the challenges and progress associated with addressing antisemitism and how the National Strategy factors in. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Deborah Lipstadt

Show Notes:

Go Deeper: 

• Test your knowledge of the National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism 

Read:

• Everything You Need To Know About The U.S. National Strategy To Counter Antisemitism And AJC's Task Force

• Honoring International Antisemitism Envoys AJC David Harris Award

Listen:

• People of the Pod: Hear from America's New Antisemitism Envoy Deborah Lipstadt

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Deborah Lipstadt:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Deborah Lipstadt, US Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Antisemitism is a renowned Holocaust historian, recognized earlier this year as one of Time Magazine's Most Influential People of 2023. She has written eight books, and four years ago, advised the United Nations on its unprecedented report on global antisemitism. In fact, she joined us on this podcast shortly after the report's release. Since then, she has joined the US State Department in a role that for the first time carries the rank of Ambassador. She joins us again this time in our popup Tel Aviv studio. Ambassador, welcome to People of the Pod.

Deborah Lipstadt:

Thank you.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

America's National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism was adopted in May. Your job primarily deals with US Foreign policy to combat antisemitism. But how does this new domestic strategy affect your work?

Deborah Lipstadt:

Well, it affects our work and that certainly I was consulted and worked closely with the White House in the shaping of it, my team played a part in helping to shape it people to reach out to and things like that. And there are over 24 agencies involved including the State Department, we're now looking at all the other national strategies to see best practices, what America could possibly adopt. And of course, informally, I'm the administration's most knowledgeable person on antisemitism. So they turned to me quite often for advice, for ideas, etc.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Okay. All right. Well, so as I said, your role is more international. Do you need a domestic counterpart? Does the United States need a domestic antisemitism czar?

Deborah Lipstadt:

I'm not sure. It's a lot on–the strategy is really run out of the Domestic Policy Council, which until about a week ago, was headed by Ambassador Susan Rice, who was greatly responsible for seeing this thing come to fruition. And we'll see how it works. It's up to them to decide how they want to do it. But I think it's also good that each agency from the usual suspects, as I like to say, homeland security, education, FBI, law enforcement, are involved, but so are so many others. Small Business Administration, Veterans Affairs, Smithsonian, all looking at ways to counter antisemitism, make sure there aren't barriers that are there, whether because of antisemitism or just ignorance.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And second gentleman Doug Emhoff has been certainly--

Deborah Lipstadt:

Even before I was sworn in, after I was confirmed, I was in Washington and he asked me if I would come in and visit with him. We had a wonderful visit. We're in touch all the time. And he really feels this very deeply. And I give him great credit because he could easily have said, Look, I'm the first Jew in this position. First second gentleman. We put up a mezuzah for the residence. We have a Hanukkah party. We have a Seder. We do other things. Don't ask me to take the lead on this. But he's taken the lead. He's traveled all over, he traveled with me to Poland and Germany, where I coordinated a meeting for him with other special envoys, just to give him a sense of what other countries were doing. 

And I think when he and his staff and other people in the White House who were with us saw that, it sort of energized them to say, my God, other countries have taken this really seriously. They're way ahead of us. We have to do something serious as well.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You know, with that in mind, I mean, if you think about it, your predecessors in this position have kind of made it their business to monitor, sound the alarm about antisemitism in Europe, elsewhere around the world. AJC helped convene that group of envoys at the White House.

And so in many ways, the table's turned a little bit in terms of, you know, instead of the United States monitoring and sounding the alarm, these envoys came and advised the United States. Has this kind of mutual mission actually improved the relationship with some of these countries? 

Deborah Lipstadt:

It's improved the relationship tremendously. We really work as a team, not as a team–each one has its own you know, position, certain things one can get involved in certain things. You know, I lurk and watch what's going on, but I'm not involved in it. But one of the first things I did in fact, it was the same day as last year's AJC Global Forum, which was in New York, I think, at Temple Emanuel. And I was on the stage with Katrina von Schnurbein, the amazing EU envoy on Countering Antisemitism and Enhancing Jewish Life. And then she and I left the meeting with Mr. Lottenberg, Fernando Lottenberg, who's the OAS Special Envoy, and we met with a group of us of special envoys met to talk about how we could work together. 

And so we've been meeting and convening. Katrina convened something that the EU others have convened, and then we meet, you know, sometimes we'll meet through the auspices, let's say, we'll be meeting here because many have come for AJC. But it is a government to government when we meet, it's not, convened by someone else. But it's people who speak for their governments coming together, which is quite amazing. 

I've had great predecessors in this job. They're all terrific. And were strong supporters of me taking the position, very excited about it from both sides of the aisle. And I'm very grateful for that. But there are differences. First of all, Congress elevated the position to an ambassador before I was in the picture. 

So it wasn't for me. And that carries weight in the world of protocol. That means you speak for the President. I see what weight it carries. In fact, I was just in conversation with a Republican senator, around the time of the rollout, because I was briefing him about the national strategy. 

And he had been one of those who had pushed for the elevation of it to be an ambassador. And I said, you know, when I first heard you were doing this, I said, Oh, doesn't really matter. I said, I was wrong, you were right. It really enhances the importance, and it shows how America takes this seriously. But my predecessors, certainly amongst the earlier ones, we were the first country to have a position like this. So when something happened in France, and Belgium and Germany, whatever, they would go, and they would say to the government, you know, we take this very seriously, and we think you should take it seriously.

Or if they were taking it seriously, we take this very seriously, and what can we do to help you take it seriously, and say, you have a problem, we've got to address it. And now first of all, I go and I said, we have a problem, because we have acknowledged that exists in our country. And sometimes I don't have to go racing as they might have had to, because there's someone else there. There's a local person, there's a national person there, too. So the fight has become much more coordinated, enhanced, and really raised to a government level in a way that it hadn't been previously.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Are there particular lessons that you can recall from any of your predecessors? Any of the envoys that you've taken to heart and realized.

Deborah Lipstadt:

I spoke to virtually all of them before I took the position. And they each had different advice, and I won't say one or the other, etc. But one the reasons–and I've only been in the job a year, but – building alliances in the State Department. And I'm worried a little bit not because of anything anybody tells me, just natural inclination to worry to be a pessimist so that we can be happily surprised when good things happen or the bad stuff doesn't happen. 

But, would I find compatriots in the State Department, would people see me as you know, an add-on, a niche? Would I be operating off by myself? And that hasn't happened. And it's really been quite amazing. Partially thanks to the advice I've gotten, partially, I think, my own interpersonal connections, but I have built really strong alliances. And I'm not saying I have personally, but people in other offices with other portfolios, see this not as a niche issue. But as a central element of American foreign policy.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

We hear a lot of statistics of incidents of hate crimes each month each year. And I'm curious if that's what matters most. In other words, does the perception of a community also matter whether it's a Jewish community or any other minority community, if that community perceives a rise in hatred against it? Is that enough to amplify our response?

Deborah Lipstadt:

The perception of a community is important, perception of an individual. Sometimes, any community, any individual can see things more dire than they are. But I think if anything, the Jewish community has become more aware of certain incidents and more aware of certain things. Give you an example, New York. I think there were a lot of Jews in New York who didn't take seriously some of the antisemitism encountered by Haredi, Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn, you know, who would walk down the street, get their hat knocked off, or get spat upon. And you could say, Okay, what's the big deal? 

Well, if you're walking down the street, especially walking with your kids and your hat gets knocked off, suddenly you're looking at your father, or your mother gets a little nervous because she's in, you know, other people that she sees people come in and might be dangerous or whatever. And I think now they take that much more seriously. Have that been happening on the Upper West or East Side. We would have been quicker to respond.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you think that that is enough for a government, for example, to amplify a response?

Deborah Lipstadt:

Well, certainly a local government, this was happening in New York, but as it became more national, and there's something else in the strategy addresses this. That government can't really deal with, but it can call out. And that's the normalization of antisemitism. And the strategy speaks very directly in the beginning, when it's something I'm paraphrasing, when politicians, when actors, when rap stars, when sports figures engage in anti semitism and amplifies it in a way that it hasn't been before. Government can't stop them. We have that pesky thing called the First Amendment and we all treasure it. 

Even though sometimes it can make us gnash our teeth, the good comes with the bad, or the bad comes with the good. But the normalization, so with the strategy. And when the strategy was rolled out, I spoke from the podium of the White House, one of the things I said: government can do a lot. 

Congress is already doing a lot and is willing to do more. But it calls for an all hands on deck and it has to be a public, the broader society has to be involved in this fight, not just because of protecting fellow American Jews, fellow citizens, but because as I think as listeners to People of the Pod know well, antsemitism is a threat to democracy. I've been talking about it now someone even said to me, the cliche, and I realized that I had been the one to really popularize it, as the canary in the coal mine of democracy. But it's a warning, it's a warning.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You began your tenure with a tour of the Middle East. Saudi Arabia, Israel, United Arab Emirates, Abu Dhabi, right?

Deborah Lipstadt:

And Dubai. The first stop was Riyadh.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Oh, right. Okay. And in fact, you were just in Abu Dhabi again just a few days ago.

Deborah Lipstadt:

I was for a second time, right. And where I encountered an AJC's delegation. But AJC has been present in Abu Dhabi in the Emirates for a very long time.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I want to talk a bit about those visits and the Abraham Accords, which is another circumstance that has changed. I mean, your immediate predecessor got to benefit a little bit from the Abraham Accords. But I'm curious if those Accords are removing barriers, helping foster relationships. And you know, that will only continue to improve the relationship between Israel and Muslim majority countries but also, their receptiveness to your message for combating antisemitism. 

Deborah Lipstadt:

The Abraham Accords are of prime importance. And they've been wholly embraced by the State Department, this administration, and not only embrace, but I've been encouraged to build on them, in part because we see them as a good thing in terms of fostering relations in the region between Israel and these other Muslim majority countries, but also because we see them as enhancing the Middle East enhancing the economy. I mean, it's a great thing when we all go into Ben Gurion Airport and we look up and there's the flight to Atlanta and right in front of it's a flight to Abu Dhabi, you know, or the flight to Detroit, Dubai , you know, it's some people say it's Mashiach, it's the time of the Messiah in that sense. 

The Abraham house in Abu Dhabi, which is a mosque, a church and synagogue is magnificent, of course, that's not part of the Abraham accords. So that wasn't, that was generated in 2018, with a visit of Pope Francis to Abu Dhabi, who said, Let us build the church and a mosque, and it was the leadership of the Emirates that said, let's build a synagogue, to make it a complex of the Abraham House, of the Abrahamic faith. So and then of course, Morocco, which refers to its normalization because it's been doing this for quite a while, Morocco that expects 400,000 Israeli tourists this year. I think last year it had 225,000. And then it's just you know, everywhere. And all those things are good things. And then there are countries which are not yet and I've used not yet euphemistically, part of these things, but see them as working and see them as operating. And I think they're very important.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And do you do feel that they are perhaps more receptive to your message and to listening to what you have to say? 

Deborah Lipstadt:

Yes, of course, I mean, I think even you know, when I went to Riyadh, to Saudi Arabia, I had meetings with high ranking officials, now you can show up and you can meet with the Minister of, I don't know, keeping the paint dry or something like that. Or you can meet with higher level ministers and I met with high level ministers, very productive meetings. And one of my messages was, look, there is a geopolitical crisis in this region, we're well aware that, my country is well aware of it. I work for a government that has hundreds of people actively engaged in addressing this issue. 

But that's something in many respects separate and apart from prejudice, and from hatred. And the example, I had this interesting encounter in either Riyadh and Jeddah with an older imam who knew what was meeting with me and he knew what my, what my status was on my remit, was my portfolio was and he said, If Israel solved the Palestinian crisis, there'd be no antisemitism. 

So there was a part of me that thought, I think there was antisemitism before there was a Palestinian crisis, I think there was antisemitism, for those in Israel, I think there was antisemitism, Zionism, you need to go back and back and back. But I didn't think that was going to get me anywhere, you know, putting it on my professorial hat, my mortar board as we do at graduation and lecturing him on that. So instead, I said to him, after 9/11, in my country, there was a surge, not of Islamophobia, but Islamic hatred. And as you will remember, I'm sure, there was an attempt at one point to build a Muslim community center, opposite Ground Zero, where the World Trade Center had been. 

And in fact that the group that was building it consulted with the Jewish community center of Manhattan, you know, how, what's your experience? What room? Did you build enough? Should we have a gym, swimming pool, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And whatever body whether it was the city council or whatever in New York. New York, the polyglot capital of the United States, refused permission, because they said to build the Muslim community center, adjacent to Ground Zero, when it was Muslims that had destroyed the buildings and murdered the people there, would be an insult. And many of us thought that was wrong. That was prejudice. And I said, why should Muslims in lower Manhattan, a woman who wants a good place for her children to learn about their tradition, or to have an Iftar or whatever it might be a man to go to pray or whatever? 

Why should they be denied that right, because other Muslims had destroyed and attacked the buildings? And the man said to me, you're absolutely right. It was prejudice. I said, well, to say that antisemitism is solely dependent on what Israel does or doesn't is the same thing. And he got very quiet. I don't think I changed his mind. But he stopped arguing. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you see any progress toward people understanding it more as a territorial conflict?

Deborah Lipstadt:

I think so. I hope so. I think it's a continuing, it's not like you get to a point and then well, we're at this point. Now we get to the next point, you know, like I used to lift 20 pounds, I can lose 30 pounds, you know, it goes back and forth. It goes back and forth, depending on the situation. It's a volatile process.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you think that getting them to understand it as a territorial conflict would actually fulfill part of your role in terms of combating antisemitism?

Deborah Lipstadt:

Yes, absolutely. But I think it's also necessary not to do things that are going to aggravate or not to do things that are going to make it harder for some of these countries to follow through with the Abraham Accords, so it cuts both ways.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In May, you and Ambassador Hood attended the annual Lag Ba'omer Festival at the El Ghriba synagogue.

Deborah Lipstadt:

In Djerba, Tunisia.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

The island of Djerba. Tunisia is one of dozens of Arab countries where Jews were forced out and displaced. And I'm curious if you could reflect a little on the situation of Jews in the Middle East and North African countries.

Deborah Lipstadt:

Tunisia is a different story than Morocco, different story than the Emirates, then Bahrain. In that it does have a very small Jewish community. I think there are 1300 Jews in Djerba, been there, hundreds, thousands you know, years. And it's much more a community in Tunis than in a number of other places. But this festival has been going on for quite a while. And it was really reasserting itself after COVID, after an attack about 20 years ago on the festival. And it was so promising. And when I heard that Ambassador Hood, our American ambassador in Tunis was going, I said, you want company, he said, I'd love it. So we went together. 

We visited the school there that is funded by and supported by the Joint American Jewish joint distribution committee, the joint, the JDC, one of the little students showed them how to draw an aleph. It's was very poignant. And we had a wonderful time. And then we went to the festival that night. And it was joy. The night before the deputy minister from the government catered a kosher meal for us, a kosher feast for many of the foreign representatives who were there. And we went to the festival and it was just joyous and we just loved it. We were so happy and meeting people and seeing people and meeting old friends and etc. 

And people are the American ambassadors here, which was very exciting. And we stood in a place and I noticed that our security guards were pretty tight security because of course Americans and back to two ambassadors and personnel from American Embassy in Tunis. We're getting nervous I said, it should relax. 24 hours later precisely in that same place, there was a shooting and two guards were killed. Two Jewish one French, Tunisian and once one Israeli Tunisian, were murdered. So it's very sober. Very, very sobering. And Tunisia was that in the beginning, what we say reluctant to acknowledge this as an anti semitic act they talked about as criminality, they talked about it as terrorism. So Ambassador Hood and I together, not together with, but also with president Macron, and the German Foreign Minister, all said this is antisemitism plain and simple.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And swayed them, turned?

Deborah Lipstadt:

Oh, well, I don't know if we swayed them, but we got them to, he met with the President and met with the chief rabbi. And they changed a little bit, but sometimes it's criminality. Sometimes someone gets mugged on the street, and doesn't matter what they are who they are. But when this guy shot, he was on guard at a naval base. He shot his fellow guard, took a car and drove half hour across the island, to the synagogue, to attack the synagogue. And he didn't say, Oh, they're a crowd of people. I mean, he knew where he was going. And he knew what he was doing.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

My last question is, some listeners might not realize that there is actually a separate Special Envoy for Holocaust issues.

Deborah Lipstadt:

That's right, Ellen Germain.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Your colleague Ellen Germain. Given the rise of Holocaust distortion, trivialization, your candidate, the loss of survivors, how much of what you do now intersects with her work?

Deborah Lipstadt:

Well, we're very careful. I mean, she's really handling Holocaust reparations issues, property reparations, not that we get directly involved, but in urging countries to address these things. But there's not that much overlap. But there's a great deal of cooperation with us, you know, times traveling together, working together, the more the more.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Are their priorities that you can see for implementing the National Strategy since we started talking about it.

Deborah Lipstadt:

I think there are so many things in there that can be done large and small. I urge people to download it. Maybe you can put the link on your website. It's downloadable. It's 60 pages, read the whole thing. thing. I have to tell you, I knew it as it was emerging. But at one point when I saw a draft of it, and they asked me to go over it, I was abroad doing it in another country. So complicated. But of course, as I began to read it without going into the specifics even have different issues. I was deeply moved. 

Because I don't like to correct my boss, otherwise known as the President of the United States. But when he spoke about it at the White House, he called it the most momentous comprehensive plan the American government has ever addressed and he was wrong. It was the first comprehensive plan that the American government has ever addressed. 

Of course, when there've been tragedies and presidents from both sides of the aisle, from all perspectives have condemned, have responded, America has responded. Law enforcement has responded. But this is the first time that the United States government is taking the bull by the horns and saying, What can we do to address this scourge? 

And as I said, from the podium of the White House when it was rolled out, probably making history because it's the first time a mishna was quoted from the White House or talmud was quoted from the White House. I quoted from the verse from ethics of the elders, pirkei avot – lo aleicha hamlacha ligmor, v'lo ata ben chorin livatel mimenu. You're not obligated to complete the task, but you're not free from starting, from engaging in it. The United States government has now seriously engaged in it.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, thank you so much, Ambassador.

Deborah Lipstadt:

Thank you. 

"The Jewish voice must be heard, not because it's more right or less right, but it's there. The suffering is there, the grief is there, and human grief is human grief."

As Jews around the world mark Tisha B'Av, we're joined by Columbia University professor and award-winning poet Owen Lewis, whose new collection, "A Prayer of Six Wings," offers a powerful reflection on grief in the aftermath of October 7th.

In this conversation, Lewis explores the healing power of poetry in the face of trauma, what it means to be a Jewish professor in today's campus climate, and how poetry can foster empathy, encourage dialogue, and resist the pull of division.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• The Forgotten Exodus: Untold stories of Jews who left or were driven from Arab nations and Iran

• People of the Pod: 

• Latest Episodes: 

• An Orange Tie and A Grieving Crowd: Comedian Yohay Sponder on Jewish Resilience

• From Broadway to Jewish Advocacy: Jonah Platt on Identity, Antisemitism, and Israel

• Sexual Violence as a Weapon of War: The Dinah Project's Quest to Hold Hamas Accountable

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Transcript of the Interview:

Owen Lewis:  

Overheard in a New York Restaurant.

I can't talk about Israel tonight. 

I know. 

I can't not talk about Israel tonight. 

I know. 

Can we talk about . . .

Here? Sure. Let's try to talk about here.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

On Saturday night, Jews around the world will commemorate Tisha B'av. Known as the saddest day on the Jewish calendar, the culmination of a three week period of mourning to commemorate several tragedies throughout early Jewish history. 

As a list of tragedies throughout modern Jewish history has continued to grow, many people spend this day fasting, listening to the book of Lamentations in synagogue, or visiting the graves of loved ones. Some might spend the day reading poetry. 

Owen Lewis is a Professor of Psychiatry in the Department of Medical Humanities and Ethics at Columbia University. But he's also the award-winning author of four poetry collections which have won accolades, including the EE Cummings Prize and the Rumi Prize for Poetry. 

His most recent collection, A Prayer of Six Wings documents in verse his grief since the October 7 terror attacks. Owen is with us now to talk about the role of poetry in times of violence and war, what it's been like to be a Jewish professor on the Columbia campus, and a Jewish father with children and grandchildren in Israel. And also, how to keep writing amid a climate of rising antisemitism. Owen, welcome to People of the Pod.

Owen Lewis:  

Thank you so much, Manya.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So you opened with that short poem titled overheard in a New York restaurant. I asked you to read that because I wanted to ask whether it reflected how you felt about poetry after October 7. 

Did you find yourself in a place where you couldn't write about Israel, but yet you couldn't not write about Israel?

Owen Lewis:  

Among the many difficult things of that First Year, not only the war, not only the flagrant attacks on the posters of the hostages one block from where I live, 79th and Broadway, every day, taken down every day, put back up again, defaced. It was as if the war were being fought right here on 79th and Broadway. 

Another aspect that made this all so painful was watching the artistic and literary world turn against Israel. This past spring, 2000 writers and artists signed a petition, it was published, there was an oped about it in The Times, boycotting Israeli cultural institutions. 

And I thought: artists don't have a right to shut their ears. We all need to listen to each other's grief, and if we poets and artists can't listen to one another, what do we expect of statesmen? Statesmen, yeah, they can create a ceasefire. That's not the same as creating peace. And peace can only come when we really listen to each other.

To feel ostracized by the poetry community and the intellectual community was very painful. Fortunately, last summer, as well as this past summer, I was a fellow at the Yetzirah conference. Yetzirah is an organization of Jewish American poets, although we're starting to branch out. And this kind of in-gathering of like-minded people gave me so much strength. 

So this dilemma, I can't talk about it, because we just can't take the trauma. We can't take hearing one more thing about it, but not talk about it…it's a compulsion to talk about it, and that's a way to process trauma. And that was the same with this poetry, this particular book. 

I feel in many ways, it just kind of blew through me, and it was at the same time it blew through me, created this container in which I could express myself, and it actually held me together for that year. I mean, still, in many ways, the writing does that, but not as immediately and acutely as I felt that year. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

This book has been praised as not being for the ideological but for the intellectually and emotionally engaged. So it's not it's not something that ideologically minded readers will necessarily be able to connect to, or is it actually quite the opposite? 

Owen Lewis: 

Well, it's very much written from the gut, from the experience, from in a sense, being on the ground, both in Israel and here in New York and on campus, and trying to keep a presence in the world of poetry and writers. So what comes from emotion should speak to emotion. There are a few wisps of political statements, but it's not essentially a politically motivated piece of writing. 

I feel that I have no problem keeping my sympathies with Israel and with Jews. I can still be critical of aspects of the government, and my sympathies can also be with the thousands of Palestinians, killed, hurt, displaced. I don't see a contradiction. I don't have to take sides. 

But the first poem is called My Partisan Grief, and it begins on October 7. I was originally going to call the bookMy Partisan Grief, because I felt that American, Jewish, and Israeli grief was being silenced, was being marginalized. And I wanted to say, this is our grief. Listen to it. You must listen to this. It doesn't privilege this grief over another grief. Grief is grief. But I wanted ultimately to move past that title into something broader, more encompassing, more humanitarian.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

And did that decision come as the death toll in Gaza rose and this war kept going and going and the hostages remained in captivity, did that kind of sway your thinking in terms of how to approach the book and frame it? 

Owen Lewis: 

Yes, but even more than those kind of headlines, which can be impersonal, the poetry of some remarkable Palestinian poets move me into a broader look. Abu Toha was first one who comes to mind Fady Joudah, who's also a physician, by the way. I mean his poetry, I mean many others, but it's gorgeous, moving poetry. 

Some of it is a diatribe, and you know, some of it is ideological, and people can do that with poetry, but when poetry really drills down into human experience, that's what I find so compelling and moving. And that's what I think can move the peace process. I know it sounds quite idealistic, but I really think poetry has a role in the peace process here.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

I want to I want to unpack that a little bit later. But first, I want to go back to the protests that were roiling Columbia's campus over the past year and a half, two years. What was it like to be, one, writing this book, but also, teaching on campus as a Jewish professor? 

Owen Lewis: 

Most of my teaching takes place up at the Medical Center at 168th Street. And there I have to say, I didn't feel battered in any way by what was happening. I had a very shocking experience. I had a meeting that I needed to attend on, or that had been scheduled, I hadn't been quite paying attention. I mean, I knew about the encampments, but I hadn't seen them, and I come face to face with a blocked campus. I couldn't get on the campus.

And what I'm staring at are signs to the effect, send the Jews back to Poland. I'm thinking, Where am I? What is this? I mean, protest, sure. I mean we expect undergraduates, we expect humans, to protest when things really aren't fair. But what did this have to do…why invoke the Holocaust and re-invoke it, as if to imply the Jews should be punished? All Jews. 

And what it fails to account for are the diversity of Jewish opinion. And you know, for some Jews, it's a black or white matter, but for most thinking Jews that I know, we all struggle very much with a loyalty to Israel, to the Jewish people, to the homeland and larger humanitarian values. So that was quite a shock.

And I wrote a piece called "The Scars of Encampment," in which I say, I can't unsee that. " And I go to campus, and, okay, it's a little bit more security to get onto campus. It's a beautiful campus. It's like an oasis there, but at the same time, I'm seeing what was as if it still is. And in a way, that's the nature of trauma that things from the past just roil and are present with almost as much emotion as when first encountered.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So did you need to tune out those voices, or did that fuel your work?

Owen Lewis: 

No, that fueled my work. I mean, if anything, it made me feel much more, a sense of mission with this book. And a commitment, despite criticism that I may receive, and no position I take is that outlandish, except to sympathize with the murdered on October 7th, to sympathize with their families, to resonate with what it must be like to have family members as hostages in brutal, brutal conditions. Not knowing whether they're dead or alive. So I really felt that the Jewish voice must be heard, not because it's more right or less right, but it's there. The suffering is there, the grief is there, and human grief is human grief.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Owen, if you wouldn't mind reading another poem from the collection. Of course, many of us remember the news out of Israel on Thanksgiving Day 2023, right after October 7th. And this poem is titled, "Waiting for the Next Release, Reported by the New York Times, November 23 2023".

Owen Lewis: 

Waiting For the Next Release,

Reported N.Y. Times, Nov. 23, 2023 

Maybe tomorrow, if distrust 

doesn't flare like a missile, 

some families will be reunited. 

How awful this lottery of choice;

Solomon would not deliberate.

Poster faces always before my eyes,

Among them, Emma & Yuli Cunio. 

Twins age 3, Raz Katz-Asher, age 4,

Ariel Bibas, another four year old. 

What do their four year old minds make 

of captivity? What will they say?

What would my Noa say? 

What will the other Noas say? 

Remembering Noa Argamani, age 26,

 thrown across the motorcycle 

to laughter and Hamas joy.

I have almost forgotten this American day, 

Thanks-

giving,

With its cornucopian harvests, 

I am thinking of the cornucopian 

jails of human bounty. 

(What matter now who is to blame?)

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Really beautiful, and it really captures all of our emotions that day. You have children and grandchildren in Israel, as I mentioned and as you mentioned in that poem, your granddaughter, Noa. So your grief and your fear, it's not only a collective grief and fear that we all share, but also very personal, which you weave throughout the collection. 

In another poem, "In a Van to JFK", you talk about just wanting to spend one more hour with your family before they fly off to Israel. And it's very moving. 

But in addition to many of the poems, like the one you just read, they are based on and somewhat named for newspaper headlines, you said that kind of establishes a timeline. But are there other reasons why you transformed those headlines into verse?

Owen Lewis: 

Yes, William Carlos Williams in his poem Asphodel, says, and I'm going to paraphrase it badly. You won't get news from poems yet, men die every day for wanting what is found there. And I think it's a very interesting juxtaposition of journalism and poetry. And I mean, I'm not writing news, I'm writing where my reflections, where my heart, goes in response to the news, and trying to bring another element to the news that, you know, we were confronted. 

I mean, in any time of high stress, you swear off – I'm not watching any more TV. I'm not even gonna look at the newspaper. And then, of course, you do. I can't talk about Israel today. I can't not talk about it. I can't read the paper. I can't not read the paper. It's kind of that back and forth. But what is driving that? And so I'm trying to get at that next dimension of what's resonating behind each one of these headlines, or resonating for me. I mean, I'm not claiming this is an interpretation of news. It's my reaction, but people do react, and there's that other dimension to headlines.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

That seems like it might be therapeutic, no?

Owen Lewis: 

Oh, totally, totally. You know, I'm very fortunate that having started a career in medicine, in psychiatry, and particularly in child and adolescent psychiatry. I always had one foot in the door academically. I spent, you know, my life as, I still teach, but I'm very fortunate to have, maybe 10+ years ago, been introduced to a basically a woman who created the field of Narrative Medicine, Rita Sharon. And now at Columbia in the medical school, we have a free-standing Department of Medical Humanities and Ethics, of which she's chairman. 

So I've had the fortune of bringing psychiatry and medicine and writing together in a very integrated way. And yes, writing is therapeutic, especially, I could say in medicine, which has given itself over to electronic medical record keeping, but our whole society is moving towards the electronic. And what happens when you sit and write, and what happens when you then sit and read, you reflect. Your mind engages in a different way that is a bit slower than the fast pace of electronic communications and instant communications and instant thinking. And now with AI, instant analysis of any situation you want to feed data from. 

So that's sorely lacking in the human experience. And the act of writing, the act of reading has huge therapeutic values, huge salutary benefits for humans in general, but particularly in times of stress. In a lot of work on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, finding an outlet, an artistic outlet, it doesn't have to be writing, but that's often a way of transcending the trauma. 

And medicine is filled with trauma. People trying to come to terms with acute illnesses, chronic illnesses. Doctors and caregivers trying to come to terms with what they can and can't do. And you know, we're coming up against limitations. But how do you make peace with those limitations? And it's not that it's a magical panacea, but it's a process of engagement, not only with the subject, but with yourself in relation to the subject.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

I mean, I imagine dialogue is really the healthiest way of conversation and speaking through and interacting with a topic. And so I would imagine poetry, or, as you said, any art form, responding to news reports, it makes that a two way conversation when you're able to process and it's not just the headlines shouting at you, you're actually interacting and processing it by writing and reaction, or painting and reaction, whatever you choose to do.

Owen Lewis: 

Exactly.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

You have said that poetry can serve a purpose during times of war. Is this one of the purposes to to be therapeutic or are you talking more in terms of what statesmen could learn from it? 

Owen Lewis: 

Well, yes, of course, what statesmen could learn from it, but it's human nature to want to take sides. I mean, that's kind of just what we do. But I think we can always do better than that. So I'm really talking about the people. I mean, there are also many Jews who are so angry at Israel that they can't listen to the story of Jewish grief. They should be reading mine and others poetries from this era. I wish the Palestinian poets were. I wish the Palestinian people. I mean, of course, in their current situation, they don't have time when you're starving, when you're looking for your next glass of fresh water. You don't have time for anything beyond survival. 

But once we get beyond that, how long are these positions going to be hardened. I mean, I think when the people of all sides of the dilemma really listen to the others, I mean, they're, I mean, if, unless as Hamas has expressed, you know, wants to push Israel into the sea, if Israel is going to coexist with the Palestinian people, whether they're in a nation or not in a nation, each has to listen to the other. 

And it's, you know, it's not one side is right, one side is wrong. It's far too complex a history to reduce it to that kind of simplicity. And I think poetry, everyone's poetry, gets at the complexity of experience, which includes wanting to take sides and questioning your wanting to take sides and moving towards something more humanitarian. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

You said earlier, you recommend Abu Toha, Fady Joudah, two Palestinian poets who have written some beautiful verse about– tragically beautiful verse–about what's happening. But there have been some really deep rifts in the literary world over this war. I mean, as you mentioned before, there was a letter written by authors and entertainers who pledged to boycott Israeli cultural institutions. Some authors have refused to sell rights to their books to publishers in Israel. So why not reciprocate? And I know the answer. I think you've already addressed it pretty well. What's wrong with that approach?

Owen Lewis: 

In any conflict, there are at least three sides to the conflict. I mean, claims to nationhood, claims to who shoved first, who. I mean, you don't entangle things by aggressively reacting. I mean, if we learned anything from Mahatma Gandhi, it's what happens when we don't retaliate, right? And what happens when we go the extra mile to create bridges and connections. 

There are a host of people in Israel who continue to help Palestinians get to medical facilities, driving them back and forth, working for peace. I mean, there's a Palestinian on the Supreme Court of Israel, and well, he should be there. You know, that's the part of Israel that I am deeply proud of. So why not retaliate? I think it entrenches positions and never moves anything forward.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So have you gotten any negative feedback from your writing colleagues?

Owen Lewis: 

Some cold shoulders, yes. I mean not nothing overtly. I haven't been slammed in a review yet. Maybe that's coming. But when I publish pieces, I tend not to look at them. I had an oped in the LA Times. I've had some other pieces, you know, that precipitates blogs, and I started to read them. 

And the first blog that came off of the the LA Times oped was, God, is he an opportunist, just taking advantage of having a daughter in Israel? And trying to make a name for himself or something. And I said, You know what, you can't put yourself out and take a position without getting some kind of flack. So occasionally, those things filter back, it's par for the course.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Right, not really worth reading some of those. You included Midrash in this book. You also spelled God in the traditional sense in the poems. Why did you choose to do that?

Owen Lewis: 

Well, I felt it honors a tradition of Jewish writing. It mean we have yud, hey, vav, hey, you know, which in English comes down as Yahweh, but it's unpronounceable. The name of God is unpronounceable. And, you know, yud, hey, vav, hey is just a representation. It isn't God's name. And there's a tradition that the name of God, when it's written down, can't be destroyed. And it's a way of honoring that tradition. Millennium of Jewish writers, you know, it's similar to say Elokim, instead of Elohim when the text is written.

To sort of substitute. We know what we're talking about, but really to honor tradition, to pay respect and sort of to stay in the mind frame that, if there is a God, he, she, they, are unknowable. And somehow it creates, for me, a little bit of that mystery by leaving a letter out. It's like, G, O, D, seems more knowable than G-d. It's leaving that white space right for something bigger, grander, and mysterious, for the presence of that  right in the word itself.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

And what about including Midrash?

Owen Lewis:

That's a very interesting question. You know Midrash for me, when you steep yourself in traditional Midrash, there's stories that exemplify principles and they fill in gaps. I mean, some of the most important. I mean, we have this notion of Abraham breaking the idols of his father before he left. No. That's Midrash, thats not in the Torah. And yet, nine out of ten Jews will say that's in the Torah, right? So, it kind of expands our understanding of the traditional text.

But it also very much allows a writer to creatively engage with the text and expand it. It's like a commentary, but it's a commentary in story, and it's a commentary in terms that evoke human responses, not necessarily intellectual responses. So frankly, I think it's every Jews' responsibility to write Midrash. That reinvigorates the stories, the texts, and the meanings, and then we write midrashes upon midrashes. And you know, we get a whole community buzzing about a single story.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Which is very much what you've done with this collection, you know, writing poetry in response to news stories and engaging it in that way. It's very Jewish response, I would argue. 

Do you observe Tisha B'av?

Owen Lewis: 

You know what I do. You're gonna laugh. My grandmother always warned us, don't go in the water on Tisha B'av, the sea will swallow you up. So I'm a big swimmer. I love swimming. I don't swim on Tisha B'av, because I hear my grandmother's voice, I'm going to be swallowed up.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

If you could please wrap up this conversation by sharing a poem of your choice from your latest collection.

Owen Lewis: 

A poem I love to read again starts with a headline.

2000 Pound Bombs Drop,

Reported N.Y. Times, Dec,, 22 2023.

In Khan Younis, the call to prayer 

is the call of a dazed Palestinian child

crying baba, standing at the brim

of a cavernous pit of rubble

biting his knuckles–baba, baba . . . 

It's so close to the abba of the dazed 

Israeli children of Be'eri, Kfar Azza.

There is no comfort. From his uncles

he's heard the calls for revenge–

for his home and school, for his bed 

of nighttime stories, for his nana's

 whisper-song of G-d's many names.

His Allah, his neighbor's Adonai, 

cry the same tears for death 

and shun more blood. No miracle these

waters turning red. Who called forth

 the fleets of avenging angels? By viral post:

Jewish Plagues on Gaza! A firstborn lost, 

then a second, a third. What other plagues 

pass over? Hail from the tepid sky?

From on high it falls and keeps falling. 

Though we've "seen terrible things,"

will you tell us, Adonai, Allah, tell us–

do You remember the forgotten promise?

From the pile once home of rubble stone,

a father's hand reaching out, baba, abba

crushed by the load. We know the silence 

of the lost child . . . G-d "has injured us

but will bind up our wounds . . ." Mothers 

Look for us, called by the name yamma, calling 

the name imma. Our father of mercy, not the god

of sacrifice. Our many crying heads explode.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Owen Lewis, thank you so much for talking to us about how this book came about and for sharing some of these verses.

Owen Lewis:  

Thank you so much.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

If you missed last week's episode, be sure to listen to my conversation with Israeli comedian Yohay Sponder on the sidelines of AJC Global Forum 2025. Hear how his Jewish identity shapes his work, how his comedy has evolved since the Hamas terror attacks, and what he says to those who try to silence him.

As we mark the third anniversary of the Abraham Accords, significant progress has been made in deepening Arab-Israeli engagement. With us this week is Sen. Joni Ernst (R-IA), a founding member of the Senate Abraham Accords Caucus. Ernst joins guest host Benjamin Rogers, AJC's Director for Middle East and North Africa Initiatives, to reflect on the achievements of the landmark deal, its importance to the United States, speculation over Saudi Arabia, and the crucial role of the Senate in advancing peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Joni Ernst

Show Notes:

Engage:

• How much do you know about Abraham Accords? Take our quiz and put your knowledge to the test!

Read:

• The Abraham Accords, Explained

Listen:

• Meet 3 Women Who are Driving Change in the Middle East

• 'Golda': Behind the Scenes with Israeli Director Guy Nattiv on the 1973 Yom Kippur War

• Noa Tishby on the Abraham Accords: The Middle East Realizes Israel is Not the Enemy

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Joni Ernst

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

As an organization, AJC has been engaged in the Middle East for more than 70 years. In fact, a senior AJC delegation first traveled to Morocco in March 1950. Since then, there have been several more milestones. AJC's own Jason Isaacson participated in the Madrid Conference in 1991, a historic effort by the international community to revive the Israeli-Palestinian peace process; and AJC opened its first Arab world office in Abu Dhabi in 2021.

This week, Benjamin Rogers, AJC's Director for Middle East and North Africa Initiatives, explores one of the most significant developments in the decades-long Arab-Israeli conflict – The Abraham Accords. The conversation marks the Accords third anniversary on September 15. Benjy, the mic is yours. 

Benjamin Rogers: 

Thank you so much, Manya. And I remember the day well, I had been in the Gulf just a few months prior December 2019, talking about these issues, talking about normalization, talking about cooperation. But to see the President of the United States, the Prime Minister of Israel, the foreign ministers of the UAE and Bahrain, on the White House lawn, signing an agreement of friendship, an agreement of cooperation. It was an electrifying moment. As we prepare to celebrate the third anniversary of what is possible,when Israelis and Arabs come together and set aside their differences. I can think of no better person to help us reflect on this moment than our guests today. It is my honor to welcome Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa, founding member of the Abraham Accords Caucus to our program today. Senator, thank you so much for being here.

Joni Ernst: 

Of course, it is an honor, a privilege and a pleasure to be with you today. I'm celebrating as well, I think it's a phenomenal achievement for the United States and for our friends in Israel and those Arab nations.

Benjamin Rogers: 

And I think that's a great starting place for our conversation. Share with us a little bit about your story. What was your reaction when you learned of these agreements? How did that translate to saying, Hey, I'm going to work with my colleagues. I'm going to sit down with Senator Lankford, Senator Rosen, Senator Booker, and we're going to be the founding members of the Senate Abraham Accords caucus?

Joni Ernst: 

And it goes back quite a ways. My own personal journey, I had served in the Iowa Army National Guard and had deployed to the Middle East for Operation Iraqi Freedom and, and having that experience serving in our United States Armed Forces, we have the great privilege and honor of serving with many members from other countries as well. And we have an understanding of those nations and what they're trying to achieve and how we can promote stability in certain regions. So from that basis, then I served in the Iowa State Senate, and when you think of Iowa and Israel as maybe not a natural connection, but we have a huge Christian community across the state of Iowa that is very supportive of our Jewish brothers and sisters in Israel.

And so from that platform of the Senate, I was able to move into the United States Senate with a broad basis, not only the military perspective, but then also how Iowa and Israel can come together collaborate on things like agriculture, cultural exchanges, and with that basis, then finding other members of the Senate that had similar goals and objectives. And that came together really, with the incredible, really the incredible advent of the Abraham accords. And so we were able to start the caucus, those of us that have very strong feelings about stability in that region and partnership in that region. So coming together with senators, Rosen and Volker and Lankford, it was a really wonderful way for us to celebrate the Abraham Accords, and bring others from the United States Senate and House into that fold as well.

Benjamin Rogers: 

Amazing. I was struck by what you said, you don't necessarily think of commonalities between Iowa in Israel. But the interfaith component, the agriculture cultural component, I know you're also you talked about a little bit of security, I know, energy is a huge issue. Can you walk us through how these issues that are, you know, seemingly local, actually have larger, regional and international importance? How cooperation could maybe help your average person in Iowa City say, hey, look, this makes sense to me. I get what we're trying to do here.

Joni Ernst: 

Right. And we exist in a global economy. Of course, we, as the United States are blessed with an abundance of resources. But when we're able to partner with other nations around the globe, we find new ways of using the resources that we have at virtually at our fingertips. And what we have seen just in the exchanges and the ideas that are shared between entrepreneurs and Iowa, entrepreneurs and Israel, Israel being a huge startup nation. It has been a fascinating journey for me just explore from the realm of agriculture, the types of irrigation methods that are used in Israel. One of the visits that I had to Israel is visiting with a young entrepreneur that had developed left, a type of bandage, skin type bandage a liquid that could be applied on the battlefield.

But the source of that one of the sources for that bandage, that liquid bandage that would seal the skin together, actually comes from hogs that are sourced from Iowa. So I mean, it's it. We're all connected in so many interesting and fascinating ways. But when you talk to Iowans about this, they get it, they understand how connected we are, through our everyday activities. And I love it that we've been able to work strongly and partner with Israel, now expanding that opportunity as well, and to the other narrow Arab nations of that region. It's just an incredible time period of time that we're witnessing right now.

Benjamin Rogers: 

So that's great to hear it. Can you say a little bit more? What, when you found her the caucus? What were the hopes? As you know, we've been, as we're about to celebrate three years on what are some of the successes, AJC has been engaged with you a lot on bills like the defend act, MARITIME Act, the Regional Integration Act, what, how, what is the role of the caucus? What is the role of the US Senate in saying, Hey, we're here to support the Abraham accords?

Joni Ernst: 

Well, you outlined a number of those goals and objectives. But the first reason bringing us together, one was to celebrate the great accomplishment of the accords. That was the baseline. But then we built off of there because between the four of us in the United States Senate that founded the caucus to Republicans to Democrats, understanding that this is an extremely bipartisan move, and how do we not just celebrate the existence of the accords? But how do we become tools to further engage with those nations, maybe expand the chords? And, you know, what we'll say is normalization of relations. And maybe sometimes that's not the right word, but just this incredible collaboration between those countries? How can we be a part of that, and really sphere, the legislation that we're working on in Congress to benefit the United States, first and foremost, always, you know, looking for ways that we can, can protect ourselves further articles.

But also do that with our friends, Israel, and other Arab nations that have joined the courts or are considering joining into the courts. So we have been able to focus primarily from my perch on the Armed Services Committee then on things like the defend act, where we are working with Israel, the members of the Abraham Accords, and integrating air and missile defense systems, giving these nations a common operating picture, where they can literally save minutes seconds on an impending attack coming from, of course, main adversary in the Middle East Iran. So if we can all work together and save lives on the ground, so much the better for all of those nations. So we did have the main parts of that bill, the defend act, it was passed through the National Defense Authorization Act, last year.

This year, Senator Rosen and I also have the MARITIME Act, which is yet another step forward for our caucus, our objectives of securing that region. And it does basically the same thing that you'll see with the defender Act, which was primarily focused from the air protecting from the air. Now we are focusing on the maritime domain, and making sure that as we see naval traffic through that region, that they are protected as well. So we just continue to take steps to protect that region protect buses as United States citizens, but always looking for ways to further our goals through the Abraham accords.

Benjamin Rogers: 

That's remarkable. And in reading the legislation, being engaged with the region. You hear all these things about the Middle East, there's the Middle East is disconnected, the Middle East is not united. But then you look at some of the sources and you look at the potential and you look at the ability for all these countries that maybe would be traditional adversaries are now saying, hey, we need to worry about things like heroes. We need to worry about things like security, we need to worry about things like stability, we're going to come together, we want to work with a larger architecture. And it's been remarkable from our standpoint, to see the US as a major driving force for that.

Joni Ernst: 

Yes. And you mentioned security, stability, they go hand in hand, and what I have witnessed and in traveling through that region, and of course, getting to know leaders throughout that region, is that they are so interconnected, they really are. And the Abraham accords really provided a path forward for them to do more together. There has been a lot of work in this area for decades now. But we're finally seeing a real breakthrough, rapid advancement of cooperation between these nations. And because of a number of these nations coming together in the Accords, we say that, maybe there's a little bit of competition now as well with some of the other nations and in the region. And I say that and maybe top of mind, we should be thinking, What about Saudi Arabia, you know, so I, I do want to say, we hope that they will join in more, and I hope that they are on that glide path to get there. 

It is something that I have spoken with, with many of the leaders in Saudi Arabia. And we hope that we'll continue to see that really positive movement forward. But we want to see a strong foundation to build upon and which is what we're doing right now. But it can always improve. And that's what we want to see is continuous improvement, not just with the United States. And its existing allies and partners right now than many others that we hope to bring into the fold as well. 

Benjamin Rogers: 

So, since you brought up Saudi Arabia, and that's been top of mind on the news, can you share a little bit more with us. What does it mean, from your perspective, to have the Saudis as part of this process? What does it mean, from a US security standpoint? What does it mean from Chinese influence in the region? What are some of the pitfalls there? But where are the opportunities, that clearly, there seems to be a lot of hope for?

Joni Ernst: 

Well, let me start with the pitfalls. And I think it's pretty obvious that the largest pitfall is if we ignore Saudi Arabia, if we don't engage with Saudi Arabia, they will find another partner, and that partner is China. And so we don't want to see that happen. I think the natural alignment is for the United States and Saudi Arabia to come together. And I have always been of the thought that the Abraham accords would not have happened, if behind the scenes, Saudi Arabia had not given a signal that it was okay. So I do believe they had somewhat of a role in the Abraham accords. And I hope that they will continue working on a relationship with Israel, while maybe they won't come fully into the courts, but they will lend their leadership to the accords. And so I think that as we look forward, on the flip side, you know, that if we can avoid the pitfall of Saudi Arabia engaging completely 100% with China, we can avoid that we can move ahead in this region and have the participation of Saudi Arabia. I want them to look to the west for their partnerships.

I think that's incredibly important. So I do engage heavily with leadership from Saudi Arabia, I do engage with the ambassador to the United States Ambassador Rima. We have had many, many phone and in person conversations in the US in Saudi Arabia, just continually working on the areas that we can't work on. There are things that we disagree on. But one thing I find with Ambassador Rhema is that we can be very blunt and upfront with one another and have those discussions respectfully. I have the greatest respect for Princess Rhema. And the position that she is in in negotiating in the best interests of her country. I am always going to talk and negotiate in the best interests of the United States. And the best interests of the United States are that we continue to be The best ally for Israel, and find a way for us to work with Arab nations as well, again, going back to having strong security and strong stability in that region and all partnering together against a common adversary Iran.

Benjamin Rogers: 

This has been an absolutely fascinating discussion. We're three years out, and we're talking about Israeli Arab relations, as if this was commonplace as if this was how it's always been. If there is, you know, you do have to stop yourself. And I think an anniversary is always a good moment to say, Things did not always used to be this way. So with that reflection of the past, I know you spoke a little bit about the future. But where do you see the future of the Senate Abraham accords caucus going? If you were to look, you know, three years out, what position do you hope we are? The US, its engagement with Israel, its engagement with the Arab world and its engagement in trying to create a more interconnected Middle East?

Joni Ernst: 

Well, I'm incredibly pleased with where we are today on this third anniversary. And if we look another three years, what are my hopes Senator Joni Ernst, from the state of Iowa, you know, co founder of the Abraham accords caucus, where do we want to be? My vision in three years is that we will have all of this, those military type protections put into place that the defend act is fully implemented, the maritime act is now passed and implemented, and that we are integrating our military resources with one another. So this is a step forward, if we can bring Saudi Arabia into this fold, that we can start working with them on military platforms, as well, the Saudi Arabia of the sides, want to engage with these platforms, if we can get them to move away from China, and really work more with the United States, I can see greater sharing of this technology, with the Saudis.

And I do think that that's important. We have to have checks and balances, no doubt about it, we have to have those discussions. But if I can just say three years, this is what I want to happen. I want to have us all fully integrated, to make sure that the region is protected. And in turn, that makes us stronger in the United States, we know that we'll be protected as well for my brand. If we all are partnering together, I do want to say additional, you know, trade with that region as well. I think it's been incredibly important. 

As you look at UAE and Israel, the types of activities that they have been able to engage in whether it is just travel, education, and trade opportunities, there are so so many areas that are yet untouched, where we can go. And I hope that we see that in three years where we don't really differentiate ourselves as this group or that group, but that we're just common friends and partners. So I think that we've got a long ways to go. But I can act, I can, you know, actually say with this caucus, and the founders of the caucus, both in the Senate and the House, because the House members are really punching above their weight as well, is that we continue to bring members into the fold focus on this region and our opportunities there. And that we have a much more stable world because of the actions we have taken.

Benjamin Rogers: 

Well, Senator, thank you, thank you so much for your time. It goes without saying our AGC has a huge appreciation for the work that you're doing, for the work that your colleagues Senator Rosen, Senator Lankford and Senator Booker have been engaged on. We're grateful for your house colleagues and everything that they've been doing on pushing and securing the Abraham Accords as well. AJC's shares your vision of a more interconnected region of a stronger USA of a more united front against adversaries. And we are your partners in this and we look forward to working with you to realize the vision you just spelled out.

Joni Ernst: 

Well, I appreciate it so much and to you Benjamin and the entire team at AJC. Thank you so much for being such incredible advocates for the Abraham Accords, of course for Jewish communities all across the United States, and the work that we can all achieve together. It's pretty impressive. When we lean on each other and we move with a purpose. So thanks so much for all of the wonderful support.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with Academy Award winning film director Guy Nattiv about his latest film Golda, which opened in American theaters last week. The film examines the Yom Kippur War, a transformative moment in Israel's history.

This week, Academy Award-winning director Guy Nattiv discusses his new film 'Golda,' which follows the journey of Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir as she navigates the tense 19 days of the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Nattiv delves into how Helen Mirren, who portrays Golda Meir, expertly embodied the role. He also shares why, being a child of '73, he felt so compelled to tell this story. Tune in to hear the poignant anecdotes from the set and learn about the involvement of war veterans in the filmmaking process.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Guy Nattiv

Show Notes:

Watch:

• 'Golda' opens in US theaters starting August 25th from Bleecker Street / ShivHans pictures–find theater and ticket information at www.goldafilm.com

Read:

• Tough Questions on Israel Answered

Listen:

• Matti Friedman on How the 1973 Yom Kippur War Impacted Leonard Cohen and What It Means Today

• The Rise of Germany's Far-Right Party and What It Means for German Jews

• AJC Archives

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Guy Nattiv:

Golda Meir [from AJC Archives]:

We've suffered because of our stance, which is not just obstinacy, not just because we liked it this way. But I think it has been accepted more and more that we have something at stake, and that's our very existence. Whether the borders are such that we can defend them or not, is a question of to be or not to be.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

That's the late Prime Minister of Israel Golda Meir speaking with AJC about fighting wars to defend Israel's existence. The movie Golda premiering in American theaters this week tells the story of one such battle: the Yom Kippur War of 1973 when Egypt and Syria launched a surprise attack against the Jewish state. Here to talk about the movie and why it's an important story to share with the world, especially through Golda Meir's eyes is its Academy Award winning Director Guy Nattiv. Guy, welcome to People of the Pod. 

Guy Nattiv: 

Hi, Manya.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So Guy, as we just heard from Golda Meir herself, Israel has been defending its very existence since its creation, in war after war after war. Why did you want to direct a film about this particular war, which turned out to be quite a turbulent moment in the life of the Jewish state? 

Guy Nattiv: 

Well, I was born into this world, in a way. I'm a child of '73. My mom ran to the shelter with me as a baby, my father went to the war. And I grew up on those stories, of Golda, of the war, and I really wanted to know more, but there wasn't any way of knowing more. And I think that 10 years ago, protocols came out and gave a sense of what really happened, protocols from the Agranat Committee, from the war rooms, from the government. All those declassified documents. And that shed a different light on what really happened there, and on Golda. And doing the research on Golda  and talking to people who really knew her, gave me a sense of why we needed to tell the story. It's for my generation and for the generation of my fathers' and mothers'. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So who made the decision to cast Helen Mirren as Golda Meir? 

Guy Nattiv: 

I wasn't the one who casted Helen. When I came on board, Helen was already attached. I think that Gideon Meir, the grandson [of Golda], he was the one who thought about Helen first, he said, I see my grandmother in her. And when I came she already read the script, and it was only meeting me to close the circle. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

And what did she bring to the role?

Guy Nattiv: 

Humor, humanity, wisdom, charm. It's all there. But she brings a lot of human depth to the character.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Were there conversations off camera during the making of the film about Israel, about its history, about the lessons learned in this moment in its history, with Helen Mirren, or other cast members?

Guy Nattiv: 

Yeah, but the problem is that we don't really learn, right, because look what happened now in Israel. It's the Yom Kippur of democracy. So I don't think we learned enough. Where we are basically in the same situation, as '73, with a leader that is so disattached. At least Golda believed in the judicial system, she believed in High Courts, she was a humanist. She believed in democracy, full democracy. And I think the situation now is so dire. And when I went to protest in Israel, I went to protest with a lot of veterans from the war, who had the t-shirt 'This is the Yom Kippur of democracy.' We're fighting, they're almost fighting again, but this time not because of our enemies, because of ourselves. We're eating ourselves from within.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

I'm glad you mentioned the veterans of the war because this was such a painful conflict for Israel. Such a tragic blow to the nation's psyche. More than 2,600 Israeli soldiers were killed, 12,000 injured, nearly 300 taken prisoner. What do you believe this film offers those veterans?

Guy Nattiv: 

I think it brings a lot of humanity to Golda, who they saw as just the poster, as just a stamp, as just a statue, right? She was somebody who's not human. And I thought that Helen in the way that the film is structured is bringing Golda in a human way. And they see her struggle. And how she cared about those veterans. How she cared about every single person, every single soldier that died in this war. She wrote every name. She took it to her heart. And I thought that was something that veterans would respect. And also what I did is, when I edited the film, I brought five veterans from the front, a lot of them watched the movie in the first cut, the really first offline cut, and they helped me shape the narratives and bring their own perspective to this movie. So I thought that was very cool.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

You've made it clear that this is not a biopic about Golda Meir. This is really about this moment in history.

Guy Nattiv: 

No, it's not your classical biopic, if you want to do a biopic about Golda Meir, you'll have to have a miniseries with eight episodes or more. This is an hour and a half, on a very specific magnifying glass on the requiem of a country. The requiem of a leader. The last of Golda. The last days.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Let's listen to a clip from the film that really shows why Golda Meir was known as the Iron Lady of Israeli politics. Here's Helen Mirren as Golda Meir, sitting across the table from Henry Kissinger, played by actor Liev Schreiber.  

Clip from 'Golda':

Golda Meir (portrayed by Helen Mirren):

This country's traumatized. My generals are begging me to occupy Cairo. And Sharon is, is like a dog on a leash.

Henry Kissinger (portrayed by Liev Schreiber):

If you do that you will be on your own. Israel's long term interests will not be served by a fracturing of our relationship, Golda. Sadat has already agreed to the terms of the ceasefire.

Golda Meir (portrayed by Helen Mirren):

Of course he has. He's on the brink of defeat. It will give him a chance to regroup. You are the only person in the world who could possibly understand what I'm going through.

Henry Kissinger (portrayed by Liev Schreiber):

Yes, I know how you feel, but we need a ceasefire.

Golda Meir (portrayed by Helen Mirren):

I thought we were friends, Henry.

Henry Kissinger (portrayed by Liev Schreiber):

We will always protect Israel.

Golda Meir (portrayed by Helen Mirren):

Like you did in '48? We had to get our weapons from Stalin. Stalin. Our survival is not in your gift. If we have to, we will fight alone.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So Guy, what would you include in a mini series, if you produced a mini-series instead?

Guy Nattiv: 

I would go to her childhood in Ukraine, probably, I would show her family in Israel. I would show more of her relationship with Lou Kedar, they were really close, her assistant. There's a lot of things that I would do, but not in the format of a feature. Although if you want to do something like you know, a four and a half hour feature, like, used to be in the 80s or the 70s. They were massive, like Gone With the Wind. This is something else. But this is not this movie. This movie is really a specific time in history.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Through her eyes, basically.

Guy Nattiv: 

Through her eyes.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Yeah.

Guy Nattiv: 

Under her skin.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

I'm curious, if in the making of the film, there were any kind of surprising revelations about cast members or their perspectives, their opinions, or revelations about the history itself.

Guy Nattiv: 

One of the guys that was a stand-in, he was an extra in the movie. He was at the table of all the ministers. Ephri, Ephraim, his name is. I played the siren in the room. So everybody will get the siren, and the long siren. And he started crying. And he said, I'm sorry, I cannot really stay here for long. And I asked him, why not? He said, because I'm a veteran of the war. I was 21 when I went to the tunnel, and I fought. And he lives in the UK. And we shot the film in the UK and he came and it was amazing. And he came to Helen and me and he showed us photos of him as a 21 year old from the war. It was very emotional, it was surprising, he's only this extra. Who is a war veteran, who's playing a Minister.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Wow. Did he explain why he tried out, or auditioned to be an extra, why he wanted to do this?

Guy Nattiv: 

He's doing a lot of extra work in the UK. You know, he moved to the UK and is an extra in a lot of movies. And when he saw that this movie exists, he said, I must come, I must be one of those ministers. And we needed a desk full of ministers, you know, and he was the right age. So he's just an extra. That's what he does. I don't know if he thought that he would be in the same situation. I don't think that he thought that. Because he didn't read the script. It was a very emotional moment. And a very emotional moment for Helen.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So this was filmed in the UK?

Guy Nattiv:

It was filmed in an Indian School, outside of London. The Indian abandoned school that was basically huge, like, massive. Arad Sawat, who is my production designer, he basically created the entire kiriya [campus/city], and war room and all the bunker and Golda's kitchen, he built it from scratch, exactly like it was in Israel. And it was crazy. It's just like walking into the 70s. Me, as a grown up, you know, and seeing Helen as Golda. And the commanders. It was surreal. Just surreal.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

And how did you gather those kinds of personal details about her life? In other words, like, did you have pictures, plenty of photo photographs to base that on?

Guy Nattiv: 

My two sources were Adam, her bodyguard, that gave me all the information, and her press secretary, who's 91, who told me everything about her, and books that were available for us, and protocols. It was very specific protocols that showed us how everything went down.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Did Helen spend a lot of time with those people as well to really get a sense, and I'm curious how else she prepared, if you know, how else she prepared for this role, to really embody the former prime minister?

Guy Nattiv:

It was her own private process. I didn't get into it so much. But I think that she read all the books. She worked with a dialect coach to understand how the Milwaukee accent, to talk in the Milwaukee accent. Walk the walk. I think she prepared also with an animal coach. There's a coach, every actor becomes, every role it's a different animal. And you behave like this animal. You take the physiques of this animal. I think she was a turtle. I think that Golda was more of a turtle. The way she spoke. Everything was so slow. So I think that she became, she did, the way she carried herself like a ship  into this. So it was a lot of metaphors, a lot of stuff, a lot of tools that help actors get into the role. But when I met her, and that was after like three and a half months we didn't talk, she was Golda. It's almost like she got into the trailer as Helen and she came out as Golda. We didn't see Helen, we saw Golda. Even when we spoke and we ate lunch with her, we saw Golda. And so at the end of the 37 days of shooting, I was like, you know, I don't remember how you look like, Helen. And only in Berlin Film Festival, when she gave us Helen Mirren, is where we really saw her.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So you mentioned Berlin, the film has premiered there in Berlin, also has premiered in Israel. I'm curious how audiences have received it in both places. Has it hit different chords in different countries? 

Guy Nattiv: 

When non Jews see the movie, I mean, they have lack of emotional baggage. And they see it as something foreign in a way. But for Jews, for Israelis, there's a lot of emotional aspects to it. So it's, yeah, it's different. It's a different view. But a lot of people that are not Jews are still really like, this is such an interesting, we didn't even know about her. You know, a lot of people are learning who she was. And they didn't know. It's like she paved the way to Margaret Thatcher. And to Angela Merkel. So they see now what's the origin of that.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

That's a really wonderful point, it being filmed in the UK and premiering in Berlin.

Guy Nattiv: 

[Angela] Merkel said that Golda was her inspiration.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So how do you expect it to resonate here in the United States?

Guy Nattiv: 

I really feel that it's just starting out right now, we had an Academy screening, and I'm getting amazing text messages from people from that generation. But I also would love for younger generation to know about that and explore Golda. Yeah, I mean, I'm interested to know, to see how it is. But I know that it's very emotional for the Jewish community. I can feel that.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Do you think this film will change how people view Golda Meir and Israel's leaders in general?

Guy Nattiv: 

I hope it will spark a nerve in a way that we are in the same situation now. And people will see that history repeats itself, in a way. It's not the same exact situation. But it's the blindness that our leaders are in right now. And I hope it will bring a different narrative to the character of Golda, and who she was, not just the poster, not just the scapegoat. Because she was the scapegoat of this war. It was easy to blame her for all the faults of her commanders and all the other human intelligence commanders and what happened there. But it's just, she's not the only one. She's not the scapegoat. She was actually very valuable for Israel, because she brought the shipments from the state, of the planes and the weapons. She was in charge of it. And I think without that, we would probably find ourselves in a different situation.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Golda was the first female head of government in the Middle East. Do you think her gender had something to do with her being blamed or the being labeled the scapegoat, as you said? 

Guy Nattiv: 

Absolutely. Absolutely. I truly believe that with more female leaders in this world, the world will be a better place. I feel that men proved us wrong. You know, I want to see Tzipi Livni leading Israel again. I want to see more women in key roles and leading countries. I think the world would be a better place. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Guy, thank you so much. Really appreciate you sitting down with us.

Guy Nattiv: 

Thank you. 

Polls in Germany suggest the far-right political party Alternative for Germany, or AfD—with its antisemitic, anti-Muslim, anti-EU, and other extreme views—has support from a fifth of German voters. Hear from Felix Klein, the Federal Government Commissioner for Jewish Life in Germany and the Fight Against Antisemitism, and an AJC Project Interchange Alum, on what has contributed to the rise of AfD, why the party threatens German Jews, and the danger it presents to Germany's democracy. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Felix Klein

Show Notes:

Read:

• A Roadmap for America: AJC's Experience in Europe Is Helping the U.S. Fight Antisemitism

• German Antisemitism Czar Says Calling Israel 'Apartheid' Is Antisemitic

Listen:

• What the U.S. National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism Means for Jewish College Students

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Felix Klein:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Polls in Germany suggest the far right political party Alternative for Germany has support from a fifth of German voters. In some states, such as Thuringia, the AfD has the support of more than a third. This past weekend, the party met to select its candidates for the European parliament, where it has joined a far right bloc that will boost EU funding for the party. 

Here to discuss how that affects Germany's Jewish community is Felix Klein, Germany's first Federal Government Commissioner for Jewish Life in Germany and the Fight against Antisemitism. Felix, welcome back to People of the Pod.

Felix Klein:  

Hello, it's a great pleasure to be here again with you.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So tell us a little bit about Alternative for Germany or AfD, as it's often referred to, and explain for our audience why it was founded 10 years ago?

Felix Klein:  

Well, AfD was founded in light of the big financial crisis. It was at the time, about 10 years ago, it was questionable at all whether the euro, as one of the most prestigious and most important European projects, could continue as a currency, as a common European currency, because countries like Greece were heavily indebted. And there was a big discussion whether to, to kick Greece out of the Euro system, or, and it was differently decided. O  r to keep it in the EU, of course, and in the Euro system. 

And the then-Chancellor Angela Merkel said there is no alternative to that. No alternative for the solution suggested by the government. And there were many people in Germany that were not happy with that, saying, Oh, yes, there is an Alternative for Germany. And that was also the title of this new party, the Alternative for Germany. So it started really, with people who were not happy with the policy towards the European Union and the European solidarity. It didn't start so radical as it is now.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So how did it become as radical as it is now? And why are we seeing a bit of a resurgence?

Felix Klein:  

Well, in times of crisis and uncertainty people are unfortunately, I think that happens when many democracies are more open to populist ideas and parties. And that happens, many countries, including Germany, and AfD, was successful in getting support of those who were not happy with the decisions of the government in Corona, pandemic, from 2020. And now, last year, with the War of Russia, attacking Ukraine, again, we had a strike of uncertainty, energy prices went up in Germany, people are uncertain of what to do, many are not satisfied with the way the government deals with all these issues. And this is another explanation why AFD was able and successful to catch support, particularly in Eastern Germany.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

But it sounds like it also has values that go beyond fiscal responsibility or the economy. 

Felix Klein:  

Yes, it's beyond the economy. So as I told you, AFD started off with economic issues, but unfortunately, it was attracted by people who have very, very problematic views. And to people who would deny or distort the Holocaust. People will say it was for a long time anyway, Germany was dominated by foreign powers by the EU, and you hear what they're saying this is antisemitic thoughts and narratives. And those people became more influential by the party over time. And what we've seen now, where this party really now chose candidates for the European elections who actually are in against the European Union. Many of them want Germany to leave the EU. There you see how radical it has come, they're also anti-Muslim. This is maybe the most important narrative, anti-migration, anti-Muslim, anti-EU. And of course, with all of that comes also antisemitic narratives. So this is why I'm very, very concerned about the success of this party. And I've expressed it openly in an interview that was published in Welt am Sonntag last Sunday.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You just mentioned that this party appeals to those who deny or distort the Holocaust. How so?

Felix Klein:  

Holocaust distortion is a very common idea in this party. Up to 20% of the Germans think that we should not talk so much anymore about the atrocities committed by the Nazis, that we have to look forward, etc. So, it is not a big surprise that, of course, anything that downgrades, if I may say so, the horrors committed by Germans in the Holocaust, and in the Second World War, in general, is very common. 

