Meeting Malkmus - a Pavement podcast – Détails, épisodes et analyse

jD is joined by Mike Hogan from the 3 songs podcast w/ Bob Nastanovich. Learn about the Meeting Malkmus origin story while Mike shares his Pavement origin story and dissects song seventeen on the countdown.

Transcript:

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[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50.

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[0:02] So today we're talking all about song number 18 from the masterpiece Wowie Zowie. It's the absolutely gorgeous father to a sister of thought. Vish, what are your initial thoughts about this song? Well, you know, I was so happy that we landed on this as a song to talk about because I do love Wowie Zowie. I have a sense memory of picking it up when it came out i think the day it came out this is interesting it's a really fascinating song because in some ways it's super accessible uh musically uh it leans with the pedal steel and some of the other moves it leans towards kind of country music um i will say uh as i was pondering it i i mean i i know we are in a vacuum here of people who love pavement right and who love Stephen Malcomus, but as I was listening to this in preparation for our chat, I'm like, Malcomus is like an underrated everything.

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[1:04] Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.

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[1:12] Hey, it's J.D. here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band, Pavement. Week over week, we're going to countdown the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots. I then tabulated the results using an abacus and a four-slice toaster I had fashioned into a time machine. Now I pull the blinds of the time curtain. Yesterday is totally getting a do-over. How will your favorite song fare in the rankings? You'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week I'm joined by Pavement superfan Mike fucking Hogan. How the hell are you, Mike? I'm doing good, JD. JD uh it's nice to talk to you yeah it's nice to talk to you too I've listened to you you know uh over the years with Bob on the on the pod and uh we've been lonesome for you yeah I was uh you know in advance of this I was like god when did we start that podcast and I looked the first episode was August of 2017 um and we did 177 episodes the last one being December of of, uh, 2022. And I think that was the only one we did that year too. I don't know. I haven't, I haven't checked, but yeah, we were pretty, we were pretty active, uh, for a few years with some breaks in between. Um, but, uh, but yeah, um, it was fun.

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[2:39] So will the podcast be dusted off at some point? Will we get the Pavement-esque reunion tour? That's kind of the open question. I wouldn't say no. We don't have any immediate plans. The last time I talked to Bob about it was probably about, I don't know, four or five months ago. And he said maybe after the new year. You know, I think we we really paused things because, you know, obviously Pavement was rehearsing and then touring and things were hectic. We actually had this I had this idea to do a different like tour diary podcast in every city. Yeah.

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[3:21] Like, you know, of course, the podcast that we did was very synchronous where we would talk back and forth. We would play songs but i was i had this idea where he would asynchronously record like five or ten minutes about like i'm in kansas city and here's my experience with kansas city and then we he'd pick a song that was kansas city based and i'd pick you know but it never it never ended up working out it would have been fun maybe damn that would have been great yeah maybe on the next reunion tour maybe the next reunion tour but yeah i think you know i mean between that and you know he's had some life changes i've had some life changes we kind of just were like let's take a pause let's um maybe start fresh you know after 177 episodes it's like how many different bands can you talk about that you haven't talked about in the first 176 so uh um you know i think if we came back we would probably you know might keep the same format but allow ourselves the opportunity to revisit and almost treat it as a fresh start. Hmm. That's interesting. You heard it here first, folks. No promises, you know, but no promises either way, really. Right. That's cool. It's, you know, you're saying there's a chance.

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[4:41] Cool. Well, let's get right into it. Let's talk about your pavement origin story. story? Boy, um, I think I first heard of pavement. Um, I wasn't early enough to get the first seven inch. Um, but I think maybe the first drag city seven inch, um, it was probably the first time I'd heard of them. I don't know if I even bought it at the time I was in that era. I was in college. I was at very active in the college radio station at Santa Clara University KSU. And I was a music director for a little while. And there, you know, obviously, Pavement was getting a bit of buzz. And I remember them just being this band that had put out a few singles. They were getting written up in zines. You know, there wasn't social media. So there wasn't any of that buzz at that time. And it was it was like unless you had someone that had a copy you you know It was almost impossible to even find in stores, So they had this just kind of air about them of like and and there were no photos of them There weren't even their names. It was just SM and spiral stairs, and it was just this like very.

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[6:02] Mysterious like who the hell are these guys and then little bits would come out where it was like Like, oh, you know, one of them worked at the Whitney as a as a as a guide. And they recorded in this in the studio in Stockton. And, you know, the the the drummer is the guy that runs the studio. He's just this old crazy dude. You know, it was just like little bits of information would kind of come out. And I think I think really what kind of hooked me was probably the 10 inch perfect sound forever. And then by the time Slandered and Enchanted came out, it was like I was full on waiting for it. And I think the first time I saw them, the only time I saw them until the reunion tour a couple years ago, was in San Francisco at the Kennel Club a week before Slandered and Enchanted came out.

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[6:56] Was released. And shit. Yes, because I worked at the radio station, we had an advanced copy. So I was I was like, vigorously listening to the record. And so totally prepared for the show. And it's funny, because I think it was written up in one of the papers, one of the San Francisco papers, because the buzz was already even big. Even though Matador was still a pretty small label at the time. It was like this local band, local ish band is kind of getting uh some attention and uh it was funny the show was sold out and gary was out front like shaking people's hands as they walked into the show like could not believe that everybody was there to see him you know he'd been trying for years and years to hit it big in the music industry and couldn't believe that these two weird college kids that came into his studio was like his venue for We're actually getting some level of success. So it was kind of cool.

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[7:59] Oh, very cool. Yeah. How was that show? It was, it was amazing. It was a little, um, ramshackle as some of their shows back then could have been. Um, but I just remember, you know, because I was so excited for it. Um, I just remember being like, odd, like, wow, this is great. You know? And then I never got a chance to see them again until they did the reunion tour. Uh, it was probably 30, a little over 30 years between my first and second pavement show that's hey you know what when you see them before slant it drops you're doing pretty good right like i like i think that's phenomenal i think the article in the paper said it would be like their 20th show that they played or something like that so it was certainly one of you know because before then they were just a recording band and you know they didn't it was you know all of the i think the earlier records were just the two of them plus gary uh and so they they sort of had to figure out like how are we as a band when we're playing out live and uh you know it was early enough that i think that i was still seeing some of that evolution of what pavement would become oh that is so fucking cool i you You know, I didn't get on board until very late, very late. So they were already broken up. Like, yeah.

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[9:23] So, yeah, I got on board very late. And it's just listening to all this kind of talk, which I've heard, you know, a lot. I've done a lot of these at this point, these interviews and listening to people's pavement origin stories. Uh, you know, there's a lot of people who came late, but the people who came early have really fantastic stories. Like, you know, the fact that, uh, there were a mystery, you know, and that's something when I interviewed spiral, he said they really, that was something that was really important to them. And in fact, he was disappointed when they sort of dropped the. Like he wished they could have kept going with the – I don't know how they would have done that. Played in lucha masks or something? I don't know. Daft Punk did it for how many years, right? Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Or the residents. I mean it had been done before. But yeah, that was certainly part of the mystique for me. And seeing them, like, wow, they're real people when I saw them live. It was like – this is the, you know, yeah, the reveal of the curtain.

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[10:31] But yeah, and that was why when slanted, I mean, perfect, perfect sound forever, too. But especially when slanted dropped, it was like felt very fresh, felt familiar, but totally different at the same time. And that's why in some ways, I think my experience of pavement is just naturally different from somebody that experienced them later when they already had this full body of work. And you could see you could see that progression because there was just this question of where were they going and what would they do next and um i can imagine the ep that came after was like oh my god these four songs are just amazing incredible like like and and it was uh.

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[11:19] Yeah it was interesting it was um a very exciting time and they were like a very important band for me in that, in that period of my life. I bet. So what, um, is your go-to record at this point? Do you have one or, I mean, I know that's a tough question because it probably changes week, week over week, but you know, just think about right now, what would you, if, if we get off the phone here and you want to just reminisce about some pavement, what are you going to throw? It's hard because, you know, I think as somebody who had that level of experience about like this mystique early on and the seven inches were and, you know, the early albums were really just so ingrained in my memory. Like, I almost don't need I listened to Slandered and Enchanted before our talk today. And it was probably the first time in a couple years that I'd listened to it. But it was like, I knew every one of those songs. So in intimately, I knew every note, every lyric, every, you know, Baba Baba, you know, like every little like, like, part of the songs in a way that the later albums.

