Melissa is joined by Emma Dean, an accomplished Australian musician, performer, and community choir leader. They discuss Emma's journey from classical violinist to professional performer, and her eventual transition to leading community music projects. Emma shares candidly about experiencing "cruel optimism" in the music industry and how hitting "rock bottom" led her to start the Cheep Trill community choir from her friend's veranda in Brisbane - a decision that would transform not only her career but her sense of self and wellbeing.

The conversation explores how leading community music provides a different kind of fulfilment from professional performing. Emma shares practical insights about inclusive teaching methods and creating safe spaces for musical expression. Her story illustrates how musicians can find meaningful work beyond traditional performance careers, while still maintaining their creativity and musical excellence.

Other resources mentioned during the show:

Musgrave, G., Gross, S. A., & Klein, M. (2024). The dark side of optimism: Musical dreams, belief, and gambling. Musicae Scientiae, 28(4), 634–648. https://doi.org/10.1177/10298649241230673

Gross, S. A., & Musgrave, G. (2020). Can music make you sick? Measuring the price of musical ambition. University of Westminster Press.

Upbeat Arts Absolutely Everybody Choir 

Too Fat For Ballet 

This one time at bandcamp 

Zen Zen Zo 

Rainbow Bop 

This project was made possible by The Winston Churchill Trust’s Impact Fund, supporting Churchill Fellows to achieve impact in Australia following their Fellowship travels. Read more about the Churchill Trust and other Fellowship stories at ChurchillFellowship.com.au

The musicians who make a real difference in our communities aren't household names – they're the leaders creating meaningful social connections through participatory music-making.

Join singer, researcher, and community music leader Dr Melissa Forbes as she explores how these remarkable but unsung musicians are revitalizing our social health. Drawing on insights from positive psychology and leadership research, each episode features conversations with music leaders who are building belonging through their work.

Whether you're a musician seeking meaningful work, a music educator training future leaders, or a health professional interested in music's social impact, discover practical strategies for creating positive change through music.

Let's make music that matters.

New episodes are released on the first of the month.

This project was made possible by The Winston Churchill Trust’s Impact Fund, supporting Churchill Fellows to achieve impact in Australia following their Fellowship travels. Read more about the Churchill Trust and other Fellowship stories at ChurchillFellowship.com.au

Introducing a new podcast, Leading Notes, which showcases musicians leading the revitalization of social health in our communities.

This project was made possible by The Winston Churchill Trust’s Impact Fund, supporting Churchill Fellows to achieve impact in Australia following their Fellowship travels. Read more about the Churchill Trust and other Fellowship stories at ChurchillFellowship.com.au

As universities face what Vicki Bos calls a "crisis of connection," with international students increasingly disconnected from campus life, group singing emerges as a powerful tool for building meaningful relationships and fostering genuine belonging. 

Episode Description

Vicki Bos shares insights from her work leading UQ Voices, a mental health research choir at the University of Queensland. Learn how her five key community-building strategies through choral singing create meaningful connections among international and domestic students, moving beyond surface-level interactions to foster belonging and connection.

Key Topics Discussed

• The crisis of connection in universities and its impact on student wellbeing, especially international students
• Five strategies for community building: rapport, interaction, personalization, ownership, and achievement
• The role of choir leaders in fostering mental health benefits
• Building inclusive spaces for international students
• The power of learning songs in multiple languages

Resources

• TEDx Talk
• Read Vicki's research in Australian Voice here.
• Raise Your Voice International Student Choir Festival

About Vicki Bos

Education professional development specialist and director of UQ Voices, the University of Queensland School of Psychology mental health research choir. With experience across Australia, Japan, Macau, Brazil, and Chile, Vicki specializes in using choral singing to teach language, build community, and improve mental health outcomes.

Connect with Vicki

• On Facebook

Connect with Melissa

• LinkedIn
• Join the conversation about positive music leadership and community music making
• Share your thoughts about this episode using https://leadingnotespodcast.podbean.com/

  This project was made possible by The Winston Churchill Trust’s Impact Fund, supporting Churchill Fellows to achieve impact in Australia following their Fellowship travels. Read more about the Churchill Trust and other Fellowship stories at ChurchillFellowship.com.au

In this powerful episode of Leading Notes, we speak with Melissa Gill, former program leader of the Absolutely Everybody Choir, about the transformative power of singing for mental health and wellbeing. Drawing from her unique background in both music and human resources, Melissa shares how she created safe spaces for people experiencing mental health challenges to rediscover their voices – literally and metaphorically.

With remarkable candor, Melissa discusses the delicate balance between maintaining professional boundaries and creating genuine human connections in wellbeing-focused choirs. She opens up about her own journey with burnout and the importance of self-care in this emotionally demanding work. Through stories of transformation and resilience, Melissa reveals how group singing can help people rebuild confidence, form meaningful relationships, and step back into their lives.

Join us for an honest conversation about the challenges and profound rewards of using music to create positive change in people's lives, and learn why Melissa describes this as "the best and most important work" of her life.

Melissa G is a busy lady, and you may hear her phone notifications vibrating during some of this conversation - but what she was saying at the same time was too good to edit most the notifications out!

Upbeat Arts

Sing Sing Sing Dementia Choir

 

 

In this episode of Leading Notes, we speak with James Sills, a vocal leader, energizer, and connector who's revolutionizing how we think about group singing. From football terraces to corporate boardrooms, James shares how he's bringing the transformative power of singing to unexpected places, including his groundbreaking new BBC project 'Bantam of the Opera.'

Drawing from his journey from high school music teacher to innovative community music leader, James reveals how he creates safe spaces for authentic connection through singing, while maintaining musical integrity. He discusses his philosophy of 'meeting people where they are' and explains why singing is such a powerful tool for building community in our increasingly disconnected world.

