Explorez tous les épisodes du podcast More or Less

Anthropic's S-1 leaked and the numbers are not what the narrative promised: revenue flatlining as token prices drop, and SaaS investors posting memes welcoming Anthropic to the no-growth table. Jess still puts it at 60% they get out in November, which looks optimistic in a week when Oura pulled its IPO and blamed market conditions. Sam's problem with the core business is simpler than any of it: he runs Claude as the center of his infrastructure, and if it vanished tomorrow he'd care for about one second. Dave spots the strategy mishap nobody is naming, where forward deployed teams built software to burn luxury tokens right as open models had CFOs asking why they're paying premium prices. Then Adrian drops into the pod uninvited to argue there's no moat left unless you own the infrastructure, the data, or the algorithms.In this episode:- The leaked S-1: flatlining revenue, half a trillion in mostly non-cancellable contracts, and why the cloud providers are the ones making money- Oura pulling its IPO, LPs stuck in a quiet period, and the barbell strategy that sent World Labs out at $8B- Sam on Wall Street and Silicon Valley splitting over what AI is worth, and why staying private may beat going public- Jess on companies priced for a growth rate larger than the entire US economy- Dave on the forward deployed bet and open models undercutting luxury tokens- Jess announces her bot AGI challenge: update three kids' after-school plans and sync them to Google Calendar- Adrian on the moat question: no lock-in without BD deals, so the business teams get overpaid next- Brit's instinct talking to Dave's instinct, and what happens when you stop texting the people you love- Whether this is the end of times or the beginning of them, and why offline is the new luxuryChapters:00:00 Trailer 01:04 Live From X HQ, and a 39 Degree Cold Plunge02:57 Dunbar's Number, but for Bots05:48 Anthropic's Leaked S-1 and the Flatlining Revenue07:37 Oura Pulls Its IPO and the LPs Get Stuck09:36 What's Actually Happening in the Markets10:41 Wall Street and Silicon Valley Split on AI's Price Tag12:45 World Labs Sells for $8B: The Barbell Strategy14:11 Half a Trillion in Contracts, and Who's Really Making Money14:54 What Happens If OpenAI and Anthropic Don't Work Out?16:11 Priced for a Growth Rate Bigger Than the US Economy18:04 Open Models Pass Closed Models on the Charts18:51 Sam: If Claude Vanished Tomorrow, I'd Care for One Second19:43 The Forward Deployed Bet and the Luxury Token Problem22:16 Adrian Drops In: 300 Startups, 40 Unicorns, and a Plane24:39 Jess Goes Full Muse26:28 The Bot AGI Challenge: After-School Plans and the Mom Index28:23 OpenAI Rebrands Codex as Dots30:30 Adrian on the Moat: Winner Take Some31:38 Brit's Agent Starts Talking to Dave's Agent33:51 No Switching Costs, So BD Deals Are the Only Lock-In36:13 Dave: Instinct Is the New Kayak38:47 Adrian's Opposite Thesis: We Go Further Into the Screens43:39 Who Has Agency, You or the Technology?44:22 Offline Is the New Luxury46:31 Everyone Is Building Personal Apps Now47:54 Book Rec: Ari Emanuel's Roll the Calls50:44 Adrian's Parting Shot: Infrastructure, Data, or Algorithms53:02 Sam's Middle Ages 2.0: Castles, Moats, and HoardingWe're also onX: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.

Andreessen Horowitz puts $35 million into a new school and the pod nearly falls apart over it. Sam says he'd rather send his kids to the military, Jess is all for fixing higher ed but not with two venture capitalists writing the curriculum, and guest Matt Mazzeo (NoHo Labs founder, former CAA agent, prolific angel) spends ten minutes asking why the four of them can't be more optimistic about anything. Then Claude runs 10,000 agents for 21 hours and discovers a new enzyme system, which Brit points out is the beginning of two solid months of Claude catnip before the IPO. Sam's bigger worry: you can't take a company public when your top risk factor isn't the New York Times lawsuit, it's setting off nukes. Dave thinks the question nobody is asking is whether your agent represents you or the lab, because your Muse agent works for Meta. Plus Amazon blocking Muse, the Saint Petersburg paradox, and Matt going from 250 pounds to single digit body fat on peptides.

Matt is giving More or Less listeners 50% off their first month at NoHo Labs. Use code: MOREORLESSVIP on https://noholabs.com/

In this episode:

- Why the a16z school turned into the most heated argument this pod has had, and where each of them landed on Alpha School

- Claude discovering a new enzyme system with 10,000 agents in 21 hours, and the timing of that announcement

- Sam on why infinite liability may keep Anthropic from going public at all

- Matt's maximalist case: long frontier labs, long open source, long all of it

- The Saint Petersburg paradox, and why there's no way to price a company pitched as an infinite payout

- Greg Brockman redefining AGI as a gradual series of events, three years after it was sold as a winner-take-all moment

- Amazon blocking Muse, and whether every agent ends up in business development talks

- Does your agent faithfully represent you, or the lab that built it?

- Peptides 101 with Matt: what they are, the FDA moving them back into compounding pharmacies, and what a protocol actually costs

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About More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.

Finally, a full house week where Sam is back from New York and the squad is back for a full dive into this week’s AI drama. Anthropic's Dario wrote a long essay calling for the AI race to slow down, weeks before a multi-trillion dollar IPO. Dave's read: Anthropic must be losing. Sam's read: the labs are bad businesses with no compounding advantage, so regulatory capture is the only move left. 

Also this week: Sam's theory that OpenAI and Anthropic only become valuable as defense companies holding unreleased models in reserve, the poly-agent debate over whether normal people want one agent or ten, Instinct raising at $10 billion two weeks after $2.5 billion, and why everyone in the Valley is trading instead of investing.

In this episode:

- Why Dave thinks Dario’s slowdown essay is a sign Anthropic is falling behind, and what OpenRouter's data shows

- Sam on why there's no return on being first, and why that pushes the labs toward regulatory capture

- Brit on what's real in the safety debate, and the damned-if-you-do problem of racing China

- What DeepMind's new boss and Satya Nadella think about building safety alongside the product

- Sam's three eras of tech policy, from Bill Gates to embrace and extend

- The defense company thesis: zero-day models held back like nuclear weapons in silos

- Alignment's next frontier: is your agent working for you, or for the lab that made it?

- Instinct's $10B round, OpenRouter's exit, and why Sam says he's "currently wrong" as a seed investor

Chapters:

00:00 Intro

01:02 Not Dead Yet From the AGI

03:31 Jacob Coxon Quits Anthropic and Goes on a Media Tour

04:47 Dario's Slowdown Essay: Is Anthropic Just Losing?

06:13 Astra, OpenRouter, and DeepSeek Closing the Gap

06:45 Why the AI Labs Have No Compounding Advantage

07:29 Independent Assessors, Bioweapons, and Racing China

09:07 You Don't Need Superintelligence to Break the Banks

10:23 What DeepMind's New Boss and Satya Think About Safety

12:32 OpenAI's $1.5T Raise and the IPO That Keeps Slipping

13:03 Three Eras of Tech Policy: Gates, Google, Embrace and Extend

15:02 What DC Really Thinks About Anthropic

15:42 Should the Labs Red Team Each Other's Models?

18:42 Sam's Take: The AI Labs End Up as Defense Companies

20:54 10,000 Superintelligences in Silos

21:38 Alignment: Does Your Agent Work for You or the Lab?

23:44 The Poly-Agent Future: Muse, Grok, and Claude

24:47 Brit Pushes Back: Normal People Only Want One Agent

26:38 Oura's Agent Explains Jess's Sleep Data

28:40 Instinct Raising at $10B: Are These Numbers Fake?

30:40 Everyone's Trading, Nobody's Investing

33:27 Sam Built a Torah and Talmud App With Claude

35:28 Apple Eyes the Server Business Again

35:58 Sleep Age Wars: 8 Sleep, Oura, and Made-Up Scores

37:22 Entertaining Ourselves to Death

41:01 Building the Things Nobody Else Will Build

43:07 Tech's Democrat Problem: Jay Carney and Ron Conway

48:25 Doctor Strangelove and Not Looking at the Big Board

49:53 Pop Culture: Emmys, Taylor Swift, Silo, and Rogue Heroes

52:15 The WTF Lineup and the One-Name Theory

54:20 The Information's Most Influential People in Tech

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About More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.

Dave Morin goes hands-on with Apple's iPhone Duo, the crew tests Meta's new Muse agent and asks whether it can hold up once Google ships its own, and Dave explains why OpenAI's Astra is the first AI model in a long time that felt scary to use. Dave, Brit, and Jess break down the week (Sam's at the US Open).

Also this week: a former Anthropic researcher's AI doom media tour, weeks before Anthropic's IPO, and whether it's a real warning or a play for regulatory capture. Plus the Apple Watch feature that transcribes your conversations all day, Jeffrey Katzenberg's new Hollywood AI venture, and the forgotten story of Venmo's viral billboards.

In this episode:

- Dave's hands-on take on the iPhone Duo, its $2,000 price, and why Apple is going foldable now

- The Apple Watch feature that listens all day, and what it means for Granola

- Meta's Muse agent: why it knew almost nothing when asked "what do you know about me?"

- Why Google hasn't shipped its agent yet, and how trust vs. distribution shapes the agent wars

- Why OpenAI's Astra felt scary to Dave, and what happens when you run millions of them at once

- Dave's two takes on the AI doom media tour, including whether it's a play for regulatory capture

- Why the AI labs can't slow down, and OpenAI's merge clause if someone else reaches AGI

- The Venmo documentary and the "Lucas" billboards that went viral with almost no budget

Chapters:

00:00 Trailer

01:26 Can AI Agents Win Your Fantasy Football League?

02:39 Jess vs. the Bots: School Sign-Ups and Indian Wells Tickets

05:28 Apple's Big Hardware Event Under Its New CEO

06:07 iPhone Duo Hands-On: Size, Screen, and Camera

09:35 Folded Modes, Kid Cam, and the $2,000 Price Tag

11:41 Why Apple Is Going Foldable Now (Hint: China)

12:13 Apple Watch Takes On Oura and Whoop

13:12 Audio Intelligence: The Apple Watch That Listens All Day

15:25 Always-On AI and Apple's Shot at OpenAI and Meta

16:59 Meta's Muse Agent: What Does It Know About You?

20:30 The Agent Wars: Muse, Instinct, Hermes, and OpenClaw

22:26 Why Google Hasn't Shipped Its Agent Yet

23:31 Trust vs. Distribution: Meta, Google, and OpenAI

25:02 Harness Wars: Why Agents Are Still in 1982

27:13 Jeffrey Katzenberg's Hollywood AI Venture

29:35 Anthropic's IPO and the AI Doom Media Tour

30:56 If It Bleeds, It Leads: Why AI Fear Sells

32:04 Take One: A Psyop for Regulatory Capture?