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[12:38] I'm not as intimately familiar with. So when I listen to a later record, it's almost like hearing it fresh. And I can't distance myself from my experience of like Perfect Sound Forever back when it came out, or Slanded went back when it came out. But that said, I think if I were to just be like, I wanna put on a record, um well i mean watery domestic is probably my favorite piece of work that they did but it's only four songs so it's wrong but it's so fast yeah it just is over so quickly and i think i only had it on cd i only recently bought the the vinyl of it and i didn't realize that the little like you know that little like transitional piece i didn't realize it was at the end of a song i thought it was the intro of a song because i always just listened to the cd ah and it just went i never paid enough attention to it because i didn't listen to it on shuffle or anything um and so it was almost revelatory when i got it on vinyl i was like this is like the way it's supposed to be like and then i flipped the side over um so that must have been brain busting It was kind of weird. I thought that was the intro to the song, but it was really the outro.

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[14:04] Well, speaking of Pavement songs, should we get into the song that you're going to cover? Yeah, let's do it. All right. We'll be right back after listening to song number 17.

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[14:19] Hey, this is Bob Nestanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening. And now on with a countdown.

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[14:28] 17.

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[16:10] There you have it. Song number 17 is Zurich is Stained from the debut long play Slanted and Enchanted. Mike, is this song in fact slanted and or enchanted? Discuss. Yes, indeed. I love this song. This song, it really is. And it's sort of an oasis. I love where it appears on the record. it's coming straight out of the chaos of uh conduit for sale and right before the chaos of chelsea's little wrists and you get this like really light breezy but fast song i mean it's not a ballad it's not like here it is it is this breezy light almost feels like it would be.

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[17:03] At home on the velvet underground's third record you know there's this mood to it that feels, in some ways different from earlier in the record and even what comes a little later where there's a lot of like fuzz and noise it's just this light little break um that's almost this perfect little slice of i don't even know how long it is but i'm guessing it's less than two minutes it's It's just, uh, yeah, it's, it's in and out. Yeah. It's in and out. And, and the whole time Malchmus, I don't think really pauses the vocals for more than a second or two. It's just beautiful little instrumentation with his vocals kind of just strung throughout it all. Yeah. I'm singing it in my head right now. It's right. It's, it's, uh.

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[17:59] I mean, you know, and it's like the chorus keeps coming back and then he ends it with the, you know, like just it is a perfect little song. It's just a perfect slice of, and if I were to play somebody that had never heard Pavement, if I would play them, what is from a songwriting perspective, what is a quintessential Pavement song? You know, there are probably a few others that might come to mind, but this is like one of those like sleeper cuts. It's just such a perfect little song that doesn't get the buzz of like the Summer Babes or, you know, some of the more hit songs. I just I love it, though. yeah it's a it's a it's a really great song it's very different from the rest of the record for for sure it like maybe even it's like more at home on crooked rain crooked rain like you know like just sonically but uh but you're right where it hits in the record is is just is just right and And it's a refreshing little wafer, you know, before the next meal. Yes. Or the next course.

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[19:22] Yeah. I think because of where it hits in the record, it feels mellower, you know? Feels in contrast to some of the other songs that come before and after it. What did you say is right before it? Conduit? Conduit, yeah. Okay, yeah. So it comes out of that frantic chaos into this breezy little, there's like the twang guitar, there's no fuzz, it's just this kind of light, catchy little, very short song, song, but that feels fully formed. It's not one of those songs that feels too short. You know, it just is like an idea song. Like, like there's a lot of those on Wowie, for example. Right. Yeah. Yes. Right. Or, you know, I mean, I can even think of like Emmett Rhodes lullaby. I don't know if you know that song. It's, it's, it was used. I first heard of it in, um, I think Royal Tenenbaums, one of those Wes Anderson movies, but, um, it's a beautiful little song and it's It's only a minute long, and it just feels too short. Zyrka's Dane does not like that. It just feels fully formed, even though it's only a minute in, I don't know, 50 or something. Yeah.

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[20:41] What was I going to ask you? I was going to ask you if you've got a line on what it's potentially about. And if not, that's cool. I don't know. No, I mean, I miss Malcolm. This is hard. I, I kind of try not to read in too much to the lyrics because I also don't really trust the lyrics. Um, if you know what I mean, like if the lyric sheet, um, is often or not, I wouldn't say often, sometimes the lyric sheet, Like I'm looking at the lyric sheet right now that is included in the vinyl of Slanted and Enchanted. And the one that stands out is not necessarily Zerka Stain, but on Loretta's scars, you know, the, the line from now on, I can see the sun is always what I knew it to be. But the lyric sheet says from now on, I can see the slums. And so. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I sort of, especially with Mouthmasters lyrics, I try not to read too much into it. It's just this like, kind of catchy thing.

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[22:06] You know, like a jumble of words that make sense within the music of the song. I call it word salad. Yeah. I call it word salad. You get a tasty morsel in every forkful. You know, there's a little bit of everything. There's imagery. There's, you know, these slant rhymes sometimes. Really cool phrases. Memorable phrases. Yes. I almost feel like, you know, I can't sing it strong enough is a great line. I don't know what it's about. Right. And I don't even know if it's about, I mean, the song is Zurich is Stained. I don't even think it's about Zurich. There's no other sort of mention of it. Yeah, I mean, right. Like, it's okay. It's not your fault. Cool. cool.

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[22:57] Whose fault is it? Do we even care? I don't know. I just try not to. I try not to read too much into it. And I think one of the one of the things that I noticed and what I've always kind of tried to avoid when I would talk music, you know, the songs when when Bob and I did three songs, but is I would, I would try and talk about the music and not try to analyze the lyrics so much, unless there was something that really like, like stood out and grabbed me and resonated with me. Um, but yeah, I think, I think Malchmus is especially at this phrase, you know, phase of his career. I felt like each line was its kind of own self-contained mini story and often didn't even like match or connect or follow the line that came after it um so to your question what's the song about i have no idea that's cool well i'll pivot completely then and we'll go back to three songs for a minute how the fuck you know did you and bob connect yeah this is this is kind of.

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[24:09] Obviously, I was a fan for a while, for a long time. And I'm thinking back in 2013, I moved to New York City. And I started working at a horse racing company. Okay. And actually, it probably was 2014 that I moved there in 2013. Probably a year later, I got the job at the horse racing company. And as I'm sure you know, Bob has always been interested in horse racing. And what he was, I was based in New York, he was based in Iowa. But he was the local representative for the Iowa racetrack for the company that I worked for. And so when I get there and I see, you know, Bob Nastanovich, I'm like, hey, man, what's up? And we started working together for work. And then I was at some point I was like, you know, I'm familiar with your band, Bandza, you know, because I was also certainly familiar with the Silver Jews as well. So good. And so we just became friends. I worked there. I think Bob got laid off because horse racing is not really a growth industry. So Bob got laid off. And then a year or two later, I got laid off.

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[25:37] But we were always friendly friends. I'd consider us friends. We became friends, even though we lived a couple thousand miles away from each other. Yeah um and after i got laid off in 2017 i was like hey i got some time now you want you want you want to do a music podcast um and he was like yeah sure and so we threw around ideas of like what it would be about and how we would approach it what we would call it all of that and he suggested three songs and we just kind of bandied back and forth uh you know hey this is this is is sort of how i want to do it i just want it to be like two friends talking music and sharing music that we like with each other kind of like the way it was back when pavement started when you just couldn't find things online there was no online you just had to hear about it because somebody you knew was into it and be like oh you got to check this out you'll love it so that was sort of the spirit of it we started i think our first episode i know our first episode i didn't have a mixer it sounds like shit you couldn't really hear bob bob couldn't hear the songs um but i just left it up anyway because they were good songs and it just it was uh a good a good chat um and then by episode two i got i bought a mixer and a mic and uh we're we're off.

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[27:00] Game changed. Game changed. And we, yeah, we were friends for probably two and a half years before we did the podcast. Yeah. And then we did the podcast for probably another two and a half years before we met in person. So I knew Bob and was friends with Bob for five years before we'd ever. And you guys did an episode together in person, right? We did one episode in person. Yeah. Okay. I remember listening to that one. Yeah. I mean, I've listened to a bunch, but I specifically remember that one. Yeah. It was sort of weird because we're doing this with video. I can see you, so you can see me. I can see when you're ready to talk. We didn't do any of that. Bob didn't want to be on camera. He felt uncomfortable. He's out on his back porch. He's just running around. You'd hear the dog in the background. So I didn't know when he was done talking, and we would sometimes talk over each other. So doing the one in person when we could actually see each other's cues was a little strange, to be honest. Because we had done, I don't know, at that point, two and a half years worth, probably close to 100 episodes. That's what I was going to say. I feel like it was in the 90s, that episode. But I might be wrong. Yeah. That was probably after. Because we did the 100th episode.

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[28:21] Yeah, we did the 100th episode, which was the David Berman Silver Jews focus one. Which is still our most listened to episode. That was the episode 100. And I know we recorded it a few months before we met in person. So, yeah, we probably did 110 before we'd ever met in person. And the reason we met, the way we met, was Bob came to Portland in January of 2020 because there was a tribute show to David and to Silver Juice. And so Bob, so we, you know, I think there were a number of people that played, including.

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[29:02] Uh, um, the woman, Rebecca from the Spananes, um, played a set. Um, there were a few others that played, but the headliner was, uh, just a duo of Bob and Steven playing, playing silver juice stuff, which, and you can find it, you can find the recording on, um, on YouTube and famously one of it's great. It's actually worth seeking out because, you know, it was, it was cool to see. Um but someone in the comments was like this sounds like shit and then bob replied and he's like sorry man i can give you your five bucks back or whatever and and then the guy was like oh i'm really sorry i didn't mean to you know it's he's like that is spectacular yeah so it's it's almost it's worth watching for sure but it's almost worth seeking out to to find that little nugget of, of exchange, um, in, in the, in the YouTube comments section. But, um, but yeah, that was the first time we met. Did you parlay that meeting into, uh, an opportunity to meet with SM? I did. Yes. So this is, this is sort of my meeting mouth story. Although I actually met him in the nineties briefly at Satyricon when, um, the Geraldine Fibbers were playing. He.

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[30:23] He lived in Portland at that point, and I think I was still down in Eugene, but I was and have been good friends with Nels Klein for years and years and years, put out some of his records back in the 90s. And then he got into the Geraldine Fibbers and was playing guitar with them. They played a show at Satyricon and I was hanging out with Nels and Stephen came to the show. And so I met him briefly then in the 90s. um but then yeah flash forward 20 plus years january 2020 so that the the day before the show.

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[30:57] That they played uh with a tribute to to david is the day that bob and i hung out we recorded the podcast that day we went and had lunch we had dinner i just hung we just hung out together all day. And then, um, I was going to head home and he's like, ah, just crash, crash in Stephen's basement. There's, there's two couches there. I I'm on one, you can crash on the other. And I was like, yeah, okay, no problem. And so, um, we got back there, I don't know, around midnight, everybody was asleep. We'd go down to the basement and, you know, and then I get up around eight or so to go to leave and um the basement stairs were right at the top uh or the top of the stairs was right at the kitchen and so um i went there was a bathroom in the basement i went and used the bathroom and i was about like putting my shoes on and about to leave and steven's wife jessica comes to the top of the stairs and is like bob's bob and i'm standing there, and I just say like I didn't know what to say of course I'm like uh, Bob's friend and she's like oh Bob had a sleepover and I was like uh yeah hi I'm Mike so um.

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[32:17] So then, and, and so that was sort of a strange little, and then I got, you know, got my shoes and my jacket and I'm like going up the stairs and what at the top of the stairs, it's like you see the full kitchen and, you know, Jessica and Steve's daughters were in the kitchen having breakfast. And I'm like, um, nice to meet you. Thanks for letting me crash here. Even though you didn't know I was crashing here. here um uh you know like hey i'm mike and just like really sheepishly like trying to leave and the back door is right kind of at you go to the top of the stairs and to the right is the kitchen and straight ahead is the the side door um that goes to their their driveway and i'm like trying to open the side door and jessica's like it kind of sticks a little bit do you want me to help and And I'm like, oh, I think I got it. And so I'm like fiddling with the doorknob for like 10 seconds, which felt like two minutes. And then I finally got it opened and it was like, all right, thanks. See you later.

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[33:25] And then later that day, you know, Bob said, come on over. We'll hang out. And so I came over later that day and then met them in earnest. And they were very sweet. She was very sweet. You know, like, I'm really sorry. And I was here and she's like, don't worry about it. And then Steven was there. And he was like, they were just kind of.

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[33:43] Prepping for the show later that evening and um he was very nice he actually gave me he just finished reading lou reed's a biography on lou reed he's like i'm looking for on it and i was like yeah sure so i've got steve's steven's copy of uh the lou reed biography up in my my bedroom.

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[34:01] Somewhere that's spectacular i think that's really cool yeah yeah borrowing books from steven malcolm any other uh chances that you met him or um yeah i mean i've met him briefly a few other times you know bob um would come to town when pavement was rehearsing i think they rehearsed for about almost a month before they did their their first reunion tour in 2022 22 um yeah bob bob stayed here for probably maybe not quite a month maybe three or four weeks two or three weeks and um you know i would not every day but regularly after they were done i would you know hang out with bob a little bit and we'd get some dinner or whatever and one night there was some band playing and um steven and jessica went and we tagged along and so i've met him a number of times we're i would say we're friendly but we're not friends i don't have his number he doesn't have mine you know if if i were to run into him around town which um happens now and then i'd probably feel too shy to say hi but um if i did i think he would know who i was and be okay with it that's that's.

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[35:19] Pretty neat though i would say yeah you know i mean this is one of the things about portland it's like a it's a it's kind of a small town it's a big big enough city but it's also kind of a small town yeah well i want to share something with you because it's kind of funny uh you know it's in the lore of meeting malchmus i reached out to bob when i first conceived of this podcast in the fall of uh 2018 and asked him if he wanted to co-host meeting malchmus and this is the you know this is the premise and blah blah blah and uh i didn't have it all nailed down at that point um but i gave him the i gave him the highlights and he's He's like, he responded back and he's like, sounds fun, but I'm already doing a podcast. And I was like, tell me what it's called. And that's how I found out about your podcast.

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[36:11] But that's also how Bob ended up not on Needy Malcomus, if he would have done it, if he would have done it. Well, so I apologize because I feel like I'm the reason why he said no. Although I would have to check. There were times, and I think that the fall of 2018 was one of those times. There were times, and if you look back through our episodes, you'll see big gaps, and it's often.

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[36:37] Associated with life events. And my, my daughter was born in July of 2018. And I think right after that, we actually did probably a six month pause. Cause I was like, I don't, I'm working. And, uh, you know, I mean, I took a little time off, you know, I'm not sleeping yet. Like, uh, as priorities go, I don't know if I'll have time to talk to you for a little bit. So you, even though Bob, I mean, and I appreciate Bob being loyal to me. It was probably during a pause, and he probably could have said, hey, I've got the time right now. I am doing a podcast, but we're not doing it right away. That's funny. Yeah. So do you have anything you want to plug other than three songs at this point? What's the episode that people should grab of three songs aside from the Berman episode? Episode like what would you say is is a standout episode that gives you a real sense of what the show is well okay so those are almost two questions because.

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[37:41] The standout episode of what the show is this the premise of the show was bob would bring three songs to play to me that he thought i maybe didn't know uh and might like and i would do the same for him um and so those some of those early episodes where we were still finding our footing were a lot of the songs where it was like, Oh my God, I fucking love this song so much. Like the X is state of shock. Um, you know, like some, some of these go between songs or some of these like old blue songs that, that just like really resonated with me in a strong way. I was like, I, you know, I don't know if you know this, but like, I want to play it for you and just get your reaction. Um, so, you know, I don't know. I, don't have the list in front of me and my screen saver went to sleep. So I, you know, I'm not even going to log in to figure out what some of those early episodes were. Um, but, uh, you know, I, what I, what I also tried to do, and it was never a spoken thing between Bob and I, but I, I was inherently conscious of the fact we were two middle-aged white dudes.

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[38:54] Talking music and i wanted to make sure we weren't just talking about white dudes no it is very if you haven't listened to it listen to it but there are there are like i'm just going i'm making this up but like throat singers and or did you have a throat singer uh i don't know if we went quite that wild but we would do yeah it's everywhere though it's like you guys you guys covered the spectrum yes music all kinds of genres all kinds of countries we try we tried to go all around the world you know and we tried to also be very inclusive of all genders and you know because again it's just two white dudes talking we didn't want it to be like very focused on on like western western music you know that said we didn't want to make it so obscure that people would be like, there's not anything here for me, you know, like, we would try to try to walk that line where it would still be fun and worthwhile. And, you know, I think if nothing else, it was just, I hope that people came because they liked Bob, and they liked me, and they felt like they were listening in to friends.

Track 3:

[40:08] And they felt like they were one of of our friends that were experiencing this music and experiencing this conversation at the same time. Um, I hope it was more that and not like, Oh, I'm going to list, listen because today they're talking about, you know, Sebado or whatever. I'm going to listen because today they're talking about some band I know, and I want to hear what they say.

Track 3:

[40:30] I, I, I was, I hope we built enough of an audience that liked us and trusted us. So that's it. It's the trust piece. It's like you guys were sort of a modern day equivalent of like the record shop dude, you know, that trusted guy that, you know, Gary Gal.

Track 3:

[40:51] It's like, hey, I saw you buying these two records. Yeah. You're probably going to totally dig this. Yes. Yes. Tastemakers. I hope, I hope the unjudgmental record shop dude that wasn't like, oh, I can't believe you bought this.

Track 3:

[41:06] No, I don't mean that. You know some of those types, right? Yeah. We wanted it to be, you know, I also didn't want it to be a situation where I was, you know, ripping on someone's art. Or if I didn't like it, I would just be like, oh, it's maybe not my thing. But most of the time, everything Bob played for me, I was into or found some sort of way to resonate with.

Track 3:

[41:32] But aside from that, I mean, I'm not doing any podcasts. I don't have anything to plug. I mean, I think those that have listened to the show know that Bob runs a small record label. And back in the 90s, I ran a small record label called Little Brother Records. Records um you know uh i've got a few of the old back stock and maybe i'll send me your address i'll send you a little package of some of the old records i put out um oh wow cool yeah um you know and it's uh so but i wouldn't say i have that to plug it's just part of my it's part of my origin story yeah absolutely well i really want to thank you for taking this time with me today it's been a blast talking to you dude yeah appreciate it thanks for thinking of me thanks for including me no you're you're near top of the list when i started thinking of like people that i solicited to like on my twitter and stuff like that uh i i asked basically anybody and everybody but then i also had like the celebrity wing you know and uh you appeared on that list so i i company you're in.

Track 3:

[42:42] I don't know if I would even come close to listing me as a celebrity, but I appreciate the thought. In the podcast, in the indie rock podcast world, I would see you. If you want to say our top episode, which is the Berman one, that got maybe 12,000 listens, if that makes me a celebrity. I mean, you know. If you had 12,000 people in your living room listening to you talk, that would be a pretty fucking big deal. That's true. I don't know if I'd have enough food for them.

Track 3:

[43:14] I had a friend tell me that early on in podcasting. They were, you know, they were like, because I was like, I don't know. I don't want to put myself out there and see the numbers. And they were like, if you have 12 people that listen, like, that's pretty cool. Well, I think more than that, but the sense that you, that I get is that you approach it the way that Bob and I approached it. And, um, you know, I had the advantage of kind of tagging along to a, a, a celebrity.

Track 3:

[43:43] And so Bob's name helped bring in listeners, but we, we didn't, we didn't do any promotion other than maybe, you know, little like, like Twitter promotion. We didn't, we didn't solicit any, um, sponsors or anything like that. We didn't ever want to try and find a way to monetize it because if we were doing that, it wouldn't be what I wanted. Yeah. And it wouldn't be fun. It wouldn't be, it would be like work, you know, and I wanted it to be my release for like, here's an opportunity to talk to my friend about music. Um, and maybe, you know, maybe we will find an audience you know if you're if you're authentic and you're doing something for the right reasons often the audience finds you it may take a little while um but that's i think that's also about the the way i look at a lot of the music that i like you know bands like sonic youth weren't you know or or the x is another huge band that i just have loved for their whole career they're not worried about is it going to sell or whatever and they just they find the audience eventually.

Track 3:

[44:52] Yeah i would say i would say authenticity is a is a reasonable place to start from, yeah that's the best i can do yeah yeah hey again thanks so much and uh wash your goddamn hands.

Track 1:

[45:11] Thanks for listening to Meeting Malcomus, a pavement podcast where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you. If you've got questions or concerns, please shoot me an email. JD at Meeting Malcomus dot com.

This week on the show jD welcomes Vish from his own Kreative Kontrol, if you haven't checked it out get after it!

Vish discusses song 18 and shares his Pavement origin story.

Transcript:

Track 1:

[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50.

Track 2:

[0:02] This week we're going deep on Box Elder. How are you feeling about song number 19, Kyra, from the COWI? I fucking love Box Elder so much. It's a great song. It's one of the earlier Pavement songs. I think it's a very early Pavement song, which is cool. And it's one that really holds up.

Track 1:

[0:25] I think, too. you. Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.

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[0:34] Hey, it's JD here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band Pavement. Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballads. I then tabulated the results using an abacus, a wet towel, and some scrawny kid from 10th grade gym class. How will your favorite songs fare in the rankings? You'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week I'm joined by Pavement superfan Vish from Creative Control with Vish Khanna. Dude, thanks for taking some time to do this. It means a lot. How the hell are you doing? I'm well, JD. Thanks for having me on your show. How are you doing? I'm great today. It's a little overcast here, but it's about five degrees so i'm gonna go for a walk later and uh.

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[1:24] And that's a, that's, those are good times for me. Very nice. That's good. Going outside. Can't beat it. Yeah. No, you can't at all. Well, let's not beat around the bush, speaking of beat it, and get right into your Pavement Origins story.

Track 3:

[1:38] Talk to me about that, Vish. Well, I was trying to, you know, I knew I was coming on your show, so I figured I should try to ponder this, you know, and I, I was trying to remember. Remember, I think I first came upon the band when I read about them in Spin Magazine, like, I think before Crooked Rain came out. And I don't know what it was about that piece. This is right around the time I started getting to go to record stores. You know, I'm, what would I have been then? I would have been 15, 16. Some of us were driving so we could leave Cambridge, Ontario, where I'm from, and we could go to Kitchener and Waterloo and Toronto. They had the cooler record stores those were like uh college university towns so then we started going to record stores and then you start talking to the record store people and they tell you what they like and you respect them because they're your surrogate parents so somebody somebody somewhere along the line told me about pavement i i'm pretty sure it was the spin magazine article that i was i started devouring more and more music journalism and i think it was that so i remember owning uh slanted and enchanted and also uh the record store had the trigger cut single so i think i bought both things and i'm fairly certain about both things and uh i will say that that first single got me completely obsessed with their singles um because i think they're.

Track 3:

[3:07] I don't know, they're one of the greatest treasure troves of any band I can think of. I know you've probably talked about this with others, but I really value Pavement B-Sides. Like, I wasn't that surprised. I mean, I was surprised that Harness Your Hopes went kind of bonkers recently, but like, I'm not surprised. Like, Pavement B-Sides, I know some of them better than I know the album songs, to be honest with you. I just became so obsessed with how great, like, the the quality of their B-sides really spoke to me. And then, yeah, that's one of the, and then I feel like that was a gateway into like, what is Silver Jews? Like, why is this, what is Silver Jews in the pavement section? What is it? Oh, it's a, it's a project. Oh, there's Bob and Steve on the back of the album covers. So they're in this, I guess. And so, yeah, the B-side alternate pavement universe if you will really spoke to me and still does uh i find myself uh kind of you know mumbling song lyrics and and tunes and melodies from you know humming them from from all the b-side so yeah i i would i would position myself that way as someone who i get a little obsessive so it wasn't just the album uh the albums it was like i want to get all the singles so i owned every single.

Track 3:

[4:24] On mostly on compact disc when i was coming up of age and now i've got them all on actually you know what i ordered i ordered that thing that you ordered the box that i ordered the singles box that i have a bunch of them but i was like what the hell i'm gonna do it so the book looks good yeah everything about it looks good i love pavement so uh i just thought i would get that too and uh yeah i think that's pretty much it that's where i discovered them and then of course they blew up uh you know they're one of those bands that all your cool uh heroes were talking talking about before you even heard them you know so you'd read a interview with somebody you liked and they'd mention pavements you're like what is this pavement so really have a time and place for me word of mouth and then actually digging in i have still a sense memory of playing slanted and enchanted and hearing summer babe and you're just like what the hell so yeah i'd say that's that that that's that's got to be it i think that's it and you got to be there for the release of watery then did you as somebody who was like sort of ep and single obsessed did you pick that up when it came out i did i did pick it up i don't know if i got it right when it came out i can't say that for sure because i feel like i still came to them a little bit later um because i'm sure they were that article was 93 like i don't think it was about slanted it was just mentioned so but i got it yeah and as you may have heard me talk about it's yeah it's my it's like my favorite thing, really, in some ways. I love, and yeah, I miss Gary Young.

Track 3:

[5:51] I never got to meet or talk to Gary Young, but yeah, the drumming as a drummer as well, as a budding drummer, like hearing Gary's playing, that had a huge influence on me too. So yeah, that era. Put your finger on what it is, isn't it?

Track 3:

[6:06] Like, what it is about Gary's drumming. I love Westy. I love him. He's a great guy, and he's a great drummer. But there's something about Gary. There's something about the looseness and the showmanship of people like Gary Young. I would say here in Canada, we have Mark Gaudette, who was in Eric's trip, and his drumming, too. Like, it's punk rock, but it's a bit more technical. And it's precise, but it's loose. And it just has it. He's making an instrument. you know they have their own voice i suppose as drummers they have their own like you hear it and you're like oh that's that's that's either gary or as i mentioned mark for two examples uh or it's someone copying them you know it's someone someone kind of ripping them off so i certainly was of this learning how to play the instrument and getting into some really amazing drummers at the time uh just because i didn't take drum lessons i would just listen to things or go see bands and And certain people and their drumming had a huge impact on me. And certainly early pavement drumming, you know, I think it's an underrated facet of that band. Did you get a chance to see the Gary Dock?

Track 3:

[7:18] No, you know what? I haven't seen that doc. That's a good call. I've been rather swamped of late and I need to do that. Have you seen it? Yeah, it's really, it's, it's pretty fabulous. Yeah, I can imagine. You're right. I should, I don't know. I'm at a thing where I got to do so much and I process so much information and music and I can't keep up with everything. So yeah, I saw it come through and I was like, yeah, I will watch that eventually. And then before you know it, I don't think I'm alone in this where there's just so much stuff to consume, but yeah, good Good call. Good call. I'll try to track it down on, I don't know if it's on a thing, a service or whatever, a streaming service, but I'll try and watch that. Yeah, I think it is because I don't know how I would have seen it. I forgot. Yeah. Um, when, when did you finally get to, uh, see them live or did you see them live in the original sort of run? I saw them for the first time in Barrie, Ontario at Lollapalooza in 1995. This was the. Wow. Lollapalooza curated by Sonic Youth.

Track 3:

[8:18] So also on the bill was, it was supposed to be Sinead, or sorry, it was supposed, yeah, it was supposed to be Sinead O'Connor, but I think I attended the first show that she couldn't play because she was pregnant. And so Elastica filled in, but the day was like a mighty, mighty Boston's first time I got to see the Jesus lizard. Blizzard, uh, uh, Pavement obviously played during the day, uh, Hole played. Beck was on the lineup too, wasn't he? Yeah, I saw Beck play two sets, one on the main stage, uh, this was just ahead, uh, ahead of Odile coming up, and, um, he also did a side stage, uh, performance where I actually spoke to him, he, he came down and, uh, signed autographs, so he signed, I don't know where it is but he signed my Lollapalooza ticket stub and I asked him I actually I think I, I tripped him out a little because I'd heard that he was going to be collaborating with a Toronto musician. And when I mentioned it, he was like, oh, yeah, we have been talking about that. Like he was I kind of nardwired him.

Track 3:

[9:23] I didn't mean it was just a rumor. I just said it. And he was like, oh, yeah, we were talking about that. So anyway. Yeah. So, yeah. And the Far Side played and Moby played and all sorts of amazing eclectic. Yeah. Yeah, Cypress Hill was one of the headliners. Bob Nastanovich, when he was on my show, I did a little documentary about Bright in the Corners. And he talked extensively about their experiences with some of the artists and their experiences playing Lollapalooza. And Bob's amazing innovation of suggesting that instead of getting a bus, they would each get minivans. He got a great deal in some rental minivans and that way they could play and then just drive ahead to the show and not worry about the gear and all that stuff and and and they could kind of travel at their leisure and uh yeah anyway so Lollapalooza 95 is the first show then I saw them at the Phoenix in Toronto for the Bright in the Corners tour and then I saw them play uh you remember the cool house and the, sorry, for those wondering in Toronto.

Track 3:

[10:33] There was a venue and it had two rooms. It was called the Warehouse. And then beside it was something called the Government, a smaller room. And then the Warehouse became, it was like the RPM Warehouse or something like that. That's right. And then it changed names. It was the Cool House, but I think the Government was still there. So for Terror Twilight, as I recall, Pavement played the Government. So the smaller room on that tour. So I saw them there. And then I saw them on Toronto Island on the first reunion tour with the Broken Social scene.

Track 3:

[11:08] And I think that's the last time I was invited or I was supposed to go see them in Austin, Texas. And Bob hooked me up. And I think I might have even been able to attend the Austin City Limits taping. But unfortunately, I couldn't make it at the last minute. So that was a bit of a bummer. But I regret it. But, you know, it was weird, still weird pandemic times then. And I, I think there was also other stuff going on. So I didn't get to see them on this current reunion, but it still seems to be going as we're speaking. So who knows?

Track 3:

[11:42] Maybe I can see them somehow. now yeah yeah and we are recording this in early april so yeah there's we're not uh that's not a scoop people just in case you're listening to this in october and you're like oh christ they're coming back um they may they very may well be i just edited the bob episode and you know i sort of teased him because he's like we're done after south america and i was like come on come on yeah i'll believe you're done when i when when you're done yeah but um enough about me back to you uh i'm curious about the lola performance like so you got to see them in a government isn't intimate but it's nice um and then you got to see them in um lollapalooza in front of a big crowd what do you think of the the festival version of pavement well i mean obviously it's well documented that they didn't have the best time on that tour on some level uh in slow century there's obviously the the fracas uh you know uh where people are throwing mud at them and all sorts of a rock at steven actually uh you know i i was a kid i mean that was sensory overload i i was just going to how old was I? So 95 I was had I even turned.

Track 3:

[13:08] Yeah, I was not even, what was I, seven, 16 or something like that? I don't know. I was not an old, I was young. You were 76? No, wait a minute. Yeah, I was 17. So I was born, no, I was born in 77. So I hadn't yet turned 18. So I was 17. And yeah, it was just, that was a bonkers year, to be honest with you. That summer, I went to everything. I went to so many festivals.

Track 3:

[13:31] For all my bellyaching about my parents not letting me do stuff, they let me do a lot of stuff that summer so uh yeah i don't i think i was just overwhelmed by how many people were surrounding me and and and i got up as close as i could for pavement um and we got up really close like seeing the jesus lizard was a bit i love the jesus lizard already at that point i just love them and to see them was like they were larger than life and you know yeah for those who've never seen them or footage of them at that point, Yao would come into the crowd, you know, he would leap off the stage and crowd surf and all that kind of stuff and sing while he was doing it. So it was very immersive. And then Pavement, relatively the opposite, you know, they're on stage and the songs are great and they played well, as I recall. But on some level, I remember just making a point of getting up as close as possible and trying not to, at the same time, you know, be conscious of not bothering people as you move your way up, you know, because I was kind of annoyed at everyone running around and pushing their way forward and all that stuff. So, uh... Never made sense to me. Yeah, it just... That's my main memory of just, like, trying to... I was probably... For the Jesus Lizard and Pavement, I was probably... That was the closest I was probably, uh, to the stage. And, uh... And then otherwise, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I have...

Track 3:

[14:57] I have a real sense memory of the Phoenix show for Bright in the Corners for a few reasons. And I've talked about them with Bob, at least.

Track 3:

[15:05] Bob did an interpolation of a Cool Keith song, which I just, I was like, oh, I didn't know people knew about Cool Keith. Like I had only started listening to Cool Keith at that time. And he did. I have no clue. blue cool keith is a a really uh innovative uh underground hip-hop superstar he was in a group called ultra magnetic mcs and then he went solo as dr octagon and as cool keith has all these pseudonyms and uh to be precise uh and oh yeah black elvis like he had all these cool names so to be precise i believe as i recall bob was quoting dr the dr octagon project and he just did it in the middle of a song and then also the other thing that occurred to me and it's sort of relevant to the song today is during uh stereo when steven malcolm is saying the lines about getty lee and his voice being so high he shot his voice up super high like a comically high effect how did it get so like just pitch perfect super high i think it's i think it's documented in a much music interview that they did that day or whatever, like while they were in town. And then obviously afterwards, they interspersed some live footage of the band playing.

Track 3:

[16:26] And Stephen singing, you know, on this song that we're here to talk about today is so remarkable to me. And I remember that I had this sense memory of him singing that and thinking it was very amusing. I thought it was more amusing than impressive at the time. but over over time as i um have come to value steven's singing voice and his range and his ability, And just instincts as a singer, I view it as more impressive now than, I still think it's funny because I think he's got a comical element to his choices and certainly live anything can happen, but they were just, I think that Bright in the Corner show is the, it's certainly one of the best shows I've ever seen. So I would also say it's one of the, if not the, it was the best time I saw Pavement probably. Oh, that's a great venue. That's what I, that's, I think the Phoenix is phenomenal. I don't want to discount the reunion show I saw because I think with age and time away from each other, they actually have, I don't know, I don't know how many reunion shows you've seen, but often I find that these bands that, particularly for us, you know, the bands around in the 90s, when they come back, they're better. Yeah. They seem more at ease with themselves as people and as players.

Track 3:

[17:45] And so the absence, I don't know what it is. They just seem more relaxed. And I think when you're more relaxed, you play better. I think 20-something angst, we'll call it. I think if you're not relaxed with each other, you don't play as well. You're just a little uptight. And then as you sort of resign yourself to, well, not resign yourself, but as you sort of get, yeah, you let go of things. I guess that is a way of putting it. You kind of let go of any little grudges and you don't have that angst, whether it's your own or whether it's about yourself or whether it's interpersonal. And I think you just play better. So when I saw the Jesus Lizard on the reunion tour, having seen them several times in the 90s, I just was like, I think they're better. You know, they might be better. better and pavement as i recall from the toronto island show it felt good they played so well you know together um but up until that point yeah i would say that bright in the corners show i saw at.

Track 3:

[18:46] The phoenix in toronto was just like they were just on fire it was brilliant so yeah cool yeah well before we get into song number 18 i gotta ask you as one of the only people i know that has interviewed Mark Eibold, the reclusive Mark Eibold, how the hell did you do it? And that interview, by the way, was phenomenal. It was great.

Track 3:

[19:09] Well, that's very kind of you to say. I have to draw back on my memory for this. So the occasion was the Terror Twilight reissue from a year or two or a couple of years ago, whenever it was. Yeah, who knows? And like you, I think my social entry point into this band is Bob Mstanovich.

Track 3:

[19:32] Absolutely. So Bob is, uh, I've gone on record saying this to others. I think I said it maybe to him during our terror twilight discussion. Bob is the greatest podcast guest of all time. You don't even have to ask him a question and he starts. He's so funny and he's so frank and he says things that I surprised he might say. I love him so much and he's been very kind to me over the years as well. I first spoke with Bob, uh around the time of that reunion uh tour um uh and so what was that 2009 10 thank you very much yeah sorry i think the jesus lizard was 2009 so yeah i spoke to bob around that period and then we've maintained contact basically ever since that was for my college radio show actually and then so that was here in toronto yes that's right yeah well i lived when i was living in ontario at at the time. Um, I had a college radio show and would play some pavement and Bob was a guest on that show. And he's, and I probably wrote a magazine article for exclaim magazine as well. That's what I do and used to do more often. Anyway. Um.

Track 3:

[20:43] Yeah. So the Tara Twilight thing came about by this point, Bob and I had, he'd been on my podcast a few times. And so I just, I'm sure I went through the proper channels to get, try to figure out the interview and get the music and the, and you know, all the assets and all that. But Bob, I think I was like, Bob, like, can we get everyone? Let's just get everyone on the show. Probably like you have done, like you just, you know, you're, you're trying to do this now. You're trying to talk to as many of the members as you possibly can. Absolutely. And in the loop. So, yeah, you know, I'm emailing Stephen and I think I texted Stephen because, you know, he wasn't responding.

Track 3:

[21:22] And so we sort of landed on Westy and Bob and Mark and then Jesper, who was involved in the reissue for Matador, was going to take part. And then at the day of, Mark couldn't do it. He was in transit. He couldn't join us for the group call. But yeah, Bob connected us over email, I believe, and maybe text, I don't recall. And so Mark and I, Mark felt, I think, kind of badly that he couldn't do it, like that he said he would do it and that he didn't end up doing it. And uh i i assume bob vouched for me you know um and so that was kind of it uh really we corresponded uh he felt badly that he couldn't make the group call we arranged a time we had a good talk you heard it uh and then i believe i put it out the right after i had put out that that group call uh so back to back it was like pavement week on my show for terror twilight light. Um, so, uh, yeah, I don't, can't recall cause I do so many of these, uh.

Track 3:

[22:37] Exactly what mark and i talked about i think we talked about some of his, radio listening habits you did yes he still uses a radio yeah you might actually have a better perspective on it than me at this point because i just don't remember uh you know i jd i'm sure you're familiar with this you do so many of them uh interviews uh episodes you're just like oh yeah, i forgot i had so and so on the show what the hell did we talk about again i that happens to me all the time when i edit i'll be listening and i'll be like it sounds like a conversation between somebody who doubles my voice and my guests because i don't recall virtually anything about what we talked about well i remember realizing it was um a real kind of rarity for mark to do such a thing i think at the time um a sonic youth uh archival compilation had had just come out that mark appeared on so there's just a fair amount to talk about it was a lot of memory jogging unfortunately for him like you know trying to remember the terror twilight sessions trying to remember playing with sonic youth like all about a decade out from doing it you know or more a decade or more 20 years um so uh yeah i i he was very lovely and uh and forthcoming and um.

Track 3:

[23:59] I really appreciate it. I think I've spoken to everyone but Gary, I suppose. I never got a chance to speak to Gary Young. But in terms of the, I guess, whatever, core or original lineup, yeah, I've talked to all of them at some points in my life. And I hope to talk to them again.

Track 3:

[24:20] Yeah, I do adore them. So it's, yeah. You can tell. You can really tell. And we should have said this off the top, but Viche is, Creative Control is a podcast, if you haven't listened to it, you should listen to it. If you like music, if you're maybe a bit obsessive about music, Viche does a really phenomenal job of, you know, conversations with famous people. People uh for people who listen to this show you might want to start with some of the david berman stuff because it's it's pretty spectacular and uh and then work your way through the pavement but it's all it's all good from the stuff that i've heard for sure well thank you for the kind words and for saying so yeah i uh i do love doing the show and uh it has uh you know it's granted me access and insight, uh, to, and from people I really, truly admire and adore. And, uh, yeah, I marvel at, uh, what I've been able to, uh, accomplish and get away with, uh, it is, it is, I don't really understand it, but certain people like Bob and others, uh, uh, have a fondness for me and return to the show and all that sort of stuff. And, uh, so yeah, it means a lot. Thanks for saying that. No, no, I should have said it off the top. but uh what do you say we talk about the the song this week song number 18 let's do it okay we'll be back right after this hey.

Track 1:

[25:48] This is bob mistanovich from pavement uh thanks for listening and now on with a countdown 18.

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[29:27] So today we're talking all about song number 18 from the masterpiece Wowie Zowie. It's the absolutely gorgeous Father to a Sister of Thought. Vish, what are your initial thoughts about this song? Well, you know, I was so happy that we landed on this as a song to talk about because I do love Wowie Zowie. I have a sense memory of picking it up when it came out. I think the day it came out. um and um obviously a strange sort of a strange record uh an eclectic record uh and this is interesting it's a really fascinating song because in some ways it's super accessible uh musically it leans with the pedal steel and some of the other moves it leans towards country music.

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[30:18] I will say, as I was pondering it, I mean, I know we are in a vacuum here of people who love Pavement and who love Stephen Malcomus, but as I was listening to this in preparation for our chat, I'm like, Malcomus is like an underrated everything. I really feel that way. And in particular, I think he's a remarkable singer. And, you know.

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[30:51] And this song, I think, exemplifies that. He makes super fascinating choices with his phrasing, I think, and just the notes he's going to go for on words. Like, I don't know how to put it. I'm not super adept at maybe talking about music on that level. But it's just very dynamic, the way he shoots his voice up and sort of speaks, sings one line.

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[31:17] And I think aside from missing his sort of grittiness, he also is a great screamer, great yeller. He really is. Like Paul McCartney level dynamic range, I think, with Steven when he wants to. Like he can sing. I don't know if that resonates with you. Like McCartney, to me, can sing anything. He can sing a ballad. He can sing like a Little Richard Rocker and sound like a punk. Like it's bonkers, that guy's vocal range. And I think Malcomus is in that, totally in that vein. So he's not yelling on this song but i think if anyone is interested like this song is a perfect showcase for what he can do as a vocalist and before i go much further jd does that resonate with you it certainly does i when i think of this song you know the word i used right off the bat was gorgeous uh and it's gorgeous in a number of ways the vocal the melody uh like his ability as a songwriter. I don't know how much of the arranging he did, or if it was Easley who said, let's use this pedal steel.

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[32:25] But nevertheless, it just works so well with the timbre of his voice. And it all comes together in a really lovely ball.

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[32:36] Yeah, and I think the little contrarian aspect to, or I don't know how to describe it, this little element of, yeah, it's a little contrary, I think, you know, I don't think I'm saying anything untoward where there's an element of self-sabotage sometimes in the pavement realm where everything's going fine, and then all of a sudden, let's pull the plug and do something wild and nuts or crazy, you know what I mean? And then yeah so this song has this really jaunty country vibe and then it ends with this like, minimalist noise rock stomp damn yeah yeah yeah like it gets it suddenly becomes a little more punk after the sort of so it's kind of this and it's all part of this it's that end it has nothing to do with anything else we've heard no instrumentally nothing but it works like it works so perfectly and i think it's a way of being like all right i think i think we're getting a little saccharin here it's too gentle or something let's end a little more raucous and uh so to me i hadn't really pondered it as such before but between malchumus i think singing his ass off and and really showing his range uh the band also ends up playing very dynamically and really beautifully and and also grit like as i say there's some grit towards the end so in a weird way.

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[34:03] And again i hadn't thought of it like this was a single as i recall um like there was a video for it and whatnot and they're all dressed up in like country western garb and all these sorts of things, but uh no it's a nice exemplification like this is a pretty good gateway in the pavement if you were like yeah listen to this song again you never heard of this band try this song just try it it's got humor it's enigmatic lyrically the arrangement itself is beautiful but funny uh yeah i i really think uh 18 this should be in the top five it's really wonderful wow yeah i would have it in my top 10 yeah i know you top 10 sure i don't know what these ratings mean i don't believe in ratings and awards but it's water cooler talk no it's i'm just saying as i think about it more first of all uh anyone out there listening uh once i dig into a topic i get a little excitable. So, uh, you can make the argument like, what about these other 10 songs? And I'd be like, yeah, yeah, those are also great. But this, this to me, I think, as I say, it's got a nice balance of earnestness, irreverence, beautiful singing, wonderful playing. Uh, yeah, I just think all across the board, it's beautiful. Yeah. Uh, well said.

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[35:20] When you think back to buying Wowie Zowie, you said you got it on the day it came out. First of all, that's very cool.

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[35:29] And second of all, I wonder, just to go on a tangent for a moment.

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[35:34] I wonder if your penchant for B-sides helped you with that record. Because it's almost constructed to me where there's like a song and then more of a b-side song than a song than more of a b-side song uh you know i'm thinking like brink's job and and and stuff like that um yeah you know so that that would have really helped but what were you thinking the first time and this is asking you to really stretch your brain i apologize but what were you thinking the first time you heard this song on this wicked roller coaster ride of a record you know what it's i know this song gets come or rather the album why always how he gets compared a lot to the white album sure by the beatles um who are from liverpool uh and are no longer around but they were uh that album was um i think it's rightly regarded as this uh odd pastiche niche of sounds and ideas and somehow it it only coheres because contextually they made it cohere like it doesn't really make a ton of sense as an album but it's one of those albums where like i couldn't tell you what the best song on it is because i almost view it conceptually as a whole Oh, wow. Wow. So, there's some of it, like, you can, there are singles from it and whatnot.

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[37:01] But I have a weird, this is more about me, I suppose, JD, than maybe most people, but like, I'm an albums person. So, when an artist or a band puts out an album, I assume, rightly or wrongly, in some cases it's not the case, but I assume it's a unified statement that they're making of a time, of.

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[37:25] Rolling Stones, certain bands, you'll be like, yeah, this album is actually like odds and sods from the previous couple of albums that they just reworked or whatever, revisited. Um, and they still count as albums, you know, certainly Stones in the seventies, you can make that argument. There's a few records where, yeah, like just what I'm describing, it's an album, but it's really like leftovers from some ideas they had. Um, I would put Wowie Zowie in that white album category of like, it's a whole thing. Like, the way it's sequenced, the way songs blend together.

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[38:04] As soon as you hear an artist do that, where the songs kind of barely, there's barely any air between them. Right. That's a sequencing choice. That's a mastering choice. That's all sorts of choices they're making. but there's then tends to be this coherence between them this isn't the case all across wowie zowie but there are songs as you know where it's just the next one just starts you're just right into another song um so it becomes a sort of sweet like thing all this to say uh i might be stalling to answer your question because i haven't listened to the whole album in some time this is going to prompt me to i listened to this song on its own and i will say it was a bit weird.

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[38:48] To hear it on its own because i don't listen to pavement sorry as i've tried to just maybe exemplify i generally don't listen to um bands i got a friend pointed out to me a few years ago he was we were in a band together and he said yeah you once said you don't like greatest hits compilations i said i said that said yeah we were driving we were listening to like acdc or something and you were just it came up in conversation and you said you don't like greatest hits compilations because the context of the music is all out of order and i said right that makes sense to me yeah you're i said yeah okay i don't remember saying that sometimes i say things and i don't remember that i said them and i said oh yeah well i mean i said i said it and it stuck with him like he said yeah i've started to listen that way now because you're right like the context of an album is so important to it so when you asked me to be on the show and and suggested uh you know that we were going to talk about this particular song i just listened to it on its own.

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[39:52] Totally weird. Totally weird to hear it out of the album context. So I think going back to my sense memory, I don't know. I mean, it starts with We Dance, which is weird. And then you're right. Some of the songs seem, I mean, to some people, they would seem like half finished ideas. That's right. Right. Or just like little jabs of things, you know. So you're absolutely right too, like Serpentine Pad, Brink's Job, those sound like they could be B-sides, but I would argue that the pavement B-sides are never really, they don't feel like throwaways to me. I agree. Sometimes they're a little looser and more fun, like things happen and that you wouldn't really hear. No I don't even you know what I'm just going to retract that I think they are all fully.

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[40:48] Realized songs that stand on their own but yeah Wowie Zowie I suppose might have been the first sort of inkling that this band could do anything and they weren't afraid to try anything, I'm sure some people were disappointed after Crooked Rain Crooked Rain to hear this, band be a little more punk but also as we're talking about a song that like I say who knows I don't know I I've not really thought about this in a long time but I'm sure making the construction of wowie zowie and the sequencing was potentially a reaction to how much success and how they broke through with crooked rain.

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[41:34] Yeah, I can get behind that thought because, I mean, it's almost outlined in Cut Your Hair, right? Yeah. That's sort of the blueprint for Wowie Zowie in a way. Yeah, like not deliberately self-sabotaging themselves, but being like, we're maybe a little too big. Let's do something a little less accessible. Like, let's do something a little more. I just want to be clear. I think it's brilliant. I don't find it confusing. But if you got into Cut Your Hair or Gold Sounds or got into that band that you saw freak out on The Tonight Show, you know... And then listen to Pueblo. Yeah, yeah. I think you're kind of like... Yeah. You would just be like, as a band, I doubt it was even conscious, but maybe it was. Maybe we should do something that's a little more like wild. And if that was the case, I'm not sure it was, I'm sure there's literature and I should have maybe revisited some of the liner notes and reissues and things to read about where their mindset was at. But, you know, even describing father to a sister of thought, it has that mix of totally, totally accessible. I could play this for my country music loving grandfather, but then it ends with like, Hey, grandpa, we're still kind of a punk band. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

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[43:02] Oh, that's great. Going back to the theory of potentially sabotaging themselves, which I'm with you, I don't think they did it on purpose.

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[43:13] I almost think it's like a sound and style change. You're right, Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain was so accessible, and it had a familiar sound. It had sort of a California classic rock kind of vibe to it. It crooked rain is i will interject only to say that i think crooked rain is also super weird.

