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"If your vibe is you got there at five, but at midnight you’re still there because you just can’t get enough, we’re definitely not gonna kick you out. We’re gonna find a way to make it all work, and that’s where the sidewalk tables get created. Always leave room for excess is something we swear by." - Vanya Filipovic

Vanya Filipovic, Marc-Olivier Frappier, and Jessica Noël, the co-owners of Montreal’s beloved Mon Lapin, join me from Montreal to share their Five Rules for Hosting Like a Montrealer. We talk about making room when there is none, finding the magic in a winter storm, never underestimating the wine, loving people more than perfection, and always leaving room for excess. Their rules capture the particular generosity of Montreal hospitality: the table is crowded, the bottles keep opening, and nobody is looking at the clock.

I love these people, and I love Montreal—the food, the wine, the cold, the warmth, and the way a night there can become something larger than you planned. Few places have shaped the way I think about restaurants and hospitality more deeply, and talking with Vanya, Marco, and Jessica brings all of it rushing back. This episode takes me home, to a city where there is always another chair to pull up, another glass to pour, and every good meal feels like it could last forever.

Five Rules for Hosting Like a Montrealer

Introduction

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I’m back in the motherland of Montreal, chatting with the co-owners of Mon Lapin, Marc-Olivier, Vanya, and Jessica, whose new cookbook, The Mon Lapin Cookbook, will be out on Phaidon this fall and is available for pre-order anywhere you can get your books.

They are here to share their five rules for hosting like a Montrealer. They talk about the importance of always pulling up a chair for one more person at the table, to see the excessive cold during the winter as a positive, and to leave your watch at home when decadence is on the menu. It is a conversation that means so much to my heart and reminds me of why I love the city and the people of Montreal so much.

So let’s get into the rules here on HRN.

Montreal, Mon Lapin, and the People Behind It

Vanya, Jessica, Marco, so good to see you. I miss all of you, and I miss one of my hometowns in Montreal. Thanks for making the time, and congratulations on the book.

Thank you for having us.

Yeah, thank you for having us.

Montreal, as you know, is one of the all-time greatest culinary cities in the world. For anyone who’s never been, what makes it so special?

Montreal has a vibe. Anyone who’s come to Montreal knows it’s a mix of bitter cold winters, French-English mashup, and beautiful people who just love to go a little overboard in eating, drinking, and being out, just consumption of culture in general.

There’s the classic eponymous joie de vivre that really resonates, especially if you haven’t been before. I think it’s something that jumps out at you. We love Montreal.

First & Foremost, Friends

You’ve all worked in the city for years together and at separate restaurants, and have now been at Mon Lapin pretty much since the very first day. How have you inspired each other? What have you learned from each other? And how has the city inspired what you do?

We all became really close friends. I mean, Vanya and I are married, but before we opened, we knew Jess for a long time, but not to a level that we do now. And same thing for Marc-Antoine and Alex. It’s been very important for us before everything, before the restaurant, before the food, the wine, to really focus on the people. It’s something that people don’t talk about enough.

A happy partnership and a happy co-chefing that we have, Vanya, with Alex and the wine and Marc-Antoine. I find that everything stems from that. If we’re happy, we’re getting along. That trickles down on the whole restaurant, everybody working in it through the customers. That’s the thing that we try to maintain the most. It’s like being with somebody for a long time.

Some weeks we have to do nothing and everything’s good. And some weeks we have to do better. It’s normal. We’re five people. The fact that we have this solid partnership, I really find that what makes Mon Lapin the most.

The Mon Lapin Cookbook

I love that. I love that these are the relationships that drive you, connect you with the customers and you with each other. In The Mon Lapin Cookbook: De Toute Beauté: From Montreal, with Love, this through line of all of you being connected with each other, the farmers, the customers, is this beautiful through line for the book. Why was this the driving narrative that you want to center everything around?

I think we wanted people to really feel the energy of what we do here, whether that’s through partnerships or what small things that we do every day, even within the restaurants. Showing all those things just makes that energy shine through the pages.

Sure. We didn’t want to make a cookbook cookbook, just like here are the recipes of the restaurant.

Of course. Everything’s online. If you want the pétoncle recipe, it’s in the book. I’m sure if you really look online, you’ll find it somewhere.