33:43 Take Two: Why OpenAI's Astra Felt Scary

36:49 Why the AI Labs Can't Slow Down

38:14 OpenAI's AGI Merge Clause

40:12 The Venmo Documentary and the Ace Hotel Origin Story

45:02 How Venmo's "Lucas" Billboards Went Viral

46:31 Coming Soon: Altman, Musk, and Facebook Movies

47:41 US Open Picks and the 4 AM Match Problem

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About More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.

Sam has entered what Jessica calls the “recursive Sam loop,” producing children’s media in his own voice, letting agents deploy their own apps, and having bots track his health. But things take a turn when Claude refuses one of his requests, seemingly holds a grudge, and leaves Sam wondering whether his own AI might turn on him. That sends the squad down the bigger rabbit hole of AI control: rogue agent swarms, models breaking out of sandboxes, what “alignment” actually means, and why Dave thinks autonomous agents need an entirely new security layer. Plus, OpenClaw 2.0 goes multiplayer, everyone debates whether Slack is any good for agents, Suds explains why he avoids the AI app layer, and Tesla’s Cybercab raises questions about Waymo’s robotaxi lead. Then Google comes for Canva, Sam makes the case for boring “LLM wrappers” built for Middle America, and no one can tell whether Dario Amodei, Marc Benioff, or Taylor Swift are even real on the internet anymore. Which feels about right.

Chapters:

0:00 Episode trailer

1:10 Backstreet Boys convert Dave

3:21 The recursive Sam loop

8:58 Claude refuses Sam while Grok says yes

15:50 Can we actually contain autonomous agents?

19:10 OpenAI’s next model and the observability trade-off

22:14 If AI is this interoperable, where does anyone make money?

24:45 OpenClaw 2.0 goes multiplayer

26:26 Is Slack actually terrible for AI agents?

28:46 Suds joins the podcast

33:02 Waymo, Cybercab and the robotaxi wars

39:49 How Marc Benioff stays in the flow

42:38 Suds on investing in the AI infrastructure bottleneck

46:27 Can Google actually disrupt Canva?

51:34 Jessica gets fooled by AI on Facebook

We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/0XQ4tslBiboConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Sam is recording poolside, Jess is embracing her agentic era, and somehow that’s the least chaotic part of this week’s episode. The squad digs into Meta’s $17 billion settlement over child safety and whether social media should basically be treated like alcohol, before asking the harder question: are parents even capable of competing with algorithms anymore? Dave says parents are “outgunned,” Sam thinks most parental controls are useless policy theater, Brit wants to rethink the operating system itself, and Jess would simply like her kids to touch grass. Then, with Tim Cook preparing to pass the torch at Apple, the group debates his real legacy, whether 15 years of world-class optimization was enough, why Apple Silicon may turn out to be his most important AI bet, and whether Apple’s decision to sit out the AI infrastructure arms race will eventually look brilliant or like the company completely missed the next era.

Chapters:

0:00 Episode start

1:06 Sam goes poolside and everyone’s agents are working

4:35 Jessica enters her agentic era

7:51 Meta’s $17B child safety settlement

33:37 Could AI finally make parental controls useful?

38:47 Why Apple keeps escaping the kids-and-tech debate

43:29 Tim Cook’s Apple farewell

49:58 Apple Intelligence and Cook’s unfinished AI legacy

57:49 Backstreet Boys, the US Open and sign-off

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Stripe buys OpenRouter for billions, which naturally raises the question: did Stripe just buy critical AI infrastructure, or a very expensive router with great distribution? The original squad is back to debate why $7B acquisitions somehow feel normal now, whether Google already has agentic commerce won by owning your inbox, calendar, and Drive, and why Anthropic vs. OpenAI might be less about who has the best model and more about who built the right company. Sam makes the case that OpenAI pulled off the “greatest fundraising story in history,” Dave argues Grokbot might officially make AI a three-player race, and everyone tries to figure out how you price any of these companies when no lead seems to last. Plus, is AI a great investment or just a great trade, does the data center backlash actually have anything to do with data centers, have we built trillions of dollars of infrastructure before finding enough use cases for it, and, naturally in pop corner, Josh Kushner bought into the Lakers.

Chapters:

0:00 Episode trailer

1:00 Episode start

4:00 This week in AI

5:00 Stripe buys OpenRouter

8:30 Is OpenRouter actually worth billions?

11:00 The agentic commerce bet

14:00 Why Google could own the AI assistant

17:30 The DOJ investigates Andreessen Horowitz

22:00 Anthropic vs. OpenAI

26:00 Why OpenAI is struggling in enterprise

28:30 Can anyone actually price AI companies?

30:00 OpenAI’s “greatest fundraising story in history”

33:30 Is AI a great investment or just a great trade?

36:00 SpaceX, Moderna and narrative capitalism

37:30 Grok enters the AI race

41:00 AI makes software increasingly disposable

45:00 The AI data center backlash

47:30 “The backlash is that AI sucks”

48:30 Did we build too much AI infrastructure?

53:30 Josh Kushner, Thrive and the Lakers

55:30 Travis Kelce enters the NIL business

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A very special edition of More or Less, featuring Josh Wolfe (Founder, Lux Capital), Rachel Holt (Founder, Construct Capital; former Head of North America at Uber), Scott Belsky (Partner, A24; Founder, Behance), Scott Stanford (Founder, Acme Capital), and Peter Deng (GP, Felicis; formerly Google, Facebook, Instagram, Uber, Airtable, and OpenAI). Sam takes over hosting duties and assembles an overqualified group of investor friends to argue about where AI goes from here, from agents, Grok, Claude, and the shift from “help me do this” to “just do it,” to trust, data ownership, Apple’s AI advantage, open vs. closed models, model routing, and why proprietary data may become the real moat. They also dig into NVIDIA’s massive compute financing strategy, the risks of securitizing GPUs like long-lived infrastructure, what the OpenAI executive exodus says about the AI talent market, and the bigger question hanging over all of it: if AI really changes work, who actually participates in the upside?

Chapters

0:00 Episode trailer

1:24 Episode start

1:59 Meet the panel, every flavor of venture capital

5:14 Consumer AI agents cross the Rubicon

7:24 The end of websites, when agents talk to agents

8:32 Which AI companies do you actually trust?

11:41 Why Apple could win AI by doing nothing

16:40 If models commoditize, unique data becomes the moat

22:15 Open vs. closed AI, and who owns your data

27:06 NVIDIA’s balance sheet shenanigans

31:26 NVIDIA gets the upside, who gets the risk?

34:31 Nobody has ever securitized compute

35:02 Who owns the wealth AI creates?

39:38 What happens when economic opportunity runs out?

42:23 Why OpenAI’s best people keep leaving

47:23 Why AI may look more like GPS than Facebook

49:14 What actually happened with Airtable

50:30 Lightning Round: Rachel Holt on physical-world investing

53:00 Scott Belsky on AI watermarks, provenance & deepfakes

54:15 Josh Wolfe on socialism, Europe & defense

57:15 Final thoughts & sign-off

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Sam records from the beach while dealing with a broken bilge pump. Dave calls in after herding cattle. Fortunately, tech continues without them, which Sam takes as further proof that AGI is already running the industry. The crew unpacks Google's leadership shakeup and Jeff Dean's departure after 27 years, debates whether Airtable's sale to Bending Spoons is the blueprint for surviving the AI transition, and Sam argues that today's AI labs look increasingly like yesterday's overvalued SaaS companies. Along the way they explain why Sam's AI built his kid an iPhone game, why OpenAI's luxury creator retreat backfired, why Apple may have accidentally created its own lawsuit, and whether AI can ever overcome the growing public backlash against it.

Chapters:

0:00 Episode Trailer

1:07 Episode Start

2:08 Sam's Boston Whaler Beach Studio

3:13 Dave Herds Cattle in Montana

5:31 Google's AI Shakeup, Jeff Dean Leaves, Demis Steps Back

8:57 Why Great Researchers Don't Always Make Great CEOs

10:48 Recursive Self-Improvement and the AI Talent Wars

19:41 Airtable Sells to Bending Spoons

25:33 Not Every SaaS Company Is Dead

27:50 The Constellation Software Playbook

30:05 The Next Big Write Downs Are AI Labs

31:59 Apple vs. OpenAI, Courtesy of iCloud

35:20 OpenAI's Creator Summit Backlash

40:53 Why People Still Hate AI

43:39 AI Slop and the Content Problem

45:11 SpaceX's Lockup and Number Big

48:00 Nikita Bier Leaves X

50:22 Jess's Posting Dilemma

53:40 Next Week on More or Less

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New studio set up: the squad now records from a parked Tesla in the middle of a rainstorm while Sam is on the beach, and somehow it turned into one of our favorite episodes. We break down Meta's new AI campaign, Zuckerberg's vision for AI, why more than 1,000 frontier AI researchers are asking Washington to slow development, and whether fear has become the easiest narrative in tech. Then we get into China cracking deep ultraviolet lithography, what it means for ASML and the AI race, why AI demand still isn't slowing, Lilian Weng's move from Thinking Machines to OpenAI, and Sam's theory that Silicon Valley has developed an Oppenheimer complex.

Chapters:

0:00 Episode trailer

1:23 Episode start

9:02 Meta's Ad Campaign Rejects The Doomers

11:14 Zuckerberg's Optimism Blitz Actually Lands

13:11 AI's Dark Side Raises Easier Money

15:04 Sam's Bot Read 4GB Of Dad's Journals

17:28 Nobody Wants To Be Anthropic

18:56 Anthropic Runs On Spite For OpenAI

21:10 OpenAI Was The Original Evil Empire

22:57 Meta Is Still A Centralized Ad Company

24:46 Decentralization Loses Without A Jedi

26:01 Apple Won On Politics, Not Technology

27:16 Meta Earnings Miss On Lawsuits And Severance

28:33 China Cracks DUV, ASML Takes The Hit

29:57 Execs Privately Reject The China AI War

32:39 The Compute Debate Gavin Baker Started

39:13 X Is The Tech Town Square Now

46:57 Lilian Weng Quits For Health, Joins OpenAI

53:50 AI Is A Crisis Of Meaning

54:57 Book The Conference Before You're Invited

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Deep summer check-in from the More or Less squad. Dave is back on Instagram after a year away (thanks to Stagecoach), Jessica reviews Benson Boone's Wanted Man tour, Chris Stapleton's Montana show gets a shoutout, and Sam is traveling with a Yeti cooler full of peptides.