Very prominent figures of the AfD call really for a cut, which is illogical anyway, you cannot cut yourself off of your own history as a country. But many of these voices call for a different remembrance culture, that it is a shame for Germany that it constructed the Holocaust Memorial in the heart of Berlin. Germany should not be so shameful with itself. And unfortunately, many people agree to this kind of ideas. So holocaust distortion is a big thing. Holocaust denial, it's not so much of a problem. But of course, anything that kind of makes the Holocaust less, less cruel or less incredible, as it was, is welcomed by this party.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I want to go back to the topic of the European Union, because one of the reasons why Alternative for Germany joined this far-right bloc was to boost EU funding for the party, but yet it's calling for the dissolution of the EU, or at least for Germany to withdraw. Can you explain that calculus?

Felix Klein:  

Well, it's, of course very contradictory. On one hand, you call for European funds. And anyway Germany is, I think, the one of the countries that really is taking advantage of the most of the European Union, our industry is heavily export-oriented. One out of four workers in Germany depend on international trade, and of course, it would be very much against German interest to leave the EU. On the other hand, it is a very common narrative in Germany to blame the EU for many developments and decisions taken by the government and they do not have a problem calling these two things at the same time.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So besides Holocaust distortion, is there other antisemitic rhetoric coming from this party that you see, or fear threatens Jewish life in Germany? 

Felix Klein:  

Yeah, one of them, clearly I see conspiracy theories being very popular within the AfD voters and a very concrete danger for Jewish life is a motion the AfD has tried to introduce into our parliament that would have banned kosher slaughtering. And fortunately, it didn't go through of course, but if you ban kosher meat, with the argument for animal protection, then of course, you violate the basic right of religion. Because the way you would like to eat is a part of the freedom of religion and fortunately, the motion didn't go through but you'll see that the AfD is really in that very concretely threatening Jewish life in Germany. 

Another thing is, of course, they are on first hand very anti Muslim, anti migration. But it is a common fact that anti Muslim hatred is very much linked to antisemitism actually and the way they also talk about Israel as being a big and important factor against the Muslims shows the whole narrative of, to say that Israel is there also to keep Muslims out, is very dangerous. Because I think we all agree that Israel is not against the Muslims, or it's not an anti-Arabic country, as such, but this is what the AfD would like people to believe.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In other words, championing Israel, for motives that don't belong to Israel, in other words, assigning motives to Israel that don't even exist.

Felix Klein:  

It triggers a discussion about Israel, which is absolutely bad, not only for Israel, but also for the Jews living here, because they then have to have an opinion about Israel. And it is complicated enough anyway for the Jews who live in Germany, to explain to non Jews that they are not ambassadors or representatives of the Jewish state here, that they are normal German citizens, and of course, they might have an opinion about Israel. But they are by no means representatives of Israel. I think you have the same discussions in the US, where many people think that American Jews represent the Jewish state.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So you have also warned that there are not just antisemitic forces, but anti-democratic forces at work in this party. What do you mean by that? I mean, is that in reference to how they denigrate the EU? Or are other other things in play?

Felix Klein:  

I refer to the conspiracy theories I already mentioned, which are as such anti democratic, because anybody who believes in a conspiracy theory thing has a problem with democracy. And I would say 99% of the conspiracy theories have an antisemitic content in the end. Because the theory is that a small group of privileged people, in brackets, the Jews, take advantage and profit from a uncertain and difficult situation at the expense of, of everybody, a small group gets an advantage. And this is what leading figures in the AfD also emanate. And of course, this is not only antisemitic, but also anti-democratic.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

They really are one in the same. If you're anti democratic, then you're probably anti semitic and vice versa.

Felix Klein:  

Once again, I cannot reiterate enough, that shows that antisemitism is anti-democratic as such, and if you turn it around, every success we have in the fight against antisemitism is a fight for our democracy. It is really directly linked. I think it's like a litmus test we have in our society.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what other questions should people ask to measure a candidate or a party's democratic ideals? Certainly listening out for conspiracy theories or antisemitic rhetoric? Are there other litmus tests?

Felix Klein:  

Yeah, of course, well first off, particularly in Germany, every politician should make it clear that he or she distances himself or herself from the horrors of the Nazi past. I mean, our democracy is the answer to the horrors of the Third Reich. And if you don't make that clear, or if you leave it uncertain, then you have a problem. And this is what voters should actively ask candidates: do you really think that the Holocaust is singular in history? Or is it an atrocity, like any other atrocity that was also committed by other people in history? This has to be made very, very clear. And I hope that in the coming elections, people will ask these questions.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I love what you said about how every victory against antisemitism is a victory for democracy. They really do go hand in hand. 

And I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about the EU's Digital Services Act, which takes effect this month in fact. Now for our audience members who aren't familiar with this, this is a new law that will require internet platforms like Facebook and X, formerly Twitter, to not only delete unlawful content, but also provide information about those publishing that information, to the police. Some people would say this is not democratic. Others would say, Oh, yes, it is. So can you speak to that, to that criticism and whether you think this law will make a difference in the fight for democracy and against antisemitism.

Felix Klein:  

The main number of antisemitic crimes committed in Germany happens in the internet. Holocaust distortion, particularly, but also incitement of the people. More than two thirds of all antisemitic crimes are committed there. And if you look at the antisemitic incidents below the threshold of crime rate, it's even more. So we have to get and develop new instruments in combating antisemitism online. And the idea is very simple. Whatever is punishable offline should be also punished online. So any sentence you could be punished for, like an incitement of the people in the real world should also be punishable when you do it on the internet. It's very, very simple. And that is, this is a very simple idea of the EU Digital Services Act. 

And in the past, of course, it was very difficult for police and prosecutors to trace the perpetrators and the main people now we want to involve, or big organizations, is the internet platforms because they have access to the IP addresses of those who spread antisemitism and hate speech. And we have to make them responsible. 

So I think this is a very, very good instrument in fighting antisemitism online, I would even say it is a game changer. We have had pilot projects in Germany, where prosecutors who actually then found out with their means the perpetrators who spread antisemitism and will then get counter pressure from the state. So for instance, when the police car is in front of their homes, and the neighbors are watching, these people do not spread antisemitism anymore, they are impressed that the states can defend itself or defend its citizens and go against hate speech. 

I think this will be very effective. And we I'm very happy that the federal police office here in Germany has now founded offices to and departments to be ready for the new law. And as you said, yeah, it is getting affected soon. And this is, I think, a very good example, that democracy is not self-evident. It has to defend itself. And freedom of speech has its limits, at least in our European concept. You cannot say anything you would like if you violate the rights of others. And this is a clear case.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

The White House just recently released the US national strategy to counter antisemitism. And you and other envoys traveled here to the United States to advise the officials who were developing that strategy. In fact, the last time you were on this podcast, it was to talk about that trip. Did you talk about the limits on free speech during that trip with officials, the need to hold social media platforms accountable? Because what the EU is doing is not happening here. Not yet, at least.

Felix Klein:  

We talked about this, of course, but I'm aware of the legal situation in the US where you have a different concept of the freedom of speech, that the First Amendment of the US Constitution is, there problematic in that case to limit that. I hope that US administration finds ways nevertheless to go against, or  to be effective against hate speech and antisemitism online and I think the right way is to talk to the internet platforms, to provide us– many of them have their headquarters in the US and earn much money in the US. So, there should be ways in getting them to limit or to do their responsible share of maintaining the US democracy too.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Felix, thank you so much for joining us. 

Felix Klein:  

It was a pleasure. All the best, and it's always great to be together with AJC.

In May, the White House released its U.S. National Strategy for Countering Antisemitism. As students return to campus, hear from two student leaders who are working to share and implement the strategy's recommendations at their colleges and beyond: Sabrina Soffer, a rising junior at George Washington University and the head of the school's Presidential Task Force to Combat Antisemitism, and Abe Baker-Butler, a rising junior at Yale University and the president of the AJC Campus Global Board. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Abe Baker-Butler and Sabrina Soffer

Show Notes:

Learn:

• AJC Campus Library: Resources for Becoming a Strong Jewish Student Advocate

Listen:

• IsraAID CEO on Sharing Israel's Expertise With the World's Most Vulnerable

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Abe Baker-Butler and Sabrina Soffer:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

At the end of May, weeks after most college students headed home, abroad, or to summer internships, the White House released its US National Strategy for Countering Antisemitism. But given the timing, it's unclear how many students know it exists. With me are two student leaders who not only know, they've shared it with other students with the intention of helping to implement its recommendations for college campuses, when in a few weeks they go back to school. 

Sabrina Soffer, a rising junior at George Washington University is the Commissioner of the Presidential Task Force to Combat Antisemitism at GW, and Abe Baker-Butler, a rising junior at Yale University is the president of the AJC Campus Global Board. Abe, Sabrina, welcome to People of the Pod.

Abe Baker-Butler: 

Thank you for having us, Manya.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I will ask you both, when did you hear about the US national strategy? 

Abe Baker-Butler:  

So I heard about the national strategy when it was in the headlines initially. But with school ending and finals, I didn't have the time to actually sit down and read it in full until we got to AJC Global Forum. And what really stuck with me was how there are real action items in there for students, and not only Jewish students, but all students to take action to combat antisemitism. And I was very excited that as the campus global board, we had the opportunity to spend some real quality time brainstorming how we could play a meaningful role in implementing this National Strategy to Combat Antisemitism.

Sabrina Soffer:  

So yeah, that's really interesting, I took very similar tidbits away from the strategy. But the first time that I heard about it was actually the same day that I was giving a talk to a group of women in San Diego, which is my hometown, in California. And it gave a lot of hope to the women who were listening to what I was saying, especially because the talk was about my experience on campus, which I think I'll get into a little bit later. But similar to Abe, the time I read it on the plane, actually on the way to Israel. So I had quite a bit of time to do that. And the thing that really stuck with me was exactly what Abe said, how all students, not just Jewish students, can take action and also the interfaith component. I think that having other students stand up for the Jewish community is essential and spreading awareness that way can really help in the fight to combat antisemitism.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So yes, Sabrina, I do want to talk to you a little bit more about the Taskforce. But first, Abe, can you tell us about the AJC Campus Global Board? It was formed last year, but who makes up its membership? And why? Why are they on this board?

Abe Baker-Butler:  

We're a group of 30 students, I believe, there are 20 of us from the United States, 10 of us from the rest of the world. And when I say the rest of the world, truly the whole rest of the world, Australia, to South Africa, to Europe, you name it. And our mission that we're working to pursue, is to support AJC's work on campus, and also to really ensure that AJC's work is informed from a student leader and young person's perspective. I think it's a real testament to AJC that they are taking this tangible step to prioritize us as young people and to say, you know, we want to hear you, and we want your perspectives to inform our advocacy.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what schools do students hail from? Are they all East Coast schools? Or is there geographic diversity?

Abe Baker-Butler:  

Certainly not all East Coast schools, we have people from all over ranging from the University of Florida University of Southern California, University of Tennessee, Northwestern, and that's just in the United States. Our goal is really to ensure that we are incorporating a broad array of perspectives from across our country, from across also all parts of the Jewish community. We care deeply on the Campus Global Board about ensuring that we're embracing a pluralistic Judaism, that we have people from all denominations, all backgrounds, and we believe that by doing that we can best inform AJC's work.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And what have you done so far? 

Abe Baker-Butler:  

So in the past year, we've really been building our structure and integrating ourselves into the AJC institution. A few highlights that I can think of from the past year that have been particularly meaningful to me, are well I guess this is one of the biggest ones in my mind during the development and prior to the announcement of the National Strategy to Combat Antisemitism, Holly Huffnagle, AJC's US director for combating antisemitism, her and other AJC content experts and staff took the time to meet with a contingent of our Campus Global Board members to hear their thoughts in a listening session of sorts. And then what Holly and those staff members did is they took those thoughts and used them as they were giving feedback to the White House, as it developed the National Strategy. To me that's extremely meaningful. 

Some other events we did is we had an event with Ted at University of Pennsylvania, which received really diverse audience in terms of Jewish denominations and observance, which I was very happy about. 

We also held an event with Richie Torres, at Harvard, which was also much needed, given the situation on campus there. And beyond those sorts of headline events, we've also been doing more-- we've started a mentorship program between our campus full board and ACCESS. And there's a lot more in the pipeline, too, that I can also talk about.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Can you talk a little bit more about what was going on at Harvard? Is the campus global board, is the primary responsibility to respond to situations?

Abe Baker-Butler:  

Yes, so the reason I made that remark is because I think there's often a perception that you can't be both progressive and Zionist, and I think Ritchie Torres, who was our speaker there, really cuts that misconception straight through. But in terms of us responding to what's going on on campus, another really interesting part of our work that I'm proud of is our antisemitic incident response. Whenever there is an antisemitic incident on a campus, we the leadership of the campus global board, try and reach out to the Jewish leaders on that campus, whether it be the presidents of Hillel, or the head of the Chabad board. And we come saying, Hey, we're not here looking to get any kind of headlines, or press coverage, or to meet with your university administrators. You tell us what you need. And we're here as a group of 30 committed individuals to provide it to you. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Sabrina, tell us about GW's task force to combat anti semitism and who makes up that group?

Sabrina Soffer:  

Yeah, so GW's task force came about after the Lara Sheehi incident that happened in December. So basically, there was a professor who was teaching a mandatory diversity class at the grad school level. Everybody had to introduce where they were coming from. And there was a group of students from Tel Aviv. And the professor responded, it's not your fault you were born in Israel. And to make a long story short, that class became increasingly about imperialism and settler colonialism and more anti-Israel over time, and the students became more and more uncomfortable, and even after they reported it to the dean, there was no accountability. And then there was a title six complaint. And after that, there was an investigation conducted by the University, I guess, the university hired a law firm. And they found that there was not only no antisemitism, but no discrimination, because it fell within the lines of free speech, what was going on in the classroom, which I don't necessarily agree with, I think that it created a really hostile environment. Because the students did report that they couldn't sleep well, they couldn't eat because they had to turn in assignments to that professor who they couldn't trust because obviously, she disrespected them because of their identity. 

So something I'm trying to do with the taskforce is trying to create trust between all members of the GW community, whether they agree or disagree, and no matter their identity groups, but I'll put that aside for now. So after that incident happened, there was a student in the student government, I think he's the former legislator General. And he was friends with the president of Chabad. And I'm the vice president. So they were speaking about it. And I guess the president, who's a good friend of mine, said, Oh, I have a friend who's very much involved in the Jewish world. And she would definitely like to take on an initiative like this one, and create a taskforce to deal with these issues on campus, because we've had quite a few of them that are either similar or radically different than the Lara Sheehi incident. So you know, I took the task upon myself I, they gave me some parameters of what to do, like it had to be 10 students, which I've now expanded to 15, because I couldn't reject people who seriously sounded amazing in their interviews, and then it had to be tied to the student government in some sort. So from there, I had to pass it through three different committees on the task force, and I really wanted it to be an all encompassing group. For example, I didn't want it all Jews, like the White House National Strategy says.

And I think at the back of my mind, my mom raised me with this principle of like, you can't solve a problem without making people who are a part of the problem, a part of the solution. So I said, You know what, let's go for it, Yallah, and it'll be better this way. And we'll figure out these issues together. So then it came about, it was voted on unanimously. And then we've kind of started doing some work during the summer, we started collecting data. I've gotten the whole team organized, and I'm really, really pleased.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You know, I'm sure there are Jewish students who are listening, who are heading to campus as freshmen this year, perhaps their parents or their grandparents are listening. And Sabrina, I'm curious, what should they expect? And how can they prepare to be a Jewish student on an American college campus?

Sabrina Soffer:  

So I think that every campus is different. And I want to preface this by saying that no, the campuses themselves, besides a few, like, you can't label the campus as an antisemitic University, I think that's really important to note. For me, from what I've seen in conversations with administrators, with faculty and other students, is that there's a problem of systemic ignorance that breeds antisemitism, not so much a problem of systemic antisemitism. Because really, people don't have that, the majority of people don't have that much hate in their heart, you know, to like, go out and say tropes and demonize, you know, another, another person's identity for no reason. 

I think it really comes from people trying to advocate for something else, but they don't know how it makes other people feel, or they just don't care. And I think we have to do a better job of explaining how we feel. So that was just a little bit of a preface, but the backstory is that I came into college not having any idea what this would be like. I tried to look for a campus with a great Jewish community, which GW absolutely has. Not all campuses have it. But I'm lucky, I actually don't believe that we do have a Chabad, Hillel, Meor, GW for Israel. So groups that I really identify with, and I thought that I would have no problem. However, in some of the classes that I was taking, I would openly share my ties to Israel, where my family was from, where I got my principles and my ethics. And over time, I came to realize that my ideas were being tarnished, they were being called racist and xenophobic.

This was just a quick story. We were trying to talk about Holocaust education and slavery education, and one girl told me, Oh, the Holocaust is a lot more sensitized than slavery in school, because Jews are white. And that's like, I took that very, you know, did not sit well with me. But it was a problem of ignorance. I had a conversation with the girl afterward. And you know, we reconcile the differences, but like, I think that happens a lot on campus where there's so much ignorance, that it just comes out in ways that they shouldn't. 

So, from then on, I really took it upon myself to become an educator, no matter what people would think of me. I would always try to spread my truth and do it in a loving way. 

So I would just encourage all Jewish students before they get to campus to find their community because this whole time that I was experiencing this difficulty, I was really leaning on my Chabad friends, my Hillel friends, and of course, my family back home. Always talk to your parents. I think that's a really important point. And find the people who are going to support you no matter what. So that's just my my big piece of advice as well as get yourself educated. Know your history. Know your facts, know your identity, and never stop being who you are. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Abe, what about you? What advice do you have for incoming freshmen?

Abe Baker-Butler:  

Yeah, well, I think Sabrina really hit the nail on the head here by talking about ignorance. The stories I've heard from my friends and what I've experienced on campus, I've seen that a lot of the antisemitism we see is really driven by ignorance. I've heard multiple times on my campus. ideas such as the Jews are white and privileged. Why do the Jews have so many resources in the form of their lovely Hillel building? Look how rich the Jews are-they have security guards. These kinds of ideas, these kinds of comments. I think they're not coming from. Yeah, I don't think there's such a thing as informed hatred, right. I think that's an oxymoron. But they're coming out of ignorance. And I think because these sorts of antisemitic sentiments are coming out of ignorance. It makes the work that people like Sabrina and I, like Sabrina's taskforce and our campus global board, I think it makes the work that we're doing, ever more important, extremely important. 

Abe Baker-Butler:  

In terms of my advice for Jewish students coming to campus, I would say, you should keep in mind that while you can have an extremely meaningful impact by teaching those who may be ignorant about antisemitism, you also should remember that it is not only your responsibility to fight antisemitism, it is the entire community's responsibility to fight antisemitism. That includes it, should and must include allies. And then the other advice I would give is exactly what Sabrina said, you should know that as a Jewish student, there is a community behind you both on your campus, whether it's Hillel or Chabad, or anything else. And also, nationally, there are students like Sabrina and I, who are here to support you. There are organizations like Jewish on Campus, for example, of students that have ambassador's programs on campus. So you should never feel alone as a Jewish student on campus. Because there's so many people out there who care about you and support you. And you have the facts behind you.

Sabrina Soffer:  

I also just something that's really important for students to know is like know your rights on campus, both in the campus realm and the legal realm. Because what happened with the Lara Sheehi incident, those students, they knew how to report the incident. But there was no accountability. So it's like, where do I go from there? I've had students, I've had friends who've given up after they've had incidents, and they didn't know to go to groups, like AJC or Hillel International, maybe to help them out. So I think that knowing your rights before you get to campus is imperative.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You know, I was going to add, thank you so much, Sabrina, for that. I was also going to add to what Abe said, you know, I went to a very small school. For undergraduate. I was one of two Jews on campus that I know of. There might have been more. So there was no Hillel. It was a very small, tiny Jewish community. But like you said, there are organizations like AJC, there are national organizations. Now there's a national action plan that applies to every school. Not just these larger schools that have Hillels or Chabads on campus.

So we talked about engaging different points of view, and different perspectives. These are all young people, your age, still learning. I also think it's very important to build and find allies on campus. I think that right there is a potential for education. And Abe, I am curious what kind of thought the campus global board has given to engaging different points of view and finding allies?

Abe Baker-Butler:

So we care deeply about finding allies. One thing I do want to highlight is the AJC curriculum that we've been developing with Dr. Sara Coodin that we look to use on campuses. And in terms of finding allies. That is key if it's central to our work on the campus global board. Some ideas that we have that we're working on include collaboration, brotherhood and sisterhood events, with Black and Jewish fraternities and sororities, reading groups between black and Jewish groups on campus to understand each other's shared perspectives. Joint interfaith seders and events between Muslim and Jewish groups on campuses. We really have a responsibility to create shared communities of goodwill, who can be our allies on campus, because in addition to having the national strategy and having national organizations like AJC on campuses, like the one you attended Manya, having allies like that is perhaps the most important because they can be that community that supports you. 

And the other thing that I wanted to add to what we were discussing before, in terms of advice for Jewish students that I neglected to say was, you should always be proud of your Jewish identity. Always, always, always. You're the heir to an extremely rich intellectual and cultural tradition. And anyone who tries to make you feel ashamed of that or to slander that is wrong, and you should not heed what they say.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I am curious if you could share how you have celebrated, enjoyed being Jewish on campus?

Sabrina Soffer:  

This past April it was Yom Ha'atzmaut and we had Israel fest. It's a GW for Israel organized, we put Israeli flags in Cogan Plaza, the main plaza, we had loud music, falafel, shawarma, everything, and we were just dancing. And it was just the most amazing experiences not only feel like, for me, a lot of my Jewish identity comes from, like Zionism and my Israeli background. So just being able to celebrate Yom Ha'atzmaut with a bunch of my Jewish friends who also support Israel. And it was just amazing. And also like a lot of the music that I grew up with, and that I'm familiar with, that was very fun to like, have in public on campus, and also having non Jews join us in that celebration. And this was all while SJP and JVP, were sitting right in front of us for literally two hours with posters with very hostile messages about Israel. And we didn't pay any attention, we kept dancing, and they just it's like, you know, we will do our thing, we'll be proud, we block out the noise, block out the hate. So that felt pretty great. 

And then another experience I had was on Pesach, my parents come and visit me a lot. I brought them to Chabad for Pesach, and it was just like they fit in so nicely with all my friends, all the students and the whole GW community. Chabad was really the organization that ushered me in at the beginning, they really made me feel like home away from home, and having my parents who like literally made my home amazing, very Jewish. Like they brought me up in a Jewish home, having them in my new kind of home in college just was very rewarding. So those are two experiences.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Both sound beautiful, both sound really, really lovely. And I just want to clarify for listeners, JVP stands for Jewish Voice for Peace, and SJP is Students for Justice in Palestine, which are two groups on college campuses that have engaged in a lot of anti-Israel rhetoric.

Abe, I want to turn back to you for one last question. And that is, I asked you what the Campus Global Board has done and it's one year of existence, but what will it do in the year ahead? What do you envision accomplishing?

Abe Baker-Butler:  

Probably the most central part of our plans for this year, I want to highlight is implementing the White House national strategy on combating anti semitism on campus. One idea that we're working on, not finalized yet, but that I'm hoping will become a reality is an incubator of sorts, where we'll put out a call for proposals from not only Jewish but non Jewish groups about how to fight antisemitism on campus, in line with the plan. And then our goal is that the campus goal board will sift through the proposals that we receive and figure out how we can best support, financially and otherwise, these organizations on campus in conducting activities that will help implement the plan and stem antisemitism.

Some other ideas we have are, we want to bring diplomats from Abraham Accords countries to campuses to help stem the ignorance that I was talking about. And then also, we want to ensure to, the point I was making earlier about integrating young people, and really walking to talk with young people as part of AJC's advocacy. We want to ensure that young people, members of the campus cohort and others aren't as many AJC advocacy meetings and settings as possible, because we believe, and AJC believes as well, that when our voices are there, it provides for an even more persuasive advocacy, and an even more full representation of the interests of the Jewish community.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Can you give examples of where that advocacy takes place? Where would these young people go?

Abe Baker-Butler:  

Certainly. So we're planning to do it at all levels. One example would be Diplomatic Marathon alongside the UN General Assembly, meetings with diplomats there but also at the local level with legislators and others, at the regional office level. There are a lot of opportunities for young people to get involved in AJC's work. And we want to ensure that young voices are represented in all of these meetings, whether it be domestic legislators or diplomats or anyone else. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Sabrina, Abe, thank you so much for joining us and discussing what your plans are for this year. I wish you both a lot of luck and I hope you most of all enjoy your junior years in college. 

Sabrina Soffer:  

Thank you so much for having us. 

Abe Baker-Butler:  

Thank you, Manya. Shabbat shalom. 

Sabrina Soffer:  

Shabbat shalom. 

Tune in for a conversation with Yotam Politzer, CEO of IsraAID, a leading Israeli humanitarian aid organization and longtime partner of AJC, about the group's mission and the impact of sharing Israel's expertise and technology to help millions worldwide after crises hit. Yotam also shares his personal journey and how he found his passion for humanitarian work.

Additionally, hear what our podcast community at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv had to say when we asked: why do you love Israel? 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Podcast Listeners

• (2:47) Yotam Politzer

Show Notes:

Learn:

• Crossing the Red Sea: Israel and Africa in 2023 

Listen:

• Israel's Reasonableness Law: What it Means for Israel's Democracy and Security

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Episode Transcript:

1. Transcript of Podcast Listener Segment:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

This week, we bring you voices from Tel Aviv. I spoke with Yotam Politzer, the CEO of IsraAID, about the importance of sharing Israel's expertise and technology with the world's most vulnerable. 

But first, hear from some podcast listeners who stopped by our podcast booth at AJC Global Forum 2023 to tell us why they love Israel. Listeners, the mic is yours. 

Corey Sarcu:

My name's Corey Sarcu, I'm from Chicago.

Hannah Geller:

My name is Hannah Geller, and I'm from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Irvin Ungar:

My name is Irvin Ungar. I'm from Burlingame, California, which is near San Francisco.

Corey Sarcu:

As for why I love Israel, there are so many reasons. I think, culturally, Israel is kind of a crazy place. Everyone is very welcoming. They're almost aggressively welcoming in a way, like one of the first things, they meet you for five minutes, and they're already calling you achi, which means my brother, it goes along with the whole theme that really the Jewish people, we're all one big family, and Israel is just the natural manifestation of that in the state.

Hannah Geller:

I love how in Israel, I can walk on the street, I can be on the bus with someone, and a stranger will invite me to Shabbat dinner. I love how the woman at the pool will just hand her baby over to me if she has something else to be tending to–and I've never seen her in my life.

Irvin Ungar:

The reason I love Israel is probably-I've been here several dozen times. And the first time I arrived, I do remember feeling like I was coming home, and I'm still coming home. The question is why I left if I'm still coming home, and I've been here that many times, but nonetheless, that's the way I feel. I'm with my people. I'm with my people when I'm not in Israel. These are like my brothers. So I'm here. That's why I'm here.

___

1. Transcript of Interview with Yotam Politzer:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Yotam Politzer joined IsraAID, Israel's preeminent humanitarian aid organization, in 2011. In fact, he was the NGO's second employee. Since then, he has flown on dozens of aid missions personally helping more than a quarter million people after some of the world's worst disasters. In 2017, he took over IsraAID as its chief executive officer and has since expanded the reach of Israeli disaster aid around the world. Earlier this year, he received the Charles Bronfman Prize, a $100,000 award given to a Jewish humanitarian under 50. Yotam is with us now, in Tel Aviv. Yotam, welcome to People of the Pod.

Yotam Politzer: 

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So first, thank you for all that you are doing to quite literally repair the world. Tell us about your upbringing and what led you up that particular Jewish professional path.

Yotam Politzer: 

So, I wasn't thinking that I would end up chasing disasters around the world in places like the tsunami in Japan, or the Ebola outbreak, or most recently, Afghanistan, where we had a very dramatic operation. I grew up in a small village, in a small Moshav in the north part of Israel. My father is a social worker, my mom was a school counselor, and had a beautiful childhood. And before my military service in the IDF, I did something-it's kind of a gap, we call it in Hebrew Shnat Sherut, which translates to service year. And it's kind of a volunteering year before the military service. And I did that with youth at risk, many of them are from Ethiopia, Ethiopian Jews. It was an incredible year, probably one of the most meaningful years of my life and I kind of developed my passion not just for service, but also for working with people from other cultures, essentially, using humanitarian work not only to save lives, but also to build bridges.

And I learned so much from the Ethiopians that I worked with at that time. And then after my army service, like every Israeli, I followed what we call the hummus trail. Which is this crazy phenomenon with about 50,000 Israelis every year are traveling, backpacking after the army to kind of clear their heads from the tension of the service. Most people go to India or South America, I went to India. And it's called the hummus trail because the locals are starting to make hummus for the Israelis that are traveling. So I was following the hummus trail- hummus was not highly recommended. In India it has a bit of a curry taste to it.

But ended up arriving to Nepal. And I was planning to trek in the Himalayas. And I did that for a couple of weeks. And then I saw an ad that invited backpackers to volunteer with street children in Nepal, of all places. I thought well, it sounds cool. Oh, you know, I'll do it for a couple of weeks, I'll continue to Thailand or wherever I was going. I ended up staying there for three and a half years, really fell in love with that kind of work.

I came back to Israel and want to start my life and two weeks after I came back to Israel, that was 2011 the tsunami in Japan happened. Mega disaster, more than 20,000 people lost their lives, half a million people lost their homes. And IsraAID, which was at that time, a tiny organization with basically one employee and a few volunteers, offered me to lead a relief mission to Japan.

And again, I was supposed to go for two weeks and I ended up staying there for three years. 

So that's how it kind of all started for me. And interestingly for IsraAID, it used to be a disaster response organization, and it's still part of our DNA, but in Japan we realized that for us our impact could be not just immediate relief and pulling people out of the rubble and giving them medical support, etc. Also we need to look at long term impact. In Japan, a rich country, the third-largest economy, they didn't really need our support with immediate relief. But what we supported them with was trauma care for children.

Which, again, is an area that unfortunately, in Israel, not because everything is so perfect here, but because of our, you know, ongoing challenges from the trauma of the Holocaust to the ongoing conflict, we really developed this expertise to help children cope with trauma. 

So that's all how sort of how I started. And then from Japan, I went to the Ebola outbreak in West Africa, which was terrifying. I remember every night I used to wake up full of sweat. It's one of the symptoms of Ebola, but thank god, I'm okay. And then I led a mission in Nepal, after the earthquake they had in there, we actually had a very dramatic search and rescue operation. And we found the last survivor of the earthquake, was a woman who was trapped under the rubble for six days without food or water. 

And then I led a relief mission to Greece with a Syrian refugee, actually also in partnership with AJC's, some of AJC's team members actually joined me. And it was amazing, because these people were considered our enemies, and then all of a sudden, they receive support from us. 

We can touch base on that later. But so basically, I was chasing disasters until 2017, when I was offered to co-lead the organization, first as a co-CEO, and then from 2019, as the global CEO. So now, you know, we started as employee number two. Now we have about 350 of us in 16 countries. And it's just an amazing privilege. And I'm still learning every day. That's what keeps me going.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

In 16 countries, how are those countries identified and selected as locations for IsraAID?

Yotam Politzer:

So, so for Israel, and it may sound bad, but for us, disasters are opportunities. And it doesn't mean that we sit down and wait for disaster to happen, they will happen, whether we like it or not. And it could be, you know, climate related disasters like a hurricane or tsunami, or earthquake, or manmade disaster, like what's happening in Ukraine, or in Afghanistan, when the Taliban took over, or it could be even a pandemic, like, well, we all just experienced a global crisis. 

So whenever there's a crisis somewhere in the world, and it could be in a neighboring country like Turkey, where we just had an earthquake or in you know, the most remote places on earth like Vanuatu, near Fiji, we have an emergency response team that will deploy, many times in partnership with AJC. But we will send an emergency response team to essentially to do two things, one, to provide immediate relief, but to look for partners. And the partnership part is crucial, because we can't really do anything by ourselves.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

What about inside Israel?

Yotam Politzer:

So when you asked me how do we decide where to go, we decide where to go, where we have resources and partners who are interested in the type of expertise that we can provide. And this expertise is what we're bringing from Israel, whether it's water technology, trauma care that I mentioned, and other areas of response. We also know that so right now mentioned 16 countries, we have teams on the ground in Ukraine, actually responding to, you know, the bombing of the dam, just two days ago, our team was actually on the ground a few kilometers away from there. So thank God, they're safe. And but the good news is that we were able to respond immediately and we already have team on the ground. We have teams in Colombia supporting Venezuelan refugees. We have many teams in Africa, supporting the drought and some of the conflicts in South Sudan and elsewhere. The teams are not just Israelis. The Emergency Response Team deploys from here but very quickly, we identify local team members. So out of our 350 employees, many of them are actually local members of the communities that we train and support and they take the lead which is much more sustainable, because our end goal is not to be needed. Our end goal is to live the know-how and the capacity in the country, in the community, so they can support themselves.

Manya Brachear Pashman:   

What about inside Israel? Do you do anything–

Yotam Politzer: 

No, I mean, our mandate, IsraAID- it was established 22 years ago, actually by a group of activists and the vision was to bring Israeli expertise to the world's most vulnerable communities around the world, essentially saying, you know, Israel, again, not because everything is so perfect here, because of our challenges, we developed technologies, and techniques and methodologies that could and should be shared with disaster areas around the world. So many of the original members were actually  doctors and nurses, and people who were active here on a day to day basis, but wanted to share these know-how, and expertise with the world.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Why? Why not just keep it for yourselves?

Yotam Politzer: 

First of all, for several reasons, one, because we are global citizens. And we are influenced and influencing the world. And we should be a force for good. And it's really just the right thing to do. To that one, too, because we actually have an added value. We have unique expertise and unique experience that people don't have, everyone calls Israel, the startup nation, right. So we see ourselves as the humanitarian wing of the startup nation. And we also a little bit, South Korea says we think we should do more as Israelis and as a trade. So we're doing the best we can, we are reaching millions, but we should reach billions. So and the third reason, and that's also one of the reasons the organization is called East trade is that it's also an opportunity to build bridges. And I think that's where the agency partnership is crucial, because AJC is all about building bridges, right? Between the Jews and the world, if you will.

And that's where I think there's such a beautiful alignment of values and of the mission and vision of how, again, terrible crisis and tragedies could be, could become a game changer in building bridges. And these bridges are, you know, could be built with Syrian refugees who are considered our enemies. I remember, I was called a Syrian guy, you know, after we pulled out his daughter, in Greece, and we treated her, she almost drowned. She told me my worst enemy became my biggest supporter, or a group of 200 Afghans that we pulled out that are now sending me Shabbat, Shalom every every Shabbat. So that's kind of the obvious, right? But, there's a lot of bridges that needs to be built also with our friends, you know, you know, whether it's in Guatemala, which is a country that's very, you know, supportive of Israel, but like, but we are supporting them. So our goal at Israel is not to, we're not here to do diplomacy work, or we're not dealing with politics. But at the same time, we do see ourselves as representatives of the Israeli civil society. And we do see how an added value of our work is these very strong bridges that are being built both on the high level and on the People to People connection.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Have you ever encountered people who are not willing to accept help from Israeli agencies?

Yotam Politzer: 

So honestly, it almost never happened. In 99.5% of the cases, people were very happy to receive support from Israelis, and from IsraAID. Sometimes people did not expect it. So I would say they were positively shocked to receive support. But, I think they were happy for several reasons. One is because it actually helped. Two is because we're not just there for short term, we're actually staying long, longer than most organizations. So we arrived in the first 72 hours, but we are typically, you know, staying at an average of five years, in an area. So we build trust. And, and people see that it's not just, you know, a token support. 

Three, we have a very strong kind of multicultural team, right. When I mentioned the Syrian refugees, we had a lot of Arab Israelis, people who speak Arabic, who were able to provide the support. So it's not only professional, it's also a strong cultural understanding, and many of our local team members. The only cases I would say, which was a little bit complicated and challenging, was when we actually worked inside countries that don't have diplomatic relations with Israel. So when we worked with Syrians we didn't work inside Syria worked with Syrians who escaped. Same with Afghanistan. We help people evacuate from Afghanistan, but we didn't send our team inside. We did send our team inside Iraq, inside Bangladesh. 

And for security reasons, mainly, our local partners knew where we were from, but the local government didn't. So we had to be much more careful in terms of our visibility. We couldn't wear our t-shirts and our logos and you know, mainly for safety and security reasons for our staff. That's that's obviously a challenge. I mean, politics is there, whether we like it or not.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So in those situations, do you feel like you make headway with the citizens with the public that you're helping, that may have a long term effect on how the governments consider Israel in the future? Or is that something that you care about?

Yotam Politzer: 

I mean, we do care, we are from here, and your organization is called IsraAID, and probably my life would have been easier if I would be working for the UN or working for Doctors Without Borders, or for other organizations that don't have any affiliation with Israel, right. So we do care, we do care about building bridges. And we do care about changing people's perspectives.

One story that I have was from Sierra Leone, West Africa, during the Ebola crisis, we worked with the First Lady. And, she was shocked to receive support from the other side of the world, from Israel. She said, you came from Israel, all the way, I promise that, you know, when Sierra Leone will be Ebola free, me and my husband will come to visit Israel, and she actually followed her promise. So you know, that was like a very clear kind of diplomatic aspect. 

Now, when we went to Malawi, also in partnership with AJC, following the terrible cyclone that they had, the President was the one who welcomed us and said, how excited he is for the support. When we talk about the Syrian refugees we have supported over the years, we worked there for six years, about 120,000 of them. So we do believe it goes a long way, right? It's not just one or two people. It's not just anecdotal. Whether it will lead to a political change in the Middle East, maybe hopefully, it definitely does change the perspectives of hundreds of 1000s of people.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What is the budget of of IsraAID?

Yotam Politzer: 

So this year, we're close to $23 million. Yeah. We tripled ourselves in the last two years. Again, not because everything is great, but because the world has gone mad. And it was a series of events that, you know, that we responded to whether it's, you know, Afghanistan, and Ukraine, of course, is an ongoing disaster and Turkey and others. So yeah, so we are in $24 million, we are growing, and planning to grow to $50 million in the next few years. 

Which is really what we believe we need in order to continue responding in the countries that we are in have some kind of an emergency fund that enables us to respond to new crisis. By the way, I want to say that that's where AJC's has been an incredible partner, because AJC, I think, supported us in more than 20 countries over the last few years. And one of the main challenges is that there's a disaster in Country X, and we need seed funding, we need to be able to deploy immediately. 

And that's typically what AJC provides. So and by the way, it's in places that are all over the media, like Ukraine, for instance, or in places like Malawi, that no one heard of. And that's crucial, because we know, unfortunately, that media attention equals to donor attention. So when things are in the media, it's much easier to raise funds, it's also limited, right? It's usually like a week or two, and then people move to the next tweet. When you're an expert, you probably know that. 

But AJC has been there on both kind of the more high profile and low profile and really has been an incredible partner that really enabled us. Because once you're on the ground, it's not only that you're saving lives, which is, you know, our main goal, it's also you build partnership and relationship and you're able to communicate to the world that you're doing that so you can raise more money. So, so deploying quickly is important for several reasons. And AJC, you know, basically enabled us to do that. So that's huge for us.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

If someone wants to volunteer for IsraAID, are there opportunities to do that?

Yotam Politzer: 

There are opportunities to do that, although I do have to say something because–we were based more on short term volunteers in the past. And there's a serious problem with that. Many people who come for a short term are actually doing more damage than good. I mean, they come with great intentions. But they start something that, you know, there's no continuation or if there's a lot of pictures with children in Africa, it's a very criticized field. Now, having said that, there are still people who have specific expertise–surgeons, for example, eye surgeons, you know, in a few days of volunteering, they could save people's lives, right. So, we're not against it, it needs to be people who are highly skilled, or people who can commit for long term. And we do take insurance, for example, college students, mainly graduate students, not so much undergrad, from specific fields who are looking for professional fellowships or internships in many of the countries. So there are definitely opportunities both for younger and for people who are young at heart. But the expertise or the long term commitment is crucial.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Responding to those kinds of crises, how does that reflect Jewish values? In other words, how do some of these crises contradict or violate Jewish teachings, Jewish values? And how much of a role does that play in you coming in to address it?

Yotam Politzer: 

So I think, you know, our team, just to clarify, is not just Jewish, right? We have Jews, Christians, Muslim, Buddhist, you know, other people. So it's a very diverse team, from any perspective, definitely, from a religious perspective. However, I think many of our team members are inspired by Jewish values. I mean, there's the obvious one of tikkun olam, which, you know, I think it almost became a buzzword, I heard so many people use it. So we almost don't use it because it became such a buzzword, but essentially, how we interpret this Jewish value is our responsibility to look beyond just our community. And to support the world's most vulnerable communities and really, literally repairing the world are supporting the repairment of the world. So that's kind of the clear connection, I don't I do think that everything that related to helping the strangers, right, people who are not just from our immediate community, is something that we strongly, strongly believe in. 

I mean, there's a story that I always share about Ukraine. You know, if you're a Ukrainian Jew 80 years ago, you are-during the World War Two. You are at the bottom of the bottom of the barrel right? You're likely to be slaughtered by the Nazis or by their Ukrainian collaborators. And today in Ukraine, the Jewish community is a big Jewish community, they are receiving so much support, which is amazing to think about it from a historical perspective, they are entitled to support from the Israeli government and from the Jewish Agency. And from the JDC, from so many great organizations who are focusing on supporting Jews in Ukraine. I don't know if you heard that. But in the beginning of the war, when millions of people fled Ukraine, the Jews were told the Jewish refugees were told to put a sign with the letters I-L for Israel, and they were taken out of the lines, and prioritized. 

So it's unheard of like, the tables have turned right. Which is amazing. However, what we take from it is that we have responsibility. And that's why it's so important that now Jews and Israelis show the world that we support everyone, not just Jews. And that we are different, and that we are there for everyone. And we are there even for people who are considered our enemies.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

My last question is, I have to admit, every time you've talked about vulnerable people, I hear you say valuable, I just misheard you. But then I think, well valuable, vulnerable, one in the same. And I'm curious, what you have learned from the communities and people that you've served in this capacity, and also whether they have gone on to teach and volunteer and help and pay it forward?

Yotam Politzer: 

It's a great question. And I like it, I never heard this... But that's exactly how, not only me, but all of our team members feel like–vulnerable, our communities are also extremely valuable. And in many places, we see our role, not just in bringing the expertise and know-how but actually, in a way putting a spotlight on local expertise and local know-how. And that's how, in many of our countries of operation, now, the people who are leading the response are actually local members of the community, who received some training and support from us, but actually bringing their own cultural expertise. 

And we've been learning so much from these people, again, from languages to cultures to how you find very innovative solutions when there are very limited resources. It's a really two way street, of learning. And now, many of our team members on the regional level, actually, when there is a crisis in a neighboring country, together with our team from Israel, they respond. 

So now in Malawi, for instance, we sent a team from Israel and Kenya, together, when there was another crisis in the Caribbean, we sent a team from Dominica. So, because they know they're there, so practically, it's much quicker and they understand the local culture and context. So, definitely a big part of our role is to build this global team of disaster responders who can respond to disasters, both globally and locally and in the region. So we see how that becomes more of a bigger part of our strategy now to utilize local and regional resources, to support communities at risk. So it's not only, we're coming from the west, sort of with this know-how, we're combining that with local know-how and expertise.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You're not just parachuting in and imposing your solutions.

Yotam Politzer: 

Exactly. We co-create solutions.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Yotam, thank you so much, I really appreciate you sharing this time with us.

Yotam Politzer: 

Thanks for having me. And thanks for a wonderful partnership with AJC throughout the years.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

If you missed last week's episode, be sure to listen to AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson break down last week's passage of Israel's Reasonableness Standard Law and what it means for Israel's democracy and security.

Candace Bazemore and Gabby Leon Spatt, authors of the award-winning children's book Shabbat and Sunday Dinner, are traveling to Washington, D.C., this week to help AJC, the National Urban League, and ADL relaunch the bipartisan Congressional Caucus on Black-Jewish Relations. Together with Dov Wilker, AJC's Director of Black-Jewish Relations, they discuss what can be accomplished through building stronger bridges between the Black and Jewish communities and how our diversity is a source of connection, not division.

More on the authors: Bazemore and Leon Spatt are members of AJC Atlanta's Black/Jewish Coalition. They are also participants of AJC's Project Understanding, which is a signature achievement of the coalition.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Candace Bazemore and Gabby Leon Spatt

Show Notes:

Listen:

• Meet 3 Women Who are Driving Change in the Middle East

Watch:

• Learn more about the Congressional Black-Jewish Caucus relaunch

Learn:

• Launch of Congressional Black-Jewish Caucus (2019)

• Project Understanding

• Shabbat and Sunday Dinner by Candace Bazemore and Gabby Leon Spatt

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Candace Bazemore and Gabby Leon Spatt:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

This week, American Jewish Committee is helping to relaunch the bipartisan Congressional Caucus on Black-Jewish Relations. Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz of Florida will join some new House leaders including Congressman Wesley Hunt of Texas and Congresswoman Nikema Williams of Georgia. The caucus aims to raise awareness of sensitivities in both the Black and Jewish communities, combat stereotypes, and showcase commonalities. And with us this week to talk about their efforts to do the same are Candace Bazemore and Gabby Leon Spatt, co-authors of the children's book Shabbat and Sunday Dinner, which was honored with the Award of Excellence from the Religion Communicators Council. Both are members of the Black/Jewish Coalition and participants in AJC's Project Understanding, a biannual weekend of dialogue to develop understanding and friendships between leaders of the Black and Jewish communities. Our guest host this week is Dov Wilker, AJC's Director of Black Jewish Relations. Dov, the mic is yours.

Dov Wilker:

Thank you, Manya. Candace and Gabby, welcome to People of the Pod.

Candace Bazemore:

Thank you. We're excited to be here.

Gabby Leon Spatt:

It's a great opportunity. We're really excited to chat with you. 

Dov Wilker:  

Well, wonderful, we're just gonna jump right on in. And so I'm curious, Gabby, Candace, how did y'all meet? And how did you go from being friends to co-authors?

Gabby Leon Spatt:

Candace and I are both transplants to Atlanta, growing up in Florida, Virginia, both moving here for college or after college. And our original meeting actually was through the Junior League of Atlanta. We served on a committee together and launched a leadership program that was trading opportunities for Junior League members. But when we really met and realized how much we really adore each other, love each other, learn from each other, was from our shared experience of both attending Project Understanding, which is a program of Atlanta's AJC office, the Black-Jewish Coalition. And once we realized we both had that experience, our conversations changed, our friendship deepened, we really had the opportunity to share to learn to have meaningful conversations. And one day, we were planning an alumni event for Project Understanding participants, and we kind of talked about writing a book. And I'll let Candace share a little bit more about that.

Candace Bazemore:

Yeah, well, first of all, knowing how we met is like a very cool thing, because it just showcases some of the great ways that Atlanta already has great systems and organizations in place to help people look for ways to build across different community lines. I probably would have never met Gabby otherwise, which means that the book that we wrote together would have never happened. And the way the book came about was actually really cool. During the pandemic, we got tapped to help be on a planning committee for the Project Understanding's alumni New Year's Day brunch, which was going to be virtual, since no one could go anywhere, because of COVID. In the middle of one of the planning sessions, actually, at the start of one of the planning sessions, we were waiting for the two guys to join, of course, all the ladies got on first. And...

Dov Wilker:  

I take offense to that. 

Candace Bazemore:

It's fine. It's okay. It's true, though. And so we were discussing what we were planning on having for the brunch, because we were encouraging everyone to find a traditional meal to have for the brunch so people could be eating and talking, even though we couldn't be in the same place. And Gabby shared, she was going to have bagels and lox and I said chicken and waffles. But I didn't know like, what's bagels and lox? And we're like, Wouldn't it be a great idea to share recipes as a way to unite people? And then that led to us to kind of discussing like, you know, well, there's tons of recipe books out there. But what if we tried to get people earlier to start thinking about it. And so that's how we got to the idea of a children's book. 

Dov Wilker:  

Wait, I have to ask, have either of you written a children's book before?

Gabby Leon Spatt:

Definitely not, no.

Candace Bazemore:

No, this is our first children's book. I've written a ton of blogs.

Dov Wilker:  

Have you ever written a book before?

Candace Bazemore:

No, not since being like a little, no. Everybody does, like young authors or something like that in school, but not a book book. This is our first.

Gabby Leon Spatt:

We like stretch projects. We like to try new things in between taking care of our friends, our families, our full time jobs, you know.

Dov Wilker:  

You've got boundless energy, the two of you. 

Gabby Leon Spatt:

Yes we do.

Dov Wilker:  

What do you hope that readers are gonna gain from the book? I mean, in the year or so since it's been released, what's been the response?

Gabby Leon Spatt:

The experience, the stories we hear, I mean, I'll be sitting in a meeting, and somebody says, I read that book to my granddaughter, and it's the only one she wants to read now, and she just took so much away from it. But for us, I think the big picture is when you open your stomach at a dinner table, there's a way to start to open your heart and your mind. And Candace and I have shared so many life events together, holiday dinners, Shabbat dinners, Sunday dinners, just real times, where we've had that opportunity to kind of dive in and when you taste something new or something different, and you're at someone's home or their family member cooks it–there's always a story that goes behind it. 

And that's really the inspiration of this book is that the dinner table is a special place that brings people, ideas, and cultures together. And we thought, how do we tell this story, and the story was about telling our own family traditions, and what we typically do when we celebrate a Friday night Shabbat dinner, or a Sunday dinner. 

And so the characters, you know, are loosely mirrored after us and our families, and what the dinner means to us. And so the story follows two friends through their class presentations, as they learn more about each other's family traditions. And the hope is that the book introduces readers to other cultures and communities, and that we pique some interest in learning about other traditions. And the book is a great, you know, conversation starter, not just for children, but even for adults who maybe haven't had some of those unique experiences. For us, it was really important to be able to tell them more than just the story within the book. But we tell a little bit of the history of Black-Jewish relations. And we also have a page that is continuing the conversation.

Dov Wilker:  

I'm curious, Candace, has that been your experience as well, I mean, you sit in a meeting, and someone tells you about the book that they've read that their grandchild only wants to only wants to read that, or you got another story? 

Candace Bazemore:

Yeah, actually, I have a couple of stories like that, I actually had an opportunity to speak at a children's center here in Virginia. And the kids were so excited, they were sharing their family dinner traditions, and things like that. So that was very cool that came from the book reading. And we've had, I was actually in a meeting last night and a program associated with AJC, and we were all talking about some plans for a program for young people. And one of the organizers mentioned about our book, and two of the people in the meeting had the book that they read to their young kids. And that's their favorite book. So it was like, very cool. I was like, Oh, my god, yeah, that's great. 

But one of the coolest things, I'm in a friend's group with Gabby and some other black and Jewish women. And one of the members, when we first launched the book, she ordered it on Amazon, and it got delivered to her neighbor's house by accident. And she had never met the neighbor, the neighbor just opened, because of course, it was during the pandemic,  the height of everybody getting Amazon orders. And so she just was like, Oh, this must be my order. She opens it up. It's a book, she doesn't know what it is. But it's, you know, the cover was inviting, she opened it up, she read the whole book, and then she put it back in the envelope with a personal note to our friend, and said, hey, you know, I got this book by mistake, I was really excited and really love this story. The images inside, the message, and I read some of the questions at the end. I'd love to get together with you over dinner, to talk more about it, because I'd love to learn more about your community. So that's how she became friends with her neighbor through the book. So it's very cool. 

Dov Wilker:  

That's really an incredible story for so many reasons. So this Thursday, July 13, AJC's marking the relaunch of the Congressional Caucus on Black-Jewish Relations, where the two of you will be sharing your story. What do you hope our nation's leaders will gain from hearing about your experience?

Gabby Leon Spatt:

So we're really excited to be at the relaunch of the Congressional Caucus. I think, for us, the hope is for people to know that this work is happening, these communities are engaging already, revisiting the past, this is not a new relationship. This is one that is rooted in many, many, many years of friendship, of teaching, of learning. And it's still happening. It's just maybe happening, you know, in a new way. I hope that we're able to inspire those that are in the room, including the congressmen and the congresswomen to really make this part of the agenda, to really celebrate the relationship and show the impact we can make and that we are making.

Dov Wilker:  

I love that. I couldn't agree more. So the goals of the caucus are to raise awareness, provide resources and unite black and Jewish, and black-Jewish communities to combat hate and stereotypes. How do you think the caucus can achieve that? Big picture here.

Candace Bazemore:

First of all, it's a great question. I'm gonna give you a little bit of background about myself. And the fact that I actually was in college, a Congressional Black Caucus Foundation congressional intern. So I spent a summer working on the hill, in Congressman Scott, Robert C. Scott's office, Bobby Scott, from the Third District of Virginia. And it was very cool to see some of the great things they were doing to help shape young minds and future leaders. And I think that the caucus and the role of congressional leaders and just leadership in general requires you to look at ways to unite and to get your constituents and your communities that you touch, to look for ways to work together. 

I mean, the goal of a congressperson is to take their district and help make it better. I know in recent years, we've seen leadership go in the wrong direction. But these leaders have the opportunity to build bridges instead of tear them down. And so they can be the catalyst for change in their communities, they have the ability to direct resources and to direct attention, as well as to put their time on these topics. So they're already doing it by obviously relaunching the program and the caucus. And so the next step is then to empower their constituents to start these dialogues, start these conversations. And, and I think this gives them a reason, and also the organizations that they touch, a reason to start looking for ways to unite these communities.

Dov Wilker:  

Excellent. So, you know, I want to take it a little more local, before we go back to the macro national level. Can you tell us more about your experience with Project Understanding? So for those that don't know, our listeners, AJC's Atlanta office has been running this, Marvin C. Goldstein Project Understanding Black Jewish retreat, every other year, since 1990-ish. We bring together 18 black and Jewish and some black-Jewish leaders to be a part of the conversation. So 36, in total. For 24 hours of intense dialogue. So I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about that experience for you. And if you've been involved since then, beyond writing this book together, and I think Candace, you even referenced a new initiative that you're a part of, so I was wondering, if you could share a little bit more about that, too.

Gabby Leon Spatt:

Yes. So, you know, I mentioned earlier, the retreat was just eye opening, really moving. You know, I grew up, the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, we were told, you always love everybody. The idea in my family of not liking somebody just because of their skin color, or their culture or their religion. It just didn't exist. And I don't know that I noticed, you know, growing up, I was already kind of doing some of this work. 

And I had a mentor of mine in college, who was my Greek advisor. And we talked a lot about black and Jewish relations at the time, he asked me to make him, challah French toast because he always associated challah with Jewish. And I said, Sure. And I went to church with him, actually, here in Atlanta, we were here for a conference. And, you know, it just kind of happened authentically. And coming to Atlanta and getting connected with AJC, and the Black-Jewish Coalition. And then Project Understanding. I think I realized how powerful the experiences I had in the past were, and this just felt like home for me. And it's also, Dov, it's incredible to see how you've invested more into the program and opened it up to a generation above, reaching 40 to 55 year olds, but also this year, launching a high school program. And so I think the impact of the retreat, that happens immediately, but also has a long lasting impact, we've really been able to make change within the Atlanta community.

Dov Wilker:  

Candace, how about for you?

Candace Bazemore:

Yeah. Well, you know, first of all, Gabby touched on all the things that are dear to my heart about, you know, what we've learned along the way in our journey together. I kind of like listening to her talk about some of the programs were a part of. I mean, to see people from Project Understanding, the Black Jewish Coalition at events for the United Way or for the Junior League. I recently hosted a fundraiser for the Amario's Art Academy, which was a sneaker ball to help this, this program that helps young kids connect with arts and art opportunities that they wouldn't normally have, because they don't have the access to afford expensive art programs. And to have Gabby and her husband show up and have such a great time, and other people from other programs that were associated.

So it's great to see how much the community building how it blends across everything that helps the community grow and be more diverse. And she even mentioned the the team program, through Project Understanding, it's the Black Jewish Teen Initiative is what it's called. So applications are open for this great program where the teens get to participate, they're high school juniors and seniors from across Greater Atlanta, coming together to learn about, black Jewish relationships, to learn about, like the impact of racism, antisemitism, to learn about diversity within the black and Jewish communities.

So I mean, I'm just super excited about some of the things that have come from these programs. And, and the fact that we're more forward thinking. So the idea of the book is a way to get in front of young minds, the idea of this program is to get in front of teen minds, the Project Understanding traditional program is for those emerging leaders. And now the new programs that are for people who maybe weren't around when these programs existed to instill, learn and build communities as they get older. We're looking at the whole life of people, how do you build relationships your whole life, so that those communities when you need them already there, you already know someone you can pick up the phone and say, Hey, how do I do this? What's the best way to do this? Or I made a mistake? How do I improve? How do I correct this? By having these relationships, there's more opportunity for grace. So, you know, gaps may happen, mistakes can happen. But if you have relationships, you have something that you can, dip into and say, Hey, how do we do things better? How do we do things differently? 

Gabby Leon Spatt:

I think it's also, you know, special to point out, we're one story, we're one outcome, right? There have been other individuals who have participated in Project understanding, who have started a barbecue team at the Atlanta Kosher BBQ Festival, which happens to be the largest kosher barbecue festival in the entire country. And that, you know, became a learning experience, just for themselves to be on the team, you had to go through Project Understanding, you know, and there's this cultural experience of explaining what kosher meat is. And you don't want to put extra salt in the rub, because it's already salted right. And when you like, the, you know, the barbecue, that has to be after Shabbat on sundown on Saturday, and the mashgiach has to light it. And then it's like, Who is that, right? And so the stuff that's happening in our community is so authentic, it just is happening, and it's so nice to see people just wanting to learn and continue the conversation past just the retreat.

Dov Wilker:  

I can also share that as an attendee of the BBQ Festival. It's not just that they're there together,they're grilling good meat. It's a very tasty experience to attend. Alright, so one final question. What are ways that we can highlight the positive worker interactions between our two communities?

Candace Bazemore:

Well, that's a great question. I always say the best way to highlight it is to ask people to share their individual stories. And me being a digital person, definitely utilize social media in order to get the word out about the ways that you know you're working together. If you're in a room with someone who doesn't look like you, and you're working on these tough problems and coming up with great solutions. share a post about that, encourage someone else to do that, too. If you have an event coming up, invite someone else out to come with it, that normally wouldn't be in the room. So I don't know how many times me and Gabby have been the only ones of us in a room before. A great example. I was in town during the great challah bake. And 300 Jewish women at the-was it at the Bernie Marcus center? 

Gabby Leon Spatt:

Yes, the Jewish Community Center. 

Candace Bazemore:

Jewish Community Center. Yeah. And so I was the only black woman or maybe one or two in the whole room? 

Gabby Leon Spatt:

It was just you.

Candace Bazemore:

It was just me, okay. And was having a good old time making some challah bread. Because challah's my thing. Obviously, Gabby has shown me how to make challah bread. So I'm actually pretty good at it. She's getting good at deep fried cornbread as a matter of fact as well. 

Gabby Leon Spatt:

Oh it's so good. I think it's opportunities like this, being able to be invited to share your story. And I think the caucus is really going to highlight a lot of what is happening across the country already, and give, you know, local advocates on the ground doing the work the opportunity to shine and to tell their story, because I think more than anything, storytelling is impactful, and it hits, at people's hearts and people's minds, and in our case, people's stomachs.

Dov Wilker:  

Well, thank you, Gabby, and Candice, Candice and Gabby, we are so grateful for the book that you've written for the delicious food, that you're helping to inspire being made across this beautiful country, and to your participation in the relaunch of the Congressional Caucus on Black-Jewish relations. 

Candace Bazemore:

Thank you. Dov. 

Gabby Leon Spatt:

Thanks.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

If you missed last week's episode, tune in for an exclusive conversation between three women leading transformation in the Middle East and AJC Abu Dhabi Program Director Reva Gorelick onstage at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv.

AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson breaks down what Israel's recently-enacted judicial reform means for the future of the only democracy in the Middle East. The Reasonableness Standard Law will limit the Israeli Supreme Court's ability to review the "reasonableness" of government decisions. Isaacson also provides listeners AJC's perspective on the contentious bill and takes us beyond the headlines to show AJC's support for President Herzog's efforts to reach a compromise and what's next for Israel.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Jason Isaacson

Show Notes:

Learn:

• What You Need to Know About Israel's Judicial Reforms

Listen:

• Matti Friedman on How the 1973 Yom Kippur War Impacted Leonard Cohen and What It Means Today

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Jason Isaacson:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

This week in Israel, a majority of Israeli lawmakers, those in the governing coalition, passed the contentious and divisive reasonableness standard law, which will limit the high court of Israel's role to limit and overturn government decisions that seem unreasonable. The new law, the first of several proposed reforms to Israel's judiciary, follows 29 weeks of protests by hundreds of thousands of Israelis, and has sparked threats by labor unions to strike, by businesses to shift investments, by military reservists to decline to serve.

Joining us today to explain what the passage of this law might mean for Israel's democracy is AJC chief policy and political affairs officer Jason Isaacson. Jason, welcome to People of the Pod.

Jason Isaacson: 

Thank you, Manya. Good to be back.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So Jason, for those listeners who don't quite understand the judicial reforms process in Israel, I want to steer them to our show notes to help them get up to speed. Here, I'd like to devote this time to what it means. But first I do have a fairly basic question. Would you please share AJC's perspective on the package of proposals?

Jason Isaacson: 

Thank you for asking, Manya, when the package was put forward by the new governing coalition, the beginning of this year, we we met with senior officials of the government, including Prime Minister Netanyahu, and expressed concern that such an ambitious package should only advance with the broadest possible support in Israel if you're going to change fundamentally, the rules of the game and how Israel is governed, the balance of power, the checks and balances that exist between the legislative branch and the judicial branch. 

And you have to point out that in Israel, the legislative branch and the executive are virtually the same. They're in the same party. So it's the balance of power between the judiciary and the rest of the government. If you're going to make that kind of a fundamental change, you really need to strike a national consensus, the broadest possible consensus. So we encouraged the prime minister, and we also met with opposition leaders early in the year, and an urge that they get together and try to work out some kind of a compromise. 

It's not as though altering the system of government is a crazy thing. The Supreme Court, the High Court of Justice in Israel is an unusually empowered court. It has extraordinary power to strike down government actions. So it's not crazy. And then in the past, over the years, there have been other efforts to adjust it and adjustments have been made in this balance of power, the way the judiciary operates. That passed, there's a multistage process and passing legislation in the Israeli Knesset. If you're going to make these kinds of big changes, you really need to add, look, by the way, look, what's happened in Israeli society over the last 29 weeks, there have been protests every week, sometimes more than once a week, hundreds of 1000s of people have been out in the streets of massive display. Democracy has been on full display in Israel over this period. And it was very clear from public opinion polls, that many of these really public were not happy with this proposal and with the whole package, if it was going to be rammed through unilaterally, so unfortunately, it was pushed through unilaterally this one piece of the package. And now the question is, what happens next? Will we have other pieces move forward unilaterally? Will negotiations be reconvened? We have called for a reconvening of these talks under President Herzog, have met repeatedly with President Herzog and supported his efforts. And we're hopeful that will be where we end up.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You mentioned that democracy was on display with the many protests. But some people have said the passage of this law means that democracy in Israel is at risk. So I'm curious what your take is on that. Is democracy at risk, and why is preserving democracy so important? What's at stake?

Jason Isaacson: 

Well, Israel is a democracy, Israel will continue to be a democracy, there have been many exaggerated obituaries of Israeli democracy. I would like to put those to rest. I'm sorry, that was kind of a terrible pun. But in fact, in our country, there are tensions, we had an uprising on January 6 of 2021. People tried to take over the US Congress and prevent the transfer of power. We have huge polarization and divisions and tensions in our own democratic system. No one would dare to say that America is not a democracy, even with these challenges, even changing voting rights laws, and gerrymandering and all the other things that happen at the state level and the national level, to make alterations in our democratic system. We have our own system of appointing Supreme Court justices, and it's possible for a party in power to prevent the appointment of a justice and to ram through other justices on weird pretexts. 

So it's not as though we have a perfect system, nor does Israel and Israel has shown itself to have an enduring, deeply rooted democracy. I am confident that the democratic traditions in Israel will endure even with this change in the way the balance of power is going to operate going forward. And by the way, it also must be pointed out that even though the Supreme Court, the High Court of Justice in Israel, no longer according to the As law will be able to use the reasonableness standard, in other words to say that a government action, an appointment is unreasonable and therefore cannot move forward. It has other tools that it can use. It's not as though the Supreme Court has been completely denuded and deprived of its ability to counteract, to overturn, to change government policy. 

But it does weaken the process that the Supreme Court has been using in the past. And it is unfortunate that it was rammed through unilaterally, does that mean that Israel is not a democracy? By no means? Does that mean that more work has to be done to shore up Israeli democracy? Yes. And by the way, ours as well, and other countries in which there are these tensions in society. We all have challenges. This is the nature of democracy.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I'm curious if this particular moment, even if it doesn't put Israel's democracy at risk, does it put Israel's economy or its safety? 

Jason Isaacson: 

There's a danger. We have seen reports that there are people who are withdrawing their investments in Israel, moving them to other countries. That there are Israeli companies that are moving certain operations or certain functions overseas. There are, of course, as we have seen, reports of reservists saying that they will not serve in the military, when they're called for reserve duty. All very concerning at a time when Israel's level of a threat to Israel from abroad is high. There have been attacks on Israel, not only from Gaza, which have been numerous and deadly, but also, of course, on the North. 100,000-plus missiles, maybe 150,000-plus missiles. Hezbollah every now and then someone takes a shot into Israel from there, from Syria as well. Iran continues to advance its nuclear program and its ballistic missile program, and every now and then shoot something in the sky over Israel as well.

So it's not as though the threat level to Israel isn't something we should be concerned about. And therefore the security of Israel must be taken extremely seriously. If reservists are not serving. If air force pilots are not flying, Israel security is under threat. And if that is the result of changes in the governing structure of Israel, it should be a warning, a very sharp warning to the Israeli Government to go slow, as the recent American ambassador to Israel, Tom Nides famously told the Prime Minister and told us when we met him earlier this year as well, they should pump the brakes. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You talked about the many threats facing Israel and for that reason, US foreign aid has been key to maintaining stability in the region. Does this development put that at risk?

Jason Isaacson: 

I don't think so. Obviously, we watch that very closely. We're on the hill all the time. We speak frequently with members of Congress and their staff. You saw what happened the day before President Hertzog gave his address before a joint meeting of Congress, Senators and House members just last week, and that was a vote in the US House of Representatives on the essential nature of the relationship between the United States and Israel, reaffirming the strong alliance between the United States and Israel and that measure passed overwhelmingly, there were nine votes against that. One member abstained. But people talk all the time about elements of the Democratic Party, other opponents of foreign aid who speak out against aid to Israel or threaten to cut aid to Israel. 