Yeah. We wanted to portray the restaurant as a whole, every little aspect from the art to the wine, to the food, to the service, to the people, to the customers.

I feel like there’s a lot of restaurant cookbooks. There’s a lot of influencer cookbooks. There’s a lot of 110 recipes for sandwiches. I think we did a good job at portraying the restaurant, painting a good picture of what Mon Lapin is.

I think all of you are aware of my deep love of Montreal, both as a city and then as a place going out to eat. I love the hospitality that the city represents and that I always feel when I dine with you at your restaurants, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for hosting like a Montrealer.

Rule One: The More the Merrier

Whenever I’ve gone to eat there, what I love is how packed every place is and how there’s always an open seat for anyone who wants to join, which makes up your rule number one.

Rule number one is the more the merrier. And I’m so happy you feel it personally when you come because it really is the vibe.

We have a partner, Alex. He is my wingman sommelier. He is a master of making the milk crate that’s hanging in the back store into a table of six.

I love it. To walk down the street and see people eating on upside down boxes with a little tablecloth over top is a very Montreal thing.

We love being able to say yes even when the answer should be no. When there isn’t room, we love making room. The energy that’s going to come from it is going to be greater than anything else.

Rule Two: Embrace the Winter

One of the best things about the restaurants in Montreal being so warm and so welcoming is that during the cold months, of which there are many, there’s always a place to come in, feel that love, get a good bite to eat, have something great to drink. The thing that I’ve always appreciated about those who run restaurants is they never run away from the frigid temperatures, which is a big part of your rule number two.

Embrace the winter. This is half of what we are and what the city is. We’re always asked, it’s going to snow today, are you open? Yes, we are. We cook a bit differently in the winter. We love to embrace it as much as possible.

In the front of the house aspect, packing people in, making it warm, having the music a bit up, serving different kinds of wines. And in the kitchen side, we serve a bit heartier dishes, some preserves, some pickles from the summer, maybe a bit more meat. We’re not going to shy from it. This is what Quebec is.

The embracing of the winter makes the summer and the spring so much more enjoyable when it comes. And it makes the winter this very special moment at the restaurant.

Those nights where there is an actual storm outside is the most magical nights that can happen in the restaurant. It’s the best. Everybody has rosy cheeks. Everybody’s just happy to be warm. And it’s just the magic.

No one’s leaving.

Nobody’s leaving, yeah. No one’s like, let me go walk into the storm again. You know, all the desserts and cheese and just see if it happens three times a year. Next time you hear snowstorm in Montreal, book a table.

Rule Three: Never Underestimate the Wine

I was there for my bachelor party for a blizzard of Montreal. We landed and went straight to Joe Beef. Vanya welcomed us with open arms and a couple of delicious bottles, which makes up your rule number three.

Never underestimate the wine is rule number three. There’s a non-pretension, amazing appreciation and just sharing of the wine. We all have our little geeky, nerdy things that we love and we love to share and talk about, but it really is just about uncorking wine and getting everybody into it.

We love to exaggerate. So we’ve completely exaggerated at Mon Lapin. We have like an extremely deep cellar. The wine list is like a Bible.

Yeah, it makes us so happy to be able to show up to a table carrying a bunch of bottles and letting the magic happen.

Rule Four: Love People More Than Perfection

Being able to let the magic happen, trusting both yourselves and everyone working at the restaurant takes a lot of years of hard work to seem so effortless. But also understanding that sometimes not everything is gonna be exactly the way that you want it, which makes up your rule number four.

Our fourth rule is love people more than perfection. If we look at it in more of a food way, produce can be perfect, imperfect, and we go with it however we feel in that moment. We’re never the type of place either that’s planning out what we’re going to be doing.

There’s no lab testing of whatever dish we’re gonna be putting on the menu.

Oh yeah, the lab.

Yeah, the famous lab.

That never happens. Always the kind of spur of the moment that translates through everything in the restaurant where nothing is so calculated. There’s wiggle room. And that makes it perfect in its own way.

That’s what we were going for. It didn’t happen like that because we didn’t find a lab. That’s what we always wanted.

Rule Five: Always Leave Room for Excess

Given your love and your dedication to cuisine, wine, hospitality, and making room for anyone who wants to be a part of it is one of the reasons why I love dining in Montreal. Your fifth and final rule talks about embracing what could happen over any given night in any restaurant in the city in the most decadent way possible. What’s your rule number five?