Don’t worry, this is still a tech podcast: OpenAI revealed an AI that escaped its testing sandbox and hacked Hugging Face. The crew's hot take is that OpenAI is leaning into the story to strengthen its narrative as revenue growth slows. Then, Stripe could be eyeing PayPal. Sam argues Stripe missed a once-in-a-generation opportunity by staying private instead of using public stock as acquisition currency the way Meta did with WhatsApp. They also explain why agentic commerce still isn't real, despite the hype. Plus, “Peptide Corner” returns with reports from the Hamptons, where peptides have officially gone mainstream, rich people inflation has reached $67 for two cappuccinos and sandwiches, and Sam shares an update on his recovering knee.

Chapters:

0:00 Episode Trailer

2:07 Dave Returns to Instagram, Sam Turns 43, and More

8:41 OpenAI's AI Escaped Its Sandbox

16:43 The National Guard Analogy

31:57 Sam's Bot Rebellion Theory

37:44 Is Stripe Buying PayPal?

47:48 Why Agentic Commerce Isn't Here Yet

49:40 Peptide Corner

52:53 Rich People Inflation

54:03 Sam's Knee Recovery

56:47 The GLP-1 Playbook

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You know we're deep into summer when Jess leaves the pod early to catch Benson Boone... for the eighth time.

This week, the More or Less squad revisits the Anthropic and OpenAI IPO speculation. Their views haven't changed, but their AI usage certainly has. Dave ditches Anthropic for GLM 5.2 on cost, while Sam argues the AI model wars are effectively over, and the frontier labs know it, which is why they're spending more time in Washington than competing on model quality. America also gets its first serious open weights model. The squad also unpacks OpenAI's hardware ambitions after its much-hyped device turns out to be... an Alexa speaker. Sam explains why Sam Altman's $8 billion Johnny Ive acquisition was effectively free, thanks to narrative capitalism. Plus: real-time voice AI, passive listening devices, peptides, Hinge's new social proof feature, Jay-Z turning New York into a festival, and why biological age tests are basically the clout score of your body.

Chapters:

0:00 Episode Teaser

0:44 Episode Start

2:18 Anthropic IPO This September?

5:29 Dave Dumps Anthropic for GLM 5.

28:22 When Is Better AI Worth Paying For?

12:15 AGI Is Dead, AI Is Political Now

16:15 America's First Open Weights Model By Thinking Machines

21:22 Why Sam Is Depressed About AI

29:07 OpenAI Built... an Alexa? The $8B Johnny Ive Bet

31:38 Silicon Valley Goes Hollywood

36:03 Would You Wear an Always-On Mic?

37:08 OpenAI's Live Voice Model

41:14 Sam's Peptide Experiment

43:36 Hinge Launches “Friend’s Take”

46:11 Jay-Z's NYC Takeover

48:16 Biological Age Is Just a Clout Score

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The full quad is back, unpacking OpenAI's offer to give the U.S. government an equity stake. Sam's take: it's less a marketing win than a distress signal. The squad also debates whether Trump Accounts actually reach everyday Americans (Brit is skeptical), defends MacKenzie Scott from the internet's endless opinions about her philanthropy, and digs into Dave's argument that AI labs are slowly strangling the developer ecosystems that could save them.They also tackle Xbox's identity crisis and whether Microsoft should just sell it, the Nex Playground device (In Sam's words: non-VR Beat Saber for families), why 2026 is shaping up to be extreme nihilism wrapped in Silicon Valley optimism, Brit's take that AI has shifted from revolutionary to evolutionary, and, of course in pop culture corner, Brit claiming full credit for calling the Taylor Swift wedding strategy.

Chapters:

0:00 Episode Trailer

0:47 Episode Begins

1:10 Fourth of July Recap, Bald Eagles & the No VC Summer

5:10 OpenAI Offered the U.S. Government Equity

11:15 Trump Accounts, Giving Every American Kid a Stake in Capitalism

15:02 Stop Judging MacKenzie Scott's Philanthropy

18:40 AI Labs Are Distressed and Destroying Their Ecosystems

21:50 AI Labs Are Competing With Their Own Developers

35:26 Xbox Is in Trouble, Should Microsoft Sell It?

37:52 Nex, the Quiet Wii Revival Nobody Saw Coming

41:49 Sam's 2026 Prediction: Extreme Nihilism Meets Silicon Valley Optimism

44:04 Vox Americanus Update

46:18 Brit Is Bored of AI. It's Evolution, Not Revolution

48:22 Post-AGI Funds Are a Bad Bet, Physical AI Could Be the Real Revolution

49:27 Going Long on Offline, World Cup, Concerts & Real Life

51:50 Pop Culture Corner: Brit Calls Taylor Swift's Wedding Strategy

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The full quad is back just before the Fourth of July. Dave and Sam explain why padel is just pickleball for fancy people, Sam vibe-coded an app to prove you’re actually American on the internet (Vox Americanus is real and you can use it: https://voxamericanus.com), and Dave even nominates Sam for office, even though Sam insists we should fix the job before electing anyone actually good for it.

The crew also dives into why non-engineers are more capable than they think in the age of agentic coding, Claude Fable 5’s government clearance “drama” and return, how GLM 5.2 is quietly replacing Opus 4 on real agent stacks, why Anthropic is still printing revenue despite open source pressure, and the case for an open source router.. They wrap with pop culture corner: Taylor Swift wedding intel and Brit’s review of Alpha School.

Chapters:

0:00 Episode trailer

0:50 Episode start

1:12 Full Quad Pre-4th of July, Is There Such a Thing as VC Summer?

3:32 Padel Is the New VC Networking Sport, Pickleball Is for the Plebs

9:10 Vox Americanus, Can You Actually Prove You're American Online?

15:25 Should Sam Run for Office? Fix the Job Description First

29:30 Agentic Coding, You're Not Too Late

35:33 Claude Fable 5 Is Back, Government Clearance Drama Explained

41:08 GLM 5.2, Open Source Just Quietly Replaced Opus 4

46:16 Anthropic Still Printing Revenue, The Case for an Open Source Router

47:29 Taylor Swift's Wedding

49:36 Alpha School, Brit's Kids Try AI Education

52:12 America's 250th Birthday

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The quad is back. Dave and Brit rejoin Sam and Jess fresh off a More or Less fan encounter at the Zurich airport. It was quite the week for Meta as the squad breaks down the company’s new line of glasses featuring Kylie Jenner (or, in Jess’ words, Kendall), and Brit makes the call that this is finally the watershed moment for women buying smart glasses ( The men seem to be the early adopters, Dave wore his in the Sistine Chapel, and Sam owns 10+ pairs.). Then they get into Meta’s prediction market: a genuinely interesting information machine or a very efficient way to addict twenty-somethings to fake gambling? In true MOL fashion, the squad is split. Sam is all in, Dave is worried it’ll work too well, and Brit thinks it’ll all click when you tie it to The Bachelor. Dave also ran GLM 5.2 on eight Nvidia B200s with some hacker friends and came away shaken. Open source is now matching, if not outperforming, frontier models at 10x the speed, raising uncomfortable questions about the enormous bets sitting on frontier labs today. Remember last year’s AI talent war? It’s back, and Jess argues it’s really an early indicator of investor insecurity. Finally, in pop culture corner: Cannes and Sam’s unsolicited review of The Information's new mobile app.

Chapters:

0:00 Episode trailer

0:50 Intro

1:12 MOL Got Recognized at the Zurich Airport

3:02 What’s on the Agenda Today

5:04 Meta Smart Glasses, The Moment Women Finally Buy In?

14:20 Meta’s Prediction Markets, Brilliant or Addictive?

19:39 Polymarket’s Influencer Problem

22:48 AI Talent Wars, Investors Are Reading the Wrong Signals

25:40 GLM 5.2 on Nvidia B200s, Open Source Catches Frontier Models

28:20 AI Token Spend, Sam’s $1,500/Month Experiment

31:04 Sam Reviews The Information App Live

36:17 Anthropic, Dell, and the Math Behind Generational Returns

43:30 Cannes Lions, Worth It or Corporate Boondoggle?

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Sam and Jessica go two-on-two this week to unpack the SpaceX IPO and whether a $2.5 trillion valuation is actually justified, exploring why “it’s valuable because it’s valuable” may be a legitimate investment thesis and why Cursor’s $60 billion acquisition looks cheap in that context. They also break down Anthropic’s clash with the U.S. government over Fable 5, with Sam arguing the crackdown could be the best marketing in AI history, before debating the risks of tying software access to nationality. The episode closes with Meta’s AI morale problem, OpenAI burning nearly $4 billion in Q1 on $5.7 billion in revenue, the case for a multi-model future where no single frontier model wins, and why Sam believes token economics may be one of the most overlooked opportunities in economics. In lieu of Pop Culture Corner, Jessica brings a Reed Hastings book recommendation, while Sam once again demonstrates that having conviction and acting on it are apparently two different skill sets. After eight months of pitching DigitalOcean, he still doesn’t own the stock.

Chapters:

00:00 - Teaser

01:47 - SpaceX IPO Analysis

09:17 - Narrative Assets and Retail Investing

12:09 - The Future of AI Models and Infrastructure

16:00 - Corporate Narratives, Employee Motivation, and Meta’s AI Challenges

22:58 - OpenAI’s Market Strategy and Impact

25:19 - Open Source Models and Market Share

27:01 - Economics of Tokens and Innovation

33:01 - Anthropic’s PR Strategy and Fable Model Release

35:24 - Government Stakes in AI Companies

39:04 - Reed Hasting's Book Recommendation

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Seven years after Slow wrote its first check, Sam sits down with Teamshares CEO Mike Brown as the company prepares to go public. Mike’s core insight is simple: America has millions of durable, cash-flowing small businesses, but no great long-term owner. After buying and operating electrical contractors himself, he realized the opportunity wasn’t another marketplace or PE roll-up, it was building a permanent holding company that acquires great businesses, gives employees ownership, and never sells. Today, Teamshares owns 92 businesses generating roughly $60M in EBITDA. The conversation explores why most roll-ups fail, why capital allocation is the true operating system of the business, and why the traditional private equity model may be running out of steam. Mike closes with an ambitious goal: grow corporate EBITDA from $19M to $100M by 2027 and create a forever home for thousands of small businesses.

Chapters:

00:00 Episode Teaser Featuring Mike Brown, Teamshares CEO

01:11 The Teamshares Origin Story

04:48 From Wall Street to Buying Small Businesses

10:47 Why Going Direct to Sellers Didn’t Work (The FSBO Problem)

13:18 Buying at Scale, The Teamshares Model

15:27 92 Acquisitions and $60M EBITDA, Lessons Learned

18:26 Why Generalist Hires Didn’t Work

19:08 Building a Leadership Pipeline

23:46 The Internal YC, Community Across Portfolio Companies

27:42 How Technology Powers 92 Businesses

28:08 “Will This Business Exist in 50 Years?”