You know, when push comes to shove and votes are taken, that's really not what happens at the end. I'm not saying that there isn't a concern about levels of support for Israel in the US Congress or in the broad public. Of course, that is an issue that AJC monitors closely and works very hard to make sure that there's a full appreciation of the value of the relationship, the mutually beneficial relationship between the United States and Israel. Our security is advanced when Israel security is advanced and vice versa, as president Herzog in fact, said in his speech to Congress last week.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

As I mentioned, hundreds of 1000s of Israelis have been on the streets protesting for 29 weeks now, even in the heat of the summer there, which is highly impressive. Some people credit those protests with slowing some of the reforms. Can you explain to our listeners what has been shelved?

Jason Isaacson: 

It's an interesting question Manya because, in fact, as you know, the governing coalition in Israel includes elements that want to see really a complete overhaul of the judiciary and have a complete rebalancing of the relationship of the courts and in the legislature, and are not interested in shelving any aspect of the very ambitious proposal that was put forward at the beginning of this of the term of this of this government.

The Prime Minister has indicated in various interviews in over the last several months, that he was not interested in advancing certain aspects, particularly the override clause, which would have empowered the legislature to counteract moves by the by the judiciary by the High Court to, to negate to cancel certain actions by the parliament or by the government. And the narrowness of that vote, that would allow a very slim majority in the legislature to overrule the court. There have been questions raised about whether other elements of his coalition feel the same way and whether they would prevail with the Prime Minister if push comes to shove. So we're waiting to see really how much is shelved, how much is just kind of shelved temporarily and will not move forward for a few months, but may come back. A lot remains to be seen.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Could the High Court itself overturn this new law as unreasonable?

Jason Isaacson: 

There's been some talk about that. And just earlier this week, colleagues and I did speak to some people in the democracy movement or the resistance, as they call it. And were given the impression that while attempts have been made, there wasn't the expectation that the court would do that. But it's possible to say that an attempt to change the reasonableness standard is unreasonable, and to therefore strike it down, and then and then who knows what happens, but I really do think that the best course of action is to bring the parties back together. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So AJC has been very clear about its support of President Herzog's quest for compromise. The President's position though is largely ceremonial. Can he bring parties together that don't want to be brought together? Can he halt legislation that does not come out of compromise? Does he have any power to do that?

Jason Isaacson: 

The legislation that passes the Knesset has to be signed by the President. But he has no power not to sign legislation that's passed by the Knesset. So in fact, there are laws that go into effect, even without the President's signature, it's an unusual system. He does have certain powers to obviously, as you know, after an election, to ask a party that believes that it can come up with a majority in the Knesset and form of government, he does have that power to empower a party to advance to form a government. But his other powers are quite limited does have the power of persuasion, he doesn't have the power of the bully pulpit, he does have the great moral authority of being the head of state of the state of Israel. He was received in the highest fashion in Washington, very important meeting in the Oval Office, an important meeting with the Vice President, of course, the address before the joint meeting of Congress. And he has played his hand, as limited as it may be on paper, he has played his hand really quite well to the point where he really is at the center of the discussions that have gone forward.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Jason, why is the governing coalition so determined to restrict the high court's powers?

Jason Isaacson: 

Whether this is a matter of protecting democracy, or protecting a nationalist agenda is a big debate that's going on right now in Israel. But whatever it is, you really cannot change the fundamental rules of how a government operates, the balance of power between the branches of government, without support from the public. And right now, the public has pretty clearly expressed great anxiety about the direction that this process is taking. It would be wiser for the long term survival and support of the current government, and of the state of Israel, if such changes are made only as a result of the national consensus.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Israel is so diverse when it comes to religion and ethnicities and cultures. It's so complex, that an independent judiciary seems crucial for making sure everyone shares this land. Everyone is treated by the Golden Rule equally. You talked about the High Court protecting minority rights. Is that why this decision, this attempt at reforms seems so momentous?

Jason Isaacson: 

Yes. And I would say there are other reasons as well. And another point that I think is important to make is that the independence of the Israeli judiciary, a judiciary that is independent from the political process, to a large degree, not completely, but to a large degree is armor for Israel legally, internationally. It is the ability of Israelis to say to those in the international community and the High Court of Justice and the internet. The Court of Justice excuse me and the International Criminal Court and the United Nations and other international bodies that say, Oh, we're going to say that Israelis are committing war crimes or we're going to hold some, some, some mock trial or some other international legal action against Israel. Israelis can say and we say in AJC, that's nonsense. You don't need to do that. Israel has an independent judiciary, if there are crimes that are being committed by Israeli soldiers or political figures, Israel will prosecute them, as they have done repeatedly, Israel will put prime ministers and presidents in jail. So don't tell us that Israelis' ability to judge themselves is somehow lacking.

It's very important that Israel maintain an independent judiciary and the international recognition of the independence of the Israeli judiciary, which is another reason why this whole debate has been so frustrating to advocates for Israel like AJC, who know that the judiciary will remain independent, in most part, and democracy and Israel will continue to be strong, but just the appearance that the independence of the judiciary has been weakened, will be corrosive politically to Israel, internationally and legally to Israel internationally. And that's another reason why we have been so steadfast and trying to urge the Israelis to go slow, make this done in a way that has broad popular support and international recognition that the Judiciary's independence is being upheld and is sacrosanct.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

We're having this conversation on the eve of Tisha B'av, which is the saddest day on the Jewish calendar. It marks a number of tragic turning points for the Jewish people, but namely the destruction of the Second Temple, and the beginning of Jewish exile from Israel. My own rabbi reminded our congregation that the Jewish tradition teaches that division in the Jewish community is what ultimately led to the Temple's destruction. And here we are again. How likely is it that the coalition members will fast, reflect, and work to heal this rift in Israel?

Jason Isaacson: 

That's an interesting question, and it was also interesting to see former US ambassador to Israel, David Friedman, make that same reference in a tweet the other day, and really call for a consensus, for a more deliberative process, than the unilateral approach that was being pursued.

We're now about to enter a two and a half month period of summer recess basically for the Israeli Knesset. We'll see what happens when they come back in the fall. There's other legislation that will be coming down the pike as well, including a very ambitious proposal to entrench the exemption for the ultra orthodox community to conduct Torah study, rather than serve mandatory military service that other Israeli young people are required to, to attend. Whether that moves forward, whether that also sparks popular unrest, it remains to be seen. Israel is in a very interesting place right now. The democracy of Israel as we discussed is on full display. People are out there, they're motivated, they're active. And there are tensions within the society that are right on the surface in a way that does not exist in certainly any other country in the region. 

We're very proud of the fact that with free expression and a rambunctious free press, and people who have very strong feelings are not afraid, and have no inhibition whatsoever about stepping forward and trying to affect the policies of their government. There will also be other elections in Israel. And if  the country veers too far in one direction or another, I have full confidence that the Israeli public with its strong commitment to liberal democracy will pull it back.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Jason, thank you so much for your perspective, and for really helping us explain to our audience what this all means.

Jason Isaacson: 

Thank you, Manya. It was my pleasure.

Last month, we sat down with journalist and author Matti Friedman in a Jerusalem studio to talk about Leonard Cohen, the Israel-Diaspora relationship, and the turning point that was the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Selected by Vanity Fair as one of the best books of 2022, Friedman's "Who by Fire: Leonard Cohen in the Sinai," explores the late poet and singer's concert tour on the front lines of the Yom Kippur War – a historic moment of introspection for the Jewish State that continues to reverberate through events we witness today. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

__

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Matti Friedman

__

Show Notes:

Listen:

• From the Black-Jewish Caucus to Shabbat and Sunday Dinners: Connecting Through Food and Allyship

• How to Tell Fact from Fiction About the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

• Live from Jerusalem: Exploring Israel and the Media with Matti Friedman

Watch:

• Should Diaspora Jews Have a Say in Israeli Affairs? 

Learn:

• Four Common Tough Questions on Israel

• 75 Years of Israel: How much do you know about the Jewish state?

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Matti Friedman:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Matti Friedman has joined us on this podcast multiple times. Last year, he gave us an essential lesson on how to tell fact from fiction about Israel, and when AJC held its global forum in Jerusalem in 2018, he joined us for our first live recording, so I could not pass through Jerusalem without looking him up, Especially after learning that the writer behind Shtisel is adapting Matti's latest book, "Who By Fire" about the late great Leonard Cohen's time on the front lines of the Yom Kippur War. He joins us now in a studio in the Talpiot neighborhood of Jerusalem. Matti, welcome to People of the Pod.

Matti Friedman:  

Thank you for having me.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I take it you're a fan of Leonard Cohen, or just as a journalist you find him fascinating?

Matti Friedman:  

No, of course, I'm a fan of Leonard Cohen. First of all, I'm Canadian. So if you are Canadian, you really have no choice. You have to be a Leonard Cohen fan, and certainly if you're a Canadian Jew. We grew up listening to Leonard Cohen. So absolutely, I'm a big admirer of the man and his music.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What are your favorite songs?

Matti Friedman:  

Probably my favorite Leonard Cohen song is called "If it Be Your Will." Just a prayer that came out on a Cohen album in the 80s. But I love all the Cohen you know top 10- Suzanne and So Long Marianne, Famous Blue Raincoat and Chelsea Hotel. It's a very long list.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I should clarify that your book is not a biography of Leonard Cohen. It's about just a few weeks of his life when he came in 1973, during the Yom Kippur War, and these few weeks were a real turning point in his life, also for Israel, but we can talk about that later. But I want to know, why is it important? Why do you think it's important for Leonard Cohen fans, for Jews, particularly Israelis, to know this story about him?

Matti Friedman:  

I think that those few weeks in the fall of 1973, when Cohen finds himself at the front of the Yom Kippur War, those weeks are really an incredible meeting of Israel and the diaspora, maybe one of the ultimate diaspora figures, Leonard Cohen, this kind of universal poet and creature of the village, and this product of a very specific moment in North American Jewish life, when Jews are really kind of bursting out of the ghetto and entering the mainstream. And we can think of names like Paul Simon and Bob Dylan, even Phil Ochs, and people like that. And Cohen is very much part of that. 

And he comes to Israel and meets, I guess the other main trend in Jewish history, in the second half of the 20th century, which is the State of Israel, and Israelis, who are not bursting into, you know, a universal culture in the United States, they're trying to create a very specific Jewish culture–in Hebrew, in this very kind of tortured scrap of the Middle East. 

And the meeting of those two sides, who have a very powerful connection to each other, but don't really understand each other. It's a very interesting meeting. And the fact that it happens at this moment of acute crisis, one of the darkest moments in Israel's history, which is the Yom Kippur War, that makes it even more powerful. 

So I think if we take that snapshot, from October 1973, we get something very interesting about Israel, and about the Jewish world and about this artist. And in some ways, I think those weeks really encapsulate much of Leonard Cohen's story. So it's not a biography, it doesn't trace his life from birth to death. But it gives us something very deep about the guy by looking at him at this very intense and kind of traumatic moment.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you also think it sheds some light on the relationship between diaspora Jews and Israel? And how has that relationship changed and evolved since the 1970s?

Matti Friedman:  

When Cohen embarks on this strange journey to the war, which, I mean, it's a long story, and I tell it in the book, but it starts on a Greek island or he's kind of holed up. He's in a crisis, and he's unhappy with his domestic life and he's unhappy with his creative life and he kind of needs to escape. So he gets on a ferry from the island and gets on an airplane from Athens and inserts himself into this war, by mistake, not really intending to do it. And he says in this manuscript that he writes about that time, which is unpublished until, until my own book, I published segments of it. 

He says, I'm going to my myth home. That's how he describes Israel. He uses this very interesting phrase myth home. And it's hard to understand exactly what he means. But I think many Jewish listeners will understand kind of almost automatically what that means. Israel is not necessarily your home. And it's possible that you've never even been there. But you have this sense that it is your mythical home or some alternate universe where you belong. And of course, that makes the relationship very fraught. It's a lot of baggage on a relationship with a country that is, after all, a foreign country. 

And Cohen lands in Israel and has a very powerful, but also very confusing time and leaves quite conflicted about it. And I think that is reflective, more generally of the experience of many Jews from the diaspora who come here with ideas about the country and then are forced to admit that those ideas have very little connection to reality. And it's one reason I think that I often meet Jews here from, you know, from North America, and they're not even fascinated by the country, but they're kind of thrown off by it, because it doesn't really function in the way they expect. It's a country in the Middle East. It's very different from Jewish life in North America. And as time goes on, those two things are increasingly disconnected from each other.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Yeah. Which is something that I think you say, Israelis say repeatedly, that lots of people have opinions about Israel and decisions that are made and how it's run. But they have no idea what life is like here, right? That's part of the disconnect. And the reason why there's so much tumult.

Matti Friedman:  

Yes, and runs in the other direction, too, of course. Israelis just have less and less idea of what animates Jews in the United States. So the idea that we're one people, and we should kind of automatically understand each other. That just doesn't work anymore. I think in the years after the Second World War, it might have worked better because people were more closely connected by family ties. So you'd have two brothers from Warsaw or whatever, and one would go to Rehovot, and one would go to Brooklyn, but they were brothers. And then in the next generation, you know, their children were cousins, and they kind of knew something about each other, but a few generations have gone by, and it's much more infrequent to find people who have Israeli cousins, or American cousins, you know, it might be second cousins or third cousins, but the familial connections have kind of frayed and because the communities are being formed by completely different sets of circumstances, it's much harder for Americans to understand Israelis and for Israelis to understand Americans. And we're really seeing that play out more and more in the communication or miscommunication between the two big Jewish communities here in the United States.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So this is my first trip to Israel. And many people told me that I would never be the same after this trip. Was that true for Leonard Cohen?

Matti Friedman:  

I think it was, I think it was a turning point in his life. Of course, I wrote a book about it. I would have to say that, even if it weren't true, but I happen to think that it is true. He comes here at a moment of a real kind of desperation, he had announced that he was retiring from music that year. So he had this string of hits, and he was a major star of the 60s and early 70s. And those really famous Cohen songs that I mentioned, most of them had already come out and he'd been playing at the biggest music festivals at the Isle of White, which was a bigger festival than Woodstock. And he was a big deal. And, and he just given up, he felt that he had hit a wall and he no longer had anything to say. And he was 39 years old. That's pretty old for a rock star. And he was in those days, of course, people are dying at 27.

So he kind of thought he was washed up. And he came to Israel. And he writes in this manuscript, this very strange manuscript that he wrote, and then shelved, that he thinks that Israel is a place where he might be able to be born again, or just saying, again, he writes both of those thoughts. And in a very weird way, it happens. 

So he's too sophisticated a character to tell us exactly how that happened, or to ever say that he went to Israel and was saved or changed in some way. Leonard Cohen would never give us that moment that of course, as a journalist I'm looking for but they won't give us all we can do is look at the fact that he had announced his retirement before the war, came home from this war very rattled, not at all waving the Israeli flag and singing the national anthem or anything like that, but he came back invigorated in some way. 

And a few months after that war, he releases one of his best albums, which is called "New Skin for the Old Ceremony." Which is a reference, of course, to circumcision, which is itself a kind of wink toward rebirth. And that album includes Chelsea Hotel and Lover Lover Lover and Who by Fire and he's back on the horse and he goes on to have this absolutely incredible career that lasts until he's 80 years old and beyond.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So let's talk about Lover Lover Lover, and the line of that song. You had interviewed a former soldier on the frontlines in the Yom Kippur War. He had heard Leonard Cohen sing, was very moved by that song, which was composed on an Israeli Air Force Base, I believe originally. And then the album comes out and he hears it again. And something is different. The soldier is not happy about that. Can you talk a little bit about how you confirmed that? 

Matti Friedman:  

Right, so I spent a lot of time trying to track down the soldiers who had seen Leonard Cohen during this very weird concert tour that he ends up giving on the Sinai front of the Yom Kippur War. And it's this series of concerts, these very small concerts, mostly for just small units of soldiers who are in the sand and suddenly Leonard Cohen shows up in a jeep and plays music for them. And it's kind of a hallucinatory scene. 

And one of the soldiers told me that he will never forget the song that Cohen sang, and it was on the far side of the Suez Canal. So the Israeli army having kind of fallen back in the first week and a half of the war has crossed the Suez Canal, in the great counter attack that changes the course of the war, and now they're fighting on Egyptian territory. And one night, on that, on the far side of the canal, he meets Leonard Cohen, it's just kind of sitting on a helmet in the sand playing guitar, and he sang a song that would later become famous, but no one knew it at the time, because it had just been written. As you said, it was written for an audience of Israeli pilots at an Air Force base a few weeks before, or a few days before. 

And the song's lyrics address the Israeli soldiers as brothers. That's what the soldier remembered. And he said, I'll never forget it. He called us his brothers. And that was a big deal for the Israelis, to hear an international star like Leonard Cohen, say,  I'm a member of this family, and you're my brothers. And that was a great memory. But there's no verse like that in the song Lover, Lover, Lover. And there's no reference at all that's explicit to Israeli soldiers. And the word brothers does not appear in the song.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

At least the one on the album, the song on the album.

Matti Friedman:

On the album, right. So that is the only one that was known at the time that I was writing the book. And then I kind of set it aside, I just figured that it was a strange memory that was, you know, mistaken or manufactured. And I didn't think much more about it. But I was going through Cohen's old notebooks and the Cohen archive in Los Angeles, which is where many of his documents are kept. And he had a notebook in his pocket throughout the war, and was writing down notes and writing down lyrics and writing on people's phone numbers. And in in the notebook, I found the first draft of  Lover, Lover, Lover, and this verse, which had somehow disappeared from the song and the verse is a really powerful expression of identification, not uncomplicated identification, but definitely sympathy for the Israelis who was traveling with, he was traveling with a group of Israeli musicians, he was wearing something that looked a lot like an Israeli uniform, he was asking people to call him by his Hebrew name, which was Eliezer Cohen. 

So he was definitely, he had kind of gone native. And the verse, the verse goes, 'I went down to the desert to help my brothers fight. I knew that they weren't wrong. I knew that they weren't right. But bones must stand up straight and walk and blood must move around. And men go making ugly lines across the holy ground.' 

It's quite a potent verse. And it definitely places Cohen on one side of the Yom Kippur War. And when he records the song, a few months later, that verse is gone. So he obviously made a different decision about how to locate himself in the experience. And ultimately, the experience of the war kind of disappears from the Cohen story. He doesn't talk about it. Later on, he very rarely makes any explicit reference to it. The Cohen biographies mention it in passing, but don't make a big deal of it. And I think that's in part because he  always played it down. 

And when that soldier Shlomi Groner, who I call the soldier, but he's going into his seventies, but you know, for me, he's a soldier. He heard that song when it came out on the radio, and he was waiting for that verse where Cohen called Israeli soldiers, his brothers and the verse was gone. And he never forgave Leonard Cohen for it, for erasing that expression of tribal solidarity. 

And in fact, the years after the war, 1976, Cohen is playing the song in Paris, you can actually find this on YouTube. And he introduces the song to a French audience by saying, he admits that he wrote the song in the war in Sinai, and he says, he wrote the song for the Egyptians, and the Israelis, in that order. So he was very careful about, you know, where he placed himself, and he was a universal poet. He couldn't be on one side of a war, you couldn't be limited to any particular war, he was trying to address the human soul. 

And he was aware of that contradiction, which I think is a very Jewish contradiction. Is our Judaism best expressed by tribal solidarity, or is it best expressed in some kind of universal message about the shared humanity of anyone who might be reading a Leonard Cohen poem? So that tension is very much present for him and it's present for many of us.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So he replaces the line though with watching the children, he goes down to watch the children fight.

Matti Friedman:  

So before he erases the whole verse, he starts fiddling with it. And we can actually see this in the notebook because we can see him crossing out words and adding words. So he has this very strong sentence that says, I went down to the desert to help my brothers fight, which suggests active participation in this war and, and then we see that he's erase that line held my brothers fight, and he's replaced it with, I went on to the desert to watch the children fight. 

So now he's not helping, and it's not his brothers, he's kind of a parent at the sandbox watching some other people play in the sand. So he's taken a step back, he's taken himself out of the picture. And ultimately, that whole verse goes into the memory hold, and it only surfaces. When I found it, and I had the amazing experience of sending it to the soldier who'd heard it and didn't quite remember the words, he just remembered the word brothers. And over the years, I think he thought maybe he was mistaken, he wasn't 100% sure that he was remembering correctly and I had the opportunity to say, I found the verse, you're not crazy, here's the verse. It was quite a moment for him.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Yeah, confirmation, validation. Certainly not an expression of solidarity anymore, but I read it as an expression of critique of war, right. Your government's sending sons and daughter's off to fight you know, that kind of critique, but it changes it when you know that he erased one sentiment and replaced it with another.

Matti Friedman:  

Right, even finding the Yom Kippur War in the song now is very complicated, although when you know where it was written, then the song makes a lot more sense. When you think a song called Lover Lover Lover would be a love song, but it's not really if you listen to the lyrics. 

He says, "The Spirit of the song may rise up true and free. May be a shield for you, a shield against the enemy". It's a weird lyric for a love song. But if you understand that he's writing for an audience of Israeli pilots are being absolutely shredded in the first week of the Yom Kippur War, it makes sense. The words start to make sense the kind of militaristic tone of the words and even the kind of rhythmic marching quality of the melody, it starts to make more sense, if we know where it was written, I think Cohen would probably deny.

Cohen never wanted to be pinned down by journalism, you know, he wasn't writing a song about the Yom Kippur War. And I don't think he'd like what I'm doing, which is trying to pin him down and tie him to specific historical circumstances. But, that's what I'm doing. And I think it's very interesting to try to locate his art in a specific set of circumstances, which are, the Yom Kippur war, this absolute dark moment for Israel, a Jewish artist who's very preoccupied with his own Judaism, and who grows up in this really kind of rich and deep Jewish tradition in Montreal, and then kind of escapes it, but can never quite escape it and doesn't really want to escape it, or does he want to escape it and, and then here he is, in this incredible Jewish moment with the Israeli Army in 1973. 

And we even have a picture of him standing next to general Ariel Sharon, who is maybe the other symbolic Jew of the 20th century, right? You have Leonard Cohen, who is this universal artists, this kind of, you know, man of culture and a kind of a dissolute poet and and you have this uniform general, this kind of Jewish warrior, this kind of reborn new Jew of the Zionist imagination, and we have a photograph of them standing next to each other in the desert. I mean, it's quite an amazing moment.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Yeah. I love that you use the word hallucinatory earlier to describe the soldier coming upon Leonard Cohen in the desert, because it reminded me that it was not Leonard Cohen's first tour of sorts in Israel. He had been in Israel the year before, 1972, gave a concert in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, very different shows. Can you speak to that?

Matti Friedman:  

So Cohen was here a year before the war. And what's amazing is that you can actually see the concerts because there was a documentary filmmaker with him named Tony Palmer. And there's a documentary that ultimately comes out very briefly, that is shelved because Cohen hates it, and then resurfaces a couple of decades later, it's called Bird on a Wire. And it's worth seeing. And you can see the concert in Tel Aviv. And then the concert in Jerusalem the next day, which are the end of this problematic European tour, which kind of goes awry, as far as Cohen is concerned. 

In Tel Aviv, they have to stop a concert in the middle because there's a riot in the audience and for kind of strange technical reason, which was that the arena in Tel Aviv had decided to keep the audience really far away from the stage and people tried to get close to Leonard Cohen and Cohen wanted them to come closer to the stage because they were absurdly far from the musicians and they tried to move closer but the security guards wouldn't let them and they start, you know, people start fighting, and Cohen's begging them to calm down. 

And you can see this in the, in the documentary and then ultimately he leaves the stage, he says, you know, it's just not I can't perform like this, and he and the whole band just walk off the stage, and you get the impression that this country is on the brink of total chaos, like it's a place that's out of control. And then the next day, he's in Jerusalem for the last concert of this tour. And the concert also goes awry. But this time, it's Cohen's fault. And he is onstage, and you can see that he can't focus, like he just can't put it together. And in the documentary, you can see that he took acid before the show. So it might have had something to do with that. But also, it's just the fact that he's in Jerusalem. And for him, that's a big deal. And he just can't treat it like a normal place. It's not a normal concert. So there's, there's so much riding on it, that it's too much for him, and he just stops playing in the middle of a concert. And he starts talking to the audience about the Kabbalah. And it's an amazing speech, it's totally off the cuff. 

It's not something that he prepared, but he starts to explain that, in the Kabbalistic tradition, in order for God to be seated on his throne, Adam and Eve need to face each other, or the man and the woman need to face each other in order for the divine presence to be enthroned. And he says, my male and female sides aren't facing each other, so I can't get off the ground. And it's a terrible thing to have happen in Jerusalem. That's what he says. And then he leaves, he says, I'm gonna give you your money back, and he leaves. And instead of rioting, which is what you'd expect them to do, or getting really angry, or leaving, the audience starts to sing, "Haveinu Shalom Alechem," that song from summer camp that everyone knows, I think they just assume that he would know it. 

And in the documentary, you see him in the dressing room trying to kind of get himself together. And hears the audience singing, a couple thousand young Israelis singing the song out in the auditorium, and he goes back out on stage and kind of just beams at that. He just kind of can't believe it, and just smiling out at them. They're entertaining him, but he's on the stage. And they're singing to him, and then the band comes back on. And they give this incredible show that ends with everyone crying. You see Cohen's crying and the band's crying and he says later that the only time that something like that had ever happened to him before was in Montreal when he was playing a show for an audience that included his family. So there was a lot going on for Cohen in Israel, it wasn't a normal place. It wasn't just a regular gig. And that's all present in his brain when he comes back the following year for the war.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Makes that weird decision to get on the ferry, and come to Israel make a little more sense. I had tickets to see Leonard Cohen in 2013. He was in Chicago, and Pope Benedict the 16th decided to resign. And as the religion reporter, I had to give up those tickets and go to Rome on assignment. And I really regret that because he died in 2016. I never got the chance to see him live. Did you ever get the chance to see him live? 

Matti Friedman:  

I wonder if we should add that to the long list of, you know, Jewish claims against Catholicism, but I guess we can let it slide. I never got to see him. And I regret it to this day, of course, when he came to Israel in 2009 for this great concert that ended up being his last concert here. I had twins who were barely a year old. And I was kind of dysfunctional and hadn't slept in a long time. And I just couldn't get my act together to go. And that's when I got the idea for this book for the first time. And I said, well, you know, just catch him the next time he comes. You know, the guy was in his late 70s. There wasn't gonna be a next time. So it was a real lapse of judgment, which I regret of course.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I do wonder if I should have gone to Rome for that unprecedented moment in history to cover that, kind wish I had been at the show. So you do think that the Jerusalem show played a role in him returning to Israel when it was under attack?

Matti Friedman:  

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, he had this very again, complicated, powerful, not entirely positive experience in Israel. And he'd also met a woman here. And that also became clear when I was researching the book that there was, there was a relationship that began when he was here in 1972, and continued. He had a few contacts here, and it wasn't a completely foreign place. And he had some memory of it and some memory of it being a very powerful experience. But when he came in '73, he wasn't coming to play. So he didn't come with his guitar. He didn't bring any instruments. He didn't come with anyone. He came by himself. So there is no band. There's no crew, there's no PR people. He understands that there's some kind of crisis facing the Jewish people and he needs to be here. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I interviewed Mishy Harman yesterday about the Declaration of Independence, the series that [the I`srael Story podcast] are doing, and he calls it one of Israel's last moments of consensus. We are at a very historic moment right now. How much did this kind of centrifugal force of the Yom Kippur War, where everybody was kind of scattered to different directions, very different ways of soul searching, very Cohen-esque. How much of that has to do with where Israel is now, 50 years later?

Matti Friedman:  

That's a great question. The Yom Kippur war is this moment of crisis that changes the country and the country is a different place after the Yom Kippur War. So until 73, it's that old Israel where the leadership is very clear. It's the labor Zionist leadership. It's the founders of the country, Ben Gurion and Golda Meir, and the people who kind of willed this country into existence against long odds and won this incredible victory in the 1967 War. And then it's all shattered by this catastrophe in 1973. And even though Israel wins the war and the end, it's a victory that feels a lot like a defeat, and 2600 soldiers are killed in three weeks in a country of barely 3 million people and many more wounded and the whole country is kind of shocked. And it takes a few years for things to play out. But basically, the old Israeli consensus is shattered. And within a few years within the war, the Likud wins an election victory for the first time. And it's a direct result of, of a loss of faith and leadership after the Yom Kippur War. That's 1977. 

And then you have all kinds of different voices that emerge in Israel. So you have, you know, you have Likud. You have the voice of Israelis, who came from the Arab world who didn't share the background of, you know, Eastern Europe and Yiddish and who had a different kind of Judaism and a different kind of Zionism and they begin to express themselves in a more forceful way and you have Israelis who are demanding peace now. You know, on the left, and you have a settlement movement, the religious settlement movement really kind of becomes empowered and emboldened after the Yom Kippur War after the labor Zionist leadership loses its confidence and that's when you really start seeing movements like Gush Emunim pop up in the West Bank with this messianic script and so, so the the fracturing of that that consensus really happens in wake of Yom Kippur war and you can kind of see it in in the music, which is an interesting way of looking at it because the music until 73 had really been this folk music that still maybe the only place that still sees it as Israeli music might be American Jewish summer camp, where it kind of retains its, its, its hold and yeah, that those great old songs that were sung around the campfire and the songs of early Israel and that was very much the music that dominated the airwaves.

After the Yom Kippur War, it's different, the singers start expressing themselves a lot less in the collective we and much more in using the word I and talking about their own soul and you hear a lot more about God after 73 than you did before. And the country really becomes a much more heterogeneous place and a much more difficult place, I think, to run and with that consensus, you're talking about the Declaration of Independence. And that series, by the way, Israel Story, which I highly recommend, it's a wonderful series about an incredible document, which we still should be proud of, and which we should pay much more attention to than we do. But when do we have consensus, when we're under incredible pressure from the outside. The Declaration of Independence is signed, you know, as we face the threat of invasion by fighter armies. 

So that's basically what it takes to get the Jews to sit down and agree with each other. And, you know, there are these years of crisis and poverty after the 48 war into the 60s. And that kind of keeps the consensus more or less in place, and then it fractures. And we're in a country where it's much easier to be many different things, you know, you can be ultra-Orthodox, and you can be Mizrachi, and you can be gay, and you can be all kinds of things that you couldn't really be here in the 60s. 

But at the same time, the consensus is so fractured, that we can barely, you know, form a coherent political system that works to solve the problems of the public. And we're really saying that in a very dramatic and disturbing way in the dysfunction, in the Knesset and in our political system, which is, you know, has become so extreme. 

The political system is simply incapable of a constructive role in the society and has moved from solving the problems of the society to creating problems for a society that probably doesn't have that many problems. And it's all a reflection of this kind of fracturing of the consensus and this disagreement on what it means to be Israeli what the meaning of the state is, once you don't have those labor Zionists saying, you know, we are a part of a global proletarian revolution, and the kibbutz is at the center of our national ethos. Okay, we don't have that. But then what is this place? And if you grab 10 Israelis on the street outside the studio, they'll give you 10 different answers. And increasingly, the answers are, are at odds with each other, and Israelis are at odds with each other. And the government instead of trying to ease those divisions, is exacerbating them for political gain. So you're right, this is a very important and I think, very dark moment for the society.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And do you trace it back to that kind of individualistic approach that Cohen brought with him, and that the war, not that he introduced it to Israel, and it's all his fault, that the war, and its very dark outcome, dark victory, if you will, produced?

Matti Friedman:  

I don't want to be too deterministic about it. But definitely, that is the moment of fracture. The old labor Zionist leadership would have faded anyway. And just looking at the world, that kind of ethos, and that ideology is kind of gone everywhere, not just in Israel. But definitely the moment that does it here is that war, and we're very much in post-1973 Israel. 

Which in some ways is good, again, a more pluralistic society is good. And I'm happy that many identities that were kind of in the basement before '73 are out of the basement. But we have not managed to find a replacement for that old unifying ideology. And we're really feeling it right now.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Thank you so much, Matti, for joining us.

Matti Friedman:  

Thank you very, very much. That was great.

Join us for an exclusive conversation featuring three women leading transformation in the Middle East. Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin, Chairperson of the Israeli Export Institute, speaks to promoting Israeli exports and fostering economic growth; Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh, a Senior Envoy at The Jewish Agency for Israel, discusses fostering connections and supporting Jewish communities in the region; and Aviva Steinberger, Director of Innovation Diplomacy at Start-Up Nation Central, touches on harnessing innovation and technology for positive change. Led by AJC Abu Dhabi Program Director Reva Gorelick onstage at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, this conversation offers valuable insights into the transformative efforts shaping the Middle East today.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

___

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Reva Gorelick, Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin, Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh, Aviva Steinberger

___

Show Notes:

Listen:

• People of the Pod: 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered?': Exploring Israel's Declaration of Independence with People of the Pod and Israel Story

Watch:

• AJC Global Forum: Women Driving Change in the Middle East - video of the full session, as heard on this week's episode.

• More sessions from AJC Global Forum 2023

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin, Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh, Aviva Steinberger:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

The role women play in pursuing peace and progress in the Middle East is too often overlooked. But my colleague AJC Abu Dhabi Program Director Reva Gorelick is not one to leave such an important stone unturned. At AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv she led a fascinating conversation on "Women Driving Change in the Middle East." This week's podcast brings you a portion of that conversation with Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin, Chairperson of the Israeli Export Institute, Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh, a Senior Envoy at The Jewish Agency for Israel, and Aviva Steinberger, the Director of Innovation Diplomacy at Start-Up Nation Central. We open with Reva posing a question to Gadeer.

Reva Gorelick:

Gadeer, in your career, you have broken barriers in many ways. And I'm going to read because there's so many ways that I want to make sure that I get them right, as the first non Jewish broadcast anchorwoman here, both in Hebrew and Arabic, and then as the first Druze woman to serve as a member of Knesset, what have you learned about the appetite for change and for representation of historically marginalized communities in this part of the world specifically? And how did these trends track with what you're now seeing as an emissary for the Jewish Agency in America?

Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh:  

Good morning. So long story short, so much, I learned so much. I'm still learning, I'm still growing, I'm still listening. And I'm still amazed to see the social impact of simply our existence, simply of being or living or achieving or talking to each other. And look at us today, this morning. The first of us, each one of us, based in different countries, speaking different language, different religion, different fields, but we are social agents. And this is what my father told me, always, as a child, you are a social agent. You are not privileged to live your life in a way that you are consuming reality, you have to shape reality. 

And I did social activism even without knowing that I'm doing social activism. I broadcasted my first TV show when I was 12 years old. I believe in people, I believe that we have the ability to change reality. And then being in those positions as first, as firs, as first, when you are how I always introduce myself by saying hello, my name is Gadeer. I am an Israeli but not a Jew, I am an Arab but not a Muslim, I am a minority within the Arab minority, my mother tongue is Arabic, married religion is Druze. I'm a proud Israeli citizen..good luck. So having such a unique identity, and being the first in those positions is something that a stranger would not understand the complexity and the beauty that you have. And so I started to write my book because I'm afraid that we cannot have, we don't have enough time to talk about it. 

But I learned so much the most important thing that I learned is engage, engage, engage. It doesn't matter where it doesn't matter how it doesn't matter with whom. Engage as a social agent and activate your role in shaping public opinion. I had so many stories in my life, Reva, in which I was amazed and telling myself, Yes, we can. Yes, we can. Being the only woman in so many rooms, I'm sure that Ayelet and Aviva also understand what does that mean to be the only woman. Nobody asked you if you want to represent women, you are a representative of women. So talk, represent, share their stories. And two weeks ago, we were in DC and we initiated some of the prestigious forum that you will hear about, and we were 18 successful leaders in Washington DC, but guess what? I was the only woman. And I told them guys, I got used to this in my villages in the Druze community, we are still a conservative community. Okay, but in DC in the 21st century, I am the only woman? Hey, wake up. Then I understood that okay, we did so much, we achieved so much in the last decades, last century, but we are not there yet. You know, like reminding ourselves in some countries we have no ability to vote, we have no ability to even, no right to be elected. Okay, we did, we promoted, we leverage our skills we went, we learned, we achieved. But even now today, we are not there. We don't have yet absolute gender equality. 

Look at the numbers. In our current government, there are zero CEOs of ministries, five of 33 ministers are women. 25% of MK members of parliament today are women. We are talking about 30 from 120. So the up-bottom policy is also, you know, reflecting the atmosphere. There are huge ramifications of who we are, who is working with me, who are my colleagues. So we are trying to lead. We are the head, the CEO, the founder, but we need to work much more hard to achieve. And this is our role. 

So the most important advice, in my opinion, that I can share here is lead. Don't wait for opportunity, take the opportunity, and I am really trying to target here, women, especially young women, excuse me, men, you have your exclusive club, you take care of each other. I believe that behind every woman, there is no man. There is a circle of women to support her, to give her the chances, to help her, to leverage her skills, to teach her. And I believe that it is our role as leaders at first, to empower women to be there for each other and to take the number much higher. 

Because so many researchers found that and it's proven that our ability to read reality is much better than men. We see the macro perspective, the empathy, the way of dealing things, the multitask. And all those things affect the atmosphere in our companies, in our organizations, in politics, in the Knesset. So do it, engage and lead and don't wait for the opportunity. Take the opportunity and lead.

Reva Gorelick:

Thank you. I want to just follow up on one point that you brought up, Ayelet, I'm gonna go off script a little bit and just ask, you brought up a question about representation in government. And we're not there in most parts of the world, we're not nearly anywhere where we where we need to be and where we should be at this point. When we're looking at government representation and gender parity in government, what should we be striving for? And how do you see that gender parity and representation as a barometer for social change and policy change?

Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin:

I think it is a little bit frustrating to admit the truth. We felt that we were going forward, and then we were kind of pulled back. And it's really up to us. I've got to say something, and I've got to be very frank about it. Politics is a shitty business. I worked with Yitzchak Rabin when I was 20 years old. And at 25, I had so much political power, I couldn't believe it. And I still didn't run for the Knesset, because of the men around me, you know, for them. I was 25 years old. Why should I run for the Knesset? Nowadays, it's much more reasonable to do so, to make such a crazy decision. 

But then I decided to go to the Knesset only after I already had three kids, a full career, a lawyer and board member and owner of a company, everything, that's when I decided, okay, now I'm gonna bring everything into the home, you know, and run to the Knesset. And it's a very, very difficult and non rewarding life. Even today, I tell people, I'm a politician, because I don't want people to think that politics is such a bad thing, you know, it's so important to understand, Gadeer, forgive me, she's also a politician, you know, this is not a bad thing. 

You know, this is, you know, the kind of my IP, you know, that's what I bring to the, to the table, my ability to speak to people and my ability to solve problems to, to do a lot of things, you know, that probably people with, with different skills, other people will be scientists and doctors, I really, really wanted to be an MD, but that's for another session. But what we need to do is make sure that from the very, very start at kindergarten, I'm not educating my daughter, I'm educating her brothers. Her brothers need to know that she can be Prime Minister, if she would like. That she could do anything that she could want. That's the idea. Because we used to say, once upon a time for socialization, okay, so let's take care of the girls. Nuh-uh. We need to take care of all of them, of both genders, because this is what we need to do. 

Because till today, and especially in a very, very complex society, like Israel, where we have both very, very strong liberalism, alongside in spite of you know, in spite of the situation in the Knesset, still very, very strong Bible values that, you know, the values that we share, and conservatism, that is not only Jewish, okay. I mean, there's no, no doubt there is, you know, is there a strong draft of conservatism from the Jewish part, but also we know well from the non Jewish parts. So the idea is, you know, people like Gadeer, I never heard you speak about what your father told you, that you should change reality. But that's exactly it. It's up to us to shape reality and shaping reality, from Facebook, from Meta, that Sheryl Sandberg used to say, speak at the table. You know, when you go through board minutes, you see that the women don't speak as much as the men. It's not only Okay, so we got to the table, but do we speak there? 

And I noticed once you know that Shabbat dinners, my daughter doesn't speak as much as her brothers. She's kind of reluctant. Maybe she'll make a mistake. Maybe she'll make it out and I'll correct her. God forbid I'm a terrible mom in these things. You know, I never have patience. So I say to the boys, I say, now you sush. And I give her the front seat. And this is so important to do. And up until, you know, we'll realize that and act on it, we will unfortunately, especially in such a divided society, like our own, we'll stay in the same situation. 

As long as people for instance, in primary parties, people still vote for one woman, you know this like, that's like the one token woman that we vote for. Now, on the other side, on the left wing, it's not as much as that. But again, we don't see as many women. I think in Yesh Atid actually, Yair [Lapid] made a huge effort. Also, Benny [Gantz] made a huge effort to bring more women on board. But these are different. You know, these are different kinds of parties. By the way, if you ask me, what's better for women? Nowadays, primaries or non primaries, you'd be surprised to hear: non primaries. Non primaries. Primaries are not necessarily the best way to bring women to the front seat.

Reva Gorelick:

Thank you for sharing that. And bringing that into the conversation of you, I want to come back to you. Aviva, you hold the role of Director of Innovation Diplomacy. It's not a phrase that I had heard much before we started having these conversations. And I'd love for other people to hear about it some more. From your experience in Israel's tech and startup world. Can you talk to us about the cascading effects of empowering women to be agents for change in their respective fields?

Aviva Steinberger:

Yeah, so innovation diplomacy is a made up term. And you know, if you think about science, diplomacy, or economic diplomacy, that's generally diplomacy that's meant to further goals around science and economics. And in this case, you're looking at focusing on innovation to further diplomacy. The idea is leveraging what's coming out of Israel in the tech sector, leveraging this brand that we have as the startup nation, to build ties. So with the signing of the Abraham Accords, really created the opportunity for normalization, as we know, and countries in the region are investing a lot of money, billions of dollars, to create their own innovation ecosystems. 

And they're looking at their neighbor, Israel, and Israel as a now welcome citizen of the region that everybody can play with. And saying, How can we learn from the Israel journey, Israel's journey over the last 30 years going from a resource economy where our main export was oranges, to a knowledge based economy where our main export is anyone know? Tech. Yep. 

So digital, we call it digital oranges, right? The drones flying over the citrus fields and around the world, measuring the health of the fruit in the trees, etc. So really this journey and what went into building an ecosystem? What did the government do 30 years ago that enabled and incentivized foreign investment, where's the academia, where is tech transfer happening both at the university level, also in hospital levels, where what is the role of incubators and accelerators and investors. So looking at the whole ecosystem, sharing that knowledge and using that, as what I call a frictionless tool to engage with our neighbors in the region, because if you're talking about some of our shared challenges, I mentioned before, water security, and energy security and the impacts of extreme weather. Those issues don't know geographic boundaries. 

And so we are all dealing, especially in the region, one of the most vulnerable to climate change, for example. By the way, in America, climate change is very politicized. In the region, it is not at all because if you don't pay attention to the impacts of climate change in the region, your people aren't going to have clean water, they're not going to have food, they're not going to have energy, electricity. And so these are not political issues. These are what I call frictionless issues, that we can sit around the table and say, we must collaborate in order to find solutions. 

So innovation diplomacy is really about focusing on the role that innovation plays to create these relationships. As it relates to women. I think women play, can play and do play a unique role into driving this forward. First of all, you know, we spoke about it a little bit and Gadeer, you mentioned this idea of women being social change agents. There's something I mean, I don't think this is unique and exclusive to women, but it's definitely emphasized in women and when we walk into a room, as professionals, we are wearing a lot of hats. 

You might not see them, but I think everybody on this stage is wearing a number of hats. Some of us are politicians, we're leaders in our communities, in our societies, in our companies, on boards. But we're also daughters and sisters potentially and mothers, some of us and friends, and maybe the head of a kindergarten parent group that has to worry about making sure everybody has the cake for the end of the year party. I mean, these are all things happening at once in our heads. And that's just my own. I'm sorry. I don't mean to project.

Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh:  

The Sarah Jessica Parker cloud.

Aviva Steinberger:

Yeah, exactly. And I think the invitation that we're putting out to women and the engagements that we have is, bring all of those hats with you into a room. I mean, sometimes they're not necessarily relevant but the engagement at the personal level, at the business level, at the values level, sharing ideas for the vision of what the future, the region could look like. That's really where the connection I mean, I witnessed and sorry, I'm going to share I witnessed and embrace between these two friends who hadn't seen each other in a long time. And I overheard Gadeer say this is the hug of two strong women. That's something unique to women. 

And, I think if we create the space where that happens, those ties, then feed into trusting networks, where I know that my friend, who I just met last month and spent two and a half days with, who is running a business in Nigeria, and is looking for funding. And I'm connecting with a funder in the UAE who's looking for women-led ag-tech businesses, I'm suddenly making that connection and putting them in touch. And you create these networks of trust that create opportunity. And so it's an opportunity that leads to more women sitting around the table making decisions on investments, more women sitting around the table making decisions around what kind of solutions to pursue, and where these cross regional, cross border synergies could happen. 

And that I believe in my heart of hearts, is where we're charting a path to a new future for the region. I don't think it's naive to say, we are on the cusp of a new dynamic in the Middle East. Because of these opportunities, and because of these opportunities to engage. I will also say just in terms of numbers-wise. Globally, women representation we spoke about in politics, but women representation, as CEOs and founders of companies, is an abysmal 8% cap, no matter where you go, you're gonna hit that 8-9% number. When I first heard this, I immediately started checking our stats in Israel, because I was like, that's, that can't be in Israel. Israel is just hovering around 10. And we are a global leader. 

This is an improvement. And you're talking about after seeing efforts. And if you look at the numbers coming out of the universities, women are very well represented today at the academic level and computer sciences. You're talking about graduates that are hovering around 50%, if not more at some university. So you think, okay, you know, we're charting a path for a better future. But that doesn't translate. The reality doesn't translate into seeing more women, founding companies, leading companies. And that is a gap that needs to be addressed. And the jury's still out on what's the silver bullet to get there. But I think it is in creating opportunities. 

And Ayelet also spoke about this, this mentoring, I think, in particular in the region. I mean, from the United States, I'm American, living in Israel, for the last 25 years, I have not had a challenge finding women to model, women to reach out to and say, you know, I can track this path. And this is where I can see myself being as a future leader. But women in the region don't necessarily have that network, and creating these networks where you can access a vision for what future female leadership looks like and see it and get there and not be the only woman in the room, that has tremendous power. And that's really what we're driving to see in the business and tech community.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for our live recording from Tel Aviv with one of Israel's top podcasts, Israel Story. Host Mishy Harman and I joined the grandson of Moshe Kol, one of the 37 signers of Israel's Declaration of Independence as part of Israel Story's latest series, "Signed, Sealed, Delivered?" Don't miss it.

Two of the Jewish world's leading podcasts, People of the Pod and Israel Story, are teaming up to bring you inside the making of 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered?' – the latest series from Israel Story that explores the lives of the signatories of Israel's Declaration of Independence and their descendants.

Recorded live at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, the episode features Mishy Harman, host of Israel Story, and Eran Peleg, the grandson of signatory Moshe Kol (born Moshe Kolodny). Tune in to hear Eran's lasting memories of his grandfather, the strong Zionist values he instilled in his family, and why the Declaration of Independence matters 75 years later.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

___

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Mishy Harman and Eran Peleg

• (42:35) Yehudit Kol Inbar and Mishy Harman

 ___

Show Notes:

Listen:

• People of the Pod: Israeli President Isaac Herzog in Conversation with AJC CEO Ted Deutch

• People of the Pod: Two Ukrainian Refugees Reflect on Escaping War, and Life in Israel– Live from AJC Global Forum 2023

• Israel Story: Episode 89 - Moshe Kol 

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Mishy Harman and Eran Peleg:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

As many of our listeners know, People of the Pod recorded not just one but two episodes in front of a live audience at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv. We also took the show on the road and did a few more interviews in Tel Aviv and in Jerusalem. You'll hear those episodes in the months to come. This week, we bring you our second live show in partnership with one of Israel's most popular podcasts: Israel Story. 

Welcome to the second live podcast recording here at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv.

So on Monday, you heard two very different perspectives from two women who fled war torn Ukraine and landed here in Israel, their new home. Today, you will hear the story of Israeli Moshe Kol, born Moshe Kolodny, in 1911, in what is now Belarus. He was one of the 37 founders of the State of Israel, who signed Israel's Declaration of Independence. We're bringing you this live show together with another podcast that you might enjoy, Israel Story. Think This American Life except it's This Israeli Life. Broadcasting in English since 2014, each episode introduces us to the wide array of characters who make up this diverse and dynamic democratic nation. 

In honor of Israel's 75th year of independence, the team at Israel Story set out to find the closest living relative of all 37, who signed Megilat Ha'atzmaut. In March, they began rolling out what I would call audio portraits of those 37 people. Portraits about who they met, what they could tell us about the 37 people who signed that founding document. They call the series, 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered?' And since March, we have met eight of Israel's founding mothers and fathers. Over the next several months we will meet the other 29 including Moshe Kol, through the lens of his daughter. Today, you get a special preview through the lens of his grandson. With me to talk about 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered?' is the host of Israel Story, Mishy Harman, and the grandson of Moshe Kol, Eran Peleg. 

Mishy, Eran, welcome to People of the Pod, live in Tel Aviv.  So Mishy, I will start with you. The title is not 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered,' it's 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered?' What's with the question mark?

Mishy Harman:  

Well, first of all, that's a good question. I mean, it's always difficult to adjust with your intonation to indicate a question mark. But I think that this is a real question. When we began this series, it was actually before the last elections which took place in November, and before this unprecedented wave of democratic, cry for democratic values in this country in light of the government's judicial reform. And we set out to ask, there is this founding document, its status, its legal status is unclear. It's the best way I think, to think of it is, it's some sort of moral compass for our country. And, you know, interestingly, the only action item that actually exists within the Declaration of Independence is to formalize the Constitution, which of course, never happened. So we want to say, to ask the question of what this document actually is in Israeli society, whether we live up to the promise of the words and the ideas that were described within it, whether we haven't. In which ways we have or we haven't, and we wanted to do this through the prism. I'm sure every citizen of Israel has something to say about this and we wanted to do it through the prism of the descendants of the people who signed this document who you know with, with strike of their pen birthed, this country. Actually Moshe Kol call was in Jerusalem at the, on the day of the declaration. There were 11 out of members from Moetzet Ha'am who were who were stuck in Jerusalem, that was besieged and didn't participate in the, in the ceremony, which was here in Tel Aviv. So I think your grandfather signed something like a month later, during the first ceasefire, the different members of Moetzet Ha'am were brought to Tel Aviv by plane actually, to sign. But we wanted to ask, well, here we have this group of people. And it's an interesting group, because the first thing to say about it is that there are no non Jews who signed Megillat Ha'atzmaut, and that's, I think, a very important thing to keep in mind. But when you look at the group of these 37 signatories, it's a little bit like a pointillist painting. So when you look from afar, it looks like a pretty monolithic group of Polish and Ukrainian and Russian Labor Party operatives. But when you come closer, you actually see that there was a dazzling diversity among the signatories.

There were ultra-orthodox Jews, and there were atheists, and there were revisionists. And there were communists. And there were people who were born in the middle of the 19th century, and there were people like Moshe Kol, who was the second youngest signatory who was born in 1911, I think. And they represented very different ideologies. And we want to see if a generation and a half or two afterwards whether that diversity had expanded, or shrunken. And to what extent these people who are closest to the ones who imagines the state, how they think about the place we live in today.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So 25 signed in Independence Hall, just a little ways from here, actually, here in Tel Aviv, 11, we're in Jerusalem under siege, including your grandfather, two women. Hm. But there was a lot of diversity in the group. That said, I know that they–oh, one in America, I forgot about one in America. They organized it alphabetically. When they signed it, though, even though they signed it at different times?

Mishy Harman:  

With the exception of David Ben-Gurion, who signed first. Everyone else signed alphabetically, and they left little spaces for them. Some of them signed terribly. Like, even though it was the founding document of the state, they couldn't sign on the right line. And actually right underneath Ben-Gurion is the signature of Daniel Auster who was the mayor of Jerusalem. His surname is Auster, which begins with an aleph. So he was the first to sign. And he recalled how Ben-Gurion berated him because his signature was just like some sort of scribble and Ben-Gurion said, don't you understand the importance, the historical importance of the document you're signing. I think your grandfather's signature actually is sort of legible, right? 

Eran Peleg:  

Yeah, you can read it.

Mishy Harman:  

I don't know if you sort of, when you were a boy, when you went up to the Declaration of Independence and sort of pointed to your grandfather's signature with pride or something. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

One of the women you interviewed said that her father or grandfather, I don't recall, but she remembers practicing and practicing the signature beforehand. It was an exciting, it was such an exciting moment. So going back to the organization, how did you organize the episodes? And how did you decide the sequence of how you would release the episodes?

Mishy Harman:  

So we decided not to follow the order in which they appear on the scroll. We did start with David Ben-Gurion. An episode in which his grandson who was really his, the closest person, I would say to him in the family, including his own children, talked about Ben-Gurion. And interestingly, Yariv Ben-Eliezer, Ben-Gurion's grandson, has quite radical views about Israel today. And he thinks of Israel as an apartheid state and says that his grandfather would be very, very upset, and that the whole dream sort of went down the drain. 

So it was important to us in the next episode to present a pretty different view. So the next episode was the son of Zerach Warhaftig, who was one of the leaders of the Religious Zionist movement. And is a sort of mainstream right winger today. We do try to take into account, you know, gender. So even though there were only two female signatories, we obviously tried to interview as many women as we could who are descendants. Some sort of political variation, we also do try to have episodes have a theme, so whether it's economy or socialism, or tourism or you know, Yemenite Jewelry, or women's rights. So it's not just about the, about the signatory himself or herself, but also sort of about the things that were most important to that person.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I tried to as we were, as we were planning this and planning this episode, I tried my hand at tracking someone down from Israeli history and tracking down descendants. And I told your producer that it just made me even more impressed by the work that went into this project, because it was damn near impossible to find who I was looking for. Tell us how you tracked everyone down? Or are there some really good stories about how you connected the dots and landed the right, right person.

Mishy Harman:  

So all of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence are dead. The last one, who was the only one who was younger than your grandfather, Meir Vilner, died about 20 years ago. 14 of the 37 have children who are still alive. In fact, your grandfather, you were just telling me that all of his three daughters are still alive. So that was quite straightforward to find the children. When you start getting into grandchildren and great grandchildren, it becomes quite messy, there are 1000s of descendants. There were only three ultra orthodox Haredi signatories, but they have many, many descendants. And there becomes an interesting question of who you choose, right? Because depending on who you choose, you can tell a very, very different story. And we always tried to prefer people who knew their ancestor, and had firsthand experiences with them. But also to try and maybe we'll get into this a little bit later, but to try to demonstrate a variety of opinions today, too. So it is an interesting fact that the vast, and maybe maybe you'll talk about this, but it is an interesting fact that the vast majority of the descendants of the signatories of the declaration are in what you might call today, the sort of center and center left camp in in Israel, who are concerned about assaults on Israeli democracy. And in fact, the Declaration of Independence has, in recent months, become a rallying cry for the demonstrations. Suddenly the Declaration of Independence, you can't you can't escape it. It's everywhere. The municipality of Tel Aviv, hunger, massive replica, on the building. In demonstrations. There's sort of resigning of the Declaration of Independence, it's really, it's really become an icon, basically. And it was important for us to also show that there are descendants who think otherwise. And so for example, in episodes that haven't yet come out, their descendants who wonder why we even talk about Israel as a Jewish and democratic state, they say democracy is an important concept. It's some sort of Hellenistic fossil. It's not a Jewish value. We don't think that that should even be something that we aspire to.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Interesting. Interesting. Eran, how did you get the call that Israel Story was putting this together? Do you recall that day?

Eran Peleg:  

The truth is, I don't remember exactly. Because I've had numerous conversations with them. I think it was probably towards the end of last year at some point. And again, as Mishy said, it was before kind of all these events happened here in Israel. Very happy because I thought, you know, it's, as you say, now it's like the declaration is everywhere. Yeah, people talk about it all of a sudden people, you know, it's, we see it everywhere. But for many years, I mean, hasn't been much discussed, actually. So I was kind of saying, Ah, yeah, it was the 75th anniversary, the State of Israel is coming up. Some chance that we'll get something about it, but that wasn't expecting much. And I was quite happy, to have the opportunity to talk about the declaration, my grandfather, obviously.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Tell us a little bit about your own upbringing and what Moshe Kol was like as a grandfather.

Eran Peleg:  

Well, I was just telling Mishy, I mean, quite a small family. My grandfather Moshe or as we called him, Saba Misha, grandfather Misha. You know, he had three daughters. Elisa, Sari, who's my mother and Yehudit, who is the younger one. And altogether, you know, a bunch of grandchildren, seven grandchildren. But that's, that's pretty much it. And so we're a very close family. Every Friday night, for example, we would all gather at my grandparents house and have Shabbat dinner there that was like, you know, you had to be there was no discussion about it or negotiation. So even like, my friends always know that if we want to go out on Friday nights, always after dinner at Saba Misha and my grandmother Keta's house. So we spent a lot of time together. At the point when I was growing up already, my grandfather was obviously getting less involved with state affairs. 

When I was seven years old, he kind of retired essentially, in 1977. So I had the opportunity to spend time with him actually, both here and also they took me abroad on a couple of trips with them. So it was very interesting. He was a very kind man, very interesting man. 

I thought he was very smart. The Zionist project was kind of his life mission, if you like. So he was always talking in some way about it. He was always involved even after he retired he was involved in various different projects. Some of them had to do with coexistence within Israel, between Arabs and Jews, Druze, he was very involved with the Druze community, actually, he made good friends there. So even after his retirement, he continued to be active. And so I had the great privilege of kind of knowing him until I was 19 years old when he passed away. And really learned a lot from him.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

When did you learn that he had signed the Declaration of Independence?

Eran Peleg:  

I don't remember exactly, frankly. And this is one of the interesting things is that I don't remember much discussion at home about the Declaration of Independence. And I think my mother and aunt as well, I don't think, I think they'll probably agree with that even at an earlier stage. And it's quite interesting that he never made a big deal about it, definitely. And I think that in a way, he, although obviously, in hindsight, it was, and maybe at the time, it was a big event, but to him it was I think, and look at here, I'm kind of interpreting, this is my perspective on it. I think to him, it was one necessary and important, obviously, but you know, one necessary step in the big project, and the big project was, you know, establishing and building the Jewish state, the state of Israel. But I don't think if you asked him probably what was the highlight of kind of what was the most important thing you did in your life? I'm not sure if he would have said signing the Declaration of Independence. For example, I think—

Mishy Harman:  

He would have said bringing over 100,000 kids from the Diaspora.

Eran Peleg:  

Exactly yeah, so he was head of youth Aliyah for 18 years after the Holocaust and after the establishment of the State of Israel. To him, I think that was his kind of big, the big thing he you know, he accomplished more than anything else, and he was even later a minister, a cabinet minister, and so he did you know, many other things, but I think that was probably to him, the highlight of his career, Zionist, you know, and the declaration was kind of, you know, one step, kind of  a necessary step, but just, you know, one step along the way.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So why was he invited to sign that day?

Eran Peleg:  

So, and maybe Mishy, who's more of a historian can, perhaps, can you shed more light on this? But what I know is that, you know, the signatories were invited, it was based on kind of a, it was a party basis, or there were different movements, as Mishy mentioned, within, you know, Zionism or wasn't specific Zionism, because it really, it was supposed to represent the people who were living here actually ex the non Jews, right? 

Mishy Harman:  

Though interestingly, there probably would have been non Jews who would have agreed to have been part of this effort, I mean, your grandfather was involved in, in the cause of Christian Arabs from the North, who were, who were removed from their villages, Iqrit and Biram and stuff like that. Those kinds of people were actually allies of the Zionist movement in those days. And it's, it's possible, although Druze leaders-

Eran Peleg:  

It's possible, although, I mean, it's difficult, I think, for us sitting here now to know, because we have to remember this was like, it was a very tense time and, you know, we just had the War of Independence, kind of breaking out and all that. So it's difficult to say, I think. So he was representative of one of the movements, one of the factions within the Zionist movement, he was part of the, what they called, at the time, the General Zionists, Tzionim Haklaliym. And I think he was one of six representatives, I think of the General Zionists. And already at the time, he was a prominent leader within, you know, the kind of centrist Zionism. He was very early on in his life, he was already head of the, what was called the Noar Hatzioni, the movement, the global leader of the Noar Hatzioni. From there, so he kind of knew, he attended several of the Zionist congressional,l the conferences along the years, he was already a member of the executive committee of the Jewish Agency at that point. So he already had a certain position or statue within the kind of Zionist Movement. And as one of the leaders of the General Zionist, he was invited to participate in Moetzet Ha'am, which were the signatories of the declaration.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You said, I'm sorry, the first thing you said, he was the global leader of, and I didn't quite hear what you said.

Eran Peleg:  

The Noar Hatzioni movement.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

What is that? 

Eran Peleg:  

It was a youth movement. One of the, at time it still exists, actually. Interestingly, less so in Israel, actually. But in some countries in South America, I know it still exists. Today it's quite small, then it was a decent youth movement. That's actually how we met my grandmother. Because my grandmother was involved in the Noar Hatzioni in Belgium in Brussels. She was one of the heads of the Noar Hatzioni there, and and he has kind of part of his job as the Global Head, whatever of the movement, he was traveling and went to see all these different, all these different places. And that's how he ended up in Brussels where he met my grandmother.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You mentioned earlier that some of the descendants had evolved, drifted away from their ancestors, ideologies, political perspectives or philosophies. I'm curious, what your team found was it was did that account for most of the interviews that you did? Or a minority? I mean, did you find that in most of the interviews, the philosophies were kind of embedded in the family DNA?

Mishy Harman:  

It's interesting. Most people are quite similar to their fathers, grandfathers, uncles, mothers, and so on, so forth. But, and, of course, I mean, the important thing to remember is that we're talking in a completely different worlds now, right? If you think about Israeli society today, and you think about our chances of ever agreeing on a single document or a single vision of this state, that's you have to be crazy, basically, to think that that's possible. 

I mean, we live in such a fragmented and fractured society today, that getting a group that is in some way representative of the country to agree on what this country actually is, what this project that we call Israel, really is, today seems almost unimaginable. And I think, honestly, that it was pretty unimaginable at the time too. I think that they had other things going for them that in the background that allowed them to reach this moment of agreement. Which, you know, there were, as Eran just said, that we were in the middle of a war and it was, seemed like an existential war, right. We were gonna live or die. This all came together very, very quickly. You know, people understood that this was this opportunity, the British Mandate was about to end, there was going to be a power vacuum, the Zionist movement had an opportunity to declare statehood, which was something that, you know, in the Jewish psyche, had been a dream for 2000 years, 1900 years. 

And they weren't going to, there was some sense of sort of, I would say, communal responsibility, which, you know, there's this word in Hebrew that is difficult to translate, really, which is Mamlachtiut, it's really some sort of sense of, of being part of a larger state collective, that that wasn't going to allow them even if they disagreed with a specific phrasing or a specific idea to be the one saying, No, I'm going to I'm going to be the sole naysayer in this otherwise historic opportunity. And that's what got a lot of people on board, right. I mean, otherwise, how, and I know, they're all these stories about sort of vague phrasings whether they refer to God or don't refer to God or whether they can be interpreted in other ways, and so on and so forth. Today, we're a much more blunt society today. People would want things to be said very, very clearly. And we just unfortunately, and then I'd be interested to hear what you think. But I don't think that as a collective we share any clear understanding of what we can agree on. At least it doesn't seem that way today.

Eran Peleg:  

It's definitely, I agree. But I still remain optimistic, maybe it's my nature. But I do think that, you know, we've seen, you know, the huge amount we've achieved here in such a short period of time. And I do think that, you know, in some ways the values and political views are more clear now than they were back then. As you say, because of everything that was going on at the time, and they, and they were really occupied with kind of let's build this state more than anything else. You know, they put a lot of other things aside, frankly, it's not that they didn't have views about the economy about, you know, they had views about other other things about education, economy, it's just that they said, let's put this aside for now. And let's focus on the main project or the main mission. 

And they hope to get to the other stuff. Well, they actually promised to put together a constitution, which I guess, but the truth is, it was, frankly, with historical perspective, I think it was very difficult because they were actually set a date. I think. They said that until the, you know, the declaration was signed in May. And they said by October 1st, something like that, I think it's a very short period of time after they already want to have a constitution. And I think that probably wasn't realistic. 

Also because there was a war going on. And they were occupied with, you know, just existence, or survival. But also, because, you know, views were not, you know, really clear on many different issues, and they didn't have the opportunity to discuss them really yet.

United States, for example, putting together a constitution, the Constitution came really only I think, like more than 150 years after people landed, with the Mayflower. So there was a long time where they were already living together. And also then, there was a very serious job around putting together the American Constitution here, they, they were trying to put it together a middle of a war and just wasn't realistic. 

Mishy Harman:  

I think that this is particularly interesting for American listeners, because 75 years is a long time, but it's also almost no time at all. And what we feel lucky about with this project is that we're able to still touch these people, who, before they sort of drift into the realm of becoming historical figures in in books and research papers and stuff like that, and we can, we can talk to two sons and daughters, who remember these people as real as real people. And I think, you know, that's unimaginable, obviously, in the American context. And we tend to, we tend to attribute so much importance to phrasings and to wordings, of these kinds of declarations of, and we forget that at the end of the day, these are people who are writing writing these words within within specific historical context and bringing themselves and you know, Moshe Kol, for example, is signing, signing his name on on this scroll of independence. You know, a few years, four years, I don't know, after, after his parents and sister are murdered in the Holocaust, and that was the story of many of the signatories. And as it was saying, it was in the middle of the war and 1% of the population was killed in this war. I mean, they're writing these words, both without sort of knowing what we know today that 75 years hence, Israel is going to be around and Israel is going to be this thriving country with a cantankerous democracy.

It was, I think, in many ways, sort of a prayer or a wish, of what, of what this place could be. Many of them came from, you know, socialist backgrounds or from small villages and stuff like that, and suddenly found themselves here in this radically different environment than anything that they had known previously. And they were trying to imagine, well, what can we imagine a just society being?

And another interesting thing is that, sort of patriotic symbols like the flag and like the Declaration of Independence, which for years had been essentially owned by the right in this country have in the last year.

Eran Peleg:  

Less so the Declaration.

Mishy Harman: 

The declaration was a little more in the right. But have been completely appropriated by the protest movement, right? I mean, if you go here to Kaplan on Saturday night, which I strongly recommend everyone to do, whether you agree with the protests, or not just because it's a really, it's an incredible, incredible sight for anyone who cares about democracy, to see what these protests are like. You'll see basically a sea of flags, of Israeli flag. So that's, for me, that's a fascinating development. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

But doesn't it belong to both? I mean–

Eran Peleg:  

I mean, it definitely does. But, you know, the flag was, you know, is always perceived as a bit kind of nationalistic kind of, has this kind of flavor to it. But yeah, but you're right, it obviously belongs to both.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

They're just embracing it in different ways. 

