jD is joined by Mike Hogan from the 3 songs podcast w/ Bob Nastanovich. Learn about the Meeting Malkmus origin story while Mike shares his Pavement origin story and dissects song seventeen on the countdown.
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[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50.
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[0:02] So today we're talking all about song number 18 from the masterpiece Wowie Zowie. It's the absolutely gorgeous father to a sister of thought. Vish, what are your initial thoughts about this song? Well, you know, I was so happy that we landed on this as a song to talk about because I do love Wowie Zowie. I have a sense memory of picking it up when it came out i think the day it came out this is interesting it's a really fascinating song because in some ways it's super accessible uh musically uh it leans with the pedal steel and some of the other moves it leans towards kind of country music um i will say uh as i was pondering it i i mean i i know we are in a vacuum here of people who love pavement right and who love Stephen Malcomus, but as I was listening to this in preparation for our chat, I'm like, Malcomus is like an underrated everything.
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[1:04] Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.
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[1:12] Hey, it's J.D. here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band, Pavement. Week over week, we're going to countdown the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots. I then tabulated the results using an abacus and a four-slice toaster I had fashioned into a time machine. Now I pull the blinds of the time curtain. Yesterday is totally getting a do-over. How will your favorite song fare in the rankings? You'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week I'm joined by Pavement superfan Mike fucking Hogan. How the hell are you, Mike? I'm doing good, JD. JD uh it's nice to talk to you yeah it's nice to talk to you too I've listened to you you know uh over the years with Bob on the on the pod and uh we've been lonesome for you yeah I was uh you know in advance of this I was like god when did we start that podcast and I looked the first episode was August of 2017 um and we did 177 episodes the last one being December of of, uh, 2022. And I think that was the only one we did that year too. I don't know. I haven't, I haven't checked, but yeah, we were pretty, we were pretty active, uh, for a few years with some breaks in between. Um, but, uh, but yeah, um, it was fun.
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[2:39] So will the podcast be dusted off at some point? Will we get the Pavement-esque reunion tour? That's kind of the open question. I wouldn't say no. We don't have any immediate plans. The last time I talked to Bob about it was probably about, I don't know, four or five months ago. And he said maybe after the new year. You know, I think we we really paused things because, you know, obviously Pavement was rehearsing and then touring and things were hectic. We actually had this I had this idea to do a different like tour diary podcast in every city. Yeah.
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[3:21] Like, you know, of course, the podcast that we did was very synchronous where we would talk back and forth. We would play songs but i was i had this idea where he would asynchronously record like five or ten minutes about like i'm in kansas city and here's my experience with kansas city and then we he'd pick a song that was kansas city based and i'd pick you know but it never it never ended up working out it would have been fun maybe damn that would have been great yeah maybe on the next reunion tour maybe the next reunion tour but yeah i think you know i mean between that and you know he's had some life changes i've had some life changes we kind of just were like let's take a pause let's um maybe start fresh you know after 177 episodes it's like how many different bands can you talk about that you haven't talked about in the first 176 so uh um you know i think if we came back we would probably you know might keep the same format but allow ourselves the opportunity to revisit and almost treat it as a fresh start. Hmm. That's interesting. You heard it here first, folks. No promises, you know, but no promises either way, really. Right. That's cool. It's, you know, you're saying there's a chance.
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[4:41] Cool. Well, let's get right into it. Let's talk about your pavement origin story. story? Boy, um, I think I first heard of pavement. Um, I wasn't early enough to get the first seven inch. Um, but I think maybe the first drag city seven inch, um, it was probably the first time I'd heard of them. I don't know if I even bought it at the time I was in that era. I was in college. I was at very active in the college radio station at Santa Clara University KSU. And I was a music director for a little while. And there, you know, obviously, Pavement was getting a bit of buzz. And I remember them just being this band that had put out a few singles. They were getting written up in zines. You know, there wasn't social media. So there wasn't any of that buzz at that time. And it was it was like unless you had someone that had a copy you you know It was almost impossible to even find in stores, So they had this just kind of air about them of like and and there were no photos of them There weren't even their names. It was just SM and spiral stairs, and it was just this like very.