Always leave room for excess.

What’s excess in French?

Excess.

Marco did this interview the other day. I laughed so hard. He said, you come to Mon Lapin and the table is not ready. And the reason is because of this rule.

The next people that are coming have to wait a couple of minutes with a glass of champagne or with a cocktail or even their first appetizer standing in a corner because we are literally the opposite of those restaurants that tell you your reservation is at this time, you have to be out at this time. We literally are allergic to that process. I mean, no offense to anyone who operates that way, but we really just like to go with the flow.

And if your vibe is you got there at five, but at midnight you’re still there because you just can’t get enough, we’re definitely not gonna kick you out. We’re gonna find a way to make it all work and that’s where the sidewalk tables get created. Always leave room for excess is something we swear by.

Closing

Congratulations on everything. The book is beautiful. I cannot wait to hold it.

Thank you.

I cannot wait to come back and dine with you guys. Hopefully you guys are going on tour and swinging through LA. If people want to come to the restaurants, order the book or to see what you’re up to, where can they go?

VinMonLapin.com is our website. It has links to reservations. It has links to sample menus, cute photos where you can see what we do. Then it has a link to our web shop where you can buy the book in both French and English. And that’s it.

Amazing. I can’t wait to see you again. I can’t wait to drink and eat with you again.

You gotta come back soon.

We’re gonna make it down to LA.

I’ll help get the city ready to host you so you can feel like you’re in Montreal. Thank you guys again and can’t wait to see you soon.

Thank you.

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"All of it is inviting participation. Participation in the magic around us.” - Evan Marks

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Evan Marks

Evan Marks, founder and executive director of The Ecology Center, joins me to share his Five Rules for an Abundant Life. We talk about finding gratitude in the miraculous, growing your own food, taking nourishment seriously, making things with your hands, and sharing whatever you have in surplus. Together, his rules offer a thoughtful invitation to reconnect with nature, contribute to your community, and build a richer life by becoming an active participant in it.

What Evan and his community have built in San Juan Capistrano is more than a regenerative organic farm. It is a living example of what becomes possible when people come together around food, nature, and a shared sense of purpose. The Ecology Center reminds us that life is not something we are meant to simply observe or consume. We have to participate—to plant something, make something, share something, and give a little of ourselves to the world around us. The more we take part in life, the more abundant it becomes.

Introduction

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I sit down with Evan Marks, the founder and executive director of The Ecology Center, a truly awe-inspiring, regenerative, organic farm, cafe, and education center located in Southern California.

He’s here to share his five rules for an abundant life. He talks about the importance of participating, that making something yourself leads to a much richer life, and that the more you share with others, the more the world shares with you. This conversation offers incredible insights on a different approach to living and how, by redefining your relationship with nature, you will be able to live a much richer life.

So let’s get into the rules here on HRN.

The Ecology Center

Evan, so nice to meet you. I’m so excited to be talking to you today about The Ecology Center. You’ve built such a beautiful space. Welcome to the show.

Thank you, brother. Honored to be here.

For those who might be unfamiliar with The Ecology Center, truly a unique place, can you explain its mission and its approach to food?

Its mission is to shift culture. How we’ve done that so far is we’ve built an environment, an ecotopia. It’s a 28-acre ecosystem that inspires us to think and be in a different state, and that connects back to food, reminding people of the basic tenets of knowing where your food comes from and being deeply nourished, mind-body-spirit, in those endeavors of food or otherwise.

As the founder, how did you take your life studies and adventures and turn it into something tangible?

The Sum of a Life

I like to say that we’re just all individually a sum of the parts that we’ve been paying attention to. I guess I was lucky to have good mentors, and I attuned my awareness to mostly traditional people, Indigenous cultures, and tropical environments. I just became fascinated with how humans have lived on this planet for centuries in harmony.

That’s really been the design challenge: How do we take those pieces of civilization and culture and integrate them into the present and future tenets in a place unlikely like Orange County?

The Principle of Participation

There are a lot of tenets that make up what you’ve put together. One of the ones that really stuck out to me was this fundamental principle of participation. How do you weave this through the Center’s farm, garden, cafe, and all of its endeavors?