Mishy Harman:  

One question that I would have to you about who things belong to is whether, sorry, I don't know if you– is whether being the grandson of one of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence, makes you feel different about your own ownership of this place? Whether it sort of casts a shadow of responsibility. 

Eran Peleg:  

I don't think I'm in a position of privilege or entitlement different from anyone else. I happen to be his grand, yeah, grand grandson. But, but what I think I do have, which maybe some other people don't, I do have, I think, a good sense of history, at least, kind of understanding where we've come from, you know, etc. And I think that's something that sometimes I see missing with other people, maybe that gives me a slightly different perspective on things.

So, for example, I see, you know, because we're the generation that was already born into the state of Israel. For us, it was like a given that, right? Self-evident, it's given. And I see especially with people who, like us, some people. It does make me angry when some people might say, I don't like what's going on, I'm just gonna go elsewhere. And to me, like, that makes me angry. But I don't think it makes me angry. Because I'm the son of Moshe Kol, I think it makes me angry, because at least I have an understanding of, you know, what's been put into this project already. 

And the efforts that have been made, and obviously, you know, people have given their lives as well, I mean, soldiers, for us to be where we are today as well. So, just kind of thinking that, Oh, you know, Israel will always be there for us, even if we go elsewhere, then we decide to come back, right. If we want, we can always come back. But no, that's not the case. Israel wasn't always here. 

I mean, you have to understand that we have a very, very special situation or position where we have the State of Israel, it's such a valuable thing. We can't just give it up, you know, just like that, okay. And you can't just take it for granted that we'll be here or that it's here, that we'll be here when you decide one day to come back from wherever you're going. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Maybe you don't feel that Israel belongs to you. But do you belong to Israel? 

Eran Peleg:  

Definitely. Yeah. It's definitely the case. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you ever, and I actually, I address this question to both of you. Wouldn't it be great if we could make plans. But if you had complete control over the universe, and your future, do you foresee ever leaving Israel?

Mishy Harman:  

Eran?

Eran Peleg:  

Again, it's very difficult to know what the future holds. But I see Israel as my home, I've actually had the opportunity to go abroad and come back. And part of the decision to come back was because this is my home. And my home also consists of the fact that my family's here, obviously. So it's a family, family reasons as well. But also, definitely, also Zionism played a role in my decision. I've lived 12 years outside of Israel, but my assumption was always that I'm there for a limited period of time, and I'm going to come back at some point. And that's actually what happened. And so, to me, Israel is where it's place for me. 

Mishy Harman:  

So I don't totally know what the word Zionism really means. Today, and something I think about a lot. My grandparents, who were of the same generation of Eran's grandparents, and also very active in the Zionist movement and in building the state. So not quite the blue-bloodedness of signing the Declaration, but they met in the early 30s. They were both students, they were both British, and they met because my grandfather, who was later on Israel's ambassador to the US for many, many years and the president of the Hebrew University, he was the he was the head of the student of design a student union at Oxford, and they met at a debate in which he debated my grandmother who was the head of the anti Zionist Student Union at the London School of Economics and she was an anti Zionist not because she had any particular beef with the Zionist movement but because she was an internationalist and she didn't believe as many others in the in the years between the wars, but leave she did believed in the concept of nation states and, of course, then spent the remainder of her life in the service of this particular nation state. But she was a tremendous presence in my life, she lived to be almost 100 and lived across the street from us. 

So I'll just share with you very quickly, one of the sort of formative memories of my life is that in 2006, she was already a very elderly woman in her mid 90s. She, we were and not totally with it all the time. At that point, we were watching television together and it was the Second Lebanon War. And she sort of perked up out of nowhere. And she said, Look what a strange thing we're talking about, there are hills to the north of here, that have vegetation, and have wildlife, and have flowers. And we've drawn a line in the middle of those hills. And we call one side of that line, Israel and the other side of that line Lebanon. And there are people living on both sides of that line. And what the TV is saying is that when Moti Cohen's life is destructed, or he's injured, because a Katyusha missile fell on his building, or something, we need to be deeply, deeply sad. And Ahmad Salman''s life is destructed because the Israeli Air Force bombed his village or something, no one's saying that we need to be happy, but we can basically be kind of indifferent. 

And she said, I don't know Moti Cohen. And I don't know Ahmad Salaman, but I'm equally saddened by the hurt that both of them are feeling. And that was that statement that stayed with me and stays with me, till today. 

So my connection to this place, I would say, is less from an idealistic point of Zionism, in sort of the classic sense of Jewish self determination. And more from the fact that I was born here, and I grew up here. And the park in which I played soccer, growing up still exists, and the streets, in which I, you know, walked hand in hand with my first girlfriend still exist, and my family are here, and my friends are here. And I like the food that I am accustomed to eating my entire life. And in some fundamental way, this is my home. So, you know, Madison, Wisconsin, or London are not my home in the same way. So that's what makes me want to be here and in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence, try to make our country live up to the lofty and beautiful ideals that that set out to achieve.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

That's beautiful, both of you. Both beautiful answers. Before we go, I do want to talk about, you've mentioned that a couple times, maybe the absence of God and democracy, those words from the declaration, and I'm just curious if you could both share your thoughts on: does that matter? And is it mattering today? If those words were embedded in the document, would anything be different today, possibly?

Mishy Harman:  

I think the absence of the word God was very intentional. And there's a lot of historical documentation about that. And I think the absence of the word democracy was less intentional in that. I mean, I don't want to bore you with a lot of technicalities. But democracy did appear in previous drafts of of the Declaration of Independence, and was ultimately taken out but not because I think that anyone had any sense that they wanted to be less…yeah, the the intent of Israel being a democracy, I think it's very clearly stated that Israel will come into existence based on the guidelines of the United Nations and the Partition Plan that called for the creation two democratic entities here. 

I think the Declaration of Independence talks about equality and about freedom of religion and, and in all the main tenets of democracy. So, I think that the Declaration of Independence does, as a document does appeal to a wide variety of people even today. I think that you know, it would be more difficult Today to write a founding document, that in the current makeup of Israeli society that doesn't refer to God and doesn't refer more clearly to the divine.

Eran Peleg:  

But there is some implicit- God is implicity present. I think there's a-

Mishy Harman:  

Tzur yisrael (rock of Israel).

Eran Peleg:  

Exactly, right. 

Mishy Harman:  

Which was sort of a very famous kind of pie style compromise, of saying things and not saying them at the same time.

Mishy Harman:  

And maybe as the last thing to say, which opens up a whole other conversation with you, if you maybe want to invite us again, to the podcast, we can discuss, is that, you know, the Declaration of Independence set in place, a notion which I think to most signatories did not seem like a contradictory notion of a Jewish and democratic state. And I think we're grappling till this day with whether those terms are contradictory whether a democracy can be a Jewish state, whether a Jewish state can be a democracy, I think all of them signed the Declaration thinking that this was a possible outcome. And I don't think that they thought that these terms would come to clash in the ways that they have. 

And I think till today, we're dealing with that legacy of this sort of impossibly simple and yet impossibly difficult coupling of terms, which we're now living in a moment in which we're trying to understand whether the signatories were right, whether this is a possibility.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Mishy, I hope you don't mind me asking you a personal question to close us out. And that is, I know you lost your father shortly before the debut of this series. It is dedicated in his memory. And you just shared a story about his mother, I believe that was your paternal grandmother. I'm curious as your team was having all of these conversations, you and your team were having these conversations with children and grandchildren, about the people they love their legacies, did that shape any of the conversations you had with your father in his final days, because you were working on it kind of simultaneously.

Mishy Harman:  

Sure. My father would have loved this series very much because it represented his Israel. It's also Eran's Israel, which is an optimistic Israel, which sees the good in people and the potential and the dream of this project that we began here. I think he would have been very interested, he knew many of these characters who we're talking about. I think he would have also been saddened to hear that a lot of them are dismayed by where things have gone. And I think he was as well. He was the greatest Zionist that I could imagine. And that he really believed. Zionism is a sort of catchphrase in which you can insert almost anything that you want into it. But I think his most fundamental belief, which he attributed to the heart of Zionism was a belief and the quality and a belief that people are people and the belief in education, and the belief in the spirit of the Jewish people. And in this really miraculous entity that we've created that allows us to ask these fundamental, difficult questions about our past. And for me, it's very, very meaningful to be able to dedicate this series to his memory.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Thank you so much to both of you for joining us. Thank you for the series. I encourage everyone here to listen to episodes of-

Mishy Harman:  

And the next episode that's coming out on Monday is about Moshe Kol. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Oh, perfect timing. Wonderful. And thank you both for joining us. 

Mishy Harman:  

Thank you.

Eran Peleg:

Thank you very much.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Thank you, audience.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

To listen to Israel Story's special series on the Declaration of Independence or any other regular episode, you can subscribe to Israel Story wherever you get your podcasts. Just don't forget to also subscribe to People of the Pod and our award-winning series, The Forgotten Exodus. To learn more about Moshe Kol, here's a sneak peek of Israel Story's interview with  his daughter, Yehudit Kol Inbar, the former director of the Museums Division of Yad Vashem in Jerusalem.

Excerpt from Israel Story - Episode 89 - Moshe Kol: 

Yehudit Kol Inbar:

He was eating grapefruit and he was crying, because for him it represented, 'wow, we are in Israel and we have a grapefruit that we ourself grew it.' He was very proud and happy with the feeling that they're building a place for the Jewish people.

Mishy Harman:

That's Yehudit Kol Inbar, the daughter of Moshe Kolodny, who - for nineteen years - headed the Jewish Agency's Youth Immigration Division, and was responsible for bringing more than 100,000 unaccompanied minors to Israel from eighty-five different countries. Despite being among the founders of at least seven kibbutzim and five youth villages, and later on holding senior cabinet posts, he considered that immigration effort to be his greatest public achievement. It was, he once said, a project that had no equivalent in the annals of human history.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

To listen to the rest of the episode, head to the link in our show notes. Our thanks once again to host Mishy Harman and the staff at Israel Story for sharing these incredible stories with us at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv. 

What do you do when you're an Israeli comedian set to perform in Paris on the very day the world learns the fate of the Bibas family?

Yohay Sponder faced that moment in February 2025—and chose to take the stage. Wearing an orange tie in their honor, he brought laughter to a grieving crowd. Since October 7th, he has used comedy to carry pain, affirm his identity, and connect through resilience.

Hear how his Jewish identity shapes his work, how his comedy has evolved since the Hamas attacks, and what he says to those who try to silence him. Recorded live at AJC Global Forum 2025.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• The Forgotten Exodus: Untold stories of Jews who left or were driven from Arab nations and Iran

• People of the Pod: 

• Latest Episodes: 

• From Broadway to Jewish Advocacy: Jonah Platt on Identity, Antisemitism, and Israel

• Sexual Violence as a Weapon of War: The Dinah Project's Quest to Hold Hamas Accountable

• Journalist Matti Friedman Exposes Media Bias Against Israel

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Transcript of the Interview:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Israeli stand up comedian Yohay Sponder: first gained popularity for his funny Monday shows in Tel Aviv, which attracted a following on YouTube. A few years ago, Sponder made the decision to perform Israeli comedy in English to reach a wider audience and a wider audience it has reached. He has hundreds of thousands of followers on social media, and in May, launched the North American leg of his international tour in Baltimore. 

Sponder is with us now on the sidelines of AJC Global Forum 2025. Sponder, welcome to People of the Pod. 

Yohay Sponder:  

Thank you so much for this eulogy.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I'm curious how you found your way to stand up comedy and tell us a little bit about your upbringing in general. 

Yohay Sponder:  

Doing comedy, I always been fascinated about the laughing reaction of humans. You know, it's fascinating, if you think about it, if you have the ability to improve the frequency in the room. As a kid, I was really intrigued by that. So you saying few things, and people go, haha. It's like designing a vibe. 

So as a kid, I was attracted to that. So as a kid, you watch video cassettes, back in the day, I would watch all of the comedy stuff. I had all of them cassettes. I was very, very affected by it, impersonations, imitating them, doing jokes of my own, and always around that. 

And in my show, I'm talking about comedy. I have a bit about comedy in my show that I'm saying that I was, I wasn't just the class clown in my school. I was the jokes technician. If you had a broken joke or a joke that didn't work, you would come to me. I would fix it for you, bring it back. Not using it as my own resume. I would bring it back, when it's fixed.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

That's great. So you helped others clown around as well.

Yohay Sponder:  

Yeah, I was a clown teacher. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Were you raised in a secular home, a particularly Jewish home?

Yohay Sponder:  

I was raised in a, let's say secular but Jewish, celebrated holidays, family Friday night family dinners. But we weren't like super Shabbat keepers. I think I became closer now, when, after my father passed away, I for the Kaddish and I put tefillin a little bit. And the war, you know, this war, activated a lot of Jews to the to this kind of level.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Right. You're sitting across from me, and you're wearing a gigantic Star of David. On your chest.

Yohay Sponder:  

Yeah, you see what she did, you see what she did? You're sitting across and you're wearing a gigantic Star of David. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Have you always worn that or did you put it on after October 7?

Yohay Sponder:  

No, it's after the war kicked in. I don't know. I had a vision that that's what we should do right now. We need to be out there and show other Jews that we're there. That's what I felt. And I imagine that, I need a big star of David. And the day I thought about it, I saw that. So there was a sign for me, like I had this vision, that I need a big star of David here. And less than 24 hours, that one find me. I didn't look for it. It came across my eyes.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Which I imagine you'll be wearing your Magen David on tour. The tour itself is called Self Loving Jew. What is the meaning of that title?

Yohay Sponder:  

So, basically, you know, this is so awesome, because before October 7, you could argue of other opinion. You could hear some people saying, Yeah, but maybe we should this. After October 7 that we know so all these monsters that came and attack us, the self hating Jews that they're doing now, super horrific, disgusting job of mocking us. And I find it really bad, and I think so I'm I'm bringing the other side. I'm just bringing the you know, it doesn't mean that I hate someone that is not Jewish. I'm just, I want to inspire other people to be to love themselves, even if they're not Jewish. But as Jews, we have to love us, because we're probably the last ones to love us, and if we won't love us, that's that's over for us. 

And people, people saying that it's very harsh to compare the self hating Jews of now to the Kapos and and I'm saying, yes, it's it's not fair for the Kapos, because they didn't have a choice. You guys have a choice, and you did it just for likes and for other people from other cultures to like you. I really, I really believe. 

I really deeply believe I'm coming from there. I'm coming from the war. I really believe that the people that don't, they don't give us the credit, people that not supporting Israel, they're uneducated. I really believe in that they don't know enough. They might be not bad people, but they might be stupid people. 

Self hating Jews, like whatever Dave Smith, all these guys that try to be liked by, you know, others, and they they just out of their own idiocy. Listen, you don't know anything about what's going on. As Douglas Murray told them, ou've been there. You saw those things that you're talking about when you're saying, Israel, starving the Gazans you're never seeing the the trucks that going every day. You're You're an idiot. You're just an idiot. You listen to other people, and you listen to other lies. 

And they will say, No, I just want peaceful. We all want peace. Just the fact that you're Jewish, it means that you want peace. We say Shalom when we see each other, when we say Shabbat Shalom. The holiest day of the week. We say telech bshalom, tachzor bshalom. Go in peace, come back in peace. You don't want peace more than I want. We all want peace, but we're willing to fight for peace because we have to make sure that no innocent people from both sides, by the way, will get hurt. 

So yeah, it's really bad and shitty situation, war, but you blame us without checking it. So anyway, I don't want it to make it too much political. It's not political, by the way, Self Loving Jew. It's about loving yourself and being, you know, being in touch with what's going on right now. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So there is so much misinformation out there, you launched your you started doing English language comedy to reach a wider audience. Now you're doing an English language international tour. Do you have a message that you want to get out to the wider world to especially this region where there is so much misinformation and misunderstanding?

Yohay Sponder:  

Yeah, the message is that, we're living in a time that it's very hard to agree on something, and I really miss the days that we all agree that the world is round. You know, a little long ago, a few years ago. But yeah, the message is that you do your research and come to laugh with us. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

It's an important message that gets forgotten. October 7, and its aftermath were so horrific. Did you press pause on your comedy career for a little while? At what point did you find it acceptable to make people laugh again in the aftermath?

Yohay Sponder:  

No, it took time. It took time. It took a day.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

One day. Okay.

Yohay Sponder:

Because right after that, after the attack, they start to arrange people to go to volunteer in squads and families that got evacuated from their house and soldiers and hospitals, people got wounded. So I've been around. I did that. That was my duty service. And also I did regular reserves duty, stuff like that. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And what did you do on reserve duty? 

Yohay Sponder:

I was in Ramat Gan patrol. So not super serious, but I did what I did. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And at what point did you go back to the stage and so more standup?

Yohay Sponder:  

So I'm running the show Funny Monday, I think roughly a month after October 7, we get. Maybe two months, yeah, something like around that. January, maybe, I remember, like a little bit after that, the show went back and we did stand up in English.

People really followed what's going on in Israel. No matter what you do from the country, they follow that. And we had strong they were saying, Wait, Shahar Hassan, my co-host, very good friend. Really funny man, serious comedian, like one of A-list, Top list. And people follow, people watching what we have to say. That was the main purpose of Funny Monday, when we launched it in 2016 nine years ago. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Did it shift? When you restarted it after October 7, was it different? How so? 

Yohay Sponder:  

Yeah. We always talked about current events, what's going on in the world? It's the international perspective of not just news, but Israel perspective and stuff like that. So in that case, you're talking about Iran's attack. What the news with Biden, Benjamin Netanyahu? Whatever is happening politically, or current events and yeah, people were more attached to the screen those days. And also in comedy. It's a great form of art to deliver, you know, your point of view, or your, yeah, your what you want to say. So it's, it was great to do that, and till this very day, that's what we do. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So you really though, have to read the room, right? I mean, different audiences, I imagine, receive your comedy in different ways, especially in different regions of the world. So I'm curious if there are differences in the kind of humor that resonates with an Israeli audience, and the kind of humor that resonates with an American audience or a European audience.

Yohay Sponder:  

So that's the thing, why I love my country so much, because you can just stand up in any form you want. You can go as dark as you want in Israel or as political as you want. We have some issues right now with people having fight with each other, of political issues, and we have a lot of demonstrations and stuff. So there's that. But beside that, you can get away with a lot of what people say here in America, woke culture, politically correct. In Israel, we don't have it. You don't stand up like in the 80s. If someone looks gay in the audience, you say, Hey, you look gay man. That's very gay. You're fat. You these, you're old, you're very brown. We just say that, and that's fine. No one canceled. We don't even know what it means to cancel someone. No one get canceled in Israel.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Holocaust humor, is that acceptable in Israel?

Yohay Sponder:

Yeah, it's not just it's acceptable. For example, from my wife's point of view, she was shocked when people came back to say, wow, mitlachot poh shoah—the shower was like, it's the Holocaust. Holocaust shower. They sang that. There's something that you say in the army and it's kind of fine. No one like, hey, how can you compare this? Because the water was cold, so they were called. So they say, but in the Holocaust, no water at all, was gas. 

And also, when my wife told me, Don't honk like this, it's ghetto. You know, it's American thing to say, Don't honk. It's ghetto. It's like, I'm pretty sure that in Auschwitz, they didn't have cars. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

She's talking about a different kind of gheto. 

Yohay Sponder:

And she said, like, you can't do these jokes. Yeah, you can't do this. She's like, she's from American perspective, you can't do these jokes. It's horrible. It's like, that's jokes we do here all the time. And in Israel, you use Nazi sometimes, like, as a, not only as a bad thing. It's like, accuracy. You say, like, Nazis coming on time. I need a Nazi plumber, not . . . someone that is a good commander. When I'm having the perspective of my wife and American people, I understand how horrible that is. 

However, some Holocaust survivors testify that they had humor in the camps. They used humor, even dark humor, in the camps, and it helped them raise their frequency and raise their morality and maybe survive, maybe humor saved them. So when you saying too soon, sometimes it's, yeah, it's too soon for someone but it's okay for someone else. 

I see black humor as spicy food. We all have our own scale for it. You can, you can eat spicy like a crazy mental person, and I can just taste it. And, you know, it's too harsh for me, and vice versa.

So I did jokes about October 7, in November 7, and horrible ones, and it was also with the Holocaust. That's how horrible that was. So maybe it's too soon for the Holocaust. It's too soon for October 7. I said, the people that compare compared October 7 to the Holocaust. And I'm saying at least in the Holocaust, no one kidnapped Holocaust survivors. It's not even a funny, like, haha, funny. It's like, oh shit, yeah, yeah, that's the joke. It's not a joke of a punch line. It's a punch in your belly. Yeah.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What have been some of the most memorable moments from your shows, from your live shows, and I'm talking good and bad, have there been really positive responses and have there been really ugly?

Yohay Sponder:  

So let's just take this afternoon in Paris that I'm sitting in my hotel and Instagram and social media exploding from what's going on with the releasing of the Bibas babies. That we're getting back coffins, and I'm getting, I don't know, hundreds of messages from people that like we don't know if we're coming to the show. Two shows sold out in a huge theater in Paris. I'm not there every day. That's the show. That's it. One day since October 7, and no one knows when I'm going to come again. And my heart is broken, and people tell me we want to come but we can't. What do you think we should do? 

Now, I responded to all of them, my wife and I responded to all of them, you do what you feel. I totally support your feelings. And the show is going to happen, and we get together tonight, and it's going to be a group hug, but if you can't make it, that's fine. I went on stage with an orange tie that I bought, and we talked it through. Arthur is the comedian and producer of those shows. He opened the show, he talked about the situation, and we did the shows. Now, that's the beauty of it, that's, that's the genome of the Jewish people. That's so in us to . . . . what we talked earlier about the Holocaust survivors that testify that they want to laugh, they want to have a good time. They don't want to let these terrorists decide for us what we gonna feel. Yeah, we feel bad. Yes, you're the worst people on the planet. I wish God will wipe you out, or IDF as fast as possible. You're a disgusting dirt of…but for us, for what we can do right now, we're gonna, we're gonna do our best to raise our morality and frequency.

And I did the shows. I'm not gonna lie to you, I was very sad. But you know, the people that, that's what Bob Marley said after, he got shot, you know, and he did the show anyway, and he said, the people that want us to feel bad, they don't take a day off. So how could I? That's a very nice thing to say.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You had a show at City Winery where some people in the audience came with, maybe with intentions to protest, or at least they expected to disagree with you, and they met up with you after the show. And what happened?

Yohay Sponder:  

After my show, one of the presidents of the BDS organizations. She approached me and she said, we came to hassle the show. We came to ruin your show. So like, why you didn't do it? And she said we were waiting for the right moment, but the more the show went on, the more we liked what you said. You talk a lot about peace, you talk a lot about mutual values and how to solve problems, and you talk about the nice things of the Jewish tradition and the Jewish religion. We couldn't ruin that. We have conscience and we also liked you. 

They liked the show. They wanted to ruin it, but they loved it, and they laughed. I told her, that's exactly what I do. In my stand up show, when you see that bit, it's with the whole structure of what happened there and how I almost made peace with these guys, but it didn't work out. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Maybe you need to do your stand up routine in Gaza and that would solve everything.

Yohay Sponder:  

I checked that. They don't have comedy clubs there. I said that when I hosted the show, we have an Arab comedian, a friend of ours. You know, people like they don't know that, but Arab-Israelis, are Palestinians. To their definition, to the Palestinians definition, it's the same thing, but they don't identify as Palestinians. It's like we're Muslims, we're Arabs. Anyway, they're with us. They're like siblings to us. 

So when I introduced him, I also made fun of the situation. I said, When is going to be in Palestine? When it's going to be the Jewish comedian goes on stage like you going here and stuff like that, and there is no comedy clubs in Ramallah or in Gaza, but Inshallah, when there will I go and I do a spot.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

How many of your shows, as you've been traveling around, have actually been canceled or moved or postponed. I read something about your Amsterdam show, for example, was moved to an undisclosed location because of security concerns. Has that happened elsewhere?

Yohay Sponder:  

Australia. And they tried to cancel my show in Brussels, didn't make it. They tried to cancel my show in Paris. They couldn't make it, but demonstrated outside. And every time that thing happened, I got a lot of press covers and interviews, and people get insane. And like, oh, we have to support and come to see the show. So every time it happens, I doubling or sometimes tripling the amount of people. Which is so weird, you know, because they're always the people they hate us. Always go, oh, Jews, money and you guys this, and you made me make more money. I didn't want to make that much money. 

I want to make third of the amount of money. But because of your protesting. Your hate, that's how bad you are of what you do. And how amazing we are what we do. You know, I didn't want to make that much money, so now I hire them, the protesters. So they work for me. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

They do your marketing, generate publicity. So none of the shows have been successfully cancelled?

Yohay Sponder:  

No, the Amsterdam show canceled. The Boom Chicago, which also surprising. Your name is Boom Chicago. What's your security concerns. That's gonna be a boom. Let it be. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

But I thought it was moved. 

Yohay Sponder: 

We moved that like because they a week before the show, they said we're not doing the show. And was like, guys, let me respond. Let me say something. No, no. Police said that. We called the police. We have their numbers, you know, we call them. They say, No, we didn't talk to them. And then they wrote, we can help you find a Jewish venue. So I told him, we can help you find a Jewish lawyer.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So there was no show?

Yohay Sponder: 

Not in the Boom Chicago.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Got it.

Yohay Sponder: 

And I'll never go there.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And not in Amsterdam? 

Yohay Sponder: 

No, it was in Amsterville. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Got it, okay. Amsterville, is that next to Amsterdam?

Yohay Sponder:  

Turns out, yeah, they didn't know that too. Was was a very nice theater, I think, three times' size of the Boom Chicago, and we had a great time. And I'll go there again. And it's not just the Boom Chicago, when we try to rebook it, a lot of other venues, more than 30 venues, didn't want to have me there. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So is there anything else that I haven't asked you that you really want to share with our audience?

Yohay Sponder:  

Yeah. I mean, listen, I'm not sure that the audience is going to be 100% Jewish, right? So the message is going to be split for both. So I'll talk to them. So if you guys are Jews, I wanted to know that everything's going to be fine, and we got this, and raise your head, and we're good. We're going to be good. This is probably the last one. It's the last one. I think Messiah is coming, right? We're going to be fine, all right? 

And if you're a non Jewish person watching it, you're an ally. So I want to thank you. We don't take it for granted. It's very important that you're around.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Sponder, thank you. 

Yohay Sponder:  

Thank you so much. 

Since his election by the Knesset in 2021, Israeli President Isaac Herzog has used his position as a platform to try to mend the social fabric of the Jewish state. At AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, Herzog sat down with AJC CEO Ted Deutch to discuss key issues, including judicial reform, Israel-Diaspora relations, and the importance of the Abraham Accords. Herzog ends his discussion with an important message for today's youth. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

____

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Isaac Herzog

____

Show Notes:

Watch:

• Israeli President Isaac Herzog and AJC CEO Ted Deutch's Conversation at AJC Global Forum 2023

• To watch more videos from AJC Global Forum 2023, go to http://www.ajc.org/GlobalForumNews2023

Read: 

• 3 Key Takeaways From Israeli President Isaac Herzog's Conversation with AJC CEO Ted Deutch
• What to Know About Israel's Judicial Reforms

Listen:

• Two Ukrainian Refugees Reflect on Escaping War, and Life in Israel– Live from AJC Global Forum 2023

Join us next year: 

• Attend Global Forum 2024 in Washington D.C. Register today to secure $350 off your ticket

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of interview with Isaac Herzog:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Last week at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, AJC CEO Ted Deutch sat down with Israeli President Isaac Herzog for a conversation about a range of issues, including the controversial judicial reforms, the connection between Israel and the diaspora, and the vital relationship between the US and Israel. For listeners who didn't have a chance to see it live, we are replaying that conversation this week.

Ted Deutch:

As an organization that is committed to advocating for the Jewish people in its entirety, all around the world, your advocacy, your commitment to diaspora Jewry to recognizing the importance of every Jew around the world, is an inspiration to us. And for us to have this opportunity. It, I'd like to start by asking the question in all of your efforts to engage the broadest cross-section of the Jewish world, from left to right, from secular to Orthodox, you've gone out of your way to be the President of Israel, who is really representing the people of Israel. Where does that come from? Is it just part of the role you see yourself playing? It's personal to you clearly, if you could just share with us. 

Isaac Herzog:

It is a passion. And, and I think it's also part and parcel of the role of the President, meaning the president is the head of state of the only Jewish nation, the nation-state of the Jewish people in the world. And as such, it's only natural that he will have such a role, but it also comes out of a deep passion of mine. As you know, my late father Chaim Herzog was also Israel's president was the sixth president. And I come from a family that serves the Jewish people for generations. Some of you have known my uncle Abba Eban, who was Israel's legendary foreign minister.

Some of you have known My other uncle Jacob Herzog, who was a huge diplomat, some of you have known my grandfather, Rabbi Isaac Halevi Herzog, who was Israel's chief rabbi and a huge Jewish leader, you know, my brother, Mike, who's the ambassador in Washington, I can go on and on if you want to. 

But truly, we believe in the Jewish people. We believe that the story of the Jewish people, I believe in the story of the Jewish people, my previous role, was chairman of the world's biggest Jewish organization, The Jewish Agency. And I'm adamantly passionate me and my family, but the story of the Jewish people and we are a small nation, of about 15 million plus Jews around the globe, in a sea of 8 billion human beings, we have a role to play, we have a role, we have a story, we have a role. And therefore we should protect and preserve the unity of our people amidst all of its differences. And that's why I've launched my initiative of Voice of the People - Kol Ha'am. Well, now right now, as of this week, we are holding labs all over the Jewish world to have discussions about how do we move on? How do we care for each other? And how do we identify the future leadership of the Jewish people? 

Ted Deutch:

Thank you, thank you for launching that effort. I just want to pause to marvel at the way that your family's history is just inextricably woven.

Isaac Herzog:

I haven't even told you half of it, but doesn't matter. I had one of my father's uncles was the head of the AFL CIO.

He was Sidney Hillman, really and FDR would say clear it with said so now you have to understand what Shabbat dinners means in our family. There's no way you can escape this stuff.

Ted Deutch:

As you're sitting, you're sitting here in a room full of people who Shabbos dinners. Well, while we don't have the same personal connections throughout, throughout the history of Israel, that you have our Shabbos dinners I am comfortable saying all of us are full of conversations about Israel, about the importance of Israel, about the role that Diaspora Jewry can play how we can ensure and strengthened ties between the Jewish people in America and around the world and Israel and I know that you're just launching this really important effort. And I'm not asking you to guess what the outcome will be. But I will ask right now even as you're starting this process, as we go back when we go back to America and we go back to our 25 regional offices and our offices around the world. What can we be doing to help strengthen the relationship between diaspora Jewry and the State of Israel? 

Isaac Herzog:

So you have a huge role to play. And I would say first that I believe that part of the problem is the lack of understanding of what Israel is all about. There's, there's a judgmental attitude in certain spheres on my American public life, in certain quarters that judges us according to certain skeleton, scale, sorry, that is not always realistic in terms of where we live in what we do. We are a small and nation which is truly challenged by a huge enemy, which works day in day out to undermine us to kill our citizens, employ, tell against us around us from all sides,

and rush to the bomb and spread anti semitism and hatred. And on the other hand, we are a nation that is extremely successful, successful, reaching incredible heights in so many incredible fields that, you know, we will discuss the internal issue and the judicial reform in a minute, I'm sure. But all I'm saying is that in some places, you know, we are judged wrongly by what we do and how strategic we are. And I think you have an immense role to play in telling the story of Israeli democracy, diversity, achievements, we can, of course, deal with the faults and mistakes like any nation, I've got news for you, all nations are challenged and simmering, and, and debating, especially in the modern era. And, and of course, they need to protect and preserve our only Jewish state in the world. 

Ted Deutch:

So we're here on a we're, we're here on a Sunday afternoon. Last night, again, there was there were massive protests around the country, democracy is really democracy in action. How, how should we be thinking about all of that? 

Isaac Herzog:

First of all, let's understand where we're at, because the talks under my auspices, and I gave huge attention to this process, and I find it serious and important. And I also take this tells the leaders that they bear huge responsibility as to the fate and outcome of these talks. And especially as to the effort that is needed in order to reach a wide agreement on the call issues which are so important. These are critical days. And I sincerely hope that the leaders and the elected officials will take the right decisions, because not only the people of Israel want a wide agreement, consensus on the core issues, without of course, hurting the basic rules of democracy and the independence of the judiciary. But more importantly, I also feel that in this room, the Jewish world demands us not to be torn apart, and want us to move forward with a dialogue.

Ted Deutch:

AJC from the moment you launch your effort to bring the parties together has been as supportive as we possibly can be. We agree that this is a moment that the diaspora as a whole has to recognize why we cannot afford to let it tear us apart. 

Isaac Herzog:

Absolutely. Look, the debate itself, on the core issue of the boundaries between the three arms of government is a legitimate debate that stems from a process of debating that has ensued 30 years ago, these are critical questions that come out when you don't have a constitution. How far can one arm of government supersede the other? That's all a very legitimate debate, the way it's done? What is unleashed, actually, perhaps it's good that it has come up now, as a public issue as a real in-depth discussion of where we are and where we are going to as a nation. I find it actually a potentially healthy process where we air out our differences and talk, talk to each other. And by the way at our home, the president's residence, both Michal and me and the entire team. We are hosting 1000s of Israelis every month while discussing these issues from all sides of Israeli multicultural society. And we have to face that reality and try our best to come to amicable solutions, which preserve our democracy, which protect our democracy, which preserve and protect the independence of our judiciary, which is a very noble arm of government and nonetheless find the right answers as to the boundaries between these arms of government, 

Ted Deutch:

And we wish you nothing but success in reaching that compromise. Finally, Mr. President, there are over 400 young participants here high school students, college students, young adults, as you as you prepare to exit our stage--

Isaac Herzog:

Do you want to say a word about the Abraham accords? Before you asked me about that? Oh, I would. Let's shift gears. I'm trying to go full of time now. I'm sorry. We'll take another few minutes. Great.

So I just want to put that down, let me know when it's okay. Well, oh, then I've got a lot to ask. No, no, not a lot. 

Ted Deutch:

But let me just ask this instead. Now, we just came from the UAE. And we heard over and over the story of your visit to the United Arab Emirates to advance Israel's place in the world. And the attacks that were launched against the UAE and the expectation as a visiting as a visiting president, that those attacks would prompt you to leave the UAE instead, you had nothing you said no to that you, you extended your stay. Talk to us about how you view your role in advancing Israel's place. 

Isaac Herzog:

I believe that the Abraham Accords which have followed the trailblazing peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt, are a sea change, sea change in history, sea change in world affairs in the region, because there is an opening of a real dialogue between Jew and Muslim in the region. We see it all over. The interactions are huge. And I find the role of the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain, which we visited as well. immensely important. And I truly believe that we should make an effort that the next chapter will be with Saudi Arabia, I also want to commend the Kingdom of Morocco, which has gone has gone and is a leap ahead dramatically in the our relations. And I believe in that relations tremendously. I also want to commend the Sudan and I hope that they will settle their affairs. 

But I want to say something about the UAE because the UAE is moving forward continuously in the relationship. And that is extremely important. I want to congratulate my good friend Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed, the President of the United Arab Emirates, for assuming the leadership of the International Climate Conference known as cop 28, which will take place a few months down the road. I was extremely honored to receive a personal invitation by Sheikh Mohammed and his government and I will attend that conference together with Prime Minister Netanyahu. And I also want to add that most importantly, is that this conference is still then headed by Chef Sultan Al Jabil, by Dr. Sultana Jabber, who is the representative of the UAE in dealing with climate issues. Because I believe that the cooperation between Israel and the Arab nations, Israel and the United Arab Emirates and its neighbors, as to the issue of climate and its impact in the world, has a huge potential, and it sends a spirit of inclusiveness, of friendship, of a future of hope to all peoples. And I welcomed this wholeheartedly and I believe it will make a huge change in the future. 

Ted Deutch:

Thank you. AJC, as you know, Mr. President, through our offices in Jerusalem, and in Abu Dhabi, remains committed to advancing this vision that you describe, as well as the opportunities to build closer relations between Jews and Muslims.

And I am being told to wrap it up, but if you'd like to-

Isaac Herzog:

So let's take one, your final question: now, there are 400 youngsters here.

Ted Deutch:

Yes, yes. How did you know that was my next question. Yes. 

Isaac Herzog:

Because that's what you say.

Ted Deutch:

It's not often that they get to hear from the President of the State of Israel, what would you like them to hear before you leave our stage? 

Isaac Herzog:

So guys, you have your generation will face many challenges our parents generation faced our generation face and your generation will face you will have to take a lead role and

and add another chapter in the history of the Jewish people. And I would say that one is the challenge of unity, meaning not uniformity, but unity, meaning the respect the love and affection between the nation state of the Jewish people, the State of Israel and its people and the Jewish Diaspora wherever it may be, all Jews must be able to practice their beliefs without fears, and we know harassment and be connected in their hearts to the State of Israel.

And we should, we should be able to have the impact, the influence of the Jewish world, within our society within our democracy, understanding that Israel is a developing society, evolving society into a more multicultural, more diversified, fascinating, interesting and promising country. Thank you very much.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

People have a Pod hosted not just one but two live podcast recordings during AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv. If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for one of those live shows featuring my conversation with two Ukrainian refugees, who now call Israel home. Tune in next week for the second live show with Mishy Harman, the host of one of Israel's top podcasts, Israel Story, and Eran Peleg, whose grandfather signed Israel's Declaration of Independence.

Margo Vdovichenko and Diana Buchman, both refugees of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, have found new lives in Israel. Margo, a student from Kyiv, now plans to attend medical school, while Diana, a single mother, bravely shielded her sons during their escape from Odessa. Recorded live at AJC Global Forum 2023, this moving conversation captures their journey and adjustment to life in Israel. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

____

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Margo Vdovichenko and Diana Buchman

____

Show Notes:

Watch: 

• This conversation from AJC Global Forum 2023 

Listen:

• Hakeem Jeffries on Israel, Ghana, and Representing Brooklyn

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

This week, guest host Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC's Senior Director of Policy and Political Affairs, had the honor of connecting with Hakeem Jeffries, the leader of the House Democratic Caucus, after he led a congressional delegation to Israel and Ghana. As we approach the AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, we have the opportunity to listen to the Democratic leader's insights on the trip, the crucial nature of the U.S.-Israel relationship, and the historical and contemporary significance of Black-Jewish relations.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

____

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Hakeem Jeffries

____

Show Notes:

Learn more about AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv: AJC.org/GlobalForum

Listen:

• • 8 of the Best Jewish Podcasts Right Now

  • From Roots to Harmony: Nefesh Mountain's Fusion of Jewish American Culture and Bluegrass

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of interview with Hakeem Jeffries: 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

This week, Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC's Senior Director of Policy and Political Affairs, had the honor of connecting with leader of the House Democratic Caucus, Hakeem Jeffries, after he led a group of lawmakers on a recent trip to Israel. Julie, the mic is yours.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

Thanks, Manya. It's my pleasure to introduce Rep. Hakeem Jeffries, who represents the very diverse 8th congressional district of New York, in Brooklyn, and also serves as the Democratic Leader. He was unanimously elected to that position in November 2022, and in that capacity he is the highest ranking democrat in the US house. He is also the former chair of the democratic caucus, the whip of the congressional black caucus, and previously co-chaired the  Democratic Policy and Communications committee. Also, a great friend of AJC and the Jewish community. Leader Jeffries, welcome to People of the Pod.

Hakeem Jeffries:    

Wonderful to be on. Thanks so much for having me.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

I want to get started by asking you about Jewish American Heritage Month, which as you know, we celebrate in May. Many listeners may not realize that members in congressional leadership cosponsor very few bills – meaning cosign or add their name to endorse them . In this Congress–correct me if I'm wrong–you've cosponsored fewer than a dozen bills and only one resolution–the resolution commemorating Jewish American Heritage Month. Can you speak about this effort and why it was important to you to help lead it?

Hakeem Jeffries:  

Well, thank you so much. And that is absolutely correct. The tradition has been that members and leadership sponsor very few bills and even fewer resolutions, just because the enormity of the request is large. And you want to make sure that you're being very discerning in terms of what you want to elevate as a priority. And for me, it was incredibly important to make sure that I co sponsored the resolution that commemorated Jewish American Heritage Month for a variety of reasons, including the fact that I'm privileged to represent a district that has one of the largest Jewish communities in the country. In fact, I represent the ninth most African American district in the country, and the 16th most Jewish. And so I represent. As a good friend of mine, Leon Goldenberg, once and I quote, you've got the best of both worlds.

It's an honor, though, to represent the reformed Jewish community, the conservative Jewish community, the Orthodox Jewish community, the modern Orthodox Jewish community, the ultra orthodox Jewish community, and more Russian speaking Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union than any other member of Congress in the country. I mean, Hakeem Jeffries, who knew only in America, but that's Brooklyn, that's New York City and the Jewish community has meant so much to the country, which is why we honor and celebrate and elevate Jewish American Heritage month but particularly has meant so much to the district that I'm privileged to represent to Brooklyn and to the great city of New York.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

The United States has many heritage months that celebrate the various communities that form the mosaic of our country, including Black History Month, Women's History Month, Hispanic Heritage Month, and more. By celebrating heritage months, we learn about one another, we honor the richness of our diverse nation, and we strengthen the fabric of American society. Some have described JAHM as going on the offensive against rising antisemitism, do you think that's an appropriate description? Amidst rising antisemitism and hate of all forms, does this change how we think about commemorative months? 

Hakeem Jeffries:   

Yes, it's a great question. I do think AJC's leadership and certainly the leadership of my former colleague, and good friend, Ted Deutsch has been phenomenally important in this area. And your leadership, Julie, of course, and this podcast and communicating information to the American people will continue to be critical. And the fact that the Jewish community is facing a shocking rise in anti semitism and hate crimes is a cause for alarm for all of us. And it does, I think, lead to the important conclusion that we need to rethink how we lean into the celebrations and acknowledgments, such as Jewish American Heritage Month. That is not just simply an opportunity to be able to communicate to the American people about the many accomplishments, the many ways in every field of human endeavor that Jewish Americans have contributed to the growth and development of America as we know it. And that is important, and that is appropriate. And that is a central part of what celebrating Jewish American Heritage Month should be all about. 

But it also provides a vehicle to make sure that the appropriate narrative is in the public domain in a compelling way, as a vehicle to push back against the rise in antisemitism and hate crimes. Because it's an all hands on deck approach. And it is going to require using every tool available to us. The rise in sort of hatred and extremism, and divisive, generally should trouble us all throughout America over the last several years, and particularly, the sharp and dramatic rise, particularly given the history of the Jewish community, over 1000s of years of persecutions, and pogroms and pain and suffering, should alarm us all. And it is exactly the reason why thinking about this month as one of the tools that we can use to push back aggressively against the rise and hatred is an important and appropriate approach.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

In April, during your first congressional delegation trip as Leader, you traveled to Israel. You have been a great supporter, supporting Israel's right to defense and speaking out against anti-Israel sentiment time and time again. What were your biggest takeaways from this mission? What are the major challenges and opportunities for the U.S.-Israel relationship?

Hakeem Jeffries:  

Well, that was my sixth time traveling to Israel, fifth time as a member of Congress. And the first time that I traveled to Israel, I actually was a freshman member of the New York State Legislature as part of a trip sponsored by the JCRC of New York, a wonderful opportunity. Someone said to me recently, Julie, wait, wait. You've been to Israel six times. I said, Yes. That's more than any other country you've been to in the world. I said, That would be correct. Is it isn't that a lot? I said, No, not at all. First of all, I'm from New York City, where we consider Jerusalem to be the sixth borough. And I'm just trying to catch up to my constituents. Every time I go to Israel, it's a wonderful eye opening experience. This particular trip was meaningful to me in that I was able to actually lead a delegation for the first time in this position and choose where I would go to in the world as part of my first congressional trip on foreign soil, as the House Democratic Leader. And I chose to go to Israel and to Ghana, to incredibly meaningful countries to meet personally, to the people that I represent, and, of course, to the relationship that exists between the United States and Israel. And I wanted to do it so that it was timed to the anniversary of the 75th founding of the State of Israel, because I thought that will be meaningful for the members that agreed to travel with me and certainly meaningful to me to say to the world, that we're going to continue, as we've transitioned leadership in the House of Representatives, to stand behind the special relationship between the United States and Israel. And to make it clear that that's a special relationship that we as House Democrats believe, is anchored in our shared values and our shared strategic interests. And it was incredible because of the timing of we were there, both on the day of remembrance was incredibly moving. And I was able to participate in one of the ceremonies that we're held to acknowledge those who have been lost, both to acts of terror, and in the conflicts that Israel has been made to endure throughout the 75 year history.

And then, of course, on the eve of the celebration connected to the 75th anniversary, and we had a very diverse group of members, several prominent Jewish American members of Congress, of course, like Josh Gottheimer and Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Dean Phillips, Sarah Jacobs, who was a new and emerging leader, but also the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus. Steve Horsford, the chair of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, Nanette Barragan, the first vice chair of the Congressional Black Caucus, Yvette Clarke, as well as the top Democrat on the foreign affairs committee, Greg Meeks. And so it was a wonderful experience. We had important public policy discussions with Prime Minister Netanyahu, President Herzog, with the Speaker of the Knesset, as well as the opposition leader, Lapid, they were open, they were honest, there were candid discussions about the challenges that our two countries face. But it was all anchored in our clear affirmation of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish and democratic state, and our commitment as House Democrats to continue to lift up and elevate the special relationship between our two countries.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

So important. How's Israel doing at 75?

Hakeem Jeffries:   

I think Israel, it's a miracle, as has been described, that we've gotten to 75 years. And it's a testament to the strength, and the resilience and the ability, the heart, the soul, the love the intellect, of the Jewish people, and the people of the State of Israel. And I'm confident that through the challenges that we all face in Israel, the best is yet to come. You had an interesting discussion, because of the judicial reform, issues that are underway. And we've got challenges that we're working through here in the United States of America, certainly, as it relates to the Supreme Court, and what is the right, you know, balance in terms of our three branches of government. And we've got to work through that here. Many of us have been troubled by recent developments coming out of the Supreme Court, and Israel's working through trying to figure out what that right balance is, in terms of the rule of law, and the independence of the judiciary, and how that works together.

I think what has been clear to me, in terms of Israel as a robust democracy, that will continue to be a robust democracy is not the challenge is that it's working through to find common ground. And those talks are being led, of course, by President Herzog. But most significantly, the fact that hundreds of 1000s of Israelis have been in the streets, exercising their right, their freedom of expression, their freedom of speech, their freedom of assembly, the right to peaceably gather and petition your government that is at the hallmark of a democratic society. And that's what we've seen, and not a single shot fired, probably nowhere else in the Middle East, would that have occurred other than in Israel, and it's an affirmation of Israel's democratic character.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

In just a few weeks, AJC will hold our annual Global Forum in Tel Aviv. What is one piece of advice you'd give the 1000 or so people coming from around the world to Israel at this time?

Hakeem Jeffries:  

Well, I do think that every time I've gone to Israel, what has been a wonderful aspect of the trip was talking to the full range of people in Israeli society, to get the perspectives on the ground in terms of their views related to the challenges that Israel confront, and the opportunities that exists to continue to thrive into the future. And those are particularly relevant conversations to have now that Israel has hit this incredible milestone of 75 years in what still remains one of the toughest, if not the toughest neighborhoods in the world. And one of the reasons why sustained dialogue, sustained opportunity to engage in wonderful that AJC is hosting this forum in the next month, is that the challenges are always unique whenever one arrives in Israel.

You know, it could be Hamas, it could be Hezbollah, it could be uncertainty in terms of the Iranian malign activity in Syria. It's always, you know, Iran's efforts to try to secure a nuclear weapon and we're gonna make sure that Iran never becomes nuclear capable in Gaza. There are different moments in time, where particular concern meets a level of urgency, but it's always consistently within the frame of Israel living in a very tough neighborhood, which is what I, you know, we reiterated as House Democrats directly to Prime Minister Netanyahu, our commitment to ensuring Israel maintains its qualitative military edge. My view on this thing has always been, and I grew up in central Brooklyn, came of age in the mid to late 80s, early 90s. I kind of know from tough neighborhoods. That was a tough neighborhood. I grew up in Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Gaza, chaos in Syria, in Iraq, Iran with nuclear aspirations, dangerous situation in the Sinai. That's a tough neighborhood. And in a tough neighborhood. The one constant, as I've consistently said, is strength. You can achieve peace, you can achieve stability, but you can only achieve it through the lens of strength. And I think, part of the dialogue that we all should continue to have and will be important for AJC to continue to have is, you know, what are the severe threats that Israel currently confronts? And how can we continue to ensure that Israel has the strength to defend itself and to provide a foundation for lasting peace moving forward building upon things like the Abraham accords?

Julie Fishman Rayman: 

Prior to Israel, you and the members of congress who traveled with you to Israel went to Ghana, one of America's closest allies in West Africa and a nation that still bears the painful scars of the transatlantic slave trade. At AJC's 2019 Global Forum, you became the first member of the congressional Caucus on Black-Jewish Relations, I think less than an hour after it was officially launched. Did your back to back trips to Ghana and then Israel spark any insights as we continue–collectively–to try to bring Blacks and Jews closer together? Especially because Blacks and Jews were really strongly represented in your delegation?

Hakeem Jeffries:  

Yes, you know, AJC's effort in terms of forming the black Jewish caucus was a wonderful thing, a great foundation. And in many ways, the trip to Ghana and to Israel is in that same tradition. And as you pointed out, Julie, there were a lot of African American members of Congress who on the trip and a lot of Jewish men from the members of Congress who were on the trip who visited both countries. And, you know, we were able to involve Ghana, and in Israel and Ghana, visit the Cape Coast slave castles, which were central to the horrific transatlantic slave trade.

And we also were able to visit Yad Vashem and I was able to lay a wreath and make it clear that we would never forget and never again, allow the Horus of what was seen during the Holocaust to occur. And it was important that in addition to, in Ghana, for instance, meeting with President Akufo Addo, to visit the site, for a lot of the activity of the transatlantic slave trade, and, of course, the ties that then connect to the African American community in the United States of America, and to visit the door of no return. But also to make sure that, in the time that we were in Israel, almost every time that I've been there, we've always made it a point to make sure that we visited Yad Vashem, it's always a very powerful, moving experience. And it was the same and to be able to do it together with black members of Congress and Jewish members of Congress, and leaders, who were not black and Jewish, but were on the trip with us, was really a powerful experience, I think, for everyone involved. And I think it's important for us to continue to try to lean in to strengthening the relationships between the black and Jewish community. It's something that because of the district that I represent, has always been central to my time and public service. And I do you know, I am moved by the fact that at least part of the district that I represent, and that told this story during the Democratic caucus celebration of Jewish American Heritage Month, but I tried to tell it whenever I get the opportunity that I do represent a district that was once represented in part by a manual seller. And a manual seller was the longest certain Congress person in the history of the country. He served for 50 years, first elected in 1922. And served through 1972. 

He was a staunch ally and advocate for the special relationship between the United States and Israel from the very beginning. He was there, I believe, with Truman, when the United States first recognized Israel, and was there to support the special relationship every step of the way throughout the time that he was in Congress. But what also is little known about Manny seller, as he was affectionately known in Brooklyn, is that during the 1960s, he was also the chair of the House Judiciary Committee, which meant that he played an important role, legislatively, and making sure that the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and the 1965 Voting Rights Act, became the law of the land, to crush Jim Crow, and crushed the effort to oppress the ability of African Americans, particularly in the south to participate fully in our democracy. And then you go to civil rights museums across the country, and whenever there have been exhibits, even here in the Library of Congress, usually always an acknowledgement of the role that Manny Celler played. And I'm proud of the fact that I can represent a district that someone who was such an important link between the black and Jewish community and actually played a meaningful role in helping to advance legislation to change the course of America, in supporting the efforts and leadership of Dr. King and others, is an important thing. 

That's a tradition that I look forward to continuing to build upon and at the same time, to be able to represent a district as I mentioned earlier, where I serve more Russian speaking Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union than anyone else. And to know that Dr. King took time out from his days of leading the civil rights movement, to speak to Jewish leaders and rabbinical leaders across the country famously anchored in his guiding principle, that injustice anywhere is a justice everywhere, and it was great injustice, being directed at the Jewish community that was behind the Iron Curtain during the days of the Soviet Union, and to use his voice to speak up on behalf of what he appropriately viewed as his Jewish brothers and sisters who are facing oppression. That example that was set by Dr. King, that example that was set by Congressman Judiciary Committee Chair Manny Celler, who wasn't just focused on strengthening the relationship between the United States and Israel, but also dealt with the injustices directed at African Americans throughout the United States. That's a powerful heritage for us in Congress, or us as leaders, as AJC has promoted, to continue to build upon.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

Thank you so much, you've provided us with such a sweeping understanding not just of the history-everything from Manny Celler to Dr. King to Yad Vashem. But also a vision for where we can all go collectively. Whether it's in May, during Jewish American Heritage Month, or Black History Month, or every day, trying to honor the legacy of Americans from all facets who lift up our great nation and make it what it is today. Leader Jeffries, thank you for your leadership and thank you for being with us.

Hakeem Jeffries:  

Thank you so much, what an honor Julie to be on and all the best to you and look forward to continuing to work closely with Ted, with AJC, on behalf of the issues that we all care about, particularly as it relates to the well being of the Jewish community here in the United States of America and throughout the world.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with the Jewish bluegrass duo Nefesh Mountain, featuring not one but two live musical performances, a wonderful way to wrap up our month-long series of shows honoring Jewish American Heritage.

Driven by their message of "radical love," hear how Doni Zasloff and Eric Lindberg, the husband and wife duo behind the renowned bluegrass band Nefesh Mountain, combat antisemitism within the music industry and beyond. Join us as we delve into their remarkable journey of representing Jewish-American culture, tradition, values, and spirituality through bluegrass and Americana music. The band also treats us to intimate performances from their latest album, "Songs for the Sparrows."

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

___

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Doni Zasloff and Eric Lindberg

___

Show Notes:

Learn more about: 

• Nefesh Mountain

Take our quiz:

• Jewish American Heritage Month Quiz

Test your knowledge of the rich culture and heritage of the Jewish people and their many contributions to our nation! Start now.

Read:

• What is Jewish American Heritage Month?

• Jewish American Heritage Month Resources

• Faces of American Jewry

• Amazing Jewish Americans

Listen:

• 8 of the Best Jewish Podcasts Right Now

• Sen. Jon Ossoff on Jewish Resilience

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Doni Zasloff and Eric Lindberg:

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

Nefesh Mountain arrived on the bluegrass and American music scene in 2014. The husband and wife duo of Eric Lindbergh and Doni Zasloff have since performed in hundreds of synagogues in the United States and around the world, representing Jewish American culture, tradition, values and spirituality in the world of bluegrass. Bluegrass Today magazine has described the duo as what happens when bluegrass and Jewish traditions meet and fall madly in love. In honor of Jewish American Heritage Month, Doni and Eric are with us now. Or I should say–we are with Doni and Eric now in their home in northern New Jersey, Doni, Eric, thank you for welcoming "People of the Pod."

Doni Zasloff:   

Thank you for coming. We're so excited to have you.

Eric Lindberg:    

What a treat. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:   

So please share with our listeners how the two of you got together. Did you have individual musical pursuits? Or did you not really find your groove until you were together as a duo.

Eric Lindberg:    

We're both pointing at each other. You tell it.

Doni Zasloff:   

You tell it.

Eric Lindberg:  

Well, we both had individual pursuits. We met playing music in the New York kind of North Jersey area. Years ago, we met back in 2010. And we were playing music in various fashions. And the quick story is that our band is a love story. And we fell in love a few years later, and it became apparent to each of us that we were head over heels crazy about each other. And that we also had all of this stuff that needed to come out that we kind of needed the other person to help kind of embolden our feelings of Americana music and of Jewish life and of culture and all this stuff. 

So I grew up in Brooklyn. And so much of my life as a kid was part of the synagogue, my after school program, and my camp, and of course, synagogue and I had a Bar Mitzvah and I grew up with this big Jewish life in Brooklyn. But at a certain point, I became kind of just a musician, I didn't know where to put this Jewish side of myself. I went to study jazz in college and all this stuff. 

So when I met Doni, she kind of brought me back to this feeling of, well, you can be proud of this and you can be excited about it. And you can live a fully Jewish life, you don't have to do it, any which way. You don't have to be a quote unquote, good or bad Jew, which, we hate those terms, but people tend to use them. Even Jewish people, of course, to show how religious or observant they're being at a certain time. So she had this completely unbridled kind of cowgirl way of looking at being wild and Jewish and proud and being yourself. And ultimately, I think that is pretty much the core of our message as a band. But I guess we'll get to that a little bit later. But she brought me back to this place of really just being proud of who I was. And that was the little germ that started this band. And then I brought kind of this musical sensibility in Americana music, with the banjo, and fiddle, and all this stuff. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And Doni, how about you? What was your journey?

Doni Zasloff:   

I've always loved all different kinds of music. And I've always been very, as Eric was describing, just having a very strong Jewish spirit. And I think what Eric you know, it's exactly right. When Eric and I fell in love and started to really kind of get real with ourselves and we wanted to kind of express ourselves in the most authentic way. And I think my Jewish spirit and his massive knowledge of all kinds of music, and he just kept throwing CDs into my car–listen to this, listen to this, listen to this. And he just kind of opened my mind and my heart to so many styles of music that I--some of which I loved already, some of which I learned. It was just something about the stars aligning for Eric and I that the music that we started to write from our truest selves in that moment, came out in this Nefesh Mountain kind of a way. And it turns out, it's exactly our truth. And it's exactly the thing that we were looking for, this idea of our relationship, our connection. It is our truth and it's become our whole adventure.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And are you talking about the genre of music when you say that the Nefesh Mountain sound, or something else you're referring to?

Doni Zasloff:   

It's not, it's like our language. It's the type of music that we play. It's the stories that we tell, it's the perspective that we have. A lot of people say, you know, where is Nefesh Mountain? Is that a place? And we always say it's a place. We made it up. But it's a place that we kind of, it's like a little dream world, that bubble that Eric and I have sort of dreamt up. Where, you know, it is a little like, the free to be you and me vibes of like, just be yourself. And it's infused with this huge range of musical styles. And Eric brings that to the table. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

Would you describe your genre or style as bluegrass? Or would you describe it as something else? I call it bluegrass. But what do you call it?

Eric Lindberg:  

That's a great question. Because we're right now kind of, you're catching us in the throes of exploring that. And we have been this whole time. I'm a huge fan of bluegrass music. But when I say that, like that means something to me. And it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to everybody. Of course, it's a word out there that means different things, like being Jewish means something different to everybody. You know, is it a religion? Is it a culture? And bluegrass has the same kind of thing where there's a purest form of bluegrass, which when you're talking about Bill Monroe, Flatt and Scruggs, Stanley Brothers, etc, you know. And then you also have the Bluegrass that I grew up with, which was more of a quote, newgrass thing, and also really just ended up being kind of very fancy folk music with the likes of you know, people like Béla Fleck and Nickel Creek, and Punch Brothers and Sarah Jarosz. All these singer songwriters that are starting to write music with bluegrass instruments, and also improvising on a very high level. So bluegrass has become something that is actually more Americana. So these days, we're kind of using Americana.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Talk a little bit about the original purpose of your music, or message that you wanted to convey with your music together. Or the one that's evolved over time, perhaps?

Eric Lindberg:  

Well, the original purpose. I'll say, it was all an accident. You know, we fell in love. That's always an accident. A beautifully happy, you know, accident that is ever evolving and beautiful. We, um...sorry.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Stop making lovey dovey eyes at each other. Actually, you can continue, I just wanted our listeners to know.

Eric Lindberg:

No, no. It's a big story. We fell in love. Your question was…say it again. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

You talked about wanting to be authentic, wanting to express yourselves originally. But has that purpose or intended message of your music evolved over time?

Eric Lindberg:

Yes, it has evolved and the purpose in the beginning, I noticed something when we first started making this music. As a fan of course, Americana, bluegrass, all this stuff. I noticed that so many artists could go out and sing songs about, about Jesus, about Christianity, about their spirituality. And it's not necessarily called religious or overtly Christian, or anything. It's just Americana. Because they are kind of synonymous. 

And the fact that gospel music is kind of at the core and like in the bedrock of what has laid the foundation for Americana music, it goes without saying. So any secular artists can go out there and kind of be themselves in all of that. If they want to sing a gospel tune, well, let's do Will the Circle Be Unbroken, everyone will love it, you know, even though it's a gospel song. Or even songs that we've kind of turned on their ear a little bit like Wayfaring Stranger or Down to the River to Pray, I Fly Away, gospel songs that we love. 

So this was our answer to that– we're gonna bring a sense of Jewish spirituality to the Americana table. And our first records, or really our first record. And then a little bit into the second dealt with some of our liturgy with some of the prayers that we had grown up singing, which, for us, meant a lot. Songs, like Henei Mah Tov, which is a whole song about how great it is to have friends and be together and, you know, celebrate each other's uniqueness and beauty. To songs like, Oseh Shalom, prayer for peace, or something like that. 

Through the years, we found a new purpose. And we've also, you know, been a band through a very trying time in this country. You know, no matter what side of the political fence you're on, it's been, we're all living in a world where we pretty much don't agree. And it's kind of de facto, now, that we don't agree, and we're gonna fight. And unless you see exactly eye to eye with me, I'm your enemy. And we have now kind of taken a stance, we're not politicians by any stretch. But Doni has kind of created this term that I love, and it's called radical love, which is to, regardless of our backgrounds, regardless of, our opinion on this, that, or the other, we are going to look at people in the eye and embrace them, and to put love out, because that's what the world is clearly lacking. 

And it's definitely a kind of hippie sentiment, peace and love, man. But we're fighting all the same things now that everyone was in the 60s, that everyone was in the 70s and 80s. And before that, and probably beyond. And we're challenged with the same issues. We're challenged with racism, antisemitism, a lack of empathy and diversity in neighborhoods and school systems and in cities and the world is still, we want to be happy. So we pretend that it's better than it is sometimes, but it's not great for so many people. And it is a Jewish ideal that I grew up with, this idea of Tikkun Olam, to make the world a little bit better. That's what we want to do through our music.  

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Do you feel like you have had opportunities to share and communicate that radical love? Are you getting through to people? 

Doni Zasloff:  

I think every time we get on a stage that is, in front of anyone really, whether it's a Jewish crowd in front of us, or whether it's a you know, a secular, diverse crowd of people, we don't know what their backgrounds are, we really are kind of stepping into a space where we are putting out this radical love. And I think that we have been blessed with an amazing response to it. People are skeptical about a lot of things. There are Jewish communities that were very skeptical about the banjo and very skeptical about the bluegrass thing. The amount of people that come up to us at a synagogue and say, I thought I hated bluegrass. I had no interest in bluegrass, I love it. Or I thought I was gonna hate you guys. Like I didn't understand what you guys were all about. But it turns out I really love it.

So we're getting a lot of love wherever we go, which is kind of why no matter what's going on, we just keep doing it because, you know, we've also had responses from people of all backgrounds just hugging us, thanking us for sharing this, you know, culture with them. People have come up to me crying like thank you I, I've never met anybody Jewish, I just didn't know, I didn't know. 

I think that music is so powerful, that it can break down so many walls and just shift people's ideas. And so I do think that the response to our radical love has been great. It's not easy, it's a little scary sometimes. It's not always been embraced. There are a lot of bluegrass festivals that wouldn't put us on their stages, because they don't want a Jewish band up there. They don't know what their crowd's gonna think or how that would affect their bottom line, or I don't know.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do they come right out and say that? 

Doni Zasloff:  

Pretty much, yeah, we've definitely gotten that feedback. It's hard to hear, as you can imagine, it's painful. But it's the truth, that there is antisemitism everywhere.

Eric Lindberg:  

Yeah, it used to be–we've been a band since about late 2014. And now, we're knee deep in 2023. And in the beginning stages maybe I was more naive. And I used to kind of think, because, again, the bluegrass world I had in my head was that of progressive music. But I will say that there is a flaw in the bluegrass world and some of the people who want to keep bluegrass being a certain way. And that explains part of our, you know, we will always play bluegrass. So it's not that we won't depart from the genre, but are exploring other areas as well, because we've had clear cut answers of: No, you will never be on this radio station. No, you will not be at this bluegrass festival. We don't have room for people that preach Jewish things. Which is not what we do at all. We have a big show,  I think we're a good band. We've done a lot. I'm proud of what we've done. You know, if the answer was no, because we don't believe you're good enough, then that'd be one thing. But the answer is clearly a Jewish issue. It's a tough thing to live with.

So a little bit of me is, it's one of those things you hope as a little kid growing up, who loves music, who is crying and dancing and laughing and learning it and loving it. And it's the most exciting thing in your life, you hope that when you grow up, that it's not going to turn around and kind of kick you in the ass. And you're not going to see some of the dark underbelly of the world that you love. And unfortunately, some of that has happened. At the same time, I've gotten to play with my heroes, our heroes, Sam Bush and Jerry Douglas and Bryan Sutton. The people, the people that I've loved as musicians have all been the most beautiful, like creatures on planet Earth. They are very much beloved to us and our family. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I'm not totally surprised. We love bluegrass as a family. But my kids do call it Jesus music occasionally. And we make sojourns to bluegrass jam sessions. There's one in Little Silver, New Jersey once a month that we've made the sojourn to at the little Methodist church there in town and I sing along with I Saw the Light. My eight year old wants to play the banjo, that's the musical instrument he has settled on to learn. That's why you guys stand out so much is that you have given to us, a sense of belonging. That like we belong in this world too, we belong in those seats as well. And so I'm not surprised that you have experienced that, but my heart is breaking a little as you talk.

Eric Lindberg:  

And I want to add that there's nothing wrong at all with bluegrass music, with celebrating Christianity and that spirituality, at all. And I just want to be really clear, because that's the music that I love. And I'll sing along with those songs, too. I love those songs. And it's not, as Doni was saying before, it's not like we haven't, we're playing a lot where there are folks that are saying yes, that are embracing us. But there is something about, you know, when you're Jewish, and when you get that kind of feedback, because it speaks more to antisemitism than I think the musical world or the culture that we live around us in, in this country. I hope that I am being clear in that, the music is beautiful, and the heritage is beautiful. And we're not saying we should be like, we love bluegrass culture, bluegrass music, Americana culture, all that stuff. We love our Jewish culture. And we only want to do right by both sides of that equation, you know, make sure that they're balanced and treated with love.

Doni Zasloff: 

But just like the world, there is, a little bit of a, not a little bit. I mean, the antisemitism that we're seeing, right now, in this country, it's everywhere, including what Eric was talking about. It doesn't just go away. We were at a big conference, and somebody came up to me, and I tell this story a lot, this guy came over to me in a big cowboy hat. And he just looked at me and he said, Why do you have to be here? Why do you have to play this music? 

Eric Lindberg:  

He actually said, you actually don't belong. 