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[43:35] It is it helped them break through but it is a weird album like it starts weird it has like a full studio sound like it sounds like i know that was made in a bit of a patchwork as well but like it sounds more like a studio record um sure they went they went to a place that that it wasn't going to be noisy and hissy and ambient even though it has elements of that like it has a warmth to it but it's a weird and wildly arranged album too but this is even well coming off a slant coming off a slanted though it seems it just seems more you know readily available i suppose to to a wider birth of people yeah but what i was going to say is it almost reminds me of what sm did when he went solo that first record is so accessible and so poppy and so hooky and so earwormy it's amazing and then he did piglib after that which i fucking adore but it's so off the wall compared to the self-titled debut yeah and if we're viewing malcolm as you know uh obviously obviously the main driver of of their songs then yeah it's it's his whims and it's his.

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[44:50] His notions for a batch of songs like you know i think bright in the corners is uh on some level it's the cleanest sounding pavement album but it's also the most esoteric and and you know i the songs sprawl and they're all over the place as well but it's also somehow more coherent and contained than wowie zowie like but but the songs stretch out that's their what did we talk about with somebody recently uh maybe it was with the pavement guys uh grateful dead type stuff yeah sure yeah like it it has a it's it's a little more zen it's less frenetic even though the imagery and whatnot is pretty intense and some of the arrangements are too so yeah i think it's just modes again this goes back to my argument i love albums i love knowing that we're hearing where a band was at, at that given time. Uh, and, and that, that batch of songs, however, like wowie zowie, however disparate the songs might be from one another, that's what they were into. Like, that's what was going on with them at the time, whether it had anything to do with external considerations or perceptions about who they were, uh, how successful they wanted to be. Like Like, that might just be all bullshit I'm making up. It could just be that's just what he had, what Malcomus and what the band had going.

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[46:18] And this is it. You know, why waste it? This is, it's all over the place. Let's put it out as one thing. The next album, a little, like, I think it's, it's fair to say, uh, Bright in the Corners. Well, you know, maybe it's not fair to say, I'll ask you. Bright in the Corners, probably safe to say a more coherent sounding album than Why We Sowie. Absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's a more album-y album. Right. In a sense. But I also think Slanton and Enchanted all sounds like it's from the same expression, too. Sure, I guess I mean album to album. I just love the way it opens. There's a middle, and then there's an end. There's a finite end with Finn. Yeah yeah well i mean maybe i don't know like we we mentioned lollapalooza uh there was something going on in the in the moment in the cultural moment where you it was really cool to be an open-ended music listener it was really cool to be like yes we're playing with a folk musician we're playing with shanae o'connor and cypress hill on the same day bonkers and the jesus lizard like on some level that is a culture saying everyone is welcome every sound has merit.

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[47:34] We're sick of the orthodoxies we're sick of there being camps um and so maybe wowie zowie reflects that too uh on a musical level it can be noise damaged it can be a beautiful if strange folk song, it can be a country song, it can be a goddamn screamer where Malcolm clearly loses his voice you know, on Half a Canyon or whatever. Like, it's.

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[48:01] Yeah, as we speak of it, I love that album. And like I say, though, I'm having trouble decontextualizing this song from the whole. Right. And that's more about me. But if we really dial into it, when I say this is a good exemplification of Pavement as a whole, maybe it's a good exemplification of Wowie Zowie as a whole. It has that beauty and thoughtful lyricism where you're like, what's he talking about? What's going on? this is really interesting imagery. Is he talking about Corpus Christi, Texas? Or is he talking about Corpus Christi, the kind of event? Like, I remember just thinking right away, why is he singing about Texas? Like, I have that sense memory. And I have this song and some, I'm just a man. Like, I have just little bits of lyrics that are just always with me that I just hum to myself. And yeah, I, this is one of those songs where I just have sort of mindlessly sung it out loud to myself as i'm sort of tooling around my my life you know i don't know if you have that where you just have these lyrical lyrical fragments but this is definitely one of those songs.

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[49:08] And uh i think um yeah it exemplifies both the band and the album in a really fascinating way for me cool well is there anything you want to say uh more about father to a sister of thought or, well you know i'm a lyrics guy and we didn't uh have a chance to get too far into it but i also i know that i mean it's on the surface it seems to be about spirituality and uh people's relationships to that but with malcolm is also you never really know um on some level i think he's spoken about this song and whatnot but um no i don't know all i'll say is i marvel at the guy and i don't think uh he's one of these people i don't think we marvel at enough as a guitar player as a musician as a as a lyricist and particularly on this song as a singer and i hope uh this isn't uh some people don't find this to be a hyperbole but you know i think we take him for granted as He's a vocalist, and this is a great example of what he can do.

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[50:15] Agreed. Well, Vish, it's been dynamite to talk to you today. We went off on a few different directions, and I'm glad we got to do that. Do you want to talk a little bit more about you and the podcast? And I want to say right off the bat that I said it earlier, Creative Control, it's with K's, Creative Control. So if you're searching for it on the Google, you're going to want to spell it correctly. Correctly well thank you thank visha style of correctly well i will uh immediately say that this is a reference to a hot snake song of the same name creative control um so that's why i didn't make up the case thing and now there's like a fashion company called creative control and i think someone like fashions themselves a rapper and they call themselves creative control but they kind of show up and they don't show up i don't know what's going on but anyway yeah that's my show i mean on the internet they'll be like tweeting ramp like rabidly and then they just disappear. And then I don't know what's going on. Anyway. Yeah. Nothing to do. I, Hey, I copped the name from a band I like, so I can't really complain. Complain spelled with a K by the way.

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[51:23] So, uh, yeah, I have this podcast and as we're speaking, uh, you know, it's, it's still going, uh, and it's more important to me than ever because, uh, it is now my main, job at the moment as maybe by October it won't be, but, um.

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[51:41] Yeah, so all I can say is if you support the work of people like me and JD and want to support podcasters, crowdfunding, I don't know about you, JD, and we don't have to talk too much shop, but the advertising revenue is very minimal and it's honestly a little gross. No offense to your sponsors.

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[52:01] I'd rather just not have it. Yeah, I'd rather not have it. But yeah, the crowdfunding and the Patreon that I have is particularly important to me at the moment. So I have different incentives and different tiers and all that kind of stuff, like pay tiers, and it's flexible and monthly and all that kind of stuff. So sorry to make this about the money. We've already talked about some of the content or whatever, like the people I talked to. Yeah, I'm proud of it. It seems to be relentless. It's never going to stop unless I do and stop making it. That sounded morbid. uh by the way if i die the show will likely die too i i just want to be clear about that but no i i love doing the show it's afforded me um some wonderful experiences and both in the conversations and then just from people like you jd reaching out wanting to talk i mean it means a lot to me so thank you for giving me a time to some time to plug and thank you for having me on this wonderful show of yours and for the the lovely conversation it means a lot yeah for me Me too. Thank you so much. All right, everybody, that's what we've got today. So be cool. Make sure you're safe and wash your goddamn hands.

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[53:15] Thanks for listening to Meeting Malcolmists, a pavement podcast where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you. If you've got questions or concerns, please shoot me an email. JD at MeetingMalcolmists.com. You.

We're taking a brief break from counting down the Top 50 Pavement songs this week. Instead, we offer you PodList IV.V thanks for all of submissions and a special hat tip to Tim from Portland for coming up with the track listing,

Track Listing:

Shady Lane - Lonely Penguin

Painted Soldiers - Malkralph

Passat Dream - CARP Recordings

Zurich is Stained - Sam Lambson

Perfect Depth - Scouting for Cuppas

Shoot the Singer - Copeto

Haunt you Down

Heaven is a Truck - Dark Shandy

Shady Lane - Strong Computer

Summer Babe - Forearms

Type Slowly - Marchica

My Radio - Negative Players

Box Elder - Christopher Catin

Fin - S.W.

jD is back with another track from the Shady Lane EP, Cherry Area.

jD is back after taking a week off to recuperate from Fin! Join him this week as he catches up on things and listens to Slowly Typed. 

jD is back with his take on the Brighten the Corners album-closing track, Fin. 

jD is back at it discussing life, reading emails, and jamming out to Starlings of the Slipstream. 

jD is back and he is digging on the Spiral jam, Passat Dream.

jD is back and he is making a wish.

It's 2021 and jD is FINALLY back. Check out today's episode where he waxes on about his love for Blue Hawaiian.