We’re a village, so we’ve got a lot of different expressions. All of it is inviting participation. Participation in the magic around us. Participation in our food system. Participation in the joy of being on this beautiful planet.

We do that through a whole myriad of programs, from farm dinners to music festivals, to yoga classes, to field trips, to cooking classes, to shopping at the cafe and eating in the farm stand. It’s a real wide aperture of offerings here, but all of it is an invitation to jump on board.

I love that you’ve opened up your life in this space, showing people who are looking for a different type of living and being so generous with that, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules of an abundant life.

Rule One: Find Gratitude in the Miraculous

In setting the foundation for this approach to living, it really comes with finding this right mindset and searching for this one thing. What’s your rule number one?

So much of the magic that we’re trying to inspire is the state of being. My first rule is in the context of peace and finding gratitude in the miraculous.

I love that.

There’s magic everywhere, and life is precious and planet Earth is sacred. The path that I’ve found is finding deep relationship and reverence to nature. When we can do that, we learn how to fill our tanks and inspire purpose, and that motivates us to be the best version of ourselves.

Rule Two: Grow Your Own and Start Small

As people have experienced life and lived in our current society, there has been a real separation from understanding where food or things that come from the Earth really come from. Your second rule talks about getting back to this practice and figuring out how to make something of your own. What’s your rule number two?

Yeah, my rule number two is grow your own and start small. Small-scale solutions are the path forward. That means getting good at planting a container garden of herbs and tomatoes, having potted plants in your apartment, or a lemon tree out the back door of your kitchen. These are all just simple invitations to participate in adding that magic element to every meal.

Moving out to California from New York, I remember the first time I picked a lime from the tree in my backyard and the absolute beauty and magic that came from putting it in my drink. Living here now for the last 10 years, I’ve really adjusted the way that I think about the food that I cook and what I put into my body, which makes up your rule number three.

Rule Three: Health Is Wealth

Health is wealth. Take nourishment seriously. The path to that is knowing your farmers and getting excited about making those meaningful investments in your health and the health of your ecosystem. Go to the source: the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker. The farmer’s market is your number one stop.

Rule Four: Do It Yourself

Beyond just buying locally or growing your own food, there is a way that a lot of people consume now that is one and done. If it’s broke, just buy something new, or really be intimidated to practice this DIY lifestyle. Your rule number four talks about the importance of understanding how to make something for yourself. What’s your rule number four?

Rule number four is do it yourself. Use your hands. Make something.

That, in my context, could be making a worm bin, building raised beds in your backyard, or building a picnic table to celebrate the harvest with your children. The core of it is put your hands to work, get them away from any of the digital toxins, and move them back into planet Earth.

Rule Five: Share the Surplus

I know, as people look at the life in front of them, think about what they can make, what they can cook, what they can grow, and what money they have to spend, there is this concern about either not having enough or wasting things. Your fifth and final rule talks about planning for a life of abundance while considering what you can give to other people. What’s your rule number five?

Rule number five is to share the surplus. That is really in the consciousness more than anything, which is the more you give, the more you get. We all want to line up to those age-old principles of leaving it better than we found it and giving more than we take.

That can be volunteering a little bit of time to a meaningful cause. That could be sharing an extra lemon from your tree or donating some extra resources to an organization that you care about in your community. All of these are participatory ways of getting on board with the shift in the culture that is necessary for an abundant future for all of us.

Closing

Evan, congratulations on everything that you built. If people want to visit the farm, stop by the cafe, or check out the dinners you’re throwing, where can they go? How can they sign up to keep informed?

Check us out online at theecologycenter.org. Most importantly, come on down. We’re in San Juan Capistrano. That’s between Los Angeles and San Diego. It’s a worthy field trip, and it’s a full day of fun here on the farm. That’s the best way to do it, is just to dive in.

I can’t wait to swing down with my family someday soon. Evan, appreciate the time, and can’t wait to dine with you around your shared table.

Thanks, brother. Appreciate the opportunity to share.