Doni Zasloff:

Y'all don't belong here. This Jewish thing, just basically, get out. And I remember just like, taking a deep breath, walking outside, I think I cried a little bit. I think I called my dad. You know, I was just like, What am I doing here? Like, this is nuts. You know, but then I walked back in and I'm getting, hugs and like, a lot of love. So, you know, this is part of being outwardly Jewish, I think right now. Like, it's just kind of what happens.

Eric Lindberg:  

And that's the phrase that we haven't, we haven't said yet, because it seems like kind of a strange thing, to be outwardly Jewish. What does that mean? And I didn't grow up in a world where, where people did this, you know, and it kind of boils down to, there's a decision that we have to make that I had to make, and Doni, as musicians that are we going to be a band that is just about the music. And largely we are, actually we want to make good music first and foremost. And we also want to be a band that is, we live in this world, and we are seeing a rise in antisemitism, and we are scared about it. It troubles us and it makes my blood pressure rise and it's terrifying. And if we don't say anything about it, if we're not outwardly Jewish, if we're not openly wearing the star on our chest, you know, so to speak, or on our shoulders. I don't think we're doing ourselves a service. I think we're hiding behind something. For better or worse we're openly going out there and talking about this stuff all the time, because, you know, it won't get better if we don't.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

You have recorded three albums, you're getting ready to release a fourth. Is that correct?

Eric Lindberg:  

Yeah, we actually have four albums out. One is a live one that we kind of snuck out at the end of 2021. Okay. But yeah, there's four that you can stream or buy or any of that stuff, and we have some new music coming out that we're really excited about.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

If you could talk a little bit about the inspiration behind those albums, because I know that they tell stories. And I'm curious if you could, you could share with our listeners. 

Eric Lindberg:  

"Songs for the Sparrows" is the most personal and adventurous recording that we've done, it was a huge undertaking. But maybe Doni, you want to tell them a little bit about the inspiration behind that record.

Doni Zasloff:

That record was inspired by a trip that Eric and I took with our older kids and my mother. My mom did all of this research about our family history, in Eastern Europe, and found all of this information and was able to locate the town that our families we're from. And so we did this big roots trip. It turns out I'm from Ukraine, I thought I was from Poland, but now it's Ukraine. And so we went on this trip, and we saw the town that my family was from and then we saw the forest outside of this town where some of my ancestors, we believe, were shot. 

We saw so many things, this trip really kind of just rocked us. I mean, it's everything that we've learned about. But to go there and to see it, it's not in a book, it's not in black and white. It's there and to see that the history was kind of almost trying to be erased, in modern times. It was hiding, we had to dig it up to even know that it had happened.

Eric Lindberg:  

Literally hiding like we'd get there, we were in Lviv, this is of course before current day, this is back in 2018. And we were in this kind of great shopping area and parking lot and our tour guide had to say, you know, this was a cemetery. This was one of our flea markets. It was like a flea market and it was like what's going on? And there's vibrant life happening but at the same time, no one was…

Doni Zasloff:

Everything was destroyed, everything, you know, everything hundreds and hundreds of synagogues. I mean almost all of our ancestors, you know, this is where it all was at. But anyway, so we were on this trip. And while we were there I posted a picture on Facebook saying you know I'm on this roots trip. And then one of Eric's cousins like a distant cousin Reuvain, who had also done a lot of research on his family history, started sending email after email to Eric saying, Eric Eric, you are from six hours south of Lviv, you are from the Carpathian Mountains, that's where our family is from, you should go. So we turn the bus around, we ended up going six hours south to the Carpathian Mountains, so that we could see where Eric's family was from the next day.

Eric Lindberg:  

And just like you thought your family was from Poland, I thought my family's from Austria-Hungary. But in '91, the borders all shifted. And so my grandma grew up, you know, grandma, where we from, she spoke a little Hungarian and, and Yiddish too. It was always Austria-Hungary. That's where we were from. And now of course, it's present day Ukraine.

Doni Zasloff:  

Right, so we take this six hour drive south, and through the help of Reuvain, were able to find the cemetery where Eric's great grandfather was buried. Hours of looking, and we finally get there, and it had been destroyed. But somebody actually was trying to restore it. But it was little bits and pieces of stones everywhere. But at least it was kind of marked as something. So we went in there and looked for hours, we spent hours trying to find a little evidence of something with his great-grandfather's name on it. We never found anything. 

But there was a moment when we were walking around the cemetery that we looked up and saw all of these little birds flying above us, these tiny little sparrows. And there was just something that kind of was very breathtaking about the whole experience and kind of weird. We went through this whole trip, kind of taking it all in. It was a very emotional as you can imagine, like, just very intense trip. We got home and we're trying to like process it six weeks after we returned home was the tree of life shooting in Pittsburgh. So it was like, you know, part of our brains would like you know, that was the past that when it happened over there, this was a terrible thing. It happened over there. Then suddenly we come home and it's happening here. And there's this hate and there's this violence and so it was just like all swirling in our heads and we just kept thinking we have to do something we have to like we just felt compelled to make Now we'll basically or to do something, we didn't know what it was gonna be, we just had to write. But then we kept coming back to that moment with the bird with the sparrows, when we were walking around the cemetery. And Eric and I had this thought, well, maybe those sparrows were our ancestors. And maybe the and then the sparrow, maybe the sparrow. And we learned that sparrows live all over the world. They're small and mighty, and they live and their sparrows everywhere, there's sparrows outside of this house, there are sparrows in Ukraine, there's sparrows everywhere. So the sparrow has become, you know, became a symbol or a totem for anyone who has been discriminated against and hated for just being themselves. You know, whether it's our ancestors, or anyone, right now who's just not being accepted for the person that they were born to be. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Unbelievable. I want to ask you about your upbringing. And I know Eric grew up in Brooklyn, but where did you grow up? Did you have a bat mitzvah? What's your spiritual journey?

Doni Zasloff: 

I was born in New York. And then I lived a little bit in Boston and then I grew up in DC in the DC area and then Philadelphia and then I moved to New York so it's been you know, East Coasty.  So I grew up going to Jewish camps and Jewish schools and I had this very intense connection to my Jewish spirituality. Like, I hated it, I loved it, I challenged it. It was like, I needed it. I didn't want it, you know, it was but I was in it. You know, I had this relationship with my Jewish identity. Even as a little kid, like a little girl, I remember, I wrapped to fill in when I you know, in a Jewish Day School setting, and like the rabbis were like, you know, angry at me, you know, things like that. Like, I was just like, really rebellious in my relationship with my Jewish self and going to Jewish schools and things like that. So I don't know, I felt like a Jewish cowgirl really my whole life. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You have a film crew that has been shadowing you for quite a while now. Six months. And tell us a little bit about "We Sing Nonetheless." Which is the title of an upcoming documentary.

Eric Lindberg:  

Yeah, it's really exciting. We met this awesome gentleman, Adam, up in Boston, we were playing a show, I believe that was at his synagogue. But we were, you know, it was just after the show, and I'm like, kind of sweaty, over by the merch or something, and I just start talking to this guy. And he's like, I'm a documentary filmmaker. Little did I know, he's an Emmy award winning documentary filmmaker, and his last project,  Dawnland with the--Upstander Project is the name of the organization. And we became really kind of fast friends, so much in common. And we just kind of started texting a little and throwing around some, could this work.I'm kinda like, there's gonna be a documentary about us? I mean, what we do is really important, but I kind of forget that we're the ones that do it sometimes. And I'm like, You're gonna follow us around and, and do this thing. And he was serious about it. And it's turned into, it's happening. It's a project. It's gonna be a movie. 

And the working title is We Sing Nonetheless, which is borrowed from one of our lyrics. It's from this song called Tree of Life. It's a bigger story, because we wrote it the day of the Pittsburgh shooting. But the refrain in that song is this lyric, but we sing nonetheless. Despite this pain that we've gone through with everything we've talked about with the sparrows and all this stuff, we sing nonetheless. And it's a lyric that we of course, we love, we wrote it. But when Adam came to us and said, that could be a theme. I was kind of blown away, because that's kind of one of the core messages of the band, which is that, despite history, and what history tells us and what we've learned, we are here, so we have to sing, we have to make that choice to sing.

Doni Zasloff:

And it's so Jewish. I mean, it's just such a Jewish like, that's what we do. So it just feels –actually he came up with the title. And I just burst out crying. I was just like, oh, yeah, that's kind of, that's just how my life has been. It's just always that, you know.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

I want to talk about one of my favorite songs of yours, and one of the most calming: tell us about the inspiration behind Evermore (Hashkiveinu), which is another song off your album Song For the Sparrows.

Doni Zasloff:

Oh, yeah. I love the gosh, every song's like another one of our babies but the song that we wrote called, Hashkiveinu, the Hashkiveinu prayer that was inspired. Eric started writing that, I think because I was having a hard time sleeping. And I think you wrote that one to try to help me get through the night. 

Eric Lindberg:

Yeah.

Doni Zasloff: 

When I was like, I just have a hard, sometimes I just can't, not sometimes, most times.

Eric Lindberg:  

Still some days you're just like, I didn't sleep. That's actually a great one to bring up because it's based on this ancient prayer, Hashkiveinu. It's based on this ancient idea. And then when really reading the text and we looked through a lot of different translations and it's just beautiful that we would you know, that moment at night before sleep, first of all, we all have it's universal. And the idea that these angels come and like take us to this land and like golden shores and all this kind of like cool imagery. 

Doni Zasloff:  

[singing, acapella] Shelter, oh shelter as night...

Doni Zasloff and Eric Lindberg:  

[singing, acapella] Shelter, oh shelter as night settles in 

Lay us down beside tranquil shores 

So we can dream of the wings 

That'll bring us home again 

For now, and evеrmore

Eric Lindberg:  

Something like that. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Beautiful. 

Eric Lindberg:  

Yeah, I mean, but that's our task. You know, sometimes if we are looking at a song from a prayer, I'm glad you brought it up because, while we're not like, the word religious can mean something different to everybody, but these prayers are based in also our culture and our heritage. And it's all one if you're living a Jewish life, and I think that this is one of these beautiful, poetic, whimsical, magical prayers, that is, that is a part of our culture that we're super proud of. And we kind of wrote this folk song around it, about being able to get yourself to sleep, despite the day you've had.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Beautiful. Would you mind closing us out with another song?

Doni Zasloff:  

[guitar playing] This song's called Where Oh Where, it was intended to be a song of hope, inspired by nature. And it's a response to all of the not so great things that we're seeing around us, to try to comfort ourselves really. But it's called Where Oh Where.

Doni Zasloff and Eric Lindberg:

[singing, with guitar] 

Where oh where are the sweetest songs

Of Miriam and her daughters?

They were sung beside the seas and tides

So still must be out on the waters

Still on the waters

Where oh where is the wisdom

Sung by the many before us?

She was there inside the tree of life

So still must reside in the forest

Still in the forest

Yai da dai da dai dum dai dai

Dum dai ya da dum dai

Ya da dai da dai dum dai dai

Dum dai ya da dum dai

Where oh where is the innocence

From our first days in Eden?

They used to rest their heads on the flowerbeds

So still must be there in the gardens

Still in the gardens

Yai da dai da dai dum dai dai

Dum dai ya da dum dai

Ya da dai da dai dum dai dai

Dum dai ya da dum dai

Where oh where's the forgiveness

From the age of the flood so long ago?

Under all the rain the earth remained

So it's still in the fields and the meadows

In the fields and the meadows

Yai da dai da dai dum dai dai

Dum dai ya da dum dai

Ya da dai da dai dum dai dai

Dum dai ya da dum dai

Where oh where's our compassion

Is it somewhere we can discover?

It's never too far, it's right where you are

It's always been in the arms of each other

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Thank you so much. 

Eric Lindberg: 

Sure thing. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

It's been a jam-packed Jewish American Heritage Month here on People of the Pod: we kicked off with AJC CEO Ted Deutch, popped into the kitchen with Busy in Brooklyn food blogger and cookbook author Chanie Apfelbaum, and last week, we heard from from Georgia Senator Jon Ossoff. Thank you for joining us to close out the month with Nefesh Mountain. Tune in later this week for our sit-down with House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries.

Senator Jon Ossoff (D-GA), the first millennial Senator and the first Jewish member of the Senate from Georgia, joins us to honor Jewish American Heritage Month. He shares his family's survival against antisemitism and his efforts to combat it today through his work on the Senate Bipartisan Task Force for Combating Antisemitism. He also discusses his connection to Israel and feeling Jewish and proud at a recent Yom HaShoah event in his home state.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

___

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Jon Ossoff

____

Show Notes:

Take our quiz:

• Jewish American Heritage Month Quiz:

Test your knowledge of the rich culture and heritage of the Jewish people and their many contributions to our nation! Start now.

Read:

• What is Jewish American Heritage Month?

• Jewish American Heritage Month Resources

• Faces of American Jewry

• Amazing Jewish Americans

Listen:

• 8 of the Best Jewish Podcasts Right Now

• "Busy in Brooklyn" Food Blogger Chanie Apfelbaum Talks Kosher Cuisine and Jewish Heritage

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Jon Ossoff:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Jon Ossoff was a documentary filmmaker and investigative journalist before he became a United States senator representing Georgia. He is the youngest member of the Senate elected since 1980. The first millennial in fact. He's also the first Jewish member of the Senate from Georgia. In fact, the first Jewish Senator from the deep south since 1878. Senator Ossoff joins us now in honor of Jewish American Heritage Month. Senator, welcome to People of the Pod.

Jon Ossoff:

Manya, thank you so much for the invitation. It's an honor to be here. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So, Israel just celebrated its 75th birthday. It's a young country, but it's twice as old as you. You are 36, I believe. How do you relate to that historic milestone, as someone who's Jewish, who's a father, as a Senator who knows Israel's strategic importance to the United States? How do you relate to Israel?

Jon Ossoff:

Well, I think I should begin with a reflection on how my family's story has influenced me and influenced how I think about US-Israel relations. I was sworn in to the Senate, and in my jacket pocket at that moment, had the ship's manifests, documenting the arrival of my great grandparents, Annie and Israel, at Ellis Island, from Eastern Europe, in 1911 and 1913. And they left Eastern Europe in the early 20th century, as so many European Jews did, fleeing antisemitism. And while many members of my family and ancestors managed to escape, as in so many Jewish families, there were many who did not. And of those who did not, to my knowledge, all but one perished in the Holocaust. And I remember as a very young child, spending time with my uncle Nate, I called him uncle Nate. He had escaped, and hidden in the forests around the camp and the worksite, until he was liberated. 

And I remember as a young child sitting with him and tracing with my finger, the numbers tattooed into his arm. And I think so many American Jews have experiences like that one, having grown up among Holocaust survivors. And growing up among survivors, and being keenly aware of the genocide of Jews, the attempt with industrial-scale brutality to extinguish the Jewish people forever, has a profound impact on all Jews, all Jews in the United States, all Jews around the world. 

And of course, it has a profound impact on how I view the State of Israel, recognizing that the State of Israel was established 75 years ago as Jews rebuilt in the ashes of the Holocaust, and sought to establish a secure homeland for the Jewish people. 

I am now, as many American Jews are, deeply concerned about Israel's future, deeply concerned about the trends and dynamics and risks in the broader Middle East. And as an American policymaker, of course, particularly focused on US national security interests and other interests in the region. So I have worked for the last couple of years, to build strong working relationships, on a foundation of trust with regional leaders in Israel, in neighboring and surrounding countries, and in the Palestinian Authority, so that I can play a constructive role advancing US interests, and working to ensure that Israel can survive as a democracy and a secure homeland for the Jewish people. And also that all people in this region can one day flourish in peace and security and freedom.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Do you believe that your colleagues share that understanding of the importance of Israel, the importance of Israel to the Jewish people. And as a follow up to that, you know, we deal a lot with combating and fighting antisemitism. How much of today's antisemitism is kind of disguised as anti-Israel criticism, and has to do with a lack of understanding of the role of Israel?

Jon Ossoff:

Look, I think that these things can and sometimes do overlap. And I think we also have to be clear that in our free society, and as we as free citizens discuss the state of the world, we also have to avoid dismissing any critical views of Israeli policy as mere antisemitism, because there are many principled people who have a diversity of views about the Middle East region, who hold those views in good faith, not born of any kind of religious hatred. 

You know, as for my colleagues in the Senate, I do believe that there is a growing and strong awareness of the rising tide and threat of antisemitism at this moment here in the United States, and around the world. In Georgia, just recently, there have been multiple incidents of hateful antisemitic literature being littered in the yards and driveways of Jews in different communities across the state. We've seen, of course, a significant increase in hate crimes, violent threats, and acts of violence, targeting Jews. 

And I was speaking recently at a Yom Hashoah event at a cemetery in Atlanta. It's an annual event that I attend, the Israeli Consul General typically attends, and local Jewish community leaders. And I heard a baby crying during the ceremony. And when I made my remarks, and as a father, my wife, Alicia, and I have an 18 month old baby daughter at home. I shared with the crowd how to me and I think to all of us how profound it was to hear a baby crying at an event remembering the unfathomable loss of the Holocaust, because that baby's voice is proof that the effort to destroy the Jewish people failed, and that we survived and that we persist. 

But that Jewish child is also growing up at a time when antisemitism continues to grow as a threat to Jews in the United States and around the world, which requires us to be vigilant and determined, informed by our people's history. That threats to Jews have not been permanently defeated. As they have throughout history, they rise and rise again and we have to be ever vigilant.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

You have confronted antisemitism in the past, some very classic conspiracy theories. I'm curious how you confront that personally. And what government's role is in combating antisemitism?

Jon Ossoff:

There was the widely covered, widely condemned incident during my Senate campaign. When my opponent's campaign doctored an image of my face to lengthen my nose, portray me as the sort of classic caricature, antisemitic caricature. And look, of course, as a public figure, some of the hate and ill will and sometimes threats that come my way have within them or are motivated by hatred of Jews and antisemitism. 

You know, I think as a public figure Manya, I have had to build the armor, personally necessary to protect myself and my family, to weather threats and insults that come with public life and leadership in the public arena. But for those who have not chosen a life in the public eye, you know, the swastika spray painted on the garage door, the hateful pamphlet dropped in the driveway, the threatening anonymous voicemail. You know, it's more than just upsetting and disturbing. It represents a threat to a family's safety. It represents a threat to children, to life, to property, and it undermines and can destroy the trust that we have, that our communities are open and tolerant, and based upon love and acceptance of one another, regardless of our faith. So it's a deeply worrying and corrosive and threatening dynamic in our society right now.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So, should Jewish families build a similar armor, similar to what you have developed as a public figure? Or does the government have a role in doing something to combat it?

Jon Ossoff:

Private citizens should not have to weather and endure and be subjected to hatred and harassment and bigotry. And there is a role for leaders in government. I work alongside my colleague, Senator Jackie Rosen of Nevada, on the bipartisan Joint Task Force on Antisemitism to develop solutions within Congress. 

But at this moment of increased hatred, and violence, and division along all kinds of lines in our society: religious, racial, ethnic, political, cultural, all of us, leaders and citizens, are called upon to promote and defend and strengthen the loving and trusting and tolerant bonds between neighbors and fellow citizens to make our society more resilient to the fringe, which promotes hatred, and to ensure that the United States lives up to its highest ideals as a place where, regardless of where one came from, or how one worships one can be free and safe and treated with dignity.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

In fact, you called for a federal task force, an inter-agency Task Force to address Antisemitism back in December. That task force has become a reality. And I'm curious if you feel like that task force should be working toward more of a civil society response or actual government agencies, policies to really curb the spread of antisemitism? Or maybe it's a combination of both.

Jon Ossoff:

Look, I think that there is clearly a role for leaders in government and elected officials to promote and strengthen policies and ideals that defend the public against hate crimes, against violence, against harassment. And this also has to be a broader effort shared by leaders in all fields, business leaders, faith leaders, civic leaders, community leaders, and every ordinary citizen. 

The reality is that despite how hateful and divided the public discourse can seem, and is, and despite the alarming and dangerous rise in antisemitism, and various forms of hatred, most people are deeply good. Most people are kind. Most people cherish the American ideals of equal justice, freedom of religion, and the basic idea that this is a place where people from all kinds of family backgrounds coexist and live together as Americans not on the basis of one religious creed or racial identity or national origin, but on the basis of commitment to our country's fundamental values. And I think we all have a role to play in defending and lifting up that vision of our society at a time when there is so much hate in the political and cultural and social discussion.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

You interned in high school for the late Congressman John Lewis of blessed memory, a longtime dear friend of AJC. What is the direction of the relationship between black and Jewish communities in America? Where are the points of tension, the points of promising engagement? Where do we go from here?

Jon Ossoff:

You know, sort of an extraordinary 24 hours in Georgia's history and US History: January 5, to January 6, of 2021. On January 5, the state of Georgia, and you know, our complex history, as both the cradle of the Civil Rights Movement and the heart of the Old Confederacy, elected to the US Senate, the 33 year old Jewish son of an immigrant, and a black pastor, who holds the same pulpit that Dr. King did at Ebenezer Baptist Church. The first black senator in Georgia's history, the first Jewish Senator in Georgia's history, the first Jew elected to the Senate from the deep south since 1878. 

And that is a powerful testament to what I was describing earlier that, you know, despite the level of hatred and division that we see in our public life, this country has come so far in terms of tolerance. But it wasn't 12 hours later, that the US Capitol was being ransacked by a hateful and violent mob. In some cases, sporting neo-Nazi and Confederate symbols, who tried to use violence, to prevent the peaceful transfer of power in our democracy, a core process in our constitutional system. 

And so while what happened on January 5 demonstrated how far we have come, what happened the next day demonstrated the reality of the very real and present threat to those values. I mentioned that I was sworn in with, in my jacket pocket, the ship's manifests documenting my great grandparents' arrivals at Ellis Island. 2

I was also sworn in on the Tanach that had belonged to Rabbi Jacob Rothschild, who had been the longtime rabbi at the temple, the Atlanta synagogue that I attended growing up, and where I was Bar Mitzvahed. And the temple in 1958 was bombed by the Klan in retaliation for Rabbi Rothschild's alliance with Dr. King and his denunciation of segregation. And I was sworn in on that Tanach because, of course of the special role that that synagogue had played in my upbringing, but also because of the values that it represented as a possession of Rabbi Rothschild's at the moment when Senator Warnock and I had been elected. 

And since Congressman Lewis had been a key mentor in my life, and I, so well recall that one of the first things he ever explained to me in great detail, when we sat down together, was the historic alliance between blacks and Jews in the civil rights movement, how he had marched alongside rabbis and Jews who had come to the south in the Freedom Summer to demand civil rights and voting rights. And, you know, that's a legacy of solidarity between two peoples who have had very different, but both long-term struggles against hatred, genocide. And I think it's a bond that needs to be nourished and strengthened.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Do you see obstacles in the way of that?

Jon Ossoff:

Look in Georgia, the Jewish and black communities love one another, work closely together. And there is always room for growth. And so Manya in closing, I have to run in vote on the floor of the Senate in just a moment. I just want to, if I might, take this opportunity to reiterate what I said earlier, but at a moment like this, when there is hatred and violence, threatening and in the air, and on the ground, in reality. And when Jewish families and many American families of various minority backgrounds feel threatened by the rise in hate crimes, and religious, racial, ethnic, and cultural hatred, it's our shared obligation to make real a country that lives up to America's highest ideals. 

And I believe that we can, and we will, by pulling together and believing in that and working together to defend what's best about the United States. I really appreciate the opportunity to spend some time with you. And thank you for the work you do, getting information out there and connecting Jews across the country through this podcast. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Wonderful. Thank you so much, Senator. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jon Ossoff:

Thank you, take care.

To continue our Jewish American Heritage Month celebrations, guest host Laura Shaw Frank, AJC's director of William Petschek Contemporary Jewish Life, speaks with Chanie Apfelbaum, author of the popular food blog Busy in Brooklyn. Chanie joins us to discuss her new cookbook, "Totally Kosher," the intersection of Jewish culture and food, and the future of kosher cuisine. She also shares how the murder of her brother, Ari Halberstam, who was killed in a 1994 terrorist attack on the Brooklyn Bridge, has inspired her career.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

____

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Chanie Apfelbaum

____

Show Notes:

Take our quiz:

• Jewish American Heritage Month Quiz:

Test your knowledge of the rich culture and heritage of the Jewish people and their many contributions to our nation! Start now.

Read:

• What is Jewish American Heritage Month?

• Jewish American Heritage Month Resources

• Faces of American Jewry

• Amazing Jewish Americans

Listen:

• 8 of the Best Jewish Podcasts Right Now

• AJC CEO Ted Deutch on the Importance of Jewish American Heritage Month

• From Israel: AJC's Avital Leibovich Breaks Down Latest Gaza Escalation

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Chanie Apfelbaum

Manya Brachear Pashman:

People of the Pod is celebrating Jewish American Heritage Month by devoting all our May episodes to what makes us Jewish and proud -- food, music, and our mission to repair the world. Last week you heard from AJC CEO Ted Deutch about why we should set aside a month to celebrate. This week nods to our obsession with food. 

And for that, I'll turn it over to my guest co-host, Laura Shaw Frank, AJC's Director of Contemporary Jewish Life. Laura, the mic is yours.

Laura Shaw Frank:

Thanks, Manya. Happy Jewish American Heritage Month! 

As we celebrate Jewish American culture and history this month, it feels like we would be quite remiss if we didn't spend some time talking about Jewish food. Food plays an enormous role in Jewish tradition and culture. Jews have foods linked to particular Jewish holidays and of course Shabbat, ethnic foods linked to particular places where Jews lived, and of course, lots of Jews, myself included, keep kosher, follow the laws of Kashrut, which deeply influences the way we cook and eat. 

I think I'd be pretty safe in saying that Jewish food is really important in Jewish life. Not surprisingly, statistics bear this out. In the Pew Survey of Jewish Americans in 2020 over 70% of American Jews, young and old alike, reported cooking or eating traditional Jewish foods. Which is why I'm so excited to be joined by today's guest, Chanie Apfelbaum. Chanie is a food writer and photographer whose blog "Busy in Brooklyn" is chock full of delectable recipes and beautiful pictures of amazing Jewish foods. Her newest cookbook, Totally Kosher, hit bookstores in March 2023. Chanie, welcome to People of the Pod.

Chanie Apfelbaum:

Thanks so much for having me.

Laura Shaw Frank:

I'm thrilled to have you and really thrilled to talk to you about your new cookbook. So before we get into that, though, let's take a step backward. How did you get into kosher cooking? 

Chanie Apfelbaum:

Well, I was born Jewish. That's the first step, always. I always say– learning your way around the kitchen is just a rite of passage when you get married. And being a Jewish housewife, obviously, we have, you know, Shabbat dinner every week, and so many holidays, and Jews are always just celebrating around food. I actually never stepped foot in the kitchen before I got married, never really helped my mom, my older sister used to help with cooking. It just looked like a chore to me. I am a very creative soul, very artistic. And it just seemed like a whole lot of rules. And I just wasn't interested. And then I got married. And I would call my mother every Friday and like, how do I make gefilte fish and potato kugel, and chicken soup. And I started hosting a lot. And people started asking me for my recipes. And I realized that I kind of had a knack for presentation. Because I've always been artistic. And you know, like composition and things like that. And my food always was presented nicely and looked beautiful. So it kind of got me you know, a little bit interested, piqued my interest. And I realized that it could be a way for me to explore my creative side. 

So I I started watching The Food Network a lot. And I subscribed to Bon Appetit Magazine, and started looking at cookbooks. And then when I had my third child, I didn't want to really work outside the house anymore. So I was like, What should I do with myself, I'm not the type of person that could just be a stay at home mom, I would lose my mind. So I was like, Okay, I'm gonna start a blog. And there really weren't any food blogs and no kosher food blogs. 

This is back in 2011. There was Smitten Kitchen, there was Pioneer Woman, those are both pioneers in the blogging world, in general. And there definitely weren't any kosher blogs. And I just, you know, I started my blog. And like I said, I wasn't cooking, you know, the traditional Jewish, heimish Ashkenazi food that I grew up with. Talking a little about being a mom. I had my crochet projects on there. And it was just like my place to get creative and have an outlet. And then feedback really started pouring in, everything I was posting, people were so interested. It didn't exist in the kosher world. 

And despite not being a big foodie, I just continued to just do my thing and taking terrible pictures in the yellow light of my kitchen island, on automatic, with my terrible camera. And over time, just my food started to evolve, my photography started to evolve. 

And fast-forward a couple of years, I went to a kosher culinary school, which really helped me kind of opened my mind to new flavors, which I was I think stuck a little bit in the Ashkenazi palate of paprika and garlic powder, as I like to say, and just tried all these Indian food and Thai food and all these flavors that I literally never ever experienced. And it just blew my mind open in so many ways. 

Being creative, a few of my friends kind of started blogs around the same time. And every time a holiday would come around, it was like who's going to come up with the coolest latke or the coolest humentasch, or the most creative donut. So it really pushed my competitive side and also my creative side. And I just started really thinking outside the box and doing a lot of these cool twists on tradition and fusion recipes and caught a lot of attention in mainstream media and everything went from there, I guess.

Laura Shaw Frank:

That's amazing. I want to pick up on one thing that you said. You said when you started blogging that so many people got in touch with you. And you were obviously bringing them content that they hadn't seen before. What do you think was missing from the conversations around kosher food before you entered the space? I mean, I'll just you know, tell you when I got married, everyone got the Spice and Spirit cookbook from Lubavitch. I still use it, by the way. It's a fantastic cookbook. It's a more traditional cookbook. And so tell us a little bit about what did you bring that was different to kosher cooking?

Chanie Apfelbaum:

You know what, there's one story that sticks out in my mind that really, because I've always been this person that picks up hobbies along the way, like every creative thing. I'm knitting, I'm  crocheting. I'm scrapbooking, kind of all these type of things. I pick up a hobby, I do it for a couple of months and then I kind of let it go. So I always asked myself, like, what was it about food blogging that really stuck for me, and I think that I realized the power of it. 

One year, I made this recipe for the nine days when we don't eat meat, you know, between before Tisha B'Av, some people have accustomed not to eat any meat recipes, because it's a time of mourning, it's a serious time before the anniversary of the destruction of the Holy Temple. So wine and meat are more celebratory things that we eat. So those are restricted for nine days before Tisha B'av. 

So I made this recipe for Chili Pie in Jars. And it was a vegetarian chili, a layer of cheddar cheese, and cornbread, and you bake it in a mason jar in the oven. So each person has basically their own pie.

So I made this recipe and I put it in on my blog, and this is before Instagram, can't DM somebody a picture, it's before smartphones, you can't just take a picture on your smartphone. So somebody took out their digital camera, took a picture of their families sitting around the table, everyone's holding their own mason jar, and like, took the SD card out, put it in their laptop and sent me an email. This is early days of my blog.

I get this picture. I see a whole family sitting around the table eating my recipe and I'm like, oh my god,  how powerful is this, that I have the opportunity to bring families around the table, it is so special. 

And I think that that's something that really stuck with me through all my years of blogging and really at the core, for me, what keeps me going because I realize the power of food. Especially, as a proud Jew, to celebrate our traditions through food, because, thank God through my platform, I get messages from people–someone sent me a message from literally Zimbabwe making Challah for the first time. It's just so special to me. 

So, obviously, as a mom of five, I'm always cooking dinner, and it can feel like a chore. I get cooking fatigue like everybody else. And cooking Shabbat dinner every week. I always say in the main world, they make this big deal about Thanksgiving, you know, you have to plan your menu from Sunday, and then your shopping list from Tuesday and all that but like we literally have Thanksgiving every Friday night. It's a three course or four course meal sometimes. So yeah, I get the cooking fatigue. 

And for me, I want to show people how to bring the love back in the kitchen. You know, how food can be more than just a way of sustaining ourselves, it could be a way of celebrating our Jewishness, it could be a way of bringing our family around the table, it could be a way of

getting pleasure out of life. Food can be so delicious, and it can open your eyes and experience global cuisine. That's so cool and amazing. So I had that aha moment for myself, and I want other people to have it too.

Laura Shaw Frank:

That's amazing. I love that. So what you're really saying is that food and culture are really intertwined with one another. And you gave this example of the nine days before the Jewish fast day of Tisha B'Av, which takes place in the summertime, when it's traditional among religious Jews to not eat meat and wine and talking about sort of adjusting recipes. Could you give us a couple of other examples of ways that you see sort of Jewish history, Jewish culture, Jewish tradition embedded in food?

Chanie Apfelbaum:

Look at the holidays, right, Rosh Hashanah, we have a lot of symbolic foods. Most people know of apple and honey, but there are actually a whole range of symbolic foods that we eat. The actual names and Hebrew of those foods, point to different things that we want for our year,like we eat a fish head because we want to be like a head and not a tail.

For me that really helped me kind of zone in on what is my niche here, right? I am a kosher food blogger, but how do I define my skill or who I am because every blogger kind of has their thing. And for me a lot of it is centered around the holidays because first of all for me like I have so many beautiful memories growing up. 

My mother is very much a traditional Ashkenazi cook, making kugel and gefilte fish and cholent and matza ball soup. She doesn't veer away from that. Those are the dishes that I grew up on and they're so nostalgic for me and there's a place for that. Our home was always open, we had so many guests. I actually grew up in Crown Heights.

So I really zone in a lot on holiday foods, but putting my own spin on it, because I feel like people want something fresh and new and exciting. And I definitely think there's a place for the traditional foods. You want to mix it up and have a little bit something fresh and new and something old, that's great.

We're lucky that we have that core of our heritage and our traditions throughout the year with so many Jewish holidays that allow us to get together, with family, with friends, and celebrate our Jewishness.

Laura Shaw Frank:

So, my husband and my three sons are all vegan. 

Chanie Apfelbaum:

Oh, wow.

Laura Shaw Frank:

My daughter and I are not – but my husband and my three sons are vegan. As I was thinking about interviewing you, I was thinking about how kosher cooking is always intertwined with the places that it's located in and the time in which it's occurring.

Do you feel like your cooking has been influenced by the recent trends toward vegetarian and vegan and more plant based eating?

Chanie Apfelbaum:

I definitely, just as someone who grew up eating a lot of heavy Ashkenazi food. Being in the food world, seeing what's out there. Besides for the fact that it's trendy. I feel like after Shabbat, I want to break from meat and animal protein. I mean, we're eating fish, we're usually having three courses. We're having fish, we're having chicken soup or having some kind of meat or chicken. Sunday we're usually having leftovers because there's just so much food from Shabbat. So come Monday we do in my house–in my first cookbook, Millennial Kosher, which came out in 2018. I had a Meatless Meals chapter. And that was really new for any kosher cookbook. You don't find it, you find definitely very heavy meat chapters. But it was important to me because I instituted that in my house many years ago. And I have it in this book as well.

And I got so much amazing feedback because there's a lot of people out there who don't eat meat. There's a lot of vegetarians. There's a lot of vegans. And they were so happy that I was bringing that to the kosher world, and of course wanted to bring it again. And also my kids love it. Like come Monday they know it's Meatless Monday in my house. God forbid I didn't have time to think of something and I bring chicken they're like, What, what's going on here? Ma, it's Meatless Monday. It's like a rule. So I include this in the book where I talk about the way I structure my week because it really helped me kind of take the guesswork out of what am I making for dinner.

I have a loose framework, while still allowing me the possibility to be creative because I love you know, playing Chopped with my kids, with whatever's in my fridge or my pantry. I want the possibility to be creative but I still need a little bit of framework. 

So Sunday's we'll have leftovers if there's no leftovers, we'll do a barbecue or sometimes a restaurant if we're out for the day. But Monday's Meatless, Tuesdays is beef. Wednesdays is chicken, Thursdays is dairy. Shabbos is Friday night, it's always a little bit different. And then, Saturday night is eggs. And it gives me the base protein, I know what I'm working off of and then from that I can kind of play around. And I think that really helps people that are like so overwhelmed with the idea of what am I making for dinner? You wake up on a Tuesday morning, you know, it's meat day, okay, I got to take out some kind of meat from the freezer. I'll figure out what I'm doing for later. Maybe I'll make tacos. Maybe I'll make spaghetti Bolognese maybe, you know, maybe I'll make burgers, but you took the meat out, you know.

But going back to your question. So you know, Mondays is meatless in my house and we're a big bean family. My kids love beans. One of their favorite dinners are my refried bean tacos that are my first book. I have these amazing smashed falafel burgers in this book. Like I said, we love beans, I do curries I do, Falafel I do. Once in a while I'll try and play around with tofu. My kids don't love it too much. Tempe is something - I have tempe shawarma in the book which is really amazing. 

Let's not forget to mention plant based beef which I think totally revolutionized the kosher experience because when can we ever make you know, meat and dairy together because that's one of the basic rules within the kosher kitchen. You can't mix meat and dairy together in the same dish. My kids love when I make smash burgers for dinner. And I always said like, I don't love vegan dairy products if you just don't get that cheese pull, but like with the vegan meat products, with the new plant based impossible beef, it's really close to the real thing. It really is. 

Laura Shaw Frank:

We love impossible burgers in our house and I want to try that tempe shawarma.

Chanie Apfelbaum:

Oh, it's really good.

Laura Shaw Frank:

What recipe would you say was kind of the biggest surprise for you? I mean, it seems to me like you often work from traditional Jewish recipes, but seems like you also are constantly innovating and making up your own recipes. So is there a recipe that just kind of surprised yourself and couldn't believe how it turned out?

Chanie Apfelbaum:

My favorite recipe in the book is my Pad Chai. And it's kind of a Middle Eastern spin on Pad Thai, where I use harissa and silan and lime and tamarind in the sauce. It almost feels like pad thai with just that little hint of Middle Eastern flavor. Pad thai is always finished with crushed peanuts, and I put crushed bamba over the top. And it's just so fun and playful. And I also love fun names. So I love just the name of it, but it's really a reflection of, first of all my favorite flavors, like I love middle eastern food, I love Thai food, marrying them together. And it's colorful and beautiful and so flavorful. Everything I love about food, and was really inspired by the pad thai made in culinary school. And it was one of the dishes that really, really transformed my palate completely. So it's kind of an ode to that.

Laura Shaw Frank:

You're getting me very excited to go home and make dinner for the next few nights. 

Chanie Apfelbaum:

You see right there.

Laura Shaw Frank:

So your latest cookbook, Totally Kosher, is being published by Random House. And that's a really interesting thing for a kosher kind of a niche cookbook to be published by a very mainstream publisher. So I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about how it came about that you got, first of all, that you got Random House to publish your cookbook, which is amazing. Second of all, why you left the more Jewish the more orthodox publishing world.

Chanie Apfelbaum:

I'm with Clarkson Potter, one of the imprints of Penguin Random House, that's an imprint. They haven't written a kosher book in many, many, many years. Thank God, I've been in this industry for 12 years. And I already wrote a very successful book. So my name is really out there. People know me as being the kosher cook. So they did approach me to write the book, which was really an honor. I had a very good experience the first time around working with Artscroll. Artscroll is like the main Jewish distributor of and publisher of Jewish books. My book was beautiful, and their distribution is really unmatched, but it's really only in the Jewish world. they'll get your book and every Judaica shop in the world, but not in Barnes and Nobles, and not in you know, in mainstream, indie booksellers. 

I really wanted to reach a larger demographic of Jews. As a blogger, people have come to know me and my family. I wanted to put more lifestyle photos in and most Jewish publishers don't actually publish photos of women in their books, which is something that I definitely want to see change. And I put beautiful pictures of my family, me and my daughters lighting Shabbos candles which is something that like, the moment of my week that I look forward to and a special time for me that I really feel like I connect with my Jewishness. And you know, my book is dedicated and memory of my Bubbie and to my mother and to my daughters and for me, it's really about the Jewish family and Jewish pride–not just about food, but really about family and I wanted to be able to portray that through the photos in the book. So that was another of my reasons for moving mainstream.

Laura Shaw Frank:

I think it's just amazing. And I just think it's so wonderful that you are illustrating your cookbook, with pictures that are not just about Jewish pride, but also about the special pride of Jewish women and the special…you know, of course, not only women cook, you know, men cook too, I have to say, my husband cooks dinner a lot more than than I do. And kids cook and lots of different people find a lot of wonderful fulfillment in the kitchen. But, of course, we do have this very long tradition of women cooking for their families, even as we change it up today. And I just think it's beautiful that you actually intentionally use pictures of women, of your family, in your cookbook. 

Chanie Apfelbaum:

And my sons are there too.

Laura Shaw Frank:

Excellent. Let's make it a family experience. 

Chanie Apfelbaum:

Exactly, exactly.

Laura Shaw Frank:

Speaking about family experience, you've written about why it's so important to you to encourage family meals with everyone sitting around the table together, whether it's on Shabbat or holidays or even just a weekday dinner. Could you share with us why that's so important to you?

Chanie Apfelbaum:

Well, I grew up in a very open home. My mom always had guests for shabbat or holidays. I grew up on the block of 770 Eastern Parkway, Chabad Lubavitch headquarters, and our house was just always open to guests. It's something of value that was instilled in me from early on. 

And I don't know if you know this, but my brother Ari Halbersham was actually killed in a terrorist attack on the Brooklyn Bridge in 1994. That's something that I feel like, I don't think people realize, when you lose a family member in that way, it's not like, OK, you just lost your brother. But it affects the whole family, really for generations. And I think that one of the things that I lost was having those experiences around the table. And especially so many memories with my brother at the table as well. 

So for me, I find so much healing–first of all healing, but also just, I see the greatness and the power to bring families around the table. To create family memories. So many that I draw great comfort from, I want other people to be able to experience that. It's important for me to do that, also as a way to remember him and celebrate what he lived for and what he died for.

Laura Shaw Frank:

Ok, that's incredible. And it's an incredible message to all of us to be in the moment and treasure those moments around the table. 

So the last thing I want to ask you is, so you have this cookbook that's being published by a mainstream publisher. And we know that not a lot of Jews keep kosher. The percentages are not that high. Do you think your cookbook appeals beyond just a kosher audience? 

Chanie Apfelbaum:

Well, I'll tell you that I have a lot of–forget about non- kosher keeping. I have a lot of non-Jewish followers on Instagram that buy my book, because they just like my style of cooking. I know it's called Totally Kosher. And obviously, it's a celebration of kosher and celebration of our Jewish heritage, and our customs and traditions, but at the same time, it's just good food, it's just good food, despite it being kosher, and really, I really want to break that stigma that there is about kosher food - that kosher food is brown, and it is brown. You know, like I can't take it away. Matzah ball soup is beige, and gefilte fish is beige, and potato kugel's beige, and brisket's brown. And you know, there's a reason for the stereotype. 

Laura Shaw Frank:

Cholent's brown too.

Chanie Apfelbaum:

It is. And if you look through my book, one thing that will pop out at you is how colorful the food is, and how beautiful the food is. And like I said earlier, I came to food by means of artistry. They say people eat with their eyes first. And it has changed and I think in the mainstream world, they haven't quite realized how kosher has evolved. I mean, there's so many different restaurants, kosher restaurants now, that celebrate different global cuisines. There's a Peruvian Japanese restaurant in the city, there's a Georgian restaurant in Queens. It's not just your Bubbie's stuffed cabbage anymore. And I want, like I said, the stigma to change and make waves in the mainstream world to see kosher a little bit differently.

Laura Shaw Frank:

Well, I'm for one very excited to start making some recipes from Totally Kosher. And I just want to thank you, Chanie, so much for coming to join us on People of the Pod. I think that you are bringing such a fresh take. And such a warmth, such a deep sense of Jewish culture and peoplehood, and family, and love to your work. And it's really more than just about kosher cooking. It's really about something much bigger. And I just want to thank you for that. So thanks so much for joining us today and I know we're gonna have a lot of listeners going to buy your cookbook. 

Chanie Apfelbaum:

Thank you for having me.

In a special breaking news edition, Lt. Col. (res.) Avital Leibovich, director of AJC Jerusalem, joins us to break down Israel's Operation Shield and Arrow and the threat posed by the Iranian-backed terror group Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which has fired over 500 rockets towards Israel since Tuesday. Leibovich also provides an update on how Israelis are coping with the latest escalation and efforts being made towards a ceasefire. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

___

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Avital Leibovich

___

Show Notes:

Take action:

Urge Congress to Stand with Israel Against Terrorism

Read:

• What to Know About the Gaza Strip, Terrorist Rocket Attacks, and More

• 5 Things You Need to Know About Israel's Iron Dome Defense System and Those Who Voted Against It

Listen:

• Israel at 75: 7 Things You Should Know About Israel:

Listen to these seven episodes of AJC's People of the Pod featuring leading Israeli and American scholars, experts, and influencers that will help you learn more about the complexities, triumphs, and challenges facing Israel today.

• AJC CEO Ted Deutch on the Importance of Jewish American Heritage Month:

This May, AJC is proud to celebrate Jewish American Heritage Month and the countless contributions that Jewish Americans have made as patriotic citizens, creative artists, brilliant scientists, and star athletes. To kick things off, we're joined by AJC CEO Ted Deutch to hear his reflections on his first several months at AJC, what he's looking forward to at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, and how he's marking Jewish American Heritage Month.

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Avital Leibovich

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Welcome to a special breaking news edition of People of the Pod to bring our listeners up to date on what's going on in Israel. Joining me is Lieutenant Colonel Avital Leibovich, Director of AJC Jerusalem. Avital, welcome, and I hope you are safe. But how are you doing? Tell me.

Avital Leibovich:  

Thank you. It's an opportunity for me to be here with you today and to share from the ground our experiences here in Israel. This is already the third day of the operation. There's tension in the air, but I think that our resilience as Israelis is quite strong. And I'm sure we will overcome this situation as we have in the past.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So what is going on there–who is firing the rockets that are now falling on Israel?

Avital Leibovich:   

So the operation is directed towards the Islamic Jihad in Gaza. Islamic Jihad in Gaza is the smaller of two terror groups in Gaza. It's backed and funded and directed by Iran. And its charter is pretty clear, I would say. Basically, the organization believes that Israel has no right to exist. And in order to make sure that we will not exist, Iran is funding its military capabilities. They have managed to build an arsenal of rockets, of mortars, of drones. They have managed to train soldiers, militants in order to conduct anti-Israeli operations. 

And Israel decided to initiate an operation, following two events. The first event was a week ago, where over 100 rockets were fired by this organization, the Islamic Jihad, within 24 hours, towards Israel. And the second event actually took place on Pesach, on Passover, in which 34 rockets were fired from Lebanon within 10 minutes by factions of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad in Lebanon. So this was an opportunity to make sure that Israel is preventing further escalation and basically defending its people.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So where's Hamas in all of this?

Avital Leibovich:   

So Hamas has in the past, decided to actually sit quietly and not intervene. And this is common. We've seen this in the operation last year, we've seen this in the operation two years ago. And you may want to ask what the reason for Hamas sitting back and the reason is that Hamas has a lot to lose. Currently, Israel declared that it's only looking to target Islamic Jihad targets, namely not Hamas targets. And Hamas understands that if it will join the celebration of Islamic Jihad, then the price Hamas will pay will be very, very high, for one. 

There are 18,000 Palestinian workers entering Israel from Gaza on a daily basis. These kinds of workers bringing salaries back home, actually move some sort of an economic cycle inside the Gaza Strip, and the shopping power is stronger and stronger by these workers. If Hamas will join the operation, then obviously, Israel will close the border and will not allow these workers to enter. And additionally, I'll remind our listeners that Hamas is still renovating Gaza from previous operations. So it would be quite serious from their perspective, to stop the renovation and then create further damage. Because as you know, Hamas and Islamic Jihads' arsenal of weapons are very much inside densely populated areas.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So what are we seeing in terms of – is the Iron Dome doing its job of protecting Israelis?

Avital Leibovich:   

So I would say thank God for the Iron Dome, I would say thank God for the very strong and strategic partnership Israel has with the US, which is very highly valued here. The Iron Dome is basically saving their lives with a whopping success rate of 90%, the Israeli people know that there's something in the sky that will be able to protect them. There are thousands of people that have spent the last three days in shelters, their spirit is quite broken. Because sitting in a shelter, whether you're a four year old child or a 30 year old mum, and hearing constantly sounds of explosions and jets flying in the air, this is not a normal kind of atmosphere. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

By the time this airs, perhaps a ceasefire will be reached, wouldn't that be a blessing? Are you optimistic that that will happen?

Avital Leibovich:  

You know, living in the Middle East, you have to be optimistic in routine times, in emergency times. Talks of a ceasefire began yesterday. But we have to keep in mind that there is a lot of fake news, a lot of false publications. And I don't see an end to the current situation, the next couple of hours, maybe in another 24 to 48 hours. And I'm just getting a report that there was a direct hit of a building in Rehovot, which is a city maybe half an hour from here, half an hour from Tel Aviv. So we're not there quite yet. I do want to mention, in this context, Egypt's role. Media has put a focus on Saudi Arabia's role in the region. But we must not forget that Egypt is a strong partner. And this is the partner who actually mediates between Israel and the different terror groups in Gaza. They have an important role. Israel respects this role. And we should not forget this very, very significant actor in our region.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Well Avital, thank you for that addendum and thank you for joining us. I really hope that you're able to stay safe and that we are talking about a ceasefire very soon.

Avital Leibovich:  

Thank you for the opportunity. 

This May, AJC is proud to celebrate Jewish American Heritage Month and the countless contributions that Jewish Americans have made as patriotic citizens, creative artists, brilliant scientists, and star athletes. To kick things off, we're joined by AJC CEO Ted Deutch to hear his reflections on his first several months at AJC, what he's looking forward to at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, and how he's marking Jewish American Heritage Month. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

___

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Ted Deutch

___

Show Notes:

Learn more at: AJC.org/JewishAmericanHeritageMonth

Join us in Tel Aviv at AJC Global Forum 2023: AJC.org/GlobalForum

Sign up for AJC CEO Ted Deutch's Video Newsletter: Receive "Ten from Ted," the biweekly video newsletter from AJC CEO Ted Deutch where he'll share ten major highlights in the work he and American Jewish Committee (AJC) are doing to make this world safer for the Jewish people and Israel. 

Take our quiz:

• Jewish American Heritage Month Quiz:

Test your knowledge of the rich culture and heritage of the Jewish people and their many contributions to our nation! Start now.

Listen:

• Israel at 75: 7 Things You Should Know About Israel:

Listen to these seven episodes of AJC's People of the Pod featuring leading Israeli and American scholars, experts, and influencers that will help you learn more about the complexities, triumphs, and challenges facing Israel today.

• How Playing Baseball With Team Israel Transformed Ryan Lavarnway's Life:

In celebration of Israel's 75th birthday, guest host Dov Wilker, AJC's Atlanta director, sits down with retired Major League Baseball catcher Ryan Lavarnway, who played for Team Israel in the World Baseball Classic and the Olympics. Lavarnway reflected on the Jewish pride he felt representing Israel on the international stage, how he has dealt with the antisemitism in his career, and the importance of building connections between the Jewish state and the Diaspora.

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Ted Deutch:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

This May, AJC is proud to celebrate Jewish American Heritage Month and the countless contributions that Jewish Americans have made as patriotic citizens, creative artists, brilliant scientists, lightning fast athletes, one of whom we heard from last week. Returning to the studio to help us kick off the celebration is AJC's CEO, Ted Deutch. Ted, welcome back to People of the Pod. 

Ted Deutch:

It's great to be back. Thanks, Manya.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So I want to start with a progress report. You have been CEO now for I'm going to count on my fingers here October, November, December -seven months, now? 

Ted Deutch:

Now, you've got to get onto your second hand.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Which means this time last year, you were still a congressman. So what's remarkably different about your life now, your mission and your day to day approach to that mission?

Ted Deutch:

Well, the day to day work is very different. And I'd start with the most obvious: I came from a place that was, by definition, political, everything about it was driven by politics. I worked really hard to focus on the issues that mattered to me and my community. But there were always political considerations. Now, as the CEO of American Jewish Committee, I have the incredible honor of spending everyday working with a supremely talented team here at AJC, remarkable volunteers and lay leaders with one mission, and that's to think about how we can do more to enhance the well being of the Jewish people and Israel and advance democratic values. And every issue I work on, I'm passionate about, and it matters to me, it matters to my core. It affects who I am, and my family and my community. And that's a big difference. And it's just a big privilege to be able to spend my days this way now.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So what have some of the milestones been so far?

Ted Deutch:

AJC as the global advocacy organization for the Jewish people has been doing incredible work in the United States and all around the world for more than a century. But to bring those two things together, as we did in our advocacy, with the Biden administration, to urge them to create a national action plan to combat antisemitism, seeing them move forward, and announce that plan and then bringing to the White House special envoys to combat antisemitism from around the world that we had helped create. And as we worked in other countries, as they prepared their own action plans to confront anti semitism and foster Jewish life, this was an opportunity to bring their experiences together so that they could share their insight into what's worked and what hasn't in their own countries. So that our own administration can come up with something meaningful as we seek to strike back against antisemitism. That is something that I'm really proud of. And being able to travel around the country and around the world as I have to meet with Jewish communities, in all parts of America and all corners of the world and to be reminded of just how much we have in common. 

It sounds obvious and probably silly to say, but when you're when you're speaking with university students in Paris and you realize that the things that they're focused on, the challenges they face and antisemitism and anti-Israel sentiment that they deal with is not unlike what our campus leaders in America are dealing with and, and knowing that we can bring them together as we will at our Global Forum. Or spending time with communities from across Latin America. And when we all got together in Mexico City, to talk about the ways to ensure a strong future for the Jewish community. And meeting LFT students, our high school program, Leaders for Tomorrow, the high school students that we're helping to train to be the leaders of the next generation, and be inspired by by what they've already taken from this program, whether it's in Atlanta in Chicago, or any of the other places that I've had the opportunity to travel. There's a lot that we've done, there's a lot that I'm really excited about. And as you point out, just barely been seven months.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Shortly after you began, there was kind of a torrent of antisemitic incidents, rhetoric that was on social media, in the celebrity world. And I'm curious if that kind of took you aback because it happened right after you started your position. And do you feel like you've made some progress in that sphere, as well, in terms of educating celebrities, creative artists, and the like?

Ted Deutch:

It happened immediately after almost as if it were planned to happen right when I started. But, I've been clear about this, as horrific as that was- there was a national conversation that started that I don't remember seeing before and to have the chance to talk about the Jewish community and antisemitism and the issues that AJC works on, on national television on a regular basis, and help elevate the importance of these issues for the broader community was an important moment for me and for AJC, and for the Jewish community to really focus on what we do, and the fact that our call to action against antisemitism is a document that the rest of the country can look to Jews and non-Jews alike for ways that they can be involved to combat antisemitism. 

And since all of this happened, and since we've found ourselves in the middle of this conversation, there has been a real interest in looking at all the ways that government and education and law enforcement and corporate America and social media can all play their part. And yes, there's a special opportunity for the creative community. 

I was in Los Angeles recently with Doug Emhoff, with the second gentleman, and we did a program for executives and agents and music and studio executives, to talk about antisemitism, the things that that they can do, all with the understanding that content really drives so much of what we think about in our country, and we want people to be aware of this rising antisemitism and make sure that there's an understanding as well of what the Jewish community is and what the Jewish community isn't, and to be careful not to advance antisemitic tropes and to reflect the diversity of the Jewish community and to acknowledge the great diversity within Israel. These are, these are conversations that are taking place there, they're taking place with media, I've met with a number of media outlets, again, just to make sure that some of these issues that we know are so challenging and sometimes complicated, deserve a full airing, and we need to start with what is true about our community and about the things we care about. We've worked hard to accomplish that.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

And I just just want to remind listeners that it's Kanye West. It was the comments from Kanye West that just kept coming. And yeah, you're right. It was days after you started your job that we were addressing that. 

It was Congress that named the month of May Jewish American Heritage Month or JAHM, as we affectionately call it around here. How did you celebrate it on Capitol Hill?

Ted Deutch:

Well, there were receptions and we usually made a statement in Congress. We looked for opportunities to help elevate the issue. This is an important opportunity for the community. It happens every May. Most people I'm not embarrassed to say–although I will be next year if this is still the case. But I'm not embarrassed to say that most people didn't know that May was Jewish American Heritage Month. They're obviously familiar with the steps Congress took to create Black History Month and Women's History Month and so many others. But here we are at this moment. And Congress, when I was a member of Congress, we tried to, to remind people what was happening. But there's so much more and this year, in particular, in light of what the community has been facing, the timing of Jewish American Heritage Month is really important. And it's something that we're really trying to take advantage of, frankly.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So now how do you celebrate it as you lead a non Jewish nonprofit? Is that very different, what you're experiencing this year?

Ted Deutch:

Well, it is. And again, it means I get to spend a lot of my time thinking about all of the ways that we can draw people's attention to this month. It gives me a chance to think about the prominent Jewish Americans who contribute to our country and in so many ways, that helps strengthen it. And for us here at AJC, we've worked really hard, focusing specifically at the outset of this month, on elected officials, state, local, and federal, and business leaders just to come in and acknowledge Jewish American Heritage Month and look for their own ways to recognize the contributions that Jewish Americans have made to our country. And we have a resource to do that. It's AJC.org/JewishAmericanHeritageMonth, of all things, which helps elected officials know what this is and how they can be involved and tells business leaders how they can acknowledge this month and it's so important this year, especially when so much of the conversation has been about antisemitism, and about hatred. And about that really a debate that's being, a conversation is being driven by those who want to divide the country and to spread false stereotypes of conspiracy theories about Jews and the Jewish community. Here is the perfect opportunity for us to set the record straight.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So you raise an important point that the people who should be driving the conversation about Jewish American Heritage, or driving the conversation in our community should not be the antisemites, it should be the Jewish community itself. So is this month a rare opportunity, or a platform to move the needle when it comes to awareness of antisemitism? Or is that not what this month is necessarily about? I mean, why is it on the calendar?

Ted Deutch:

It is not a month about antisemitism any more than Black History Month is a month about racism. These are important milestones for our two communities to celebrate the contributions of our communities to the American story, that's what Jewish American Heritage Month is. The best way to push back against the antisemites is to marginalize them, and to give more people the opportunity to actually get to know the Jewish community–who we are, the diversity within the Jewish community. The fact that the Jewish community is not just a religion, but a people, and a culture and, and a group that has contributed so much throughout our nation's history. That's what this is really about. And by the way, it's going to have the added benefit of reducing antisemitism, because antisemitism preys on false narrative conspiracy theories, and providing facts and helping to educate people about who we really are, is the great opportunity that we have in front of us.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So I'm curious, you talked about traveling the world and spending time with Jewish communities around the globe, celebrating many Shabbats abroad. Have you encountered comparable commemorations, and time set aside for Jewish heritage in those countries? Or any heritage for that matter? I mean, Arab Americans in France or Asian Pacific Islanders in Germany.

Ted Deutch:

First, I would note that May is also AAPI Heritage Month here in the United States. And AJC is working with partners in the API community, in a number of our regions to do joint programming, because again, important contributions to American history from both of our communities. Around the world, I don't know of anything, specifically comparable. I know, in Europe, there's a Europe-wide day to acknowledge the contribution of the Jewish community. There's a Jewish culture festival in Krakow that has become fairly popular. I was in Mexico City, just recently, and I know that in Mexico and in Argentina, there are opportunities to celebrate the Jewish community. But I don't know anything quite like this. But I know that in Europe, a lot of the plans that were created to combat antisemitism also includes specific ways to foster Jewish life. And one of the ways to do that is to highlight the history of the Jewish community in each of those countries.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So why does America devote an entire month to all the many diverse heritages, ethnicities, that make up our country? Why is this an American concept?

Ted Deutch:

Well Manya, I don't know what the thinking was in moving forward with these designations. But it is, in many ways, the most American idea. This is what America is, it's who we are. It's this great collection of all different groups and faiths and nationalities, all contributing to create this remarkable country that we're so privileged to live in, a country with challenges that we can only overcome by working together. Antisemitism, by the way, one of those challenges, that it doesn't just affect the Jewish community, it affects everyone. But having specific times to pause to think about the contributions from each of those communities. When you add them all up, suddenly, you've got a year's worth of contributions from the great diversity within our country to celebrate. And I think that's the way we need to think about it. This isn't about May. This is, as you point out, about this collection of months throughout the year where we can celebrate the contributions from individual groups, which overall, reflect and contribute to the great diversity and the great successes that we've had.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

I want to switch gears, switch countries, and talk a little bit about Israel. Israel has been going through a pretty difficult few months between its internal political debate over judicial review and the ongoing threats of terrorism, just this week more rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip. What would be your message to American Jews who are concerned about what they're seeing here?

Ted Deutch:

Well, I understand the concern. Obviously, this most recent barrage of rockets is a reminder that while we're focused, and there's so much attention here in our country, to the politics in Israel, to the protests to the workings of the Knesset and the government and, whether there's going to be some sort of judicial reform, or what it looks like, to protect civil liberties and minority rights and checks and balances…while all of those conversations are taking place, 100+ rockets reminds us that we have a whole lot to be vigilant about. And Israel's security is not something that we can ever take for granted. And that it's important to note that all of those protesters in Israel, whether they're protesting, on Saturday nights, on a regular basis against judicial reform, or they were part of the big protest of people who turned out in Jerusalem to support judicial reform, all of them understand the threats that the country faces externally. And I understand concerns, I just think it's important to remember that it's, standing together in support of the country, doesn't mean that we don't have specific opinions about things that happen within the country. It doesn't mean that everyone comes at their connection to Israel the same way. But it does remind us that, being united, as rockets fall, as Israel confronts these threats is really important, not only for Israel, but I think for diaspora Jewry, as well.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

We are holding our first Global Forum under your leadership in Tel Aviv next month, on the occasion of Israel's 75th birthday. So what are you hoping participants take away from that event, especially in light of what we just discussed – the difficulties and the many, many tensions that have to be managed there?

Ted Deutch:

Well, the one thing that I know people will take away is the importance of being there. The fact that at this moment when history is being made the opportunity to be in Israel not only to focus on judicial reform and the political challenges and the security threats, but to also be in this incredibly vibrant, and diverse, and beautiful country, and to be reminded of the important place that Israel plays in the world in technology and innovation, and in humanitarian circles, and in combating climate change, and all of the ways and we go on and on, that this tiny little country is doing such remarkable things. And then all of that is continuing, even as hundreds of 1000s of people are marching in the streets. 

That's what people will take away from this. You want to be there when history is being written. You want to be part of the history that's being written now and showing up in Israel and coming together at AJC Global Forum is well, for me, clearly, it's the best way to do that.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

In other words, people should be excited about the democracy swirling all around them while they're experiencing Israel.

Ted Deutch:

I've had friends reach out to invite us to come to the protests, I've had other friends reach out to tell me that they're looking forward to talking about the challenges of the Supreme Court as it currently exists. I've told them AJC's views on the importance of where this is going and, and the importance of shared democracy between the United States and Israel. And the response, again, from everyone on whatever, wherever they are on the political spectrum in Israel is, okay, well, it's just important that you're coming. We may agree with you completely. We may disagree with you, but as American Jews, your voice matters, and this is the opportunity to share it. 

And it's the opportunity to hear directly from Israeli leaders and from global leaders who will be joining us literally from around the world, because they share in our commitment to safeguard Israel's place in the world. And it's those diplomatic efforts that help us do our work around the world, but at this moment, will allow all of us to focus on all that's happening in Israel.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Ted, thank you so much for joining us for the party, for coming to JAHM with us. And I look forward to more celebrating in Tel Aviv. Thank you so much.

Ted Deutch:

Manya, I look forward to it as well, to celebrate with you and everyone who's listening. It's going to be a remarkable trip. But remember, we still have all of JAHM ahead of us.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

May has only just begun.

Ted Deutch:

All right, happy, JAHM. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Thank you so much.

In celebration of Israel's 75th birthday, guest host Dov Wilker, AJC's Atlanta director, sits down with retired Major League Baseball catcher Ryan Lavarnway, who played for Team Israel in the World Baseball Classic and the Olympics. Lavarnway reflected on the Jewish pride he felt representing Israel on the international stage, how he has dealt with the antisemitism in his career, and the importance of building connections between the Jewish state and the Diaspora.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

__

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Ryan Lavarnway

___

Show Notes:

Watch:

• Catch the full video conversation with Ryan Lavarnway, recorded live on Yom Ha'atzmaut as part of AJC's Advocacy Anywhere 

Test your knowledge:

• Quiz: How much do you really know about Israel?

When was Israel founded? Who was the first Israeli to win a Nobel Prize? Which country was the first to recognize the State of Israel? Start the quiz!

Listen:

• Israel at 75: 7 Things You Should Know About Israel:

Listen to these seven episodes of AJC's People of the Pod featuring leading Israeli and American scholars, experts, and influencers that will help you learn more about the complexities, triumphs, and challenges facing Israel today.

• Julianna Margulies on Holocaust Education and Fighting Antisemitism:

Emmy Award-winning actress Julianna Margulies recently partnered with the New York's Museum of Jewish Heritage: A Living Memorial to the Holocaust, to help create the Holocaust Educator School Partnership. To date, the partnership has trained two university fellows to teach the history of the Holocaust to 1,700 middle and high school students in New York City Public Schools. In a poignant interview, Margulies shares her motivations for expanding the program, personal experiences of how antisemitism has affected her family, and reflections on her first visit to Israel and Yad Vashem.

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Ryan Lavarnway:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Sometimes it just makes more sense for my AJC colleagues to guest host. When it comes to sports, I always try to hand the mic to AJC Atlanta Director Dov Wilker. This week, in honor of Israel's 75th birthday, Dov sat down for a live conversation in front of a virtual audience with Major League Baseball Catcher Ryan Lavarnway, who played for Team Israel in the World Baseball Classic and the Olympics. Ryan talked to Dov about the pride he felt representing Israel on the international stage and the importance of building connections between the Jewish state and the Diaspora. I might not know a lot about baseball, but as someone about to visit Israel for the first time, Ryan's recollections and reflections brought tears to my eyes. Here's an instant replay. 

Dov Wilker:

Let's get it started in the beginning, Ryan, how did you get into baseball? And does your Judaism intertwine with that, or is that a separate story?

Ryan Lavarnway:

So, I started playing baseball when I was five years old. And my dad always played baseball, he was always doing pickup games on the weekends playing high-pitch softball, but the story of why I got started was my kindergarten teacher told my parents that I was not good at sharing, and that I should get involved in a team sport. So they signed me up about as early as I could sign up, when I was five years old. And I took to it really quick and the rest is history.

Dov Wilker:

You know, that's good advice for my seven year old who is also not very good at sharing. So I appreciate that. 

And what about the role of Judaism in your life? Was Judaism something that was important to you from an early age? Or has that sort of become more important to you as you got older?

Ryan Lavarnway:

No, it really wasn't. My mom is Jewish, and she always loved Christmas. They had a white Christmas tree in her house with blue ornaments. And my dad would describe himself as a disenchanted Catholic. So growing up, we celebrated holidays from all religions. But there was no religion involved. We celebrated just to have a nice meal together, to have a reason to give presents and celebrate or light the candles. We went through the motions. Sometimes I joke that we celebrated Hallmark holidays. 