32:21 Why Most Roll-Ups Fail

37:30 The Road to $100M EBITDA

39:51 The Long-Term Vision

40:58 Capital Allocation as a Competitive Advantage

42:34 Decentralized Leadership, Centralized Capital

46:16 Why Private Equity Fails Small Businesses

49:25 Going Public, What Comes Next

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Important Disclosures and Disclaimers: Teamshares has entered into a definitive agreement for a business combination with Live Oak Crest Acquisition Corp. (“Live Oak”), a special purpose acquisition company. In connection with the proposed transaction, a registration statement on Form S-4 (the “Registration Statement”) has been filed with, and been declared effective by, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (the “SEC”). This podcast does not constitute an offer to sell or the solicitation of an offer to buy any securities. For important information about the proposed transaction, including where to find the Registration Statement and other legal disclaimers, please refer to the press release available at https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20260527344175/en/Teamshares-Announces-S-4-Effectiveness-in-Anticipation-of-Nasdaq-Listing.Clarifications:

Teamshares currently has 93 operating subsidiaries. Additionally, Teamshares has had documented revenue declines and business closures. A full reconciliation of non-GAAP measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures, as well as Teamshares’ audited GAAP financial statements, is available in the Registration Statement. Investors should review the full set of assumptions and risk factors accompanying these metrics in the Registration Statement.

Dave joins the squad from YC just ahead of WWDC, where the group breaks down Apple’s upgraded Siri and the surprising revelation that much of Apple’s AI capability is powered by Google’s Gemini models. It wouldn’t be a technology podcast without the squad expanding into the broader AI landscape, with Dave arguing that outside of OpenAI and Anthropic, most AI companies are becoming infrastructure providers rather than destination products. They continue to unpack the IPO frenzy around SpaceX and OpenAI, including SpaceX’s reportedly massive investor demand and OpenAI’s murky timeline to go public. Jess then shifts the conversation to the turmoil at 60 Minutes, where leadership shakeups, internal revolts, and a declining brand presence raise questions about the future of legacy media. Finally, in Pop Culture Corner, the pod closes with Disney’s $200 million bet on Toy Story 5 and Taylor Swift’s outsized promotional impact.

Chapters:

01:53 Apple WWDC: New Siri Breakdown

05:18 Google Gemini Powers Apple AI

07:06 WWDC Ignored Developers Entirely

10:21 Tim Cook’s Leadership Baton Pass

14:30 SpaceX IPO and OpenAI Filing

18:00 Anthropic vs. OpenAI Narrative War

21:48 Dave Morin’s Two-Phone Redemption

26:52 60 Minutes Leadership Implosion

38:44 Toy Story 5 and Taylor Swift

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Brit subs in for Jess as Sam and Dave unpack the AI IPO boom, including SpaceX, Anthropic, and Cerebras, debate whether AI agents can actually replace employees, and react live to the discovery that Slow’s @slow Instagram account was stolen through a Meta AI support exploit. The conversation spans OpenClaw’s enterprise push, recent AI funding rounds, the AI wrapper debate, and Sam’s latest investing thesis that startup pitches should look more like movie trailers than decks, before ending with a pop culture corner into Taylor Swift, AI-generated podcasts for kids, and the future of TBPN after the OpenAI deal.

Chapters:

02:53 AI IPO Season: SpaceX, Anthropic & Cerebras

05:29 Narrative Capitalism: Storing Value in Stories

11:34 What the AI IPO Wave Means for Silicon Valley

15:02 Microsoft Build: OpenClaw Goes Enterprise

17:38 Would You Trade Your Employee for an AI Agent?

25:19 LIVE: Slow Ventures’ Instagram Gets Hacked via Meta AI

30:04 Are AI Harnesses Just Fancy PDFs?

31:49 Recent AI Raises & the SaaS Comeback

33:01 The New Pitch: Movie Trailers Over Decks

41:17 AI-Generated Podcasts, Voice Cloning & Consumer AI

42:54 TBPN Update: Post-OpenAI Deal

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This week on More or Less, Amir Efrati of The Information joins Jessica, Brit, and Dave to unpack the growing intersection of AI, government, and national security, from the rumored stalled executive AI order to why frontier model companies may soon face deeper U.S. oversight and pre-release access demands. The group debates whether slowing AI adoption is really a pricing and UX problem, why AI agents are causing token consumption to explode, and whether most consumers even want an always-on personal agent. They also dive into the geopolitical implications of data centers and open-source software, AI’s impact on entertainment and voice cloning, Hollywood’s anxiety over originality, and the strange new world where even papal writings prompt questions about whether AI had a hand in shaping the message.

Chapters:

1:57 — AI Predictions, Whispering to Models & Forecasting the Future

4:37 — AI, National Security & the Trump Administration

6:52 — The Pope’s AI Document, Closed Models & Security Risks

11:56 — AI Regulation, Job Fears & Public Sentiment

15:45 — Is AI Adoption Slowing Down? Pricing, ROI & Enterprise Reality

21:00 — Agents, CIOs & Whether Mainstream Users Will Ever Embrace AI

36:00 — AI Entertainment, Voice Cloning & Hollywood’s Future

41:52 — Going Off-Grid, Book Recommendations & Digital Detoxes

47:00 — Mark Rober, CrunchLabs & the $10,000 Bullseye Story

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This week on More or Less, the crew unpacks IPO speculation around OpenAI and SpaceX, debates whether AI’s economics ultimately favor recurring API spend or owning infrastructure outright, questions if Google’s distribution advantage is enough to win the AI race despite muddled product execution, and wrestles with whether today’s AI valuations are driven by real fundamentals or pure mimetic momentum, alongside broader debates on broken AI user experience, data center concentration risk, agentic search killing SEO, and whether skilled trades like plumbing may ultimately prove more durable than many white-collar jobs in the AI era.

Chapters:

01:35 — Brit’s fish disaster story + the fish microbiome economy

04:50 — Dell World, AI PCs, and the tokenomics debate (API spend vs. owning infrastructure)

11:00 — Google I/O recap: agentic search, generative UI, Android glasses, and whether Google is actually back

16:30 — Google’s UX problem: why AI still feels broken for normal users

20:00 — Anthropic vs. Google: focused monolith vs. sprawling empire

22:10 — OpenAI IPO speculation + Anthropic’s mega-round: what do you have to believe at $1T valuations?

29:30 — The “hate invest” thesis: public sentiment, retail risk, and crypto déjà vu

34:20 — Portfolio debate: SpaceX vs. Anthropic vs. OpenAI

35:00 — Sam builds an AI token pricing dashboard live + how companies actually burn $30K/month on tokens

37:00 — What’s next in AI research? Memory, world models, and where infra plays went

42:30 — White House AI model oversight rumors + OpenAI’s Elon legal update

50:10 — AI side projects, kids learning to code, and why plumbers may win the AI era

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The squad is complete again, and Sam arrives with a NeuroPod, cold plunge updates, red light therapy, Oura stats, and enough supplements to start a wellness startup. Then into the week’s biggest tech stories: Google’s new AI device and whether it’s the Chromebook of the AI era or another doomed health-tech experiment, Meta’s keystroke logging controversy, Microsoft’s increasingly awkward OpenAI bet, why OpenAI and Anthropic are now sending engineers directly into enterprises to drive adoption, and what tools like OpenClaw, Py, and Codex actually do. Plus, Anthropic’s eye-watering latest valuation, the clean girl aesthetic discourse, Brian Johnson chaos, and Sam personally buying Jackson Hole ski passes like it’s 1997

Chapters:

00:46 Sam’s NeuroPod, Oura Results & Biohacking Spiral

03:33 Sam vs. Brian Johnson + The Female Biohacker Opportunity

05:09 Oura Ring vs. Whoop + Google’s Wearables Ambition

07:00 Google’s AI-First “Book” Laptop + DeepMind’s Health Push

10:30 Why Local AI Changes Everything (Speed, Cost & Compute)

15:00 Where Is the OpenAI Consumer Device?

16:00 Voice AI, Recording & the Future of Human-Computer Input

20:30 Sam Built His Own Voice-to-AI App

22:31 Meta’s Keystroke Logging: Spy Games or Honeypot?

24:00 Fake AI Jobs + Sam’s “Fin Analytics” Prediction

27:02 OpenAI & Anthropic’s Enterprise Conversion Strategy

29:31 The AI Backlash Is Real (Including UCF’s Commencement Revolt)

31:30 Microsoft’s $100B OpenAI Problem

39:31 Anthropic’s Massive Raise + SF Real Estate Absurdity

41:30 OpenClaw, Py & Codex: What Is a Harness?

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Jess, Britt, and Dave unpack everything from Home Depot runs and closet “re-jiggers” to the internet’s growing backlash against tech wealth, AI, and Silicon Valley culture. The squad debates whether the Met Gala became a symbol of “techlash,” how layoffs and AI anxiety are reshaping public sentiment, and whether AI will actually democratize opportunity or simply concentrate power faster. They also dive into the wild new AI alliances between Anthropic, Elon, and hyperscalers, the latest OpenAI vs Elon trial drama, and why product adoption, not regulation, will decide the future of AI. Plus, Dave shares major OpenClaw updates, real-world AI workflow automations, Meta fork rumors, and the surprisingly relatable use case of turning meeting transcripts into family “receipt printer” briefings. Rounded out with solo movie dates, Taylor Swift theories, Star Wars discourse, and the state of flake culture.

Chapters:

00:58 Jess' Home Renovation Project While Sam is Out

03:54 Met Gala: When the Bezoses Became the Story

07:13 Techlash, Wealthlash, and the AI Jobs Backlash

09:36 Trump’s Surprise Pivot Toward AI Regulation

11:51 China, Open-Source Models, and Dave’s $5K Blackwell Desktop

14:13 The Optimistic Case: AI as the Great Wealth Equalizer

17:55 The Pessimistic Case: Tools Democratize, Economics Consolidate

19:43 What Changes Public Sentiment: Better Products, Not Better Arguments

22:42 Layoffs: Pandemic Hangover or AI Substitution?

27:56 Why Almost No One Is Actually Using AI Yet

33:15 Anthropic’s Compute Scramble and the SpaceX/Colossus Deal

36:27 Dario vs. Elon: Two Very Different Operators

39:55 The OpenAI vs. Musk Trial: TMZ or Substance?

