Grades and tests get in the way of learning for multiple reasons, but this episode digs deeper to explore how any practices that lead students to focus on how well they’re doing in school — as opposed to what they’re doing — are bad news. Policy makers who trumpet their demands for higher standards, “rigor,” and “raising the bar” may not realize that this focus on achievement makes kids think less about learning because, like a certain bald former mayor of New York City, they’re constantly asking, “How’m I doin’?”

For details about the harmful effects on learning of overemphasizing achievement, please see chapter 2 of The Schools Our Children Deserve (AlfieKohn.org/schools-children-deserve/).

A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Oh, and if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. Thanks!

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

This introductory episode offers an overview of education issues that will be discussed on the podcast — a sort of a Cliff’s Notes to what distinguishes traditional from progressive education. It takes the form of a (fictitious) principal’s remarks to parents delivered one evening in a school auditorium. The premise was inspired by a movie-satire feature that occasionally appeared in Mad magazine called “Scenes We’d Like to See.” It was also inspired (or, um, counterinspired) by some back-to-school talks we’ve actually heard.

A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Oh, and if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. Thanks!

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

If your company is offering unappealing food, you’ll be tempted to add artificial sweetener. And if your schools are offering unengaging lessons (which students had no role in creating), you’ll be tempted to use some kind of gimmick to make them seem less dreary. This episode considers how, long before “gamification,” John Dewey hit on the metaphor of sugarcoating to describe efforts to distract kids from the “barrenness” of what they were being made to do. Half a century later, give or take, a pair of early-childhood educators, Rheta DeVries and Betty Zan, hit on the same metaphor to explain how the use of rewards, including the verbal kind (“Good job!”), are mostly efforts to sugarcoat control. (If this podcast accepted ads, which it assuredly does not, you would expect one to run in this episode for a certain cereal mentioned by name that is tasty enough to require no artificial sweetening.)

A note from Alfie Kohn:
If you’re already signed up to receive an email when a new blog post appears on my website, the software gods have decreed that you’ll also get a notification as soon as each new episode of the podcast becomes available.  (If you want to opt out of that, you should be able to do so on the sign-up page.)

If you’re enjoying Kohn’s Zone, please let folks in your professional and personal circles know about it by forwarding a link to the page where it lives.

And if you can afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event — please consider supporting the project with whatever amount seems fair to you in order to keep it ad-free and make sure all content is freely available to everyone. Thanks!

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

Question: Why do so many people write off math as uninteresting if not downright unpleasant, and as something they just don’t have a knack for? Answer: Years of traditional instruction with textbooks and worksheets and quizzes, memorization of math facts and algorithms, direct instruction of the approved technique for arriving at the right answer (followed by endless practice problems) that leaves you with no understanding of what you’re doing, let alone why.

This extended episode of Kohn’s Zone features a spirited conversation with math educator Jo Boaler of Stanford University, who explains how we’re trapped by mistaken beliefs about how math should be taught – and what math is.

RESOURCES:

YouCubed.org — Boaler’s center for innovative math teaching

Books by Boaler: Math-ish, Mathematical Mindsets, What’s Math Got to Do With It?

A chapter by Kohn (from The Schools Our Children Deserve): “What Works Better than Traditional Math Instruction” (https://tinyurl.com/54mzvu69)

A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Oh, and if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. Thanks!

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

What do the following have in common?

a) parents who don’t seem particularly concerned about whether what their kids are doing in school is engaging or meaningful, but are quick to complain if their assignments aren’t sufficiently challenging

b) people who assume that Advanced Placement classes must be the best that a high school has to offer just because these classes are really tough

c) proponents of school reform who use the language of “rigor” and “raising the bar”

d) legislators and administrators who require students to take standardized tests that many successful adults would struggle to pass

The common denominator here is the deep-rooted assumption that, where schooling is concerned, higher quality is basically equivalent to greater difficulty. This episode of Kohn’s Zone explores how profoundly this misconception has shaped our understanding of schooling.

A note from Alfie Kohn:

If you’ve been enjoying, or at least listening to, the podcast but have put off doing your part to support it, I am pleased to inform you that it is not too late to do so. It will also not be too late tomorrow, but doing so today would be even better. Microphones, as my father might have said, do not grow on trees.  Please consider a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event — to keep us ad-free and unpaywalled.  Thanks!