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[6:02] Mysterious like who the hell are these guys and then little bits would come out where it was like Like, oh, you know, one of them worked at the Whitney as a as a as a guide. And they recorded in this in the studio in Stockton. And, you know, the the the drummer is the guy that runs the studio. He's just this old crazy dude. You know, it was just like little bits of information would kind of come out. And I think I think really what kind of hooked me was probably the 10 inch perfect sound forever. And then by the time Slandered and Enchanted came out, it was like I was full on waiting for it. And I think the first time I saw them, the only time I saw them until the reunion tour a couple years ago, was in San Francisco at the Kennel Club a week before Slandered and Enchanted came out.
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[6:56] Was released. And shit. Yes, because I worked at the radio station, we had an advanced copy. So I was I was like, vigorously listening to the record. And so totally prepared for the show. And it's funny, because I think it was written up in one of the papers, one of the San Francisco papers, because the buzz was already even big. Even though Matador was still a pretty small label at the time. It was like this local band, local ish band is kind of getting uh some attention and uh it was funny the show was sold out and gary was out front like shaking people's hands as they walked into the show like could not believe that everybody was there to see him you know he'd been trying for years and years to hit it big in the music industry and couldn't believe that these two weird college kids that came into his studio was like his venue for We're actually getting some level of success. So it was kind of cool.
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[7:59] Oh, very cool. Yeah. How was that show? It was, it was amazing. It was a little, um, ramshackle as some of their shows back then could have been. Um, but I just remember, you know, because I was so excited for it. Um, I just remember being like, odd, like, wow, this is great. You know? And then I never got a chance to see them again until they did the reunion tour. Uh, it was probably 30, a little over 30 years between my first and second pavement show that's hey you know what when you see them before slant it drops you're doing pretty good right like i like i think that's phenomenal i think the article in the paper said it would be like their 20th show that they played or something like that so it was certainly one of you know because before then they were just a recording band and you know they didn't it was you know all of the i think the earlier records were just the two of them plus gary uh and so they they sort of had to figure out like how are we as a band when we're playing out live and uh you know it was early enough that i think that i was still seeing some of that evolution of what pavement would become oh that is so fucking cool i you You know, I didn't get on board until very late, very late. So they were already broken up. Like, yeah.
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[9:23] So, yeah, I got on board very late. And it's just listening to all this kind of talk, which I've heard, you know, a lot. I've done a lot of these at this point, these interviews and listening to people's pavement origin stories. Uh, you know, there's a lot of people who came late, but the people who came early have really fantastic stories. Like, you know, the fact that, uh, there were a mystery, you know, and that's something when I interviewed spiral, he said they really, that was something that was really important to them. And in fact, he was disappointed when they sort of dropped the. Like he wished they could have kept going with the – I don't know how they would have done that. Played in lucha masks or something? I don't know. Daft Punk did it for how many years, right? Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Or the residents. I mean it had been done before. But yeah, that was certainly part of the mystique for me. And seeing them, like, wow, they're real people when I saw them live. It was like – this is the, you know, yeah, the reveal of the curtain.
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[10:31] But yeah, and that was why when slanted, I mean, perfect, perfect sound forever, too. But especially when slanted dropped, it was like felt very fresh, felt familiar, but totally different at the same time. And that's why in some ways, I think my experience of pavement is just naturally different from somebody that experienced them later when they already had this full body of work. And you could see you could see that progression because there was just this question of where were they going and what would they do next and um i can imagine the ep that came after was like oh my god these four songs are just amazing incredible like like and and it was uh.
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[11:19] Yeah it was interesting it was um a very exciting time and they were like a very important band for me in that, in that period of my life. I bet. So what, um, is your go-to record at this point? Do you have one or, I mean, I know that's a tough question because it probably changes week, week over week, but you know, just think about right now, what would you, if, if we get off the phone here and you want to just reminisce about some pavement, what are you going to throw? It's hard because, you know, I think as somebody who had that level of experience about like this mystique early on and the seven inches were and, you know, the early albums were really just so ingrained in my memory. Like, I almost don't need I listened to Slandered and Enchanted before our talk today. And it was probably the first time in a couple years that I'd listened to it. But it was like, I knew every one of those songs. So in intimately, I knew every note, every lyric, every, you know, Baba Baba, you know, like every little like, like, part of the songs in a way that the later albums.