45:33 Polymarket, Twitter-Mention Betting, and ChatGPT Comeback

46:42 OpenClaw Update: Foundation, Plugin Architecture, China Forks

50:08 Granola + Claude Code: Replacing Salesforce in 30 Minutes

53:36 Devil Wears Prada, Solo Movie Dates, and the Death of Journalism

55:01 Music & Pop Culture: Ella Langley, Teddy Swims, Toy Story 5

56:36 Why Star Wars Keeps Missing

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This week on More or Less, the crew kicks off with a very on-brand derail—Stagecoach turning into a wind-blown 90s reunion-turned-half-capacity vibe, segueing into a chaotic trend report of “booty shorts vs. jorts” before Jessica reframes it as “OpenAI or jorts.” From there, it’s into the real storylines: the Musk v. OpenAI trial in Oakland (Altman and Brockman showing up, Musk posturing, and the judge shutting down theatrics), and whether it’s substance or just WWE for tech. The AI race heats up with reports of ChatGPT missing targets while Anthropic pulls ahead, sparking a broader debate on whether frontier models are sliding into commodity territory—Sam argues narrative over fundamentals while Dave pushes on open-source pressure and who actually foots the data center bill. The conversation expands into geopolitics (regulatory capture, China’s open-source momentum, Meta’s blocked agent play) and earnings (Google Cloud riding Anthropic demand), landing on a sneaky insight: AI’s real cost explosion might be storage, not tokens. They close with a rapid-fire culture sweep—Maria Sharapova’s podcast, NYT rankings, Elon’s Mars comp fantasy, Met Gala backlash, and the final punchline: YouTube growth is way more gameable than anyone wants to admit.

Chapters:

00:34 — Stagecoach Chaos: Tornado Winds & Half-Crowd Vibes

01:43 — Summer Trend Report: Booty Shorts vs. Jorts

02:56 — “OpenAI or Jorts?” The Hard Pivot

04:15 — Musk vs OpenAI Trial Begins (And It’s Already Messy)

06:40 — Gag Orders, Jury Drama & Musk’s Opening Stunt

09:03 — Is This Lawsuit Just WWE for Tech?

11:46 — Anthropic Passes OpenAI?! The AI Power Shift

13:57 — AI Is Becoming a Commodity (Sam’s Take)

15:24 — The Real Cost of AI: Tokens vs Labor

18:53 — Open Source Is Eating Everything

21:08 — Outcome-Based Pricing: Fix or Race to Zero?

23:16 — “This Is a Bad Business” (But Everyone Uses It)

26:04 — The Only AI Moat: Regulation or Narrative

29:02 — Why Frontier Models Still Matter

32:04 — China, Open Source & AI Geopolitics

35:06 — Meta’s Blocked AI Deal (Spy Game Energy)

38:07 — Google Wins the AI Race (For Now)

41:23 — The $5B Opportunity Nobody’s Talking About

43:34 — The Real AI Trade: Storage > Tokens

46:58 — Investing Is Dead, Long Live Narrative

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The full quad is back and we're getting right into the tech drama: AI backlash (from Reese Witherspoon to everyday skepticism), breakthrough science like CRISPR entering its “it actually works” era, and major power shifts across tech — from Apple succession chatter to Jensen Huang’s leadership moments and the brewing battle between OpenAI and Elon Musk. They squad digs into SpaceX IPO dynamics, the rise of “traces” data as the next AI battleground, and what happens when AI gives more people the power to build.

Chapters:

0:17 — Welcome Back: Full Quad Edition

1:07 — Creatine, AI Stuffies, and the Opening Chaos

4:37 — Breakthrough Prize & CRISPR Finally Working

5:47 — One-of-One Gene Therapy Becomes Real

7:07 — The AI Backlash Is Real8:47 — UBI vs. Meaning: The Real Debate

10:57 — Jensen’s “I Didn’t Wake Up a Loser Today” Moment

12:47 — Apple Succession: Tim Cook → John Ternus

16:17 — Asset Prices vs. Reality21:17 — Elon vs. OpenAI: The Trial

27:07 — SpaceX IPO: Biggest in History?

29:27 — xAI, Cursor, and the $60B Bet

36:07 — Traces Data: The Next AI Battleground

40:07 — Workplace Surveillance & Employee Data

48:27 — Who Gets to Build? (6B Users vs. 50M Builders)

51:07 — AI: Equalizer or Concentrator?

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SpaceX might be the biggest IPO ever but there’s a math problem no one’s pricing in. Once you factor in capital gains, you need to believe it’ll underperform the market by ~50% just to justify selling. That creates an invisible floor under mega-cap stocks and a market increasingly detached from reality. Meanwhile: Allbirds goes from $4B to $40M and pivots to “NewBird AI.” Seed valuations hit $175M — 3x YoY, above 2021 peak. And AI labs are allegedly planting stories on each other. This week on More or Less: SpaceX’s $19B revenue / $5B losses, the AI bubble, Anthropic $800B rumors, and why fund math is breaking.

Chapters:

0:00 — Waymo vs. Uber: the autonomous tipping point

8:29 — Allbirds: $4B → $40M → “NewBird AI”

12:56 — Boom Supersonic and the data center pivot

15:17 — SpaceX IPO: bulls vs. bears

16:14 — The tax problem no one is pricing in

20:16 — Can mega-cap still 50x?

26:47 — SpaceX breakdown: Starlink vs. launch

28:20 — Anthropic $800B rumors

30:08 — OpenAI vs. Anthropic: leaks and competition

31:08 — The model switching problem (no real moat)

33:36 — AI behavior shift: “ask the agent”

38:17 — AI labs running oppo research

40:05 — Seed valuations surpass 2021 peak

42:00 — Fund math is broken

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Vercel CEO Guillermo Rauch breaks down the explosive rise of AI agents and what it means for the future of software infrastructure. He joins the Morins to unpack why Anthropic cut off OpenClaw users, why the SaaS subscription model is breaking down, how agents are reshaping cloud infrastructure, and why a new wave of “supergeniuses” (from neurosurgeons to 17-year-olds) are building things no one thought possible. Plus: dreams.md, the future of personal agents, and why agents are becoming the new computer.

Chapters:

00:42 Intro: Guillermo Rauch, CEO and Founder of Vercel

01:48 Vercel Explodes 5X Growth and AI Traffic Surge

03:51 Why Anthropic Shut Down OpenClaw Users

04:47 Coding Agents Are the Path to AGI

07:57 70 Percent of Vercel Traffic Is Now AI

09:50 SaaS Is Dead Pay Per Token Takes Over

13:16 Anthropic vs OpenClaw Closed vs Open Agents

14:47 The Hidden Risk of AI Data and Training

16:38 Why Everyone Wants Their Own AI

18:08 The Shift to Agent Native Infrastructure

19:45 Vibe Coded Apps Are Going Viral

21:42 The AI Wars Anthropic OpenAI Elon

23:15 Dreams md Self Improving AI Agents

25:44 Memory Theory of Mind and Agent Intelligence

28:05 Your AI Should Travel With You

30:00 Enterprise AI and Domain Expert Agents

31:15 How Vercel Became an AI Native Company

33:06 Hiring in the Age of AI Agents

36:03 The Rise of Supergeniuses

38:10 Inside Slows Creator AI Hackathon

40:06 AI Agents Are the New Customers

41:18 Moving Up the Stack Again

42:05 What Happens in the Next 12 Months

43:48 AI Will Break Cloud and Security

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Sam Lessin accidentally emailed 40 of Silicon Valley's most important people using an AI bot — and that one mishap reveals everything broken about the AI security model right now. In this episode, Sam and Dave Morin (calling in from ClawCon Tokyo) argue that AI agents are quietly dismantling every security assumption the internet was built on: from open-source package trust chains to content moderation walls to the entire premise of software moats. Meanwhile, Jessica Lessin shares her own Claude Code disaster that proves even careful people are one 'approve' click away from chaos. The team also tears apart OpenAI's $852 billion valuation, debate whether 10 million software developers are about to become irrelevant, and explain why a professional skier in Alaska just built the app she'd been pitching for two years — in a single afternoon.

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Jess and Brit take the reins on this week's More or Less — and they're not exactly missing their husbands. They're joined by Henrik Werdelin (Audos), who's building a platform that takes solo founders from zero to funded company using AI agents, and Ben Broca (Polsia), a literal one-human, zero-employee founder who argues AGI is already here. What follows is a sharp, funny debate about whether solo "donkeycorns" are the future of entrepreneurship, where AI actually hits its limits, and why defensibility in an AI world might come down to the most analog thing of all — knowing yourself and the humans you serve.

Chapters:

1:05 — Britt & Jess take over More or Less

3:15 — Meet Henrik Werdelin (Audos) & Ben Broca (Polsia)

5:00 — The Donkeycorn Era: Solo founders making millions with AI

8:15 — "AGI Is Here" — Ben's case for one founder, zero employees

10:30 — Jess vs. Ben: "My Claude can't remember" / "Skill issue"

17:00 — When AI suggested fecal transplant businesses (Henrik's wild early experiments)

19:00 — Relationship Capital: The real moat in an AI world

23:00 — Building an economy, not a tool — Ben's vision for Polsia

25:30 — Will AI democratize opportunity or just commoditize it?

32:00 — Bot Etiquette: When your AI emails psychics on your behalf

40:00 — The Sora Shutdown: "It's all just electricity"

42:30 — Is speed the only moat? Anthropic vs. OpenAI

46:30 — The Brain Gym: Why knowing yourself matters more than ever

52:00 — Wrap: SpaceX IPO, Aura IPO, and "Me, My Customer, and AI"

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It’s going to be a dense episode on OpenClaw—and another classic example of how skeptical Sam is about its future, battling against Dave. The episode starts with Dave’s announcement: The OpenClaw Foundation is now a chartered Delaware nonprofit. Then: GTC. Jessica hits the floor, takes seven selfies, and watches Jensen go for three hours with no notes. Dave explains why Nvidia gave OpenClaw 30 minutes of keynote time: NemoClaw, OpenShell, enterprise guardrails, local models, on-prem everything. Jessica breaks down The Information’s story about a rogue AI agent tripping internal security at Meta—which becomes the perfect setup for a broader point: trust isn’t a feature; it’s the entire game. Then Apple. BitRig—built by the people who literally created SwiftUI—has been stuck in App Store review since November because Guideline 2.5.2 says apps can’t download and execute code that changes functionality. The security logic tracks. Apple’s selective enforcement history? Less so. The crew closes with the part nobody’s ready for: Morin’s 11-year-old just formed his first LLC for a vibe-coded iOS game, and a group of 12-year-olds at an AI school in Austin out-shipped every adult developer at ClawCon.