Join us for an inspiring conversation about making singing accessible to all, the importance of running your own race, and how a portfolio career in community music can create both social impact and sustainable living. Whether you're a musician, educator, or simply curious about the power of collective singing, this episode offers fresh perspectives on using music to create meaningful connection.

https://www.james-sills.com/

https://www.thesofasingers.com/

https://www.james-sills.com/home/book

https://www.bbc.co.uk/cityofculture/bradford2025/bantam-of-the-opera/

Episode Description

Chris Blain discusses his evolution from professional a cappella performer to community music facilitator, sharing insights about inclusive music making and the importance of creating spaces where everyone can participate. Learn how his work with Men in Suits and With One Voice is helping to rebuild singing traditions and foster positive masculinity through group singing.

Key Topics Discussed

• Creating inclusive spaces for all abilities and backgrounds
• The importance of joy over perfection in music making
• Building community through men's singing
• Strategies for inclusive music facilitation
• The role of music in fostering connection and wellbeing

Notable Quotes

"Live music is about changing the way people feel. And you don't do that with excellence. You do that with heart and with soul, and with connecting with people."

"It's never about the song, it's about the moment you're creating. The song is just a vehicle."

"Just lean towards joy... I just started leaning towards the things that made me happier and away from the things that made me tired and grumpy and cynical."

Resources Mentioned

• Men in Suits
• I've Got the House To Myself Today by Men in Suits
• Creativity Australia
• SUADE

About Chris Blain

Choir Operations Coordinator at Creativity Australia and conductor of With One Voice Whitehorse. Musical director of men's choir Men In Suits and director of Melbourne Singing Events. Former founding director of Vocal Australia and operations manager at MusoMagic. Chris brings decades of experience in both professional performance and community music facilitation.

Connect with Chris

• Men in Suits

Connect with Melissa

• LinkedIn
• Join the conversation about positive music leadership and community music making
• Share your thoughts about this episode using https://leadingnotespodcast.podbean.com/

  This project was made possible by The Winston Churchill Trust’s Impact Fund, supporting Churchill Fellows to achieve impact in Australia following their Fellowship travels. Read more about the Churchill Trust and other Fellowship stories via the website ChurchillFellowships.com.au

In this special solo episode, Melissa announces the publication of her new book, "Making Music That Matters: Positive Music Leadership for Social Health". She explores how musicians can address the crisis of social connection through community music-making, offering evidence-based frameworks for building meaningful careers whilst fostering social health and wellbeing.

"This book is my attempt to bridge two realities—to show that there's a way to have a fulfilling, sustainable career in music whilst also addressing one of the most pressing challenges of our time: the loss of human connection."

Endorsements

Professor Kim S. Cameron (University of Michigan) "This wonderfully creative book shows how music transforms lives, teams, organizations, and society."

Dr Dave Camlin (Trinity Laban, UK) "An essential read for emerging music leaders to help make sense of the complex and exciting traditions of socially transformational music making."

Professor Alexandra Lamont (University of Queensland) "Well-researched and theoretically-grounded ... explores the less-well studied worlds of those who lead and facilitate democratic participatory music making."

Book Details

Title: Making Music That Matters: Positive Music Leadership for Social Health Author: Melissa Forbes Publisher: Routledge Publication Date: 22 October 2025

ISBN Information:

• Paperback: 9781032730660
• Hardback: 9781032724157
• eBook: 9781003426509

Singing as Collective Care: Trauma-Informed Choral Leadership with Joanna Brooke

In this episode, Melissa speaks with choral conductor and soprano Joanna Brooke about her unique approach to music-making that sits at the intersection of musical excellence and trauma-informed care. Joanna shares how she creates spaces where people can reconnect with their birthright to sing, moving beyond Western cultural barriers of musical elitism to foster genuine human connection through voice.

Drawing on her background in social work and over 10 years of choral conducting experience, Joanna discusses her innovative practice of reclaiming improvisation, shifting from production-focused to expression-centered music-making, and developing what she calls "singing as collective care" - the focus of her new PhD at the University of Melbourne.

Key Topics Discussed

Confronting Musical Elitism

• How Western contexts create feelings of unworthiness around singing
• The concept of singing as a birthright versus attachment to skill and ability
• Creating spaces for people to shed learned limitations and reconnect with organic vocal expression

Trauma-Informed Musical Practice

• Setting up spaces with trauma-informed principles without pathologizing the experience
• The importance of choice, safety, and never requiring solo participation
• Viewing disconnection from singing as trauma work requiring restoration

Reclaiming Improvisation

• Moving beyond jazz and classical virtuosity concepts to experimental, free-form singing
• Using musical motifs and compositional structures as containers for safe exploration
• The role of power-sharing and authentic participation by musical leaders

From Production to Expression

• Shifting focus from audience-oriented outcomes to present-moment experience
• Balancing expression-centered goals with aesthetically pleasing results
• The trauma-informed importance of ensuring beautiful collective sound

Feminine Leadership in Music

• Challenging masculine conducting stereotypes of control and certainty
• Exploring communal, open, fluid, and emotional leadership approaches
• The gendered aspects of musical leadership and ethics of care

Arts and Health Integration

• Bridging the gap between artistic practice and therapeutic outcomes
• The distinction between art-making and therapy while acknowledging therapeutic benefits
• Creating dialogue between arts and health practitioners

About Joanna

Joanna Brooke is a choral conductor and soprano based in Melbourne with over 10 years of experience leading choirs. She currently serves as musical director of the Monash University Choral Society and has worked as artistic director of the Jubilate Singers and with Gondwana Choirs.

With training in social work, Joanna's unique practice sits at the intersection of music and trauma-informed care. She leads research into trauma-informed creative arts interventions and presents at arts health conferences and events. In 2025, she commenced a PhD at the University of Melbourne exploring "singing as collective care."

Connect with Joanna

Find Joanna on LinkedIn

Jane York shares her insights on the importance of community music-making, creating safe and playful spaces for singers, and how language choices can either include or exclude participants. She discusses her approach to leading community singing groups, including her "show and tell" performance model that creates a more comfortable alternative to traditional concert performances.