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

The notion that kids today have it too easy and would benefit from more experiences with failure is no longer a surprising, contrarian claim; it has become the conventional wisdom. But it’s dead wrong on two levels: Most children deal with frustration and failure quite a lot, and those experiences tend not to be beneficial, according to research. Either naïveté or conservative ideology leads many adults to believe that when students fall short, they’ll react by trying harder next time. But more commonly students are trapped in a vicious cycle such that they’re even more likely to fail again — and they’re also apt to lose interest in what they’re doing and to prefer easier tasks. Educators and parents would do well to realize that the supposed benefits of failure are vastly overrated.

RESOURCES:

Lauren Eskreis-Winkler and Ayelet Fishbach, “Not Learning from Failure – the Greatest Failure of All,” Psychological Science 30 (2019): 1733-44

Lauren Eskreis-Winkler et al., “The Exaggerated Benefits of Failure,” Journal of Experimental Psychology – General 153 (2024): 1920-37

Ann K. Boggiano et al., “Competing Theoretical Analyses of Helplessness,” Journal of Experimental Child Psychology 55 (1993): 194-207

A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Oh, and if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. Thanks!

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

The posters and signs adorning school walls speak volumes about the people who put them there, revealing a surprising amount about their views of children, their assumptions about learning, and even their beliefs about human nature. There’s the enforced positivity of slogans that basically tell students: “Have a nice day….or else,” the individualistic worldview of inspirational slogans with their messages of strenuous uplift, the chirpy banalities airily informing kids that structural barriers don’t exist: All they need is perseverance and a dream, so they have only themselves to blame if they fail to achieve greatness. Nothing preserves the current arrangements of power more than messages that ignore the current arrangements of power. To see this principle in action, just visit a school — particularly one in a low-income neighborhood — and read the writing on the walls.

RESOURCES

– Demotivators: https://despair.com/collections/posters

– Barbara Ehrenreich: Bright-Sided: How Positive Thinking Is Undermining America (Metropolitan, 2009) (https://tinyurl.com/yr9vew3u)

A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Oh, and if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. Thanks!

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

People who express concern about the use of AI in schools often focus on how it allows students to get away with something (by using OpenAI to write their essays). But shouldn’t we be talking more about its potential effects on teaching and learning than whether it will impede our ability to evaluate students? The problem is not just that we seem to be overestimating the capabilities of LLMs but that we seem to be underestimating the essence of education, which is a process, not merely a series of products. Moreover, is it really a math or English teacher’s responsibility to train students in how to use AI? At best, that skill is quite different from learning to reason through a problem, read deeply, or organize one’s thoughts. At worst, AI offers a way for students to avoid doing those things.

RESOURCES:

Research:

Hamsta Bastani et al., “Generative AI Can Harm Learning,” 2024 (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4895486)

Nataliya Kosmyna et al., “Your Brain on ChatGPT,” 2025 (https://arxiv.org/pdf/2506.08872)

Michael Gerlich, “AI Tools in Society,” 2025 (https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4698/15/1/6)

Activism:

https://against-a-i.com/

https://stopgenai.com/

https://openletter.earth/an-open-letter-from-educators-who-refuse-the-call-to-adopt-genai-in-education-cb4aee75

Other critiques:

This episode overlaps with a recent essay by Alfie Kohn (“The Chatbot in the Classroom, the Forklift at the Gym” – https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/ai/), which contains dozens of links to provocative discussions of AI by other writers.

A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Oh, and if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about the episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

Suppose you wanted young people to develop a commitment to democracy, particularly at a time when it’s under assault. How would you do that? Not by creating a school culture in which following the rules is valued more than critical thinking. And not by offering conventional civics courses with mind-numbing recitations of facts about how government is supposed to work. There’s a big difference between teaching about a country’s political system (or even about democracy), on the one hand, and preparing students to be active participants in a democratic society, on the other. This extended episode of Kohn’s Zone features a lively conversation with educator Joel Westheimer, a professor at the University of Ottawa, who reflects on how even young children, with their natural concern about fairness, can be helped to reflect on democracy. But at what point does the promotion of democratic values shade into indoctrination? Conversely, when does a commitment to valuing multiple perspectives lapse into relativism? And is progressive teaching sufficient, or even necessary, for developing a commitment to democratic ideals?