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[12:38] I'm not as intimately familiar with. So when I listen to a later record, it's almost like hearing it fresh. And I can't distance myself from my experience of like Perfect Sound Forever back when it came out, or Slanded went back when it came out. But that said, I think if I were to just be like, I wanna put on a record, um well i mean watery domestic is probably my favorite piece of work that they did but it's only four songs so it's wrong but it's so fast yeah it just is over so quickly and i think i only had it on cd i only recently bought the the vinyl of it and i didn't realize that the little like you know that little like transitional piece i didn't realize it was at the end of a song i thought it was the intro of a song because i always just listened to the cd ah and it just went i never paid enough attention to it because i didn't listen to it on shuffle or anything um and so it was almost revelatory when i got it on vinyl i was like this is like the way it's supposed to be like and then i flipped the side over um so that must have been brain busting It was kind of weird. I thought that was the intro to the song, but it was really the outro.
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[14:04] Well, speaking of Pavement songs, should we get into the song that you're going to cover? Yeah, let's do it. All right. We'll be right back after listening to song number 17.
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[14:19] Hey, this is Bob Nestanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening. And now on with a countdown.
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[14:28] 17.
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[16:10] There you have it. Song number 17 is Zurich is Stained from the debut long play Slanted and Enchanted. Mike, is this song in fact slanted and or enchanted? Discuss. Yes, indeed. I love this song. This song, it really is. And it's sort of an oasis. I love where it appears on the record. it's coming straight out of the chaos of uh conduit for sale and right before the chaos of chelsea's little wrists and you get this like really light breezy but fast song i mean it's not a ballad it's not like here it is it is this breezy light almost feels like it would be.
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[17:03] At home on the velvet underground's third record you know there's this mood to it that feels, in some ways different from earlier in the record and even what comes a little later where there's a lot of like fuzz and noise it's just this light little break um that's almost this perfect little slice of i don't even know how long it is but i'm guessing it's less than two minutes it's It's just, uh, yeah, it's, it's in and out. Yeah. It's in and out. And, and the whole time Malchmus, I don't think really pauses the vocals for more than a second or two. It's just beautiful little instrumentation with his vocals kind of just strung throughout it all. Yeah. I'm singing it in my head right now. It's right. It's, it's, uh.
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[17:59] I mean, you know, and it's like the chorus keeps coming back and then he ends it with the, you know, like just it is a perfect little song. It's just a perfect slice of, and if I were to play somebody that had never heard Pavement, if I would play them, what is from a songwriting perspective, what is a quintessential Pavement song? You know, there are probably a few others that might come to mind, but this is like one of those like sleeper cuts. It's just such a perfect little song that doesn't get the buzz of like the Summer Babes or, you know, some of the more hit songs. I just I love it, though. yeah it's a it's a it's a really great song it's very different from the rest of the record for for sure it like maybe even it's like more at home on crooked rain crooked rain like you know like just sonically but uh but you're right where it hits in the record is is just is just right and And it's a refreshing little wafer, you know, before the next meal. Yes. Or the next course.
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[19:22] Yeah. I think because of where it hits in the record, it feels mellower, you know? Feels in contrast to some of the other songs that come before and after it. What did you say is right before it? Conduit? Conduit, yeah. Okay, yeah. So it comes out of that frantic chaos into this breezy little, there's like the twang guitar, there's no fuzz, it's just this kind of light, catchy little, very short song, song, but that feels fully formed. It's not one of those songs that feels too short. You know, it just is like an idea song. Like, like there's a lot of those on Wowie, for example. Right. Yeah. Yes. Right. Or, you know, I mean, I can even think of like Emmett Rhodes lullaby. I don't know if you know that song. It's, it's, it was used. I first heard of it in, um, I think Royal Tenenbaums, one of those Wes Anderson movies, but, um, it's a beautiful little song and it's It's only a minute long, and it just feels too short. Zyrka's Dane does not like that. It just feels fully formed, even though it's only a minute in, I don't know, 50 or something. Yeah.