And it wasn't until really until high school that I started to grow into my own as an adult and start to search for more. And in high school, I ended up going to temple for the first time with a high school teammate's mother who had MS and couldn't drive herself. So we kind of needed each other because I needed someone to go with, and she needed someone to drive her. And that was really my first experience. As an adult, when I started searching for more meaning behind –Why do we celebrate these holidays? And what do they mean? And where's the community that I want to be a part of?

Dov Wilker:

What state did you go to high school in?

Ryan Lavarnway:

I grew up in California, LA County, in the valley. My wife likes to make fun of me every time I talk about home, she references that SNL skit The Californians– she's like, Oh, you, you were on the one oh one and the four oh five. 

So I grew up in Southern California. A lot of Jewish players on my youth league teams, on my little league teams, you know, Bar Mitzvah season for me, you know, when you're 13, 15, in that season of your life, I had a ton of friends that were Jewish, we had a great community here. But my family, again, we were more of the Hallmark holidays.

Dov Wilker:

So when you were in high school, when sort of you started getting more into your Judaism, but also, you know, as you were playing, did you ever experience antisemitism on the field when you were younger, or even when you were older?

Ryan Lavarnway:

When I was younger, not so much. And I think the reason that I was able to kind of dodge those bullets was because my dad was Catholic, and my mom was Jewish. So as we studied the Holocaust in school, I felt, you know, and to me, I'm almost embarrassed looking back, but this is my truth. 

I would step away and I would say, Well, I'm half Catholic, so the people that were hurt and the people that were, killed in and, and antisemitism is against, that wasn't me. But then I could also step on the other side and be like, Well, I wasn't the evil villain, either. It wasn't my people that were causing all this pain. And that helps me avoid feeling, and feeling hurt by the antisemitism as a kid. But what that also did was, it kept me from feeling the benefits of the community. 

And it wasn't until later, and we can get into this, when I played for Team Israel and I fully embraced being Jewish–and publicly–that I started facing antisemitism for the first time and really internalizing it and feeling it personally. But then that was also the first time, with that came, the feeling, the sense of community and feeling like I'm your brother, and you're my brother, you're my sister, and like we're all in this together. So I feel like they go hand in hand.

Dov Wilker:

So let's dive into that, the Team Israel stuff a little bit. Your first experience with the team came about in 2017, 2016. 

Ryan Lavarnway:

16, yeah.

Dov Wilker:

16. So how did that all start? I mean, you're a Major League Baseball player, you're a world series champion, and you get a phone call from some guy who was like, hey, like, we've got this team we want to create it? Or, was it, the World Baseball Classic is gonna be a big thing and you want to find a way to be a part of it and you're a great catcher, but you might not be picked for team USA. How does this all work?

Ryan Lavarnway:

So, yeah, I got a phone call from some guy that I'd never heard of. Peter Kurtz. I don't know if it initially came through my agent or how he first got ahold of me. But I got a call in 2012. And I had just made it into the big leagues as a rookie the year before. I had like half a year of service time, still trying to prove myself and establish myself as a major leaguer. And he said, Hey, we have this Team Israel. And we play baseball, surprise, you never heard of us. Which I think was everyone's reaction. But you qualify for the team, because your mom's Jewish. So what do you think? 

And I was like, Well, what's the WBC because 10 years ago, it wasn't very popular yet, it's still growing. He's like, Well, we have to qualify to get into the tournament, because we only have one field in our whole country. And we're ranked 64th in the world. But we think we can do it. What do you think? The qualifier's in September, can you be there? 

And I was like, Well, it sounds like an amazing opportunity. Let's do it. But if I get called up again, this year, I'll be in the big leagues, so I can't be there. So September 2012, came in when I was in the big leagues. I wasn't able to go, but I had the seed planted in my mind of this, this is a possibility. This is a thing. So four years later, they just missed qualifying in 2012, they had a lead in the last inning. 

And my now best friend from this team, Josh Zeid, ended up blowing the lead. 

Flash forward four years later, 2016, I get another call, Hey, we're going to try to qualify again. We just missed it last time, we think we're really going to make it this time. Can you be there? And this time, my answer was, well, I'm probably going to be in the big leagues. But if for whatever reason I'm not, heck yeah, let's do it. And then the skies parted. It was the first year in six years, I wasn't in the big leagues in September. And I was available. And I went and played.

And what I remember, showing up, when I first got there was Josh Zeid spoke very passionately to the group about how blowing that lead four years earlier, is still eating him up inside. And it was the lowest of lows for his career and everything he had done pitching in the big leagues. That was the moment he wanted to change. And his impassioned speech really spoke to the rest of us about oh, man, this is maybe more important than we thought.

Dov Wilker:

So I want to jump back to something that you said, which I find very profound. This random person calls you and says, Hey, your mother's Jewish, you qualified to be on the team. How do you respond to that? Right? You started off by saying that you got more into your Judaism when you were in high school and but, how do you feel, what is that? And by the way, have you ever been to Israel before? Was there any sort of connection to Israel, as all of this is sort of taking place?

Ryan Lavarnway:

I had not ever been to Israel. When he first called me in 2012, my wife and I were engaged to be married. By the time 2016 came around, we had been married. My wife was raised Jewish, she had a bat mitzvah, she had been on Birthright. We had a Jewish wedding. I was more involved in the Jewish community locally in Denver, and had really embraced, on a personal level, that I'm a Jewish man, and I want to raise a Jewish family. I want to be involved in the Jewish community in Denver. I still had yet to say that publicly. 

Because playing for the Boston Red Sox, our media training, at least 10 years ago, this was before athletes branding themselves and having their own brand was really acceptable. Especially in baseball, baseball is one of the last sports to embrace that. 

So the Boston Red Sox media training involved: if anything is even potentially controversial—just keep it to yourself. The Red Sox is the brand, don't tarnish it. And Boston itself as a city is a little closed minded, I would say. I think people that know Boston could agree with this, that they're not the most forward thinking city. 

Dov Wilker:

No offense to anyone in Boston that's listening.

Ryan Lavarnway:

No, I love the city of Boston. Trust me, I love Boston. It's one of my favorite places. I still feel at home there. I've got my Red Sox World Series ring on the table right here. 

But like, I know, some of my black teammates didn't feel comfortable, and black visiting players don't feel super comfortable there. So it's just it's just the way Boston is a little bit. So I just kept to myself. 

When I announced I was going to play for Team Israel, was the first time that I really feel that it was public. And I feel maybe in a way that's the first time I dove all the way into the deep end of embracing it. Because you have to say to the world, right? If you are privately Jewish, in a sense, you could say that maybe it's–you're hiding it a little bit. Or it's just you're just not announcing it. So I finally announced it to the world. I finally experienced antisemitism for the first time in a way that I really internalized and personalized and I was really embraced by the Jewish community and it was really wonderful in that way.

Dov Wilker:

Two things --one is, AJC has a campaign that we created called Jewish and Proud. And it's something that we've been sort of pursuing as a result of the rise of antisemitism in our society. So I couldn't agree with you more. I think that that's so important. It's why, in fact, one of the reasons that I wear my kippa— one of the reasons is that I've got a hair problem in the back. But the second reason is that I feel it's an important identifier, because I'm very proud to be Jewish. And I want people to be able to know that. But I'm one of the things you just said was that, it's when you started to experience antisemitism, really publicly. So could you share a little bit about that? What was that like, or what type of experiences you might have had?

Ryan Lavarnway:

Yeah, so there was a couple of experiences that were more subtle. And it was more of people questioning, like, Oh, I didn't realize you were Jewish, or like, I didn't know that about you. And I felt like, I felt like they felt permission to express their questioning, or they felt like they had the right to have an opinion. Which ultimately, what's the difference? I'm the same exact person you've known for years. And now you think you have a different opinion about me. 

And just the fact that they even made a face or had a slight different tone when they talked to me. It made me feel like well, why? Why did something change? Why did anything have to change? 

There were more obvious experiences. Baseball is a very Christian sport, at least on the professional level. I think that we have 12 Jewish major leaguers this year, and that's a record. Out of 780  players in the major leagues, 12 are Jewish, so it's very much a minority. So every Sunday, a chaplain comes in and holds baseball chapel, in the dugout or in the clubhouse, for both teams, and they do it in English and in Spanish. So it's a really established institution within baseball. And it's great for those players. But it's not my thing. And I kind of established, 'that's not my thing,' was my go to response when I was invited, because they tried to include everybody. And one time I remember I was in Gwinnett, Georgia, the AAA team for the Braves.

Dov Wilker:

Yeah. So it's up the street from where I live right now.

Ryan Lavarnway:

Yeah. And I was invited to baseball chapel. And I said, Well, it's not my thing. And the chaplain really pushed back,  like, why wouldn't you go? And I was like, Well, I'm Jewish. So you know, I don't need to go to baseball chapel. We have our own thing on the weekend. And, he said, Well, I've dealt with heathens like you before. And I don't remember what happened with the rest of the conversation. 

But it left me feeling really awful, that he would call me that. And I honestly didn't even know what heathen meant. So I went and I looked it up in the dictionary on my phone. And I think technically, by the definition, heathen just means non-believer. But the way he said it made me feel like he was talking down to me, like I was less than and, for a supposed man of God, I didn't think that was very ethical, or I didn't really like the way he handled it. 

So small experiences like that. And then there was one other time I was in AAA, I don't remember what team I was with. But one of my teammates in the outfield was expressing some other backwards opinions about some other groups that he thought maybe I might relate to—which I didn't. And he also went on to add –also, if we're going to be friends, I'm gonna have to tell you, you're wrong at some point. Because you don't believe in Jesus Christ. And I was like, okay, guy, well, then we're just not going to be friends after this. 

So there have been experiences, some of them have been more subtle, some of them have been more obvious. In my experiences, I feel like antisemitism falls into two major categories. It's either ignorance, or it comes from hate. And I approach them in two separate ways. I think if it stems from ignorance, I try to educate them. It shouldn't have to be my job and anybody that is a Jewish person, it shouldn't have to be your job either. But if we don't do it, who will? And I think it goes the same way with anybody that is the receptor of any sort of ignorant hate, you know, whether it's black people, or gay people, anybody that experiences that, it shouldn't have to be your job to educate people. But again, if you don't, who will? So when someone makes a joke that might be hurtful or someone comes from a place of not understanding why it might be hurtful, I try to educate them, like this is where the history of that joke or the history of that ignorance comes from. 

And then in general people, they don't want to be ignorant and they don't want to be hurtful. So most of the time they back off. The other time is when it comes from hate. And I don't know if you can necessarily change people's hearts. I take one of my cues from Hank Greenberg, who was one of the more famous baseball players in history. He was a big, strong, intimidating person, he would stand up to it. And he took the approach, at least from the stories that I've heard, of, you deal with a bully, you stand up to them, and you maybe intimidate them back, and then they'll back down. And I think that's one way or the other way is, if it stems from a place of hate so much that you're in danger, then that's when you kind of try to avoid it, or you reach out to authorities in some regard. 

Dov Wilker:

Ryan, I appreciate you sharing that. Unfortunately, for me, it's not surprising to hear what you shared. And I'm sure for many in our audience, they wouldn't have expected it. And yet, it also might not be a surprise. It's also one of the reasons AJC created a tool. It's an online glossary called Translate Hate, for those experiences to be able to explain to people what the root of the antisemitism that they might be sharing comes from. I absolutely agree with you about the two types of antisemitism that you've experienced. I'm curious if you ever, did you ever talk to the other 11 Jewish players in the majors about their experiences? Or that you sort of just assume that they had similar ones? And did you ever experience it from the fans?

Ryan Lavarnway:

No, in general, a lot of most of the fans have been really supportive, or don't bring it up at all. So fan wise, it's been really, really positive. And as far as talking to other players about it, when we're with Team Israel is when I interact with the other Jewish players the most. And we're really just enjoying the experience and really positive. So any experience I speak of is really personal. And you'd have to kind of talk to them about theirs.

Dov Wilker:

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. So let's talk a little bit more about what it was like to represent Team Israel. What was it like? I mean, here you are, you've sort of done very cool things in the majors, you got to be a part of this team, this unique gathering of the diaspora Jews essentially to represent the Jewish homeland. Here we are again, on Yom Ha'atzmaut, Independence Day, talking about that. Was the team received well by the other countries in the World Baseball Classic? These are other ballplayers that, you know or were you sort of shunned aside a little bit?

Ryan Lavarnway:

So the first thing is, when I first started to play for Team Israel, I can be totally honest about this. I signed up because it was a great baseball opportunity. Playing in the World Baseball Classic was, I had never played international baseball before. So it seemed like a cool thing to do. And it would add to my baseball resume. Representing a people, a culture, and a country, it didn't even enter my mind. I didn't know what it would mean to me. So I signed up for a baseball opportunity. We played in Brooklyn in a qualifier. 

And it started to hit me when I stepped on the field with Israel across my chest. And we stepped onto the line for the national anthems before the game. And we took off our hats and we put on kippas. And it was the first time that a sports team had ever done that, or at least a baseball team had ever done that. It was really interesting. And I looked into the stands and there was–Brooklyn's a home game for for Israel, right, there was a bunch of Jews in Brooklyn, and there was a few yeshiva schools with kids with the tallit and the kippa. And it hit me that these kids have never had a team like this, where they can relate to every player on the field. 

And everything that I know about representation and how the more things you can relate to in leaders, or the more things you can relate to in role models, the more meaningful and impactful it will be for you as a young person. It really hit me that I wanted to be the person for them. I wanted to be their role model. And then it hit me again when we got to Israel, because after we qualified for the tournament, they brought us to Israel and filmed a documentary about it. They did a great job. I don't get five cents if you download it on Amazon but check it out because they did a great job. 

Going to Israel really, really it hit home for me. We got to Israel and we had a practice on the only field in the country. And I have this sense of meaning that's growing and my heart is expanding another size like the Grinch on Christmas, when his heart grows two sizes. And after our practice, we have a press conference with the Israeli media. And they let us have it. They were initially not excited to have us represent them. They pushed back really hard. Who are you to represent us? We don't even play baseball, you guys are outsiders. Who do you think you are? And we were all like, Oh, my God, like, we thought we would be at this press conference, and it was going to be a love fest where they were so happy that we made it into the tournament. And that was very much not the case. 

So that gave us pause a little bit. But we also appreciated that they didn't just accept us because we were winners. They wanted us to prove it, like prove that you mean it and prove that you're gonna represent us well. So we went to Seoul, South Korea was the first round. And we started to win. And we counted out before we started, I don't know if you remember the article that ESPN posted. They called us the Jamaican bobsled team of baseball, has-beens, wannabes, never-weres, that perfectly fulfill the role of "team that has no business being there, and somehow found a way to win minus, they haven't won yet." That was what the article said. 

And that was maybe the best thing that ever happened to us because we got a very, very solid collective chip on our shoulders. And we had a lot of players that felt like maybe they had been overlooked in their careers or hadn't got the opportunity or hadn't performed to their potential. So we had a lot of players that already had a chip on their shoulder. And now as a group, we had one. So we went out there, and we started to win. And we beat Korea, and we beat Taiwan, and we beat the Netherlands. And everybody's now freaking out. We're a Cinderella story. And the other teams were great. The other teams, you know, you qualified for Israel, whatever. 

We move on to Tokyo. And as we advance to the second round, now the Israeli media is like, we're so happy you're representing us. Thank you for being respectful and giving positive energy on the worldwide stage and for playing so great. And now we have this positive thing. So the Israel media finally embraced us, as we continued to send the message that we want it to grow the game within Israel, not just win, and not just say, wham bam, Thank you, ma'am, we're out of here. But we all had the intention to be around for a while. 

And then we beat Cuba. And the Cuban media was pissed. And I think they were probably embarrassed that they lost. And that was the first time that another country's media had been like, well, you guys are all American. You guys are America. American's B-team. And that was the first time we really got pushed back. But realistically, nobody on Team Israel would have made America's B-team or America's C-team or America's D-team or E-team or F-team. Like us we were a collection of has-beens, never-weres and wannabes that qualified for Israel. And then most of that team from 2017 signed up for the Olympics and we established Israeli citizenship and went back to Israel a second time. 

And every time that we've been to Israel, we make the commitment to grow the game we go, and we host clinics for the youth. Most of the prize money for the team has gone to building new fields or funding international tournament travel for the youth. And participation in baseball in Israel has doubled since the first time I wore an Israeli uniform.

Dov Wilker:

There's so much that was said. I'm so grateful that you shared all of that.

Ryan Lavarnway:

I have no idea if I answered your question. 

Dov Wilker:

I'm not even sure what my question was anymore. So it's the perfect answer. By being members of the Israeli team at the Olympics, did the Israeli Olympic Committee do anything to share about the massacre of the 72 Olympics? Was that at all a part of sort of, in general, was there sort of learning, teaching, touring that that Israel did, that the the institutions there to help you all sort of have a better understanding if you'd never been there before, sort of different challenges and things like that on the global scale? 

Ryan Lavarnway:

Yeah, there absolutely was. So we all had to go to Israel a second time to establish our citizenship, which I think was the right thing to do. You know, you can't just mail us a passport overnight, right? So we went to Israel again, we went to all the fields, we coached kids. We went to Independence Hall, we did all the things. 

What we also did was we had to go to their athletic Institute to be put through a battery of testing. They wanted to make sure we were healthy, and that we weren't going to die on the field. And I don't know if you remember the old Gatorade commercials, where they had a tube hooked up to your mouth and the EKG machine, all the wires coming off and you're running on a treadmill. We did that. 

And we're running on this treadmill. We're dripping sweat, we're panting. Our hearts are beating and we're all like, do you understand baseball? Like, we don't have to do this. But they put us through all the crazy testing. It was really awesome. And while we were at the Institute, we got to meet some of the Judo athletes, some of the windsurfer athletes and we went straight from there to the Israel Olympic Experience, which is like a museum for Olympics in Israel. It's not a very big museum.

Dov Wilker:

They've got some gold medals...

Ryan Lavarnway:

I believe, and don't quote me, because I'm not sure on the facts. But I believe they had 13 medals, before Tokyo and four gold, I want to say. Judo and windsurfing I believe, I might be wrong. 

But going through that Olympic experience, it really gave us context for understanding the history of Israeli athletics. And the tragedy that happened in the 70s. 

Dov Wilker:

I'm glad to hear that. I'm curious: in Israel, what was it like for you the first time, the second time? Did your opinions change when you became an Israeli citizen? I'm not going to ask for your political analysis of the current situation there, I don't think that'd be fair. How has that experience changed for you and your family? You're married. Did anybody join you in Israel?

Ryan Lavarnway:

So the first time I went, my parents were nervous. Because if you watch the American news cycle, you would think that Israel feels like a dangerous place. And they were like, Are you sure you want to go, especially right now. So I went into it a little nervous. not knowing what to expect, and you land on the ground. And I was like, I've never felt more safe in my life. This place is beautiful. It's amazing. We spent, the first time I went, we spent four days in Tel Aviv first, beautiful city, right on the water, we stayed in this beautiful beachfront hotel. And then we went to Jerusalem, and going to Jerusalem. And this is going to be a pained metaphor, so please forgive me. But in the same way, the first time that I stepped into the old Yankee Stadium, or Wrigley or Fenway Park, you can just tell it's different. 

You can just smell the significance in the air, you just know, like, I am among history, so many important things have happened here. And I get to experience this in the modern world. And it just feels, like your heart beats different, the air smells different. So going to Jerusalem was that for me, and especially getting to the Western Wall, I swear to God, I felt God for the first time.

And it was just this transformational experience. I think I cried. I think they caught it on video for the documentary, which is cool for me to live through and get to see again, because that was a really, really meaningful moment in my life. But going there, for the first time, yeah, my wife came with me. This was before we had our daughter, years before we had our daughter. But it was really, really meaningful and transformational for me to go for the first time. 

When I went back the second time, I got to experience it all again. You know, you don't have that transformational experience, because you've already changed as a person, and you're changed forever. So it was really cool to go back again. And then they handed me my passport. And I have this goatee so I kind of felt like Jason Bourne, where I have two passports now, like, which I am going to use. Except they both have the same name. It's very, very, very cool.

Dov Wilker:

So I'm gonna go for some rapid fire questions…

Ryan Lavarnway:

Oh wait, I have one more. I think it's a good answer. And I don't like to express my political opinions. But what I'd like to tell people is, if you either voted– in America, if you're an American citizen, you either voted for our current president, or you voted for the last president, you didn't vote for both. And either currently or four years ago, you were unhappy with the decisions that the government was making. I don't think that made you feel less proud to be an American. 

And I would encourage you to use the same opinion, when you think of Israel. Whether you agree with what the current current government is doing or not, does not have to color your opinion of whether you agree with the concept of Israel. When I think of Israel, I believe in what Israel is about, and it being a safe haven for the Jewish people worldwide, whether I agree with what the current government is doing or not. And I think it's very easy to judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions. And that goes the same with a country that you personally identify with also, so I just wanted to throw that in there.

Dov Wilker:

I so appreciate you saying that. I was speaking to a group of high school students recently. And I shared with them that, you know, we're talking about the current situation, and I said, you know, Israel welcomed in Ukrainians as citizens, not as refugees. If you read Israel's Declaration of Independence, it refers to the survivors of the Holocaust and those who were expelled from other lands. And so the in-gathering of the safe haven for the Jewish people is so important for us to be able to continue to remember the role that Israel plays in our lives. We're, you know, we're fortunate to live in the United States today. But we see that people need Israel more and more depending on where they live, not everybody is as fortunate and there are many people who have moved to Israel because of the antisemitism that they themselves might have experienced here. So I think it's a really powerful statement for you to make and something that I hope, I'm guessing that if you shared it here, you share it with all of your audiences, but if not, I hope that that's something you continue to share with your audiences. 

All right, well, it's no easy transition to my rapid fire, so I'm just gonna do it.

Ryan Lavarnway:

Just rip off the bandaid.

Dov Wilker:

There you go. Favorite Israeli snack?

Ryan Lavarnway:

Shawarma.

Dov Wilker:

Oh. Snack? You have a very different appetite than I do, my friend.

Ryan Lavarnway:

I have a very big appetite. 

Dov Wilker:

Favorite city in Israel?

Ryan Lavarnway:

Jerusalem. 

Dov Wilker:

Favorite baseball memory.

Ryan Lavarnway:

Two answers: World Series win, or my debut with Cincinnati. 

Dov Wilker:

Okay. Most challenging part of being a catcher.

Ryan Lavarnway:

Hitting in the ninth inning.

Dov Wilker:

You know, you talked about the small numbers, the mighty numbers of Jews in Major League Baseball today. Is there an association between the Jewish ballplayers in the major leagues and other professional sports? Is there any reason, maybe it's based on a city that you live in? Or it's sort of an overall, I know like, there's the Jewish Coaches Association, something like that? Is there anything like the Jewish professional ballplayers association, that gets you together, perhaps to be able to encourage others like you to play for the Israeli teams in other sports that they're professionals in.

Ryan Lavarnway:

Not that I've experienced yet, but that might be a cool idea to start. I'd be up for it. If you want to talk off of this broadcast.

Dov Wilker:

It's my new side project at work. Ted, thank you for the approval. 

And I guess my final question for you, Ryan, is, we're here today, Yom Ha'atzmaut, Israel's 75th birthday. What type of closing message do you have about the importance of Israel, you already talked about the safe haven for the Jewish people, but sort of the future of American Jewry. Any parting words of wisdom that you'd like to share?

Ryan Lavarnway:

My biggest thing is, participate, and be proud. And you need to be public, because the only way that we can get the benefit of the community and strengthen numbers is if we support each other, and we're aware of who each other are. I've received so much benefit in my life from embracing the community and stepping out into the public. And it's really changed my life. And it's changed how I view myself as a man. And it's changed the direction that I want to raise my family. And it's been such a positive change. And I've had such a positive embrace from the community. And I want others to experience that. And I never would have experienced it if I didn't go out of my way to participate in Team Israel. So I encourage anybody watching, go out, get involved, anything in your community, a team you can get involved in. It's been so positive for me, and I hope it can be so positive for you as well.

Dov Wilker:

Well, Ryan, on behalf of American Jewish Committee, thank you very much for joining us for this wonderful conversation.

Emmy Award-winning actress Julianna Margulies recently partnered with the New York's Museum of Jewish Heritage: A Living Memorial to the Holocaust, to help create the Holocaust Educator School Partnership. To date, the partnership has trained two university fellows to teach the history of the Holocaust to 1,700 middle and high school students in New York City Public Schools. In a poignant interview, Margulies shares her motivations for expanding the program, personal experiences of how antisemitism has affected her family, and reflections on her first visit to Israel and Yad Vashem.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

___

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Julianna Margulies

___

Show Notes:

Learn more about:

• The Museum of Jewish Heritage's exhibit The Holocaust: What Hate Can Do

• The Holocaust Educator School Partnership

Vote:

• Vote for The Forgotten Exodus at The Webby Awards: AJC.org/Webby

Test your knowledge: 

• Test your knowledge of antisemitism in America:

Stopping antisemitism starts with understanding how dangerous it is. Take our quiz and learn how antisemitism impacts American Jewish life.

Read:

• Breaking Down and Fighting Holocaust Trivialization:

Holocaust trivialization is not always obvious; a casual observer might miss it without an understanding of the terms, symbols, and relevant history. Here is what you need to know.

Listen:

• Surviving the Unimaginable: A Child's Story of the Holocaust:

In this powerful episode, we sit down with Sam Harris, who is one of the youngest survivors of the Holocaust. As a young child, Sam watched in horror as his family was taken to Treblinka and murdered, but he and his two older sisters were able to beat the odds. Listen as Sam recounts the unimaginable struggles he faced during one of the darkest periods in human history and how his experience motivated him to play a central role in the founding of the Illinois Holocaust Museum.

• What to Know About Israel's Judicial Reform Effort and Protests:

Last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu pressed pause on a series of contentious judicial reforms that have triggered mass protests, condemnation from wide swaths of Israeli society, and expressions of concern from American leaders and Jewish organizations. Guest host Belle Yoeli, AJC's Chief Advocacy Officer, sits down with AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson to discuss what this means for the future of the Middle East's only democracy.

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Interview Transcript - Julianna Marguiles:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Last year, Emmy Award winning actress Julianna Margulies hosted a Holocaust memorial special called "The Hate We Can't Forget", which featured the stories of four Holocaust survivors. In that documentary, Julianna sounded the alarm that Holocaust education across the country was severely lacking. After filming, Julianna partnered with the Museum of Jewish Heritage: a Living Memorial to the Holocaust here in New York, to help create the Holocaust Educator School Partnership, or HESP. Julianna is with us now to explain what that is and what she hopes it will accomplish. 

Julianna, welcome to People of the Pod. 

Julianna Margulies:

Thank you so much for having me. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So please tell our audience: what is the Holocaust Educator School Partnership or HESP?

Julianna Margulies:

HESP's an easier way to say it, actually Jack Kliger, who is the CEO of the Museum of Jewish Heritage, he calls he calls them the Hespians. So HESP is a program that I started with the Museum of Jewish Heritage after I hosted that CBS documentary on the Holocaust, when I realized how little education there was in our country. 

And with the rise of antisemitism and Holocaust deniers, I just felt, I felt despair, to be honest with you. I just thought it's ignorance, because people are not educated. And when you do not learn history, history repeats itself. And so after I hosted it I thought to myself, what can I do? I'm just one little person. I'm not a humongous star, but I have a bit of a platform. And I thought well, let me try and use my voice and the small platform that I have to make change. 

So luckily, I knew Jack Kliger. And I said, I hosted this Holocaust Remembrance documentary for CBS and MTV, and they paid me. I didn't even think I was gonna get paid to be honest with you, because it was, of course, a labor of love to do it. And I felt weird taking money for it. And so I took the hefty check that they gave me, and I said, let's figure out how to educate our children. Because these are seeds that you have to plant early. So that when these people become adults, this idea that conspiracy theories and the rest of it, they won't penetrate, because you already have that education and the knowledge inside of you to say, that's crazy, no. 

And also, it wasn't just about antisemitism. For me it was about–and this is how we're approaching it with HESP. It's about genocide. It's about racism. It's about homogenizing human beings. It is about putting people in a category who are different than you and saying you don't belong. So it really spans the spectrum of the entire world and all the people in it. 

For me, antisemitism is incredibly frightening because family members of mine were Holocaust survivors. I'm a Jew. I'm raising my son Jewish. And I just felt like I had a call to action after I hosted that documentary and watching the documentary, I learned a lot. But really, I think it's about hate. And as we like to say at HESP, never again.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

It's scary, right? Raising Jewish children is scary, as a mom, I mean, it's wonderful and rewarding and rich, but scary.

Julianna Margulies:

Well, it wasn't to me at all until I did this documentary and my girlfriend who lives right around the corner from me and her son goes to St. Ann's. She said, Well, how does your son get to school? I said, it takes the subway. We live downtown and he goes to school uptown. Her son goes to school in Brooklyn and she said, Oh, I won't let them on the subway. And I said, Why? And she said, Because he loves to wear his Star of David around his neck, and I'm afraid. 

And I just couldn't believe I was hearing those words. It's 2023. We live in New York City. And many people have asked me why I've started this program in New York City. Because isn't New York City the center of the Jews. They talk about that. The fact of the matter is, we're in the second semester of this program that I started, and it is shocking how many seventh, eighth and high school students do not know anything about the Holocaust. 

In fact, two weeks ago, one of my interns was teaching the hour course on the Holocaust and the history of the Holocaust, and an eighth grade boy up in the Bronx asked if there were any Jews still alive, after 6 million were killed. So that's where we're at. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So it's an hour long course. But there's more to it than that. Can you kind of walk us through the components of this, this partnership?

Julianna Margulies:

Yes. So, we take college and graduate students who apply to the program in our first semester, it was just starting out, and we had to do, and it is a paid internship, where they take an eight-day crash course at the Museum of Jewish Heritage on teaching the Holocaust, through one of our professional Holocaust professors there, they then go to schools that we contact, and give, from seventh to eighth grade all the way through high school, one-hour classes, on what the Holocaust was, what it did to the Jewish race, and how it was part of what World War II is about? 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Do they step into the classroom and take the place of a teacher for a period basically? 

Julianna Margulies:

So they come into the classroom, there, we talk to the principal first and the teachers and it's usually in a history period, it depends on the school's curriculum, and they step into the classroom. And they give this hour lesson and children get to ask questions. On occasion, although they are dying out now, we are able to bring in a Holocaust survivor. 

My idea now is, because the Holocaust survivors are dying out is, I would like to bring in the children and the grandchildren and the great-grandchildren of Holocaust survivors to tell the stories of their ancestors so that the stories don't get lost, and they don't die out. Because as we're seeing antisemitism isn't dying out.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So does it go beyond the classroom, or does it stop there?

Julianna Margulies:

It does. So because it's affiliated with the Museum of Jewish Heritage, we desperately feel that no child money should never be an issue when it comes to education. So we then after the class, a lot of scheduling is involved, but they're so on it at the Museum of Jewish Heritage. 

But then we supply buses and bring the children to the museum, which is beautiful, it's downtown and all the exhibits are quite something right now. It's this incredible, The Hate We Know. And it shows the very beginning of before World War II happened and then you get to see this journey that they took all the way after. After the Holocaust and after World War II is over. 

So they get to go and experience what we were teaching in their class and they get to ask questions. And it's been really heartening because we had an eighth grade class. I forget if it was the Bronx or in Brooklyn, they were so taken by the class that was taught. 

They chose, for their eighth grade project, an entire exhibition based on the Holocaust and what Jews went through and it was absolutely just gut-wrenchingly beautiful. They made me so proud. They sent me all the pictures of it, I was away working. So I couldn't go. But these kids were beaming. 

And they felt like they were doing something. I think the idea for me of what HESP is, and any kind of Holocaust education, I think because there's such darkness surrounding it. And I can understand why parents would be nervous to let a seventh and eighth grader learn about it, I understand the fear. But what I'm trying to implement into the program, is this idea of heroes. Who are these heroes that stood up in the face of evil, Jews and non Jews alike. 

And right now, in our country, I actually feel it's more important that the non Jews are standing up for the Jews, the way that I marched for Black Lives Matter, the way that we all marched for women, you know, this is a universal problem. And we all need to stand behind it. 

And if all the communities that are so oppressed joined together, power in numbers, and let's look at it more as shining a light on something that will make you feel heroic, to stand up to evil.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

How many kids has the program reached so far?

Julianna Margulies:

I'll tell you what's been really amazing to watch. So the first semester, we were small. And we had our two interns who did an incredible job, and they reached over 1700 children, and I always look at any kind of philanthropy, the way I look at acting, which is if I'm on stage, and I reach just one person in the audience, then I've done my job. And that's how I feel about this program. So knowing that they've reached 1700 children, maybe half of them didn't care or weren't listening or weren't moved. But there certainly were a handful that were. And what it also did was, when I went to the museum to congratulate our interns, when they graduated, we publicized it and took some pictures. And our next semester, we had 20 applicants. 

And in fact, I was just talking with —AJC's been really helpful. They're helping me expand it throughout the country. But it was Laura Shaw Frank, who said, What I love about this, and she's a holocaust historian, she said is that it's young people teaching young people, because they respond, kids respond to young teachers. And so to have these 20, 21, 22 year old interns walking into a classroom, full of, you know, 9th graders, 10th graders, 11th graders, and talking at their level, is actually incredibly helpful. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

I learned something from the documentary. AJC has this wonderful resource called Translate Hate. It's a glossary that's online and it teaches people about antisemitic tropes and terms that have been around Yes, since the dawn of time. And new ones too. It's constantly updated. And I learned a new term in that documentary called Godwin's Law. And I hope that we add it to Translate Hate later this year. And Godwin's Law is: the longer an online conversation goes on, the likelihood of a comparison to Nazis or Adolf Hitler rises 100%. I thought that was so interesting.

And so social media does play such a significant role in school children's lives. TikTok, Twitter, Snapchat, probably a few have been invented that I don't know about yet. What role do you believe social media companies should be playing in reining in this antisemitic rhetoric, if any role at all?

Julianna Margulies: 

Well, I think that I think they need to be responsible for misinformation, and hate speech. I'm all for the First Amendment. But where do you draw the line? Where do you draw the line here? I mean, children are sponges. And you plant one little seed, and it can be a good seed or a bad seed. And it's also you know, social media is toxic. 

I know I'm not a big social media person. I had to join Instagram when I wrote my memoir, because Random House said, Wait, you're not on social media. So I joined the lesser of all evils, because I figured the only people following me on Instagram are people who like me, right? So I'm not gonna get a lot of hate mail there. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Think again, Julianna. 

Julianna Margulies:

I know, I know, I actually realized–don't read the comments. But I do believe that it is their job to filter out the hate and the misinformation, I really do. I do not think they should be allowed to. I'm going to peddle these incredibly damaging, and life threatening conspiracy theories. It's not helping anyone, it's making people more angry. I know how I feel just scrolling through Instagram.

You know, I as an adult, who is not into any of it, and who feels very secure in who I am. And in my position in life with my family, and who I am as a person to my friends, and my child and my husband, I start feeling insecure. So if I, a confident woman in her 50s is feeling insecure, scrolling through Instagram, I can't imagine what it's doing to children.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

I love the way that you put it in the film, that just a little bit of Holocaust knowledge can actually be dangerous, that it's because it's just enough for someone to invoke it for political reasons or to make a point, but not enough to take responsibility and to try to prevent it from ever happening again. 

Was it important that this partnership that you are funding, be robust, be in depth, be more than just an hour long course? 

Julianna Margulies:

Absolutely. I mean, obviously, it's very difficult to teach everything in an hour. So the idea is that those who hear about it and learn about it from that course, will further their interest in it, and that the schools will eventually realize this is something we need to teach. This should be a mandatory class in our history program, the same way we learn about how America was founded, you know, like this is just as important, especially because it's just not that long ago. You know, this, this is quite recent. 

If you look at the big scale of our world, and how many years it's existed. This is not that long ago. And I, I do believe that institutions, Holocaust museums, all over this country, are doing a tremendous job in showing what it was like, I mean, you know, we're, we're, we're doing an exhibition in October because it's the 80th anniversary of the Danish rescue. And at MGH they're doing an incredible job. I'm on the advisory board now. They're doing the Danish rescue, and it's for children and families. It's not, there's no age, it's age appropriate for everyone. And it's showing the heroes that saved 7200 Jews, and-

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

If you could tell our listeners a little bit about what that Danish rescue is, what you're referring to.

Julianna Margulies:

So the Danish rescue. You know, it's interesting. I just read this book that Richard Kluger wrote, it's coming out in August, called "Hamlet's Children," and it's all about the Danish rescue. And very few people know about it. I didn't before I read the book. 

So Denmark was in a very tricky place in World War II. They had made a treaty with Germany and they were in a place where they were Nazi occupied, but they had made a deal with King Christian had made a deal that the Nazis could not harm their Jews because they were their Danish brothers and sisters, and they were not to be touched. Now, here's a country that is under Nazi occupation. And they hated it. And they sort of were grinning and bearing it. 

And then towards the end, when the Nazis realized they were losing the war, when America came in, and England came into the war, and they realized that this was going to be a losing battle. 

The Danes realized that their Danish Jewish brothers and sisters were in trouble. And boatload by boatload at midnight, they rescued 7200 Jews to Sweden, which was neutral. 

I think what's so important about that story, and I think for people who have gone to Yad Vashem, in Jerusalem, where I just was this past December, to see all these points of light, what would have been had 6 million Jews not been murdered? Where would the life, where would the tree have gone? How far would it have grown? 

And the 7,200 Jews that were saved, their families have lived on. And it's to show- it's about the tree of life, which was being chopped down before it could even begin. 

And it's such a heroic story of how they did it. We even have the actual boat that we've refurbished. That's actually in Mystic, Connecticut, because we couldn't get it to New York yet, but we will eventually. 

It is such a sort of miraculous story. And it wasn't just adults who saved these, these Jews. Everybody in Denmark rose to the occasion. And when you go to Yad Vashem, I mean, I, I had just finished reading the book and I walked down the path of the righteous at Yad Vashem, and I saw a plaque. 

So for those of you listening who don't know what the path of the righteous is, it's the path of all the heroes, the non Jews that stood up to the Nazis and protected the Jews from the Nazis. And there was this beautiful plaque to the Danish rescue, and I just, you can't help but weep. I mean, it's— where are those heroes? And so that's the light I want to shine on HESP and our Hespians is that these are heroes, let's be heroes. 

What's amazing to me, is in my business, you know, I'm an actress and all the big movies are about heroes. So why aren't we turning that into- Okay, so that's what makes money, right? Heroes. So let's make this about being a hero. Not about being an antisemite, or whatever labels they have for people who love the Jewish people, who are Jews. Let's turn this into a moment of heroism, and change the narrative so that our children grow up wanting to be heroes. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

I want to hear more about this trip to Israel. I've encountered many Holocaust survivors who don't talk about their experience until they make a trip to Israel. And then they feel empowered, obligated to tell their horrific story. I'm curious what you witnessed, what you experienced in Israel, both at Yad Vashem, but also in the greater country at large. 

Julianna Margulies:

Yeah, it was a magical experience. And we really crammed a lot in 10 days, because we wanted to make sure and when are we going to be back here? Let's do it. Right. So we actually hired a professor to take us around for 10 days. And really, we went to Tel Aviv, we went to the Negev, we went to Jerusalem. We even actually took a day trip to Jordan and went to Petra, which was mind boggling. We went to Masada. I mean, we did it all. We met with political consultants to try and understand the politics. And we went everywhere and learned about so much. And first of all, I think the thing that struck me the most– my sister was born in Jerusalem. In 1960, my big sister, and she, they left when she was one and I had never been to Israel, because we moved here. My parents moved back to New York. But I always felt this Oh, my sister was born in Jerusalem, I have to go. 

And we actually had meant to go for my son's Bar Mitzvah. But COVID happened and there was lockdown. So that didn't happen. Then the next year, we were gonna go and it was, Omicron. And so this year, it actually I'm glad I waited till he was 15. Because I actually think he got a lot more out of it. But one of the things that hit me the hardest was how young the country is.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

75.

Julianna Margulies:

It is so young. Because I grew up in England for a great part of my life, and every time I'd come back home, I think how young our country is, like, God, it's so young here. You know, I love America. But some of the ideas, it's like, how can we move past this in, there's still this sort of, it's very young, we live in a young country, Israel is very young. But it's founded on such a strength of community and belonging. 

And I remember just landing in Tel Aviv, and I looked at my husband, we're walking through the airport. Now we are with our people, it's like, I've never felt like I belong more. Most people don't think I'm Jewish. Most people think I'm Greek or Italian because of my name. But I didn't grow up Jewish. You know, my mother, they're both 100% Jewish, but my mother's family tried to keep their Jewishness quiet. Because her grandmother, who had fled from Prussia, persecuted for being a Jew didn't want to cause any reason for someone to harm her. So they didn't celebrate Passover and Yom Kippur and Hanukkah. They just stayed very quiet. And they didn't talk about it. 

They spoke Yiddish and they had Jewish food but they didn't advertise their Jewishness, because that caused tremendous pain in their family. And so for me once I became an adult, I wasn't Bat Mitzvahed. And I married a Jewish man who said, I want to raise our son Jewish, and I want a Jewish wedding. And I said, Great, I'm in, let's do it. That's fine. Okay. But as I've sort of grown into the role of my life, as not just the actress and the independent woman, but also as part of a unit, part of a family. 

We do Shabbat on Fridays, even if it's just to light the candles, and to say goodbye to the workweek, and to say hello to our friends and family. Putting down phones. It's the tradition of Judaism. Because I'm not a religious person, I've always felt any kind of religion is a little bit sexist. 

And even though I played a Hasidic Jew in a movie years ago, called "The Price Above Rubies," and I went to Boro Park and and I did some research on the women there because .. I guess I was confused as to why you would love this life, because to me, it felt suffocating, incredibly sexist, and demoralizing to be a Hasidic wife. 

And then to see their pride and joy in their work, and how they felt about themselves. Iit was quite eye opening. You know, I was judging, I was definitely judgy about it. And I learned a really good lesson, you know. But I have found tremendous joy in the traditions of our Jewish heritage. 

And our son knows, Friday nights, he can invite any friend over, but we're gonna, before the pizza comes, we're going to just do our blessings, light the candles, and kiss each other. There's something about tradition that is so lost in today's world, that gives a sense of meaning. And, and a route to the family. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

This has been a fascinating conversation. 

Julianna Margulies:

Thank you. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

I know that it could go on for hours longer. But thank you so much for joining us.

Julianna Margulies:

Thank you for doing this podcast. I really love it. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

I really hope this program expands across the country.

Julianna Margulies:

Thank you so much for having me.

Being Jewish podcast host Jonah Platt—best known for playing Fiyero in Broadway's Wicked—joins People of the Pod to discuss his journey into Jewish advocacy after October 7. He reflects on his Jewish upbringing, challenges media misrepresentations of Israel, and shares how his podcast fosters inclusive and honest conversations about Jewish identity. Platt also previews The Mensch, an upcoming film he's producing to tell Jewish stories with heart and nuance. Recorded live at AJC Global Forum 2025.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• The Forgotten Exodus: Untold stories of Jews who left or were driven from Arab nations and Iran

• People of the Pod: 

• Latest Episodes: 

• Sexual Violence as a Weapon of War: The Dinah Project's Quest to Hold Hamas Accountable

• Journalist Matti Friedman Exposes Media Bias Against Israel

• John Spencer's Key Takeaways After the 12-Day War: Air Supremacy, Intelligence, and Deterrence

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Transcript of the Interview:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Jonah Platt: is an award winning director of theater and improv comedy, an accomplished musician, singer and award winning vocal arranger. He has been on the Broadway stage, including one year as the heartthrob Fiyero in Wicked and he's producing his first feature film, a comedy called The Mensch. He also hosts his own podcast, Being Jewish with Jonah Platt:, a series of candid conversations and reflections that explore the many facets of Jewish identity. 

Jonah is with us now on the sidelines of AJC Global Forum 2025.

Jonah, welcome to People of the Pod.

Jonah Platt:  

Thank you so much for having me, happy to be here. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So tell us about your podcast. How is being Jewish with Jonah Platt: different from Jewish with anyone else?

Jonah Platt:  

That's a great question. I think it's different for a number of ways. I think one key difference is that I'm really trying to appeal to everybody, not just Jews and not just one type of Jews. I really wanted it to be a very inclusive show and, thank God, the feedback I've gotten, my audience is very diverse. It appeals to, you know, I hear from the ultra orthodox. I hear from people who found out they were Jewish a month ago. I hear from Republicans, I hear from Democrats. I hear from non Jews, Muslims, Christians, people all over the world. So I think that's special and different, especially in these echo-chambery, polarized times online, I'm trying to really reach out of that and create a space where the one thing we all have in common, everybody who listens, is that we're all well-meaning, good-hearted, curious people who want to understand more about our fellow man and each other. 

I also try to really call balls and strikes as I see them, regardless of where they're coming from. So if I see, let's call it bad behavior, on the left, I'll call it out. If I see bad behavior on the right, I'll call it out. If I see bad behavior from Israel, I'll call it out. In the same breath that I'll say, I love Israel, it's the greatest place. 

I think that's really unfortunately rare. I think people have a very hard time remembering that we are very capable of holding two truths at once, and it doesn't diminish your position by acknowledging fault where you see it. In fact, I feel it strengthens your position, because it makes you more trustworthy. And it's sort of like an iron sharpens iron thing, where, because I'm considering things from all angles, either I'm going to change my mind because I found something I didn't consider. That's going to be better for me and put me on firmer ground. 

Or it's going to reinforce what I thought, because now I have another thing I can even speak to about it and say, Well, I was right, because even this I checked out, and that was wrong. So either way, you're in a stronger position. And I feel that that level of sort of, you know, equanimity is sorely lacking online, for sure. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Our podcasts have had some guests in common. We've had Dara Horn, Sarah Hurwitz, you said you're getting ready to have Bruce Pearl. We've had Coach Pearl on our show. You've also had conversations with Stuart Weitzman, a legendary shoe designer, in an episode titled Jews and Shoes. I love that. Can you share some other memorable nuggets from the conversations you've had over the last six months?

Jonah Platt:  

I had my dad on the show, and I learned things about him that I had never heard about his childhood, growing up, the way his parents raised him. The way that social justice and understanding the conflict and sort of brokenness in the world was something that my grandparents really tried to teach them very actively, and some of it I had been aware of, but not every little specific story he told. And that was really special for me. And my siblings, after hearing it, were like, We're so glad you did this so that we could see Dad and learn about him in this way. So that was really special. 

There have been so many. Isaac Saul is a guy I had early on. He runs a newsletter, a news newsletter called Tangle Media that shows what the left is saying about an issue with the right is saying about an issue, and then his take. And a nugget that I took away from him is that on Shabbat, his way of keeping Shabbat is that he doesn't go on social media or read the news on Shabbat. And I took that from him, so now I do that too. 

I thought that was genius. It's hard for me. I'm trying to even start using my phone period less on Shabbat, but definitely I hold myself to it, except when I'm on the road, like I am right now. When I'm at home, no social media from Friday night to Saturday night, and it's fantastic. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

It sounds delightful.

Jonah Platt:  

It is delightful. I highly recommend it to everybody. It's an easy one. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what about your upbringing? You said you learned a lot about your father's upbringing. What was your Jewish upbringing?

Jonah Platt:  

Yeah, I have been very blessed to have a really strong, warm, lovely, Jewish upbringing. It's something that was always intrinsic to my family. It's not something that I sort of learned at Hebrew school. And no knock on people whose experience that is, but it's, you know, I never remember a time not feeling Jewish. Because it was so important to my parents and important to their families. And you know, part of the reason they're a good match for each other is because their values are the same. 

I went to Jewish Day School, the same one my kids now go to, which is pretty cool.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Oh, that's lovely.

Jonah Platt:  

Yeah. And I went to Jewish sleepaway camp at Camp Ramah  in California. But for me, really, you know, when I get asked this question, like, my key Jewish word is family. And growing up, every holiday we spent with some part of my very large, amazing family. What's interesting is, in my city where I grew up, Los Angeles, I didn't have any grandparents, I didn't have any aunts or uncles or any first cousins. But I feel like I was with them all the time, because every holiday, someone was traveling to somebody, and we were being together. And all of my childhood memories of Jewish holidays are with my cousins and my aunts and my uncles and my grandparents.

Because it was just so important to our family. And that's just an amazing foundation for being Jewish or anything else, if that's your foundation, that's really gonna stay with you. And my upbringing, like we kept kosher in my house, meat and milk plates. We would eat meat out but no pork, no shellfish, no milk and meat, any of that. And while I don't ascribe to all those things now, I'm grateful that I got sort of the literacy in that. 

In my Jewish Day School we had to wrap tefillin every morning. And while I don't do that now, I'm glad that I know how to do that, and I know what that looks like, and I know what that means, even if I resisted it very strongly at the time as a 13 year old, being like what I gotta wrap this up every day. But I'm grateful now to have that literacy. And I've always been very surprised to see in my life that often when I'm in a room with people, I'm the most observant in the room or the most Jewish literate in the room, which was never the case in my life. 

I have family members who are much more observant than me, orthodox. I know plenty of Orthodox people, whatever. But in today's world, I'm very grateful for the upbringing I had where, I'll be on an experience. I actually just got back from one in Poland. I went on a trip with all moderate Muslims from around the North Africa, Middle East, and Asia, with an organization called Sharaka. We had Shabbat dinner just this past Friday at the JCC in Krakow, and I did the Shabbat kiddush for everybody, which is so meaningful and, like, I'm so grateful that I know it, that I can play that role in that, in special situations like that. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So you've been doing a lot of traveling.

Jonah Platt: 

Yes.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I saw your reflection on your visit to Baku, Azerbaijan. The largest Jewish community in the Muslim world. And you went with the Jewish Federation's National Young leadership cabinet.

Jonah Platt:  

Shout out to my chevre.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And you posted this reflection based on your experience there, asking the question, how much freedom is too much? So can you walk our listeners through that and how you answered that question?

Jonah Platt:  

Yes. So to be fair, I make very clear I don't have the answer to that question definitively, I just wanted to give people food for thought, and what I hoped would happen has happened where I've been getting a lot of people who disagree with me and have other angles at which they want to look and answer this question, which I welcome and have given me a lot to think about. 

But basically, what I observed in Azerbaijan was a place that's a little bit authoritative. You know, they don't have full freedom of the press. Political opposition is, you know, quieted, but there's no crime anywhere. They have a strong police presence on the streets. There are security cameras everywhere, and people like their lives there and don't want to mess with it. 

And so it just got me thinking, you know, they're an extremely tolerant society. It's sort of something they pride themselves on, and always have. It's a Muslim majority country, but it is secular. They are not a Muslim official country. They're one of only really two countries in the world that are like that, the other being Albania. And they live together in beautiful peace and harmony with a sense of goodwill, with a sense of national pride, and it got me thinking, you know, look at any scenario in our lives. Look at the place you work, look at the preschool classroom that your kid is in. 

There are certain rules and restrictions that allow for more freedom, in a sense, because you feel safe and taken care of and our worst instincts are not given space to be expressed. So that is what brought the question of, how much freedom is too much. And really, the other way of putting that is, how much freedom would you be willing to give up if it meant you lived in a place with no crime, where people get along with their neighbors, where there's a sense of being a part of something bigger than yourself. I think all three of which are heavily lacking in America right now that is so polarized, where hateful rhetoric is not only, pervasive, but almost welcomed, and gets more clicks and more likes and more watches. It's an interesting thing to think about. 

And I heard from people being like, I haven't been able to stop thinking about this question. I don't know the answer, but it's really interesting. I have people say, you're out of your mind. It's a slippery slope. The second you give an inch, like it's all going downhill. And there are arguments to be made there. 

But I can't help but feel like, if we did the due diligence, I'm sure there is something, if we keep the focus really narrow, even if it's like, a specific sentence that can't be said, like, you can't say: the Holocaust was a great thing. Let's say we make that illegal to say, like, how does that hurt anybody? If that's you're not allowed to say those exact words in that exact sequence, you know. So I think if it's gonna be a slippery slope, to me, is not quite a good enough argument for Well, let's go down the road and see if we can come up with something.

And then if we decide it's a slippery slope and we get there, maybe we don't do it, but maybe there is something we can come to that if we eliminate that one little thing you're not allowed to say, maybe that will benefit us. Maybe if we make certain things a little bit more restrictive, it'll benefit us. And I likened it to Shabbat saying, you know, on Shabbat, we have all these restrictions. If you're keeping Shabbat, that's what makes Shabbat special, is all the things you're not allowed to do, and because you're not given the quote, unquote, freedom to do those things, you actually give yourself more freedom to be as you are, and to enjoy what's really good about life, which is, you know, the people around you and and having gratitude. So it's just something interesting to think about. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

It's an interesting perspective. I am a big fan of free speech.

Jonah Platt:  

As are most people. It's the hill many people will die on.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Educated free speech, though, right? That's where the tension is, right? And in a democracy you have to push for education and try to make sure that, you know, people are well informed, so that they don't say stupid things, but they are going to say stupid things and I like that freedom.

Did you ever foresee becoming a Jewish advocate?

Jonah Platt:  

No. I . . . well, that's a little disingenuous. I would say, you know, in 2021 when there was violence between Israel and Gaza in the spring over this Sheik Jarrah neighborhood. That's when I first started using what little platform I had through my entertainment career to start speaking very, you know, small things, but about Israel and about Jewish life, just organically, because I am, at the time, certainly much more well educated, even now, than I was then. 

But I was more tuned in than the average person, let's say, and I felt like I could provide some value. I could help bring some clarity to what was a really confusing situation at that time, like, very hard to decipher. And I could just sense what people were thinking and feeling. I'm well, tapped into the Jewish world. I speak to Jews all over the place. My, as I said, my family's everywhere. So already I know Jews all over the country, and I felt like I could bring some value. And so it started very slowly. It was a trickle, and then it started to turn up a little bit, a little bit more, a little bit more. I went on a trip to Israel in April of 2023. It's actually the two year anniversary today of that trip, with the Tel Aviv Institute, run by a guy named Hen Mazzig, who I'm sure, you know, well, I'm sure he's been on the show, yeah. 

And that was, like, sort of the next step for me, where I was surrounded by other people speaking about things online, some about Jewish stuff, some not. Just seeing these young, diverse people using their platforms in whatever way, that was inspiring to me. I was like, I'm gonna go home, I'm gonna start using this more. 

And then October 7 happened, and I couldn't pull myself away from it. It's just where I wanted to be. It's what I wanted to be spending my time and energy doing. It felt way too important. The stakes felt way too high, to be doing anything else. It's crazy to me that anybody could do anything else but be focusing on that. And now here we are. So I mean, in a way, could I have seen it? No. But have I sort of, looking back on it, been leaning this way? Kinda.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you think it would've you would've turned toward advocacy if people hadn't been misinformed or confused about Israel? Or do you think that you would've really been more focused on entertainment. 

Jonah Platt:  

Yeah, I think probably. I mean, if we lived in some upside down, amazing world where everybody was getting everything right, and, you know, there'd be not so much for me to do. The only hesitation is, like, as I said, a lot of my content tries to be, you know, celebratory about Jewish identity. I think actually, I would still be talking because I've observed, you know, divisions and misunderstandings within the Jewish community that have bothered me, and so some of the things I've talked about have been about that, about like, hey, Jews, cut it out. Like, be nice to each other. You're getting this wrong. 

So I think that would still have been there, and something that I would have been passionate about speaking out on. Inclusivity is just so important to me, but definitely would be a lot lower stakes and a little more relaxed if everybody was on the same universe in regards to Israel.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You were relatively recently in Washington, DC.

Jonah Platt:  

Yeah.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

For the White House Correspondents Dinner. I was confused, because he just said he was in Krakow, so maybe I was wrong.

Jonah Platt:  

I flew direct from Krakow to DC, got off the plane, went to the hotel where the dinner was, changed it to my tux, and went downstairs for the dinner. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Wow.

Jonah Platt:  

Yeah.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Are you tired?

Jonah Platt:  

No, actually, it's amazing. I'll give a shout out. There's a Jewish businessman, a guy named Andrew Herr, who I was in a program with through Federation called CLI in LA, has started a company called Fly Kit. This is a major shout out to Fly Kit that you download the app, you plug in your trip, they send you supplements, and the app tells you when to take them, when to eat, when to nap, when to have coffee, in an attempt to help orient yourself towards the time zone you need to be on. And I have found it very useful on my international trips, and I'm not going to travel without it again. Yeah.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Wow. White House Correspondents dinner. You posted some really thoughtful words about the work of journalists, which I truly appreciated. But what do American journalists get wrong about Israel and the Jewish connection to Israel? 

Jonah Platt:  

The same thing that everybody who gets things wrong are getting wrong. I mean, we're human beings, so we're fallible, and just because you're a journalist doesn't make you immune to propaganda, because propaganda is a powerful tool. If it didn't work, people wouldn't be using it. I mean, I was just looking at a post today from our friend Hen Mazzig about all the different ways the BBC is getting things horribly, horribly wrong. I think part of it is there's ill intent. I mean, there is malice. For certain people, where they have an agenda. And unfortunately, you know, however much integrity journalists have, there is a news media environment where we've made it okay to have agenda-driven news where it's just not objective.

And somehow it's okay for these publications that we've long trusted to have a story they want to tell. I don't know why that's acceptable. It's a business, and I guess maybe if that, if the dollars are there, it's reinforcing itself. But reporters get wrong so much. I'd say the fundamental misunderstanding that journalists as human beings get wrong, that everybody gets wrong, is that Jews are not a group of rich, white Europeans with a common religion. That's like the number one misunderstanding about Jews.

Because most people either don't know Jews at all on planet Earth. They've never met one. They know nothing about it except what they see on the news or in a film, or the Jews that they know happen to maybe be white, rich, European ancestry people, and so they assume that's everybody. When, of course, that's completely false, and erases the majority of Jews from planet Earth. So I think we're missing that, and then we're also missing what Israel means to the Jewish people is deeply misunderstood and very purposefully erased. 

Part of what's tricky about all of this is that the people way behind the curtain, the terrorists, the real I hate Israel people agenda. They're the ones who plant these seeds. But they're like 5% of the noise. They're secret. They're in the back. And then everybody else, without realizing it, is picking up these things. And so the vast majority of people are, let's say, erasing Jewish connection to Israel without almost even realizing they're doing it because they have been fed this, because propaganda is a powerful tool, and they believe it to be true what they've been told. 

And literally, don't realize what they're doing. And if they were in a calm environment and somebody was able to explain to them, Hey, here's what you're doing, here's what you're missing, I think, I don't know, 75% of people would be like, holy crap. I've been getting this wrong. I had no idea. Maybe even higher than 75% they really don't know. And that's super dangerous. And I think the media and journalism is playing a major role in that. Sometimes things get, you know, retracted and apologized for. But the damage is done, especially when it comes to social media. If you put out, Israel just bombed this hospital and killed a bunch of doctors, and then the next day you're like, Oops, sorry, that was wrong. Nobody cares. All they saw was Israel bombed a bunch of doctors and that seed's already been planted. So it's been a major issue the info war, while you know, obviously not the same stakes as a real life and death physical war has been as important a piece of this overall war as anything. And I wouldn't say it's going great.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Did it come up at all at the Correspondent's Dinner, or more of a celebration?

Jonah Platt:  

No, thank God. Yeah. It was more of a celebration. It was more of just sort of it was cool, because there was no host this year, there was no comedian, there was no president, he didn't come. So it was really like being in the clubhouse with the journalists, and you could sense they were sort of happy about it. Was like, just like a family reunion, kind of a vibe, like, it's just our people. We're all on the same page. We're the people who care about getting it right. We care about journalistic integrity. We're here to support each other. It was really nice. I mean, I liked being sort of a fly on the wall of this other group that I had not really been amongst before, and seeing them in their element in this like industry party, which was cool. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Okay, so we talked about journalists. What about your colleagues in the entertainment industry? Are you facing backlash from them, either out of malice or ignorance? 

Jonah Platt:  

I'm not facing any backlash from anybody of importance if I'm not getting an opportunity, or someone's written me off or something. I don't know that, you know, I have no idea if I'm now on somebody's list of I'm never gonna work with that guy. I don't know. I don't imagine I am. If I am, it says way more about that person than it does about me, because my approach, as we've discussed, is to try to be really inclusive and honest and, like, objective. And if I get something wrong, I'll delete it, or I'll say I got it wrong. I try to be very transparent and really open that, like I'm trying my best to get things right and to be fair. 

And if you have a problem with that. You know, you've got a problem. I don't have a problem. So I wouldn't say any backlash. In fact, I mean, I get a lot of support, and a lot of, you know, appreciation from people in the industry who either are also speaking out or maybe too afraid to, and are glad that other people are doing it, which I have thoughts about too, but you know, when people are afraid to speak out about the stuff because of the things they're going to lose. Like, to a person, maybe you lose stuff, but like, you gain so many more other people and opportunities, people who were just sort of had no idea that you were on the same team and were waiting for you to say something, and they're like, Oh my God, you're in this with me too. Great, let's do something together, or whatever it is. So I've gotten, it's been much more positive than negative in terms of people I actually care about. I mean, I've gotten fans of entertainment who have nasty things to say about me, but not colleagues or industry peers. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So you would declare yourself a proud Zionist.

Jonah Platt:  

Yes.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

But you wrote a column in The Forward recently over Passover saying, let's retire the word Zionist. Why? 

Jonah Platt:  

Yes. I recently wrote an op-ed and actually talked about on my pod as well about why I feel we should retire the word Zionism. Not that I think we actually are. It's pretty well in use. But my main reasoning was, that the way we all understand Zionism, those of us who actually know what it is, unlike a lot of people –is the belief that Jews should have self determination, sovereignty in some piece of the land to which they are indigenous. We have that. We've had it for almost 80 years. I don't know why we need to keep using a word that frames it as aspirational, that like, I believe we should have this thing. We already have it. 

And I feel by sort of leaving that sentence without a period, we're sort of suggesting that non-existence is somehow on the table. Like, if I just protest enough, Israel's going to stop existing. I want to slam that door closed. I don't think we need to be the, I believe that Israel should exist people anymore. I think we should be the I love Israel people, or I support Israel people. I'm an Israel patriot. I'm a lover of Israel, whatever the phrase may be. To me, the idea that we should continue to sort of play by their framework of leaving that situation on the table, is it only hurts us, and I just don't think we need it.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

It lets others define it, in their own terms. 

Jonah Platt:  

Yeah, we're playing, sort of by the rules of the other people's game. And I know, you know, I heard when I put that out, especially from Israelis, who it to them, it sort of means patriot, and they feel a lot of great pride with it, which I totally understand. But the sort of more universal understanding of what that word is, and certainly of what the Movement was, was about that aspirational creation of a land, that a land's been created. Not only has it been created, it's, you know, survived through numerous wars, it's stronger than ever. You know, third-most NASDAQ companies in the world. We need to just start talking about it from like, yeah, we're here. We're not going anywhere, kind of a place. And not, a we should exist, kind of a place.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So it's funny, you said, we all know what Zionism is. And I grinned a little bit, because there are so many different definitions of Zionism. I mean, also, Zionism was a very inclusive progressive ideology packaged in there, right, that nobody talks about because it's just kind of not, we just don't talk about it anymore. 

So what else about the conversation needs to change? How do we move forward in a productive, constructive way when it comes to teaching about Jewish identity and securing the existence of Israel?

Jonah Platt:  

In a way, those two things are related, and in a way they're not. You can have a conversation about Jewish identity without necessarily going deep down the Israel hole. But it is critical that people understand how central a connection to Israel is, to Jewish identity. And people are allowed to believe whatever they want. And you can be someone who says, Well, you know, Israel is not important to me, and that's okay, that's you, but you have to at least be clear eyed that that is an extreme and fringe position. That is not a mainstream thing. And you're going to be met with mistrust and confusion and anger and a sense of betrayal, if that's your position. 

So I think we need to be clear eyed about that and be able to have that conversation. And I think if we can get to the place where we can acknowledge that in each other. Like, dude, have your belief. I don't agree with it. I think it's crazy. Like, you gotta at least know that we all think you're crazy having that idea. And if they can get to the base, we're like, yeah, I understand that, but I'm gonna believe what I'm gonna believe, then we can have conversations and, like, then we can talk. I think the, I need to change your mind conversation, it doesn't usually work. It has to be really gently done. And I'm speaking this as much from failure as I am from success.

As much as we try, sometimes our emotions come to the fore of these conversations, and that's–it's not gonna happen. You know, on my pod, I've talked about something called, I call the four C's of difficult conversation. And I recently, like, tried to have a conversation. I did not adhere to my four C's, and it did not go well. And so I didn't take my own advice. You have to come, like, legitimately ready to be curious to the other person's point of view, wanting to hear what they have to say. You know, honoring their truth, even if it is something that hurts you deeply or that you abhor. You can say that, but you have to say it from a place of respect and honoring. If you want it to go somewhere. If you just want to like, let somebody have it, go ahead, let somebody have it, but you're definitely not going to be building towards anything that.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So before I let you go, can you tell us a little bit about The Mensch?

Jonah Platt:  

Yeah, sure. So the Mensch is one of a couple of Jewish entertainment projects I'm now involved with in the last year, which, you know, I went from sort of zero to now three. The Mensch is a really unique film that's in development now. We're gonna be shooting this summer that I'm a producer on.

And it's the story of a 30 something female rabbi in New Mexico who, life just isn't where she thought it would be. She's not connecting with her congregation. She's not as far along as she thought things would be. Her synagogue is failing, and there's an antisemitic event at her synagogue, and the synagogue gets shut down. And she's at the center of it. Two weeks later, the synagogue's reopening. She's coming back to work, and as part of this reopening to try to bring some some life and some juzz to the proceedings, one of the congregants from the synagogue, the most eccentric one, who's sort of a pariah, who's being played by Jennifer Goodwin, who's a fantastic actress and Jewish advocate, donates her family's priceless Holocaust-era Torah to the synagogue, and the rabbi gets tasked with going to pick it up and bring it.

As things often happen for this rabbi, like a bunch of stuff goes wrong. Long story short, she ends up on a bus with the Torah in a bag, like a sports duffel bag, and gets into an altercation with somebody who has the same tattoo as the perpetrator of the event at her synagogue, and unbeknownst to the two of them, they have the same sports duffel bag, and they accidentally swap them. So she shows up at the synagogue with Jennifer Goodwin, they're opening it up, expecting to see a Torah, and it's full of bricks of cocaine. And the ceremony is the next day, and they have less than 24 hours to track down this torah through the seedy, drug-dealing, white nationalist underbelly of the city. And, you know, drama and hilarity ensue. And there's lots of sort of fun, a magic realism to some of the proceedings that give it like a biblical tableau, kind of sense. There's wandering in the desert and a burning cactus and things of that nature. 

So it's just, it's really unique, and what drew me to it is what I'm looking for in any sort of Jewish project that I'm supporting, whether as a viewer or behind the scenes, is a contemporary story that's not about Jews dying in the Holocaust. That is a story of people just being people, and those people are Jewish. And so the things that they think about, the way they live, maybe their jobs, even in this case, are Jewish ones. But it's not like a story of the Jews in that sense. The only touch point the majority of the world has for Jews is the news and TV and film.