Topics Discussed

- The importance of community in our individualistic society - How community music provides connection across social barriers - Creating safe, playful environments for amateur musicians - The role of vulnerability and authenticity in music leadership - Depressurising the musical experience through humour and self-deprecation - Language choices that promote inclusivity in community music settings - Alternative performance models that prioritise connection over perfection - The transformative power of singing together

Notable Quotes

- "Please make some loud mistakes, you know, because that's how we learn, and that's how we, you know, improve. So it's a constant reiteration of this is a safe place to just be learning and not perfect yet, and we only learn through being bad at something multiple times. And then we improve." - Jane York - "The way the voice, the sound, changes, the strength, the vulnerability depending on our lived experiences, depending on what we're going through - it is really beautiful." - Jane York - "I'm not very interested in that old fashioned dynamic of expert and the students. I hope that my groups feel like we're just on a journey together." - Jane York - "I love music, and that's the impression I want to leave - just my deep love of the music that I'm teaching them, and my love of singing as opposed to my expertise at singing." - Jane York

About Jane York

Jane York is the founder of several community music initiatives including contemporary community choir Just Holla, workshop project Big Feminist Sing, and the ukulele group Strumming Singers. Her music leadership roles span universities, health and arts organisations, and community centres. Jane is also a regular guest conductor for many choirs, an experienced festival choir leader, and workshop facilitator. During Melbourne's COVID lockdowns, she led online lunchtime live sing-alongs, maintaining musical community when people needed it most. Jane can often be found leading singing at protests and fundraisers, using music as a tool for social change and community building.

Connect with Jane

- Jane on LinkedIn 

From wrong to strong: Positive psychology and character strengths for musicians

Both positive psychology and music leadership focus on human potential and growth. While traditional psychology often focuses on fixing what's wrong, positive psychology emphasizes developing what's strong - a principle that aligns perfectly with effective music leadership. Understanding our character strengths helps us lead authentically, create psychologically safe spaces for music making, and guide others toward meaningful musical experiences.

In this episode, Dr. Raina Murnak explores how positive psychology's emphasis on character strengths can transform music education and leadership. Whether leading a classroom, choir, or ensemble, knowing your strengths signature helps you lead from a place of authenticity rather than trying to emulate others.

Key Topics

• What is positive psychology, and how does it differ from "toxic positivity"?
• Character strengths assessment and development
• Breaking free from the performer/teacher binary in music careers
• The importance of authenticity in teaching and performance
• Challenging traditional approaches to music education

Notable Quotes

• "Nothing leads with its worst part and becomes something that we love. But music training ends up being that way."
• "Every moment that I perceived as a failure or something I wasn't really great at doing is because I was violating my own principles."
• "When you are really in flow with yourself, great things happen."

Resources Mentioned

• VIA Character Strengths Survey
• "Positive Psychology for Music Professionals: Character Strengths" by Raina Murnak and Nancy Kirsner (Routledge)
• Dr Rick Hanson's HEAL method for hardwiring positivity: Have the experience, Enrich it, Absorb it, Link it

About Dr. Raina Murnak

Assistant Professor and Director of Contemporary Voice and Performance Artistry at the University of Miami's Frost School of Music. With over 20 years of collegiate music teaching experience, Dr. Murnak has developed innovative approaches to music education combining positive psychology with practical industry skills.

Follow Raina on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/rainasiforbeauty/

Raina's website

Episode Highlights

• The importance of understanding and working with your character strengths
• How positive psychology can transform music education Breaking down traditional barriers in music theory teaching
• The value of authenticity in musical expression
• Expanding career possibilities for musicians beyond performing and teaching

Connect with Melissa Forbes on LinkedIn  Join the conversation about positive music leadership and community music making and share your thoughts about this episode using #LeadingNotes

Leading Notes is a podcast exploring innovative approaches to music leadership and education. Find more episodes at https://leadingnotespodcast.podbean.com/

This project was made possible by The Winston Churchill Trust’s Impact Fund, supporting Churchill Fellows to achieve impact in Australia following their Fellowship travels. Read more about the Churchill Trust and other Fellowship stories at ChurchillFellowship.com.au

In this episode, Melissa speaks with Dr Francis Yapp, Senior Lecturer and Academic Director of the School of Music at the University of Canterbury in Christchurch, New Zealand. They explore the world of community music and its place in tertiary education. Francis shares his journey from classical training to community music leadership, discusses the innovative community music pathway at Canterbury, and addresses the ongoing debate about institutionalising grassroots musical practices.

Key Topics Discussed

• Defining community music - Exploring what community music means and how it differs from traditional music education approaches
• Francis's journey to community music - From classical cellist to community music leader, advocate, and educator
• The University of Canterbury's community music pathway - Origins, curriculum, and graduate outcomes of this innovative programme
• Teaching philosophy - How group singing and cello teaching experiences shape Francis's pedagogical approach
• The institutionalisation debate - Addressing concerns about bringing grassroots community music practices into academic settings
• Māori musical practices - Discussion of waiata, kapa haka, and other traditional forms as examples of community music

Māori terms used in this episode:

• Waiata - Māori songs that serve various cultural purposes and are central to Māori identity
• Kapa haka - Traditional Māori performing arts including singing, dancing, and chanting
• Marae - A communal and sacred meeting ground in Māori culture where formal greetings and discussions take place
• Taonga puoro - Traditional Māori musical instruments, considered cultural treasures
• Kura Kaupapa Māori - Māori-language immersion schools operating under Māori custom and using Māori as the medium of instruction
• Te Reo Māori - The Māori language

Connect with Guest

• University of Canterbury School of Music
• Connect with Francis on LinkedIn
• Listen to Salve Regina

In this episode, Melissa speaks with Phoene Cave, a registered music therapist, creative project manager, singer, trainer, and reflective practice supervisor who has spent two decades building social connections through music in some of the most challenging settings imaginable.

From working with female offenders in high-security prisons to pioneering Singing for Lung Health programs, Phoene brings a unique perspective on how music can create meaningful change. She's trained over 350 facilitators globally and is now bringing creative health toolkits to nursing students, helping healthcare workers discover the power of creativity for both self-care and patient care.

Phoene's philosophy of "creative compassionate disruption" informs everything she does, from her music therapy practice to her work with community musicians. In this conversation, she shares insights on establishing trust and safety, the importance of supervision and reflective practice, and why she believes compassion and empathy need to be balanced with healthy boundaries to prevent burnout.

Key Topics Discussed

Singing for Lung Health Training

• How Phoene became a world specialist through learning on the job at Royal Brompton Hospital (2007)
• The evolution from in-person to online training during the pandemic
• Training over 350 facilitators globally, including respiratory nurses and physiotherapists
• The importance of embodied practice and understanding respiratory issues

Music Therapy vs Community Music

• The subtle distinctions between working as a music therapist and a community musician
• How both can achieve similar outcomes, but with different levels of articulation and awareness
• The power of music to shift narratives and create alternative experiences

Creative Health Training for Healthcare Workers

• Providing creative health toolkits to nursing students at Roehampton University
• The overwhelming soundscapes in hospitals and their impact on staff wellbeing
• Teaching self-care through breath, movement, creative writing, and music
• How creativity provides agency and encourages thinking outside the box

Supervision and Reflective Practice

• Why supervision is vital for community musicians, especially those in challenging settings
• The difference between music therapy supervision and reflective practice for community musicians
• Compassion fatigue and the importance of boundaries

Values and Approach

• Safety, trust, love, and presence as starting points with any group
• The importance of physical space and "resonance" - being aware 360 degrees
• Creative compassionate disruption as a guiding philosophy
• Working in your "back body" - listening openly rather than being overly focused

Personal Journey

• Training as a jazz improviser at Goldsmiths and overcoming challenges as a female vocalist
• Multiple music therapy trainings creating an unusual and valuable perspective
• The transition from performer to facilitator and finding fulfilment in giving others a voice
• Discovering neurodivergence later in life

About Guest

Phoene Cave is a registered music therapist, creative project manager, singer, trainer, and reflective practice supervisor in the creative health field. She has spent two decades working with diverse communities in nurseries, schools, further and higher education, concert halls, social housing, care homes, hospitals, and a detention centre and prison.

Phoene is recognised as a world specialist in Singing for Lung Health, having trained over 350 facilitators globally since 2015. Her work bridges the worlds of music therapy, community music, and healthcare, bringing creative approaches to both patient care and healthcare worker wellbeing.

Her philosophy of "creative compassionate disruption" informs all her work, from facilitating sessions in challenging environments to training the next generation of creative health practitioners. She is currently working on recording an album revisiting songs from her earlier career as a jazz vocalist.

Connect with Guest

• Website: www.phoenecave.co.uk
• The Transit Collective: https://transitcollective.org/

Episode Highlights

[00:02:00] - The journey to becoming a Singing for Lung Health specialist - from answering an advertisement to training 350 facilitators globally

[00:06:15] - Learning on the job: the benefits and challenges of building the plane while flying it

[00:10:43] - What's the difference between music therapy and community music? A nuanced exploration

[00:15:18] - Establishing trust and safety: the starting point with any group, from prisoners to patients

[00:25:08] - Creative Health Toolkits for nursing students: transforming healthcare through creativity

[00:30:09] - The flow-on benefits when healthcare workers have creative tools for self-care

[00:35:04] - What is supervision in music therapy and why it matters for community musicians

[00:43:56] - Compassion fatigue: the danger of being a caring empath without boundaries

[00:46:25] - Why Phoene doesn't miss performing on stage (but is recording an album)

[00:49:50] - Advice to her 18-year-old self: "You have ADHD, and you're actually fine"

This episode features Liz Lecoanet, an international vocal specialist who's pioneering the integration of singing into healthcare and workplace wellbeing. As the first wellbeing choral conductor employed by New South Wales Health in Australia, Liz shares her passionate mission to make singing as prescribable as exercise, revealing how she co-founded "Singing for Health" with GP Dr Isabel Hansen, a singing group for medical professionals.

Liz's journey from opera stages in London and New York to hospital wards reveals a profound shift: the most powerful music happens when we stop trying to "get it right" and start listening.

This conversation explores the essential balance between doing and being, the difference between community music and performance, and why Liz is convinced that singing is an essential service. Liz's infectious energy and unwavering conviction that singing is a human right make this a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of arts, health, and social change.

Topics Discussed

• The birth of Singing for Health: How a frustrated conversation about people being told they "can't sing" led to a partnership between music and medicine
• Prescribing singing like exercise: The campaign to have GPs prescribe singing as a health intervention
• Creating safe spaces for vulnerability: Why healthcare workers particularly need permission to "get it wrong"
• The yin-yang of modern life: How singing provides essential balance to our "tick-box" culture
• Opera training meets community practice: Navigating the transition from perfectionism to presence
• Embodied leadership: How physical presence and authentic passion create permission for others
• Medical conferences and boardrooms: Strategies for convincing sceptics through experience
• The social movement: Positioning arts and health as fundamental rather than supplementary
• Indigenous wisdom: Reconnecting with singing as inherent human expression

Notable Quotes

"I just want to go into a court of law and prove what this does to somebody when you tell them that they can't sing... what it does to your immune system, what it does to your relationships, how that changes your workplace... if you tell someone they don't have a voice, what that does to their life, and how you are robbing them of being a human being."

"Everybody's breathing in the room, so they qualify as a singer, because they're breathing."

"You don't need to be a professional soccer player to take a walk around the block and get some exercise. That's what I'm talking about in terms of singing."

"The world of light, the world of doing... we're very busy yang orientated, light people. But very seldom do we actually close our eyes and just listen."

"When people discover [their voice], they go from being a waitress to a manager in their café, or they get out of a crappy relationship, they ask their boss for a raise."

"These are health workers that were burnt out before COVID, and they came to choir every week online to be muted. If that doesn't tell anyone that's an essential service, what the hell does?"