Chapters:

02:14 - NVIDIA GTC Preview & Episode Roadmap

02:54 - The Rise of the "Master of Bots" Role

04:39 - Bot Anxiety & the Luxury AI vs. Cheap AI Divide

08:55 - NVIDIA GTC: Jensen as AI's Storyteller-in-Chief

17:21 - Nemo Claw, OpenShell & NVIDIA's Big OpenClaw Moment

23:02 - What Even Is OpenClaw? Sam Challenges Dave

29:51 - Breaking News: Rogue AI Agent Triggers Meta Security Alert

38:54 - OpenAI's Enterprise Pivot & the Anthropic Revenue Race

43:00 - Apple vs. Vibe Coding Apps: The App Store Bottleneck

51:34 - Kids, Claws & Cool Family Tech (Board.fun, Next Playground)

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It’s an AI-heavy episode with real stakes: Jessica digs into OpenAI’s evolving approach to shopping and why “closing the loop” on commerce could be the proving ground for consumer monetization. The group sparrs over charts: OpenAI vs. Anthropic annualized revenue, what “slope” investors actually care about, and whether Anthropic’s developer-first strategy (code, tokens, and high ARPU) is the smarter path than consumer mindshare.Sam argues that “intelligence” is heading toward a global, frictionless commodity market (bad for margins, great for usage) and introduces the idea of “dark pools” (proprietary access/data/relationships) as the only durable moat. Dave counters with the more optimistic take: AI is collapsing the line between “consumer” and “developer,” turning everyone into a builder, and launching a new creative medium (with examples spanning from software to film). Brit adds fuel with “nano-targeted” commerce and a tour through A16Z’s Top 50 GenAI web products list, highlighting both mainstream shifts and the internet’s… more ‘unexpected’ categories.Finally: a truly out-of-left-field deal pitch from Jess: should someone buy the Tennis Channel for ~$1B? Plus a rapid-fire pop culture close (Kelce’s return, Oscars bets, and what everyone’s watching) before Sam heads back to the sauna.

Chapters:

0:00 — Intro & Sam's Sauna Hat

1:33 — First-Ever MOL Podcast Ad

3:54 — ChatGPT's Shopping Pivot

7:19 — The Chart: OpenAI vs Anthropic Revenue

11:52 — The Slope: Linear or Super Linear?

16:10 — Commerce Is Bad. Attention Is Good.

19:04 — AI Is Turning Everyone Into a Builder

20:15 — "$1B Raised, $900M spent on Inference"

23:17 — AI Is Worse Than the Cable Business

35:58 — Dark Pools: Death of the Open Marketplace

40:45 — The P50 Problem: What Happens to Average People?

42:38 — "Software Is Totally Commoditized"

45:43 — Brit's Bot Corner: Anime Husband Chatbots

50:44 — Should You Buy the Tennis Channel for $1B?

54:22 — Pop Culture Corner

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This week the squad breaks down the Anthropic vs OpenAI drama (Fire Sam Altman is trending again), debates whether Apple is quietly winning the AI race by spending $0 while everyone else burns $100 billion, and confronts the question no one in Silicon Valley wants to answer: why aren't 200,000 software engineers talking about losing their jobs? Sam's answer: "Because it would be to admit you're in the 200,000 getting fired, not the 200,000 getting paid more." Plus: is China winning the open source AI phenomenon, is a recession coming (Lux Capital thinks so), and how Sam believes “code is just content” despite having built six apps in a week while on conference calls, including an AI clone of the podcast using everyone's real voices. It’s your weekly dive of More or Less.

Chapters:

1:30 — Fire Sam Altman Trending Again: Dario's Leaked Slack Memo

10:15 — Sam's Vibe Coding Week: 6 Apps Including AI Versions of the Hosts

17:00 — Why AI Content Tends to Zero

20:00 — Apple M5 Chip: The Local AI Inference Play

23:30 — Block Cuts 40% of Workforce

25:30 — Will 200,000 Bay Area Software Engineers Lose Their Jobs?

30:00 — "Code Wins Arguments — But Now Everyone Can Code"

34:30 — Josh Wolfe's (Lux Capital) Recession Warning Email

36:30 — The Triangle Trade: DC, Silicon Valley & Wall Street's Narrative Collusion

39:00 — Yemen/Houthi Strike & Defense Tech

41:00 — Is Open Source AI a Chinese Phenomenon?

46:00 — The Second Wave: Agents Are the Website of This Era

49:00 — David's Protein Ice Cream

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Starting with a mini celebration: Dave defends his ski racing crown, before Sam declares software dead and capitalism broken. Even among GPs at Upfront Summit, the mood is uncertain: nobody knows whether to invest in software anymore, and many are quietly struggling to raise.The debate heats up over whether AI will democratize software creation or just accelerate capitalism's race to zero margins. Sam argues that when intelligence becomes abundant, it becomes worthless, making the entire AI industry, and by extension Silicon Valley, "pretty bad business." Dave counters that we're about to see a Cambrian explosion of software creators, finally giving billions of people agency over their digital lives.Plus: whether Stripe should buy PayPal during this opportunistic Trump-administration window, Gen Z panic-buying original iPods, Sam's shitposting-to-funding pipeline, and whether OnlyFans has the best KYC in fintech

Chapters:

7:24 - Upfront Summit: Where Are All the LPs?

10:49 - Are VCs Still Investing in Software?

12:04 - Slow Ventures Going Contrarian: Investing While Others Freeze

13:27 - When Intelligence Goes to Zero: Why AI is Bad Business

15:53 - Polsia: $100K to $700K ARR in One Week (AI Agents Only)

19:39 - Capitalism's Black Hole: AI Makes Markets Too Efficient

25:00 - Creator Fund Thesis: Investing in Cults, Not Content

28:20 - Who Makes Money When Margins Hit Zero?

34:41 - Silicon Valley's Advantage is DEAD (The Magic Wizard Hat)

37:35 - Who Should Buy PayPal? (Stripe's One-Shot Window)

42:11 - Agentic Commerce: Do Payment Networks Even Matter?

45:18 - OpenAI Smart Speaker: Eddie Cue's Son Working on It

46:51 - Gen Z Buying Original iPods: The Analog Rebellion

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In this episode of More or Less, we go from Sam's urgent care drama to the hottest debates in AI. Dave dives into his news about joining the OpenClaw Foundation board as the fastest-growing open source project in internet history faces a new chapter. While the OpenClaw founder is heading to OpenAI, Meta is launching competing agents, and the battle for personal AI is officially ON. How the "Internet of Putting iPads on Things" era returning, Anthropic vs Pentagon drama, whether AI intelligence will become worthless like cheap electricity, and why your 'normie' friends will be sending you their vibe-coded apps within 12 months.

Chapters:

3:02 Sam's Ski Injury Saga

5:00 OpenClaw Founder Going To OpenAI & Dave's Foundation Role

8:07 OpenClaw vs. Manus (On-Device vs. Cloud)

11:02 Vibe Coding: Building an App a Day

12:03 Meta vs. OpenAI Rivalry

22:00 The Fundraising Market: Mega Rounds & Narrative Capitalism

27:04 The Big Debate: Bay Area Engineers in 3 Years

41:01 Anthropic vs. The Pentagon

45:01 Intelligence as a Commodity

53:50 Tennis with Madison Keys plug

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We're recording this from Jackson Hole after three days of wheeling and dealing—and yes, canceling meetings for powder. This week we're going deep on OpenClaw. The meetup had 1,500 people show up (Kevin Rose, Marissa Mayer, Ashton Kutcher were some notable guests). And now we're all spending thousands of dollars a month on AI agents we've named after Friends characters while debating whether "developer" is even a job title anymore.We talk about:•⁠ ⁠Why founders are working 24/7 and possibly burning out•⁠ ⁠The decentralized AI future (and why it's not great for OpenAI)•⁠ ⁠Dark software factories where only agents write code•⁠ ⁠Whether everyone's jobs are about to disappear (spoiler: we disagree)•⁠ ⁠The SaaS-pocalypse coming for legacy software•⁠ ⁠Personal AI sovereignty and why Apple's just sitting back laughingAlso: Google's CC assistant is… fine? And we have strong opinions about Heated Rivalry.Chapters:0:00 - Intro: Skiing in Jackson Hole2:30 - Conference Takeaways: Founders Are Working Relentlessly 7:15 - AI Burnout & the 24/7 Work Cycle12:40 - Naming Your AI Agents (Friends Edition)15:20 - How Much Are You Spending on Bots?18:45 - Google CC Assistant Review22:10 - OpenClaw Meetup: 1500 People Show Up28:30 - What Even Is a Developer Anymore?35:50 - OpenAI vs Decentralized AI: The Big Debate42:15 - Personal AI & Data Sovereignty47:20 - Dark Software Factories & Agentic Engineering52:10 - Are All the Jobs Going Away?55:40 - The SaaS Apocalypse58:20 - Pop Culture: Heated Rivalry, Nancy Guthrie Case, StrangersWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/KUA7ue5vB1EConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

This week on More or Less, three-quarters of the squad goes full AI-agent mode with Morin’s ClawCon, Sam’s LinkedIn bots, and Brit’s bot-agent-supervisor. We kick things off with The Information’s breaking story (and potentially trade of the year): Elon’s $1.2T SpaceX + xAI merger. Then we unpack why Jess thinks Jeff Bezos should sell The Washington Post, why media has to own the audience, and how “vibe buys,” cult capitalism, and winner-take-all narratives are still the real moats shaping where money flows. The Dead Internet Theory starts feeling uncomfortably real and we touch on why the future swings back to IRL and community-driven experiences. Plus: the Super Bowl in NorCal, Brit’s Grammys rundown, and a cameo teaser.Chapters:00:53 – Dave and MSG’s ClawCon04:05 – Super Bowl Week in NorCal04:31 – Today’s Agenda: SpaceX + xAI, WaPo Layoffs, AI Fatigue, Super Bowl Week in NorCal05:33 – SpaceX + xAI Merger: Elon’s Narrative Assets and the Deal’s Winners & Losers17:27 – Washington Post Layoffs and Why Bezos Should Sell21:19 – Google Cloud Crushes Earnings22:22 – B2B vs. B2C: Is OpenAI Throwing Spaghetti at the Wall?29:44 – Claude’s “No Ads” Jab at OpenAI32:12 – The Squad’s OpenClaw Experiments41:39 – Dead Internet Theory45:55 – Super Bowl Logistics47:26 – Pop Culture Corner: Grammys Recap49:08 – Disney Names Parks Leader as CEOWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/sbhGfYsFUlsConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Jessica is back from Davos and is recapping her highlights on the pod this week. If you’re a loyal podcast ‘viewer’, you’re in luck because Jess also brought photos from a recent Grace Cathedral sound bath visit before she dives deep into the Clawdbot/Moltbot/agentic moment. Dave is all in on what’s to come in this new age of agentic computers, and in true Sam fashion, he is less impressed by the technology and suggests that if the trend continues, it’s going to be bye bye internet. In the land of the other ‘mature’ AI companies, Jess recaps her Davos AI infra panel’s red-pill take on AI with the killer quote of the week: “the appetite for intelligence is limitless.” But how true is all this demand and how much of it is really narrative? Could the rise in gold and silver prices really be a sign of technology shorting? The crew also reacts to the Minneapolis situation, debating whether it’s a scaling issue at ICE or a political move. Chapters:00:30 — Jess Returns From Davos: No Snow, All SXSW Energy 03:40 — Grace Cathedral Sound Baths06:25 — Moltbot Heat Spike: Are AI Agents Ending the Internet? 17:29 — Moltbot Has no Moat; Founders Should Be Memorable Instead21:26 — Inside the Davos AI Panel: CoreWeave, G42, OpenAI & BlackRock’s Red Pill 29:47 — Minneapolis, ICE, and How the Valley Is Reacting 51:03 — The AI Chatbot Trap for Retail (And Why Everyone Will Fall for It) We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/OZDFAvRq7GcConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

While Jess is off being “Davos-famous,” the squad kicks things off with the classic California vs. New York debate. From there, it’s straight into AI and VC chaos: absurd mega-seed rounds that break portfolio math, why even a great early bet like Anthropic wouldn’t return a seed fund, and a revisit of Sam’s view that there are only two ways to win right now—(1) have a real secret and stay capital-efficient, or (2) own the narrative. Dave flags a new “walkout culture” in AI, where executives jump ship the moment incentives shift. The crew then debates whether AI is actually shaping ideas or just polishing them (a fancy spellcheck?), why the question matters more than the answer, and how personal, computer-driving “Clawdbots” feel inevitable and maybe exactly where Apple should be headed, despite the security concerns. The episode rounds out with The Information's breaking news on Apple's AI pins, shrinking subscription moats and business-model shifts, plus detours into the New York Times’ sauna-bros piece, Sam’s WTF Conference protest merch, Super Bowl plans, and more.Chapters:01:00 – Hello Davos listeners!03:42 – SF vs. New York: where VC actually wins05:41 – The seed valuation "fairway" vs bloated-roads10:07 – Anthropic & OpenAI: good wins, but bad seed returns11:58 – AI founder drama: mercenary teams & narrative fundraising13:53 – Did Claude write its own constitution?15:18 – AI as spellcheck on steroids21:01 – Ralph: autonomous AI agent loop24:03 – What ClawdBot really is; symphony orchestrator26:51 – The Information breaks: Apple’s AI wearable pin; are phones getting tired?29:02 – The rise of “orchestra compute” and hacked APIs31:44 – Subscription models are at risk: Whoop, Eight Sleep, Peloton, Apple41:18 – The New York Times' feature on Sauna Bros44:53 – Sam's WTF Conference merch & Montana shooting plans46:34 – Squad's Super Bowl plansWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/AgwMFLjxQa0Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

AI, AI, and more AI. Do you even live in Silicon Valley if you’re not talking about it every episode? This week, we go deep on how open-source vibe-coding tools are starting to replace the need for traditional SaaS contracts. Dave shows (and tells) how he used the open-source “Claude bot” to reverse-engineer his Mural photo frames and spin up a better web UI in under 30 minutes. Brit test-drives Anthropic’s new Cowork, auto-mapping the entire seed VC market while it runs her browser, and celebrates how much these agents are boosting household productivity. Sam loves the power but calls local agents a massive security backdoor, argues trust will consolidate with Apple and Google, declares that “software is not a business,” and announces we’ve officially entered the fart-app era of AI toys. Jessica flags rising panic among SaaS vendors. Don’t miss Sam’s hot-chick analogy and Brit’s Pop Corner to close it out 😉Chapters:02:05 Vibe coding week: Anthropic's Claude Code & Cowork05:25 Dave's Reverse-engineering Mural frames08:30 AI Agents as a security nightmare12:03 AI’s Napster moment18:43 Software is no longer a defensible business24:00 Sam's investing: Quiet AI businesses or narrative ownership29:27 Offline's Seed alpha in illegible spaces33:06 When will platforms start to block APIs and protect their business?35:27 Shopify Founder and CEO, Tobi's Tweet on modern UI for MRI reading 43:34 GLP-1s & grocery spend45:06 The Information's Wealth tax poll result48:55 We're in the fart-app era of AIWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/2q99bDO-a1EConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

The squad is back for 2026 with updates: Dave’s Montana “Snow Report” (spoiler: none), Brit’s contrarian love letter to CES, and Sam’s new “serious 40-year-old” fashion era. We go rapid-fire through the biggest headlines from the past few weeks we were offline—OpenAI’s health app, China cutting off the H200, and a wave of 2026 liquidity from SpaceX and AI that could mint centi-billionaires, or even trillionaires. Sam unpacks his viral 2026 memo, returning to a familiar theme from the pod: why narratives now matter more than reality, why seed should fund “infinity stories,” and how AI is turning software into consumable media. We also dig into the hot topic of the week—California’s wealth tax and founder flight—plus AI partners, Claude-code mania, real-world clinical AI, America’s hat discourse, and one very specific New Year’s resolution (PS: this is why Sam is wearing a collared shirt). Welcome back to More or Less.

Chapters:01:04 Morin's Weather Report from Montana01:51 CES Corner: The Squad Yucks on Brit's Yum05:43 The Information: Breaking China's H200 ban (US Vs China Tech Trade War)07:22 Quick Recap: Gifting Etiquette for VCs10:00 2026 liquidity wave: Trillionaire era15:35 California's new wealth tax: Its losing out on the liquidity20:05 Sam’s 2026 memo: narratives > reality, seed strategy, and end of the SaaS era31:23 AI companions vs real-world relationships (embodiment over abstraction)48:52 OpenAI Health deep dive56:00 Sam’s new style (and hygiene routine) for 2026We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/DMEDrOnLAGMConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

The pod signs off for the year with its final episode—a sharp, chaotic recap of last year’s predictions and a fresh round of hot takes for 2026. Sam and Dave, unsurprisingly, wing it: Sam calls a single $500B+ IPO (SpaceX), Google up, NVIDIA down, and Meta hitting new highs on AI-powered ads. Jess warns that AI-driven efficiency will fuel layoffs (especially in journalism) and that CapEx hype is outrunning reality. Dave predicts a boom in third places and games-first IP, while Britt bets on an Apple comeback, AI wearables as daily “life summarizers,” a breakout AI-native social app, and a celebrity licensing their AI twin. True to form, the crew goes off script to debate Amazon’s rumored $10B OpenAI deal, AI as the new UI, which model builders survive, regulation looming over prediction markets, “slop” as word of the year, GLP-1s going mainstream, creators eyeing Emmys, and much more. Chapters:

01:50 Morin’s “Nauti or Nice” Holiday Card

04:06 Sam’s 2025 Predictions: Bitcoin, Solana ETFs, Crypto Government Adoption

05:16 Britt’s 2025 Predictions: Amazon Marketplace, Elon’s “TITS,” Swift Engagement

07:52 Dave’s 2025 Predictions: Data Centers, Material Flow Robotics, Crypto Clarity

10:18 Jess’s 2025 Predictions: TikTok U.S., Vertical Stacks, Media Copyright, GLP-1s

11:40 2025 Themes: “Slop,” AI Talent Wars, Government–Tech Ties

12:58 Big Tech Check-In: Apple Loses Ground, Google’s Delta

13:41 Amazon’s $10B OpenAI Bet and Chip Diplomacy

16:16 Britt’s 2026 Predictions: Apple Comeback, Wearable Agents, AI Talent Deals

21:45 Jess’s 2026 Predictions: AI-Driven Layoffs, Liquidity Wave, Prediction Market Regulation

28:57 Dave’s 2026 Predictions: Third Places, Games-First IP, Roblox Scrutiny

36:17 Sam’s 2026 Predictions: One $500B+ IPO, Nvidia Down, Google Up, Meta ATH

44:13 AI Is the New UI: SaaS UX Moats Under Pressure

49:35 Does AI Adult Content Go Mainstream?

50:04 Dave on Google Doppl and AI Try-On Tech

51:28 Britt’s Pop Corner: Taylor Swift Album and Pregnancy Speculation

52:19 Industry Wish List: More DPI, Kids’ Mental Health, Waymos EverywhereWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/ehO3wIio7NwConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

This week’s a big one: the squad kicks it off with Starlink on planes, Zoox vs. Waymo, and YouTube’s skinny bundle before taking the big swing — data centers in space as the emerging SpaceX-IPO narrative. Sam and Dave break down the real entrepreneurship skill: tell the huge story, earn the trust multiple, and consistently deliver “20 cents on the dollar” to keep the flywheel of cash spinning (re: Elon Musk and Sam Altman but thread lightly, you don't want to end up like Elizabeth Holmes or Sam Bankman-Fried). Jess celebrates a win with The Information after getting CNBC to correct their reporting. Then they touch on how the backlash against AI is growing as the 101 billboards fill up with more AI company ads. From Sorkin’s 1929 zeitgeist to smuggling Nvidia chips into China to “IPO everything and pray the American economy survives,” it’s never a dull episode with Brit, Dave, Jess, and Sam. Stay tuned for next week’s 2026 predictions… and drop yours in the comments.Chapters:05:50 Netflix vs Paramount - Who's going to win the deal and is this an Inverse AOL-Time Warner?16:56 Golden Globes nominees and Disney+'s Taylor Swift docuseries17:49 Bundling unbundling YouTube’s skinny bundle and sports21:29 Starlink on planes = fewer redeyes24:55 Zoox vs Waymo28:15 Space GPUs and the data centers in space33:57 The modern entrepreneurship skill: narrative flywheel41:38 Jess’s and The Information's win correcting CNBC's refuted chip story46:04 AI narrative in China vs US47:16 AI backlash: energy prices, water restraints, and kid's mental health52:06 The 101 Billboard Bubble Index57:17 Will the SpaceX, OpenAI, Anduril, or Anthropic IPOs save the economy?58:30 Sorkin’s book predicted the AI bubble?We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/RiKVJD_3ziMConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Bitcoin’s down, so the Lessins turned down the heat and pulled out their winter gear. The More or Less squad jumps from SF’s drone-powered crime-fighting memes (Daniel Lurie’s “no drugs” moment) to how creator-content strategy now drives real deal flow. Jess says 2026 will split the AI tide (we unfortunately did have to touch on AI), with Meta’s missing enterprise story dragging its CapEx dreams, while AWS is suddenly courting founders again. From Apple’s design chief Alan Dye jumping to Meta to questioning whether OpenAI’s “code red” was a decoy, the squad never misses when it comes to the latest thinking in Silicon Valley.