RESOURCES:

Joel Westheimer, What Kind of Citizen?: Educating Our Children for the Common Good, rev. ed. (Teachers College Press, 2024)

Joel Westheimer, ed., Pledging Allegiance: The Politics of Patriotism in America’s Schools (Teachers College Press, 2007)

A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Oh, and if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. Also, if you have feedback about the episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

Too often the debate over homework is restricted to its quantity — or, at best, its quality. But such discussions take for granted the need for some homework, as if it were impossible to question that premise. It may come as a surprise, therefore, to learn that research generally fails to support the value of, let alone the need for, requiring children to complete more academic tasks when they get home from school. (For elementary and middle school students, no controlled studies have found a meaningful benefit to assigning any type or amount of homework.) So why is the practice still so pervasive and widely accepted? Perhaps the answer lies in mistaken beliefs about learning and cynical beliefs about children.

RESOURCES:

Sara Bennett and Nancy Kalish, The Case Against Homework: How Homework Is Hurting Our Children and What We Can Do About It (Crown, 2006)

John Buell, Closing the Book on Homework: Enhancing Public Education and Freeing Family Time (Temple University Press, 2004)

Alfie Kohn, The Homework Myth: Why Our Kids Get Too Much of a Bad Thing (Da Capo Press, 2006) (https://www.alfiekohn.org/homework-myth/).  Read chapter 2 (“Does Homework Improve Learning?”) here: https://www.alfiekohn.org/homework-improve-learning/

Alfie Kohn, “Homework: An Unnecessary Evil? Surprising Findings from New Research,” 2012 (https://www.alfiekohn.org/blogs/homework-unnecessary-evil-surprising-findings-new-research/)

Etta Kralovec and John Buell, The End of Homework: How Homework Disrupts Families, Overburdens Children, and Limits Learning (Beacon Press, 2000)

A note from Alfie Kohn:

My sincere thanks to the listeners who have taken a minute to click on the DONATE link (or to visit coff.ee/kohnszone) and helped to cover our production costs, thereby keeping the podcast ad- and paywall-free. If you are not yet one of those listeners, it’s not too late. It will also not be too late tomorrow, but doing so right now would be even better.

Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about the episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

Everyone agrees that it’s good to be curious, but that doesn’t mean schools are committed to fostering children’s curiosity. This extended episode of Kohn’s Zone features a provocative conversation with early-childhood expert Susan Engel of Williams College, who draws on a deep background of theory and research (some of it her own) to probe the nature of curiosity — that remarkable desire we have to resolve discrepancies between what we encounter and what we expected. Curiosity can feed on itself, generating new and subtler questions, yet classrooms often fail to support this process — and indeed may actively discourage it. The more densely packed the curriculum, and the more structured (and goal-oriented) the school day is, Engel argues, the less chance kids have to wonder and explore. She offers suggestions for how teachers can encourage students’ curiosity and help them figure out how best to act on it. We also discuss her newest book, which describes her visists to kindergartens across the country: What distinguishes classrooms for young children that are exceptional from those that make a thoughtful observer wince? (Hint: It’s not mostly a function of race, class, or how nice the teacher is.)

RESOURCES:

Susan Engel, The Hungry Mind (Harvard Univ. Press, 2018) [https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674984110]

Susan Engel, The Intellectual Lives of Children (Harvard Univ. Press, 2022) [https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674278646]

Susan Engel, The End of the Rainbow (New Press, 2015) [https://thenewpress.org/books/the-end-of-the-rainbow/]

Susan Engel, American Kindergarten (Univ. of Chicago Press, 2026) [https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/A/bo258923309.html]

Alfie Kohn, “Less and Less Curious,” Education Week, October 2, 2024 [https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/curiosity/]

A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

The most popular initiatives in education tend to be strategies for “fixing the kids.” A focus on the deficits of individual students, rather than a critical analysis of systemic issues, is the common denominator of academic remediation, behavior management programs, and efforts to equip children with more self-regulation, grit, or a “growth mindset.” Yet the entire field of social psychology warns us that we err in underestimating the impact of the environments in which people, including students, find themselves. Alas, this message has become muddled because some classic social psych research is widely misunderstood, including Milgram’s obedience experiments and Mischel’s marshmallow studies. So let’s explore what psychologists call the Fundamental Attribution Error — and consider how the individualistic underpinnings of our education system (and of our culture more generally) prevent us from taking that insight to heart.