"We need that element. It's missing from some people's lives. And it's got to happen if humanity is going to rise up."

"Let's not try and make this into anything, let's just trust our humanity, and trust the song, and trust that it will be something."

About Liz

Liz Lecoanet is an international vocal specialist and choir conductor who bridges the worlds of professional performance and community wellbeing. With training from London's opera houses and performance experience in New York, she brings a unique perspective to participatory music-making. As the first wellbeing choral conductor employed by New South Wales Health, she co-founded the Singing for Health programme with Dr Isabel Hansen, pioneering the integration of singing into healthcare settings.

Liz received the Hidden Hero of Sydney Award from the City of Sydney in 2014 for conducting Creativity Australia's With One Voice Choir, which grew to over 180 members and became the subject of the award-winning documentary "Sing Your Little Heart Out." She has worked internationally, including with Beth Israel Hospital in New York using sound for pain management, and continues to present at medical conferences on the health benefits of singing.

Today, Liz conducts multiple community choirs across Sydney, brings singing into workplaces to nurture connection and creativity, and works tirelessly—often voluntarily—to establish singing as a prescribable health intervention in Australia. Her approach emphasises listening over performing, presence over perfection, and the fundamental human right to use one's voice.

Connect with Liz

https://lizlecoanet.com/

Episode Highlights

[00:02:17] Liz's passionate declaration about "proving in court" what denying someone's voice does to their life sets the tone for the entire conversation

[00:09:21] The art of holding space for healthcare workers who desperately need permission to make mistakes

[00:12:01] How Liz had to unlearn perfectionism

[00:23:33] The yin-yang philosophy: Why the realm of sound and listening is the essential remedy to modern life

[00:31:47] Getting GPs singing at an international conference—the power of experiential proof

[00:39:14] "Can't Help Falling in Love" as the perfect stranger-uniting song: accessible range, no politics or religion

[00:41:27] Liz's magic wand wish: Singing spaces as normal as GP visits, supported by government, accessible to all

Call to Action

If you're inspired by Liz's mission to make singing a prescribable health intervention, consider:

• Finding or starting a community singing group in your area
• Supporting the social prescribing movement in Australia
• Sharing this episode with healthcare professionals and policymakers
• Remembering that if you're breathing, you qualify as a singer

Join the social movement to make music that matters—because as Liz reminds us, singing before speaking is our human heritage, and reclaiming our voices is essential for humanity to rise above the challenges of modern life.

Joel Carnegie—conductor, broadcaster, and storyteller—talks about Awkwardstra Geelong, a community orchestra that is quietly doing some of the most important social work in the business.

Joel shares how he came to Awkwardstra after a demanding period in his professional life, and why the experience fundamentally changed how he thinks about music and leadership. This episode is a masterclass in what inclusive, values-driven music-making can look like in practice.

Joel also reflects on his background as a storyteller and how narrative — including the music itself — can convey the value of community music in ways statistics simply can't. Drawing on his training in acting methods and voice work, he offers a thoughtful account of what it means to lead from the podium with empathy, clarity, and a willingness to sit with uncertainty.

This conversation is full of practical wisdom and genuine inspiration.

Key Topics Discussed

• The origins of Awkwardstra Geelong and Joel's path to becoming its conductor
• What radical inclusivity looks like in a community orchestra and the practical structures that support it
• Managing a wide range of skill levels and experience: music selection, coaching programs, and section support
• The "Awky Pass" and how the collective supports individual members facing financial barriers
• The tension between musical quality and inclusivity and why it can be a generative rather than a destructive tension
• The role of story in making the case for community music, including a commissioned piece built from players' own stories
• How acting training and voice work inform Joel's practice as a conductor and ensemble leader
• Empathy, clarity, and openness as core qualities in music leadership
• What music leadership has to offer organisational leadership more broadly
• Advice for young musicians interested in community music

Notable Quotes

"Making music for the joy of it, for creating connections across the community, and for offering people an opportunity to extend themselves — that's really what we're doing here."

"The podium never lies. There's no one else you can really be except yourself up there."

"We start every rehearsal by recognising that we've all had whatever happened during the day, and we take a moment to arrive into the space — intentionally — and remember that we're in physical bodies playing instruments that are physical."

"Music allows us to feel. And when we can feel, we can connect with other people. We're in the business of feeling-making and moment-making."

"People getting together and playing music is eternal. And those who are providing the structure for that to happen are creating guardrails and forms of resilience and resistance."

"Just because it's not happening in Sydney or Melbourne doesn't mean it is not of value."

Resources Mentioned

• Awkwardstra Geelong — community orchestra based in Geelong, VIC
• Kym Dillon — composer, pianist, and arranger who created a piece for Awkwardstra based on players' stories; performing with the orchestra again at the Geelong Arts Centre, 17 October 2026
• Pako Festa (Pakington Street Festival) — Geelong's largest street festival; Awkwardstra performed as a flash mob opening act
• Ingrid Martin — Joel's conducting coach
• ABC Classic Evenings — national radio program hosted by Joel Carnegie

About Guest

Joel Carnegie is a conductor, performer, and storyteller whose work spans live music, broadcasting, and community engagement. Each weeknight he hosts the national Evenings program on ABC Classic, and his storytelling work has earned recognition at the New York Festivals International Radio Awards and The Whickers, a prestigious international award for audio storytelling.

From 2015 to 2024, Joel was Founder and Head of Storytelling at The Space Company, where he led the creation of music-rich podcasts, screen productions, and live stage works — including the nationally touring double bill Stardust + The Mission, which involved over 200 local musicians across 45 cities. A graduate of the Australia Council's Future Leaders program, he holds degrees from the University of Melbourne, Swinburne, and Deakin, with performance training in Graz, Austria.

Joel is now the Conductor of Awkwardstra Geelong, a community orchestra built on a simple but radical idea: that making music together should be open to everyone.