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[20:41] What was I going to ask you? I was going to ask you if you've got a line on what it's potentially about. And if not, that's cool. I don't know. No, I mean, I miss Malcolm. This is hard. I, I kind of try not to read in too much to the lyrics because I also don't really trust the lyrics. Um, if you know what I mean, like if the lyric sheet, um, is often or not, I wouldn't say often, sometimes the lyric sheet, Like I'm looking at the lyric sheet right now that is included in the vinyl of Slanted and Enchanted. And the one that stands out is not necessarily Zerka Stain, but on Loretta's scars, you know, the, the line from now on, I can see the sun is always what I knew it to be. But the lyric sheet says from now on, I can see the slums. And so. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I sort of, especially with Mouthmasters lyrics, I try not to read too much into it. It's just this like, kind of catchy thing.
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[22:06] You know, like a jumble of words that make sense within the music of the song. I call it word salad. Yeah. I call it word salad. You get a tasty morsel in every forkful. You know, there's a little bit of everything. There's imagery. There's, you know, these slant rhymes sometimes. Really cool phrases. Memorable phrases. Yes. I almost feel like, you know, I can't sing it strong enough is a great line. I don't know what it's about. Right. And I don't even know if it's about, I mean, the song is Zurich is Stained. I don't even think it's about Zurich. There's no other sort of mention of it. Yeah, I mean, right. Like, it's okay. It's not your fault. Cool. cool.
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[22:57] Whose fault is it? Do we even care? I don't know. I just try not to. I try not to read too much into it. And I think one of the one of the things that I noticed and what I've always kind of tried to avoid when I would talk music, you know, the songs when when Bob and I did three songs, but is I would, I would try and talk about the music and not try to analyze the lyrics so much, unless there was something that really like, like stood out and grabbed me and resonated with me. Um, but yeah, I think, I think Malchmus is especially at this phrase, you know, phase of his career. I felt like each line was its kind of own self-contained mini story and often didn't even like match or connect or follow the line that came after it um so to your question what's the song about i have no idea that's cool well i'll pivot completely then and we'll go back to three songs for a minute how the fuck you know did you and bob connect yeah this is this is kind of.
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[24:09] Obviously, I was a fan for a while, for a long time. And I'm thinking back in 2013, I moved to New York City. And I started working at a horse racing company. Okay. And actually, it probably was 2014 that I moved there in 2013. Probably a year later, I got the job at the horse racing company. And as I'm sure you know, Bob has always been interested in horse racing. And what he was, I was based in New York, he was based in Iowa. But he was the local representative for the Iowa racetrack for the company that I worked for. And so when I get there and I see, you know, Bob Nastanovich, I'm like, hey, man, what's up? And we started working together for work. And then I was at some point I was like, you know, I'm familiar with your band, Bandza, you know, because I was also certainly familiar with the Silver Jews as well. So good. And so we just became friends. I worked there. I think Bob got laid off because horse racing is not really a growth industry. So Bob got laid off. And then a year or two later, I got laid off.
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[25:37] But we were always friendly friends. I'd consider us friends. We became friends, even though we lived a couple thousand miles away from each other. Yeah um and after i got laid off in 2017 i was like hey i got some time now you want you want you want to do a music podcast um and he was like yeah sure and so we threw around ideas of like what it would be about and how we would approach it what we would call it all of that and he suggested three songs and we just kind of bandied back and forth uh you know hey this is this is is sort of how i want to do it i just want it to be like two friends talking music and sharing music that we like with each other kind of like the way it was back when pavement started when you just couldn't find things online there was no online you just had to hear about it because somebody you knew was into it and be like oh you got to check this out you'll love it so that was sort of the spirit of it we started i think our first episode i know our first episode i didn't have a mixer it sounds like shit you couldn't really hear bob bob couldn't hear the songs um but i just left it up anyway because they were good songs and it just it was uh a good a good chat um and then by episode two i got i bought a mixer and a mic and uh we're we're off.
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[27:00] Game changed. Game changed. And we, yeah, we were friends for probably two and a half years before we did the podcast. Yeah. And then we did the podcast for probably another two and a half years before we met in person. So I knew Bob and was friends with Bob for five years before we'd ever. And you guys did an episode together in person, right? We did one episode in person. Yeah. Okay. I remember listening to that one. Yeah. I mean, I've listened to a bunch, but I specifically remember that one. Yeah. It was sort of weird because we're doing this with video. I can see you, so you can see me. I can see when you're ready to talk. We didn't do any of that. Bob didn't want to be on camera. He felt uncomfortable. He's out on his back porch. He's just running around. You'd hear the dog in the background. So I didn't know when he was done talking, and we would sometimes talk over each other. So doing the one in person when we could actually see each other's cues was a little strange, to be honest. Because we had done, I don't know, at that point, two and a half years worth, probably close to 100 episodes. That's what I was going to say. I feel like it was in the 90s, that episode. But I might be wrong. Yeah. That was probably after. Because we did the 100th episode.