RESOURCES:

Lee Ross, “The Intuitive Psychologist and His Shortcomings: Distortions in the Attribution Process,” Advances in Experimental Social Psychology 10 (1977): 173-220 [https://tinyurl.com/3d9xdjtd]

Nick Chater & George Loewenstein, It’s on You: How Corporations and Behavioral Scientists Have Convinced Us That We’re to Blame for Society’s Deepest Problems (Venture, 2026) — [https://tinyurl.com/uj4ymmey]

Muzafer Sherif et al., The Robbers Cave Experiment (Wesleyan Univ. Press, 1961/1988) [https://www.weslpress.org/9780819561947/the-robbers-cave-experiment/]

Stanley Milgram, Obedience to Authority (Harper, 1974/2009) [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/obedience-to-authority-stanley-milgram]

Philip Zimbardo’s prison experiment: See prisonexp.org.

Walter Mischel’s marshmallow experiments: Alfie Kohn, “S’More Misrepresentation of Research: What Waiting for a Second Marshmallow Doesn’t Prove,” Education Week, September 10, 2014 [https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/smore-misrepresentation-research/]; Walter Mischel, “From Good Intentions to Willpower,” in The Psychology of Action, ed. P. M. Gollwitzer and J. A. Bargh (Guilford, 1996); Mischel et al., “Cognitive and Attentional Mechanisms in Delay of Gratification,” Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 21 (1972): 204-18.

Alfie Kohn, “How Not to Teach Values: A Critical Look at Character Education,” Phi Delta Kappan, February 1997 [https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/teach-values/]

Ruth Butler, “What Young People Want to Know When: Effects of Mastery and Ability Goals on Interest in Different Kinds of Social Comparisons,” Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 62 (1992): 934-43.

Nona M. Flynn and Judith L. Rapoport, “Hyperactivity in Open and Traditional Classroom Environments,” Journal of Special Education 10 (1976): 285-90; Rolf G. Jacob et al., “Formal and Informal Classroom Settings: Effects on Hyperactivity,” Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology 6 (1978): 47-59.

A note from Alfie Kohn:

My sincere thanks to the listeners who have taken a minute to click on the DONATE link (or to visit coff.ee/kohnszone) and helped to cover our production costs, thereby keeping the podcast ad- and paywall-free. If you are not yet one of the listeners who has done this, it’s not too late. It will also not be too late tomorrow, but doing so right now would be even better.

Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about the episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

Intellectually vibrant classrooms are distinguished by teachers who do a lot more asking than telling. Their motto when confronting challenges or planning lessons is “Bring the kids in on it!” Regular class meetings offer a significant role for students to reflect on “how we want our class to be” (rather than focusing on specific rules). This second of a two-part episode digs deeply into strategies for supporting student autonomy and then explores some of the structural and psychological reasons why some teachers are reluctant to move in this direction. It’s tough to give up control, but that’s when the learning really starts.

RESOURCES:

Daphne Blunt Bugental et al., “Who’s the Boss?”, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 72 (1997): 1297-1309

Child Development Project, Ways We Want Our Class to Be: Class Meetings That Build Commitment to Kindness and Learning (Developmental Studies Center, 1996) [https://tinyurl.com/4zkptxec]

A note from Alfie Kohn:

My sincere thanks to the listeners who have taken a minute to click on the DONATE link (or to visit coff.ee/kohnszone) and helped to cover our production costs, thereby keeping the podcast ad- and paywall-free. If you are not yet one of the listeners who has done this, it’s not too late. It will also not be too late tomorrow, but doing so right now would be even better.

Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

An impressive body of research shows that people of all ages – including students in classrooms – are happier, healthier, and more productive when they have some say about what they’re doing. Indeed, the way children learn to make good decisions is by making decisions. Why, then, are so many classrooms more focused on eliciting their compliance than supporting their autonomy? In this, the first of a two-part episode, stories and studies illustrate the benefits of giving students a real voice about what and how they learn, how problems are solved, and even how the classroom is arranged and decorated. What’s more, many such decisions are best made collectively (and not just through voting) because autonomy + community = democracy.

A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I started this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you.
     Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

Surveys reveal that fewer children and adults are reading for pleasure. This might be due partly to social media, but certain classroom strategies and school policies likely play a role. In this episode we come at the issue backwards: What would teachers do if their goal was to extinguish kids’ enthusiasm about books? Well, they would adopt a “fonix fetish” when teaching young children. They would require older students to read for a certain length of time — and keep a log to prove they complied. They would assign books rather than letting kids choose, test them on the content, and offer rewards for reading. These and other traditional practices are extremely effective…at leading kids to regard reading as an activity to be endured rather than enjoyed.

RESOURCES:

Jessica K. Bone et al., “The Decline in Reading for Pleasure Over 20 Years…,” iScience, 2025: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12496190/

Teresa Cremin, “Reading for Pleasure,” Language and Education, 2024: https://tinyurl.com/376jcra8

Katherine Marsh, “Why Kids Aren’t Falling in Love with Reading,” The Atlantic, March 2023: https://tinyurl.com/mrxyfdpd

Alfie Kohn, “A Closer Look at Reading Incentive Programs,” excerpt from Punished by Rewards (1993/2018): https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/reading-incentives/

For a list of sources debunking claims of the “Science of Reading” campaign about phonics instruction, see note 11 of A. Kohn, “The Siren Song of ‘Evidence-Based Instruction,” 2024: https://tinyurl.com/24nyam6y.

Seth A. Parsons & Joy Dangora Erickson, “Where Is Motivation in the Science of Reading?“, Phi Delta Kappan, 2024: https://tinyurl.com/mus7vn5p

Michael Becker et al., “Intrinsic and Extrinsic Reading Motivation as Predictors of Reading Literacy,” J of Educational Psych, 2010: https://tinyurl.com/3z34ctdd

Linda M. Pavonetti et al., “Accelerated Reader: What Are the Lasting Effects…?”, J of Adolescent & Adult Literacy, 2002/2003: https://tinyurl.com/yj8dfnwb

Barbara A. Marinak & Linda B. Gambrell, “Intrinsic Motivation and Rewards,” Literacy Research & Instruction, 2008: https://tinyurl.com/2yc3zrjp

A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

Computers in classrooms may have the potential to radically enrich and democratize student learning, but the reality of ed tech typically looks very different. This extended episode of Kohn’s Zone features a stimulating conversation with Gary Stager, one of our foremost experts on this topic. He takes us beyond banal generalities (“technology has pluses and minuses”) in order to tease out which types, uses, and purposes are constructive and which are a waste of time – or worse. In what he calls our current “age of rising pedagogical authoritarianism,” tech often is put in the service of “managing children, ‘delivering’ instruction, narrowing the curriculum, and turn[ing] kids into question-answering ATMs.” Whereas, Stager insists, computers can and should help students to mess around with possibilities, create thrilling projects, and make sense of the world.

RESOURCES

Sylvia Libow Martinez and Gary Stager, Invent to Learn: Making, Tinkering, and Engineering in the Classroom (2nd ed.), 2019: https://tinyurl.com/33k48zd8

Gary Stager, Twenty Things to Do with a Computer – Forward 50, 2021: https://tinyurl.com/mpdky2cw

https://constructingmodernknowledge.com/

Alfie Kohn, “The Sneaky Conservatism of Ed Tech,” Education Week, September 27, 2023: https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/tech-conservatism/

A note from Alfie Kohn:

My sincere thanks to the listeners who have taken a minute to click on the DONATE link and helped to cover our production costs, thereby keeping the podcast ad- and paywall-free. If you are not yet one of the listeners who has done this, it’s not too late. It will also not be too late tomorrow, but doing so right now would be even better.

Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it! 

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

Early-childhood educators remind us how vital it is for kids to have plentiful opportunities to engage in free play – which, sadly, is often denied to them as academic pressures are imposed too early and too intensely. But let’s consider some perspectives on play that are less obvious: how the word is sometimes applied to activities that really aren’t play at all; how important play is for older students and adults, too; how play isn’t the only alternative to “work” in a school setting; and why we shouldn’t try to justify play on the basis of the skills or dispositions it supposedly helps children to acquire. True play has no goal other than itself, and the chance to enjoy it shouldn’t be conditioned on whether it proves to be useful.

RESOURCES:

https://allianceforchildhood.org/

https://www.naeyc.org/

NIFplay.org

Deborah Meier et al., Playing for Keeps (Teachers College Press, 2010): https://tinyurl.com/2hbamnpt

Vivian Gussin Paley, A Child’s Work (Univ. of Chicago Press, 2005): https://tinyurl.com/34yzzscw

David Elkind, The Power of Play (Hachette, 2007): https://tinyurl.com/y94mhxfz

A. Kohn, “Students Don’t ‘Work’ — They Learn,” Education Week, September 3, 1997: https://tinyurl.com/yzzwbkxx

A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

We’re often warned about an “epidemic” of academic cheating and urged to do more to deter and punish the devious culprits. But we’ve had a century of research showing that the frequency of cheating is predicted not by the compromised morality of individual students but by the policies, priorities, and practices of schools. Specifically, cheating is far more common in competitive, achievement-oriented environments and much rarer when students experience the learning as meaningful and engaging and believe that their teachers care about them. In this episode we consider how systemic features not only increase the likelihood of cheating but are responsible for determining which actions (such as collaborating or consulting reference sources) constitute cheating in the first place.

RESOURCES:
Eric M. Anderman and Tamera B. Murdock, Psychology of Academic Cheating (Elsevier, 2007)

Character Education Inquiry, Studies in the Nature of Character. Volume 1: Studies in Deceit (New York: Macmillan, 1928) — https://tinyurl.com/72jrrnrz

Y. Kanat-Maymon et al., “The Role of Basic Need-Fulfillment in Academic Dishonesty,” Contemporary Educational Psychology 43 (2015) — https://tinyurl.com/yjvxswsy

A note from Alfie Kohn:

If you’ve been enjoying, or at least listening to, the podcast but have put off supporting it with a modest quantity of cash, I am pleased to inform you that it is not too late to do so. It will also not be too late to do so tomorrow, but doing so today would be even better. Microphones, as my late father might have said, do not grow on trees.

Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode you’ve listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

Enforced harmony is counterproductive. Pushing students (or employees) to come to agreement prematurely tends to undermine learning (or produce bad decisions). Sometimes that’s motivated by a desire to avoid conflict. But conflict handled carefully is not only tolerable; it’s valuable. What’s problematic is debate – disagreement where the point is not to learn or seek the truth but to win. The ideal arrangement in a classroom (or workplace) is cooperative conflict, where spirited disagreement is non-adversarial and nested in a caring environment.

RESOURCES:

David W. Johnson & Roger T. Johnson, “Energizing Learning: The Instructional Power of Conflict,” Educational Researcher (2009) — https://tinyurl.com/yc7t265j

Karl Smith et al., “Can Conflict Be Constructive?” Journal of Educational Psychology (1981) — https://tinyurl.com/474ja9bu

Alfie Kohn, No Contest: The Case Against Competition, rev. ed. (Houghton Mifflin, 1992) — https://www.alfiekohn.org/contest/

A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

In traditional classrooms, students may contribute to a discussion only by raising their hands and waiting for the teacher to call on them. In even more controlling environments, students must contribute when the teacher calls on them, even if they’d rather not. The latter practice, “cold calling,” puts kids on the spot and forces them to perform on command. But the former practice, too, could be described as teacher-centered. Is there a way to change this dynamic in such a way that everyone won’t talk at once while also making sure that a few outspoken students won’t dominate the discussion? What would it mean for teachers to create a more democratic learning community by relinquishing the power to unilaterally decide who speaks when?