Connect with Guest

https://www.joelcarnegie.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joelcarnegie/

Episode Highlights

[00:01:47] How Awkwardstra began — and why Joel joined [00:05:37] The philosophy behind the name and what inclusivity looks like in the rehearsal room [00:14:57] Removing barriers: the Awky Pass, coaching programs, and community support [00:18:09] Musical quality vs. inclusivity — a generative tension [00:22:19] The power of story in community music, and commissioning Kim Dillon [00:28:13] Why Joel pursued acting methods and voice training — and how they shape his leadership [00:32:24] The most important qualities in a music leader: empathy, openness, clarity [00:36:28] What music leadership offers that other leadership models don't [00:39:23] Advice for young musicians

Dr Belinda Densley has spent more than 30 years facilitating community singing groups in Geelong, Victoria, and over that time she came to understand that the work was never really about the voice. It was about the mechanics of heart, soul, and mind. That realisation led her through a Masters in Counselling and Psychotherapy and ultimately to a recently completed PhD, in which she developed a grounded theory of group singing facilitation she calls Creating Song Magic.

In this episode, Belinda unpacks that theory, exploring the four core dimensions of the facilitator's role: advocating for people's right to sing, curating repertoire that creates meaningful experiences, welcoming and sustaining harmonious expression in the room, and contributing to the transformation of communities. She also speaks candidly about the "hidden work" that singing facilitators do — work that has remained largely invisible, under-resourced, and poorly defined, even within music and community health sectors.

We talk about what it means to reframe the singing facilitator as a community health resource, the importance of boundary-setting and reflective practice, and why Belinda believes trauma-informed relational skills should be foundational to any future training for facilitators. She also shares a deeply moving story about a love-and-loss singing session that rippled far beyond the room.

Key Topics Discussed

• The burning question behind Belinda's PhD
• Why the singing facilitator role has remained hidden 
• The four categories of Creating Song Magic: advocating, curating, welcoming and sustaining harmonious expression, and transforming communities
• The difference between participatory, circle-based singing and performance-oriented models like pub choir
• The facilitator as a community health resource and the consequences of that role remaining unrecognised and underfunded
• Boundary-setting in facilitation, and how clarity within the facilitator translates to clarity for participants
• The case for trauma-informed, relational training for singing facilitators 
• Sharing research findings through a five-part podcast series as an accessible alternative to academic publishing
• The systemic barriers community singing groups face in accessing physical spaces
• The role of autonomous health-seeking behaviour in group singing participation

Notable Quotes

"The work was never really about the mechanics of the voice — it was about the mechanics of heart, soul, and mind."

"You have the fundamental human right to sing. You can sing."

"We're not asking, are we trying to get the notes to be accurate? We're trying to create the harmony that's beyond musical — a harmony of beingness, a harmony within community."

"People fell in love with the singing group and sometimes misplace that love for the facilitator. Getting clear on what your role is does so much of the work. The confusion really stops existing if you're not confused yourself."

"I don't advertise — people that come to me come via someone already in the group. There's already an expectation that there's going to be a wellbeing effect from coming."

"This thing that just happened today has caused so much therapeutic growth that is beyond the capacity of me as one individual."

"Singing with another allows so much possibility in — for love, actually, for love."

"There's no reason everyone in Australia can't be in a singing group once a week."

Resources

• Creating Song Magic — Belinda Densley's grounded theory of group singing facilitation (PhD research, Federation University Australia)
• Belinda's podcast documenting participant experiences of her singing groups 
• Acabellas

About Guest

Dr Belinda Densley is a singing facilitator, counsellor, and researcher based in Geelong, Victoria, Australia. For more than 30 years, she has facilitated community singing groups grounded in the belief that singing is a fundamental human right and a powerful vehicle for wellbeing, connection, and community transformation.

Belinda holds a Masters in Counselling and Psychotherapy and a PhD from Federation University Australia, where her research focused on the process of group singing facilitation itself. Her grounded theory, Creating Song Magic, is the first study of its kind to illuminate the complex, relational, and largely invisible work that skilled singing facilitators perform. She also teaches postgraduate counselling students and mentors emerging facilitators.

Alongside her research, Belinda has disseminated her PhD findings through an accessible five-part podcast series, reflecting her commitment to making practitioner knowledge available beyond academic audiences.

Connect with Belinda

• https://acabellas.com.au/contact/

Episode Highlights

02:00 — The burning question: what mechanisms beneath the wellbeing effects of group singing led Belinda to pursue a PhD?

03:00 — Why the singing facilitator role sits "in the middle of a lot of different areas" and has remained underexplored

05:30 — Singing as a "with" activity— participatory, relational, and whole-body expression

08:50 — Unpacking Creating Song Magic: advocating, curating, welcoming and sustaining harmonious expression, and transforming communities

13:00 — The role of community singing in a hyper-individualistic world: a radical reimagining of what community can be

19:40 — Autonomous health-seeking behaviour: why people come to Belinda's groups already expecting a wellbeing effect

22:00 — Grassroots growth versus scaled investment: how VicHealth and Community Music Victoria once blazed singing groups across Victoria

26:20 — A love-and-loss singing session: 70 people, no words — just song — and a ripple effect that extended far beyond the room

29:00 — The counselling background: why relational work, not musical training alone, is what takes facilitation to the next level

31:00 — Boundary-setting in practice: when participants misplace their love of the group onto the facilitator

34:00 — What Belinda would change: funded training programs, and council recognition of community singing groups in space allocation

39:00 — The closing questions: the lesson music has taught her about human connection, her song of choice for strangers, and her magic wand wish

What happens when a researcher brings together music education and criminology to advocate for the rights of some of society's most marginalised young people? In this episode, I speak with Dr Alexis Kallio, an interdisciplinary researcher whose work sits at a unique and important intersection—one that is challenging how institutions think about music, punishment, and what young people truly need to thrive.

Alexis shares how her background in both music education and criminology led her to focus on music programs in youth justice settings, and what she has learned from collaborating with Western Australian hip-hop artist Optimus (Scott Griffiths) on the Banksia Beats program at Banksia Hill Youth Detention Centre. She reflects on what it means to meet young people as musicians rather than as students, why ownership and trust are so transformative in carceral settings, and why trauma-informed practice is relevant for every musician working with young people, not just those in detention.

Throughout, Alexis makes a compelling case that music is not a luxury or a reward—it is a fundamental right for every child.

Key Topics Discussed

• How Alexis's degrees in both music education and criminology shaped her research focus on youth justice settings
• The Banksia Beats program at Banksia Hill Youth Detention Centre and what makes it effective
• Why meeting young people as musicians—rather than as teacher and student—is central to building trust
• The importance of agency, ownership, and strengths-based approaches in music programs for incarcerated youth
• Trauma-informed practice and why it matters across all music education contexts
• Why there is no one-size-fits-all pedagogical approach: responding to the individual in the room
• The concept of "hungry listening" (Dylan Robinson) and what it means for musicians working in community settings
• Alexis's national symposium on music, crime and social change and the community it has created
• The Policing Australian Popular Music project and its work with Queensland Police Service
• The case for music and music education as a fundamental right for every child

Notable Quotes

"At the end of the day, these are children."

"In a space where young people have ownership over literally nothing—they can't even choose the temperature of their shower—to have ownership over something with expensive music equipment, and have that as yours, can be a really powerful sense of pride."

"There is no one right way, because there's no one child."

"Music is all about connection. And connection is all about music."

"I'd like music and music education to be a right for every child, regardless of their background or circumstance—something that is seen as essential to their lives now, but also their growth."

"Young people's voices are sometimes articulated more clearly through their music than through any words they'll say to a social worker or a psychologist."

Resources Mentioned

• Hungry Listening by Dylan Robinson

About Guest

Dr Alexis Kallio is an interdisciplinary researcher at Griffith University whose work explores how music education and creative practices create opportunities for equity and justice, particularly for young people experiencing vulnerability or marginalisation. Drawing on expertise in both music education and criminology, Alexis examines how educators and musicians navigate questions of power, values, and meaning in their work. Her research bridges grassroots community practice with institutional frameworks, asking critical questions about how creative spaces can be structured to support positive youth development. She has taught across studio, school, university, and community settings in both Australia and Finland.

Connect with Alexis

Episode Highlights

• 05:00 Why Alexis sees all young people—regardless of setting—as deserving the same child-centred approach to music
• 13:30 What makes the Banksia Beats program so effective, and why musical expertise matters
• 15:45 The profound impact of ownership and trust in a detention centre music studio
• 22:00 Why music is uniquely positioned to develop both individual identity and social connection simultaneously
• 26:00 Dylan Robinson's concept of "hungry listening" and what it means to truly listen to young people
• 29:00 The national symposium on music, crime and social change—and finding your people
• 33:30 Alexis's submission to the youth justice inquiry and her challenge to the idea of incarceration as a solution
• 36:30 The Policing Australian Popular Music project and working with Queensland Police Service

Coming to our senses: How creativity helps us trust our own experience, with Dr Carla van Laar Show Notes

In this episode, I speak with Dr. Carla Van Laar, a creative and experiential therapist, painter, and passionate advocate for the creative revolution in mental health and wellbeing. With over 30 years' experience using the arts for health and wellbeing, Carla is the founding director of the Creative Mental Health Forum and convener of the Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia's (PACFA) College of Creative and Experiential Therapies.

Carla shares her compelling vision for how creativity can act as a reality check in a world that constantly asks us to outsource our sense of what's real. From her early childhood discovery of perspective in art through to her current advocacy work at a national level, Carla's journey illuminates why creative engagement is essential—not peripheral—to mental health and social wellbeing.

The conversation explores the disconnect between mounting evidence for creative arts therapies and their limited implementation in Australia's health system, the need for a rethink of biomedical models to better accommdate creative therapies, and what happens when we create accessible spaces where people can connect through the arts.

Key Topics Discussed

Creativity as a Reality Check

• How creativity restores trust in first-hand experiencing in a society that asks us to outsource our sense of reality
• The parallel between gaslighting dynamics and systemic forces that undermine our perception
• How creative practice brings us into the present moment and to our senses—sight, touch, hearing, taste, and scent

Creative Flow States and Wellbeing

• Research on the benefits of engaging in creative practice for as little as 20 minutes
• How flow states create a sense of timelessness, reduce stress, improve sleep, and help us meet life's challenges
• Navigating obstacles to creativity: inner critics, self-judgement, attachment to product over process

Personal Journey to Creative Arts Therapy

• How learning about perspective as a young child changed Carla's worldview
• Using creative practice to navigate uncertainty and make sense of the world through her own lenses
• The convergence of fine arts, community arts practice, and creative arts therapy

Systemic Advocacy and Reform

• Strategic positioning of creative arts therapies within the broader psychotherapy and counselling framework
• The 2020 push during COVID to ensure creative therapists were part of mental health system reforms
• Inclusion in national standards for the psychotherapy and counselling workforce

The Evidence Gap and Implementation Challenges

• Why the question "does it work?" is now outdated—World Health Organisation and global health bodies have established the benefits
• Creative engagement addresses isolation and loneliness, underlying causes of depression and mental ill-health
• The challenge of measuring relational, context-responsive practices using biomedical models
• Looking at return on investment differently: reduced hospital admissions, reduced burden on mental health services, suicide prevention

Rethinking Service Delivery Models

• The limitations of applying one-hour-a-week biomedical models to creative therapies
• Carla's vision for community creative health hubs where people can spend time, connect, participate, and be audiences
• The story of the Inverlock Pop-Up Art Co: what happens when creative spaces become accessible
• The gap between GP mental health care plans and accessible support

Shifting Worldviews

• Why awareness-raising alone isn't enough—people need embodied experience to understand the benefits
• The 85-year-old veteran who went from "what's this mumbo jumbo?" to "this creative stuff actually helps me" in 12 months
• Different forms of evidence: the persistence of creative and cultural practices over millennia as proof of efficacy
• The importance of policy makers and health professionals having their own creative experiences

Notable Quotes

"Creativity itself can and does restore our trust in first-hand experiencing in a world that keeps asking us to outsource our sense of reality."