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[28:21] Yeah, we did the 100th episode, which was the David Berman Silver Jews focus one. Which is still our most listened to episode. That was the episode 100. And I know we recorded it a few months before we met in person. So, yeah, we probably did 110 before we'd ever met in person. And the reason we met, the way we met, was Bob came to Portland in January of 2020 because there was a tribute show to David and to Silver Juice. And so Bob, so we, you know, I think there were a number of people that played, including.
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[29:02] Uh, um, the woman, Rebecca from the Spananes, um, played a set. Um, there were a few others that played, but the headliner was, uh, just a duo of Bob and Steven playing, playing silver juice stuff, which, and you can find it, you can find the recording on, um, on YouTube and famously one of it's great. It's actually worth seeking out because, you know, it was, it was cool to see. Um but someone in the comments was like this sounds like shit and then bob replied and he's like sorry man i can give you your five bucks back or whatever and and then the guy was like oh i'm really sorry i didn't mean to you know it's he's like that is spectacular yeah so it's it's almost it's worth watching for sure but it's almost worth seeking out to to find that little nugget of, of exchange, um, in, in the, in the YouTube comments section. But, um, but yeah, that was the first time we met. Did you parlay that meeting into, uh, an opportunity to meet with SM? I did. Yes. So this is, this is sort of my meeting mouth story. Although I actually met him in the nineties briefly at Satyricon when, um, the Geraldine Fibbers were playing. He.
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[30:23] He lived in Portland at that point, and I think I was still down in Eugene, but I was and have been good friends with Nels Klein for years and years and years, put out some of his records back in the 90s. And then he got into the Geraldine Fibbers and was playing guitar with them. They played a show at Satyricon and I was hanging out with Nels and Stephen came to the show. And so I met him briefly then in the 90s. um but then yeah flash forward 20 plus years january 2020 so that the the day before the show.
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[30:57] That they played uh with a tribute to to david is the day that bob and i hung out we recorded the podcast that day we went and had lunch we had dinner i just hung we just hung out together all day. And then, um, I was going to head home and he's like, ah, just crash, crash in Stephen's basement. There's, there's two couches there. I I'm on one, you can crash on the other. And I was like, yeah, okay, no problem. And so, um, we got back there, I don't know, around midnight, everybody was asleep. We'd go down to the basement and, you know, and then I get up around eight or so to go to leave and um the basement stairs were right at the top uh or the top of the stairs was right at the kitchen and so um i went there was a bathroom in the basement i went and used the bathroom and i was about like putting my shoes on and about to leave and steven's wife jessica comes to the top of the stairs and is like bob's bob and i'm standing there, and I just say like I didn't know what to say of course I'm like uh, Bob's friend and she's like oh Bob had a sleepover and I was like uh yeah hi I'm Mike so um.
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[32:17] So then, and, and so that was sort of a strange little, and then I got, you know, got my shoes and my jacket and I'm like going up the stairs and what at the top of the stairs, it's like you see the full kitchen and, you know, Jessica and Steve's daughters were in the kitchen having breakfast. And I'm like, um, nice to meet you. Thanks for letting me crash here. Even though you didn't know I was crashing here. here um uh you know like hey i'm mike and just like really sheepishly like trying to leave and the back door is right kind of at you go to the top of the stairs and to the right is the kitchen and straight ahead is the the side door um that goes to their their driveway and i'm like trying to open the side door and jessica's like it kind of sticks a little bit do you want me to help and And I'm like, oh, I think I got it. And so I'm like fiddling with the doorknob for like 10 seconds, which felt like two minutes. And then I finally got it opened and it was like, all right, thanks. See you later.
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[33:25] And then later that day, you know, Bob said, come on over. We'll hang out. And so I came over later that day and then met them in earnest. And they were very sweet. She was very sweet. You know, like, I'm really sorry. And I was here and she's like, don't worry about it. And then Steven was there. And he was like, they were just kind of.