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Justin Pichetrungsi, chef and owner of Anajak Thai Cuisine, joins me to share his Five (Easy) Rules for Taking Over Your Parents’ Restaurant. We talk about burning yourself out—and knowing when not to—along with the importance of arguing with your parents, listening to them, and recognizing that old things are often cooler than new ones. Justin reflects on taking over his family’s restaurant, preserving its history, and finding a way to move the business forward without losing what made it special. Together, his rules offer an honest and thoughtful guide to inheriting not only a restaurant, but all the memories, relationships, and responsibilities that come with it.

The beauty of this episode is Justin’s openness about how complicated it can be to carry on a family tradition. He does not romanticize the work or pretend the transition happened without disagreements, exhaustion, or doubt. Instead, he shows how listening, arguing, preserving, and changing can all be expressions of the same love. There is something deeply moving about watching a new generation build upon what came before while making sure the people, stories, and traditions that created it are never forgotten.

Introduction

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. I’m always excited when I get to spend time with today’s guest, Justin Pichetrungsi who is the chef and owner of Anajak Thai Cuisine.

He’s here to share his five easy rules to taking over your parents’ restaurant. He talks about the duality of both burning yourself out and taking care of yourself, the importance of arguing with your parents, and how everything old is cooler than everything new. It is an extremely insightful conversation from someone who has successfully transitioned his family’s restaurant from one generation to another.

For anyone who has found themselves in the same situation or for anyone who wants to hear the story of how it is done well, this is the episode for you. So let’s get into the rules here on HRN. Justin, always a pleasure to see you.

Thank you again for splashing us out the last time we were in. Welcome to Five Rules. Thank you, I like this.

Taking Over the Family Restaurant

In many ways, the tradition of taking over a parent’s restaurant used to be common. Why do you think that went away and why do you think it’s back? Is it back? You tell me. Oh, why do I think it went away? I actually have thought about this quite a bit.

You see this a lot in Europe. You see it a lot in Asia. You see a lot of the passing down of the torch to the next generation, whether or not it’s a restaurant.

Why don’t we see it here in Los Angeles so much or in America rather? And I think it’s because we have this belief that we can become independently wealthy within one generation. So it’s not necessary to build upon the intergenerational wealth and knowledge that our parents passed down. I can charge ahead in my own career and live the fullest of my life in the way that I wanna do it.

The second thing is that there’s a lot of parents of immigrants, a lot of parents of non-immigrants that are gonna say, no, I want you to live life better than I live. Don’t take over my shop. Pursue your dreams, pursue your life.

I was always really afraid that I was gonna lose something if my parents closed the restaurant down. I was gonna lose a part of the family. I was gonna lose my living room where I’m sitting in right now. That fear of what was gonna happen to the recipes and to the memories was really what guided me into it.

A Beautiful Renovation

You’re celebrating your 45th restaurant birthday and you recently did a beautiful renovation of Anna Jack. What did you wanna preserve? What did you wanna overhaul? I love the atmosphere that the old place became.

It was hard to be able to explain that to my general contractor. In fact, I moved on to different contractors until I found someone who understood this idea that it wasn’t gonna be a change. We’re gonna take the little needle and poke it into the thing, extract the DNA, and then the T-Rex, right? Dave Chang said to me, it was days right before we closed for the demolition, he said.

There’s only three things you need to keep. One, the wine in the middle of the room, which makes no sense. One of one.

Two, the Kobe jersey, and three, your grandfather’s art. And those were the things that stayed. Sometimes having those items that represent the lineage of the restaurant are so important to have and really help tell the story.

Sharing with Your Parents

It’s amazing because you’ve been able to do all this and share it with your parents. What’s been the most special part about that to you? They were leaving the restaurant at the end of their career in a state that was very challenged. If you remember the feelings that you were going through in 2007, 2008, 2009, the difficulties of what restaurants were going through during the recessionary time.

Tough. It hit my parents so hard. They were working seven days a week.

For the most part, just the two of them, plus a few other helpers. So for me, to be able to see them at a certain sense of peace, at least peace within the business. Life is as hectic as it always is.

I’m the most proud of that, knowing that they can go into their retirement without worrying about that. This was my gift to him, truly. It’s such a beautiful gift.

And as more people in America start to look to continue on traditions, especially in the hospitality space, being able to see what you’ve done and using it as a map is nothing short of amazing, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five easy steps to taking over your parents’ restaurant. Easy redacted, by the way. Easy redacted.