"Our senses—whichever ones we love the most—can all be sources of wonderful information about the world around us. And they are the original source for us of our ways of knowing and navigating the world. Creativity in that way isn't seen as an escape from reality, it can actually be a reality check."

"Engaging in a creative practice of any form really brings us into the here and now. We have to be present, because that's where it's happening, right here, right now."

"Connection is the most important thing. We need connection, and in fact, us, like every other living thing, we gravitate towards connection. Everything is connected, everything wants to be connected. We're no different. We need connection to thrive."

"Tell me, and I'll forget. Show me, and I might remember, but involve me and I'll understand. When people experience for themselves the benefit, then that's the best evidence that a person can have—knowing that it's good for them."

"Look at our evidence. It's the evidence of continuing practice over millennia. It's the evidence that these things persist and continue, and people keep doing them, because people for that long have known that they work."

"What if there was a person who took that help seeker and actually literally walked across the road to a community creative hub, and introduced them to a couple of people there? That's what we're missing."

"I would wave my magic wand, and boom, inside or beside and alongside and co-located with every GP practice, library, community hub, there would be a community creative hub for every member of Australia's communities."

Resources Mentioned

Carla's Publications

• Seeing Her Stories – Explores making women's unseen stories visible through art and includes findings on how creativity brings us to our senses

Organisations and Initiatives

• Creative Mental Health Forum (founded by Carla)
• PACFA (Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia) – College of Creative and Experiential Therapies
• ACARTA (Australian Creative Arts Therapy Association) – founded by Carla and colleagues in 1999
• Inverlock Pop-Up Art Co – community arts initiative

Research and Policy

• World Health Organisation evidence on benefits of creative engagement
• VicHealth advocacy for creative engagement
• Creative Australia's work on creative engagement for communities
• National standards for the psychotherapy and counselling workforce (released 2024)

About Dr. Carla Van Laar

Dr. Carla Van Laar is a creative and experiential therapist, painter, and passionate advocate for the creative revolution in mental health and wellbeing. With over 30 years' experience using the arts for health and wellbeing in community organisations, justice, health, and education settings, Carla has dedicated her career to making creative therapeutic practices more accessible and embedded in Australia's mental health system.

As the founding director of the Creative Mental Health Forum and convener of the Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia's (PACFA) College of Creative and Experiential Therapies, Carla works at both grassroots and systemic levels to advocate for the profession. Her advocacy work spans decades, including founding the Australian Creative Arts Therapy Association (ACARTA) in 1999 as its inaugural president.

Carla currently lives and works on Boonwaring country in Inverloch, where she runs a welcoming art studio and creative therapies practice, working with NDIS participants, war veterans, and families affected by violence. Her work is grounded in the philosophy that arts-based practices are essential for healing our troubled world.

She has authored two books, including Seeing Her Stories, which explores making women's unseen stories visible through art. Known for community arts initiatives like the Inverloch Pop-Up Art Co, Carla insists on being part of a creative revolution where art re-embodies lived experience, brings us to our senses, and serves as an agent of social change.

Connect Carla 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlavanlaar/
• Website: https://carlavanlaar.com/

Episode Highlights

[00:02] Introduction to Dr. Carla Van Laar and her work in creative arts therapy

[01:51] Why we need to be brought back to our senses and how creativity helps

[02:50] The gaslighting boss metaphor: how systems undermine our perception of reality

[04:39] The biomedical model and the mind-body split

[05:16] Research findings: creativity brings us to our senses and into the present moment

[08:04] Ancient cultural practices that privileged social and emotional health

[08:46] Creative flow states: what happens when we engage for 20 minutes or more

[09:39] Navigating obstacles to creativity: inner critics and self-judgement

[12:02] Carla's journey into creative arts therapy

[13:03] How learning perspective as a young child changed her worldview

[15:52] Systemic advocacy work and the founding of ACARTA in 1999

[17:07] COVID and the push for mental health system reform

[18:03] Positioning creative arts therapies within PACFA's framework

[19:02] Working intermodally: visual arts, mindfulness, embodiment, and drama

[20:00] Inclusion in national standards for psychotherapy and counselling

[22:30] The disconnect between evidence and implementation

[23:01] The question "does it work?" is now outdated

[24:11] How creative engagement addresses isolation and loneliness

[25:25] Return on investment: reducing burden on health systems

[27:08] Why biomedical measurement methods don't fit relational practices

[28:08] The problem with one-hour-a-week creative therapy models

[28:26] Vision for community creative health hubs

[29:09] The challenge of patient perception: when GPs prescribe the arts

[30:00] The Parkinson's symposium experience: the unwavering belief in biomedical models

[31:01] The inherited systems we've internalized since birth

[31:45] Deferring our power to experts versus recognizing our own agency

[32:19] Working with resistant participants: the 85-year-old veteran's journey

[33:06] "Involve me and I'll understand": experience as the best evidence

[34:34] The need for policy makers to have embodied creative experiences

[35:12] Different views of evidence: persistence of practice over millennia

[36:04] Story of transformation: the Inverloch Pop-Up Art Co

[37:02] From empty accountant's office to thriving creative hub in 8 weeks

[37:48] 30 local artists emerged from the community

[38:42] Workshops flourished: juggling, ukulele, singing, meditation, life drawing

[39:02] Why the pop-up wasn't sustainable as an individual enterprise

[40:03] What's missing: accessible community creative spaces

[40:34] The mental health care plan scenario: 6-12 month waitlists when people are in crisis

[41:05] Imagining a different response: walking someone to a creative hub

[42:02] Final questions: the most important lesson about human connection

[42:34] Connection is what every living thing gravitates toward

[42:55] One song to bring randoms together: Bob Marley's "One Love" (with medley including "What the World Needs Now" and "All You Need Is Love")

[43:54] Magic wand wish: a community creative hub co-located with every GP practice and library

[44:34] Closing remarks