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[33:43] Prepping for the show later that evening and um he was very nice he actually gave me he just finished reading lou reed's a biography on lou reed he's like i'm looking for on it and i was like yeah sure so i've got steve's steven's copy of uh the lou reed biography up in my my bedroom.
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[34:01] Somewhere that's spectacular i think that's really cool yeah yeah borrowing books from steven malcolm any other uh chances that you met him or um yeah i mean i've met him briefly a few other times you know bob um would come to town when pavement was rehearsing i think they rehearsed for about almost a month before they did their their first reunion tour in 2022 22 um yeah bob bob stayed here for probably maybe not quite a month maybe three or four weeks two or three weeks and um you know i would not every day but regularly after they were done i would you know hang out with bob a little bit and we'd get some dinner or whatever and one night there was some band playing and um steven and jessica went and we tagged along and so i've met him a number of times we're i would say we're friendly but we're not friends i don't have his number he doesn't have mine you know if if i were to run into him around town which um happens now and then i'd probably feel too shy to say hi but um if i did i think he would know who i was and be okay with it that's that's.
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[35:19] Pretty neat though i would say yeah you know i mean this is one of the things about portland it's like a it's a it's kind of a small town it's a big big enough city but it's also kind of a small town yeah well i want to share something with you because it's kind of funny uh you know it's in the lore of meeting malchmus i reached out to bob when i first conceived of this podcast in the fall of uh 2018 and asked him if he wanted to co-host meeting malchmus and this is the you know this is the premise and blah blah blah and uh i didn't have it all nailed down at that point um but i gave him the i gave him the highlights and he's He's like, he responded back and he's like, sounds fun, but I'm already doing a podcast. And I was like, tell me what it's called. And that's how I found out about your podcast.
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[36:11] But that's also how Bob ended up not on Needy Malcomus, if he would have done it, if he would have done it. Well, so I apologize because I feel like I'm the reason why he said no. Although I would have to check. There were times, and I think that the fall of 2018 was one of those times. There were times, and if you look back through our episodes, you'll see big gaps, and it's often.
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[36:37] Associated with life events. And my, my daughter was born in July of 2018. And I think right after that, we actually did probably a six month pause. Cause I was like, I don't, I'm working. And, uh, you know, I mean, I took a little time off, you know, I'm not sleeping yet. Like, uh, as priorities go, I don't know if I'll have time to talk to you for a little bit. So you, even though Bob, I mean, and I appreciate Bob being loyal to me. It was probably during a pause, and he probably could have said, hey, I've got the time right now. I am doing a podcast, but we're not doing it right away. That's funny. Yeah. So do you have anything you want to plug other than three songs at this point? What's the episode that people should grab of three songs aside from the Berman episode? Episode like what would you say is is a standout episode that gives you a real sense of what the show is well okay so those are almost two questions because.
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[37:41] The standout episode of what the show is this the premise of the show was bob would bring three songs to play to me that he thought i maybe didn't know uh and might like and i would do the same for him um and so those some of those early episodes where we were still finding our footing were a lot of the songs where it was like, Oh my God, I fucking love this song so much. Like the X is state of shock. Um, you know, like some, some of these go between songs or some of these like old blue songs that, that just like really resonated with me in a strong way. I was like, I, you know, I don't know if you know this, but like, I want to play it for you and just get your reaction. Um, so, you know, I don't know. I, don't have the list in front of me and my screen saver went to sleep. So I, you know, I'm not even going to log in to figure out what some of those early episodes were. Um, but, uh, you know, I, what I, what I also tried to do, and it was never a spoken thing between Bob and I, but I, I was inherently conscious of the fact we were two middle-aged white dudes.
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[38:54] Talking music and i wanted to make sure we weren't just talking about white dudes no it is very if you haven't listened to it listen to it but there are there are like i'm just going i'm making this up but like throat singers and or did you have a throat singer uh i don't know if we went quite that wild but we would do yeah it's everywhere though it's like you guys you guys covered the spectrum yes music all kinds of genres all kinds of countries we try we tried to go all around the world you know and we tried to also be very inclusive of all genders and you know because again it's just two white dudes talking we didn't want it to be like very focused on on like western western music you know that said we didn't want to make it so obscure that people would be like, there's not anything here for me, you know, like, we would try to try to walk that line where it would still be fun and worthwhile. And, you know, I think if nothing else, it was just, I hope that people came because they liked Bob, and they liked me, and they felt like they were listening in to friends.