And so if that's how people are gonna learn about us, we need to take that seriously and make sure they're learning who we really are, which is regular people, just like you, dealing with the same kind of problems, the same relationships, and just doing that through a little bit of a Jewish lens. So the movie is entertaining and unique and totally fun, but it also just happens to be about Jews and rabbis.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And so possible, spoiler alert, does the White Nationalist end up being the Mensch in the end?

Jonah Platt:  

No, no, the white nationalist is not the mensch. They're the villain. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I thought maybe there was a conversion moment in this film.

Jonah Platt:  

No conversion. But sort of, one of the themes you take away is, anybody can be a mensch. You don't necessarily need to be the best rabbi in the world to be a mensch. We're all fallible, flawed human beings. And what's important is that we try to do good and we try to do the right thing, and usually that's enough.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, I thought that kind of twist would be…

Jonah Platt:  

I'll take it up with the writer. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, Jonah, you are truly a mensch for joining us on the sidelines here today.

Jonah Platt:  

Thank you.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Safe travels, wherever you're headed next. 

Jonah Platt:  

Thank you very much. Happy to be with you. 

The Forgotten Exodus has been nominated for a Webby Award, also known as "the Internet's highest honor" — but we need your help to win!

Click here to vote for The Forgotten Exodus for "Best Limited Podcast Series." It takes less than a minute. Voting ends at 11:59 p.m. PDT on April 20, 2023.

The Forgotten Exodus is the first-ever narrative podcast series devoted exclusively to the fascinating and often-overlooked history of Mizrahi and Sephardic Jewry from Arab countries and Iran.

Created by American Jewish Committee (AJC), the series debuted as the top-ranked Jewish podcast in America last August.

Please make sure that these fascinating and impactful stories reach an even wider audience. Vote for the series now.

____

Show notes:

Pond5: 

• "Arabic (Middle Eastern Music)"; Composer: Andrei Skliarov; Item ID # 152407112

Vote now: AJC.org/Webby

Listen to "The Forgotten Exodus": AJC.org/ForgottenExodus

This week, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu pressed pause on a series of contentious judicial reforms that have triggered mass protests, condemnation from wide swaths of Israeli society, and expressions of concern from American leaders and Jewish organizations. Guest host Belle Yoeli, AJC's Chief Advocacy Officer, sits down with AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson to discuss what this means for the future of the Middle East's only democracy.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

___

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Jason Isaacson

____

Show Notes:

Join us in Israel June 11-14 for AJC's Global Forum 2023: AJC.org/GlobalForum

Read:

• What to Know About Israel's Judicial Reforms

• American Jewish Committee, Other Jewish Organizations Welcome Suspension of Israeli Judicial Overhaul Legislation

Listen:

• How Jewish Teens Take on Antisemitism in America

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

____

Transcript of Interview with Jason Isaacson:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

This week, Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu pressed pause on a series of contentious judicial reforms that have brought scores of Israelis to the streets in protest. My guest host, Belle Yoeli, AJC's Chief Advocacy Officer, sat down with Jason Isaacson, AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer to discuss what this means for the only democracy in the Middle East. Belle, the mic is yours.

Belle Yoeli: 

Thank you Manya, and hello, People of the Pod listeners. It's great to be with you. 

Jason, thanks for joining us.

Jason Isaacson:  

Of course. Good to be with you, Belle.

Belle Yoeli: 

I think it's fair to say that it's been anything but a dull time when it comes to Israel. And I think that applies to the past year, the past few months, and especially the past few days. I'm sure our listeners have a lot of questions and very privileged that we're going to be joined by Jason to help us to understand and analyze recent events. And I'm going to jump right in. 

Jason, I want to begin by reviewing the sequence of events that led to the developments this week. The Israeli government has been pursuing legislation that would fundamentally change the way the judiciary operates, which has garnered a lot of attention. What has played out since Sunday that has led to the latest state of affairs?

Jason Isaacson:  

Well, you'd have to go back a few days before Sunday, to the meeting that took place last Thursday, I believe it was, between the defense minister Yoav Gallant, and the Prime Minister, before the Prime Minister left on his most recent European trip. And in the course of that meeting, it was widely understood that Gallant was going to present to the Prime Minister what he has found in talking to senior officers of the military, hearing about the concerns that reservists were planning not to show up or were not showing up for duty. And that there was just a severe security threat that was being posed by the protests that have been sweeping the country for the last 12 and a half, 13 weeks. And that something had to be done. And what that something was, was that we really had to slow the train and pause this process of judicial reform.

He presented that argument to the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister discussed this with him. Apparently, won some kind of understanding that would not lead to Gallant leaving or making a speech that night. And  then the Prime Minister took off for London. After that, two days go by and on Saturday night, the defense minister makes a speech, basically the speech that we all expected him to make last Thursday, saying just what I said about the effect that the judicial reform process, the rush to judicial reform, is having within the ranks of the military and the reserve of the military. And because of that, he is calling on the Prime Minister to halt the process, to pause the process of judicial reform. 

Within 24 hours, the Prime Minister fires the defense minister, much to the shock of the entire Israeli military establishment and much of the political establishment. And there were then massive protests. So of course, we've seen in Israel for the last 13 weeks, hundreds of 1000s of Israelis out in the streets, people across the political spectrum, rising up and saying this judicial reform package does not serve the interests of Israeli democracy, it actually undermines Israeli democracy. It changes the whole process of checks and balances in Israel. But it was the firing of Gallant, who is widely popular, even though a figure with a deep, honorable military background, on the right in Israeli politics, but respected across the board, which I think one could say generally has been the tradition in Israel, for those who have served in high office in the military, regardless of their politics.

The fact that he was dismissed by the Prime Minister in what looked like a political act, a personal act rather than an act that would serve the interests of security and of the best interest of the country. That's the way it appeared to so many in Israel. 

That's why 10s of 1000s of people immediately were out in the streets. And that's what led to the following morning, a whole series of events–calling of a general strike by the Histadrut, the Labor Federation. Israeli embassies and consulates around the world honoring that strike because they worked for the federal government and they're also part of the Union, Ben Gurion airport, stopping outgoing flights. Hospitals apparently no longer scheduling non-emergency treatment. So a range of effects rippling across the Israeli economy and society. At that point, it was clear that chaos is raining. This is not possible to continue on this track. And the Prime Minister, then after a series of discussions in the course of a very long day on Monday, made an announcement that he was putting a halt temporarily, to the judicial reform process that was racing through the legislature, through the Knesset until after Passover, after the Memorial Day, and Independence Day celebrations of Israel. 

So we got about five weeks or so to see what can come next. There apparently is going to be a–not apparently, there is already a negotiating process that has just begun, under the auspices of President Herzog with a different political factions sitting around the table, at least trying to establish a framework in which to pursue negotiations to come up with a compromise formula on judicial reform. 

Belle Yoeli:  

Obviously, we don't have time right now to go into every different piece of reform that's being proposed there are resources on AJC's website explainers on just that if anyone's interested in more details, Obviously, they've been widely reported on. But I want to get to the heart of: what are the concerns when it comes to this legislation? Why are these so controversial? Because we've heard a lot in the reporting about these proposals that Israel's democracy is at risk, but at the same time that's being said, Israel's democracy is on full display. So break down for us with the key big picture issues here with what's being performed with changes to the judiciary.

Jason Isaacson:  

Look, I think what what's at the heart of the issue is concern that minority rights could be trampled, that the the majority, which has now, the governing coalition has 64 seats in the Knesset, but we all remember that when the election took place in early November, it was a fairly small margin of actual votes that put this majority, put this coalition into power. That a narrow majority could trample on the rights of the minority in court cases in which a newly reconfigured Supreme Court with more justices chosen by this narrow majority in the Knesset, or the current Supreme Court, overwritten by a narrow majority in the Knesset, which is also part of the proposal, part of the proposed package put forward by the government. All of that could reduce minority rights. And I think that that's really at the core of this.

In addition to of course, maybe in the context of, larger divisions within Israeli society. We all know that Israel is a very complicated society with a significant secular majority and a growing religious minority that now has greater representation than ever before in the governing coalition. And I think that there are many in the majority, who are uncomfortable with that. 

There are also differences of opinion, as you know, within Israeli society on what to do with the West Bank, with Palestinian rights, with the future of a possible Israeli-Palestinian peace process, which has been pushed farther and farther into the background, farther and farther into the future, if it ever happens that there was the creation of a Palestinian state. 

But these fundamental questions that had been kicked down the road for so long, the secular religious divide the questions of what to do with millions of Palestinians who are living in the West Bank, and a growing community of Israelis who are living in the West Bank, as well, these are these are issues that often find themselves in court. And where that court comes down, and how the legislature responds to where that court comes down, are major issues that don't have to get addressed every day. But when they are addressed, people want an assurance that minority rights are respected, that the independent judiciary will be preserved, which by the way, is of huge importance to protecting Israel from international legal action and protecting Israelis from international legal repercussions, being able to point to the independence of the Israeli judiciary. So for all of these reasons, people take very seriously what's going on and the judicial reform proposals put forward by the governing coalition. 

That's why hundreds of 1000s of Israelis have been out in the streets over these last weeks. And it's why it's so important that when you make such a huge change that has such impact on the future of Israel, and on the future of the Israeli people, that the process be slowed down, that a negotiation proceed to try to reach a compromise proposal. So that we can we can take this crisis, you know, off the front page, and move, frankly, to celebrate the 75th anniversary of Israel, in an Israel that is united. And that has a common commitment, shared across the society, that it will protect minority rights, and that will protect the fundamental principles of democracy that we share with Israel in our country.

Belle Yoeli:  

Thank you, Jason. I want to ask you now about how this process and everything that's playing out is impacting Israel's relations with the United States, the US-Israel relationship, and also Israel's relations in the region, beginning with the United States. And, of course, the latest exchange between Prime Minister Netanyahu and statement by President Biden I've just seen now also vice president Harris joining concerns about the situation in Israel. What are we seeing in terms of the Israel-US relationship? Should we be concerned? What's your analysis on what's happening there?

Jason Isaacson:  

What we have seen, what we have heard from President Biden now from Vice President Harris, from Secretary of State Blinken, from others, of course, is concerning. But these statements expressing criticism of any efforts in Israel, to weaken the independence of the Israeli judiciary, to change the balance of power in a way that is rushed through the legislature and not arrived at through a deliberative, inclusive, careful process. These are the expressions of concern of a friend. 

President Biden is a longtime friend of Israel for 40 plus years in politics, he has always stood by Israel, his relationship with Prime Minister Netanyahu goes back that long, and with previous prime ministers as well, and other officials, he's visited many times. He is pointing out the importance of maintaining the spirit that unites the United States and Israel in so many ways. It is not just, this is an unusual relationship, it's a special relationship. It's a relationship. It's not just built on strategic interests. It's built on a very deep emotional bond, frankly, between the people of the United States and the people of Israel. It has a religious connection, it has a historic connection. It has a love of freedom and democracy that has been the animating principles of both of our countries for decades, or in the case, United States centuries. There is something unique in that relationship.

And from the point of view of this president who has a love affair with Israel going back for decades, that shared spirit of democracy is being threatened by this rush to change the system. That balances the rights of the judiciary and the rights of the elected legislature. And he has spoken about that with concern–with love of Israel, but with concern. 

Now, of course, no sovereign state likes a lecture from another country, from a great power. And it's not surprising that you had a sharp reaction to the President's words from Prime Minister Netanyahu and his supporters. But I would, I would point you to the long record of support that the President has expressed, which is, by the way, the tradition of US presidents in this relationship that exists between the United States and Israel, and must always exist, and that AJC has played a role in maintaining. 

But his words should be taken seriously. I do expect that once we get through this current crisis that there will be a visit of course by the Prime Minister. These are normal events in the life of our two countries. But right now, clearly, President Biden wanted to send a message, wanted to send a sharp message and make sure that it was heard clearly in Jerusalem.

Belle Yoeli:  

And Jason, of course, we've spoken a lot. And we've been celebrating the Abraham Accords and thinking a lot here at AJC about what comes next and how we can expand upon that success. I would imagine that what's playing on Israel right now is potentially threatening to some of the relationships that have been built, and putting countries in the region and in sort of a precarious position in terms of their relationships with Israel. What are you hearing on that regard?

Jason Isaacson:  

Well, you know, I think it's less of an issue, how Israel balances or rebalances the relationship between the judiciary and the legislative branch. These are issues that are really not very much on the radar screen of Israel's neighbors. What is on their radar screen, is the degree to which the Prime Minister– a figure, whom they have come to know over the years and developed relationships with and trust in. The degree to which he is in control, in control of his government and control of his society. The degree to which frankly, the high tech powerhouse of Israel remains on the course that it has been on, that has been  such a beacon for the region and and a selling point of Israel in terms of the relationship that Israel's neighbors want to have with Israel, want to develop, want to nurture with Israel. 

And apart from that, apart from this appearance of control, or lack of control and appearance of what's going on in the Israeli economy and the high tech sector. And we all know that's all been rattled by what's been going on, is the actions and the statements of members of the governing coalition who are on the radical edge of Israeli politics and who have said some, some very sharp things about about Israel's Arab neighbors, Israel's Palestinian neighbors, the role of Israel going forward in the territories in settlement construction, in walking back the disengagement agreement through which Israel left Gaza and some settlements in the northern part of the West Bank. 

Some very offensive statements that have been made, including by the finance minister, who said, there was no such thing as the Palestinian people. And he did make some other statements or appeared behind a map that seemed to express the belief that Israel and Jordan were all part of one contiguous territory. These are things that have rattled some of Israel's neighbors and have led to some denunciations of Israeli behavior. 

Now, I don't believe that the Abraham Accords are in jeopardy, I don't believe that anyone's going to walk back from the strategic decisions that were made in 2020. To establish or in the case of Morocco reestablished diplomatic relations with Israel. What I do worry about is a cooling of these relationships at a lower trajectory of these relationships, which were soaring until just weeks ago. And AJC as you know, Belle, has been playing a role for many years in trying to open up these relations and open up civil society dialogue, we continue to do, we have a presence in Abu Dhabi, we are active across the region, we'll get back on that track. 

And I believe that there are so many friends and potential friends that still exist in the Arab world for a closer relationship with Israel, a mutually beneficial relationship with Israel. But the news that's been coming from the street in Israel, and from all sorts of elements of Israeli society have upset Israel's neighbors. And we need to get past this, we need to come up with a compromise that will allow this to be driven off the front page. And frankly, the more extreme elements of the Israeli governing coalition need to be reined in. Whether it means walking around the Temple Mount, a very sensitive place for many of Israel's neighbors, or it means various statements that are made. 

The prime minister said that he had his hands on the steering wheel, he was in control. As that is further demonstrated to Israel's neighbors, I expect that the situation will calm down, and we'll get back on the very significant upward trajectory that we've seen over the last two and a half years in the Abraham Accords process.

Belle Yoeli:  

Jason, I'm encouraged by your optimism. And I just want to ask you one more question along the same lines. Obviously, this is a moment, this is a moment for the Israeli people. This is a moment for the Israeli government, and it's playing out and getting a lot of attention around the world. And of course, a lot of what I'll describe as Israel's enemies, or Israel's harshest critics, are in many cases monopolizing on this moment to say, everything that we've said about Israel is right, or this is the end of Israel's democracy. But as we've said, that's really not the case. 

What are your words of wisdom to really explain what's happening in this moment, when there is so much political polarization in Israel, there are competing visions for the state, but at the same time, we're celebrating 75 years of the wonder that is Israel and all the good that it brings to the world. 

How do we balance the hysteria and the concern of this moment, with optimism and what you were just talking about, that things will get back to normal, things will calm down, we will reach a compromise, we'll get there. What is the message that you really want to send about where things are going? And how we should be thinking about this going forward?

Jason Isaacson:  

Can you imagine any other country in the region, maybe not just in the region, in which a significant portion of the population would be out on the streets to defend a governmental system, a balance of power between branches of government, in opposition to what the current elected government has put forward? Hundreds of 1000s of citizens parading through the streets, carrying the Israeli flag, no violence, no destruction of property. When they have shut down major highways, when they have surrounded the Prime Minister's house. They're dispersed. No one gets shot, people aren't being put to jail. The spirit of engagement in the political process, of making your voice heard, of getting out on the street because you're a patriot, because you believe in the country you believe in the ethics of the country, the ethic of the country. 

And then, after weeks and weeks of this kind of citizen engagement, having a government that says, Okay, we hear you, we're going to take a pause, we're going to come up, we're going to see if we can find an acceptable compromise, even in that crazily diverse Israeli political system that we have. I think it's a remarkable piece of evidence, remarkable testament to the democratic spirit in Israel, the respect, the mutual respect that even people on different sides of the political spectrum have for each other and for the country, and for the processes that had built this country and kept it strong. Against all odds, against multiple challenges for 75 years. 

I have great confidence that this democratic spirit will prevail. I believe that a compromise is within reach, could be found. It is not unreasonable that there be a reexamination of the judicial-legislative balance, I think that they'll be able to find that. And by the way, if they cannot find it, Israel is a democracy. It has elections. It has had five elections in four years, it could have a sixth election. 

I have no doubt that the Israeli political spirit, which is a spirit of democracy, and a protection of human rights and protection of minority rights, will prevail, will get through this, and will go on for another 75, many more than another 75 years of this great miracle that is the state of Israel.

Belle Yoeli: 

Jason, thank you so much for that. And thank you for sharing all of your thoughts and analysis with us. 

I just want to make a plug to our listeners, that I think this conversation has shown you why more than ever before, it's important to show up and to engage on these issues. And I want to encourage all of you who have not yet registered to join us in Israel in June for AJC's Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, June 11 through 14th, you can sign up by going to AJC.org/GlobalForum.

We hope to see you there, and to be with us as we engage in this very interesting time in Israel. Jason, thank you. 

Jason Isaacson:

Thank you, Belle. 

Jewish teenagers in middle and high schools throughout the United States are experiencing antisemitism in various forms, including in their school premises, in the classroom, and on social media. Abi Streger, a Jewish student from suburban Atlanta, is one of the many teenagers who have faced such hatred.

Joining the conversation is Aaron Bregman, Director of High School Affairs for AJC's Alexander Young Leadership Department, who speaks about how AJC empowers students and their families to stand up to antisemitism.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

____

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Aaron Bregman, Abi Streger

_____

Show Notes:

Test your knowledge: 

• Test your knowledge of antisemitism in America:

Stopping antisemitism starts with understanding how dangerous it is. Take our quiz and learn how antisemitism impacts American Jewish life.

Read:

• In Washington, D.C., Jewish High School Students from AJC's Leaders for Tomorrow Gain Valuable Advocacy Skills:

More than 130 of American Jewish Committee's (AJC) Leaders for Tomorrow (LFT) students – Jewish high school students from across the U.S. – gathered in Washington, D.C. this week to speak up for Israel and the Jewish people during the Susan and Bart Lewis Family Leaders for Tomorrow Advocacy Day.

Listen:

• How Rising Antisemitism Impacts Jews on College Campuses:

Unpack the findings from AJC's State of Antisemitism in America 2022 report on young U.S. Jews, including those on college campuses, with the Senior Director of AJC's Alexander Young Leadership Department, Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman. We also hear from Northwestern University student Lily Cohen.

• A White House Meeting with Antisemitism Envoys from Around the World:

Two weeks ago at the White House, a group of antisemitism envoys from around the world attended an AJC-convened gathering as part of the efforts of an interagency group created by President Biden to build a national strategy to combat antisemitism. Two of those envoys join us to discuss that meeting.

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

Two weeks ago at the White House, a group of antisemitism envoys from around the world attended an AJC-convened gathering as part of the efforts of an interagency group created by President Biden to build a national strategy to combat antisemitism.

This week, two of those envoys, senior European antisemitism officials from the EU and Germany join us to discuss that meeting and share how their governments have addressed rising antisemitism.

Katharina von Schnurbein, European Commission Coordinator on Combating Antisemitism and Fostering Jewish Life, and Felix Klein, Federal Government Commissioner for Jewish Life in Germany and the Fight Against Antisemitism, also discuss their experiences fighting Jew-hatred in Europe and their impressions of the state of antisemitism in the United States. Klein is also an alumnus of Project Interchange, an AJC institute that brings global decision-makers to Israel to learn about its reality and complexity for themselves.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

____

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Katharina von Schnurbein, Felix Klein

_____

Show Notes:

Read:

• International Antisemitism Envoys Join AJC-Convened Meeting at White House-

American Jewish Committee (AJC) convened a meeting at the White House of antisemitism envoys from around the world as part of the efforts of an interagency group created by President Biden to build a national strategy to combat antisemitism.

• American Jews Shouldn't Be Afraid to Be Jewish-

In this Newsweek column, AJC CEO Ted Deutch writes that urgently creating and implementing the first-ever national action plan to effectively combat antisemitism in the U.S. is essential. The safety of Jews and the health of our society are at stake.

• Be Part of the Society-Wide Effort-

AJC's Call to Action Against Antisemitism in America is a dynamic tool to mobilize and unite all Americans in the fight against antisemitism. Read the Call to Action.  

Watch: 

• How Can Governments Win the Fight Against Antisemitism?-

At AJC Global Forum 2022, Katharina von Schnurbein joined U.S. Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Antisemitism Deborah Lipstadt to share how American and European governments are responding to the frightening resurgence of antisemitism.

Listen:

• 87 Ways to Fight Antisemitism: Inside the EU's New Plan to Combat Hate-

When the EU unveiled its first Strategy on Combating Antisemitism and Fostering Jewish Life, a multi-faceted plan that incorporated many recommendations from AJC, Katharina von Schnurbein shared how that strategy is being implemented and what it means for European Jews and the entire Jewish diaspora.

• Women's History Month: Meet Felice Gaer, Human Rights Champion-

She's one of the world's most effective champions of women's rights, human rights, and democratic values. For Women's History Month, we speak with Felice Gaer, director of American Jewish Committee's Jacob Blaustein Institute for the Advancement of Human Rights.

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

She's one of the world's most effective champions of women's rights, human rights, and democratic values. For Women's History Month, we speak with Felice Gaer, director of American Jewish Committee's Jacob Blaustein Institute for the Advancement of Human Rights. Gaer, who fights for religious freedom, the rights of women, and against antisemitism, highlights the importance of women's voices in an often-male dominated field. She has been appointed to the US Commission on International Religious Freedom, serving five terms (three as chair and two as vice chair), and was the first American elected to serve on the UN's Committee Against Torture. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

_____

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Felice Gaer

_____

Show Notes:

Read:

• JBI Appeal on the One-Year Anniversary of the Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Listen:

• 10 Trailblazing Jewish Women on AJC's People of the Pod

• Dr. Ahmed Shaheed on first UN human rights report wholly dedicated to antisemitism 

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

_____

Transcript of Interview with Felice Gaer

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Felice Gaer has served as the director of AJC's Jacob Blaustein Institute for the Advancement of human rights, affectionately known here as JBI since 1993. During that time, she has specifically focused on the rights of religious freedom, the rights of women, the prohibition of torture and the struggle against antisemitism globally. She has been appointed a public member of at least nine US delegations to United Nations Human Rights negotiations, including the Vienna World Conference on human rights in 1993. And the Beijing World Conference on Women in 1995. She was the first American elected to serve on the UN's Committee Against Torture. In fact, she served five terms, and she was appointed to the US Commission on International Religious Freedom, where she served as chair and advised the President and Congress on US human rights policy. 

And even though she's not a lawyer or a court justice, on March 30, she receives the Honorary Member award of the American Society of International Law, the preeminent international society in this field, as we mark International Women's Day this week and women's history this month, Felice is with us now to discuss today's human rights challenges and the challenges she has faced as a woman in the Human Rights world. 

Felice, welcome to People of the Pod. 

Felice Gaer:  

Thank you, Manya.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So let's start with the beginning. Can you share with our listeners a little about your upbringing, and how Jewish values shaped what you do today?

Felice Gaer:  

Well, I had a fairly ordinary upbringing in a suburb of New York City that had a fairly high percentage of Jews living in it–Teaneck, New Jersey. I was shaped by all the usual things in a Jewish home. First of all, the holidays. Secondly, the values, Jewish values, and awareness, a profound awareness of Jewish history, the history of annihilation, expulsion, discrimination, violence. But also the Jewish values of universality, respect for all human life, equality before the law, sense of realism, sense that you can change your life by what you do, and the choices that you make. These are all core Jewish values. And I guess I always have found the three part expression by Rabbi Hillel to sum up the approach I've always taken to human rights and most other things in life. He said, If I'm not for myself, who will be, and if I'm only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when? So that's a sense of Jewish particularism, Jewish universalism, and realism, as well.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You went to Wellesley, class of 1968, it's an all-women's college. Was there a strong Jewish presence on campus there at a time? And did that part of your identity even play a role in your college experience? 

Felice Gaer : 

Well, I left, as I said, a town that had a fairly sizable Jewish population. And I went to Wellesley and I felt like I was in another world. And so even as long ago as 1964-65, that era, I actually reached out to Hillel and participated in very minor activities that took place, usually a Friday night dinner, or something like that. But it really didn't play a role except by making me recognize that I was a member of a very small minority.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Here on this podcast, we've talked a lot about the movement to free Soviet Jewry. As you pursued graduate work at Columbia, and also during your undergrad days at Wellesley, were you involved in that movement at all?

Felice Gaer:  

Well, I had great interest in Russian studies, and in my years at Wellesley, the Soviet Union movement was at a very nascent stage. And I remember arguments with the Soviet Ambassador coming to the campus and our specialist on Russian history, arguing about whether this concern about the treatment of Soviet Jews was a valid concern. 

The professor, who happened to have been Jewish, by the way, argued that Jews in the Soviet Union were treated badly, but so was everybody else in the Soviet Union. And it really wasn't something that one needed to focus on especially. As I left Wellesley and went to Columbia, where I studied political science and was at the Russian Institute, now the Harriman Institute, I found that the treatment of Soviet Jews was different in many ways, and the capacity to do something about it was serious. 

We knew people who had relatives, we knew people who wanted to leave. The whole Soviet Union movement was focused around the desire to leave the country–not to change it–that was an explicit decision of Jewish leaders around the world, and in the Soviet Union itself. And so the desire to leave was something you could realize, document the cases, bring the names forward, and engage American officials in a way that the Jewish community had never done before with cases and examples demanding that every place you went, every negotiation that took place, was accompanied by lists of names and cases, whose plight will be brought to the attention of the authorities. And that really mobilized people, including people like me. 

I also worked to focus on the agenda of internal change in the Soviet Union. And that meant also looking at other human rights issues. Why and how freedom of religion or belief was suppressed in this militantly atheist state, why and how freedom of expression, freedom of association, and just about every other right, was really severely limited. And what the international standards were at that time. After I left Columbia, that was around the time that the famous manifesto from Andrei Sakharov, the world famous physicist, Nobel Prize winner, was made public. It was around the time that other kinds of dissident materials were becoming better known about life inside the Soviet Union post-Khrushchev.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So you left Colombia with a master's degree, the Cold War ends, and you take a job at the Ford Foundation that has you traveling all around Eastern Europe, looking to end human rights abuses, assessing the challenges that face that region. I want to ask you about the treatment of women, and what you witnessed about the mistreatment of women in these regions. And does that tend to be a common denominator around the world when you assess human rights abuses?

Felice Gaer:  

Well, there's no question that the treatment of women is different than the treatment of men. And it's true all over the world. But when I traveled in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union in the height of those years, height of the Cold War, and so forth, the issues of women's rights actually weren't one of the top issues on the agenda because the Soviet Union and East European countries appeared to be doing more for women than the Western countries. 

They had them in governance. They had them in the parliament. They purported to support equality for women. It took some years for Soviet feminists, dissidents, to find a voice and to begin to point out all the ways in which they were treated in the same condescending, patriarchal style as elsewhere. But in those years, that was not a big issue in the air. 

It was unusual for me, a 20-something year old woman from the United States to be traveling around Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, meeting with high officials and others, and on behalf of the Ford Foundation, trying to develop programming that would involve people to people contacts, that would involve developing programs where there was common expertise, like management training, and things of that sort. And I was really an odd, odd duck in that situation, and I felt it.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I mentioned in my introduction, the Beijing World Conference on Women, can you reflect a little on what had a lasting impact there?

Felice Gaer:  

Well, the Beijing World Conference on Women was the largest, and remains the largest conference that the United Nations has ever organized. There were over 35,000 women there, about 17,000 at the intergovernmental conference. I was on the US delegation there. 

The simple statement that women's rights are human rights may seem hackneyed today. But when that was affirmed in the 1995 Beijing Outcome Document, it was a major political and conceptual breakthrough. It was largely focused on getting the UN to accept that the rights of women were actually international human rights and that they weren't something different. They weren't private, or outside the reach of investigators and human rights bodies. It was an inclusive statement, and it was a mind altering statement in the women's rights movement. 

It not only reaffirmed that women's rights are human rights, but it went further in addressing the problems facing women in the language of human rights. 

The earlier world conferences on women talked about equality, but they didn't identify violations of those rights. They didn't demand accountability of those rights. And they said absolutely nothing about creating mechanisms by which you could monitor, review, and hold people accountable, which is the rights paradigm. Beijing changed all that. It was a violations approach that was quite different from anything that existed before that.

Manya Brachear Pashman : 

Did anything get forgotten? We talked about what had a lasting impact, but what seems to have been forgotten or have fallen to the wayside?

Felice Gaer:  

Oh, I think it's just the opposite. I think the things that were in the Beijing conference have become Fuller and addressed in greater detail and are more commonly part of what goes on in the international discourse on women's rights and the status of women in public life. And certainly at the international level that's the case. 

I'll give you just one example, the Convention Against Torture. I mean, when I became a member of the committee, the 10 person committee, I was the only woman. The committee really had, in 11 years, it had maybe said, four or five things about the treatment of women. And the way that torture, ill treatment, inhuman, degrading treatment may affect women. 

It looked at the world through the eyes of male prisoners in detention. And it didn't look at the world through the eyes of women who suffer private violence, gender based violence, that is that the state looks away from and ignores and therefore sanctions, and to a certain extent endorses. 

And it didn't identify the kinds of things that affect women, including women who are imprisoned, and why and where in many parts of the world. What one does in terms of education or dress or behavior may lead you into a situation where you're being abused, either in a prison or outside of prison. These are issues that are now part of the regular review, for example, at the Committee Against Torture, issues of of trafficking, issues of gender based violence, the Sharia law, the hudud punishments of whipping and stoning, are part of the concern of the committee, which they weren't before.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In other words, having that woman's perspective, having your perspective on that committee was really important and really changed and broadened the discussion.

Felice Gaer:  

Absolutely. When I first joined the committee, the first session I was at, we had a review of China. And so I very politely asked a question about the violence and coercion associated with the population policy in China, as you know, forced abortions and things of that sort. This was a question that had come up before the women's convention, the CEDAW, and I thought it was only appropriate that it also come up in the Committee Against Torture. 

In our discussion afterwards, the very stern chairman of the committee, a former constable, said to me, 'You know, this might be of interest to you, Ms. Gaer, but this has nothing to do with the mandate of this committee.'

I explained to him why it did, in some detail. And when I finished pointing out all of those elements–including the fact that the people carried out these practices on the basis of state policy–when I finished, there was a silence. 

And the most senior person in the room, who had been involved in these issues for decades, said, 'I'm quite certain we can accommodate Ms. Gaer's concerns in the conclusions,' and they did. 

That's the kind of thing that happens when you look at issues from a different perspective and raise them.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You talked about being an odd duck in your 20s, as a woman traveling around Eastern Europe, trying to address these challenges. I'm curious if that woman in her 20s would have been able to stand up to this committee like that, and give that thorough an explanation? Or did it take some years of experience, of witnessing these issues, perhaps being ignored? 

Felice Gaer: 

Well, I think as we go through life, you learn new things. And I learned new things along the way. I learned about the universal norms, I learned about how to apply them, how they had been applied, and how they hadn't been applied. And in that process, developed what I would say is a sharper way of looking at these issues. 

But the Bosnian conflict in particular, made the issue of gender based violence against women, especially in war, but not only in war, into a mainstream issue, and helped propel these issues, both inside the United Nations and outside, the awareness changed. 

I remember asking the International Red Cross representatives in Croatia, just across the border from Bosnia, if they had encountered any victims of gender based violence or rape, and they said, 'No.' And I said, 'Did you ask them about these concerns?' And they sort of looked down and looked embarrassed, looked at each other and looked back at me and said, 'Oh.' There were no words. There were no understandings of looking at the world this way.

And that has changed. That has changed dramatically today. I mean, if you look at the situation in Ukraine, the amount of gender based violence that has been documented is horrifying, just horrifying, but it's been documented.

Manya Brachear Pashman  

So is the world of human rights advocacy male-dominated, female-dominated, is it fairly balanced these days? And has that balance made the difference in what you're talking about?

Felice Gaer:  

You know, I wrote an article in 1988, the 40th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, about why women's rights weren't being addressed. And one of the points I drew attention to was the fact that the heads of almost all the major organizations at the time were all male. And that it wasn't seen as a concern. A lot of that has changed. There's really a real variety of perspectives now that are brought to bear.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So we've talked a lot about the importance of [a] woman's perspective. Does a Jewish perspective matter as well?

Felice Gaer:  

Oh, on every issue on every issue and, you know, I worked a great deal on freedom of religion and belief, as an issue. That's a core issue of AJC, and it's a fundamental rights issue. And it struck me as surprising that with all the attention to freedom of religion, the concern about antisemitic acts was not being documented by mainstream human rights organizations. And it wasn't being documented by the UN experts on freedom of religion or belief either.

I drew this to the attention of Dr. Ahmed Shaheed, who was recently ending his term as Special Rapporteur on Freedom of religion or belief. And he was really very struck by this. And he went, and he did a little bit of research. And he found out that since computerized records had been prepared at the United Nations, that there had been no attention, no attention at all, to cases of alleged antisemitic incidents. And he began a project to record the kinds of problems that existed and to identify what could be done about it. We helped him in the sense that we organized a couple of colloquia, we brought people from all over the world together to talk about the dimensions of the problem and the documentation that they did, and the proposals that they had for addressing it. And he, as you may recall, wrote a brilliant report in 2019, setting out the problems of global antisemitism. And he followed that up in 2022, before leaving his position with what he called an action plan for combating antisemitism, which has concrete specific suggestions for all countries around the world as to what they can do to help combat antisemitism and antisemitic acts, including and to some extent, starting with adopting the working definition on antisemitism of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, but also activities in in the area of education, training, training of law enforcement officials, documentation and public action. It's a real contribution to the international discourse and to understanding that freedom of religion or belief belongs to everyone.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And do you believe that Dr. Shaheed's report is being absorbed, comprehended by those that need to hear it that need to understand it?

Felice Gaer  

I've been delighted to see the way that the European Union has engaged with Dr. Shaheed and his report has developed standards and expectations for all 27 member states, and that other countries and other parts of the world have done the same. So yeah, I do think they're engaging with it. I hope there'll be a lot more because the problem has only grown.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

On the one year anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, JBI issued a report that sounded the alarm on the widespread violations committed against Ukrainians, you mentioned the amount of gender based violence Since that has taken place, and the other just catastrophic consequences of this war. Felice, you've been on the front row of Eastern European affairs and human rights advocacy in that region. From your perspective, and I know this is a big question: How did this war happen?

Felice Gaer:  

I'll just start by saying: it didn't start in 2022. And if you have to look at what happened, the events of 2014, to understand the events of 2022. Following the breakup of the Soviet Union, or even during the breakup, there was a period where the 15th constituent Union republics of the Soviet Union developed a greater national awareness, really, and some of them had been independent as some of them hadn't been, but they developed a much greater awareness. When the Soviet Union collapsed, the 15 countries, including Russia, as one of the 15, became independent entities. And aside from having more members in the United Nations and the Council of Europe and places like that, it led to much more robust activity, in terms of respecting human rights and other areas of endeavor in each of those countries. 

The situation in Russia, with a head of state who has been there, with one exception, a couple of years, for 20 years, has seen an angry desire to reestablish an empire. That's the only thing you can say really about it. 

If they can't dominate by having a pro-Russian group in charge in the country, then there have been invasions, there have been Russian forces, Russia-aligned forces sent to the different countries. So whether it's Georgia, or Moldova, or Ukraine, we've seen this pattern. 

And unfortunately, what happened in 2022, is the most egregious and I would say, blatant such example. In 2014, the Russians argued that it was local Russian speaking, little green men who were conducting hostilities in these places, or it was local people who wanted to realign with Russia, who were demanding changes, and so forth. But in the 2022 events, Russia's forces invaded, wearing Russian insignia and making it quite clear that this was a matter of state policy that they were pursuing, and that they weren't going to give up. 

And it's led to the tragic developments that we've all seen inside the country, and the horrific violence, the terrible, widespread human rights violations. And in war, we know that human rights violations are usually the worst. 

And so the one good spot on the horizon: the degree to which these abuses have been documented, it's unprecedented to have so much documentation so early in a conflict like this, which someday may lead to redress and accountability for those who perpetrated it. But right now, in the middle of these events, it's just a horror.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What other human rights situations do we need to be taking more seriously now? And where has there been significant progress?

Felice Gaer:  

Well, I'll talk about the problem spots if I may for a minute. Everyone points to North Korea as the situation without parallel, that's what a UN Commission of Inquiry said, without parallel in the world. The situation in Iran? Well, you just need to watch what's happened to the protesters, the women and others who have protested over 500 people in the streets have died because of this. 15,000 people imprisoned, and Iran's prisons are known for ill treatment and torture. 

The situation in Afghanistan is atrocious. The activities of the Taliban, which they were known for in the 1990s are being brought back. They are normalizing discrimination, they are engaged in probably the most hardline gender discrimination we've seen anywhere where women can't work outside the home, girls can't be educated, political participation is denied. The constitution has been thrown out. All kinds of things. The latest is women can't go to parks, they can't go to university, and they can't work for NGOs. This continues. It's a major crisis. 

Well, there are other countries, from Belarus, to Sudan to Uzbekistan, and China, that we could also talk about at great length, lots of problems in the world, and not enough effort to expose them, address them and try to ameliorate them.

Manya Brachear Pashman  

So what do we do about that? What can our listeners do about that, when we hear this kind of grim report?

Felice Gaer:  

Work harder. Pay attention when you hear about rights issues. Support rights organizations. Take up cases. Seek redress. Be concerned about the victims. All these things need to be done.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I don't know how you maintain your composure and your cool, Felice, because you have faced so much in terms of challenges and push back. So thank you so much for all you have done for women, for the Jewish people, and for the world at large. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Felice Gaer:  

Thank you, Manya.

Rabbi Sandra Lawson, Reconstructing Judaism's first director of racial diversity, equity and inclusion, joins us to talk about how you can support Jews of color. The social media influencer uses her platform both online and off as a queer Jew of color to drive hard conversations around racism, homophobia, and antisemitism. Rabbi Lawson, who feels a deep responsibility to serve American Jews, is full of Jewish pride amid a rise in anti-Jewish hate.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

____

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Rabbi Sandra Lawson

____

Show Notes:

Check out:

• AJC's State of Antisemtism in America Report 2022

• Take this quiz to test your knowledge of how antisemitism impacts America and its Jewish population

• The Power of Joy: Reflections on the Jewish Month of Adar by Rabbi Sandra Lawson 

Listen: 

• Our most recent podcast episode: The Jewish Experience in Ukraine Amidst Russia's Invasion

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

One year after Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine, Vladislav Davidzon, European culture correspondent for Tablet Magazine, shares what he's witnessed as a war correspondent on the frontlines, and predicts the future for his beloved country and the Jewish community he's proud to call home. 

We last spoke to Davidzon hours before the Russia-Ukraine war began, when he was on the ground in Kyiv – listen now to his dispatch a year on, as he joins us live from our New York studio.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

___

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Vladislav Davidzon

____

Show Notes:

Read:

• What You Need to Know About the Wagner Group's Role in Russia's War Against Ukraine

• Preorder: Jewish-Ukrainian Relations and the Birth of a Political Nation 

Watch:

• Kiyv Jewish Forum:

• Ted Deutch, AJC CEO, Addresses Kyiv Jewish Forum 2023

• Panel: Ukraine as the Israel of Europe with Simone Rodan-Benzaquen, Managing Director of AJC Europe, Bernard Henry Levi, philosopher, and Josef Joffe, Stanford University

Listen: 

• Podcast episode with Vladislav Davidzon, recorded February 23, 2022:  Live from Kyiv: The Future of Ukraine and its Large Jewish Community

• Our most recent podcast episode: How Rising Antisemitism Impacts Jews on College Campuses

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

______

Transcript of Interview with Vladislav Davidzon:

Manya:

On February 24th, 2022, just hours before the Russian invasion of Ukraine began, Vladislav Davidzon, founding editor of The Odessa Review and contributor to Tablet Magazine, joined us live from Kiyv to share the mood on the ground as Russian forces were closing in. Now, one year later, Vladislav joins us again, this time in person, in our studio to share what he has seen, heard, and experienced this past year since the Russian invasion of his home.

Vladislav, it is so good to see you alive and well and in person.

Vladislav:

Thank you so much. This is so surreal. I'm so grateful, first of all, for your interest, for your affection, for your graciousness, for your respect. But I'm grateful to be here exactly one year later. It was the last thing that I did in the workday before the war began, before the old world ended. And I went off to dinner with my friend, now of blessed memory, Dan Rappaport, who was an American Latvian born Jewish financier. It was also the last time I saw him.

He died under very suspicious circumstances. He died falling out of a window in Washington, DC, or of a roof, on the seventh floor, three months later. I just have extremely intense emotions about that six hour period because…I was talking to my wife, my wife's French Ukrainian, she was back in Paris.

I said, if anything happens tonight, I'll call you in the morning. Things are gonna go down tonight. And then I did this podcast with you. And so, it's really amazing to be back with you a year later.

Manya:

Yes. I mean, I  am so grateful to see you because I really was very worried. I worried that that was going to be our last conversation, and that I would not get a chance to meet you in person after that.

And in addition to everything, you've been working on a book, The Birth of a Political Nation, which we'll talk a little bit more about shortly. But, first tell me, tell our listeners how you have managed to survive and tell the stories that need to be told.

Vladislav:

It's not pretty. I mean, it's just, it's not elegant.

I'm a Ukrainian Russian Jew, so I kind of went into primordial, bestial mode, like Russian Ukrainian, Jewish survival mode, like my grandfathers and great-grandfathers during World War II. I just, you know, something clicked and your your training and your skillset and your deep cultural characteristics click in and you just go full on Hemingway, Lord Byron, and then you just go to war. Like a lot of other people, I went to war. I burned out after about six months and I needed some months off.

I was just rnning around like a madman, reporting, getting my own relatives out, helping whatever way I could, helping my family close down their businesses, helping run guns, going on t radio, you know, just collecting money, going to the front, just, going off on an adrenaline rush. And it's admixture of rage, testosterone.

Adrenaline, survival, rage,  all the cocktail of horrific, let's say toxic masculine character [laughs]. I know you can't, I I know. I'm ironic about that. I live in Eastern Europe, so you can, you can still make fun of all that stuff in Eastern Europe. I don't know if you can here, but, you know, jokes aside. I just went into this deeply primordial state of Ukrainian Russian civilizational structures of brutal survival and fighting.

And that went on for about six months, at which point I just crashed and collapsed and needed some off time.

Manya:

How much of your journalistic instincts also fueled your push on, your forging ahead and surviving just to tell the story, or was it more a familial connection?

Vladislav:

I have skin in the game. I'm from there. I mean, my ancestors are from there, two of my grandparents were born there. My family lived there for hundreds of years. I'm married to a Ukrainian Jewish girl. I have family there. My friends are, these are my people. I'm deeply tribal.

Obviously you take the opportunity as a journalist reporting on a country for 10 years and almost no one cares about it. And you're an expert on it. You know all the politicians and you know all the, all the stories and you know all the storylines. And you, you have contacts everywhere.

You know, of a country like the back of your hand. And suddenly it becomes the focal point of the world's attention and it becomes the greatest story in the entire world. And of course, you're prepared in a way that all, all these other people who paratroop in are not prepared, and you have to make the best of it.

And you have to tell stories from people who wouldn't otherwise have access to the media. And you have to explain, there's so much bad stuff in terms of quality of reporting coming out of Ukraine because so many amateurs went in. In any given situation, there are lots of people who come to a war zone.

You know, in wars, people, they make their bones, they become rich, they become famous, they get good looking lovers. Everyone gets paid in the currency that they want. Right? But this is my country. I've been at this for 10, 12 years. I don't begrudge anyone coming to want to tell the story.

Some people are opportunists in life and some people are extraordinarily generous and gracious. And it almost doesn't matter what people's motivations are. I don't care about why you came here. I care about the quality of the work. And a lot of the work was pretty bad because people didn't have local political context, didn't have language skills.

And a lot of that reporting was so-so. I made the most of it, being an area expert. And also being a local, I did what I had to do. I wish I'd done more. I wish I went 500% as opposed to 250%. But everyone has their limits.

Manya:

What got lost? With the poor reporting, what do you think with the stories that you captured, or what do you wish you had captured, giving that additional 250%?

Vladislav:

Yeah. It's a great question. I wish that I had known now what I know a year ago, but that's life in general. About where the battles would be and what kinds of people and what kinds of frontline pounds would have particular problems getting out to particular places.

For example, I know now a lot more about the evacuation of certain ethnic communities. The Gagauz, the Greeks. Ukraine is full of different kinds of people. It's a mosaic. I know now a lot about the way that things happened in March and April. Particular communities went in to help their own people.

Which is great. It's fine. a lot of very interesting characters wound up in different places. Much of Ukrainian intelligentsia, they wound up outside the country. A lot stayed, but a lot did wind up in different places like Berlin and the Baltics. Uh, amazing stories from, uh, the volunteers like the Chechens and the Georgians and the Lithuanians and the Belarus who came to fight for Ukraine.

Just, you know, I wish I'd kept up with the guys that I was drinking with the night before. I was drinking with like six officers the night before, and two of 'em are alive. Mm or three alive now. I was with the head of a Georgian Legion two nights before the war. Hang out with some American CIA guys and people from the guys from the American, actually a couple of girls, also hardcore American girls from the US Army who were operatives and people at our embassy in Kyiv who didn't get pulled out. These are our hardcore people who after the embassy left, told whoever wanted to stay on the ground to stay. I met some very interesting people. I wish I'd kept up with them. I don't, I don't know what happened with them or what, what their war experiences were like. So, you know. Yeah. Life is full of regrets.

Manya:

You talked a little bit about the ethnic communities coming in to save people and to get them out. How did the Jewish communities efforts to save Ukrainian Jews compare to those efforts? Did you keep tabs on that? Movement as well.

Vladislav:

Oh, yeah. Oh, in fact, I worked on that actually,  to certainly to a smaller extent than other people or whatever. I certainly helped whatever I could. It was such a mad scramble and it was so chaotic in the beginning of a war.

The first two weeks I would be getting calls from all over the world. They would call me and they would say this and this and this person, I know this person needs to get out. There were signal groups of volunteers, exfiltration organizations, special services people, my people in the Ukrainian Jewish community who were all doing different things to get Jews out.

Tens of thousands of people were on these lists. And I would figure out to the extent possible with about 50 people, 40 to 50 people,  what their risk level was. And I would give 'em advice. I have a gay friend, one of my wife's business partners, who was the head of a major television station.

And he would, he would've been on the Kill list because he was in part of intelligentsia and he was gay. I gave him particular advice on where to go.  I said, go to this village–and men aren't allowed of the country, and he wasn't the kind of guy who was gonna fight.

I said, go to a particular place. I told him, go to this village and sit here and don't go anywhere for two months. And he did this.

Other people needed to be gotten out. Holocaust survivors, especially. We have horrific incidents of people who survived Stalin's war and Hitler's war and who died of heart attacks under their beds, hiding from Russian missiles.

There were many stories of Holocaust survivors. Typically, it's old women by this point. It's not it's not gentleman. Women do live longer. Older women in their nineties expiring in a bunker, in an underground metro station or under their bed hiding from missiles, you know. Horrific stories. but people who survived Auschwitz did get killed by the missiles. We have stories like that.

And so to continue, there were many people working on getting elderly Jews out. Getting Jewish women out. Jewish kids out. There were, in fact, there were people working on getting all sorts of people out.

And that's still going on. And I met a Jewish member of the Ukrainian parliament last night who did this for two months. Uh, I saw, I saw my acquaintance who I hadn't seen in two years. Yeah. There are a lot of people I haven't seen in a year, obviously, for the obvious reasons. I saw an acquaintance who's an Israeli educated Ukrainian member of parliament. He spent the first three months just evacuating Jews, driving convoys of special forces guys, former Mossad guys, special operatives into cities like Mariupol, Chernigev to get Jews out.

Literally driving through minefields at a certain point with buses full of elderly Jews. And he told me last night that they got 26,000 Jews out. Just in his organization, which was Special Forces guys, Ukrainian police volunteers, Ukrainian Jewish guys who came back from Israel with IDF training, a motley collection of people. But they set up an organization and they went in, and they got people out.

Manya:

That's amazing. So I know before, when we spoke before you were splitting your time between Ukraine  and France, because your wife is of French descent as well.

For your most recent piece for Tablet, the most recent one that I've read, you were in Tel Aviv doing an interview. So where have you spent most of your time, in this past year?

Vladislav:

In my head.

Manya:

Yeah. Understandable.

Vladislav:

I've spent, if I had to count up the dates of my passport, 40 to 50% of my time in Ukraine, over the last, less than the last three months for various family reasons and, you know, working on my book

But half the time in Ukraine, in and out. I've been all over, spent a lot of time on the front. That was intense. That was really intense.

Manya:

You mean as a war correspondent on the front lines?

Vladislav:

Yeah,I was in Sievierodonetsk, Kharkiv, Kherson, Lysychansk, Mykolaiv. I was all over the front. I was with the commanding general of the Southern front in a car, driving back from the battle of  Kherson, and we got stripped by a Russian sniper three times and they hit our car. They just missed by like a couple of centimeters, side of a thing. And the guy actually usually drove around in an armored Hummer. But the armored Hummer was actually in the shop getting repaired that day and was the one day he had an unarmored Hummer.

And we were just in an unarmed car, in an unarmed command car, black Mercedes, leaving the war zone a couple of kilometers out, just a Russian reconnaissance sniper advanced group just, you know, ambushed us. They were waiting for us to, maybe they were just taking pot shots at a command car, but they were waiting for us as we were leaving.

Took three shots at us and the car behind us with our bodyguards radioed, they're shooting, they're shooting. I heard three whooshes and three pings behind it. Ping, ping, ping. And we all thought in the car that it was just rocks popping off the the wheels. But actually it was a sniper.

So, you know, there, there was a lot of that. It was very intense.

Manya:

Did you wear flak jackets?

Vladislav:

Yeah, well, we took 'em off in the car. When, when you're on the front line, you wear everything, but when you get out of the front line, and you're just driving back, you don't wanna drive around with it, so you just take it off in the car. And that's exactly when they started shooting us. Yeah. They would've gotten us, if they'd been a little bit luckier.

Manya:

Well, you moderated a panel at the Kiev Jewish Forum last week. Our CEO, Ted Deutch and AJC Europe Director Simone Rodan-Benzaquen, were also there.

Your panel focused on the new Ukraine. What does that mean, the new Ukraine? What does that look like?

Vladislav:

Thank you for asking about that. Let me start with talking a little bit about that conference. Along with Mr. Boris Lozhkin, the head of Ukrainian Jewish Confederation. I put together with Tablet where I'm the European culture correspondent, wonderful, wonderful conference. It is the fourth annual Kiyv Jewish Forum.

It took place in Kiyv for the last three years, but today, obviously this year, it won't be for the obvious reason and we put together a conference so that people understand the issues at stake, understand the position of Ukrainian Jewish community, understand the myriad issues involved with this war.

Just a wonderful, wonderful conference that I really enjoyed working on with remarkable speakers. Running the gamut from Leon Panetta, Boris Johnson. Your own Mr. Deutch. Just wonderful, wonderful speakers. And, six really great panels, and 20 wonderful one-on-one interviews with really interesting people.

So please go to the website of the Kiev Jewish Forum or Tablet Magazine and/or YouTube, and you'll find some really interesting content, some really interesting conversations, dialogues about the state of war, the state of Ukrainian Jewry, the state of Ukrainian political identity and the new Ukraine.

Manya:

I should tell our listeners, we'll put a link to the Kiyv Jewish Forum in our show notes so that they can easily access it. But yeah, if you don't mind just kinda elaborating a little bit about what, what does the new Ukraine look like?

Vladislav:

Well, we're gonna see what the new Ukraine will look like after the Russians are driven out of the country. It's gonna look completely different. The demographic changes, the political changes, the cultural changes will play out for decades and maybe a hundred years. These are historical events, which will have created traumatic changes to the country and to Eastern Europe, not just to Ukraine, but all of eastern Europe. From along the entire crescent, from Baltics to Poland, down to Hungary, through Moldova, Belarus. Everything will be changed by this war. This is a world historical situation that will have radically, radically changed everything.

And so Ukraine as a political nation has changed dramatically over the last seven years since the Maidan revolution. And it's obviously changed a lot since the start of the war a year ago. It's a completely different country in many ways.

Now, the seeds of that change were put into place by the political process of the last couple of years, by civil society, by a deep desire of the resilient Ukrainian political nation to change, to become better, to transform the country. But for the most part, the war is the thing that will change everything. And that means creating a new political nation. What that will look like at the end of this, that's hard to say.

A lot of these values are deeply embedded. I know it's unfashionably essentialist to talk about national character traits, but you know, again, I'm an Eastern European, so I can get away with a lot of things that people can't here. And there are such things as national character traits.

A nation is a collection of people who live together in a particular way and have particular ways of life and particular values. Different countries live in different ways and different nations, different people have different traits. Just like every person has a different trait and some are good and some are bad, and some are good in certain situations, bad in other situations.

And everyone has positive traits and negative traits. And you know, Ukraine like everyone else, every other nation has positive traits. Those traits of: loving freedom, being resilient, wanting to survive, coming together in the times of war are incredibly generative in the middle of this conflict.

One of the interesting things about this conflict that is shown, the way that all the different minorities in the country, and it's a country full of all kinds of people, all sorts of minorities. Not just Jews, but Greeks and Crimean Tatars, Muslims, Gagauz, Turkish speaking Christians in my own Odessa region, Poles on the Polish border, Lithuanian Belarus speakers on the Belarusian border.

People who are of German descent, though there are a lot fewer of them since World War II. All sorts of different people live in Ukraine and they've come together as a political nation in order to fight together, in a liberal and democratic way. Whereas Russia's also an empire of many different kinds of people, And it's also been brought together through autocratic violence and authoritarian, centralized control.

This is a war of minorities in many ways, and so a lot of the men dying from the Russian side are taken from the minority regions like Dagestan, Borodyanka, Chechnya. Disproportionate number of the men dying from the Russian side are also minorities, disproportionate to their share of the Russian Federation's population.

In some circles it's a well known fact, one of the military hospitals on the Russian side, at a certain point, the most popular name amongst wounded soldiers, was Mohammed. They were Muslim minorities, from Dagestan, other places. There are a lot of Muslims in Russia.

Manya:

That is truly a heartbreaking detail.

Vladislav:

And they're the ones that are the poorest and they're the ones who are being mobilized to fight Ukrainians.

Manya:

So you're saying that literally the face of Ukraine, and the personality, the priorities of the nation have been changed by this war. Ukrainians have become, what, more patriotic, more militant? Militant sounds … I'm afraid that has a bad connotation.

Vladislav:

No, militant's great. You know, Marshall virtues. . . that's good. Militant is, you know, that's an aggressive word.

Marshall virtues is a good word. Surviving virtues. It's amazing the way Ukrainian flags have encapsulated a kind of patriotism in the western world, which was in many ways unthinkable for large swaths of the advanced population. I mean, you see people who would never in a million years wave an American or British or French flag in Paris, London, and New York and Washington, wave around Ukrainian flags.

Patriotism, nationalism have very bad connotations now in our decadent post-industrial West, and, Ukrainians have somehow threaded that needle of standing up for remarkable values, for our civilization, for our security alliances after the war, for the democratic world order that we, that we as Americans and Western Europeans have brought large swaths of the world, while also not becoming really unpleasantly, jingoistic. While not going into,  racism for the most part, while not going into, for the most part into unnecessary prejudices.

They fight and they have the best of traditional conservative values, but they're also quite liberal in a way that no one else in eastern Europe is. It's very attractive.

Manya:

They really are unified for one cause. 

You mentioned being shot at on the front lines of this war. This war has not only changed the nation, it has changed you. You've become a war correspondent in addition to the arts and culture correspondent you've been for so many years. And you've continued to report on the arts throughout this horrific year. 

How has this war shaped Ukrainian artists, its literary community, its performing arts, sports?  

Vladislav:

First of all, unlike in the west, in, in Eastern Europe. I mean, these are broad statements, but for the most part, in advanced western democracies, the ruling classes have developed different lifestyles and value systems from much of the population.

We're not gonna get into why that is the case, but I, as a insider-outsider, I see that. It's not the case in Eastern Europe yet, and certainly not in Ukraine. The people who rule the country and are its elites, they are the same culturally, identity wise as the people that they rule over.

So the entire, let's say ruling elite and intelligentsia, artistic class. They have kids or sons or husbands or nephews at war. If we went to war now in America, much of the urban population would not have a relative who died. If a hundred thousand Americans died right now would not be, you would probably not know 10 people who died, or 15 people who died.

Manya:

It's not the same class system.

Vladislav:

Correct. America and the western world, let's say western European world from Canada down to the old, let's say Soviet borders or Polish borders, they have developed a class system, a caste system that we don't have.

You could be a billionaire, and still hang out with your best friend from high school who was a worker or a bus driver. That doesn't happen here so often, for various reasons. And so a larger proportion of the intelligentsia and the artistic classes went to fight than you would expect.

I know so many writers and artists and painters, filmmakers who have gone off to fight. A lot, in fact, I'd say swabs of the artist elite went off to fight. And that's very different from here. And this will shape the arts when they come back. Already you have some really remarkable, interesting things happening in, in painting. Not cinema because cinema's expensive and they're not really making movies in the middle of a war. Certain minor exceptions.

There's going to be a lot, a lot of influence on the arts for a very long time. A lot of very interesting art will come out of it and the intelligentsia will be strengthened in some ways, but the country's losing some of its best people. Some of its very, very, very best people across the professions are being killed.

You know, dozens of athletes who would've been competing next year in the '24 Olympics in Paris are dead on the front lines. Every week I open up my Twitter on my Facebook or my social media and I see another athlete, you know, pro skater or a skier or  Cross Country runner or someone who is this brilliant 19, 20 year old athlete who's supposed to compete next year, has just been killed outside of Bakhmut or just been killed outside of Kherson or just been killed outside of Sloviansk or something like this.

You read continuously and there's a picture of this beautiful, lovely, young person. who will never compete next year for a gold medal at the Olympics. You see continuously people with economics degrees, people who went to art school being killed at the front. So just as the army, as the Ukrainian army has lost a lot of its best men, a lot of its most experienced soldiers have been killed recently in Bakhmut and in other places, the intelligentsia is taking a wide scale hit.

Imagine like 20-30% of America's writers, artists, people who went to art school getting killed at the front or something like that. I don't have statistics, but 10 to 15, 20%.

Can you imagine that? What would that do to the society over the long term, If some of its best writers, people who won Pulitzer prizes, people who won national book awards wound up going to the army and getting killed?

Manya:

When this war ends…

Vladislav:

When we win, when we win.

Manya:

When you win, will there be a Ukrainian Jewish community like there was before? What do you see as the future of the Ukrainian Jewish community and how do you think the trauma of this conflict will impact that community?

Vladislav:

There will be a Jewish Ukrainian community, whether there will be a Russian Jewish community remains to be seen. There will be survivors of the community. A lot of people will go back, we'll rebuild. We will get our demographics back. A lot of people in Ukraine will have already stayed where they're going.

There are already a lot of people who have left and after a year their kids got into a school somewhere in the Czech Republic or France or Germany. They're not coming back. There will be a lot of people who will have roots somewhere else.

Within the community, certain cities, Jewish life will die out.

What was left of the Lugansk, Donetsk Jewish communities is gone now. What was left of Donetsk Jewry is gone. There were a lot of Jews in Mariupol, thousands of Jews. Many of them who survived World War II. Certainly the Mariupol Jewish community has no future. None. Absolutely none. For the obvious reasons. The demographics of the Jewish communities have all changed and we're gonna see over time how all this plays out and sorts itself out.

A lot of Jews from Odessa went into Moldova and they will come back. A lot of Jews from Dnipro have been displaced, although the city has not been touched. And they had the biggest Jewish community of like 65-70,000 Jews in Dnipro, and the wealthiest Jewish community and the best financed, the most synagogues.

I actually went, before the battle of Sievierodonetsk, I went and I asked the rabbi of Dnipro for his blessing, cause I knew it was going to be a bloodbath. I didn't really want to die, so, you know, I'll try anything once. and it worked. Proofs in the pudding. I'm still here. He's done tremendous work in order to help Jewish communities there.

One of the interesting parts of this is that little Jewish communities that had been ethnically cleansed by the Holocaust, which were on their way to dying, which did not have enough Jews in order to reproduce on a long timeline in Western Ukraine. Now because of the influx of Jews from other parts of the country, from the south especially and from the east, now have enough Jews in order for them to continue on.

I don't know if anyone knows the numbers and it's too early to say. Places like Lviv had a couple of hundred Jews. They now have several thousand. There are at least three or four minor towns that I can think of in Western Ukraine, which were historically Jewish towns. which did not after the Holocaust, after, Soviet and Post-soviet immigration have enough of a Jewish population in order to have a robust community a hundred years from now, they now do.

Now that is a mixed blessing. But the demographics of Jews inside Ukraine have changed tremendously. Just that the demographics of everything in Ukraine has changed tremendously when 40% of a population have moved from one place to another. 8 million refugees, something like 25- 40% of the country are IDPs.

Lots of Jews from my part of Ukraine, from the South, have moved to West Ukraine. And those communities, now they're temporary, but nothing is permanent as a temporary solution, as the saying goes. I think Chernowitz, which never had the opportunity, I really love their Jewish community and they're great. And the rabbi and the head of community is a wonderful man.

It did not seem to me, the three or four times that I'd visited before the war, Chernowitz, where my family's from, that this is a city that has enough Jews or Jewish institutional life to continue in 50 years. It does now. Is that a good thing, I don't know. That's a different question, but it's certainly changed some things, for those cities.

Manya:

Vladislav, thank you. Thank you for your moving reports and for joining us here in the studio. It has been such a privilege to speak with you. Please stay safe.

Vladislav:

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. It's really great to check in with you again one year after the last time we spoke. 

Unpack the findings from AJC's State of Antisemitism in America 2022 report on young U.S. Jews, including those on college campuses, with the Senior Director of AJC's Alexander Young Leadership Department, Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman. We also hear from Northwestern University student Lily Cohen, whose efforts to encourage constructive dialogue following a disturbing antisemitic encounter on her college campus has sparked hostility, friendship, and above all, a renewed sense of Jewish pride.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

___

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman and Lily Cohen

___

Show Notes:

Read:

• AJC's State of Antisemtism in America Report 2022

• Take this quiz to test your knowledge of how antisemitism impacts America and its Jewish population

• Cohen: I am more proud of my Jewish identity than anyone can ever hate me for it
  

Listen: 

• Our most recent podcast episode: Breaking Down the Headlines from Israel: From Secretary Blinken's Visit, to Terror Attacks, Protests, and More

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

____

Transcript of Interview with Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman and Lily Cohen

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

This week, AJC released its State of Antisemitism in America 2022 report, its fourth annual look at the perceptions of antisemitism among American Jews and the American public. So much has happened since AJC launched the annual survey in 2019, one year after the mass shooting at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, and so much has been learned, given the rise of antisemitism and anti-Zionism on college campuses. This year survey included new questions directed toward current and recent college students and their parents. Here to discuss the findings of those questions and more is an occasional guest host of this podcast, Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman. AJC 's Senior Director of the Alexander Young Leadership department. Meggie, thank you for bringing your expertise to that side of the mic.

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

Thanks for having me. Manya.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

And with Meggie to share her own personal experience with antisemitism on campus. This school here is Lily Cohen, a junior at Northwestern University, whose efforts to encourage constructive dialogue on her college campus has sparked both hostility and friendship. Lily, welcome to People of the Pod.

Lily Cohen: 

Thanks, Manya. Happy to be here.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So, Meggie, I want to start with you. If you could please share with our listeners why this annual report is important, and what some of the more significant findings were?

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

Thanks, Manya. So part of what makes our survey really unique is we're both looking at how antisemitism affects the lives, of the actions of American Jews, but we also compare that to how the American general public perceives that threat. And over the last year, it really feels like we're experiencing a surge in antisemitism that's particularly affecting young Jews within the campus space. But to actually gain a better understanding, we specifically surveyed those who are current students, or recent graduates, or parents of current students. And what we found supports those feelings, it really provides data, and in certain areas, unfortunately, a more dire picture.

Some of our topline findings are: more than a third of current or recent Jewish college students encountered challenges on campus related to their Jewish identity. And what we found is that growing antisemitism is affecting the behaviors and decisions of young Jews today, both in person and online. One out of every five Jewish college students reported feeling unsafe on their university campus because of their Jewish identity. A staggering 85% of U.S. Jews between the ages of 18 to 29 have seen or were themselves targets of antisemitism online.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

85%, wow, that is staggering. How much of that had to do with students' support for the existence of Israel? Or was that a separate finding?

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

I would say this is intrinsically linked to what we will hear from Lily, is that there's pushback students experienced when publicly supporting Israel, 14% say they have felt or have been excluded from a campus event or group because of assumed or actual connection to Israel. So these findings really speak to that level of fear and intimidation that we can't allow to become normalized on the college campus.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Of course, AJC has been doing this report for four years, the questions for college students, about the college experience were new this year. But what are some of the constants that keep emerging each year that AJC does the report?

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

The constant, which is an unfortunate one, to be frank, is that antisemitism remains a real problem in American society. We found that 41% of American Jews reported the status of Jews being less secure than a year ago. That's 10 percentage points higher than 2021. That's a big number, a big jump. One in five feel unsafe when attending Jewish institutions with which they're affiliated. You mentioned what changed. And I think a reality is that the growing rate and feelings of antisemitism are creating a broader awareness within the American ecosystem. So over nine in 10 U.S. adults say that antisemitism is a problem for everyone and affects society as a whole. Fewer adults this year have discussed never hearing or knowing the term antisemitism, that went down from 16% in 2021, to nine this year.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Meggie, in January of last year, someone entered a synagogue and Colleyville, Texas, and there was a hostage situation. Many people heard about this in the news, how did that affect people's anxieties when responding to this survey?

