Guest Profile: Graig Weiss

Graig Weiss brings over 20 years of leadership experience and a people-first mindset that has shaped everything from public schools to personalized service calls. Before entering the window treatment industry, he led Foundation Academies in Trenton, taught in the South Bronx and the Dominican Republic, founded a school in Punta Cana, and consulted with Cambridge Associates.
Now, he’s the hands-on owner and operator of Bloomin’ Blinds of BuxMont, managing everything from sales consultations to installations — bringing the same passion and impact to home transformations as he once did to education. Under his leadership, Bloomin’ Blinds of BuxMont was named 2024 Franchise Owner of the Year, earned top national sales awards, and became one of the brand’s highest-performing and most recognized franchises.
With a degree in Finance and Accounting from the University of Pittsburgh, two master’s degrees, and a life full of family, travel, and skiing, Graig blends heart, hustle, and hands-on leadership.

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TRANSCRIPT

Will Hanke (00:00)
Welcome back to Marketing Panes the podcast where we dive into real marketing strategies, stories, and shifts happening in the window treatment and awning world. The guest joining us today brings over 20 years of leadership experience and a people first mindset that has shaped everything from public schools to personalized service calls. Before diving into the world of blinds, he led foundation academies in Trenton.

taught in the South Bronx and Dominican Republic, founded a school in Punta Cana, and consulted with Cambridge Associates. Now he’s the hands-on owner and operator of Bloomin’ Blinds of Buxmont, where he manages everything from sales consultations to installations, bringing the same passion and impact to home transformations as he once did to education.

Under his leadership, Bloomin’ Blinds of Buxmont was named the 2025 Franchise Owner of the Year, earned top national sales awards across multiple categories, and became one of the brand’s highest performing and most recognized franchises. With two master’s degrees from the University of Pittsburgh and a life full of family, travel, and skiing, he’s a guy who blends heart, hustle, and hands-on leadership. Welcome to the show, Graig Weiss

Graig Weiss (01:23)
All right, thank you so much. Great to be here.

Will Hanke (01:25)
Yeah, I appreciate it. So quick disclaimer before we just jump into the questions, Graig is a client of ours and has been probably for two years or so now. So we’ve been doing his marketing and just wanted to clear the air there and make sure everybody knew about that before we started. All right, so Graig, thanks for being on the show. Why don’t you give me the 10,000 foot view of what you’ve got going on currently with the business.

Graig Weiss (01:51)
Yeah, so as Will said, know, Bloomin’ Blinds, Buxmont, we’re up in the suburbs of Philadelphia, just outside of Philadelphia. We cover most, pretty much anywhere within an hour of where I live. Mobile-based business, Bloomin’ Blinds is a franchise system, like a lot of others.

and mobile base, mobile showroom. We go out to the customers, we can do consultations in their home and install high-end window treatments.

Will Hanke (02:26)
Awesome. And you’re located in Pennsylvania.

Graig Weiss (02:29)
Yes, just outside Philadelphia and in Pennsylvania, we also get over a little bit into New Jersey, over into the Princeton area of New Jersey, but mainly the surrounding suburbs of Philadelphia.

Will Hanke (02:41)
Awesome, awesome. So what drew you to the window treatment business and what drew you to Bloomin’ Blinds in particular?

Graig Weiss (02:49)
Yeah, so it’s a great question. If you would have told me five years ago that I’d be doing window treatments, I would have never believed you. I’m a former school administrator. I was running a charter school in Trenton, New Jersey. And after the pandemic, I knew I just needed to do something a little different. I needed to get away from school administration and started researching franchises. And there were a lot of things that I liked about Bloomin’ Blinds and window treatments in general.

And that was about three years ago and took the leap and have been growing it ever since. And I think the thing that surprised me most about it is how much I actually enjoy it. Originally it was going to be a side business for me and I was going to hire somebody just to kind of run it. And at the encouragement of the brothers that own Bloomin’ Blinds they were like, you got to get in the van, you got to learn the business. And I was very reluctant, got in the van and then decided, you know what, this is great. You get out there and meet some wonderful people.

You know, you make your own schedule. There’s a sense of accomplishment when you do projects and whatnot. And so it’s been a fun ride and we’re continuing to grow it.

Will Hanke (04:00)
That’s awesome. Now, coming from the education side, how has that background influenced how you’re running your business right now?

Graig Weiss (04:08)
Yeah, it’s, you know, lot of it, you know, kind of carries over. mean, one of the things that I would say is like, it’s all people first. You know, having run an organization, you’re always focused on the people and our customers are no different. We’re focused on what they need and listening to them and their needs and really delivering a service and a product that are really second to none. That’s the goal overall.

Will Hanke (04:35)
How do you think customers see Bloomin’ Blinds in your area and how do you want them to see it?

Graig Weiss (04:42)
Yeah, I mean, I guess the first thing is we want them to see it because, you know, I mean, that’s that’s marketing, getting getting them out there. And it starts with the pink shirts and the pink vans and, ⁓ you know, really just getting that brand recognition out there. ⁓ I think window treatments overall is it’s ⁓ it’s not it’s not an industry that’s necessarily that visible. I know before I got into the the industry, the only place is I kind of.

thought of were like, know, blinds.com and, you know, maybe blinds to go because they have their big, you know, red buildings. And maybe walk down an aisle at Home Depot. There are a lot of other, you know, great vendors out there. And so I think that’s that’s first and foremost. But I think, you know, Bloom Blinds in particular, I always try to put myself in the customer’s shoes and what what would I want as a potential customer?

And like really just treating our customers that way, showing up on time, doing what we’re say we’re gonna do, delivering a perfect product, non pushy sales, all those things I think contribute to ⁓ what we’re trying to convey to all of our customers.

Will Hanke (05:58)
Cool, thank you for that. So I want to talk a little bit about customer experience since we’re kind of on that train. ⁓ What does it actually look like in your business beyond even the install?

Graig Weiss (06:11)
Yeah, so I mean, you know, I would start with first that like 95 % of the customers that we have are really great people. And that’s one of the things I love about this business overall. You get out there and you meet some really great people that would probably have never otherwise encountered in our lives. you know, so the experience is actually, it comes naturally. Like we don’t have to fake it.

You you’re going out there, you’re listening to customers, listening to…

you know, what their needs are, what are they trying to accomplish? Because window treatments should be both beautiful and functional. And so we’re really trying to listen for and ask the right questions as far as what do they need and want their home to, what do they want their home to look like and what do they want their window treatments to be able to do?

And then it’s, you know, basically steering them in the direction and exploring different options.

I’m not a believer, we don’t have favorite window treatments. They all have their pros and cons and that’s really what we’re trying to go through and really trying to ⁓ just match up what a customer wants and what’s gonna work best for them.

Will Hanke (07:23)
I love that I actually had that experience a month or two ago. We had a company come out to do ours and my wife was thinking of Roman Shades and after having a great conversation and getting some consultation, we ended up with Shutter. So totally different than what we thought we wanted. But that consultation piece is really huge.

Graig Weiss (07:44)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, we find that often. you know, sometimes people call away something that they think they, you know, they saw on Pinterest that they think is going to work really well. And maybe it does and maybe it doesn’t. And so we’re just kind of like laying out the pros and cons in order to make sure that they’re happy customers.

Will Hanke (07:46)
Yeah, that’s.

Yeah, definitely makes for a better experience. Can you tell me about a time when some sort of customer interaction turned into a great marketing win?

Graig Weiss (08:12)
Yeah, so we often do,

I one of the things that’s really unique about Bloomin’ Blinds is we do repairs as well. And we do repairs not because it’s the highest, you know, profit margins or, you know, anything like that. We do it as a courtesy to the customer because if you have, let’s say you have a room filled with like eight window treatments and one of them needs to be fixed, you don’t necessarily want to buy eight new window treatments.

But oftentimes providing that service, you know, getting into the home and, sometimes fixing,

some of the window treatments down the road will often lead to ⁓ either referrals, ⁓ which are always appreciated, ⁓ as well as sometimes they’ll come back a year later and say, actually, now I want to replace them or something along those lines. And that just starts with, again, that non-pushy, pushy approach. We’re coming out there and we’re not going to be pushy. We’re not going to upsell. We’re going to deliver services that we know you’re going to be happy with.

Will Hanke (09:09)
Yeah, I’m a huge fan of playing the long game.

I think, you know, being patient and understanding that investing in these repairs, those types of things for you are going to pay dividends down the road.

Graig Weiss (09:22)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Will Hanke (09:23)
Yeah. How do you build these kind of like wow moments in without breaking the bank, doing just, you know, in a repair where you’re making a hundred, 150 bucks or something like that ⁓ versus obviously your time that you spent to do that as well. How do you kind of build that in?

Graig Weiss (09:41)
Yeah, I think it’s like you just said, it’s playing the long game. My philosophy the first year was like, if we make no money this year, it’s OK. It’s building that customer base, building that referral program, meeting those relationships, and then results will come. And so that’s really in our philosophy and all of it. mean, we’ll do everything from a small repair all the way up to high-end motorization.

jobs as much as $45,000 in one home. So we’ll do everything in between because that small job, might be the van is parked right in front of the house and the neighbor across the street is in the market for window treatments or that customer’s relative needs window treatments. So we’re happy to service all customers even when it’s seemingly in the moment where they’re not high ticket items.

Will Hanke (10:33)
I love the van idea, just the fact that that is doing work for you while you’re in a home, something like that. And then of course you got the whole Joneses thing going on, right? What’s going on over there?

Graig Weiss (10:45)
Yeah, for sure,

for sure. And the van is hard to miss. I mean, it’s white and hot pink. So it’s a moving billboard, for sure.

Will Hanke (10:54)
Yeah, yeah. How do you balance being part of that national brand, but keeping your message authentic and local at the same time?

Graig Weiss (11:03)
Yeah, mean, it’s a combination of both. mean, in the Northeast, Bloomin Blinds is not as well known as like, you know, in the South and some of those different areas. So it is about getting the word out there. I mean, at the end of the day, even though we’re a franchise system, we’re still family-owned business. ⁓ You know, my wife and I are 100 % owners in the company. ⁓ It’s one of the things I like about Bloomin Blinds. We don’t push any one product or any one manufacturer in particular.

We carry four or five manufacturers and so really looking for the products that offer the best value to our customers. So if a customer is looking for a specific name brand, we’re happy to pull those out. Otherwise, we’ll pull different manufacturers out based on our experience and the value that they bring. But it’s always putting that local touch on it.

Everybody that works in our market is local and community based. And so we really are that family owned business even though we’re part of that larger franchise.

Will Hanke (12:08)
Yeah. Now with you being in the Northeast, are there any brand decisions that you think work especially well in your area?

Graig Weiss (12:16)
⁓ Not really in particular. mean obviously, you know, we recently started offering Hunter Douglas.

Hunter Douglas is, you know, probably one of the most known window treatment products out there. So we were happy to add that to our repertoire and, you know, be able to offer that.

But a lot of it is just, again, based on the products. We kind of have our favorites that we kind of steer in the direction depending on the product. So if it’s shutters and faux wood, it might be one manufacturer. If it’s cellular honeycomb shades, it might be another manufacturer. Just on our experience with those various products. And again, that’s one of the things I love about.

know, Bloomin’ Blinds is that they don’t push one thing over the other. They’re really open to, you know, it’s your franchise. You decide what you are going to sell and work with on an ongoing basis.

Will Hanke (13:07)
I know that you’ve been expanding and really kind of building out your area. So I’d like to talk a couple of questions about that. ⁓ What resources or structures helped you feel confident in growing your location and expanding?

Graig Weiss (13:23)
Yeah, I mean really, as far as resources go, it’s just, know, it’s really about people. I mean, this is really very, very much a people business and having the right partners in place like Window Treatment Marketing Pros, a little commercial there. But, you know, that’s a big piece to expanding, you know, just getting the word out there about the services that we provide and, you know, things like that. It’s…

I don’t want say it’s happened completely organically because there’s a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes, but this isn’t coupons or things like that that helps us expand. It’s reputation, making sure that that reputation is building online and things like that. As far as confidence go, a lot of it’s experience. You do things and the more that you do them, you get more more comfortable with both…

products and things that you’re installing in homes and knowing what’s going to work and what’s not going to work. ⁓ But again, you know, finding those vendors and those installers that are really going to knock it out of the park and, you know, deliver that perfection that we’re after. That’s really the key. And so it’s been somewhat, you know, slow and methodical. I mean, in some respects it’s been fast, but in some respects, you know, it hasn’t happened overnight. There hasn’t been a light switch that went off.

with the expansion, just, you know, it’s a snowball effect.

Will Hanke (14:45)
Yeah. Are there any common traps that you see from business owners that try to scale up their brand presence maybe a little bit too fast?

Graig Weiss (14:54)
Yeah, I would say again, it kind of comes back to people. mean, you know, we’re really particular in the people that work with us and, you we have high expectations and we need that to deliver. And I think that’s what our customers expect. I know that’s what I would want from, you know, from a vendor for them to come in and deliver on the promises that they’ve said and make sure that everything is perfect. I mean, our customers are paying for perfection and that’s what we’re trying to deliver every single time.

Will Hanke (15:22)
That’s awesome. So Bloomin’ Blinds has earned some strong recognition lately. And you yourself has as well. A couple different things that has gone on. You won 2024 franchise owner of the year. That’s pretty awesome. 2024 top overall sales for Ulta. 2000 top sales for Cellular Shades, Ulta again. Top product sales for Bloomin Blinds Cellular Shades and Soft Treatments.

Graig Weiss (15:37)
Yeah.

Will Hanke (15:52)
With all these awards, obviously they build trust, right, with your brand. ⁓ How is that for internal motivation?

Graig Weiss (16:04)
I would just say it’s incredibly gratifying. obviously when you start a business, as anyone who’s ever started a business, it’s a very nerve wracking experience and it’s more a mental game than anything else. When you start a business, I know for the first six months I pretty much woke up every day and be like, this the right decision? Am I making the right moves and things like that. Eventually you start to gain traction and that confidence builds and things like that.

But yeah, I I gave up a steady job with benefits and a pension and sort of took this leap of faith. And so when we got that award, was sort of like that moment where like, wow, we actually made this work and we can actually make a living out of it. So that was a really nice moment and some nice recognition for us.

Will Hanke (16:58)
Yeah, as I mentioned, great trust factor. Just having those types of awards from a consumer standpoint, these guys must be the best if they’re winning awards, right? ⁓ That’s always great. I think as entrepreneurs, we’re more likely to take crazy risks than maybe the average person would, ⁓ hoping that it pays off down the road.

Graig Weiss (17:22)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that was, you know, when I got into this, I was like, I’m just going to bet on myself on this one. You know, used, I used retirement money and it’s like, well, I can either put it in the stock market and let it ride or we can bet on ourselves. And, and, you know, you take that again, it’s a risk, but, you know, I think, you know, that entrepreneur, an entrepreneurial mindset is that now that, now that we’ve done it once, we can do it again, you know, so, you know, we continue to take those little risks and.

continue to the business.

Will Hanke (17:52)
Yeah, it’s highly motivating too if you’re that type of personality. My coach always says you eat what you kill, right? You got to get out there and make it happen or you can’t complain about it. Yeah, cool. So I know that you started in just a small service area. We kind of talked about your expansion. What was the mindset or what led you to wanting to start the expansion?

Graig Weiss (18:02)
Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Yeah, so it’s like really just being opportunistic. You know, I wasn’t really looking necessarily to expand. There was another Bloomin’ Blinds colleague that he had, he had several different businesses that he was running. He called me up at the end of last year and he said, hey, you interested in buying, you know, my territories? And so, you know, no matter what the case, I’m going to have the conversation. And one thing led to another. And we were able to, you know, buy those territories and, know,

you know, the plan is to continue to expand in a slow, deliberate way. So it’s really just being opportunistic and taking advantage of the opportunities that are presented. You just have to have your ears open and listening to them.

Will Hanke (19:01)
Yeah, I love that. ⁓ As you expand, how are you keeping the brand consistent as your physical area widens and you’ve got to juggle all these different things?

Graig Weiss (19:14)
Yeah, I mean, it’s definitely a challenge. I would even say that we’re not really, you know, we’re really not maximizing the new territories just yet. We’ve been really trying to build the team. And then once we have that team in place, then we can start to, you know, it opens up the capacity of, you know, of all of us to do a little bit more. And that’s when you can even do, you know, a little bit more marketing and, ⁓ you know, things like that to really maximize that area. So.

⁓ Even though we acquired the territories, it wasn’t day one that we hit the gas pedal on marketing out there because we just didn’t, you again, the opportunity arose. We took advantage of the opportunity, ⁓ but we need to build the team out to like really capitalize and make the most of it.

Will Hanke (19:57)
Yeah, you want to grow with your business, right? You don’t want to suddenly scale like crazy and then have to figure out how to make it work and start getting poor reviews. A lot of things could happen that way.

Yeah, yeah.

Graig Weiss (20:07)
That’s right. That’s right.

Will Hanke (20:11)
Was there a turning point for you when you realized like we’re ready to grow and your ear became more receptive to these opportunities?

Graig Weiss (20:22)
I don’t think so. I don’t think it was like one ⁓ catalyst that said that. mean, obviously, you kind of spoke earlier about the entrepreneurial mindset and like, you know, how as business owners,

in some ways it’s never enough. So you always want to be, know, once we reach a certain amount in sales, we want to be taking that next step and that next step and that next step. And so it’s constantly having that desire to grow.

But also being realistic about what are the steps that I need to put in place in order to grow this thing responsibly?

And at times that’s a tough balance I mean there’s definitely been months where I’m working seven days a week and doing installs on weekends to kind of get caught up ⁓ as we sort of build the team ⁓ But ⁓ you know, it’s all worth it in the end because you know at the end of the day we’re doing this for our families and you know, that’s what’s the most important to us to us all really

Will Hanke (21:13)
Yeah, what is it? I think it was Laurie from Shark Tank says entrepreneurs will work 80 hours to avoid working 40.

Graig Weiss (21:20)
That’s so true. You know,

it’s funny you mention that. think about two or three months in, I looked over at my wife and I said, you know what the biggest thing that scares me about this potentially not working? And she says, financial failure? said, nope, having to go back to a nine to five.

Will Hanke (21:38)
Yeah, by far, by far.

Thank you so much for the questions. I want to jump into some maybe kind of fun questions, if that would be OK. Have you ever had a customer request that totally caught you off guard?

Graig Weiss (21:45)
Yeah, yeah.

totally caught me off guard. ⁓ I’ve had customers ask for things, know, again my philosophy is that if I wouldn’t do it in my own home, I’m not gonna do it in somebody else’s home. ⁓ There have been things that, I’ll never forget, a customer had like a window that was 20 feet in the air and they wanted to put a continuous cord loop ⁓ all the way down 20 feet in order to operate the shade and ⁓ kind of caught me off guard but I was like, as I thought about it, I’m like, no, I’m not gonna do that.

Because at the end of the day, that’s not how it’s supposed to function. ⁓ My name is on it. I just didn’t think it was a really good move. So I kind of try to steer them in a different direction. I’ve had some other cool requests. I had a customer who was like, we want this to be the focal point. We want you to do something here that’s totally like that nobody’s ever seen before. ⁓ And so that was kind of a fun project.

At the end of the day, we had designed something that was very ⁓ outlandish, and they kind scaled it back and decided maybe we don’t want one as outlandish. But for the most part, those are few and far between, but they’re fun when they happen.

Will Hanke (22:57)
you

that’s fun. That

was probably a great learning experience for you. Even just building it out and then them having to scale it back. Very cool. What is the best and worst business advice you’ve ever received?

Graig Weiss (23:09)
Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Yep, absolutely.

Ooh, that’s a good question. Best and worst business advice.

I don’t know. I don’t know the answer to that one. Nothing’s really coming to mind. it probably received a little bit of both, you know, in both regards, both good and bad advice. But I mean, that’s, you know, kind of goes back to, mean, one of the things that I’m constantly trying to do is talk to owners that are successful and beg, borrow and steal, you know, ideas from them. You know, that’s one of the benefits of being in a franchise system and the thing that I really value.

Will Hanke (23:37)
All right.

Graig Weiss (24:02)
is reaching out to the other owners and figure out what’s working for them and maybe what’s not working so well.

Will Hanke (24:08)
Yeah, on ⁓ the ⁓ project that you had where they said they wanted something really outlandish, have you ever come across a situation where you’re just not the right fit for the customer? And if so, how do you kind of handle that interaction?

Graig Weiss (24:27)
Yeah, mean, ⁓ it’s just being honest. I think people respect being really honest with what your capabilities are. mean, one of the areas that I would like to get into eventually is pergolas. We’re doing a lot more exterior screens. We’re starting to get into awnings a little bit more. But pergolas are just not something that I currently have the team to tackle. And so we’ve been asked about them, and that’s my response. If you talk to me in two years,

The answer might be yes. The answer right now is I just don’t have the team in place to execute a pergola. so, you know, and if I have, if I have partners that, you know, or recommendations, happy to provide those, you know, we do that in a lot of other areas. We often are in the home, we build that trust with customers and the customers are asking us for painters and, know, somebody to renovate their kitchen and, you know, things of that nature. And so happy to, you know, always provide.

those resources for other folks in the community who do an excellent job that have the standards that we do.

Will Hanke (25:34)
Yeah, there’s something definitely to be said about becoming a coach or a resource for a customer. ⁓ They really put quality into that and they consider you an expert, obviously. So that really kind of elevates you from just being a sales guy.

Graig Weiss (25:52)
Yep, yep, absolutely.

Will Hanke (25:54)
Love that. ⁓ Very good. Running a classroom and running a business, which one has more surprises?

Graig Weiss (26:03)
that’s easy. Definitely a classroom has more surprises. I’ve got stories. I’ve got stories.

Will Hanke (26:10)
Yeah, you don’t have to get into the stories.

⁓ But was it because of the age group? What was the big thing that was creating all those surprises for you?

Graig Weiss (26:21)
Uh, it’s, both it’s, you know, kids are kids, right. And kids are always going to be wires kids. And I know we all have stories that, you know, how we were when we were kids, but, uh, you know, kids are unique. And when you’re dealing with, mean, when I was running, uh, foundation academies in Trent, had 1200 kids. And so there was always those few kids that had those personalities that, you know, just kind of throw it, keep you on your toes, if you will. so, but I was also, when I was a teacher, I was also teaching middle school and.

school, you have to have a of unique sense of humor to appreciate the middle school sense of humor.

Will Hanke (26:57)
For sure. I bet along the way you learned a lot about leadership as well. Yeah.

Graig Weiss (27:01)
Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah.

Both learned it, you know, the hard way and, but that’s, I mean, it’s funny because like, you know, running a business is challenging, but it’s nothing like, you know, what I was doing before. That was just, you know, we had 1200 kids between parents and students and, you know, 150 staff and board members. There was just a whole lot to, you know, cut. At times you felt like a pinball and you were just kind of like…

Will Hanke (27:29)
you

Graig Weiss (27:29)
bouncing

between the different constituents and trying to keep things on the right track.

Will Hanke (27:35)
Yeah. Is there any one leadership lesson that’s really carried over in a big way for you?

Graig Weiss (27:41)
I think the biggest thing is humility. mean,

leadership will humble you quicker than anything. And I think that’s true in the business that we do.

I always tell customers, I can’t promise it’s going to be perfect. I’m going to try real hard because it’s going to cost me money if I don’t. there’s mistakes that we make. We mismeasure things and have to reorder things or things get damaged during shipping.

But I think the biggest thing is just that humility and being genuine with people and making things right in the long

And I think that that’s true in like any leadership position.

Will Hanke (28:20)
Yeah, smart advice. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. Let’s talk about the future. What are you most excited about in the next 6 to 12 months?

Graig Weiss (28:30)
Yeah, just continuing to grow things, continuing to learn new things, offer new products. As I said, we’re doing more more exterior work.

So exterior, the retractable zipper screens. We’re doing now retractable awnings. And who knows, like I said, in another year or two, maybe we’re doing percolas and things like that.

I just think the exterior space, we’re really seeing high demand for the exterior spaces and it just makes so much sense. mean, it can extend your living space in a very cost-effective way to do some of these projects.

Will Hanke (29:11)
I love that. I would say two years ago, maybe 10 % of our client base did exterior. And now that number is probably 35 to 40%. A lot more of the window treatment offerings are turning to exterior as well.

Graig Weiss (29:31)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the thing that I love about, you know, the motorized screens in particular is most people think of them to knock down the sun, which they do. But in the Northeast, what they can do is if you put infrared heaters inside your, you know, porch or what have you, ⁓ they actually retain the heat. And so now you’ve gone from a three, four month porch to a nine month porch.

just by adding those retractable screens and some heaters. ⁓ yeah, that’s my favorite thing about the screens.

Will Hanke (30:07)
I like that. That expands your square footage as far as livable square footage in the winter, especially. That’s fantastic. I like that. Where can people connect with you to learn more about Bloomin’ Blind’s Buxmot and your journey individually?

Graig Weiss (30:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Yeah, absolutely. So I’m pretty accessible. You can either email me at bucksco B-U-C-K-S-C-O @ bloomingblinds.com. Visit our website at bloominblindsbuxmont.com And ⁓ yeah, those are probably the two easiest ways, but I’m happy to connect with whoever and ⁓ see how we can share resources.

Will Hanke (30:51)
Yeah. Any awards that you’ve got your eyes on for next year?

Graig Weiss (30:57)
No, you know, I tend to think that those awards like happen organically. Again, really proud to, you know, have been honored to receive them. But we’re just going to continue to keep our head down, try to deliver exceptional services. And then, you know, maybe some of those awards will come up as a byproduct of our work.

Will Hanke (31:20)
Perfect answer. I love that. Keep your head down. Keep pushing forward, right? That’s awesome. Well, Graig, thank you so much for being on the show today. I really do appreciate it.

Graig Weiss (31:21)
That’s right.

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate you and your partnership in this journey.

Will Hanke (31:34)
Yeah.

Yeah, we’re excited for the future. We’re excited for your expansion. Obviously, ready to help it however we can. Awesome.

Well, big thanks to Graig Weiss for sharing his perspective on what it means to build something that truly reflects your values from the way you lead the team to how your brand shows up in the community. His journey is a reminder that strong businesses aren’t just built on sales, but on purpose, consistency, and connection.

If you’re thinking about how to align your marketing with your message, we hope this episode gave you somewhat of a

roadmap. Subscribe, share with a friend and we’ll catch you next time on Marketing Panes.

TRANSCRIPT

Will Hanke (00:00)
Welcome back to Marketing Panes the podcast where we dive into real marketing strategies, stories, and shifts happening in the window treatment and awning world. The guest joining us today brings over 20 years of leadership experience and a people first mindset that has shaped everything from public schools to personalized service calls. Before diving into the world of blinds, he led foundation academies in Trenton.

taught in the South Bronx and Dominican Republic, founded a school in Punta Cana, and consulted with Cambridge Associates. Now he’s the hands-on owner and operator of Bloomin’ Blinds of Buxmont, where he manages everything from sales consultations to installations, bringing the same passion and impact to home transformations as he once did to education.

Under his leadership, Bloomin’ Blinds of Buxmont was named the 2025 Franchise Owner of the Year, earned top national sales awards across multiple categories, and became one of the brand’s highest performing and most recognized franchises. With two master’s degrees from the University of Pittsburgh and a life full of family, travel, and skiing, he’s a guy who blends heart, hustle, and hands-on leadership. Welcome to the show, Graig Weiss

Graig Weiss (01:23)
All right, thank you so much. Great to be here.

Will Hanke (01:25)
Yeah, I appreciate it. So quick disclaimer before we just jump into the questions, Graig is a client of ours and has been probably for two years or so now. So we’ve been doing his marketing and just wanted to clear the air there and make sure everybody knew about that before we started. All right, so Graig, thanks for being on the show. Why don’t you give me the 10,000 foot view of what you’ve got going on currently with the business.

Graig Weiss (01:51)
Yeah, so as Will said, know, Bloomin’ Blinds, Buxmont, we’re up in the suburbs of Philadelphia, just outside of Philadelphia. We cover most, pretty much anywhere within an hour of where I live. Mobile-based business, Bloomin’ Blinds is a franchise system, like a lot of others.

and mobile base, mobile showroom. We go out to the customers, we can do consultations in their home and install high-end window treatments.

Will Hanke (02:26)
Awesome. And you’re located in Pennsylvania.

Graig Weiss (02:29)
Yes, just outside Philadelphia and in Pennsylvania, we also get over a little bit into New Jersey, over into the Princeton area of New Jersey, but mainly the surrounding suburbs of Philadelphia.

Will Hanke (02:41)
Awesome, awesome. So what drew you to the window treatment business and what drew you to Bloomin’ Blinds in particular?

Graig Weiss (02:49)
Yeah, so it’s a great question. If you would have told me five years ago that I’d be doing window treatments, I would have never believed you. I’m a former school administrator. I was running a charter school in Trenton, New Jersey. And after the pandemic, I knew I just needed to do something a little different. I needed to get away from school administration and started researching franchises. And there were a lot of things that I liked about Bloomin’ Blinds and window treatments in general.

And that was about three years ago and took the leap and have been growing it ever since. And I think the thing that surprised me most about it is how much I actually enjoy it. Originally it was going to be a side business for me and I was going to hire somebody just to kind of run it. And at the encouragement of the brothers that own Bloomin’ Blinds they were like, you got to get in the van, you got to learn the business. And I was very reluctant, got in the van and then decided, you know what, this is great. You get out there and meet some wonderful people.

You know, you make your own schedule. There’s a sense of accomplishment when you do projects and whatnot. And so it’s been a fun ride and we’re continuing to grow it.

Will Hanke (04:00)
That’s awesome. Now, coming from the education side, how has that background influenced how you’re running your business right now?

Graig Weiss (04:08)
Yeah, it’s, you know, lot of it, you know, kind of carries over. mean, one of the things that I would say is like, it’s all people first. You know, having run an organization, you’re always focused on the people and our customers are no different. We’re focused on what they need and listening to them and their needs and really delivering a service and a product that are really second to none. That’s the goal overall.

Will Hanke (04:35)
How do you think customers see Bloomin’ Blinds in your area and how do you want them to see it?

Graig Weiss (04:42)
Yeah, I mean, I guess the first thing is we want them to see it because, you know, I mean, that’s that’s marketing, getting getting them out there. And it starts with the pink shirts and the pink vans and, ⁓ you know, really just getting that brand recognition out there. ⁓ I think window treatments overall is it’s ⁓ it’s not it’s not an industry that’s necessarily that visible. I know before I got into the the industry, the only place is I kind of.

thought of were like, know, blinds.com and, you know, maybe blinds to go because they have their big, you know, red buildings. And maybe walk down an aisle at Home Depot. There are a lot of other, you know, great vendors out there. And so I think that’s that’s first and foremost. But I think, you know, Bloom Blinds in particular, I always try to put myself in the customer’s shoes and what what would I want as a potential customer?

And like really just treating our customers that way, showing up on time, doing what we’re say we’re gonna do, delivering a perfect product, non pushy sales, all those things I think contribute to ⁓ what we’re trying to convey to all of our customers.

Will Hanke (05:58)
Cool, thank you for that. So I want to talk a little bit about customer experience since we’re kind of on that train. ⁓ What does it actually look like in your business beyond even the install?

Graig Weiss (06:11)
Yeah, so I mean, you know, I would start with first that like 95 % of the customers that we have are really great people. And that’s one of the things I love about this business overall. You get out there and you meet some really great people that would probably have never otherwise encountered in our lives. you know, so the experience is actually, it comes naturally. Like we don’t have to fake it.

You you’re going out there, you’re listening to customers, listening to…

you know, what their needs are, what are they trying to accomplish? Because window treatments should be both beautiful and functional. And so we’re really trying to listen for and ask the right questions as far as what do they need and want their home to, what do they want their home to look like and what do they want their window treatments to be able to do?

And then it’s, you know, basically steering them in the direction and exploring different options.

I’m not a believer, we don’t have favorite window treatments. They all have their pros and cons and that’s really what we’re trying to go through and really trying to ⁓ just match up what a customer wants and what’s gonna work best for them.

Will Hanke (07:23)
I love that I actually had that experience a month or two ago. We had a company come out to do ours and my wife was thinking of Roman Shades and after having a great conversation and getting some consultation, we ended up with Shutter. So totally different than what we thought we wanted. But that consultation piece is really huge.

Graig Weiss (07:44)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, we find that often. you know, sometimes people call away something that they think they, you know, they saw on Pinterest that they think is going to work really well. And maybe it does and maybe it doesn’t. And so we’re just kind of like laying out the pros and cons in order to make sure that they’re happy customers.

Will Hanke (07:46)
Yeah, that’s.

Yeah, definitely makes for a better experience. Can you tell me about a time when some sort of customer interaction turned into a great marketing win?

Graig Weiss (08:12)
Yeah, so we often do,

I one of the things that’s really unique about Bloomin’ Blinds is we do repairs as well. And we do repairs not because it’s the highest, you know, profit margins or, you know, anything like that. We do it as a courtesy to the customer because if you have, let’s say you have a room filled with like eight window treatments and one of them needs to be fixed, you don’t necessarily want to buy eight new window treatments.

But oftentimes providing that service, you know, getting into the home and, sometimes fixing,

some of the window treatments down the road will often lead to ⁓ either referrals, ⁓ which are always appreciated, ⁓ as well as sometimes they’ll come back a year later and say, actually, now I want to replace them or something along those lines. And that just starts with, again, that non-pushy, pushy approach. We’re coming out there and we’re not going to be pushy. We’re not going to upsell. We’re going to deliver services that we know you’re going to be happy with.

Will Hanke (09:09)
Yeah, I’m a huge fan of playing the long game.

I think, you know, being patient and understanding that investing in these repairs, those types of things for you are going to pay dividends down the road.

Graig Weiss (09:22)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Will Hanke (09:23)
Yeah. How do you build these kind of like wow moments in without breaking the bank, doing just, you know, in a repair where you’re making a hundred, 150 bucks or something like that ⁓ versus obviously your time that you spent to do that as well. How do you kind of build that in?

Graig Weiss (09:41)
Yeah, I think it’s like you just said, it’s playing the long game. My philosophy the first year was like, if we make no money this year, it’s OK. It’s building that customer base, building that referral program, meeting those relationships, and then results will come. And so that’s really in our philosophy and all of it. mean, we’ll do everything from a small repair all the way up to high-end motorization.

jobs as much as $45,000 in one home. So we’ll do everything in between because that small job, might be the van is parked right in front of the house and the neighbor across the street is in the market for window treatments or that customer’s relative needs window treatments. So we’re happy to service all customers even when it’s seemingly in the moment where they’re not high ticket items.

Will Hanke (10:33)
I love the van idea, just the fact that that is doing work for you while you’re in a home, something like that. And then of course you got the whole Joneses thing going on, right? What’s going on over there?

Graig Weiss (10:45)
Yeah, for sure,

for sure. And the van is hard to miss. I mean, it’s white and hot pink. So it’s a moving billboard, for sure.

Will Hanke (10:54)
Yeah, yeah. How do you balance being part of that national brand, but keeping your message authentic and local at the same time?

Graig Weiss (11:03)
Yeah, mean, it’s a combination of both. mean, in the Northeast, Bloomin Blinds is not as well known as like, you know, in the South and some of those different areas. So it is about getting the word out there. I mean, at the end of the day, even though we’re a franchise system, we’re still family-owned business. ⁓ You know, my wife and I are 100 % owners in the company. ⁓ It’s one of the things I like about Bloomin Blinds. We don’t push any one product or any one manufacturer in particular.

We carry four or five manufacturers and so really looking for the products that offer the best value to our customers. So if a customer is looking for a specific name brand, we’re happy to pull those out. Otherwise, we’ll pull different manufacturers out based on our experience and the value that they bring. But it’s always putting that local touch on it.

Everybody that works in our market is local and community based. And so we really are that family owned business even though we’re part of that larger franchise.

Will Hanke (12:08)
Yeah. Now with you being in the Northeast, are there any brand decisions that you think work especially well in your area?

Graig Weiss (12:16)
⁓ Not really in particular. mean obviously, you know, we recently started offering Hunter Douglas.

Hunter Douglas is, you know, probably one of the most known window treatment products out there. So we were happy to add that to our repertoire and, you know, be able to offer that.

But a lot of it is just, again, based on the products. We kind of have our favorites that we kind of steer in the direction depending on the product. So if it’s shutters and faux wood, it might be one manufacturer. If it’s cellular honeycomb shades, it might be another manufacturer. Just on our experience with those various products. And again, that’s one of the things I love about.

know, Bloomin’ Blinds is that they don’t push one thing over the other. They’re really open to, you know, it’s your franchise. You decide what you are going to sell and work with on an ongoing basis.

Will Hanke (13:07)
I know that you’ve been expanding and really kind of building out your area. So I’d like to talk a couple of questions about that. ⁓ What resources or structures helped you feel confident in growing your location and expanding?

Graig Weiss (13:23)
Yeah, I mean really, as far as resources go, it’s just, know, it’s really about people. I mean, this is really very, very much a people business and having the right partners in place like Window Treatment Marketing Pros, a little commercial there. But, you know, that’s a big piece to expanding, you know, just getting the word out there about the services that we provide and, you know, things like that. It’s…

I don’t want say it’s happened completely organically because there’s a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes, but this isn’t coupons or things like that that helps us expand. It’s reputation, making sure that that reputation is building online and things like that. As far as confidence go, a lot of it’s experience. You do things and the more that you do them, you get more more comfortable with both…

products and things that you’re installing in homes and knowing what’s going to work and what’s not going to work. ⁓ But again, you know, finding those vendors and those installers that are really going to knock it out of the park and, you know, deliver that perfection that we’re after. That’s really the key. And so it’s been somewhat, you know, slow and methodical. I mean, in some respects it’s been fast, but in some respects, you know, it hasn’t happened overnight. There hasn’t been a light switch that went off.

with the expansion, just, you know, it’s a snowball effect.

Will Hanke (14:45)
Yeah. Are there any common traps that you see from business owners that try to scale up their brand presence maybe a little bit too fast?

Graig Weiss (14:54)
Yeah, I would say again, it kind of comes back to people. mean, you know, we’re really particular in the people that work with us and, you we have high expectations and we need that to deliver. And I think that’s what our customers expect. I know that’s what I would want from, you know, from a vendor for them to come in and deliver on the promises that they’ve said and make sure that everything is perfect. I mean, our customers are paying for perfection and that’s what we’re trying to deliver every single time.

Will Hanke (15:22)
That’s awesome. So Bloomin’ Blinds has earned some strong recognition lately. And you yourself has as well. A couple different things that has gone on. You won 2024 franchise owner of the year. That’s pretty awesome. 2024 top overall sales for Ulta. 2000 top sales for Cellular Shades, Ulta again. Top product sales for Bloomin Blinds Cellular Shades and Soft Treatments.

Graig Weiss (15:37)
Yeah.

Will Hanke (15:52)
With all these awards, obviously they build trust, right, with your brand. ⁓ How is that for internal motivation?

Graig Weiss (16:04)
I would just say it’s incredibly gratifying. obviously when you start a business, as anyone who’s ever started a business, it’s a very nerve wracking experience and it’s more a mental game than anything else. When you start a business, I know for the first six months I pretty much woke up every day and be like, this the right decision? Am I making the right moves and things like that. Eventually you start to gain traction and that confidence builds and things like that.

But yeah, I I gave up a steady job with benefits and a pension and sort of took this leap of faith. And so when we got that award, was sort of like that moment where like, wow, we actually made this work and we can actually make a living out of it. So that was a really nice moment and some nice recognition for us.

Will Hanke (16:58)
Yeah, as I mentioned, great trust factor. Just having those types of awards from a consumer standpoint, these guys must be the best if they’re winning awards, right? ⁓ That’s always great. I think as entrepreneurs, we’re more likely to take crazy risks than maybe the average person would, ⁓ hoping that it pays off down the road.

Graig Weiss (17:22)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that was, you know, when I got into this, I was like, I’m just going to bet on myself on this one. You know, used, I used retirement money and it’s like, well, I can either put it in the stock market and let it ride or we can bet on ourselves. And, and, you know, you take that again, it’s a risk, but, you know, I think, you know, that entrepreneur, an entrepreneurial mindset is that now that, now that we’ve done it once, we can do it again, you know, so, you know, we continue to take those little risks and.

continue to the business.

Will Hanke (17:52)
Yeah, it’s highly motivating too if you’re that type of personality. My coach always says you eat what you kill, right? You got to get out there and make it happen or you can’t complain about it. Yeah, cool. So I know that you started in just a small service area. We kind of talked about your expansion. What was the mindset or what led you to wanting to start the expansion?

Graig Weiss (18:02)
Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Yeah, so it’s like really just being opportunistic. You know, I wasn’t really looking necessarily to expand. There was another Bloomin’ Blinds colleague that he had, he had several different businesses that he was running. He called me up at the end of last year and he said, hey, you interested in buying, you know, my territories? And so, you know, no matter what the case, I’m going to have the conversation. And one thing led to another. And we were able to, you know, buy those territories and, know,

you know, the plan is to continue to expand in a slow, deliberate way. So it’s really just being opportunistic and taking advantage of the opportunities that are presented. You just have to have your ears open and listening to them.

Will Hanke (19:01)
Yeah, I love that. ⁓ As you expand, how are you keeping the brand consistent as your physical area widens and you’ve got to juggle all these different things?

Graig Weiss (19:14)
Yeah, I mean, it’s definitely a challenge. I would even say that we’re not really, you know, we’re really not maximizing the new territories just yet. We’ve been really trying to build the team. And then once we have that team in place, then we can start to, you know, it opens up the capacity of, you know, of all of us to do a little bit more. And that’s when you can even do, you know, a little bit more marketing and, ⁓ you know, things like that to really maximize that area. So.

⁓ Even though we acquired the territories, it wasn’t day one that we hit the gas pedal on marketing out there because we just didn’t, you again, the opportunity arose. We took advantage of the opportunity, ⁓ but we need to build the team out to like really capitalize and make the most of it.

Will Hanke (19:57)
Yeah, you want to grow with your business, right? You don’t want to suddenly scale like crazy and then have to figure out how to make it work and start getting poor reviews. A lot of things could happen that way.

Yeah, yeah.

Graig Weiss (20:07)
That’s right. That’s right.

Will Hanke (20:11)
Was there a turning point for you when you realized like we’re ready to grow and your ear became more receptive to these opportunities?

Graig Weiss (20:22)
I don’t think so. I don’t think it was like one ⁓ catalyst that said that. mean, obviously, you kind of spoke earlier about the entrepreneurial mindset and like, you know, how as business owners,

in some ways it’s never enough. So you always want to be, know, once we reach a certain amount in sales, we want to be taking that next step and that next step and that next step. And so it’s constantly having that desire to grow.

But also being realistic about what are the steps that I need to put in place in order to grow this thing responsibly?

And at times that’s a tough balance I mean there’s definitely been months where I’m working seven days a week and doing installs on weekends to kind of get caught up ⁓ as we sort of build the team ⁓ But ⁓ you know, it’s all worth it in the end because you know at the end of the day we’re doing this for our families and you know, that’s what’s the most important to us to us all really

Will Hanke (21:13)
Yeah, what is it? I think it was Laurie from Shark Tank says entrepreneurs will work 80 hours to avoid working 40.

Graig Weiss (21:20)
That’s so true. You know,

it’s funny you mention that. think about two or three months in, I looked over at my wife and I said, you know what the biggest thing that scares me about this potentially not working? And she says, financial failure? said, nope, having to go back to a nine to five.

Will Hanke (21:38)
Yeah, by far, by far.

Thank you so much for the questions. I want to jump into some maybe kind of fun questions, if that would be OK. Have you ever had a customer request that totally caught you off guard?

Graig Weiss (21:45)
Yeah, yeah.

totally caught me off guard. ⁓ I’ve had customers ask for things, know, again my philosophy is that if I wouldn’t do it in my own home, I’m not gonna do it in somebody else’s home. ⁓ There have been things that, I’ll never forget, a customer had like a window that was 20 feet in the air and they wanted to put a continuous cord loop ⁓ all the way down 20 feet in order to operate the shade and ⁓ kind of caught me off guard but I was like, as I thought about it, I’m like, no, I’m not gonna do that.

Because at the end of the day, that’s not how it’s supposed to function. ⁓ My name is on it. I just didn’t think it was a really good move. So I kind of try to steer them in a different direction. I’ve had some other cool requests. I had a customer who was like, we want this to be the focal point. We want you to do something here that’s totally like that nobody’s ever seen before. ⁓ And so that was kind of a fun project.

At the end of the day, we had designed something that was very ⁓ outlandish, and they kind scaled it back and decided maybe we don’t want one as outlandish. But for the most part, those are few and far between, but they’re fun when they happen.

Will Hanke (22:57)
you

that’s fun. That

was probably a great learning experience for you. Even just building it out and then them having to scale it back. Very cool. What is the best and worst business advice you’ve ever received?

Graig Weiss (23:09)
Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Yep, absolutely.

Ooh, that’s a good question. Best and worst business advice.

I don’t know. I don’t know the answer to that one. Nothing’s really coming to mind. it probably received a little bit of both, you know, in both regards, both good and bad advice. But I mean, that’s, you know, kind of goes back to, mean, one of the things that I’m constantly trying to do is talk to owners that are successful and beg, borrow and steal, you know, ideas from them. You know, that’s one of the benefits of being in a franchise system and the thing that I really value.

Will Hanke (23:37)
All right.

Graig Weiss (24:02)
is reaching out to the other owners and figure out what’s working for them and maybe what’s not working so well.

Will Hanke (24:08)
Yeah, on ⁓ the ⁓ project that you had where they said they wanted something really outlandish, have you ever come across a situation where you’re just not the right fit for the customer? And if so, how do you kind of handle that interaction?

Graig Weiss (24:27)
Yeah, mean, ⁓ it’s just being honest. I think people respect being really honest with what your capabilities are. mean, one of the areas that I would like to get into eventually is pergolas. We’re doing a lot more exterior screens. We’re starting to get into awnings a little bit more. But pergolas are just not something that I currently have the team to tackle. And so we’ve been asked about them, and that’s my response. If you talk to me in two years,

The answer might be yes. The answer right now is I just don’t have the team in place to execute a pergola. so, you know, and if I have, if I have partners that, you know, or recommendations, happy to provide those, you know, we do that in a lot of other areas. We often are in the home, we build that trust with customers and the customers are asking us for painters and, know, somebody to renovate their kitchen and, you know, things of that nature. And so happy to, you know, always provide.

those resources for other folks in the community who do an excellent job that have the standards that we do.

Will Hanke (25:34)
Yeah, there’s something definitely to be said about becoming a coach or a resource for a customer. ⁓ They really put quality into that and they consider you an expert, obviously. So that really kind of elevates you from just being a sales guy.

Graig Weiss (25:52)
Yep, yep, absolutely.

Will Hanke (25:54)
Love that. ⁓ Very good. Running a classroom and running a business, which one has more surprises?

Graig Weiss (26:03)
that’s easy. Definitely a classroom has more surprises. I’ve got stories. I’ve got stories.

Will Hanke (26:10)
Yeah, you don’t have to get into the stories.

⁓ But was it because of the age group? What was the big thing that was creating all those surprises for you?

Graig Weiss (26:21)
Uh, it’s, both it’s, you know, kids are kids, right. And kids are always going to be wires kids. And I know we all have stories that, you know, how we were when we were kids, but, uh, you know, kids are unique. And when you’re dealing with, mean, when I was running, uh, foundation academies in Trent, had 1200 kids. And so there was always those few kids that had those personalities that, you know, just kind of throw it, keep you on your toes, if you will. so, but I was also, when I was a teacher, I was also teaching middle school and.

school, you have to have a of unique sense of humor to appreciate the middle school sense of humor.

Will Hanke (26:57)
For sure. I bet along the way you learned a lot about leadership as well. Yeah.

Graig Weiss (27:01)
Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah.

Both learned it, you know, the hard way and, but that’s, I mean, it’s funny because like, you know, running a business is challenging, but it’s nothing like, you know, what I was doing before. That was just, you know, we had 1200 kids between parents and students and, you know, 150 staff and board members. There was just a whole lot to, you know, cut. At times you felt like a pinball and you were just kind of like…

Will Hanke (27:29)
you

Graig Weiss (27:29)
bouncing

between the different constituents and trying to keep things on the right track.

Will Hanke (27:35)
Yeah. Is there any one leadership lesson that’s really carried over in a big way for you?

Graig Weiss (27:41)
I think the biggest thing is humility. mean,

leadership will humble you quicker than anything. And I think that’s true in the business that we do.

I always tell customers, I can’t promise it’s going to be perfect. I’m going to try real hard because it’s going to cost me money if I don’t. there’s mistakes that we make. We mismeasure things and have to reorder things or things get damaged during shipping.

But I think the biggest thing is just that humility and being genuine with people and making things right in the long

And I think that that’s true in like any leadership position.

Will Hanke (28:20)
Yeah, smart advice. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. Let’s talk about the future. What are you most excited about in the next 6 to 12 months?

Graig Weiss (28:30)
Yeah, just continuing to grow things, continuing to learn new things, offer new products. As I said, we’re doing more more exterior work.

So exterior, the retractable zipper screens. We’re doing now retractable awnings. And who knows, like I said, in another year or two, maybe we’re doing percolas and things like that.

I just think the exterior space, we’re really seeing high demand for the exterior spaces and it just makes so much sense. mean, it can extend your living space in a very cost-effective way to do some of these projects.

Will Hanke (29:11)
I love that. I would say two years ago, maybe 10 % of our client base did exterior. And now that number is probably 35 to 40%. A lot more of the window treatment offerings are turning to exterior as well.

Graig Weiss (29:31)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the thing that I love about, you know, the motorized screens in particular is most people think of them to knock down the sun, which they do. But in the Northeast, what they can do is if you put infrared heaters inside your, you know, porch or what have you, ⁓ they actually retain the heat. And so now you’ve gone from a three, four month porch to a nine month porch.

just by adding those retractable screens and some heaters. ⁓ yeah, that’s my favorite thing about the screens.

Will Hanke (30:07)
I like that. That expands your square footage as far as livable square footage in the winter, especially. That’s fantastic. I like that. Where can people connect with you to learn more about Bloomin’ Blind’s Buxmot and your journey individually?

Graig Weiss (30:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Yeah, absolutely. So I’m pretty accessible. You can either email me at bucksco B-U-C-K-S-C-O @ bloomingblinds.com. Visit our website at bloominblindsbuxmont.com And ⁓ yeah, those are probably the two easiest ways, but I’m happy to connect with whoever and ⁓ see how we can share resources.

Will Hanke (30:51)
Yeah. Any awards that you’ve got your eyes on for next year?

Graig Weiss (30:57)
No, you know, I tend to think that those awards like happen organically. Again, really proud to, you know, have been honored to receive them. But we’re just going to continue to keep our head down, try to deliver exceptional services. And then, you know, maybe some of those awards will come up as a byproduct of our work.

Will Hanke (31:20)
Perfect answer. I love that. Keep your head down. Keep pushing forward, right? That’s awesome. Well, Graig, thank you so much for being on the show today. I really do appreciate it.

Graig Weiss (31:21)
That’s right.

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate you and your partnership in this journey.

Will Hanke (31:34)
Yeah.

Yeah, we’re excited for the future. We’re excited for your expansion. Obviously, ready to help it however we can. Awesome.

Well, big thanks to Graig Weiss for sharing his perspective on what it means to build something that truly reflects your values from the way you lead the team to how your brand shows up in the community. His journey is a reminder that strong businesses aren’t just built on sales, but on purpose, consistency, and connection.

If you’re thinking about how to align your marketing with your message, we hope this episode gave you somewhat of a

roadmap. Subscribe, share with a friend and we’ll catch you next time on Marketing Panes.

Guest Profile: Joe Estrada

Joe Estrada, Account Manager at Coulisse Distribution, serving the Northeast and Midwest regions of the U.S. Joe partners with custom window shade fabricators to deliver innovative, high-quality solutions—especially in smart shading technology through MotionBlinds. With a focus on responsive service, long-term relationships, and empowering trade professionals, Joe helps clients stay competitive in a fast-evolving industry

Special Invite to Sun Shading Expo 2025

Heading to the Sun Shading Expo in Indianapolis this November 5–7? We’ve got you covered!

Use code SSENA25WTMP when registering to claim your FREE admission ticket.

Don’t miss this chance to connect with top industry leaders, see the latest innovations, and experience hands-on demos — all at no cost with our exclusive listener code.

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TRANSCRIPT

Will Hanke (00:00)
Welcome to another episode of marketing panes the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning professionals about their marketing, innovation and business growth. I’m your host, Will Hanke. And today we’re diving into the world of smart shading and innovation with guests who knows this space in and out. Our guest today is Joe Estrada, account manager at Coulisse distribution, serving the Northeast and Midwest regions of the U S.

Joe partners with custom windows shade fabricators to deliver innovative, high quality solutions, especially in smart shading through technology called MotionBlinds, which we’re gonna dig into a little bit today. With a focus on responsive service, long-term relationships, and empowering trade professionals, Joe helps clients stay competitive in a fast evolving industry. We’ll be talking about how technology is reshaping the market and

the evolution of modular systems, and what’s next for dealers and fabricators in the smart shade

era. Joe, thanks for being on the show today.

Joe Estrada (01:07)
Absolutely. Thanks for having me Will.

Will Hanke (01:09)
Yeah, glad to have you. So for listeners who don’t know yet, can you share a little bit about your background and what you do at Coulisse Distribution?

Joe Estrada (01:19)
Yeah, yeah, so you touched on it. So I’m a sales rep for Coulisse . I’ve been with the company just a little over a year and a half, coming up on almost two years now, serving primarily the Midwest and parts of the Northeast. So our team, we have coverage throughout the whole country here in the U.S. as well as Canada, and then making our way down to Central America and South America as well. So we have local representation in kind of every corner of the country.

and my portion is the Midwest and a few accounts of the Northeast as well.

Will Hanke (01:50)
Nice. I heard a rumor this was your first podcast.

Joe Estrada (01:54)
It is, it is. think I was joking with you. I, I’m about a daily listener of some kind of a podcast, especially when I’m traveling. but this is the first one that I’m on. So you’re you’re kind of like an adult Santa Claus, you know, Santa Claus for adults making my, little dream come true here. So thanks again.

Will Hanke (02:08)
⁓

too funny. What made you say yes for joining us today?

Joe Estrada (02:12)
Yeah, so ⁓ obviously having the opportunity to share some of the exciting things that we’re doing at Coulisse , especially in evolving landscape in our industry right now. And you guys, the R+T group, you yourself, have always been really, really ⁓ kind to us at Coulisse So when the opportunity presented itself, we felt we had to jump on top of it. I guess you guys are stuck with me. So.

Will Hanke (02:35)
Yeah. Well,

it’s great having you here today. So let’s talk a little bit about Coulisse . I’d love to know what sets Coulisse apart from the other component and fabric suppliers in the window treatment space.

Joe Estrada (02:49)
Yeah, yeah, so I would say one thing that’s kind of unique about us is we are a global one-stop shop. So whether it’s components, hardware, our collections, and our own motors, we are a true, we sell a true system. So obviously you can take the parts that you like if you don’t want or need the full system, but really the beauty in what Coulisse offers is our system approach. ⁓ And we’re going to dive a little bit deeper into that, but I would say that’s something that’s unique.

and then I think our look, our feel kind of our marketing, our branding is a little unique to us. I’m obviously a little biased, but I think we do that part of, the business really, really well. so yeah, a few things that we offer that are unique in that

sense.

Will Hanke (03:30)
Yeah, as a marketing guy, always paying attention to that and I see you guys everywhere. So you’re doing a great job there. Yeah, yeah, very good. Well, let’s jump in. I want to talk about the absolute roller. What is it? How does it serve as the foundation for your product lineup?

Joe Estrada (03:35)
Yeah. Yep. Thank you.

Yes, so we are absolute roller 2.0 system. That is it’s a modular concept, right? So the terms that our engineers like to use is it’s kind of like working with

Legos. So interchangeable components and hardware. You don’t have a right and left bracket, for example. And you can go from our essentially what, you know, for lack of a better term, our dumbest system, our chain manual operated system to our smartest motorized.

motion blind system just by removing the mechanism, the chain clutch mechanism or what some people would call a clutch and replacing it with our motor. So the tube sizes are the same, the deduction sizes are all the same. ⁓ So obviously that’s handy if you’re upgrading a shade that maybe somebody bought years ago or maybe they’re going to buy now if they’d like to upgrade at some point in the future. But it really makes it easy for the manufacturers to work with as well.

So a lot less SKUS and components to work with. ⁓ And obviously we have different sizes, whether it’s a small, medium, large size, depending on the configuration and the control. ⁓ But the modular concept of it makes it user friendly, not only for the fabricators or the manufacturers, but also the installers and then eventually the end users as well, especially when you’re talking motionblinds.

Will Hanke (05:04)
Yeah, and I can assume with that modular approach, the inventory management side of things is easier as well.

Joe Estrada (05:10)
Yep, yep. actually an introduction into our space last year, I got an opportunity to work on a bid for a company and they sent me the existing system that they were using and had said, hey, here’s all the components and hardware and everything that we buy, tell me what your equivalent would be and kind of how that would look differently.

And that’s when I really, the advantage of the modular concept kind of sunk in for me because we talk about it a lot internally.

But when you’re looking at a list of you know hundreds of components and SKUs and I’m using the same 30 40 50 SKUs essentially for the whole thing That’s when it really sunk into me like wow if I was owning the fabrication business ⁓ Especially everybody has a limit on space some some really big some small But everybody’s trying to make the most of the space that they have and they’re in their facility That’s a real big advantage to using a modular concept like what Coulisse offers

Will Hanke (06:04)
That’s great. What are the benefits for like dealers and workrooms when it comes to the system?

Joe Estrada (06:11)
Yeah, very similar. for dealers, it’s easy to install. So if the dealers are paired with the installers or have their own installers, our hardware is very, very easy to use. Again, you’re not worried about a right versus a left and having any errors or issues there that you have to fix. ⁓ For workrooms, it’s similar to a fabricator, right? Depending on where the workroom gets it or starts working at it on the product in the process. Again, fewer SKUs.

the tube sizes are all the same. ⁓ so yeah, you don’t have to familiarize yourself with a bunch of different series or systems all under our umbrella. You get used to that system and it’s a little bit easier to work with from there.

Will Hanke (06:54)
that’s great. I love that approach. I think it’s a lot easier for the end users, as you said, when it comes to figuring out what they need. And you’re probably cutting down on the amount of things that they have to order as well.

Joe Estrada (07:05)
Absolutely. Yep, just because there’s fewer SKUs ⁓ and then yeah, you really notice it with our motorized products because we have a QR code kind of system to set them up. So you don’t have to familiarize yourself with these elaborate, you know, softwares or apps. So if you’re not super techie, as long as you know how to use the camera on your phone and a QR code, which most people by now are pretty familiar with.

Will Hanke (07:30)
Yeah.

Joe Estrada (07:31)
You should be okay setting them up yourselves if you choose to do so. Obviously any installer that has a little bit of experience in our industry, it’s going to be easy for them too. So yeah.

Will Hanke (07:42)
That’s awesome. I’d love to kind of jump into the motorization since you mentioned that ⁓ it’s tech that’s turning heads across the industry, especially the motionblinds. So tell me a little bit about those.

Joe Estrada (07:56)
so anywhere you see Motion, it’s funny, so my first introduction to the industry was really at R+T Stuttgart last year. I hadn’t even been with the company, I don’t think two months, so talk about drinking from a fire hose as your first event. But I was really, really thankful for

Will Hanke (08:08)
Yeah.

Joe Estrada (08:12)
it,

and our booth was MotionBlinds branded. And so a lot of people kind of came over and said, hey, we heard the Coulisse booth is over here, know, where are you guys? And we’re like, you’re right here.

So when you see motionblinds, that is just Coulisse ‘s motorization line, right? That is our own brand of motorization. So we have our regular Bluetooth motors that have been around for a handful of years now for a while that everybody’s probably really familiar with. And then we have our newer smart motors, our Eve motionblinds. So a lot of folks are probably familiar with what Eve is. If you walk into a Best Buy or Apple store, you’ll see their products. They’re like a smart home company, I would say.

So that, and then we do have a comprehensive wired motor program as well for kind of the contract space and the new build space. So a fully comprehensive line of motorization kind of no matter where you’re at as an end user, whether it’s just a homeowner or you’re building a new home, building a new building. So yes, and because of the nature of just scanning the QR code to set up your shades.

It’s 100 % data private, so you don’t have to create accounts, you don’t have to give up your email and phone number and address and rights to your first child, you just scan the QR code and go.

So again, kind of that user-friendly term is something you hear us throughout there a lot, but it’s not just something we talk about. Once you start playing with it, you really can feel the difference between maybe some of the other systems out there.

Will Hanke (09:33)
Yeah, I have some experience with that with some ⁓ security cameras at my house. You just you just shoot the QR code and it just pulls that right in really quick. Yeah.

Joe Estrada (09:41)
Exactly, exactly.

so and with so thanks for mentioning that well on the on the smart home process or conversation, our Eve motionblinds, those can be integrated into your smart home or your smart building. So they’re compatible with the Apple platform, Google, Amazon and Samsung. And our our motors are matter over thread. So matter is just essentially the smart language that a lot of these smart devices speak to each other.

And then the thread network is a mesh network. So the more wired or plugged in devices that you add to it, the stronger that network gets throughout a home or throughout a building. Whereas, you know, on Wi-Fi, the more you add to it, the more juice you’re sucking out of that network. you know, wireless shades don’t necessarily strengthen that network, but anything that’s plugged in or wired will. ⁓ So matter over thread is the system that our EVE

motionblinds work on.

Will Hanke (10:36)
Yeah, and I know Amazon does something similar to that with their sidewalk, ⁓ where multiple Alexis, for instance, talk to each other. That’s always nice to have that additional kind of boost.

Joe Estrada (10:48)
Yes, and you know, a lot of people think smart is just motorized, right? You can set a timer or set end limits. Really, what smart means is that your environment ⁓ can react without you needing to do anything, right? So you can set scenes or automations based on weather, time of day, ⁓ internal temperatures, the glare of the sun.

Your smart home works around you the way that you would want it without needing to do anything. That’s kind of what makes it smart. And so that’s kind of the key difference between a regular Bluetooth motor and say like the Eve MotionBlinds.

Will Hanke (11:21)
Yeah, I’ve mentioned on a lot of my podcasts and I’m kind of a smart home nerd. And when people come over to the house, they’re always like,

Joe Estrada (11:25)
Yep. Yep.

Will Hanke (11:29)
Whoa, that just happened.

So how do you think the smart piece is going to evolve in the next 12 months? Do you think it’s going to be optional for installs or you think more people are just going to want it?

Joe Estrada (11:30)
Hahaha

Yeah, that’s a great question.

I believe the timing is anybody’s best guess, right? We have kind of chosen to be on the front end of it. We kind of got out in front of this maybe a couple of years earlier than most. ⁓ Right now, it does seem pretty optional, right? But the more people that you talk to,

the more you realize smart homes are becoming kind of the norm for lot of people.

I was telling you, Will, we were in the Netherlands last week for our annual global sales meetings with Coulisse and our home office there in Enter.

And the eastern part of the Netherlands and on the way home I sat next to a guy who has a full smart home was familiar with matter-over-thread So that’s the first time that that’s happened where I’m just kind of striking up a conversation with somebody and they really know what’s going on so I would be surprised in the next 12 months 24 months 36 months that starts to become more of the norm and eventually whether it’s in a couple years five years ten years or more a Smart home is going to probably be

Will Hanke (12:25)
Okay.

Joe Estrada (12:42)
somewhat of the standard. And depending on all the estimates that you see out there, you know, by 2030, there’s some estimates that, you know, anywhere from a third to half of homes will be smart homes, at least have smart capabilities, right?

And smart shades are going to play a bigger and bigger part of that moving forward.

Will Hanke (13:03)
Yeah, when it comes to the smart shades, what do you think? What do you wish more dealers knew about those?

Joe Estrada (13:10)
Yes, ⁓ obviously, know, so like for our concept, for example, just by changing one clutch to a motor, not much about the shade is changing, but the revenue. So your average, you know,

your average cost per shade is going to go up usually by about three X, roughly, roughly speaking. And then typically your profit margins on a motor are a little bit better than, a chain clutch as well.

The chain manual operated shades are something that the really, really big guys do really well and they’ve done really well for a long time. And they have certain advantages that maybe some of the smaller fabricators or smaller work rooms just can’t reach like they can.

But motorized shades are still kind of, are still growing in our industry.

So not only can you raise the average price per shade and make yourself more revenue by selling the same amount of shades or hopefully more, obviously.

But there’s a lot of opportunity that’s out there for the taking. So it’s as we enter kind of a new landscape, there’s a lot of clients that are looking for something that they maybe wouldn’t have been interested in before because they already had a manual shade that came with the house or apartment that they bought or whatever.

But as more folks are looking for a motorized shade, that’s where a lot of opportunity is going to be there

to eat up those customers at a higher cost per shade and a higher profit margin from what we see with our clients.

Will Hanke (14:31)
Yeah.

Right. Yeah. As consumers get more into the smart home world like me, ⁓ we have obviously installers that are putting this stuff together and they kind of have to know what is going on. On the troubleshooting side, like what’s involved there? Is it easy to troubleshoot the motionblinds or is a lot of additional knowledge required?

Joe Estrada (14:53)
No, it’s very simple. every motor will or every motor I shade will come with a kind of a setup guide and a troubleshooting guide. And it’s usually just a handful of steps, right? If all else fails, if something’s wrong with your shade, you just reset it and reprogram it. And you can program our motors in three ways. So you can do it right from the shade itself, right from the motor. You can do it with the remote or you can do it from your phone with the app. So we like to give clients, dealers, designers, whoever’s programming that shade, the option to do it how they would like to.

Will Hanke (15:17)
Okay.

Joe Estrada (15:23)
And then we also have a relatively new motion blind chat bot that you can go on to as a consumer, a dealer, a designer, an installer, ask it your questions, or even follow some of the prompts to get specifically to the shade that you’re working with. And 80, 90 % of the questions that you have, that chat bot is going to be able to answer for you. Over time, the goal is 99.9 % of the questions, so.

Will Hanke (15:45)
That’s awesome.

Joe Estrada (15:49)
Just like any LLM, it’s being trained right now ⁓ and getting better by the day. And then obviously for fabricators, ⁓ they have their sales rep like myself, ⁓ based on where they’re at throughout the country or throughout the world that they can go to for, hey, I tried the chat bot, I’m trying to reset this thing. And for whatever reason, there’s still an issue, you can lean on your sales rep and we’ll help you out as well. luckily with the…

the user friendliness of the the motionblinds and just the entire system. We don’t get a lot of those calls because they usually kind of are able to self correct one way or another. And

then with the chat bot, that has really been a huge tool and we use it a lot internally too to kind of test it. You know, how accurate is this? And so far so good.

Will Hanke (16:33)
That’s huge. And that is leading edge stuff. I probably had three AI questions yesterday on different sales calls. Everybody’s starting to use it. Our clients are starting to get referrals from Chat GPT.

Joe Estrada (16:40)
Yeah. Yep.

Will Hanke (16:47)
So having that system in place, teaching it how to answer questions is just going to make the installers especially, or the dealers, that whole thing a lot easier for them.

Joe Estrada (16:56)
Yeah, and it’s funny you say that. I was just listening to a podcast the other day. there’s actually a lot of data that’s coming out that, especially the younger generation, so Gen Z and the really, really young millennials, a lot of us, if you’re looking for a service, a product, or whatever, a lot of times it would start on Google, right? A lot of those conversations or those prompts or those searches are now starting on chat GPT, like, hey.

I’m looking for the, I don’t know, the best motorized window dealer in Detroit, Michigan or whatever. Those prompts are now a lot of times starting from chat GPT. as I think just kind of a personal opinion, as you see those guys try to monetize their platform a little bit more, I’m sure you’ll see a lot more direct links or click to go check out that product that you just did your search for. So yeah, I think that’s just kind of.

a normal part of everyday life and will be more so moving forward.

Will Hanke (17:51)
Yeah, that’s awesome. ⁓ I know that you had mentioned that Coulisse is really committed to empowering fabricators instead of competing with them. ⁓ How does that look like in practice? What does that look

Joe Estrada (17:58)
Yep. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah. So we don’t have a retail outlet, right? So it’s funny at our shows, we always do an amazing job with our booth. Again, I’m biased, but if you’ve ever seen one, you know what I’m talking about. And we get people that come up to our to our booth constantly like, hey, these are awesome. Where’s your website? Can I order them right now? We don’t have a retail outlet per se. So we really empower our fabricators to be the the engine of us getting our products into the end user’s hands.

So, ⁓ you know, like we have the Sun Shading Expo coming up here in a few weeks in Indy, that first week of November. And it’s inevitable we’re going to get some dealer, designer, architect leads that come from that. And we refer those, preferably, to somebody locally in that community. So we’re pairing a local, call it dealer, with a local fabricator. It’s a win-win ⁓ of somebody that makes the certain system or shade that they’re looking for.

So we really empower our fabricators and are a true partner to them to try to help them grow their business because what’s good for them is obviously good for us too. ⁓ So everything we do, we kind of look through as the lens of a fabricator of how can we do things better or a custom workroom. ⁓ How can we do things better to help them do their business better and grow their revenue.

Will Hanke (19:07)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. In a world of direct to consumer pressure, ⁓ why is that B2B balance and loyalty so important for Coulisse ?

Joe Estrada (19:33)
Yeah, so, you know, it all starts with the partnerships and, know, a lot of these companies that we’re working with here in the US, our industry is a very, very old one,

right? Windows are very, very old. So there’s a lot of clients ⁓ or fabricators, workrooms that have done a really great job of building their own networks, right? Of dealers and designers. It’s taken sometimes several decades for them to build the ecosystem that they all have.

So by creating partnerships with them and getting our products to them,

we could take advantage of what they have built to a certain extent as opposed to trying to go right to the end user and try something new that we’ve never done

We kind of see it as we’re really good at what we do. We have a unique system that we can offer. And so now it’s just, hey, let’s get that system or at least parts of that system into the hands of as many workrooms and fabricators as possible. And that will eventually lead to more end users, more, you know,

architects, more building owners buying our products as a result of that as well.

Will Hanke (20:36)
Yeah, that’s a smart model. Any advice that you’d give to other supplier brands that are trying to balance growth with these strong relationships?

Joe Estrada (20:46)
Yes, so I mean, think at the end of the day, all comes down to, know, assuming you have a competitive product and a competitive price people buy from from people they like and trust,

right? So if you’re always the most likable and trustworthy one, ⁓ even if there’s bumps along the road and you create that true partnership relationship with your clients and vice versa, you’re going to lean on each

other, right? And look for solutions as opposed to, hey, here’s this problem.

Now what do we do? Well, we know what we’re going to do. We’re going to find a solution together that’s a win-win and move past it. And the other thing, I think you just focus on what you’re good at, right? Lean into what you’re really good at. Whether it’s a person or a company, we all have strengths and weaknesses maybe. ⁓ lean into what you’re good at.

And for us, that’s the B2B market. And our partners here in the US and all over the world.

have helped us grow our business in a really sustainable and meaningful way.

You know, we’re still owned by the same two brothers that started our company, know, 33 years ago now. And they’ve always kind of done things in a similar way just in terms of partnerships and relationships. And, you know, the results and the success speaks for itself.

Will Hanke (21:58)
I’d love to talk a little bit about inventory and supply. ⁓ You mentioned inventory levels are pretty strong right now, especially on fabrics and solar screens. What’s behind that strategy?

Joe Estrada (22:11)
Yeah, so that’s always kind of been the coolest way we, you know, there’s some nuance there, but we always try to keep at least six to 12 months or more of our key SKUs. So whether it’s our key fabric or our solar screen SKUs, our key motors, key components and hardware from the absolute roller system, you know, depending on who you talk to, you get a different number, but our on time delivery rate is anywhere from about 95 to 98 % here in the U S depending on the year. So that’s something that we’re really, really proud of. And

as certain things may be changing the industry and you see certain thought processes wanna get leaner and leaner on the inventory side for a various number of reasons, we’re kinda going the other way. And that’s really due to our leadership here in the Americas and our owners keeping their commitment to our clients where, ⁓ especially during COVID, everything got a little crazy, right? But a lot of people lost a lot of money and a lot of opportunities and created a whole lot of extra headache that…

that they maybe didn’t need just because of out of stocks and not having the inventory when your partners need it. So that’s something that, and our warehouse team is amazing. We have the right processes in place. So we’ve done a really great job of balancing, hey, you’d never want too much inventory, right? You have to move it, you have to sell it, and you don’t want wasted space. But we really, really have out of stocks. And if we do, it’s usually, it’s going to be here in a week or two. It’s not.

You know, I’ve heard some horror cases maybe six months or more. And at that point, if you’re the work room or the fabricator or the dealer, you’re going to have to reselect. And so if you have to reselect, ⁓ not only is that going to cause more headaches and issues, obviously,

but time kills deals. So the longer you stretch that, that, that deal or that opportunity out, the more chance there is for something to go awry and you lose that opportunity, which is just lost money, which we don’t want for anybody.

So,

Will Hanke (24:03)
Right. Right.

Joe Estrada (24:04)
Kudos to our leadership and to our owners for staying committed to doing things that way. And when you’re owned by the same guys that have built everything, I think it makes that easier to kind of stay true to that in the face of a number of issues kind of in and around our industry and the world globally.

Will Hanke (24:20)
Yeah. As a vendor, you’ve always got to play the balancing of the supply chain, right? you know, do you see, more people making purchasing decisions based on availability over brand loyalty now?

Joe Estrada (24:25)
Yep.

Absolutely, in both, but absolutely to the first point of availability. Just speaking for myself, my own clients, I know of a handful of opportunities that I think we would have, you know, I’d like to think we would have eventually gotten to have an opportunity at closing those deals. But some of them that are coming our way more and more because they’re recognizing the difference between us and maybe some others of being able to deliver.

on time at that, call it high 90 % rate where others can’t. And if it isn’t out of stock again, like it happens, right? It’s not a hundred percent, but if it’s a week or two, everybody can deal with that when it’s several months. That’s when it starts to become really, really challenging. So, just speaking for myself, I can, you know, just off the top of my head, I’m thinking of three or four opportunities that have come up this at the end of last year and this year so far, that I’m not sure we get them as quickly as we did. If not for,

essentially them trusting us to be able to deliver for them on time more than let’s say who we’re competing against. So yeah, there is a true business advantage to it. Absolutely.

Will Hanke (25:35)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah. So a lot of our listeners are dealers. How do you think they can learn from how Coulisse is approaching the supply chain and stocking differently today?

Joe Estrada (25:50)
Well, you’re dealers and designers love us, I think more than anybody, right? Because we just are our branding, our marketing is very, very good. Just our style. ⁓ It’s very, very, ⁓ I would say modern. It’s very, very fashionable. So ⁓ dealers, dealers and designers, designers, think love us as much as anybody. ⁓ So in terms of what they can learn from that, I think it’s just, again, kind of building that partnership approach and attacking it from a partnership approach, not being so transactional with everything.

and then leaning into what you’re good at and, being reliable, right?

Say what you’re going to do and then do what you’re going to say.

⁓ and I think Huliss does an amazing job at doing that. And it makes our job as a sales rep really easy because you know that what you’re telling your clients, you can actually stand on it and your, teammates are going to do what’s necessary behind you to make sure that what you’re telling them comes to fruition. So, having that team approach.

and just being reliable, no matter at what point of the chain of the process that you’re in, I think will yield really, really good results for you on the business side.

Will Hanke (26:56)
It’s great that you have that awesome support. mean, it sounds like you got a great job.

Joe Estrada (27:02)
⁓ I do. do our team, you know, again, kind of going back to Chris and Maurice, they’re the two brothers. ⁓ it, Coulisse feels like one big family. So we’re a global company. We’ve got offices all over the world and representation all over the world, but we were all just together, you know, in, in a small little farm town in Eastern Netherlands last year. And it feels like one big family. So, ⁓ if I ever need engineering’s help, if I ever need marketing’s help, if I ever need to contact the warehouse supply chain,

I know who to contact and who to get a hold of and they’re always willing to lend a helping hand. And when you’re a global operation, a lot of people working remotely, you’re traveling all over the place, you have clients all over the place. It’s impossible to do this thing well if you’re not doing it as a team. So very thankful as a salesperson, makes my job much easier, which I really appreciate.

Will Hanke (27:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, for

sure. Yeah. So speaking of staying stocked and ready, let’s look at where Coulisse will be showcasing these innovations next. You mentioned earlier the Sun Shading Expo. Tell me about what you guys are doing there.

Joe Estrada (28:06)
Yes, so we will have our ⁓ booth like we always do and we will have all of our products on display. So we kind of separate it by, you know,

we’ll have like a child safe by design table,

which I actually haven’t jumped into just yet. It’s a, you know, child safety has been a huge topic of conversation the last few years all around the world, but especially here in the U.S. So we have systems, mostly our twin pull, our balanced roller, our zero gravity system.

and our motionblinds obviously that are child safe by design, right? So you don’t need a tensioner device ⁓ or something additional to make it more child safe. We have those solutions as well for our manually operated shades, but we will have them all separated. So we’ll have a child safe by design table. We’ll have a motionblinds table. We’ll likely have a wired motor, a wired motionblinds table, some of our manual solutions. We’ll have our entire US. ⁓

fabric collection on display. And then we’ll have all the individual components, hardware, motors as well to kind of get as granular as we need to with a fabricator or installer or even a dealer maybe. ⁓ So whether you want to see the really pretty finished products that everybody comes over and wants to buy a bunch of right away, or you want to look at the little bits and pieces, we’ll have it all. ⁓ And we’ll have coffee, we’ll have water. I think in the afternoon we usually switch it to the good stuff, the beer and wine as well.

Will Hanke (29:31)
Okay.

Joe Estrada (29:31)
If you’re going to be at Sunshading Expo, you have to come see the Coulisse Booth

Will Hanke (29:35)
I guess I know where I’ll be in the afternoon. Any sneak peeks that you can share with the audience?

Joe Estrada (29:38)
That’s right. Yeah, that’s right.

Yes, so we do have something that’s new with Coulisse is our absolute silent program that we will be kind of rolling out, call it next year. ⁓ So the first part of that is a silent bracket for our cassette, our medium sized cassette system. ⁓ So what that is is with our motorized shades, everybody’s always trying to, hey, how do we make the system, especially if it’s in a ⁓

cassette or if it’s in ⁓ fascia, ⁓ how do we make it quieter? How can we make it ⁓ even more quiet for the end users, right? Especially if it’s in a bedroom or so. ⁓ We’re always making tweaks to the motors themselves to make them quieter and quieter. And then we also are going to have the bracket, for example, that’s for lack of a better term, enhanced with some additional ⁓ advantages on it. ⁓

that will help make the system quieter. ⁓ So eventually we’ll have a ⁓ silent crown and drive as well that can be included. So I kind of anticipate the silent components just kind of overtaking maybe some of the other components that we’ve sold previously for our motionblinds. ⁓ But again, we’re about giving clients the option so that option will stay there. I know I will be pushing my clients to use those silent components.

just to give the end user an even better experience, right? If it adds an extra 10, 15 % enjoyment and satisfaction to the end user’s experience, I think it’s worth it.

Will Hanke (31:20)
Yeah, you and I lucked

out this year because it’s in the Midwest. We don’t have far to go, right?

Joe Estrada (31:25)
That’s right. I know. I

know. I told, ⁓ I told our team down in Miami, bring their coats and their scarves and their winter hats. So I’ll have some, I’ll have some hot cocoa waiting for them when they get up North. ⁓ and then the, the, the other thing too, sorry, we’ll is, we’ll have our wired motors. we have kind of a new comprehensive wired motor program, mostly for the contract market, but also for the residential market, especially a new build. We’ll have those on display as well. So if you’ve always, you know, if you’re an existing client with Coulisse .

Will Hanke (31:31)
Right?

Yeah.

Joe Estrada (31:53)
You’ve always wanted to work with Coulisse so you’re just interested in what we are doing on the wired motor side. Come stop by and we can show you that new program as well.

Will Hanke (32:01)
Yeah, so definitely stop by the booth for some goodies and ⁓ what’s going on. Why do you think the Sun Shading Expo is important to our industry right now?

Joe Estrada (32:05)
That’s right.

One, you can, know, especially we were talking about AI earlier, I think more and people are working remotely, myself included. No matter what, it’s still a people business. It’s still kind of a contact sport, right? So anything that gets people together from the industry, you’re going to have fun, right? But you’re also going to make a lot of progress on the business side. You can exchange ideas. ⁓ It’s kind of good to see, hey, what’s our competition doing, right? That’s a great opportunity for us to see what they’re doing. What are they highlighting? ⁓ But it’s a…

One place where you can meet clients, you can meet prospects, you can get in front of new people that maybe don’t know as much about you, or who, you hey, you always get the most out of who and what somebody is in person. ⁓ And then all the different learnings that are available, right? I’m new to the industry, so anybody that’s new, there’s a lot to learn. ⁓

Even though the industry feels smaller and smaller by the day, there’s still a lot to learn, not only about, you know, your own stuff.

but what everybody else is doing as well. So if you want to crash course and to be incredibly efficient, a trade show like Sun Shading Expo, there’s no better place to be for a week to again, kind of drink from a fire hose, all things window coverings.

so

Will Hanke (33:24)
Yeah,

yeah, and it’s massive. I’m blown away how big it is.

Joe Estrada (33:27)
It is.

Yeah, no, absolutely. It’s again, I think it’s really cool that it’ll be kind of centrally located in Indianapolis and the fact that it moves around to different locations throughout the country is is a huge advantage, I think.

Will Hanke (33:41)
Yeah.

Yeah. So what are you most excited about in the months ahead?

Joe Estrada (33:46)
Yes, motionblinds for sure. We are incredibly bullish on that side of our business and where we want to go with that. ⁓ Here in the Midwest, for me, there’s a ton of opportunity on the motion blind side just because we’re still a relatively newer region for Coulisse . We’re a 33-year-old

but we’ve only been in the US for about, call it 13-ish years, 13, 14 years. So the sky is still the limit for Coulisse all around the world, but especially here in the US.

So what we’re doing on the motion blind side and just on it with motorization in general, and we’ve got some stuff maybe in 2026, 2027 that’ll be coming out as well. Incredibly bullish on that side of our business, but on that side of the industry, I think you’ll see, I forget exactly what it was, but there was a link that was shared that I think it was some event with Apple.

where they spoke about Eve and they spoke about kind of smart home stuff and they had kind of a segment where they highlighted smart shade specifically as an industry. So ⁓ I think it’s as exciting of a time as ever to be in our industry and you’ll see a lot of cool stuff on display here in a few weeks and moving forward.

Will Hanke (34:57)
Yeah, that event is November 5 through 7 in Indianapolis and there are tickets available. We’ll put a link in our show notes below if anybody needs to get, grab some tickets, we’ll be able to do that. Love to talk just real quick about yourself a little bit. What’s something outside of work that keeps you creative and grounded?

Joe Estrada (35:03)
Yes.

Yeah.

grounded my friends and family that bust my chops constantly. So probably them, but no, I’m a husband, father, and a dog dad. Great group of friends, great group of colleagues. I would say you could add my colleagues to the bunch that keep me nice and grounded as well. ⁓ But as I get a little bit older, I’m playing less and less of the, you know, no more basketball and football. now golf is kind of my new obsession. ⁓

Will Hanke (35:23)
you

There you go.

⁓

Joe Estrada (35:45)
that,

that drives me nuts because just like most people that play it, I’m, not, I’m, I’m not all that good yet. So, ⁓ if I’m not doing that really just spending quality time with my friends and family. ⁓ I’m actually headed to, ⁓ to a wedding this weekend down in Cancun for, ⁓ me and one of me and my wife’s dearest friends, getting married down there.

Will Hanke (36:01)
Okay.

Joe Estrada (36:04)
So the older you get, the more responsibilities that are kind of thrown your way, the less of those types of opportunities you get. So, ⁓ I’m incredibly excited about that.

So and it’s a little sunnier down there than it is up here in Grand Rapids, Michigan this time of year. So just a touch.

Will Hanke (36:19)
Little bit. I’m headed

off to Miami next week for a conference, so it’ll be nice and warm there as well. ⁓

Joe Estrada (36:26)
Ah, yeah,

and hey, you know, while you’re down there, if you want to see the Miami is where our US headquarters is for Coulisse , if you want to see the office, the warehouse, the showroom, you let me know and we’ll get you set up for a nice tour down there and we’ll give you that. We’ll roll out the Coulisse red carpet for you. So.

Will Hanke (36:37)
nice.

That

would be great. What trends do you see like shaping the industry over the next three to five years?

Joe Estrada (36:49)
Motorization for sure, smart shades for sure. ⁓ It’s interesting kind of what’s happening in the exterior space,

right? Since COVID, I think a lot of people have jumped into that space and there’s a lot of cool stuff happening there. ⁓ But I think motorization and then AI as well, ⁓ not only just on like the actual product side, but how businesses are going to use AI to empower their employees. So I think a lot of people get a…

Will Hanke (36:59)
Yeah.

Joe Estrada (37:16)
you know, get kind of scared when they hear AI and how it may replace them. I think the better way of looking at it is like, how can you help it? How can you use AI to do your job even better and be even better at whatever it is that you do? So that’ll the effects will vary depending on what it is that you do. But I know at Coulisse we are kind of always looking to be trendsetters and stay ahead of the game, especially with new technologies. And it’s no different ⁓ with AI. So.

At our meetings last week, we got to learn a little bit about how our leadership and how our ownership is going to help empower us with AI and help us all do our jobs better and reach our goals by 2030 and beyond. So just kind of the, just like every industry, think right now it’s technology, it’s AI. In our industry, our company’s no different. So motionblinds for sure, Eve motionblinds. And then how we’re going to leverage AI to continue to grow Coulisse here, you know, in the States and abroad throughout the world.

Will Hanke (38:12)
I think that’s really smart of vendors to kind of embrace that. As a user of AI, an end user, I think you have to get over the fact that it is going to replace everything that you do. Once you kind of, there’s like a hump, right? Once you realize, oh, it can do that for me, oh, it can do this, then the whole world opens up and you’re like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.

Joe Estrada (38:29)
Yes.

Yeah, and you know, just kind of on the sales side or on the marketing side, I think it’s just gonna make the great sales reps and great marketing reps amazing. I think it’s gonna make the good great because you can just, you’ll get more output with the same or less input, right? So yeah, I think, hey, what could go right? What’s the pro here? Not just looking at all the cons. And how can you use this to do your job better and help your company? And again, I’m thankful that, you know.

our company is thinking forward for us and empowering us, hey, this is how you can use this to do your job better, to service your clients better.

So yeah, if you’re an existing client of Coulisse or you will be here shortly, I think you’ll see some of the things that we’re doing make your life much easier, much smoother. It’ll save everybody time and it’ll be a good thing moving forward. Absolutely.

Will Hanke (39:24)
Yeah.

Well, Joe, this has been a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. Before we wrap up, let’s tell listeners how they can connect with you and Coulisse . So what is the best way for them to learn more about Coulisse in general or connect with yourself?

Joe Estrada (39:28)
Yeah

Yeah, so on the Coulisse side of things, MotionBlinds.com first and foremost, that’s where you can learn more about our, again, everything we’re doing on the motorization side. You get a good feel for our branding as well, kind of how we position ourselves. So if you’re a dealer, designer, fabricator that wants to leverage that with your clients and have maybe a little bit of a unique offering in the market, you can get a feel on MotionBlinds.com and then Coulisse .com as well. So those are the two best places. If you have LinkedIn, Coulisse is very active on

LinkedIn, think just about daily posts going on. So you can always stay up to date with us there, at the trade shows like sun shading expo. We’ll, we’ll always be there. and then for myself, just, you know, my email, joe.estrada@coulisse.com

Will Hanke (40:13)
Thanks.

Joe Estrada (40:24)
and again, we have representatives all throughout the country, all throughout the world. So that that service their areas, you have local representation, that know their markets intimately.

And so no matter where you’re at, no matter at what point of the chain that you’re at, if you get in touch with us, we’ll get you in the hands of the right person and you help us sell more Coulisse

Will Hanke (40:45)
love that. Thanks again for being on the show. I think we’ve learned a lot, both about lease and trends that are going on, what you guys are focusing on. Any final thoughts for fabricators, dealers, or designers that want to stay ahead in this industry?

Joe Estrada (40:49)
Yeah

Yeah, don’t be so afraid of change, right? Our industry is changing a ton right now. I think embrace that. Find your lane, lean into your strengths. And if you’re looking for somebody that’s going to take a little bit more of a partnership approach, you know, a lot of the fabricators, they are family owned. That’s one thing that’s interesting. As a supplier, you know, we are also family owned. So I think there’s levels that we can connect with each other that might be a little bit different.

And if you feel stuck, if you feel like, I’m just, I’ve been doing the same thing for a while. It’s not yielding the results that I want. need something a little bit different, maybe a little bit fresher. Get in touch with us at Coulisse . We can show you at least what we can do. And then the decision is yours from there, whether or not you want to move forward. So, yeah, use us, use us for all the things that we have to offer. We’d love to be a partner if we’re not already.

Will Hanke (41:48)
Awesome. Well, that’s a wrap on today’s episode of Marketing Panes Huge thanks to Joe Estrada for joining us and sharing such valuable insights on innovation, modular systems, and smart shading tech. If this conversation gave you even one actionable idea, do us a favor.

Share it with a friend in the trade and subscribe so you don’t miss our next episode. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, iTunes, or at our website, Window Treatment Marketing Pros. Thanks for tuning in and we’ll see you next time on Marketing Panes.

Joe Estrada (42:22)
Thanks Will.

TRANSCRIPT

Will Hanke (00:00)
Welcome to another episode of marketing panes the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning professionals about their marketing, innovation and business growth. I’m your host, Will Hanke. And today we’re diving into the world of smart shading and innovation with guests who knows this space in and out. Our guest today is Joe Estrada, account manager at Coulisse distribution, serving the Northeast and Midwest regions of the U S.

Joe partners with custom windows shade fabricators to deliver innovative, high quality solutions, especially in smart shading through technology called MotionBlinds, which we’re gonna dig into a little bit today. With a focus on responsive service, long-term relationships, and empowering trade professionals, Joe helps clients stay competitive in a fast evolving industry. We’ll be talking about how technology is reshaping the market and

the evolution of modular systems, and what’s next for dealers and fabricators in the smart shade

era. Joe, thanks for being on the show today.

Joe Estrada (01:07)
Absolutely. Thanks for having me Will.

Will Hanke (01:09)
Yeah, glad to have you. So for listeners who don’t know yet, can you share a little bit about your background and what you do at Coulisse Distribution?

Joe Estrada (01:19)
Yeah, yeah, so you touched on it. So I’m a sales rep for Coulisse . I’ve been with the company just a little over a year and a half, coming up on almost two years now, serving primarily the Midwest and parts of the Northeast. So our team, we have coverage throughout the whole country here in the U.S. as well as Canada, and then making our way down to Central America and South America as well. So we have local representation in kind of every corner of the country.

and my portion is the Midwest and a few accounts of the Northeast as well.

Will Hanke (01:50)
Nice. I heard a rumor this was your first podcast.

Joe Estrada (01:54)
It is, it is. think I was joking with you. I, I’m about a daily listener of some kind of a podcast, especially when I’m traveling. but this is the first one that I’m on. So you’re you’re kind of like an adult Santa Claus, you know, Santa Claus for adults making my, little dream come true here. So thanks again.

Will Hanke (02:08)
⁓

too funny. What made you say yes for joining us today?

Joe Estrada (02:12)
Yeah, so ⁓ obviously having the opportunity to share some of the exciting things that we’re doing at Coulisse , especially in evolving landscape in our industry right now. And you guys, the R+T group, you yourself, have always been really, really ⁓ kind to us at Coulisse So when the opportunity presented itself, we felt we had to jump on top of it. I guess you guys are stuck with me. So.

Will Hanke (02:35)
Yeah. Well,

it’s great having you here today. So let’s talk a little bit about Coulisse . I’d love to know what sets Coulisse apart from the other component and fabric suppliers in the window treatment space.

Joe Estrada (02:49)
Yeah, yeah, so I would say one thing that’s kind of unique about us is we are a global one-stop shop. So whether it’s components, hardware, our collections, and our own motors, we are a true, we sell a true system. So obviously you can take the parts that you like if you don’t want or need the full system, but really the beauty in what Coulisse offers is our system approach. ⁓ And we’re going to dive a little bit deeper into that, but I would say that’s something that’s unique.

and then I think our look, our feel kind of our marketing, our branding is a little unique to us. I’m obviously a little biased, but I think we do that part of, the business really, really well. so yeah, a few things that we offer that are unique in that

sense.

Will Hanke (03:30)
Yeah, as a marketing guy, always paying attention to that and I see you guys everywhere. So you’re doing a great job there. Yeah, yeah, very good. Well, let’s jump in. I want to talk about the absolute roller. What is it? How does it serve as the foundation for your product lineup?

Joe Estrada (03:35)
Yeah. Yep. Thank you.

Yes, so we are absolute roller 2.0 system. That is it’s a modular concept, right? So the terms that our engineers like to use is it’s kind of like working with

Legos. So interchangeable components and hardware. You don’t have a right and left bracket, for example. And you can go from our essentially what, you know, for lack of a better term, our dumbest system, our chain manual operated system to our smartest motorized.

motion blind system just by removing the mechanism, the chain clutch mechanism or what some people would call a clutch and replacing it with our motor. So the tube sizes are the same, the deduction sizes are all the same. ⁓ So obviously that’s handy if you’re upgrading a shade that maybe somebody bought years ago or maybe they’re going to buy now if they’d like to upgrade at some point in the future. But it really makes it easy for the manufacturers to work with as well.

So a lot less SKUS and components to work with. ⁓ And obviously we have different sizes, whether it’s a small, medium, large size, depending on the configuration and the control. ⁓ But the modular concept of it makes it user friendly, not only for the fabricators or the manufacturers, but also the installers and then eventually the end users as well, especially when you’re talking motionblinds.

Will Hanke (05:04)
Yeah, and I can assume with that modular approach, the inventory management side of things is easier as well.

Joe Estrada (05:10)
Yep, yep. actually an introduction into our space last year, I got an opportunity to work on a bid for a company and they sent me the existing system that they were using and had said, hey, here’s all the components and hardware and everything that we buy, tell me what your equivalent would be and kind of how that would look differently.

And that’s when I really, the advantage of the modular concept kind of sunk in for me because we talk about it a lot internally.

But when you’re looking at a list of you know hundreds of components and SKUs and I’m using the same 30 40 50 SKUs essentially for the whole thing That’s when it really sunk into me like wow if I was owning the fabrication business ⁓ Especially everybody has a limit on space some some really big some small But everybody’s trying to make the most of the space that they have and they’re in their facility That’s a real big advantage to using a modular concept like what Coulisse offers

Will Hanke (06:04)
That’s great. What are the benefits for like dealers and workrooms when it comes to the system?

Joe Estrada (06:11)
Yeah, very similar. for dealers, it’s easy to install. So if the dealers are paired with the installers or have their own installers, our hardware is very, very easy to use. Again, you’re not worried about a right versus a left and having any errors or issues there that you have to fix. ⁓ For workrooms, it’s similar to a fabricator, right? Depending on where the workroom gets it or starts working at it on the product in the process. Again, fewer SKUs.

the tube sizes are all the same. ⁓ so yeah, you don’t have to familiarize yourself with a bunch of different series or systems all under our umbrella. You get used to that system and it’s a little bit easier to work with from there.

Will Hanke (06:54)
that’s great. I love that approach. I think it’s a lot easier for the end users, as you said, when it comes to figuring out what they need. And you’re probably cutting down on the amount of things that they have to order as well.

Joe Estrada (07:05)
Absolutely. Yep, just because there’s fewer SKUs ⁓ and then yeah, you really notice it with our motorized products because we have a QR code kind of system to set them up. So you don’t have to familiarize yourself with these elaborate, you know, softwares or apps. So if you’re not super techie, as long as you know how to use the camera on your phone and a QR code, which most people by now are pretty familiar with.

Will Hanke (07:30)
Yeah.

Joe Estrada (07:31)
You should be okay setting them up yourselves if you choose to do so. Obviously any installer that has a little bit of experience in our industry, it’s going to be easy for them too. So yeah.

Will Hanke (07:42)
That’s awesome. I’d love to kind of jump into the motorization since you mentioned that ⁓ it’s tech that’s turning heads across the industry, especially the motionblinds. So tell me a little bit about those.

Joe Estrada (07:56)
so anywhere you see Motion, it’s funny, so my first introduction to the industry was really at R+T Stuttgart last year. I hadn’t even been with the company, I don’t think two months, so talk about drinking from a fire hose as your first event. But I was really, really thankful for

Will Hanke (08:08)
Yeah.

Joe Estrada (08:12)
it,

and our booth was MotionBlinds branded. And so a lot of people kind of came over and said, hey, we heard the Coulisse booth is over here, know, where are you guys? And we’re like, you’re right here.

So when you see motionblinds, that is just Coulisse ‘s motorization line, right? That is our own brand of motorization. So we have our regular Bluetooth motors that have been around for a handful of years now for a while that everybody’s probably really familiar with. And then we have our newer smart motors, our Eve motionblinds. So a lot of folks are probably familiar with what Eve is. If you walk into a Best Buy or Apple store, you’ll see their products. They’re like a smart home company, I would say.

So that, and then we do have a comprehensive wired motor program as well for kind of the contract space and the new build space. So a fully comprehensive line of motorization kind of no matter where you’re at as an end user, whether it’s just a homeowner or you’re building a new home, building a new building. So yes, and because of the nature of just scanning the QR code to set up your shades.

It’s 100 % data private, so you don’t have to create accounts, you don’t have to give up your email and phone number and address and rights to your first child, you just scan the QR code and go.

So again, kind of that user-friendly term is something you hear us throughout there a lot, but it’s not just something we talk about. Once you start playing with it, you really can feel the difference between maybe some of the other systems out there.

Will Hanke (09:33)
Yeah, I have some experience with that with some ⁓ security cameras at my house. You just you just shoot the QR code and it just pulls that right in really quick. Yeah.

Joe Estrada (09:41)
Exactly, exactly.

so and with so thanks for mentioning that well on the on the smart home process or conversation, our Eve motionblinds, those can be integrated into your smart home or your smart building. So they’re compatible with the Apple platform, Google, Amazon and Samsung. And our our motors are matter over thread. So matter is just essentially the smart language that a lot of these smart devices speak to each other.

And then the thread network is a mesh network. So the more wired or plugged in devices that you add to it, the stronger that network gets throughout a home or throughout a building. Whereas, you know, on Wi-Fi, the more you add to it, the more juice you’re sucking out of that network. you know, wireless shades don’t necessarily strengthen that network, but anything that’s plugged in or wired will. ⁓ So matter over thread is the system that our EVE

motionblinds work on.

Will Hanke (10:36)
Yeah, and I know Amazon does something similar to that with their sidewalk, ⁓ where multiple Alexis, for instance, talk to each other. That’s always nice to have that additional kind of boost.

Joe Estrada (10:48)
Yes, and you know, a lot of people think smart is just motorized, right? You can set a timer or set end limits. Really, what smart means is that your environment ⁓ can react without you needing to do anything, right? So you can set scenes or automations based on weather, time of day, ⁓ internal temperatures, the glare of the sun.

Your smart home works around you the way that you would want it without needing to do anything. That’s kind of what makes it smart. And so that’s kind of the key difference between a regular Bluetooth motor and say like the Eve MotionBlinds.

Will Hanke (11:21)
Yeah, I’ve mentioned on a lot of my podcasts and I’m kind of a smart home nerd. And when people come over to the house, they’re always like,

Joe Estrada (11:25)
Yep. Yep.

Will Hanke (11:29)
Whoa, that just happened.

So how do you think the smart piece is going to evolve in the next 12 months? Do you think it’s going to be optional for installs or you think more people are just going to want it?

Joe Estrada (11:30)
Hahaha

Yeah, that’s a great question.

I believe the timing is anybody’s best guess, right? We have kind of chosen to be on the front end of it. We kind of got out in front of this maybe a couple of years earlier than most. ⁓ Right now, it does seem pretty optional, right? But the more people that you talk to,

the more you realize smart homes are becoming kind of the norm for lot of people.

I was telling you, Will, we were in the Netherlands last week for our annual global sales meetings with Coulisse and our home office there in Enter.

And the eastern part of the Netherlands and on the way home I sat next to a guy who has a full smart home was familiar with matter-over-thread So that’s the first time that that’s happened where I’m just kind of striking up a conversation with somebody and they really know what’s going on so I would be surprised in the next 12 months 24 months 36 months that starts to become more of the norm and eventually whether it’s in a couple years five years ten years or more a Smart home is going to probably be

Will Hanke (12:25)
Okay.

Joe Estrada (12:42)
somewhat of the standard. And depending on all the estimates that you see out there, you know, by 2030, there’s some estimates that, you know, anywhere from a third to half of homes will be smart homes, at least have smart capabilities, right?

And smart shades are going to play a bigger and bigger part of that moving forward.

Will Hanke (13:03)
Yeah, when it comes to the smart shades, what do you think? What do you wish more dealers knew about those?

Joe Estrada (13:10)
Yes, ⁓ obviously, know, so like for our concept, for example, just by changing one clutch to a motor, not much about the shade is changing, but the revenue. So your average, you know,

your average cost per shade is going to go up usually by about three X, roughly, roughly speaking. And then typically your profit margins on a motor are a little bit better than, a chain clutch as well.

The chain manual operated shades are something that the really, really big guys do really well and they’ve done really well for a long time. And they have certain advantages that maybe some of the smaller fabricators or smaller work rooms just can’t reach like they can.

But motorized shades are still kind of, are still growing in our industry.

So not only can you raise the average price per shade and make yourself more revenue by selling the same amount of shades or hopefully more, obviously.

But there’s a lot of opportunity that’s out there for the taking. So it’s as we enter kind of a new landscape, there’s a lot of clients that are looking for something that they maybe wouldn’t have been interested in before because they already had a manual shade that came with the house or apartment that they bought or whatever.

But as more folks are looking for a motorized shade, that’s where a lot of opportunity is going to be there

to eat up those customers at a higher cost per shade and a higher profit margin from what we see with our clients.

Will Hanke (14:31)
Yeah.

Right. Yeah. As consumers get more into the smart home world like me, ⁓ we have obviously installers that are putting this stuff together and they kind of have to know what is going on. On the troubleshooting side, like what’s involved there? Is it easy to troubleshoot the motionblinds or is a lot of additional knowledge required?

Joe Estrada (14:53)
No, it’s very simple. every motor will or every motor I shade will come with a kind of a setup guide and a troubleshooting guide. And it’s usually just a handful of steps, right? If all else fails, if something’s wrong with your shade, you just reset it and reprogram it. And you can program our motors in three ways. So you can do it right from the shade itself, right from the motor. You can do it with the remote or you can do it from your phone with the app. So we like to give clients, dealers, designers, whoever’s programming that shade, the option to do it how they would like to.

Will Hanke (15:17)
Okay.

Joe Estrada (15:23)
And then we also have a relatively new motion blind chat bot that you can go on to as a consumer, a dealer, a designer, an installer, ask it your questions, or even follow some of the prompts to get specifically to the shade that you’re working with. And 80, 90 % of the questions that you have, that chat bot is going to be able to answer for you. Over time, the goal is 99.9 % of the questions, so.

Will Hanke (15:45)
That’s awesome.

Joe Estrada (15:49)
Just like any LLM, it’s being trained right now ⁓ and getting better by the day. And then obviously for fabricators, ⁓ they have their sales rep like myself, ⁓ based on where they’re at throughout the country or throughout the world that they can go to for, hey, I tried the chat bot, I’m trying to reset this thing. And for whatever reason, there’s still an issue, you can lean on your sales rep and we’ll help you out as well. luckily with the…

the user friendliness of the the motionblinds and just the entire system. We don’t get a lot of those calls because they usually kind of are able to self correct one way or another. And

then with the chat bot, that has really been a huge tool and we use it a lot internally too to kind of test it. You know, how accurate is this? And so far so good.

Will Hanke (16:33)
That’s huge. And that is leading edge stuff. I probably had three AI questions yesterday on different sales calls. Everybody’s starting to use it. Our clients are starting to get referrals from Chat GPT.

Joe Estrada (16:40)
Yeah. Yep.

Will Hanke (16:47)
So having that system in place, teaching it how to answer questions is just going to make the installers especially, or the dealers, that whole thing a lot easier for them.

Joe Estrada (16:56)
Yeah, and it’s funny you say that. I was just listening to a podcast the other day. there’s actually a lot of data that’s coming out that, especially the younger generation, so Gen Z and the really, really young millennials, a lot of us, if you’re looking for a service, a product, or whatever, a lot of times it would start on Google, right? A lot of those conversations or those prompts or those searches are now starting on chat GPT, like, hey.

I’m looking for the, I don’t know, the best motorized window dealer in Detroit, Michigan or whatever. Those prompts are now a lot of times starting from chat GPT. as I think just kind of a personal opinion, as you see those guys try to monetize their platform a little bit more, I’m sure you’ll see a lot more direct links or click to go check out that product that you just did your search for. So yeah, I think that’s just kind of.

a normal part of everyday life and will be more so moving forward.

Will Hanke (17:51)
Yeah, that’s awesome. ⁓ I know that you had mentioned that Coulisse is really committed to empowering fabricators instead of competing with them. ⁓ How does that look like in practice? What does that look

Joe Estrada (17:58)
Yep. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah. So we don’t have a retail outlet, right? So it’s funny at our shows, we always do an amazing job with our booth. Again, I’m biased, but if you’ve ever seen one, you know what I’m talking about. And we get people that come up to our to our booth constantly like, hey, these are awesome. Where’s your website? Can I order them right now? We don’t have a retail outlet per se. So we really empower our fabricators to be the the engine of us getting our products into the end user’s hands.

So, ⁓ you know, like we have the Sun Shading Expo coming up here in a few weeks in Indy, that first week of November. And it’s inevitable we’re going to get some dealer, designer, architect leads that come from that. And we refer those, preferably, to somebody locally in that community. So we’re pairing a local, call it dealer, with a local fabricator. It’s a win-win ⁓ of somebody that makes the certain system or shade that they’re looking for.

So we really empower our fabricators and are a true partner to them to try to help them grow their business because what’s good for them is obviously good for us too. ⁓ So everything we do, we kind of look through as the lens of a fabricator of how can we do things better or a custom workroom. ⁓ How can we do things better to help them do their business better and grow their revenue.

Will Hanke (19:07)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. In a world of direct to consumer pressure, ⁓ why is that B2B balance and loyalty so important for Coulisse ?

Joe Estrada (19:33)
Yeah, so, you know, it all starts with the partnerships and, know, a lot of these companies that we’re working with here in the US, our industry is a very, very old one,

right? Windows are very, very old. So there’s a lot of clients ⁓ or fabricators, workrooms that have done a really great job of building their own networks, right? Of dealers and designers. It’s taken sometimes several decades for them to build the ecosystem that they all have.

So by creating partnerships with them and getting our products to them,

we could take advantage of what they have built to a certain extent as opposed to trying to go right to the end user and try something new that we’ve never done

We kind of see it as we’re really good at what we do. We have a unique system that we can offer. And so now it’s just, hey, let’s get that system or at least parts of that system into the hands of as many workrooms and fabricators as possible. And that will eventually lead to more end users, more, you know,

architects, more building owners buying our products as a result of that as well.

Will Hanke (20:36)
Yeah, that’s a smart model. Any advice that you’d give to other supplier brands that are trying to balance growth with these strong relationships?

Joe Estrada (20:46)
Yes, so I mean, think at the end of the day, all comes down to, know, assuming you have a competitive product and a competitive price people buy from from people they like and trust,

right? So if you’re always the most likable and trustworthy one, ⁓ even if there’s bumps along the road and you create that true partnership relationship with your clients and vice versa, you’re going to lean on each

other, right? And look for solutions as opposed to, hey, here’s this problem.

Now what do we do? Well, we know what we’re going to do. We’re going to find a solution together that’s a win-win and move past it. And the other thing, I think you just focus on what you’re good at, right? Lean into what you’re really good at. Whether it’s a person or a company, we all have strengths and weaknesses maybe. ⁓ lean into what you’re good at.

And for us, that’s the B2B market. And our partners here in the US and all over the world.

have helped us grow our business in a really sustainable and meaningful way.

You know, we’re still owned by the same two brothers that started our company, know, 33 years ago now. And they’ve always kind of done things in a similar way just in terms of partnerships and relationships. And, you know, the results and the success speaks for itself.

Will Hanke (21:58)
I’d love to talk a little bit about inventory and supply. ⁓ You mentioned inventory levels are pretty strong right now, especially on fabrics and solar screens. What’s behind that strategy?

Joe Estrada (22:11)
Yeah, so that’s always kind of been the coolest way we, you know, there’s some nuance there, but we always try to keep at least six to 12 months or more of our key SKUs. So whether it’s our key fabric or our solar screen SKUs, our key motors, key components and hardware from the absolute roller system, you know, depending on who you talk to, you get a different number, but our on time delivery rate is anywhere from about 95 to 98 % here in the U S depending on the year. So that’s something that we’re really, really proud of. And

as certain things may be changing the industry and you see certain thought processes wanna get leaner and leaner on the inventory side for a various number of reasons, we’re kinda going the other way. And that’s really due to our leadership here in the Americas and our owners keeping their commitment to our clients where, ⁓ especially during COVID, everything got a little crazy, right? But a lot of people lost a lot of money and a lot of opportunities and created a whole lot of extra headache that…

that they maybe didn’t need just because of out of stocks and not having the inventory when your partners need it. So that’s something that, and our warehouse team is amazing. We have the right processes in place. So we’ve done a really great job of balancing, hey, you’d never want too much inventory, right? You have to move it, you have to sell it, and you don’t want wasted space. But we really, really have out of stocks. And if we do, it’s usually, it’s going to be here in a week or two. It’s not.

You know, I’ve heard some horror cases maybe six months or more. And at that point, if you’re the work room or the fabricator or the dealer, you’re going to have to reselect. And so if you have to reselect, ⁓ not only is that going to cause more headaches and issues, obviously,

but time kills deals. So the longer you stretch that, that, that deal or that opportunity out, the more chance there is for something to go awry and you lose that opportunity, which is just lost money, which we don’t want for anybody.

So,

Will Hanke (24:03)
Right. Right.

Joe Estrada (24:04)
Kudos to our leadership and to our owners for staying committed to doing things that way. And when you’re owned by the same guys that have built everything, I think it makes that easier to kind of stay true to that in the face of a number of issues kind of in and around our industry and the world globally.

Will Hanke (24:20)
Yeah. As a vendor, you’ve always got to play the balancing of the supply chain, right? you know, do you see, more people making purchasing decisions based on availability over brand loyalty now?

Joe Estrada (24:25)
Yep.

Absolutely, in both, but absolutely to the first point of availability. Just speaking for myself, my own clients, I know of a handful of opportunities that I think we would have, you know, I’d like to think we would have eventually gotten to have an opportunity at closing those deals. But some of them that are coming our way more and more because they’re recognizing the difference between us and maybe some others of being able to deliver.

on time at that, call it high 90 % rate where others can’t. And if it isn’t out of stock again, like it happens, right? It’s not a hundred percent, but if it’s a week or two, everybody can deal with that when it’s several months. That’s when it starts to become really, really challenging. So, just speaking for myself, I can, you know, just off the top of my head, I’m thinking of three or four opportunities that have come up this at the end of last year and this year so far, that I’m not sure we get them as quickly as we did. If not for,

essentially them trusting us to be able to deliver for them on time more than let’s say who we’re competing against. So yeah, there is a true business advantage to it. Absolutely.

Will Hanke (25:35)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah. So a lot of our listeners are dealers. How do you think they can learn from how Coulisse is approaching the supply chain and stocking differently today?

Joe Estrada (25:50)
Well, you’re dealers and designers love us, I think more than anybody, right? Because we just are our branding, our marketing is very, very good. Just our style. ⁓ It’s very, very, ⁓ I would say modern. It’s very, very fashionable. So ⁓ dealers, dealers and designers, designers, think love us as much as anybody. ⁓ So in terms of what they can learn from that, I think it’s just, again, kind of building that partnership approach and attacking it from a partnership approach, not being so transactional with everything.

and then leaning into what you’re good at and, being reliable, right?

Say what you’re going to do and then do what you’re going to say.

⁓ and I think Huliss does an amazing job at doing that. And it makes our job as a sales rep really easy because you know that what you’re telling your clients, you can actually stand on it and your, teammates are going to do what’s necessary behind you to make sure that what you’re telling them comes to fruition. So, having that team approach.

and just being reliable, no matter at what point of the chain of the process that you’re in, I think will yield really, really good results for you on the business side.

Will Hanke (26:56)
It’s great that you have that awesome support. mean, it sounds like you got a great job.

Joe Estrada (27:02)
⁓ I do. do our team, you know, again, kind of going back to Chris and Maurice, they’re the two brothers. ⁓ it, Coulisse feels like one big family. So we’re a global company. We’ve got offices all over the world and representation all over the world, but we were all just together, you know, in, in a small little farm town in Eastern Netherlands last year. And it feels like one big family. So, ⁓ if I ever need engineering’s help, if I ever need marketing’s help, if I ever need to contact the warehouse supply chain,

I know who to contact and who to get a hold of and they’re always willing to lend a helping hand. And when you’re a global operation, a lot of people working remotely, you’re traveling all over the place, you have clients all over the place. It’s impossible to do this thing well if you’re not doing it as a team. So very thankful as a salesperson, makes my job much easier, which I really appreciate.

Will Hanke (27:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, for

sure. Yeah. So speaking of staying stocked and ready, let’s look at where Coulisse will be showcasing these innovations next. You mentioned earlier the Sun Shading Expo. Tell me about what you guys are doing there.

Joe Estrada (28:06)
Yes, so we will have our ⁓ booth like we always do and we will have all of our products on display. So we kind of separate it by, you know,

we’ll have like a child safe by design table,

which I actually haven’t jumped into just yet. It’s a, you know, child safety has been a huge topic of conversation the last few years all around the world, but especially here in the U.S. So we have systems, mostly our twin pull, our balanced roller, our zero gravity system.

and our motionblinds obviously that are child safe by design, right? So you don’t need a tensioner device ⁓ or something additional to make it more child safe. We have those solutions as well for our manually operated shades, but we will have them all separated. So we’ll have a child safe by design table. We’ll have a motionblinds table. We’ll likely have a wired motor, a wired motionblinds table, some of our manual solutions. We’ll have our entire US. ⁓

fabric collection on display. And then we’ll have all the individual components, hardware, motors as well to kind of get as granular as we need to with a fabricator or installer or even a dealer maybe. ⁓ So whether you want to see the really pretty finished products that everybody comes over and wants to buy a bunch of right away, or you want to look at the little bits and pieces, we’ll have it all. ⁓ And we’ll have coffee, we’ll have water. I think in the afternoon we usually switch it to the good stuff, the beer and wine as well.

Will Hanke (29:31)
Okay.

Joe Estrada (29:31)
If you’re going to be at Sunshading Expo, you have to come see the Coulisse Booth

Will Hanke (29:35)
I guess I know where I’ll be in the afternoon. Any sneak peeks that you can share with the audience?

Joe Estrada (29:38)
That’s right. Yeah, that’s right.

Yes, so we do have something that’s new with Coulisse is our absolute silent program that we will be kind of rolling out, call it next year. ⁓ So the first part of that is a silent bracket for our cassette, our medium sized cassette system. ⁓ So what that is is with our motorized shades, everybody’s always trying to, hey, how do we make the system, especially if it’s in a ⁓

cassette or if it’s in ⁓ fascia, ⁓ how do we make it quieter? How can we make it ⁓ even more quiet for the end users, right? Especially if it’s in a bedroom or so. ⁓ We’re always making tweaks to the motors themselves to make them quieter and quieter. And then we also are going to have the bracket, for example, that’s for lack of a better term, enhanced with some additional ⁓ advantages on it. ⁓

that will help make the system quieter. ⁓ So eventually we’ll have a ⁓ silent crown and drive as well that can be included. So I kind of anticipate the silent components just kind of overtaking maybe some of the other components that we’ve sold previously for our motionblinds. ⁓ But again, we’re about giving clients the option so that option will stay there. I know I will be pushing my clients to use those silent components.

just to give the end user an even better experience, right? If it adds an extra 10, 15 % enjoyment and satisfaction to the end user’s experience, I think it’s worth it.

Will Hanke (31:20)
Yeah, you and I lucked

out this year because it’s in the Midwest. We don’t have far to go, right?

Joe Estrada (31:25)
That’s right. I know. I

know. I told, ⁓ I told our team down in Miami, bring their coats and their scarves and their winter hats. So I’ll have some, I’ll have some hot cocoa waiting for them when they get up North. ⁓ and then the, the, the other thing too, sorry, we’ll is, we’ll have our wired motors. we have kind of a new comprehensive wired motor program, mostly for the contract market, but also for the residential market, especially a new build. We’ll have those on display as well. So if you’ve always, you know, if you’re an existing client with Coulisse .

Will Hanke (31:31)
Right?

Yeah.

Joe Estrada (31:53)
You’ve always wanted to work with Coulisse so you’re just interested in what we are doing on the wired motor side. Come stop by and we can show you that new program as well.

Will Hanke (32:01)
Yeah, so definitely stop by the booth for some goodies and ⁓ what’s going on. Why do you think the Sun Shading Expo is important to our industry right now?

Joe Estrada (32:05)
That’s right.

One, you can, know, especially we were talking about AI earlier, I think more and people are working remotely, myself included. No matter what, it’s still a people business. It’s still kind of a contact sport, right? So anything that gets people together from the industry, you’re going to have fun, right? But you’re also going to make a lot of progress on the business side. You can exchange ideas. ⁓ It’s kind of good to see, hey, what’s our competition doing, right? That’s a great opportunity for us to see what they’re doing. What are they highlighting? ⁓ But it’s a…

One place where you can meet clients, you can meet prospects, you can get in front of new people that maybe don’t know as much about you, or who, you hey, you always get the most out of who and what somebody is in person. ⁓ And then all the different learnings that are available, right? I’m new to the industry, so anybody that’s new, there’s a lot to learn. ⁓

Even though the industry feels smaller and smaller by the day, there’s still a lot to learn, not only about, you know, your own stuff.

but what everybody else is doing as well. So if you want to crash course and to be incredibly efficient, a trade show like Sun Shading Expo, there’s no better place to be for a week to again, kind of drink from a fire hose, all things window coverings.

so

Will Hanke (33:24)
Yeah,

yeah, and it’s massive. I’m blown away how big it is.

Joe Estrada (33:27)
It is.

Yeah, no, absolutely. It’s again, I think it’s really cool that it’ll be kind of centrally located in Indianapolis and the fact that it moves around to different locations throughout the country is is a huge advantage, I think.

Will Hanke (33:41)
Yeah.

Yeah. So what are you most excited about in the months ahead?

Joe Estrada (33:46)
Yes, motionblinds for sure. We are incredibly bullish on that side of our business and where we want to go with that. ⁓ Here in the Midwest, for me, there’s a ton of opportunity on the motion blind side just because we’re still a relatively newer region for Coulisse . We’re a 33-year-old

but we’ve only been in the US for about, call it 13-ish years, 13, 14 years. So the sky is still the limit for Coulisse all around the world, but especially here in the US.

So what we’re doing on the motion blind side and just on it with motorization in general, and we’ve got some stuff maybe in 2026, 2027 that’ll be coming out as well. Incredibly bullish on that side of our business, but on that side of the industry, I think you’ll see, I forget exactly what it was, but there was a link that was shared that I think it was some event with Apple.

where they spoke about Eve and they spoke about kind of smart home stuff and they had kind of a segment where they highlighted smart shade specifically as an industry. So ⁓ I think it’s as exciting of a time as ever to be in our industry and you’ll see a lot of cool stuff on display here in a few weeks and moving forward.

Will Hanke (34:57)
Yeah, that event is November 5 through 7 in Indianapolis and there are tickets available. We’ll put a link in our show notes below if anybody needs to get, grab some tickets, we’ll be able to do that. Love to talk just real quick about yourself a little bit. What’s something outside of work that keeps you creative and grounded?

Joe Estrada (35:03)
Yes.

Yeah.

grounded my friends and family that bust my chops constantly. So probably them, but no, I’m a husband, father, and a dog dad. Great group of friends, great group of colleagues. I would say you could add my colleagues to the bunch that keep me nice and grounded as well. ⁓ But as I get a little bit older, I’m playing less and less of the, you know, no more basketball and football. now golf is kind of my new obsession. ⁓

Will Hanke (35:23)
you

There you go.

⁓

Joe Estrada (35:45)
that,

that drives me nuts because just like most people that play it, I’m, not, I’m, I’m not all that good yet. So, ⁓ if I’m not doing that really just spending quality time with my friends and family. ⁓ I’m actually headed to, ⁓ to a wedding this weekend down in Cancun for, ⁓ me and one of me and my wife’s dearest friends, getting married down there.

Will Hanke (36:01)
Okay.

Joe Estrada (36:04)
So the older you get, the more responsibilities that are kind of thrown your way, the less of those types of opportunities you get. So, ⁓ I’m incredibly excited about that.

So and it’s a little sunnier down there than it is up here in Grand Rapids, Michigan this time of year. So just a touch.

Will Hanke (36:19)
Little bit. I’m headed

off to Miami next week for a conference, so it’ll be nice and warm there as well. ⁓

Joe Estrada (36:26)
Ah, yeah,

and hey, you know, while you’re down there, if you want to see the Miami is where our US headquarters is for Coulisse , if you want to see the office, the warehouse, the showroom, you let me know and we’ll get you set up for a nice tour down there and we’ll give you that. We’ll roll out the Coulisse red carpet for you. So.

Will Hanke (36:37)
nice.

That

would be great. What trends do you see like shaping the industry over the next three to five years?

Joe Estrada (36:49)
Motorization for sure, smart shades for sure. ⁓ It’s interesting kind of what’s happening in the exterior space,

right? Since COVID, I think a lot of people have jumped into that space and there’s a lot of cool stuff happening there. ⁓ But I think motorization and then AI as well, ⁓ not only just on like the actual product side, but how businesses are going to use AI to empower their employees. So I think a lot of people get a…

Will Hanke (36:59)
Yeah.

Joe Estrada (37:16)
you know, get kind of scared when they hear AI and how it may replace them. I think the better way of looking at it is like, how can you help it? How can you use AI to do your job even better and be even better at whatever it is that you do? So that’ll the effects will vary depending on what it is that you do. But I know at Coulisse we are kind of always looking to be trendsetters and stay ahead of the game, especially with new technologies. And it’s no different ⁓ with AI. So.

At our meetings last week, we got to learn a little bit about how our leadership and how our ownership is going to help empower us with AI and help us all do our jobs better and reach our goals by 2030 and beyond. So just kind of the, just like every industry, think right now it’s technology, it’s AI. In our industry, our company’s no different. So motionblinds for sure, Eve motionblinds. And then how we’re going to leverage AI to continue to grow Coulisse here, you know, in the States and abroad throughout the world.

Will Hanke (38:12)
I think that’s really smart of vendors to kind of embrace that. As a user of AI, an end user, I think you have to get over the fact that it is going to replace everything that you do. Once you kind of, there’s like a hump, right? Once you realize, oh, it can do that for me, oh, it can do this, then the whole world opens up and you’re like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.

Joe Estrada (38:29)
Yes.

Yeah, and you know, just kind of on the sales side or on the marketing side, I think it’s just gonna make the great sales reps and great marketing reps amazing. I think it’s gonna make the good great because you can just, you’ll get more output with the same or less input, right? So yeah, I think, hey, what could go right? What’s the pro here? Not just looking at all the cons. And how can you use this to do your job better and help your company? And again, I’m thankful that, you know.

our company is thinking forward for us and empowering us, hey, this is how you can use this to do your job better, to service your clients better.

So yeah, if you’re an existing client of Coulisse or you will be here shortly, I think you’ll see some of the things that we’re doing make your life much easier, much smoother. It’ll save everybody time and it’ll be a good thing moving forward. Absolutely.

Will Hanke (39:24)
Yeah.

Well, Joe, this has been a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. Before we wrap up, let’s tell listeners how they can connect with you and Coulisse . So what is the best way for them to learn more about Coulisse in general or connect with yourself?

Joe Estrada (39:28)
Yeah

Yeah, so on the Coulisse side of things, MotionBlinds.com first and foremost, that’s where you can learn more about our, again, everything we’re doing on the motorization side. You get a good feel for our branding as well, kind of how we position ourselves. So if you’re a dealer, designer, fabricator that wants to leverage that with your clients and have maybe a little bit of a unique offering in the market, you can get a feel on MotionBlinds.com and then Coulisse .com as well. So those are the two best places. If you have LinkedIn, Coulisse is very active on

LinkedIn, think just about daily posts going on. So you can always stay up to date with us there, at the trade shows like sun shading expo. We’ll, we’ll always be there. and then for myself, just, you know, my email, joe.estrada@coulisse.com

Will Hanke (40:13)
Thanks.

Joe Estrada (40:24)
and again, we have representatives all throughout the country, all throughout the world. So that that service their areas, you have local representation, that know their markets intimately.

And so no matter where you’re at, no matter at what point of the chain that you’re at, if you get in touch with us, we’ll get you in the hands of the right person and you help us sell more Coulisse

Will Hanke (40:45)
love that. Thanks again for being on the show. I think we’ve learned a lot, both about lease and trends that are going on, what you guys are focusing on. Any final thoughts for fabricators, dealers, or designers that want to stay ahead in this industry?

Joe Estrada (40:49)
Yeah

Yeah, don’t be so afraid of change, right? Our industry is changing a ton right now. I think embrace that. Find your lane, lean into your strengths. And if you’re looking for somebody that’s going to take a little bit more of a partnership approach, you know, a lot of the fabricators, they are family owned. That’s one thing that’s interesting. As a supplier, you know, we are also family owned. So I think there’s levels that we can connect with each other that might be a little bit different.

And if you feel stuck, if you feel like, I’m just, I’ve been doing the same thing for a while. It’s not yielding the results that I want. need something a little bit different, maybe a little bit fresher. Get in touch with us at Coulisse . We can show you at least what we can do. And then the decision is yours from there, whether or not you want to move forward. So, yeah, use us, use us for all the things that we have to offer. We’d love to be a partner if we’re not already.

Will Hanke (41:48)
Awesome. Well, that’s a wrap on today’s episode of Marketing Panes Huge thanks to Joe Estrada for joining us and sharing such valuable insights on innovation, modular systems, and smart shading tech. If this conversation gave you even one actionable idea, do us a favor.

Share it with a friend in the trade and subscribe so you don’t miss our next episode. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, iTunes, or at our website, Window Treatment Marketing Pros. Thanks for tuning in and we’ll see you next time on Marketing Panes.

Joe Estrada (42:22)
Thanks Will.

Guests Profile: Joe Kendall

President – Made in the Shade Eastern Shore

Owns Kendall furniture , Made in the shade dealer went from 58th place, to 5th place, to second place and in 2024 #1 Volume dealer in North America

Ryan Gilberts

Owner of Shaded Window Coverings

With over a decade in the window covering industry, Ryan launched Shaded Window Coverings in 2022 to bring his vision to life. Starting as an installer and moving into sales, he quickly mastered the business and took the leap to entrepreneurship. Now, nearly three years later, his company is thriving, recently securing a six-figure project for 1,900 shades in a new apartment complex.

Other Notes/Links:

To learn more about

Joe Kendall visit:

MITS Eastern Shore

Ryan Gilberts visit:

Shaded Window Coverings

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

Listen to other episodes

Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhI2cJpxIu8&ab_channel=WindowTreatmentMarketingPros

Click here to display Transcript Transcript

Will Hanke (00:00)
All right, everyone. Welcome to another episode of marketing panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their strengths, about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today is our Q2 preview. We’re going to talk about what happened in Q1. We’re going to talk about what we think is coming up in Q2. I’ve got two guests with some great insights that I’m excited to interview.

First of all, we got Joe Kendall, president

of Made in the Shades Eastern Shore. Joe owns Kendall Furniture, a Made in the Shade dealership. He went from 58th place to fifth place in the Made in the Shade franchise, then second place, and in 2002, 2024 became the number one volume dealer in North America. Joe, thanks for being on the show today.

Ryan Gilberts (00:31)
Okay.

Joe Kendall (00:40)
you

You’re very welcome. We’re happy to be here.

Will Hanke (00:57)
Thank you.

We’ve also got Ryan Gilbert’s Ryan owns Shaded Window Coverings in Montana. Shaded Shaded Window Covering started in May 2022 after Ryan was working for some other businesses in the window covering industry over the last 10 years. He wanted to. He first started in the industry as a part time installer, then moved to lead installer position and eventually a hybrid role of installer and salesperson.

Ryan Gilberts (00:58)
you

Will Hanke (01:27)
Now almost

three years later, there’s really no turning back. He’s just started his largest sixth figure project, 1900 shades for an apartment building under construction. Ryan, thank you for joining as well.

Ryan Gilberts (01:39)
Thanks, Will.

Will Hanke (01:40)
1900 so you’re going be a little bit busy I guess for at least the next couple days right?

Ryan Gilberts (01:44)
Fortunately, it’s being built out in stages.

Will Hanke (01:46)
Awesome. Yeah, that’s great. Congrats on that. So I want to start by talking about some different industry trends. What emerging trends are you guys seeing in the industry right now? And how can other window treatment dealers kind of align with these trends to stay competitive?

Joe Kendall (02:02)
Ryan, think what you’re doing is, Ryan and I spoke a little bit beforehand, Will, and we really love that the exterior market is exploding. you need to make sure you’re talking to your clients because they don’t know all the cool things you know as far as that goes. I was talking to Ryan and we were discussing how you might go into a customer wants to get some roller shades up on four windows that are consecutive.

Ryan Gilberts (02:12)
Yeah.

Joe Kendall (02:28)
And you leave the house with an exterior roller shade motorized. their beautiful in-tort, their trim on the inside is left alone. It’s gorgeous. And they can have that true builder look, but yet get the results they need when they need them. I think the exterior, and people, great too. I think they expect to pay more for exterior blinds.

And it’s with the warranties that some of these manufacturers are offering, it’s really a great way to go.

Ryan Gilberts (02:55)
Yeah, I got to agree on that too, but.

Will Hanke (02:57)
Yeah, I like that.

Ryan, are you seeing something similar?

Ryan Gilberts (02:59)
So yeah, I mean I like the exterior products They’re definitely a little bit more sleek, but they’re definitely a touch more expensive than some people anticipate But the cool thing is there’s a vast majority of dealers or I should say vendors that are starting to manufacture those and get into the market so I Don’t think price points all gonna be all that

Will Hanke (03:21)
I know when we talked with some of our guests on the Q1 podcast that we had talked about, they mentioned the luxury buyers are really popping up more. Are you guys seeing that as well?

Ryan Gilberts (03:32)
Absolutely.

Joe Kendall (03:33)
yeah. Yeah. Our average ticket for the last six months is up about 15%.

Will Hanke (03:38)
Okay.

Joe Kendall (03:38)
You know, we were in the $4,400 average ticket. We’re now in that a hair over 5,000, 5,200 area, which I think is just people are buying nicer stuff.

Will Hanke (03:48)
Yeah, I think that’s a great point. when I started in this industry as the marketing guy, about seven years ago, we niche down specifically just to the window treatment and awning industry. The average job was 2,500, 3,000. So obviously part of that is, I guess you could say inflation, but also I think it’s just people are buying better quality stuff.

Ryan Gilberts (04:03)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Kendall (04:11)
And, you know, there was always… Go ahead, Ryan, I’m sorry.

Ryan Gilberts (04:11)
Absolutely.

no, I was just saying absolutely. But I would probably say a year ago, I kind of crossed over that bridge with Hunter Douglas and became one of their dealers. But I will say that going into that bridge and are going into that realm of the market and being able to offer those very high quality products, my ticket sales have definitely increased tremendously. And I’m also getting a lot of those larger ticket deals and showing them.

The cool stuff, I guess you can say.

Joe Kendall (04:40)
You know, and I train, we have two full-time salespeople. I still train them and remind them of the famous, you know, Bloomingdale’s three bread maker stories about a good, better, best versus just a good or a best. And, you know, I encourage my people that when they’re presenting a product, and let’s say they’re talking about a Roman shade or they’re talking about a roller shade, and you pop out a Hunter Douglas vignette, you know, I’m a big believer in telling the client straight up,

hey, this is a more expensive product. There’s a decent chance, you the average salesperson might think, God, they’re going to be bummed. But really they go, cool, this is what I want. And I always like to tell people, because obviously if a roller shade was $49, we’d sell everybody we talked to. But not being afraid of the more expensive products and sharing with your customer, hey look.

Ryan Gilberts (05:18)
Okay.

.

Joe Kendall (05:32)
This is

a more expensive product, but let me tell you why and what you get. And then it’s like, well, this makes perfect sense. selling higher up, it takes work. But if you do it right, it really, really can pay off.

Ryan Gilberts (05:37)
Okay.

I gotta agree with you on that. Definitely education with your customers or clients is I think gonna make you stand above the crowd and definitely show your worth and then also get those larger ticket items.

Joe Kendall (05:56)
Definitely, definitely.

Will Hanke (05:57)
I love the idea of upselling, right? You already got them on the hook. Now if you can walk out with 10 % more than you thought you’d get or something like that, it’s a fantastic growth strategy for your business.

Joe Kendall (06:08)
You know, I’m going to share a quick story if I could, Will. When I first started selling 30 years, 35 years ago, I was selling roofs and my closing ratio was excellent, but my gross profit was just barely average. So the owner says, Joe, I want you to go out to dinner tonight with Zeke, who’s our highest profit guy. makes a thousand dollars or more than you a week. He’s going to teach you how to sell higher. And I was like, my God, this is going to change everything.

We go out to happy hour drinking, long story short, we get to midnight, we’re at 7-Eleven, we’ve had some cocktails. And I said, Zeke, we’re gonna be in deep trouble, you didn’t train me tonight. And we ran up the owner’s credit card. So Zeke can barely stand up and he asked the cashier, says, for a napkin and a pen. And I said, sure. So Zeke goes, here you go, on a 20 square roof, what’s your opening price? I said, well, I usually start around 4,200.

Zeke burps up some beer and says, okay, try it again, but this time instead of writing a four down, write a five. And the moral of story is just open up a little higher and you’ll get more, it’ll make a higher sale. It’s that simple. Just start a little higher. And I always remind people you can’t go up, but you can go down. So that’s one of my favorite training stories.

Will Hanke (07:17)
I love that you were able to write the night off on the.

Joe Kendall (07:19)
You

So.

Will Hanke (07:20)
Draining

Cool, that’s great. I love to hear that so Quick disclaimer both of you guys are clients of window treatment marketing pros So you guys are obviously, you know doing the SEO stuff doing the paid ads. I wanted to talk a little bit more about professional connections Local networking those kinds of things. What are you guys doing in that area to help generate leads and maybe even longer-term relationships?

Joe Kendall (07:49)
Go ahead, Ryan.

Ryan Gilberts (07:50)
To generate leads, mean, I’m talking to the sphere of people that I hang out with. I’m pretty fortunate with the area in Montana that I’m at. We have a lot more cattle than we do people. So the people that I’m dealing with are going to be a lot of business owners. The 1900 shade project that I got was due to one of my good buddies that is doing all the dirt work for this project. He just simply sent a text and said, who does all your shades?

call this guy. So it’s, really the sphere of people that I’m dealing with, but also kind of going back to what Joe was just saying about getting those higher ticket items, dealing with those larger, more expensive products. It’s actually the word of mouth of those people. You know, I’m, I’m giving them good, good solid products, great service, and they’re just talking to more people. As far as the marketing aspect goes that you can actually

pinpoint where your dollars are going. I still do local marketing. I don’t know if you guys have Valpac over on the East Coast or what have you, but Valpac is one of them. I am in with a lot of magazines for top realtors and also in magazines that just strictly market the top 1 % of homeowners in the area. And I also do TV commercials.

Joe Kendall (09:02)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s the old saying that, you know, half of my advertising works. I just don’t know which half, but I know this plug for Will, Will’s works. So without a doubt, one of the things I’m going to we’re talking to people in the industry. I simply for sake of a better term, pay off real estate agents that are sitting in a new neighborhood.

Will Hanke (09:02)
Okay, Joe.

Ryan Gilberts (09:12)
Yep.

Joe Kendall (09:23)
It’s just what I do. There’s a neighborhood and I went and talked to them and gave them. There’s a great restaurant company in town that has about 10 awesome restaurants. One gift card. I gave them each a $500 gift card. people might think that’s a lot, but all I got to do is get one purchase and I’m even. And I love giving that gift so big.

that now they feel guilty. Like they have to get me referrals now. You know, they’re the ones that are like, my God. So I love real estate agents. Word of mouth is the big thing. I love taking every service call that we should charge a hundred bucks for and not charging them and telling the people we should charge you. But if you get me a referral, you meet somebody who’s talking about window coverings, just make sure you pass my name along.

Ryan Gilberts (09:56)
Mm-hmm.

Joe Kendall (10:06)
Since you saved them 200 bucks, now they feel the guilt where they, gosh, we gotta find Joe a referral. So I love doing that. One thing too, this is gonna be the, well, the basketball going on. You’ve heard like, you know, the five star lock of the week, the team you have to bet on. Here’s my five star lock of the week, Will. Change how you respond to five star reviews. Don’t say thank you. Don’t say, well, obviously say thank you.

but use that review time, the response, to sell. Hey, we really love Tom the installer, he was great. Hey, that’s awesome. Tom, like all of our installers, is completely certified and has been with us for X amount of time. Tom’s been through four certifications in XYZ and loves his job. Thank you for mentioning him. So when people are reading that, they go, shit, these guys got good people. Or, wow, I love the shutters.

And don’t forget, all of our products have a lifetime warranty. So if you have a problem, please call us. Put in your responses to your Google reviews. Selling words, you know, hey, I’m so happy we could get that installed within your quick timeline. Oh, they do stuff quick. So people are reading their reviews, but they’re also going to review, read your responses. So that’s my 50 star pointer.

Will Hanke (10:56)
You

Joe Kendall (11:18)
I guess of this podcast is to change how you do your reviews and will do not use AI to do it for you. Be personal that you can be more personal. And again, though, you can you can sell. You got a chance because people are going to read reviews, so make them read stuff that you want to tell them. That’s all.

Will Hanke (11:35)
Yeah,

I love that it’s a missed opportunity if you just say thank you.

Ryan Gilberts (11:36)
Let me touch base on that.

Let me touch base on that review. I love it. I’m a very personable person when it comes to my reviews. give, you know, hey, Cheryl, thank you so much for the great review. It’s been extraordinary working with you, getting your automated roller shades or automated honeycomb shades up for you. But it’s also and I only have one of these a four star review. It’s how you respond to those.

I mean, so I’ve been in business for a short time. I, 2022 customer gave me a four star review because I, well, it freezes here and my spackle was frozen that morning to fill in the old screw holes of his vertical blind. That’s why I got a four star review. I responded back with, let me, let me come and earn that fifth star. He never, he never changed his review, but he’s bought four more times since then.

Joe Kendall (12:03)
Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

Ryan Gilberts (12:31)
stuff.

That fourth star haunts me.

Will Hanke (12:33)
That’s awesome. I love that. That’s great. And I love the idea of being personal about it, you know, and replying to each of those individually. AI can get a little dry on it. Obviously also an opportunity to use certain keywords and locations. You know, we really enjoyed installing the window treatments in your Chesterfield home, you know, something like that where it doesn’t violate any privacy type stuff, but

Joe Kendall (12:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

You

Will Hanke (12:59)
you do get the name of the place in there as well.

Joe Kendall (13:02)
Mention in the neighborhood, Will. Good point, good point.

Will Hanke (13:04)
Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. So I want to talk a little bit about expansion. So when it comes to reaching out in your particular area, you know, have a little bit of an advantage because you’re located in that area. And especially Ryan, I’m assuming in Montana, cities are maybe a little bit further apart than they are for Joe. Right. So so how do you handle

expansion or driving a certain distance tell us about that.

Ryan Gilberts (13:31)
Yeah, I I probably cover a two hour span from my location around. So I try to group all my appointments. Sometimes it works out, but I mean, hey, I’ll go over to this part of the neck of the woods and we’ll get a few appointments done that day. We’ll go over to next part of the neck of the woods.

So we’ll do that, but I mean, we’re getting a lot more. You can go into the bigger cities and I call them the cities, but you know, it’ll be a little bit more.

solid people like you can walk through neighborhoods and things like that still. It’s not, you know, you’re not going on a 40 acre ranch or a 3000 acre ranch and every every house that you go to. A lot of the communities that we’re in, they are going to be in your, would say eight, 900,000 to a million and a half dollar homes when they’re in neighborhoods like that. So

Will Hanke (14:15)
Yeah.

Ryan Gilberts (14:27)
They are typically a solid appointment.

Will Hanke (14:29)
I like that. I like how you stack them together, know, do a couple in one area. Yeah, especially when you’re traveling that far.

Joe Kendall (14:32)
Yeah, you have to,

Ryan Gilberts (14:32)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

For sure. For sure.

Will Hanke (14:38)
Yeah, Joe, what about you? Obviously, things are a little bit more compact in your area. I know you just added another location. Tell us about that.

Joe Kendall (14:42)
Yep, yep.

So we added a second location. The way our town is set up, our area is set up is we’re up against the Atlantic Ocean. So we do half circles. We don’t do full circles, you know? But there’s a really wealthy part, and I opened up on the street to that wealthy neighborhood area.

Will Hanke (14:56)
you

Joe Kendall (15:04)
with the idea of getting some stop in traffic and things like that. And we’re also showing higher end goods there. We’re not showing faux blinds in that location. So far so good. We’re making the so-called nut. But it’s like anything. It’s repetition, repetition, customers seeing and hearing about your name and so forth.

One nice thing I love about the Maiden the Shade is it’s purple and gray with a tint of yellow. So purple signs kind of stand out a little bit. But it’s a classic, you know.

A lot of people who are, nothing wrong with this, but who are trunk slammers and they want to go to that first store. You know, I was mentoring a Made in the Shade dealer and I was like, what hours are you going to be open before you expand? And they said, we’re going to go a nine to two and be closed on Saturday and Sunday. And my response was either going to be a retailer or you’re not going to be a retailer. And retailers are open seven days a week.

and depending on your town, till seven o’clock at night. And they’re like, oh, we don’t want to do all that. And I was like, well, then you don’t want to have a store. You don’t want to become a retailer. So I don’t know, if that was more what you were thinking about, like when to expand and so forth. For us, I looked at it like an advertising spend. It’s going to cost me $5,000 a month to have that store.

with the people and everything and I figured well hell $5,000 a month a billboard is in my neighborhood is $1,500 a month so it’s like buying two or three billboards but I’ll have a physical person I’ll be on the main drag so there’s a lot to think about before expansion obviously but

Will Hanke (16:40)
Sure.

Yeah, but there’s the nice thing about the window treatment industry is the average job is fairly high as we mentioned earlier. So it doesn’t take a lot to make that money back.

Joe Kendall (16:50)
No, no, no.

Will Hanke (16:51)
That’s great. Yeah. So I want to talk to you guys a little bit about partnerships, collaborations. Is there anything that you guys are doing that would be beneficial to the listeners around similar to what you said, Joe, with the real estate people in anything else like that?

Joe Kendall (17:08)
If there’s new construction in your area, get after those agents that are sitting in the house. That’s your bread and butter. Hey, hi Will, it’s nice to meet you. How long you been with NVR Homes? Hey, where’s your place? Do you have plantation shutters? Would you like to get plantation shutters? And I always say, hey, know, my manufacturer gives me some leeway on some sample products.

I love to put some sample products in 10 of your windows. We’ve done that before for people and put plantation shutters in their house. That was in the neighborhood that we got 23 jobs from. It’s just the best $3,000 I ever spent. So I’m a big believer in the real estate agents. I’m a big believer in having someone like Will do your Google buy.

I respond, Will will ask me a question, and I’ll say, Will, you’re the pro, buddy. It’s working so far. Don’t ask me. You got that covered. But that’s my one thing I would say is that’s where it’s at. a $100 gift card or a $50 gift card doesn’t do anything. Go to $500. That’s my tip of the day, second tip of the day.

Will Hanke (18:10)
You

Ryan Gilberts (18:11)
What? I’ll go off that. There’s an organization here in town called MOR for Kids, so Missoula Organization of Realtors, and it’s a nonprofit for kids. And I am the only window covering person in that organization. And I reach 800 realtors. There’s 800 realtors in the Missoula account.

Joe Kendall (18:26)
Oof.

Ryan Gilberts (18:28)
It’s just insane. But I’m the one window covering guy and I’m there competing in all their nonprofit organizations and it’s fun for me. We do a charity kickball tournament. We do a charity golf tournament and we do a winter gala. I get the most donations in the kickball tournament. My team typically always wins in the golf tournament. And last year,

I spent the most at the charity and I got the most awards.

So that’s kind of how I shotgun blast my name out there.

Will Hanke (18:55)
Fantastic.

Joe Kendall (18:58)
Yep, I love it.

Will Hanke (18:59)
That’s really cool. love that collaboration.

Ryan Gilberts (18:59)
They all call me Shady Ryan

for a reason.

Joe Kendall (19:01)
I love it. like that. Shady Ryan. I like that.

Will Hanke (19:04)
That’s great. And

at the end of the day, you’re supporting something, right? So there’s that whole PR side of things too, where you can get a little bit of that out there.

Ryan Gilberts (19:12)
Exactly.

Joe Kendall (19:12)
That’s, and

Ryan’s right on with, what’s your Realtor Association name, Ryan?

Ryan Gilberts (19:18)
M-O-R.

Joe Kendall (19:18)
The moon. OK. So we have the Coastal Association of Realtors. Here you go. Every town you’re in has an association of realtors and you can be what’s called a whatever kind of member you are, Ryan. It’s not accessory member, but it has a name. That means you’re not a realtor. Thank you very much, Ryan. Yeah, you’re an affiliate member. you get and with that, Ryan, you also get right emails, phone numbers for everybody, every realtor in town.

Ryan Gilberts (19:19)
Mozilla organization of realtors.

an affiliate.

Yep, exactly.

Joe Kendall (19:43)
So

lots of marketing you can do with that.

Will Hanke (19:45)
Wow, that’s awesome. So cool, we talked to… Go ahead.

Ryan Gilberts (19:46)
and also building industry associations.

Joe Kendall (19:49)
Yes, yes, yes. Ryan, I’m gonna get off this phone, off this podcast here, and I’m gonna figure out how I can get a commercial job like that. My biggest commercial job so far is 17 roller shades at a restaurant. But that kind of stuff gets me excited. That gets me wound up.

Ryan Gilberts (20:04)
Yeah, yeah,

we got three more coming in.

Will Hanke (20:08)
I saw you.

Joe Kendall (20:09)
Ugh.

Will Hanke (20:09)
That’s

great. Joe, saw your brain ticking back there when he said it.

Joe Kendall (20:12)
my god, it’s crazy. You can actually see my brain right here. There

it is.

Will Hanke (20:16)
Yeah, so cool. talked about kind of collaborations and partnerships. Let’s switch and talk about the customer. What do you guys do to help build those relationships when it comes to getting into the home or even before you get into the home?

Joe Kendall (20:29)
So I’ll go first this time, OK. So the like to send.

Ryan Gilberts (20:30)
I’ll start. just kidding, Joe. You got it.

No, no, go ahead.

Will Hanke (20:32)
Ha!

Joe Kendall (20:38)
a video or two. If it’s a shutter job, we like to send a video or two. Like to send a link to our five star reviews beforehand. And then we really try, we do try to give a gift. Right now we’re giving away, it costs us about 40 bucks, but it’s a custom made cardboard box. I might have shown this to you well. It’s a custom made cardboard box, purple and yellow paper, and it has four rocks glasses in it, and they’re each engraved.

a palm tree, a setting sun. I can’t remember the other two. But given that as a gift and really, you you’re not going to get anything unless you ask for it. And when we give that gift, we like to say, hey, look, anybody ever talks about us, you know? And the thing is, is the kind of cool thing is anytime they get those glasses out and they have guests over, hopefully all come up in conversation. So that’s what we’re really trying to, you know, I’ve come up with the idea of

A $10 Starbucks card, if they lose that, who cares? But something that has value in their eyes, that’s what we’re going after for a gift when we ask those customers for the review and for the referrals.

Will Hanke (21:39)
That’s great. Love that. Ryan, how about you?

Ryan Gilberts (21:41)
So yeah, so as far as like gifts go, do like, if you know of anyone that needs a window coverings, I’ll do, I give a little gift card or not a gift card, but a little postcard. And there’s three options, like a, like a $50 gift card to Amazon or a hundred dollar gift card to a steak house that I did all their shades in.

or I have another a hundred dollar gift card to another buddy that owns a tap house. So, kind of something like that. It’s, it’s supporting my customers already and also trying to get more customers out there. But before I get into a house, the biggest thing that I’ve come to find out, because I’ll tell you guys, cause you see me on a screen. I’m six foot five and 285 pounds. I’m not a small person. So,

I always send an appointment reminder to people with this ugly mug and saying, Hey, I’m going to be at your doorstep. It takes a lot of hesitation off of people.

Will Hanke (22:34)
You

Joe Kendall (22:37)
Do you have like a height thing? Like you’re in a 7-Eleven doorway showing them how tall you are.

Ryan Gilberts (22:42)
You know I should, but we don’t need that.

Will Hanke (22:45)
Yeah.

Joe Kendall (22:45)
goodness, I love it, I love it.

Will Hanke (22:45)
That’s

I love the tips that you guys have shared. think those are great. Ryan, you mentioned the Amazon card. If somebody came to my house selling something and they mentioned that, I guarantee my wife would be all over that. I mean, she’s just ordering stuff every day off of there. So it’s interesting how far that can go for not a big spend. All right. So one other thing I wanted to ask about challenges.

Ryan Gilberts (22:58)
Right. Yep.

Will Hanke (23:09)
and maybe some solutions. What kind of challenges are you guys seeing out there when you’re trying to build those connections, grow your network, and for other people listening, maybe what are some ways that they could overcome those?

Ryan Gilberts (23:21)
So I can go because I’m the youngest probably in the industry on this podcast right now as far as being in business. My biggest thing is obviously competing. Obviously competing against the bigger names. Fortunately, I don’t have a made in the shade in my local area, but I do have that other cheap fish company that hasn’t

I wouldn’t say hasn’t stepped up in the realm of quality and customer service. But I always get with the realtors or with this other person like, hey, we had such and such company already do our shades. We already had this company do them. I already know this guy. So I mean, that’s my biggest hesitation. But then I come in and say, hey, you know what? That’s actually a shade that we also are a dealer for.

I can get that replaced for you. No problem. Get you a warranty issue taken care of. No problem. Because my competition didn’t want to call back or show up for a warranty appointment.

Will Hanke (24:14)
Great. Joe, how about you?

Joe Kendall (24:15)
lost them.

So one of the things that that one of my salespeople came to me with and were like, you know, how do I, know, bigger is better. Bigger means that they have more buying power. And I said, you know how to handle that, that question right there? How can I compete against 23rd day blinds or how can I compete against those guys? If you’re if you’re a small

and company you say, know what, it’s really, people probably wonder how can I compete against those big guys? And be honest, say, yeah, they probably buy the blinds for less than I do. But last time I checked, we don’t have a regional sales manager or regional divisional manager. We don’t have a regional vice president. We don’t have an office in Chicago. We don’t have this. We don’t have that. You know, I pay the same kind of bills they pay, but mine have a lot less zeros. So if you want someone that really knows the industry.

Ryan Gilberts (24:56)
and

Joe Kendall (25:07)
and can really

save you money, work with someone small and local. We’re here for you. And once you learn that objection, to get over that objection, the sky’s the limit. And that’s something that really, I always tell our people, remind them that there’s only six of us in the company. We don’t take retreats to Orlando to talk about how we’re going to sell this year. We might go out to

Ryan Gilberts (25:16)
you

.

Joe Kendall (25:32)
Alpac Steakhouse, but you know, that’s about it. But anyway, but that’s something that I think that people should get over when they’re a smaller company. When you’re a one person operation, is just remind them you don’t have regional vice presidents and director of sales and all that crud. So that’s the biggest thing I think is because that’s what they’re selling against you as. they’re so small. They’re so small, they can’t compete against us. That’s what they’re

saying. So say the exact opposite.

Will Hanke (25:59)
Yeah, I like that. When it comes to challenges, how about technology? How does that work in your world?

Joe Kendall (26:05)
Brian, lead boomerang, right buddy?

Ryan Gilberts (26:07)
Well I’m not really into the lead boomerang to be honest with you. I have used it. It’s just another Another thing I kind of I do solo tech and QuickBooks so You know, I still have the lead boomerang and it still transfers over into the solo tech I’m just not in lead boomerang daily

Joe Kendall (26:19)
Okay.

Ryan Gilberts (26:28)
I I’m a two man operation. I’m very mobile. I don’t have a storefront. I do have a office, but I’m not out at every day. So I’m out on the streets. If I’m in the office, I’m not really making money to be honest with you.

Joe Kendall (26:41)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So for me, the lead boomerang is everything. I can look at it. I can see calls that come in. With the lead boomerang customer tracking, I spend about three to five minutes in the morning updating our opportunity board. Today so far, we’ve gotten five phone calls. They’re all new leads.

Will Hanke (26:43)
How about you, Joe?

Joe Kendall (27:01)
with using lead boomerang and letting customers know, hey, the product’s been ordered. Hey, the product’s been shipped. Hey, it’s here. We have totally sliced and diced the incoming phone calls. Where’s my blind dad? was wondering when I was one. I was just curious. Those days are over for us. And I also have a second job running a furniture store.

So, and believe it or not, we actually, and this might sound terrible, but it’s the way it is. We found out when we got lead boomerang up and running with the opportunity page, we let our receptionist go. Just didn’t need her. Just didn’t need her. She was answering five calls a day saying, hey Joe, this customer wants to get an estimate. So I can handle five calls a day, you know, but we were getting 20 to 40 and so forth.

You know, it’s process to build it and to understand it, how it goes. And I’m a firm believer that I’m probably using 30 to 40 % of what lead boomerang can do. Whereas with my iPhone, I’m probably using 5 % or with my laptop, I’m using 5%. So I really feel like I’m getting a lot out of lead boomerang. And I have a State of the Union call with Will here on Friday, and we’re going to

Ryan Gilberts (28:04)
you

Joe Kendall (28:18)
spend some time

and to make sure I’m doing everything I should be doing with lead boomerang to get the most out of it. You know, we’re on a roll. We’re getting three to five, five star a week. And, you know, all of our business is not what I like. It’s what Google likes. Right, right. Well, does Google like this? Let’s do it. So that’s the biggest thing. Our automated responses, people will have conversations with our automated responses. God bless them.

Ryan Gilberts (28:20)
.

Will Hanke (28:33)
That’s right.

Ryan Gilberts (28:38)
.

Joe Kendall (28:43)
You know, thanks so much. Glad to hear from you, Joe. Looking forward to seeing you soon. You know, and you’re like, okay. But anyway, no, that’s the big thing. And I think the CRM is everything nowadays. That’s how the younger people work. They want text messages. They don’t want to wait. They don’t like phone calls, you know. But so that’s the big thing. Good CRM.

Ryan Gilberts (28:47)
.

Will Hanke (28:46)
You

Ryan Gilberts (28:55)
and

Will Hanke (29:00)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Ryan will need to get you some, some training and get you in there doing more of the stuff. Be happy to do that with you.

Ryan Gilberts (29:06)
That’s what I was just going to

Joe Kendall (29:07)
Brian, close

are you to big sky? Or skiing out there?

Ryan Gilberts (29:09)
About three and a

half hours three and a half hours away.

Joe Kendall (29:12)
All right, well, maybe we’ll work, we’ll figure something out. I’ll come out there and ski and teach you how to use lead boomerang.

Will Hanke (29:19)
There you go.

Ryan Gilberts (29:20)
you know where Yellowstone was filmed,

Joe Kendall (29:22)
What’s that, sir?

Ryan Gilberts (29:23)
You know where Yellowstone was filmed?

Joe Kendall (29:24)
couldn’t hear ya. Yeah!

Ryan Gilberts (29:25)
Yeah, I’m like 20 minutes from that. Yeah.

Joe Kendall (29:27)
That’s you.

how cool is that? How cool is that? That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So.

Will Hanke (29:33)
Very cool. All right, well one

last question for you guys. And then I wanna get some last thoughts from you. But I’m interested in what do you see as kind of the future of window treatment industry, where we’re going, and what can other business owners do to prepare for what’s coming up in Q2 and for the rest of the year?

Joe Kendall (29:53)
Wow.

Will Hanke (29:53)
You

Joe Kendall (29:53)
Ryan, go ahead and look at your crystal ball first.

Ryan Gilberts (29:54)
Well,

Will Hanke (29:56)
Hahaha

Ryan Gilberts (29:56)
yeah, I think, well, not I think, but I’m fairly certain that automation is going to just be the whole way of the future. You you’re going to get rid of the pulley strings. You’re going to get the automation systems, the motorization systems that are going to be standard. You’re not going to have the continuous cord loops, the beaded chains. You’re going to just have motorization. And with that, you’re going to have different price point motorizations.

Hopefully they get rid of the wand systems, but I think that’s just going to be kind of the way of the future. Shoot even films, window films that are going to be, you know, the transparent to the tint. That’s going to be a little bit more standardized, I think, especially with the way the Supreme Court’s Yep.

Joe Kendall (30:33)
Partner with somebody. Partner

with somebody as soon as you can. Partner with a company. We have one, Delmarva Tent, and they give me leads and I give them leads. But yeah, definitely. Sorry for jumping in, Brian, but yeah, I love that tent story.

Ryan Gilberts (30:47)
Go ahead Joe, let’s see what you got.

Will Hanke (30:48)
That’s great, Joe,

how about you and your crystal ball?

Joe Kendall (30:50)
I’m right with Ryan. Anytime you can, I think we’re going to start getting phone calls, a lot more phone calls about this phone call. I’m building a house and I want to have automation in my house and I haven’t broke ground. What do I need to do? So I would become familiar with the low voltage talk, try to get on any type of, whether it’s Alta Hunter, Norman, any type of low voltage talk, be familiar with that because you’re to get that call.

And you don’t want to go, I think you guys got to run speaker wire. So I just want to have a little bit of backstory, being able to talk about it, being able to talk about the distribution box and things like that. But I think that is what’s coming. And I think if to be prepared, one of the biggest home builders in my area is

sells window coverings to the customer. And they’re a Hunter dealer and a Norman dealer. And all it’s going to take is for these home builders who are so cookie cutter, they’re so buy the book, they don’t want any type of change, someone’s going to tell them, you know, we can make an extra $40,000 a house if we offer somebody a home, a smart home with pre-wired low voltage circuits to these windows. So I would just be ahead of that.

and be prepared for that. But I think I couldn’t agree with Ryan more that automation is going to be everything I would, I think in 20 years, you might even manual appliance might be gone in 20 years. Very good chance. So prepare for that and be ahead of that and have that knowledge in your back pocket when it happens.

Ryan Gilberts (32:11)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Will Hanke (32:22)
Love it, some great in-plate.

Ryan Gilberts (32:22)
Definitely future-proofing your

house.

Joe Kendall (32:23)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Will Hanke (32:24)
That’s great. And I would assume

that kind of stuff is increasing the value of your home nowadays, right, for people that are shopping for homes.

Joe Kendall (32:31)
Right. Right, right, right.

Will Hanke (32:32)
That’s great. Well, guys, thank you so much. Before we finish up here, just wanted to get any last thoughts for window treatment business owners that are out there struggling right now and want to obviously build their business over the rest of the year. What kind of advice would you give to them? We’ll start with Joe.

Joe Kendall (32:50)
No one’s gonna feel sorry for you.

It’s a tough world out there. You’re not going to be given anything. Become an expert. anytime you talk to people, there’s two great words to use, is unique and expert. People want unique products delivered by an expert. So those two words,

Will Hanke (32:55)
So you eat what you kill.

Joe Kendall (33:08)
are what I try to use all the time. You know, I don’t say salesman. I say expert. I don’t say, yeah, we have blinds. We have some very unique offerings. Separate yourself. But that’s, know, hey, listen, it’s not a cash cow. It’s work.

I can only imagine how far Ryan drives every day. But he’s working it and he’s doing it. But that would be my tip. Unique and expert are two words I would use as much as possible.

Will Hanke (33:39)
love that. Ryan is somebody who’s been in the industry for about what three years now. There’s people in your shoes or maybe even a little bit behind there. What advice would you have for them?

Ryan Gilberts (33:51)
Well, technically I’m fortunate that I have worked in the industry for almost 15 years. but I’ve owned the business on my own business for now three. biggest thing that I, I knew from when I went from here to here was honestly switching to my current website provider, throwing that one out there for you. Well,

Will Hanke (34:00)
Yeah.

Ryan Gilberts (34:11)
and

Will Hanke (34:12)
Thanks.

Ryan Gilberts (34:13)
Honestly, the marketing, making sure you look professional as a business and as a person. Anyone can slap a logo on the side of your van, but you need to know your product. Go out there, learn from your vendor reps. Get to know your vendor reps, learn from them. Start getting systems in place and getting your business a lot more efficient. So that way you’re not spending

four hours a day in your office grouping orders together because you want to save that $25 on a minimum.

Don’t jump over a dollar to save a dime.

Will Hanke (34:45)
Yeah.

I love that.

for sure, love that. Thank you guys so much for some incredible conversation today, I do appreciate it. Joe and Ryan, you guys have been amazing. As a listener, if you’ve been inspired to take your window treatment business to the next level, start applying some of these strategies right away. These guys have been doing this for quite a while, they know what works, take their advice and apply, I think is the best piece here.

Apply what you’re doing. If you love this episode, send it to a friend and don’t forget to click the subscribe button. We would love to make sure that you can hear all of our future podcasts as well. Ryan, Joe, thank you guys so much for taking some time out of your day to be with us.

Appreciate it guys. Thank you. We’ll catch you on the next one.

Joe Kendall (35:28)
OK.

Ryan Gilberts (35:28)
Thanks, Will.

Have good one.

Transcript

Will Hanke (00:00)
All right, everyone. Welcome to another episode of marketing panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their strengths, about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today is our Q2 preview. We’re going to talk about what happened in Q1. We’re going to talk about what we think is coming up in Q2. I’ve got two guests with some great insights that I’m excited to interview.

First of all, we got Joe Kendall, president

of Made in the Shades Eastern Shore. Joe owns Kendall Furniture, a Made in the Shade dealership. He went from 58th place to fifth place in the Made in the Shade franchise, then second place, and in 2002, 2024 became the number one volume dealer in North America. Joe, thanks for being on the show today.

Ryan Gilberts (00:31)
Okay.

Joe Kendall (00:40)
you

You’re very welcome. We’re happy to be here.

Will Hanke (00:57)
Thank you.

We’ve also got Ryan Gilbert’s Ryan owns Shaded Window Coverings in Montana. Shaded Shaded Window Covering started in May 2022 after Ryan was working for some other businesses in the window covering industry over the last 10 years. He wanted to. He first started in the industry as a part time installer, then moved to lead installer position and eventually a hybrid role of installer and salesperson.

Ryan Gilberts (00:58)
you

Will Hanke (01:27)
Now almost

three years later, there’s really no turning back. He’s just started his largest sixth figure project, 1900 shades for an apartment building under construction. Ryan, thank you for joining as well.

Ryan Gilberts (01:39)
Thanks, Will.

Will Hanke (01:40)
1900 so you’re going be a little bit busy I guess for at least the next couple days right?

Ryan Gilberts (01:44)
Fortunately, it’s being built out in stages.

Will Hanke (01:46)
Awesome. Yeah, that’s great. Congrats on that. So I want to start by talking about some different industry trends. What emerging trends are you guys seeing in the industry right now? And how can other window treatment dealers kind of align with these trends to stay competitive?

Joe Kendall (02:02)
Ryan, think what you’re doing is, Ryan and I spoke a little bit beforehand, Will, and we really love that the exterior market is exploding. you need to make sure you’re talking to your clients because they don’t know all the cool things you know as far as that goes. I was talking to Ryan and we were discussing how you might go into a customer wants to get some roller shades up on four windows that are consecutive.

Ryan Gilberts (02:12)
Yeah.

Joe Kendall (02:28)
And you leave the house with an exterior roller shade motorized. their beautiful in-tort, their trim on the inside is left alone. It’s gorgeous. And they can have that true builder look, but yet get the results they need when they need them. I think the exterior, and people, great too. I think they expect to pay more for exterior blinds.

And it’s with the warranties that some of these manufacturers are offering, it’s really a great way to go.

Ryan Gilberts (02:55)
Yeah, I got to agree on that too, but.

Will Hanke (02:57)
Yeah, I like that.

Ryan, are you seeing something similar?

Ryan Gilberts (02:59)
So yeah, I mean I like the exterior products They’re definitely a little bit more sleek, but they’re definitely a touch more expensive than some people anticipate But the cool thing is there’s a vast majority of dealers or I should say vendors that are starting to manufacture those and get into the market so I Don’t think price points all gonna be all that

Will Hanke (03:21)
I know when we talked with some of our guests on the Q1 podcast that we had talked about, they mentioned the luxury buyers are really popping up more. Are you guys seeing that as well?

Ryan Gilberts (03:32)
Absolutely.

Joe Kendall (03:33)
yeah. Yeah. Our average ticket for the last six months is up about 15%.

Will Hanke (03:38)
Okay.

Joe Kendall (03:38)
You know, we were in the $4,400 average ticket. We’re now in that a hair over 5,000, 5,200 area, which I think is just people are buying nicer stuff.

Will Hanke (03:48)
Yeah, I think that’s a great point. when I started in this industry as the marketing guy, about seven years ago, we niche down specifically just to the window treatment and awning industry. The average job was 2,500, 3,000. So obviously part of that is, I guess you could say inflation, but also I think it’s just people are buying better quality stuff.

Ryan Gilberts (04:03)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Kendall (04:11)
And, you know, there was always… Go ahead, Ryan, I’m sorry.

Ryan Gilberts (04:11)
Absolutely.

no, I was just saying absolutely. But I would probably say a year ago, I kind of crossed over that bridge with Hunter Douglas and became one of their dealers. But I will say that going into that bridge and are going into that realm of the market and being able to offer those very high quality products, my ticket sales have definitely increased tremendously. And I’m also getting a lot of those larger ticket deals and showing them.

The cool stuff, I guess you can say.

Joe Kendall (04:40)
You know, and I train, we have two full-time salespeople. I still train them and remind them of the famous, you know, Bloomingdale’s three bread maker stories about a good, better, best versus just a good or a best. And, you know, I encourage my people that when they’re presenting a product, and let’s say they’re talking about a Roman shade or they’re talking about a roller shade, and you pop out a Hunter Douglas vignette, you know, I’m a big believer in telling the client straight up,

hey, this is a more expensive product. There’s a decent chance, you the average salesperson might think, God, they’re going to be bummed. But really they go, cool, this is what I want. And I always like to tell people, because obviously if a roller shade was $49, we’d sell everybody we talked to. But not being afraid of the more expensive products and sharing with your customer, hey look.

Ryan Gilberts (05:18)
Okay.

.

Joe Kendall (05:32)
This is

a more expensive product, but let me tell you why and what you get. And then it’s like, well, this makes perfect sense. selling higher up, it takes work. But if you do it right, it really, really can pay off.

Ryan Gilberts (05:37)
Okay.

I gotta agree with you on that. Definitely education with your customers or clients is I think gonna make you stand above the crowd and definitely show your worth and then also get those larger ticket items.

Joe Kendall (05:56)
Definitely, definitely.

Will Hanke (05:57)
I love the idea of upselling, right? You already got them on the hook. Now if you can walk out with 10 % more than you thought you’d get or something like that, it’s a fantastic growth strategy for your business.

Joe Kendall (06:08)
You know, I’m going to share a quick story if I could, Will. When I first started selling 30 years, 35 years ago, I was selling roofs and my closing ratio was excellent, but my gross profit was just barely average. So the owner says, Joe, I want you to go out to dinner tonight with Zeke, who’s our highest profit guy. makes a thousand dollars or more than you a week. He’s going to teach you how to sell higher. And I was like, my God, this is going to change everything.

We go out to happy hour drinking, long story short, we get to midnight, we’re at 7-Eleven, we’ve had some cocktails. And I said, Zeke, we’re gonna be in deep trouble, you didn’t train me tonight. And we ran up the owner’s credit card. So Zeke can barely stand up and he asked the cashier, says, for a napkin and a pen. And I said, sure. So Zeke goes, here you go, on a 20 square roof, what’s your opening price? I said, well, I usually start around 4,200.

Zeke burps up some beer and says, okay, try it again, but this time instead of writing a four down, write a five. And the moral of story is just open up a little higher and you’ll get more, it’ll make a higher sale. It’s that simple. Just start a little higher. And I always remind people you can’t go up, but you can go down. So that’s one of my favorite training stories.

Will Hanke (07:17)
I love that you were able to write the night off on the.

Joe Kendall (07:19)
You

So.

Will Hanke (07:20)
Draining

Cool, that’s great. I love to hear that so Quick disclaimer both of you guys are clients of window treatment marketing pros So you guys are obviously, you know doing the SEO stuff doing the paid ads. I wanted to talk a little bit more about professional connections Local networking those kinds of things. What are you guys doing in that area to help generate leads and maybe even longer-term relationships?

Joe Kendall (07:49)
Go ahead, Ryan.

Ryan Gilberts (07:50)
To generate leads, mean, I’m talking to the sphere of people that I hang out with. I’m pretty fortunate with the area in Montana that I’m at. We have a lot more cattle than we do people. So the people that I’m dealing with are going to be a lot of business owners. The 1900 shade project that I got was due to one of my good buddies that is doing all the dirt work for this project. He just simply sent a text and said, who does all your shades?

call this guy. So it’s, really the sphere of people that I’m dealing with, but also kind of going back to what Joe was just saying about getting those higher ticket items, dealing with those larger, more expensive products. It’s actually the word of mouth of those people. You know, I’m, I’m giving them good, good solid products, great service, and they’re just talking to more people. As far as the marketing aspect goes that you can actually

pinpoint where your dollars are going. I still do local marketing. I don’t know if you guys have Valpac over on the East Coast or what have you, but Valpac is one of them. I am in with a lot of magazines for top realtors and also in magazines that just strictly market the top 1 % of homeowners in the area. And I also do TV commercials.

Joe Kendall (09:02)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s the old saying that, you know, half of my advertising works. I just don’t know which half, but I know this plug for Will, Will’s works. So without a doubt, one of the things I’m going to we’re talking to people in the industry. I simply for sake of a better term, pay off real estate agents that are sitting in a new neighborhood.

Will Hanke (09:02)
Okay, Joe.

Ryan Gilberts (09:12)
Yep.

Joe Kendall (09:23)
It’s just what I do. There’s a neighborhood and I went and talked to them and gave them. There’s a great restaurant company in town that has about 10 awesome restaurants. One gift card. I gave them each a $500 gift card. people might think that’s a lot, but all I got to do is get one purchase and I’m even. And I love giving that gift so big.

that now they feel guilty. Like they have to get me referrals now. You know, they’re the ones that are like, my God. So I love real estate agents. Word of mouth is the big thing. I love taking every service call that we should charge a hundred bucks for and not charging them and telling the people we should charge you. But if you get me a referral, you meet somebody who’s talking about window coverings, just make sure you pass my name along.

Ryan Gilberts (09:56)
Mm-hmm.

Joe Kendall (10:06)
Since you saved them 200 bucks, now they feel the guilt where they, gosh, we gotta find Joe a referral. So I love doing that. One thing too, this is gonna be the, well, the basketball going on. You’ve heard like, you know, the five star lock of the week, the team you have to bet on. Here’s my five star lock of the week, Will. Change how you respond to five star reviews. Don’t say thank you. Don’t say, well, obviously say thank you.

but use that review time, the response, to sell. Hey, we really love Tom the installer, he was great. Hey, that’s awesome. Tom, like all of our installers, is completely certified and has been with us for X amount of time. Tom’s been through four certifications in XYZ and loves his job. Thank you for mentioning him. So when people are reading that, they go, shit, these guys got good people. Or, wow, I love the shutters.

And don’t forget, all of our products have a lifetime warranty. So if you have a problem, please call us. Put in your responses to your Google reviews. Selling words, you know, hey, I’m so happy we could get that installed within your quick timeline. Oh, they do stuff quick. So people are reading their reviews, but they’re also going to review, read your responses. So that’s my 50 star pointer.

Will Hanke (10:56)
You

Joe Kendall (11:18)
I guess of this podcast is to change how you do your reviews and will do not use AI to do it for you. Be personal that you can be more personal. And again, though, you can you can sell. You got a chance because people are going to read reviews, so make them read stuff that you want to tell them. That’s all.

Will Hanke (11:35)
Yeah,

I love that it’s a missed opportunity if you just say thank you.

Ryan Gilberts (11:36)
Let me touch base on that.

Let me touch base on that review. I love it. I’m a very personable person when it comes to my reviews. give, you know, hey, Cheryl, thank you so much for the great review. It’s been extraordinary working with you, getting your automated roller shades or automated honeycomb shades up for you. But it’s also and I only have one of these a four star review. It’s how you respond to those.

I mean, so I’ve been in business for a short time. I, 2022 customer gave me a four star review because I, well, it freezes here and my spackle was frozen that morning to fill in the old screw holes of his vertical blind. That’s why I got a four star review. I responded back with, let me, let me come and earn that fifth star. He never, he never changed his review, but he’s bought four more times since then.

Joe Kendall (12:03)
Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

Ryan Gilberts (12:31)
stuff.

That fourth star haunts me.

Will Hanke (12:33)
That’s awesome. I love that. That’s great. And I love the idea of being personal about it, you know, and replying to each of those individually. AI can get a little dry on it. Obviously also an opportunity to use certain keywords and locations. You know, we really enjoyed installing the window treatments in your Chesterfield home, you know, something like that where it doesn’t violate any privacy type stuff, but

Joe Kendall (12:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

You

Will Hanke (12:59)
you do get the name of the place in there as well.

Joe Kendall (13:02)
Mention in the neighborhood, Will. Good point, good point.

Will Hanke (13:04)
Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. So I want to talk a little bit about expansion. So when it comes to reaching out in your particular area, you know, have a little bit of an advantage because you’re located in that area. And especially Ryan, I’m assuming in Montana, cities are maybe a little bit further apart than they are for Joe. Right. So so how do you handle

expansion or driving a certain distance tell us about that.

Ryan Gilberts (13:31)
Yeah, I I probably cover a two hour span from my location around. So I try to group all my appointments. Sometimes it works out, but I mean, hey, I’ll go over to this part of the neck of the woods and we’ll get a few appointments done that day. We’ll go over to next part of the neck of the woods.

So we’ll do that, but I mean, we’re getting a lot more. You can go into the bigger cities and I call them the cities, but you know, it’ll be a little bit more.

solid people like you can walk through neighborhoods and things like that still. It’s not, you know, you’re not going on a 40 acre ranch or a 3000 acre ranch and every every house that you go to. A lot of the communities that we’re in, they are going to be in your, would say eight, 900,000 to a million and a half dollar homes when they’re in neighborhoods like that. So

Will Hanke (14:15)
Yeah.

Ryan Gilberts (14:27)
They are typically a solid appointment.

Will Hanke (14:29)
I like that. I like how you stack them together, know, do a couple in one area. Yeah, especially when you’re traveling that far.

Joe Kendall (14:32)
Yeah, you have to,

Ryan Gilberts (14:32)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

For sure. For sure.

Will Hanke (14:38)
Yeah, Joe, what about you? Obviously, things are a little bit more compact in your area. I know you just added another location. Tell us about that.

Joe Kendall (14:42)
Yep, yep.

So we added a second location. The way our town is set up, our area is set up is we’re up against the Atlantic Ocean. So we do half circles. We don’t do full circles, you know? But there’s a really wealthy part, and I opened up on the street to that wealthy neighborhood area.

Will Hanke (14:56)
you

Joe Kendall (15:04)
with the idea of getting some stop in traffic and things like that. And we’re also showing higher end goods there. We’re not showing faux blinds in that location. So far so good. We’re making the so-called nut. But it’s like anything. It’s repetition, repetition, customers seeing and hearing about your name and so forth.

One nice thing I love about the Maiden the Shade is it’s purple and gray with a tint of yellow. So purple signs kind of stand out a little bit. But it’s a classic, you know.

A lot of people who are, nothing wrong with this, but who are trunk slammers and they want to go to that first store. You know, I was mentoring a Made in the Shade dealer and I was like, what hours are you going to be open before you expand? And they said, we’re going to go a nine to two and be closed on Saturday and Sunday. And my response was either going to be a retailer or you’re not going to be a retailer. And retailers are open seven days a week.

and depending on your town, till seven o’clock at night. And they’re like, oh, we don’t want to do all that. And I was like, well, then you don’t want to have a store. You don’t want to become a retailer. So I don’t know, if that was more what you were thinking about, like when to expand and so forth. For us, I looked at it like an advertising spend. It’s going to cost me $5,000 a month to have that store.

with the people and everything and I figured well hell $5,000 a month a billboard is in my neighborhood is $1,500 a month so it’s like buying two or three billboards but I’ll have a physical person I’ll be on the main drag so there’s a lot to think about before expansion obviously but

Will Hanke (16:40)
Sure.

Yeah, but there’s the nice thing about the window treatment industry is the average job is fairly high as we mentioned earlier. So it doesn’t take a lot to make that money back.

Joe Kendall (16:50)
No, no, no.

Will Hanke (16:51)
That’s great. Yeah. So I want to talk to you guys a little bit about partnerships, collaborations. Is there anything that you guys are doing that would be beneficial to the listeners around similar to what you said, Joe, with the real estate people in anything else like that?

Joe Kendall (17:08)
If there’s new construction in your area, get after those agents that are sitting in the house. That’s your bread and butter. Hey, hi Will, it’s nice to meet you. How long you been with NVR Homes? Hey, where’s your place? Do you have plantation shutters? Would you like to get plantation shutters? And I always say, hey, know, my manufacturer gives me some leeway on some sample products.

I love to put some sample products in 10 of your windows. We’ve done that before for people and put plantation shutters in their house. That was in the neighborhood that we got 23 jobs from. It’s just the best $3,000 I ever spent. So I’m a big believer in the real estate agents. I’m a big believer in having someone like Will do your Google buy.

I respond, Will will ask me a question, and I’ll say, Will, you’re the pro, buddy. It’s working so far. Don’t ask me. You got that covered. But that’s my one thing I would say is that’s where it’s at. a $100 gift card or a $50 gift card doesn’t do anything. Go to $500. That’s my tip of the day, second tip of the day.

Will Hanke (18:10)
You

Ryan Gilberts (18:11)
What? I’ll go off that. There’s an organization here in town called MOR for Kids, so Missoula Organization of Realtors, and it’s a nonprofit for kids. And I am the only window covering person in that organization. And I reach 800 realtors. There’s 800 realtors in the Missoula account.

Joe Kendall (18:26)
Oof.

Ryan Gilberts (18:28)
It’s just insane. But I’m the one window covering guy and I’m there competing in all their nonprofit organizations and it’s fun for me. We do a charity kickball tournament. We do a charity golf tournament and we do a winter gala. I get the most donations in the kickball tournament. My team typically always wins in the golf tournament. And last year,

I spent the most at the charity and I got the most awards.

So that’s kind of how I shotgun blast my name out there.

Will Hanke (18:55)
Fantastic.

Joe Kendall (18:58)
Yep, I love it.

Will Hanke (18:59)
That’s really cool. love that collaboration.

Ryan Gilberts (18:59)
They all call me Shady Ryan

for a reason.

Joe Kendall (19:01)
I love it. like that. Shady Ryan. I like that.

Will Hanke (19:04)
That’s great. And

at the end of the day, you’re supporting something, right? So there’s that whole PR side of things too, where you can get a little bit of that out there.

Ryan Gilberts (19:12)
Exactly.

Joe Kendall (19:12)
That’s, and

Ryan’s right on with, what’s your Realtor Association name, Ryan?

Ryan Gilberts (19:18)
M-O-R.

Joe Kendall (19:18)
The moon. OK. So we have the Coastal Association of Realtors. Here you go. Every town you’re in has an association of realtors and you can be what’s called a whatever kind of member you are, Ryan. It’s not accessory member, but it has a name. That means you’re not a realtor. Thank you very much, Ryan. Yeah, you’re an affiliate member. you get and with that, Ryan, you also get right emails, phone numbers for everybody, every realtor in town.

Ryan Gilberts (19:19)
Mozilla organization of realtors.

an affiliate.

Yep, exactly.

Joe Kendall (19:43)
So

lots of marketing you can do with that.

Will Hanke (19:45)
Wow, that’s awesome. So cool, we talked to… Go ahead.

Ryan Gilberts (19:46)
and also building industry associations.

Joe Kendall (19:49)
Yes, yes, yes. Ryan, I’m gonna get off this phone, off this podcast here, and I’m gonna figure out how I can get a commercial job like that. My biggest commercial job so far is 17 roller shades at a restaurant. But that kind of stuff gets me excited. That gets me wound up.

Ryan Gilberts (20:04)
Yeah, yeah,

we got three more coming in.

Will Hanke (20:08)
I saw you.

Joe Kendall (20:09)
Ugh.

Will Hanke (20:09)
That’s

great. Joe, saw your brain ticking back there when he said it.

Joe Kendall (20:12)
my god, it’s crazy. You can actually see my brain right here. There

it is.

Will Hanke (20:16)
Yeah, so cool. talked about kind of collaborations and partnerships. Let’s switch and talk about the customer. What do you guys do to help build those relationships when it comes to getting into the home or even before you get into the home?

Joe Kendall (20:29)
So I’ll go first this time, OK. So the like to send.

Ryan Gilberts (20:30)
I’ll start. just kidding, Joe. You got it.

No, no, go ahead.

Will Hanke (20:32)
Ha!

Joe Kendall (20:38)
a video or two. If it’s a shutter job, we like to send a video or two. Like to send a link to our five star reviews beforehand. And then we really try, we do try to give a gift. Right now we’re giving away, it costs us about 40 bucks, but it’s a custom made cardboard box. I might have shown this to you well. It’s a custom made cardboard box, purple and yellow paper, and it has four rocks glasses in it, and they’re each engraved.

a palm tree, a setting sun. I can’t remember the other two. But given that as a gift and really, you you’re not going to get anything unless you ask for it. And when we give that gift, we like to say, hey, look, anybody ever talks about us, you know? And the thing is, is the kind of cool thing is anytime they get those glasses out and they have guests over, hopefully all come up in conversation. So that’s what we’re really trying to, you know, I’ve come up with the idea of

A $10 Starbucks card, if they lose that, who cares? But something that has value in their eyes, that’s what we’re going after for a gift when we ask those customers for the review and for the referrals.

Will Hanke (21:39)
That’s great. Love that. Ryan, how about you?

Ryan Gilberts (21:41)
So yeah, so as far as like gifts go, do like, if you know of anyone that needs a window coverings, I’ll do, I give a little gift card or not a gift card, but a little postcard. And there’s three options, like a, like a $50 gift card to Amazon or a hundred dollar gift card to a steak house that I did all their shades in.

or I have another a hundred dollar gift card to another buddy that owns a tap house. So, kind of something like that. It’s, it’s supporting my customers already and also trying to get more customers out there. But before I get into a house, the biggest thing that I’ve come to find out, because I’ll tell you guys, cause you see me on a screen. I’m six foot five and 285 pounds. I’m not a small person. So,

I always send an appointment reminder to people with this ugly mug and saying, Hey, I’m going to be at your doorstep. It takes a lot of hesitation off of people.

Will Hanke (22:34)
You

Joe Kendall (22:37)
Do you have like a height thing? Like you’re in a 7-Eleven doorway showing them how tall you are.

Ryan Gilberts (22:42)
You know I should, but we don’t need that.

Will Hanke (22:45)
Yeah.

Joe Kendall (22:45)
goodness, I love it, I love it.

Will Hanke (22:45)
That’s

I love the tips that you guys have shared. think those are great. Ryan, you mentioned the Amazon card. If somebody came to my house selling something and they mentioned that, I guarantee my wife would be all over that. I mean, she’s just ordering stuff every day off of there. So it’s interesting how far that can go for not a big spend. All right. So one other thing I wanted to ask about challenges.

Ryan Gilberts (22:58)
Right. Yep.

Will Hanke (23:09)
and maybe some solutions. What kind of challenges are you guys seeing out there when you’re trying to build those connections, grow your network, and for other people listening, maybe what are some ways that they could overcome those?

Ryan Gilberts (23:21)
So I can go because I’m the youngest probably in the industry on this podcast right now as far as being in business. My biggest thing is obviously competing. Obviously competing against the bigger names. Fortunately, I don’t have a made in the shade in my local area, but I do have that other cheap fish company that hasn’t

I wouldn’t say hasn’t stepped up in the realm of quality and customer service. But I always get with the realtors or with this other person like, hey, we had such and such company already do our shades. We already had this company do them. I already know this guy. So I mean, that’s my biggest hesitation. But then I come in and say, hey, you know what? That’s actually a shade that we also are a dealer for.

I can get that replaced for you. No problem. Get you a warranty issue taken care of. No problem. Because my competition didn’t want to call back or show up for a warranty appointment.

Will Hanke (24:14)
Great. Joe, how about you?

Joe Kendall (24:15)
lost them.

So one of the things that that one of my salespeople came to me with and were like, you know, how do I, know, bigger is better. Bigger means that they have more buying power. And I said, you know how to handle that, that question right there? How can I compete against 23rd day blinds or how can I compete against those guys? If you’re if you’re a small

and company you say, know what, it’s really, people probably wonder how can I compete against those big guys? And be honest, say, yeah, they probably buy the blinds for less than I do. But last time I checked, we don’t have a regional sales manager or regional divisional manager. We don’t have a regional vice president. We don’t have an office in Chicago. We don’t have this. We don’t have that. You know, I pay the same kind of bills they pay, but mine have a lot less zeros. So if you want someone that really knows the industry.

Ryan Gilberts (24:56)
and

Joe Kendall (25:07)
and can really

save you money, work with someone small and local. We’re here for you. And once you learn that objection, to get over that objection, the sky’s the limit. And that’s something that really, I always tell our people, remind them that there’s only six of us in the company. We don’t take retreats to Orlando to talk about how we’re going to sell this year. We might go out to

Ryan Gilberts (25:16)
you

.

Joe Kendall (25:32)
Alpac Steakhouse, but you know, that’s about it. But anyway, but that’s something that I think that people should get over when they’re a smaller company. When you’re a one person operation, is just remind them you don’t have regional vice presidents and director of sales and all that crud. So that’s the biggest thing I think is because that’s what they’re selling against you as. they’re so small. They’re so small, they can’t compete against us. That’s what they’re

saying. So say the exact opposite.

Will Hanke (25:59)
Yeah, I like that. When it comes to challenges, how about technology? How does that work in your world?

Joe Kendall (26:05)
Brian, lead boomerang, right buddy?

Ryan Gilberts (26:07)
Well I’m not really into the lead boomerang to be honest with you. I have used it. It’s just another Another thing I kind of I do solo tech and QuickBooks so You know, I still have the lead boomerang and it still transfers over into the solo tech I’m just not in lead boomerang daily

Joe Kendall (26:19)
Okay.

Ryan Gilberts (26:28)
I I’m a two man operation. I’m very mobile. I don’t have a storefront. I do have a office, but I’m not out at every day. So I’m out on the streets. If I’m in the office, I’m not really making money to be honest with you.

Joe Kendall (26:41)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So for me, the lead boomerang is everything. I can look at it. I can see calls that come in. With the lead boomerang customer tracking, I spend about three to five minutes in the morning updating our opportunity board. Today so far, we’ve gotten five phone calls. They’re all new leads.

Will Hanke (26:43)
How about you, Joe?

Joe Kendall (27:01)
with using lead boomerang and letting customers know, hey, the product’s been ordered. Hey, the product’s been shipped. Hey, it’s here. We have totally sliced and diced the incoming phone calls. Where’s my blind dad? was wondering when I was one. I was just curious. Those days are over for us. And I also have a second job running a furniture store.

So, and believe it or not, we actually, and this might sound terrible, but it’s the way it is. We found out when we got lead boomerang up and running with the opportunity page, we let our receptionist go. Just didn’t need her. Just didn’t need her. She was answering five calls a day saying, hey Joe, this customer wants to get an estimate. So I can handle five calls a day, you know, but we were getting 20 to 40 and so forth.

You know, it’s process to build it and to understand it, how it goes. And I’m a firm believer that I’m probably using 30 to 40 % of what lead boomerang can do. Whereas with my iPhone, I’m probably using 5 % or with my laptop, I’m using 5%. So I really feel like I’m getting a lot out of lead boomerang. And I have a State of the Union call with Will here on Friday, and we’re going to

Ryan Gilberts (28:04)
you

Joe Kendall (28:18)
spend some time

and to make sure I’m doing everything I should be doing with lead boomerang to get the most out of it. You know, we’re on a roll. We’re getting three to five, five star a week. And, you know, all of our business is not what I like. It’s what Google likes. Right, right. Well, does Google like this? Let’s do it. So that’s the biggest thing. Our automated responses, people will have conversations with our automated responses. God bless them.

Ryan Gilberts (28:20)
.

Will Hanke (28:33)
That’s right.

Ryan Gilberts (28:38)
.

Joe Kendall (28:43)
You know, thanks so much. Glad to hear from you, Joe. Looking forward to seeing you soon. You know, and you’re like, okay. But anyway, no, that’s the big thing. And I think the CRM is everything nowadays. That’s how the younger people work. They want text messages. They don’t want to wait. They don’t like phone calls, you know. But so that’s the big thing. Good CRM.

Ryan Gilberts (28:47)
.

Will Hanke (28:46)
You

Ryan Gilberts (28:55)
and

Will Hanke (29:00)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Ryan will need to get you some, some training and get you in there doing more of the stuff. Be happy to do that with you.

Ryan Gilberts (29:06)
That’s what I was just going to

Joe Kendall (29:07)
Brian, close

are you to big sky? Or skiing out there?

Ryan Gilberts (29:09)
About three and a

half hours three and a half hours away.

Joe Kendall (29:12)
All right, well, maybe we’ll work, we’ll figure something out. I’ll come out there and ski and teach you how to use lead boomerang.

Will Hanke (29:19)
There you go.

Ryan Gilberts (29:20)
you know where Yellowstone was filmed,

Joe Kendall (29:22)
What’s that, sir?

Ryan Gilberts (29:23)
You know where Yellowstone was filmed?

Joe Kendall (29:24)
couldn’t hear ya. Yeah!

Ryan Gilberts (29:25)
Yeah, I’m like 20 minutes from that. Yeah.

Joe Kendall (29:27)
That’s you.

how cool is that? How cool is that? That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So.

Will Hanke (29:33)
Very cool. All right, well one

last question for you guys. And then I wanna get some last thoughts from you. But I’m interested in what do you see as kind of the future of window treatment industry, where we’re going, and what can other business owners do to prepare for what’s coming up in Q2 and for the rest of the year?

Joe Kendall (29:53)
Wow.

Will Hanke (29:53)
You

Joe Kendall (29:53)
Ryan, go ahead and look at your crystal ball first.

Ryan Gilberts (29:54)
Well,

Will Hanke (29:56)
Hahaha

Ryan Gilberts (29:56)
yeah, I think, well, not I think, but I’m fairly certain that automation is going to just be the whole way of the future. You you’re going to get rid of the pulley strings. You’re going to get the automation systems, the motorization systems that are going to be standard. You’re not going to have the continuous cord loops, the beaded chains. You’re going to just have motorization. And with that, you’re going to have different price point motorizations.

Hopefully they get rid of the wand systems, but I think that’s just going to be kind of the way of the future. Shoot even films, window films that are going to be, you know, the transparent to the tint. That’s going to be a little bit more standardized, I think, especially with the way the Supreme Court’s Yep.

Joe Kendall (30:33)
Partner with somebody. Partner

with somebody as soon as you can. Partner with a company. We have one, Delmarva Tent, and they give me leads and I give them leads. But yeah, definitely. Sorry for jumping in, Brian, but yeah, I love that tent story.

Ryan Gilberts (30:47)
Go ahead Joe, let’s see what you got.

Will Hanke (30:48)
That’s great, Joe,

how about you and your crystal ball?

Joe Kendall (30:50)
I’m right with Ryan. Anytime you can, I think we’re going to start getting phone calls, a lot more phone calls about this phone call. I’m building a house and I want to have automation in my house and I haven’t broke ground. What do I need to do? So I would become familiar with the low voltage talk, try to get on any type of, whether it’s Alta Hunter, Norman, any type of low voltage talk, be familiar with that because you’re to get that call.

And you don’t want to go, I think you guys got to run speaker wire. So I just want to have a little bit of backstory, being able to talk about it, being able to talk about the distribution box and things like that. But I think that is what’s coming. And I think if to be prepared, one of the biggest home builders in my area is

sells window coverings to the customer. And they’re a Hunter dealer and a Norman dealer. And all it’s going to take is for these home builders who are so cookie cutter, they’re so buy the book, they don’t want any type of change, someone’s going to tell them, you know, we can make an extra $40,000 a house if we offer somebody a home, a smart home with pre-wired low voltage circuits to these windows. So I would just be ahead of that.

and be prepared for that. But I think I couldn’t agree with Ryan more that automation is going to be everything I would, I think in 20 years, you might even manual appliance might be gone in 20 years. Very good chance. So prepare for that and be ahead of that and have that knowledge in your back pocket when it happens.

Ryan Gilberts (32:11)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Will Hanke (32:22)
Love it, some great in-plate.

Ryan Gilberts (32:22)
Definitely future-proofing your

house.

Joe Kendall (32:23)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Will Hanke (32:24)
That’s great. And I would assume

that kind of stuff is increasing the value of your home nowadays, right, for people that are shopping for homes.

Joe Kendall (32:31)
Right. Right, right, right.

Will Hanke (32:32)
That’s great. Well, guys, thank you so much. Before we finish up here, just wanted to get any last thoughts for window treatment business owners that are out there struggling right now and want to obviously build their business over the rest of the year. What kind of advice would you give to them? We’ll start with Joe.

Joe Kendall (32:50)
No one’s gonna feel sorry for you.

It’s a tough world out there. You’re not going to be given anything. Become an expert. anytime you talk to people, there’s two great words to use, is unique and expert. People want unique products delivered by an expert. So those two words,

Will Hanke (32:55)
So you eat what you kill.

Joe Kendall (33:08)
are what I try to use all the time. You know, I don’t say salesman. I say expert. I don’t say, yeah, we have blinds. We have some very unique offerings. Separate yourself. But that’s, know, hey, listen, it’s not a cash cow. It’s work.

I can only imagine how far Ryan drives every day. But he’s working it and he’s doing it. But that would be my tip. Unique and expert are two words I would use as much as possible.

Will Hanke (33:39)
love that. Ryan is somebody who’s been in the industry for about what three years now. There’s people in your shoes or maybe even a little bit behind there. What advice would you have for them?

Ryan Gilberts (33:51)
Well, technically I’m fortunate that I have worked in the industry for almost 15 years. but I’ve owned the business on my own business for now three. biggest thing that I, I knew from when I went from here to here was honestly switching to my current website provider, throwing that one out there for you. Well,

Will Hanke (34:00)
Yeah.

Ryan Gilberts (34:11)
and

Will Hanke (34:12)
Thanks.

Ryan Gilberts (34:13)
Honestly, the marketing, making sure you look professional as a business and as a person. Anyone can slap a logo on the side of your van, but you need to know your product. Go out there, learn from your vendor reps. Get to know your vendor reps, learn from them. Start getting systems in place and getting your business a lot more efficient. So that way you’re not spending

four hours a day in your office grouping orders together because you want to save that $25 on a minimum.

Don’t jump over a dollar to save a dime.

Will Hanke (34:45)
Yeah.

I love that.

for sure, love that. Thank you guys so much for some incredible conversation today, I do appreciate it. Joe and Ryan, you guys have been amazing. As a listener, if you’ve been inspired to take your window treatment business to the next level, start applying some of these strategies right away. These guys have been doing this for quite a while, they know what works, take their advice and apply, I think is the best piece here.

Apply what you’re doing. If you love this episode, send it to a friend and don’t forget to click the subscribe button. We would love to make sure that you can hear all of our future podcasts as well. Ryan, Joe, thank you guys so much for taking some time out of your day to be with us.

Appreciate it guys. Thank you. We’ll catch you on the next one.

Joe Kendall (35:28)
OK.

Ryan Gilberts (35:28)
Thanks, Will.

Have good one.

Guest Profile: Amy Wollf

She is an award winning designer and decorator providing custom window treatments in Scottsdale.
WINNER 2022 VISION Design Award – Outdoor
WINNER 2021 – Top Treatments
WINNER 2017 – Specialty Windows | Certified Interior Decorator
Amy recently celebrated being in the industry for 20 years!
She has developed a reputation for successfully delivering functional solutions for intricate or technically challenging window configurations including custom window shades, custom and motorized window treatments, draperies, and even custom upholstered furniture.

Other Notes/Links:

To learn more about Amy Wollf visit:

Amy Wollf Interiors

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

Listen to other episodes

Summary

In this episode of Marketing Panes, host Will Hanke interviews Amy Wolff, an award-winning designer and decorator specializing in custom window treatments. Amy shares her journey in the industry, her unique business model as a solopreneur, and her strategies for attracting premium clients. The conversation delves into the importance of personal service, navigating competition, and leveraging marketing strategies, including social media and PR efforts. Amy also discusses trends in the window treatment industry, maintaining business stability, and her aspirations for the future.

Video

https://youtu.be/H6dLxgc7qPs

Click here to display Transcript TRANSCRIPT

Will Hanke (00:00)
All right, hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk to real window treatment and awning service providers and business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today we’ve got a guest with some great insights that I’m excited to interview and I’ve known for a long time. She’s an award-winning designer and decorator providing custom window treatments in the Scottsdale, Arizona area.

She is the winner of 2017 Specialty Windows Award, 2021 Top Treatments, and in 2022, the Vision Design Award for Outdoor. Amy recently celebrated being in the industry for 20 years. She’s developed a reputation for successfully delivering functional solutions for intricate or technically challenging window configurations, including custom window shades, custom and motorized window treatments, draperies, and even custom upholstered furniture. Amy from Amy Wolf Interiors, thank you for being on the show today.

Amy (01:07)
Thanks for having me, Will.

Will Hanke (01:08)
Yeah, I really do appreciate you jumping on. So I saw and I just read in your bio that you’ve been in the industry for 20 years. Congrats on that milestone. That’s pretty awesome. What inspired you to get into window treatments and interior design in the first place?

Amy (01:19)
Thank you.

You know, it sounds cliche, but I was kind of born with it. I always did it. Even as a little kid, I was rearranging my room and painting it. So it’s just stuff that I’ve always done.

Will Hanke (01:40)
OK, yeah, that’s cool. it was you it was you were just born with it, right?

Amy (01:44)
Hahaha

Will Hanke (01:46)
I love that. So, so tell me a little bit about your business, Amy Wolf Interiors. Who do you serve and what sets you apart in your area?

Amy (01:54)
Well, I’m a solopreneur. I do not have a storefront. work from home because I go to my client’s home. I serve mostly, you know, the 45 plus crowd, the people who want some more luxury, the people who are willing to pay for custom, for something more unique than you could just buy online. or at Home Depot. And so that’s my crowd. They’re at the point in their life where they want better things, you know, and buy good by once and they just, you know, want to treat themselves better at the end of the day.

Will Hanke (02:40)
And you’re the right area for it. I know the Scottsdale area is growing like weeds Yeah, that’s great. So Talking about those maybe higher-end clients. I guess we could call them How do you position yourself to get those premium clients? for your services

Amy (02:45)
Always.

Well, your whole brand, because I’m my brand, you you just position it differently. We don’t put out sales and we can beat anybody’s price. That’s not us. There’s plenty of people to do that for the people who want that. And that’s a good thing. And it’s more of a personal service. You deal with me. I’m not going to send three different salesmen. Out or you know and of course I have an excellent virtual team you know I have excellent workrooms I have the best installer so everything you know we have an onboarding we have an initial call we confirm everything you know our appointment we let them know we’re on the way you have to be very consistent because people are looking for that high customer service experience that you know there was a time that was the norm now they think it’s exceptional

and

Will Hanke (03:51)
I love that you have a complete onboarding process and you’re really giving them an experience before you even do any work, really.

Amy (04:00)
Well, and at the same time, kind of qualifying them as well. You know, that they are the right client. Because, hey, it isn’t fair to my other clients to take time away from someone who isn’t a good fit. And I’m okay with that because there will be some, you know, I try to point them in the right direction if I’m not. So.

Will Hanke (04:20)
Yeah,

yeah. In my world of digital marketing, there’s a thing where the form on your website, the more fields you put, the less likely people are to fill it out. However, the people that take the time to fill that out tend to be better clients. So I’m sure putting them through this same sort of process is very similar to that.

Amy (04:43)
Well, I don’t put them through every single one, make them fill out a form. It’s more of a phone call form. But you’re right, the ones who fill out my form online to contact me, they’ve already committed. Because they’ve taken the time, they’ve gone through and they like what they see already, and they’ll fill in what they’re looking for. So those are usually good solid prospects.

Will Hanke (05:09)
like that. So you mentioned that you have an installer on your team. Do you have a workroom that helps with some of the things that you do?

Amy (05:13)
Yes.

Well, I have local workrooms that make just about everything we do in terms of soft treatments. Draperies, cornices, valances, you know, yes, and they also make custom upholstered furniture and they’re very good at what they do. And my installer is a separate person. Like I said, I kind of have a virtual firm and as needed call people in so we can accept a fair amount of volume.

Will Hanke (05:24)
Okay.

it yeah and you’re not just focused specifically on window treatments you’ll help them with other things as well right

Amy (05:52)
I do, you know, I really, it’s my favorite thing to do. So I’ve really narrowed. I mean, I used to do remodels and new builds, pick all the, you know, all the finishes for those lighting countertops, cabinetry, everything. And I’ve pretty much eliminated that. I will help my window treatment clients if you know, Hey, what do you think of this? Where should I get that? If they want custom lighting, I’ll get it.

but it isn’t something I chase after anymore in terms of a full blown house project like that.

Will Hanke (06:23)
Okay.

Okay. There’s plenty of work in that part of the country, as I mentioned earlier. So it’s nice that you can be a little bit more specific about your audience.

Amy (06:29)
Yeah.

Yeah, it’s just, it’s what I enjoy doing the most. And trust me, there’s plenty of competition in both. There’s plenty of interior designers doing all the design work and there’s plenty of other window covering companies out here too. And they all have a different niche, but there’s some overlap. You’re going to run into some now and again.

Will Hanke (06:55)
Yeah. Yeah. Have you created any special strategies to compete against the other people in town, specifically the larger dealers without compromising your kind of like boutique service model?

Amy (07:10)
Well, let’s face it, the larger dealers have a huge advertising and marketing budget. You know, I can’t bid against them at $500 a lead on Google, you know, and being everywhere like that. So I honed in and, you know, geographically, I honed in a lot closer to home because I provide better service if I can get there sooner or I can get there.

Will Hanke (07:22)
Right.

Amy (07:37)
you know, without having to schedule someone out a week and a half because I don’t have a big enough block of time for travel because it’s a big valley here and there are people who go anywhere. Well, that could be an hour and a half away. And that doesn’t serve my clients well. So I have honed into a very specific geographic area. Will I go elsewhere? Yes, but I don’t market to it. And what I do that’s different from the larger is the personal service.

You’re not one of five appointments today. know, at most I’ll schedule two. A morning and an afternoon at most. Because there’s folks who I’m out of there in 45 minutes or an hour who are very decisive, they were very crisp on what they said they wanted. And there’s others who you like to chat and get to know you and take longer. And so I’m not, you know, hit and run, hit and run, hit and run. It’s just a more personal experience. And these are the people who like that.

Will Hanke (08:28)
Yeah, that’s great.

Amy (08:29)
They’re not calling

five people and saying hand me a quote, hand me a quote, hand me a quote. That’s not my clientele.

Will Hanke (08:36)
sure. Do you have a way to filter those types of people out before you ever make it to their home?

Amy (08:42)
Usually on the initial phone call that’s usually between you know 20 minutes in an hour depending on how much they have to do and how much I’m trying to decipher Because they’ll tell you what they think they want, but that doesn’t mean they’re using the correct terminology You know I’ve had people call and say they want curtains, and they really wanted a shade So you have to you have to you know Go down through that to see what they was is in their mind’s eye that they don’t know how to describe

And I’ll also probe them, have you done custom before? Do you know what this costs? And ways to, now we can value engineer. There’s ways we can do something for most people’s budgets, if they’re realistic. I mean, if you’re comparing to buying panels off of Amazon, well, that’s not realistic. You’re not getting the same thing. And I’ll explain to them, if that’s what you want, that’s fine, just understand what you’re getting.

Cause there’s places for that. Put them in the guest room.

Will Hanke (09:38)
sense.

Yeah. And you mentioned earlier that you really don’t compete on price. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Amy (09:47)
I don’t because again, it’s a very custom product I give you. don’t sell name household brands, let’s say. I’m not one of those dealers. I was at one time. sell products that, as I tell my clients, I sell you products that don’t make you cry or give me headaches.

Will Hanke (10:07)
I like that. I like that.

Amy (10:08)
Well, callbacks cost money. So if I sell, you know, let’s say roller shades, motorized stuff, I sell stuff we don’t get callbacks on. That costs a little more upfront, but then it’s not a cost to me or heartache for them later on in the quality. people who are interested in quality, you know, are more likely to pick me. If you’re shopping strictly price,

We probably didn’t even get to the first appointment because I’ve already had that conversation. Or I’ll tell them, go ahead, go get all your pricing and come on back, let me see what you got. And we can or not take it from there. It’s an understanding what you’re getting for the money and the personal service. And of course, custom, you can’t, if you’re doing, we have huge windows here. So it can be very difficult to get something like draperies online or in the store.

Because they’re so tall and wide that sometimes custom is your only option. So, you know, can you go try and price shop that? Sure. I don’t know how effective that is.

Will Hanke (11:05)
Okay. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. So in your area, you mentioned the big windows. What is the breakdown between hard and soft treatments? Do you think for your customers?

Amy (11:25)
Well, I definitely sell more hard treatments because it’s the desert and it’s dusty. So a lot of folks don’t want draperies in that. Although they’ll do cornices, they’ll do top treatments of different kinds, or they’ll just do some side panels. So probably, I’m going to say 70-30.

Will Hanke (11:44)
Okay, interesting.

Amy (11:45)
I realized you know I Forget someone was asking me it could have been you Motorization now is probably 75 % of all the shades I order So even if someone’s doing the whole house Very few motorized the whole house For instance they’ll put cordless in the guest room because they don’t want the guests to be messing around with a remote and it’s just easier

Will Hanke (11:57)
wow, okay.

You

Amy (12:11)
So they won’t, even they won’t do the whole house or the garage. You don’t need to motorize the garage shades. You need to open them twice a year when you have the windows cleaned. Right? Yeah. So that’s part of the value engineering. say too, okay, hey, we can save here, we can save there. That makes sense.

Will Hanke (12:20)
Makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you have people that motorize one room and then realize how awesome it is and then call you back as a separate project?

Amy (12:38)
Yes. Plus I have folks who, you know, for whatever reason they don’t want to or they can’t do the whole house at once. So we do it in phases. And we can plan that out. That’s fine. I have one now who regrets not motorizing eight windows. And she happens to have the same size windows in other rooms. We’re going to move them and motorize that room down.

Will Hanke (12:46)
Sure.

that’s a great idea. OK.

OK. Very cool. So as I said early on, you’ve won a lot of awards around design. And I’ve seen some of the things that you’ve done. I know that PR is a big piece of everything you do. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Amy (13:06)
Mm-hmm.

Well, I actually just started doing that. and it was suggested to me when, know, I was talking about my 20th anniversary, I said, wow, you really got to promote that. Is that I got a guy who is a, you know, a PR professional. So I said, okay, let’s do it. And it exploded to me is, you know, you’re working, you’re doing your job, whatever. It isn’t a big deal, but apparently it’s a big news deal. So.

We’re going to try and do more frequent things. We did another one on the tariff situation, how that could be affecting our business or not. It isn’t affecting mine because almost everything I do is made in the USA. And that really started because of COVID accessibility to things. So I brought things as local as I possibly could, whether it’s hard treatments or custom draperies and top treatments.

Even that’s what even got us into custom upholstery because the big, the higher end furniture manufacturers in North Carolina weren’t going to deliver for 18 months. I said, well, that’s not acceptable. So we started making them here.

Will Hanke (14:25)
I love that. That’s a great work around that worked out well for you.

Amy (14:31)
Well, and it’s actually worked out better for my clients because it’s at the same price as your higher end brands, know, your Hancock and Moore Century. Same price, but even more customized because they can go to the little showroom at my upholster and sit on different cushions. Yeah, I like this firmness or I like that one and pick any fabric we want. And, you know, the turnaround was, you know, a couple of months, not 18 and

Will Hanke (14:58)
You

Amy (15:00)
The freight for one client went from for two sofas and four, you know, big armchairs. The freight went from $3,800 down to 250 because our local white glove delivered. So it benefits everyone really.

Will Hanke (15:13)
that’s great.

Yeah. So on the on the PR, what are you doing? Are you just doing a press release or are you are you trying to get on local TV? Any of that kind of stuff?

Amy (15:26)
We haven’t gone to the local TV yet because a lot of that here is actually paid. Even though they act like yeah, so you have to pay for that spot. So we’re doing mostly mostly newspaper magazine. Trade. Journals so everything from local to to the trade. All the shelter stuff.

Will Hanke (15:45)
Okay, so you’re specifically sending a press release or some information to them and hoping to get an interview or something in those types of publications.

Amy (15:53)
Yes,

and just being picked up, it all helps with backlinks to the website. So that all helps as well. Plus I promote them on social media locally all over.

Will Hanke (16:00)
Yeah, sure.

Okay, very good. All right, so another thing that you’ve mentioned in the past is direct marketing. Tell me about that piece.

Amy (16:10)
Ahem.

Well, you know, really you want repeat and referral. That’s the golden. So, Repeat and referral is key. And then I do a lot of very local social media I’ve done really well with Nextdoor. A lot of nice referrals there. And where I live, there are at least a half dozen, could be 10.

Will Hanke (16:27)
Okay.

Amy (16:36)
social media neighborhood area pages and it’s funny they all have certain days you can post your business so on Tuesdays it’s this page Wednesdays it’s that page Thursday so I just repeat the same one all week I’ve now gotten into a system of doing that and the nice thing is you have your cheerleaders who will give you a thumbs up or a comment every time so that helps it and then people already think they know you you’re already my friend

Will Hanke (16:49)
love it.

Amy (17:03)
I had two appointments in the last month. People are like, I feel like you’re my friend. Even though we hadn’t met before. So, and then there’s certain kinds of posts that work better than others. They all love the PR ones because that’s, wow, look at you. You got some news. and other ones, the most effective are, after photos. They want to see what a job looks like. I don’t put the before photos because sometimes the clients are embarrassed.

Will Hanke (17:08)
Sure, sure.

okay.

Amy (17:31)
But people love, that gets the most reactions, the most engagement are after photos as opposed to, hey, look at the new fabrics I got.

Will Hanke (17:42)
Yeah. I love that you’re posting on the different pages, you know, for the different days when you get to post your business. Are you only doing organic type posting or are you actually paying for ads on Nextdoor?

Amy (17:55)
I used to pay for ads on Nextdoor and I found it didn’t get any more response than just posting.

Will Hanke (18:03)
Yeah, so you’re just taking the time.

Amy (18:04)
And it seems the more you post,

the more neighborhoods they’ll show.

Will Hanke (18:08)
Okay. Okay. And then you just have a list of which ones on which days. That’s fantastic.

Amy (18:09)
So.

I put it in my calendar now because I’m terrible. I hate social media. I’m terrible at it. So now that I have a list of what day what goes where, as soon as I get the first one out, then I just copy it and paste it all week.

Will Hanke (18:28)
Perfect. Yeah. Well, let’s talk a little bit about business cycles. sometimes the industry is doing great. Sometimes the industry is really slow. What practical steps can business owners take to kind of maintain that stability during these ups and downs?

Amy (18:43)
I think that if you’re consistent, I mean, there’s going to be slow times and there isn’t a lot you can do about it. But if you’re consistent, I think with your message, for instance, last year was an election year. Those are always really weird years, but I did a lot better than I expected. And I think some of this consistency led toward that. There’s certain seasons for me.

And maybe the rest of the industry, don’t know if it’s a geographic thing or not, that are slower. January can be slower after the holidays. Sometimes between Thanksgiving and Christmas it can be slow because I say once the tree’s up nobody wants to see me. But you know it’s a good year when you’re still getting appointments in December that aren’t installations. And then sometimes August here can be a little slow.

And I think it’s now a lot of folks leave for the summer here. We have a lot of snowbirds. but they’ve been gone all summer. Usually they’re usually gone in May or June. So August could be a little slower and I think a lot of that might have to do with back to school, even though my really priority clients don’t have school age kids. So I just think it’s August. People are getting in their last vacations and such.

Will Hanke (20:01)
makes sense. Yeah. And I would assume Arizona is not the best place to be in August in the first place.

Amy (20:07)
We have air conditioning.

Will Hanke (20:08)
Yeah,

fair enough.

Amy (20:10)
I said I’m not a roofer or a baggage handler, so life is good.

Will Hanke (20:14)
Yes, very true. Very true. In the industry, although overall you said, you know, there’s slow times, there’s there’s great times. Do you see any trends right now in the window treatment industry? And if you do, how are you adapting to stay ahead of those?

Amy (20:28)
I don’t know if there’s trends in terms of well, I am getting a little bit more soft treatment inquiry than just blinds, know, the utilitarian. Now I’m getting a little bit more of what I’d consider luxury, optional items, because you here you have to have blinds or shades, something on your windows. There’s just that’s not negotiable, you know.

It’s just a matter of what you’re gonna spend on it and how you’re going to do it. So there’s more inquiry and that, you know, I still can’t predict how that’s gonna be up or down trend wise, but it is trending now to more luxury. So.

Will Hanke (21:09)
Really interesting

that you say that because I also do a quarterly podcast with different guests and the last two quarters, so Q3 and Q4 of 2024, that’s one thing that they’ve mentioned is that the luxury market seems to be popping up a little bit more. So it’s interesting that you also bring that up.

Amy (21:30)
Mm-hmm

Right and even more interest as well. I’m starting to get a little interested in the custom upholstery again because people Want a quality item? Yeah, you can go buy a sofa for you know $800 This isn’t the $800 crowd, you know, they they want something they’re gonna use every day and and you know quality items, so

Will Hanke (21:38)
Okay.

Amy (21:59)
It’s just, and it’s a state of mind, by the way. You asked about luxury neighborhoods. It isn’t all 5,000 and 10,000 square foot homes. Somebody could have a 2,500 or even 1,800 square foot patio home or town home, but they’re at the point of their life that they want it all perfect and beautiful.

Will Hanke (22:22)
Okay, interesting. When it comes to design trends, what’s your favorite?

Amy (22:26)
You know, it’s funny, I like a lot of stuff. I really do. As you can see, I like color. It’s more what I don’t like. I was so sick of the gray thing the week it came out. That’s pretty much gone. I really do like all, you know, I like the opportunity to do all different styles for people. You know, I have one who’s just doing.

Will Hanke (22:29)
You

Yeah.

Amy (22:47)
plain black leather cornices. And they’re gonna look really striking where she’s putting them. And other people want all the bells and whistles, completely different styles, both equally fun.

Will Hanke (22:59)
So I think you like the idea of every one of them being different from each other.

Amy (23:03)
absolutely. In fact, that’s another one of my selling points that people happen to love is that once you choose a fabric, I won’t sell it again. So it’s yours. So people may be able to find elsewhere, but they’re not getting it from me because to me it’s custom. So I’m not selling it to someone else. I may sell it another color. And I mean, look, this is a fraction of the books and stuff. There’s plenty of fabrics.

Will Hanke (23:14)
OK. that’s fantastic.

Amy (23:31)
There’s no reason I can’t make one exclusive for a client. And they love that.

Will Hanke (23:36)
That’s a great selling point. When it comes to your dream project, what does that look like?

Amy (23:38)
Yeah.

You know, I had to think about that. And I think it’d be super fun to do like a whole house of motorized draperies. You know, like hotels.

That would be just fabulous.

Will Hanke (23:54)
Yeah.

OK, very cool. All motorized. Yeah, all working together. And I guess you do the smart home piece of that as well.

Amy (23:58)
Fuck, cuz fabrics are fun, you know?

We will talk to your smart home. We will make sure whatever we put in Seize your smart home. We’re not going to go into programming in your smart home So we will help the homeowner Okay, you whether it’s on their iPad or their phone or whatever. Okay, it sees our shade It’s operating or the drapery. It’s operating You have to go in and tell it if you want different scenes times a day or all that

Will Hanke (24:32)
Sure.

Yeah. Sure.

Amy (24:34)
We won’t do that. We’ll get

it all working and make sure it sees it, but we don’t want to go into somebody’s smart home because they have so many things in there that we just don’t want to want to touch. And sometimes we have to call the smart home people because they have so many things. We need them to open up another channel or whatever it is for us because that’s the only reason it’s not seated is that you’ve already got eight other things on there. You know, the TVs, the lights, I mean,

Will Hanke (24:43)
That’s right.

Amy (25:03)
outdoor misters outdoor fans you know they’ve got everything on cameras so

Will Hanke (25:07)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah,

as a guy who is really into the smart home piece of everything, I would prefer somebody just set it up and hand it to me to build for me to build the automations anyway.

Amy (25:23)
Well that’s it too, because your preferences could change. So the cool thing is the folks who want them to go up at night and day, now the software knows when is night and day. You don’t have to reset it all year.

Will Hanke (25:36)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think for the snowbirds, too, there’s probably different automations for when they’re not there. Right.

Amy (25:38)
So.

Well, most of the time they’ll have them down the whole time. But okay, now got somebody coming to do something at the house while I’m gone. Okay, let me open those for them while I’m in Colorado.

Will Hanke (25:46)
Okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

Amy (25:57)
But I’ll tell you what, that’s still a very small percentage that go to that extent. At least of my clients, I’m going to say it’s 5%. The rest just want a handheld remote. They don’t want to, even though they can do it. And I sell them because some could change their mind in a year or two. So I sell them the motors that we can get them programmed later on.

Will Hanke (26:04)
Okay.

Makes sense. Yeah.

Amy (26:19)
Yeah, in case

they change their mind, we have the ability to add it later.

Will Hanke (26:23)
Yeah. Yeah. When they go to somebody else’s house and that person is like me really into it and shows them all the cool things they can do. Yeah.

Amy (26:31)
Right.

But at the end of the day, isn’t it really just a show-off thing? You know, I mean, there’s some level for home security, but otherwise to have everything going is, you know.

Will Hanke (26:36)
Yes, a little bit.

Yeah, fair enough.

Let’s talk about single room projects. Do you have any strategies to upsell somebody who just calls you for a single room and try to get them to do more of a whole house project?

Amy (26:57)
You know, they almost upsell themselves a lot of times because they see how beautiful the one room came out and they’re, oh, yeah, now I got to do this room. That’s, you know, unless they’ve called me because they’ve had everything else done. Or let’s say they bought the home and everything was done except a certain room. But a lot of times they kind of upsell themselves.

Will Hanke (27:17)
That’s great. I think that goes back to your process and the onboarding and giving them an experience right off the bat.

Amy (27:24)
And then they see how effortless it is for them.

They really like not having to do anything, not having to run around and find fabric, not having to do all those things that some do-it-yourselfers like to do. They find that fun. But these folks like to have the whole thing taken care of. I just want to go to lunch or play golf or I’ve got other things going on, you know, that I just don’t want to do this.

Will Hanke (27:27)
like that.

You

Yeah, yeah, for window treatment businesses that are looking to run more smoothly like that, what systems or processes should they focus on first?

Amy (28:01)
the customer facing ones. You know, it’s like the duck that looks real calm on the surface and the legs are going like crazy underneath. Have the customer, you need to focus, make sure your customer facing processes are, because that’s where the money comes from. We work for them. And then your internal ones, you know, are equally important, but you can take care of those in the background.

when you’re not taking care of your clients.

Will Hanke (28:27)
Very good. You mentioned the money comes from them. When you’re presenting those higher end window treatments, how do you ensure that you still are making a healthy margin off of that?

Amy (28:39)
Well, you know, you have to charge what you need to get your gross and your net profit. You need to know what your costs are. And I’ll tell you what, just because mine may be lower than say someone who has a showroom, that doesn’t mean I’m going to charge less. It’s a value to the client. It’s the end product they’re getting. So yeah, I put healthy profit on things. And most people watching this,

Even if you have a huge showroom and you’re a multi-million dollar shade, you know blind and shade dealer You know what your formulas need to be? To make to make your profit, but most people in the business say a rule of thumb, you know is is double your cost For openers now, there’s some shade people who don’t do that because they’re doing a lot of volume But then to me you’re always playing catch-up

Will Hanke (29:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

Amy (29:29)
and those are also the folks who the price shoppers or their clientele so it’s just a different business model nothing wrong with it just a different model not one that I ever wanted

Will Hanke (29:37)
Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Back to not competing on price. think that lowers your stress, right? Maybe less clients, but better clients and less stress for you.

Amy (29:50)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Better clients, you know, better margins. Yeah, I mean, you know, the better clients, the less running you’re doing, which is also why I narrowed my geography, too.

Will Hanke (30:03)
Make sense? Yep. Okay. So I want to do a marketing myth or fact with you. Homeowners in older homes are less likely to invest in custom window treatments.

Amy (30:09)
Okay.

that’s definitely a myth. they wear out. I would say I have 60, 40, 60 new homes, new move-ins versus 40 that they’ve been in the home 15, 20 years. And, you know, the, the, the blinds had a nice life. They’re, they’re over it. They want motorization. They want a cleaner look.

I mean it’s completely different. Look, they have verticals. know? Things that, you know, the old plastic verticals of the old hardware store with all the strings and such and no, it’s definitely a myth.

Will Hanke (30:52)
Very good. Here’s another one. Myth or fact? Luxury clients only come from high end neighborhoods.

Amy (30:59)
No, that’s a myth too. As I said before, well, you know, it could be a townhouse. Maybe it’s a high-end neighborhood, but you don’t judge that, you know, they’re not gonna spend a lot because to me, it’s a state of mind. I mean, I market to the higher-end homes when I see no home closings, because that’s an easy grab to market to, but…

No, you don’t assume, because I’ll tell you what, and I live in the desert, so there’s a lot of ranches and such. You don’t know what’s behind that gate. And sometimes you get back there and it’s Oz, I mean. Everything is like beautiful and manicured. You have no idea from the gate what you’re gonna find. So I never assume.

Will Hanke (31:48)
Yeah, yeah. So obviously you market more to the high end with the on purpose marketing. As your company grows and you have these different growth opportunities, how do you evaluate those? You know, along with I know you do a lot of traveling, diving, those sorts of things. How do you keep your business going and growing with keeping that stuff in mind as well?

Amy (31:56)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Well, I plan my trips when it’s generally going to be slower here. I do stay in contact. See, this is another thing with hiring people. If I’m out of town and we have our initial call while I’m away or something, they’ll wait. Price shoppers want you there this afternoon.

Especially if you build a rapport with them and you know, generally they like to travel too. They like to do so they understand

Will Hanke (32:41)
Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you for sharing that. So a couple last bonus questions. Is there a design trend in window treatments that you secretly dislike but your clients love?

Amy (32:44)
I’m

I really can’t think of one. Quite frankly, know, the new regulations with strings and such makes my life a lot easier because there’s a lot less choices in terms of how to operate things. And a lot of times I make that decision for my client. I’ll say to them, okay, and this one, if we’re not doing motorization, let’s say, okay, well, this is what you need to have here. And then, you know, that’s that.

Will Hanke (33:09)
You

Amy (33:16)
I take the options away because I know what’s gonna function best for them. And so that helps. But no, there isn’t anything I secretly hate because it isn’t about me. It’s not my home. Does it work at your home?

Will Hanke (33:30)
Right. Yeah, makes sense. I know that you did mention earlier the gray thing and quite honestly, my wife went through that maybe a year ago and we’re already talking about repainting.

Amy (33:36)
Ha!

But here’s the good thing. It’s just paint.

Will Hanke (33:46)
Right.

Amy (33:47)
So when clients were into that, I wouldn’t let them put it on the expensive stuff, like your shades, your countertops, your floors, things that are expensive to replace. I would move more toward grayish. You know that beige gray? And then otherwise, it’s just paint. It’s a pain, but it isn’t expensive in the scheme of things.

Will Hanke (34:08)
Right.

Yeah,

yeah. As long as you don’t use that to match everything up like you said. And then when it comes to repainting, now we have to start over.

Amy (34:19)
February would…

Will Hanke (34:21)
Yeah, yeah. So Amy, if someone wants to learn more about your work and what you do, where’s the best place for them to connect with you?

Amy (34:28)
Well, obviously my website www.amywolffinteriors.com and that’s with two F’s as you see right there. And, or call me, text me.

Will Hanke (34:39)
Okay. Lastly, what are the three most important business lessons that you’ve learned in your over 20 years that could help other people listening to the podcast?

Amy (34:49)
Well, one, decide what kind of business you want to be.

You know, do you want to be a huge showroom with all kinds of salespeople and all that? Or do you want to be a boutique solopreneur like me or something in between? Decide what you want to be.

Find out who your priority customers are, your premium clientele. Who are they? Where do you find them?

And then, you know, everything beyond that kind of rolls into place. But you have to be consistent as well. You can’t, you can’t try and be both. I don’t think. Yes, do, do the big showrooms offer what I do? Sure they do. Do they do it the same way? No. So I think that’s the hardest part is deciding what kind of business you want to be and who you’re going to serve.

Will Hanke (35:37)
Yeah, good point. We talk about in my world, the message, the market and the media, right? If you know who the market is and you know, you know what message you’re going to say to them, you’re 75 % of the world in this case, 66 % of the way done, right?

Amy (35:45)
Right.

Right. Right. And there isn’t a right or wrong answer. It’s you choose what you want it to look like. And, know, there was a point in the last 20 years where I could have gone a different way, but as I thought about it and I had gone to a, was invited, it was a big deal to this VIP designer business seminar, running your business and all these other, and as I sat there,

And they’re like, what’s your takeaway? And I thought, wow, my takeaway is I don’t want 12 or 20 people working for me to be responsible for feeding all those families. My personal choice. Can I make the same salary as those owners without having to worry about all these other families? And so that’s just my personal choice, you know.

Will Hanke (36:46)
Yeah,

that’s great. And that’s the way that you’ve built your business to be in that position. That’s great. Amy, thank you. Yeah, yeah, I’ll bet. Last question. I know I said last already. You’re 20 years into this with your business. What do the next five years look like for you?

Amy (36:53)
Right. But it was an aha moment.

You

Well, that’s a good question. mean, I love doing this, but I mean, at some point you want to figure out a retirement gig. So, you know, I’m just mulling over in my head what that would look like.

What would a laptop life look like that keeps me still in the industry?

Will Hanke (37:29)
Yeah. And I know that you like to travel and diving is something that you really love. So obviously you probably want to do more of that, right?

Amy (37:34)
Yes.

Well, who

Will Hanke (37:39)
Well, Amy, thank you so much for being on. You shared some incredible tips with us today. And if you are a window treatment dealer and you’re inspired by some of Amy’s things, you know, feel free to reach out to her and make sure to apply these to your business where you can and really start using these strategies to build your business to the next point. If you love this episode, obviously, please consider sending it to a friend in the industry.

Like us on YouTube like us on the podcast networks and make sure you’ll never miss another episode Amy thank you so much for being on we really appreciate it and we’ll see everybody in the next episode

Amy Wolff (38:22)
Thanks Will, always great to chat with you.

TRANSCRIPT

Will Hanke (00:00)
All right, hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk to real window treatment and awning service providers and business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today we’ve got a guest with some great insights that I’m excited to interview and I’ve known for a long time. She’s an award-winning designer and decorator providing custom window treatments in the Scottsdale, Arizona area.

She is the winner of 2017 Specialty Windows Award, 2021 Top Treatments, and in 2022, the Vision Design Award for Outdoor. Amy recently celebrated being in the industry for 20 years. She’s developed a reputation for successfully delivering functional solutions for intricate or technically challenging window configurations, including custom window shades, custom and motorized window treatments, draperies, and even custom upholstered furniture. Amy from Amy Wolf Interiors, thank you for being on the show today.

Amy (01:07)
Thanks for having me, Will.

Will Hanke (01:08)
Yeah, I really do appreciate you jumping on. So I saw and I just read in your bio that you’ve been in the industry for 20 years. Congrats on that milestone. That’s pretty awesome. What inspired you to get into window treatments and interior design in the first place?

Amy (01:19)
Thank you.

You know, it sounds cliche, but I was kind of born with it. I always did it. Even as a little kid, I was rearranging my room and painting it. So it’s just stuff that I’ve always done.

Will Hanke (01:40)
OK, yeah, that’s cool. it was you it was you were just born with it, right?

Amy (01:44)
Hahaha

Will Hanke (01:46)
I love that. So, so tell me a little bit about your business, Amy Wolf Interiors. Who do you serve and what sets you apart in your area?

Amy (01:54)
Well, I’m a solopreneur. I do not have a storefront. work from home because I go to my client’s home. I serve mostly, you know, the 45 plus crowd, the people who want some more luxury, the people who are willing to pay for custom, for something more unique than you could just buy online. or at Home Depot. And so that’s my crowd. They’re at the point in their life where they want better things, you know, and buy good by once and they just, you know, want to treat themselves better at the end of the day.

Will Hanke (02:40)
And you’re the right area for it. I know the Scottsdale area is growing like weeds Yeah, that’s great. So Talking about those maybe higher-end clients. I guess we could call them How do you position yourself to get those premium clients? for your services

Amy (02:45)
Always.

Well, your whole brand, because I’m my brand, you you just position it differently. We don’t put out sales and we can beat anybody’s price. That’s not us. There’s plenty of people to do that for the people who want that. And that’s a good thing. And it’s more of a personal service. You deal with me. I’m not going to send three different salesmen. Out or you know and of course I have an excellent virtual team you know I have excellent workrooms I have the best installer so everything you know we have an onboarding we have an initial call we confirm everything you know our appointment we let them know we’re on the way you have to be very consistent because people are looking for that high customer service experience that you know there was a time that was the norm now they think it’s exceptional

and

Will Hanke (03:51)
I love that you have a complete onboarding process and you’re really giving them an experience before you even do any work, really.

Amy (04:00)
Well, and at the same time, kind of qualifying them as well. You know, that they are the right client. Because, hey, it isn’t fair to my other clients to take time away from someone who isn’t a good fit. And I’m okay with that because there will be some, you know, I try to point them in the right direction if I’m not. So.

Will Hanke (04:20)
Yeah,

yeah. In my world of digital marketing, there’s a thing where the form on your website, the more fields you put, the less likely people are to fill it out. However, the people that take the time to fill that out tend to be better clients. So I’m sure putting them through this same sort of process is very similar to that.

Amy (04:43)
Well, I don’t put them through every single one, make them fill out a form. It’s more of a phone call form. But you’re right, the ones who fill out my form online to contact me, they’ve already committed. Because they’ve taken the time, they’ve gone through and they like what they see already, and they’ll fill in what they’re looking for. So those are usually good solid prospects.

Will Hanke (05:09)
like that. So you mentioned that you have an installer on your team. Do you have a workroom that helps with some of the things that you do?

Amy (05:13)
Yes.

Well, I have local workrooms that make just about everything we do in terms of soft treatments. Draperies, cornices, valances, you know, yes, and they also make custom upholstered furniture and they’re very good at what they do. And my installer is a separate person. Like I said, I kind of have a virtual firm and as needed call people in so we can accept a fair amount of volume.

Will Hanke (05:24)
Okay.

it yeah and you’re not just focused specifically on window treatments you’ll help them with other things as well right

Amy (05:52)
I do, you know, I really, it’s my favorite thing to do. So I’ve really narrowed. I mean, I used to do remodels and new builds, pick all the, you know, all the finishes for those lighting countertops, cabinetry, everything. And I’ve pretty much eliminated that. I will help my window treatment clients if you know, Hey, what do you think of this? Where should I get that? If they want custom lighting, I’ll get it.

but it isn’t something I chase after anymore in terms of a full blown house project like that.

Will Hanke (06:23)
Okay.

Okay. There’s plenty of work in that part of the country, as I mentioned earlier. So it’s nice that you can be a little bit more specific about your audience.

Amy (06:29)
Yeah.

Yeah, it’s just, it’s what I enjoy doing the most. And trust me, there’s plenty of competition in both. There’s plenty of interior designers doing all the design work and there’s plenty of other window covering companies out here too. And they all have a different niche, but there’s some overlap. You’re going to run into some now and again.

Will Hanke (06:55)
Yeah. Yeah. Have you created any special strategies to compete against the other people in town, specifically the larger dealers without compromising your kind of like boutique service model?

Amy (07:10)
Well, let’s face it, the larger dealers have a huge advertising and marketing budget. You know, I can’t bid against them at $500 a lead on Google, you know, and being everywhere like that. So I honed in and, you know, geographically, I honed in a lot closer to home because I provide better service if I can get there sooner or I can get there.

Will Hanke (07:22)
Right.

Amy (07:37)
you know, without having to schedule someone out a week and a half because I don’t have a big enough block of time for travel because it’s a big valley here and there are people who go anywhere. Well, that could be an hour and a half away. And that doesn’t serve my clients well. So I have honed into a very specific geographic area. Will I go elsewhere? Yes, but I don’t market to it. And what I do that’s different from the larger is the personal service.

You’re not one of five appointments today. know, at most I’ll schedule two. A morning and an afternoon at most. Because there’s folks who I’m out of there in 45 minutes or an hour who are very decisive, they were very crisp on what they said they wanted. And there’s others who you like to chat and get to know you and take longer. And so I’m not, you know, hit and run, hit and run, hit and run. It’s just a more personal experience. And these are the people who like that.

Will Hanke (08:28)
Yeah, that’s great.

Amy (08:29)
They’re not calling

five people and saying hand me a quote, hand me a quote, hand me a quote. That’s not my clientele.

Will Hanke (08:36)
sure. Do you have a way to filter those types of people out before you ever make it to their home?

Amy (08:42)
Usually on the initial phone call that’s usually between you know 20 minutes in an hour depending on how much they have to do and how much I’m trying to decipher Because they’ll tell you what they think they want, but that doesn’t mean they’re using the correct terminology You know I’ve had people call and say they want curtains, and they really wanted a shade So you have to you have to you know Go down through that to see what they was is in their mind’s eye that they don’t know how to describe

And I’ll also probe them, have you done custom before? Do you know what this costs? And ways to, now we can value engineer. There’s ways we can do something for most people’s budgets, if they’re realistic. I mean, if you’re comparing to buying panels off of Amazon, well, that’s not realistic. You’re not getting the same thing. And I’ll explain to them, if that’s what you want, that’s fine, just understand what you’re getting.

Cause there’s places for that. Put them in the guest room.

Will Hanke (09:38)
sense.

Yeah. And you mentioned earlier that you really don’t compete on price. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Amy (09:47)
I don’t because again, it’s a very custom product I give you. don’t sell name household brands, let’s say. I’m not one of those dealers. I was at one time. sell products that, as I tell my clients, I sell you products that don’t make you cry or give me headaches.

Will Hanke (10:07)
I like that. I like that.

Amy (10:08)
Well, callbacks cost money. So if I sell, you know, let’s say roller shades, motorized stuff, I sell stuff we don’t get callbacks on. That costs a little more upfront, but then it’s not a cost to me or heartache for them later on in the quality. people who are interested in quality, you know, are more likely to pick me. If you’re shopping strictly price,

We probably didn’t even get to the first appointment because I’ve already had that conversation. Or I’ll tell them, go ahead, go get all your pricing and come on back, let me see what you got. And we can or not take it from there. It’s an understanding what you’re getting for the money and the personal service. And of course, custom, you can’t, if you’re doing, we have huge windows here. So it can be very difficult to get something like draperies online or in the store.

Because they’re so tall and wide that sometimes custom is your only option. So, you know, can you go try and price shop that? Sure. I don’t know how effective that is.

Will Hanke (11:05)
Okay. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. So in your area, you mentioned the big windows. What is the breakdown between hard and soft treatments? Do you think for your customers?

Amy (11:25)
Well, I definitely sell more hard treatments because it’s the desert and it’s dusty. So a lot of folks don’t want draperies in that. Although they’ll do cornices, they’ll do top treatments of different kinds, or they’ll just do some side panels. So probably, I’m going to say 70-30.

Will Hanke (11:44)
Okay, interesting.

Amy (11:45)
I realized you know I Forget someone was asking me it could have been you Motorization now is probably 75 % of all the shades I order So even if someone’s doing the whole house Very few motorized the whole house For instance they’ll put cordless in the guest room because they don’t want the guests to be messing around with a remote and it’s just easier

Will Hanke (11:57)
wow, okay.

You

Amy (12:11)
So they won’t, even they won’t do the whole house or the garage. You don’t need to motorize the garage shades. You need to open them twice a year when you have the windows cleaned. Right? Yeah. So that’s part of the value engineering. say too, okay, hey, we can save here, we can save there. That makes sense.

Will Hanke (12:20)
Makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you have people that motorize one room and then realize how awesome it is and then call you back as a separate project?

Amy (12:38)
Yes. Plus I have folks who, you know, for whatever reason they don’t want to or they can’t do the whole house at once. So we do it in phases. And we can plan that out. That’s fine. I have one now who regrets not motorizing eight windows. And she happens to have the same size windows in other rooms. We’re going to move them and motorize that room down.

Will Hanke (12:46)
Sure.

that’s a great idea. OK.

OK. Very cool. So as I said early on, you’ve won a lot of awards around design. And I’ve seen some of the things that you’ve done. I know that PR is a big piece of everything you do. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Amy (13:06)
Mm-hmm.

Well, I actually just started doing that. and it was suggested to me when, know, I was talking about my 20th anniversary, I said, wow, you really got to promote that. Is that I got a guy who is a, you know, a PR professional. So I said, okay, let’s do it. And it exploded to me is, you know, you’re working, you’re doing your job, whatever. It isn’t a big deal, but apparently it’s a big news deal. So.

We’re going to try and do more frequent things. We did another one on the tariff situation, how that could be affecting our business or not. It isn’t affecting mine because almost everything I do is made in the USA. And that really started because of COVID accessibility to things. So I brought things as local as I possibly could, whether it’s hard treatments or custom draperies and top treatments.

Even that’s what even got us into custom upholstery because the big, the higher end furniture manufacturers in North Carolina weren’t going to deliver for 18 months. I said, well, that’s not acceptable. So we started making them here.

Will Hanke (14:25)
I love that. That’s a great work around that worked out well for you.

Amy (14:31)
Well, and it’s actually worked out better for my clients because it’s at the same price as your higher end brands, know, your Hancock and Moore Century. Same price, but even more customized because they can go to the little showroom at my upholster and sit on different cushions. Yeah, I like this firmness or I like that one and pick any fabric we want. And, you know, the turnaround was, you know, a couple of months, not 18 and

Will Hanke (14:58)
You

Amy (15:00)
The freight for one client went from for two sofas and four, you know, big armchairs. The freight went from $3,800 down to 250 because our local white glove delivered. So it benefits everyone really.

Will Hanke (15:13)
that’s great.

Yeah. So on the on the PR, what are you doing? Are you just doing a press release or are you are you trying to get on local TV? Any of that kind of stuff?

Amy (15:26)
We haven’t gone to the local TV yet because a lot of that here is actually paid. Even though they act like yeah, so you have to pay for that spot. So we’re doing mostly mostly newspaper magazine. Trade. Journals so everything from local to to the trade. All the shelter stuff.

Will Hanke (15:45)
Okay, so you’re specifically sending a press release or some information to them and hoping to get an interview or something in those types of publications.

Amy (15:53)
Yes,

and just being picked up, it all helps with backlinks to the website. So that all helps as well. Plus I promote them on social media locally all over.

Will Hanke (16:00)
Yeah, sure.

Okay, very good. All right, so another thing that you’ve mentioned in the past is direct marketing. Tell me about that piece.

Amy (16:10)
Ahem.

Well, you know, really you want repeat and referral. That’s the golden. So, Repeat and referral is key. And then I do a lot of very local social media I’ve done really well with Nextdoor. A lot of nice referrals there. And where I live, there are at least a half dozen, could be 10.

Will Hanke (16:27)
Okay.

Amy (16:36)
social media neighborhood area pages and it’s funny they all have certain days you can post your business so on Tuesdays it’s this page Wednesdays it’s that page Thursday so I just repeat the same one all week I’ve now gotten into a system of doing that and the nice thing is you have your cheerleaders who will give you a thumbs up or a comment every time so that helps it and then people already think they know you you’re already my friend

Will Hanke (16:49)
love it.

Amy (17:03)
I had two appointments in the last month. People are like, I feel like you’re my friend. Even though we hadn’t met before. So, and then there’s certain kinds of posts that work better than others. They all love the PR ones because that’s, wow, look at you. You got some news. and other ones, the most effective are, after photos. They want to see what a job looks like. I don’t put the before photos because sometimes the clients are embarrassed.

Will Hanke (17:08)
Sure, sure.

okay.

Amy (17:31)
But people love, that gets the most reactions, the most engagement are after photos as opposed to, hey, look at the new fabrics I got.

Will Hanke (17:42)
Yeah. I love that you’re posting on the different pages, you know, for the different days when you get to post your business. Are you only doing organic type posting or are you actually paying for ads on Nextdoor?

Amy (17:55)
I used to pay for ads on Nextdoor and I found it didn’t get any more response than just posting.

Will Hanke (18:03)
Yeah, so you’re just taking the time.

Amy (18:04)
And it seems the more you post,

the more neighborhoods they’ll show.

Will Hanke (18:08)
Okay. Okay. And then you just have a list of which ones on which days. That’s fantastic.

Amy (18:09)
So.

I put it in my calendar now because I’m terrible. I hate social media. I’m terrible at it. So now that I have a list of what day what goes where, as soon as I get the first one out, then I just copy it and paste it all week.

Will Hanke (18:28)
Perfect. Yeah. Well, let’s talk a little bit about business cycles. sometimes the industry is doing great. Sometimes the industry is really slow. What practical steps can business owners take to kind of maintain that stability during these ups and downs?

Amy (18:43)
I think that if you’re consistent, I mean, there’s going to be slow times and there isn’t a lot you can do about it. But if you’re consistent, I think with your message, for instance, last year was an election year. Those are always really weird years, but I did a lot better than I expected. And I think some of this consistency led toward that. There’s certain seasons for me.

And maybe the rest of the industry, don’t know if it’s a geographic thing or not, that are slower. January can be slower after the holidays. Sometimes between Thanksgiving and Christmas it can be slow because I say once the tree’s up nobody wants to see me. But you know it’s a good year when you’re still getting appointments in December that aren’t installations. And then sometimes August here can be a little slow.

And I think it’s now a lot of folks leave for the summer here. We have a lot of snowbirds. but they’ve been gone all summer. Usually they’re usually gone in May or June. So August could be a little slower and I think a lot of that might have to do with back to school, even though my really priority clients don’t have school age kids. So I just think it’s August. People are getting in their last vacations and such.

Will Hanke (20:01)
makes sense. Yeah. And I would assume Arizona is not the best place to be in August in the first place.

Amy (20:07)
We have air conditioning.

Will Hanke (20:08)
Yeah,

fair enough.

Amy (20:10)
I said I’m not a roofer or a baggage handler, so life is good.

Will Hanke (20:14)
Yes, very true. Very true. In the industry, although overall you said, you know, there’s slow times, there’s there’s great times. Do you see any trends right now in the window treatment industry? And if you do, how are you adapting to stay ahead of those?

Amy (20:28)
I don’t know if there’s trends in terms of well, I am getting a little bit more soft treatment inquiry than just blinds, know, the utilitarian. Now I’m getting a little bit more of what I’d consider luxury, optional items, because you here you have to have blinds or shades, something on your windows. There’s just that’s not negotiable, you know.

It’s just a matter of what you’re gonna spend on it and how you’re going to do it. So there’s more inquiry and that, you know, I still can’t predict how that’s gonna be up or down trend wise, but it is trending now to more luxury. So.

Will Hanke (21:09)
Really interesting

that you say that because I also do a quarterly podcast with different guests and the last two quarters, so Q3 and Q4 of 2024, that’s one thing that they’ve mentioned is that the luxury market seems to be popping up a little bit more. So it’s interesting that you also bring that up.

Amy (21:30)
Mm-hmm

Right and even more interest as well. I’m starting to get a little interested in the custom upholstery again because people Want a quality item? Yeah, you can go buy a sofa for you know $800 This isn’t the $800 crowd, you know, they they want something they’re gonna use every day and and you know quality items, so

Will Hanke (21:38)
Okay.

Amy (21:59)
It’s just, and it’s a state of mind, by the way. You asked about luxury neighborhoods. It isn’t all 5,000 and 10,000 square foot homes. Somebody could have a 2,500 or even 1,800 square foot patio home or town home, but they’re at the point of their life that they want it all perfect and beautiful.

Will Hanke (22:22)
Okay, interesting. When it comes to design trends, what’s your favorite?

Amy (22:26)
You know, it’s funny, I like a lot of stuff. I really do. As you can see, I like color. It’s more what I don’t like. I was so sick of the gray thing the week it came out. That’s pretty much gone. I really do like all, you know, I like the opportunity to do all different styles for people. You know, I have one who’s just doing.

Will Hanke (22:29)
You

Yeah.

Amy (22:47)
plain black leather cornices. And they’re gonna look really striking where she’s putting them. And other people want all the bells and whistles, completely different styles, both equally fun.

Will Hanke (22:59)
So I think you like the idea of every one of them being different from each other.

Amy (23:03)
absolutely. In fact, that’s another one of my selling points that people happen to love is that once you choose a fabric, I won’t sell it again. So it’s yours. So people may be able to find elsewhere, but they’re not getting it from me because to me it’s custom. So I’m not selling it to someone else. I may sell it another color. And I mean, look, this is a fraction of the books and stuff. There’s plenty of fabrics.

Will Hanke (23:14)
OK. that’s fantastic.

Amy (23:31)
There’s no reason I can’t make one exclusive for a client. And they love that.

Will Hanke (23:36)
That’s a great selling point. When it comes to your dream project, what does that look like?

Amy (23:38)
Yeah.

You know, I had to think about that. And I think it’d be super fun to do like a whole house of motorized draperies. You know, like hotels.

That would be just fabulous.

Will Hanke (23:54)
Yeah.

OK, very cool. All motorized. Yeah, all working together. And I guess you do the smart home piece of that as well.

Amy (23:58)
Fuck, cuz fabrics are fun, you know?

We will talk to your smart home. We will make sure whatever we put in Seize your smart home. We’re not going to go into programming in your smart home So we will help the homeowner Okay, you whether it’s on their iPad or their phone or whatever. Okay, it sees our shade It’s operating or the drapery. It’s operating You have to go in and tell it if you want different scenes times a day or all that

Will Hanke (24:32)
Sure.

Yeah. Sure.

Amy (24:34)
We won’t do that. We’ll get

it all working and make sure it sees it, but we don’t want to go into somebody’s smart home because they have so many things in there that we just don’t want to want to touch. And sometimes we have to call the smart home people because they have so many things. We need them to open up another channel or whatever it is for us because that’s the only reason it’s not seated is that you’ve already got eight other things on there. You know, the TVs, the lights, I mean,

Will Hanke (24:43)
That’s right.

Amy (25:03)
outdoor misters outdoor fans you know they’ve got everything on cameras so

Will Hanke (25:07)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah,

as a guy who is really into the smart home piece of everything, I would prefer somebody just set it up and hand it to me to build for me to build the automations anyway.

Amy (25:23)
Well that’s it too, because your preferences could change. So the cool thing is the folks who want them to go up at night and day, now the software knows when is night and day. You don’t have to reset it all year.

Will Hanke (25:36)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think for the snowbirds, too, there’s probably different automations for when they’re not there. Right.

Amy (25:38)
So.

Well, most of the time they’ll have them down the whole time. But okay, now got somebody coming to do something at the house while I’m gone. Okay, let me open those for them while I’m in Colorado.

Will Hanke (25:46)
Okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

Amy (25:57)
But I’ll tell you what, that’s still a very small percentage that go to that extent. At least of my clients, I’m going to say it’s 5%. The rest just want a handheld remote. They don’t want to, even though they can do it. And I sell them because some could change their mind in a year or two. So I sell them the motors that we can get them programmed later on.

Will Hanke (26:04)
Okay.

Makes sense. Yeah.

Amy (26:19)
Yeah, in case

they change their mind, we have the ability to add it later.

Will Hanke (26:23)
Yeah. Yeah. When they go to somebody else’s house and that person is like me really into it and shows them all the cool things they can do. Yeah.

Amy (26:31)
Right.

But at the end of the day, isn’t it really just a show-off thing? You know, I mean, there’s some level for home security, but otherwise to have everything going is, you know.

Will Hanke (26:36)
Yes, a little bit.

Yeah, fair enough.

Let’s talk about single room projects. Do you have any strategies to upsell somebody who just calls you for a single room and try to get them to do more of a whole house project?

Amy (26:57)
You know, they almost upsell themselves a lot of times because they see how beautiful the one room came out and they’re, oh, yeah, now I got to do this room. That’s, you know, unless they’ve called me because they’ve had everything else done. Or let’s say they bought the home and everything was done except a certain room. But a lot of times they kind of upsell themselves.

Will Hanke (27:17)
That’s great. I think that goes back to your process and the onboarding and giving them an experience right off the bat.

Amy (27:24)
And then they see how effortless it is for them.

They really like not having to do anything, not having to run around and find fabric, not having to do all those things that some do-it-yourselfers like to do. They find that fun. But these folks like to have the whole thing taken care of. I just want to go to lunch or play golf or I’ve got other things going on, you know, that I just don’t want to do this.

Will Hanke (27:27)
like that.

You

Yeah, yeah, for window treatment businesses that are looking to run more smoothly like that, what systems or processes should they focus on first?

Amy (28:01)
the customer facing ones. You know, it’s like the duck that looks real calm on the surface and the legs are going like crazy underneath. Have the customer, you need to focus, make sure your customer facing processes are, because that’s where the money comes from. We work for them. And then your internal ones, you know, are equally important, but you can take care of those in the background.

when you’re not taking care of your clients.

Will Hanke (28:27)
Very good. You mentioned the money comes from them. When you’re presenting those higher end window treatments, how do you ensure that you still are making a healthy margin off of that?

Amy (28:39)
Well, you know, you have to charge what you need to get your gross and your net profit. You need to know what your costs are. And I’ll tell you what, just because mine may be lower than say someone who has a showroom, that doesn’t mean I’m going to charge less. It’s a value to the client. It’s the end product they’re getting. So yeah, I put healthy profit on things. And most people watching this,

Even if you have a huge showroom and you’re a multi-million dollar shade, you know blind and shade dealer You know what your formulas need to be? To make to make your profit, but most people in the business say a rule of thumb, you know is is double your cost For openers now, there’s some shade people who don’t do that because they’re doing a lot of volume But then to me you’re always playing catch-up

Will Hanke (29:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

Amy (29:29)
and those are also the folks who the price shoppers or their clientele so it’s just a different business model nothing wrong with it just a different model not one that I ever wanted

Will Hanke (29:37)
Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Back to not competing on price. think that lowers your stress, right? Maybe less clients, but better clients and less stress for you.

Amy (29:50)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Better clients, you know, better margins. Yeah, I mean, you know, the better clients, the less running you’re doing, which is also why I narrowed my geography, too.

Will Hanke (30:03)
Make sense? Yep. Okay. So I want to do a marketing myth or fact with you. Homeowners in older homes are less likely to invest in custom window treatments.

Amy (30:09)
Okay.

that’s definitely a myth. they wear out. I would say I have 60, 40, 60 new homes, new move-ins versus 40 that they’ve been in the home 15, 20 years. And, you know, the, the, the blinds had a nice life. They’re, they’re over it. They want motorization. They want a cleaner look.

I mean it’s completely different. Look, they have verticals. know? Things that, you know, the old plastic verticals of the old hardware store with all the strings and such and no, it’s definitely a myth.

Will Hanke (30:52)
Very good. Here’s another one. Myth or fact? Luxury clients only come from high end neighborhoods.

Amy (30:59)
No, that’s a myth too. As I said before, well, you know, it could be a townhouse. Maybe it’s a high-end neighborhood, but you don’t judge that, you know, they’re not gonna spend a lot because to me, it’s a state of mind. I mean, I market to the higher-end homes when I see no home closings, because that’s an easy grab to market to, but…

No, you don’t assume, because I’ll tell you what, and I live in the desert, so there’s a lot of ranches and such. You don’t know what’s behind that gate. And sometimes you get back there and it’s Oz, I mean. Everything is like beautiful and manicured. You have no idea from the gate what you’re gonna find. So I never assume.

Will Hanke (31:48)
Yeah, yeah. So obviously you market more to the high end with the on purpose marketing. As your company grows and you have these different growth opportunities, how do you evaluate those? You know, along with I know you do a lot of traveling, diving, those sorts of things. How do you keep your business going and growing with keeping that stuff in mind as well?

Amy (31:56)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Well, I plan my trips when it’s generally going to be slower here. I do stay in contact. See, this is another thing with hiring people. If I’m out of town and we have our initial call while I’m away or something, they’ll wait. Price shoppers want you there this afternoon.

Especially if you build a rapport with them and you know, generally they like to travel too. They like to do so they understand

Will Hanke (32:41)
Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you for sharing that. So a couple last bonus questions. Is there a design trend in window treatments that you secretly dislike but your clients love?

Amy (32:44)
I’m

I really can’t think of one. Quite frankly, know, the new regulations with strings and such makes my life a lot easier because there’s a lot less choices in terms of how to operate things. And a lot of times I make that decision for my client. I’ll say to them, okay, and this one, if we’re not doing motorization, let’s say, okay, well, this is what you need to have here. And then, you know, that’s that.

Will Hanke (33:09)
You

Amy (33:16)
I take the options away because I know what’s gonna function best for them. And so that helps. But no, there isn’t anything I secretly hate because it isn’t about me. It’s not my home. Does it work at your home?

Will Hanke (33:30)
Right. Yeah, makes sense. I know that you did mention earlier the gray thing and quite honestly, my wife went through that maybe a year ago and we’re already talking about repainting.

Amy (33:36)
Ha!

But here’s the good thing. It’s just paint.

Will Hanke (33:46)
Right.

Amy (33:47)
So when clients were into that, I wouldn’t let them put it on the expensive stuff, like your shades, your countertops, your floors, things that are expensive to replace. I would move more toward grayish. You know that beige gray? And then otherwise, it’s just paint. It’s a pain, but it isn’t expensive in the scheme of things.

Will Hanke (34:08)
Right.

Yeah,

yeah. As long as you don’t use that to match everything up like you said. And then when it comes to repainting, now we have to start over.

Amy (34:19)
February would…

Will Hanke (34:21)
Yeah, yeah. So Amy, if someone wants to learn more about your work and what you do, where’s the best place for them to connect with you?

Amy (34:28)
Well, obviously my website www.amywolffinteriors.com and that’s with two F’s as you see right there. And, or call me, text me.

Will Hanke (34:39)
Okay. Lastly, what are the three most important business lessons that you’ve learned in your over 20 years that could help other people listening to the podcast?

Amy (34:49)
Well, one, decide what kind of business you want to be.

You know, do you want to be a huge showroom with all kinds of salespeople and all that? Or do you want to be a boutique solopreneur like me or something in between? Decide what you want to be.

Find out who your priority customers are, your premium clientele. Who are they? Where do you find them?

And then, you know, everything beyond that kind of rolls into place. But you have to be consistent as well. You can’t, you can’t try and be both. I don’t think. Yes, do, do the big showrooms offer what I do? Sure they do. Do they do it the same way? No. So I think that’s the hardest part is deciding what kind of business you want to be and who you’re going to serve.

Will Hanke (35:37)
Yeah, good point. We talk about in my world, the message, the market and the media, right? If you know who the market is and you know, you know what message you’re going to say to them, you’re 75 % of the world in this case, 66 % of the way done, right?

Amy (35:45)
Right.

Right. Right. And there isn’t a right or wrong answer. It’s you choose what you want it to look like. And, know, there was a point in the last 20 years where I could have gone a different way, but as I thought about it and I had gone to a, was invited, it was a big deal to this VIP designer business seminar, running your business and all these other, and as I sat there,

And they’re like, what’s your takeaway? And I thought, wow, my takeaway is I don’t want 12 or 20 people working for me to be responsible for feeding all those families. My personal choice. Can I make the same salary as those owners without having to worry about all these other families? And so that’s just my personal choice, you know.

Will Hanke (36:46)
Yeah,

that’s great. And that’s the way that you’ve built your business to be in that position. That’s great. Amy, thank you. Yeah, yeah, I’ll bet. Last question. I know I said last already. You’re 20 years into this with your business. What do the next five years look like for you?

Amy (36:53)
Right. But it was an aha moment.

You

Well, that’s a good question. mean, I love doing this, but I mean, at some point you want to figure out a retirement gig. So, you know, I’m just mulling over in my head what that would look like.

What would a laptop life look like that keeps me still in the industry?

Will Hanke (37:29)
Yeah. And I know that you like to travel and diving is something that you really love. So obviously you probably want to do more of that, right?

Amy (37:34)
Yes.

Well, who

Will Hanke (37:39)
Well, Amy, thank you so much for being on. You shared some incredible tips with us today. And if you are a window treatment dealer and you’re inspired by some of Amy’s things, you know, feel free to reach out to her and make sure to apply these to your business where you can and really start using these strategies to build your business to the next point. If you love this episode, obviously, please consider sending it to a friend in the industry.

Like us on YouTube like us on the podcast networks and make sure you’ll never miss another episode Amy thank you so much for being on we really appreciate it and we’ll see everybody in the next episode

Amy Wolff (38:22)
Thanks Will, always great to chat with you.

Summary

In this episode of Marketing Panes, window treatment experts Josh Tycksen (Best Blinds and Sexy Shutters, Arizona) and Vince Sturkie (Best Blinds and Shutters, Carolinas) shared their experiences from 2024 and insights for 2025. The discussion covered market trends, technological adaptations, and strategic business approaches in the window treatment industry.

Guests Profile: Vince Sturkie

Started Best Blinds in 2001 after spending years in the mortgage banking industry. In 2001 I started and built Columbia SC’s largest window treatment store. After selling the Blind business I went back to mortgage banking by starting Hilton Head Mortgage in Hilton Head Island SC. But, I found myself right back in the window fashions industry when I started Best Blinds and Shutters in Greenville SC.in 2019. I now employ 2 of my 3 children along with my wife Sandra where we believe our greatest asset is that we are a local family owned business.

Josh Tycksen

Owner of Best Blinds and Sexy Shutters
With a background in professional ballroom dance, Josh Tycksen brings precision, artistry, and attention to detail to every window treatment project, making Best Blinds and Shutters a trusted name in Arizona home improvement.

Other Notes/Links:

To learn more about

Vince Sturkie visit:

Best Blinds and Shutters

Josh Tycksen visit:

Best Blinds and Sexy Shutters

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

Listen to other episodes

Video

https://youtu.be/OlS7zhOGN5w

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Transcript

All right, hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers and business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today, we are doing our Q4 review slash Q1 outlook for 2025 and excited to have two of the best window treatment dealers.

in the US on today and that’s a little bit of a play on words here. So we’ve got Josh Tixon, owner of Best Blinds and Sexy Shudders. Josh has a background in professional ballroom dancing. Josh brings precision, artistry and attention to detail to every window treatment project, making Best Blinds and Shudders a trusted name in the Arizona home improvement. And then we’ve got Vince Sturkey, owner of Best Blinds and Shudders.

Vince Sturkey owns Best Blinds and Shudders with a commitment to quality and trust, providing custom blind shades and shutters to homes across upstate South Carolina and western North Carolina. Guys, thanks so much for being on today.

Vince Sturkie (01:13)
Thanks Will.

Will Hanke (01:15)
Really appreciate you guys jumping on. So we’re going to get into a little bit of the Q4 and Q1 outlook kind of stuff. first, I have a personal question for each of you. Josh, I’m very intrigued by your journey from professional ballroom dancing to window treatments. How has that background and precision and artistry influenced your approach to the business?

Josh Tycksen (01:40)
It’s interesting. I’ve never really thought about it that way. I just grew up doing it because it was a good hobby. It a good way to meet chicks. My mom said I had to be in either some form of dance or art or music and I liked movement and I like music. I’m a very energetic person. I look like I’m always on about 10 Dr. Peppers, but I don’t really drink a lot of caffeine actually. I just have a lot of natural energy, but the benefits coming from it though are I had to work with a lot of different people in a very intimate

Will Hanke (01:46)
you

Josh Tycksen (02:09)
setting, know, where like partnering with somebody, your hands are right on each other, on each other’s back or whatever, and you’re very close and these boundaries are very different. And in learning how to work with, you know, so many different partners and people in those settings, I think it set me up for a lot more success working with the different kinds of people that I encounter on a daily basis in our appointments. And I can read a lot of body language. I don’t even think about it. I just can see it and other people might.

not notice those same things, you know, yeah. And, know, and it just, yeah, a lot of attention to detail, cause that’s all you do. You practice some things and he says, Hey, that’s wrong. Do it again. Hey, that’s wrong. Do it again. It’s just the art of perfection. You’re just chasing over and over. And, the presentation at the end is something with the wow factor you’re really going for, where if you’re putting on a show or a performance that people want to be excited about it, and that’s what gets people come into your shows. And so I tend to have a same.

flair for our things where I like to show up at the end of installs if I’m not already part of it. And I like to get them so jacked about the products that we’re putting up by the time they’re done that they really do appreciate things that they might not otherwise know about them and kind of go through a little bit of care and, you know, just tutorial with them where we get them all excited. Cause then by the end they’re, you know, they’re like, wow, wow. I had no idea. And, I think that takes them over the top where we can then ask them for those reviews and stuff, you know, really kind of kind of.

rolls a cycle that just helps you grow and helps you stay busy.

Will Hanke (03:38)
Yeah,

that’s a great strategy. I love the energy. I think that’s big piece, especially showing up at the end of the install and kind of hyping them up, right? That’s super cool.

Very good.

Josh Tycksen (03:51)
Yeah,

I 100 % agree. Especially, mean, like our favorite thing to sell is automation because people want automation. A lot of people ask for it not having any idea what it costs. And they just are thinking about the wow factor part of it. So if you can get them over the price and have something that you know they can count on and love and then really go through and set it up for them, they get really excited about it. So it’s fun.

Will Hanke (04:13)
Yeah.

Very cool. So Vince, question for you too. We were talking before we started today about Josh’s business being called Sexy Shudders. And your comment was around the North Carolina, South Carolina area being a little more conservative. How does that play into your sales approach?

Vince Sturkie (04:34)
well you definitely got to you know check the room when you walk in every home here because you you know you could you know you don’t know so many people that are here came from somewhere else so you know when we’re here you know we we’re you know we’re country a lot of us are country boys from south carolina you know it’s more rural than it is urban and suburban here but you know we we’re we’re you know we walk in we see things you know you’re like okay what do i what hat do i need to wear today

when i’m dealing with these folks but you know people move here for a reason and you know generally they have something in common with the people that are already here and they want to be here with us and so we just kinda just it’s just business as usual really for every single home you know we just went through the election that was kind of political you know you had to you know be a little bit more balanced and careful because you never know what home you’re in

But at the end of the day, people are people. And they want to be helped with what they need. And they want you to treat them the way they want to be treated. And if you got all those bases covered, none of that’s going to matter. But it’s made for South Carolina to be a great place to do business right now.

Will Hanke (05:46)
Nice. Yeah. Like Josh said, you kind of got to read the room, right? And see what’s going on when you walk in.

Vince Sturkie (05:54)
Yes, absolutely. My installers can’t wear their Trump 24 hats on the job, right? I’m just like, keep it in the truck. But you know, we got a couple of different people here, so they’re all wearing different hats. But I just try to tell them that we’re here to love everybody, serve everybody, and everybody’s getting the same treatment with us.

Will Hanke (06:16)
Yeah, yeah, that’s great. Thank you. So let’s jump in and talk about Q4, how it’s been. And I think the big thing here is what is the biggest surprising shift that you guys have seen in customer preferences for window treatments?

Josh Tycksen (06:35)
Benz, you want to go first, you’re welcome to.

Vince Sturkie (06:36)
Yeah,

I think for us here in South Carolina, Will, you know, we’re also getting a lot more requests for motorization than we’ve ever gotten. So we’re hearing motorization more so. Because we have a lot of people here in the South that move from the North, you’ve got a lot of people still asking for Honeycomb Shades, which was real big in the Northeast. You know, whereas in the South, we didn’t do a lot of that product. So as people are migrating to us,

we’re seeing a shift toward more honeycombs than ever. Whereas back in 01 when I started, honeycombs were real big, now it’s roller shades, right? So, you know, we’re still seeing people come in asking for roller shades. I think the biggest shift now today in our industry from when I first got in it in 01 is the money flow. We’re having…

Back then the average ticket was less than two grand. Now we’re having people spend ten, fifteen thousand dollars like it’s two thousand dollars. And this is cash money, this isn’t borrowed money. So we’re seeing a shift toward higher tickets, we’re seeing a shift toward nicer products, and we’re seeing a shift in people being more easily letting go of the money. Which is really helpful in our business, especially when the margins start tightening.

Will Hanke (08:03)
Right. Yeah, Josh. I saw you nodding your head around the the motorization stuff. I know you actually mentioned The automation piece a little earlier. Is that the same thing you’re seeing?

Josh Tycksen (08:15)
Yeah, I mean, I’m trying to always open up our portfolio of what we’ll offer so that we’re current with the latest trends and what people are looking for. Our target market, like defining that really helped a lot. You know, after I got some business coaching a few years back, I want people in a new home. I want it to be their second or their third home. I’m not looking for a 25 to 30 year old in their first home where they could barely afford it. And they’re scraping by on what they can’t afford and instead getting somebody who’s 40 or older and they’ve got a, you

$750,000 home or more. And they’ve had an experience like this before. either put up their own window treatments or had a bad experience with somebody else, you know, or they may, once in a while, they may have not still put those in. But most of the time when that’s our target market, it’s a lot easier to, you know, work with people in what, I mean, price matters. I just don’t think it’s the most important thing. And that’s really hard when you’re going into quotes to get people off of that area and to really make sure that you can present the value.

and how the experience is going to go when they work with you, how your timeline is going to be kept, you know, and what they can expect from start to finish and after finish if there’s any problems going through those details, you know, as far as coming back to your question, being more specific to Q4, it’s so helpful to look at previous years to have that information, to see how many quotes we had from September into October into November into December, how many leads came in in those times, what those things were for and

Even being able to compare it to an election year and see the dip right before the election and then nine closed deals the day after Trump was elected. You know, okay, we’re good. got money. Okay, we’re good. You know, and the phone went off the hook and we closed nine deals the next day. You know, similar to what he said to, know, our average ticket going up, keeping track of that. mean, there’s our market here has a lot of new builds and I just kind of have moved my family to be closer to those because

Will Hanke (09:57)
you

Josh Tycksen (10:14)
I see people in new builds, they’re going to get it anyway. It’s a lot harder to quote somebody who thinks they want something because they saw an advertisement and they already have blinds in their house. So it’s not really a need. In a need situation, it’s a lot easier to the deal and you can present options.

Yeah, Q4 isn’t always a weird one in December. Right after the 15th up until the 31st, it’s just kind of weird. So just, up through the first 10 days of January, 15 days of January at least, and our trends have stayed the exact same. So it really helps me to be a lot more comfortable. Because I know you’ve seen me freak out on the marketing side where I’m saying, where’s my money going? How much would be allocated here and there? What are you focusing on? Why are we getting calls for this? It helps you calm down a little bit.

Will Hanke (10:39)
Yeah.

Josh Tycksen (10:59)
if you can look at those trends and see that they’re almost the exact same, you know, there’s very little variance.

Will Hanke (11:02)
Right.

Yeah, yeah, you mentioned the new builds. What percentage of your business typically is that? And has that increased over last couple of years?

Josh Tycksen (11:14)
Since I turned my focus to that, big time. I’d say for interior window treatments, I’d say it’s 90%. But we get, now that we’ve started doing patio shades where people get the patio shades or awnings, that’s not fair to say that that’s all with new builds. In fact, the patio shade demographic on the new builds is way lower because those people are already strapped for cash. They already just spent $100,000, $150,000 on the backyard and they already bought all this other stuff.

Will Hanke (11:18)
Okay.

Josh Tycksen (11:43)
We have a series that we try to do with them where we connect to those guys a year later. They’ve moved in now, they’ve gone through a lot of that first year of living in a home and now they’re ready for phase two. Right around March, April, there’s a really good opportunity to capitalize on that when they’re getting their tax returns, to send out good information and follow up. You do it in an effort to offer your help and assistance. If they have any questions about the products they got, if they’re running into any issues, if they feel like they need any additional chargers for their shades.

You know, or if they want to get the home automation kit now since they chose not to, but then also offering, did you realize, you know, that maybe you’re short on other products? Did you want to cover some of those windows? didn’t. Do you need solar screens to block the sun out? Do you want patio shades to make an indoor outdoor room? So the new build percentage for interior treatment, that is very high percentage.

Will Hanke (12:34)
Yeah. Vince, are you guys seeing something similar in the Carolinas?

Vince Sturkie (12:38)
Absolutely. It’s huge. And having been through the mortgage crisis of 08 where people stopped building homes and stopped buying homes, I mean it’s strong enough business increase that you’d lose sleep over it if you thought about what happens if it stops because it would be noticeable. Yeah, we would miss that piece of the business because it’s like Josh said, they have to buy window treatments. They’re not going to live in a $7,000- $800,000 home.

with paper shades for long. So at the end of the day, they’re buyers. All they need to do is like you, like your stuff, like your price, and they’re ready to write you a check. So we count on that part of the business, and we count on you. That’s where our digital marketing guru comes in, because we count on you to help keep our name in front of those people. They’re the hardest group to find on the internet, because realtors are looking for new movers.

And so when you’re trying to compete with them for the new movers, you know, it gets a little dicey because there’s a lot of money being spent trying to get that person’s attention because everybody wants the guy buying or building the house.

Will Hanke (13:46)
Sure. Yeah.

Josh Tycksen (13:48)
I found a lot of the biggest success we have in that is the neighborhood Facebook groups. If you find a new neighborhood and there’s construction going up and you get a customer and you can get in, you can get them to not just give you a review, but post something on the neighborhood Facebook group. It is the biggest return on investment you’ll ever get. matter what you offer them, you get somebody, a troll, a little Facebook troll in their neighborhood group who wants to be social with everybody there to give you some good, some good cloud in there.

We’ve done whole streets of homes on both sides.

Vince Sturkie (14:18)
That’s exactly

right. We probably got 20 in one neighborhood and it’s all because one gal is on Facebook promoting us all the time and it just goes like one after the other at that point because nothing’s better than the neighbor deal.

Will Hanke (14:35)
Yeah, similar approach for Nextdoor. We rolled out Nextdoor ads three or four months ago now. Josh, I think you started doing some of that.

Josh Tycksen (14:44)
return on those is fantastic. Way better than get from Google, at least I think so. It’s kind of hard for me to see which is which, but I just wanted to change the focus of our next door ads because most of it was coming back with patio shades and those are very labor heavy install. So growth in a different direction to be preferred, but we’ll take it really good from next door too. think that’s a very untapped market.

Will Hanke (15:12)
It really is. So they just rolled out their new ad platform maybe three or four months ago. We started rolling ours out shortly after that, or the ability to do the ads on there. And 50 % of our clients have already called back and said, let’s do more budget there. So I definitely think it’s something worth paying attention to. like you guys say, it’s very similar to the Facebook groups for the individual subdivisions or parts of town, that kind of stuff.

So another question, you guys made it through 2024, congrats. This year has been a very high peak, low valley kind of thing. It seems like you’re either on fire, Josh nine leads in one day and then probably nothing for a week or so. You know, it’s really these ups and downs are crazy. Did you guys experience that same kind of thing? And if so, what was kind of one of the biggest lessons that you learned this year?

Vince Sturkie (16:13)
For me, know, Will, I switched over, you know, I came on board with you a year ago. You know, so my first quarter of the year was the transition quarter where, you know, you dip before you rip. And so we were in panic mode at the first part of the year. But then as time went on, it just got better and better and better and better. you know, my reps are coming in from Graber and Alta and Norman and Hunter. They’re saying we’re 20 % down.

Will Hanke (16:13)
Vince, let’s start with

Vince Sturkie (16:43)
You should be 20 % down. That’s kind of the industry across the board. We’re not closing out this year 20 % lower than last year. We’re going to be right on par to close out the same year with probably about 5 or 6 % more in profit off of the same gross sales. I think we’re actually, this is our best year since I got back at it five years ago. So it’s encouraging when you hear that sales are down and you’re not.

And you know that but that’s been the word on the street, but I think I Think all things all things pointed in the right direction I think 25s could be the best year that I’ve seen since I’ve back in it five years ago Unless something dramatically shifts or a black swan event in the economy. I think it’s going forward. I think it’s going to be fantastic I’m thankful for this year. I you know, I’m thankful that

You know, I had the confidence to switch marketing companies a year ago and get involved with somebody that I thought could keep me going. I think my switch is part of what has helped me not to decline this year when I know that some of the guys around me are off, have laid off a few people. The bigger houses, especially the 20 member crews, are down a little bit. The reps are telling me this.

You know, I’m pretty thankful where we are. I attribute a lot of that to, you know, to Winnitreatment Marketing Pros. And I’m pretty optimistic for 25.

Will Hanke (18:20)
Thank you for all the kind words. appreciate that. That’s really nice. Josh, what do you think over the last year?

Josh Tycksen (18:26)
Yeah, very similar. mean, 13 days left in the month, 14 if you count the 31st or Christmas, but we were on a blitz last year. Alta, custom brands group offers, they have their little sales benchmark you got to get to for their Blue Diamond Elite Club, the top of the top. And I was like $65,000 away in cost of good sales. And I just said, you know what? I think I could do it. I normally would invest maybe $3,000 a month in ad spend.

And we probably did 9, 9,400 that month instead, because I just said, I’m taking every single freaking thing I can get. I was almost giving stuff away so I could hit that benchmark because I saw it didn’t cost me as much. I’d get a $25,000 credit from CVG. I’d win an extra trip for my installer and his wife. You know, there were other benefits to it on top of the fact of just staying busy in a month that’s slow. So it was kind of annoying and it was during Christmas to get a lot that many calls and whatnot, but

Coming year over year and comparing them, we’re probably very similar to what Vince said where we’re going to finish around somewhere between five to 7 % higher in sales than we did a year ago. So we’ve already passed it. We’re five to 7 % ahead of it today. So I don’t have my everything floored right now in marketing where I’m adding onto it. the next two weeks, like I did a year ago either.

And our profit percentage is almost the same. It’s less than a tenth of a percent of different for gross profit on those deals and stuff. So it’s been a lot more consistent year. It’s been a lot easier this year than it was a year ago. Those first few years making a lot of adjustments and getting used to the way things flow. I would also go ahead and give you mad props. The window treatment marketing process has been a huge benefit to us in that area. There’s the struggles as a new business owner to feeling that

Spend where my first two years didn’t spend a dime. I bought four hundred four thousand postcards From like vista print and I would just go put them up in the new build neighborhoods If I wasn’t working around appointments I’d be putting them up and getting those out and plastering houses with those postcards and that was a great return For what I’d spend is the whole all those postcards cost me 400 bucks. I still have some That was the only money I spent and then somebody convinced me that I should work with you guys and have you do my website two years ago

Will Hanke (20:44)
you

Josh Tycksen (20:51)
And I was like, I don’t know, was like a thousand bucks or 1500 a month or something. I just could not stomach that. But I was like, I’ll give it a shot. Three to six months, you know, cause you guys told me you can’t, you cannot make your decision here in the first 90 days. You’ve got to wait 90 days, if not at least six months. said, okay, it kept getting better. So then I was like, great, what if we put money into it? It kept getting better. And then it’s just figuring out how to even that out and realizing that if I track my numbers, there’s trends, whether I pay for marketing or not.

There’s trends of when it goes up and when it goes down. There’s holidays and school starting and stopping. There’s elections and all these other weird things. So yeah, like he said, black swan events and stuff, something totally out of the ordinary could dramatically impact how 2025 goes. But I think I’m getting a little bit more business mature in being able to handle the ups and downs and just telling my people, don’t worry about it. You’re still paid this week. Just go get some projects done at home. it’s, but when I call you, I’m going to need you.

because it’s going to get crazy, you know, coming up in the next few weeks or based on the last four years, April’s going to be freaking nuts, you know, so.

I remember what the question was anymore.

Will Hanke (21:59)
That was really the biggest valuable lesson that you got this year.

Josh Tycksen (22:04)
yeah, just having those numbers, having a history to track off of has really helped me to relax and sleep a little better and be a lot more cool. Or you’ll see my emails coming in far less than they used to with how much I was freaking out about everything and every dollar spent and realizing that some things take time to kind of see how they’re going to work. And there will be some dips and some peaks, but there’s not one answer for everything.

Will Hanke (22:32)
Yeah,

yeah. Thank you again for the kind comments. So outside of marketing decision that you made, what was the other best decision you made over the course of the last year that really helped your business grow? Josh?

Josh Tycksen (22:50)
Opening up our portfolio. We would maybe do one patio shade a month. I wouldn’t focus on it. I put marketing money into it this year and that’s really helped us even out. Even if it’s just keeping my people busy because those installs are very labor heavy. It takes two people, two hours if everything goes perfect to put one of those up.

That’s one shade, you know, for four or 5,000 bucks, if you’re running around a 50 % margin. And it’s just really labor heavy compared to like, if I send my guy yesterday, he was on a $12,000 job to put up 33 rollers and did it in four hours. know, but bringing that on and diversifying and adding that gave us a whole market we already had where we could reach out to all of our customers.

And we just did it personally instead of with email campaign campaigns. I just kind of went through and I could already check people off the list who I didn’t have that in their backyard or their space. They didn’t have room for it. Or I could just tell us like, that’s a long shot, you know, but adding that having another thing that we could call them and sell when we’ve already built a good rapport with them. That was a good one for us this year. Our repeat customers this year, and this is our fourth year in business, but our repeat customers this year was a

big percentage. wasn’t like 2%, 5%. It was like 16 % of our customers this year are repeats. That was insane. And I’m trying to figure a lot of them, it was into new homes, but a lot of them, was adding more, you know? And then, I don’t know, it’s not really repeat, but referrals still from those same loyal customers has been a good percentage of that base too.

Will Hanke (24:30)
Yeah.

Yeah, it’s interesting you mentioned the exterior stuff. I’ve said this on some other videos. I think two years ago, we might have had 5 % of our clients that offered exterior, 5 % of our window treatment clients that offered exterior. And now that’s probably 32, 33 % of our clients are offering exterior. Vince, are you guys doing any exterior stuff or thinking about it?

Vince Sturkie (24:55)
we are thinking about it we you know i refer that out i got a big company a twenty member team right next door to me almost i’m friends with the owner i send him all the bahama shutters i send him all the exterior track system type shades for porches and stuff they do all that stuff and they’re good at it they’re pretty they’re very pricey so i have to warn the customers that you’re you’re they’re not friendly vince with the money they’re gonna you’re gonna see tickets like you’ve never seen before when they get there but

you know, I have to kind of preset it, but, I refer that out now. We’re going to add some product next year. We’re just not sure exactly which one to grab hold to and learn. you know, but we do, we do believe we can grow with product adding product next year that we’re not doing now. I think the biggest thing this past year though, will that’s helped us is I decided at the first of the year to own Google to post open every Saturday from nine to 12, not all day.

because what I did in a quick Google search is realized in my market nobody is open on Saturday. And so I would come down to the office, I was already coming to the office, hanging around the warehouse, cleaning my truck, doing something anyway. So what I’m doing is I’m spending a few hours at the office on Saturday mornings. I’m catching leads by people who go on Google and they say, hey, we need to schedule an appointment to get some shutters for our new home.

They’re only off on Saturday. They take care of those types of things on Saturday. Being open on Saturday has been a competitive advantage that I think probably all total has gotten me 50 or 60 new leads this past year that, you know, I believe at a 70, 80 % close ratio on an in-home appointment, think it really made a big difference for us. And then the second thing that helped me this year is the Norman rep.

told me if I’m standing in front of a sliding glass door to pitch the Smart Drape over something lesser expensive, like a vertical. And I started pitching that thing and nobody knows what it is. They’ve never seen it. Norman’s the most invisible company out there. And I started pitching the Smart Drape, sold one yesterday. It’s a product that if anybody’s ever bought a Luminette, you can triple margin that product. You can

You can get good money on that type of product. So there’s little things like that that I just stay disciplined to do that I’ve seen. You know, I’m probably the worst up seller in the world. I’m a down seller probably more than an up seller. It’s just the way I’m built. But people resonate toward my crazy nature of sales where I try to talk people into spending less because it’s better. It’s just not my style to upsell. So I try to stay middle of the road.

Will Hanke (27:32)
You

Vince Sturkie (27:50)
Those are the little things I did this year that I think made a difference.

Will Hanke (27:54)
That’s really interesting. The three or four hours on a Saturday has really profited you, I guess, at the end of the day just by doing something you were all kind of already doing anyway.

Vince Sturkie (28:03)
Yeah, I was gonna be here either way.

Will Hanke (28:05)
Yeah, I love that. That’s fantastic. So thank you guys for sharing that. I wanted to talk real quick about regional differences. So Vince, you’re in the Carolinas and you did mention earlier that you’re doing some specific products. Is there anything that you see more than you have in the past or things that are surprisingly similar to other parts of the country?

Vince Sturkie (28:32)
For us here, most of these new builds that we’re working on, which is big percentage of our business, those buyers are not local buyers. Most of those are coming from somewhere else because Greenville’s in the top 25 places to move to according to the National Association of Realtors. And those people that are coming are coming for the warmer temperatures and lower cost of living. A lot of them have white hair. They’re more like me than they are like Josh. And you know…

They’re coming and they’re wanting things that they bought in the past which are plantation shutters. That’s a biggie for an older mature seasoned buyer. He’s probably had shutters before. He’s gonna wanna buy those. We’re seeing more requests for folks in the shutters than we do having folks call for shades. Now if we get somebody moving up out of Florida, moving halfway back to the northeast,

They might be talking shades, but a lot of them are also going to be talking shutters because they’re coming out of a heavy shutter market in South Florida. you know, shutters have been big for us this year. Probably more growth in shutters than anything. Shades, I thought, would be our biggest, you know, it just seems like shutters seems to still be ruling, you know, unless we can just turn them. I don’t like taking away.

If somebody calls for shutters, I want to stay on the course and give them what they called for. Because sometimes you can try to do a takeaway for an easier install and quicker turnaround on that client. But at the end of the day, I like to leave people with where their heart sits. And if they say shutters, it’s the greatest product I’ve ever sold, so I say love it.

Will Hanke (30:12)
Right. Yeah, totally makes sense. Josh, I know you’re in Arizona in a pretty hot part of the country. Is there anything that’s on fire in your area?

Josh Tycksen (30:23)
There’s some seasonal trends I’ve noticed. Solar screens, there are these outside products, they’re not a high profit margin thing for us, but I found a company who goes out, measures them, builds them, brings them out and installs them. And so I can just sell, I mean, I’ve almost got my assistant completely taking over that division because she can do quotes and everything with just pictures and not have to go to their house at all. And so she feels incentivized.

Again, adding new products. Norman has the Smart Drape, like he said, and you know, when they flew us up there to VIP and, you know, treat us all special and takes over, you know, will the simple with Norman takes you over to their little shop there. That’s not like a, it feels like a storefront, but it’s actually for them to bring in reps and really train you on their products. And when they did that and showed us the, you know, the, the Smart Drape, that’s been a good ad for us. it’s not cranking yet in terms of, just.

where we go to for covering our sliding doors and stuff yet, but it’s another option that we get to provide now instead of just roller shades or honeycomb and nobody really likes to do vertical blinds. Same with Norman has this special blackout where they have sidetracks and it’s called 360 blackout. And that is insane. Where we’ll get calls to black out a master bedroom or a baby’s bedroom or just different places in a home.

You know, we just say add X to any window if you want complete blackout. And sometimes people go nuts for that. So it’s, kind of a differentiator that you can have where other people say blackout. So when people say, Hey, we need blackout. And I have to stop them. Hey, hold on. What do you mean blackout? Cause there’s room darkening is kind of the industry term that’s being referred to now where there’s blackout where you’re thinking there’s no light in the room. What are you asking about? And sometimes, no, we’re good. Just a darker room. And some people know I can’t have any light.

Will Hanke (32:03)
You

Josh Tycksen (32:18)
where it’s good that you clarified or they might have thought that a regular blackout shade would actually black out their room.

Will Hanke (32:25)
Interesting. So speaking of regional different things. I wanted to ask you guys about your local networks I think somebody mentioned realtors earlier on. How are you guys building out those local referral networks? Josh will go to you

Josh Tycksen (32:41)
I’m a member of BNI, Business Networking International. I just got back from that meeting. It’s every Tuesday morning at eight o’clock for a couple hours. There’s 50 other people in there that are specific to their own trades that they do. so I have 50 other people out there who are committed to, you know, making sure I get referred if they know anybody else looking for window treatments. You know, and we’re all in that ballpark for each other, you know, that I’ve got, I know somebody who does this or does that. And so I’ve got

a referral list as well that I modified my quote where when they, I print it out, I’ll show up at a home, I’ll do my stuff. And then I just say, if I have 10 or 15 minutes, I can print this for you right now. And they always say, great, that’d be awesome. So I just do it real quick on the computer. And when I print it, it flips the page over now on the backside says, what else are you looking for? Here’s some trusted people we’ve worked with that do flooring, roofing, landscaping, other home services trades. And it was mostly a benefit to them.

when we started doing that, it’s circled around now we’ve been doing it long enough where they’re always pushing for us now because, you know, if we have 45 leads or 35 closed deals in a month, that I would bet 20 to 25 % of them are flipping that over and calling some of those people.

Will Hanke (33:58)
That’s great. I think anytime you can be a resource for people, you still look good in their eyes, even if you just referred them to somebody that can do it better. You still got a little check mark in their mind, right? So that’s always helpful. Vince, how about you?

Vince Sturkie (34:10)
Mm-hmm.

know B &I is great. I actually founded a B &I years ago when I was in mortgage banking. I have preached B &I for years. There’s five chapters in my town. There’s no window treatment slots available or I’d be in one. They stay pretty booked up with a window treatment consultant in them. So it’s kind of got me out of it for the moment. But I will wind up back in a B &I when my turn comes up. For me,

I use networking, if I’m in a neighborhood and there’s a model home at the entrance, I’m not leaving turning out of that neighborhood without stopping and walking in and telling that attendant of that model home, hey, I’m working in a house in here. If anyone buying a hall mask, we’d love to help them with their window treatments. I just try to use the boots on the ground stuff that’s easy, hitting those model homes, hitting those real estate agents when they meet you at the house to unlock the door to let you in to measure.

for the out of town client, know, try to use that as a chance to introduce myself in what we do. And it is making a difference. Well, I get referrals from builders and realtors I’ve never even heard of. These people need to refer people and they’ll refer people they don’t even know if they don’t know someone and they’re asked for a referral. I’ve done it. So, you know,

Will Hanke (35:27)
You

Vince Sturkie (35:40)
It definitely makes a difference to get your card in front of those people and try to keep it there because they will refer people. They need to because people don’t know people.

Will Hanke (35:51)
Yeah, referral traffic obviously always a little bit warmer as well, right? A little easier to close. So that definitely helps having those relationships and building those relationships as time goes on.

Vince Sturkie (36:03)
right.

Will Hanke (36:05)
So I wanted to ask quick about technology. So I know that technology is always changing from the smart home side, the motorization side, but even from just the running a business side. So how are you guys leveraging different digital tools in your networking and in your client relationships?

Josh Tycksen (36:25)
Vince, you’re probably going to take the cake on this. I used to run restaurants. had several restaurants I was in charge of down here in Arizona. That’s why I moved here. And I got so sick of every employee that was under me. All their problems started to become my problems that I got really sick of big, big crews and big staffs and lots of people. So when I switched to this, I was myself and I loved it for so long because I had total control of my schedule. And then it got, you know,

naturally got kind of worn out. I brought on some help to at least do the installs. And I’ve gone through where I’ve brought on a little more, where I’ve trimmed down to a little bit less, but you sound like you’ve got a full on store and several people and a couple of different trucks doing installs and know, three, four different people doing your sales where I systems are a hundred percent mandatory for you to function right without all those hiccups. You know, I’m still very caveman on a lot of that stuff. Cause I find is I’ve

This is where I need the most work. There’s so much opportunity for me here, but I get annoyed with the delay. Most of those systems, if I bring in some sort of a ordering portal system that maybe makes it simpler to work between all of my team and the customer and the payment systems and whatever in the schedule, it adds two weeks onto our install time, it seems like, because those orders just take forever to submit or whatever. I haven’t found solutions that I’ve been patient with.

never get it that i think too much into productive word sometimes get that done on sitting here

Vince Sturkie (37:55)
Well, I get it because you can probably do more with your cell phone than I can with a $50,000 processor sitting in front of me. I am a little more old school. So the technology that people are able to, things they can do on their phones, I can’t even do them. But the one thing that has helped me is we have our quoting software, so that gets us into the digital agent quoting.

We have Blanco and we have Will with Lead Boomerang, is really, to me, I know that we’re capturing more leads because of Lead Boomerang than we were when we were simply answering the phone or getting a web form submitted, which was what we were before the days of Winda Treatment Marketing Pro. So I think technology-wise there, I think those things have been huge for us.

Josh Tycksen (38:25)
Which software do you guys use? OK.

Vince Sturkie (38:55)
I have a lot of room to grow in this. I don’t trust things. I mean, I test my phone number almost daily. I go online and I pull the numbers we’re using for tracking. I’m calling them because I’m scared they’re not working, especially on the days I don’t get any calls. I’m like, okay, what’s wrong with the phone number? And sometimes, believe it not, I found the numbers not working because something’s unplugged.

But at the end of the day, I would say, I confess, I probably have a very weak link in technology, in what I could be doing versus what I am doing. I’m always, I mean, I talk to people who call here wanting to sell us things to help us, just because I’m hopeful they might have a good idea that I need. When all they really want to do is take window treatment marketing pros away and start doing it for me. I’m like, no.

Will will tell you, it takes me years to trust somebody. I talked to Will Hank you five years ago and it took me four to get on board. So I roll a little too slow some days.

Will Hanke (39:55)
you

Yeah.

Josh Tycksen (40:03)
I mean, there’s still, yeah, so it sounds like we’re feeling the same there. I’ve worked with my blind co, they’re just, I don’t remember what it was that frustrated me. And I think it was just the delays if you submit through the portal and waiting. And I tell my customers 95 % of our orders this year, this is an accurate number, 95 % of our orders this year have been installed in 30 days or less. We’re averaging 23 days right now from sale to install. And that’s really a powerful tool or a really powerful sales, you know.

point to make that people appreciate when they’re moving into a new home and they’re want you installing the day after they close or they just moved in and now they’re feeling vulnerable or whatever. But even if it’s as simple as just having very organized photos on your phones, you can flip open and go to whatever type of product they’re looking for to be able to show them an example real quick. This is a stupid example. I use it often, but in the iPhone, they have a thing called predictive text. I think if you go to general and then keyboard,

They have these text replacement phrases. I have thousands where if I type, you know, there’s a built-in one, it’s OMW becomes on my way. Well, I’ve built it in now where I have videos. If you want to know about an automated shade, I can go AR1, AR2, AR3, whatever I type in pulls up a different YouTube link and sends it to them so they can see a video demo of that. And so when somebody says, what’s, we don’t really know what’s trending in homes right now. We’re kind of open to it. I have one trend one and it sends them a video of

what we’re seeing lately, you know, and then there’s, I mean, I don’t even know how to go off on that, that I have thousands of those terms in my phone and I’m used to it where GM becomes good morning or I have, you know, I mean, a whole, the things you type over and over, you get sick of typing to people, your address, your email, your whatever, all of them are three digit short codes for me that somehow I have memorized and I just, I don’t want to type that anymore. As soon as I ever feel that I don’t want to type that anymore. I go in and type it up in there.

Will Hanke (41:40)
That’s fantastic.

Josh Tycksen (42:02)
And that way I can just remember whatever three letters it was to send out to somebody. And that’s really sped up communication and simplified things for them. Cause then they get a video that explains all the things they’re probably going to start asking me. know, so there’s, there are advantages to a lot of the technology that we use. This is a perfect example. You’re doing a podcast. If other people are tuned in and watching, they could be finding solutions as we chat, you know, so there’s

Vince Sturkie (42:15)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Will Hanke (42:28)
I love

that. I love the shortcut.

Josh Tycksen (42:29)
I’m not very good with

the systems part, bringing all those systems in to help me, but yeah, that’s a little technology thing I like to use that I think helps.

Will Hanke (42:33)
Yeah.

That’s awesome. Well, I thank you guys for being on. As we kind of switch, I do want to continue to talk a little bit about technology, but I want to get into 2025. What are some of the emerging technologies that you guys are starting to come across or that you’ve seen and you can’t wait to kind of get your hands on? Vince?

Vince Sturkie (42:57)
gee, I don’t know of anything. mean, maybe I’m out of touch. But I think that one of the things I’m not using that I know exist is being able to put the customer’s windows on my iPad and then dress their windows within the software that the vendors are providing us. Dress their windows with a specific treatment so they can see that roller shade in their window in their home.

That exists with a couple of people that we’re dealing with. I’m not currently using that, but I’m hearing good feedback that a customer actually told me they showed me a picture of my window with the treatment in it. And I’m like, wow, I’d heard about this from Graber. And they showed me how the app worked, where we could do it. I just have not embraced that technology yet. I see where that could be a big plus.

Especially when you’re standing in front of that customer and most of them aren’t like this, but they’re looking all off into space, they’re lost as a goose, they don’t know what to do, and you’re trying to reel them down to a decision on what direction to go with the product. And they’re just not, you’re talking roller shades, honeycomb, sheer shades, you’re talking about a lot of different things, they don’t know what’s going on, you gotta get it in front of them, they gotta be able to see it.

I’ve got it all loaded on my iPad as far as the products, but I think the show and tell or show and sale really works in our business. I had a lady jump out of her skin yesterday on the Smart Drape and I just flipped my iPad around, showed her what it looked like, the video that Norman puts out. She was ready to pick the fabric. before she saw the product, she didn’t have any idea what it cost. So I think…

That technology is the piece that I would definitely want to try to add in next year. You know, now that this, you know, that’s something I believe will help us.

Will Hanke (44:57)
Yeah, yeah, I would say from a marketing website standpoint, our clients always have high traffic on their gallery related pages. On any of the pages that have pictures and videos, people just want to kind of envision what their home could potentially look like. So it makes total sense that that tool where you can actually take a picture of theirs and show it to them, that’s pretty amazing. That’s awesome. Josh, what are you looking forward to in 2025?

Vince Sturkie (45:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Josh Tycksen (45:27)
Yeah, I mean, I’ve heard kind of what he’s talking about over there. I don’t have a lot of that. You know, I mostly sell from two brands right now. I mean, I’ve got, there’s more than that, but it feels like the more brands I open up to, harder it becomes to teach this to other people. You know, just, so I don’t know. I do want to offer anyway, that’s, that’s drifting, but, I like how you said show and sale. I think that’s a really good example. We get people off and they go, okay, cool. That video you just showed me. Do you have that with this fabric? Like, no.

It’s hard enough to organize an automated version of that product, let alone with this valance and that color. You know, there’s a competitor out here, another vendor we compete against or share the value with, and they have a thing where on their website you can build your shutter. That seems simple enough to me, just color, size of louvers, frame and control. But it seems like it’s an impossible thing to get, you know, that they seem to be the only one I know that can do that. Nobody cares to even

venture to figure out how to help me get that widget that somebody could just click on and click on this option, this option, and this option to see the color, the frame style, the size of the louvers, and whether it’s got a tilt rod or not, what it looks like. People see that and they go, yes, that’s what I my shirt to look like. And they could be convinced at that point. And that’s enough. As long as you show up and you don’t offend them or they’re not blown out by the price, they’re going to close. know, that kind of technology I think will continue to develop and be easier.

and more integrated into our processes. I’m excited to see who figures out making things easier for us in that realm. I’ve just started, somebody convinced me, I felt like an old fool to start using ChatGPT and I’ve got it now as like one of the key apps. Like all my apps are in folders. Every app on my phone is on one page except for ChatGPT by itself on the next page with my Bitcoin widget. But ChatGPT now has become something on the daily where

Will Hanke (47:15)
You

Josh Tycksen (47:24)
I’m stopping myself from responding to people and a customer might ask me a question or somebody sent me a text this morning and said, I got my other quote, they’re about $1,200 less than you. I really liked all your stuff, but I’m having a hard time deciding why I should work with you instead of them. And I asked chat GP, I put that text into chat GPT and asked them for a response and I sent it to them and they’re like, you’re right. Okay, let’s go. And I thought that was amazing.

You know, I go to BNI now and I don’t even write my own commercial anymore. say, write me a 15 second limerick that’s funny, that has to do with Christmas and my business. And it knows my stuff and it wrote a limerick, you know, about, I don’t know what it was, but everyone loved it. I got best commercial today. You know, it’s so silly, you know? So yeah, there’s stuff out there that like he says, you know, he’s excited about people calling him, offering him things to help with.

Will Hanke (47:59)
you

You

That’s awesome.

Josh Tycksen (48:20)
I dodge those calls quite a bit, but I do actively look for things I’m looking for. And I think that we need to not be closed off to that because some things are going to simplify and free up our time, which the older we get, we realize more and more is our most valuable asset. Now I’m excited to see what kind of stuff pops out here too and start implementing more of this, figure out how I can implement some of that artificial intelligence because I just, I’m like,

I’m asking it now how to respond to my wife when she sends me a text. And I’m like, it sounds so stupid. And it’s immediate. And I’m like, all right, I almost have a paid for subscription. Not yet. I’m sure I’ll be there.

Will Hanke (48:50)
Ha ha ha!

Vince Sturkie (48:51)
yeah.

Will Hanke (48:54)
That’s awesome.

Great.

I love it. That’s fantastic. ChatGPT is great. AI in general, I think, is going to dominate this year. We’re actually testing some AI booking bots right now for some clients and things like that that want to save time on just taking those initial calls. some of

Josh Tycksen (49:19)
Well, see, and I’ve tried

that with a call service and they tell us and I tried it, but then I would listen to those calls and these guys were getting so frustrated. That was like, I’m losing these appointments because this person can’t just answer that. You know, I just said, simplify, just set the appointment. But then it was a bunch of appointments with stuff. It’s like, okay, we didn’t need an appointment for that. You know, and screening it kind of still had to go through. But I think that will develop and be faster. But you could hear on the calls, they’d be waiting.

And then getting a response and I was like, that was too long for me. I can’t handle that. I’d be going crazy if I was a customer. I would not feel important. I would feel thrown into a system. So I don’t know. There’s a balance that I think will eventually even out to be to our advantage, but a lot of it I haven’t seen there yet. Doesn’t mean somebody else doesn’t figure it out. I guarantee there’s not only one person out there trying to figure out this answering service for us that will work for a window treatment industry, but.

Will Hanke (49:58)
Yeah.

Yeah, I would agree. think the timing.

Josh Tycksen (50:18)
All the people I’m seeing it do that referred me to it from HVAC, doesn’t seem to cut it yet.

Will Hanke (50:25)
Yeah, I definitely think AI is gonna be a big part of the coming year. All right, one more thing, as we close out, I really appreciate all you guys taking the time really to share everything about your business and some things for 2025. Josh, if there was one thing that you could tell another window treatment business, specifically about 2025, what would you say to them? What would you recommend that be their approach?

Josh Tycksen (50:56)
I I would assume the more I go to networking meetings and coaching and the more I subscribe to that as I get older, realizing that there’s a network of people there with answers to the same questions I have just in a different industry. I wouldn’t be afraid to invest in yourself or your business. would, you know, that was what slowed me down. I mean, I was learning. So it was good that I didn’t do too much that first year. would have bitten off more than I could have chewed and I would have done bad jobs. But

you know, establish your values and stick to them and make guide your decisions with those. You know, we’ll go over our core values as a business each day, whether it’s me and two people or me and seven people, where we go through those so that people don’t, they stop calling me or texting me on how to solve a problem. And I say, cause my answer comes back, I’ll respond with one of those core values. I’m looking at them right now, or I’ll just send them the list and say, how do you apply this? And later we might talk about it. So I can say, cool. That was a good solution.

We probably could have been more cost effective or more time effective in this regard. So you’ll learn if that ever happens again, this is how you’d apply that. But you stuck with our values. So they’re still going to love us and we’re still going to get five stars, right? And that kind of stuff. So I think having those values defined as a business, not where it’s like, here’s our core values and they’re printed somewhere and nobody could recite them, but like we read them every day. And that was a coaching aspect that we got that I from the coaching group that I was submitted to subscribed with. And that makes a big difference.

I really do believe in that.

Will Hanke (52:26)
I think I mentioned to you earlier, think hiring a business coach was one of the best things I could have ever done. Just having that other set of eyes, right? Helping you see your business from a different standpoint. thanks for sharing that. Vince, what about you? And what do you think would be a good thing to tell a window treatment company for the coming year?

Vince Sturkie (52:48)
Well I wouldn’t want to tell the guys down the street this a block away but nationally, first thing I would tell them is to fall in love with what you do if you don’t already love it. Because you need to walk into every home glad you’re there, loving that person, loving the opportunity to help them. If you don’t have that, you better get it. Because you’re gonna hate this business next year if you don’t. Because it’s hard…

Will Hanke (52:51)
You

Josh Tycksen (53:14)
I’m

Vince Sturkie (53:15)
Walking into a home is the hardest thing a person can do. They don’t know these people. You’ve got to develop a friendship. You’ve got to come across as an expert to them, be helpful. And if you don’t love what you do, you better fall in love with it. After that, you better find marketing people that you can trust because this business is not going to work without marketing. You better have a marketing guy behind you that you trust. It’s going to take care of you.

Josh Tycksen (53:35)
Bingo!

Vince Sturkie (53:45)
that you’re gonna invest your money with and then don’t be afraid to spend your money because I mean, customers get customers. If you have to pay to get customers, in a perfect world, they’d all be referrals, they’d already know who you are, they’d have a 95 % close rate, but we don’t live in a perfect world. We live in a transitory deal where we got people coming from all over, they don’t know who we are.

So we’ve got to find a way to reach them. We’re going to reach them through digital marketing. So I would say don’t be afraid to get out there in the digital marketing world. Take that risk to develop that relationship. know, Josh and I were texting a while back and you know, you know, we’re always frustrated with different things and different parts of our businesses. But the one thing is when you have somebody you trust, you wrap your arms around them and you go with them because that’s a difficult.

That’s a difficult thing to establish in marketing. Whether it be any type of marketing, but primarily being digital. So I’d say fall in love with what you do. Find a digital marketing company you trust. Grab a hold to them and then stay in the know on what you’re doing and don’t stop because this is a working business. This is not a sit at home and make money business. You’ve got to be in the truck, on the road, on the phone. You’ve got to be either talking to customers, talking to installers. You’ve got to be working.

So if you don’t want to work next year, get away from this. Because this is an earn your money business, but it’s a great business to be in if you’re willing to work.

Will Hanke (55:13)
you

That’s great. Vince, Josh, thank you. Thank you for the commercial. But thank you guys for your time and sharing your unique perspectives and experiences. I really do appreciate you guys taking the time to do this. If you enjoyed this episode of Marketing Pains, please consider subscribing. And we’ll have more episodes. We put one out every other Tuesday. And it’s always interviews, whether it’s other dealers or vendors, a lot of different people that we’re trying to.

get in front of you to give you more value. We appreciate your time. So please consider subscribing. Josh, Vince, one last time. Thank you guys so much for jumping on today. I appreciate it.

Vince Sturkie (55:59)
You bet, thanks Will.

Josh Tycksen (56:01)
My pleasure, thanks.

Will Hanke (56:03)
Thanks everyone, we’ll see you in the next episode.

Transcript

All right, hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers and business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today, we are doing our Q4 review slash Q1 outlook for 2025 and excited to have two of the best window treatment dealers.

in the US on today and that’s a little bit of a play on words here. So we’ve got Josh Tixon, owner of Best Blinds and Sexy Shudders. Josh has a background in professional ballroom dancing. Josh brings precision, artistry and attention to detail to every window treatment project, making Best Blinds and Shudders a trusted name in the Arizona home improvement. And then we’ve got Vince Sturkey, owner of Best Blinds and Shudders.

Vince Sturkey owns Best Blinds and Shudders with a commitment to quality and trust, providing custom blind shades and shutters to homes across upstate South Carolina and western North Carolina. Guys, thanks so much for being on today.

Vince Sturkie (01:13)
Thanks Will.

Will Hanke (01:15)
Really appreciate you guys jumping on. So we’re going to get into a little bit of the Q4 and Q1 outlook kind of stuff. first, I have a personal question for each of you. Josh, I’m very intrigued by your journey from professional ballroom dancing to window treatments. How has that background and precision and artistry influenced your approach to the business?

Josh Tycksen (01:40)
It’s interesting. I’ve never really thought about it that way. I just grew up doing it because it was a good hobby. It a good way to meet chicks. My mom said I had to be in either some form of dance or art or music and I liked movement and I like music. I’m a very energetic person. I look like I’m always on about 10 Dr. Peppers, but I don’t really drink a lot of caffeine actually. I just have a lot of natural energy, but the benefits coming from it though are I had to work with a lot of different people in a very intimate

Will Hanke (01:46)
you

Josh Tycksen (02:09)
setting, know, where like partnering with somebody, your hands are right on each other, on each other’s back or whatever, and you’re very close and these boundaries are very different. And in learning how to work with, you know, so many different partners and people in those settings, I think it set me up for a lot more success working with the different kinds of people that I encounter on a daily basis in our appointments. And I can read a lot of body language. I don’t even think about it. I just can see it and other people might.

not notice those same things, you know, yeah. And, know, and it just, yeah, a lot of attention to detail, cause that’s all you do. You practice some things and he says, Hey, that’s wrong. Do it again. Hey, that’s wrong. Do it again. It’s just the art of perfection. You’re just chasing over and over. And, the presentation at the end is something with the wow factor you’re really going for, where if you’re putting on a show or a performance that people want to be excited about it, and that’s what gets people come into your shows. And so I tend to have a same.

flair for our things where I like to show up at the end of installs if I’m not already part of it. And I like to get them so jacked about the products that we’re putting up by the time they’re done that they really do appreciate things that they might not otherwise know about them and kind of go through a little bit of care and, you know, just tutorial with them where we get them all excited. Cause then by the end they’re, you know, they’re like, wow, wow. I had no idea. And, I think that takes them over the top where we can then ask them for those reviews and stuff, you know, really kind of kind of.

rolls a cycle that just helps you grow and helps you stay busy.

Will Hanke (03:38)
Yeah,

that’s a great strategy. I love the energy. I think that’s big piece, especially showing up at the end of the install and kind of hyping them up, right? That’s super cool.

Very good.

Josh Tycksen (03:51)
Yeah,

I 100 % agree. Especially, mean, like our favorite thing to sell is automation because people want automation. A lot of people ask for it not having any idea what it costs. And they just are thinking about the wow factor part of it. So if you can get them over the price and have something that you know they can count on and love and then really go through and set it up for them, they get really excited about it. So it’s fun.

Will Hanke (04:13)
Yeah.

Very cool. So Vince, question for you too. We were talking before we started today about Josh’s business being called Sexy Shudders. And your comment was around the North Carolina, South Carolina area being a little more conservative. How does that play into your sales approach?

Vince Sturkie (04:34)
well you definitely got to you know check the room when you walk in every home here because you you know you could you know you don’t know so many people that are here came from somewhere else so you know when we’re here you know we we’re you know we’re country a lot of us are country boys from south carolina you know it’s more rural than it is urban and suburban here but you know we we’re we’re you know we walk in we see things you know you’re like okay what do i what hat do i need to wear today

when i’m dealing with these folks but you know people move here for a reason and you know generally they have something in common with the people that are already here and they want to be here with us and so we just kinda just it’s just business as usual really for every single home you know we just went through the election that was kind of political you know you had to you know be a little bit more balanced and careful because you never know what home you’re in

But at the end of the day, people are people. And they want to be helped with what they need. And they want you to treat them the way they want to be treated. And if you got all those bases covered, none of that’s going to matter. But it’s made for South Carolina to be a great place to do business right now.

Will Hanke (05:46)
Nice. Yeah. Like Josh said, you kind of got to read the room, right? And see what’s going on when you walk in.

Vince Sturkie (05:54)
Yes, absolutely. My installers can’t wear their Trump 24 hats on the job, right? I’m just like, keep it in the truck. But you know, we got a couple of different people here, so they’re all wearing different hats. But I just try to tell them that we’re here to love everybody, serve everybody, and everybody’s getting the same treatment with us.

Will Hanke (06:16)
Yeah, yeah, that’s great. Thank you. So let’s jump in and talk about Q4, how it’s been. And I think the big thing here is what is the biggest surprising shift that you guys have seen in customer preferences for window treatments?

Josh Tycksen (06:35)
Benz, you want to go first, you’re welcome to.

Vince Sturkie (06:36)
Yeah,

I think for us here in South Carolina, Will, you know, we’re also getting a lot more requests for motorization than we’ve ever gotten. So we’re hearing motorization more so. Because we have a lot of people here in the South that move from the North, you’ve got a lot of people still asking for Honeycomb Shades, which was real big in the Northeast. You know, whereas in the South, we didn’t do a lot of that product. So as people are migrating to us,

we’re seeing a shift toward more honeycombs than ever. Whereas back in 01 when I started, honeycombs were real big, now it’s roller shades, right? So, you know, we’re still seeing people come in asking for roller shades. I think the biggest shift now today in our industry from when I first got in it in 01 is the money flow. We’re having…

Back then the average ticket was less than two grand. Now we’re having people spend ten, fifteen thousand dollars like it’s two thousand dollars. And this is cash money, this isn’t borrowed money. So we’re seeing a shift toward higher tickets, we’re seeing a shift toward nicer products, and we’re seeing a shift in people being more easily letting go of the money. Which is really helpful in our business, especially when the margins start tightening.

Will Hanke (08:03)
Right. Yeah, Josh. I saw you nodding your head around the the motorization stuff. I know you actually mentioned The automation piece a little earlier. Is that the same thing you’re seeing?

Josh Tycksen (08:15)
Yeah, I mean, I’m trying to always open up our portfolio of what we’ll offer so that we’re current with the latest trends and what people are looking for. Our target market, like defining that really helped a lot. You know, after I got some business coaching a few years back, I want people in a new home. I want it to be their second or their third home. I’m not looking for a 25 to 30 year old in their first home where they could barely afford it. And they’re scraping by on what they can’t afford and instead getting somebody who’s 40 or older and they’ve got a, you

$750,000 home or more. And they’ve had an experience like this before. either put up their own window treatments or had a bad experience with somebody else, you know, or they may, once in a while, they may have not still put those in. But most of the time when that’s our target market, it’s a lot easier to, you know, work with people in what, I mean, price matters. I just don’t think it’s the most important thing. And that’s really hard when you’re going into quotes to get people off of that area and to really make sure that you can present the value.

and how the experience is going to go when they work with you, how your timeline is going to be kept, you know, and what they can expect from start to finish and after finish if there’s any problems going through those details, you know, as far as coming back to your question, being more specific to Q4, it’s so helpful to look at previous years to have that information, to see how many quotes we had from September into October into November into December, how many leads came in in those times, what those things were for and

Even being able to compare it to an election year and see the dip right before the election and then nine closed deals the day after Trump was elected. You know, okay, we’re good. got money. Okay, we’re good. You know, and the phone went off the hook and we closed nine deals the next day. You know, similar to what he said to, know, our average ticket going up, keeping track of that. mean, there’s our market here has a lot of new builds and I just kind of have moved my family to be closer to those because

Will Hanke (09:57)
you

Josh Tycksen (10:14)
I see people in new builds, they’re going to get it anyway. It’s a lot harder to quote somebody who thinks they want something because they saw an advertisement and they already have blinds in their house. So it’s not really a need. In a need situation, it’s a lot easier to the deal and you can present options.

Yeah, Q4 isn’t always a weird one in December. Right after the 15th up until the 31st, it’s just kind of weird. So just, up through the first 10 days of January, 15 days of January at least, and our trends have stayed the exact same. So it really helps me to be a lot more comfortable. Because I know you’ve seen me freak out on the marketing side where I’m saying, where’s my money going? How much would be allocated here and there? What are you focusing on? Why are we getting calls for this? It helps you calm down a little bit.

Will Hanke (10:39)
Yeah.

Josh Tycksen (10:59)
if you can look at those trends and see that they’re almost the exact same, you know, there’s very little variance.

Will Hanke (11:02)
Right.

Yeah, yeah, you mentioned the new builds. What percentage of your business typically is that? And has that increased over last couple of years?

Josh Tycksen (11:14)
Since I turned my focus to that, big time. I’d say for interior window treatments, I’d say it’s 90%. But we get, now that we’ve started doing patio shades where people get the patio shades or awnings, that’s not fair to say that that’s all with new builds. In fact, the patio shade demographic on the new builds is way lower because those people are already strapped for cash. They already just spent $100,000, $150,000 on the backyard and they already bought all this other stuff.

Will Hanke (11:18)
Okay.

Josh Tycksen (11:43)
We have a series that we try to do with them where we connect to those guys a year later. They’ve moved in now, they’ve gone through a lot of that first year of living in a home and now they’re ready for phase two. Right around March, April, there’s a really good opportunity to capitalize on that when they’re getting their tax returns, to send out good information and follow up. You do it in an effort to offer your help and assistance. If they have any questions about the products they got, if they’re running into any issues, if they feel like they need any additional chargers for their shades.

You know, or if they want to get the home automation kit now since they chose not to, but then also offering, did you realize, you know, that maybe you’re short on other products? Did you want to cover some of those windows? didn’t. Do you need solar screens to block the sun out? Do you want patio shades to make an indoor outdoor room? So the new build percentage for interior treatment, that is very high percentage.

Will Hanke (12:34)
Yeah. Vince, are you guys seeing something similar in the Carolinas?

Vince Sturkie (12:38)
Absolutely. It’s huge. And having been through the mortgage crisis of 08 where people stopped building homes and stopped buying homes, I mean it’s strong enough business increase that you’d lose sleep over it if you thought about what happens if it stops because it would be noticeable. Yeah, we would miss that piece of the business because it’s like Josh said, they have to buy window treatments. They’re not going to live in a $7,000- $800,000 home.

with paper shades for long. So at the end of the day, they’re buyers. All they need to do is like you, like your stuff, like your price, and they’re ready to write you a check. So we count on that part of the business, and we count on you. That’s where our digital marketing guru comes in, because we count on you to help keep our name in front of those people. They’re the hardest group to find on the internet, because realtors are looking for new movers.

And so when you’re trying to compete with them for the new movers, you know, it gets a little dicey because there’s a lot of money being spent trying to get that person’s attention because everybody wants the guy buying or building the house.

Will Hanke (13:46)
Sure. Yeah.

Josh Tycksen (13:48)
I found a lot of the biggest success we have in that is the neighborhood Facebook groups. If you find a new neighborhood and there’s construction going up and you get a customer and you can get in, you can get them to not just give you a review, but post something on the neighborhood Facebook group. It is the biggest return on investment you’ll ever get. matter what you offer them, you get somebody, a troll, a little Facebook troll in their neighborhood group who wants to be social with everybody there to give you some good, some good cloud in there.

We’ve done whole streets of homes on both sides.

Vince Sturkie (14:18)
That’s exactly

right. We probably got 20 in one neighborhood and it’s all because one gal is on Facebook promoting us all the time and it just goes like one after the other at that point because nothing’s better than the neighbor deal.

Will Hanke (14:35)
Yeah, similar approach for Nextdoor. We rolled out Nextdoor ads three or four months ago now. Josh, I think you started doing some of that.

Josh Tycksen (14:44)
return on those is fantastic. Way better than get from Google, at least I think so. It’s kind of hard for me to see which is which, but I just wanted to change the focus of our next door ads because most of it was coming back with patio shades and those are very labor heavy install. So growth in a different direction to be preferred, but we’ll take it really good from next door too. think that’s a very untapped market.

Will Hanke (15:12)
It really is. So they just rolled out their new ad platform maybe three or four months ago. We started rolling ours out shortly after that, or the ability to do the ads on there. And 50 % of our clients have already called back and said, let’s do more budget there. So I definitely think it’s something worth paying attention to. like you guys say, it’s very similar to the Facebook groups for the individual subdivisions or parts of town, that kind of stuff.

So another question, you guys made it through 2024, congrats. This year has been a very high peak, low valley kind of thing. It seems like you’re either on fire, Josh nine leads in one day and then probably nothing for a week or so. You know, it’s really these ups and downs are crazy. Did you guys experience that same kind of thing? And if so, what was kind of one of the biggest lessons that you learned this year?

Vince Sturkie (16:13)
For me, know, Will, I switched over, you know, I came on board with you a year ago. You know, so my first quarter of the year was the transition quarter where, you know, you dip before you rip. And so we were in panic mode at the first part of the year. But then as time went on, it just got better and better and better and better. you know, my reps are coming in from Graber and Alta and Norman and Hunter. They’re saying we’re 20 % down.

Will Hanke (16:13)
Vince, let’s start with

Vince Sturkie (16:43)
You should be 20 % down. That’s kind of the industry across the board. We’re not closing out this year 20 % lower than last year. We’re going to be right on par to close out the same year with probably about 5 or 6 % more in profit off of the same gross sales. I think we’re actually, this is our best year since I got back at it five years ago. So it’s encouraging when you hear that sales are down and you’re not.

And you know that but that’s been the word on the street, but I think I Think all things all things pointed in the right direction I think 25s could be the best year that I’ve seen since I’ve back in it five years ago Unless something dramatically shifts or a black swan event in the economy. I think it’s going forward. I think it’s going to be fantastic I’m thankful for this year. I you know, I’m thankful that

You know, I had the confidence to switch marketing companies a year ago and get involved with somebody that I thought could keep me going. I think my switch is part of what has helped me not to decline this year when I know that some of the guys around me are off, have laid off a few people. The bigger houses, especially the 20 member crews, are down a little bit. The reps are telling me this.

You know, I’m pretty thankful where we are. I attribute a lot of that to, you know, to Winnitreatment Marketing Pros. And I’m pretty optimistic for 25.

Will Hanke (18:20)
Thank you for all the kind words. appreciate that. That’s really nice. Josh, what do you think over the last year?

Josh Tycksen (18:26)
Yeah, very similar. mean, 13 days left in the month, 14 if you count the 31st or Christmas, but we were on a blitz last year. Alta, custom brands group offers, they have their little sales benchmark you got to get to for their Blue Diamond Elite Club, the top of the top. And I was like $65,000 away in cost of good sales. And I just said, you know what? I think I could do it. I normally would invest maybe $3,000 a month in ad spend.

And we probably did 9, 9,400 that month instead, because I just said, I’m taking every single freaking thing I can get. I was almost giving stuff away so I could hit that benchmark because I saw it didn’t cost me as much. I’d get a $25,000 credit from CVG. I’d win an extra trip for my installer and his wife. You know, there were other benefits to it on top of the fact of just staying busy in a month that’s slow. So it was kind of annoying and it was during Christmas to get a lot that many calls and whatnot, but

Coming year over year and comparing them, we’re probably very similar to what Vince said where we’re going to finish around somewhere between five to 7 % higher in sales than we did a year ago. So we’ve already passed it. We’re five to 7 % ahead of it today. So I don’t have my everything floored right now in marketing where I’m adding onto it. the next two weeks, like I did a year ago either.

And our profit percentage is almost the same. It’s less than a tenth of a percent of different for gross profit on those deals and stuff. So it’s been a lot more consistent year. It’s been a lot easier this year than it was a year ago. Those first few years making a lot of adjustments and getting used to the way things flow. I would also go ahead and give you mad props. The window treatment marketing process has been a huge benefit to us in that area. There’s the struggles as a new business owner to feeling that

Spend where my first two years didn’t spend a dime. I bought four hundred four thousand postcards From like vista print and I would just go put them up in the new build neighborhoods If I wasn’t working around appointments I’d be putting them up and getting those out and plastering houses with those postcards and that was a great return For what I’d spend is the whole all those postcards cost me 400 bucks. I still have some That was the only money I spent and then somebody convinced me that I should work with you guys and have you do my website two years ago

Will Hanke (20:44)
you

Josh Tycksen (20:51)
And I was like, I don’t know, was like a thousand bucks or 1500 a month or something. I just could not stomach that. But I was like, I’ll give it a shot. Three to six months, you know, cause you guys told me you can’t, you cannot make your decision here in the first 90 days. You’ve got to wait 90 days, if not at least six months. said, okay, it kept getting better. So then I was like, great, what if we put money into it? It kept getting better. And then it’s just figuring out how to even that out and realizing that if I track my numbers, there’s trends, whether I pay for marketing or not.

There’s trends of when it goes up and when it goes down. There’s holidays and school starting and stopping. There’s elections and all these other weird things. So yeah, like he said, black swan events and stuff, something totally out of the ordinary could dramatically impact how 2025 goes. But I think I’m getting a little bit more business mature in being able to handle the ups and downs and just telling my people, don’t worry about it. You’re still paid this week. Just go get some projects done at home. it’s, but when I call you, I’m going to need you.

because it’s going to get crazy, you know, coming up in the next few weeks or based on the last four years, April’s going to be freaking nuts, you know, so.

I remember what the question was anymore.

Will Hanke (21:59)
That was really the biggest valuable lesson that you got this year.

Josh Tycksen (22:04)
yeah, just having those numbers, having a history to track off of has really helped me to relax and sleep a little better and be a lot more cool. Or you’ll see my emails coming in far less than they used to with how much I was freaking out about everything and every dollar spent and realizing that some things take time to kind of see how they’re going to work. And there will be some dips and some peaks, but there’s not one answer for everything.

Will Hanke (22:32)
Yeah,

yeah. Thank you again for the kind comments. So outside of marketing decision that you made, what was the other best decision you made over the course of the last year that really helped your business grow? Josh?

Josh Tycksen (22:50)
Opening up our portfolio. We would maybe do one patio shade a month. I wouldn’t focus on it. I put marketing money into it this year and that’s really helped us even out. Even if it’s just keeping my people busy because those installs are very labor heavy. It takes two people, two hours if everything goes perfect to put one of those up.

That’s one shade, you know, for four or 5,000 bucks, if you’re running around a 50 % margin. And it’s just really labor heavy compared to like, if I send my guy yesterday, he was on a $12,000 job to put up 33 rollers and did it in four hours. know, but bringing that on and diversifying and adding that gave us a whole market we already had where we could reach out to all of our customers.

And we just did it personally instead of with email campaign campaigns. I just kind of went through and I could already check people off the list who I didn’t have that in their backyard or their space. They didn’t have room for it. Or I could just tell us like, that’s a long shot, you know, but adding that having another thing that we could call them and sell when we’ve already built a good rapport with them. That was a good one for us this year. Our repeat customers this year, and this is our fourth year in business, but our repeat customers this year was a

big percentage. wasn’t like 2%, 5%. It was like 16 % of our customers this year are repeats. That was insane. And I’m trying to figure a lot of them, it was into new homes, but a lot of them, was adding more, you know? And then, I don’t know, it’s not really repeat, but referrals still from those same loyal customers has been a good percentage of that base too.

Will Hanke (24:30)
Yeah.

Yeah, it’s interesting you mentioned the exterior stuff. I’ve said this on some other videos. I think two years ago, we might have had 5 % of our clients that offered exterior, 5 % of our window treatment clients that offered exterior. And now that’s probably 32, 33 % of our clients are offering exterior. Vince, are you guys doing any exterior stuff or thinking about it?

Vince Sturkie (24:55)
we are thinking about it we you know i refer that out i got a big company a twenty member team right next door to me almost i’m friends with the owner i send him all the bahama shutters i send him all the exterior track system type shades for porches and stuff they do all that stuff and they’re good at it they’re pretty they’re very pricey so i have to warn the customers that you’re you’re they’re not friendly vince with the money they’re gonna you’re gonna see tickets like you’ve never seen before when they get there but

you know, I have to kind of preset it, but, I refer that out now. We’re going to add some product next year. We’re just not sure exactly which one to grab hold to and learn. you know, but we do, we do believe we can grow with product adding product next year that we’re not doing now. I think the biggest thing this past year though, will that’s helped us is I decided at the first of the year to own Google to post open every Saturday from nine to 12, not all day.

because what I did in a quick Google search is realized in my market nobody is open on Saturday. And so I would come down to the office, I was already coming to the office, hanging around the warehouse, cleaning my truck, doing something anyway. So what I’m doing is I’m spending a few hours at the office on Saturday mornings. I’m catching leads by people who go on Google and they say, hey, we need to schedule an appointment to get some shutters for our new home.

They’re only off on Saturday. They take care of those types of things on Saturday. Being open on Saturday has been a competitive advantage that I think probably all total has gotten me 50 or 60 new leads this past year that, you know, I believe at a 70, 80 % close ratio on an in-home appointment, think it really made a big difference for us. And then the second thing that helped me this year is the Norman rep.

told me if I’m standing in front of a sliding glass door to pitch the Smart Drape over something lesser expensive, like a vertical. And I started pitching that thing and nobody knows what it is. They’ve never seen it. Norman’s the most invisible company out there. And I started pitching the Smart Drape, sold one yesterday. It’s a product that if anybody’s ever bought a Luminette, you can triple margin that product. You can

You can get good money on that type of product. So there’s little things like that that I just stay disciplined to do that I’ve seen. You know, I’m probably the worst up seller in the world. I’m a down seller probably more than an up seller. It’s just the way I’m built. But people resonate toward my crazy nature of sales where I try to talk people into spending less because it’s better. It’s just not my style to upsell. So I try to stay middle of the road.

Will Hanke (27:32)
You

Vince Sturkie (27:50)
Those are the little things I did this year that I think made a difference.

Will Hanke (27:54)
That’s really interesting. The three or four hours on a Saturday has really profited you, I guess, at the end of the day just by doing something you were all kind of already doing anyway.

Vince Sturkie (28:03)
Yeah, I was gonna be here either way.

Will Hanke (28:05)
Yeah, I love that. That’s fantastic. So thank you guys for sharing that. I wanted to talk real quick about regional differences. So Vince, you’re in the Carolinas and you did mention earlier that you’re doing some specific products. Is there anything that you see more than you have in the past or things that are surprisingly similar to other parts of the country?

Vince Sturkie (28:32)
For us here, most of these new builds that we’re working on, which is big percentage of our business, those buyers are not local buyers. Most of those are coming from somewhere else because Greenville’s in the top 25 places to move to according to the National Association of Realtors. And those people that are coming are coming for the warmer temperatures and lower cost of living. A lot of them have white hair. They’re more like me than they are like Josh. And you know…

They’re coming and they’re wanting things that they bought in the past which are plantation shutters. That’s a biggie for an older mature seasoned buyer. He’s probably had shutters before. He’s gonna wanna buy those. We’re seeing more requests for folks in the shutters than we do having folks call for shades. Now if we get somebody moving up out of Florida, moving halfway back to the northeast,

They might be talking shades, but a lot of them are also going to be talking shutters because they’re coming out of a heavy shutter market in South Florida. you know, shutters have been big for us this year. Probably more growth in shutters than anything. Shades, I thought, would be our biggest, you know, it just seems like shutters seems to still be ruling, you know, unless we can just turn them. I don’t like taking away.

If somebody calls for shutters, I want to stay on the course and give them what they called for. Because sometimes you can try to do a takeaway for an easier install and quicker turnaround on that client. But at the end of the day, I like to leave people with where their heart sits. And if they say shutters, it’s the greatest product I’ve ever sold, so I say love it.

Will Hanke (30:12)
Right. Yeah, totally makes sense. Josh, I know you’re in Arizona in a pretty hot part of the country. Is there anything that’s on fire in your area?

Josh Tycksen (30:23)
There’s some seasonal trends I’ve noticed. Solar screens, there are these outside products, they’re not a high profit margin thing for us, but I found a company who goes out, measures them, builds them, brings them out and installs them. And so I can just sell, I mean, I’ve almost got my assistant completely taking over that division because she can do quotes and everything with just pictures and not have to go to their house at all. And so she feels incentivized.

Again, adding new products. Norman has the Smart Drape, like he said, and you know, when they flew us up there to VIP and, you know, treat us all special and takes over, you know, will the simple with Norman takes you over to their little shop there. That’s not like a, it feels like a storefront, but it’s actually for them to bring in reps and really train you on their products. And when they did that and showed us the, you know, the, the Smart Drape, that’s been a good ad for us. it’s not cranking yet in terms of, just.

where we go to for covering our sliding doors and stuff yet, but it’s another option that we get to provide now instead of just roller shades or honeycomb and nobody really likes to do vertical blinds. Same with Norman has this special blackout where they have sidetracks and it’s called 360 blackout. And that is insane. Where we’ll get calls to black out a master bedroom or a baby’s bedroom or just different places in a home.

You know, we just say add X to any window if you want complete blackout. And sometimes people go nuts for that. So it’s, kind of a differentiator that you can have where other people say blackout. So when people say, Hey, we need blackout. And I have to stop them. Hey, hold on. What do you mean blackout? Cause there’s room darkening is kind of the industry term that’s being referred to now where there’s blackout where you’re thinking there’s no light in the room. What are you asking about? And sometimes, no, we’re good. Just a darker room. And some people know I can’t have any light.

Will Hanke (32:03)
You

Josh Tycksen (32:18)
where it’s good that you clarified or they might have thought that a regular blackout shade would actually black out their room.

Will Hanke (32:25)
Interesting. So speaking of regional different things. I wanted to ask you guys about your local networks I think somebody mentioned realtors earlier on. How are you guys building out those local referral networks? Josh will go to you

Josh Tycksen (32:41)
I’m a member of BNI, Business Networking International. I just got back from that meeting. It’s every Tuesday morning at eight o’clock for a couple hours. There’s 50 other people in there that are specific to their own trades that they do. so I have 50 other people out there who are committed to, you know, making sure I get referred if they know anybody else looking for window treatments. You know, and we’re all in that ballpark for each other, you know, that I’ve got, I know somebody who does this or does that. And so I’ve got

a referral list as well that I modified my quote where when they, I print it out, I’ll show up at a home, I’ll do my stuff. And then I just say, if I have 10 or 15 minutes, I can print this for you right now. And they always say, great, that’d be awesome. So I just do it real quick on the computer. And when I print it, it flips the page over now on the backside says, what else are you looking for? Here’s some trusted people we’ve worked with that do flooring, roofing, landscaping, other home services trades. And it was mostly a benefit to them.

when we started doing that, it’s circled around now we’ve been doing it long enough where they’re always pushing for us now because, you know, if we have 45 leads or 35 closed deals in a month, that I would bet 20 to 25 % of them are flipping that over and calling some of those people.

Will Hanke (33:58)
That’s great. I think anytime you can be a resource for people, you still look good in their eyes, even if you just referred them to somebody that can do it better. You still got a little check mark in their mind, right? So that’s always helpful. Vince, how about you?

Vince Sturkie (34:10)
Mm-hmm.

know B &I is great. I actually founded a B &I years ago when I was in mortgage banking. I have preached B &I for years. There’s five chapters in my town. There’s no window treatment slots available or I’d be in one. They stay pretty booked up with a window treatment consultant in them. So it’s kind of got me out of it for the moment. But I will wind up back in a B &I when my turn comes up. For me,

I use networking, if I’m in a neighborhood and there’s a model home at the entrance, I’m not leaving turning out of that neighborhood without stopping and walking in and telling that attendant of that model home, hey, I’m working in a house in here. If anyone buying a hall mask, we’d love to help them with their window treatments. I just try to use the boots on the ground stuff that’s easy, hitting those model homes, hitting those real estate agents when they meet you at the house to unlock the door to let you in to measure.

for the out of town client, know, try to use that as a chance to introduce myself in what we do. And it is making a difference. Well, I get referrals from builders and realtors I’ve never even heard of. These people need to refer people and they’ll refer people they don’t even know if they don’t know someone and they’re asked for a referral. I’ve done it. So, you know,

Will Hanke (35:27)
You

Vince Sturkie (35:40)
It definitely makes a difference to get your card in front of those people and try to keep it there because they will refer people. They need to because people don’t know people.

Will Hanke (35:51)
Yeah, referral traffic obviously always a little bit warmer as well, right? A little easier to close. So that definitely helps having those relationships and building those relationships as time goes on.

Vince Sturkie (36:03)
right.

Will Hanke (36:05)
So I wanted to ask quick about technology. So I know that technology is always changing from the smart home side, the motorization side, but even from just the running a business side. So how are you guys leveraging different digital tools in your networking and in your client relationships?

Josh Tycksen (36:25)
Vince, you’re probably going to take the cake on this. I used to run restaurants. had several restaurants I was in charge of down here in Arizona. That’s why I moved here. And I got so sick of every employee that was under me. All their problems started to become my problems that I got really sick of big, big crews and big staffs and lots of people. So when I switched to this, I was myself and I loved it for so long because I had total control of my schedule. And then it got, you know,

naturally got kind of worn out. I brought on some help to at least do the installs. And I’ve gone through where I’ve brought on a little more, where I’ve trimmed down to a little bit less, but you sound like you’ve got a full on store and several people and a couple of different trucks doing installs and know, three, four different people doing your sales where I systems are a hundred percent mandatory for you to function right without all those hiccups. You know, I’m still very caveman on a lot of that stuff. Cause I find is I’ve

This is where I need the most work. There’s so much opportunity for me here, but I get annoyed with the delay. Most of those systems, if I bring in some sort of a ordering portal system that maybe makes it simpler to work between all of my team and the customer and the payment systems and whatever in the schedule, it adds two weeks onto our install time, it seems like, because those orders just take forever to submit or whatever. I haven’t found solutions that I’ve been patient with.

never get it that i think too much into productive word sometimes get that done on sitting here

Vince Sturkie (37:55)
Well, I get it because you can probably do more with your cell phone than I can with a $50,000 processor sitting in front of me. I am a little more old school. So the technology that people are able to, things they can do on their phones, I can’t even do them. But the one thing that has helped me is we have our quoting software, so that gets us into the digital agent quoting.

We have Blanco and we have Will with Lead Boomerang, is really, to me, I know that we’re capturing more leads because of Lead Boomerang than we were when we were simply answering the phone or getting a web form submitted, which was what we were before the days of Winda Treatment Marketing Pro. So I think technology-wise there, I think those things have been huge for us.

Josh Tycksen (38:25)
Which software do you guys use? OK.

Vince Sturkie (38:55)
I have a lot of room to grow in this. I don’t trust things. I mean, I test my phone number almost daily. I go online and I pull the numbers we’re using for tracking. I’m calling them because I’m scared they’re not working, especially on the days I don’t get any calls. I’m like, okay, what’s wrong with the phone number? And sometimes, believe it not, I found the numbers not working because something’s unplugged.

But at the end of the day, I would say, I confess, I probably have a very weak link in technology, in what I could be doing versus what I am doing. I’m always, I mean, I talk to people who call here wanting to sell us things to help us, just because I’m hopeful they might have a good idea that I need. When all they really want to do is take window treatment marketing pros away and start doing it for me. I’m like, no.

Will will tell you, it takes me years to trust somebody. I talked to Will Hank you five years ago and it took me four to get on board. So I roll a little too slow some days.

Will Hanke (39:55)
you

Yeah.

Josh Tycksen (40:03)
I mean, there’s still, yeah, so it sounds like we’re feeling the same there. I’ve worked with my blind co, they’re just, I don’t remember what it was that frustrated me. And I think it was just the delays if you submit through the portal and waiting. And I tell my customers 95 % of our orders this year, this is an accurate number, 95 % of our orders this year have been installed in 30 days or less. We’re averaging 23 days right now from sale to install. And that’s really a powerful tool or a really powerful sales, you know.

point to make that people appreciate when they’re moving into a new home and they’re want you installing the day after they close or they just moved in and now they’re feeling vulnerable or whatever. But even if it’s as simple as just having very organized photos on your phones, you can flip open and go to whatever type of product they’re looking for to be able to show them an example real quick. This is a stupid example. I use it often, but in the iPhone, they have a thing called predictive text. I think if you go to general and then keyboard,

They have these text replacement phrases. I have thousands where if I type, you know, there’s a built-in one, it’s OMW becomes on my way. Well, I’ve built it in now where I have videos. If you want to know about an automated shade, I can go AR1, AR2, AR3, whatever I type in pulls up a different YouTube link and sends it to them so they can see a video demo of that. And so when somebody says, what’s, we don’t really know what’s trending in homes right now. We’re kind of open to it. I have one trend one and it sends them a video of

what we’re seeing lately, you know, and then there’s, I mean, I don’t even know how to go off on that, that I have thousands of those terms in my phone and I’m used to it where GM becomes good morning or I have, you know, I mean, a whole, the things you type over and over, you get sick of typing to people, your address, your email, your whatever, all of them are three digit short codes for me that somehow I have memorized and I just, I don’t want to type that anymore. As soon as I ever feel that I don’t want to type that anymore. I go in and type it up in there.

Will Hanke (41:40)
That’s fantastic.

Josh Tycksen (42:02)
And that way I can just remember whatever three letters it was to send out to somebody. And that’s really sped up communication and simplified things for them. Cause then they get a video that explains all the things they’re probably going to start asking me. know, so there’s, there are advantages to a lot of the technology that we use. This is a perfect example. You’re doing a podcast. If other people are tuned in and watching, they could be finding solutions as we chat, you know, so there’s

Vince Sturkie (42:15)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Will Hanke (42:28)
I love

that. I love the shortcut.

Josh Tycksen (42:29)
I’m not very good with

the systems part, bringing all those systems in to help me, but yeah, that’s a little technology thing I like to use that I think helps.

Will Hanke (42:33)
Yeah.

That’s awesome. Well, I thank you guys for being on. As we kind of switch, I do want to continue to talk a little bit about technology, but I want to get into 2025. What are some of the emerging technologies that you guys are starting to come across or that you’ve seen and you can’t wait to kind of get your hands on? Vince?

Vince Sturkie (42:57)
gee, I don’t know of anything. mean, maybe I’m out of touch. But I think that one of the things I’m not using that I know exist is being able to put the customer’s windows on my iPad and then dress their windows within the software that the vendors are providing us. Dress their windows with a specific treatment so they can see that roller shade in their window in their home.

That exists with a couple of people that we’re dealing with. I’m not currently using that, but I’m hearing good feedback that a customer actually told me they showed me a picture of my window with the treatment in it. And I’m like, wow, I’d heard about this from Graber. And they showed me how the app worked, where we could do it. I just have not embraced that technology yet. I see where that could be a big plus.

Especially when you’re standing in front of that customer and most of them aren’t like this, but they’re looking all off into space, they’re lost as a goose, they don’t know what to do, and you’re trying to reel them down to a decision on what direction to go with the product. And they’re just not, you’re talking roller shades, honeycomb, sheer shades, you’re talking about a lot of different things, they don’t know what’s going on, you gotta get it in front of them, they gotta be able to see it.

I’ve got it all loaded on my iPad as far as the products, but I think the show and tell or show and sale really works in our business. I had a lady jump out of her skin yesterday on the Smart Drape and I just flipped my iPad around, showed her what it looked like, the video that Norman puts out. She was ready to pick the fabric. before she saw the product, she didn’t have any idea what it cost. So I think…

That technology is the piece that I would definitely want to try to add in next year. You know, now that this, you know, that’s something I believe will help us.

Will Hanke (44:57)
Yeah, yeah, I would say from a marketing website standpoint, our clients always have high traffic on their gallery related pages. On any of the pages that have pictures and videos, people just want to kind of envision what their home could potentially look like. So it makes total sense that that tool where you can actually take a picture of theirs and show it to them, that’s pretty amazing. That’s awesome. Josh, what are you looking forward to in 2025?

Vince Sturkie (45:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Josh Tycksen (45:27)
Yeah, I mean, I’ve heard kind of what he’s talking about over there. I don’t have a lot of that. You know, I mostly sell from two brands right now. I mean, I’ve got, there’s more than that, but it feels like the more brands I open up to, harder it becomes to teach this to other people. You know, just, so I don’t know. I do want to offer anyway, that’s, that’s drifting, but, I like how you said show and sale. I think that’s a really good example. We get people off and they go, okay, cool. That video you just showed me. Do you have that with this fabric? Like, no.

It’s hard enough to organize an automated version of that product, let alone with this valance and that color. You know, there’s a competitor out here, another vendor we compete against or share the value with, and they have a thing where on their website you can build your shutter. That seems simple enough to me, just color, size of louvers, frame and control. But it seems like it’s an impossible thing to get, you know, that they seem to be the only one I know that can do that. Nobody cares to even

venture to figure out how to help me get that widget that somebody could just click on and click on this option, this option, and this option to see the color, the frame style, the size of the louvers, and whether it’s got a tilt rod or not, what it looks like. People see that and they go, yes, that’s what I my shirt to look like. And they could be convinced at that point. And that’s enough. As long as you show up and you don’t offend them or they’re not blown out by the price, they’re going to close. know, that kind of technology I think will continue to develop and be easier.

and more integrated into our processes. I’m excited to see who figures out making things easier for us in that realm. I’ve just started, somebody convinced me, I felt like an old fool to start using ChatGPT and I’ve got it now as like one of the key apps. Like all my apps are in folders. Every app on my phone is on one page except for ChatGPT by itself on the next page with my Bitcoin widget. But ChatGPT now has become something on the daily where

Will Hanke (47:15)
You

Josh Tycksen (47:24)
I’m stopping myself from responding to people and a customer might ask me a question or somebody sent me a text this morning and said, I got my other quote, they’re about $1,200 less than you. I really liked all your stuff, but I’m having a hard time deciding why I should work with you instead of them. And I asked chat GP, I put that text into chat GPT and asked them for a response and I sent it to them and they’re like, you’re right. Okay, let’s go. And I thought that was amazing.

You know, I go to BNI now and I don’t even write my own commercial anymore. say, write me a 15 second limerick that’s funny, that has to do with Christmas and my business. And it knows my stuff and it wrote a limerick, you know, about, I don’t know what it was, but everyone loved it. I got best commercial today. You know, it’s so silly, you know? So yeah, there’s stuff out there that like he says, you know, he’s excited about people calling him, offering him things to help with.

Will Hanke (47:59)
you

You

That’s awesome.

Josh Tycksen (48:20)
I dodge those calls quite a bit, but I do actively look for things I’m looking for. And I think that we need to not be closed off to that because some things are going to simplify and free up our time, which the older we get, we realize more and more is our most valuable asset. Now I’m excited to see what kind of stuff pops out here too and start implementing more of this, figure out how I can implement some of that artificial intelligence because I just, I’m like,

I’m asking it now how to respond to my wife when she sends me a text. And I’m like, it sounds so stupid. And it’s immediate. And I’m like, all right, I almost have a paid for subscription. Not yet. I’m sure I’ll be there.

Will Hanke (48:50)
Ha ha ha!

Vince Sturkie (48:51)
yeah.

Will Hanke (48:54)
That’s awesome.

Great.

I love it. That’s fantastic. ChatGPT is great. AI in general, I think, is going to dominate this year. We’re actually testing some AI booking bots right now for some clients and things like that that want to save time on just taking those initial calls. some of

Josh Tycksen (49:19)
Well, see, and I’ve tried

that with a call service and they tell us and I tried it, but then I would listen to those calls and these guys were getting so frustrated. That was like, I’m losing these appointments because this person can’t just answer that. You know, I just said, simplify, just set the appointment. But then it was a bunch of appointments with stuff. It’s like, okay, we didn’t need an appointment for that. You know, and screening it kind of still had to go through. But I think that will develop and be faster. But you could hear on the calls, they’d be waiting.

And then getting a response and I was like, that was too long for me. I can’t handle that. I’d be going crazy if I was a customer. I would not feel important. I would feel thrown into a system. So I don’t know. There’s a balance that I think will eventually even out to be to our advantage, but a lot of it I haven’t seen there yet. Doesn’t mean somebody else doesn’t figure it out. I guarantee there’s not only one person out there trying to figure out this answering service for us that will work for a window treatment industry, but.

Will Hanke (49:58)
Yeah.

Yeah, I would agree. think the timing.

Josh Tycksen (50:18)
All the people I’m seeing it do that referred me to it from HVAC, doesn’t seem to cut it yet.

Will Hanke (50:25)
Yeah, I definitely think AI is gonna be a big part of the coming year. All right, one more thing, as we close out, I really appreciate all you guys taking the time really to share everything about your business and some things for 2025. Josh, if there was one thing that you could tell another window treatment business, specifically about 2025, what would you say to them? What would you recommend that be their approach?

Josh Tycksen (50:56)
I I would assume the more I go to networking meetings and coaching and the more I subscribe to that as I get older, realizing that there’s a network of people there with answers to the same questions I have just in a different industry. I wouldn’t be afraid to invest in yourself or your business. would, you know, that was what slowed me down. I mean, I was learning. So it was good that I didn’t do too much that first year. would have bitten off more than I could have chewed and I would have done bad jobs. But

you know, establish your values and stick to them and make guide your decisions with those. You know, we’ll go over our core values as a business each day, whether it’s me and two people or me and seven people, where we go through those so that people don’t, they stop calling me or texting me on how to solve a problem. And I say, cause my answer comes back, I’ll respond with one of those core values. I’m looking at them right now, or I’ll just send them the list and say, how do you apply this? And later we might talk about it. So I can say, cool. That was a good solution.

We probably could have been more cost effective or more time effective in this regard. So you’ll learn if that ever happens again, this is how you’d apply that. But you stuck with our values. So they’re still going to love us and we’re still going to get five stars, right? And that kind of stuff. So I think having those values defined as a business, not where it’s like, here’s our core values and they’re printed somewhere and nobody could recite them, but like we read them every day. And that was a coaching aspect that we got that I from the coaching group that I was submitted to subscribed with. And that makes a big difference.

I really do believe in that.

Will Hanke (52:26)
I think I mentioned to you earlier, think hiring a business coach was one of the best things I could have ever done. Just having that other set of eyes, right? Helping you see your business from a different standpoint. thanks for sharing that. Vince, what about you? And what do you think would be a good thing to tell a window treatment company for the coming year?

Vince Sturkie (52:48)
Well I wouldn’t want to tell the guys down the street this a block away but nationally, first thing I would tell them is to fall in love with what you do if you don’t already love it. Because you need to walk into every home glad you’re there, loving that person, loving the opportunity to help them. If you don’t have that, you better get it. Because you’re gonna hate this business next year if you don’t. Because it’s hard…

Will Hanke (52:51)
You

Josh Tycksen (53:14)
I’m

Vince Sturkie (53:15)
Walking into a home is the hardest thing a person can do. They don’t know these people. You’ve got to develop a friendship. You’ve got to come across as an expert to them, be helpful. And if you don’t love what you do, you better fall in love with it. After that, you better find marketing people that you can trust because this business is not going to work without marketing. You better have a marketing guy behind you that you trust. It’s going to take care of you.

Josh Tycksen (53:35)
Bingo!

Vince Sturkie (53:45)
that you’re gonna invest your money with and then don’t be afraid to spend your money because I mean, customers get customers. If you have to pay to get customers, in a perfect world, they’d all be referrals, they’d already know who you are, they’d have a 95 % close rate, but we don’t live in a perfect world. We live in a transitory deal where we got people coming from all over, they don’t know who we are.

So we’ve got to find a way to reach them. We’re going to reach them through digital marketing. So I would say don’t be afraid to get out there in the digital marketing world. Take that risk to develop that relationship. know, Josh and I were texting a while back and you know, you know, we’re always frustrated with different things and different parts of our businesses. But the one thing is when you have somebody you trust, you wrap your arms around them and you go with them because that’s a difficult.

That’s a difficult thing to establish in marketing. Whether it be any type of marketing, but primarily being digital. So I’d say fall in love with what you do. Find a digital marketing company you trust. Grab a hold to them and then stay in the know on what you’re doing and don’t stop because this is a working business. This is not a sit at home and make money business. You’ve got to be in the truck, on the road, on the phone. You’ve got to be either talking to customers, talking to installers. You’ve got to be working.

So if you don’t want to work next year, get away from this. Because this is an earn your money business, but it’s a great business to be in if you’re willing to work.

Will Hanke (55:13)
you

That’s great. Vince, Josh, thank you. Thank you for the commercial. But thank you guys for your time and sharing your unique perspectives and experiences. I really do appreciate you guys taking the time to do this. If you enjoyed this episode of Marketing Pains, please consider subscribing. And we’ll have more episodes. We put one out every other Tuesday. And it’s always interviews, whether it’s other dealers or vendors, a lot of different people that we’re trying to.

get in front of you to give you more value. We appreciate your time. So please consider subscribing. Josh, Vince, one last time. Thank you guys so much for jumping on today. I appreciate it.

Vince Sturkie (55:59)
You bet, thanks Will.

Josh Tycksen (56:01)
My pleasure, thanks.

Will Hanke (56:03)
Thanks everyone, we’ll see you in the next episode.

Guest Profile: David Soria

David has been in the industry since the mid 90s before joining America’s Window Covering Buying Network in 2021. His previous experiences include in-home sales for a local retailer and sales management as well as field sales for national brand suppliers to the industry.

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To learn more about David Soria visit:

America’s Window Covering Buying Network

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Transcript

William Hanke (00:02)
All right, hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today’s guest is David Soria. David has been in the window treatment industry since the mid 90s before joining America’s Window Covering Buying Network in 2021.

His previous experiences include in-home sales for a local retailer and sales management, as well as field sales for national brand suppliers to the industry. David, thank you so much for being on today.

David Soria (00:43)
welcome.

William Hanke (00:45)
Excited to have you here and kind of talk through a little bit about what’s known as the network, I guess, right? Yeah, awesome. So why don’t you start out by sharing a little bit of background about your journey, obviously, in the window treatment industry and some key roles that have helped you kind of shape your expertise.

David Soria (00:51)
Yep, that’s right.

Sure, sure. You I got started in the industry when I answered a newspaper one ad, if you remember those, looking for a salesperson, somebody who might have an interest in design and who would be doing shop at home sales for that company. at the time I’d done some in-home sales, had a background in theater design and also in teaching.

William Hanke (01:15)
You

David Soria (01:33)
And the job sounded interesting. And this was for a fairly large window coverings retailer in the Chicago area. And when I started with them, they had over a dozen shop at home decorators working for them, big company. They had their own workroom, made their own drapery, vertical, shears, top treatments. And, you know, talk about a nice problem. They were drowning in leads. I got a two week

crash course in their showroom on blind shades and drapery and then I started taking sales calls. I mentioned that they were busy. I still remember I took 20 in-home calls my first full week with them. Mostly for hard treatments but still 20. A of customers to see. The owner had really great plans to expand.

William Hanke (02:21)
Wow.

David Soria (02:28)
eventually moved me into a supervisory role doing ride-alongs with the team, training, setting up promotions, working with the general manager and our marketing manager to develop programs and incentives. At the time, I didn’t know that the owner was building up some debt behind the scenes and that eventually caught up with him and forced him to close. I was fortunate enough to leave before that happened.

I then went to work as a territory rep for a hard treatment fabricator that had recently expanded into the Midwest. I was with them for some really tremendous growth and change at that company and the industry. We saw our product mix shift dramatically from more commodity products like verticals and cellular into the explosion of interest in horizontal woods then.

natural shade category and really the first big wave of screen shades and motorization. That company was eventually purchased by a larger national company right around the time of the 07-08 financial crisis and a number of years later they got absorbed into another company. I continued with them for a number of years before I moved on.

wanted to make a change, do less travel and have more time with my family. But it was a great way to learn about the industry. I couldn’t have asked for a better training ground. Having a chance to do the shop at home taught me a ton about product sales and the challenges that designers and retailers face every day. That in turn made me a better territory rep for the two companies I worked with.

you know, walked in the dealer’s shoes before. So I knew how important training, follow-up and the dealer support really could be. Now, as you said, I’ve been with America’s Window Covering Buying Network almost four years now as national sales manager. And that gives me an opportunity to really synthesize a lot of those previous experiences as I work with our account team, our members and our vendors.

William Hanke (04:52)
Yeah, I love the fact that you’re kind of homegrown, right? You’ve already walked the walk and you understand what they’re going through now, right? And the kind of struggles that they have, even down to the point of understanding the in-home sales process. I love that.

David Soria (05:07)
Yeah, yeah, and it is a process.

William Hanke (05:10)
Very good. Yeah. Yeah. So all that brings you to what we call the network. And tell me a little bit about AWS CBN as an overview.

David Soria (05:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, sure. America’s Window Covering Buying Network. And we shorten that to the network a lot of times. We’ve been servicing the company’s been servicing the industry for over 20 years now. And in fact, one of the vendors that I used to work with had been a supplier. So I remember meeting with the owner here at the network, Alan Meyer, to discuss our company’s programs. They had to be, you know, over 10, 15 years ago now.

William Hanke (05:48)
Okay.

David Soria (05:53)
The company is a nationwide membership group serving window covering professionals, designers, workrooms, independent retailers. Now here I work with our account team as well as our members and vendors. I’m involved in several areas contributing to our printed newsletter, organizing monthly webinars for members, along with other functions here. It’s pretty amazing though to see the growth we’ve had just

In the few years I’ve been here, we have members in all 50 states. We’re going to hit 1,500 members total before the end of the year, 2024. And right before the pandemic, we were happy to hit 1,000. So that’s some pretty significant growth.

William Hanke (06:33)
Nice.

That’s fantastic. I love the list of things that you’re involved in. It doesn’t sound like you’ve got a dull moment. That’s awesome. That’s great. So Tell me a little bit more about a buying network. What is that and how does it benefit somebody who may be listening to the podcast today?

David Soria (06:50)
No, never a dumb moment. I love it.

Sure. Well, to start off with buying groups have been around a long time and in a lot of different industries. The idea is pretty straightforward, pretty simple. Members of a buying group receive better discounts on their purchases because the group leverages the total buying power of the membership for the benefit of the members. Now in the window treatment industry, this means the vendors will offer network members discounts that members

would not ordinarily be able to receive on their own. For some vendors, you know, I think you can think of it as a franchise level buying power. Various vendors offer sample discounts as much as 50%, a dealer spiff, aggressive promotions, some exclusive to the members. One vendor has even created a natural shade book that only members have access to to sell a private label option.

And that’s obviously a real game changer for those members who were in competitive markets.

William Hanke (08:10)
There’s a lot of window treatment dealers out there now that are probably selling the products that you guys have partners with, and they don’t realize they could be getting some sort of a discount just by being in the buying network.

David Soria (08:22)
Right? Right?

William Hanke (08:24)
Yeah, that’s pretty cool. So and you said it’s around close to 1500 now. So you guys got some decent leverage on the on that side as well.

David Soria (08:34)
Yes.

William Hanke (08:36)
That’s great. I love to hear that. That’s really cool. Kind of a different approach to it. What is when we look at a WCBN or the network, what is kind of your core value proposition that you promote?

David Soria (08:52)
Sure. You know, our bottom line goal as a company is to help our members by making their businesses stronger, more profitable, and ultimately more successful.

William Hanke (09:06)
OK. And you guys do that through, obviously, the vendor relationships. But you also mentioned that you have some other things like a newsletter. Tell me a little bit more about that.

David Soria (09:15)
Yeah, sure. We publish a monthly newsletter that has a wide amount of industry information, articles, certainly from our vendors, but general interest articles to anybody who’s in the industry from industry experts, from Roger Mcgalliff, Deb Barrett, Jessica Harling, the one and only Will Hankey.

contributes so it’s great and it’s a hard publication. mean we mail this out, it’s not an e-newsletter and we hear stories from our dealers who say, you know, can you tell me what the fabric is on the cover because I have a customer who saw it in my shop and is looking for that. So that happens all the time.

William Hanke (09:45)
you

wow. That’s cool. I love that in the digital world, you guys are kind of going the old school route a little bit. And and the newsletter is not just like a sheet of paper. Like it’s it’s a legit magazine, I guess. That’s great. And every month different every month, obviously, the the the people that submit articles. But you guys also have things in there specific to vendors teaching that kind of stuff as well. Right.

David Soria (10:22)
28 page, Yep.

Yep. We view it as an educational piece that anybody who picks this up, you know, it’s like, it’s like going to a training, right? If you can walk out of a training meeting with a vendor or speaker and walk away with one or two, two or three actionable items, it’s been worth your time.

William Hanke (11:00)
Yeah, that’s great. OK. What about who joins the network? So what is the typical vendor or retailer look like?

David Soria (11:10)
Well, I don’t know that there is one I mean we have a wide variety of businesses who joined from Really the small mom-and-pop companies up to large million dollar plus retailers We have folks who are strictly a shop at home working out of their house or office as well as really well established bricks and mortar folks there are

interior design firms, window covering specialists, work rooms, installers even who sell decorators, designers. There are even some floor covering or furniture retailers that also have a window treatment department. If they’re independent companies and sell window covering, they should consider becoming a member. I do want to stress independence if I could just for a moment. mean,

William Hanke (11:49)
Okay.

David Soria (12:00)
Folks that don’t already belong to a window covering franchise group that has their own buying program like a, well, you know the names, Budget Blinds, Gotcha Covered and others. The franchises sometimes get handed specific vendors and programs by that parent company and obviously pay a significant amount of money to sell those approved vendors. They often are paying a monthly fee for various services.

accounting, marketing, stuff like that, besides the initial buy-in to the franchise and any regular royalty payments. I know some do, some don’t, but the cost to belong to one of those can add up really fast. Groups like that lock down their franchises for a certain number of years unless they end up selling a territory. We’ve even had members over the years who’ve joined after they

left one of those arrangements sold or whatever separation and opened as an independent. And, you know, our membership, the network membership for a dealer, it’s only $180 a year. And we have not increased that in several years. So get it now before the price goes up, right? Our members tell us that they saved, often saved their membership fee on the first order.

William Hanke (13:18)
That’s right.

David Soria (13:26)
You asked me about who should consider joining if you say look at business size or revenue too and there’s no real minimum or maximum revenue to begin to see a benefit. We see it all the time for many members that depending on the vendor it may be only one or two orders for the membership to pay for itself.

William Hanke (13:50)
Yeah, yeah, 180 bucks a year. It doesn’t sound like it’s a it’s a big roadblock to get started, right? And yeah, yeah. So can you tell me you don’t have to be specific, but with a couple of vendors, can you tell me what kinds of discounts somebody could expect to get?

David Soria (13:59)
No. It’s not a big ask.

Sure, you know and any discount has value I mentioned One vendor has a program where members can get as much as 50 % off samples But another one has you know 25 % off sampling in terms of product discounts Often those are you know 5 10 15 as much as 20 % when you

pile on some of the promos that they’re doing as well.

William Hanke (14:44)
Got it. Okay. That’s really cool. Are there any ranges like revenue ranges for people that join your program where it starts to really become beneficial to them?

David Soria (14:56)
Yeah, you know, the more the more dealer sells, the more they’re going to save. mean, I would put it that way. On the other hand, even that company that says, hey, you know, I only do a little bit with XYZ vendor, should I really join? And it only takes a few orders during a calendar year for some vendors to make that membership pay for itself.

So I would say that regardless of the vendor, the dealer’s purchase level, that they should look at it closely and see whether it would be beneficial to them. And that’s part of our account manager’s job here is to work with dealers, look at the membership closely, and see whether it would help them. For some, it will help them a lot. And if it doesn’t, you know.

William Hanke (15:50)
Makes sense. I also can see that somebody who maybe contacts you, maybe they’re only using one of the vendors that you offer, but might get exposed by just being part of your program to other vendors that they didn’t realize even existed. And maybe end up saving money on products they’re already offering.

David Soria (16:12)
Yeah, we do hear that as well is, hey, you know, I joined because of this company or that company, but then I discovered this other company that has a product that, you know, other people in my market are using that I’ve heard about. I’ve learned more. And I wanted to add them to the mix. I definitely, definitely hear that from our members.

William Hanke (16:38)
Sure, yeah. And my company, Window Treatment Marketing Pros, is a preferred marketing vendor for you guys. We do get people that outreach to us and say, I didn’t think about marketing my business, but I probably should be thinking about that. And our name came up, of course. So we do get those same kinds of conversations where they didn’t realize that there was something else that they needed to grow their business.

David Soria (16:44)
Yes.

William Hanke (17:08)
So that’s always a great benefit, maybe a hidden benefit on your end that they realize after signing up.

David Soria (17:17)
Yep, absolutely.

William Hanke (17:19)
Cool. Let’s talk about challenges. So what are some of the biggest challenges that your members face and how does, you know, like a buying group really help them address those challenges?

David Soria (17:33)
Well, know, bottom line for the members joining is saving money. So we want to be able to do that for them first and foremost. You know, and obviously if you can reduce your costs, you’re going to make more money, be more profitable in the long run. But in terms of the challenge that are going on right now, I think we all recognize the market is super competitive.

not just about being able to maintain your margins, but dealers have to generate enough leads to fuel sales. You brought up the marketing component and you know, there are all these marketing services through additional vendor partnerships that from enhancing SEO, driving leads, website design, CRM setup, email marketing campaigns. You know, there are a lot of ways that, that members

can derive benefits to address that kind of a challenge. I know I’m aging myself by saying that the retailer I used to work for generated leads by running an ad in the local shopper paper, right? They even tried out a TV guide ad and it didn’t work out too well. But nowadays it’s digital marketing, using your website to drive leads, repeat customers, grow business, generate reviews online, get noticed in the first place.

William Hanke (18:46)
Right.

David Soria (19:02)
And many window covering dealers just don’t have that expertise, nor do they have the time to do the work it takes to comprehensively market their businesses. So having marketing partners who understand the window covering industry really is, you know, a game changer for them.

William Hanke (19:23)
Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s been a great partnership for us, obviously. I wanted to also I want to also ask you about webinars. You mentioned obviously the newspaper newsletter, whatever you call it, that goes out, the physical one. You guys also do webinars to help your members learn different things about different aspects of their business. It’s not just.

David Soria (19:27)
We appreciate it. Yeah.

William Hanke (19:49)
vendors pitching products, right? It’s a learning type session.

David Soria (19:53)
Right. Yeah. You know, we do at least one webinar a month, sometimes additional ones. We bring on our vendor partners to really be the star of those and to share something new about what’s going on. So if they have a product launch, if they have product promotion, if they have updates, training on a product, and many times,

What we’ve encouraged is that the vendors, and we started doing these, by the way, during COVID where nobody was meeting in person. And so it was an opportunity we realized for vendors to bring their showroom alive by showing it and doing the next best thing to having that sales rep sit down across the table, which was to show product, show samples and demo that.

And obviously, you know, that sales rep or sales rep team can only meet with one person at a time. Whereas our vendor webinars are open to our entire membership. So you can have have the national sales manager from a particular company presenting product or the product expert in that company presenting product to people from coast to coast and

So that’s very powerful. And it’s also an opportunity for somebody, say, who doesn’t have an account with a particular vendor to get a firsthand look at that product without the push, the sales angle of, I showed you my product, now sign off. They can judge for themselves whether that product line fits their needs.

William Hanke (21:46)
I love that. think that’s really smart that people can get on and watch those and do it in their own time, right? Without a huge time commitment as well, which obviously is important for people that are trying to run a business. Yeah. So one last thing. I did have a note here that you guys also have a private Facebook group that I’m assuming all your members have access to and can ask questions not just to the vendors, but to each other, right?

David Soria (22:16)
Yeah, we do maintain a private Facebook group as well as a public page. But on the Facebook group itself, there are no vendors. you know, we do encourage if you have something that’s nagging you about a particular vendor, give us a call. We, you know, talk about a one-on-one, but we see members posting tricky windows that they’re looking for advice for.

William Hanke (22:27)
okay.

David Soria (22:44)
the same as some of the other Facebook groups, but what’s different is you don’t have that vendor jumping on and saying sell my product, I’m the solution. You have other business owners who’ve seen the same window can make suggestions, can share their expertise and advice. So it’s very helpful to the members, I think.

William Hanke (22:53)
Yeah.

That’s great. mean, for 180 bucks a year, mean, just that would be worth it, right? That you could save a ton of money just by asking, how can I complete this project? And who can point me in the right direction?

David Soria (23:20)
Yeah, and you know, one of the things too, well, that we see is that members, by taking advantage of the various things that we offer, we see them growing their businesses at a faster pace and by having additional promotions, better pricing, they’re getting better margins. You know, it’s recently, I was recently talking to one of the territory reps from one of

the vendors that we work with. And she was saying she’s talking up our membership. Well, why? She shared that the dealers in her neck of the woods, her territory, the ones who are network members, she was seeing grow at a greater incremental rate and the non-network dealers were just kind of flat. So she was encouraging them to, you know, get on board.

and join and we love to hear stories like that. We hope that we can provide members with a leg up with those tools. The website, the Facebook, the webinars, all of that.

William Hanke (24:35)
That’s great. I mean, it makes total sense that if they’re saving money on the same types of products that everybody’s selling, they’d have more cash flow, right?

Cool. So question about the industry overall. I always like to ask this kind of question. What kind of marketing trends are certain, not even just marketing, what kind of trends are you guys seeing that is, should be important and on the radar for window treatment businesses as we roll into 2025?

David Soria (25:06)
Sure, you know, we always talk about that and trying to look for, know, what the hot trends are and what trend in one market is going and maybe not in another. I think my advice would be for the dealers wherever they are to analyze their local market really carefully. You know, what’s happening in their market may not be what’s happening nationwide.

tell you roller shades or motorization, but there are always exceptions for the latest trend. You know, I recently spoke to one of our members and she’s not in a small market. And she said, we’re still selling a surprising number of vertical blinds. I’m not going to give you that as a national trend, but you just never know for a particular market what, the hot product is. You know, that said, I would encourage any dealer.

has not yet embraced motorization to really get on board. It’s only going to grow in popularity and that means talking about it on every sales call, showing a motorized hand sample. If you have a showroom, having motorized product in your showroom. We have a vendor that has extra discounting specifically targeted to SOMTI motorization so that our members are able to save

additional on those products. I’d encourage dealers also to look beyond the interior window and expand their horizons. You know, if they’re just selling blinds and shades, what would happen to their business if they added soft options? That seems to be a growing trend. Fabric shades, drapery, balance, even just a simple panel program. What would that do to your bottom line? You’re in the home.

What about wall covering, rugs or accessory items if you’re already in soft? What about adding that? How about exterior product? Certainly, you know, some of the companies, have an exterior shade, but what about zip screens? What about awnings, pergolas, structures, exterior shutters and the like? We’re looking at some additional things to bring to our members next year and we’re really excited to…

to be able to do that. These are trends that are in the industry towards that outside of the house product. If dealers haven’t seen it in their market yet. In terms of marketing, you brought that up earlier. Have they updated their website? Do they have a dated appearance or does it show everything that they offer? Does it tell a story? Does it entice a customer to get in touch?

personal touch, like the owner’s picture even. How do they stay in touch with their current customer base? Do they have an email newsletter or other ways to generate word-of-mouth referrals? And obviously we’re in a visual industry and I think the cutting-edge businesses are making sure that they’re capturing great photos from their jobs, posting them, using social media, geo-tagging them.

I’ve heard from designers and workrooms that are having great success with Instagram reaching their target customers, making connections long term. Get the word out, tell your story.

William Hanke (28:44)
I love it. You’ve summarized more than I could ask when it comes to some sort of advice on what to do. What a great list of things that obviously, these are actionable items that people can, that they can grab and start to do. A lot of them aren’t even that costly to do so.

David Soria (29:04)
Yeah. I mean, look at your client mix. Who are they? Where are they? How did you find them? What are they buying? And look at your vendors. I mean, that’s where we come in to a little bit. Look at the big or even small changes in the industry. This is year end. It’s the time to reconsider a lot of things in your business. How would you tweak it for 2025? Are you reconsidering your mix of product, your mix of vendors?

And, you know, was last year better or worse than 2023? And what might you do differently? Are you ready to grow, ready to hire, open or expand a showroom? Bottom line, what are you, what are you driven to do with and for your business in the new year?

William Hanke (29:57)
Yeah, fantastic advice. I love it. When it comes to putting all that together and coming up with a plan, joining the network should be something that they consider. Where would somebody go to learn more about it?

David Soria (30:13)
Sure. Our website awcbn.com is a public facing page. There’s a members log in there where our members have additional information, but that public page gives a lot of information, FAQ information about joining. can check it out there. There is an application that they can fill out right.

right online, it’s a secure server to handle the payment, DocuSign server, and the links there. If they have questions, they can call us here at the office. We’re here in the central time zone at 847-281-3152, and we’re here Monday through Friday most days, 8 to 430.

William Hanke (31:08)
you

David Soria (31:09)
You know, we’ll take a little time off for Thanksgiving and all, but yeah, give us a call and we’d be happy to answer any questions. And if you have questions about if joining made sense for your particular business, we can definitely work through that.

William Hanke (31:29)
Love it. And you’ve got a great sales staff, too, that can answer a lot of the questions that might come up.

Love it. That’s great. So David, thank you so much for being on today. I’ve learned a lot about the network. I think it’s a great no brainer for people in the window treatment industry. And as you mentioned, some other industries as well where there’s still some advantage there. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much for being on today.

David Soria (32:01)
Thank you, Will. Enjoyed talking about it with you.

William Hanke (32:04)
Yeah, no problem at all. If you found today’s conversation helpful, be sure to check out our previous episodes and subscribe to our podcast so you don’t miss the next update. We’ll have more insightful discussions and expert guests coming your way to help you thrive in the window treatment and awning business. Stay inspired, and we’ll see you next time. Thanks again, David.

David Soria (32:28)
Thank you.

William Hanke (32:32)
Sweet.

Transcript

William Hanke (00:02)
All right, hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today’s guest is David Soria. David has been in the window treatment industry since the mid 90s before joining America’s Window Covering Buying Network in 2021.

His previous experiences include in-home sales for a local retailer and sales management, as well as field sales for national brand suppliers to the industry. David, thank you so much for being on today.

David Soria (00:43)
welcome.

William Hanke (00:45)
Excited to have you here and kind of talk through a little bit about what’s known as the network, I guess, right? Yeah, awesome. So why don’t you start out by sharing a little bit of background about your journey, obviously, in the window treatment industry and some key roles that have helped you kind of shape your expertise.

David Soria (00:51)
Yep, that’s right.

Sure, sure. You I got started in the industry when I answered a newspaper one ad, if you remember those, looking for a salesperson, somebody who might have an interest in design and who would be doing shop at home sales for that company. at the time I’d done some in-home sales, had a background in theater design and also in teaching.

William Hanke (01:15)
You

David Soria (01:33)
And the job sounded interesting. And this was for a fairly large window coverings retailer in the Chicago area. And when I started with them, they had over a dozen shop at home decorators working for them, big company. They had their own workroom, made their own drapery, vertical, shears, top treatments. And, you know, talk about a nice problem. They were drowning in leads. I got a two week

crash course in their showroom on blind shades and drapery and then I started taking sales calls. I mentioned that they were busy. I still remember I took 20 in-home calls my first full week with them. Mostly for hard treatments but still 20. A of customers to see. The owner had really great plans to expand.

William Hanke (02:21)
Wow.

David Soria (02:28)
eventually moved me into a supervisory role doing ride-alongs with the team, training, setting up promotions, working with the general manager and our marketing manager to develop programs and incentives. At the time, I didn’t know that the owner was building up some debt behind the scenes and that eventually caught up with him and forced him to close. I was fortunate enough to leave before that happened.

I then went to work as a territory rep for a hard treatment fabricator that had recently expanded into the Midwest. I was with them for some really tremendous growth and change at that company and the industry. We saw our product mix shift dramatically from more commodity products like verticals and cellular into the explosion of interest in horizontal woods then.

natural shade category and really the first big wave of screen shades and motorization. That company was eventually purchased by a larger national company right around the time of the 07-08 financial crisis and a number of years later they got absorbed into another company. I continued with them for a number of years before I moved on.

wanted to make a change, do less travel and have more time with my family. But it was a great way to learn about the industry. I couldn’t have asked for a better training ground. Having a chance to do the shop at home taught me a ton about product sales and the challenges that designers and retailers face every day. That in turn made me a better territory rep for the two companies I worked with.

you know, walked in the dealer’s shoes before. So I knew how important training, follow-up and the dealer support really could be. Now, as you said, I’ve been with America’s Window Covering Buying Network almost four years now as national sales manager. And that gives me an opportunity to really synthesize a lot of those previous experiences as I work with our account team, our members and our vendors.

William Hanke (04:52)
Yeah, I love the fact that you’re kind of homegrown, right? You’ve already walked the walk and you understand what they’re going through now, right? And the kind of struggles that they have, even down to the point of understanding the in-home sales process. I love that.

David Soria (05:07)
Yeah, yeah, and it is a process.

William Hanke (05:10)
Very good. Yeah. Yeah. So all that brings you to what we call the network. And tell me a little bit about AWS CBN as an overview.

David Soria (05:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, sure. America’s Window Covering Buying Network. And we shorten that to the network a lot of times. We’ve been servicing the company’s been servicing the industry for over 20 years now. And in fact, one of the vendors that I used to work with had been a supplier. So I remember meeting with the owner here at the network, Alan Meyer, to discuss our company’s programs. They had to be, you know, over 10, 15 years ago now.

William Hanke (05:48)
Okay.

David Soria (05:53)
The company is a nationwide membership group serving window covering professionals, designers, workrooms, independent retailers. Now here I work with our account team as well as our members and vendors. I’m involved in several areas contributing to our printed newsletter, organizing monthly webinars for members, along with other functions here. It’s pretty amazing though to see the growth we’ve had just

In the few years I’ve been here, we have members in all 50 states. We’re going to hit 1,500 members total before the end of the year, 2024. And right before the pandemic, we were happy to hit 1,000. So that’s some pretty significant growth.

William Hanke (06:33)
Nice.

That’s fantastic. I love the list of things that you’re involved in. It doesn’t sound like you’ve got a dull moment. That’s awesome. That’s great. So Tell me a little bit more about a buying network. What is that and how does it benefit somebody who may be listening to the podcast today?

David Soria (06:50)
No, never a dumb moment. I love it.

Sure. Well, to start off with buying groups have been around a long time and in a lot of different industries. The idea is pretty straightforward, pretty simple. Members of a buying group receive better discounts on their purchases because the group leverages the total buying power of the membership for the benefit of the members. Now in the window treatment industry, this means the vendors will offer network members discounts that members

would not ordinarily be able to receive on their own. For some vendors, you know, I think you can think of it as a franchise level buying power. Various vendors offer sample discounts as much as 50%, a dealer spiff, aggressive promotions, some exclusive to the members. One vendor has even created a natural shade book that only members have access to to sell a private label option.

And that’s obviously a real game changer for those members who were in competitive markets.

William Hanke (08:10)
There’s a lot of window treatment dealers out there now that are probably selling the products that you guys have partners with, and they don’t realize they could be getting some sort of a discount just by being in the buying network.

David Soria (08:22)
Right? Right?

William Hanke (08:24)
Yeah, that’s pretty cool. So and you said it’s around close to 1500 now. So you guys got some decent leverage on the on that side as well.

David Soria (08:34)
Yes.

William Hanke (08:36)
That’s great. I love to hear that. That’s really cool. Kind of a different approach to it. What is when we look at a WCBN or the network, what is kind of your core value proposition that you promote?

David Soria (08:52)
Sure. You know, our bottom line goal as a company is to help our members by making their businesses stronger, more profitable, and ultimately more successful.

William Hanke (09:06)
OK. And you guys do that through, obviously, the vendor relationships. But you also mentioned that you have some other things like a newsletter. Tell me a little bit more about that.

David Soria (09:15)
Yeah, sure. We publish a monthly newsletter that has a wide amount of industry information, articles, certainly from our vendors, but general interest articles to anybody who’s in the industry from industry experts, from Roger Mcgalliff, Deb Barrett, Jessica Harling, the one and only Will Hankey.

contributes so it’s great and it’s a hard publication. mean we mail this out, it’s not an e-newsletter and we hear stories from our dealers who say, you know, can you tell me what the fabric is on the cover because I have a customer who saw it in my shop and is looking for that. So that happens all the time.

William Hanke (09:45)
you

wow. That’s cool. I love that in the digital world, you guys are kind of going the old school route a little bit. And and the newsletter is not just like a sheet of paper. Like it’s it’s a legit magazine, I guess. That’s great. And every month different every month, obviously, the the the people that submit articles. But you guys also have things in there specific to vendors teaching that kind of stuff as well. Right.

David Soria (10:22)
28 page, Yep.

Yep. We view it as an educational piece that anybody who picks this up, you know, it’s like, it’s like going to a training, right? If you can walk out of a training meeting with a vendor or speaker and walk away with one or two, two or three actionable items, it’s been worth your time.

William Hanke (11:00)
Yeah, that’s great. OK. What about who joins the network? So what is the typical vendor or retailer look like?

David Soria (11:10)
Well, I don’t know that there is one I mean we have a wide variety of businesses who joined from Really the small mom-and-pop companies up to large million dollar plus retailers We have folks who are strictly a shop at home working out of their house or office as well as really well established bricks and mortar folks there are

interior design firms, window covering specialists, work rooms, installers even who sell decorators, designers. There are even some floor covering or furniture retailers that also have a window treatment department. If they’re independent companies and sell window covering, they should consider becoming a member. I do want to stress independence if I could just for a moment. mean,

William Hanke (11:49)
Okay.

David Soria (12:00)
Folks that don’t already belong to a window covering franchise group that has their own buying program like a, well, you know the names, Budget Blinds, Gotcha Covered and others. The franchises sometimes get handed specific vendors and programs by that parent company and obviously pay a significant amount of money to sell those approved vendors. They often are paying a monthly fee for various services.

accounting, marketing, stuff like that, besides the initial buy-in to the franchise and any regular royalty payments. I know some do, some don’t, but the cost to belong to one of those can add up really fast. Groups like that lock down their franchises for a certain number of years unless they end up selling a territory. We’ve even had members over the years who’ve joined after they

left one of those arrangements sold or whatever separation and opened as an independent. And, you know, our membership, the network membership for a dealer, it’s only $180 a year. And we have not increased that in several years. So get it now before the price goes up, right? Our members tell us that they saved, often saved their membership fee on the first order.

William Hanke (13:18)
That’s right.

David Soria (13:26)
You asked me about who should consider joining if you say look at business size or revenue too and there’s no real minimum or maximum revenue to begin to see a benefit. We see it all the time for many members that depending on the vendor it may be only one or two orders for the membership to pay for itself.

William Hanke (13:50)
Yeah, yeah, 180 bucks a year. It doesn’t sound like it’s a it’s a big roadblock to get started, right? And yeah, yeah. So can you tell me you don’t have to be specific, but with a couple of vendors, can you tell me what kinds of discounts somebody could expect to get?

David Soria (13:59)
No. It’s not a big ask.

Sure, you know and any discount has value I mentioned One vendor has a program where members can get as much as 50 % off samples But another one has you know 25 % off sampling in terms of product discounts Often those are you know 5 10 15 as much as 20 % when you

pile on some of the promos that they’re doing as well.

William Hanke (14:44)
Got it. Okay. That’s really cool. Are there any ranges like revenue ranges for people that join your program where it starts to really become beneficial to them?

David Soria (14:56)
Yeah, you know, the more the more dealer sells, the more they’re going to save. mean, I would put it that way. On the other hand, even that company that says, hey, you know, I only do a little bit with XYZ vendor, should I really join? And it only takes a few orders during a calendar year for some vendors to make that membership pay for itself.

So I would say that regardless of the vendor, the dealer’s purchase level, that they should look at it closely and see whether it would be beneficial to them. And that’s part of our account manager’s job here is to work with dealers, look at the membership closely, and see whether it would help them. For some, it will help them a lot. And if it doesn’t, you know.

William Hanke (15:50)
Makes sense. I also can see that somebody who maybe contacts you, maybe they’re only using one of the vendors that you offer, but might get exposed by just being part of your program to other vendors that they didn’t realize even existed. And maybe end up saving money on products they’re already offering.

David Soria (16:12)
Yeah, we do hear that as well is, hey, you know, I joined because of this company or that company, but then I discovered this other company that has a product that, you know, other people in my market are using that I’ve heard about. I’ve learned more. And I wanted to add them to the mix. I definitely, definitely hear that from our members.

William Hanke (16:38)
Sure, yeah. And my company, Window Treatment Marketing Pros, is a preferred marketing vendor for you guys. We do get people that outreach to us and say, I didn’t think about marketing my business, but I probably should be thinking about that. And our name came up, of course. So we do get those same kinds of conversations where they didn’t realize that there was something else that they needed to grow their business.

David Soria (16:44)
Yes.

William Hanke (17:08)
So that’s always a great benefit, maybe a hidden benefit on your end that they realize after signing up.

David Soria (17:17)
Yep, absolutely.

William Hanke (17:19)
Cool. Let’s talk about challenges. So what are some of the biggest challenges that your members face and how does, you know, like a buying group really help them address those challenges?

David Soria (17:33)
Well, know, bottom line for the members joining is saving money. So we want to be able to do that for them first and foremost. You know, and obviously if you can reduce your costs, you’re going to make more money, be more profitable in the long run. But in terms of the challenge that are going on right now, I think we all recognize the market is super competitive.

not just about being able to maintain your margins, but dealers have to generate enough leads to fuel sales. You brought up the marketing component and you know, there are all these marketing services through additional vendor partnerships that from enhancing SEO, driving leads, website design, CRM setup, email marketing campaigns. You know, there are a lot of ways that, that members

can derive benefits to address that kind of a challenge. I know I’m aging myself by saying that the retailer I used to work for generated leads by running an ad in the local shopper paper, right? They even tried out a TV guide ad and it didn’t work out too well. But nowadays it’s digital marketing, using your website to drive leads, repeat customers, grow business, generate reviews online, get noticed in the first place.

William Hanke (18:46)
Right.

David Soria (19:02)
And many window covering dealers just don’t have that expertise, nor do they have the time to do the work it takes to comprehensively market their businesses. So having marketing partners who understand the window covering industry really is, you know, a game changer for them.

William Hanke (19:23)
Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s been a great partnership for us, obviously. I wanted to also I want to also ask you about webinars. You mentioned obviously the newspaper newsletter, whatever you call it, that goes out, the physical one. You guys also do webinars to help your members learn different things about different aspects of their business. It’s not just.

David Soria (19:27)
We appreciate it. Yeah.

William Hanke (19:49)
vendors pitching products, right? It’s a learning type session.

David Soria (19:53)
Right. Yeah. You know, we do at least one webinar a month, sometimes additional ones. We bring on our vendor partners to really be the star of those and to share something new about what’s going on. So if they have a product launch, if they have product promotion, if they have updates, training on a product, and many times,

What we’ve encouraged is that the vendors, and we started doing these, by the way, during COVID where nobody was meeting in person. And so it was an opportunity we realized for vendors to bring their showroom alive by showing it and doing the next best thing to having that sales rep sit down across the table, which was to show product, show samples and demo that.

And obviously, you know, that sales rep or sales rep team can only meet with one person at a time. Whereas our vendor webinars are open to our entire membership. So you can have have the national sales manager from a particular company presenting product or the product expert in that company presenting product to people from coast to coast and

So that’s very powerful. And it’s also an opportunity for somebody, say, who doesn’t have an account with a particular vendor to get a firsthand look at that product without the push, the sales angle of, I showed you my product, now sign off. They can judge for themselves whether that product line fits their needs.

William Hanke (21:46)
I love that. think that’s really smart that people can get on and watch those and do it in their own time, right? Without a huge time commitment as well, which obviously is important for people that are trying to run a business. Yeah. So one last thing. I did have a note here that you guys also have a private Facebook group that I’m assuming all your members have access to and can ask questions not just to the vendors, but to each other, right?

David Soria (22:16)
Yeah, we do maintain a private Facebook group as well as a public page. But on the Facebook group itself, there are no vendors. you know, we do encourage if you have something that’s nagging you about a particular vendor, give us a call. We, you know, talk about a one-on-one, but we see members posting tricky windows that they’re looking for advice for.

William Hanke (22:27)
okay.

David Soria (22:44)
the same as some of the other Facebook groups, but what’s different is you don’t have that vendor jumping on and saying sell my product, I’m the solution. You have other business owners who’ve seen the same window can make suggestions, can share their expertise and advice. So it’s very helpful to the members, I think.

William Hanke (22:53)
Yeah.

That’s great. mean, for 180 bucks a year, mean, just that would be worth it, right? That you could save a ton of money just by asking, how can I complete this project? And who can point me in the right direction?

David Soria (23:20)
Yeah, and you know, one of the things too, well, that we see is that members, by taking advantage of the various things that we offer, we see them growing their businesses at a faster pace and by having additional promotions, better pricing, they’re getting better margins. You know, it’s recently, I was recently talking to one of the territory reps from one of

the vendors that we work with. And she was saying she’s talking up our membership. Well, why? She shared that the dealers in her neck of the woods, her territory, the ones who are network members, she was seeing grow at a greater incremental rate and the non-network dealers were just kind of flat. So she was encouraging them to, you know, get on board.

and join and we love to hear stories like that. We hope that we can provide members with a leg up with those tools. The website, the Facebook, the webinars, all of that.

William Hanke (24:35)
That’s great. I mean, it makes total sense that if they’re saving money on the same types of products that everybody’s selling, they’d have more cash flow, right?

Cool. So question about the industry overall. I always like to ask this kind of question. What kind of marketing trends are certain, not even just marketing, what kind of trends are you guys seeing that is, should be important and on the radar for window treatment businesses as we roll into 2025?

David Soria (25:06)
Sure, you know, we always talk about that and trying to look for, know, what the hot trends are and what trend in one market is going and maybe not in another. I think my advice would be for the dealers wherever they are to analyze their local market really carefully. You know, what’s happening in their market may not be what’s happening nationwide.

tell you roller shades or motorization, but there are always exceptions for the latest trend. You know, I recently spoke to one of our members and she’s not in a small market. And she said, we’re still selling a surprising number of vertical blinds. I’m not going to give you that as a national trend, but you just never know for a particular market what, the hot product is. You know, that said, I would encourage any dealer.

has not yet embraced motorization to really get on board. It’s only going to grow in popularity and that means talking about it on every sales call, showing a motorized hand sample. If you have a showroom, having motorized product in your showroom. We have a vendor that has extra discounting specifically targeted to SOMTI motorization so that our members are able to save

additional on those products. I’d encourage dealers also to look beyond the interior window and expand their horizons. You know, if they’re just selling blinds and shades, what would happen to their business if they added soft options? That seems to be a growing trend. Fabric shades, drapery, balance, even just a simple panel program. What would that do to your bottom line? You’re in the home.

What about wall covering, rugs or accessory items if you’re already in soft? What about adding that? How about exterior product? Certainly, you know, some of the companies, have an exterior shade, but what about zip screens? What about awnings, pergolas, structures, exterior shutters and the like? We’re looking at some additional things to bring to our members next year and we’re really excited to…

to be able to do that. These are trends that are in the industry towards that outside of the house product. If dealers haven’t seen it in their market yet. In terms of marketing, you brought that up earlier. Have they updated their website? Do they have a dated appearance or does it show everything that they offer? Does it tell a story? Does it entice a customer to get in touch?

personal touch, like the owner’s picture even. How do they stay in touch with their current customer base? Do they have an email newsletter or other ways to generate word-of-mouth referrals? And obviously we’re in a visual industry and I think the cutting-edge businesses are making sure that they’re capturing great photos from their jobs, posting them, using social media, geo-tagging them.

I’ve heard from designers and workrooms that are having great success with Instagram reaching their target customers, making connections long term. Get the word out, tell your story.

William Hanke (28:44)
I love it. You’ve summarized more than I could ask when it comes to some sort of advice on what to do. What a great list of things that obviously, these are actionable items that people can, that they can grab and start to do. A lot of them aren’t even that costly to do so.

David Soria (29:04)
Yeah. I mean, look at your client mix. Who are they? Where are they? How did you find them? What are they buying? And look at your vendors. I mean, that’s where we come in to a little bit. Look at the big or even small changes in the industry. This is year end. It’s the time to reconsider a lot of things in your business. How would you tweak it for 2025? Are you reconsidering your mix of product, your mix of vendors?

And, you know, was last year better or worse than 2023? And what might you do differently? Are you ready to grow, ready to hire, open or expand a showroom? Bottom line, what are you, what are you driven to do with and for your business in the new year?

William Hanke (29:57)
Yeah, fantastic advice. I love it. When it comes to putting all that together and coming up with a plan, joining the network should be something that they consider. Where would somebody go to learn more about it?

David Soria (30:13)
Sure. Our website awcbn.com is a public facing page. There’s a members log in there where our members have additional information, but that public page gives a lot of information, FAQ information about joining. can check it out there. There is an application that they can fill out right.

right online, it’s a secure server to handle the payment, DocuSign server, and the links there. If they have questions, they can call us here at the office. We’re here in the central time zone at 847-281-3152, and we’re here Monday through Friday most days, 8 to 430.

William Hanke (31:08)
you

David Soria (31:09)
You know, we’ll take a little time off for Thanksgiving and all, but yeah, give us a call and we’d be happy to answer any questions. And if you have questions about if joining made sense for your particular business, we can definitely work through that.

William Hanke (31:29)
Love it. And you’ve got a great sales staff, too, that can answer a lot of the questions that might come up.

Love it. That’s great. So David, thank you so much for being on today. I’ve learned a lot about the network. I think it’s a great no brainer for people in the window treatment industry. And as you mentioned, some other industries as well where there’s still some advantage there. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much for being on today.

David Soria (32:01)
Thank you, Will. Enjoyed talking about it with you.

William Hanke (32:04)
Yeah, no problem at all. If you found today’s conversation helpful, be sure to check out our previous episodes and subscribe to our podcast so you don’t miss the next update. We’ll have more insightful discussions and expert guests coming your way to help you thrive in the window treatment and awning business. Stay inspired, and we’ll see you next time. Thanks again, David.

David Soria (32:28)
Thank you.

William Hanke (32:32)
Sweet.

Guest Profile: Jessica Harling

Jessica Harling is a 4th Generation Window Treatment Specialist, founder of Behind the Design, and leading expert in employee and process development for design trade organizations. Behind the Design nurtures top talent through recruiting, onsite and online training, and consults with leadership in streamlining processes that increase productivity and impact the company’s bottom line.

Other Notes/Links:

To learn more about Jessica Harling visit:

Go Behind The Design

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

Listen to other episodes

Video

https://youtu.be/dLncJU8JgzQ

Click here to display Transcript


Transcript

Will Hanke – WTMP (00:00)
All right. Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today I have our first ever return guest and you know, when you’re, when you’re really good at what you do, you got to have them back on to pull out some more knowledge. So

I’m excited to have Jessica Harling on today. Jessica is a 4th generation window treatment specialist, founder of Behind the Design and leading expert in employee and process development for design trade organizations. Behind the Design nurtures top talent through recruiting, on -site and online training, and consults with leadership in streamlining processes that increase productivity and impact the company’s bottom line. Jessica, thank you for being on today.

Jessica Harling (00:54)
It is my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me again. I’m excited.

Will Hanke – WTMP (00:59)
Yeah, yeah, you’re pretty well known in the industry. So I’m sure a lot of people know who you are if they haven’t already heard the previous episode. But excited to have you on. For those that maybe don’t know, could you share a little bit of your background and your current role in the window treatment industry and how you help businesses succeed?

Jessica Harling (01:18)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I have a love of it that is very deep. I’m fourth generation in window treatments. So my great grandfather started business in 1936 in Chicago, and that’s where I learned the business. Got into it about 14 years ago and worked with my mom and my grandpa and opened then the consulting firm behind the design about eight years in.

and just haven’t looked back. It’s been a pleasure working with other window covering companies and interior design trades to help them with their recruiting, training, or their process development, which is my favorite part, is getting in there and uncovering what inefficiencies there are and making it more streamlined so that they can scale, they can get to those goals that they’re looking forward to.

Will Hanke – WTMP (02:14)
Yeah, I love that you grew up in the industry and you’re kind of like in it whether you wanted to be or not, right? I’m sure after school you came home or you came to the store and helped out and I also love that you found a niche inside of that. You didn’t just turn into another sales, into your salesperson like maybe your parents did that kind of stuff. I love that you kind of found your own path.

Jessica Harling (02:39)
Yeah, I really, I loved it. And the funny part is I didn’t know what my parents did for the longest time, my mom, my grandpa. I mean, they knew they were in design and I knew that every year when we had a garage sale, we’d be selling a lot of fabric and we had bolts and bolts of it in their garage. But before I got into the industry, I really didn’t know anything about it and wasn’t that kid that was going into the shop and stuff. So I learned everything from

Will Hanke – WTMP (02:48)
You

Okay.

Jessica Harling (03:08)
the incredible reps in this industry and of course the knowledge that my family brought to it. But that’s, you know, all been generated from working in the industry.

Will Hanke – WTMP (03:19)
Right, right. So tell me who your target market is for behind behind the design.

Jessica Harling (03:25)
Yeah, well we certainly love window covering companies still. So we work with a lot of them, but I’ve tried to expand it to the interior design trades. So we work with whole handful of interior designers, flooring, paint companies, anything that’s gonna beautify a home or even work with commercial companies. But usually our clients are starting to hit over that million dollar mark. They might be approaching two million.

and we help them get and scale to that $10 million mark or wherever their goal is towards that.

Will Hanke – WTMP (03:55)
Okay.

Okay, that’s a great niche. They have enough revenue to make changes, get things done. And also at a million, you’re probably to the point where you kind of have to get your SOPs in place. In a lot of places, they probably haven’t done that. And somehow they’re still selling a million dollars a year, which is insane.

Jessica Harling (04:10)
Yes.

Yep.

Yeah, absolutely. And it’s just so fun working with those business owners and teams. You we’re not just working with the owner. So everyone is on the same page with those processes because they’re the ones executing on it. So they need to get behind it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (04:31)
Yeah.

Right, right, very good. So how do you position yourself in the eyes of your customers?

Jessica Harling (04:41)
Yeah, I’m big on business development and one of the things that even, you my clients have commented on is that I have friends everywhere. And so part of working with Behind the Design is a holistic view of everything in their business. mean, literally we’ve helped with restructures where they thought they were going out of business and they had half a million in debt and we flipped it all around, got them profitable, put structures in place, hired a bunch of people,

them all. So whatever the problem is, we’re there to tackle it. And I know you’re big fan of Traction by Gina Wickman. It’s one of my favorite books. And so for anyone that loves that too, we are the integrators. That’s what we do. We take your ideas, your vision, and we come up with a plan and a pathway that makes sense for everyone in the company and how to execute it. And then we help you do that.

Will Hanke – WTMP (05:35)
Love it. Every visionary needs an integrator, right? That’s great. Yeah, yeah, that’s awesome. As a business owner, we have way too many ideas, and we really need somebody to say yes or no or let’s table that, right? Or else we just have tons of ideas for the most part.

Jessica Harling (05:38)
Yes. It’s for you.

Mm

Thank

That’s right. That’s right. And sometimes to have no idea of like how to actually implement it, like might be so innovative that it hasn’t been done before. how do we create, how do we engineer something to make it happen? And that’s what we love to do. We like to take those ideas and then build the foundation around it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (06:16)
Yeah, yeah, awesome. So I went back and looked on my website. It looks like you were on episode 21 of ours, and we talked a lot about hiring. So today, we’re going to switch it up a little bit and talk more about sales and lead handling, that kind of stuff, so that when the phone rings, what do you do, right? So let’s talk about that. When a lead comes in, what really is the first step that a business should take to ensure

Jessica Harling (06:38)
you

Will Hanke – WTMP (06:44)
that it’s managed effectively and obviously moves towards a sale.

Jessica Harling (06:49)
Yeah, you know, this may sound really simple, but you have to engage in some exciting, passionate, bubbly way, whether they are walking into your showroom or they’re calling you. It is so amazing. I’ve walked into so many showrooms where the associate is just sitting there and they don’t even say hi when you walk in or they don’t even look up. And so my rule of thumb always in managing a showroom was

someone walks in the door, you stand up and you go greet them. And if they don’t need you, you can hover and go in another area, but you need to give that big warm welcome. Thank you so much for joining, know, coming in here. Not give them five minutes and then maybe you’ll approach them.

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:33)
Yeah, I like that. I listened to a phone call today from one of our clients and the phone was answered, I’ll role play here, ABC Blinds. And that’s all they said, right? They’re like, what do you want?

Jessica Harling (07:44)
Right? Yeah, you interrupted me. Yeah.

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:51)
Yeah. So I think having something in place, like you said, be excited about it. And I guess it probably gets a little bit monotonous if you’re the one on the ladder doing the installs and the phones are ringing. I can see it being a little bit of a frustration, but there’s probably ways to handle something like

Jessica Harling (08:11)
Yeah, I mean, you gotta assume that that’s your next big…

break your big deal, you know, they could spend $100 ,000 with you. You have no idea. And I had that exact example happen when I was working in the family business. We were within a kitchen and bath showroom, very large in the Chicago area. And they in the area have this reputation for not being warm and fuzzy. You know, you don’t as a consumer walk in and like get incredible service. It’s because they’re more to the trade, but they like literally will ignore you.

you when you walk in. And there was a woman that came and strolled into my section of the showroom and I stood right up. I was even training someone. I was like, all right, perfect example. Let’s stand up and greet her. And I go over and she’s like,

Will Hanke – WTMP (08:55)
Yeah, yeah.

Jessica Harling (08:59)
not a single person. I’ve been here for an hour’s greeted me.” And I was like, Whoa, well, so sorry. Let me help you now. And she goes off. She was like, that is not service. I have so much money. I could fly to Timbuktu and back in a day. And it would be, you know, like I’d buy the store. And she went off. And I was like, well,

Will Hanke – WTMP (09:03)
You

Jessica Harling (09:23)
I can help with the draperies, I can’t help you with the kitchen and bath, I’m sorry. She’s like, no, you are gonna help me with the kitchen and bath. You’re gonna follow me around and write down the things that I want and you’re gonna hand it over to whoever needs to do anything. So she was pissed. And so we were walking around and in the kitchen and bath showroom, the manager sees me and the owner was there too. They’re like, what is Jessica doing in our neck of the woods consulting client?

Will Hanke – WTMP (09:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yes.

Jessica Harling (09:51)
So I’m waving them over behind her back and everything and they come over. She gave him peace of her mind, but she then came back the next day a little bit more calm with her husband. And he, she was like, I just want to introduce you to the woman that helped me. And it ended up being the largest sale in the company’s history, what she bought. And I was taken out to dinner because of it. Like it was a big deal, all because I said hi and I smiled.

So you gotta have that excitement. You have to have that love for what you’re doing or it’s gonna come across that way. It’s going to come across that you don’t wanna be there.

Will Hanke – WTMP (10:31)
Great story, yeah. And like you said, it turned into a huge deal. yeah, answering your phone every single time or greeting people when they come in. my gosh, it’s so huge. Yeah. All right.

Jessica Harling (10:41)
So important and to have a method for it. You know, you need to be the person that’s in the know. You’re the voice and the face of the company. So their first impression is you picking up that phone.

Will Hanke – WTMP (10:53)
That’s Yep. Yep. I’ve even heard some sales training where you get yourself excited, you smile, you know, all these different things before you make a call or something like that. So I think those things work, right? I mean, they do for me at least.

Jessica Harling (11:05)
I’m good.

Yeah, we had at the family business, put little smiley face stickers on everyone’s phone handle. So every time they went to pick it up, they could smile and remember, you know, turn it on.

Will Hanke – WTMP (11:20)
Yeah, yeah, that’s great. Well, we talked about showrooms. Let’s talk about the other side, which most window treatment companies do, I think, and that’s the in -home consultation. So what are some key strategies for doing those successfully with potential clients?

Jessica Harling (11:31)
You know what?

Yeah, I think a big part of it does come back to a process. If getting the lead coming in is part of the emotional side, then taking them through the actual appointment process should then seal the deal. And when you’re thinking about it, that customer on the other side, putting yourself in their shoes, they are gonna want to be comfortable with someone. They’re gonna want confidence in their decision.

And if you give any sort of impression through that sales appointment that you are not comfortable with what you’re selling, or you’re not confident in yourself, or you’re not explaining all of the things that could go wrong or right with this product, like if you don’t do all those things, then you’re gonna have a hard time getting that customer to buy from you. That’s why it’s gonna feel like a chase versus if you had a process in place.

and you follow that every single time, your close rate would go up, your engagement with your customers and your repeat customers are gonna go up. And so even if you don’t follow a particular method, come up with your own process for it because that is going to consistently build better results.

Will Hanke – WTMP (12:54)
Yeah, yeah, very important to have that. And of course, after, know, whether it is somebody that came into the showroom, you went to their home, maybe you didn’t close the deal there. What are some good, like best practices for following up with those leads?

Jessica Harling (13:11)
Well, follow -up is huge. It takes, and I’m sure you know these statistics, the overall concept of someone buying, it’s gonna take seven to 12 touch points to get to that purchase. And so if you, as one touch point, called and set up the appointment, that’s one. If you call and confirm the day before, that’s another touch point. So you’re on your third touch point before you get to your appointment.

And if they’re not buying that day, you’ve got at least five more to go to get into that seven to 12 range where so many people, they literally drop the ball on the followup. One of my favorite things is to shop the competition, to stay relevant, to understand what tactics are happening and such. And one of my early ones that I did shopping for, three companies came out within three days of each other. This was about 10 years ago.

not a single company ever followed up with me. Not one email, not one person put me on an email campaign that was like, here, we have this discount going on. Nothing. Three companies in the same area did nothing to follow up with me. And I told them all I was shopping around and getting other competitor quotes. I didn’t tell them no, I didn’t close the book. So,

That is the power of follow -up. You’re just gonna increase your close rate tenfold if you continue afterwards. Because your best shot on an in -home appointment is a 50 -50 chance. Yes or no? They’re moving forward. But if after the appointment you continue to follow up when your competitors aren’t, you’re increasing that chance to 65 -75.

Will Hanke – WTMP (14:58)
Yeah. And those follow ups don’t have to be like you physically doing something, right? Like in our lead boomerang system, we’ve got an automation for a lot of our clients where they follow up. Maybe it’s a, they send a video on, you know, on Shades or something, and then they send a case study. They drop a voicemail on the client’s phone. There’s other ways to do it besides you just have to pick up and call them back, right?

Jessica Harling (15:23)
That’s right, that’s right. And my favorite is automation because you can use your phone calls for that personal touch and you can also, which people don’t realize, you can make your automation sound personalized. It doesn’t have to sound like a robot wrote it, you know. So if you just take the time to think about what you would want to expect, again, going in the customer’s shoes, then yeah, automation is going to be your friend because you can set it and forget it, you know, and still get that.

Will Hanke – WTMP (15:37)
Sure. Yeah.

Jessica Harling (15:53)
result of people contacting you.

Will Hanke – WTMP (15:56)
Yeah, very, very much agree. So let’s talk about sales, right? Some things you can do with your sales team if you have a sales team or if it’s yourself doing the sales. What are some different training techniques, things like that that you can do or provide to ensure some great customer service?

Jessica Harling (16:20)
Yeah, I think in sales it’s hard to get away from role playing and I know it’s the biggest eye roll for everyone. It was something that I hated particularly, like I didn’t want to do it. But the thing about role playing is it’s just practice. And so if you have in your, you know, sales meetings some ability to do a role play, it will help.

I know that you just had LuAnn Nigara on talking about objections. And so one of my favorite role plays to do about objections is you guys know the objections. You know they’re gonna say the price is too high. You know it. You know they’re gonna say the spouse needs to talk to whoever. You know that they’re not ready. So come up with a script. Come up with a phrase that you’re gonna use every time those objections come up. But the problem is so many people go,

what a surprise. They don’t like the cost of it. Shocker. Okay, well how are you gonna overcome that? You have time to practice. You have time to think about it. So just put together a script, try that role play, and then when it happens on the appointment, you’re gonna be so calm, cool, collected that they’re gonna feel that from you and go, man, these people got it. They had it answered for every question.

Will Hanke – WTMP (17:16)
you

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I I’m in a program that helps with things like sales. And one of the things they do is the role play. And I’m the same way I used to be like, God, you I’m not ready, you know, but the the guy that was running it was successful, multimillion dollar business. Right. And he would say, OK, let’s just role play this ring ring. And you’re like, hello. You know, but it is ultimately even if no matter how bad

Jessica Harling (18:04)
Alright.

Will Hanke – WTMP (18:09)
you do going through the role play, you’re still going to learn something from it because most likely they’re going to give you feedback on what you did say.

Jessica Harling (18:15)
Yeah, and so many times people just practice in the appointment itself. And so that’s why you’re fumbling over your words. That’s why you feel like you said the wrong thing, because it’s the first time it’s coming out of your mouth ever. So don’t let it be the first time. Even if you’re practicing in front of the mirror by yourself and no one has to see you, but you’ve got to practice it out loud. Maybe it’s near car drive to the next appointment. You have to talk it out loud.

Will Hanke – WTMP (18:43)
Yeah, yeah, I even had a I had purchased at one point some flashcards of sales objections, right? Okay, customer says price is too high and you flip it over and you know, there’s the answer or what you should probably respond. I can see that being very helpful. You know, like you said, list down the objections, you know, you’re already going to get and then have some sort of at least maybe not pre -programmed answer, but have something in mind of what to say, right?

Jessica Harling (18:49)
Mm. Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

Will Hanke – WTMP (19:14)
Be a little bit prepared at least, right?

Jessica Harling (19:16)
You’re doing it every day. Again, it’s not a surprise.

Will Hanke – WTMP (19:21)
Yeah, yeah. So another thing that we did recently was we had Sandra VanSickel on and we talked a lot about work rooms. She was fantastic. So tell me about best practices around creating and maintaining relationships with work rooms.

Jessica Harling (19:32)
huh.

Yeah, well, any sort of vendor relationship, you need to treat that as sacred as your customer relationship, especially a workroom that is getting you the goods that you’re selling. And so to help maintain and develop some of those relationships, I would first start by getting involved in the design industry to like find those workrooms that you can work with. Maybe you’ve always used the same one, but…

you can search out others for backup when the one is too busy. So to maintain those relationships, a big part of it is giving and taking and communication. If you send them work, well then make sure your work orders are pristine for them. And they are responsive to any questions that you have or they have for you about your work. That’s gonna help build those relationships.

Again, it goes back to process. We want to make sure to a streamlined process in between that communication, like maybe you meet biweekly and you go through what open projects you have, or maybe on a quarterly basis, you review any errors that came through for the workroom. So all of those things can help enhance the relationship if you have a solid process and keep those communication lines open.

Will Hanke – WTMP (21:04)
Right. And working backwards to the sales side of things, letting your sales team know, you know, the at least the top level things about the workroom, what their turnaround time is, that kind of stuff, maybe giving them a tour or something like that so that they can talk about it in a very positive way.

Jessica Harling (21:23)
Yeah, that’s a great point because I remember when I had a sales team go to the workroom and they could actually see the work being done. Their level of respect and their level of excitement came out when they were talking about it with people. They lit up because they’re like, wow, the work that we were able to see. And they do it by their hands. You know, that’s what’s unbelievable. They’re literally crafting this stuff by hand versus a big manufacturer doing it at a factory. So.

You know, when you think about that, really helps enhance the value of what you’re selling to your customers.

Will Hanke – WTMP (21:57)
Yeah, yeah, very much so. It always really helps open their eyes, I think, to to what’s going on behind the scenes. Right.

Jessica Harling (22:04)
Yeah, absolutely. And even to develop a relationship with the upholsterers, with the seamstresses, to have them understand who they’re working for or towards with their client projects. I know working with workrooms that they just love to see the end picture. Sometimes they don’t get to see it. Once it’s out of their hands and the designer takes it and installs it, it doesn’t get back to them the beauty of their work. So just simply by…

sharing photos after installation will help enhance that relationship.

Will Hanke – WTMP (22:37)
wow. Great tip. I love that. That’s a great idea. So let’s talk about that leveraging technology. Right. So we’ve got people in workrooms that are doing physical work, but there is a way to kind of, you know, move your business in a way of technology, such as sharing on Instagram or sharing with the workroom. So what role does technology play in in our world that that you see on a normal basis?

Jessica Harling (23:05)
Yeah, well, the workrooms that we work with on the consulting side, a lot of the work is based around CRMs that we can implement and help them manage their workflow. And for example, one of the big ones that we’ll utilize can have the work order all pulled up. You can quote in the same module, you know, and…

have some of those efficiencies to get the pricing right because that’s a big pain point for the workrooms is take so much time to quote, take so much time to get those over for an interior designer that may not even be doing the project. So by utilizing those sorts of platforms, you can save yourself time. You can also save yourself from redoing that estimate a bunch of times. Like if you’re doing it manually.

and it’s not spitting it out from a computer system, then it’s that continuous time to redo your work. And gosh, who wants to do your work all over again? So it’s a lot of time saving for sure, which then goes into cost, because you can then spend time selling or connecting or project managing whatever your role is.

Will Hanke – WTMP (24:08)
Yeah.

Right. Right. And I know you mentioned automations. Our lead boomerang system, you know, it’s based on a lot of automations of things such as touch points. Right. You mentioned touch points as soon as somebody signs up, maybe send them a 24 hour notice that you’re you’re going to be there tomorrow so that they’re home. You know, those kinds of things are really nice and simple to set up to.

Jessica Harling (24:41)
Yeah, and I love those because again, like people are all about the now, the immediacy of everything. And with custom, that’s hard, right? There’s four 12 week turnaround times on some products. And so to have them wait after they were all excited and they purchased is such a bummer. But if you can utilize all of those automations and those checkpoints in between with the customer,

You keep them engaged as you go and it doesn’t get this huge roller coaster of emotions because you just went radio silent on them.

Will Hanke – WTMP (25:18)
Yeah, I guess in a perfect world, a workroom that also engaged in some technology would be cool. Like, you know, they take pictures of your stuff halfway through, or here’s Jane working on your draperies, that kind of stuff. That’d be pretty neat, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just getting somebody to actually do it, right?

Jessica Harling (25:32)
Love that. Yeah, those are great ideas.

Will Hanke – WTMP (25:39)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. So OK, after the appointment, maybe even after the install, we need to get some customer feedback, right? What are some different strategies for collecting that feedback and getting it out to the world?

Jessica Harling (25:59)
Well, I think a big part of it is you have to ask multiple times, multiple different ways. You are not just gonna get a bulk of your responses in one way. So yes, you are gonna have your installer give something to them at the end of your process that asks them for a review. Then you could have someone in the office contact them, making sure that they’re satisfied.

Asking for a review you can send an email follow -up asking for a review So it is gonna take a campaign and is gonna take multiple attempts Just like you’re gonna have to do follow -ups to close your deal. It’s no different. And so it’s just people You know, they just don’t do it right away and you don’t want to overwhelm them either for example You know if you are giving them a final closeout email and you’re like

Will Hanke – WTMP (26:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica Harling (26:53)
Here’s the final invoice. Here’s a review request. Also call us if you need anything. Like if you’re overwhelming them with too many calls to action in one email, they’re not gonna do all of them. They’re gonna do one of them at best. So you gotta be strategic with your review asking placement so you’re not getting muddled against everything else that is going around.

Will Hanke – WTMP (27:16)
Yeah, yeah, very important. We have bought a new refrigerator about a month ago from Lowe’s and the guys came in here and they put it all together and plugged it in and driving away. They couldn’t have been gone five, 10 minutes. And I got a call from somebody at Lowe’s. Hey, how did the install go? Everything, you know, any problems, anything like that? I was like, my gosh, this is crazy. Cool. You know, it was it was really impressive that that they had that kind of a system in place.

Jessica Harling (27:43)
Yeah, that is amazing when you can check in after. And I’m a big proponent of that in our processes, whether it’s someone in the office or your designer or whoever, someone has to follow up with the customer after the installer was there. Because so many times, the installer is the last impression. And the installers, a lot of times, they’re very skillfully crafted. They know what they’re doing. But they’re sometimes like doctors. They don’t have the best bedside manner.

And so if you want that as your last impression of what that brand and reputation is gonna be, maybe you can control it a little bit more if yourself as the manager, one of your sales team or someone in the office then follows up. I am always a big believer in that because then you can warm it up, know, put a fighting button to the experience.

Will Hanke – WTMP (28:33)
Right. Great point. Yeah, there’s a those guys are very smart when it comes to installing, but maybe they’re not great salespeople, right? And they then they don’t need to be. But yeah, but having that piece in place really does just overall makes a better customer experience. Yeah. So let’s talk real quick about business growth. So for our for our listeners out there,

Jessica Harling (28:44)
Yeah, exactly.

Will Hanke – WTMP (29:01)
What are some key strategies for planning and managing growth in the business and how can companies prepare for scaling? I know that’s an easy question, right?

Jessica Harling (29:11)
I think the first thing is an awareness thing before some key strategies and the awareness part of it is as you grow, your business changes and your people changes, it goes through different cycles. And oftentimes when we get approached on the consulting side and we get into the business, there’s so much regret as to like an apologies, as to like,

where they’re at in business and why they have to have a consultant to help them to the next level. And I always like to remind everyone, what got you here is your processes. You are at a place where you’re at above a million dollars. That is so difficult for businesses to do. And especially if you’re above that, two, three million, and then regretting everything that came before, no, no. We gotta rework that that mindset because…

Will Hanke – WTMP (30:04)
Right.

Jessica Harling (30:08)
Businesses do go in cycles. So you’re gonna get this pit like I call it in the million dollar to two million dollar mark then between like four and six million and then about eight nine million in order to get to your big next levels and so just know that your Processes are gonna change at those different milestones and it’s on purpose so that you can get to the next level But what you did prior to that is not bad

It’s what led you here. So we can take some of that and then just massage it so it makes sense moving forward.

Will Hanke – WTMP (30:44)
Yeah, yeah, good problem to have, I guess, right? If you’re growing and you’re not sure what to do. But it’s not unusual for everything to break when you hit certain points.

Jessica Harling (30:53)
Exactly. And so when that breakdown occurs, I would say to the next point is with strategy, start to identify it. You if you’re trying to figure out a process, just observe it. You know, before I created what I call the life, the client process, what I did is I observed over a 90 day period and I watched what the file did before, you know, our technology. And so literally I would star a file.

Will Hanke – WTMP (31:19)
Yeah

Jessica Harling (31:22)
and I would watch it from every stage and who hit it and how long they had it for and why they had it for that long and I just kept watching it and we tracked it and when we got the data then we could see where the pitfalls were, know, between our steps. Why is this taking two weeks? It should take three days. How are we gonna solve that? So you can’t change a process without first looking at what you currently have.

Will Hanke – WTMP (31:34)
Yeah.

Jessica Harling (31:49)
because you might be changing something that’s working and so you have to really do a good deep dive first to figure out what is the problem and a lot of times, actually 9 times out of 10, 9 and a half times out of 10, what you think is the problem is actually the symptom. So if you don’t do enough analysis, if you don’t dive deep, then all you’re gonna be doing is fixing the face value problem and not getting to the root of it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (32:15)
Yeah, yeah. I also, I really like that you mentioned, you know, something that should take a couple hours, you know, takes a couple of weeks. I think that’s part of those businesses that are, you know, over a million where they’re starting to figure out how can we start to increase efficiency, right? And start to figure out, okay, this should take this long. Let’s watch a flag if there’s, you know, more than 10 % variant and something like that. Those things are really important to continue to grow as well.

Jessica Harling (32:44)
Yeah, and you touch on a good point because I was talking to a client about this today. He is in a larger business that has four to six turnaround times, but his dad who just he bought out his dad is used to like two, three week turnaround times because he was the only person doing it. So the day it came in was the day it went out or the day he sold it was the day he ordered it. And that doesn’t happen in bigger.

industries or bigger companies and so that’s where process then becomes critical so we can shave it down to the two weeks or the three weeks and still have all the checkpoints but there is a difference there you’re right.

Will Hanke – WTMP (33:25)
Yeah, yeah. And then you start talking about things like cash flow, right? And how long do you want that money tied up? All kinds of stuff we could get into. But I appreciate the comments around the business growth. I think a lot of our listeners are in that scale mode, right? And looking for tips and ideas and ways to get to the next level.

Jessica Harling (33:45)
Yeah, it is so much like a puzzle. You just have to have the patience to dig into it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (33:51)
Yeah, yeah. Well, listen, Jessica, as always, I do appreciate your time. I appreciate your expertise. You’ve helped us a lot in sales and we touched a little bit on processes and stuff, which are always going to be a huge part of any business, no matter the size, right? I think they just change as time goes on. But thank you for your insights today. I do appreciate it.

Jessica Harling (34:16)
Thank you Will, it’s been pleasure.

Will Hanke – WTMP (34:18)
Yeah, no problem. So if you are listening and you like this episode or you like any of the other episodes If you haven’t checked out jessica’s previous one go back and listen to that for the hiring side of things She’s got some great tips in there as well. Make sure to subscribe to our podcast. We’d love to have you alerted when new episodes come out, which is every two weeks and once again Jessica Thank you so much for your time. I hope you have a great day Thank you

Jessica Harling (34:44)
Thanks, Will.

Transcript

Will Hanke – WTMP (00:00)
All right. Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today I have our first ever return guest and you know, when you’re, when you’re really good at what you do, you got to have them back on to pull out some more knowledge. So

I’m excited to have Jessica Harling on today. Jessica is a 4th generation window treatment specialist, founder of Behind the Design and leading expert in employee and process development for design trade organizations. Behind the Design nurtures top talent through recruiting, on -site and online training, and consults with leadership in streamlining processes that increase productivity and impact the company’s bottom line. Jessica, thank you for being on today.

Jessica Harling (00:54)
It is my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me again. I’m excited.

Will Hanke – WTMP (00:59)
Yeah, yeah, you’re pretty well known in the industry. So I’m sure a lot of people know who you are if they haven’t already heard the previous episode. But excited to have you on. For those that maybe don’t know, could you share a little bit of your background and your current role in the window treatment industry and how you help businesses succeed?

Jessica Harling (01:18)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I have a love of it that is very deep. I’m fourth generation in window treatments. So my great grandfather started business in 1936 in Chicago, and that’s where I learned the business. Got into it about 14 years ago and worked with my mom and my grandpa and opened then the consulting firm behind the design about eight years in.

and just haven’t looked back. It’s been a pleasure working with other window covering companies and interior design trades to help them with their recruiting, training, or their process development, which is my favorite part, is getting in there and uncovering what inefficiencies there are and making it more streamlined so that they can scale, they can get to those goals that they’re looking forward to.

Will Hanke – WTMP (02:14)
Yeah, I love that you grew up in the industry and you’re kind of like in it whether you wanted to be or not, right? I’m sure after school you came home or you came to the store and helped out and I also love that you found a niche inside of that. You didn’t just turn into another sales, into your salesperson like maybe your parents did that kind of stuff. I love that you kind of found your own path.

Jessica Harling (02:39)
Yeah, I really, I loved it. And the funny part is I didn’t know what my parents did for the longest time, my mom, my grandpa. I mean, they knew they were in design and I knew that every year when we had a garage sale, we’d be selling a lot of fabric and we had bolts and bolts of it in their garage. But before I got into the industry, I really didn’t know anything about it and wasn’t that kid that was going into the shop and stuff. So I learned everything from

Will Hanke – WTMP (02:48)
You

Okay.

Jessica Harling (03:08)
the incredible reps in this industry and of course the knowledge that my family brought to it. But that’s, you know, all been generated from working in the industry.

Will Hanke – WTMP (03:19)
Right, right. So tell me who your target market is for behind behind the design.

Jessica Harling (03:25)
Yeah, well we certainly love window covering companies still. So we work with a lot of them, but I’ve tried to expand it to the interior design trades. So we work with whole handful of interior designers, flooring, paint companies, anything that’s gonna beautify a home or even work with commercial companies. But usually our clients are starting to hit over that million dollar mark. They might be approaching two million.

and we help them get and scale to that $10 million mark or wherever their goal is towards that.

Will Hanke – WTMP (03:55)
Okay.

Okay, that’s a great niche. They have enough revenue to make changes, get things done. And also at a million, you’re probably to the point where you kind of have to get your SOPs in place. In a lot of places, they probably haven’t done that. And somehow they’re still selling a million dollars a year, which is insane.

Jessica Harling (04:10)
Yes.

Yep.

Yeah, absolutely. And it’s just so fun working with those business owners and teams. You we’re not just working with the owner. So everyone is on the same page with those processes because they’re the ones executing on it. So they need to get behind it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (04:31)
Yeah.

Right, right, very good. So how do you position yourself in the eyes of your customers?

Jessica Harling (04:41)
Yeah, I’m big on business development and one of the things that even, you my clients have commented on is that I have friends everywhere. And so part of working with Behind the Design is a holistic view of everything in their business. mean, literally we’ve helped with restructures where they thought they were going out of business and they had half a million in debt and we flipped it all around, got them profitable, put structures in place, hired a bunch of people,

them all. So whatever the problem is, we’re there to tackle it. And I know you’re big fan of Traction by Gina Wickman. It’s one of my favorite books. And so for anyone that loves that too, we are the integrators. That’s what we do. We take your ideas, your vision, and we come up with a plan and a pathway that makes sense for everyone in the company and how to execute it. And then we help you do that.

Will Hanke – WTMP (05:35)
Love it. Every visionary needs an integrator, right? That’s great. Yeah, yeah, that’s awesome. As a business owner, we have way too many ideas, and we really need somebody to say yes or no or let’s table that, right? Or else we just have tons of ideas for the most part.

Jessica Harling (05:38)
Yes. It’s for you.

Mm

Thank

That’s right. That’s right. And sometimes to have no idea of like how to actually implement it, like might be so innovative that it hasn’t been done before. how do we create, how do we engineer something to make it happen? And that’s what we love to do. We like to take those ideas and then build the foundation around it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (06:16)
Yeah, yeah, awesome. So I went back and looked on my website. It looks like you were on episode 21 of ours, and we talked a lot about hiring. So today, we’re going to switch it up a little bit and talk more about sales and lead handling, that kind of stuff, so that when the phone rings, what do you do, right? So let’s talk about that. When a lead comes in, what really is the first step that a business should take to ensure

Jessica Harling (06:38)
you

Will Hanke – WTMP (06:44)
that it’s managed effectively and obviously moves towards a sale.

Jessica Harling (06:49)
Yeah, you know, this may sound really simple, but you have to engage in some exciting, passionate, bubbly way, whether they are walking into your showroom or they’re calling you. It is so amazing. I’ve walked into so many showrooms where the associate is just sitting there and they don’t even say hi when you walk in or they don’t even look up. And so my rule of thumb always in managing a showroom was

someone walks in the door, you stand up and you go greet them. And if they don’t need you, you can hover and go in another area, but you need to give that big warm welcome. Thank you so much for joining, know, coming in here. Not give them five minutes and then maybe you’ll approach them.

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:33)
Yeah, I like that. I listened to a phone call today from one of our clients and the phone was answered, I’ll role play here, ABC Blinds. And that’s all they said, right? They’re like, what do you want?

Jessica Harling (07:44)
Right? Yeah, you interrupted me. Yeah.

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:51)
Yeah. So I think having something in place, like you said, be excited about it. And I guess it probably gets a little bit monotonous if you’re the one on the ladder doing the installs and the phones are ringing. I can see it being a little bit of a frustration, but there’s probably ways to handle something like

Jessica Harling (08:11)
Yeah, I mean, you gotta assume that that’s your next big…

break your big deal, you know, they could spend $100 ,000 with you. You have no idea. And I had that exact example happen when I was working in the family business. We were within a kitchen and bath showroom, very large in the Chicago area. And they in the area have this reputation for not being warm and fuzzy. You know, you don’t as a consumer walk in and like get incredible service. It’s because they’re more to the trade, but they like literally will ignore you.

you when you walk in. And there was a woman that came and strolled into my section of the showroom and I stood right up. I was even training someone. I was like, all right, perfect example. Let’s stand up and greet her. And I go over and she’s like,

Will Hanke – WTMP (08:55)
Yeah, yeah.

Jessica Harling (08:59)
not a single person. I’ve been here for an hour’s greeted me.” And I was like, Whoa, well, so sorry. Let me help you now. And she goes off. She was like, that is not service. I have so much money. I could fly to Timbuktu and back in a day. And it would be, you know, like I’d buy the store. And she went off. And I was like, well,

Will Hanke – WTMP (09:03)
You

Jessica Harling (09:23)
I can help with the draperies, I can’t help you with the kitchen and bath, I’m sorry. She’s like, no, you are gonna help me with the kitchen and bath. You’re gonna follow me around and write down the things that I want and you’re gonna hand it over to whoever needs to do anything. So she was pissed. And so we were walking around and in the kitchen and bath showroom, the manager sees me and the owner was there too. They’re like, what is Jessica doing in our neck of the woods consulting client?

Will Hanke – WTMP (09:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yes.

Jessica Harling (09:51)
So I’m waving them over behind her back and everything and they come over. She gave him peace of her mind, but she then came back the next day a little bit more calm with her husband. And he, she was like, I just want to introduce you to the woman that helped me. And it ended up being the largest sale in the company’s history, what she bought. And I was taken out to dinner because of it. Like it was a big deal, all because I said hi and I smiled.

So you gotta have that excitement. You have to have that love for what you’re doing or it’s gonna come across that way. It’s going to come across that you don’t wanna be there.

Will Hanke – WTMP (10:31)
Great story, yeah. And like you said, it turned into a huge deal. yeah, answering your phone every single time or greeting people when they come in. my gosh, it’s so huge. Yeah. All right.

Jessica Harling (10:41)
So important and to have a method for it. You know, you need to be the person that’s in the know. You’re the voice and the face of the company. So their first impression is you picking up that phone.

Will Hanke – WTMP (10:53)
That’s Yep. Yep. I’ve even heard some sales training where you get yourself excited, you smile, you know, all these different things before you make a call or something like that. So I think those things work, right? I mean, they do for me at least.

Jessica Harling (11:05)
I’m good.

Yeah, we had at the family business, put little smiley face stickers on everyone’s phone handle. So every time they went to pick it up, they could smile and remember, you know, turn it on.

Will Hanke – WTMP (11:20)
Yeah, yeah, that’s great. Well, we talked about showrooms. Let’s talk about the other side, which most window treatment companies do, I think, and that’s the in -home consultation. So what are some key strategies for doing those successfully with potential clients?

Jessica Harling (11:31)
You know what?

Yeah, I think a big part of it does come back to a process. If getting the lead coming in is part of the emotional side, then taking them through the actual appointment process should then seal the deal. And when you’re thinking about it, that customer on the other side, putting yourself in their shoes, they are gonna want to be comfortable with someone. They’re gonna want confidence in their decision.

And if you give any sort of impression through that sales appointment that you are not comfortable with what you’re selling, or you’re not confident in yourself, or you’re not explaining all of the things that could go wrong or right with this product, like if you don’t do all those things, then you’re gonna have a hard time getting that customer to buy from you. That’s why it’s gonna feel like a chase versus if you had a process in place.

and you follow that every single time, your close rate would go up, your engagement with your customers and your repeat customers are gonna go up. And so even if you don’t follow a particular method, come up with your own process for it because that is going to consistently build better results.

Will Hanke – WTMP (12:54)
Yeah, yeah, very important to have that. And of course, after, know, whether it is somebody that came into the showroom, you went to their home, maybe you didn’t close the deal there. What are some good, like best practices for following up with those leads?

Jessica Harling (13:11)
Well, follow -up is huge. It takes, and I’m sure you know these statistics, the overall concept of someone buying, it’s gonna take seven to 12 touch points to get to that purchase. And so if you, as one touch point, called and set up the appointment, that’s one. If you call and confirm the day before, that’s another touch point. So you’re on your third touch point before you get to your appointment.

And if they’re not buying that day, you’ve got at least five more to go to get into that seven to 12 range where so many people, they literally drop the ball on the followup. One of my favorite things is to shop the competition, to stay relevant, to understand what tactics are happening and such. And one of my early ones that I did shopping for, three companies came out within three days of each other. This was about 10 years ago.

not a single company ever followed up with me. Not one email, not one person put me on an email campaign that was like, here, we have this discount going on. Nothing. Three companies in the same area did nothing to follow up with me. And I told them all I was shopping around and getting other competitor quotes. I didn’t tell them no, I didn’t close the book. So,

That is the power of follow -up. You’re just gonna increase your close rate tenfold if you continue afterwards. Because your best shot on an in -home appointment is a 50 -50 chance. Yes or no? They’re moving forward. But if after the appointment you continue to follow up when your competitors aren’t, you’re increasing that chance to 65 -75.

Will Hanke – WTMP (14:58)
Yeah. And those follow ups don’t have to be like you physically doing something, right? Like in our lead boomerang system, we’ve got an automation for a lot of our clients where they follow up. Maybe it’s a, they send a video on, you know, on Shades or something, and then they send a case study. They drop a voicemail on the client’s phone. There’s other ways to do it besides you just have to pick up and call them back, right?

Jessica Harling (15:23)
That’s right, that’s right. And my favorite is automation because you can use your phone calls for that personal touch and you can also, which people don’t realize, you can make your automation sound personalized. It doesn’t have to sound like a robot wrote it, you know. So if you just take the time to think about what you would want to expect, again, going in the customer’s shoes, then yeah, automation is going to be your friend because you can set it and forget it, you know, and still get that.

Will Hanke – WTMP (15:37)
Sure. Yeah.

Jessica Harling (15:53)
result of people contacting you.

Will Hanke – WTMP (15:56)
Yeah, very, very much agree. So let’s talk about sales, right? Some things you can do with your sales team if you have a sales team or if it’s yourself doing the sales. What are some different training techniques, things like that that you can do or provide to ensure some great customer service?

Jessica Harling (16:20)
Yeah, I think in sales it’s hard to get away from role playing and I know it’s the biggest eye roll for everyone. It was something that I hated particularly, like I didn’t want to do it. But the thing about role playing is it’s just practice. And so if you have in your, you know, sales meetings some ability to do a role play, it will help.

I know that you just had LuAnn Nigara on talking about objections. And so one of my favorite role plays to do about objections is you guys know the objections. You know they’re gonna say the price is too high. You know it. You know they’re gonna say the spouse needs to talk to whoever. You know that they’re not ready. So come up with a script. Come up with a phrase that you’re gonna use every time those objections come up. But the problem is so many people go,

what a surprise. They don’t like the cost of it. Shocker. Okay, well how are you gonna overcome that? You have time to practice. You have time to think about it. So just put together a script, try that role play, and then when it happens on the appointment, you’re gonna be so calm, cool, collected that they’re gonna feel that from you and go, man, these people got it. They had it answered for every question.

Will Hanke – WTMP (17:16)
you

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I I’m in a program that helps with things like sales. And one of the things they do is the role play. And I’m the same way I used to be like, God, you I’m not ready, you know, but the the guy that was running it was successful, multimillion dollar business. Right. And he would say, OK, let’s just role play this ring ring. And you’re like, hello. You know, but it is ultimately even if no matter how bad

Jessica Harling (18:04)
Alright.

Will Hanke – WTMP (18:09)
you do going through the role play, you’re still going to learn something from it because most likely they’re going to give you feedback on what you did say.

Jessica Harling (18:15)
Yeah, and so many times people just practice in the appointment itself. And so that’s why you’re fumbling over your words. That’s why you feel like you said the wrong thing, because it’s the first time it’s coming out of your mouth ever. So don’t let it be the first time. Even if you’re practicing in front of the mirror by yourself and no one has to see you, but you’ve got to practice it out loud. Maybe it’s near car drive to the next appointment. You have to talk it out loud.

Will Hanke – WTMP (18:43)
Yeah, yeah, I even had a I had purchased at one point some flashcards of sales objections, right? Okay, customer says price is too high and you flip it over and you know, there’s the answer or what you should probably respond. I can see that being very helpful. You know, like you said, list down the objections, you know, you’re already going to get and then have some sort of at least maybe not pre -programmed answer, but have something in mind of what to say, right?

Jessica Harling (18:49)
Mm. Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

Will Hanke – WTMP (19:14)
Be a little bit prepared at least, right?

Jessica Harling (19:16)
You’re doing it every day. Again, it’s not a surprise.

Will Hanke – WTMP (19:21)
Yeah, yeah. So another thing that we did recently was we had Sandra VanSickel on and we talked a lot about work rooms. She was fantastic. So tell me about best practices around creating and maintaining relationships with work rooms.

Jessica Harling (19:32)
huh.

Yeah, well, any sort of vendor relationship, you need to treat that as sacred as your customer relationship, especially a workroom that is getting you the goods that you’re selling. And so to help maintain and develop some of those relationships, I would first start by getting involved in the design industry to like find those workrooms that you can work with. Maybe you’ve always used the same one, but…

you can search out others for backup when the one is too busy. So to maintain those relationships, a big part of it is giving and taking and communication. If you send them work, well then make sure your work orders are pristine for them. And they are responsive to any questions that you have or they have for you about your work. That’s gonna help build those relationships.

Again, it goes back to process. We want to make sure to a streamlined process in between that communication, like maybe you meet biweekly and you go through what open projects you have, or maybe on a quarterly basis, you review any errors that came through for the workroom. So all of those things can help enhance the relationship if you have a solid process and keep those communication lines open.

Will Hanke – WTMP (21:04)
Right. And working backwards to the sales side of things, letting your sales team know, you know, the at least the top level things about the workroom, what their turnaround time is, that kind of stuff, maybe giving them a tour or something like that so that they can talk about it in a very positive way.

Jessica Harling (21:23)
Yeah, that’s a great point because I remember when I had a sales team go to the workroom and they could actually see the work being done. Their level of respect and their level of excitement came out when they were talking about it with people. They lit up because they’re like, wow, the work that we were able to see. And they do it by their hands. You know, that’s what’s unbelievable. They’re literally crafting this stuff by hand versus a big manufacturer doing it at a factory. So.

You know, when you think about that, really helps enhance the value of what you’re selling to your customers.

Will Hanke – WTMP (21:57)
Yeah, yeah, very much so. It always really helps open their eyes, I think, to to what’s going on behind the scenes. Right.

Jessica Harling (22:04)
Yeah, absolutely. And even to develop a relationship with the upholsterers, with the seamstresses, to have them understand who they’re working for or towards with their client projects. I know working with workrooms that they just love to see the end picture. Sometimes they don’t get to see it. Once it’s out of their hands and the designer takes it and installs it, it doesn’t get back to them the beauty of their work. So just simply by…

sharing photos after installation will help enhance that relationship.

Will Hanke – WTMP (22:37)
wow. Great tip. I love that. That’s a great idea. So let’s talk about that leveraging technology. Right. So we’ve got people in workrooms that are doing physical work, but there is a way to kind of, you know, move your business in a way of technology, such as sharing on Instagram or sharing with the workroom. So what role does technology play in in our world that that you see on a normal basis?

Jessica Harling (23:05)
Yeah, well, the workrooms that we work with on the consulting side, a lot of the work is based around CRMs that we can implement and help them manage their workflow. And for example, one of the big ones that we’ll utilize can have the work order all pulled up. You can quote in the same module, you know, and…

have some of those efficiencies to get the pricing right because that’s a big pain point for the workrooms is take so much time to quote, take so much time to get those over for an interior designer that may not even be doing the project. So by utilizing those sorts of platforms, you can save yourself time. You can also save yourself from redoing that estimate a bunch of times. Like if you’re doing it manually.

and it’s not spitting it out from a computer system, then it’s that continuous time to redo your work. And gosh, who wants to do your work all over again? So it’s a lot of time saving for sure, which then goes into cost, because you can then spend time selling or connecting or project managing whatever your role is.

Will Hanke – WTMP (24:08)
Yeah.

Right. Right. And I know you mentioned automations. Our lead boomerang system, you know, it’s based on a lot of automations of things such as touch points. Right. You mentioned touch points as soon as somebody signs up, maybe send them a 24 hour notice that you’re you’re going to be there tomorrow so that they’re home. You know, those kinds of things are really nice and simple to set up to.

Jessica Harling (24:41)
Yeah, and I love those because again, like people are all about the now, the immediacy of everything. And with custom, that’s hard, right? There’s four 12 week turnaround times on some products. And so to have them wait after they were all excited and they purchased is such a bummer. But if you can utilize all of those automations and those checkpoints in between with the customer,

You keep them engaged as you go and it doesn’t get this huge roller coaster of emotions because you just went radio silent on them.

Will Hanke – WTMP (25:18)
Yeah, I guess in a perfect world, a workroom that also engaged in some technology would be cool. Like, you know, they take pictures of your stuff halfway through, or here’s Jane working on your draperies, that kind of stuff. That’d be pretty neat, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just getting somebody to actually do it, right?

Jessica Harling (25:32)
Love that. Yeah, those are great ideas.

Will Hanke – WTMP (25:39)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. So OK, after the appointment, maybe even after the install, we need to get some customer feedback, right? What are some different strategies for collecting that feedback and getting it out to the world?

Jessica Harling (25:59)
Well, I think a big part of it is you have to ask multiple times, multiple different ways. You are not just gonna get a bulk of your responses in one way. So yes, you are gonna have your installer give something to them at the end of your process that asks them for a review. Then you could have someone in the office contact them, making sure that they’re satisfied.

Asking for a review you can send an email follow -up asking for a review So it is gonna take a campaign and is gonna take multiple attempts Just like you’re gonna have to do follow -ups to close your deal. It’s no different. And so it’s just people You know, they just don’t do it right away and you don’t want to overwhelm them either for example You know if you are giving them a final closeout email and you’re like

Will Hanke – WTMP (26:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica Harling (26:53)
Here’s the final invoice. Here’s a review request. Also call us if you need anything. Like if you’re overwhelming them with too many calls to action in one email, they’re not gonna do all of them. They’re gonna do one of them at best. So you gotta be strategic with your review asking placement so you’re not getting muddled against everything else that is going around.

Will Hanke – WTMP (27:16)
Yeah, yeah, very important. We have bought a new refrigerator about a month ago from Lowe’s and the guys came in here and they put it all together and plugged it in and driving away. They couldn’t have been gone five, 10 minutes. And I got a call from somebody at Lowe’s. Hey, how did the install go? Everything, you know, any problems, anything like that? I was like, my gosh, this is crazy. Cool. You know, it was it was really impressive that that they had that kind of a system in place.

Jessica Harling (27:43)
Yeah, that is amazing when you can check in after. And I’m a big proponent of that in our processes, whether it’s someone in the office or your designer or whoever, someone has to follow up with the customer after the installer was there. Because so many times, the installer is the last impression. And the installers, a lot of times, they’re very skillfully crafted. They know what they’re doing. But they’re sometimes like doctors. They don’t have the best bedside manner.

And so if you want that as your last impression of what that brand and reputation is gonna be, maybe you can control it a little bit more if yourself as the manager, one of your sales team or someone in the office then follows up. I am always a big believer in that because then you can warm it up, know, put a fighting button to the experience.

Will Hanke – WTMP (28:33)
Right. Great point. Yeah, there’s a those guys are very smart when it comes to installing, but maybe they’re not great salespeople, right? And they then they don’t need to be. But yeah, but having that piece in place really does just overall makes a better customer experience. Yeah. So let’s talk real quick about business growth. So for our for our listeners out there,

Jessica Harling (28:44)
Yeah, exactly.

Will Hanke – WTMP (29:01)
What are some key strategies for planning and managing growth in the business and how can companies prepare for scaling? I know that’s an easy question, right?

Jessica Harling (29:11)
I think the first thing is an awareness thing before some key strategies and the awareness part of it is as you grow, your business changes and your people changes, it goes through different cycles. And oftentimes when we get approached on the consulting side and we get into the business, there’s so much regret as to like an apologies, as to like,

where they’re at in business and why they have to have a consultant to help them to the next level. And I always like to remind everyone, what got you here is your processes. You are at a place where you’re at above a million dollars. That is so difficult for businesses to do. And especially if you’re above that, two, three million, and then regretting everything that came before, no, no. We gotta rework that that mindset because…

Will Hanke – WTMP (30:04)
Right.

Jessica Harling (30:08)
Businesses do go in cycles. So you’re gonna get this pit like I call it in the million dollar to two million dollar mark then between like four and six million and then about eight nine million in order to get to your big next levels and so just know that your Processes are gonna change at those different milestones and it’s on purpose so that you can get to the next level But what you did prior to that is not bad

It’s what led you here. So we can take some of that and then just massage it so it makes sense moving forward.

Will Hanke – WTMP (30:44)
Yeah, yeah, good problem to have, I guess, right? If you’re growing and you’re not sure what to do. But it’s not unusual for everything to break when you hit certain points.

Jessica Harling (30:53)
Exactly. And so when that breakdown occurs, I would say to the next point is with strategy, start to identify it. You if you’re trying to figure out a process, just observe it. You know, before I created what I call the life, the client process, what I did is I observed over a 90 day period and I watched what the file did before, you know, our technology. And so literally I would star a file.

Will Hanke – WTMP (31:19)
Yeah

Jessica Harling (31:22)
and I would watch it from every stage and who hit it and how long they had it for and why they had it for that long and I just kept watching it and we tracked it and when we got the data then we could see where the pitfalls were, know, between our steps. Why is this taking two weeks? It should take three days. How are we gonna solve that? So you can’t change a process without first looking at what you currently have.

Will Hanke – WTMP (31:34)
Yeah.

Jessica Harling (31:49)
because you might be changing something that’s working and so you have to really do a good deep dive first to figure out what is the problem and a lot of times, actually 9 times out of 10, 9 and a half times out of 10, what you think is the problem is actually the symptom. So if you don’t do enough analysis, if you don’t dive deep, then all you’re gonna be doing is fixing the face value problem and not getting to the root of it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (32:15)
Yeah, yeah. I also, I really like that you mentioned, you know, something that should take a couple hours, you know, takes a couple of weeks. I think that’s part of those businesses that are, you know, over a million where they’re starting to figure out how can we start to increase efficiency, right? And start to figure out, okay, this should take this long. Let’s watch a flag if there’s, you know, more than 10 % variant and something like that. Those things are really important to continue to grow as well.

Jessica Harling (32:44)
Yeah, and you touch on a good point because I was talking to a client about this today. He is in a larger business that has four to six turnaround times, but his dad who just he bought out his dad is used to like two, three week turnaround times because he was the only person doing it. So the day it came in was the day it went out or the day he sold it was the day he ordered it. And that doesn’t happen in bigger.

industries or bigger companies and so that’s where process then becomes critical so we can shave it down to the two weeks or the three weeks and still have all the checkpoints but there is a difference there you’re right.

Will Hanke – WTMP (33:25)
Yeah, yeah. And then you start talking about things like cash flow, right? And how long do you want that money tied up? All kinds of stuff we could get into. But I appreciate the comments around the business growth. I think a lot of our listeners are in that scale mode, right? And looking for tips and ideas and ways to get to the next level.

Jessica Harling (33:45)
Yeah, it is so much like a puzzle. You just have to have the patience to dig into it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (33:51)
Yeah, yeah. Well, listen, Jessica, as always, I do appreciate your time. I appreciate your expertise. You’ve helped us a lot in sales and we touched a little bit on processes and stuff, which are always going to be a huge part of any business, no matter the size, right? I think they just change as time goes on. But thank you for your insights today. I do appreciate it.

Jessica Harling (34:16)
Thank you Will, it’s been pleasure.

Will Hanke – WTMP (34:18)
Yeah, no problem. So if you are listening and you like this episode or you like any of the other episodes If you haven’t checked out jessica’s previous one go back and listen to that for the hiring side of things She’s got some great tips in there as well. Make sure to subscribe to our podcast. We’d love to have you alerted when new episodes come out, which is every two weeks and once again Jessica Thank you so much for your time. I hope you have a great day Thank you

Jessica Harling (34:44)
Thanks, Will.

Guest Profile: Michelle Williams

Michele Williams is the dynamic owner of Scarlet Thread Consulting and Metrique Solutions, specializing in empowering creative professionals in the design industry. She offers strategic business coaching and financial analytics, helping interior designers, workrooms, and window covering professionals navigate the complexities of entrepreneurship. Through Scarlet Thread Consulting, Michele provides tailored coaching to achieve financial clarity and operational efficiency. Metrique Solutions offers technology-driven software to optimize pricing strategies and enhance profitability. Michele’s work transforms businesses and inspires growth in the design community.

Key Takeaways

In this insightful podcast episode, Michelle Williams, owner of Scarlet Thread Consulting and Metric Solutions, shares her expertise on financial management for window treatment and awning businesses. Key takeaways include:

• The importance of understanding how money flows through your business.
• Implementing a profit-first approach to ensure sustainability.
• Strategies for effective budgeting and marketing spend.
• Tools and resources for better financial management.
• Preparing for and handling financial setbacks.

Understanding the Basics of Financial Management The Fundamental Principles

Michelle emphasizes the critical importance of understanding how money moves through your business. This includes:

1. Identifying primary revenue streams.
2. Understanding cash flow patterns.
3. Knowing your cost of goods and operating expenses.

She stresses that many businesses fail due to poor cash flow management, highlighting the need for a solid grasp of these fundamentals.

Implementing a Profit-First Approach

Michelle advocates for a “bottom-up” financial approach:

1. Determine desired profit after taxes.
2. Account for taxes and savings.
3. Calculate necessary operating expenses.
4. Work upwards to determine required sales.

This method ensures that profit isn’t an afterthought but a planned component of your business model.

Effective Budgeting and Marketing Strategies Creating a Marketing Budget

Michelle suggests:

• Conservative businesses: 6-8% of gross profit for maintenance.
• Growth-focused businesses: 8-20% of gross profit.
• She cautions against exceeding 20% to maintain overall financial health.

Measuring Marketing ROI

To effectively measure marketing ROI:

1. Set clear expectations for each marketing activity.
2. Track relevant metrics (e.g., website clicks, lead generation).
3. Understand the cost per lead and return on investment.

Michelle emphasizes the importance of giving marketing efforts enough time to show results before making decisions.

Tools and Resources for Financial Management

Michelle recommends:

1. Accounting software (e.g., QuickBooks, FreshBooks)
2. Customer Relationship Management (CRM) systems
3. Financial dashboard tools like Metric Solutions

These tools help track financial data, manage customer information, and provide insights for decision-making.

Preparing for Financial Setbacks

To minimize and handle financial setbacks:

1. Create separate bank accounts for different business purposes.
2. Save for unexpected expenses and taxes.
3. Plan ahead for hiring and expansion costs.
4. Develop contingency plans for various scenarios.

Effective financial management is crucial for the success and sustainability of window treatment and awning businesses. By implementing these strategies and using the right tools, you can make informed decisions, optimize your marketing spend, and build a more resilient business.

Other Notes/Links:

To learn more about Michelle Williams visit:

Scarlet Thread Consulting

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

Listen to other episodes

Video

https://youtu.be/H-9mjW__YXI

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Transcript

Will Hanke – WTMP (00:00)
All right, hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers and business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today, we have a service provider who I’ve known for many years. We’ve always bumped into each other at IWCE, and I’m very happy to finally have Michelle Williams on the podcast today.

Michelle Williams is the dynamic owner of Scarlet Thread Consulting and Metric Solutions, specializing in empowering creative professionals in the design industry. She offers strategic business coaching and financial analytics, helping interior designers, workrooms, and window covering professionals navigate the complexities of entrepreneurship. Through Scarlet Thread Consulting,

Michelle provides tailored coaching to achieve financial clarity and operational efficiency. Metric Solutions offers technology -driven software to optimize pricing strategies and enhance profitability. Those sounds like things that people would be interested in. Michelle’s work transforms businesses and inspires growth in the design community. Michelle, thank you so much for being on today.

Michelle Williams (01:17)
It’s my pleasure. Thanks for having me, Will.

Will Hanke – WTMP (01:20)
Yeah, very excited to kind of jump in and learn some stuff, especially on the finance side. I think that’s always a struggle for small business owners along the different stages of growth. All right. Well, so let’s jump right in. Why don’t you tell me a little bit about your background and how you became an expert in financial management for businesses?

Michelle Williams (01:31)
Sure.

Yeah, so my background, I started in software development for Dun & Bradstreet software and built financial software. So all the way back in the day, back in the 80s when the dot com was booming and everything was moving in that direction.

Yeah, so I was building accounts, payable general ledger, purchasing inventory. I think even before I really knew what they meant in the real world, I mean, I had an idea of what they meant for sure, but I had not owned my own companies at that point. And so I knew the accounting behind them and why it worked together and how they worked together in the touch points. And then after about 10 years of that, I came home to raise my children. had a little boy that was one and a little boy that was three and a half.

And believe it or not within about, I’m going to say about a year of being home. In that year, I did all the window treatments in my own home, made them all. We had just bought a new home and my neighbors started ringing the doorbell and asking me to make window coverings for them. So I jumped right in with my good old plastic Costco table and my home sewing machine. And I started making window treatments, custom window treatments until I started figuring out, know.

Will Hanke – WTMP (02:54)
you

Michelle Williams (03:01)
the better ways to do it and the right ways to do it. And then of course I’m in the homes and they’re asking me to sell them blind shade shutters and I’m gonna say yes. If I’m already at the window, I’m gonna treat the window. And so long story short, I found myself in a position of not making the money that I wanted or needed to make because I was so excited about the doing that I wasn’t paying attention to the marketing, to the pricing, to the…

you know, the nuance of running the business. was, if you’ve ever read the book, E. Mithre Visited, I’m sure you have, I was very much the technician who built the business and was staying the technician. And I had not looked at the management, the entrepreneurial, you know, the visionary. I had not even looked at those things. I just found myself in the doing of the business. And in that doing, I wasn’t making the money that I needed to make. And so long story short, my husband said to me on a tear -filled call,

that said we owe money so that I can work for rich people. He said, you know what you’re doing. Like you know the pieces is you’re just not looking at your business the way that you looked at the million dollar budgets that you rent. I mean, I build a project accounting system. I was the development manager. I’m building a two and a half year project accounting system. So it wasn’t that I didn’t understand it. I wasn’t applying it. And it’s interesting, Will, I hear that a lot from people that actually have business degrees or finance degrees or even marketing degrees.

Will Hanke – WTMP (04:00)
You

Thank

Michelle Williams (04:26)
There’s one thing about learning it in school and even doing it for a large corporation, it’s a different mindset to come back and do it on at that point what was really a micro business for me. And so that kind of led me down the path of looking at where am I acting like a hobbyist? Where am I acting like a business owner? Where do I need to shift some of the things that I’m doing? Where do I need to gather control?

If I’m going to do this, I was making six figures. I’m going to make the money or I’m going to go back to work. Like this doesn’t make any sense to me. And so to make a long story even shorter, I learned how to do it. I started putting in best practices, taking everything that I learned on a macro, moving it to a micro. And then I started teaching it and sharing it with other people because once you have that aha, you can’t hold it back. can’t, I was watching other professionals who were

super smart and super gifted and they weren’t making the money and I was like, well, let me tell you what to look, let me tell you what to track, let me tell you how to do it. Have you considered this? Have you considered that? And then over time, they started putting those things into practice and implementing those. And then I started teaching classes about it and traveling the United States to teach it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (05:43)
That’s awesome. I think that story resonates with a lot of our listeners, you know, that you did it yourself and suddenly you found yourself doing it for others. And maybe there’s a business here, right?

Michelle Williams (05:54)
Right. And you know, we want to serve our clients well. I mean, we’re all in business, hopefully, to serve our clients well. And in that serving, sometimes what I found was we weren’t serving our own business as well. And I use the term often fair and reasonable. And so to be fair and reasonable to the client means I also have to be fair and reasonable to my business so that we’ll be there the next time they come back to do the next room or the next home or the next project. And that’s what many of us are doing.

Will Hanke – WTMP (06:23)
Yeah, yeah, that’s definitely a good part of running a business. What do they say, working in the business versus working on the business? Right, you know, that’s obviously very important. And a lot of people jump into working in the business. They’re on the ladder, you know, the phone’s ringing maybe, and they’re not able to answer the phone or, you know, those kind of things. So getting those systems in place is huge.

Michelle Williams (06:47)
Yeah, and you know, that’s exactly what I did. I was working in the business, but if we don’t work on it, then the business can’t work for us. And so just to bring you up to where I am today and what I do, I ran a window treatment company for 16 years. I was one of the managers and owners for a short period of the Custom Home Furnishings Academy in Charlotte, North Carolina, where we taught installation for window coverings. We taught sales.

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:14)
Okay.

Michelle Williams (07:15)
We taught all of that. put out a magazine and then did all those things. Education. Then we sold that company and I started my coaching and consulting company. Started my podcast, Profit is a Choice in 2018 and then started Matric Solutions in 2021, which is a compilation of all of the spreadsheets and all of the things that I had been teaching in financials.

all the way back since like 2007. So it’s one dashboard that we can use to keep up with all the things we need to run a company.

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:48)
Love it. Yeah. So who is your target audience for your business?

Michelle Williams (07:53)
Yeah, so I’ve used the term quite often interior design and I do that just because I see it as an umbrella for all of these home services that were really coming in to design areas and aspects of their home to make it better, whether it’s at the window in the full room or some, you know, small piece or part of that. So I would say that for Scarlet Thread Consulting, my ideal client would be any business within that industry. For Matric Solutions, it’s a bit broader.

It is not industry specific, it is small business specific. So I am looking at supporting businesses that are like 10 million and under in that particular sector. So it’s any small business that offers a product or service that’s in that 10 million and under range.

Will Hanke – WTMP (08:39)
Got it. And for that, they would be people that are struggling with finances, don’t understand exactly what they’re trying to accomplish and you help them get there.

Michelle Williams (08:50)
Yeah, so I would say not even just struggling, but even maybe wanting to combine a lot of financial applications. So for example, we’re not QuickBooks and we’re not taking the place of that financial management, but many business owners, when you start getting up into the hundreds of thousands and you start hiring people and you’re trying to figure out, for example, what are the KPIs that I’m managing to? Where do I give bonuses? What are the commission structures look like?

What does it cost for me to have a person or have them on site? We have all these disparate kind of spreadsheets everywhere. Matrice Solutions pulls that all together. And so in one dashboard, you’re able to look at it and see, you know, here’s the money that I have coming in, here are the KPIs that I have, here’s what I’m trying to plan for, here’s the budget I’m aiming against, here’s the plan and here’s the projections and just everything that you need.

that goes past what you would get. It’s the work that we should all be doing with the financial data, but we never have time to do it so we don’t look at it. So then we aren’t using our data, if you will, for decision making. We’re trying to make a decision from a gut feeling after taking a quick glance at a P &L, a balance sheet, or a bank account. And what we’re trying to do is say, it doesn’t just have to be a gut reaction. We can use empirical data along with a gut reaction so that you can make these decisions with more ease.

Will Hanke – WTMP (10:16)
Yeah, if they even look at the P &L or that, like you said, gut, a lot of people will just make their decisions straight from that.

Michelle Williams (10:23)
Right, but a lot of people don’t look at it, well, because they don’t even understand it. And so what we’ve done is put it into a visual format so that you can look at a pie chart and have an understanding. You can look at this is up or this is down, this is compared to this number, this is why you care. We boil a lot of it down to five anchor points, which is your total revenue.

your cost of goods, your gross profit, your expenses and your net income. Because if I can look at those five numbers and if they are following in the realm that I need them to follow, I might not even need to dig deeper. But a lot of times we’re so overwhelmed with all these black and white numbers on a page that we don’t even know what we’re looking at. And we’re trying to say, wait a minute, tell us these few things. This is what you need to look at. Here are the three numbers or the five numbers or the comparison so that you can not have to worry about

There’s even been some data that is now coming out that they’re telling some financial people, don’t send people all the P &Ls and balance sheets. They don’t know how to read them. They don’t know what they’re doing with them. So to send it just is almost like a checkbox. I wanted to make it so that we have data that is usable, but not too much. And that’s what we were seeing. And it had to be beautiful and it had to be accessible or people don’t use it because they have the data. We just don’t use the data.

Will Hanke – WTMP (11:40)
Yeah, it reminds me of I always say a joke when I’m speaking about Google Analytics a lot of business owners will log in see the pretty graphs and they’ll be like, okay It looks like something’s happening and then they’ll log out and have no idea, you know where where they are, know from that standpoint

Michelle Williams (11:59)
Right, but I bet if you took somebody and said, let me show you the three things to look at in your Google Analytics every month, look here. If these three things are in, you know, within this range or meet this number or whatever it is that you’re measuring, you’re good. Keep going. If one of threes are out. Yeah, I always left. That’s why in our cars we have the dashboard.

Will Hanke – WTMP (12:12)
Yeah. Right.

Michelle Williams (12:18)
Because I can promise you we’re not running out and checking that oil from that dipstick all the time. We’re waiting on that to tell me it’s time to check the oil. That’s why they put the little sticker in our cars, change your oil, because we’re not going to do it and remember it. We’ve got to have the flashing lights and the reminders that what we’re looking at or what we’re doing is working with us or against us. And so that’s what Matrique is. We kind of look at it as the motherboard of the financials of the company so that we know what we’re looking at.

Will Hanke – WTMP (12:46)
That’s awesome. Yeah, I love it. So how do you position yourself in the eyes of your customers?

Michelle Williams (12:51)
So we position ourselves truly is from the Madrid perspective of trying to stand in that gap between you’re running the business and you have a financial piece of software. The gap is we don’t know what to do with the data to manage the day -to -day operations. And we want to help you take this data to create a decision -making rubric, if you will, for the day -to -day. So whether it’s marketing, whether it’s HR and hiring or building out operations,

Everything we do takes money. Like that’s what’s making our businesses go round, right? And so whether it’s on an ad spend or whether it is money that we’re spending to host an event or whether it’s money that we’re spending to take a client to lunch, all of those things come back from a marketing perspective and hit the financial budgets. And so if we don’t know how to spend that money in a well thought out way, we can spend money.

I’m chasing things that don’t matter.

Will Hanke – WTMP (13:50)
Makes sense, yeah. So thank you for explaining that. So I want to, as you know, this is a marketing podcast, right? I like to always kind of have a marketing spin on things. But so I want to ask some questions and I know that you can handle everything related to the business. And of course, I’m going to ask for the marketing piece as well. So before we get started with that, let’s talk about just some financing, financial planning basics. Like what are the fundamental

financial principles that window treatment and awning business owners should understand to effectively grow their business.

Michelle Williams (14:27)
Well, I think first is always having a really solid understanding of how money moves through your business. Meaning, what is it that you’re selling? What are your primary revenue streams? What is the money that comes in over what time period? So that sets goals and budgets and that kind of thing. Knowing how that money goes out the door. Does it go out through cost of goods or cost of service and sale? Or does it go out through operating expenses?

knowing how much money it takes to run a company every month, knowing how much you’re going to spend on marketing or ads and what type of marketing. So it’s really about knowing how money comes in, how money flows out. That’s number one. I think a lot of companies, you know, I think it’s like 85 % of businesses fail because they don’t keep up with cash flow and cash management. They don’t understand the money in and out. And I see people on occasion, I won’t say it’s all the time, but they’re spending more than they make.

because they don’t truly understand the cost of running the business and then the cost of the sale. And that’s even separate, and I’m talking about the cost of the fulfilling of the sale. Forget that there’s a whole conversation about the cost of getting the lead and converting the lead. Like that’s a whole separate cost that can be wrapped up under operating expenses, right? Under the marketing and advertising section. But just knowing what we can expect out of the numbers, having money saved, knowing what…

what the turnover is in a company, whether it’s time, money, people, knowing what it costs to implement a new idea, knowing what it costs to break into a new market. I think sometimes I know I did it. I jumped in and was doing the business. I was so busy as technician that I wasn’t taking the time to understand that managerial and entrepreneurial role of what does it take to keep this going or to pay myself and to pay my people.

to compete in a market space. And so just really understanding, it sounds like a lot. I I wish I could boil it down to say, here’s two numbers you need to know, but it’s a bit deeper than that to really be able to be a lasting business.

Will Hanke – WTMP (16:36)
Yeah, think early on, even in my business, I was in the mindset of if I can spend more than I’m making to grow my business, like I’m reinvesting. And I know that’s a dumb way to think about it. But I think a lot of people think that way.

Michelle Williams (16:53)
It is, I think really coming into it with a plan, I’ll tell you what I found to be most helpful is the businesses that I talk to, we do what I call bottom up financials. And I’ve run it twice on my podcast. It’s backwards financials for the win is the title. And in that, what we start with is tell me how much money you want to make after taxes. Tell me how much we’re going to be paying in taxes. Give me your effective tax rate. Tell me how much you want to save and profit in the company. And then how much other do you need to run the company?

from a profit standpoint. Then we can work our way up to figure out what the sales need to be. In other words, having profit, I’m profit first certified, but having profit and paying ourselves shouldn’t be a if there’s any leftover. It has to be planned for. I mean, there is no big corporation that’s thinking, let’s let everybody come to work today and see if we have any leftover to pay them. We wouldn’t go work for a company like that.

Will Hanke – WTMP (17:46)
Right.

Michelle Williams (17:48)
So why we are allowing ourselves, I’m not talking that first year or so when you’re figuring it out, but why we go year after year after year, not making the money that we need to make, that’s a planning issue.

Will Hanke – WTMP (18:01)
Yeah, you’re right. should have followed that up with the fact that I read Profit First, the book, and it really changed my outlook on business, right? Because you’re basically doing it in reverse. So it’s awesome that you’re Profit First certified. I love to hear that.

Michelle Williams (18:17)
Yeah, because if we do it the other way, then we’re willing to spin, spin, spin, spin, take what’s left over. But if we say this is the profit that we need to make the business sustainable, right? Because profitability is sustainability. Here’s what I need to make it sustainable. Here’s what I need to pay myself to take care of my family so that I can keep coming to work to do this. This is what I need to plan for for retirement, because if I worked for another company, they would give that to me. Here’s what I need to do, you know, to bonus my people or to give

you know, extra benefits to my people, then you can start walking up, what does it cost to keep the business going with advertising, marketing, you know, all the things that we need to do. And then what is it that I need as gross profit? And then it will immediately tell you what the sales need to be. So then we can craft a business that works for us versus going out and just selling indiscriminately to anybody with breath and a checkbook and wondering why it doesn’t work out at the end of the day. Cause I’ve done that and it doesn’t work.

Will Hanke – WTMP (19:13)
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, let’s talk about the budgeting piece specifically for marketing since you mentioned that. How can small businesses that are in our industry manage a budget, create a plan around marketing their business?

Michelle Williams (19:19)
Okay.

So first I want to just thank you for asking that question because I have had people say to me before, Michelle, you’re so focused on financials, so I’m focused on marketing and I don’t know how they go together. And my thought is I don’t know how to break them apart. I don’t know how to pull financials and marketing apart. I don’t know how to pull financials out of anything that we’re doing in business. It has to be a part of it. And so one of the things I would say is being very clear on the type of business that we’re building.

being very clear on who our ideal client is and our ideal product and the ideal space we’re gonna sell in, because if not, any money that we spend could be spent in the wrong direction, not having a return on investment and causing a problem. So the more clear we can be on who we are and who we serve and how we serve them, the better off any money that we spend will be. The next thing is, when I mentioned kind of whether you’re doing top -down financials or bottom -up financials,

knowing kind of what that sales goal is. Because that’s going to start to give you an idea of how much money I need to spend when you start figuring out what does it cost you to get a lead or to get a client, right? But we have to kind of know how much am I trying to get and how much money do I have that I can budget towards some type of marketing activity. Another piece we need to know is what are the marketing activities that our business is involved in? Like to me, I see your website as marketing activity.

I see it as an app, if you put advertising and marketing kind of all together, it is a marketing and advertising activity. So whether it’s a build of a website or it is the SEO behind a website or whether it’s just keeping up with it to keep it up to date, that is a calling card for us. That’s that store, that online storefront that is so important and how people see us.

looking at where are our people hanging out? I always say, where are your idle clients hanging out? Because that’s where you need to go. If they’re all hanging out at Neiman Marcus, we need to get out of Walmart. Like they’re not gonna be there, right? And if they are, they don’t want you to recognize them. So they’ve got a hat and dark glasses on. So, you know, if they’re hanging out in social media, we need to be in social media. If they’re hanging out on a Google search, we need to make sure that we’re searchable. So it’s about really dialing in.

Will Hanke – WTMP (21:28)
Thanks

Michelle Williams (21:46)
to where do I need to be, how much do I need to allow the marketing and advertising to work, and where are the people hanging out. Then we can start to budget an amount that we wanna put towards that so that we can see if it’s going to work.

Will Hanke – WTMP (22:05)
I love it. Yeah. You reminded me of a book I read probably four or five years ago by a guy named Dale Furtwengler. He wrote a book called Pricing for Profit, and he used that similar comparison of are you trying to sell to Walmart? Are you trying to sell to Neiman Marcus? You know, that kind of thing. And then your pricing should fit that particular model. interesting. Really great book, by the way. So.

Michelle Williams (22:32)
Yeah, that is a good one. I’ll make one comment on that. Well, I talked to a couple people last week and it was interesting, you know, when you start to see things show up multiple times and you’re like, okay, I had two different people tell me last week that they had given invoices to other business owners. So they were like trade coming into other business owners. And then that business owner was going to show it to their client.

and both business owners gave them back their invoices and told them to go mark it up because the level of client that they had, they could not hand them that invoice. It would be considered too low and therefore not enough value and quality. So one of them was told to double, the other was told to mark it up by 30 % and resubmit before they could hand it off. And that’s important for us to really think about who are we serving.

Will Hanke – WTMP (23:05)
Yeah.

Michelle Williams (23:19)
What are the expectations that they have? And for some, if they’re not price buyers, Now, a price buyer is gonna look at the low price all day long. But if somebody is buying on value and quality, they are expecting a higher price to go with that value and quality. And if we don’t give it…

They start to think something’s wrong with what they don’t think I’ve got a bargain. They think this is a lower quality value or service that we’re getting. And so really getting into the psyche and the mindset of who we’re selling to and how we’re trying to position ourselves in the market makes a big deal.

Will Hanke – WTMP (23:51)
Yeah, yeah, very good point there. What financial metrics should businesses track to measure the ROI of their marketing efforts and how could they use that data to make better decisions?

Michelle Williams (24:06)
Well, first, I think it’s being very clear on where you’re marketing and knowing we like I’m always of the opinion and will you probably have a lot of great insight on this as well, since this is kind of like you’re like the marketing piece is really important for you. But knowing what our expectations are when we market in an area, I think quite often we go in and we’re told to market there, but we don’t have an expectation. Like if I’m putting an ad somewhere.

What is my expectation for that ad? What am I wanting it to do? Because if I don’t know, how can I really compare it against a return on the investment? Or what am I tracking? Even knowing what we’re tracking, and there can be so many marketing metrics to be tracked. And I’ll tell you, that is not my number one place to play. But I know that if we go in to do anything, we have to have an expected outcome and we measure against the expected outcome.

And so for me, if I’m trying to just get somebody to get eyes on a site, I might check how many clicks, how many times did they go to my website? Like, am I just trying to create a familiarity? Now I can start to look at what is the cost to get somebody just to become familiar with me, right? So if I’m building my full, let’s say, marketing budget, you’ll hear percentages all over the place. I’m pretty conservative, and I would like to say that if we’re looking at just maybe maintaining a business,

Now I personally look at marketing as a percentage of gross profit, not as a percentage of sales, because some things that we’re selling, can distort because we’re so product based very often. So I usually say somewhere in that 6 to 8 % is just maintaining. It’s just kind of staying where you are. In a growth model, we can see 8, 10, 12, 15, even up to 20%.

Rarely do I want marketing budgets to go over 20 % simply because 20% % if that was marketing, 10 % and under is usually rent, 30 % is people. We are eating up the money that we have very quickly to run the company and then remember back to that profit and hello pay me owner, that starts to diminish. So we really have to look at that.

Will Hanke – WTMP (26:09)
Great.

Michelle Williams (26:13)
The other thing I’ll say is I always suggest when it comes to marketing especially for smaller companies that are just getting started I always ask the question do you have more time or do you have more money? Because let’s not forget both are currencies, right? One we spend in a checkbook or a bank account one we spend on a calendar So if I’ve got somebody new to business and they’re like I’ve got more time than money I’m gonna be go glad hand go network go everywhere you can

put out flyers, put out hangers, do everything you can that is super low cost. If they come back and tell me I’ve got more money than time because we’re busy and we’re scaling and we’re building, I’m gonna be go put your money out there then, right? Go run your ads and do the things that you need to do. And then in the middle, there’s a balancing act between what you want and what you have time and money for. So even just kind of understanding the dynamic there will help you with spending money.

Will Hanke – WTMP (27:08)
Yeah, yeah, really good. When it comes to like cash flow and handling the money that you are making, what are some strategies around managing that that businesses can sustain without, you know, jeopardizing their financial health?

Michelle Williams (27:23)
Well, first off, I am a big proponent, because I am profit first, of having a separate bank account to manage some of these things. So I really encourage my clients to have what I call a cost of goods account, so that when you sell that blind shade, shutter, window treatment, sofa, I don’t care what it is you sell, the money that they paid you to cover the cost of that good,

and maybe the sales tax goes into a bank account that is separate from the operating account of the business. Therefore, those funds don’t get commingled. So that way we know that we always have the money to pay for the product or the service that that person purchased. And then the profit from that, that’s a bigger conversation on when do we recognize profit, but the profit then can flow into an account that can be allocated to cover.

the day -to -day business expenses. So when we talked about cash flow, it’s about knowing how money comes in and goes out. The other thing I would say is take a large down payment. 75 % to 100 % down payment is what I prefer. I can’t go to Home Depot and order anything special for me that they’re not going to charge me for in advance.

And so where it used to be years ago when I started back in 2000, was 50 % was very much common if you got a deposit at all. And now most designers and most window treatment specialists are 75 to 100 % because the majority of the costs come up front. know, the cost that comes at the end, which is primarily their installation, you don’t want 50 % sitting on the back of the installation if something goes wrong.

I’d rather 10 to 25 % be sitting on the heavy lifting of the install. And so really trying to figure out how to move the cash upfront so that you have more cash flow as you’re working to get the things done. Cause you’re paying office staff and to order the product or receive the product and check the product and pack the product and all these other things. And if not, you’re going to be paying for that upfront before you get the money on the backend.

Will Hanke – WTMP (29:31)
Yeah, I think people always look at me crazy when I tell them I have six bank accounts, you know, at the same bank, right? Because everything’s coming into one and it’s almost like the envelope thing, right? You you put stuff in different envelopes, same concept. Yeah.

Michelle Williams (29:38)
Yes, thanks.

That’s exactly what it’s like. So it’s interesting because in the last couple of months, I’ve spoken to people that did not hold out sales tax appropriately. So then they got hit with sales tax issues. I’ve had some that didn’t hold out federal taxes and state taxes appropriately. So then they got hit with that. I’ve had some that have been

hit with a co -mingling of funds because they didn’t take a large enough down payment or somebody didn’t pay them because of some small thing. And so then it’s created this cascading effect where they’ve had to borrow money from one place to pay it back in another. And now they’re behind that eight ball and they’re waiting on the sale of the next thing to make up for the payment of the back thing. I’ve got some where they’ve not paid off all the product and the…

The credit cards are too high. And so now there’s a credit card bill for work that’s already done and paid for that they’ve got to now pay off with profit from the next job. I’ve seen every single bit of it and probably 10 other ways to screw it all up. And so the thing is, if we’re not allocating our money appropriately, here’s another big one I’ve seen, Will. I’ve seen well -meaning coaches tell people that they should be spending 20 % of their gross profit on marketing.

And the people are out there just spending this on marketing without understanding the revenue that it is supposed to generate. And so what’s happened is they’ve now blown through all of their savings because they were told to go spend it. That’s like the equivalent of being told, here’s your estimated tax payment to the government, but not being told based on you making this amount of money and having this in that profit, right? These numbers are correlated. And so if we are only looking at the metric of

I’ve got to spend 10 % or 8%. We’ve got to look at it and how it fits into the larger puzzle and what is the revenue that is supposed to be generated by that 20 % or whatever the percentage is so that I can keep spending it. If not, we will blow through any savings that we have very quickly with very little to show for it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (31:41)
Yeah. Yeah. I have a lot of conversations with business owners that’ll call because obviously we came on the radar, right? They need marketing. They realize that. part of that discovery call is, did you spend money on Google ads or Facebook ads? And I’d say I’d say 60 % of the time, maybe it’s, yeah, we tried it. It didn’t work. And and

Obviously it works, right? We do it for a lot of businesses and we do it well. And I think it does come down to, from a KPI standpoint, cost per lead. How much was each lead that you got, as you mentioned earlier? And then, did you put a dollar in and a quarter came out, or did you put a dollar in and $10 came out?

Michelle Williams (32:31)
That’s true, it’s true. But here’s the thing, first of all, we have to have an idea back to what we said earlier about what you’re measuring, and then we have to measure it. But we also have to do some testing to realize when is it working? Because sometimes we pull the plug too easy, right, or too quickly, and we haven’t given it time, or we’re doing A -B testing, or split testing, or some type of testing, and we’ve not even given that a chance to work. There is some…

Will Hanke – WTMP (32:47)
Okay.

Michelle Williams (32:56)
trial and error at the very beginning of almost any marketing that we do. I think about it like this. I used to go fishing with my dad all the time. I still love to go fishing with my dad. And one of the things that we’ve always talked about is you have to use the right bait for the right season for the fish you’re trying to catch and the water source that you’re fishing. And so what I look at marketing is a very similar exercise. You know, am I in freshwater? Am I in saltwater? What fish am I trying to catch?

Are they closer to the shore or in deeper water? Like, do they come to the top or do they go to the bottom? What are they doing? What are their activities? What foods do they eat? Well, it’s the same thing when we’re going after people. So for us to start figuring out what that is, we got to cast out a few times to see if they’re biting today, to see if they’re going to catch what we’re putting out. And if not, then we might need to adjust and try again. If we just say it doesn’t work without the adjustment or we’re just…

scattering food out there that no fish wants, then it’s not going to work. And so there, has to be a thoughtful process for marketing. I would say spending on the plan behind the marketing before you market, just like anything. really big on creating a strategy and a plan and then adding in the money. So before we start marketing, we got to have a plan and then we execute the plan. We manage and measure the plan and we allocate money to the plan.

Will Hanke – WTMP (34:23)
Yeah, yeah, very, very interesting. Thank you. When it comes to profit, right now we’ve got a business that maybe is profiting a little bit and we’re considering reinvesting some of that back into, let’s say marketing. What would be some indicators that suggest it’s the right time to do that?

Michelle Williams (34:44)
Well, first I would suggest that if the money is additional and that you’re not losing the ability to pay for other things that are absolutely necessary. Like I’m not going to take money that’s going to keep the rent paid to be able to do it. So truly profit, right? It might be, I’m going to be looking at the industry. I’m going to be looking at the economy to say what is happening right now. Does it make sense?

Will Hanke – WTMP (35:01)
Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Williams (35:12)
I would also be looking at things of am I willing to spend more money or put more money in and am I putting it into a known venture or am I putting it in so that I can go do that testing of the waters somewhere else? Like what is it that I’m really putting the money in for? And then I would also have a limit. How much am I willing to put in so that I can see if it’s going to pay off? Because at some point as the owner we can’t take so much out of our home for so long.

There’s only a small amount of time that we can do that. And it may even be, well, I’ve seen it where we just need one extra big whole house and we will be where we need. So it becomes a very limited amount of marketing to get that. But it becomes smart money to spend when you know what the cost of the lead is, you know that you’re marketing in an area that works for you, you know the messaging of what you’re saying. It becomes less risky. I’m not into taking profit and throwing it into a risky venture.

of scattering to try to hope something sticks. That’s not a good use of it. think when it’s a well thought out marketing plan, then it can be very useful. But we also talk about in Profit First, not doing so much plow back, right? Where we’re taking the money and plowing it back in. At some point, we have to make payment to the owners of the company. And many are being paid out of that additional net profit.

Will Hanke – WTMP (36:36)
Yeah, yeah, very important. So when it comes to some tools like that, we’ve obviously mentioned Profit First, definitely a book worth starting with. What are some tools and resources that you could recommend to help window treatment and awning companies better manage their financials?

Michelle Williams (36:47)
Mm

Yeah, well, one is going to be use some type of software like QuickBooks, FreshBooks, SageZero, something like that. So using an accounting software package, I think is instrumental in good financial health. I know that I’ve spoken to some companies, even million dollar companies that are still running things through Excel, and that blows me away. not that I don’t think that Excel has some good information, but I think that it’s hard to really be able to measure that and be able to

run reports in a certain way. So I would encourage those companies that maybe started with that moving to a more well thought out accounting package. The second I would say is certainly using a CRM to make sure that you can keep up with the cost of the leads and the conversion rates and kind of that detailed marketing information so that you know how to continue the spend.

And then third, would say I would use something like Matric Solutions that we built because it simply allows you to pull some of that information together to make decisions and helps you set the KPIs and the measurements to be able to manage against. Now we do not measure the marketing data. That’s what a CRM is for. But we measure the financial data that would correlate with that marketing data.

But even if nothing else just start looking at the numbers. There are numbers all over our businesses, right? Being able to look at those numbers and recognize that they’re giving us information that if we use it appropriately we can literally change the direction of our company whether it’s not just on the marketing side, know marketing starts early early on with who we are and how we present ourselves but marketing ends with how we in that job and how we

complete that installation and how we show up and what we do because that’s going to determine whether that word of mouth buzz is going to continue and whether they’re going to come back. And so really looking at the client journey all the way through and measuring their satisfaction from the beginning to the end and the lifetime value of that client, are they going to call you back again and again and again? I just really think that so often we don’t look, the numbers can be overwhelming and I don’t.

I don’t disagree with that, but even choosing and selecting a few KPIs that are going to get us closer to where we want to go and then building with a strategy will start to give you an indication of what other numbers and where to look to really be able to manage effectively.

Will Hanke – WTMP (39:26)
Yeah, yeah. And a good CRM will track, obviously, that other piece. We’ve built out, our CRM is called Lead Boomerang, and we’ve built it out specifically for the window treatment and awning industry. But you could see, like I said earlier, I put a dollar in and $10 came out. You can get that data and know that, OK, this worked. We did money mailer and it didn’t work. We did Yelp ads and we broke even. So you can get that kind of data from.

from those kinds of systems too. Yeah. So one last question, maybe not the most exciting question, but I think it’s something that comes up, and that’s financial setbacks. You mentioned a couple of businesses that maybe didn’t put some money aside to pay their federal taxes, right? How can businesses prepare and handle those unexpected financial setbacks that could really

Michelle Williams (39:57)
Exactly, exactly.

Yep.

Will Hanke – WTMP (40:23)
kind of obviously impact their marketing strategy, but just their entire business.

Michelle Williams (40:27)
Yeah, well the first I would say is to minimize the setbacks. And so what do I mean by that? The more that we are not looking or having our arms around the numbers in a company, the more we are opening up the opportunity for setbacks, right? So what that means is knowing how money comes in and out, telling every dollar where to go, creating the bank accounts, whether it’s 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, but creating bank accounts with specific uses.

and the money goes in there and it is only used for that item. Saving for the rainy day, not spending more in the business, just like in our home. If we spend more than we make, we’re going to be upside down. And the more that we don’t have money in savings and the more that we’re not saving money for these unexpected setbacks, the more we’re in trouble. The more that we can make sure that we are tax compliant.

whether that is sales tax, state tax, federal tax, self -employment tax, whatever taxes are coming our way, property taxes, making certain that we know what those implications are and that we’re covering for them. And then another I would say that gets a lot of us is saving money to hire because just walking out and hiring somebody without any money and savings to be able to have a three -month onboard ramp for that person is going to potentially cost us because

it is rare that we would hire somebody that it did not take resources from you the owner or from somebody else in the company to get them on boarded and up to speed. So I usually suggest that we’re saving three months in advance of that salary so that we don’t feel so badly when it’s they’re not hitting the ground running on day one that they’ve got a little bit of a slower ramp to that. So even just creating the strategy to think ahead. I always ask that if you’ve built a strategic plan

Give a dollar amount to every single thing on the plan and then ask where that dollar is accounted for in your budget, in your income, in your net profit, wherever it is supposed to show up, making certain that it is in there. So the more that we can acknowledge and plan for and then have kind of that contingency plan, the better off we can be to handle those setbacks.

Will Hanke – WTMP (42:41)
Yeah, yeah. I love that you said that. I always look at, you know, the money as each dollar is a little soldier that can go out and either goof off and waste your money or you can go out and do something to bring back other soldiers. Right. I don’t. Yeah. Yeah. So I love that that analogy. Well, Michelle, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate all your insights. I I I’ve admitted before.

Michelle Williams (42:56)
That’s exactly right.

Will Hanke – WTMP (43:09)
that I didn’t get into the whole finance part of my business probably until seven, eight years ago. And prior to that, I was just trying to buy groceries, you know, and just making it. And once I kind of got into the world of, okay, I need to focus and understand where my soldiers are going, right? It really, really changed my business. So I really appreciate all of your insights today.

Michelle Williams (43:35)
You’re welcome Will. Thank you for having me.

Will Hanke – WTMP (43:37)
Yeah, so if people want to learn more about Scarlet Thread or Matric, where can they go to find more information?

Michelle Williams (43:45)
Yes, so the websites are scarletthreadconsulting.com and metriquesolutions.com And I know you’ll probably put that in the show notes. It’s M-E -T -R -I -Q -U -E. And then you can find us on Instagram at scarletthreadatl and Metrique Solutions and on Facebook as well and also on LinkedIn.

Will Hanke – WTMP (43:53)
Of course. Yeah.

Awesome. So you’re all over the place. That’s great. I love to hear that. Which is a whole other conversation, right? Getting all those pieces in play as well. Yeah.

Michelle Williams (44:06)
all over the place. Yep.

It’s been years. It’s not a it’s not something that happens quickly, but I’ve got a team and it’s been years. I’ll put it that way.

Will Hanke – WTMP (44:18)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you again for your time. I really do appreciate it. If you’re a listener and you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe. We’ve got a lot more awesome experts like Michelle. And if you want to learn more, make sure to visit our show notes page to get the links to Michelle’s different platforms. And thank you again, Michelle. Hope you all have a fantastic day.

Michelle Williams (44:45)
Thank you, Will.

Will Hanke – WTMP (44:45)
Awesome. That was great.

Transcript

Will Hanke – WTMP (00:00)
All right, hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers and business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today, we have a service provider who I’ve known for many years. We’ve always bumped into each other at IWCE, and I’m very happy to finally have Michelle Williams on the podcast today.

Michelle Williams is the dynamic owner of Scarlet Thread Consulting and Metric Solutions, specializing in empowering creative professionals in the design industry. She offers strategic business coaching and financial analytics, helping interior designers, workrooms, and window covering professionals navigate the complexities of entrepreneurship. Through Scarlet Thread Consulting,

Michelle provides tailored coaching to achieve financial clarity and operational efficiency. Metric Solutions offers technology -driven software to optimize pricing strategies and enhance profitability. Those sounds like things that people would be interested in. Michelle’s work transforms businesses and inspires growth in the design community. Michelle, thank you so much for being on today.

Michelle Williams (01:17)
It’s my pleasure. Thanks for having me, Will.

Will Hanke – WTMP (01:20)
Yeah, very excited to kind of jump in and learn some stuff, especially on the finance side. I think that’s always a struggle for small business owners along the different stages of growth. All right. Well, so let’s jump right in. Why don’t you tell me a little bit about your background and how you became an expert in financial management for businesses?

Michelle Williams (01:31)
Sure.

Yeah, so my background, I started in software development for Dun & Bradstreet software and built financial software. So all the way back in the day, back in the 80s when the dot com was booming and everything was moving in that direction.

Yeah, so I was building accounts, payable general ledger, purchasing inventory. I think even before I really knew what they meant in the real world, I mean, I had an idea of what they meant for sure, but I had not owned my own companies at that point. And so I knew the accounting behind them and why it worked together and how they worked together in the touch points. And then after about 10 years of that, I came home to raise my children. had a little boy that was one and a little boy that was three and a half.

And believe it or not within about, I’m going to say about a year of being home. In that year, I did all the window treatments in my own home, made them all. We had just bought a new home and my neighbors started ringing the doorbell and asking me to make window coverings for them. So I jumped right in with my good old plastic Costco table and my home sewing machine. And I started making window treatments, custom window treatments until I started figuring out, know.

Will Hanke – WTMP (02:54)
you

Michelle Williams (03:01)
the better ways to do it and the right ways to do it. And then of course I’m in the homes and they’re asking me to sell them blind shade shutters and I’m gonna say yes. If I’m already at the window, I’m gonna treat the window. And so long story short, I found myself in a position of not making the money that I wanted or needed to make because I was so excited about the doing that I wasn’t paying attention to the marketing, to the pricing, to the…

you know, the nuance of running the business. was, if you’ve ever read the book, E. Mithre Visited, I’m sure you have, I was very much the technician who built the business and was staying the technician. And I had not looked at the management, the entrepreneurial, you know, the visionary. I had not even looked at those things. I just found myself in the doing of the business. And in that doing, I wasn’t making the money that I needed to make. And so long story short, my husband said to me on a tear -filled call,

that said we owe money so that I can work for rich people. He said, you know what you’re doing. Like you know the pieces is you’re just not looking at your business the way that you looked at the million dollar budgets that you rent. I mean, I build a project accounting system. I was the development manager. I’m building a two and a half year project accounting system. So it wasn’t that I didn’t understand it. I wasn’t applying it. And it’s interesting, Will, I hear that a lot from people that actually have business degrees or finance degrees or even marketing degrees.

Will Hanke – WTMP (04:00)
You

Thank

Michelle Williams (04:26)
There’s one thing about learning it in school and even doing it for a large corporation, it’s a different mindset to come back and do it on at that point what was really a micro business for me. And so that kind of led me down the path of looking at where am I acting like a hobbyist? Where am I acting like a business owner? Where do I need to shift some of the things that I’m doing? Where do I need to gather control?

If I’m going to do this, I was making six figures. I’m going to make the money or I’m going to go back to work. Like this doesn’t make any sense to me. And so to make a long story even shorter, I learned how to do it. I started putting in best practices, taking everything that I learned on a macro, moving it to a micro. And then I started teaching it and sharing it with other people because once you have that aha, you can’t hold it back. can’t, I was watching other professionals who were

super smart and super gifted and they weren’t making the money and I was like, well, let me tell you what to look, let me tell you what to track, let me tell you how to do it. Have you considered this? Have you considered that? And then over time, they started putting those things into practice and implementing those. And then I started teaching classes about it and traveling the United States to teach it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (05:43)
That’s awesome. I think that story resonates with a lot of our listeners, you know, that you did it yourself and suddenly you found yourself doing it for others. And maybe there’s a business here, right?

Michelle Williams (05:54)
Right. And you know, we want to serve our clients well. I mean, we’re all in business, hopefully, to serve our clients well. And in that serving, sometimes what I found was we weren’t serving our own business as well. And I use the term often fair and reasonable. And so to be fair and reasonable to the client means I also have to be fair and reasonable to my business so that we’ll be there the next time they come back to do the next room or the next home or the next project. And that’s what many of us are doing.

Will Hanke – WTMP (06:23)
Yeah, yeah, that’s definitely a good part of running a business. What do they say, working in the business versus working on the business? Right, you know, that’s obviously very important. And a lot of people jump into working in the business. They’re on the ladder, you know, the phone’s ringing maybe, and they’re not able to answer the phone or, you know, those kind of things. So getting those systems in place is huge.

Michelle Williams (06:47)
Yeah, and you know, that’s exactly what I did. I was working in the business, but if we don’t work on it, then the business can’t work for us. And so just to bring you up to where I am today and what I do, I ran a window treatment company for 16 years. I was one of the managers and owners for a short period of the Custom Home Furnishings Academy in Charlotte, North Carolina, where we taught installation for window coverings. We taught sales.

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:14)
Okay.

Michelle Williams (07:15)
We taught all of that. put out a magazine and then did all those things. Education. Then we sold that company and I started my coaching and consulting company. Started my podcast, Profit is a Choice in 2018 and then started Matric Solutions in 2021, which is a compilation of all of the spreadsheets and all of the things that I had been teaching in financials.

all the way back since like 2007. So it’s one dashboard that we can use to keep up with all the things we need to run a company.

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:48)
Love it. Yeah. So who is your target audience for your business?

Michelle Williams (07:53)
Yeah, so I’ve used the term quite often interior design and I do that just because I see it as an umbrella for all of these home services that were really coming in to design areas and aspects of their home to make it better, whether it’s at the window in the full room or some, you know, small piece or part of that. So I would say that for Scarlet Thread Consulting, my ideal client would be any business within that industry. For Matric Solutions, it’s a bit broader.

It is not industry specific, it is small business specific. So I am looking at supporting businesses that are like 10 million and under in that particular sector. So it’s any small business that offers a product or service that’s in that 10 million and under range.

Will Hanke – WTMP (08:39)
Got it. And for that, they would be people that are struggling with finances, don’t understand exactly what they’re trying to accomplish and you help them get there.

Michelle Williams (08:50)
Yeah, so I would say not even just struggling, but even maybe wanting to combine a lot of financial applications. So for example, we’re not QuickBooks and we’re not taking the place of that financial management, but many business owners, when you start getting up into the hundreds of thousands and you start hiring people and you’re trying to figure out, for example, what are the KPIs that I’m managing to? Where do I give bonuses? What are the commission structures look like?

What does it cost for me to have a person or have them on site? We have all these disparate kind of spreadsheets everywhere. Matrice Solutions pulls that all together. And so in one dashboard, you’re able to look at it and see, you know, here’s the money that I have coming in, here are the KPIs that I have, here’s what I’m trying to plan for, here’s the budget I’m aiming against, here’s the plan and here’s the projections and just everything that you need.

that goes past what you would get. It’s the work that we should all be doing with the financial data, but we never have time to do it so we don’t look at it. So then we aren’t using our data, if you will, for decision making. We’re trying to make a decision from a gut feeling after taking a quick glance at a P &L, a balance sheet, or a bank account. And what we’re trying to do is say, it doesn’t just have to be a gut reaction. We can use empirical data along with a gut reaction so that you can make these decisions with more ease.

Will Hanke – WTMP (10:16)
Yeah, if they even look at the P &L or that, like you said, gut, a lot of people will just make their decisions straight from that.

Michelle Williams (10:23)
Right, but a lot of people don’t look at it, well, because they don’t even understand it. And so what we’ve done is put it into a visual format so that you can look at a pie chart and have an understanding. You can look at this is up or this is down, this is compared to this number, this is why you care. We boil a lot of it down to five anchor points, which is your total revenue.

your cost of goods, your gross profit, your expenses and your net income. Because if I can look at those five numbers and if they are following in the realm that I need them to follow, I might not even need to dig deeper. But a lot of times we’re so overwhelmed with all these black and white numbers on a page that we don’t even know what we’re looking at. And we’re trying to say, wait a minute, tell us these few things. This is what you need to look at. Here are the three numbers or the five numbers or the comparison so that you can not have to worry about

There’s even been some data that is now coming out that they’re telling some financial people, don’t send people all the P &Ls and balance sheets. They don’t know how to read them. They don’t know what they’re doing with them. So to send it just is almost like a checkbox. I wanted to make it so that we have data that is usable, but not too much. And that’s what we were seeing. And it had to be beautiful and it had to be accessible or people don’t use it because they have the data. We just don’t use the data.

Will Hanke – WTMP (11:40)
Yeah, it reminds me of I always say a joke when I’m speaking about Google Analytics a lot of business owners will log in see the pretty graphs and they’ll be like, okay It looks like something’s happening and then they’ll log out and have no idea, you know where where they are, know from that standpoint

Michelle Williams (11:59)
Right, but I bet if you took somebody and said, let me show you the three things to look at in your Google Analytics every month, look here. If these three things are in, you know, within this range or meet this number or whatever it is that you’re measuring, you’re good. Keep going. If one of threes are out. Yeah, I always left. That’s why in our cars we have the dashboard.

Will Hanke – WTMP (12:12)
Yeah. Right.

Michelle Williams (12:18)
Because I can promise you we’re not running out and checking that oil from that dipstick all the time. We’re waiting on that to tell me it’s time to check the oil. That’s why they put the little sticker in our cars, change your oil, because we’re not going to do it and remember it. We’ve got to have the flashing lights and the reminders that what we’re looking at or what we’re doing is working with us or against us. And so that’s what Matrique is. We kind of look at it as the motherboard of the financials of the company so that we know what we’re looking at.

Will Hanke – WTMP (12:46)
That’s awesome. Yeah, I love it. So how do you position yourself in the eyes of your customers?

Michelle Williams (12:51)
So we position ourselves truly is from the Madrid perspective of trying to stand in that gap between you’re running the business and you have a financial piece of software. The gap is we don’t know what to do with the data to manage the day -to -day operations. And we want to help you take this data to create a decision -making rubric, if you will, for the day -to -day. So whether it’s marketing, whether it’s HR and hiring or building out operations,

Everything we do takes money. Like that’s what’s making our businesses go round, right? And so whether it’s on an ad spend or whether it is money that we’re spending to host an event or whether it’s money that we’re spending to take a client to lunch, all of those things come back from a marketing perspective and hit the financial budgets. And so if we don’t know how to spend that money in a well thought out way, we can spend money.

I’m chasing things that don’t matter.

Will Hanke – WTMP (13:50)
Makes sense, yeah. So thank you for explaining that. So I want to, as you know, this is a marketing podcast, right? I like to always kind of have a marketing spin on things. But so I want to ask some questions and I know that you can handle everything related to the business. And of course, I’m going to ask for the marketing piece as well. So before we get started with that, let’s talk about just some financing, financial planning basics. Like what are the fundamental

financial principles that window treatment and awning business owners should understand to effectively grow their business.

Michelle Williams (14:27)
Well, I think first is always having a really solid understanding of how money moves through your business. Meaning, what is it that you’re selling? What are your primary revenue streams? What is the money that comes in over what time period? So that sets goals and budgets and that kind of thing. Knowing how that money goes out the door. Does it go out through cost of goods or cost of service and sale? Or does it go out through operating expenses?

knowing how much money it takes to run a company every month, knowing how much you’re going to spend on marketing or ads and what type of marketing. So it’s really about knowing how money comes in, how money flows out. That’s number one. I think a lot of companies, you know, I think it’s like 85 % of businesses fail because they don’t keep up with cash flow and cash management. They don’t understand the money in and out. And I see people on occasion, I won’t say it’s all the time, but they’re spending more than they make.

because they don’t truly understand the cost of running the business and then the cost of the sale. And that’s even separate, and I’m talking about the cost of the fulfilling of the sale. Forget that there’s a whole conversation about the cost of getting the lead and converting the lead. Like that’s a whole separate cost that can be wrapped up under operating expenses, right? Under the marketing and advertising section. But just knowing what we can expect out of the numbers, having money saved, knowing what…

what the turnover is in a company, whether it’s time, money, people, knowing what it costs to implement a new idea, knowing what it costs to break into a new market. I think sometimes I know I did it. I jumped in and was doing the business. I was so busy as technician that I wasn’t taking the time to understand that managerial and entrepreneurial role of what does it take to keep this going or to pay myself and to pay my people.

to compete in a market space. And so just really understanding, it sounds like a lot. I I wish I could boil it down to say, here’s two numbers you need to know, but it’s a bit deeper than that to really be able to be a lasting business.

Will Hanke – WTMP (16:36)
Yeah, think early on, even in my business, I was in the mindset of if I can spend more than I’m making to grow my business, like I’m reinvesting. And I know that’s a dumb way to think about it. But I think a lot of people think that way.

Michelle Williams (16:53)
It is, I think really coming into it with a plan, I’ll tell you what I found to be most helpful is the businesses that I talk to, we do what I call bottom up financials. And I’ve run it twice on my podcast. It’s backwards financials for the win is the title. And in that, what we start with is tell me how much money you want to make after taxes. Tell me how much we’re going to be paying in taxes. Give me your effective tax rate. Tell me how much you want to save and profit in the company. And then how much other do you need to run the company?

from a profit standpoint. Then we can work our way up to figure out what the sales need to be. In other words, having profit, I’m profit first certified, but having profit and paying ourselves shouldn’t be a if there’s any leftover. It has to be planned for. I mean, there is no big corporation that’s thinking, let’s let everybody come to work today and see if we have any leftover to pay them. We wouldn’t go work for a company like that.

Will Hanke – WTMP (17:46)
Right.

Michelle Williams (17:48)
So why we are allowing ourselves, I’m not talking that first year or so when you’re figuring it out, but why we go year after year after year, not making the money that we need to make, that’s a planning issue.

Will Hanke – WTMP (18:01)
Yeah, you’re right. should have followed that up with the fact that I read Profit First, the book, and it really changed my outlook on business, right? Because you’re basically doing it in reverse. So it’s awesome that you’re Profit First certified. I love to hear that.

Michelle Williams (18:17)
Yeah, because if we do it the other way, then we’re willing to spin, spin, spin, spin, take what’s left over. But if we say this is the profit that we need to make the business sustainable, right? Because profitability is sustainability. Here’s what I need to make it sustainable. Here’s what I need to pay myself to take care of my family so that I can keep coming to work to do this. This is what I need to plan for for retirement, because if I worked for another company, they would give that to me. Here’s what I need to do, you know, to bonus my people or to give

you know, extra benefits to my people, then you can start walking up, what does it cost to keep the business going with advertising, marketing, you know, all the things that we need to do. And then what is it that I need as gross profit? And then it will immediately tell you what the sales need to be. So then we can craft a business that works for us versus going out and just selling indiscriminately to anybody with breath and a checkbook and wondering why it doesn’t work out at the end of the day. Cause I’ve done that and it doesn’t work.

Will Hanke – WTMP (19:13)
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, let’s talk about the budgeting piece specifically for marketing since you mentioned that. How can small businesses that are in our industry manage a budget, create a plan around marketing their business?

Michelle Williams (19:19)
Okay.

So first I want to just thank you for asking that question because I have had people say to me before, Michelle, you’re so focused on financials, so I’m focused on marketing and I don’t know how they go together. And my thought is I don’t know how to break them apart. I don’t know how to pull financials and marketing apart. I don’t know how to pull financials out of anything that we’re doing in business. It has to be a part of it. And so one of the things I would say is being very clear on the type of business that we’re building.

being very clear on who our ideal client is and our ideal product and the ideal space we’re gonna sell in, because if not, any money that we spend could be spent in the wrong direction, not having a return on investment and causing a problem. So the more clear we can be on who we are and who we serve and how we serve them, the better off any money that we spend will be. The next thing is, when I mentioned kind of whether you’re doing top -down financials or bottom -up financials,

knowing kind of what that sales goal is. Because that’s going to start to give you an idea of how much money I need to spend when you start figuring out what does it cost you to get a lead or to get a client, right? But we have to kind of know how much am I trying to get and how much money do I have that I can budget towards some type of marketing activity. Another piece we need to know is what are the marketing activities that our business is involved in? Like to me, I see your website as marketing activity.

I see it as an app, if you put advertising and marketing kind of all together, it is a marketing and advertising activity. So whether it’s a build of a website or it is the SEO behind a website or whether it’s just keeping up with it to keep it up to date, that is a calling card for us. That’s that store, that online storefront that is so important and how people see us.

looking at where are our people hanging out? I always say, where are your idle clients hanging out? Because that’s where you need to go. If they’re all hanging out at Neiman Marcus, we need to get out of Walmart. Like they’re not gonna be there, right? And if they are, they don’t want you to recognize them. So they’ve got a hat and dark glasses on. So, you know, if they’re hanging out in social media, we need to be in social media. If they’re hanging out on a Google search, we need to make sure that we’re searchable. So it’s about really dialing in.

Will Hanke – WTMP (21:28)
Thanks

Michelle Williams (21:46)
to where do I need to be, how much do I need to allow the marketing and advertising to work, and where are the people hanging out. Then we can start to budget an amount that we wanna put towards that so that we can see if it’s going to work.

Will Hanke – WTMP (22:05)
I love it. Yeah. You reminded me of a book I read probably four or five years ago by a guy named Dale Furtwengler. He wrote a book called Pricing for Profit, and he used that similar comparison of are you trying to sell to Walmart? Are you trying to sell to Neiman Marcus? You know, that kind of thing. And then your pricing should fit that particular model. interesting. Really great book, by the way. So.

Michelle Williams (22:32)
Yeah, that is a good one. I’ll make one comment on that. Well, I talked to a couple people last week and it was interesting, you know, when you start to see things show up multiple times and you’re like, okay, I had two different people tell me last week that they had given invoices to other business owners. So they were like trade coming into other business owners. And then that business owner was going to show it to their client.

and both business owners gave them back their invoices and told them to go mark it up because the level of client that they had, they could not hand them that invoice. It would be considered too low and therefore not enough value and quality. So one of them was told to double, the other was told to mark it up by 30 % and resubmit before they could hand it off. And that’s important for us to really think about who are we serving.

Will Hanke – WTMP (23:05)
Yeah.

Michelle Williams (23:19)
What are the expectations that they have? And for some, if they’re not price buyers, Now, a price buyer is gonna look at the low price all day long. But if somebody is buying on value and quality, they are expecting a higher price to go with that value and quality. And if we don’t give it…

They start to think something’s wrong with what they don’t think I’ve got a bargain. They think this is a lower quality value or service that we’re getting. And so really getting into the psyche and the mindset of who we’re selling to and how we’re trying to position ourselves in the market makes a big deal.

Will Hanke – WTMP (23:51)
Yeah, yeah, very good point there. What financial metrics should businesses track to measure the ROI of their marketing efforts and how could they use that data to make better decisions?

Michelle Williams (24:06)
Well, first, I think it’s being very clear on where you’re marketing and knowing we like I’m always of the opinion and will you probably have a lot of great insight on this as well, since this is kind of like you’re like the marketing piece is really important for you. But knowing what our expectations are when we market in an area, I think quite often we go in and we’re told to market there, but we don’t have an expectation. Like if I’m putting an ad somewhere.

What is my expectation for that ad? What am I wanting it to do? Because if I don’t know, how can I really compare it against a return on the investment? Or what am I tracking? Even knowing what we’re tracking, and there can be so many marketing metrics to be tracked. And I’ll tell you, that is not my number one place to play. But I know that if we go in to do anything, we have to have an expected outcome and we measure against the expected outcome.

And so for me, if I’m trying to just get somebody to get eyes on a site, I might check how many clicks, how many times did they go to my website? Like, am I just trying to create a familiarity? Now I can start to look at what is the cost to get somebody just to become familiar with me, right? So if I’m building my full, let’s say, marketing budget, you’ll hear percentages all over the place. I’m pretty conservative, and I would like to say that if we’re looking at just maybe maintaining a business,

Now I personally look at marketing as a percentage of gross profit, not as a percentage of sales, because some things that we’re selling, can distort because we’re so product based very often. So I usually say somewhere in that 6 to 8 % is just maintaining. It’s just kind of staying where you are. In a growth model, we can see 8, 10, 12, 15, even up to 20%.

Rarely do I want marketing budgets to go over 20 % simply because 20% % if that was marketing, 10 % and under is usually rent, 30 % is people. We are eating up the money that we have very quickly to run the company and then remember back to that profit and hello pay me owner, that starts to diminish. So we really have to look at that.

Will Hanke – WTMP (26:09)
Great.

Michelle Williams (26:13)
The other thing I’ll say is I always suggest when it comes to marketing especially for smaller companies that are just getting started I always ask the question do you have more time or do you have more money? Because let’s not forget both are currencies, right? One we spend in a checkbook or a bank account one we spend on a calendar So if I’ve got somebody new to business and they’re like I’ve got more time than money I’m gonna be go glad hand go network go everywhere you can

put out flyers, put out hangers, do everything you can that is super low cost. If they come back and tell me I’ve got more money than time because we’re busy and we’re scaling and we’re building, I’m gonna be go put your money out there then, right? Go run your ads and do the things that you need to do. And then in the middle, there’s a balancing act between what you want and what you have time and money for. So even just kind of understanding the dynamic there will help you with spending money.

Will Hanke – WTMP (27:08)
Yeah, yeah, really good. When it comes to like cash flow and handling the money that you are making, what are some strategies around managing that that businesses can sustain without, you know, jeopardizing their financial health?

Michelle Williams (27:23)
Well, first off, I am a big proponent, because I am profit first, of having a separate bank account to manage some of these things. So I really encourage my clients to have what I call a cost of goods account, so that when you sell that blind shade, shutter, window treatment, sofa, I don’t care what it is you sell, the money that they paid you to cover the cost of that good,

and maybe the sales tax goes into a bank account that is separate from the operating account of the business. Therefore, those funds don’t get commingled. So that way we know that we always have the money to pay for the product or the service that that person purchased. And then the profit from that, that’s a bigger conversation on when do we recognize profit, but the profit then can flow into an account that can be allocated to cover.

the day -to -day business expenses. So when we talked about cash flow, it’s about knowing how money comes in and goes out. The other thing I would say is take a large down payment. 75 % to 100 % down payment is what I prefer. I can’t go to Home Depot and order anything special for me that they’re not going to charge me for in advance.

And so where it used to be years ago when I started back in 2000, was 50 % was very much common if you got a deposit at all. And now most designers and most window treatment specialists are 75 to 100 % because the majority of the costs come up front. know, the cost that comes at the end, which is primarily their installation, you don’t want 50 % sitting on the back of the installation if something goes wrong.

I’d rather 10 to 25 % be sitting on the heavy lifting of the install. And so really trying to figure out how to move the cash upfront so that you have more cash flow as you’re working to get the things done. Cause you’re paying office staff and to order the product or receive the product and check the product and pack the product and all these other things. And if not, you’re going to be paying for that upfront before you get the money on the backend.

Will Hanke – WTMP (29:31)
Yeah, I think people always look at me crazy when I tell them I have six bank accounts, you know, at the same bank, right? Because everything’s coming into one and it’s almost like the envelope thing, right? You you put stuff in different envelopes, same concept. Yeah.

Michelle Williams (29:38)
Yes, thanks.

That’s exactly what it’s like. So it’s interesting because in the last couple of months, I’ve spoken to people that did not hold out sales tax appropriately. So then they got hit with sales tax issues. I’ve had some that didn’t hold out federal taxes and state taxes appropriately. So then they got hit with that. I’ve had some that have been

hit with a co -mingling of funds because they didn’t take a large enough down payment or somebody didn’t pay them because of some small thing. And so then it’s created this cascading effect where they’ve had to borrow money from one place to pay it back in another. And now they’re behind that eight ball and they’re waiting on the sale of the next thing to make up for the payment of the back thing. I’ve got some where they’ve not paid off all the product and the…

The credit cards are too high. And so now there’s a credit card bill for work that’s already done and paid for that they’ve got to now pay off with profit from the next job. I’ve seen every single bit of it and probably 10 other ways to screw it all up. And so the thing is, if we’re not allocating our money appropriately, here’s another big one I’ve seen, Will. I’ve seen well -meaning coaches tell people that they should be spending 20 % of their gross profit on marketing.

And the people are out there just spending this on marketing without understanding the revenue that it is supposed to generate. And so what’s happened is they’ve now blown through all of their savings because they were told to go spend it. That’s like the equivalent of being told, here’s your estimated tax payment to the government, but not being told based on you making this amount of money and having this in that profit, right? These numbers are correlated. And so if we are only looking at the metric of

I’ve got to spend 10 % or 8%. We’ve got to look at it and how it fits into the larger puzzle and what is the revenue that is supposed to be generated by that 20 % or whatever the percentage is so that I can keep spending it. If not, we will blow through any savings that we have very quickly with very little to show for it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (31:41)
Yeah. Yeah. I have a lot of conversations with business owners that’ll call because obviously we came on the radar, right? They need marketing. They realize that. part of that discovery call is, did you spend money on Google ads or Facebook ads? And I’d say I’d say 60 % of the time, maybe it’s, yeah, we tried it. It didn’t work. And and

Obviously it works, right? We do it for a lot of businesses and we do it well. And I think it does come down to, from a KPI standpoint, cost per lead. How much was each lead that you got, as you mentioned earlier? And then, did you put a dollar in and a quarter came out, or did you put a dollar in and $10 came out?

Michelle Williams (32:31)
That’s true, it’s true. But here’s the thing, first of all, we have to have an idea back to what we said earlier about what you’re measuring, and then we have to measure it. But we also have to do some testing to realize when is it working? Because sometimes we pull the plug too easy, right, or too quickly, and we haven’t given it time, or we’re doing A -B testing, or split testing, or some type of testing, and we’ve not even given that a chance to work. There is some…

Will Hanke – WTMP (32:47)
Okay.

Michelle Williams (32:56)
trial and error at the very beginning of almost any marketing that we do. I think about it like this. I used to go fishing with my dad all the time. I still love to go fishing with my dad. And one of the things that we’ve always talked about is you have to use the right bait for the right season for the fish you’re trying to catch and the water source that you’re fishing. And so what I look at marketing is a very similar exercise. You know, am I in freshwater? Am I in saltwater? What fish am I trying to catch?

Are they closer to the shore or in deeper water? Like, do they come to the top or do they go to the bottom? What are they doing? What are their activities? What foods do they eat? Well, it’s the same thing when we’re going after people. So for us to start figuring out what that is, we got to cast out a few times to see if they’re biting today, to see if they’re going to catch what we’re putting out. And if not, then we might need to adjust and try again. If we just say it doesn’t work without the adjustment or we’re just…

scattering food out there that no fish wants, then it’s not going to work. And so there, has to be a thoughtful process for marketing. I would say spending on the plan behind the marketing before you market, just like anything. really big on creating a strategy and a plan and then adding in the money. So before we start marketing, we got to have a plan and then we execute the plan. We manage and measure the plan and we allocate money to the plan.

Will Hanke – WTMP (34:23)
Yeah, yeah, very, very interesting. Thank you. When it comes to profit, right now we’ve got a business that maybe is profiting a little bit and we’re considering reinvesting some of that back into, let’s say marketing. What would be some indicators that suggest it’s the right time to do that?

Michelle Williams (34:44)
Well, first I would suggest that if the money is additional and that you’re not losing the ability to pay for other things that are absolutely necessary. Like I’m not going to take money that’s going to keep the rent paid to be able to do it. So truly profit, right? It might be, I’m going to be looking at the industry. I’m going to be looking at the economy to say what is happening right now. Does it make sense?

Will Hanke – WTMP (35:01)
Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Williams (35:12)
I would also be looking at things of am I willing to spend more money or put more money in and am I putting it into a known venture or am I putting it in so that I can go do that testing of the waters somewhere else? Like what is it that I’m really putting the money in for? And then I would also have a limit. How much am I willing to put in so that I can see if it’s going to pay off? Because at some point as the owner we can’t take so much out of our home for so long.

There’s only a small amount of time that we can do that. And it may even be, well, I’ve seen it where we just need one extra big whole house and we will be where we need. So it becomes a very limited amount of marketing to get that. But it becomes smart money to spend when you know what the cost of the lead is, you know that you’re marketing in an area that works for you, you know the messaging of what you’re saying. It becomes less risky. I’m not into taking profit and throwing it into a risky venture.

of scattering to try to hope something sticks. That’s not a good use of it. think when it’s a well thought out marketing plan, then it can be very useful. But we also talk about in Profit First, not doing so much plow back, right? Where we’re taking the money and plowing it back in. At some point, we have to make payment to the owners of the company. And many are being paid out of that additional net profit.

Will Hanke – WTMP (36:36)
Yeah, yeah, very important. So when it comes to some tools like that, we’ve obviously mentioned Profit First, definitely a book worth starting with. What are some tools and resources that you could recommend to help window treatment and awning companies better manage their financials?

Michelle Williams (36:47)
Mm

Yeah, well, one is going to be use some type of software like QuickBooks, FreshBooks, SageZero, something like that. So using an accounting software package, I think is instrumental in good financial health. I know that I’ve spoken to some companies, even million dollar companies that are still running things through Excel, and that blows me away. not that I don’t think that Excel has some good information, but I think that it’s hard to really be able to measure that and be able to

run reports in a certain way. So I would encourage those companies that maybe started with that moving to a more well thought out accounting package. The second I would say is certainly using a CRM to make sure that you can keep up with the cost of the leads and the conversion rates and kind of that detailed marketing information so that you know how to continue the spend.

And then third, would say I would use something like Matric Solutions that we built because it simply allows you to pull some of that information together to make decisions and helps you set the KPIs and the measurements to be able to manage against. Now we do not measure the marketing data. That’s what a CRM is for. But we measure the financial data that would correlate with that marketing data.

But even if nothing else just start looking at the numbers. There are numbers all over our businesses, right? Being able to look at those numbers and recognize that they’re giving us information that if we use it appropriately we can literally change the direction of our company whether it’s not just on the marketing side, know marketing starts early early on with who we are and how we present ourselves but marketing ends with how we in that job and how we

complete that installation and how we show up and what we do because that’s going to determine whether that word of mouth buzz is going to continue and whether they’re going to come back. And so really looking at the client journey all the way through and measuring their satisfaction from the beginning to the end and the lifetime value of that client, are they going to call you back again and again and again? I just really think that so often we don’t look, the numbers can be overwhelming and I don’t.

I don’t disagree with that, but even choosing and selecting a few KPIs that are going to get us closer to where we want to go and then building with a strategy will start to give you an indication of what other numbers and where to look to really be able to manage effectively.

Will Hanke – WTMP (39:26)
Yeah, yeah. And a good CRM will track, obviously, that other piece. We’ve built out, our CRM is called Lead Boomerang, and we’ve built it out specifically for the window treatment and awning industry. But you could see, like I said earlier, I put a dollar in and $10 came out. You can get that data and know that, OK, this worked. We did money mailer and it didn’t work. We did Yelp ads and we broke even. So you can get that kind of data from.

from those kinds of systems too. Yeah. So one last question, maybe not the most exciting question, but I think it’s something that comes up, and that’s financial setbacks. You mentioned a couple of businesses that maybe didn’t put some money aside to pay their federal taxes, right? How can businesses prepare and handle those unexpected financial setbacks that could really

Michelle Williams (39:57)
Exactly, exactly.

Yep.

Will Hanke – WTMP (40:23)
kind of obviously impact their marketing strategy, but just their entire business.

Michelle Williams (40:27)
Yeah, well the first I would say is to minimize the setbacks. And so what do I mean by that? The more that we are not looking or having our arms around the numbers in a company, the more we are opening up the opportunity for setbacks, right? So what that means is knowing how money comes in and out, telling every dollar where to go, creating the bank accounts, whether it’s 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, but creating bank accounts with specific uses.

and the money goes in there and it is only used for that item. Saving for the rainy day, not spending more in the business, just like in our home. If we spend more than we make, we’re going to be upside down. And the more that we don’t have money in savings and the more that we’re not saving money for these unexpected setbacks, the more we’re in trouble. The more that we can make sure that we are tax compliant.

whether that is sales tax, state tax, federal tax, self -employment tax, whatever taxes are coming our way, property taxes, making certain that we know what those implications are and that we’re covering for them. And then another I would say that gets a lot of us is saving money to hire because just walking out and hiring somebody without any money and savings to be able to have a three -month onboard ramp for that person is going to potentially cost us because

it is rare that we would hire somebody that it did not take resources from you the owner or from somebody else in the company to get them on boarded and up to speed. So I usually suggest that we’re saving three months in advance of that salary so that we don’t feel so badly when it’s they’re not hitting the ground running on day one that they’ve got a little bit of a slower ramp to that. So even just creating the strategy to think ahead. I always ask that if you’ve built a strategic plan

Give a dollar amount to every single thing on the plan and then ask where that dollar is accounted for in your budget, in your income, in your net profit, wherever it is supposed to show up, making certain that it is in there. So the more that we can acknowledge and plan for and then have kind of that contingency plan, the better off we can be to handle those setbacks.

Will Hanke – WTMP (42:41)
Yeah, yeah. I love that you said that. I always look at, you know, the money as each dollar is a little soldier that can go out and either goof off and waste your money or you can go out and do something to bring back other soldiers. Right. I don’t. Yeah. Yeah. So I love that that analogy. Well, Michelle, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate all your insights. I I I’ve admitted before.

Michelle Williams (42:56)
That’s exactly right.

Will Hanke – WTMP (43:09)
that I didn’t get into the whole finance part of my business probably until seven, eight years ago. And prior to that, I was just trying to buy groceries, you know, and just making it. And once I kind of got into the world of, okay, I need to focus and understand where my soldiers are going, right? It really, really changed my business. So I really appreciate all of your insights today.

Michelle Williams (43:35)
You’re welcome Will. Thank you for having me.

Will Hanke – WTMP (43:37)
Yeah, so if people want to learn more about Scarlet Thread or Matric, where can they go to find more information?

Michelle Williams (43:45)
Yes, so the websites are scarletthreadconsulting.com and metriquesolutions.com And I know you’ll probably put that in the show notes. It’s M-E -T -R -I -Q -U -E. And then you can find us on Instagram at scarletthreadatl and Metrique Solutions and on Facebook as well and also on LinkedIn.

Will Hanke – WTMP (43:53)
Of course. Yeah.

Awesome. So you’re all over the place. That’s great. I love to hear that. Which is a whole other conversation, right? Getting all those pieces in play as well. Yeah.

Michelle Williams (44:06)
all over the place. Yep.

It’s been years. It’s not a it’s not something that happens quickly, but I’ve got a team and it’s been years. I’ll put it that way.

Will Hanke – WTMP (44:18)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you again for your time. I really do appreciate it. If you’re a listener and you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe. We’ve got a lot more awesome experts like Michelle. And if you want to learn more, make sure to visit our show notes page to get the links to Michelle’s different platforms. And thank you again, Michelle. Hope you all have a fantastic day.

Michelle Williams (44:45)
Thank you, Will.

Will Hanke – WTMP (44:45)
Awesome. That was great.

Guest Profile: Georgiana Schwandt

Georgiana (Georgi) Giese Schwandt, founder of Incredible Windows, hails from central Illinois where she imbibed the values of hard work, compassion, and dedication. A former educator with 28 years of experience across four school districts, Georgi now leads her team in covering thousands of windows in the greater Madison, WI area. Her commitment to serving clients with kindness and respect remains unwavering.

Other Notes/Links:

To learn more about Georgiana Schwandt visit: https://www.incrediblewindows.com/

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

Listen to other episodes

Video

https://youtu.be/YW2v9y3cOOY

Click here to display Transcript Transcript

[0:02] Alright.
[0:02] Hello everyone.
[0:03] Welcome to another episode of marketing pains.
[0:05] My name is Will hanky.
[0:08] This is the podcast where we talked with real window treatment and Awning business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business today.
[0:18] We’re on covering success.
[0:20] This is episode 33 and I’m excited to have Georgiana Schwandt who we called Georgie with us from Madison, Wisconsin.
[0:30] She has been a client of ours for probably around I think nine or ten months now and we’re excited to have Georgie with us today.
[0:38] And let’s Jump Right In Georgie.
[0:40] How are you?
[0:41] I’m good.
[0:42] Well and you doing fantastic so excited to have you on today?
[0:47] Thank you.
[0:47] I appreciate the opportunity.
[0:48] Well, yeah.
[0:50] Well, let’s Jump Right In tell me a little bit about your business.
[0:53] It’s called incredible Windows.
[0:55] You’re in the Madison Wisconsin area.
[0:58] Tell us a little bit more.
[1:00] Well, so my story would I give him a very abbreviated version when I meet with a customer is this simply this is my retirement business.
[1:11] So I had a real job for 28 years as a high school educator and I retired relatively young in as far as Retirement term door speaking and I needed something to do and look around for about two years trying to figure that out.
[1:27] Try different things including real estate appraisal.
[1:30] I hated it took the courses got certified and I don’t like this.
[1:34] So I thought well, let’s look for something else and I went out for lunch or someone who is selling window treatments in Northern Illinois.
[1:42] And she said you had to do what I do.
[1:43] I said I think you’re right and it was about that quick.
[1:47] So that was in 2006 and here I am almost 18 years later selling window treatments on a part-time basis as I shop at home.
[1:56] I’ve never had a storefront.
[1:57] I never will and I I’m enjoy great success.
[2:03] Wow, okay, so you don’t like the storefront idea tell me more about that.
[2:09] Well, there are a couple reasons I decided that first of all, I was a high school principal in Madison for eight years managing lots and lots of people including students and staff and parents and you know legislators and being involved and I wanted a simple business model that was manageable.
[2:31] I didn’t want to have the expense of the storefront and I have no regrets.
[2:36] I know it took me a while to get started.
[2:39] Of course, it wasn’t easy, but I feel like I’ve done it and I was still learning and I still when I do grow.
[2:48] Good good.
[2:49] So your business model is get the lead go to the home pitch the pitch the installer.
[2:57] Whatever the product do you get the payment right then or do you go back and do a proposal and then of course do the install later?
[3:08] Well, it works in different ways.
[3:11] Ideally what actually the ideal situation happened yesterday where indeed I meant with a customer.
[3:19] She did a remodel over 30 year old home and was when a new window treatments.
[3:24] I we went in and talked about her needs and what she wanted and if it’s a she’s doing it in two parts.
[3:30] So we did the bedrooms and baths first and if it’s a relatively small project meaning 10 12 15 blinds, I can do a quote pretty easily in the home and then I can present it to her and discuss it and I said, are you ready to move forward you want to think about?
[3:48] Thought she said I’ll get my credit card.
[3:51] Okay that one place in the home if it’s a more involved proposal.
[4:00] Like I just did one actually a Monday just 38 hardwired roller Shades why I wanted to think about that a little bit.
[4:08] I got to sign proposal this morning.
[4:10] So, you know, it just differs on mature situation.
[4:14] Sure Okay, it definitely makes sense.
[4:17] Yeah.
[4:18] Another one has to address throw that into where I’m at with it.
[4:21] Mmm and no customer who’s building a new home and it’s you know, they’ve done the groundbreaking and all that.
[4:28] So we just with a fine-tooth comb and through every room and discuss needs so it’s a process for some others.
[4:36] It’s quick and easy.
[4:37] Yeah.
[4:37] Yeah.
[4:38] So tell me about that mix new home construction versus people that are already, you know embedded in their home.
[4:48] I Yes, well, I would encourage people if they’re building or remodeling a new home to contact a window treatment providers quickly as possible because too often they don’t think about things that we can help them with for example a popular door in Wisconsin today and that perhaps is Nationwide is a full glass or a partial glass on the as a window on the door.
[5:16] Well people don’t often.
[5:18] Think about the fact that that might need some privacy.
[5:22] So if indeed a blind is needed they need to think about the door handle.
[5:26] So can I get a blind behind that door handle and if it’s one of the you know, the lever door handles very popular today at new construction and remodels that’s more difficult.
[5:38] It can be done but it’s more difficult.
[5:40] So this I can point out simple things or another window treatment person can’t find those things out or simply the molding and the placement of the windows.
[5:48] And do you really want that high window?
[5:50] There’s a octagon, you know it just you know, as people are beginning to think about a remodel or build.
[5:57] It’s important to bring in that window treatment person.
[6:01] Sure.
[6:02] The other thing we can help them with in that situation is talking about if they want to do power house that blank going to operate.
[6:09] Is it going to be a hard wire?
[6:10] Is it going to be batteries?
[6:11] Can you reach it plus the whole budget issue?
[6:17] If they wait till the very end, it’s often like oh my gosh.
[6:20] I didn’t realize custom window treatments were so much money.
[6:24] But if we can help them with that to understand the value and the class upfront it behooves all of us.
[6:33] Yeah.
[6:34] Yeah makes that conversation a little easier than he does.
[6:37] Yeah, I mean fortunately I’m going to be able to offer financing shortly to which will help them those bigger projects.
[6:44] Yeah, yeah, that’s going to be a big game changer 24.
[6:48] Yeah.
[6:48] I’m looking forward to having that option for customers.
[6:51] That’s awesome.
[6:52] That’s great.
[6:53] So we’ve been talking kind of about your ideal customer.
[6:56] What about commercial?
[6:58] Do you guys do any commercial work or is it mostly all residential we do some commercial work the one I just told you about the 38 hardwired rollers is a commercial project.
[7:08] But the way I get the commercial projects is typically because I’ve done the customers home.
[7:15] and they’ve you know, we’ve had the camps to work together and this one I mean they they didn’t do any shopping that I mean, I’ve helped them multiple times in multiple projects and they just fortunately like to work with me and I gave him a fair price and I’ll forego so I only do small commercial projects and then a lot of Culver’s in the Madison area some smaller instruments offices and not a couple of wineries, but not the big not the big High-rise residential Halls on campus and I’m not doing that kind of work.
[7:51] Very good.
[7:52] Okay, very good.
[7:53] Cool.
[7:54] All right, so we talked about your story a little bit or who you are talked about kind of who your target market is.
[8:03] Let’s let’s talk about the part that I really like, which is a marketing piece.
[8:09] So tell me about your marketing mix.
[8:11] I mentioned that you are one of our clients.
[8:14] So you’ve got a digital marketing piece kind of tell us about the mix of what you’re up to.
[8:19] Well, let me back up a little bit.
[8:22] Well, you know as being in business 18 years the marketing has evolved significantly over the years, you know, I started long ago spending too much money on paper advertising.
[8:34] Okay, you know I had some result now I’m talking like between 2006 2010-11 whatever peel that away because I wasn’t getting any well not any but the results I was looking for.
[8:49] You’re talking about Direct Mail type stuff.
[8:51] So I’m talking about this is really going to date me yellow pages.
[8:56] Okay paper newspaper ads, you know those kinds of things.
[9:01] I don’t even think there’s a yellow page book out there anymore.
[9:04] I don’t know for sure.
[9:05] I don’t have one.
[9:06] That’s for sure.
[9:07] But anyway, so that brings me no through the course of time to working with you.
[9:13] Well, I’ve learned the value of the internet and Google my business and having a great website and consequently when we reached out to you you’ve helped me with all of that just yesterday somebody calls that hey week.
[9:31] I called you because you’ve got a great website and I saw what I was looking for and when can we get together?
[9:36] So and it’s going to be a great job great Polly told me over the phone so that Google My Business Connection the SEO that has been able to boost my business has has been tremendous.
[9:50] So that’s what I’m relying on mostly today.
[9:53] Okay, as far as As I’m getting the name out there about incredible windows.
[10:01] I was doing I was doing social media for several years spent a lot of money on it.
[10:11] I stuffed in it.
[10:12] Okay, and that was in September and I don’t feel like it’s been a big negative impact and its busiest I want to be so I you know, it’s the Google my business.
[10:25] My website it’s the reviews.
[10:27] Yeah having said that that’s only really a third of my business which I need because those are my new customers the other third are repeat customers.
[10:37] In fact, I have an installation going on today that they said.
[10:40] Oh we’ve added the sunroom.
[10:42] I need to do more Mentos 04.
[10:44] I moved.
[10:45] I have a new home that’s going in next week that afternoon.
[10:48] I was Old Flames five years ago.
[10:52] Another one is are they could buy a second home?
[10:55] And so, you know, I’ve helped people a second homes in Florida, Arizona just because of the installation services opportunities Hunter Douglas offers.
[11:03] And so that’s been great.
[11:05] And then the third way I get customers and marketing my referrals.
[11:11] I mean, so I try to nurture my existing customers.
[11:17] So they remember me when they have a friend who needs a project.
[11:20] So yeah.
[11:22] But yeah, there’s social media media hasn’t been something that me lying on Google my business and a great website as well.
[11:30] I rely on for new customers.
[11:32] Yeah.
[11:33] Yeah.
[11:33] That’s a good marketing mix though.
[11:35] I think the word of mouth and the referrals when I talk to a potential customer for our business.
[11:43] Those are the two things that they’ve they’ve relied on up to that point and it’s there’s a missing piece and I think that is that obviously the digital Marketing piece you can only go so far on referrals and word Ralph, right?
[11:57] So so no, no things like Valpak more I get Valpak and I thought the recycling bin right away.
[12:09] It’s okay and look through it and it’s just not something I would use and so that’s not been something that I feel shame has been my money.
[12:18] Sure.
[12:19] Okay.
[12:19] Do you do any old working or home show?
[12:22] Anything like that?
[12:24] Nope.
[12:25] Nope.
[12:26] I’m pretty protective of my time.
[12:28] Yeah, and you know, I have to think about the time involved in a home show and the expense and I know I just don’t feel like it’s worth my time.
[12:39] Sure.
[12:39] Okay.
[12:40] Now that does he doesn’t work for some but it’s not an area I choose to spend any time or money on sure sure.
[12:48] I do have a question here.
[12:49] What marketing efforts have you stopped using in the past years?
[12:52] You mentioned the social media thing and tell me a little bit more about what you were doing on the social side.
[13:00] I was doing Facebook and Instagram just you were just posting on those channels.
[13:07] Okay?
[13:08] Okay.
[13:08] Yeah, so I’ve heard in the past the phrase likes don’t pay the bills.
[13:14] Yeah, right.
[13:15] Exactly.
[13:16] Yeah, I think there’s I think there’s some some credibility in brand awareness sure for social media people people being aware and staying top of mind.
[13:30] I definitely don’t think social media pays the bills, right?
[13:33] It doesn’t.
[13:35] Yeah.
[13:35] Well there was one other thing that I do but it helps me stay in touch with customers is a monthly newsletter.
[13:42] So, okay.
[13:43] I do send that out once a month.
[13:46] Yeah, I think that’s that’s a great way to stay top of mind as well.
[13:50] Right?
[13:50] And you know, I’ve asked, you know, there’s a note at the top of my newsletter self.
[13:54] Please forward to anyone you met Thing Cody of Interest so you know it.
[14:00] Okay, no helps in the bar 1500 subscribers.
[14:04] Okay.
[14:05] Okay.
[14:07] Do you have any other incentives?
[14:09] Do you offer any special incentives to attract all my reviews things of that sort?
[14:15] No, I need to go.
[14:16] I need to do better about that.
[14:17] Typically we ask people to do it.
[14:21] I said typically sometimes I forget so but you know When I’ve asked most times people have been good about ready a nice review and then very pleased and he did yeah work on getting that systematize so I can get it done easier.
[14:38] And I know that we’ve been wearing has a way to do that.
[14:40] I need to utilize that yeah.
[14:43] Well, we we can jump on a training session and I’ll show you how I usually do it verbally because I always follow up if I can get there.
[14:54] That’s great.
[14:55] But if I’m big jobs.
[14:58] I always go back now if it’s one or two, I mean I go back by always follow up on the phone.
[15:02] Okay?
[15:03] Yeah, we’re checking.
[15:04] So yeah, so in the home at the end of the install you ask them really just would you leave us a review?
[15:11] Sure.
[15:11] Okay.
[15:12] Yeah and they’ll say yes, and then you need to follow up to get them at link or whatever.
[15:17] Yeah.
[15:17] Okay, very good.
[15:20] Some of our clients have a little business cards with the with the QR code on it that they can hand them a 10.
[15:27] Yeah, yeah.
[15:28] Okay.
[15:30] Did that will help me figure that one out, please.
[15:32] Yeah, we can do that.
[15:33] I depend upon people like you to help me in those areas.
[15:38] I know what my areas of expertise are.
[15:40] Yeah.
[15:41] Yeah sure.
[15:41] You aren’t just so that’s why we have helped and even write my shop at home and I’m a sole proprietor.
[15:48] I’m an escort back play tonight.
[15:50] Subcontract all my help.
[15:53] I can’t do it all yeah.
[15:55] Yeah.
[15:57] Right, right.
[15:58] Okay follow up marketing.
[16:00] You mentioned the newsletter you doing anything else on the follow-up side after the fact so my I have an assistant that I it’s a subchapter and she works maybe about six or eight hours a month.
[16:17] Not a lot.
[16:18] She’s a teacher but just as help me for five or six years.
[16:21] She does follow up calls at the 3-month in the 10 month Mark just to make sure everybody’s Happy and things are working.
[16:28] Well the subtract in and that’s been good.
[16:32] Because if there’s a problem I’m going to taken care of right away.
[16:34] Usually they would reach out to me, but sometimes it forgets or they just don’t part of the reason I want to do that at that 10 month Mark is because I use in a hundred Douglas installation services and they pay for service calls within the first year.
[16:50] So I went okay within the first year versus at month or teen when when it’s
done.
[16:56] This morning for yeah.
[16:59] Okay, that’s great.
[17:00] And it’s it gives you an excuse to follow up with the customer.
[17:03] Yeah, and maybe oh we’ve been meaning to call you right or another room or something like that.
[17:11] Oh, that’s fantastic.
[17:12] That’s good.
[17:14] Are you are there any Services now that you see that are becoming more and more profitable?
[17:21] Well, the only service is I really offer are selling hundred I was blind so I’m not sure what you can meaning Based Services will you know, we re yeah industry Will services things that you’re offering to your car to your clients.
[17:36] No, not really.
[17:38] We try to service our clients while so for example, if you know, there’s a repair that needs to be done and you know my hands.
[17:45] My husband is my right arm with the repairs situation.
[17:47] So he we pick up.
[17:49] And take them back pick them up,pick them up the blinds up pack them up send them in for repair and then take them back to the customer.
[17:59] So that’s that’s his area Okay, so so I mean this is service of people like I’m excited.
[18:05] No other dealers they here’s the place to ship it to and here you go, you know, so we try to provide that service for them.
[18:13] No try it we do.
[18:15] Okay and on the repairs, is that for only?
[18:19] Past clients.
[18:21] Yes.
[18:22] Yeah getting into the repair side of things can start to get pretty crazy if you’re it is and it’s not profitable, right if right.
[18:32] Yeah and my opinion so yeah, most of our clients do they want to stay very far away from repairs, right?
[18:41] The one exception I found is I interviewed Kelsey Stewart from Bloom and blinds which is a franchise and they Usually prefer to do the repairs with the mindset of that gets them in the door sure and they kind of use it as a loss leader.
[18:58] So I found that interesting that 95% of our clients don’t want anything to do with the repairs, but they do so any interesting.
[19:10] So, all right.
[19:12] So sounds like you need to work on the reviews.
[19:16] The reviews can really help the The the Google my business side of things, right?
[19:22] And you said that’s that’s a big driver for for New Leads as well as though I love that you guys are getting good leads from that as well.
[19:33] So what would you say to somebody who’s just getting started in the window treatment business that you know, they’re they’re struggling to get moving.
[19:43] What is something that they could do that would help Point them in the right direction.
[19:50] Well something that I would suggest when first of all find somebody to talk to who can mentor you know, like I said, I had a friend in Northern Illinois.
[20:01] It was my go-to because I knew nothing and I was an educator and I didn’t know anything about sales.
[20:12] I didn’t know anything about where the payments so you have to jump in and Learn Somehow.
[20:15] So having a mentor really helps but then I would also say not try to do it all at once.
[20:23] You know, I decided to keep my business model very simplistic.
[20:28] I started selling 100 Douglas and another brand and soft treatments within two or three years peeled away the other brand and soft treatments.
[20:38] First of all, there’s too many guards.
[20:40] I’m samples have to deal with and second goal too many products in to figure out and systems and I just want to simplify my business.
[20:49] So I would suggest rather than starting out with lots of offerings start with one will learn it figure out what you want to do and where you want to take your business and then if you choose to decide to add more do it one at a time and learn that product line.
[21:05] Yeah, so I think that’s pretty wise to yeah to not take advantage of the systems that are in place with a vendor seems foolish to me.
[21:20] I mean hundred Douglas has great systems that worked for me for all these years.
[21:24] I’ve learned them.
[21:25] I know how to use them.
[21:26] I know how to find information on how to get information they need it because I sure don’t know what all so learn the product line as well and I’m still learning.
[21:37] I mean somebody asked me about A pot recess Pocket Roller shade power yesterday was like mmm.
[21:44] I’ve never done that one.
[21:45] So sure enough.
[21:46] I was on the phone yesterday 13 all I could about it.
[21:49] So just be willing to roll your sleeves up and learn.
[21:55] Fantastic advice and if you don’t know the answer just tell I mean I always tell people I’ll find it and get back to them because and then be sure to get back to them.
[22:06] You know, we’ve all had people say I’ll get back to you and we never hear from them again.
[22:10] So right right follow-ups a big piece of that in it is yeah.
[22:16] Yeah, and if you’re not strong in that area, some people don’t have that that personality trait find somebody that you can add to your team that does that Yeah, so I mean certainly as a shop at home.
[22:29] I’m I’m a part-time business and they asked why not ask for fun.
[22:34] I wanted the flexibility of a shop at home and that was short front and that’s provided.
[22:39] I mean the shop at home has done that so I’m not know I guess.
[22:44] Yeah hell of it.
[22:45] Thank you so much for being on today.
[22:47] I really appreciate your time.
[22:49] If somebody wants to learn more about your business.
[22:52] Where can they go incredible and Those that come from the windows.com easy enough easy to find.
[23:00] Yeah again Georgie.
[23:01] Thank you so much for being on today.
[23:03] I really enjoyed your time.
[23:05] I appreciate you as a guest appreciate you as a person and thank you again.
[23:10] I hope you have a great great rest of your day you hope so too, but I appreciate your help and growing my business will.
[23:17] All right.
[23:18] Thank you very much very much.
[23:19] Thank you everybody for listening.
[23:21] We’ll see you on the next episode

Transcript

[0:02] Alright.
[0:02] Hello everyone.
[0:03] Welcome to another episode of marketing pains.
[0:05] My name is Will hanky.
[0:08] This is the podcast where we talked with real window treatment and Awning business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business today.
[0:18] We’re on covering success.
[0:20] This is episode 33 and I’m excited to have Georgiana Schwandt who we called Georgie with us from Madison, Wisconsin.
[0:30] She has been a client of ours for probably around I think nine or ten months now and we’re excited to have Georgie with us today.
[0:38] And let’s Jump Right In Georgie.
[0:40] How are you?
[0:41] I’m good.
[0:42] Well and you doing fantastic so excited to have you on today?
[0:47] Thank you.
[0:47] I appreciate the opportunity.
[0:48] Well, yeah.
[0:50] Well, let’s Jump Right In tell me a little bit about your business.
[0:53] It’s called incredible Windows.
[0:55] You’re in the Madison Wisconsin area.
[0:58] Tell us a little bit more.
[1:00] Well, so my story would I give him a very abbreviated version when I meet with a customer is this simply this is my retirement business.
[1:11] So I had a real job for 28 years as a high school educator and I retired relatively young in as far as Retirement term door speaking and I needed something to do and look around for about two years trying to figure that out.
[1:27] Try different things including real estate appraisal.
[1:30] I hated it took the courses got certified and I don’t like this.
[1:34] So I thought well, let’s look for something else and I went out for lunch or someone who is selling window treatments in Northern Illinois.
[1:42] And she said you had to do what I do.
[1:43] I said I think you’re right and it was about that quick.
[1:47] So that was in 2006 and here I am almost 18 years later selling window treatments on a part-time basis as I shop at home.
[1:56] I’ve never had a storefront.
[1:57] I never will and I I’m enjoy great success.
[2:03] Wow, okay, so you don’t like the storefront idea tell me more about that.
[2:09] Well, there are a couple reasons I decided that first of all, I was a high school principal in Madison for eight years managing lots and lots of people including students and staff and parents and you know legislators and being involved and I wanted a simple business model that was manageable.
[2:31] I didn’t want to have the expense of the storefront and I have no regrets.
[2:36] I know it took me a while to get started.
[2:39] Of course, it wasn’t easy, but I feel like I’ve done it and I was still learning and I still when I do grow.
[2:48] Good good.
[2:49] So your business model is get the lead go to the home pitch the pitch the installer.
[2:57] Whatever the product do you get the payment right then or do you go back and do a proposal and then of course do the install later?
[3:08] Well, it works in different ways.
[3:11] Ideally what actually the ideal situation happened yesterday where indeed I meant with a customer.
[3:19] She did a remodel over 30 year old home and was when a new window treatments.
[3:24] I we went in and talked about her needs and what she wanted and if it’s a she’s doing it in two parts.
[3:30] So we did the bedrooms and baths first and if it’s a relatively small project meaning 10 12 15 blinds, I can do a quote pretty easily in the home and then I can present it to her and discuss it and I said, are you ready to move forward you want to think about?
[3:48] Thought she said I’ll get my credit card.
[3:51] Okay that one place in the home if it’s a more involved proposal.
[4:00] Like I just did one actually a Monday just 38 hardwired roller Shades why I wanted to think about that a little bit.
[4:08] I got to sign proposal this morning.
[4:10] So, you know, it just differs on mature situation.
[4:14] Sure Okay, it definitely makes sense.
[4:17] Yeah.
[4:18] Another one has to address throw that into where I’m at with it.
[4:21] Mmm and no customer who’s building a new home and it’s you know, they’ve done the groundbreaking and all that.
[4:28] So we just with a fine-tooth comb and through every room and discuss needs so it’s a process for some others.
[4:36] It’s quick and easy.
[4:37] Yeah.
[4:37] Yeah.
[4:38] So tell me about that mix new home construction versus people that are already, you know embedded in their home.
[4:48] I Yes, well, I would encourage people if they’re building or remodeling a new home to contact a window treatment providers quickly as possible because too often they don’t think about things that we can help them with for example a popular door in Wisconsin today and that perhaps is Nationwide is a full glass or a partial glass on the as a window on the door.
[5:16] Well people don’t often.
[5:18] Think about the fact that that might need some privacy.
[5:22] So if indeed a blind is needed they need to think about the door handle.
[5:26] So can I get a blind behind that door handle and if it’s one of the you know, the lever door handles very popular today at new construction and remodels that’s more difficult.
[5:38] It can be done but it’s more difficult.
[5:40] So this I can point out simple things or another window treatment person can’t find those things out or simply the molding and the placement of the windows.
[5:48] And do you really want that high window?
[5:50] There’s a octagon, you know it just you know, as people are beginning to think about a remodel or build.
[5:57] It’s important to bring in that window treatment person.
[6:01] Sure.
[6:02] The other thing we can help them with in that situation is talking about if they want to do power house that blank going to operate.
[6:09] Is it going to be a hard wire?
[6:10] Is it going to be batteries?
[6:11] Can you reach it plus the whole budget issue?
[6:17] If they wait till the very end, it’s often like oh my gosh.
[6:20] I didn’t realize custom window treatments were so much money.
[6:24] But if we can help them with that to understand the value and the class upfront it behooves all of us.
[6:33] Yeah.
[6:34] Yeah makes that conversation a little easier than he does.
[6:37] Yeah, I mean fortunately I’m going to be able to offer financing shortly to which will help them those bigger projects.
[6:44] Yeah, yeah, that’s going to be a big game changer 24.
[6:48] Yeah.
[6:48] I’m looking forward to having that option for customers.
[6:51] That’s awesome.
[6:52] That’s great.
[6:53] So we’ve been talking kind of about your ideal customer.
[6:56] What about commercial?
[6:58] Do you guys do any commercial work or is it mostly all residential we do some commercial work the one I just told you about the 38 hardwired rollers is a commercial project.
[7:08] But the way I get the commercial projects is typically because I’ve done the customers home.
[7:15] and they’ve you know, we’ve had the camps to work together and this one I mean they they didn’t do any shopping that I mean, I’ve helped them multiple times in multiple projects and they just fortunately like to work with me and I gave him a fair price and I’ll forego so I only do small commercial projects and then a lot of Culver’s in the Madison area some smaller instruments offices and not a couple of wineries, but not the big not the big High-rise residential Halls on campus and I’m not doing that kind of work.
[7:51] Very good.
[7:52] Okay, very good.
[7:53] Cool.
[7:54] All right, so we talked about your story a little bit or who you are talked about kind of who your target market is.
[8:03] Let’s let’s talk about the part that I really like, which is a marketing piece.
[8:09] So tell me about your marketing mix.
[8:11] I mentioned that you are one of our clients.
[8:14] So you’ve got a digital marketing piece kind of tell us about the mix of what you’re up to.
[8:19] Well, let me back up a little bit.
[8:22] Well, you know as being in business 18 years the marketing has evolved significantly over the years, you know, I started long ago spending too much money on paper advertising.
[8:34] Okay, you know I had some result now I’m talking like between 2006 2010-11 whatever peel that away because I wasn’t getting any well not any but the results I was looking for.
[8:49] You’re talking about Direct Mail type stuff.
[8:51] So I’m talking about this is really going to date me yellow pages.
[8:56] Okay paper newspaper ads, you know those kinds of things.
[9:01] I don’t even think there’s a yellow page book out there anymore.
[9:04] I don’t know for sure.
[9:05] I don’t have one.
[9:06] That’s for sure.
[9:07] But anyway, so that brings me no through the course of time to working with you.
[9:13] Well, I’ve learned the value of the internet and Google my business and having a great website and consequently when we reached out to you you’ve helped me with all of that just yesterday somebody calls that hey week.
[9:31] I called you because you’ve got a great website and I saw what I was looking for and when can we get together?
[9:36] So and it’s going to be a great job great Polly told me over the phone so that Google My Business Connection the SEO that has been able to boost my business has has been tremendous.
[9:50] So that’s what I’m relying on mostly today.
[9:53] Okay, as far as As I’m getting the name out there about incredible windows.
[10:01] I was doing I was doing social media for several years spent a lot of money on it.
[10:11] I stuffed in it.
[10:12] Okay, and that was in September and I don’t feel like it’s been a big negative impact and its busiest I want to be so I you know, it’s the Google my business.
[10:25] My website it’s the reviews.
[10:27] Yeah having said that that’s only really a third of my business which I need because those are my new customers the other third are repeat customers.
[10:37] In fact, I have an installation going on today that they said.
[10:40] Oh we’ve added the sunroom.
[10:42] I need to do more Mentos 04.
[10:44] I moved.
[10:45] I have a new home that’s going in next week that afternoon.
[10:48] I was Old Flames five years ago.
[10:52] Another one is are they could buy a second home?
[10:55] And so, you know, I’ve helped people a second homes in Florida, Arizona just because of the installation services opportunities Hunter Douglas offers.
[11:03] And so that’s been great.
[11:05] And then the third way I get customers and marketing my referrals.
[11:11] I mean, so I try to nurture my existing customers.
[11:17] So they remember me when they have a friend who needs a project.
[11:20] So yeah.
[11:22] But yeah, there’s social media media hasn’t been something that me lying on Google my business and a great website as well.
[11:30] I rely on for new customers.
[11:32] Yeah.
[11:33] Yeah.
[11:33] That’s a good marketing mix though.
[11:35] I think the word of mouth and the referrals when I talk to a potential customer for our business.
[11:43] Those are the two things that they’ve they’ve relied on up to that point and it’s there’s a missing piece and I think that is that obviously the digital Marketing piece you can only go so far on referrals and word Ralph, right?
[11:57] So so no, no things like Valpak more I get Valpak and I thought the recycling bin right away.
[12:09] It’s okay and look through it and it’s just not something I would use and so that’s not been something that I feel shame has been my money.
[12:18] Sure.
[12:19] Okay.
[12:19] Do you do any old working or home show?
[12:22] Anything like that?
[12:24] Nope.
[12:25] Nope.
[12:26] I’m pretty protective of my time.
[12:28] Yeah, and you know, I have to think about the time involved in a home show and the expense and I know I just don’t feel like it’s worth my time.
[12:39] Sure.
[12:39] Okay.
[12:40] Now that does he doesn’t work for some but it’s not an area I choose to spend any time or money on sure sure.
[12:48] I do have a question here.
[12:49] What marketing efforts have you stopped using in the past years?
[12:52] You mentioned the social media thing and tell me a little bit more about what you were doing on the social side.
[13:00] I was doing Facebook and Instagram just you were just posting on those channels.
[13:07] Okay?
[13:08] Okay.
[13:08] Yeah, so I’ve heard in the past the phrase likes don’t pay the bills.
[13:14] Yeah, right.
[13:15] Exactly.
[13:16] Yeah, I think there’s I think there’s some some credibility in brand awareness sure for social media people people being aware and staying top of mind.
[13:30] I definitely don’t think social media pays the bills, right?
[13:33] It doesn’t.
[13:35] Yeah.
[13:35] Well there was one other thing that I do but it helps me stay in touch with customers is a monthly newsletter.
[13:42] So, okay.
[13:43] I do send that out once a month.
[13:46] Yeah, I think that’s that’s a great way to stay top of mind as well.
[13:50] Right?
[13:50] And you know, I’ve asked, you know, there’s a note at the top of my newsletter self.
[13:54] Please forward to anyone you met Thing Cody of Interest so you know it.
[14:00] Okay, no helps in the bar 1500 subscribers.
[14:04] Okay.
[14:05] Okay.
[14:07] Do you have any other incentives?
[14:09] Do you offer any special incentives to attract all my reviews things of that sort?
[14:15] No, I need to go.
[14:16] I need to do better about that.
[14:17] Typically we ask people to do it.
[14:21] I said typically sometimes I forget so but you know When I’ve asked most times people have been good about ready a nice review and then very pleased and he did yeah work on getting that systematize so I can get it done easier.
[14:38] And I know that we’ve been wearing has a way to do that.
[14:40] I need to utilize that yeah.
[14:43] Well, we we can jump on a training session and I’ll show you how I usually do it verbally because I always follow up if I can get there.
[14:54] That’s great.
[14:55] But if I’m big jobs.
[14:58] I always go back now if it’s one or two, I mean I go back by always follow up on the phone.
[15:02] Okay?
[15:03] Yeah, we’re checking.
[15:04] So yeah, so in the home at the end of the install you ask them really just would you leave us a review?
[15:11] Sure.
[15:11] Okay.
[15:12] Yeah and they’ll say yes, and then you need to follow up to get them at link or whatever.
[15:17] Yeah.
[15:17] Okay, very good.
[15:20] Some of our clients have a little business cards with the with the QR code on it that they can hand them a 10.
[15:27] Yeah, yeah.
[15:28] Okay.
[15:30] Did that will help me figure that one out, please.
[15:32] Yeah, we can do that.
[15:33] I depend upon people like you to help me in those areas.
[15:38] I know what my areas of expertise are.
[15:40] Yeah.
[15:41] Yeah sure.
[15:41] You aren’t just so that’s why we have helped and even write my shop at home and I’m a sole proprietor.
[15:48] I’m an escort back play tonight.
[15:50] Subcontract all my help.
[15:53] I can’t do it all yeah.
[15:55] Yeah.
[15:57] Right, right.
[15:58] Okay follow up marketing.
[16:00] You mentioned the newsletter you doing anything else on the follow-up side after the fact so my I have an assistant that I it’s a subchapter and she works maybe about six or eight hours a month.
[16:17] Not a lot.
[16:18] She’s a teacher but just as help me for five or six years.
[16:21] She does follow up calls at the 3-month in the 10 month Mark just to make sure everybody’s Happy and things are working.
[16:28] Well the subtract in and that’s been good.
[16:32] Because if there’s a problem I’m going to taken care of right away.
[16:34] Usually they would reach out to me, but sometimes it forgets or they just don’t part of the reason I want to do that at that 10 month Mark is because I use in a hundred Douglas installation services and they pay for service calls within the first year.
[16:50] So I went okay within the first year versus at month or teen when when it’s
done.
[16:56] This morning for yeah.
[16:59] Okay, that’s great.
[17:00] And it’s it gives you an excuse to follow up with the customer.
[17:03] Yeah, and maybe oh we’ve been meaning to call you right or another room or something like that.
[17:11] Oh, that’s fantastic.
[17:12] That’s good.
[17:14] Are you are there any Services now that you see that are becoming more and more profitable?
[17:21] Well, the only service is I really offer are selling hundred I was blind so I’m not sure what you can meaning Based Services will you know, we re yeah industry Will services things that you’re offering to your car to your clients.
[17:36] No, not really.
[17:38] We try to service our clients while so for example, if you know, there’s a repair that needs to be done and you know my hands.
[17:45] My husband is my right arm with the repairs situation.
[17:47] So he we pick up.
[17:49] And take them back pick them up,pick them up the blinds up pack them up send them in for repair and then take them back to the customer.
[17:59] So that’s that’s his area Okay, so so I mean this is service of people like I’m excited.
[18:05] No other dealers they here’s the place to ship it to and here you go, you know, so we try to provide that service for them.
[18:13] No try it we do.
[18:15] Okay and on the repairs, is that for only?
[18:19] Past clients.
[18:21] Yes.
[18:22] Yeah getting into the repair side of things can start to get pretty crazy if you’re it is and it’s not profitable, right if right.
[18:32] Yeah and my opinion so yeah, most of our clients do they want to stay very far away from repairs, right?
[18:41] The one exception I found is I interviewed Kelsey Stewart from Bloom and blinds which is a franchise and they Usually prefer to do the repairs with the mindset of that gets them in the door sure and they kind of use it as a loss leader.
[18:58] So I found that interesting that 95% of our clients don’t want anything to do with the repairs, but they do so any interesting.
[19:10] So, all right.
[19:12] So sounds like you need to work on the reviews.
[19:16] The reviews can really help the The the Google my business side of things, right?
[19:22] And you said that’s that’s a big driver for for New Leads as well as though I love that you guys are getting good leads from that as well.
[19:33] So what would you say to somebody who’s just getting started in the window treatment business that you know, they’re they’re struggling to get moving.
[19:43] What is something that they could do that would help Point them in the right direction.
[19:50] Well something that I would suggest when first of all find somebody to talk to who can mentor you know, like I said, I had a friend in Northern Illinois.
[20:01] It was my go-to because I knew nothing and I was an educator and I didn’t know anything about sales.
[20:12] I didn’t know anything about where the payments so you have to jump in and Learn Somehow.
[20:15] So having a mentor really helps but then I would also say not try to do it all at once.
[20:23] You know, I decided to keep my business model very simplistic.
[20:28] I started selling 100 Douglas and another brand and soft treatments within two or three years peeled away the other brand and soft treatments.
[20:38] First of all, there’s too many guards.
[20:40] I’m samples have to deal with and second goal too many products in to figure out and systems and I just want to simplify my business.
[20:49] So I would suggest rather than starting out with lots of offerings start with one will learn it figure out what you want to do and where you want to take your business and then if you choose to decide to add more do it one at a time and learn that product line.
[21:05] Yeah, so I think that’s pretty wise to yeah to not take advantage of the systems that are in place with a vendor seems foolish to me.
[21:20] I mean hundred Douglas has great systems that worked for me for all these years.
[21:24] I’ve learned them.
[21:25] I know how to use them.
[21:26] I know how to find information on how to get information they need it because I sure don’t know what all so learn the product line as well and I’m still learning.
[21:37] I mean somebody asked me about A pot recess Pocket Roller shade power yesterday was like mmm.
[21:44] I’ve never done that one.
[21:45] So sure enough.
[21:46] I was on the phone yesterday 13 all I could about it.
[21:49] So just be willing to roll your sleeves up and learn.
[21:55] Fantastic advice and if you don’t know the answer just tell I mean I always tell people I’ll find it and get back to them because and then be sure to get back to them.
[22:06] You know, we’ve all had people say I’ll get back to you and we never hear from them again.
[22:10] So right right follow-ups a big piece of that in it is yeah.
[22:16] Yeah, and if you’re not strong in that area, some people don’t have that that personality trait find somebody that you can add to your team that does that Yeah, so I mean certainly as a shop at home.
[22:29] I’m I’m a part-time business and they asked why not ask for fun.
[22:34] I wanted the flexibility of a shop at home and that was short front and that’s provided.
[22:39] I mean the shop at home has done that so I’m not know I guess.
[22:44] Yeah hell of it.
[22:45] Thank you so much for being on today.
[22:47] I really appreciate your time.
[22:49] If somebody wants to learn more about your business.
[22:52] Where can they go incredible and Those that come from the windows.com easy enough easy to find.
[23:00] Yeah again Georgie.
[23:01] Thank you so much for being on today.
[23:03] I really enjoyed your time.
[23:05] I appreciate you as a guest appreciate you as a person and thank you again.
[23:10] I hope you have a great great rest of your day you hope so too, but I appreciate your help and growing my business will.
[23:17] All right.
[23:18] Thank you very much very much.
[23:19] Thank you everybody for listening.
[23:21] We’ll see you on the next episode

Key Takeaways

• The market is seeing a shift towards luxury clients and budget-conscious customers.
• Technology integration, such as smart home features, is becoming increasingly important.
• Hiring and training remain crucial for business growth.
• The Sun Shading Expo showcased innovations in exterior shading solutions.

Current Market Trends Shift in Customer Base

Mike Lewis notes a significant change in their customer base:

“We’ve seen a lot of people go extra luxury and cost really wasn’t a factor… Or the opposite has hit and it’s like, hey, you we have this minimum and it seems like we’re getting a lot of minimum jobs too.”

This polarization of the market presents both challenges and opportunities for window treatment businesses.

Election Year Impact

The upcoming election is affecting consumer behavior. Mike explains:

“This happens every four years for us. Honestly, it’s election year and that’s is always a big thing and you know money trickles downhill.”

Opportunities in the Luxury Market

Jessica Harling emphasizes the importance of networking in the luxury market:

“You have to go where they live… Whether that is being on a board or going to a charity event or whatever, you just have to go where they live and literally network with them.”

Technology and Innovation

Smart Home Integration

The podcast highlights the increasing importance of smart home technology in the window treatment industry. Features like motorization, solar panels, and integration with voice assistants are becoming standard expectations for many customers.

Innovations from Sun Shading Expo

Mike shares an interesting innovation he saw at the expo:

“There was a retractable awning company that will still are retractable awning that we have puts lights in there. They’re actually integrated in it’s not an aftermarket thing.”

This kind of integration showcases how the industry is evolving to meet customer demands for both functionality and aesthetics.

Hiring and Training Challenges

Changing Perspective on Hiring

Jessica challenges the common notion that it’s hard to find installers:

“It is not hard to find installers. It is hard to find what is the expectation in your head of a perfect installer. You have to train them.”

Importance of Training

Both guests emphasize the crucial role of ongoing training. Mike shares:

“Training them after, basically we always say after a year is when you should probably stop making mistakes, right? But it takes a long time to really get there.”

Looking Ahead to 2025

As the industry prepares for 2025, both guests are focusing on growth and preparation. Mike is expecting a “good bounce back” and is focusing on SEO to prepare for increased demand. Jessica is planning group workshops across the country to provide training on products, sales, and customer service.

The window treatment and awning industry is evolving rapidly, with shifts in customer demographics, technological advancements, and ongoing challenges in hiring and training. By staying informed about these trends and adapting strategies accordingly, businesses can position themselves for success in the coming year.

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Are you looking to improve your window treatment business’s online presence? At Window Treatment Marketing Pros, we specialize in digital marketing strategies tailored for the industry. Contact us today to learn how we can help you reach more customers and grow your business.

Video

https://youtu.be/3AtF8RAVYyE

Guest Profile: Casey Richardson

Casey Richardson is a Partner & Co-Founder at Craft Agency Group, a white label agency specializing in lead generation Facebook Ads. Focusing on niche agencies working with local service providers, Craft fills a gap in the white label marketplace – offering Facebook Ads at the highest level possible. Casey is known for his data-driven approach and expertise in testing and optimization, making him one of the most sought after strategists in the industry.
Casey’s dedication to the agency community runs deep, and in addition to being a trusted service provider for some of the fastest-growing agencies in the country, he is also a coach, consultant, and speaker.

Other Notes/Links:

To learn more about Casey Richardson visit:

Craft Agency

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

Listen to other episodes

Video

https://youtu.be/oDHByxYBYqk

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Transcript

Will Hanke – WTMP (00:00)
All right, hey everyone, Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business.

Today we’ve got a great service provider who’s also been a friend of mine for a while and does some really great things. And I’m very excited to have him on today. So Casey Richardson is a partner and co -founder at Craft Agency Group and Ad School, specializing in lead generation from Facebook ads. Focusing on niche agencies working with local service providers.

Kraft fills a gap in the white label marketplace, offering Facebook ads at the highest level possible. Casey is known for a data -driven approach and expertise in testing and optimization, making him one of the most sought after strategists in the industry. I’m lucky enough to have him on my podcast today. So Casey, how are you?

Casey (01:01)
Man, I’m doing great. What an intro. Thank you, Will. Appreciate it, man. Happy to be here. Happy to add value however I can.

Will Hanke – WTMP (01:03)
Hahaha

Yeah, so I’m so very excited about Facebook ads. I know you’re doing some fantastic things over there. So for the listeners, I want to get in a little bit to obviously how they can use Facebook ads for their business. You know how you set things up. You know, we’ll kind of get through some different things. But before we get into all of that, why don’t you give me a little bit of background? Give me the story of how you got into the digital marketing world in the first place.

Casey (01:39)
Sure, yeah, man. You know, I was a creative freelancer for 10 years. So I was always doing something in small business, you know, typically around graphic design, photography, video, something in that kind of world. And, you know, one of my more recent ventures, I guess, that kind of like tipped everything over into marketing is I ran a video production business and that agency was actually the first business that I built up to a million dollars a year. And

that one of the things that we came across in that process was like, okay, we film these great videos. Now what does the client do with them? And how do they actually maximize that investment? And we kind of started going into, well, let’s turn these videos into ads and make it more of like commercial campaigns and digital advertising for these businesses. And that kind of really opened my eyes to what digital advertising can do for a local business. And then,

COVID came around. essentially the entire business evaporated overnight. Video production is probably one of the most, like one of the industries that was hit almost as hard as restaurants. There was no production that was happening in person at all during that time. And essentially my entire client base just completely went away. So I did have a couple of clients that I was still managing ads for and

that was kind of the start of, maybe I could turn this into an agency. So I kind of ran that in the background for a little bit. know, money was tight, so I did have to go back and work for the man a little bit. you know, during that COVID time, I started working at Yelp as a sales rep. Your audience will probably have a love -hate relationship with that statement. Most sales reps from Yelp are very not helpful.

And they tend to bombard business owners trying to sell them ads. And I was, I was definitely one of those people, but I was one of the good guys who actually knew what they were doing and, actually did help people. So I learned a lot from that process and that kind of gave me the sales chops that I needed to run an agency. And you know, that, that really opened my eyes to, there are a lot of business owners that have no idea what to do with marketing and they need help. And that opened the door.

to, okay, let’s see what we can do from the advertising side. then one day, one of my clients that was stuck through it all through COVID and everything, I was running his ads and he was getting a ton of great results. He ran a hospitality group, hotel, restaurants, entertainment companies, all kinds of stuff. And he called me up one day and was like, what would it take for you to leave Yelp? And that was a really interesting question. And I had to think about it for a little bit and I threw out a number.

And he didn’t flinch and he was like, yep, come run my marketing department and build it from the ground up. And that was the start of what is today. Craft. So, my, business partner is that same person that used to be a client of mine. and we built up a marketing agency that was initially the in -house marketing team for hospitality group. And then we turn it into an agency, which then led us to serving more agencies through white label, which then turned into ad school, which is the primary focus today.

Will Hanke – WTMP (04:29)
Thanks.

Casey (04:47)
which is training agencies, how to run ads for people like what your audience are. basically when you hire an agency, I’m the guy that trains them.

Will Hanke – WTMP (04:52)
Nice.

Got it, got it, very cool. It’s interesting how we sometimes fall into a career or for a serial entrepreneur. Even then, we kind of fall into new business opportunities. I did something very similar. I would build websites and then just hand them over to the owner and say, OK, good luck. And I had no idea about the marketing end of it. And same thing. Once you started to learn it, you’re like, this is pretty awesome. So yeah.

Casey (05:24)
Yeah, very much so.

Will Hanke – WTMP (05:26)
Very cool, great. So let’s jump in and talk about some different things that our listeners could potentially learn from. One of the things that I wanted to talk about was best practices. I think that’s a good place to start. What are some best practices around running successful ad campaigns?

Casey (05:38)
shirt.

Testing, testing, testing, testing. That’s a big one for me. I’m a huge advocate of listen to the data, not your gut. So a lot of the stuff with advertising that you think will work is probably going to underperform. And the stuff that you never would think would work is going to be some of the top performing creative or copy that you put out into the world. So it’s really important to listen to the data that tells the entire story. So I would say best practice that anyone can take is test as many things as you possibly can. Refresh it.

consistently and listen to the data, not your gut.

Will Hanke – WTMP (06:17)
Totally makes sense. I definitely agree. You should be testing, you know, even other things, your newsletter, subject lines, you know, all these different things. You should always be testing some. So that’s fantastic. When it comes to Facebook ads, I don’t want to dig into the all the different types, but there are different headlines you can test, visuals, copy, you know, is there any order which ones are the best to test first?

Casey (06:36)
yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. So we typically recommend that when you’re setting up a Facebook ad campaign, there’s three main things that move the needle. It’s your creative, which is the visual. Okay. So the photo or the video, then your headline is the second most important. And the third most important is the primary text in the ad. So that’s like your main body copy of the ad. So what we usually recommend is 10 visuals, whether it be images or videos or a combination thereof. And then

five headlines and five primary text variations. And when you multiply all of those combinations together, you get 250 variables that you’re able to test, which is really cool. And that’s how you can test rapidly at scale just by having 10, five, and five. That’s 250 different variations of the same ad, essentially, with the same idea, the same hook. And you can really get some crazy results by doing that.

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:36)
I love that. And you don’t have to come up with 250 different ads, you know.

Casey (07:40)
gosh, Yeah, it’s much easier than that much more leveraged. So

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:45)
Yeah, so the system just takes those different variables, mixes them together, and then lets you know which combination worked the best.

Casey (07:52)
Exactly. Yeah. Yep. But if there’s if there’s one that’s the most important, it’s the visual for sure.

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:54)
Okay.

Because it gets the most attention. guess it’s the first I grab her. Yeah, yeah, totally makes sense. Anything in the home services area, you’ve managed millions in ad spend. Anything in particular that comes to your mind that grabs people’s attention?

Casey (08:01)
Yeah. Absolutely. Yep.

Yeah, I think it actually seems a little counterintuitive, but I’m a big fan of ads that don’t look and feel like ads. I think that with Facebook and Instagram, and I think it’s also important to like, let’s say when I’d say Facebook ads, I’m including Instagram in that. Facebook and Instagram is together and whenever I say Facebook ads. So when we’re talking about, it’s essentially interruption marketing when somebody’s scrolling through their Facebook or Instagram feed and they see an ad.

Will Hanke – WTMP (08:35)
Okay, sure, sure.

Casey (08:46)
So the chances of them engaging with something and being ready to engage with it when they’re in the mindset of, me see what my friends are up to, right? Let me be social. That’s what social media is. It’s let me connect with other people. It’s bringing everybody together, right? So the chances of them seeing an ad and taking an action on that ad are very slim to none. They’re probably just gonna scroll right past it if it feels like an ad, right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (08:55)
Right.

Casey (09:13)
So I’m a very big advocate for matching the messaging and the creative to the platform that you’re advertising on. Okay. So if it looks and feels like something that a friend posted, people are going to resonate with it more and they’re going to be like, who is this? What’s going on? What is the story that I’m reading? And it’s going to have a completely different effect. If it looks and feels like an ad, it’s going to perform like an ad and people are going to want to swipe away from it and not engage in less.

you’re in that very, very narrow window when it’s actually extremely relevant to them and they’re ready to take action. But the chances of that happening in interruption marketing, very slim.

Will Hanke – WTMP (09:50)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think from from me personally, it’s always that’s always been the detractor for running Facebook ads for clients is because what I always say is, you know, they’re they’re looking at cats and babies. They’re not necessarily going on Facebook to look for window treatments, right? Yeah.

Casey (10:09)
Exactly. Yep. But if you have a picture of like the, you know, the, the before and after from the perspective of, like the homeowner, right? Like trying to capture it as, or like a before and after video, that’s like a TikTok real style kind of deal from the perspective of the homeowner. like, I mean, there’s a ton of like remodeling videos and stuff that you can model after and show those before and afters from the perspective of like a user generated style of creative.

Will Hanke – WTMP (10:18)
Yeah.

Casey (10:37)
that matches the platform that it’s on, that’s where you’re gonna see a lot of success.

Will Hanke – WTMP (10:42)
I love it. On the Instagram side, would assume, well, it is photo based, but I know a lot of our clients do very well on Instagram because customers are wanting to imagine what their home could look like, right? So having those kinds of things in the ads could really come across quite well.

Casey (11:02)
Yeah, I think there’s also for home services something to take a look at that we’ve seen kind of it’s it’s it’s hit or miss, but it does surprise me sometimes every time I see it. In home services, if you’re advertising for home services on Facebook, make sure that you’re testing Facebook marketplace for your placement, because a lot of people go to Facebook marketplace when they’re looking for home improvement stuff. OK, or if they’re if they have like a DIY attitude or some sort of, you know,

Will Hanke – WTMP (11:25)
Okay.

Casey (11:29)
So that, that placement right there does a lot. and it’ll surprise me every once in a while. I’m like, wow, okay. We’re completely crushing it on marketplace. Let’s double down on the budget and that placement. Right. So, and then, the only other like really cool piece of advice that I can, that I can come up with is, targeting people who like Home Depot. That’s something that you can engage in. So, and then you can, there’s a bunch of other little tactical things that we can do with it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (11:38)
You

Casey (11:56)
but that’s a good little nugget for anyone. Yeah.

Will Hanke – WTMP (11:59)
I like that. I like that. I like the idea of marketplace because people are in more of a purchasing frame of mind, right? Maybe they’re still researching, but they do have a little bit of purchasing mindset versus seeing what their friends are up to, right?

Casey (12:07)
for sure.

Absolutely, yeah. And it’s important to remember too, like interruption marketing, right? And if we’re advertising to a cold audience that isn’t ready for that purchase right then and there, we need to do what we can to try and figure out where that search intent is and Marketplace is one of those places.

Will Hanke – WTMP (12:33)
Yeah, definitely makes sense. OK, very cool. Let’s talk about AI. So I recently had Jonathan Mast on the podcast. I know you know who he is. And we talked a lot about AI, things that we can do from a customer service perspective. But I would assume there’s things that you can leverage AI for when it comes to creating ads as well.

Casey (12:44)
sure do.

Absolutely, yes. We use AI daily with what we do across hundreds of campaigns. we test at scale. We’re very big on that. So like I said, listen to the data, not your gut. So what we’ll do is we leverage AI for when an ad does really well. We pull the ad copy, and we essentially tell AI, hey, this ad is performing really well. Give me 100 other variations of this.

Will Hanke – WTMP (13:03)
Okay.

Casey (13:26)
Right. And then we take all that and then we test all 100 at scale. and then initially just coming up with the, the first round of ad copy and headlines, we use a really cool approach where we have a very clear prompts. That’s like a two page Google doc prompts that we plug into AI. And we essentially build a really detailed ideal client profile for whoever we’re running the ads for. And then what we do is we attach.

improving copywriting frameworks and very well -known copywriters that are relevant to the niche that we’re operating in. And then we stack that on top of the ICP so that the ad copy is speaking directly to the dream client. And when you combine those things together, you get some really powerful stuff that does not feel like an AI wrote it. It’s very personalized. Yeah. Yeah.

Will Hanke – WTMP (14:09)
Okay.

I like that. That’s cool. very good. Are there any strategies that are specific for lead generation that maybe you guys use more than others?

Casey (14:28)
yeah. Yeah. So, not in terms of AI, just in general, just generating leads. Yeah. I think, you know, it’s, definitely going to depend on, on the niche. So I’m going to try and make this as relevant as I can for your audience. but I, I think, you know, we’re seeing a shift these days where there’s a trust recession. Okay. And what I mean by that is people are, smart and

Will Hanke – WTMP (14:33)
Just in general, yeah, yeah.

you

Casey (14:54)
They understand, know, if they’re giving name, email and phone number out and they’re they’re giving you that contact information as a lead, there needs to be a level of trust that’s built up before you can expect for that exchange to happen now. And more so as we move deeper into the future of marketing and where I see all that going, you know, that trust recession is something that you really have to focus on overcoming.

And the best way to do that is lean into social proof testimonials, know, case studies, before and afters, like build up that trust as much as you possibly can so that people feel comfortable not just giving you their name, email and phone number, but these days they have to envision you like you’re going to come into their home. You’re going to be doing work in their home, in their private lives. Like they want to be able to trust the business that they’re hiring and being in such a world where

Trust in digital marketing is so fragile, right? It really is. And it can be the difference maker between your campaign succeeding or failing just by focusing on how do you build up enough trust to consolidate the timeline that it’s going to take in order for somebody to know, like, and trust you. And you have to compress that timeline as much as possible in digital advertising.

Will Hanke – WTMP (16:06)
Yeah, and I think that speaks to using social media in general, right? I’ve done tests on websites where you can do user testing and say, hey, person, go do this thing on this website and let me know what you think. And one of the things that I got back one time, actually multiple times, was the person would go to the website and click on the social media icons and see if they were up to date, see if they were abandoned.

Casey (16:11)
100%.

Yeah. Right.

Will Hanke – WTMP (16:32)
Right. And that was part of the trust or distrust of the business if they were posting often. And I think if we layer on top of that, the Instagram stuff I mentioned with having great pictures up there, I love your idea of the before and afters. I think people can start to really imagine what their place could look like right on top of that.

Casey (16:49)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, and think about how you can save the consumer some time, right? So if you have over a hundred five -star reviews on Yelp and Google, put that in the ad. And then that saves them from having to Google or Yelp you guys to find out like, is this a reputable company? There’s little things like that that you can do. And of course people are dishonest, but don’t be dishonest, be honest, right? And show like, you can do a five emoji stars and have a 4 .8 rating and say, you know.

Will Hanke – WTMP (17:10)
Right.

you

Casey (17:22)
hundreds of five -star reviews and that’s not a bluff, right? It’s legit. So you can, there’s ways that you can navigate around that, but those are little things that you can do to just compress that timeline of building trust.

Will Hanke – WTMP (17:25)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that’s great. So I want to talk a little bit about the future of advertising. But before we talk about that, I wanted to ask you about common mistakes that people do, business owners do when they’re trying to run ad campaigns. What are the most common things that you see they do wrong?

Casey (17:51)
Testing is a big one. They’re not testing at all. Most people, like when we take over an ad account or when I do an audit on somebody’s account, one of the most common things that I see is they’re running one ad, one version of copy, and they’re spending 10 bucks a day. Right. And then they come to me and they’re like, Casey, my ads aren’t working. Facebook ads doesn’t work for me. It does. Facebook ads will work for you, but you get out of it when you put into it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (17:54)
Right.

Right, it’s not working. Yeah.

Casey (18:19)
Okay, and you have to treat it as a flywheel. You have to keep feeding it. It’s a machine that will eat your creative for breakfast and you need to constantly replenish and test new things. And when you find something that hits, you need to be able to scale that to the moon. So I think to answer your question, there’s two things that I see a lot of is people not testing enough or at all, and also not

putting their skin in the game in terms of budget, enough. And I think that, you know, we like for ad school, we’re running ads right now for our program. You know, my, my budget for the month is $10 ,000 a month in ad spend. And I’m not saying that every local business should be spending $10 ,000 a month, right? I’m running national ads to a very expensive demographic of people. And you know, there’s a lot of factors that go into that. But when we’re talking about a local business that is

providing a service for local homeowners, right? You need to be spending more than 10 bucks a day because the value of your job and what the revenue is that you can bring in from one specific client is high. So it’s okay and completely normal for your customer acquisition costs to be on the higher side of things. But if you’re expecting the world at 10 bucks a day, it’s just not gonna happen, right? Facebook is not the platform for you. So I think you have to be

Will Hanke – WTMP (19:30)
Yeah.

Casey (19:47)
in a place where you’re ready to invest in serious growth. Facebook should not be the platform to solve all of your problems with a low budget. If that’s what you’re looking for, look elsewhere. It’s the gas to the fire. It’s you already have some traction, you already have some recognition and reputation, and you’re ready to scale up to the next level. That’s where Facebook is a really powerful platform to be on.

Will Hanke – WTMP (20:11)
Yeah, yeah, I love it. And it all goes back to the testing piece as well. Right. You even if you have like an ad that’s killing it, it still degrades. Right. As time goes on. So it’s not like you you hit a gold mine and you’re just going to squeeze it for all it’s worth. It’s it’s going to run out. Plus, you have competitors who are probably seeing your ads and probably seeing some of that engagement and then.

Casey (20:16)
Yes.

100 %

Will Hanke – WTMP (20:38)
coming up with something similar, right?

Casey (20:40)
Yep. Yeah. But like when we have an ad that does really well, I’ll take the same exact video script and just change up the background or change the shirt that I’m wearing or, whatever. And we just micro improve the visuals and test different things when we know if we have a foundation that’s working and it’s doing well, let’s take that same foundation and let’s put it in a new environment and see how that does. And there’s different things that you can do to scale, whether it’s vertical with the amount of budget or horizontal.

with the amount of creative and how you’re approaching the campaign as a whole.

Will Hanke – WTMP (21:13)
Yeah, yeah. And I love your comment about the $10 a day. Facebook, Google, all these platforms, ad platforms make it really easy for you to set up an account and start spending money, right? They don’t necessarily have to teach you how to do it well. They just want you to input your credit card and start spending, right?

Casey (21:35)
I love that you brought that up too, because that is something that I see a lot of is, you know, Facebook has this thing called advantage plus, and it’s like they frame it. They frame it as like it’s an advantage for you to use this. I think a lot of business owners don’t realize that Facebook and Google, they’re a business. Their job is like the only way that they make money is through advertising. So if they can find a way, if this multi -billion dollar corporation can find a way

Will Hanke – WTMP (21:42)
Okay.

Right.

Casey (22:03)
to engineer you spending more money with them, they’re going to do it and they are very good at it. So pretty much all of the recommendations and anything that you see in Facebook, just ignore them all. They’re probably just a tactic to get you to spend more money and put your ads more places that it doesn’t need to be.

Will Hanke – WTMP (22:21)
Great point, great point. So let’s jump into the future. What do you see as the future of digital marketing, advertising, especially for those small and medium sized businesses?

Casey (22:32)
Yeah, man, it’s such a big question. I think the future of advertising is really going to come down to, I kind of touched on a little bit earlier, but I think matching the messaging to the platform that the ad is on is going to be more important than ever. I also think that what we’re seeing with curated feeds, I think

Will Hanke – WTMP (22:35)
Yeah.

Casey (22:58)
targeting is going to be less of a thing because Facebook’s algorithm specifically in terms of matching an audience to like video creative, even if you don’t have text in a caption, like its algorithm and AI knows what you’re saying in a video and knows how to extract that and match it to the people who watch videos like that and then take further actions. It’s crazy what’s going on in the background right now and what we’re seeing.

Will Hanke – WTMP (23:21)
Wow.

Casey (23:26)
I envision less targeting options, probably more data privacy issues like what we saw with iOS and tracking and things like that. I think that’s definitely going to be a learning curve for a lot of us and business owners if they’re doing their own advertising. But I think right now we’re kind of moving towards the commoditization of advertising where platforms are trying to make it as simple as possible for you to spend money with them so that they can

you know, essentially cut out the expert marketers and make it so easy for you to do that you just think you can do it yourself. I see pros and cons to that. And I do think that it’s kind of, it’s kind of like what I would compare to, you know, like a muscle car that runs on gas versus a Tesla. You know, the Tesla,

can drive you everywhere, but is it the safest thing out there? Is it gonna take all the turns that you want it to take, right, in self -driving mode? And is it something that you, like, would you really trust it to completely let your hands off the wheel and just go wherever it wants to take you? Because that’s essentially what it is, except it’s with your dollars. And, you know, that’s kind of what I see happening.

But there will always be, in my opinion, there will always be some sort of manual control behind it to help steer the ship. I do think that will always be, it may look like at like a pro level, like they might separate that between pro and consumer. But I think it’s very interesting. And then I also have my eye on a voice search quite a bit. Yeah.

Will Hanke – WTMP (25:10)
Okay. Voice search inside of Facebook. Okay.

Casey (25:14)
Inside of everything. Yeah. So, I mean, I, I’m really curious to see the integration of AI in Apple devices as well and how their partnership with open AI is going to, I think that’s going to completely redefine search. I also think that, Siri integration and voice assistance and, you know, Chad’s, his voice models and what they’re doing there. I just think it’s too big of a, too big of a move forward, too big of a leap forward to not pay attention to that.

I’m really curious to see what comes up.

Will Hanke – WTMP (25:45)
I love it. That’s going to be fun. It’s going be really cool.

Casey (25:47)
Yeah, yeah, it’s a new challenge, man. But I think it’s all good stuff, you know, I don’t I don’t feel like my life and my job is on the line or anything like that. You know, so far, everything with AI has has helped us, you know, get better at what we do, make more money and help more people. And, you know, so far, it’s been it’s been fantastic for us. So.

Will Hanke – WTMP (25:51)
yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, very cool. What advice would you give to somebody who maybe is just starting out window treatment and awning business or any kind of home services business when it comes to the marketing side of things?

Casey (26:20)
I think it’s really important to find a partner that knows your industry very well. We live in a time where, you know, people like yourself can build an entire business around helping one specific kind of person. And they know the ins and outs of that industry. They work with other people in the space that are doing this at the highest level possible. And I think one of the most important decisions that you can make as a business owner is who do you want to help you with marketing?

And you need to also understand that you can’t do it all yourself. And I mean, you can try, but you’re going to be running a million different directions. An inch, right? Rather than, you know, running a mile deep in one direction and focusing on, on growing your business and running the business itself. Staff your weaknesses really, you know, I don’t, I don’t run my own marketing at all. I outsource it actually for my own marketing.

even though I run a marketing company, I can easily do it. can easily keep it in house, but I want to keep it fresh. And I want to, I want to work with people that have grown businesses like mine specifically. And I work with them to do it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (27:26)
Makes sense, hire people smarter than you to do the things that you probably don’t want to do anyway, right? Cool. Can you recommend any resources, books, courses for businesses that are looking to improve their digital marketing efforts?

Casey (27:31)
Absolutely.

Yeah, I would say there are two books that really did a lot for me. Marketing Made Simple by Donald Miller and The One Page Marketing Plan by Alan Dib, I believe is his name. Both of those were very powerful just to kind of give you like a good rundown on the fundamentals of marketing if you’re just kind of getting into it.

And then of course, I’m a little bit biased if you want to learn Facebook ads, you know, I got a program for that. But for the the foundations of marketing, though, those are two books that I would definitely pick up.

Will Hanke – WTMP (28:07)
Of course, yeah.

Cool. So tell us about the ad school that you have running, how that helps people, what it does. Give us little insight on it.

Casey (28:21)
Yeah. So, you know, like I said, kind of at the, the beginning, I’m the guy that, that trains agencies on, how to run Facebook ads, but we also have clients that are building their in -house media buying team for themselves and they want to, you know, have this in -house and they don’t want to outsource it. And for those people, the program is also great. you know, it’s, basically for agencies or in -house marketing teams. It’ll work for either one. And what we do is we take you from kind of understanding how to run Facebook ads to becoming a world -class media buyer.

And I think that the difference between those two points in space is you need to have the system, the process, and the team to execute Facebook ads at a very high level, and that’s exactly what we teach you.

Will Hanke – WTMP (29:04)
I love it. And if people want to learn more about that, what do they do?

Casey (29:08)
Join ad school .com just head to the website, book a call and watch some videos and take some time and you know, have a, have a conversation with us. it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (29:18)
I love it. I love that you’ve built out something that can help people make this better and not call, you know, not call me and say it. My Facebook ads don’t work right. Or my Google ads don’t work because it’s a conversation we have quite often. And I love, love all the tips that you’ve given us today. Thank you for that.

Casey (29:28)
I’m

Yeah, absolutely. And I think with ad school, it’s been really cool to build something out where, you know, there’s nothing like this in the market. And I think that there’s a lot of programs out there that will try and teach you a specific tactic for Facebook ads. But we take it way deeper than that. And we teach the fundamentals that are underlying behind all of those tactics that gurus out there, you know, try and try and make a quick buck on. This is, you know, I

My goal for the people that go through our program is to be able to pull up an account and immediately know exactly what to fix and why. And that’s the difference maker. And it just doesn’t exist. There’s no other program like it. you know, really, really excited to have built it out and super excited to see how it goes. And the first few people that have gone through it have said some amazing things.

Will Hanke – WTMP (30:11)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I also love that you kind of take a step back and look at the industry, you know, what they’re doing from, you know, from the 10 ,000 foot view. What is it that we’re trying to do to accomplish? Who are the people we need to reach? All that kind of stuff as well, I think is really important.

Casey (30:42)
Absolutely, Yeah, absolutely.

Will Hanke – WTMP (30:44)
Yeah, very cool. Well, thank you, Casey, for your time today. I really do appreciate it. And if you want to learn more about anything Casey has, of course, we’ll have a link to Ad School in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, please join us for more episodes. Make sure you subscribe so that you know every time a new one comes out. And Casey, thank you so much for your time today. I very much appreciate it.

Casey (31:10)
Absolutely, thanks for having me, Will.

Will Hanke – WTMP (31:12)
Thanks, we’ll see you in the next episode everyone, thanks.

Transcript

Will Hanke – WTMP (00:00)
All right, hey everyone, Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business.

Today we’ve got a great service provider who’s also been a friend of mine for a while and does some really great things. And I’m very excited to have him on today. So Casey Richardson is a partner and co -founder at Craft Agency Group and Ad School, specializing in lead generation from Facebook ads. Focusing on niche agencies working with local service providers.

Kraft fills a gap in the white label marketplace, offering Facebook ads at the highest level possible. Casey is known for a data -driven approach and expertise in testing and optimization, making him one of the most sought after strategists in the industry. I’m lucky enough to have him on my podcast today. So Casey, how are you?

Casey (01:01)
Man, I’m doing great. What an intro. Thank you, Will. Appreciate it, man. Happy to be here. Happy to add value however I can.

Will Hanke – WTMP (01:03)
Hahaha

Yeah, so I’m so very excited about Facebook ads. I know you’re doing some fantastic things over there. So for the listeners, I want to get in a little bit to obviously how they can use Facebook ads for their business. You know how you set things up. You know, we’ll kind of get through some different things. But before we get into all of that, why don’t you give me a little bit of background? Give me the story of how you got into the digital marketing world in the first place.

Casey (01:39)
Sure, yeah, man. You know, I was a creative freelancer for 10 years. So I was always doing something in small business, you know, typically around graphic design, photography, video, something in that kind of world. And, you know, one of my more recent ventures, I guess, that kind of like tipped everything over into marketing is I ran a video production business and that agency was actually the first business that I built up to a million dollars a year. And

that one of the things that we came across in that process was like, okay, we film these great videos. Now what does the client do with them? And how do they actually maximize that investment? And we kind of started going into, well, let’s turn these videos into ads and make it more of like commercial campaigns and digital advertising for these businesses. And that kind of really opened my eyes to what digital advertising can do for a local business. And then,

COVID came around. essentially the entire business evaporated overnight. Video production is probably one of the most, like one of the industries that was hit almost as hard as restaurants. There was no production that was happening in person at all during that time. And essentially my entire client base just completely went away. So I did have a couple of clients that I was still managing ads for and

that was kind of the start of, maybe I could turn this into an agency. So I kind of ran that in the background for a little bit. know, money was tight, so I did have to go back and work for the man a little bit. you know, during that COVID time, I started working at Yelp as a sales rep. Your audience will probably have a love -hate relationship with that statement. Most sales reps from Yelp are very not helpful.

And they tend to bombard business owners trying to sell them ads. And I was, I was definitely one of those people, but I was one of the good guys who actually knew what they were doing and, actually did help people. So I learned a lot from that process and that kind of gave me the sales chops that I needed to run an agency. And you know, that, that really opened my eyes to, there are a lot of business owners that have no idea what to do with marketing and they need help. And that opened the door.

to, okay, let’s see what we can do from the advertising side. then one day, one of my clients that was stuck through it all through COVID and everything, I was running his ads and he was getting a ton of great results. He ran a hospitality group, hotel, restaurants, entertainment companies, all kinds of stuff. And he called me up one day and was like, what would it take for you to leave Yelp? And that was a really interesting question. And I had to think about it for a little bit and I threw out a number.

And he didn’t flinch and he was like, yep, come run my marketing department and build it from the ground up. And that was the start of what is today. Craft. So, my, business partner is that same person that used to be a client of mine. and we built up a marketing agency that was initially the in -house marketing team for hospitality group. And then we turn it into an agency, which then led us to serving more agencies through white label, which then turned into ad school, which is the primary focus today.

Will Hanke – WTMP (04:29)
Thanks.

Casey (04:47)
which is training agencies, how to run ads for people like what your audience are. basically when you hire an agency, I’m the guy that trains them.

Will Hanke – WTMP (04:52)
Nice.

Got it, got it, very cool. It’s interesting how we sometimes fall into a career or for a serial entrepreneur. Even then, we kind of fall into new business opportunities. I did something very similar. I would build websites and then just hand them over to the owner and say, OK, good luck. And I had no idea about the marketing end of it. And same thing. Once you started to learn it, you’re like, this is pretty awesome. So yeah.

Casey (05:24)
Yeah, very much so.

Will Hanke – WTMP (05:26)
Very cool, great. So let’s jump in and talk about some different things that our listeners could potentially learn from. One of the things that I wanted to talk about was best practices. I think that’s a good place to start. What are some best practices around running successful ad campaigns?

Casey (05:38)
shirt.

Testing, testing, testing, testing. That’s a big one for me. I’m a huge advocate of listen to the data, not your gut. So a lot of the stuff with advertising that you think will work is probably going to underperform. And the stuff that you never would think would work is going to be some of the top performing creative or copy that you put out into the world. So it’s really important to listen to the data that tells the entire story. So I would say best practice that anyone can take is test as many things as you possibly can. Refresh it.

consistently and listen to the data, not your gut.

Will Hanke – WTMP (06:17)
Totally makes sense. I definitely agree. You should be testing, you know, even other things, your newsletter, subject lines, you know, all these different things. You should always be testing some. So that’s fantastic. When it comes to Facebook ads, I don’t want to dig into the all the different types, but there are different headlines you can test, visuals, copy, you know, is there any order which ones are the best to test first?

Casey (06:36)
yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. So we typically recommend that when you’re setting up a Facebook ad campaign, there’s three main things that move the needle. It’s your creative, which is the visual. Okay. So the photo or the video, then your headline is the second most important. And the third most important is the primary text in the ad. So that’s like your main body copy of the ad. So what we usually recommend is 10 visuals, whether it be images or videos or a combination thereof. And then

five headlines and five primary text variations. And when you multiply all of those combinations together, you get 250 variables that you’re able to test, which is really cool. And that’s how you can test rapidly at scale just by having 10, five, and five. That’s 250 different variations of the same ad, essentially, with the same idea, the same hook. And you can really get some crazy results by doing that.

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:36)
I love that. And you don’t have to come up with 250 different ads, you know.

Casey (07:40)
gosh, Yeah, it’s much easier than that much more leveraged. So

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:45)
Yeah, so the system just takes those different variables, mixes them together, and then lets you know which combination worked the best.

Casey (07:52)
Exactly. Yeah. Yep. But if there’s if there’s one that’s the most important, it’s the visual for sure.

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:54)
Okay.

Because it gets the most attention. guess it’s the first I grab her. Yeah, yeah, totally makes sense. Anything in the home services area, you’ve managed millions in ad spend. Anything in particular that comes to your mind that grabs people’s attention?

Casey (08:01)
Yeah. Absolutely. Yep.

Yeah, I think it actually seems a little counterintuitive, but I’m a big fan of ads that don’t look and feel like ads. I think that with Facebook and Instagram, and I think it’s also important to like, let’s say when I’d say Facebook ads, I’m including Instagram in that. Facebook and Instagram is together and whenever I say Facebook ads. So when we’re talking about, it’s essentially interruption marketing when somebody’s scrolling through their Facebook or Instagram feed and they see an ad.

Will Hanke – WTMP (08:35)
Okay, sure, sure.

Casey (08:46)
So the chances of them engaging with something and being ready to engage with it when they’re in the mindset of, me see what my friends are up to, right? Let me be social. That’s what social media is. It’s let me connect with other people. It’s bringing everybody together, right? So the chances of them seeing an ad and taking an action on that ad are very slim to none. They’re probably just gonna scroll right past it if it feels like an ad, right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (08:55)
Right.

Casey (09:13)
So I’m a very big advocate for matching the messaging and the creative to the platform that you’re advertising on. Okay. So if it looks and feels like something that a friend posted, people are going to resonate with it more and they’re going to be like, who is this? What’s going on? What is the story that I’m reading? And it’s going to have a completely different effect. If it looks and feels like an ad, it’s going to perform like an ad and people are going to want to swipe away from it and not engage in less.

you’re in that very, very narrow window when it’s actually extremely relevant to them and they’re ready to take action. But the chances of that happening in interruption marketing, very slim.

Will Hanke – WTMP (09:50)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think from from me personally, it’s always that’s always been the detractor for running Facebook ads for clients is because what I always say is, you know, they’re they’re looking at cats and babies. They’re not necessarily going on Facebook to look for window treatments, right? Yeah.

Casey (10:09)
Exactly. Yep. But if you have a picture of like the, you know, the, the before and after from the perspective of, like the homeowner, right? Like trying to capture it as, or like a before and after video, that’s like a TikTok real style kind of deal from the perspective of the homeowner. like, I mean, there’s a ton of like remodeling videos and stuff that you can model after and show those before and afters from the perspective of like a user generated style of creative.

Will Hanke – WTMP (10:18)
Yeah.

Casey (10:37)
that matches the platform that it’s on, that’s where you’re gonna see a lot of success.

Will Hanke – WTMP (10:42)
I love it. On the Instagram side, would assume, well, it is photo based, but I know a lot of our clients do very well on Instagram because customers are wanting to imagine what their home could look like, right? So having those kinds of things in the ads could really come across quite well.

Casey (11:02)
Yeah, I think there’s also for home services something to take a look at that we’ve seen kind of it’s it’s it’s hit or miss, but it does surprise me sometimes every time I see it. In home services, if you’re advertising for home services on Facebook, make sure that you’re testing Facebook marketplace for your placement, because a lot of people go to Facebook marketplace when they’re looking for home improvement stuff. OK, or if they’re if they have like a DIY attitude or some sort of, you know,

Will Hanke – WTMP (11:25)
Okay.

Casey (11:29)
So that, that placement right there does a lot. and it’ll surprise me every once in a while. I’m like, wow, okay. We’re completely crushing it on marketplace. Let’s double down on the budget and that placement. Right. So, and then, the only other like really cool piece of advice that I can, that I can come up with is, targeting people who like Home Depot. That’s something that you can engage in. So, and then you can, there’s a bunch of other little tactical things that we can do with it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (11:38)
You

Casey (11:56)
but that’s a good little nugget for anyone. Yeah.

Will Hanke – WTMP (11:59)
I like that. I like that. I like the idea of marketplace because people are in more of a purchasing frame of mind, right? Maybe they’re still researching, but they do have a little bit of purchasing mindset versus seeing what their friends are up to, right?

Casey (12:07)
for sure.

Absolutely, yeah. And it’s important to remember too, like interruption marketing, right? And if we’re advertising to a cold audience that isn’t ready for that purchase right then and there, we need to do what we can to try and figure out where that search intent is and Marketplace is one of those places.

Will Hanke – WTMP (12:33)
Yeah, definitely makes sense. OK, very cool. Let’s talk about AI. So I recently had Jonathan Mast on the podcast. I know you know who he is. And we talked a lot about AI, things that we can do from a customer service perspective. But I would assume there’s things that you can leverage AI for when it comes to creating ads as well.

Casey (12:44)
sure do.

Absolutely, yes. We use AI daily with what we do across hundreds of campaigns. we test at scale. We’re very big on that. So like I said, listen to the data, not your gut. So what we’ll do is we leverage AI for when an ad does really well. We pull the ad copy, and we essentially tell AI, hey, this ad is performing really well. Give me 100 other variations of this.

Will Hanke – WTMP (13:03)
Okay.

Casey (13:26)
Right. And then we take all that and then we test all 100 at scale. and then initially just coming up with the, the first round of ad copy and headlines, we use a really cool approach where we have a very clear prompts. That’s like a two page Google doc prompts that we plug into AI. And we essentially build a really detailed ideal client profile for whoever we’re running the ads for. And then what we do is we attach.

improving copywriting frameworks and very well -known copywriters that are relevant to the niche that we’re operating in. And then we stack that on top of the ICP so that the ad copy is speaking directly to the dream client. And when you combine those things together, you get some really powerful stuff that does not feel like an AI wrote it. It’s very personalized. Yeah. Yeah.

Will Hanke – WTMP (14:09)
Okay.

I like that. That’s cool. very good. Are there any strategies that are specific for lead generation that maybe you guys use more than others?

Casey (14:28)
yeah. Yeah. So, not in terms of AI, just in general, just generating leads. Yeah. I think, you know, it’s, definitely going to depend on, on the niche. So I’m going to try and make this as relevant as I can for your audience. but I, I think, you know, we’re seeing a shift these days where there’s a trust recession. Okay. And what I mean by that is people are, smart and

Will Hanke – WTMP (14:33)
Just in general, yeah, yeah.

you

Casey (14:54)
They understand, know, if they’re giving name, email and phone number out and they’re they’re giving you that contact information as a lead, there needs to be a level of trust that’s built up before you can expect for that exchange to happen now. And more so as we move deeper into the future of marketing and where I see all that going, you know, that trust recession is something that you really have to focus on overcoming.

And the best way to do that is lean into social proof testimonials, know, case studies, before and afters, like build up that trust as much as you possibly can so that people feel comfortable not just giving you their name, email and phone number, but these days they have to envision you like you’re going to come into their home. You’re going to be doing work in their home, in their private lives. Like they want to be able to trust the business that they’re hiring and being in such a world where

Trust in digital marketing is so fragile, right? It really is. And it can be the difference maker between your campaign succeeding or failing just by focusing on how do you build up enough trust to consolidate the timeline that it’s going to take in order for somebody to know, like, and trust you. And you have to compress that timeline as much as possible in digital advertising.

Will Hanke – WTMP (16:06)
Yeah, and I think that speaks to using social media in general, right? I’ve done tests on websites where you can do user testing and say, hey, person, go do this thing on this website and let me know what you think. And one of the things that I got back one time, actually multiple times, was the person would go to the website and click on the social media icons and see if they were up to date, see if they were abandoned.

Casey (16:11)
100%.

Yeah. Right.

Will Hanke – WTMP (16:32)
Right. And that was part of the trust or distrust of the business if they were posting often. And I think if we layer on top of that, the Instagram stuff I mentioned with having great pictures up there, I love your idea of the before and afters. I think people can start to really imagine what their place could look like right on top of that.

Casey (16:49)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, and think about how you can save the consumer some time, right? So if you have over a hundred five -star reviews on Yelp and Google, put that in the ad. And then that saves them from having to Google or Yelp you guys to find out like, is this a reputable company? There’s little things like that that you can do. And of course people are dishonest, but don’t be dishonest, be honest, right? And show like, you can do a five emoji stars and have a 4 .8 rating and say, you know.

Will Hanke – WTMP (17:10)
Right.

you

Casey (17:22)
hundreds of five -star reviews and that’s not a bluff, right? It’s legit. So you can, there’s ways that you can navigate around that, but those are little things that you can do to just compress that timeline of building trust.

Will Hanke – WTMP (17:25)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that’s great. So I want to talk a little bit about the future of advertising. But before we talk about that, I wanted to ask you about common mistakes that people do, business owners do when they’re trying to run ad campaigns. What are the most common things that you see they do wrong?

Casey (17:51)
Testing is a big one. They’re not testing at all. Most people, like when we take over an ad account or when I do an audit on somebody’s account, one of the most common things that I see is they’re running one ad, one version of copy, and they’re spending 10 bucks a day. Right. And then they come to me and they’re like, Casey, my ads aren’t working. Facebook ads doesn’t work for me. It does. Facebook ads will work for you, but you get out of it when you put into it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (17:54)
Right.

Right, it’s not working. Yeah.

Casey (18:19)
Okay, and you have to treat it as a flywheel. You have to keep feeding it. It’s a machine that will eat your creative for breakfast and you need to constantly replenish and test new things. And when you find something that hits, you need to be able to scale that to the moon. So I think to answer your question, there’s two things that I see a lot of is people not testing enough or at all, and also not

putting their skin in the game in terms of budget, enough. And I think that, you know, we like for ad school, we’re running ads right now for our program. You know, my, my budget for the month is $10 ,000 a month in ad spend. And I’m not saying that every local business should be spending $10 ,000 a month, right? I’m running national ads to a very expensive demographic of people. And you know, there’s a lot of factors that go into that. But when we’re talking about a local business that is

providing a service for local homeowners, right? You need to be spending more than 10 bucks a day because the value of your job and what the revenue is that you can bring in from one specific client is high. So it’s okay and completely normal for your customer acquisition costs to be on the higher side of things. But if you’re expecting the world at 10 bucks a day, it’s just not gonna happen, right? Facebook is not the platform for you. So I think you have to be

Will Hanke – WTMP (19:30)
Yeah.

Casey (19:47)
in a place where you’re ready to invest in serious growth. Facebook should not be the platform to solve all of your problems with a low budget. If that’s what you’re looking for, look elsewhere. It’s the gas to the fire. It’s you already have some traction, you already have some recognition and reputation, and you’re ready to scale up to the next level. That’s where Facebook is a really powerful platform to be on.

Will Hanke – WTMP (20:11)
Yeah, yeah, I love it. And it all goes back to the testing piece as well. Right. You even if you have like an ad that’s killing it, it still degrades. Right. As time goes on. So it’s not like you you hit a gold mine and you’re just going to squeeze it for all it’s worth. It’s it’s going to run out. Plus, you have competitors who are probably seeing your ads and probably seeing some of that engagement and then.

Casey (20:16)
Yes.

100 %

Will Hanke – WTMP (20:38)
coming up with something similar, right?

Casey (20:40)
Yep. Yeah. But like when we have an ad that does really well, I’ll take the same exact video script and just change up the background or change the shirt that I’m wearing or, whatever. And we just micro improve the visuals and test different things when we know if we have a foundation that’s working and it’s doing well, let’s take that same foundation and let’s put it in a new environment and see how that does. And there’s different things that you can do to scale, whether it’s vertical with the amount of budget or horizontal.

with the amount of creative and how you’re approaching the campaign as a whole.

Will Hanke – WTMP (21:13)
Yeah, yeah. And I love your comment about the $10 a day. Facebook, Google, all these platforms, ad platforms make it really easy for you to set up an account and start spending money, right? They don’t necessarily have to teach you how to do it well. They just want you to input your credit card and start spending, right?

Casey (21:35)
I love that you brought that up too, because that is something that I see a lot of is, you know, Facebook has this thing called advantage plus, and it’s like they frame it. They frame it as like it’s an advantage for you to use this. I think a lot of business owners don’t realize that Facebook and Google, they’re a business. Their job is like the only way that they make money is through advertising. So if they can find a way, if this multi -billion dollar corporation can find a way

Will Hanke – WTMP (21:42)
Okay.

Right.

Casey (22:03)
to engineer you spending more money with them, they’re going to do it and they are very good at it. So pretty much all of the recommendations and anything that you see in Facebook, just ignore them all. They’re probably just a tactic to get you to spend more money and put your ads more places that it doesn’t need to be.

Will Hanke – WTMP (22:21)
Great point, great point. So let’s jump into the future. What do you see as the future of digital marketing, advertising, especially for those small and medium sized businesses?

Casey (22:32)
Yeah, man, it’s such a big question. I think the future of advertising is really going to come down to, I kind of touched on a little bit earlier, but I think matching the messaging to the platform that the ad is on is going to be more important than ever. I also think that what we’re seeing with curated feeds, I think

Will Hanke – WTMP (22:35)
Yeah.

Casey (22:58)
targeting is going to be less of a thing because Facebook’s algorithm specifically in terms of matching an audience to like video creative, even if you don’t have text in a caption, like its algorithm and AI knows what you’re saying in a video and knows how to extract that and match it to the people who watch videos like that and then take further actions. It’s crazy what’s going on in the background right now and what we’re seeing.

Will Hanke – WTMP (23:21)
Wow.

Casey (23:26)
I envision less targeting options, probably more data privacy issues like what we saw with iOS and tracking and things like that. I think that’s definitely going to be a learning curve for a lot of us and business owners if they’re doing their own advertising. But I think right now we’re kind of moving towards the commoditization of advertising where platforms are trying to make it as simple as possible for you to spend money with them so that they can

you know, essentially cut out the expert marketers and make it so easy for you to do that you just think you can do it yourself. I see pros and cons to that. And I do think that it’s kind of, it’s kind of like what I would compare to, you know, like a muscle car that runs on gas versus a Tesla. You know, the Tesla,

can drive you everywhere, but is it the safest thing out there? Is it gonna take all the turns that you want it to take, right, in self -driving mode? And is it something that you, like, would you really trust it to completely let your hands off the wheel and just go wherever it wants to take you? Because that’s essentially what it is, except it’s with your dollars. And, you know, that’s kind of what I see happening.

But there will always be, in my opinion, there will always be some sort of manual control behind it to help steer the ship. I do think that will always be, it may look like at like a pro level, like they might separate that between pro and consumer. But I think it’s very interesting. And then I also have my eye on a voice search quite a bit. Yeah.

Will Hanke – WTMP (25:10)
Okay. Voice search inside of Facebook. Okay.

Casey (25:14)
Inside of everything. Yeah. So, I mean, I, I’m really curious to see the integration of AI in Apple devices as well and how their partnership with open AI is going to, I think that’s going to completely redefine search. I also think that, Siri integration and voice assistance and, you know, Chad’s, his voice models and what they’re doing there. I just think it’s too big of a, too big of a move forward, too big of a leap forward to not pay attention to that.

I’m really curious to see what comes up.

Will Hanke – WTMP (25:45)
I love it. That’s going to be fun. It’s going be really cool.

Casey (25:47)
Yeah, yeah, it’s a new challenge, man. But I think it’s all good stuff, you know, I don’t I don’t feel like my life and my job is on the line or anything like that. You know, so far, everything with AI has has helped us, you know, get better at what we do, make more money and help more people. And, you know, so far, it’s been it’s been fantastic for us. So.

Will Hanke – WTMP (25:51)
yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, very cool. What advice would you give to somebody who maybe is just starting out window treatment and awning business or any kind of home services business when it comes to the marketing side of things?

Casey (26:20)
I think it’s really important to find a partner that knows your industry very well. We live in a time where, you know, people like yourself can build an entire business around helping one specific kind of person. And they know the ins and outs of that industry. They work with other people in the space that are doing this at the highest level possible. And I think one of the most important decisions that you can make as a business owner is who do you want to help you with marketing?

And you need to also understand that you can’t do it all yourself. And I mean, you can try, but you’re going to be running a million different directions. An inch, right? Rather than, you know, running a mile deep in one direction and focusing on, on growing your business and running the business itself. Staff your weaknesses really, you know, I don’t, I don’t run my own marketing at all. I outsource it actually for my own marketing.

even though I run a marketing company, I can easily do it. can easily keep it in house, but I want to keep it fresh. And I want to, I want to work with people that have grown businesses like mine specifically. And I work with them to do it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (27:26)
Makes sense, hire people smarter than you to do the things that you probably don’t want to do anyway, right? Cool. Can you recommend any resources, books, courses for businesses that are looking to improve their digital marketing efforts?

Casey (27:31)
Absolutely.

Yeah, I would say there are two books that really did a lot for me. Marketing Made Simple by Donald Miller and The One Page Marketing Plan by Alan Dib, I believe is his name. Both of those were very powerful just to kind of give you like a good rundown on the fundamentals of marketing if you’re just kind of getting into it.

And then of course, I’m a little bit biased if you want to learn Facebook ads, you know, I got a program for that. But for the the foundations of marketing, though, those are two books that I would definitely pick up.

Will Hanke – WTMP (28:07)
Of course, yeah.

Cool. So tell us about the ad school that you have running, how that helps people, what it does. Give us little insight on it.

Casey (28:21)
Yeah. So, you know, like I said, kind of at the, the beginning, I’m the guy that, that trains agencies on, how to run Facebook ads, but we also have clients that are building their in -house media buying team for themselves and they want to, you know, have this in -house and they don’t want to outsource it. And for those people, the program is also great. you know, it’s, basically for agencies or in -house marketing teams. It’ll work for either one. And what we do is we take you from kind of understanding how to run Facebook ads to becoming a world -class media buyer.

And I think that the difference between those two points in space is you need to have the system, the process, and the team to execute Facebook ads at a very high level, and that’s exactly what we teach you.

Will Hanke – WTMP (29:04)
I love it. And if people want to learn more about that, what do they do?

Casey (29:08)
Join ad school .com just head to the website, book a call and watch some videos and take some time and you know, have a, have a conversation with us. it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (29:18)
I love it. I love that you’ve built out something that can help people make this better and not call, you know, not call me and say it. My Facebook ads don’t work right. Or my Google ads don’t work because it’s a conversation we have quite often. And I love, love all the tips that you’ve given us today. Thank you for that.

Casey (29:28)
I’m

Yeah, absolutely. And I think with ad school, it’s been really cool to build something out where, you know, there’s nothing like this in the market. And I think that there’s a lot of programs out there that will try and teach you a specific tactic for Facebook ads. But we take it way deeper than that. And we teach the fundamentals that are underlying behind all of those tactics that gurus out there, you know, try and try and make a quick buck on. This is, you know, I

My goal for the people that go through our program is to be able to pull up an account and immediately know exactly what to fix and why. And that’s the difference maker. And it just doesn’t exist. There’s no other program like it. you know, really, really excited to have built it out and super excited to see how it goes. And the first few people that have gone through it have said some amazing things.

Will Hanke – WTMP (30:11)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I also love that you kind of take a step back and look at the industry, you know, what they’re doing from, you know, from the 10 ,000 foot view. What is it that we’re trying to do to accomplish? Who are the people we need to reach? All that kind of stuff as well, I think is really important.

Casey (30:42)
Absolutely, Yeah, absolutely.

Will Hanke – WTMP (30:44)
Yeah, very cool. Well, thank you, Casey, for your time today. I really do appreciate it. And if you want to learn more about anything Casey has, of course, we’ll have a link to Ad School in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, please join us for more episodes. Make sure you subscribe so that you know every time a new one comes out. And Casey, thank you so much for your time today. I very much appreciate it.

Casey (31:10)
Absolutely, thanks for having me, Will.

Will Hanke – WTMP (31:12)
Thanks, we’ll see you in the next episode everyone, thanks.

Guest Profile: LuAnn Nigara

LuAnn Nigara is a dynamic media personality, keynote speaker and seasoned entrepreneur, best known as an original founder of Window Works in Livingston, New Jersey, and current co-owner of Exciting Windows. She is the host of the top rated podcast, A Well Designed Business, and the founder of LuAnn Nigara Inc., which supports creative entrepreneurs through live events. Luann University and coaching. Luann’s newest podcast, Window Treatments for Profit, focuses on the custom window treatment industry. She serves on the National Board of the Window Coverings Association of America and regularly contributes to industry publications.

Other Notes/Links:

To learn more about LuAnn Nigara visit:

https://luannnigara.com/

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

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Video

https://youtu.be/msy5BXuBDFw

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Transcript

Will Hanke – WTMP (00:00)
All right, hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes where we dive deep into marketing strategies and tools that drive success in the window treatment and awning industries. Today, I’m excited to have LuAnn Magara with us, a true expert in the window treatment field. So LuAnn, thank you so much for jumping on today. I really do appreciate it.

LuAnn Nigara (00:25)
my goodness, Will, I’m so happy to be here with you. Thank you.

Will Hanke – WTMP (00:27)
Yeah, yeah. So let me read your bio so we know who you are. LuAnn Nigara is a dynamic media personality, keynote speaker and seasoned entrepreneur, best known as an original founder of Window Works in Livingston, New Jersey, and current co -owner of Exciting Windows. She is the host of the top rated podcast, A Well Designed Business, and the founder of LuAnn Nigara Inc., which supports creative entrepreneurs through live events.

Luann University, which we’ll talk a little bit more about later, and coaching. Luann’s newest podcast, Window Treatments for Profit, focuses on the custom window treatment industry. She serves on the National Board of the Window Coverings Association of America and regularly contributes to industry publications. That’s pretty awesome, pretty impressive, quite honestly.

LuAnn Nigara (01:19)
Sounds good, doesn’t it?

Will Hanke – WTMP (01:22)
Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah. So thanks so much for being on. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, we can always make something that sounds really good about ourselves. So give me a little background about how you got into the window treatment world.

LuAnn Nigara (01:24)
We all sound better in print, don’t we?

Well, I met a man that I fell in love with. His name was Vin Nigara. And he had just opened Window Works about six months prior. And I actually had met him when we were dating. And at one point during our dating, he opened Window Works. And about six months after him opening Window Works, I found myself in a job that I hated.

Will Hanke – WTMP (01:42)
Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (02:03)
And of course we’re going out for our dinner dates and so forth and I’m complaining, blah, blah, blah. And he’s like, what do you want to do? And I’m like, I got to get back into sales. I have to get back into sales. This is driving me crazy, know, blah, blah, blah. And he’s like, well, I started this window treatment company. Like if you want to do that for a little bit until you find something else, you could do that. And I’m like, what are window treatments? You know? And so he said, well, you know, back then in 1982, was

Will Hanke – WTMP (02:27)
you

LuAnn Nigara (02:32)
Verisols, Levolor mini -blinds, and Luverdrape verticals. And I said to him, sure, you know what? I mean, I could sell water to a fish, let’s go. And so that was, like I said, in 1982. if I met him and he was selling IBM computers, I would probably have a podcast now that services IBM computer industry. But that’s how it was. I I joined the company and

Will Hanke – WTMP (02:53)
You

That’s great.

LuAnn Nigara (03:01)
really, really enjoyed it. And of course, together, Vinnie and myself and our cousin Bill grew the company up to four plus million dollars over the four decades. And that’s the start of it, though.

Will Hanke – WTMP (03:13)
Wow, congratulations. That’s pretty impressive though. I love that. I love that you stumbled into it as of a lot of people do in the industry, right?

LuAnn Nigara (03:20)
Right, it’s so true. I don’t know anybody that grew up saying, I can’t wait to grow up and sell blinds. We all just get here some crazy way, right? Lots of people like, they have a passion for sewing and they were selling window treatments for their friends and their neighbors or others like this, their husband, wife, mother, brother, sister was doing it or they started out installing it when they were in high school. You know, it’s crazy, but.

Will Hanke – WTMP (03:22)
Yeah.

Right.

LuAnn Nigara (03:48)
It sure is a mishmash of ways that we all get here, but it’s fun, right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (03:52)
It is a lot of fun. Yeah, a lot different. And I still get the same kind of questions. You do what for who? Right? That’s a thing.

LuAnn Nigara (03:59)
It’s a very tight niche, right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (04:04)
Yeah, yeah, it is. So thank you. Thank you for that. You’ve got quite a resume. I’d like to just jump in a couple different main topics today while I’ve got your time, if that’s OK. Leadership and training, I know you know a lot about that. Talk a little bit about sales, since that’s really what your bread and butter is. And then if we have time, scaling window treatment business, I’d love to hear kind of your overview thoughts on that.

and then any trends. I’d like to get into anything that you’re seeing in the world. But let’s start out with leadership. What kind of qualities do you believe are essential for somebody who wants to run a window treatment business? What kind of qualities do they really need to have?

LuAnn Nigara (04:36)
Okay. Sure.

You know, it’s funny because most of us start out as the chief cook, bottle maker, and all the things, right? So I think that to actually run a window treatment company, you obviously need your core skill set. You need to know your product. You need to know how to install it, possibly if you’re going to be the installer. You need to know how to sell it if you’re going to be the salesperson. But I think what happens is

the leadership that’s necessary to run a owner -operator type company, right? So owner -operator is I’m the owner, I’m also the salesperson, or I’m the owner, I’m also the installer, I’m the owner, I’m the admin, and maybe I’ve got a salesperson installer, but the owner is a true operator in the business. I think that is a little bit more of grit, not taking no for an answer.

Will Hanke – WTMP (05:35)
Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (05:47)
willing to do whatever it takes to get it done. And I think most of us that start a business have that. But what happens is, as we grow our business a little bit, and we are managing somebody other than our one or two employees or our partner or a family member or whatever it might be, now that’s when leadership needs to really…

That’s when you have to be a self -aware person. You have to, as a leader, think you have to know yourself very well and know what your strengths are. But more importantly, you need to know your gaps. You need to know your weaknesses because a strong leader is going to hire for their gaps and not be intimidated that the other person has superpowers different than yours. A leader needs to appreciate that the leader’s job is to put…

Will Hanke – WTMP (06:34)
Right.

LuAnn Nigara (06:39)
all of the right people in each of the needed seats and not get hung up on the names of who those people are in the seats, but the right personalities, the right skill sets in those seats. And then with grace and humility, lead that team to success. And that then becomes the juggling act of managing and communicating and having

a thorough training process and a support process and really taking the time to understand the different people that work for you and understanding that, you know, one person might be motivated by sales and reward of money. Another person might be motivated by recognition and a pat on the back. Another person might be motivated by perks and days off. And I think leaders who forget that, that just remember what it took

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:18)
you

Mm

LuAnn Nigara (07:36)
for them to get out of bed in the morning, which was a carrot at the end of a stick, and I’m gonna go get it. The mistake that the emerging leader can make is not really, number one, finding the right people to compliment them, but then number two, understanding the fact that they are different, they’ll have different motivators, and if you ignore that and don’t delve into it, you’ll constantly struggle to find a team that marches in harmony, because you’re not really,

speaking to them as individuals. You need to run the team as a unit, but it runs as a unit when everybody individually knows their goal and feels invested in the goal and feels rewarded for their part in getting to the goal. I mean, there’s 16 ,000 books on it, but that’s like a synopsis in my mind, I think.

Will Hanke – WTMP (08:20)
Right. Right.

Yeah, you know, for the first 15, 17 years of my business, I knew somebody who was a John Maxwell expert and they’re the certified coach and they did the disc profiles and all that kind of stuff, right? But I didn’t get it. And one day I was like, personalities, different personalities, you treat them different ways. And it really just opens up the world like I’m horrible at follow through.

LuAnn Nigara (08:36)
cool.

Yes.

Yes.

Will Hanke – WTMP (08:53)
very low on that scale, but I’m a quick start. I can get stuff going and push it down the line and then I don’t know what happens. But understanding that there are other people that have that follow through that can help me pull up that slack and complete the job.

LuAnn Nigara (08:56)
Yes. Yes.

You’re so right. And so many of us that start companies, we are more that person. Quick start, let’s go. We got it. We’ll get it done. And then it’s all of a sudden, like, who’s doing all the details? And I remember in the beginning of our career, in my 20s, when I would interview people for the role of, say, office administrator, I remember so often making the mistake of, in the interview process,

tossing back the people who were more quiet, that weren’t as gregarious, that were more thoughtful, that it took them longer to respond because it’s not my groove. Like I walk fast, talk fast, do things fast. And when you then hire somebody who’s like you, I was learning, I got somebody like me. And the thing is, that’s the mistake of the beginning mistakes of leadership. It wasn’t like I had the

Will Hanke – WTMP (09:55)
you

LuAnn Nigara (10:04)
wherewithal as a young leader to be saying to myself, you hired somebody very much like yourself, LuAnn. This is a sales personality. This is an outgoing personality. No wonder they’re not doing the details in the office. I would just be like, I don’t understand why you don’t do the details. I don’t understand why you don’t get the orders done. I don’t understand why you’re not checking confirmations. And then as you said, you get exposed through different things. You’re like, I actually want that quiet contemplative person that takes their time, that reads through things.

Will Hanke – WTMP (10:30)
Right.

LuAnn Nigara (10:34)
and we give them the question slow and easy and we wait for the answer, but when we leave the room, they get all the work done that we don’t have the skill set to do. So that’s a perfect example, Will, that you brought up of that, totally.

Will Hanke – WTMP (10:42)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I couldn’t believe all the years I went through being a business owner and not getting that, you know, especially when I would see presentations by this lady and all that stuff. yeah, that’s real nice. You know, but eventually it clicked. So the other thing you mentioned is right person, right seat. I don’t know if you’re familiar with EOS, but that’s a big that’s a big EOS thing is right person, right seat. It’s more about the seat than it is the name, as you mentioned.

LuAnn Nigara (11:03)
It’s true.

Yeah. yeah. yeah. Yeah.

That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. And that’s also a tough thing to break as an emerging leader. You have a person that’s a great person, reliable person. You’re like, well, of course they can do that. It’s like, that’s not really what they’re good at. What do we need done then find the person to do that, right? So these are all the things we learn the hard way. But maybe younger leaders will listen to us, Will, and they don’t have to make these mistakes.

Will Hanke – WTMP (11:17)
in hiring.

It is. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about training. You mentioned training. How important is continuous training and development for the staff once you’ve kind of come to that point where you’ve got people under your leadership and they need to continually be doing stuff for you?

LuAnn Nigara (11:42)
You

Yeah, I think it’s critical. mean, it’s so funny because everything I know about this I’ve learned from my cousin Eileen Hahn, who is a leadership expert and organizational behavioral expert and also our very own window treatment, Jessica Harling from Behind the Design. These two ladies, yeah, these two ladies are absolutely brilliant at helping us out here develop the training programs that

Will Hanke – WTMP (12:17)
yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (12:31)
truly enable the people who work for us to be their best, to show up as their best, and to be supported in doing that. And I know that both Jessica and Eileen are consistently stressing that we need to do weekly stand -up meetings with each person, and the 90 -day meetings, and the yearly meetings. And I also know from experience that many of us small business owners skip this step.

And I can tell you over the years we’ve been good and bad at it. I know Vinny from the very beginning always had team meetings with us, so he built that in. But the individual employee meetings when we started to grow beyond our core, you me, Vin, and Bill, they, you know, it’s a slippery slope. You get busy and it goes by the wayside. But when we intentionally have brought them back over, you know, many years at this point, they pay dividends.

And so you can invest in your team by sending them to the Sunshade Expo or the IWCE or a lot of times people will join exciting windows, art organization and they are salespeople. train them every month. I do trainings with the salespeople and stuff. And you can do it that way, but you also can invest in your team and training them as individuals just by having half hour weekly conversations with them.

You have so much knowledge in your head of the things that you’ve done that a simple conversation about their last sales appointment or their last installation actually impacts them in both an educational way, but also in that personal pouring into them way that they feel like they are on the same team as you and working towards the same goal. So constant training and development and then training and development for you as a leader.

Will Hanke – WTMP (14:22)
Yeah. Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (14:27)
I mean, come on, it gets harder. The more years you’re in business, the bigger your business grows, the more complicated it gets. And you know, the stakes are higher. So you really do need to always be investing in yourself as well.

Will Hanke – WTMP (14:30)
You

Yeah, great. That was my next question was what about as an owner? What kind of coaching should you seek out? I think it’s one of the best things I ever did was realize that I don’t know at all and that I need somebody to help guide me down the path, hopefully to success, right?

LuAnn Nigara (14:58)
Yes, yeah. I mean, that’s our whole mission at Exciting Windows is helping window treatment professionals build a better business. you know, we have businesses in there that are doing $200 ,000 a year gross revenue to 10, 15, 20, $30 million a year. there’s we have workrooms, we have retailers, we have, you know, you know, all the things, it’s all the different business models. And it is

It is so enlightening when you get to spend quality time with someone that is two steps ahead of you on the path. So if your business is doing $500 ,000 a year and you’ll have a goal to hit $750 ,000, to be able to spend quality time with somebody that’s at $750 or a million, or I remember when we joined Exciting Windows, we were doing $1 .8, and the conversations that we were having with the businesses that were already involved, I think of Galaxy Drive.

Draperies and Rick Baker who was hitting three at that point and it was like wow everything he’s going through we’re about to hit and So that you don’t know at you don’t know what you don’t know that take that to the bank you don’t know what you don’t know and Why invent the wheel when you can invest in yourself with coaching or through the different? Things that are available in the industry to like, you

cut the line and go to the head of the class. You know I’m saying?

Will Hanke – WTMP (16:22)
Yeah, for sure. And a lot of times they’ll have resources for you and things. I’ve done that. I know how to do that. Just go do this. So it saves on the research side too of how in the world do I solve this problem? You’ve got a coach or somebody to help you through it.

LuAnn Nigara (16:36)
Exactly.

Exactly. 100%.

Will Hanke – WTMP (16:37)
I love that. That’s awesome. Yeah. What are your thoughts on weekly meetings with like your sales team around like going through the leads? Hey, let’s look at these different leads. Why did we get this one? Why did we lose this one? What do you think about that?

LuAnn Nigara (16:56)
100%. yeah, we have standing Monday meetings. First is the team meeting. I’m no longer an owner of Window Works, but Vin and I kind of hover as chairmen of the board. And so I still continue to attend the Monday morning team meeting and then the Monday morning sales meeting that follows that immediately after the team meeting. And it’s exactly what it is. It’s we are going back two weeks and we’re every single lead you’ve been on, sold, problem, issue.

Will Hanke – WTMP (17:20)
you

LuAnn Nigara (17:25)
something that went good, something you need help with. We’re looking ahead at the next week, what’s on the plate, what do you’ve got. Every single Monday, we are reviewing our company sales to date versus last year. At that point, we are reviewing our company month to date sales versus the goal for that month versus where we were last year at that point. And we are personally reviewing each salesperson’s

sales to date versus their goal for the year and versus where they were last year at the same point. And so it’s a constant reset and re -evaluation. And I have to tell you, we’ve had on more than one occasion remarkable things by our salespeople that have happened just because of this meeting. So I can recall

It was, don’t know, I’m so bad at numbers, but let’s just see if I can try it. So let’s say it was probably in May and we were at a sales meeting. It was the last Monday of the month. So whatever month it was, it was the last Monday of the month and we had five selling days left because we don’t work on Saturday and Sunday. And the following Monday, whatever it was, started a new month. And we were…

something like 160 ,000 under goal with five selling days left. And we’re all like, whoa. Right? Like the whole sales team is like, what you talking about? Well, it’s like, right? And so I know how we’ve overcome this in past years. And I said, okay, okay, time out, time out. Let’s just take five into 160 ,000. And of course there’s a number. You don’t think I know it, right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (18:52)
Okay.

LuAnn Nigara (19:14)
And then I said, now take that number and divide it by the four of you. There’s four of you. And when it came down to it, it was something like each salesperson had to do like $7 ,300 a day for five days in a row to get to that goal. And if you’re trying to add that math up, I made it all up in my head. It’s not going to work. But I’m just saying, ultimately what worked was it was like $7 ,300, $7 ,800 a day. And then…

Will Hanke – WTMP (19:30)
Right.

Thank you.

LuAnn Nigara (19:44)
I didn’t even have to say it. They all were like, that’s like one great sale a day, right? And I’m like, guys, you should be able to go back through your unclosed deals and dig that out of the hat without even a big shovel up the hill, right? And do you know the following Monday we sat there and they killed the goal.

Will Hanke – WTMP (19:50)
Right.

Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (20:06)
But if you were just like, my God, there’s five days left in the month, we have to hit on your 60 ,000 in sales, we’re never gonna do it. Everybody cry river, call your mama, I don’t know what we’re gonna do, and just go about your day. But now every day, like I’m walking through the building the next day, I’m like, okay, where you at? Did you hit your 73? Then one person like, I hit it. I’m like, that’s great. I did 16, five yesterday, great. Okay, do it again today, blah, blah. And so tracking data, monitoring data, having conversations about data, taking the,

Will Hanke – WTMP (20:28)
you

LuAnn Nigara (20:36)
the boohoo skills about the data out of the room and putting it into a manageable bite -sized chunk that you can handle is all the difference in the world in like going down with the ship or succeeding, right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (20:53)
Yeah, yeah, and you can do this whether you have one salesperson or ten, right? I mean, it doesn’t matter the size of the company. You should still do it.

LuAnn Nigara (21:03)
For many years, I was the primary salesperson at Window Works. We had, in the beginning, three showrooms, and I was the salesperson for one showroom, then I became the salesperson for two showrooms. And when I tell you, literally, just about every morning at breakfast, my beloved husband would say, your sales goal for today is… And almost every night at dinner, he’d say, did you hit your goal, sweetie? You know what I’m saying? I mean, it was just like there was no world.

Will Hanke – WTMP (21:28)
That’s funny.

LuAnn Nigara (21:32)
where we weren’t aware on a daily, weekly, monthly basis what we were going after. Because if you don’t set a sales goal,

You’re not going to get a sales goal. what do you, you know what I mean? Every day is just up for grabs and this was a hard day. I think I’ll pack it in at four. But if your goal is 7 ,300 and you are at zero, you’re not packing it in at four. You’re like, I got two hours left on the day. I got to get stuff done. Right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (21:45)
Yeah.

I love that, yeah. Talking about sales, you’ve kind of transitioned us a little bit into the sales side of things. So what are the key steps in your sale process at Window Works that are the most important?

LuAnn Nigara (22:15)
Well, at Window Works, we follow the Make a Friend seven -step sales process developed by Steve Burston. And that class is now available through Luann University. We also run the class live the day before our CEO conference every fall. And so that is open to any window treatment professional. They can take it through Luann University by Zoom, or they can take it in person when we have our annual CEO conference.

And the whole basis of it, I mean, it’s called the make a friend, you know, seven step sales process. It’s you need to in sales, make a relationship. If you are just getting up and thinking about what’s in it for me, and I’ve got to close this, you know, it’s no, it’s like, you got to figure out what’s the solution for this person. What’s the thing that they really need. And consumers have varying degrees of skill at being able to communicate what their actual needs are. You know, I mean, somebody could tell you,

Will Hanke – WTMP (23:12)
Right?

LuAnn Nigara (23:14)
I need, you all know, you’ve all been there. I need it to be completely room darkening. And then you start having a conversation like, well, I don’t mean it to be that dark. And you’re like, okay, sweetie, room darkening means a thing. Okay. But I mean, you’ve been there when you get to the end of the conversation, you’re like, so you don’t want it to be like I call it Las Vegas dark. You don’t want it to be when you wake up in the morning, you don’t know if it’s two o ‘clock in the morning or two o ‘clock in the afternoon.

no, I like to wake up with the sun. Okay. So then we need like control and we need like dimming, but we don’t need room darkening. And the whole thing about approaching sales from a relationship standpoint is you’re not just coming in the door to sell a product. Somebody asks for room darkening, you bring a room darkening product out of your car, you put it on the table, you measure it, you pick a color and you leave. No, the salesperson that’s going to be effective

and is going to actually drive big numbers and have a good body of work with repeat and referral clients is the salesperson who is what I call not an order taker. It’s, you know what? I appreciate you’ve told me. I don’t say these things out loud to people, but in my brain, I appreciate you told me what you want, but I’m actually here to discover what you want. I’m here. My role is to ask you enough questions, to present enough scenarios to you that

Will Hanke – WTMP (24:35)
Yes.

LuAnn Nigara (24:41)
I ultimately understand your needs so well that now I’m only presenting the options that will meet those needs, that function, design, and price investment need. so sales is a process. It takes time. And if you are phoning it in or trying to be an order taker, you’re going to have a modicum of success, but you’re not going to…

transcend and really build a sales book for yourself with repeat and referral clients that call you for decades.

Will Hanke – WTMP (25:14)
Yeah, what you said is hugely important. I can’t tell you how many years I went through sales. First of all, dreading the idea of being a salesperson in the first place, right? Because I thought I had to be an order taker. If I get on the call with somebody, they have to say yes at the end of it. And that was definitely not the right way to go about it. But it’s the way that I thought sales were for so many years.

LuAnn Nigara (25:26)
You

Yeah, now it’s a discovery process. The best salesperson is a curious, inquisitive person that is trying to truly understand the objectives of their consumer and find the product at the right price point with the right decor aesthetic to fit that need. And when you do that, you write deals. You write business.

Will Hanke – WTMP (26:02)
Yeah, yeah. I love the idea of the make a friend. I did know Steve and he was a dynamic personality in the first place, right? It’s hard for him not to make a friend, I guess.

LuAnn Nigara (26:09)
Yeah.

Ugh. Gosh, right?

Yeah, it’s the truth. It’s the truth. And Jessica Harling, who I mentioned a few moments before, she, I had spent time teaching this Make a Friend seven step course, but now Jessica teaches it for us. And she actually wildly and coincidentally spent the last three to four months right up to Steve’s death last year in 2023 revising

the Make a Friend program. The core is there. The core is exactly what it was, but updating the numbers, making sure that it was appropriate numbers and estimates that we’re using now. And then also, Jessica has expanded and broadened the content to make it appropriate to the interdesign industry as well. But she did it hand in hand and side by side with Steve, which was really very special.

Will Hanke – WTMP (27:11)
Love that Jessica’s been on our show, and we’re actually going to have her back on again to talk about some stuff. So yeah, I love that you guys use her for some of your stuff. She works with a lot of our clients. So let’s talk about objections. What kind of objections do you tend to encounter, and how do you address them and move the sale forward?

LuAnn Nigara (27:17)
good! Yeah…

Yeah. yeah.

So that’s a big question, right? I would say that I think my biggest point of view on objections is that you have to, no matter what the objection is, think the intentional, the professional salesperson understands that the objection is simply indicating to you, you have not finished your job yet.

If you take it under that perspective, then you take all the sting out of it. If you literally, if you have an objection, whether I have to ask my husband or I don’t think the price is right or I don’t care what it is, if your brain says, I haven’t completed my job, I haven’t finished, something is undone here, then you move from

Holy cow, what am I gonna do? This is crazy, I’m pissed and blah, blah to, okay, what’s my step back? Where do I have to go back and regroup? Okay, and the thing is, there’ll be times when you have a clue yourself where you’re like, you know, I feel like we didn’t button it up when we were talking about, you know, the price. Like she agreed to it, but I could kind of see she was a little waffly on it. And so maybe that’s the thing. You know, I always tell salespeople is ask the question.

What exact, you know, people say whatever, you know, it’s, we’re in a conversation. And if we have started it from our very first interaction with the phone call to spending anywhere from the half hour to an hour and a half in their home, you’re entitled to ask a question. So if somebody says,

my goodness, that’s ridiculous. I can’t believe it. That’s so much money. I never thought it was going to be that much money. First of all, in seven step class, we teach you to never hear that sentence. Okay. We teach you how to mitigate and avoid that. But if you do hear it, you’re, know, my always things tell salespeople is just say, that’s interesting. Based on what? Like I didn’t think it was going to be that much money. Okay. Why? Based on what? Well, I mean, I just didn’t.

Okay, so this is just, this is not a real conversation, right? Or, you know, somebody else was out here and they gave me an estimate. Okay, now we’re getting somewhere, right? was that an estimate on the same product and you know, all the things? It absolutely was. Well, I’m gonna, I don’t know, you know, Will, I sold window treatments for 40 years. I’m gonna tell you what, if 20 times somebody told me they had an estimate for the exact same products, exact same things that was lower,

Will Hanke – WTMP (29:47)
you

LuAnn Nigara (30:17)
I’m gonna tell you maybe two times at a 20, it actually was an apples and apples quote and lower 98 % of the time. It is not, it is, I had somebody recently, I actually had to come out and do some window treatment sales two winters ago, Kimberly our number one inside sales person at Window Works was on maternity leave. And I was like, my God, I gotta like dust off and go do this again, right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (30:24)
Right. Yeah.

Ha

LuAnn Nigara (30:42)
And I had given an entire quote to, for a townhouse locally here, for a designer who then presented it to his client. And he comes back with this crazy email. my goodness, I can’t believe it. I’m so embarrassed. My client’s got a quote. Your quote is $24 ,000. Their quote is more than $5 ,000 less. How could you put me in this position? And I’m like, you know what? Take a chill pill here. Why don’t we just relax for a moment?

Will Hanke – WTMP (31:11)
Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (31:12)
And so I don’t respond in the email when somebody’s upset. I’m not coming back in an email. So when we talk about objections, this is a huge objection. So I’m picking up the telephone and I’m saying, hey, this doesn’t happen. I’m around the bush a couple of times. We are fair and we’re competitive. You need to get me that quote. And because now I can talk level with him. I’m not talking direct to the consumer, but even to the consumer, I would have said, hey, I understand.

However, we need to verify that it’s apples and apples. The long story short of it is, it was like, you know, how many windows, 16 windows, 10 windows, whatever it was, PowerView. Well, I had quoted Arcatella, PowerView, and all of the windows, now everybody that does window treatment is gonna know what this means. I would tell you 70 % of the windows were the same size and they were 49 inches by 73 inches.

Will Hanke – WTMP (32:11)
Okay.

LuAnn Nigara (32:11)
We all know that that is one inch wider than the inside break and two, you know, one inch longer than the outside break, right? Like the length break. And the other quote was applause. And every window was like 46 by 70 because the homeowner had measured it themselves and given the dimensions to someone over the phone to get the quote. And I just, now,

Will Hanke – WTMP (32:35)
yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (32:41)
That doesn’t mean a lot to people outside of our industry, but everybody listening knows, Architella motorized, to applause, motorized with a width and a length differential on 60 or 70 % of the windows. This is no wonder. So it’s like, my thing is, take your objections, whatever they are, as the opportunity to do more digging. Just stay calm, stay in the moment, stay relaxed.

Stay non -confrontational, stay curious, right? And just say, that’s interesting, help me understand. How could that possibly be? That’s not normal. We’re in business many years. We’re fairly priced. And then ask for the quote. And most people are making it up. They’re making it up. well, I mean, I just did. okay. Well, did you really then? That’s awesome.

Will Hanke – WTMP (33:35)
I remember years ago when I was getting into sales, and of course I was scared to death, right? So somebody had a set of flashcards. And basically it was, the customer says this, reply with this, right? And it was great. At first, I thought this was the greatest thing ever. But what I quickly realized was I was missing the piece about making the friend. And it became more of just a robotic thing.

Most times it just made it worse, right? It wasn’t making the sale any better. Yeah. It was just, this guy’s, this guy’s a robot.

LuAnn Nigara (34:05)
That’s right.

No, you have to listen. You have to listen. Yes, you have to listen. And the thing is, when you’re listening, you’re getting the cues for what the actual pain points are and what their motivators and drivers are. And if you’re too busy getting ready with your next question or your next answer without truly listening to what they’re saying, you’re missing every opportunity that would enable you

to get to a resolution and get to a good sale for that person.

Will Hanke – WTMP (34:42)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Any good tips on kind of closing the deal, negotiating techniques that maybe have worked well for you?

LuAnn Nigara (34:53)
You know, here’s the biggest one, ask for the money. So many people get up to the point and they don’t ask for the money. Like, how would you like to pay for this? You know, do you want, let’s get this started today. Are you ready to go? I mean, that it sounds simple, but that is, I would tell you, if anybody is, if they are not closing at about 60 % of their leads,

the projects they go on, they probably can raise their closing ratio by eight or 10 points if they just pay attention to how many times they’re like, okay, well, you know, I guess you’ll call me, you’ll let me know, or, you know, if you this or I’ll email you, it’s like, just ask for the check. So, and then negotiation, negotiation is.

Will Hanke – WTMP (35:30)
you

you

LuAnn Nigara (35:49)
Again, that is a listening process. I have a presentation that I do on successful negotiation. It’s based on my dialogue framework and there’s eight steps to it. You can’t skip any of the steps, but the steps are easy to learn when you think of them as a human. Like to your point, it’s not flashcards, right? You’ve got to at each step engage as a human. And when you’re negotiating with somebody, you’ve got to first hear what they’re saying.

And then you have to reframe and qualify for them. This is what I understood you to say. This is what I understood you to want. Is that correct? And sometimes you’re right. And sometimes you’re like, whoa, I missed it. And then they tell you again. And then you reframe again. And then you’re looking for the meeting ground. You’re looking for the thing that you can both agree on. Sometimes it’s a negotiation of money. A lot of times it’s offering more services.

If I add this to the pot, are we good to go today? If I can also provide this, would you do the project with me today? That sort of thing. We have so many things at our disposal. Offering to do free paper shades. All kinds of that. Offering a free install. Offering an extended warranty. If I put this in. But the thing is, if you’re offering the person

know, free paper shades who just said to you, after we’re done this sales appointment, I’m going to my beach house for a month. Will the shades be ready when I get back? What do they care about paper shades? They don’t care about paper shades. So, but that’s the thing. That’s what’s the one of the places that salespeople will make a mistake is A, not asking directly for the sale, but B, not paying attention.

to what actually is the motivator and the thing that a person wants. So when it comes time to negotiate, you either offer that or you take it away. You say, well, at this price, I was willing to give you that. But if you want me to go to that price, I got to pull that off the table. And if you’re pulling off something off the table that they don’t need, well, then you just gave your price away. But if you’ve been listening and paying attention and you know what they need and you pull it back,

Well, I want that. That’s great. Then let’s go ahead with this agreed upon price. You know what I mean? Look, we negotiate all day long. We negotiate with our kids. We negotiate with our spouses. know, all you got to do is do it with your consumer, with your eaters engaged, and it’s so much easier.

Will Hanke – WTMP (38:18)
Yeah. Yeah. The one thing that I didn’t hear you mention was defaulting straight to discount or a percent off. Right? It sounds like we can add these things on as an additional value add for you if you’re willing to close today versus just defaulting to the passive position of, OK, would you like 10 % off, please? Please take my deal.

LuAnn Nigara (38:28)
forget that. Let’s go.

Yes.

Right. No, yeah. You can count on two hands a number of times, I have taken money off a deal in four decades. And if and when I do, I’m getting something else. I’m getting something else. I’m never just like, you asked for 10 off, okay, you can have it. It’s like, no, we gotta have a conversation about this. have to, even if I’m not getting something else, I have to be able to justify it to them in a way that…

Will Hanke – WTMP (38:54)
Right.

LuAnn Nigara (39:14)
They understand it wasn’t just an arbitrary, I took $1 ,000 off or $100 off or $10 ,000 off because that just leaves such a bad taste. Anytime I’m on the other end of a sales process and somebody easily, quickly will just lower the price, I’m like, wait a minute. So if I didn’t say, but I overpaid, that, I can not stand that. And so it’s, am against

Will Hanke – WTMP (39:34)
Right. Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (39:43)
discounting in a negotiation as a first level, second level, third level thing because of both things. I’m inherently competitive and I want my dollar, but I also know it just cheapens our reputation and our company for no reason whatsoever and you lose the respect of that consumer. And so those are both very powerful motivators for me to continue to my

Will Hanke – WTMP (40:01)
Thanks.

LuAnn Nigara (40:14)
skill set as a salesperson to do better.

Will Hanke – WTMP (40:17)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. Never devalue yourself for no reason at all, right? That’s silly to do that.

LuAnn Nigara (40:25)
No, because it doesn’t feel good to the other person either. That’s the thing.

Will Hanke – WTMP (40:29)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, definitely they’re going to immediately have a slightly different thought about the service that they’re getting even weeks later at the install. They’re like, well.

LuAnn Nigara (40:38)
Yeah. Yeah. They’re happy about saving the money, but that you’ve just got to ding to your reputation with them. That’s the truth of it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (40:44)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. So I wanna switch gears a little bit and talk about scaling real quick. What advice do you have to owner, business owners that are looking to scale their businesses up? What pitfalls should they be aware of?

LuAnn Nigara (41:02)
Well, here’s the thing. It is an absolute non -negotiable that if you and, first of all, I believe every business should have documented SOPs, but it is a non -negotiable if you expect to scale your business. You must absolutely determine how you do all the things in your business because you don’t think you have a way, but you do.

You do, even if you have been a solo entrepreneur with one person answering your phone and one person installing for you, you have a way that you do it. And the second that you mistake that you’re gonna hire one other salesperson or one other installer to come in and do work with your company and you have not documented your way, you are going to consistently like have these trips and stumbles where

Will Hanke – WTMP (41:38)
All

LuAnn Nigara (41:56)
the other people on your behalf are not going out and behaving and delivering to your consumer what you have set as your standard. We can have 1 ,000 window treatment companies. We can all do it a different way. But within the company, if I have a deliverable of my sales experience or my installation experience, and every installer and every salesperson that works for me has to deliver it the same way. Because if

Sally Smith calls, you know, Bill’s Blinds and they have one experience and then she refers her sister, know, Karen, Sal, whoever, to Bill’s Blinds and she has a different experience. The two sisters are like, what company did you work with? Like, they did great by me. Well, they did horrible. never called me back. You know, and that just messes with your brand. It messes with your profitability. And what happens is,

Will Hanke – WTMP (42:39)
you

LuAnn Nigara (42:52)
Internally, you’re just looking around going, what’s going on? Why is the business not growing? And it’s because you haven’t set the stage for growth with a very thoughtful look at how do you do it. I mean, as simple as how do you answer the phone? Like, that is like the silliest example, but it is so true. Everyone should answer the phone the same way.

Will Hanke – WTMP (43:14)
Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (43:18)
And I don’t care if you say, hi, it’s Bill’s Blinds. Can I help you? I don’t say it’s Bill’s Blinds, it’s a great day. I don’t care what you say. But if you all answered a different way, that automatically tells me you have no way of doing anything. Because you haven’t sat and figured out what you stand for, how you do it, and how you will deliver your client experience. And so if you want to scale, you got to lock that down.

Will Hanke – WTMP (43:41)
Great example, we had a client who’s one of the salespeople was answering, hello, hello. And that was it. And they’re like, my god.

LuAnn Nigara (43:47)
my God. my God, it’s my pet peeve. my God, that’s my pet peeve. My thing is your name and the company name. You have to say both of them somehow, some way. I can’t stand when I call a company and A, they don’t say their name. So I’m not like, did I dial right? Is this right? And then B, they don’t say their name. I don’t want to say what’s your name because you know what happens when you say what’s your name to somebody?

It sometimes feels aggressive, right? Like when you’re dealing with somebody on the phone and they are like, okay, I’m gonna have Will call you back or whatever like this. If they haven’t shared their name already with me and I go, okay, that’s great, what’s your name? It almost feels like I’m getting your name so if Will doesn’t call me back, I’m telling him you didn’t tell me, right? And it’s like, and that’s not what you want. You just really wanna know who the person is so you can say, I spoke to Sally earlier, Will, she’s great, right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (44:34)
yeah, yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (44:44)
So it’s got it, like it’s such a simple thing, but it is, you can just hit on one of my pet peeves, it makes me crazy.

Will Hanke – WTMP (44:51)
We’ve got a fast food place here in town that does that. pull up and they say, welcome to, I think it’s Culver’s, welcome to Culver’s. This is Sally. How can I help you? You know, something like that. And of course my response is, hey, Sally, I’d like your triple cheese, you know, whatever. But it feels a lot more fruitful just because of that.

LuAnn Nigara (45:03)
Right. Right.

Exactly.

Right. Exactly.

Will Hanke – WTMP (45:14)
Yeah. So how can window treatment companies leverage technology? My favorite thing in the world, right? How can they kind of leverage technology to build those SOPs and some of those things that they now realize they need to do?

LuAnn Nigara (45:29)
Yeah, well, I mean, there’s so much out there, right? So whether, first of all, I think every window treatment company, no matter what size they are, should have some vehicle for capturing their consumer data, right? Some sort of CRM. So whatever you use, I don’t care if you use an Excel spreadsheet, honest to God, I don’t care where your level of tech is.

Of course, I love it better if it is some sort of level of tech that you’re capturing all of the information about your existing consumers, the leads that you didn’t sell, all of that stuff. And then you can then tag and do email marketing through it. All of the things that I know are your superpower because, you need a record. We just had a customer at Window Works today. I walked through to get my lunch out of the refrigerator and Kim says to me, Lou, Patty Ahmad.

Will Hanke – WTMP (45:54)
you

LuAnn Nigara (46:23)
What did you sell her the last time? And I just looked at her, I was like, wait, what? And she said, yeah, she’s on the phone. And she goes, she moved to Colorado and she’s working with one of your exciting Windows members out there. And she just realized they’re coming to see her tomorrow and she wants to know what did you sell her? Now, I’m gonna tell you what, the first time I sold to Patty Ahmaud, she built a house in 1989. Okay, I remember it because my daughter was six months old and her daughter was one month old.

Will Hanke – WTMP (46:46)
OK.

LuAnn Nigara (46:52)
And they ended up, we lived in different towns and 10 years later, we all ended up moving to another town and moving to the same town. And when we moved to that town, she built in that town and we did window treatments there. So she has been my customer since 1989. And the thing was, I said to her, I said, listen, most of the work that she did was sell shades. I said, I think in a family room we did woven woods. I said, we did exterior roller shades.

Will Hanke – WTMP (47:02)
the world.

LuAnn Nigara (47:21)
probably maybe 10 years ago and Kim goes, you know what, let me look it up. And there she goes. She goes into our CRM and she pulls all the orders up. Now, we didn’t have the orders from 1989, not quite as savvy in 1989, but we did have the orders going back as far as like 2005. And so, you know, like your CRM is…

Will Hanke – WTMP (47:32)
All

LuAnn Nigara (47:44)
Look, if you use Solitech to quote and place your orders, I love Ray, love it all day long. These are things that can increase your efficiency. If you’re using ClickUp or monday .com or Airtable, all things that can increase your efficiency. But for me, if you’re not tech savvy, the non -negotiable is some form of a CRM to capture your consumer data and enable you to

continually email and stay in front of them throughout the years.

Will Hanke – WTMP (48:17)
Yeah, yeah, totally agree. One of the big things that helped my business grow was we built a system called lead boomerang and it is a CRM on steroids. It handles the lead, whether they come from a Google My Business or they come from your website or they just used your chat widget, whatever it is, you know, everything goes into this one place. You have one central location to do all that. It’s by far the biggest, most important tool that our clients have.

LuAnn Nigara (48:27)
Mm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s 2024, folks. It’s non -negotiable.

Will Hanke – WTMP (48:49)
Right? Fair enough. Fair enough.

LuAnn Nigara (48:52)
You know, I’m older than dirt and even I know that.

Will Hanke – WTMP (48:55)
Yeah, yeah. So as we wrap up, thank you again for all of your time that you spent. I really do appreciate it. Wanted to ask you about emerging trends. What are you seeing specifically for our industry? And how can business owners kind of take advantage of these trends?

LuAnn Nigara (49:12)
Well, I have to say, feel like it’s, look, the outdoor space, it’s been on fire since COVID, okay? So I don’t know that I would actually call it so much an emerging trend. mean, Window Works, Vin started selling exterior awnings in like 84. He, 1984, he was like, we, our mission is to filter light at the window, he said. And he’s like, what’s the difference if we do it from inside or outside? But.

Will Hanke – WTMP (49:32)
Okay.

LuAnn Nigara (49:41)
absolutely since COVID. And the thing about it is, is the reason I use that as an emerging trend is because I think anybody that reads window fashion vision that is in the industry goes to the events, the sunshade expo and all that. You probably all went, okay, snooze. But my question is how many of you are actually leaning into it and selling exterior products? We have a member at Exciting Windows that at the beginning of the year,

we were all having a conversation about exterior products and Vinny has just been hammering, guys, guys, guys, it’s been a thing, it’s a thing, if you don’t get on it now, you’re behind the thing, like you gotta do it. And this one business went from averaging $200 ,000 a year in gross sales to this year is projecting at 800 ,000. And the difference in the gross sales is exterior products.

and it’s a woman -owned business. And so she just looked at Vinny and she said, okay, I’m gonna do exterior shades where I’m gonna do exterior awnings. And we have at our conferences are sponsored by companies that do exterior shades and exterior awnings. And so our members get a chance to meet these companies, see the products in person. But so my thing is, is, you know, my daughter, I used to always say the cliches, you know, the thing, whatever it is. And she’d be like, mom, that’s what you call shade. And I’m like, you know,

It’s a cliche because it’s true. when everybody’s like, snooze exterior products, my next question is, and how many have you sold this year? So if you’re selling hundreds of thousands, great, go ahead snooze and you pick a different trend. But if you are still just listening that this is the trend you’re not doing, then I say, how about you do it and you tell me what the next trend is going to be.

Will Hanke – WTMP (51:34)
Yeah, yeah, that’s I love that you said that. I’d say two years ago, five to seven percent of our clients did exterior. And right now that number is probably closer to twenty five to thirty. It’s definitely something that our clients are adding on.

LuAnn Nigara (51:49)
See? And until it’s 100%, it’s, yeah, yeah. And it’s an untapped market. And it is a great place to add a revenue stream, a profitable revenue stream to your business. Is there a learning curve? Yeah. But I mean, there was a point when you didn’t have a measure and sell a drape either. You’re a smart person. You’ll figure it out.

Will Hanke – WTMP (51:57)
It is.

That’s 100 % true. And that is an argument I hear is, I have to hire installers or train installers to do something totally different. OK, well, then do it. I mean, you did that. Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (52:18)
Aw, you’re right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know what? There are products that require a different learning curve for an installer, but you know what? A good technician is a good technician. They’ll figure it out. They will. Yeah.

Will Hanke – WTMP (52:38)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think if we start talking about margins on the exterior stuff, that might get some of their attentions too. From what I understand, they’re a little bit higher. So that’s a motivation technique as well.

LuAnn Nigara (52:51)
Well, and also too at this point, right? And when you talk about it as being an emerging trend, there is an opportunity to not have 15 quotes in the project.

Will Hanke – WTMP (53:06)
Yep, yeah, agree. Thank you. I really am glad that you said that. It’s something I’ve been watching for a while now and it’s interesting how many more clients are adding that on. So LuAnn, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your insights today. I appreciate your time. For those listeners that want to learn more about you, LuAnn University, all the different things you’re up to, your podcasts, where can they go to find you?

LuAnn Nigara (53:18)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Thank you, Will. I really did appreciate this conversation. Such great questions. So much fun. know, everything lives on luannigara .com. So on luannigara .com, you can find the Well Designed Business podcast, which we’ve hit over thousand episodes at this point. And that is business conversations pretty much centered on the interior design industry and the struggles a designer goes through. We also have Window Treatments for Profit, where we talk with our homies.

over there about all the things that we do and how we run our window treatments, our window treatment businesses. LuAnn University is where we teach you what they don’t teach you. First of all, the window treatment industry doesn’t have a college or a university. And the design industry, even if you are university taught or certified, they’re not teaching you the business side. So we are taking on over there the marketing, the sales classes, all of the things.

at Luann University that it’s just hard to go learn anywhere. And we are doing them facing the design and the window treatment industry. So the information comes at you relevant to where you are. And that’s luannuniversity.com. And I would say to you, Will, we are going to open registration for the next semester of Luann University in right around the time this show is airing. And the next session will run in 2025, the new year.

And if they go to luannuniversity.com, if they select any five week course and they use the code WILL, W -I -L -L, they can get $250 off of a course. So that’s for your listeners. And then finally, I would just say, we would love to have you also check us out at ExcitingWindows. And that’s excitingwindows .biz, all right? B -I -Z, not com. So excitingwindows .biz, where we, you know, we…

help you build a better business.

Will Hanke – WTMP (55:27)
Awesome. Thank you. And thank you for the promo code. I love that. And especially that they have to put in my name. That’s the best part of that, I think. But thank you. Thank you again for your expertise. It’s been fantastic. Good. Good. As a listener, you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, don’t forget to subscribe to Marketing Pains for more engaging discussions on window treatments and awnings, businesses.

LuAnn Nigara (55:32)
Yeah.

That’s it, right? That’s fun.

This was great. Yeah, this has been a lot of fun. I appreciate you.

Will Hanke – WTMP (55:55)
the marketing, all the different things that we have to do every day. And until next time, stay inspired and keep enhancing your spaces. LuAnn, thank you so much for being on today. I really do appreciate it.

LuAnn Nigara (56:08)
Thank you, Will.

Will Hanke – WTMP (56:08)
Awesome. Hey, that was fantastic. Let me hit the stop button here.

LuAnn Nigara (56:13)
Great, great, thank you.

Transcript

Will Hanke – WTMP (00:00)
All right, hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes where we dive deep into marketing strategies and tools that drive success in the window treatment and awning industries. Today, I’m excited to have LuAnn Magara with us, a true expert in the window treatment field. So LuAnn, thank you so much for jumping on today. I really do appreciate it.

LuAnn Nigara (00:25)
my goodness, Will, I’m so happy to be here with you. Thank you.

Will Hanke – WTMP (00:27)
Yeah, yeah. So let me read your bio so we know who you are. LuAnn Nigara is a dynamic media personality, keynote speaker and seasoned entrepreneur, best known as an original founder of Window Works in Livingston, New Jersey, and current co -owner of Exciting Windows. She is the host of the top rated podcast, A Well Designed Business, and the founder of LuAnn Nigara Inc., which supports creative entrepreneurs through live events.

Luann University, which we’ll talk a little bit more about later, and coaching. Luann’s newest podcast, Window Treatments for Profit, focuses on the custom window treatment industry. She serves on the National Board of the Window Coverings Association of America and regularly contributes to industry publications. That’s pretty awesome, pretty impressive, quite honestly.

LuAnn Nigara (01:19)
Sounds good, doesn’t it?

Will Hanke – WTMP (01:22)
Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah. So thanks so much for being on. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, we can always make something that sounds really good about ourselves. So give me a little background about how you got into the window treatment world.

LuAnn Nigara (01:24)
We all sound better in print, don’t we?

Well, I met a man that I fell in love with. His name was Vin Nigara. And he had just opened Window Works about six months prior. And I actually had met him when we were dating. And at one point during our dating, he opened Window Works. And about six months after him opening Window Works, I found myself in a job that I hated.

Will Hanke – WTMP (01:42)
Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (02:03)
And of course we’re going out for our dinner dates and so forth and I’m complaining, blah, blah, blah. And he’s like, what do you want to do? And I’m like, I got to get back into sales. I have to get back into sales. This is driving me crazy, know, blah, blah, blah. And he’s like, well, I started this window treatment company. Like if you want to do that for a little bit until you find something else, you could do that. And I’m like, what are window treatments? You know? And so he said, well, you know, back then in 1982, was

Will Hanke – WTMP (02:27)
you

LuAnn Nigara (02:32)
Verisols, Levolor mini -blinds, and Luverdrape verticals. And I said to him, sure, you know what? I mean, I could sell water to a fish, let’s go. And so that was, like I said, in 1982. if I met him and he was selling IBM computers, I would probably have a podcast now that services IBM computer industry. But that’s how it was. I I joined the company and

Will Hanke – WTMP (02:53)
You

That’s great.

LuAnn Nigara (03:01)
really, really enjoyed it. And of course, together, Vinnie and myself and our cousin Bill grew the company up to four plus million dollars over the four decades. And that’s the start of it, though.

Will Hanke – WTMP (03:13)
Wow, congratulations. That’s pretty impressive though. I love that. I love that you stumbled into it as of a lot of people do in the industry, right?

LuAnn Nigara (03:20)
Right, it’s so true. I don’t know anybody that grew up saying, I can’t wait to grow up and sell blinds. We all just get here some crazy way, right? Lots of people like, they have a passion for sewing and they were selling window treatments for their friends and their neighbors or others like this, their husband, wife, mother, brother, sister was doing it or they started out installing it when they were in high school. You know, it’s crazy, but.

Will Hanke – WTMP (03:22)
Yeah.

Right.

LuAnn Nigara (03:48)
It sure is a mishmash of ways that we all get here, but it’s fun, right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (03:52)
It is a lot of fun. Yeah, a lot different. And I still get the same kind of questions. You do what for who? Right? That’s a thing.

LuAnn Nigara (03:59)
It’s a very tight niche, right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (04:04)
Yeah, yeah, it is. So thank you. Thank you for that. You’ve got quite a resume. I’d like to just jump in a couple different main topics today while I’ve got your time, if that’s OK. Leadership and training, I know you know a lot about that. Talk a little bit about sales, since that’s really what your bread and butter is. And then if we have time, scaling window treatment business, I’d love to hear kind of your overview thoughts on that.

and then any trends. I’d like to get into anything that you’re seeing in the world. But let’s start out with leadership. What kind of qualities do you believe are essential for somebody who wants to run a window treatment business? What kind of qualities do they really need to have?

LuAnn Nigara (04:36)
Okay. Sure.

You know, it’s funny because most of us start out as the chief cook, bottle maker, and all the things, right? So I think that to actually run a window treatment company, you obviously need your core skill set. You need to know your product. You need to know how to install it, possibly if you’re going to be the installer. You need to know how to sell it if you’re going to be the salesperson. But I think what happens is

the leadership that’s necessary to run a owner -operator type company, right? So owner -operator is I’m the owner, I’m also the salesperson, or I’m the owner, I’m also the installer, I’m the owner, I’m the admin, and maybe I’ve got a salesperson installer, but the owner is a true operator in the business. I think that is a little bit more of grit, not taking no for an answer.

Will Hanke – WTMP (05:35)
Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (05:47)
willing to do whatever it takes to get it done. And I think most of us that start a business have that. But what happens is, as we grow our business a little bit, and we are managing somebody other than our one or two employees or our partner or a family member or whatever it might be, now that’s when leadership needs to really…

That’s when you have to be a self -aware person. You have to, as a leader, think you have to know yourself very well and know what your strengths are. But more importantly, you need to know your gaps. You need to know your weaknesses because a strong leader is going to hire for their gaps and not be intimidated that the other person has superpowers different than yours. A leader needs to appreciate that the leader’s job is to put…

Will Hanke – WTMP (06:34)
Right.

LuAnn Nigara (06:39)
all of the right people in each of the needed seats and not get hung up on the names of who those people are in the seats, but the right personalities, the right skill sets in those seats. And then with grace and humility, lead that team to success. And that then becomes the juggling act of managing and communicating and having

a thorough training process and a support process and really taking the time to understand the different people that work for you and understanding that, you know, one person might be motivated by sales and reward of money. Another person might be motivated by recognition and a pat on the back. Another person might be motivated by perks and days off. And I think leaders who forget that, that just remember what it took

Will Hanke – WTMP (07:18)
you

Mm

LuAnn Nigara (07:36)
for them to get out of bed in the morning, which was a carrot at the end of a stick, and I’m gonna go get it. The mistake that the emerging leader can make is not really, number one, finding the right people to compliment them, but then number two, understanding the fact that they are different, they’ll have different motivators, and if you ignore that and don’t delve into it, you’ll constantly struggle to find a team that marches in harmony, because you’re not really,

speaking to them as individuals. You need to run the team as a unit, but it runs as a unit when everybody individually knows their goal and feels invested in the goal and feels rewarded for their part in getting to the goal. I mean, there’s 16 ,000 books on it, but that’s like a synopsis in my mind, I think.

Will Hanke – WTMP (08:20)
Right. Right.

Yeah, you know, for the first 15, 17 years of my business, I knew somebody who was a John Maxwell expert and they’re the certified coach and they did the disc profiles and all that kind of stuff, right? But I didn’t get it. And one day I was like, personalities, different personalities, you treat them different ways. And it really just opens up the world like I’m horrible at follow through.

LuAnn Nigara (08:36)
cool.

Yes.

Yes.

Will Hanke – WTMP (08:53)
very low on that scale, but I’m a quick start. I can get stuff going and push it down the line and then I don’t know what happens. But understanding that there are other people that have that follow through that can help me pull up that slack and complete the job.

LuAnn Nigara (08:56)
Yes. Yes.

You’re so right. And so many of us that start companies, we are more that person. Quick start, let’s go. We got it. We’ll get it done. And then it’s all of a sudden, like, who’s doing all the details? And I remember in the beginning of our career, in my 20s, when I would interview people for the role of, say, office administrator, I remember so often making the mistake of, in the interview process,

tossing back the people who were more quiet, that weren’t as gregarious, that were more thoughtful, that it took them longer to respond because it’s not my groove. Like I walk fast, talk fast, do things fast. And when you then hire somebody who’s like you, I was learning, I got somebody like me. And the thing is, that’s the mistake of the beginning mistakes of leadership. It wasn’t like I had the

Will Hanke – WTMP (09:55)
you

LuAnn Nigara (10:04)
wherewithal as a young leader to be saying to myself, you hired somebody very much like yourself, LuAnn. This is a sales personality. This is an outgoing personality. No wonder they’re not doing the details in the office. I would just be like, I don’t understand why you don’t do the details. I don’t understand why you don’t get the orders done. I don’t understand why you’re not checking confirmations. And then as you said, you get exposed through different things. You’re like, I actually want that quiet contemplative person that takes their time, that reads through things.

Will Hanke – WTMP (10:30)
Right.

LuAnn Nigara (10:34)
and we give them the question slow and easy and we wait for the answer, but when we leave the room, they get all the work done that we don’t have the skill set to do. So that’s a perfect example, Will, that you brought up of that, totally.

Will Hanke – WTMP (10:42)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I couldn’t believe all the years I went through being a business owner and not getting that, you know, especially when I would see presentations by this lady and all that stuff. yeah, that’s real nice. You know, but eventually it clicked. So the other thing you mentioned is right person, right seat. I don’t know if you’re familiar with EOS, but that’s a big that’s a big EOS thing is right person, right seat. It’s more about the seat than it is the name, as you mentioned.

LuAnn Nigara (11:03)
It’s true.

Yeah. yeah. yeah. Yeah.

That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. And that’s also a tough thing to break as an emerging leader. You have a person that’s a great person, reliable person. You’re like, well, of course they can do that. It’s like, that’s not really what they’re good at. What do we need done then find the person to do that, right? So these are all the things we learn the hard way. But maybe younger leaders will listen to us, Will, and they don’t have to make these mistakes.

Will Hanke – WTMP (11:17)
in hiring.

It is. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about training. You mentioned training. How important is continuous training and development for the staff once you’ve kind of come to that point where you’ve got people under your leadership and they need to continually be doing stuff for you?

LuAnn Nigara (11:42)
You

Yeah, I think it’s critical. mean, it’s so funny because everything I know about this I’ve learned from my cousin Eileen Hahn, who is a leadership expert and organizational behavioral expert and also our very own window treatment, Jessica Harling from Behind the Design. These two ladies, yeah, these two ladies are absolutely brilliant at helping us out here develop the training programs that

Will Hanke – WTMP (12:17)
yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (12:31)
truly enable the people who work for us to be their best, to show up as their best, and to be supported in doing that. And I know that both Jessica and Eileen are consistently stressing that we need to do weekly stand -up meetings with each person, and the 90 -day meetings, and the yearly meetings. And I also know from experience that many of us small business owners skip this step.

And I can tell you over the years we’ve been good and bad at it. I know Vinny from the very beginning always had team meetings with us, so he built that in. But the individual employee meetings when we started to grow beyond our core, you me, Vin, and Bill, they, you know, it’s a slippery slope. You get busy and it goes by the wayside. But when we intentionally have brought them back over, you know, many years at this point, they pay dividends.

And so you can invest in your team by sending them to the Sunshade Expo or the IWCE or a lot of times people will join exciting windows, art organization and they are salespeople. train them every month. I do trainings with the salespeople and stuff. And you can do it that way, but you also can invest in your team and training them as individuals just by having half hour weekly conversations with them.

You have so much knowledge in your head of the things that you’ve done that a simple conversation about their last sales appointment or their last installation actually impacts them in both an educational way, but also in that personal pouring into them way that they feel like they are on the same team as you and working towards the same goal. So constant training and development and then training and development for you as a leader.

Will Hanke – WTMP (14:22)
Yeah. Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (14:27)
I mean, come on, it gets harder. The more years you’re in business, the bigger your business grows, the more complicated it gets. And you know, the stakes are higher. So you really do need to always be investing in yourself as well.

Will Hanke – WTMP (14:30)
You

Yeah, great. That was my next question was what about as an owner? What kind of coaching should you seek out? I think it’s one of the best things I ever did was realize that I don’t know at all and that I need somebody to help guide me down the path, hopefully to success, right?

LuAnn Nigara (14:58)
Yes, yeah. I mean, that’s our whole mission at Exciting Windows is helping window treatment professionals build a better business. you know, we have businesses in there that are doing $200 ,000 a year gross revenue to 10, 15, 20, $30 million a year. there’s we have workrooms, we have retailers, we have, you know, you know, all the things, it’s all the different business models. And it is

It is so enlightening when you get to spend quality time with someone that is two steps ahead of you on the path. So if your business is doing $500 ,000 a year and you’ll have a goal to hit $750 ,000, to be able to spend quality time with somebody that’s at $750 or a million, or I remember when we joined Exciting Windows, we were doing $1 .8, and the conversations that we were having with the businesses that were already involved, I think of Galaxy Drive.

Draperies and Rick Baker who was hitting three at that point and it was like wow everything he’s going through we’re about to hit and So that you don’t know at you don’t know what you don’t know that take that to the bank you don’t know what you don’t know and Why invent the wheel when you can invest in yourself with coaching or through the different? Things that are available in the industry to like, you

cut the line and go to the head of the class. You know I’m saying?

Will Hanke – WTMP (16:22)
Yeah, for sure. And a lot of times they’ll have resources for you and things. I’ve done that. I know how to do that. Just go do this. So it saves on the research side too of how in the world do I solve this problem? You’ve got a coach or somebody to help you through it.

LuAnn Nigara (16:36)
Exactly.

Exactly. 100%.

Will Hanke – WTMP (16:37)
I love that. That’s awesome. Yeah. What are your thoughts on weekly meetings with like your sales team around like going through the leads? Hey, let’s look at these different leads. Why did we get this one? Why did we lose this one? What do you think about that?

LuAnn Nigara (16:56)
100%. yeah, we have standing Monday meetings. First is the team meeting. I’m no longer an owner of Window Works, but Vin and I kind of hover as chairmen of the board. And so I still continue to attend the Monday morning team meeting and then the Monday morning sales meeting that follows that immediately after the team meeting. And it’s exactly what it is. It’s we are going back two weeks and we’re every single lead you’ve been on, sold, problem, issue.

Will Hanke – WTMP (17:20)
you

LuAnn Nigara (17:25)
something that went good, something you need help with. We’re looking ahead at the next week, what’s on the plate, what do you’ve got. Every single Monday, we are reviewing our company sales to date versus last year. At that point, we are reviewing our company month to date sales versus the goal for that month versus where we were last year at that point. And we are personally reviewing each salesperson’s

sales to date versus their goal for the year and versus where they were last year at the same point. And so it’s a constant reset and re -evaluation. And I have to tell you, we’ve had on more than one occasion remarkable things by our salespeople that have happened just because of this meeting. So I can recall

It was, don’t know, I’m so bad at numbers, but let’s just see if I can try it. So let’s say it was probably in May and we were at a sales meeting. It was the last Monday of the month. So whatever month it was, it was the last Monday of the month and we had five selling days left because we don’t work on Saturday and Sunday. And the following Monday, whatever it was, started a new month. And we were…

something like 160 ,000 under goal with five selling days left. And we’re all like, whoa. Right? Like the whole sales team is like, what you talking about? Well, it’s like, right? And so I know how we’ve overcome this in past years. And I said, okay, okay, time out, time out. Let’s just take five into 160 ,000. And of course there’s a number. You don’t think I know it, right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (18:52)
Okay.

LuAnn Nigara (19:14)
And then I said, now take that number and divide it by the four of you. There’s four of you. And when it came down to it, it was something like each salesperson had to do like $7 ,300 a day for five days in a row to get to that goal. And if you’re trying to add that math up, I made it all up in my head. It’s not going to work. But I’m just saying, ultimately what worked was it was like $7 ,300, $7 ,800 a day. And then…

Will Hanke – WTMP (19:30)
Right.

Thank you.

LuAnn Nigara (19:44)
I didn’t even have to say it. They all were like, that’s like one great sale a day, right? And I’m like, guys, you should be able to go back through your unclosed deals and dig that out of the hat without even a big shovel up the hill, right? And do you know the following Monday we sat there and they killed the goal.

Will Hanke – WTMP (19:50)
Right.

Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (20:06)
But if you were just like, my God, there’s five days left in the month, we have to hit on your 60 ,000 in sales, we’re never gonna do it. Everybody cry river, call your mama, I don’t know what we’re gonna do, and just go about your day. But now every day, like I’m walking through the building the next day, I’m like, okay, where you at? Did you hit your 73? Then one person like, I hit it. I’m like, that’s great. I did 16, five yesterday, great. Okay, do it again today, blah, blah. And so tracking data, monitoring data, having conversations about data, taking the,

Will Hanke – WTMP (20:28)
you

LuAnn Nigara (20:36)
the boohoo skills about the data out of the room and putting it into a manageable bite -sized chunk that you can handle is all the difference in the world in like going down with the ship or succeeding, right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (20:53)
Yeah, yeah, and you can do this whether you have one salesperson or ten, right? I mean, it doesn’t matter the size of the company. You should still do it.

LuAnn Nigara (21:03)
For many years, I was the primary salesperson at Window Works. We had, in the beginning, three showrooms, and I was the salesperson for one showroom, then I became the salesperson for two showrooms. And when I tell you, literally, just about every morning at breakfast, my beloved husband would say, your sales goal for today is… And almost every night at dinner, he’d say, did you hit your goal, sweetie? You know what I’m saying? I mean, it was just like there was no world.

Will Hanke – WTMP (21:28)
That’s funny.

LuAnn Nigara (21:32)
where we weren’t aware on a daily, weekly, monthly basis what we were going after. Because if you don’t set a sales goal,

You’re not going to get a sales goal. what do you, you know what I mean? Every day is just up for grabs and this was a hard day. I think I’ll pack it in at four. But if your goal is 7 ,300 and you are at zero, you’re not packing it in at four. You’re like, I got two hours left on the day. I got to get stuff done. Right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (21:45)
Yeah.

I love that, yeah. Talking about sales, you’ve kind of transitioned us a little bit into the sales side of things. So what are the key steps in your sale process at Window Works that are the most important?

LuAnn Nigara (22:15)
Well, at Window Works, we follow the Make a Friend seven -step sales process developed by Steve Burston. And that class is now available through Luann University. We also run the class live the day before our CEO conference every fall. And so that is open to any window treatment professional. They can take it through Luann University by Zoom, or they can take it in person when we have our annual CEO conference.

And the whole basis of it, I mean, it’s called the make a friend, you know, seven step sales process. It’s you need to in sales, make a relationship. If you are just getting up and thinking about what’s in it for me, and I’ve got to close this, you know, it’s no, it’s like, you got to figure out what’s the solution for this person. What’s the thing that they really need. And consumers have varying degrees of skill at being able to communicate what their actual needs are. You know, I mean, somebody could tell you,

Will Hanke – WTMP (23:12)
Right?

LuAnn Nigara (23:14)
I need, you all know, you’ve all been there. I need it to be completely room darkening. And then you start having a conversation like, well, I don’t mean it to be that dark. And you’re like, okay, sweetie, room darkening means a thing. Okay. But I mean, you’ve been there when you get to the end of the conversation, you’re like, so you don’t want it to be like I call it Las Vegas dark. You don’t want it to be when you wake up in the morning, you don’t know if it’s two o ‘clock in the morning or two o ‘clock in the afternoon.

no, I like to wake up with the sun. Okay. So then we need like control and we need like dimming, but we don’t need room darkening. And the whole thing about approaching sales from a relationship standpoint is you’re not just coming in the door to sell a product. Somebody asks for room darkening, you bring a room darkening product out of your car, you put it on the table, you measure it, you pick a color and you leave. No, the salesperson that’s going to be effective

and is going to actually drive big numbers and have a good body of work with repeat and referral clients is the salesperson who is what I call not an order taker. It’s, you know what? I appreciate you’ve told me. I don’t say these things out loud to people, but in my brain, I appreciate you told me what you want, but I’m actually here to discover what you want. I’m here. My role is to ask you enough questions, to present enough scenarios to you that

Will Hanke – WTMP (24:35)
Yes.

LuAnn Nigara (24:41)
I ultimately understand your needs so well that now I’m only presenting the options that will meet those needs, that function, design, and price investment need. so sales is a process. It takes time. And if you are phoning it in or trying to be an order taker, you’re going to have a modicum of success, but you’re not going to…

transcend and really build a sales book for yourself with repeat and referral clients that call you for decades.

Will Hanke – WTMP (25:14)
Yeah, what you said is hugely important. I can’t tell you how many years I went through sales. First of all, dreading the idea of being a salesperson in the first place, right? Because I thought I had to be an order taker. If I get on the call with somebody, they have to say yes at the end of it. And that was definitely not the right way to go about it. But it’s the way that I thought sales were for so many years.

LuAnn Nigara (25:26)
You

Yeah, now it’s a discovery process. The best salesperson is a curious, inquisitive person that is trying to truly understand the objectives of their consumer and find the product at the right price point with the right decor aesthetic to fit that need. And when you do that, you write deals. You write business.

Will Hanke – WTMP (26:02)
Yeah, yeah. I love the idea of the make a friend. I did know Steve and he was a dynamic personality in the first place, right? It’s hard for him not to make a friend, I guess.

LuAnn Nigara (26:09)
Yeah.

Ugh. Gosh, right?

Yeah, it’s the truth. It’s the truth. And Jessica Harling, who I mentioned a few moments before, she, I had spent time teaching this Make a Friend seven step course, but now Jessica teaches it for us. And she actually wildly and coincidentally spent the last three to four months right up to Steve’s death last year in 2023 revising

the Make a Friend program. The core is there. The core is exactly what it was, but updating the numbers, making sure that it was appropriate numbers and estimates that we’re using now. And then also, Jessica has expanded and broadened the content to make it appropriate to the interdesign industry as well. But she did it hand in hand and side by side with Steve, which was really very special.

Will Hanke – WTMP (27:11)
Love that Jessica’s been on our show, and we’re actually going to have her back on again to talk about some stuff. So yeah, I love that you guys use her for some of your stuff. She works with a lot of our clients. So let’s talk about objections. What kind of objections do you tend to encounter, and how do you address them and move the sale forward?

LuAnn Nigara (27:17)
good! Yeah…

Yeah. yeah.

So that’s a big question, right? I would say that I think my biggest point of view on objections is that you have to, no matter what the objection is, think the intentional, the professional salesperson understands that the objection is simply indicating to you, you have not finished your job yet.

If you take it under that perspective, then you take all the sting out of it. If you literally, if you have an objection, whether I have to ask my husband or I don’t think the price is right or I don’t care what it is, if your brain says, I haven’t completed my job, I haven’t finished, something is undone here, then you move from

Holy cow, what am I gonna do? This is crazy, I’m pissed and blah, blah to, okay, what’s my step back? Where do I have to go back and regroup? Okay, and the thing is, there’ll be times when you have a clue yourself where you’re like, you know, I feel like we didn’t button it up when we were talking about, you know, the price. Like she agreed to it, but I could kind of see she was a little waffly on it. And so maybe that’s the thing. You know, I always tell salespeople is ask the question.

What exact, you know, people say whatever, you know, it’s, we’re in a conversation. And if we have started it from our very first interaction with the phone call to spending anywhere from the half hour to an hour and a half in their home, you’re entitled to ask a question. So if somebody says,

my goodness, that’s ridiculous. I can’t believe it. That’s so much money. I never thought it was going to be that much money. First of all, in seven step class, we teach you to never hear that sentence. Okay. We teach you how to mitigate and avoid that. But if you do hear it, you’re, know, my always things tell salespeople is just say, that’s interesting. Based on what? Like I didn’t think it was going to be that much money. Okay. Why? Based on what? Well, I mean, I just didn’t.

Okay, so this is just, this is not a real conversation, right? Or, you know, somebody else was out here and they gave me an estimate. Okay, now we’re getting somewhere, right? was that an estimate on the same product and you know, all the things? It absolutely was. Well, I’m gonna, I don’t know, you know, Will, I sold window treatments for 40 years. I’m gonna tell you what, if 20 times somebody told me they had an estimate for the exact same products, exact same things that was lower,

Will Hanke – WTMP (29:47)
you

LuAnn Nigara (30:17)
I’m gonna tell you maybe two times at a 20, it actually was an apples and apples quote and lower 98 % of the time. It is not, it is, I had somebody recently, I actually had to come out and do some window treatment sales two winters ago, Kimberly our number one inside sales person at Window Works was on maternity leave. And I was like, my God, I gotta like dust off and go do this again, right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (30:24)
Right. Yeah.

Ha

LuAnn Nigara (30:42)
And I had given an entire quote to, for a townhouse locally here, for a designer who then presented it to his client. And he comes back with this crazy email. my goodness, I can’t believe it. I’m so embarrassed. My client’s got a quote. Your quote is $24 ,000. Their quote is more than $5 ,000 less. How could you put me in this position? And I’m like, you know what? Take a chill pill here. Why don’t we just relax for a moment?

Will Hanke – WTMP (31:11)
Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (31:12)
And so I don’t respond in the email when somebody’s upset. I’m not coming back in an email. So when we talk about objections, this is a huge objection. So I’m picking up the telephone and I’m saying, hey, this doesn’t happen. I’m around the bush a couple of times. We are fair and we’re competitive. You need to get me that quote. And because now I can talk level with him. I’m not talking direct to the consumer, but even to the consumer, I would have said, hey, I understand.

However, we need to verify that it’s apples and apples. The long story short of it is, it was like, you know, how many windows, 16 windows, 10 windows, whatever it was, PowerView. Well, I had quoted Arcatella, PowerView, and all of the windows, now everybody that does window treatment is gonna know what this means. I would tell you 70 % of the windows were the same size and they were 49 inches by 73 inches.

Will Hanke – WTMP (32:11)
Okay.

LuAnn Nigara (32:11)
We all know that that is one inch wider than the inside break and two, you know, one inch longer than the outside break, right? Like the length break. And the other quote was applause. And every window was like 46 by 70 because the homeowner had measured it themselves and given the dimensions to someone over the phone to get the quote. And I just, now,

Will Hanke – WTMP (32:35)
yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (32:41)
That doesn’t mean a lot to people outside of our industry, but everybody listening knows, Architella motorized, to applause, motorized with a width and a length differential on 60 or 70 % of the windows. This is no wonder. So it’s like, my thing is, take your objections, whatever they are, as the opportunity to do more digging. Just stay calm, stay in the moment, stay relaxed.

Stay non -confrontational, stay curious, right? And just say, that’s interesting, help me understand. How could that possibly be? That’s not normal. We’re in business many years. We’re fairly priced. And then ask for the quote. And most people are making it up. They’re making it up. well, I mean, I just did. okay. Well, did you really then? That’s awesome.

Will Hanke – WTMP (33:35)
I remember years ago when I was getting into sales, and of course I was scared to death, right? So somebody had a set of flashcards. And basically it was, the customer says this, reply with this, right? And it was great. At first, I thought this was the greatest thing ever. But what I quickly realized was I was missing the piece about making the friend. And it became more of just a robotic thing.

Most times it just made it worse, right? It wasn’t making the sale any better. Yeah. It was just, this guy’s, this guy’s a robot.

LuAnn Nigara (34:05)
That’s right.

No, you have to listen. You have to listen. Yes, you have to listen. And the thing is, when you’re listening, you’re getting the cues for what the actual pain points are and what their motivators and drivers are. And if you’re too busy getting ready with your next question or your next answer without truly listening to what they’re saying, you’re missing every opportunity that would enable you

to get to a resolution and get to a good sale for that person.

Will Hanke – WTMP (34:42)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Any good tips on kind of closing the deal, negotiating techniques that maybe have worked well for you?

LuAnn Nigara (34:53)
You know, here’s the biggest one, ask for the money. So many people get up to the point and they don’t ask for the money. Like, how would you like to pay for this? You know, do you want, let’s get this started today. Are you ready to go? I mean, that it sounds simple, but that is, I would tell you, if anybody is, if they are not closing at about 60 % of their leads,

the projects they go on, they probably can raise their closing ratio by eight or 10 points if they just pay attention to how many times they’re like, okay, well, you know, I guess you’ll call me, you’ll let me know, or, you know, if you this or I’ll email you, it’s like, just ask for the check. So, and then negotiation, negotiation is.

Will Hanke – WTMP (35:30)
you

you

LuAnn Nigara (35:49)
Again, that is a listening process. I have a presentation that I do on successful negotiation. It’s based on my dialogue framework and there’s eight steps to it. You can’t skip any of the steps, but the steps are easy to learn when you think of them as a human. Like to your point, it’s not flashcards, right? You’ve got to at each step engage as a human. And when you’re negotiating with somebody, you’ve got to first hear what they’re saying.

And then you have to reframe and qualify for them. This is what I understood you to say. This is what I understood you to want. Is that correct? And sometimes you’re right. And sometimes you’re like, whoa, I missed it. And then they tell you again. And then you reframe again. And then you’re looking for the meeting ground. You’re looking for the thing that you can both agree on. Sometimes it’s a negotiation of money. A lot of times it’s offering more services.

If I add this to the pot, are we good to go today? If I can also provide this, would you do the project with me today? That sort of thing. We have so many things at our disposal. Offering to do free paper shades. All kinds of that. Offering a free install. Offering an extended warranty. If I put this in. But the thing is, if you’re offering the person

know, free paper shades who just said to you, after we’re done this sales appointment, I’m going to my beach house for a month. Will the shades be ready when I get back? What do they care about paper shades? They don’t care about paper shades. So, but that’s the thing. That’s what’s the one of the places that salespeople will make a mistake is A, not asking directly for the sale, but B, not paying attention.

to what actually is the motivator and the thing that a person wants. So when it comes time to negotiate, you either offer that or you take it away. You say, well, at this price, I was willing to give you that. But if you want me to go to that price, I got to pull that off the table. And if you’re pulling off something off the table that they don’t need, well, then you just gave your price away. But if you’ve been listening and paying attention and you know what they need and you pull it back,

Well, I want that. That’s great. Then let’s go ahead with this agreed upon price. You know what I mean? Look, we negotiate all day long. We negotiate with our kids. We negotiate with our spouses. know, all you got to do is do it with your consumer, with your eaters engaged, and it’s so much easier.

Will Hanke – WTMP (38:18)
Yeah. Yeah. The one thing that I didn’t hear you mention was defaulting straight to discount or a percent off. Right? It sounds like we can add these things on as an additional value add for you if you’re willing to close today versus just defaulting to the passive position of, OK, would you like 10 % off, please? Please take my deal.

LuAnn Nigara (38:28)
forget that. Let’s go.

Yes.

Right. No, yeah. You can count on two hands a number of times, I have taken money off a deal in four decades. And if and when I do, I’m getting something else. I’m getting something else. I’m never just like, you asked for 10 off, okay, you can have it. It’s like, no, we gotta have a conversation about this. have to, even if I’m not getting something else, I have to be able to justify it to them in a way that…

Will Hanke – WTMP (38:54)
Right.

LuAnn Nigara (39:14)
They understand it wasn’t just an arbitrary, I took $1 ,000 off or $100 off or $10 ,000 off because that just leaves such a bad taste. Anytime I’m on the other end of a sales process and somebody easily, quickly will just lower the price, I’m like, wait a minute. So if I didn’t say, but I overpaid, that, I can not stand that. And so it’s, am against

Will Hanke – WTMP (39:34)
Right. Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (39:43)
discounting in a negotiation as a first level, second level, third level thing because of both things. I’m inherently competitive and I want my dollar, but I also know it just cheapens our reputation and our company for no reason whatsoever and you lose the respect of that consumer. And so those are both very powerful motivators for me to continue to my

Will Hanke – WTMP (40:01)
Thanks.

LuAnn Nigara (40:14)
skill set as a salesperson to do better.

Will Hanke – WTMP (40:17)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. Never devalue yourself for no reason at all, right? That’s silly to do that.

LuAnn Nigara (40:25)
No, because it doesn’t feel good to the other person either. That’s the thing.

Will Hanke – WTMP (40:29)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, definitely they’re going to immediately have a slightly different thought about the service that they’re getting even weeks later at the install. They’re like, well.

LuAnn Nigara (40:38)
Yeah. Yeah. They’re happy about saving the money, but that you’ve just got to ding to your reputation with them. That’s the truth of it.

Will Hanke – WTMP (40:44)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. So I wanna switch gears a little bit and talk about scaling real quick. What advice do you have to owner, business owners that are looking to scale their businesses up? What pitfalls should they be aware of?

LuAnn Nigara (41:02)
Well, here’s the thing. It is an absolute non -negotiable that if you and, first of all, I believe every business should have documented SOPs, but it is a non -negotiable if you expect to scale your business. You must absolutely determine how you do all the things in your business because you don’t think you have a way, but you do.

You do, even if you have been a solo entrepreneur with one person answering your phone and one person installing for you, you have a way that you do it. And the second that you mistake that you’re gonna hire one other salesperson or one other installer to come in and do work with your company and you have not documented your way, you are going to consistently like have these trips and stumbles where

Will Hanke – WTMP (41:38)
All

LuAnn Nigara (41:56)
the other people on your behalf are not going out and behaving and delivering to your consumer what you have set as your standard. We can have 1 ,000 window treatment companies. We can all do it a different way. But within the company, if I have a deliverable of my sales experience or my installation experience, and every installer and every salesperson that works for me has to deliver it the same way. Because if

Sally Smith calls, you know, Bill’s Blinds and they have one experience and then she refers her sister, know, Karen, Sal, whoever, to Bill’s Blinds and she has a different experience. The two sisters are like, what company did you work with? Like, they did great by me. Well, they did horrible. never called me back. You know, and that just messes with your brand. It messes with your profitability. And what happens is,

Will Hanke – WTMP (42:39)
you

LuAnn Nigara (42:52)
Internally, you’re just looking around going, what’s going on? Why is the business not growing? And it’s because you haven’t set the stage for growth with a very thoughtful look at how do you do it. I mean, as simple as how do you answer the phone? Like, that is like the silliest example, but it is so true. Everyone should answer the phone the same way.

Will Hanke – WTMP (43:14)
Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (43:18)
And I don’t care if you say, hi, it’s Bill’s Blinds. Can I help you? I don’t say it’s Bill’s Blinds, it’s a great day. I don’t care what you say. But if you all answered a different way, that automatically tells me you have no way of doing anything. Because you haven’t sat and figured out what you stand for, how you do it, and how you will deliver your client experience. And so if you want to scale, you got to lock that down.

Will Hanke – WTMP (43:41)
Great example, we had a client who’s one of the salespeople was answering, hello, hello. And that was it. And they’re like, my god.

LuAnn Nigara (43:47)
my God. my God, it’s my pet peeve. my God, that’s my pet peeve. My thing is your name and the company name. You have to say both of them somehow, some way. I can’t stand when I call a company and A, they don’t say their name. So I’m not like, did I dial right? Is this right? And then B, they don’t say their name. I don’t want to say what’s your name because you know what happens when you say what’s your name to somebody?

It sometimes feels aggressive, right? Like when you’re dealing with somebody on the phone and they are like, okay, I’m gonna have Will call you back or whatever like this. If they haven’t shared their name already with me and I go, okay, that’s great, what’s your name? It almost feels like I’m getting your name so if Will doesn’t call me back, I’m telling him you didn’t tell me, right? And it’s like, and that’s not what you want. You just really wanna know who the person is so you can say, I spoke to Sally earlier, Will, she’s great, right?

Will Hanke – WTMP (44:34)
yeah, yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (44:44)
So it’s got it, like it’s such a simple thing, but it is, you can just hit on one of my pet peeves, it makes me crazy.

Will Hanke – WTMP (44:51)
We’ve got a fast food place here in town that does that. pull up and they say, welcome to, I think it’s Culver’s, welcome to Culver’s. This is Sally. How can I help you? You know, something like that. And of course my response is, hey, Sally, I’d like your triple cheese, you know, whatever. But it feels a lot more fruitful just because of that.

LuAnn Nigara (45:03)
Right. Right.

Exactly.

Right. Exactly.

Will Hanke – WTMP (45:14)
Yeah. So how can window treatment companies leverage technology? My favorite thing in the world, right? How can they kind of leverage technology to build those SOPs and some of those things that they now realize they need to do?

LuAnn Nigara (45:29)
Yeah, well, I mean, there’s so much out there, right? So whether, first of all, I think every window treatment company, no matter what size they are, should have some vehicle for capturing their consumer data, right? Some sort of CRM. So whatever you use, I don’t care if you use an Excel spreadsheet, honest to God, I don’t care where your level of tech is.

Of course, I love it better if it is some sort of level of tech that you’re capturing all of the information about your existing consumers, the leads that you didn’t sell, all of that stuff. And then you can then tag and do email marketing through it. All of the things that I know are your superpower because, you need a record. We just had a customer at Window Works today. I walked through to get my lunch out of the refrigerator and Kim says to me, Lou, Patty Ahmad.

Will Hanke – WTMP (45:54)
you

LuAnn Nigara (46:23)
What did you sell her the last time? And I just looked at her, I was like, wait, what? And she said, yeah, she’s on the phone. And she goes, she moved to Colorado and she’s working with one of your exciting Windows members out there. And she just realized they’re coming to see her tomorrow and she wants to know what did you sell her? Now, I’m gonna tell you what, the first time I sold to Patty Ahmaud, she built a house in 1989. Okay, I remember it because my daughter was six months old and her daughter was one month old.

Will Hanke – WTMP (46:46)
OK.

LuAnn Nigara (46:52)
And they ended up, we lived in different towns and 10 years later, we all ended up moving to another town and moving to the same town. And when we moved to that town, she built in that town and we did window treatments there. So she has been my customer since 1989. And the thing was, I said to her, I said, listen, most of the work that she did was sell shades. I said, I think in a family room we did woven woods. I said, we did exterior roller shades.

Will Hanke – WTMP (47:02)
the world.

LuAnn Nigara (47:21)
probably maybe 10 years ago and Kim goes, you know what, let me look it up. And there she goes. She goes into our CRM and she pulls all the orders up. Now, we didn’t have the orders from 1989, not quite as savvy in 1989, but we did have the orders going back as far as like 2005. And so, you know, like your CRM is…

Will Hanke – WTMP (47:32)
All

LuAnn Nigara (47:44)
Look, if you use Solitech to quote and place your orders, I love Ray, love it all day long. These are things that can increase your efficiency. If you’re using ClickUp or monday .com or Airtable, all things that can increase your efficiency. But for me, if you’re not tech savvy, the non -negotiable is some form of a CRM to capture your consumer data and enable you to

continually email and stay in front of them throughout the years.

Will Hanke – WTMP (48:17)
Yeah, yeah, totally agree. One of the big things that helped my business grow was we built a system called lead boomerang and it is a CRM on steroids. It handles the lead, whether they come from a Google My Business or they come from your website or they just used your chat widget, whatever it is, you know, everything goes into this one place. You have one central location to do all that. It’s by far the biggest, most important tool that our clients have.

LuAnn Nigara (48:27)
Mm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s 2024, folks. It’s non -negotiable.

Will Hanke – WTMP (48:49)
Right? Fair enough. Fair enough.

LuAnn Nigara (48:52)
You know, I’m older than dirt and even I know that.

Will Hanke – WTMP (48:55)
Yeah, yeah. So as we wrap up, thank you again for all of your time that you spent. I really do appreciate it. Wanted to ask you about emerging trends. What are you seeing specifically for our industry? And how can business owners kind of take advantage of these trends?

LuAnn Nigara (49:12)
Well, I have to say, feel like it’s, look, the outdoor space, it’s been on fire since COVID, okay? So I don’t know that I would actually call it so much an emerging trend. mean, Window Works, Vin started selling exterior awnings in like 84. He, 1984, he was like, we, our mission is to filter light at the window, he said. And he’s like, what’s the difference if we do it from inside or outside? But.

Will Hanke – WTMP (49:32)
Okay.

LuAnn Nigara (49:41)
absolutely since COVID. And the thing about it is, is the reason I use that as an emerging trend is because I think anybody that reads window fashion vision that is in the industry goes to the events, the sunshade expo and all that. You probably all went, okay, snooze. But my question is how many of you are actually leaning into it and selling exterior products? We have a member at Exciting Windows that at the beginning of the year,

we were all having a conversation about exterior products and Vinny has just been hammering, guys, guys, guys, it’s been a thing, it’s a thing, if you don’t get on it now, you’re behind the thing, like you gotta do it. And this one business went from averaging $200 ,000 a year in gross sales to this year is projecting at 800 ,000. And the difference in the gross sales is exterior products.

and it’s a woman -owned business. And so she just looked at Vinny and she said, okay, I’m gonna do exterior shades where I’m gonna do exterior awnings. And we have at our conferences are sponsored by companies that do exterior shades and exterior awnings. And so our members get a chance to meet these companies, see the products in person. But so my thing is, is, you know, my daughter, I used to always say the cliches, you know, the thing, whatever it is. And she’d be like, mom, that’s what you call shade. And I’m like, you know,

It’s a cliche because it’s true. when everybody’s like, snooze exterior products, my next question is, and how many have you sold this year? So if you’re selling hundreds of thousands, great, go ahead snooze and you pick a different trend. But if you are still just listening that this is the trend you’re not doing, then I say, how about you do it and you tell me what the next trend is going to be.

Will Hanke – WTMP (51:34)
Yeah, yeah, that’s I love that you said that. I’d say two years ago, five to seven percent of our clients did exterior. And right now that number is probably closer to twenty five to thirty. It’s definitely something that our clients are adding on.

LuAnn Nigara (51:49)
See? And until it’s 100%, it’s, yeah, yeah. And it’s an untapped market. And it is a great place to add a revenue stream, a profitable revenue stream to your business. Is there a learning curve? Yeah. But I mean, there was a point when you didn’t have a measure and sell a drape either. You’re a smart person. You’ll figure it out.

Will Hanke – WTMP (51:57)
It is.

That’s 100 % true. And that is an argument I hear is, I have to hire installers or train installers to do something totally different. OK, well, then do it. I mean, you did that. Yeah.

LuAnn Nigara (52:18)
Aw, you’re right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know what? There are products that require a different learning curve for an installer, but you know what? A good technician is a good technician. They’ll figure it out. They will. Yeah.

Will Hanke – WTMP (52:38)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think if we start talking about margins on the exterior stuff, that might get some of their attentions too. From what I understand, they’re a little bit higher. So that’s a motivation technique as well.

LuAnn Nigara (52:51)
Well, and also too at this point, right? And when you talk about it as being an emerging trend, there is an opportunity to not have 15 quotes in the project.

Will Hanke – WTMP (53:06)
Yep, yeah, agree. Thank you. I really am glad that you said that. It’s something I’ve been watching for a while now and it’s interesting how many more clients are adding that on. So LuAnn, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your insights today. I appreciate your time. For those listeners that want to learn more about you, LuAnn University, all the different things you’re up to, your podcasts, where can they go to find you?

LuAnn Nigara (53:18)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Thank you, Will. I really did appreciate this conversation. Such great questions. So much fun. know, everything lives on luannigara .com. So on luannigara .com, you can find the Well Designed Business podcast, which we’ve hit over thousand episodes at this point. And that is business conversations pretty much centered on the interior design industry and the struggles a designer goes through. We also have Window Treatments for Profit, where we talk with our homies.

over there about all the things that we do and how we run our window treatments, our window treatment businesses. LuAnn University is where we teach you what they don’t teach you. First of all, the window treatment industry doesn’t have a college or a university. And the design industry, even if you are university taught or certified, they’re not teaching you the business side. So we are taking on over there the marketing, the sales classes, all of the things.

at Luann University that it’s just hard to go learn anywhere. And we are doing them facing the design and the window treatment industry. So the information comes at you relevant to where you are. And that’s luannuniversity.com. And I would say to you, Will, we are going to open registration for the next semester of Luann University in right around the time this show is airing. And the next session will run in 2025, the new year.

And if they go to luannuniversity.com, if they select any five week course and they use the code WILL, W -I -L -L, they can get $250 off of a course. So that’s for your listeners. And then finally, I would just say, we would love to have you also check us out at ExcitingWindows. And that’s excitingwindows .biz, all right? B -I -Z, not com. So excitingwindows .biz, where we, you know, we…

help you build a better business.

Will Hanke – WTMP (55:27)
Awesome. Thank you. And thank you for the promo code. I love that. And especially that they have to put in my name. That’s the best part of that, I think. But thank you. Thank you again for your expertise. It’s been fantastic. Good. Good. As a listener, you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, don’t forget to subscribe to Marketing Pains for more engaging discussions on window treatments and awnings, businesses.

LuAnn Nigara (55:32)
Yeah.

That’s it, right? That’s fun.

This was great. Yeah, this has been a lot of fun. I appreciate you.

Will Hanke – WTMP (55:55)
the marketing, all the different things that we have to do every day. And until next time, stay inspired and keep enhancing your spaces. LuAnn, thank you so much for being on today. I really do appreciate it.

LuAnn Nigara (56:08)
Thank you, Will.

Will Hanke – WTMP (56:08)
Awesome. Hey, that was fantastic. Let me hit the stop button here.

LuAnn Nigara (56:13)
Great, great, thank you.