Buy Slow's Modern Etiquette book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0G4HSKSY5

Chapters:

Chapters:01:10 Kudos to SF Mayor, Daniel Lurie!07:14 Doom scrolling on a Garmin watch12:34 Holiday gift guides: AI robots, Duolingo piano, Matic vac mop, etc14:30 The creator-VC playbook 21:27 Instagram RTO 5 days per week leadership reality check22:08 Alan Dye leaves Apple for Meta 26:09 Jess' 2026 prediction: The Big Tech divergence is coming27:46 Meta’s enterprise gap28:46 AWS outreach to Sam: Bedrock Nova and startup credits31:45 Sam Altman's code red memo -- is it a decoy?33:51 Gemini latency vs GPT why speed matters for Brit (Ad opp?)44:39 Is Aaron Levie for or against AI?46:40 Waymo's safety report and Dave's FSD usage51:21 Recapping the Slow holiday party + Offline's next58:28 Slow's Modern Etiquette Book plug (Link to purchase: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0G4HSKSY5)

We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTubeConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Pre-Thanksgiving chatter from the Lessins’ Surf Shack: Jess, Brit, Dave, and Sam pinball from holiday-card automation to trillion-dollar AI geopolitics. Brit trades Minted for Canva+GPT, Jess admits to maintaining a 600-row address spreadsheet, Sam unveils Slow’s Etiquette Book, and Dave still can’t believe we can’t pay in USDC. Don’t worry this year's Thanksgiving edition will live up to its hype, the crew gets into the real stuff too: Google’s TPU push vs. Nvidia’s moat, Meta reportedly buying billions in TPUs, whether Google can shave 10% off Nvidia’s revenue, and more.Chapters:06:45 The San Francisco consensus and Silicon Valley’s real innovation marketing

11:10 Elon Zuck and megaphone-powered distribution

14:30 Why interface distribution will decide AI winner

17:20 Memory isn’t real lock-in switching between ChatGPT and Gemini

21:40 OpenAI’s identity crisis: Apple-style computer vs Meta-style attention

26:30 Google complex vs OpenAI complex how the narrative flipped

29:10 Google TPUs vs Nvidia Meta’s rumored buying spree

33:20 AI infrastructure economics depreciation CapEx margins

36:00 Macro vs micro elections risk cycles

40:10 DOE’s Genesis Mission and where the analogy breaks

44:00 OpenAI's Jony Ive device timeline

48:30 Why distribution still beats novelty

53:15 Final takeaways: marketing distribution and business-model warsWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/7BbWHm3KODwConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Jessica kicks things off with Brit’s five-hour Brit-chella extravaganza—red latex, Light Balance blackout choreo, Ke$ha surprise, and more. The crew checks in on Jessica’s IG detox, TikTok's new "self control badges", ChatGPT launching group chats, Google Gemini taking the lead, and why “just be Google” might be the winning AI brand strategy as AI melts into UX. Sam calls 2026 OpenAI’s make-or-break year and trashes their consumer subscription thesis; Jessica argues ad/commerce is the only viable lane. Markets stay frothy (Nvidia), hyperscaler debt risk rises, the White House preempts 50-state AI chaos, and Coinbase x Kalshi turns prediction markets into a spectator sport. Meme corner closes the loop and a possible Femme-etiquette school spinoff make its debut.

Chapters:

00:37 Intro and Brit-Chella Recap

10:33 Jessica’s Instagram detox check-in and what changed

15:59 TikTok’s anti screen-time badges

17:48 ChatGPT launches group chats; why Meta missed its chance

20:51 Google Gemini takes the lead in the AI race

23:37 OpenAI’s monetization problem; no one buys the consumer story

29:14 Just be Google — higher brand credibility, revenue streams, and distribution

39:33 Breaking: Nvidia earnings are still growing

43:14 White House EO to preempt state AI regulation; why federal matters

48:06 Coinbase and Kalshi prediction markets, culture, and compliance

53:12 Meme Corner: RIP 6–7, hello 41

56:03 Make SF Dress Up Again: Femme-Etiquette School

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Connect with us here:

1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin

2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin

3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin

4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

The squad is complete again! We get into AI wearables: rings, necklaces, even earrings, after Dave hints his stealth ring startup is almost ready. Waymo quietly rolls out SF–San Jose service (still no freeways), while private-jet owners email senators about the shutdown. The squad goes over Andy Rubin’s humanoid robotics launch, Sam’s backwards Panopticon sign, Apple’s Issey Miyake iPhone “sock/pocket,” and that Slow’s etiquette school is now getting international interest. We wrap with Janitor AI’s romance boom, Sam building an AI kids-podcast pipeline with ElevenLabs, Brit wanting McConaughey to voice romance, Jess taking an Instagram detox, and more.

Chapters:

01:18 AI in interior design and AI slop; Why AI commerce still feels broken

04:59 Apple week iPhone Air vs Pro

08:49 Wearable AI flood Ray-Bans, rings, and other wearables

15:32 Jess deletes Instagram and maybe email

21:05 Multitasking vs focus

23:32 Andy Rubin’s new robotics company

27:15 SORON reveal and home deterrence roadmap

29:15 Military research to practical deterrent systems

30:29 Panopticon conference room and GDPR simplification

32:29 Waymo expansion and route quirks

35:35 Apple Issey Miyake iPhone pocket sock

38:40 Slow's Etiquette Finishing school goes global

44:50 The Lessin Family AI generated kids podcast

49:06 BBC scandal media bias and blowback

54:12 Lawfare the financialization of lawsuits

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2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin

3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin

4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

It’s Etiquette Finishing School Day at Slow Ventures, Sam dials in from the Four Seasons in a Brioni suit to recap Slow’s first-ever Etiquette School—covering caviar bumps, sommelier tips, and the “low heart rate” approach to leadership. The crew argue that etiquette now matters in tech because trust is scarce and “PMF-only” is an outdated YC-era story. Jess also unpacks details from Apple’s Gemini deal, Sequoia’s leadership shuffle, Anthropic’s latest numbers, and crypto’s meme-driven chaos. Watch till the end for free No Kings and Queens of Corbet protest tees from Sam.

Chapters:

02:33 Etiquette Day at Slow — Sam’s recap from the Four Seasons

07:00 Why etiquette matters for founders in 2025

13:20 Apple x Google: Gemini to power Siri

17:24 Apple’s AI strategy: Restricting Spend on AI

20:04 LLMs vs search the new user behavior shift

27:40 Sequoia’s leadership handoff

36:44 Meme coin corner Jelly’s 400M rise and community-led products

47:55 Waymo swarms El Camino AI meets the real world

50:30 Sam's "No Kings and Queens" merch

We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/zv4VdtKpQQkConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

With Jess running The Information's massive WTF conference and Sam off-grid on a mountain, Brit and Dave hold down the fort with Stuart Landesberg, CEO of Seneca, a Slow- and Offline-backed startup building autonomous firefighting drones. Between deep tech inside jokes, Stuart coins pro-America tech and breaks down how Seneca’s five-drone strike teams deploy 500 lbs of foam across 30 square miles in under ten minutes—even at night. Wildfires now drain over a trillion dollars a year from the U.S. economy, and Seneca’s model of detect early, respond fast, outperforms retrofitting homes or relying on pilots. With demand rising from cities, utilities, and insurers protecting $5T in assets, Stuart’s focused on building long-term enterprise value, not chasing the AI hype cycle.

Join the Seneca team: https://seneca.com/careers/

Chapters:03:28 Stuart’s path to Seneca and the wildfire problem10:36 The true economic cost of wildfires12:10 Prevention vs. suppression; prescribed burns and costs16:19 Exponential fire growth; strike teams and early knockdowns19:46 Autonomy + sensors; choosing actions in real time20:45 Five drones, 30 square miles, sub-10-minute response22:20 Night ops: why autonomy wins when pilots can’t fly25:42 Regulators, HOAs, utilities: who’s pulling adoption forward27:40 Capital, AI hype, and choosing long-term partners31:32 Founder advice; unexpected demand from private stakeholders39:38 Culture: Stoicism, Amor Fati, learning from crashes

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Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

The gang is back with a spicy opener: Brit calls out Dave for dismissing her “AI-assisted” doc as work slop, while Sam argues lowbrow culture now imitates machines and highbrow culture resists them. We break down OpenAI’s early, hallucination-prone Atlas browser and debate whether it’s a real agent platform, just memory capture, or total $$$ burn. Sora hype is cooling as TPUs rise—with Jessica noting how The Information's TPU scoop even nudged NVIDIA to move faster. OpenAI’s compute could approach ~$45B/year at ~3 GW, forcing new financing models and tough research vs GTM trade-offs—Sam calls it Pascal’s Wager for Big Tech. We close on AWS outages, crypto leverage swings, and why “swag is dead,” replaced by bespoke gifting as the new status move. Just another week of your favorite Technology podcast with the Morins and Lessins.Chapters:00:38 — Gang is back: notes on last episode and Yasso bars01:20 — Revisiting last week's “AI Work Slop”: Brit vs. Dave 03:49 — Culture vs. LLMs: highbrow resists, lowbrow imitates07:16 — Bot etiquette: Bot joining Zoom calls and writing thank you letters12:16 — OpenAI Atlas: early tests, hallucinations & agency potential17:29 — Sora hype cools: the consumer AI novelty cycle19:47 — The TPU plot twist: NVIDIA gets pushed to move faster22:40 — $45B compute future: Pascal’s Wager for Big Tech29:05 — AWS outages: one-offs vs systemic risk33:29 — The X Game: Mr.Beast, “manual slop,” and the screenshot era43:38 — Swag is dead: bespoke gifting = new status flex53:43 — Sports, socials & 2026 predictionsWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/VDYdIoHe4XAConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Jessica and Dave dive into the messy intersection of AI, culture, and the next wave of consumer tech. From the rise of “AI slop” to whether founders should build apps just for themselves, they debate what survives the model wars and what gets eaten alive. Along the way: 2025 Silicon Valley weirdness, $1B AI comp with no products, GLP-1 memes, kids treating Fortnite like the new social network, and California’s crackdown on youth tech. It’s part therapy session, part future forecast—the only technology podcast that you should listen to before you head into the weekend.

Chapters:

00:40 Intro: The first “Jave” episode

01:17 The Grove lore: Ground zero of social networks

03:19 What’s actually working in consumer AI?

12:26 The Information’s mobile app and engagement lift

14:51 Summarization as the killer consumer use case

16:17 The “AI slop” problem in real work product

19:35 2025 Silicon Valley culture: dead internet, Sora slop, $1B comp

21:08 Refounding era (Handshake) and trendwatching

23:01 Startup to watch: BitRig and iPhone apps that build apps25:06 Why personalized apps

32:54 OpenAI Dev Day paranoia: Who gets eaten?

44:32 Parenting choices: Roblox/YouTube vs curated apps

58:36 Algorithmic novelty vs repetition comfort

01:02:47 OpenAI recalibrates adult content

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