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

Yeah, so that's something we asked about specifically. And the reality there is that it both increased concern around antisemitism within the Jewish community, while simultaneously raising awareness in broader society. And for those who might not remember all the details of that really harrowing experience, someone came into Congregation Beth Israel in Colleyville, Texas, a group was doing Shabbat services like so many of us do. He then took Rabbi Cytron-Walker and other Jewish worshipers hostage for 11 hours. And that motive, which is a really important part for us to understand here, was the release of someone named Aafia Siddiqui, herself in prison on terror charges, because he thought that due to antisemitic beliefs in Jewish control, that Jews would be able to make her release possible. And that false notion that Jews control media, banks, governments, that antisemitic conspiracy theory showcases how theories like that move into tangible threat. And of course, the heroism of Rabbi Cytron-Walker ultimately allowed for his escape and the escape of his fellow Jews inside.

But that was a harrowing experience for Jews in this country and something where it felt like it could have been any of us. And our data shows that. So for American Jews who had heard of Colleyville, were aware of it, the majority said it made them feel less safe today. One in five American Jewish respondents feel unsafe attending Jewish institutions that they are affiliated with, because of fears of antisemitism. I personally think about that when I drop my daughter off at Jewish daycare. And I know I'm not alone in that. So the reality of the attack and growing attacks, just like in Colleyville, is that it's both adding very real fears to American Jewry, while simultaneously leading to increased awareness of antisemitism within the broader American public.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

As counterintuitive as it might seem, the finding that more people, more adults have heard the term and know the definition of antisemitism. That's actually a good thing when you can't take a stand against something or avoid it if you don't know what it is. And I think part of that awareness was because of Colleyville. But also because of the many other issues that were in the headlines. Kanye West's very high profile, antisemitic tirades, Kyrie Irving's endorsement of an antisemitic film, the FBI warning that was issued to New Jersey synagogues, including my own back in the fall. And in fact, this survey research was done during that time period, correct?

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

Yes, exactly. And I think Manya, that kind of reality or that predicament, however you want to look at it is exactly right. So both of those incidents, like you mentioned, both with Kanye and with Kyrie Irving happened while our survey was in the field. So, you know, my presumption is that they really did raise awareness on these issues. And that's reflected in our data.

We also saw that after, we saw that with celebrities speaking out, we saw it with the NBA's response to Kyrie. What also can't be overlooked with Kanye specifically and I'll also say particularly before he had his kind of like broader cultural downfall, there today or something like 15 million Jews here across the world. Kanye, before his Twitter was banned had 30 million followers. His reach can't be stated enough, especially when we have cultural figures, who are peddling deeply antisemitic tropes. And I think our data shows that. Our data shows that that bleeds over into the broader American public.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

I want to talk a little bit about the statistics, the findings, about how young people seemed especially affected by these fears by these anxieties, and actually experienced more of the hate out there, than adults our age, older than 30, that is, right?

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

So that was a feeling that many of us had going into the survey, but it was just that: a feeling. And one of the profound things about this year's survey is that we were able to understand empirically, not just anecdotally, that American Jews are experiencing antisemitism differently than other generations, often at a higher rate. So among young Jews 18 to 29, who experienced antisemitism online, one in four said that that online encounter made them feel physically threatened. That's compared to only 14% in the over 30 set. We found that 85% of American Jews are experienced antisemitism online or on social media, as compared to only 64% of Jews who are in that over 30 set.

And I think what's also really important here is that these anxieties are leading to behavioral changes within Jewish college students. And these are often changes that they feel forced to make. So one in five current or recent students avoided wearing items that could identify them as Jewish. 18% felt uncomfortable or unsafe at a campus event because they were Jewish. And I think students feel singled out for who they are and what they believe in. That's not okay.

More colleges and universities need to acknowledge and ensure that Jewish students feel safe and are protected. And also, our data shows that young students are noticing they feel unseen, almost six and 10 of Jewish young adults think antisemitism is taken less seriously than other forms of hate. And I hope that's a number that people hold on to because if we're creating and have a generation who feel unseen, clearly more work needs to be done by broader society.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Lily, this is probably a good time to bring you in since we're talking about your peers. You are a junior at Northwestern University in suburban Chicago, my old stomping ground. You started attending there nearly three years ago, what have you witnessed since you arrived?

Lily Cohen: 

Something that I have noticed frequently over the past about two and a half years was this sense on campus, similar to what Meggie was talking about, of Jewish students feeling a little bit concerned sometimes about sharing all of the parts of their Jewish identity specifically when it came to talking about Israel. And the other side of this was seeing a lot of sort of activist students on campus, very active and vocally anti-Israel, and sort of creating a climate that made it uncomfortable for Jewish students to be loudly and proudly in support of Israel. And the result of that, that I noticed among a lot of my friends, was sort of shying away from maybe posting when they were traveling to Israel, or posting in support of Israel.

And a lot of this was on social media. But as things have moved back in person on campus, as we've come out of the pandemic, I think a lot of both the anti-Israel activism and the fears about displaying our pride in our Judaism and in supporting the State of Israel, have also sort of turned more in person. And so in a lot of senses, this has looked like anti-Israel students on campus, adorning walls and different areas of campus with phrases like 'from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,' calling Israel an apartheid state, calling it a genocidal state, and equating Zionists of all forms- American Zionists, and Israelis in the IDF and the Israeli government- sort of as one. And so I think that has likely contributed to a lot of the statistics that Meggie was mentioning, just because all of this combined is making, at least in my case of what I've noticed here, it's making at least my college campus feel like a more hostile environment for Jewish students.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So when you first arrived, almost three years ago, were you expecting that level of hostility? And did you feel compelled to speak up, or not so much?

Lily Cohen: 

Quite honestly, coming in, I didn't expect this as much because I'd spoken to a lot of Jewish students before getting to campus. And I had asked them what their experiences had been like. And if they had seen or witnessed or experienced antisemitism on campus, and very few of them really had anything to share. Some of them mentioned that sometimes Israel comes up in conversation, and some people agree with you, and some people don't. But it didn't really seem to be as pressing of an issue. But then early on my freshman year, in the fall, before I was even on campus, since we were at home, online, for COVID reasons, there was some action going on on campus. It ended up becoming this complicated thing. But the organization that had organized this action, which originally had nothing to do with Israel, with antisemitism, with anti-Zionism, but this organization came out sort of against all forms of hate. And in that list of types of hatred, included both antisemitism and Zionism, and sort of saying that both of those were very problematic and hateful ideologies. And this was kind of before I had a Northwestern community at all, I was still in my childhood bedroom in New Jersey, kind of watching this unfold on social media, and especially seeing this happen for the first time before I had a community and while I was not even on campus, I very much shied away from speaking up.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So what changed this year to break your silence?

Lily Cohen: 

I think it was sort of just by nature of this is my third year here, my second year now fully in person. So I feel pretty established in my communities, the organizations I'm a part of, especially the ones sort of outside of Hillel and the Jewish spaces, which were the ones that I was originally more hesitant to be publicly pro-Israel in. I'm a little bit less worried about the backlash, because I know that I have foundations in a lot of great communities on campus that know me, for me, know and like who I am. And that won't necessarily jump to judgments about me once I started talking about these things that are important to me.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

I want to talk about a very specific incident that happened to you in the fall. But before we do, Meggie, I want to ask you, if that's typical, what Lily is describing?

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

Well, I don't know if I can necessarily divide it based on where you are within your undergraduate career. But I do think the one part that is very true, and I think similar is that it takes a lot of courage to speak up. And I think often we forget that we think exactly like you outlined, like you see something antisemitic, of course, you would speak up. But you know what, when you are in that instance, right, especially if you don't have people around you to provide that community and support. That's a really lonely place to be, right? And it takes a lot of courage to say, I'm going to raise my hand, I'm going to call this out, whether it comes with social kind of isolation in certain places, whether it comes with professional conflict, which you know, of course, we would hope does not, but you cited certain student groups, that's been the experience of some. And I think, I always say that all not in any way to discourage I hope I'm encouraging people to follow your bravery. But just to zoom out for a moment and say, our student leaders on campus who speak up for what's right, deserve a whole lot of credit, and really are showcasing a lot of courage.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So kudos to you, Lily, because you have been very outspoken this year at Northwestern, especially after a particular incident last fall, can you tell listeners about the rock, what it symbolizes on Northwestern campus, kind of what the customs are in terms of of respecting free speech and different messaging, and what happened.

Lily Cohen: 

So, that messaging that I'd mentioned earlier, that students have frequently been adorning around campus, such as 'from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,' I saw coming up a lot more this past fall, the fall of 2022. We have a rock on campus that is sort of a symbol of free speech. So the idea is that student groups can paint the rock with whatever message it is they want to share. So whether that is to advertise an event or to spread awareness about an issue. And there are some unwritten rules and traditions about the rock, specifically that student groups, in order to paint the rock, have to camp out and guard the rock for 24 hours beforehand. In the fall, I had been part of a group of students that a couple of days before the midterm elections, we painted the rock, encouraging passers-by to vote with gun safety and reproductive rights in mind.

I believe it was five or six hours later, we saw that another group was painting over our message on the rock. And the language that our rock painting was being covered with was indeed this, 'from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,' and a lot of those other similar phrases. And that I think, was part of what really motivated me to write the piece that I wrote, just the fact that it was this time covering up something that I had worked to create, really hit me in a different way and motivated my decision to ultimately publish something very publicly talking about my Jewish identity and my connection to Israel and how that specific phrase that is around campus a lot is hurtful to me as a Jewish student.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

You did write a column for The Daily Northwestern, which is the campus newspaper there, and we'll put a link to that column in our show notes for listeners to read. And in that column. I thought it was quite lovely, the way that you framed it. It really talked about, it really comes across as a love letter to your Jewish traditions, your Jewish values, your Jewish upbringing, your Jewish pride that you hold quite dear. And you also did call on the university to condemn the slogan 'From the river to the sea' as an antisemitic slogan, and you explained why. I'm curious, Meggie do other activists and college students frame the response, or frame their explanations, their fight against antisemitism in a similar way to how Lily did it?

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

Well, I think, you know, the responses to antisemitism certainly vary, first of all, for anyone who has not read it yet, Lily's piece is beautiful. And I think Manya, you put it just right, where it is really a love letter to what the beauty of Judaism on campus can be. The reason why I think that is so important. And it is an equation within antisemitism that we have to think about is, you know, at the start of our conversation, we were talking about a lot of statistics, a lot of things that can feel, that are indeed actually quite concerning for Jewish students today. What happened to Lily, which we'll get to after that, too, is quite concerning. But part of also, Jewish peoplehood, is that, yes, we need to acknowledge the real challenges that exists, if not, our silence is normalizing it.

But it's actually the most Jewish of ways to say there are challenges. But also we're going to talk about vibrancy, we're going to talk about the power of our community. We're going to talk about the beauty that Judaism is and we're not going to let other people, including people actually, who not only want to limit our voices, but actually want to be detrimental to the Jewish experience, we're not going to let them do that. And I think, Lily, in particular in what you wrote, you capture just that, of acknowledging that campus life for most Jews is indeed really vibrant and thriving. Again, we're not glossing over the real challenges that you know, doing that enters a space for normalization, normalizing antisemitism, which none of us are in any way giving any legitimacy to. But we do need to remember that there's so much joy and positivity within Jewish life on campus.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So yes, as Meggie alluded to, this is not the end of the story. I would love to say that framing it in that context kind of kept the opposing voices and the naysayers from lashing out. But it didn't. Let's tell listeners what happened, Lily.

Lily Cohen:

So pretty immediately after I published my op-ed, as I had sort of expected, there was this first wave of social media backlash. In these tweets, I was called a terrorist, a colonizer, I was called violent, I was called a white supremacist, I was called an array of expletives. And this immediate backlash was really just students who don't know me, jumping to assumptions about me, making judgments about my character, and taking attacks at my character, solely for this one part of my piece, which was that I found this phrase 'from the river to the sea,' to be problematic, and to be sort of at odds with my Jewish identity and my comfort as a Jewish student on campus. And while I had hoped that sort of cushioning this within this piece, really about how much I love being Jewish, and how much I love being able to share that on campus, unfortunately, that still wasn't enough to avoid all of the negative response.

After the social media had started dying down a little bit, and the weekend was coming. And I was feeling like by Monday, most people would have forgotten about this, especially those who had a problem with it, and we would move on. Unfortunately, that was not the case. And early Monday morning, I received a call from one of my friends that there had been a banner put up on the main street of our campus in front of the library that was made up of about 40 copies of my article, and painted over all of those copies was the phrase 'from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,' in red paint. It wasn't just a banner sort of in response to my op-ed, but it was directly targeted at me and my words, because they put it on top of my name and my words.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Not everyone who disagreed handled it this way, right. The daily Northwestern also published a column by a senior by the name of Hamza Mahmood, who disagreed with always condemning that slogan from the river to the sea. Can you talk a little bit about your interaction with him and how it went beyond the counter column?

Lily Cohen: 

Part of what I was trying to do with publishing my piece was find the people willing to have conversations on campus. And because while there is sort of this echo chamber of the very vocally anti-Israel voices, especially on Twitter and putting up these messages around campus, I know that there are students here that are willing to engage, but I just haven't been able to find them. And it really was a very respectful piece. The place where it sort of diverged a little bit, not from respect, but just from what I had written, was that he had a different understanding of the phrase 'from the river to the sea' and had a different opinion about what activists were intending when they were putting it up around campus.

And I read his piece and wanted to reach out, we grabbed coffee a couple of days later, and we very quickly bonded. Before we even got to talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, about activism on campus, about literally anything related, we just got to know each other as people. He's a Muslim student, I'm obviously a Jewish student, one of the first conversations we had was about how we both don't eat pork. And we bonded over that. And when we did get to the topic of conversation that had brought us together in the first place, and we started talking about our different understandings of what that phrase means, though I didn't agree with him, and though he didn't agree with me, we asked each other questions, we really tried to understand each other's perspectives. And so I walked away from that coffee, not feeling frustrated that I hadn't changed his mind, but feeling grateful that I had had a conversation with someone that was both willing to listen, and willing to share.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

I'm curious, did he have thoughts on that banner? Did he have thoughts on the response, including that banner?

Lily Cohen: 

He did think that it was completely wrong. He thought it was bullying. He thought it was absolutely terrible that anyone would do that. But he wasn't completely convinced that it was an act of antisemitism, more than just an act of bullying and disrespect.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So Meggie, I'm curious, in terms of allies on campus, do college students share similar stories of having difficulty finding the allies on campus? And what advice do you have for students who are searching for those people who aren't necessarily going to agree, but are at least willing to listen?

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

First of all, what a beautiful story, and Lily, I think, Manya to your question, it's, I think, indicative by the way of campus culture today, but I also think of our broader society, right? Where dialogue I mean, let's go back to campus. Campus is supposed to be the bastion of free exchange of ideas, right? That is often where most people come and experience people who are from different walks of life. But for that to work, you need to have an environment where that dialogue, where open exchange is accepted.

And I think what we're seeing on campus, and within the broader society, you mentioned, Twitter. Twitter's probably the most extreme of this, of that, even if the number of people are small, the loud voices dominate. And often those voices they want silo, right? They don't want to sit down, they don't want to actually have that exchange. And I think kind of the power in the calling for all of us, Jewish students included, on campus, and in broader society, is to find those allies, those friends, those partners, who do want to sit down and have actual conversation, even if-and this is a part I think we all need to get behind-even if you know they're not the ones who are on the quads screaming the loudest, making the biggest show, you know, finding people who will actually talk and build those bridges with you is really important.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Finally, Lily, I want to ask you about your winter break, during which you went to Israel, with other college students from across the country. And you felt a little differently about sharing pictures and posts from your trip than they did as a result of this incident, if I'm not mistaken. Can you share a little bit about that?

Lily Cohen: 

I think one of the best things, I guess, to come out of this situation is sort of the sense of relief that I'm not hiding this part of myself anymore. And so when I went on Birthright over winter break, I had no hesitations about sharing pictures on social media showing that I was in Israel, because I had kind of already ripped the band aid off on that one. I had already sort of announced to everyone at least at Northwestern that I support Israel's existence. Whereas both speaking with other students on my trip and with Northwestern students in years past, there has been a different sense of comfort with sharing that information about going to and spending time in Israel. For example, over the summer, there were a lot of Northwestern students in Israel on a variety of different programs or just traveling there with friends. And going back to Twitter, there were tweets about people making lists of all of the Northwestern students that were partying in Israel.

I was on a trip with students from several different schools, and so I found that many of my friends on the trip who go to different schools, were very hesitant to share with peers from their school, that they were in Israel, and that they were on Birthright, because they were worried about how it would be received and how they would be treated sort of in response to that. Whereas I think one thing that the whole experience I went through in the fall sort of helped with was, I didn't have to worry about that anymore. I just didn't feel like I needed to hide anymore, that I would spend time in Israel, that I was there, and that I was having a great time there.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Meggie, does that reflect what the survey found as well, when it comes to college students and young adults on social media? Are they also hesitant to post?

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

Yeah, well, what we found certainly within the campus space is that over one in 10, college students feel like they have been penalized, for doing just that for talking about their ties with Israel. I would say, Lily, I keep singing your praises, but they're deserved. I hope that more and more students can get to the place that you're at now, where no one should have to hide part of their identity. And again, acknowledging that in certain environments, it can be daunting, but there are kind of two lenses.

One just in principle, we shouldn't be in a position in 2023, where any Jewish student should feel like they have to hide who they are, because of repercussions. The second part is, I'm not denying that that happens in certain corners. But I think what's so important, and your story speaks to this, both through Hillel, both through the friendships you've made with some people because of it, find your community. Find your community so that you're not standing alone. And I think that's a really important step.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

And not just on social media. Don't just find the community on Twitter or on Facebook, find it on the ground.

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

In-person community. Exactly. Thanks, Manya.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Well, Meggie, Lily, thank you both for joining us to talk about the data for putting a voice to it. These are not just numbers and statistics. Lily, they are you and your peers and our people, our peers. So thank you both so much for having this conversation.

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: 

Thanks, Manya. It was a pleasure.

Lily Cohen: 

Thanks for having me.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Think you know the state of antisemitism in America? Take AJC's quiz and test your knowledge of how antisemitism impacts America and its Jewish population. Find it at ajc.org/antisemitismreport2022. We'll include a link in our show notes. And if you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with AJC Paris director Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache, about France's most recent upgrades to its plan for fighting antisemitism.

France just released its latest national plan for combating antisemitism. AJC Paris Director Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache joins us to break down this new initiative, share how French Jews are impacted by rising antisemitism, and give us a behind-the-scenes look at the role AJC played in helping craft the plan. In April 2015, AJC praised the French government for launching its first comprehensive plan to fight antisemitism and racism, and a year earlier for establishing the position of Inter-ministerial Delegate to Fight Racism and Antisemitism, reporting directly to the prime minister. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

___

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache

___

Show Notes:

Read:

• AJC Paris Welcomes Updated National Action Plan to Combat Racism, Antisemitism, and Discrimination in France

Listen: 

• Our most recent podcast episode: Breaking Down the Headlines from Israel: From Secretary Blinken's Visit, to Terror Attacks, Protests, and More

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

The Jerusalem Post's Lahav Harkov joins us this week to help us understand all of the big news from Israel, from U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken's visit, to rocket attacks from Gaza, terror attacks in Jerusalem, ultimatums from Russia, massive protests, and proposed changes to Israel's Law of Return. Harkov is the senior contributing editor and diplomatic correspondent for The Jerusalem Post.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Lahav Harkov

___

Show Notes:

Read:

• What You Need to Know About the Palestinian Terror Attacks in Jerusalem

Listen: 

• Our most recent podcast episode: Surviving the Unimaginable: A Child's Story of the Holocaust

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

This week, US Secretary of State Antony Blinken arrived in Jerusalem as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu dealt with more rocket fire from terrorists in Gaza, ultimatums from Moscow, and protests to propose judicial reforms and changes to Israel's Law of Return. Here to share what she sees and hears on the ground is Lahav Harkov, senior contributing editor and diplomatic correspondent for The Jerusalem Post. Lahav, welcome back to People of the Pod. 

Lahav Harkov: 

Hi. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So let's begin with the visit by Blinken. His jaunt to Jerusalem was on the calendar for a while. But given the escalation of violence in recent days, and the Cabinet support for legalizing more settlements, did Blinken's agenda change?

Lahav Harkov: 

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that you know, it's updated according to whatever is going on at the time, he has to be, you know, have his finger on the pulse. And so the issue of terrorism did come up. And he did make some really important remarks, just about how horrific it is and how just completely unacceptable it is to attack a place of worship, as a Palestinian terrorist did on Friday night. But of course, that was followed by another terrorist attack the next morning, in which two people were killed.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So his original agenda included a strategy of how to deal with the nuclear situation in Iran. Can you kind of update us on where Israel stands on that situation right now and how it's dealing with hostilities from Iran?

Lahav Harkov: 

Yeah, you know, it's not so different from what it was in the previous government, right. There's some nuances that are different, but overall, Netanyahu opposes the Iran deal. But that deal is not so much on the table anymore anyway. Netanyahu openly says that Israel has done things to stop Iran from developing certain weapons, which seems to be a hint at an attack in Isfahan, which is a city in Iran, in what apparently was a drone manufacturing site. But of course, Netanyahu would not get into that level of detail. But there's been reports, it was first reported in The Wall Street Journal, that it was Israel that did it, sort of in coordination with the US.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In other words, taking matters into Israel's own hands and taking care of the situation within Iran.

Lahav Harkov:  

All the reports say generally that it is in coordination with the US. So you know, Israel is doing it. But I guess you could say Israel is taking matters into its own hands, but it's not acting, like at cross-purposes with the US.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So was there progress made in the conversations between Netanyahu and Blinken? I mean, are the United States and Israel still on the same page when it comes to Iran or were there sticking points?

Lahav Harkov: 

Overall, I think that Netanyahu would like a more aggressive approach to Iran. You know, more sanctions, more willingness to strike, but I think that they're still in a good place. Overall, they're sort of, again, working towards similar purposes, working in the same direction. It's not a point, you know, if Netanyahu was Prime Minister, I don't know, a year ago, and the Biden administration was really actively pursuing the Iran deal something Netanyahu thinks is a great danger to Israel and in the world. That's not where we are, right.

The Biden administration has all but dropped the deal. And with the massive protests and the violent suppression by the regime, you know, the Biden administration is not in a place where it's looking to cut Tehran any slack. So, the differences, I guess, are, maybe they're not small, but they're not as big as they could have been, even just six months ago. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So another topic that Blinken had hoped to discuss this week was diplomatic relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia. I don't know what that did end up on the agenda as significantly as was intended, but how likely is that to happen? And if it's likely, what's the timeline and what are the caveats?

Lahav Harkov: 

So I think it's very premature to talk about a timeline. The Saudis themselves, in any public statement, when the top officials are asked about this issue, they say that there needs to be some sort of movement on the Palestinian file before there can be peace with the Saudis. That being said, that was the case for the entire Arab world for the past 23 years or so, and yet Israel established relations with four different Arab countries in 2020.

And so it's possible that Netanyahu can once again make the seemingly impossible happen. And certainly, you know, I think we saw maybe a baby step in that direction after Friday night's terrorist attack. One of the countries that condemned that attack was Saudi Arabia, which is not the usual thing. And so that was very interesting. But I still think that it's very premature to be talking about timelines. I don't know when it's gonna happen. But Netanyahu is really, really intent on trying.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

So, Secretary Blinken also hinted that the proposed judicial reforms could undermine Israel's democracy, and that this common connection with the United States, this democratic connection, right. Let's talk about those reforms, which many legal scholars have said, could weaken the Israeli Supreme Court? Can you walk us through those proposed changes and why there's so much concern? And frankly whether that concern is overblown?

Lahav Harkov: 

Yeah, I mean, first of all, I take a little bit of issue with the premise because there certainly were a lot of headlines that said that blinkin said what you said he did. But when you look at what he actually said, which anyone can find on the State Department website. He said that Israel and the US share democratic values.

He said that the sort of very robust debate going on about the judicial issue, but he didn't actually mention the judicial issue, but it was in response to questions about it. And it's sometimes not, but he said the robust debate is indicative of a strong democracy. So none of these things to me sounded like Blinken chiding Israel, I think he was being very cautious. 

And I would be surprised if he did support these judicial reforms, although really, he shouldn't take a position this way or other. But I think that he was a lot more cautious, and a lot more neutral in his statement than the way it had been reported in a lot of places. Now, I understand that behind the scenes, he did express caution. 

But I think the way that this was reported on was sort of slanted and inaccurate, almost everywhere. But moving forward, look, the judicial reform, it goes very far in the opposite direction of where things stand in Israel right now. But where things stand in Israel right now is also extremely unbalanced. You know, you're supposed to have checks and balances between the different parts of government.

And, there's only checks and no balances right now, like the court can really check anything that the government and the Knesset does. But the Knesset and the government have no bearing, no influence practically on what happens. The process of selecting judges, for example, is there's a joint committee, that includes politicians and judges and the Bar Association. And essentially, it's slanted so that the judges have, you know, outsized influence, for example. 

And all kinds of things like that. It takes a really long time to explain it. So I'm not gonna take our whole half hour to explain the judicial reform. But I will say two things. First of all, I often find it deeply ironic when Americans criticize the reform, because certain parts of it will just make it more like America's system. Right? So when people say like, oh, it's not democratic, you know, to have politicians having too much of an influence on the judicial selection process, I think to myself, well, how do you think Supreme Court justices are chosen in America, right? 

And then there's just like, another thing that happens in the Supreme Court in Israel is that you have an extremely broad concept of standing in the court, like an NGO can bring a case before the court, even though they have nothing to do with it. Like let's say, I don't know, an NGO can say that Israel is building on property that actually belongs to Palestinians, even if the Palestinians aren't suing, and haven't spoken to that NGO. 

And in the US, right, the idea of who can have standing before the Supreme Court is much narrower than that. So to me, it's like people are hearing what's being said by certain figures that they like to read or hear from in the media and they're just echoing out without really thinking. That being said, I do think that the reform swings, it does like a one ad, right where you have an extremely powerful judiciary and you want to fix that unjust injustice of an imbalance. 

But this reform, the way it stands now, creates a new imbalance, it's just in the opposite direction. But I think that, Israel's system is built on compromise. We have a coalition system, you have a lot of different parties there. They're sort of push and pull and in the end, you have to agree on something. Now, it's true that this coalition, they all want to make big changes to the courts. 

But I think that in the parliamentary process, which of course, includes the opposition, that they are active parts of the committee that's legislating this reform, I think it will end up more moderate than it is now. 

And you know, and people can debate about the degree right, like to what level should there be reform? Netanyahu says that it's not going to be exactly as it was proposed at first, he says that I will hear the opposition out, and that there will be changes made. I know a lot of people just don't believe him. You know, he is a polarizing figure. But he's not the only person involved with this bill who says that. And so my hope is that that's what will happen in the end. And that, as Blinken, actually himself said, that hopefully they will be able to reach some kind of consensus or if not consensus, than just a broad section of the Knesset working together.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what is fueling the protests? The direction of the imbalances is particularly sensitive. Is it just the polarizing nature of it being a Netanyahu administration? What's fueling the protests?

Lahav Harkov: 

I actually think there's a little bit of both. I think first of all, there is a subsection of the protesters who are genuinely outraged by the reform, and maybe not the concept of reform itself, maybe they think it just goes way too far and puts too much of the power in the hands of the politician, as opposed to the courts.

You know, there are people like that, certainly, you have a lot of figures from the legal world who joined the protest and speak at the various protests. On the other hand, for basically the entire time since we started our whole crisis where we had five elections in four years, there's been protests outside the Prime Minister's residence as Netanyahu was Prime Minister. So you know, almost the entire time, minus a year and a bit.

And there was a protest movement, and it ebbed and flowed. There were bigger protests and smaller protests. But I just think that this is an outgrowth of that. And honestly, it's been every week since the government was formed. I guess that's like six weeks now. And the first protests were not really so focused on the judicial issue, they were focused on other sort of social issues, which that's also something that we could discuss about this government. But, they then shifted to the judiciary, which I think gave them like, an intellectual gloss, sort of, it made it seem more serious than just people who are angry at this government. But I do think that it certainly was a building on an existing, anti Netanyahu protest movement.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what are the social concerns causing concern and fueling protests?

Lahav Harkov:

There is a lot of sort of homophobic and very strongly anti-gay rhetoric coming from this coalition, coming from specifically within the religious Zionist party, and some of the things being said are very ugly, and I think like hurtful to people who are gay and there is a lot of concern about that.

And I would also add that there's misogyny coming from the same people as well, in terms of not even just women in the army, because I think it's fair to have a debate about, you know, whether it's appropriate for women to be in combat roles, et cetera. Like there's a debate to be had there. And I wouldn't jump to saying that's misogyny, but other things just about like women's roles in society that, you know, I wonder what year it is when you hear those people say these things.

What's interesting is that it's not the Haredim who are saying either the homophobic or the misogynistic things for the most part, because they, their idea is sort of, we have our community and we do things within our community one way and sort of, even if they disapprove of what other communities do, they're less involved. Let's put it that way. 

But it's the religious Zionist party, which is, for many years, sort of a bridge between those two parts of society. But I would say in recent years, at least, the political religious Zionism, if not the actual communities, leads towards the Haredi direction. So anyway, it's been coming from them. Netanyahu has said that there's not going to be any anti gay laws, and nothing's going to change. I believe him that that's what he wants. I would say that between the judicial stuff, and also, you know, these things about LGBT people, you know, Netanyahu can't say no to everything that his partners want, because then he won't have a coalition anymore, they'll quit, and we'll go to another election.

And so I don't know where the breaking point is going to be. But in order for Netanyahu to maintain his coalition, there will be a breaking point somewhere. Somewhere, he's going to have to say yes, even though he really wants to say no.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

So another change, proposed change, that has sparked tremendous concern among Jews, at least here in the diaspora, is the possibility that people who are not recognized as Jewish under Jewish law will be restricted. Right now the Law of Return allows every Jew to emigrate to and live in Israel as long as they have at least one Jewish grandparent. The definition of a Jew was based on the Nuremberg laws, in the original law of return. Now, there have been amendments since then that have extended Aliyah, to spouses to children, regardless of whether they're Jewish, how likely is this law to change?

Lahav Harkov:  

So I think it is actually pretty low priority for this coalition. And if it's low priority, then there's always the chance that just with the passage of time, other things will happen. And this won't. So for starters, there's that like, I just don't think there's going to be some sort of rapid change there. That being said, I do think that it is something that people in this coalition want. And again, it's another thing Netanyahy doesn't want.

And also Likud really doesn't want it. I mean, Likud doesn't want rights to be rolled back for gay people either. Don't get me wrong, but like, Likud doesn't want this, it goes against their voter base, a lot of Russian speaking Israelis vote for Likud. And this is viewed by them, and rightly so I think, as a way to stop immigration from the former Soviet Union. 

Because especially now with the war going on, you have many people coming here who, let's say, probably didn't ever see themselves living in Israel and don't really see themselves as Jewish, but because they're sanctions on Russia, life is increasingly difficult there, it's easier for them to come to Israel. 

It's one of these things where, the law of unintended consequences where where the politicians are thinking about one thing, but there are a lot of Jews in the Western world and you know, the majority of American Jews are married to marrying non Jews, you know, the numbers get higher all the time, and it affects people more people I think, than they were thinking about. So moving forward, they're gonna have to have that discussion and they're gonna have to think about it, you know, if they're gonna move forward with this, but I do think that politically they just don't have the numbers for it. I don't think Likud will want that. And Likud is half the seats in this coalition. So you need Likud in order for it to happen.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I want to shift gears a little bit and go back to Secretary Blinken, who doubled down on the United States support for a two state solution, both Israel and Palestinian state. But there are signs that public support for a two state solution is waning there. Is there really a lack of public support for that solution?

Lahav Harkov: 

Polls have shown that support is waning, both among Israelis and even more dramatically among Palestinians. I don't think it's overblown. Netanyahu talks like someone who does not want a two state solution at all, but the Trump per parameters the Trump plan was, practically, it was exactly what Netanyahu would have wanted it, it's exactly what you're saying- I would accept any plan, which is that Israel can keep all of the communities in Judea and Samaria, and, and applied sovereignty to them. And the Palestinian state would be on parts of the West Bank that, you know, Israelis don't live on. And it would be a demilitarized state that would essentially be surrounded on all ends by Israelis.

Now, that's not a two state solution that Palestinians will ever accept. But that is a two state solution that I think the majority of Israelis would accept if they were presented with that, right. So a lot of it really depends on how you ask the question. But if you talk about a two state solution based on pre-1967 lines, then I think the vast majority of Israelis would not want that.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Okay, Lahav, the last time you came on this podcast, we discussed the really difficult spot that Israel was in, they were offering safety to Ukrainian refugees, they were providing humanitarian aid inside Ukraine, with Russia, right there on Israel's border with Syria. A lot has transpired since then, not least of which Israel has a new administration. So has Israel's position shifted?

Lahav Harkov: 

Israel's position has not shifted openly. Israel's not like sending weapons to Ukraine right now. That being said, the attack on the drone manufacturing site in Iran, which is something that, reportedly Israel did, is something that helps Ukraine a lot. And so Netanyahu admitted it that also in the interview on CNN with Jake Tapper, he says something, you know, like that we we hit back at, you know, Iran's development of different weapons, and those are weapons that are also being used against Ukraine.

And I believe it was Ukraine's defense minister, some important Ukrainian official. It slipped my mind now exactly who it is but after that attack tweeted something to like, We warned you Iran, which sort of hints to you that maybe Ukraine knew something about what was going on as well. So it seems to me that there are things happening behind the scenes. But Israel's not saying it upfront, in order not to antagonize Russia, which really is sitting on Israel's northern border.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, Lahav, thank you once again for coming and sharing your perspective from on the ground there. I think that's really important because a lot of people are interpreting and reporting things without actually being there and there's always holes when you try to do that, so thank you so much. 

Lahav Harkov: 

All right. Thank you. 

"In so many cases, as is the case of October 7, there are no direct victims who are able to speak – for the very grim reason that Hamas made sure to kill almost each and every one of them. The very few that did survive are too traumatized to speak . . . "

Shortly after the October 7 Hamas terror attacks on Israel, witness accounts emerged of women brutally raped and mutilated before they were murdered and silenced forever. For Ruth Halperin-Kaddari, Professor of Law at Bar-Ilan University, that silence was deafening. And the silence of the international community unwilling to hold Hamas accountable, disturbing. 

"Does that mean that [Hamas] can walk away without being prosecuted, without being charged, and without being pointed to as those who perpetrate sexual violence and use it as a weapon of war?" she asks. In this episode, Halperin-Kaddari explains how she and her colleagues have erased any doubt to make sure Hamas is held accountable. 

Their initiative The Dinah Project, named for one of Jacob's daughters, a victim of rape, just published A Quest for Justice, the most comprehensive assessment to date of the widespread and systematic sexual violence that occurred during and after the October 7, 2023 attack on Israel by Hamas terrorists and their allies. 

The report demonstrates that sexual violence was widespread and systematic during the October 7 attack, that there are clear patterns in the methods of sexual violence across geographic locations, and that sexual violence continued against hostages in captivity. It concludes that Hamas used sexual violence as a tactical weapon of war during and after the October 7 attack. 

Resources:

• Read: The Dinah Project's groundbreaking new report, A Quest for Justice

• Read: Hamas' Most Horrific Weapon of War: 5 Takeaways from UN Report on Sexual Violence Against Israelis

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• The Forgotten Exodus: Untold stories of Jews who left or were driven from Arab nations and Iran

• People of the Pod: 

• Latest Episodes: 

• Journalist Matti Friedman Exposes Media Bias Against Israel

• John Spencer's Key Takeaways After the 12-Day War: Air Supremacy, Intelligence, and Deterrence

• Iran's Secret Nuclear Program and What Comes Next in the Iranian Regime vs. Israel War

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Transcript of the Interview:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Shortly after the October 7 Hamas terror attacks on Israel, witness accounts emerged of women brutally raped and mutilated before they were murdered and silenced forever. For Ruth Halperin-Kaddari, Professor of Law at Bar Ilan University, that silence was deafening. And the silence of the international community unwilling to hold Hamas accountable, disturbing. 

In response, Ruth and colleagues, former military prosecutor Sharon Zagagi-Pinhas and retired judge Nava Ben-Or founded The Dinah Project, an effort to seek justice for the victims of sexual violence during conflicts, particularly in Israel, on October 7, 2023.

This week, together with visual editor Nurit Jacobs-Yinon and linguistics editor Eetta Prince-Gibson, they released A Quest for Justice, the most comprehensive report yet on the sexual violence committed on October 7 and against hostages afterward. Ruth is with us now. Ruth, welcome to People of the Pod. 

Ruth Halperin-Kaddari:  

Thank you very much for having me on your podcast.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, it's really an honor to have you. I should note for our listeners that you are also the founding Academic Director of the Rackman Center for the Advancement of the Status of Women, and you've served on the UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women. So you're no newcomer to this subject matter. 

You know, we've talked a lot about how Hamas sexually assaulted women and men during the October 7 terror attacks on Israel. Without getting too graphic, or at least getting graphic enough to make your point clear and not sanitize these crimes, what new information and evidence does this report offer? 

Ruth Halperin-Kaddari:  

The specific new finding in the report is to actually take all the already published and existing information and put it together and come down with the numbers that prove that sexual violence on October 7 was not sporadic. Was not isolated. It was systematic. It happened in at least six different locations, at the same time, with the same manner, the same patterns. 

And the, I think, most significant finding is that there are at least 17 survivors who witnessed the sexual violence, and they reported on at least 15 different cases. So there were 17 people who either saw or heard, in real time, the rapes and the gang rapes, some of them involving mutilation, some ending, and the witnesses saw, the execution at the end of the assaults.

And this is the first time that anybody came with the actual aggregation and the classification and the naming of all the various sexual assaults and all the various cases that occurred on October 7, and then also later on in captivity. What we did is to, as I said, take all the testimonies and the evidence and the reports that people had already given, and they published it, either on social media or regular media, in addition to some information that was available to us from from other sources, and grouped it into specific categories according to their evidentiary value. 

So the first group is, of course, those who were victims or survivors of sexual violence themselves, mostly returned hostages, but also one survivor of an attempted rape victim, attempted rape, on October 7, who had actually not spoken before. So that's the first time that her testimony is being recorded or reported. 

But then the returned hostages, who also report on repeated and similar patterns of sexual abuse and sexual assaults that they had been subjected to in captivity.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So the United Nations has acknowledged that women were raped, mutilated, murdered, executed, as you said, but did it attribute responsibility to Hamas?

Ruth Halperin-Kaddari:  

We have to differentiate between the first report of the Assistant Secretary General, Special Representative on sexual violence in conflict, Ms. Pramila Patten, who refrained from specifically attributing these atrocities to Hamas, saying that there needs to be more or follow up examination or investigation into the question of attribution. 

But then in June of 2024, the Commission of Inquiry on Palestinian Authority, Gaza, Israel, and East Jerusalem, did attribute in their report, they did attribute the sexual violence to Hamas in at least two different places in their report. So in our view, this is already a settled issue. And the information that we gathered comes on top of these two reports.

We have to bear in mind the issue of time that passes, first of all, with respect to those survivors, mostly of the Nova music festival, who themselves were victims of the terror attack. And as can be expected, took time before they could recount and speak in public about what they had seen, what they had witnessed, suffering also from trauma, being exposed to such unbelievable acts of human cruelty.

And then the other group of the returned hostages, who, some of them, were freed only after 400 or 500 days. So obviously we could not hear their reports before they were finally freed. So all these pieces of information could not have been available to these two investigative exercises by the United Nations.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And when the UN Secretary General's annual report on the conflict related sexual violence, when it comes out in August, right, it's expected out next month, there is going to be more information. So do you have high hopes that they will hold Hamas accountable for using sexual violence as a tactical weapon of war, and that this will be included in that report?

Ruth Halperin-Kaddari:  

So this is, in fact, our first recommendation request, ask, if you want to put it that way. We call upon the Secretary General to blacklist Hamas, to include Hamas in the list of those notorious organizations, entities, states that condone or that actually make use of sexual violence as a weapon of war, side by side with ISIS, with Boko Haram, with other terrorist organizations and terrorist groups around the world. 

And expose them, finally, for what they are, not freedom fighters and not resistance fighters, but rapists and terrorists that use the worst form of violence of human cruelty, of atrocities to inflict such terror and harm on the enemy.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You know, we talk about the dangers of nuclear warfare, especially lately, in the context of Iran, we talk about cyber attacks. What are the broader implications of sexual violence when it's used as a weapon of war?

Ruth Halperin-Kaddari:  

Perhaps this is where we should clarify the sense in which sexual violence as a weapon of war is different from the regular term of sexual violence, and from the phenomena of, for lack of a better word, everyday sexual violence. It's really very important to bear this in mind when thinking about those broader implications and when seeking justice for victims of sexual violence when used as a weapon of war.

It is directed not against the individual. It is directed against the community as a whole. Against the group of the enemy, the nation of the enemy. So the bodies of women, and sometimes also of men, are used as vessels, as symbols, symbolizing the body of the whole nation, and when the specific body is targeted and when the specific woman is invaded, conquered, violated, it is as if the whole body of the of the nation, of the enemy's nation, is being invaded and conquered. 

So the target is the total dehumanization and destroying of the whole community, of the whole group of the enemy. And these are the ramifications of using sexual violence as a weapon of war. It inflicts such a degree of terror, and then also of shame and of stigma, so as to paralyze the whole community. And it goes on and on. And we know from sadly, from other cases of the usage of sexual violence as a tool of war that it is transmitted to generation after generation, this collective trauma.

And it's important, not just in understanding and perhaps being prepared for treatment, for healing, etc. But it is also important in the sense of seeking justice. Of attempting to prosecute for these crimes of sexual violence in conflict or in war. We know that it is always a very difficult challenge for the legal system, for institutions, legal institutions, institutions of justice, to prosecute perpetrators of CRSV, of conflict related sexual violence, because of the of the unique aspects and the unique nature of this kind of crime, which are different from everyday sexual violence.

In so many cases, as is the case of October 7, there are no direct victims who are able to speak for the very grim reason that Hamas made sure to kill almost each and every one of them so as to leave no traces, to silence them forever. And the very few that did survive, are too traumatized to speak, are unable to come up and say what they had been through. 

But this is very often the case in CRSV. And then the next challenge is that it is almost always impossible to identify or to point to a specific perpetrator and it's almost impossible to know who did what, or to connect a specific perpetrator to a specific victim. In the case of October 7, the victims were buried with the evidence. The bodies were the evidence and they were buried immediately, or as soon as it was possible, according to Jewish tradition. 

So does that mean that they can walk away without being prosecuted, without being charged, and without being pointed to as those who perpetrate sexual violence and use it as a weapon of war? That is why we, in our work at The Dinah Project and in the book that we had just published this week, on top of the evidentiary platform that I already described before, we also develop a legal thesis calling for the prosecution of all those who participated in that horrific attack, all those who entered Israel with the genocidal intent of total dehumanization and total destruction.

And we argue that they all share responsibility. This is a concept of joint responsibility, or joint criminal enterprise, that we must make use of, and it is a known concept in jurisprudence, in criminal law, and it has to be employed in these cases. In addition to understanding that some of the usual evidence that is sought for prosecution of sexual violence, namely the evidence, the testimony, of the victim herself or himself is not available. 

But then those eyewitnesses and ear witnesses in real time, 17 of them reporting 15 different cases, these are no less credible evidence and acceptable evidence in evidentiary, in evidence law. And these should be resorted to. 

So there has to be a paradigm shift in the understanding of the prosecutorial authorities and the law in general. Justice systems, judicial systems in general. Because otherwise, perpetrators of these crimes have full impunity and there will never be accountability for these crimes. And any terrorist organization gets this message that you can do this and get away with it, as long as you don't leave the victims behind. This is a terrible message. It's unacceptable, and we must fight against it.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Ruth, can you explain to our audience the origins of The Dinah Project? How old is it? When did you found it, and why?

Ruth Halperin-Kaddari:  

The Dinah Project is really a very interesting case. Can be seen as a case study of the operation of civil society in Israel, from the bottom up, forming organically, without any plan, at first, without any structure. Each of us found ourselves working in parallel channels immediately after October 7. I was very much involved and invested in the international human rights arena. 

My colleagues were more invested on the national front in seeking to, first of all, to raise awareness within the Israeli authorities themselves about what had took place, and then collecting the information and putting all the pieces of the puzzle together. And then we realized, as we realized that we are all working towards the same goal, we first of all formed a WhatsApp group. This is how things are being done in Israel, and we called it: Sexual Atrocities War Room. 

And then we understood that we have to have some kind of a structure. And it was only natural that the Rackman Center that I established, and I'm still heading more than 25 years ago, would be the natural organization to host The Dinah Project. 

As an organization that has always been leading justice for Israeli women, for women in Israel, gender justice, we realize that we are now facing a new front of where justice needs to be done for women in Israel. And we also can utilize the human power that we have in the academia, in the university, of course the organizational structure. So we expanded The Rackman Center, and for the past almost year and a half, The Dinah Project is part of the Rackman Center.

And the book that we published now is really the culmination of a very, very careful and meticulous work, thousands of hours, as I said. I would like to add that we are, I'm trying to think of the proper words. It's actually a subject matter where you so often find yourself looking for the proper words. So I want to say we're pleased, but it's really not the right expression. But we see, we acknowledge that there is a huge amount of interest in our work since we launched the book this week and handed it over to the First Lady of Israel, Michal Herzog, at the presidential residence. 

And I hesitate to say that perhaps this demonstrates that maybe there is more willingness in the international media and in the world at large to hear, maybe to accept, that the situation is more nuanced than previously they prefer to believe. 

And maybe also because more time passed on. Of course, new information was gathered, but also when this is a work by an academic institution, coming from independent experts and a very solid piece of work, maybe this is also what was needed. I'm really, really hopeful that it will indeed generate the change that we're seeking.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In other words, that denial that we encountered in the very beginning, where people were not believing the Israeli women who said that they were sexually assaulted, you find that that is shifting, that is changing.

Ruth Halperin-Kaddari:  

I hope so. I hope that this media interest that we are experiencing now is a signal for some kind of change. It is our aim to refute the denialism.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

There are some that point to Israeli Forces as well and say that they are also using sexual violence as a weapon of war. Does The Dinah Project address that, has it worked with the IDF to try to figure out . . . in other words, is it a broad application, this report?

Ruth Halperin-Kaddari:  

This is not our mission. Our mission is concerned with the victims of Hamas. We are aware of the allegations against Israeli soldiers, against IDF. We are aware, and we made some inquiries to know the facts that investigations are ongoing against those who are being accused of perpetrating sexual violence against Palestinian detainees. 

But we must point out a major difference, at least in our understanding. Hamas entered Israel on October 7 under a genocidal indoctrination. Just reading the Hamas charter, going through those writings that were found in the vessels of Hamas terrorists here in Israel, or later on in Gaza, the indoctrination there is clear. 

And they all entered civilian places. They attacked civilians purposefully, with the intent of total dehumanization and destruction. Whatever happened or not happened with respect to Palestinian detainees, and I do trust the Israeli authorities to conduct a thorough investigation and to hold those accountable, cannot be compared to a structured and planned and ordered attack against the civilian population.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And total lack of accountability as well.

Ruth Halperin-Kaddari:  

Obviously there is absolutely no accountability on the part of the Palestinian people, of Hamas leadership, or Palestinian Authority, if that's relevant. Obviously there are no investigations there and no accountability, no acceptance of responsibility on their part.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, Ruth, thank you so much for producing this report, for continuing to investigate, and keeping the fire lit under the feet of the United Nations and authorities who can hold people accountable for the crimes that were committed. Thank you so much.

Ruth Halperin-Kaddari:  

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for a replay of a conversation with award-winning journalist Matti Friedman at AJC Global Forum 2025. He breaks down the media bias, misinformation and double standards shaping global coverage of Israel.

In this powerful episode, we sit down with Sam Harris, who is one of the youngest survivors of the Holocaust. As a young child, Sam watched in horror as his family was taken to Treblinka and murdered, but he and his two older sisters were able to beat the odds. Listen as Sam recounts the unimaginable struggles he faced during one of the darkest periods in human history and how his experience motivated him to play a central role in the founding of the Illinois Holocaust Museum.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

__

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Sam Harris

__

Show Notes:

Read:

• Sammy - Child Survivor of the Holocaust by Sam Harris

Watch:

• Full live recording of this episode

Listen: 

• Interview with Howard Reich, as mentioned in this week's episode: The Art of Inventing Hope: Elie Wiesel's Masterclass for Humanity
• Our most recent podcast episode: 'Leopoldstadt' Actor David Krumholtz Sees Tom Stoppard's Holocaust Play as the Role of a Lifetime

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

Since its Broadway opening last fall, Tom Stoppard's "Leopoldstadt," a play about a multigenerational Jewish family in Vienna, based on Stoppard's own family history, has been met with critical acclaim. Hear from celebrated actor David Krumholtz, who plays the patriarch of the family, on how his Jewish identity has been transformed by the role, why he speaks to his young children about antisemitism, and the importance of Holocaust education today.

_

Episode Lineup:

• (0:40) David Krumholtz

__

Show Notes:

Leopoldstadt: Tickets and more information

Photo credit: Joan Marcus

Listen to: 

• Our most recent podcast episode: Shabbat Shalom No More? One Year Later, Colleyville Synagogue Wrestles with Impact of Hostage Crisis

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with David Krumholtz:

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Since its official Broadway opening on October 2 2022, Tom Stoppard's latest play Leopoldstadt has received widespread acclaim. One of the hottest tickets in town, it has been extended through July 2023. The drama follows multiple generations of a Viennese Jewish family over half a century, beginning in 1899. Through the Holocaust and beyond, the fictional family and the story is based on Stoppard's own. When he was in his 50s, the playwright learned that he was Jewish and had lost his grandparents and many other family members in the Shoah. With us now to discuss his role in the play is actor David Krumholtz, who plays Hermann Merz, the tragic patriarch of this fictional family who has converted to Catholicism for purposes of social and professional mobility, but discovers in the end it is to no avail. David, welcome to People of the Pod. 

David Krumholtz:

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So I described your character as tragic, but it is a play about the Holocaust. So would you say all of the characters in this play are tragic? Would you agree? Walk our audience through Hermann Merz's approach to life, to his Judaism.

David Krumholtz:

I don't see the character as tragic at all, which is sort of a conversation I needed to have with Patrick Marber, our director before I even auditioned for the role. I think he's heroic in many ways. He's doing the very best he can for his family, and for the future generations of his family, and in doing so, he has had to shed his Judaism. You get the sense, though, that he was kind of raised in the religion of business. The most important thing he inherited, this textile factory from his father, and his father did very well. And it seems to me that he was groomed  to take over and bring it to great success, build it farther than his father could have ever imagined. And for the sake of his family, and for the sake of future generations. So, certainly converting to Catholicism in late 19th century Austria, was one of the ways to do that, you know, he wasn't labeled anymore, it opened up channels that he probably would have had a harder time getting in on.

He did all that he possibly could do to benefit from the choice. And it's a choice, ultimately, that he must have known broke his mother's heart, and alienated him from his family, from the more religious members of his family. And yet, he did it anyway. And he does suffer for it. And it seems to me he's willing to suffer for it. But when we learn about him, is that at the very core of who he is, he is Jewish. At the first instance, of someone challenging his Judaism or, you know, mocking his Catholicism, he's ready to kill the guy, literally. So we get the sense that this is a very, very deep seated issue that comes from, as he explains through a story about his grandfather being bullied for being Jewish. It's true. There's a trauma there that he is doing this from, it's not all just business-minded and flippant. This is something that he has been tortured by his whole life by the time we meet him.

Which is why he has so many strong opinions on Israel and the future of Jews, and assimilation in Austria. Vienna, being at the time, the cultural center of the world with an emperor king who emancipated Jews from all wrongdoing. And was a sort of Jewish sympathizer who gave Jews quite a lot of leeway that they didn't have prior to his reign. So things are looking up when we meet Hermann Merz, looking up not only for his business and his family, but for Jews in Vienna. 

I think he has every right to feel positively about the future, think positively about the future, and not want to move his entire family to the middle of the desert. He's righteous in that indignation. And sadly, time tells a different story. The next, you know, 40 years of his life, teach him that his ideals and his hopes for the future were obsolete or were futile. And that's the tragedy of the story of Hermann Merz. But I don't view him as a tragic figure.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

But what you're referring to is there's a kind of an ongoing debate through the play between Ludvig, his brother in law, if I'm not mistaken, and Hermann, and that debate is about assimilation and what the definition of assimilation is. Ludvig says assimilation doesn't mean to stop being a Jew. Assimilation means to carry on being a Jew without insult. Would you agree with that definition? And would you consider yourself assimilated, by that definition or another?

David Krumholtz:

I think for the time in which the play is set, that is a very keen definition. The idea of being anything other than what religion you're raised in, identifying with a nationality, let's say, was a novel concept at the time. The term thrown around by Ludvig in that scene a couple times is the word ordinary Jew, ordinary Jews, meaning not rich, middle class Jews who don't have access to all the luxuries that my character does. And that's an interesting little phrase there. ordinary jew, What is an ordinary Jew, what separates us? What makes you know, a Hasidic Jew a Hasidic Jew, what makes an assimilated Americanized for instance Jew, the same Jew or a different Jew? What's the difference? 

I personally like to think that there is only a matter of degrees of religiosity between the two. I would hope that as appreciative of I am as I am as an assimilated Americanized Jew, as appreciative as I am of the Hasidic community of the religiosity of the ultra Orthodox community, the Orthodox community, that those communities would be as appreciative of me, that there'd be no judging. 

Especially at this point, 80 years, past a genocide that we all suffered through, where it didn't matter how religious you were, at the end of the day, all that mattered was what was on your birth certificate. And one would hope that, 80 years later, we're all sort of on equal footing with one another.

And we've all carried on being Jews without insult in one way or another. 

I grew up in New York City. I grew up in Queens, which is the most multi-ethnic, multinational place on Earth, believe it or not, per capita. Queens represents more nationalities than any place on Earth. Just the borough of Queens alone, not to mention the entire city of New York.

So for me, there wasn't any corner to fit into, it was all a melting pot, and I could be whatever I wanted to be. And so over time, after Hebrew school, and having had my Bar Mitzvah, I felt strongly that I didn't necessarily relate or feel attracted to the more religious tenets of Judaism. But that culturally I was Jewish. And I've taken great pride in playing Jewish characters, and telling the story of Jewish people over the last 30 years, in my work, when I get the chance to. and so in that way, I've carried on being a Jew without insult, you know, it is part of my identity, this play has made me sort of realize how much of that identity I maybe took for granted at times.

But for the most part, it's nice to be a part of something that makes a clear statement. And that statement is that Judaism is more than just a religion, it's a cultural existence, it is something unique unto itself. And there are, there's a lot to be proud of, there's a lot of amazing history to be cherished and celebrated, and to be celebrated as well.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So how did you find your way to Leopoldstadt? And I will follow that up with a question of, how have you found your way to your Jewish heritage, kind of discovering what you might have taken for granted through Leopoldstadt?

David Krumholtz:

Patrick Marber, the director of Leopoldstadt, had his sights set on me. It flabbergasted me to be honest, I haven't done a stitch of theater in 30 years. I'm not your sort of prototype for the role on paper. And yet, he was enamored with my work and sensed that it would all pan out nicely. And so I don't look a gift horse in the mouth. So I took the opportunity. 

My father would have loved this play. My father was a deeply devout Jewish culturalist at heart. You know, he grew up in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. He was surrounded by Jewish people, his upbringing was surrounded by old world Jews who had settled in America prior to the war, and

Jewish survivors of the Holocaust who had just come back. That was his reality growing up as a kid in New York. And so these themes were an obsession for him his whole life. So I thought, well, one way to connect was to evoke the memory of my father, and so I did that, and in doing so, I came to some pretty tough realizations, one being my father was quite frustrated with me, and how I sort of abandoned the religion, early on in my life.

There comes a time in, I think, in a lot of people's lives where they question the existence of God, they question the existence of biblical history. And that was happening to me and it frustrated my father a great deal, because he had a tremendous amount of faith. And it's only recently that I've had to take on quite a bit of faith in my life now that I'm a father and being an actor is a leap of faith. It took me a long time to realize that. I just know from doing this play, that it would have made my father very, very proud. And that if he could tell a story this is the story he would tell. And so, for me, rediscovering my Judaism, through this story, as a tribute to his life, is the formula for success. And for me finding greater pride and being Jewish than perhaps I've ever had before.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

That's beautiful. This was not a typical role for you, and you hadn't done a stitch of theater for 30 years. I believe I read somewhere that, in fact, when you're making your commute into the city to do these shows, you call someone to kind of share how intimidated you are by this play, and that that call settles you down. Do you still do that?

David Krumholtz:  

There are certain days I just have to do that. The weight of this role is heavy. This is a heavy responsibility. In many ways, the role of Hermann is kind of, along with other roles in the play, but he's one of the anchors of this ship that is sailing to great success on Broadway, and that's not lost on me and you know, when I walk out of the theater at night and, and get teary eyed thank yous from our patrons, who clearly have been deeply impacted by what they've just seen.

It's not lost on me. And so yes, you know, little old me on the way in, in my car to the city has to sometimes call anyone. But typically, my family, someone in my family and just sort of say, Hey, this is quite a mountain to climb and hang in here. But there are moments certainly where the pressure is enormous, and I feel unworthy of the glory of playing this role. It's just part of who I am. It's what motivates me. Those feelings of insecurity actually motivate a great  performance, or what I hope is a great performance. And, so I make those calls. And, you know, and like I said, they're family mostly because to me, family is just deeply important, and they know me better than anyone.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Well, that leads me to ask about the family tree in Leopoldstadt, which plays a very important role. It's published in the program, so that you can study it. In fact, someone told us to study it before we even watch the play. I don't know if it made that much of a difference. It made so much more sense afterward.

But there are, I believe, 31 characters in Leopoldstadt, is that right? 24 of them are members of this extended family. And even in the play, there's a reference to how confusing that family tree can be. Why? What's the point of that kind of complicated, many branches of that family tree?

David Krumholtz: 

Well, it's a stroke of brilliance by Tom Stoppard who's written quite a few pieces that are strokes of brilliance. It's purposeful. It's so that at the end of the play, when your frustration mounts at not knowing exactly who every character is, there's so many characters, and how they're related to each other. When that frustration mounts, you can equate that frustration with the fact that each one of those people, each one of those characters, individualism didn't matter. At the end of the day, they were killed for being something they couldn't help but be. They were killed for being Jewish. It didn't matter what their hopes were, what their dreams were, what their aspirations were, it didn't matter whose mothers were, who's who, you know, whose sons had mothers and whose mothers had sons. none of it mattered. Death is the final, there's so much finality in death. 

And at the end of the play, we get a sense of that finality, that there is no coming back. There's only memory, there's only memory. And memory, for as impactful as memory can be at times, is also a thinly veiled representation of the real person. And so when our audiences walk out of the theater going, I didn't get to know that character, I didn't get to know that character…you knew as much as they knew about themselves, before they were killed, before their life ended. The frustration you feel with the frustration of generations worth of Jewish families that lost their loved ones. And that's the point. Yeah,

Manya Brachear Pashman:

You talk a lot about walking out of the theater and how you encounter audience members. My husband and I walked out of the theater, and we kind of stood off to the side, just really in stunned silence. We were still processing everything we had just watched and heard.

And these two ladies came by and they were taking smiling selfies outside the right by the poster. And my husband and I were like, Did you just see the same play that we saw?

shocked that, you know, they show it was there, you know, maybe first time on Broadway and you know, this was a Tom Stoppard play, it's exciting. But we were so kind of emotionally drained. 

David Krumholtz:

We've been told by a lot of audiences that they're not prepared to clap for us, when we take our vows, that the ending in the play is so deeply tragic and so stunning that suddenly there are these actors on stage taking their vows. And, our crowds aren't quite ready to process.

The difference between what they just saw and reality, the difference between 1900 and 2023. And we feel it as well. And we are as a cast somewhat desensitized to the trauma of the play. But during the rehearsals, and during our first couple of weeks of runs, we all had a very, very, very difficult time processing the different, more depressing aspects of the play.

There were countless tears shed. It was amazing for us to bond over something that we all clearly felt so moved by. So we're not surprised, we often have to remind ourselves, oh, this is the first time these people are seeing the show. And how it felt the first time we read it, or how it felt the first time we heard it out loud, or how it felt the first time we got it up on its feet and looked into each other's eyes and performed it. You know, we have to remind ourselves of how deeply impactful The show is. And it doesn't take much because at the end of most performances, we hear audible weeping in the in the crowd and we see it in the eyes of people standing to give us you know, an ovation and

It's some of the most important work. You know, you always strive as an actor or an artist of any sort to do relevant work. So much of the work you do in between relevant work is down to whatever reasons, you know, whether it be to make a living or to, you know, to cement some future for yourself or whatever. And then in between, and then once in a while very rarely do you get to do something that is truly timeless, if you will. And that's what I believe about this play. It's timeless, in its impact. It tells the story of humanity in a very unique time. It's historical, and so the pride we all feel is just incredibly palpable.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And you should really, it is truly incredible. I also want to ask you how you've changed your behavior, what you have done, if anything. As a result of being part of this play, this is a very small thing I shared with you before we started recording, one of the lines during that comedic scene actually really pierced me and that was when the grandmother was looking through the photo album. And they don't know who people are here. She says, Well, here's a couple waving goodbye, but who are they? It's like a second death to lose your name and a family photo album. And I immediately burst into tears. And came home and started writing names on the back of photos in our family photo album because I realized, oh my goodness, what truth that line delivered.

David Krumholtz:  

Well, yeah, I think that theme of that desperation of clinging to memory desperately, is made all the more impactful when you realize that lives were meaninglessly lost. When tragedy strikes, memory both takes on more and less meaning. You know, because you're clinging so desperately to it, because you've lost something that you felt wasn't complete. And you're completing it in your memory, if you will. And yet it's just a memory. It's a Central as a memory, it exists here, maybe in your heart. But, there's no tangible proof that that person existed any longer. Again, it's Tom Stoppard hitting you over the head with a very, very bleak truth about the nature of murder of genocide, about the robbing of individual individuality, about the discounting of a person's dreams, of a person's hopes, of a person's family, of people's reliance on each, other dependence on each other. Just wiping people out of this general blanket of death. That memory becomes a more desperate thing. It's haunting, it's terribly haunting. And at the end of the play, we see the ghosts. What we essentially see, live in the flesh, is the new family photo album, filled with people that we just hope we can remember. And if we can't, then well, that's even more tragic. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Do you do anything different? Do you talk to your children differently about your Jewish traditions, history? 

David Krumholtz:

You know, I grew up incredibly frustrated by racism, because as I'm in my mid 40s, my generation grew up with the stories and the harrowing sort of, the wagging- be careful, you never know, this could happen again. I could touch and feel my great grandmother, I could see the tears in her eyes in recalling her memories. She lost 11 brothers and sisters in the Holocaust. And so I can see it.

My kids can't.... So for me, it's just important. I debated – my daughter's eight, this is heavy fare for an eight year old. And I debated whether or not it was important that she see the play. I don't want to hurt her. I don't want to scare her. And at the same time, it's important that she knows and that the message is delivered by me. And so we're gonna have her come see the play before I'm done with it, and hopefully, that impacts the way it should.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

That's a wonderful point. I wrestle every day with how much to share with my children, because you don't want to scare them. Because you don't want them to run away from their Jewish traditions and heritage either out of here. I'm really grateful to the rabbi at our synagogue who, every Shabbat during the Mourners' Kaddish, will share six names of the 6 million killed. And my children will often look up at me when he mentions the name and age of a child that was killed during the Holocaust. It just highlights the importance of remembering, but doing so in a safe space, in a community, in a sacred space where we're all together, illustrating: we all survived, but it's important to remember those who didn't.

When are you done with Leopoldstadt?

David Krumholtz:

I'm done March 12. Play is going through, as of right now it's extended to July 2, it may extend again, another wonderful actor is going to come in and take my place. I can't tell you who that is yet. I will have done six months. Something like 175 performances, for me, is plenty. This is a hard play to live through and live in the skin of and so, you know, I'm going to take my leave, but it's been transformative and the role of my life. It's just, for someone like Patrick Marber and Tom Stoppard, Sonia Friedman, to have believed in me, to the extent that they did to take on such a huge responsibility just means the world. And hopefully I can take that with me through to the next important job.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Why is it important for people to see this play now?

David Krumholtz:

Well, we live in a time when, unfortunately or fortunately, where we can openly communicate our deepest darkest feelings to one another. Sometimes, those feelings are feelings of hatred. Sometimes those feelings are ignorant feelings of hatred, that are blanket generalizations based on small experiences that people may have had.

People tend to use social media, for instance, to make things a lot more, a lot bigger than they are. And so something like a man with 11 million followers saying something anti semitic, can snowball very, very quickly into this kind of real world danger that the show presents that actually happened not too long ago. And so it's very important that now that people of all races, religions, creeds, this could happen to anyone. As Jew as Jews, we have to make sense of what happened to us.

Part of making sense of what happened to us, I believe, is telling the story in order to warn not only our own people, but all minorities, all people that this could happen again, that this actually happened, that humanity did this, that hate created murder, can create  genocide. And it's our responsibility to pay the lesson we've learned forward, the painful lesson. It's easier to turn a blind eye, or to say, well, that's just Jewish people's problem.

The truth is, it's a problem for all humanity. And so hopefully, we're not playing to a bubble of people who need to see this, want to see this, or are Jewish enough to see it.. And I think it has the power to be a play that's impactful for all people. And we found that to be true thus far, it's a really clearly communicated olive branch in a way to say, hey, we went through this, we're telling you this could happen. And stay safe, be smart, and love one another before your time's up.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Thank you so much, and thank you for joining us to talk about it today. 

David Krumholtz: 

All right. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

One year ago, Jeff Cohen was taken hostage during Shabbat services by an antisemitic attacker. Hear from Cohen, who is now the president of Congregation Beth Israel synagogue in Colleyville, about all that has transpired since that traumatic day and how the attack has impacted him and the Colleyville Jewish community. Bradley Orsini, the Secure Community Network's senior national security advisor, also joined the conversation to share what steps American Jews can take to protect and empower their communities amid increasing antisemitism.

____

Episode Lineup:

• (0:40) Jeff Cohen, Bradley Orsini

____

Show Notes:

Register here for: Surviving Hostage Situations - SCN event on January 19, 2023

Sunday marks one year since attack on Colleyville synagogue 

TranslateHate.com: Stopping antisemitism starts with understanding it

Listen to: 

• Our 2022 podcast episode, right after the Coleyville situation: Inside the Colleyville, Texas Synagogue Hostage Crisis: Hear from 3 Local Jewish and Muslim Leaders on What It Was Like on the Ground
• Our most recent podcast episode: How Hanukkah's Americanization Became a Show of Jewish Pride

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.