RESOURCES:

“Raising Hands” video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqzSlO9dp0c#t=00m25s

Kassia Omohundro Wedekind & Christy Hermann Thompson, Hands Down, Speak Out (Routledge, 2020) — https://tinyurl.com/26ccz97f

A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

Public schools, says Jennifer Berkshire, are the places “where we start to solve problems together” and from which no child can be excluded even if she has special needs or two moms. Public education is really the foundation of a pluralistic secular democracy, which is precisely why it has long been the target of the religious right. This extended episode of Kohn’s Zone features a conversation with Berkshire, who expertly guides us through efforts not only to impose religion, book bans, and a right-wing curriculum on public schools but to undermine the institution itself. Voucher plans are unpopular even in red states, but that reflects anti-government fervor more than support for public education, she explains. Liberals may be frustrated when schools fail to create a more egalitarian society, whereas conservatives fear that schools may succeed at this. Can a shared suspicion of wealthy interests — or opposition to standardized testing — fend off “school choice” plans? And where do charter schools fit in? Don’t miss this illuminating conversation.

RESOURCES:

Jennifer C. Berkshire and Jack Schneider, The Education Wars (New Press, 2024) — https://is.gd/9sZcHF

Jack Schneider and Jennifer C. Berkshire, A Wolf at the Schoolhouse Door (New Press, 2023) — https://is.gd/RCGOEa

https://www.haveyouheardpodcast.com/

A note from Alfie Kohn:

My sincere thanks to the listeners who have taken a minute to click on the DONATE link (or to visit coff.ee/kohnszone) and helped to cover our production costs, thereby keeping the podcast ad- and paywall-free. If you are not yet one of the listeners who has done this, it’s not too late. It will also not be too late tomorrow, but doing so right now would be even better.

Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it.

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

When you look at student transcripts (rather than at self-reports), it’s less clear that average grades are rising over time. And even if some grades are higher, that doesn’t mean they’re “inflated” (i.e., undeserved). But many conservative critics don’t seem troubled by their inability to prove those claims; they’re indignant whenever a lot of kids get high grades, as if that outcome were inherently objectionable. Four troubling assumptions inform their outrage: that higher grades imply lower standards; that a teacher’s job is to sort students (rather than to help everyone succeed); that stringent grading motivates students (which conflates extrinsic with intrinsic motivation and is unsupported by data); and that students should be pitted against each other in a race for artificially scarce high grades (so that no matter how well everyone does, there must always be losers). If there is a crisis in education, it’s not how many students get A’s — it’s how many think the point of school is to get A’s (rather than to learn).

RESOURCES:

Lester H. Hunt, ed., Grade Inflation: Academic Standards in Higher Education (SUNY Press, 2008) — https://tinyurl.com/3phxfp5j

Alfie Kohn, “Can Everyone Be Excellent?”, New York Times, June 16, 2019 — https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/excellence/

A note from Alfie Kohn:

If you’re enjoying Kohn’s Zone, please tell other people about it.

If you have feedback about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.

And if you’re willing to do your part to keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, please click on the donate button or visit https://coff.ee/kohnszone. Thanks!

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn

In the absence of an affirmative definition of mental health, psychology doesn’t become value-free; its values – and the goals of therapy – are just driven underground. Similarly, if we don’t reflect on the purpose of education, schooling by default is oriented just to collecting a credential. The point of this episode is not to recommend one specific educational goal but to sharpen the questions we ask about that topic (and emphasize the importance of asking them). For example: Should the goal(s) of education be the same for all students? Do we favor intellectual, as opposed to purely vocational, outcomes – and, if so, are they more about transmitting knowledge or developing the capacity for critical thinking? Is the point to benefit individual students or our society — and, if the latter, does that mean boosting the economy or sustaining democracy? And what role should students themselves play in determining the reasons for learning?

RESOURCE:

Labaree, How to Succeed in School Without Really Learning (Yale Univ. Press, 1999) — https://tinyurl.com/2cz5mmyp

If you’re enjoying Kohn’s Zone, please tell other people about it. If you have feedback about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/. And if you’re willing to do your part to keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, kindly click on the donate button. Thanks!

Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).

PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn