Explorez tous les épisodes du podcast If You've Come This Far

During COVID, six childhood friends from West Roxbury tried to reconnect on Zoom. It was a disaster, so they went for a walk instead. Seven years later, they’re still walking five miles every Sunday, and one of them made a documentary about it.

Shaun and Chris talk with four members of the Old Man Walking Club: filmmaker and author Michael Connelly, Rad, Peter and Tim. It’s the most guests we’ve ever had on one episode, and the nonstop ribbing proves it. Under the jokes is a serious conversation about what happens when men let friendships fade, and what it takes to bring them back.

In this episode:

• How a failed Zoom call turned into a weekly walk that has lasted seven years
• Why a walk builds more connection than a round of golf
• The “roast” culture: nothing is off limits, and they still make room for the hard stuff
• Peter’s Sunday “control-alt-delete” and what it does for the rest of his week
• Climbing Croagh Patrick in Ireland, and moving from childhood buddies to something closer to brothers
• Getting Robert Waldinger (Harvard Study of Adult Development) and Dan Pink into the film, plus the wives’ side of the story
• Writing your own obituary, learning to say yes, and Tim finishing all 48 of New Hampshire’s 4,000-footers
• Our three closing questions, answered by four guests

Shoutout: Former guest Sam Pressler of Connective Tissue co-authored Nobody to Call, a report on men without college degrees. Almost half of the men interviewed reported having no close friends.

Join us: We’re hosting a screening of Old Man Walking Club on November 16 at the AMC Rosemont in Rosemont, IL, with a Q&A with the guys afterward. [event link]

Sponsor: Mental – getmental.com

Learn more about MenLiving at menliving.org.

Dr. Victor Matheson, a professor of economics at the College of the Holy Cross, joins Shaun and Chris for a pragmatic look at the intersection of sports, money, and societal impact. From the reality of billionaire owners demanding taxpayer-funded stadiums to the exploitation of student-athletes by the NCAA, Victor cuts through the noise with empirical data and heterodox perspectives. The conversation also explores the explosive growth of legalized sports gambling—now a $180 billion industry—and the hidden societal costs of addiction and unregulated prediction markets.

Highlights

• The economics of stadium subsidies and why owners push for new taxpayer-funded facilities every 30 years when their leases expire.
• Why the traditional amateurism model in college sports functioned as an exploitative cartel that extracted wealth from young athletes.
• The structural differences between American closed-league sports and European soccer, and why it is harder to run a profitable team abroad.
• The staggering rise of legal sports betting from $5 billion to $180 billion, and its correlation with financial distress.
• The dangerous rise of prediction markets like Polymarket and Kalshi, which mimic sports betting without the same consumer protections or state oversight.

John Wasik is a journalist, public servant, and author of 19 books, whose work spans economics, environmentalism, and community action. Raised in the South suburbs of Chicago with deep roots in the steel mills, Wasik brings a pragmatic and empirical approach to tackling existential threats like climate change and local governance.

In this 100th milestone episode, John discusses his journey from a young reporter to a Lake County Commissioner, emphasizing the importance of local infrastructure, integral ecology, and staying engaged with the world through writing and music. He shares how heterodox thinking and community organizing can challenge broken systems and lead to meaningful environmental stewardship.

Highlights

• The South Side Roots (approx. 05:00): John shares his family's history in the steel mills and how growing up in the South suburbs of Chicago shaped his worldview and work ethic.
• Cognitive Dissonance and Climate Change (approx. 20:00): An exploration of the existential threat of global warming and why society struggles to reconcile psychological anchors with necessary environmental action.
• Local Action and Property Taxes (approx. 35:00): How grassroots community organizing and challenging local property tax structures led to meaningful political engagement and environmental conservation in Lake County.
• Integral Ecology (approx. 45:00): John discusses Pope Francis's concept of integral ecology, emphasizing that humanity is not separate from nature, but an active part of the biosphere.
• The Power of Curiosity (approx. 55:00): Advice on maintaining a lifelong practice of asking questions, journaling, and embracing creative outlets like bluegrass music.

Resources

• John's Substack page Refinement
• Mental app (for men's mental health and habits)

Rob Bronstein, Founder and President of The Scion Group, joins Shaun Emerson and Chris Lozier for Episode 99 of If You've Come This Far. Beginning his real estate career on 100% commission in Chicago, Rob launched Scion in his mid-20s and scaled it into the nation’s largest private owner and operator of off-campus student housing, managing nearly 120,000 beds across 190 properties. Grounded in empiricism, focus, and tenacity, Rob shares his pragmatic journey of expanding a multi-billion-dollar enterprise while demonstrating how commercial scale serves as an exponential multiplier for social impact.

Beyond property operations, Rob highlights Scion’s proactive approach to resident wellbeing, including appointing leadership team members dedicated to student mental health at a systemic level. He also details his philanthropic leadership with the University of Michigan’s pre-seed innovation fund, the youth anti-cyberbullying foundation Buckets Over Bullying, and Tech-Safe Learning (TLC), proving that lasting personal fulfillment stems from building institutions that outlive you.

Highlights:

• Catalyzing University Innovation: How pre-seed philanthropic venture funds bridge the gap between academic research and commercial enterprise at the University of Michigan.
• The Power of Commission Sales & Autonomy: Why starting on 100% commission builds the grit and risk tolerance required to launch a company at age 25.
• Cross-Industry Scaling: Elevating student housing operations by recruiting senior leadership from Disney, Caesars, and Wall Street.
• Systematizing Security & Student Wellness: Why managing 120,000 beds requires dedicated executive leadership in community safety and mental health support.
• Multiplier-Effect Philanthropy: Leveraging partnerships with the NBA, AAU, and digital influencers to combat youth cyberbullying through Buckets Over Bullying.

Resources:

• The Scion Group
• Buckets Over Bullying
• University of Michigan Innovation Partnerships
• Lead Dad by Paul Sullivan

Susan Herman, LCSW, is a veteran clinical social worker with over three decades of experience spanning child welfare, residential treatment, military social work, and international healing initiatives in Vietnam. In this episode of If You’ve Come This Far, Susan joins Chris and Shaun to discuss her book, Breaking Up with the Patriarchy, and why true personal fulfillment requires deconstructing our relationship with dominant cultural norms.

Rather than framing patriarchy solely as male dominance, Susan defines it as a 10,000-year-old "dominator worldview"—a framework built on fear, hyper-individualism, competition, and consumption. Drawing on Indigenous wisdom, clinical practice, and her own transformative life experiences, Susan offers a practical, pragmatic roadmap toward a kinship-centered worldview grounded in radical presence, bodily intuition, reciprocity, and long-term stewardship for future generations.

Key Takeaways:

• The Abusive Relationship with Our Worldview: Why the 10,000-year-old dominator paradigm traps us in a cycle of compliance, consumption, and empty achievement.
• Early Roots of Empathy: How childhood encounters with Holocaust survivors and early callings shaped Susan’s lifelong dedication to healing.
• Sovereignty Over Authority: Moving away from outsourcing authority to institutions, and stepping into personal sovereignty paired with relational accountability.
• Reimagining Needs: Comparing Maslow’s hierarchy with the Blackfoot Nation’s framework of self-actualization, community actualization, and 7th-generation perpetuity.
• Fear vs. Intuition: Why most fears are socially programmed to maintain the status quo, and how body-centered practices (Tai Chi, Qigong, Yoga) release stored trauma.
• Duty to Purpose: Shifting daily existence from "have to" (duty/obligation) to "get to" (purpose/meaning).
• Musical Closing: Susan shares a live, heartfelt rendition of the Prayer of St. Francis.

Resources Mentioned:

• Susan's book: Breaking Up with the Patriarchy
• The Hope Effect by Dr. Stephen Trzeciak
• Making Peace with Vietnam (Documentary film by Stephen Emanuel)
• Research by Four Arrows (Don Trent Jacobs) & Darcia Narvaez on Indigenous Worldviews
• Mental App (getmental.com)

After eighteen years away from the Pacific Northwest, former AWS tech marketer Alexandra "Alex" Friedman returned home to find that professional achievement was no safeguard against profound urban isolation. Confronting the notorious "Seattle Freeze" and the reality of adult loneliness, she began inviting strangers to rooftop dinner parties. That grassroots experiment quickly evolved into Connection Feast, an international community platform and friendship coaching methodology that has brought thousands together for semi-structured, authentic connection.

In this episode of If You’ve Come This Far, Alex joins Chris and Shaun to dissect the mechanics of modern belonging. Moving beyond superficial networking and high-pressure dating paradigms, Alex shares why authentic community requires intentional friction, how somatic awareness disarms our biological fear of rejection, and why building platonic intimacy—especially among men—is essential for mental health and personal fulfillment.

Key Highlights

• "Connectivities" vs. Dating Pressure: Why structured, action-oriented activities create psychological safety and draw men into deeper conversations far more effectively than traditional mixers.
• Boundaries Create Freedom: How establishing curated dinner themes and structured conversational rules helps introverts bypass small talk and open up quickly.
• Customer Obsession to People Obsession: The catalyst behind leaving big tech to build a business around social health and relational infrastructure.
• The Evolutionary Logic of Rejection: Why social exclusion feels like physical danger to the nervous system, and practical somatic tools to regulate through anxiety.
• The Danger of Frictionless Connection: Why AI chatbots and one-sided digital interactions cannot substitute for the messy, indispensable growth of real-world relationships.
• The Solo Strategy: Why showing up alone to recurring, shared-goal groups over 3–6 months is the most empirical path to making lasting adult friends.

Resources Mentioned

• Substack: Come A Little Further
• Connection Feast: ConnectionFeast.com
• U.S. Chamber of Connection: ChamberofConnection.org
• MenLiving: MenLiving.org
• The Path / Mental: GetMental.com
• Literature & Media: Bowling Alone (Robert Putnam / Pete Davis documentary)

Mark Ishaug has spent his career at the forefront of mission-driven advocacy and community healthcare. Before serving as the CEO of Thresholds--one of Illinois's largest and oldest providers of mental health and substance use recovery services--Mark spent two decades leading public policy and executive efforts at the AIDS Foundation of Chicago and AIDS United. Inspired early in life by his mother’s civil rights activism and cemented by personal tragedy--losing his 29-year-old brother, Eric, to undiagnosed mental illness and substance use--Mark has dedicated his life to creating tangible social impact for society's most vulnerable.

In this episode of If You've Come This Far, Mark joins Chris and Shaun to unpack how love and power must intersect to build sustainable, high-impact organizations. He shares how Thresholds provides "Home, Health, and Hope" to over 13,000 individuals annually through supportive housing, mobile crisis response, and comprehensive behavioral health clinics. Grounded in pragmatism and deep empathy, Mark discusses the critical need to protect healthcare access, eradicate systemic stigma, and foster genuine human connection in an increasingly disconnected world.

Highlights

• Defining Love as an Action and Business Foundation: How leading with love translates directly into organizational operations, listening to those on the margins, and driving systemic change.
• Personal Tragedy & The Mission Behind Thresholds: Mark opens up about losing his younger brother Eric at age 29, and how that personal loss fuels his commitment to mental healthcare reform.
• "Home, Health, and Hope": The Scope of Thresholds: A look into how Thresholds operates 1,600+ housing units and Certified Community Behavioral Health Clinics (CCBHCs) to keep individuals supported in their communities.
• Navigating Policy Challenges & Systemic Threats: Examining the impact of Medicaid redeterminations and threats to the "Housing First" model on safety-net providers.
• "We Show Up": Love in Action: How frontline caseworkers operationalized compassionate care through severe heatwaves, COVID-19, and daily community outreach.

Resources Mentioned

• Thresholds
• AIDS Foundation of Chicago
• Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam
• Festival! (Podcast) & Join or Die (Documentary) by Pete Davis
• Sponsor: Mental App

Matthew Quick returns to If You've Come This Far for his second appearance on the show to discuss his new memoir, Dad, Love, Me. In a raw conversation, Matthew opens up about his father’s battle with dementia, his own journey through sobriety, and the grueling but beautiful process of Jungian analysis. Offering an unfiltered look at generational trauma, he discusses the courageous choice to love a parent exactly as they are, without demanding they earn it. Pragmatic and deeply moving, this episode explores the profound impact of showing up, making peace with the past, and creating new narratives for the future.

Highlights:

• Defining love as a choice to embrace someone in the present moment without needing them to earn it, particularly in the face of dementia.
• Breaking the cycle of father-son violence by making a conscious decision not to pass on inherited trauma to the next generation.
• The healing power of Jungian analysis and the importance of experiencing positive, altruistic male friendships.
• The difficult reality of writing a vulnerable memoir without family support and dealing with the tradition of secrecy in traumatized families.
• The feminization of reading and the critical need for older men to mentor younger men and guide them back to literature.

Resources:

• Dad, Love, Me by Matthew Quick
• Mental app (getmental.com)
• Joe Conrad's new book Man Therapy: Therapy the Way a Man Does It

In this episode of If You've Come This Far, Chris and Shaun sit down with Ron Dresher and Brian Harris, founders of the Los Angeles-based Life Transition Group. Approaching their 80s with the metabolic age and energy of men decades younger, Ron and Brian share how they built a thriving community designed to help men navigate the often-daunting shift out of full-time careers. They discuss the critical need for connection, empirical learning, and purpose in later life, emphasizing that retirement isn't just about financial readiness—it's about holistic well-being.

Grounded in pragmatism and lived experience, the conversation explores the "CHAIRS" framework—Charity, Health, Achievement, Independence, Relationships, and Spirituality—as a practical guide for balancing our priorities through all of life's chapters. From the importance of giving back to the community to fostering deep, vulnerable friendships, Ron and Brian offer a pragmatic blueprint for aging gracefully, intentionally, and joyfully.

Highlights:

• [04:12] The origins of the Life Transition Group and the realization that many men lack a roadmap for retirement beyond finances.
• [07:15] Breaking down the "CHAIRS" framework.
• [11:05] Why soft skills, such as nurturing relationships and maintaining spirituality, become crucial growth areas for aging men.
• [33:14] The concept of chronological age vs. metabolic age, and the critical difference between lifespan, healthspan, and "joyspan."
• [48:10] Ron's personal "GRAMPS" blueprint for life balance and his advice to his 10-year-old self about the paramount importance of relationships.

Resources:

• Helen Dennis: Syndicated columnist and expert on aging and the new retirement.
• Dr. Michael Greger: Physician and author of How Not to Age and How Not to Die.
• PreNuvo: Preventative health and full-body MRI screening.
• GetMental: App designed to help men strengthen their mindset and achieve discipline.

In this "From the Vault" episode, Chris and Shaun are joined by MenLiving co-founder Todd Adams to reflect on the teachings of the late Father Michael Himes, a beloved Notre Dame and Boston College professor whom Chris considers the wisest person he’s ever known. Anchored by audio clips from Father Himes's beautiful "Last Lecture," the trio explores what it means to live a deeply meaningful life and the urgency of sharing our most authentic truths before our time runs out. They discuss integrity, giving one's self, uttering the definitive message, and more.

Before diving into the vault, Chris also takes a moment to highlight real leadership by shouting out Chris "Chowdah" Hill on his promotion to Rear Admiral. Chowdah's focus on mental health, positive relationships, and mission aboard the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower serves as a modern, pragmatic example of the very principles Father Himes spent his life teaching.

Resources Mentioned:

• Father Michael Himes's "Last Lecture" at Boston College
• The Way of the Warrior Sailor by Rear Admiral Chris "Chowdah" Hill
• MenLiving (Co-founded by Todd Adams)

This episode is brought to you by Judson & Moore, Family Legacy American Whiskey. Born from Boundless Curiosity. Learn more about Judson & Moore here

In this episode of If You've Come This Far, Chris and Shaun sit down with Ed Frauenheim, an author, journalist, and advocate doing critical work around masculinity and men's health. Ed's career spans from technology journalism to studying organizational culture at Great Place to Work, but his current mission is deeply personal: helping men move past the isolated, stoic "cowboy" mentality to embrace emotional intelligence and community.

Ed candidly shares his own wake-up calls, including a stress-induced heart attack in 2021 and a recent, grueling battle with appendix cancer that required a 10-hour surgery. Through these physical trials, and by reflecting on his upbringing with a father who struggled with an explosive temper, Ed illustrates why redefining toughness is literally a matter of life and death. It's a raw, pragmatic conversation about giving men the tools to ask for help, show vulnerability, and build authentic connections.

Highlights:

• [04:15] The Birth of "F the Tough Guy": Ed shares the story of a ski lift operators' conference where a tragic string of suicides prompted a room full of stoic men to finally open up about mental health.
• [14:30] Making Peace with the Past: Ed discusses growing up in Buffalo with a father who had an explosive temper, and the healing power of acknowledging that pain while choosing forgiveness.
• [25:10] The Corporate Grind: A look back at Ed's career in tech journalism, the pressure to climb the corporate ladder, and realizing that the traditional metrics of success were leaving him unfulfilled.
• [41:00] Wake-Up Calls: Ed recounts his 2021 stress-induced heart attack and how ignoring his physical and mental limits caught up with him.
• [48:45] Surviving Cancer: Ed details his recent battle with appendix cancer, the 10-hour surgery he endured, and how leaning on his community for support ultimately saved him.

Resources:

• Reinventing Masculinity by Ed Adams and Ed Frauenheim
• FrauenTimes (Ed's Substack)

Shaun and Chris connect with Celine Coggins, a lifelong educator, founder of Teach Plus, and the inaugural CEO of The Goodness Web. Celine shares her journey from growing up in a large Irish Catholic family in Massachusetts to navigating the rigorous worlds of Stanford and Harvard. The conversation explores her career transitions and her current mission with The Goodness Web: transforming youth mental health through collaborative, scalable venture philanthropy that moves past isolated efforts to fund systemic, nationwide solutions.

We dive deep into:

• The Venture Philanthropy Model: Moving away from isolated, small-dollar grants toward pooled, million-dollar investments that can actually scale across schools and pediatric practices.
• The Gen X "Unlock": Why data shows that youth mental health is one of the most defining and deeply emotional issues of our generation's parents.
• The Teacher Retention Crisis: What public education can learn from the business world about rewarding talent and performance early in a career.
• The Reality of the "Anxious Generation": Navigating a landscape dominated by social media, hyper-connectivity, and the new frontiers of AI.

Resources Mentioned:

• The Goodness Web (thegoodnessweb.org)
• Teach Plus (teachplus.org)
• Inseparable (inseparable.org)
• The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt
• NAMI Chicago (namichicago.org)

Chris and Shaun sit down with Matt Davison, the CEO of NAMI Chicago, to explore the intersection of law, advocacy, and radical empathy. Matt shares his transition from serving as a public defender and civil litigator to leading one of the nation's most prominent mental health advocacy organizations. He discusses the limitations of our current "triage" approach to mental health and why we must move "upstream" to address systemic issues before they become crises.

Matt also opens up about his personal philosophy on "self-love" vs. "self-care," his concerns regarding the toxic impact of social media algorithms on youth, and the visceral moment on a Chicago Blue Line train that changed his perspective on systemic reform forever. This conversation is a pragmatic yet hopeful look at how we can build a more dignified system of care for all Chicagoans.

Key Takeaways:

• The "Hammer and Nail" Fallacy: Why the criminal justice system is fundamentally ill-equipped to handle healthcare crises.
• The Blue Line Inflection Point: A powerful story about why individual advocacy isn't enough to fix a broken system.
• Upstream Intervention: The necessity of investing in community resources to prevent the "triage mode" of emergency rooms and jails.
• Social Media as a Public Health Crisis: Comparing modern algorithms to the "Big Tobacco" moment and their impact on youth body image.
• Self-Love vs. Self-Care: A therapist’s distinction between occasional treats and the daily practice of checking in with yourself.

Resources Mentioned:

• NAMI Chicago: namichicago.org
• 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline: Dial 988 for immediate support

Thanks to our sponsor, Mental. Mental is a wellness app built specifically for men, offering a sanctuary from "toxic positivity" and generic advice. It provides personalized, affordable, and science-backed support through real-life coaching designed to help you navigate life's messiest challenges. If you've been thinking about doing something for your mental health, visit https://app.getmental.com/subscribe to get started.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify—it helps more people find these important conversations!

In this episode, Chris and Shaun sit down with Andy Rotherham, co-founder of Bellwether Education Partners and a veteran of the Clinton White House. Andy has spent over 30 years at the intersection of education policy and social impact, but he’s also a music enthusiast, a Red Sox fan, a Boston bar investor, a podcaster himself, and a man willing to run a 5k in a full Easter Bunny costume to surprise his daughter.

We dive into the "no-fluff" reality of the American education system, discussing why school "averages" are often not helpful and how we can actually move the needle on equity. We also explore the "modern vice" landscape—from the gamification of sports betting to the pervasive influence of social media on youth.

In this episode, we discuss:

• The McCaskill Update: A shout-out to previous guest John McCaskill on his new book, Dialing Your Leadership .
• The History of a "Planned Community": Growing up in Reston, Virginia, and how its "hippie experiment" origins shaped Andy’s worldview .
• The Trillion-Dollar Industry: Why education spending is both too much and not enough, and the desperate need for honest performance audits .
• The "Omni Cause": The quantitative shift in how gambling, weed, and social media are impacting the next generation .
• A Personal "Why": Andy’s commitment to the Pan-Mass Challenge and raising funds for Dana-Farber Cancer Institute in memory of his fathers .
• Speed Round: Andy’s life mantra, "What’s the worst that can happen?"

Resources Mentioned:

• Bellwether Education Partners
• Eduwonk (Substack)
• Pan-Mass Challenge / Dana-Farber
• D.I.A.L. IN YOUR LEADERSHIP by John McCaskill

Thanks to our sponsor, Mental. Mental is a wellness app built specifically for men, offering a sanctuary from "toxic positivity" and generic advice. It provides personalized, affordable, and science-backed support through real-life coaching designed to help you navigate life's messiest challenges. If you've been thinking about doing something for your mental health, visit https://app.getmental.com/subscribe to get started.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify—it helps more people find these important conversations!

Chris and Shaun sit down with Katie Fogarty, a communications expert, "proud crusader" for women in midlife, and the host of the popular podcast A Certain Age. Katie discusses her journey from a religion major at Holy Cross and a teaching stint in a Japanese fishing village to becoming a leading voice in the "menopause zeitgeist." We explore the systemic gaps in women’s healthcare, the "beauty industrial complex," and why Katie believes that aging isn't about becoming invisible—it’s about becoming visible to the right people.

Key Takeaways:

• The Menopause Zeitgeist: Why the conversation around menopause is finally hitting the mainstream and why "bikini medicine" (focusing only on the pelvis) is failing women’s brain, heart, and bone health.
• Aging Out Loud: Katie’s philosophy on resisting the "anti-aging" narrative and why she refuses to allow advertisers on her show who suggest that aging is a condition to be "fixed."
• Curiosity as a Superpower: How partners and husbands can support the women in their lives by educating themselves on perimenopause rather than waiting for their partner to explain it.
• The "Invisibility" Myth: A reframe on midlife—arguing that 50+ is not a time of fading away, but a time of intentional reinvention and newfound relevancy.

Episode Highlights:

• [00:00] Intro: Shout out to our friend and previous guest Jason Ronai on his new role at the Basketball Museum of Illinois (plus a goat debate).
• [02:15] The Small World: We uncover multiple points of connection and discuss Katie's career journey.
• [14:30] Culturally Catholic: Katie discusses her upbringing, the "Spotlight" scandal, and how she and her husband navigated faith while raising three young adults.
• [23:00] The Birth of A Certain Age: The "aha moment" when a New York Times bestselling author and a Michelin-starred chef both admitted they were afraid to go public with being over 50.
• [28:15] The Medical Gap: The staggering statistics behind NIH funding for women's health and the importance of HRT as a foundation for mental health.
• [35:10] Advice for Men: How husbands can "pull their heads out of their butts" and become active participants in the conversation around hormonal health.
• [43:00] Voting with Your Wallet: Why Katie chooses to use reading glasses and color her hair while still rejecting the "anti-aging" industrial complex.
• [53:40] Parenting Truths: Advice for parents of 17-year-olds on finding what "lights you up" rather than just padding a resume.
• [58:20] The Speed Round: Sunblock regrets, the "this too shall pass" mantra, and what Katie hopes people say at her wake.

Connect with Katie Fogarty:

• Podcast: A Certain Age
• Instagram: @acertainagepod
• Company: The Reboot Group

Chris and Shaun sit down with Zach Gale, an elementary special education teacher and the founder of Me to We. Zach discusses his journey from a hyper-competitive sports family to finding his purpose in supporting students with behavioral needs. We explore the transition from "Me" to "We," the importance of routine for mental health, and why Zach believes your story can one day become someone else’s survival guide.

Key Takeaways:

• Behavior as Communication: A core pillar of Zach’s teaching philosophy—understanding that every action from a child (or adult) is an attempt to communicate an underlying need.
• The "Me to We" Shift: Inspired by Inky Johnson, Zach explains how attaching yourself to a purpose and mission makes you "dangerous" in the best way possible.
• The Savage Servant: Trading the idea of being a "nice guy" for being a "good man"—someone who stands their ground and holds core values while remaining a "warrior in a garden."
• The Power of Routine: Why waking up at 4:00 AM and investing in self-discipline is Zach's greatest form of self-love and mental health maintenance.

Episode Highlights:

• [00:00] Intro: Celebrating Angela Saini and the Daniel Radcliffe connection.
• [05:30] The Gale Household: Growing up with a father who coached for 23 years and the "Golden Year" retirement video.
• [13:45] The Pivot to Special Ed: How "Bartlett Baseball Buddies" changed Zach's career path just days before college.
• [19:20] Men in Education: The disparity of male teachers at the elementary level and the importance of male role models in schools.
• [25:10] Perspective in the Classroom: Having tough conversations with veteran teachers and putting personal biases aside for the students.
• [33:00] The Origins of Me to We: Starting with Zoom workouts during COVID and evolving into a formalized LLC and men's group.
• [40:15] Family & Addiction: Zach’s middle brother’s journey to sobriety and his role in the men's group today.
• [48:40] Imposter Syndrome & Social Media: The struggle for authenticity in a society that casts judgment.
• [55:20] Curiosity Over Judgment: How Ted Lasso and "perspective taking" drive connection in Zach’s workshops.
• [01:02:00] The Best Sports Movie Debate: Miracle vs. Facing the Giants (and the notable absence of Hoosiers).

Connect with Zach Gale:

• Organization: Me to We
• LinkedIn: Zach Gale

Thanks to our sponsor, Mental. Mental is a wellness app built specifically for men, offering a sanctuary from "toxic positivity" and generic advice. It provides personalized, affordable, and science-backed support through real-life coaching designed to help you navigate life's messiest challenges. If you've been thinking about doing something for your mental health, visit https://app.getmental.com/subscribe to get started.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify—it helps more people find these important conversations!

In this episode, we sit down with author, activist, and education policy expert Justin Cohen to explore the evolving role of fatherhood in the 21st century. Justin shares his personal journey from growing up in a household steeped in education advocacy to launching Dads for All, a movement designed to engage fathers in both community building and "bite-sized" civic action. We dive into the "low bar" of current fatherhood expectations, the lack of dedicated "dad spaces" in the advocacy world, and how to build a movement that prioritizes authentic connection over corporate metrics. Finally, Justin reflects on the importance of "staying in the pocket" when tackling long-term social struggles.

Key Topics:

• The "Expert" Paradox: Why Shaun and Chris believe the most important conversations happen when "non-experts" stay curious and dive into deep issues.
• Education in the Water: Justin reflects on growing up with a special ed teacher mother and a global policy expert grandfather, and how their warnings shaped his career.
• The Dads for All Movement: Moving beyond the "nonprofit industrial complex" to build a movement that focuses on "belonging-adjacent activation."
• Bridging the Policy Gap: How to get dads involved in systemic issues like childcare affordability and paternity leave without making them feel like they’re joining a "mom space."
• Movement vs. Nonprofit: Justin explains why he pivoted away from raising money for a "job" to focus on building a sustainable base of engaged fathers.
• The 2030 Landscape: A look at how issues like AI-driven unemployment and the cost of childcare are the next frontiers for organized fatherhood.

Notable Quotes:

• "Men in my generation are doing 3x the childcare their dads did... but my statistician friend calls that a 'low bar easily cleared.'"
• "We’re not building a nonprofit; we’re building a movement. If this ends up looking like a nonprofit because that’s what I’m comfortable with, I will have failed."
• "Stay in the pocket. Once you get out of the pocket, you can’t get back in."

Resources Mentioned:

• Dads for All: https://dadsforall.com/
• Justin’s Book on School Improvement: https://www.amazon.com/Change-Agents-Transforming-Schools-Ground/dp/1071875787

Thanks to our sponsor, Mental. Mental is a wellness app built specifically for men, offering a sanctuary from "toxic positivity" and generic advice. It provides personalized, affordable, and science-backed support through real-life coaching designed to help you navigate life's messiest challenges. If you've been thinking about doing something for your mental health, visit https://app.getmental.com/subscribe to get started.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify—it helps more people find these important conversations!

In this episode, we sit down with author and activist Jonathan Mooney to explore the myth of "normalcy." Jonathan shares his personal journey navigating the education system with ADHD and dyslexia and discusses the powerful influence of the people who championed his differences. We also delve into the dark history of eugenics and its lingering impact on society's perception of disability. Finally, Jonathan introduces the Divergent Impact Fund, a new initiative aimed at supporting neurodivergent innovators.

Key Topics:

• Redefining Normal: Why the concept of a "normal" person is a harmful abstraction and how we can move toward a more inclusive design for society.
• The Power of Support: Jonathan reflects on how his mother and a transformative third-grade teacher, Mr. R, helped him see his challenges as strengths.
• The Dark History of Eugenics: A look at the US Eugenics movement and its shocking influence on global policies, including those in Nazi Germany.
• The Divergent Impact Fund: Jonathan’s mission to support innovators solving real-world problems for the neurodivergent community.
• Parenting and Technology: Navigating the unique challenges of raising children in a hyper-connected, digital world.

Notable Quotes:

• "The only normal people are people you don't know very well."
• "Our design principle for our world should be the reality of human difference, not the myth of the normal human."

Resources Mentioned:

• Jonathan's website: https://www.jonathanmooney.com/
• Jonathan's books: Normal Sucks, The Short Bus, and Learning Outside the Lines.
• The Divergent Impact Fund: divergentimpactfund.com

Thanks to our sponsor, Mental. Mental is a wellness app built specifically for men, offering a sanctuary from "toxic positivity" and generic advice. It provides personalized, affordable, and science-backed support through real-life coaching designed to help you navigate life's messiest challenges. If you've been thinking about doing something for your mental health, visit https://app.getmental.com/subscribe to get started.

Chris and Shaun welcome Sean Harvey, an advisor, consultant, author, and ordained interfaith minister. Sean has dedicated his life to helping men in hyper-masculine systems--ranging from Wall Street to police departments and the military--reconnect with their humanity. The trio discusses Sean's journey growing up as a gay man in Southwest Ohio, his transition from a high-stakes Wall Street consultant to an interfaith minister, and how to find common ground with those on the opposite end of the ideological spectrum. Sean explains the "Masculinity Imprint" on our organizations and how the term "Warrior" can help men embrace compassion.

Notable Quotes

"Compassionate Warrior is an identity that you can claim. Warrior Compassion is an energy within that men, when they’re courageous enough, can access." — Sean Harvey

"I am never going to tell you what you should be as a man. I’m never going to tell you that you need to embrace healthy masculinity...I’m going to talk about some of the realities on the journey." — Sean Harvey

"When we humanize and give officers more capacity, it actually makes them stronger. It’s not about softening; it's about strengthening." — Sean Harvey

Resources Mentioned

• Sean’s Org and Book: Warrior Compassion: Unleashing the Healing Power of Men
• MenLiving Website: menliving.org
• Here’s the bluegrass song detailing the devastating 1974 tornado that struck Xenia, Ohio: Oh! What a Storm

Thanks to our sponsor, Mental. Mental is a wellness app built specifically for men, offering a sanctuary from "toxic positivity" and generic advice. It provides personalized, affordable, and science-backed support through real-life coaching designed to help you navigate life's messiest challenges. If you've been thinking about doing something for your mental health, visit https://app.getmental.com/subscribe to get started.

In this episode, Shaun and Chris interview Janice McCabe, a sociologist from Dartmouth College and author of "Making, Keeping, and Losing Friends." They discuss making friends in college, the importance of propinquity and homophily, tight knitters, compartmentalizers, and samplers, friendship markets, the Dunbar number, her recommendation for students, parents and colleges, men and women as friends, the importance of intention in making friends and more.

Get your copy of Janice's book here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In this episode, the guys talk with acclaimed photographer, Stacy Waldman Bass, about her memoir, Lightkeeper. They explore Stacy's draw to photography, the value of stories and photos to keeping memories alive, the tragic accident that changed her life, what it's like to write a memoir, the therapeutic value of writing, the challenges of balancing grief and joy, and more.

Get your copy of Lightkeeper here

Check out Stacy's work here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In this episode, Chris and Shaun talk with Jim Maley, teacher and founder of the Maley Way. The guys discuss Jim's struggles with depression, his time as a Northwestern hoop player, enrolling at Holy Cross, screening selfishly, his mom's genius, his dad's brilliance, his wife's love, his role as a "depression agent," speaking to kids about mental health and more.

Learn more about Jim and the Maley Way here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

Join Chris and Shaun as they chat with Pete Davis, writer, film maker, and civic advocate about his book, Dedicated: The Case for Commitment in An Age of Infinite Browsing and his documentary, "Join or Die." The guys cover the influence his mom and dad had on him, growing up in Falls Church, making a life in Baltimore, why he decided not to be a lawyer, the importance of community participation, the power of invitation, the challenge of connecting in our technological times, the need for good leaders in the effort to revive civic engagement, and more.

Learn more about Pete and his missions https://petedavis.org

Watch Join or Die https://joinordiefilm.com

Get a copy of Dedicated here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In this episode, Shaun and Chris talk with Kaitlyn Tierney, co-founder and CEO of Diverting Hate, an applied research nonprofit disrupting digital radicalization of boys and men through the use of evidence, empathy, and innovation. The guys talk with Kaitlyn about the challenges of running a non-profit, the value of partnerships, dealing with threats, moving to an island, ICE, the definition of rich, the power of social media, and more.

Learn more about Diverting Hate here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In this episode, Chris and Shaun talk with Blayne Smith, co-founder of Applied Leadership Partners. The guys discuss Blayne's decision to go to West Point, his time there, and his time as a Special Operations Forces member. They also discuss golf, rucking, parenting, applied leadership, PTSD, perseverance (His book with co-author and business partner, Brandon Young, is Perseverance is Greater than Endurance), his time at Team RWB, and supporting the "Veteran Check In" initiative at the George W. Bush Institute, which provides free mental health resources for veterans and their families, and more.

Learn more about Blayne and Applied Leadership Partners here

Get Rucking at GORUCK here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In the 17th episode of the season, Chris and Shaun interview Matt Candler, educator, inventor, investor, and coach. The guys discuss the state of education, mad libs, parenting, park bench pitches, Matt's sweet garage, electrification, the intersection of joy and curiosity, fossil fuels and renewables, kindness, and more.

Learn more about Matt here

In this episode, Chris and Shaun interview Bill Burke, founder of the Optimism Institute. The guys discuss Bill's relationship with Ted Turner and his early career at Turner Broadcasting, his time leading the Weather Channel and his life in minor league baseball as owner of the Portland Sea Dogs. They discuss the importance and power of optimism, The Paradox of Modern Optimism (Burke's forthcoming book), the difficulty to remain optimistic in part to the constant negativity and "doom scrolling" fueled by social media, and more.

Learn more about the Optimism Institute here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In this episode, Chris and Shaun interview John Moe, a writer, longtime radio host, and creator of two mental health podcasts, "The Hilarious World of Depression" and "Depresh Mode with John Moe." The guys talk about the importance of hope and resilience, comeback stories, the need for open discussions about mental health and the impact of humor and empathy in addressing these issues, Patton Oswalt, the significance of community support in mental health advocacy, and more.

Learn more about John here

Listen to Depresh Mode with John Moe here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In this episode, the guys interview Jon Macaskill, former Navy SEAL and co-host of the "Men Talking Mindfulness" podcast. After doing a quick opening meditation, they discuss Jon's growing up in Louisiana, great coaches, Jon's choice to go into the military, his journey from enlisting in the Navy to becoming a SEAL, his struggles with PTSD and subsequent recovery through mindfulness. the creation of his podcast with Will Schneider and more.

Learn more about Jon here

Listent to Men Talking Mindfulness here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In this episode, Chris and Shaun interview Dr. Eli Joubert, a psychosexual therapist from Leeds, UK. They discuss Eli's work on human sexuality and the concept of "sexy facts." , growing up in South Africa, transitioning from a career in fine art to psychology, and focusing on masculinity and sexuality. Eli highlights the need for open conversations about sex and sexuality, emphasizing the importance of understanding individual experiences and normalizing behaviors. Dr. Joubert shares his idea of a platform where people can anonymously share their sexual practices and preferences, aiming to provide accessible, public data on human sexuality. He believes this could lead to healthier relationships and reduce shame around sexuality

Learn more about Eli here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

in this episode, Chris and Shaun talk with Sam Pressler, founder of the non-profit, the Armed Services Arts Partnership (ASAP) and his new project, Connective Tissue. The guys discuss entrepreneurship, grandmothers, flourishing, professionalism, veterans, humor as a connection mechanism and more!

Learn more about Sam and his projects here

Follow the Connective Tissue Substack here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

The guys chat with Chris MacLellan, also known as "Father Mac," founder of the Whole Care Network and Aging Gayfully. They discuss Chris' journey from professional bowling to caregiving, his experiences caring for his partner, Richard, who passed away from cancer in 2014. Chris highlights the challenges faced by same-sex couples in healthcare. He also talks about his work building the Whole Care Network, his screenplay based on his experiences, his time in the seminary (twice), his bowling career, and more!

Learn more about Chris and the Whole Care Network here.

Tap into Aging Gayfully here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

Chris and Shaun talk with Chris' friend, Trish Tierney, co-founder of WAKE, Women's Alliance for Knowledge Exchange. The gang discusses Notre Dame, rowing, kids, Trish's development of WAKE, lessons in travel, matchmaking women in tech with nonprofits around the world, WAKE's aims to scale its US program while exploring new countries for its international efforts, WAKE success stories, men's involvement in the program and more.

Learn more about Trish and WAKE here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In this episode, Chris and Shaun interview Joe Gidjunis, creator of the PBS documentary series "Grown Up Dad," which explores modern fatherhood. Joe's pilot episode, featuring a trip to Australia, received over 100,000 viewers. Upcoming episodes will cover topics like screen time challenges, evolving masculinity, and media literacy. Joe emphasizes the importance of intentionality and presence in parenting. He also discusses the challenges of balancing fatherhood with work and the impact of social media on children. Joe's personal journey includes finding role models in cartoons and addressing his own father's absence. The series aims to support and educate parents.

Check out the show here

Learn more about Joe and Grown Up Dad here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In this episode, Shaun and Chris welcomes Dr. Daniel Ellenberg, a psychologist, former president of Division 51 of the American Psychological Association, and founder of the Men and Boys Compassion Coalition. The guys discuss compassion, pain and suffering, New Jersey, Strong Boys with Heart, growing up Daniel, the negative perception of compassion in men, Daniel's coming book, "Strength with Heart," with Fred Rabinowitz, and much more

Learn more about Daniel here

Learn about the Men and Boys Compassion Coalition here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In this episode, Shaun and Chris sit down with Alex Johnston, philanthropy advisor, author of Money with Meaning, and founder of Building Impact Partners. Alex helps ultra-wealthy individuals bring more joy, purpose, and impact to their giving, but as you'll hear, his deeper work is about human connection and personal transformation. The guys discuss what it means to live with intention, how to grow from childhood wounds, and why moving from fear to joy might be the most important shift a person can make. Alex opens up about his own journey — from valedictorian and Rhodes Scholar to a man who had to slow down, tune in, and redefine success. Along the way, they cover parenting boys in today’s world, the challenges of wealth, and the power of small groups to create lasting change.

Get Alex's book...Money with Meaning

Learn more about Building Impact Partners here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In the sixth episode of Season 4, Shaun and Chris sit down with Cathy Cassani Adams to talk about her new book, Restoring Our Girls, a guide for parenting girls ages 12 to 25. Cathy shares insights from her work as a social worker and professor, emphasizing the importance of honest conversations, critical thinking, media literacy, and creating a supportive, non-judgmental space for girls to express themselves. They also discuss the Super Bowl, Zen Parenting Radio, life lessons, the power of sensitivity, staying grounded in our own thoughts and feelings leading with kindness, and more.

Get the book, Restoring Our Girls.

Read Cathy's Substack

Listen to Zen Parenting Radio

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In the 5th episode of the season, the boys interview Mike Simons, founder of Intonation Music Workshop, Camp for All Kids, and Chris' good friend and bandmate. They discuss Mike's career leading Intonation Music for 15 years, impacting hundreds of kids. They dig into Mike's co-founding of the Pitchfork Music Festival and Camp for All Kids which provides overnight camp experiences to underrepresented youth, emphasizing the benefits of unplugging from technology and fostering personal growth. Mike's work aims to build trust, community, and life skills in young people.

Learn more about Intonation here

Learn more about Camp For All here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In this episode, Shaun and Chris interview Captain Chris "Chowdah" Hill, Commanding Officer of the USS Harry S. Truman. Hill was commanding the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower at the time of the recording and recently took command of the Truman. During the conversation, the guys explore Chowdah's manifesto, "The Way of the Warrior Sailor," which emphasizes morale, job satisfaction, and positive relationships. They talk about love, dealing with the enemy, mental health, the challenges and nuances of managing a crew of 5,300 and 2,000 airmen, DEI, social media and more

Learn more about Chris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/capt-chris-“chowdah”-hill-35852752/

Follow Chris on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chowdah_hill/?hl=en

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In this episode, Chris and Shaun sit down with Dr. Anson Whitmer, co-founder of Calm and the creator of Mental, our new show sponsor. The boys dig into Anson’s journey—his time building Calm, one of the most well-known mindfulness apps, and how that experience led him to create Mental, a platform designed specifically for men’s mental health. We also touch on the ever-popular cold shower debate (spoiler: Shaun’s not buying it), the challenges of men engaging in self-care, and the importance of taking risks and pushing boundaries

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In this episode, the guys talk with Amiee Smith Schuster, CEO Bold Heights Solutions. The gang talks about Amiee's work with PGA golfers, michigan/michigan st, big families, "it takes a village," what is success?, hugging trees, "pissing on the present," Crazy Amiee!, golf is hard and more.

Learn more about Amiee Smith Schuster and Bold Heights Solutions here.

This episode is brought to you by Half Acre Brewery. Check out the wonderful beers on Half Acre's website.

In this first episode of the new year, Shaun and Chris talk with Ashanti Branch, founder of the Ever Forward Club, an Oakland based nonprofit with a mission to address the underlying causes of drop out rates, youth violence, and the growing achievement gap through mentoring and social emotional development. The guys talk about vulnerability, happy hour, the desire to get rich, change of plans, having a calling, masks, the power of phones, the struggles and joys of teaching and entrepreneurship and more.

Learn more about Ashanti and the Ever Forward Club here

This episode is brought to you by Judson & Moore, Family Legacy American Whiskey. Born from Boundless Curiosity. Learn more about Judson & Moore here.

In the latest edition, Chris and Shaun talk with Jonny Imerman, founder of Imerman Angels, a non profit that provides peer-to-peer support for cancer patients and survivors and co-founder of ClozTalk, a B-corp that helps nonprofits promote their causes through branded merchandise and apparel. The guys talk about peer support, cancer, some big cities, connection, storytelling, awareness, Jonny's cancer journey, greek food, brotherly love, and more.

Check out Imerman Angels

Support your favorite non profit (MenLiving?!) at ClozTalk

This episode is brought to you by Half Acre Brewery. Check out the wonderful beers on Half Acre's website.

In this episode, Shaun and Chris talk with Shana James, coach, podcaster, and author of Honest Sex. Their conversation covers vulnerability, communications, coaching men, intentional communities, honesty, mind reading...what is sex actually?, orgasmic lifestyles sprinkles, the Encyclopedia Britannica, the state of men, and more!

You can get a free copy of Shana's book here.

Listen to her podcasts Man Alive and Practicing Love here

This episode is brought to you by Half Acre Brewery. Check out the wonderful beers on Half Acre's website.

In this episode, Shaun and Chris talks with Jeremy Smith, Working Dad Course Lead for Mindful Return. The guys talk about being a dad, parental leave, leave and careers, coffee, leave as compensation, the importance of communication and more

Read about Jeremy in this WSJ article

Learn more about Mindful Return

This episode is brought to you by Half Acre Brewery. Check out the wonderful beers on Half Acre's website.

In this episode, Chris and Shaun talk with Alex Grodd, founder of The Disagreement. The guys discuss Bill Bradley, curiosity, entrepreneurship, Alex’s first start-up: A Better Lesson, education, healthy disagreement, tattoos, free will, rubrics, and more.

For more about The Disagreement: https://www.thedisagreement.com/

And to check out a Better Lesson: https://betterlesson.com

This episode is brought to you by Half Acre Brewery. Check out the wonderful beers on Half Acre's website.

Back on the show for this season's 13th episode is one of our first guests, Ben Feller. Ben is a father, author, communications consultant, yankee fan and former White House Correspondent. In an always rollicking conversation, the guys discuss Anthony Volpe, transitions, new "jobs," highest and best use of time, corporate "language" strategy, death, self-awareness, curveballs, fathering and more.

For more on Ben and his firm, maslansky + partners https://maslansky.com/

Check out Ben's book: https://www.amazon.com/Big-Problems-Little-Ben-Feller/dp/088448890X

This episode is brought to you by Half Acre Brewery. Check out the wonderful beers on Half Acre's website.

In episode 12, Shaun and Chris talk with Dr. Jed Diamond, renowned men's health advocate, author, therapist, and founder of both MenAlive and the Moonshot For Mankind. The guys talk about family, how Jed got into working with men, male menopause, the moonshot, the power of technology, hormones, living a long life, irritable males, islands of sanity, etc

Learn more about Jed and his writings at https://menalive.com/

The Moonshot For Mankind https://moonshotformankind.org/

This episode is brought to you by Half Acre Brewery. Check out the wonderful beers on Half Acre's website.

In this season's 11th episode, Shaun and Chris chat with MenLiving Contributing Members, Facilitators, and brothers, Jason and Jeremy Samatas. The boys explore what it was like growing up Samatas, who was the better athlete, how their relationship developed over the years, their dad's influence, working in and surviving the family business, and more.

This episode is brought to you by Half Acre Brewery. Check out the wonderful beers on Half Acre's website.

In this episode, Chris and Shaun interview Adam Nimoy, writer, director, producer, and author of The Most Human, Reconciling With My Father, Leonard Nimoy. Among other topics, the boys explore growing up Spock, the Grateful Dead, The Offspring, the importance of dwellings, 12 step, parenting, love & loss and much more.

Get Adam’s book, Most Human here

This episode is brought to you by Judson & Moore, Family Legacy American Whiskey. Born from Boundless Curiosity. Learn more about Judson & Moore here.