Explorez tous les épisodes du podcast Let's Talk Neurosense: the psychology of neurodiversity

Rima Scheimann brings a wealth of perspectives. As the mother to a child with a PDA (pathological demand avoidance) profile who is currently not attending school, she has first hand experience of what it can be like when your child doesn’t fit the school system. She’s also an orthoptist, and has worked in neurodevelopmental services in the NHS. And finally, her family is from India while she was born in the UK and so she brings a cross-cultural perspective.

In this wide-ranging interview Rima tells us how having her son has changed the way that she works and understands children’s behaviour. She talks of their struggles to be understood and of how hard they have had to fight for recognition. She told us how she feels that her son has made her a better orthoptist, and what that looks like in practice. She talks of feeling misunderstood, and how she thinks that this could change.

We hope you enjoy it.

If you study undergraduate psychology, you’ll learn about object permanence. It’s a developmental stage when babies first understand that objects that they cannot see still exist. It’s really early - happens before they can talk. Someone without object permanence would be severely disabled.

So when Owen Chevalier noticed that object permanence was being talked about as a symptom of ADHD, he was intrigued. How had this happened? And why had none of his professors noticed?

Owen is a philosopher of psychiatry, and so he set out to find out what was going on. In this interview, he tells us the story of how he traced object permanence back to its source and where things went from there. It’s a fascinating story.

Owen also tells us more about the things that interest philosophers of psychiatry. We talk about looping and how ideas spread on social media, and why this is far more powerful than we think.

Owen’s academic paper about object permanence-

Chevalier, O (2024) “It starts on TikTok”: Looping Effects and The Impact of Social Media on Psychiatric Terms. Philosophy, Psychiatry, & Psychology Volume 31, Number 2, June 2024 pp. 163-174

When Katharine Beals’ autistic son was young, she realise that he wasn’t acquiring language as other children were. It wasn’t happening naturally, so she set about deliberately teaching him how to communicate, word by word. From here, she developed a interest in autistic linguistics, as she calls it.

Fast forward to the present, her son is an adult and Katharine is a specialist in autism and language acquisition. And because she understands the process of language acquisition so well, when she heard about facilitated communication she knew it could not be possible. This just wasn’t how language and communication works.

In this fascinating conversation, Katharine tells us why she thinks that the neurodiversity community has not rejected facilitated communication despite the overwhelming evidence that it does not enable independent communication and can cause harm. She tells us about helping her son learn to communicate, and why understanding the intricacies of how autism can affect language acquisition is so important.

Katharine, along with Janyce Boynton (who we interviewed in S2 E10) contributes to a website dedicated to informing people of the harms of facilitated communication, FacilitatedCommunication.org.

Katharine’s own webpage

Link to the University of Pennsylvania’s (not Penn State as Dani had intially thought) Adversarial Collaboration Project.

Are autism and ADHD overdiagnosed? Underdiagnosed? Misdiagnosed? What’s really going on?

The UK government commissioned a report last year to address exactly those issues and it’s finally here. The Fonagy report was published on 9th Oct and spans over 600 pages.

That’s a long document, and there have already been a lot of takes on this report. Some have said that it confirms that overdiagnosis isn’t happening and that this is welcome, while others have framed it as an attack on neurodivergent people. It suggests that we should be moving to a needs-led system, plus diagnosis. What does that really mean?

We sat down with James Barnes who luckily for us has put the time into understanding this report to ask him what he thinks, and where we go from here. James wrote a thorough response to the report on his Substack The Between Us which can be read here.

James’s website is here.

Dr Lester Liao is a Developmental Paediatrician at the Montreal Children’s Hospital and Assistant Professor at McGill University, where he is Director of the Formation of the Professional as Healer Course and Creator and Director of the Doctor as Person Fellowship. He is an Associate Member at the Institute of Health Sciences Education.

He is particularly interested in the role of philosophy and culture in shaping the practice of medicine. He has become increasingly concerned about overdiagnosis of autism, and in this interview he explains why. He tells us why he thinks so many children are being diagnosed with autism, and how a diagnosis can harm as well as help.

Lester’s paper on overdiagnosis with Eric Fombonne-

Liao L, & Fombonne E. (2026) Autism Overdiagnosis and Its Harmful Effects. JAMA Pediatr. 180(7):711–712. doi:10.1001/jamapediatrics.2026.0400

How does the meaning of words change over time - and what are the implications when those words are clinical terms? Nick Haslam is an academic psychologist, and his work has looked at the expansion of psychological terms like ‘trauma’, ‘abuse’ and ‘bullying’. He suggests that these concepts expand over time, becoming both less extreme (vertical expansion) and broader (horizontal expansion).

In this interview, we talk about how that applies to neurodiversity. We discuss how formal terms like ‘ADHD’ have expanded, but also how the emergence of informal terms like neurodivergence have increased the number of people who think that perhaps their difficulties in life are due to their differently wired brains. Nick is at pain to point out noting semantic shifts like this isn’t about judgement, it’s simply an observation. How we use words changes over time - and this has implications for clinical practice.

Nick is a prolific researcher and we have just selected a few, free-to-access examples of his work here.

Here’s a recent paper about concept creep.

Here is some of his work about the mixed blessings of biogenetic explanations.

Article in The Conversation about the way that the conversation on social media has shifted over time, with autism and ADHD now dominating.

Finally, the two papers by Lucy Foulkes and colleagues, mentioned by Dani and Nick, about the prevalence inflation hypothesis, and the Barry Mason paper about Safe Uncertainty.

Nabeelah got in touch with us because she was concerned. She has an autistic 6-year-old whose autism has been obvious since she was very young and who is minimally speaking. She felt that children like her daughter were invisible. Her family’s priorities are not represented in the conversation about neurodiversity and it’s more than that, she thinks that we are lacking the language that we need to describe important differences between autistic people. The word ‘autism’ is being used to mean too many different things.

In this heart-felt episode, Nabeelah told us about the early signs of difference she saw in her daughter and how little support there is available. She looked for early intervention, only to be told by a speech and language therapist that she herself was the early intervention. She sought help in online groups, only to be told she was ableist for wanting to help her daughter stop using nappies. She told us of her daughter’s difficulties - pica, toileting, elopement - and how she doesn’t see organisations or researchers prioritising the needs of families like hers. She told us of how difficult it is even to describe her daughter’s challenges, because all of the language has been problematised. She told us of her love for her daughter and how joyful life with her could be.

Nabeelah isn’t denying the reality of anyone’s struggle – but she’s saying that some people are being missed. There has been a re-centring of the autism discussion, away from the severely disabled, and yet we don’t have the words to describe the problem.

This conversation is a valuable insight into the world of the families of severely autistic children, and a wake-up call for anyone who might have assumed that, at this end of the spectrum, needs are being met and families supported.

Here’s a link to the study Nabeelah mentions which looked at the underrepresentation of those with intellectual disabilities in autism research.

For a discussion of PACT and other similar early intervention approaches briefly touched upon in the episode, start here.For information about the Cambridge Attention, Learning and Memory centre click here.

Our episode with Amy Lutz, mentioned in this interview - parent of a severely autistic adult child and disability historian.

And finally, here is a link to some research on developing the consensus definition for profound autism.

“I would love if the phrase nature vs nurture disappeared from the planet. I think it’s really held back a lot of progress. It’s nature and nurture. If we think of science as nature and nurture we are going to make progress a lot faster than if we keep dividing it into separate things because that’s just not how the world works.” Robert Wright

Are you confused by the nature vs nurture debate? Are you unsure what it really means to say that ‘autism is genetic’, and why people say that there is ‘missing heritability’ in autism? You wouldn’t be alone. The science of behavioural genetics seem to get more complicated the more closely we look.

That’s why when the National Autistic Society stated that ‘autism is genetic’, we wanted to know more. It just seemed too straightforward to be true and we weren’t sure how the evidence matched up. So we were delighted when we found Bob Wright, a paediatrician whose work speaks to exactly this. Bob could not be better placed to help us to understand, drawing on his knowledge not only of paediatrics and neurodevelopment, but also of genetics and the emerging field of exposomics.

In this episode, we asked Bob whether the National Autistic Society were right to make this statement, what he thinks they might be missing, and why he thinks that the question of the genetics of autism is far from resolved. He uses stories to bring these ideas to life - look out for the yellow flanked chickens!

Bob described himself as an exposomic scientist. Exposomics, in contrast to (but in many way complimentary to) genomics, was first introduced by Christopher Wilde in his seminal paper in 2005. It is the science of the environmental exposures throughout a person’s lifetime and how these relate to health. For Bob, it offers a promising new area of research and knowledge development that could help us both to understand autism better but also perhaps offer hope to families of profoundly autistic children.

Bob has a talent for making complex ideas digestible, using stories that really helped Naomi and I begin to get a handle on this topic. We hope that this conversation will resonate with many of you or at least will start some new conversations!

Find more from Bob on his Substack page, including in The Miseducation of Autism Heritability and On the Origins of a Specious Argument about Autism Part 2: Twins, where you can find more details of the chicken story and more.

When Helen Minnis was tiny, she was affectionately referred to as ‘a nightmare baby’. As an adult, she has a diagnosis of ADHD. She counts herself lucky, because her parents had each other, they had enough money, they had community support - and so they were well enough resourced to look after her. It could have been very different.

All of this is very relevant to what Helen researches now. ‘Double jeopardy’ refers to the interaction between neurodivergence (which Helen defines as those who are at the extreme ends of the normal distribution) and childhood adversity. The combination of temperament and environment, and the complex and bidirectional relationships between the two.

In this far-ranging interview, Helen tells us about her research and why she thinks this is such an important area to study. We talk about the children for whom parenting really makes a difference, and how it frequently goes unacknowledged that every child is different and each parent has a different task.

This interview goes from the research to the personal and practical. Helen’s empathy for parents and children shines through throughout. We hope you enjoy it.

One of Helen’s academic papers on double jeopardy with her colleague Ruchika Gajwani-

Gajwani, R., & Minnis, H. (2023). Double jeopardy: implications of neurodevelopmental conditions and adverse childhood experiences for child health. European child & adolescent psychiatry, 32(1), 1–4.

Robert Plomin is the behavioural geneticist mentioned in the podcast who uses the phrase ‘parents matter but they don’t make a difference’.

Big announcements this week in the UK autism world. The National Autistic Society have declared that they are stating definitively that autism is genetic and that we can all stop looking for answers elsewhere. The question, they say, is resolved.

This statement has been very positively received, with many sharing it and heralding it as a great step forward. But is the science really as cut and dried as this would suggest? One thing is clear, they are not making this announcement because of a scientific breakthrough. There has not been a new development in autism research which has finally resolved the issue of what causes autism. They have based this on a review of 83 different research studies, but the outcomes of these studies are nowhere near as straightforward as the statement suggests.

In this episode, Naomi and Dani ask some questions about what ‘autism is genetic’ really means - and why the NAS are saying it now. What is meant by autism, in this context, and what is meant by ‘genetic’? It’s an area that is rife with misinformation and misunderstandings - does the NAS statement resolve any of that? Where do we go from here?

Thanks for listening to Let's Talk Neurosense: the psychology of neurodiversity! Subscribe for free.

Here are a few more links to topics discussed in this episode.

* Journal articles about the heritability of vitiligo and the familial recurrence.

* A Substack article by Robert Wright explaining the importance of gene/environment interactions

* The National Autistic Society News page and their What Causes Autism? page with a tab for Article Sources (found towards the bottom of the page)

* Marriage (and divorce) is heritable.

* Autism and polygenic risk factors, explained.

* The trouble with Twin Studies

* Cambridge study autism and genetics

* Link to the BPS Understanding Psychosis and Schizophrenia document, which provides a succinct summary of the literature referred to in the episode around inequality, poverty, racism and discrimination (Section 6.3, pg. 44)

What does lived experience really mean? Should lived experience be given the same status as scientific studies? Could it sometimes be used as a shield, preventing ideas from being challenged? Have clinicians historically ignored lived experience, and how can we redress the balance?

Talking about these questions is difficult, and Paul Hutton knows that directly. When he started posting about the complexities of working with lived experience on LinkedIn, he was surprised by the strength of the response he got.

As a result, we invited him on to the pod.

In this conversation, Paul told us why he thinks it could be dangerous to use lived experience to form general beliefs about the world, but also thinks it’s essential that lived experience is listened to, and used to generate new hypotheses. He highlights the importance of empirical evidence - and also how evidence-based practice has historically ignored lived experience.

We discussed how difficult professionals find it to challenge something framed as lived experience, and how this is sometimes exploited by researchers and those who do not want their ideas to be scrutinised.

This episode, like the previous one with Susie Colbert, explores some of the parallels (and differences) between what has been happening in neurodiversity, and what has happened already in the field of psychosis. Paul brings a great depth of research and clinical knowledge. We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Susie brings a number of unique and valuable perspectives to the topic of neurodiversity and joins Naomi and I this week to to help us kickstart season 3. As well as working clinically as a psychologist and having her own diagnosis of dyslexia, Susie works as a tutor on one of the UK’s clinical psychology training programmes. She is also part of the British Psychological Society’s working group supporting researchers using the Power Threat Meaning Framework (PTMF), a non-diagnostic alternative to working with emotional distress.

Susie reports having found her dyslexia diagnosis incredibly helpful over the years, yet she also believes, as someone committed to evidence-based practice and to interrogating ideas, that dyslexia deserves the same critical eye (or as she might put it- ‘critique-ical’ eye) as any other diagnosis or psychiatric construct.

Together we examine the conceptual overlaps between neurodivergent presentations, psychosis and other psychiatric presentations, as well as areas of difference. We talk about what it means that dyslexia now sits under the neurodiversity umbrella and the various implications of understanding things the way we do currently, as well as posing the question- ‘what’s the alternative?’

Here is a link to the Understanding Psychosis and Schizophrenia document mentioned in the episode.

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The Channel 4 documentary The Great ADHD Myth? has sparked a national conversation, and it’s a heated one. For some, it was a much needed balance to the dominant narrative, while for others it was a biased and dangerous polemic.

One of the contributors to the Channel 4 programme, Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist Dr Sami Timimi, argued in his book that the onus should be on those making claims about ADHD having a neurobiological cause to provide robust supporting evidence for such claims. The evidence often cited, he argues, is often overstretched and misinterpreted. Is he right?

In this episode, we grapple with some of these issues. Naomi and I consider whether the documentary could have been framed differently, how diagnostic thresholds have changed and what this means for the research, the evidence behind claims that ADHD is a brain-based condition, how we talk about ADHD, and why all this matters.

Here are some links to research and other sources referred to in the episode.

Here is a link to webpage for Cambridge University’s Centre for Attention, Learning and Memory (CALM), and an ACAMH (Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health) interview with a representative from CALM summarising their research as having “so far revealed that behavioural problems, patterns of cognitive difficulties and neural profiles do not align with specific diagnoses”. There’s also this ACAMH paper’s podcast.

Naomi spoke about this NYT article, and the RDoC and HiTOP research.

This is the 2025 meta-analysis on brain imaging research we discussed.

And for the clinical applications, journal article discussing differences between the ICD-11 and DSM-5 diagnostic criteria for ADHD, and posing the question, amongst other dilemmas and uncertainties- “do we threshold impairment against the average peer or the hypothetical potential of the individual?”.

Episode of the podcast series Navigating Neuropsychology examining a detailed case study of a young woman, described as being extremely bright, and therefore whose “areas of personal weakness”, which were not considered to be low for her age group, contributed to her ADHD diagnostic decision. This episode offers a detailed exploration of how diagnosticians might consider differential diagnosis, and the uncertainty often involved with diagnostic assessments, but also shows how such uncertainty can quickly become lost following assessment, as seen in the title of the episode where the clinical case is introduced as a young adult with type 1 diabetes, mental health, and ADHD.

The Channel 4 documentary The Great ADHD Myth? has polarised discussion, with one side saying that it was unbalanced and unscientific, while others say that it is a necessary challenge to the dominant narrative.

ADHD UK raised concerns about it from before the programme aired, and in this special episode we sat down with Chris Benson, Education Lead for ADHD UK, to find out what he thought. Chris brings decades of experience in education as well as the lived experience of his own late diagnosis and having a daughter with ADHD and an autistic son.

In this episode we talk about the reactions to the documentary, how Chris understands ADHD and his own experience, and the implications of all of this for children who are struggling at school.

Here are some more information about the research and researchers referred to in this podcast.

Long form NYT article about ADHD and the research.

Hypercurious podcast featuring Edmund Sonuga-Barke, Anne-Laure Le Cunff and Eleanor Dommett talking about the neuroscience and controversies in ADHD research.

Large-scale studies showing that those with a diagnosis of ADHD have a higher risk of road traffic accidents and that taking ADHD medication reduced the risk of suicidal behaviour, substance misuse and criminality. Recent study (mentioned by Dani in the podcast) which indicates that stimulant medication may not actually be working on attention, but may instead increase vigilance and make tasks more rewarding.

Longitudinal study following up children who took ADHD medication which showed that childhood treatment did not improve longer term outcomes in adolescence such as grades, arrests or psychiatric hospitalisations. Large-scale study which found that taking ADHD medication in childhood was associated with shorter adult height and higher BMI.

The Guardian called it the most controversial show of the year. Amnesty International called on Channel 4 to make multiple changes before broadcast. ADHD UK complained to Ofcom. There was widespread fury on social media, with people arguing that the question posed in the Channel 4 documentary press release - is ADHD a neurodevelopmental disorder, or a social construct - was a dangerous one that could harm marginalised people.

It is fair to say that the documentary The Great ADHD Myth? polarised people before anyone had seen it.

And so when we had the opportunity to sit down with Lucy Johnstone, a consultant clinical psychologist who appeared in the documentary, we seized it with both hands. Lucy has a long history of thinking critically about the psychiatric classification system, but it is only more recently that she has started writing about neurodiversity.

We asked her what she thought of the programme, what she made of the reaction and where she thinks we go from here. She told us about the importance of lived experience, about a lifetime spent asking difficult questions and why she thinks that the conversation about ADHD is preventing us from talking about the things that really matter.

The blog series on neurodiversity Lucy wrote with John Cromby is here and her book A Straight Talking Introduction to Psychiatric Diagnosis can be found here.

In the 1990s, Janyce Boynton was working as a speech and language clinician when she started using facilitated communication with a young non-speaking girl, Betsy. Through facilitated communication, Betsy started to make allegations about abuse at home. These were reported to the authorities and things quickly started to escalate.

What happened next changed the course of Janyce’s life. Betsy was removed from her home and court proceedings were started. As part of the court process, controlled testing of facilitated communication was ordered by the judge. The results were clear. Betsy was not the author of the allegations. They were influenced by Janyce, without her being aware of it. Their story is told in the Prisoners of Silence documentary.

In this fascinating interview, Janyce tells us what happened, and how she made the fateful decision to turn towards the evidence. She told us why she has felt that it’s imperative to continue sharing her story and informing people about the harm that can be done by facilitated communication. She explains how the illusion of facilitated communication is created and why it can appear so compelling.

Aleida Verhoeven understands disability from many angles. She’s autistic herself and also has other disabilities. But in addition, she works in Australia’s National Disability Insurance Scheme as the equivalent of a case manager, primarily with autistic people.

She tells us about the situation in Australia, where, as she puts it, they have some of the highest disability spend in the world, yet some of the poorest outcomes. We discuss the reasons why that might be, and Aleida explained how she sees a misalignment between what autistic people need and what is being provided.

Aleida has some very forthright opinions and this conversation was an insight for Dani and I into how things work over the other side of the world. We hope you enjoy this episode.

Thanks for reading Let's Talk Neurosense: the psychology of neurodiversity! Subscribe for free to hear about each new episode.

Richard has spent his whole career working with autistic adults. He initially worked in a diagnostic assessment service before moving into his current role in an intensive support team for autistic adults. He is a prolific poster in online discussions about neurodiversity, and has written about some of this on his Substack.

In this interview, Richard explained how his experience has enabled him to look beneath behaviour and the formal diagnostic criteria to identify underlying processes common amongst autistic people. He tells us how he thinks that those who criticise concepts such as masking miss the serious impact on autistic people’s lives.

He talks about how he feels that better awareness and less stigma has enabled more people to come forward for diagnostic assessment, and how he sees this as a positive change.

Join Naomi, Richard and I as we wrestle with some of the big questions, such as whether masking is unique to autism, the specificity and reliability of an autism diagnosis, how funding and resources should be allocated and whether we should be talking about diagnosis at all. We certainly don’t agree on everything, but I do think we manage to hold space for different perspectives and put some of the popular ideas in neurodiversity discourse under the spotlight. Do let us know what this episode brings up for you.

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When Chrissie’s son Daniel started school, the teacher asked her on first day why they had not told her that he had an emotional disability. Later, he explained that he was terrified of being inside tall buildings. He was scared and so he hid under tables.

Daniel found school expectations hard, and school found it hard to manage Daniel. The school needed extra support and wanted to refer him for a diagnostic assessment. Chrissie and her husband Paul could see that everyone needed more help and extra funding - but they didn’t want to give Daniel a label that he would have no choice but to carry with him for life.

Since then, Chrissie and her family have been navigating education and social systems that increasingly understand the world in what they consider to be binary or overly simplistic ways. She describes here the difficult position of trying to be an appreciative friend to other parents and thoughtful psychologist whilst opposing the languages and practices that risk defining children and reducing possibilities for wellbeing and change.

Daniel is now in his twenties, and Chrissie tells us how they have found ways through the system for him. She also told us how she thinks this has been for Daniel, and how it has affected how he sees himself. She is talking to us with his consent.

This is a really unusual story and we hope you’ll find it interesting.

Does it help, being a psychologist when your children have additional needs? Or can it make things more complicated?

This week we are delighted to talk to Rosie Gilderthorp. Rosie has worked in forensic and learning disabilities services and she now runs the Psychology Business School, which helps other psychologists to find their way in private practice as well as working clinically. Two of her children are AuDHD and the third is in the process of assessment. She is a military wife, which means that much of the time she is parenting solo. These different strands of her life interact and inform each other, sometimes in unexpected ways.

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In this honest and wide-ranging interview, she tells us about her professional and personal journeys, and how being a parent to her children has changed her life and influenced her career. She tells us about her concerns about the concept of masking, and how she thinks it can be misused to dismiss children’s distress.

Rosie writes: If this conversation resonated, you can find more about me on Substack. Each week I share the unfiltered reality of raising AuDHD kids alongside practical psychological insight you can actually use.

Rosie’s book on building a life you love through the challenges of parenting children with additional needs You Are Doing Enough: a book for parents of neurodivergent children is now available for pre-order.

Guardian readers were asked last week to ask themselves if their parents might be neurodivergent. Apparently up to 97% of autistic adults over the age of 60 are undiagnosed, and the Guardian is here to guide their adult children in how to broach the subject. That is, by our calculations, 194,000 people.

So what does this mean? What is the research this is drawing on and what are the assumptions being made? Would we all be happier if everyone who could receive a diagnosis had one?

In this new quick turn-around episode, Dani and Naomi unpack the headlines and ask whether we should all be encouraging our parents to get onto a neurodevelopmental waiting list.

Thanks for reading Let's Talk Neurosense: the psychology of neurodiversity! Subscribe for free to support the podcast.

Have you noticed that the way some people talk about neurodiversity has changed? Have you heard that diagnostic language is violent, that neurodivergent people are oppressed by neuronormative standards and that it’s ableist to suggest that it’s preferable to be non-disabled, if that’s an option? Have you noticed strange similarities in the way that disability, race and gender are discussed, and wondered why that might be?

Our guest this week is Helen Pluckrose, a social and cultural commentator and co-author of the bestselling book, Cynical Theories: How Activist Scholarship Made Everything about Race, Gender and Identity - and Why This Harms Everybody and she’s here to explain what’s going on from her perspective.

In this fascinating interview Helen explains how the dogma of critical social justice theory has spread through disability studies and affects the way that many think about and research neurodiversity. She traces the evolution of these ideas from postmodernism to activist academic circles today - and from there into online conversations. We discuss the kernels of truth which underpin these narratives, and why she thinks that activist scholarship has the potential to do harm. We bring it back to neurodiversity and what this means in real life.

Helen has many bold and interesting ideas and we can’t wait to hear what you make of them.

This week’s guest is Dr Alison Flynn, a clinical psychologist who has specialised in working in neurodevelopmental and forensic services. She told us of her strong sense of professional responsibility, particularly when it comes to working with people who have been poorly served by the systems that were supposed to care for them. We talk about the need to have robust discussions about issues such as diagnosis, whilst also recognising the potential implications of such conversations. We discuss the need to ensure that we do not remove the structures which people use to get support before there are other options in place.

Alison talks to us about the history of harm from psychology towards neurodivergent people, and how this might shape the way people show up in this space. We cover many topics, including the challenges faced by people trying to navigate systems of support, the school to prison pipeline, the inherent political nature of the work that we do as clinical psychologists, and what it means to be neuroaffirmitive. Alison is a wealth of knowledge and we think you’ll agree this is a lively and interesting discussion.

This week, we speak to Jonathan Machnee, an autistic computer engineer and independent autism researcher from Canada.

Jon got in touch after the response to our episode with Uta Frith because he is particularly interested in the online dynamics around autism and neurodiversity. Jon is the host of Christianity on The Spectrum, a long form podcast where he talks to people about the intersection of Christianity and autism, and many other things besides.

In our discussion, Jon reflects on his own relationship with autism, his experiences as part of the autistic self-advocacy community, and what he has learnt from years of ethnographic research into what autistic people say online.

Jon has a real clarity of thought and depth of experience. We cover a wide range of topics, including the double empathy problem, the heightened sense of social justice often associated with autism, masking, and the concept of the autism spectrum itself.

Do let us know what Jon’s interview brings up for you, and any reflections you would like to share with other listeners. We think this one could be a great conversation starter.

Dan Lovesey is an autistic researcher, academic and creative who is part of the disability and inclusion team at The University of Law, UK. He has recently completed his PhD and has written a book about neurodiversity and the creative industries, Creative Minds, Divergent Paths.

Dan got in touch with us because he was concerned about the lack of balance he saw in conversations about neurodiversity. He felt that lived experience expertise was being presented in some cases as if it applied to everyone and thought that this had the potential to do harm.

In this frank conversation, Dan explained why he thinks that lived experience expertise isn’t treated in the same way as academic or clinical expertise, and how this can lead to ideas not being adequately tested or challenged.

He says there’s a difference between being an autistic expert, and an expert in autism, and that it’s crucial that we make that distinction.

Enjoy the show.

Dr Chris Bagley is a psychologist, teacher, writer and musician with an interest in the evolution of ideas, educational transformation and systems change. He is Director of Research at social enterprise, States of Mind, Co-Director at Square Peg CIC and a Tutor at The Institute of Education, University College London.

I (Naomi) first met Chris several years ago, as we were both critiquing the education system and trying to imagine ways that education could be different. I was immediately struck by how clearly Chris sees the problems in the school system and how it (doesn’t) work for the most marginalised young people. He is always thinking about the effect of education on the children who are labelled the failures - who could also be seen as those whom school has failed.

In this in-depth and wide-ranging interview, Chris tells us about being a psychologist in the school system, and how he feels that it pathologises the young people who don’t fit its requirements. He explains how the medical model and our model of education interact to protect each other. Children’s distress about school is labelled and treated as a medical problem, meaning that we don’t ask important questions about whether our education system is really fit for purpose.

His first book, States of Mind, written with Bea Herbert, was recently published and is available from all good booksellers.

Dr Danielle Drinkwater is a clinical psychologist and co-host of Let’s Talk Neurosense.

In this interview-with-the-hosts episode, Dani talks about her path into clinical psychology and why she wanted to work with children. She explains her clinical experience working as a neurodevelopmental diagnostician, and explains why she found herself increasingly uncomfortable with her part in the diagnostic process. She asked questions, but found it hard to get answers she was happy with.

This is an unusually honest insight into the mind of a diagnosing clinician. We hope that you enjoy it.

Thanks for listening to Let's Talk Neurosense: the Psychology of Neurodiversity. Subscribe for free to hear about new episodes as they come out.

We’ve released ten episodes of Let’s Talk Neurosense. We’ve interviewed ten different people, all with quite different perspectives on neurodiversity. It’s been a bit of a rollercoaster, and we’ve learnt a lot along the way.

Now we’d really like to know if you have questions you’d like us to answer - or people you’d like us to talk to in upcoming seasons. Please let us know in the comments. And please tell other people about us if you’ve enjoyed listening to season 1.

This week, Dani sits down with Naomi to find out about her journey into clinical psychology, her relationship to the topic of neurodiversity, her experiences of home schooling her two children, and some of the reasons she wanted to start this podcast. They reflect on some of the responses that Naomi has received since speaking out about the things that concern her online, as well as some of the ways that she tries to stay grounded and connected to what matters.

Children across the UK are waiting for years in order to get a diagnosis of autism or ADHD. And in the meantime, it can be impossible for their families to get the help that they need. Some of them are stuck; without a diagnosis they cannot access support, but waiting lists means that needs are going unmet.

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In Portsmouth, they decided to do something about this. Their Neurodiversity Team provides services and support for 0-19 year olds across the city, without requiring a diagnosis. In consultation with local families, they created a Neurodiversity Profiling tool which aims to identify a young person’s needs so that support can be offered quickly. The whole city was reorganised along needs-led lines - a diagnosis is not used to limit access to education or health services. This exists alongside the diagnostic pathway which some families still go down.

Claire Mason is the Neurodiversity Service Lead in Portsmouth, and in this interview she told us all about how it works. She explained how the profiling tool works, what it means in practice and the feedback they’ve had, both negative and positive. If you want to know more about the Portsmouth needs-led approach, click here.

When we asked Fabian what his autism diagnosis meant to him, he didn’t beat around the bush. ‘I was lost and then I was found’ he said. Fabian collected several psychiatric diagnoses before he realised that he might be autistic. He worked it out for himself and then a psychiatrist confirmed it. He says that seeing himself as disabled, rather than having a psychiatric illness, changed everything.

But Fabian is sceptical about some of the ways that autism is being portrayed and discussed online. While he thinks that people should be able to self-identify, he recognises that lived experience is a complicated thing and there are multiple incentives at place. When people post reels of themselves having meltdowns on social media, for example, what is that about? Should we value lived experience over research - and what happens when they point us in different directions? This was an unusually open conversation and we hope you enjoy it.

Earlier this year a new book, ‘Upward Bound’, garnered a lot of attention. It’s authorship was attributed to non-speaking autistic man Woody Brown. It was covered in the Guardian, the New York Times and the Today Show. It’s part of a long tradition where non-speaking autistic people are credited with the authorship of books and articles that they spell out, letter by letter, with the support of a facilitator.

But is it too good to be true? This is a hotly debated area, with some claiming it can be abusive, while others say it’s the key to unlocking a person’s inner life.

Amy Lutz is someone for whom this has personal resonance. She has an adult son, Jonah, who she describes as profoundly autistic. Her concerns about how he and people like him are being spoken over led her to do a PhD which became her book ‘Chasing the Intact Mind- How The Severely Autistic and Intellectually Disabled Were Excluded from the Debates That Affect Them Most’.In our discussion, Amy talks about her experience as a parent, her concerns about the potential harms of facilitated communication, and the contradictions of the neurodiversity movement. She also discusses the limitations of the social model of disability when applied to those with severe cognitive disabilities.

Amy sheds light on a fascinating and highly contested area of autism from both a personal and academic perspective. This is a conversation you won’t want to miss.

In this episode, we talked to Jonathan Green. He’s a child psychiatrist and conducts research into children’s social development at the University of Manchester. His research centres around early intervention for autistic children - but he doesn’t work directly with the children. The intervention is with parents, to help them to understand and interact with their autistic children better. They aim to improve the social environment of the child, to better scaffold their development.

Jonathan tells us the details of how these interventions work, what their research findings are and why he is so passionate about bringing evidence-based early intervention to as many families as possible. We also discuss some of the controversies around the idea of early intervention.

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This week we are delighted to bring you this interview with Anna. Anna is an autistic woman diagnosed in adulthood who is passionate about raising awareness of non-stereotypical presentations of autism. She also has severe OCD and has been housebound for the last six years. She has a YouTube channel called ‘Autism’s Individual’ where she posts about autism and her life.

In this conversation with Naomi, Anna explains how she spent her childhood being described as ‘an enigma’. She tells us about her diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome at the age of twenty-one, and what that meant to her. She also speaks about masking, the need for subgroups in the autism spectrum and why she thinks we need to keep using the word ‘disorder’.

Anna has a unique perspective on autism and a fascinating story to tell. We hope you enjoy it.

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Dr Helen Kirkaldie is a clinical psychologist who specialises in working with adopted children and their families. She has extensive experience in working with developmental trauma and attachment.

In this conversation, she tells us how working with children has changed over her nineteen years of clinical experience, and how, as a society, we seem to have moved towards a more diagnostic framing of children’s differences and difficulties. She talks about how the question of autism or ADHD is now frequently part of her work, when previously it would not have been. We talk about how children’s behaviour and distress can always be viewed through different lenses, depending on the perspective of the adults around them.

We discuss the way that professionals try to help, and how a diagnosis can be essential for children and families in accessing support. We talk about the many different roles that a diagnosis plays, and the dilemmas that this creates for professionals and families. This is an honest conversation about the real-life tensions of clinical practice with distressed children and their families.

We hope you enjoy it.

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In the fourth episode of Let’s Talk Neurosense, we talked to Katy Elphinstone, autistic advocate, researcher and author of How to Raise Happy Neurofabulous Children: A Parent’s Guide. She got in touch after our interview with Uta Frith (in episode one), as she wanted to respond to several of the points made.

Katy’s work focuses on autism, empathy and social justice, all from an autistic perspective. In this episode, Katy explained why she thinks autism is a social justice issue and why we need to become more aware of where the power lies. It’s a great conversation which touches on many important issues.

Katy created a reference list for this episode which can be found on the link below.

We hope you enjoy it.

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In this week's episode of Let's Talk Neurosense, neurodivergent GP Victoria Galvis talks to us about the importance, as she sees it, of the concept of neurodivergence in primary care settings, and how she is helping people in her clinical practice. Victoria is the co-author of the book Neurodivergence in Primary Care. We consider, amongst many topics, what might be the motivations of people who come at this topic from different perspectives.As always, let us know what you think of the ideas presented, and how they fit with your own experience or clinical practice.

In this latest episode of Let's Talk Neurosense, we talk to Katherine Uher, autistic psychotherapist and mum to her autistic son. Katherine is one of many people who got in touch with us following the release of our interview with Uta Frith. We had a really interesting discussion, touching on key issues such as masking, neurodivergence and neurotypicality, and what school's need in order to be able to meet the needs of autistic and neurodivergent children.

We recorded this interview before Uta gave an interview to the TES which created waves across X/Twitter. We’re releasing this now as it gives further depth to the issues Uta touched upon in her TES interview.

Please note there is some outdated language used in the podcast which some may find offensive.