Track 3:
[40:08] And they felt like they were one of of our friends that were experiencing this music and experiencing this conversation at the same time. Um, I hope it was more that and not like, Oh, I'm going to list, listen because today they're talking about, you know, Sebado or whatever. I'm going to listen because today they're talking about some band I know, and I want to hear what they say.
Track 3:
[40:30] I, I, I was, I hope we built enough of an audience that liked us and trusted us. So that's it. It's the trust piece. It's like you guys were sort of a modern day equivalent of like the record shop dude, you know, that trusted guy that, you know, Gary Gal.
Track 3:
[40:51] It's like, hey, I saw you buying these two records. Yeah. You're probably going to totally dig this. Yes. Yes. Tastemakers. I hope, I hope the unjudgmental record shop dude that wasn't like, oh, I can't believe you bought this.
Track 3:
[41:06] No, I don't mean that. You know some of those types, right? Yeah. We wanted it to be, you know, I also didn't want it to be a situation where I was, you know, ripping on someone's art. Or if I didn't like it, I would just be like, oh, it's maybe not my thing. But most of the time, everything Bob played for me, I was into or found some sort of way to resonate with.
Track 3:
[41:32] But aside from that, I mean, I'm not doing any podcasts. I don't have anything to plug. I mean, I think those that have listened to the show know that Bob runs a small record label. And back in the 90s, I ran a small record label called Little Brother Records. Records um you know uh i've got a few of the old back stock and maybe i'll send me your address i'll send you a little package of some of the old records i put out um oh wow cool yeah um you know and it's uh so but i wouldn't say i have that to plug it's just part of my it's part of my origin story yeah absolutely well i really want to thank you for taking this time with me today it's been a blast talking to you dude yeah appreciate it thanks for thinking of me thanks for including me no you're you're near top of the list when i started thinking of like people that i solicited to like on my twitter and stuff like that uh i i asked basically anybody and everybody but then i also had like the celebrity wing you know and uh you appeared on that list so i i company you're in.
Track 3:
[42:42] I don't know if I would even come close to listing me as a celebrity, but I appreciate the thought. In the podcast, in the indie rock podcast world, I would see you. If you want to say our top episode, which is the Berman one, that got maybe 12,000 listens, if that makes me a celebrity. I mean, you know. If you had 12,000 people in your living room listening to you talk, that would be a pretty fucking big deal. That's true. I don't know if I'd have enough food for them.
Track 3:
[43:14] I had a friend tell me that early on in podcasting. They were, you know, they were like, because I was like, I don't know. I don't want to put myself out there and see the numbers. And they were like, if you have 12 people that listen, like, that's pretty cool. Well, I think more than that, but the sense that you, that I get is that you approach it the way that Bob and I approached it. And, um, you know, I had the advantage of kind of tagging along to a, a, a celebrity.
Track 3:
[43:43] And so Bob's name helped bring in listeners, but we, we didn't, we didn't do any promotion other than maybe, you know, little like, like Twitter promotion. We didn't, we didn't solicit any, um, sponsors or anything like that. We didn't ever want to try and find a way to monetize it because if we were doing that, it wouldn't be what I wanted. Yeah. And it wouldn't be fun. It wouldn't be, it would be like work, you know, and I wanted it to be my release for like, here's an opportunity to talk to my friend about music. Um, and maybe, you know, maybe we will find an audience you know if you're if you're authentic and you're doing something for the right reasons often the audience finds you it may take a little while um but that's i think that's also about the the way i look at a lot of the music that i like you know bands like sonic youth weren't you know or or the x is another huge band that i just have loved for their whole career they're not worried about is it going to sell or whatever and they just they find the audience eventually.
Track 3:
[44:52] Yeah i would say i would say authenticity is a is a reasonable place to start from, yeah that's the best i can do yeah yeah hey again thanks so much and uh wash your goddamn hands.
Track 1:
[45:11] Thanks for listening to Meeting Malcomus, a pavement podcast where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you. If you've got questions or concerns, please shoot me an email. JD at Meeting Malcomus dot com.
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