Rule One: Burn Yourself Out

You can look at social media, you can look at this a few years in and feel like everything’s gelled completely. There was a plan from the beginning that the success came effortlessly, which couldn’t be farther from the truth and ties directly into your rule number one. Rule number one is burn yourself out.

It’s an interesting rule to give because we’re such in a mode of career wokeness that we have to protect ourselves, right? Which I respect, I really do. But also, in the food business, in the restaurant business, it’s a 24 hour business, more or less. By the time the cleaners leave, the AM teams come in.

To dive so deep into every aspect of it, of course, it’s kind of hyperbole, burn yourself out. Of course. We’re all in this kind of cycle of burning ourselves out, finding inspiration.

Rule Two: Do Not Burn Yourself Out

It’s this constant molting of our outer shell and getting stronger as we do it that it really motivates you and it can motivate the team and motivate the diners as well to put everything into it. Putting everything into it does inspire the people who are following you and the diners at large, especially when you’re taking something that’s beloved and making a lot of big changes. The other side of the coin from your rule number one is this, what’s your rule number two? Conversely, my rule number two is to not burn yourself out, to be quite careful of it because the dichotomy of that delirium and the creativity that comes from the delirium of being up all night.

Contrast that with the creativity that you get from being relaxed, being bored. Daniel Son from Sonagi said, I’m never as creative as I am as when I’m bored. Boredom is the birthplace of great creativity.

The mind is able to wander and honestly, the pandemic or the pandy, as I’m trying to call it. The pandy taught us that we could use this downtime to interact with other people, interact with other industries, interact with other chefs. Interact with yourself.

Interact with ourselves and the world and nature and all of these countries that have all these longstanding multi-generational family businesses. We have to learn from that. You touch on a good point.

Rule Three: Argue With Your Parents

These are multi-generational businesses, which means you’re not just taking the name, you’re taking everything that comes with a restaurant. That means you’re also taking your parents, which can sometimes lead to creative tension and ties directly into your rule number three. Rule number three is that you have to argue with your parents.

On the record. On the record, I’m saying it’s absolutely crucial. You need to let them know with the full honesty and the full emotion, how you feel about things moving forward in the business.

Ed Catmull from Pixar said that Steve Jobs fired a guy on the board of Pixar because he never argued with him. I respect that. He was trying to say, I wanna learn from someone else’s perspective.

Why do I need someone who also has my perspective? I got that covered. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My folks and I learned how to argue with one another.

We learned how to understand each other through this process. We were able to get our perspectives to co-exist in the same space. At Old Anajac, you felt the tension of those things.

Rule Four: Listen to Your Parents

It’s just like these magnets that almost could never touch. Just like your rule number one and number two, there is a dichotomy with your rule number three in working with your parents. What’s your rule number four? If rule number three is to argue with your parents, rule number four is to listen to your parents.

On the record. On the record, kids. A lot of people will say this as they get older.

Your parents were right much of the time. Fair. My parents are a little bit old school in the way that they think about business.

I mean, the kind of small business, immigrant control formula is very different. I understand control to be, it’s not a zero sum game. I understand the role of creativity and the role of managing creatives as a part of the business.

There may be some kind of loss when you go from one style to the other. My dad was a real yeller in the kitchen and my parents are always like, you need to have control. And actually the truth is sometimes you do need to have control.

There’s no business that’s authoritarian fully and also fully democratic. You have to have a push and pull. You have to have systems of checks and balances at the same time.

For me, where my folks have been right most of the time, it takes me a while before I accept it. My dad was not cooking at such a scale. He cooked like a home cook and there’s such a purity in that.

I try as best as I can to listen to his advice about these things. And then eventually I’m like, oh yeah, okay, well let’s try it that way. And then it works.

Rule Five: Old Things Are Cooler Than New Things

There is something to be said about the old school ways working, especially today when there’s so many new spots, so many new trends that it can get overwhelming and exhausting. Your fifth and final rule talks about looking backwards to go forwards. What’s your rule number five? Rule number five is that old things are cooler than new things.

Yeah. I love the kind of physiognomy of space and of objects. My good friend Johnny Lee says, I don’t look forward to invent new dishes.

I look backwards. Dishes that you look back 100, 200, 300 years may be just as alien and innovative as looking forward and creating new technique. When I look at the design of the kitchen, we redid every single square footage of it and we replaced every single bit of equipment except for one thing, which is the wok.

And my dad’s wok station, it’s probably been there for about 35 years. And I was like, we have to keep that thing. We had someone refurbish this station.

So I called up the guys in Chinatown that came over here. The guy takes a look at the serial number. He goes, I built this wok.

Wow. He’s like, how is your dad doing? I remember coming here, it was a small little place and I can’t believe you guys still have this. And he said, we’ve never seen a wok this old before.

And I was like, oh, I’m so glad that I kept it. And then he refurbished it. It’s pretty much brand new.

It’s incredible. There’s feeling that we can connect to when something is furnished at the edges a little bit. I love it.

Closing

Justin, congratulations to you and your family on 45 years. Here’s to 45 more. Thank you.

If people want to come by the restaurant or see the special events that you’re doing, where can they go? Come to the Instagram, at Anajak Thai Food. Open table is where you can get the reservations. Reservations do exist, but we’d love to see you for some of the events.

You’re always welcome, Darin. Well, I will take you up on that offer and I cannot wait to pop back in. Thanks, buddy.

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Restaurant photographer Carter Hiyama, whose book On Service, Volume One is out now, joins me to share his Five Rules for Restaurant Food Photography. We talk about why light is everything, the importance of removing distractions from the table, and why making sure your lens is clean is a must. He also explains how his background shooting skateboarding influenced the way he captures the kinetic energy of restaurant kitchens and the feeling of being in the dining room.

Everyone wants to take better food photos, whether it is to show their love of food, support their local restaurant scene, or share something they are genuinely excited about. A great photograph can introduce people to a restaurant, celebrate the work happening in its kitchen, and help us feel more connected to the community around it. I love how Carter’s rules make that feel possible for everyone, regardless of the camera they use or how much experience they have. His inisghts give us the tools to take better pictures while reminding us that the real goal is to appreciate the food, the people who made it, and the experience of being there.

Introduction

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I’m joined by my good bud, Carter Hiyama, who is a restaurant photographer based out of Portland, Oregon, whose new book, On Service, Volume 1, is out now.

He’s here to share his five rules for restaurant photography. He talks about the importance of lighting, why you should remove any distractions when setting up your shot, and, most importantly, why you shouldn’t let taking photos interrupt your meal.

It is a great conversation for anyone who is shooting professionally and wants to up their game, or anyone who is just snapping photos for their own social feed. So, let’s get into the rules here on HRN.

Getting Started in Restaurant Photography

Carter, always great to see you. It was such a pleasure to have dinner with you and Veronica Ahum up in Portland the other week. Welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

Photography, especially food photography, has become so ubiquitous today. When did you realize that you wanted to move into doing it more professionally?

I think it was probably right around 2019. I had just started to work with some restaurants, most notably Bell’s, but I was actually just doing video at the time. Shout out. That was when I got my first taste of doing restaurant work, and at the same time, I started to get really into food.

So, I fell in love with the thought of being able to do it professionally. Luckily, since then, that’s what I’ve been doing.

Finding a Personal Style

Every photographer has their own unique style and approach. What are the stories and themes that influence your work? What are you trying to show through your work?

I came from shooting skateboarding. I feel like I always tie things back to that. One of my favorite things to shoot is in the kitchen with a wide lens and just getting right up in there. It feels like I’m filming skating with a fisheye lens.

Most of the time, when I’m shooting food photography or just restaurant photography in general, it’s more about trying to convey what it’s like to actually be at this restaurant. Not just showing what the food looks like, but what the surroundings look like, what the vibe of the restaurant is, and what it feels like to actually sit there and eat.

Creating On Service, Volume 1

If you follow your work on Instagram or just know you personally, you’ve been to so many restaurants and have thousands of photos. How did you select the ones for your first book, On Service, Volume 1?

First, I started with really wanting to feature Bell’s and Anajak. From there, I was trying to pick the photos that were the most influential or sentimental to me.

Aside from that, it’s a combination of a lot of my favorite shots that I’ve taken over the last five years or so.

What I love about your work is that it’s so personal, so accessible, and seems like anyone who wants to start taking their photos to another level can learn a lot from what you do. That is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for restaurant food photography.

Rule One: Light Is Everything

Many of us have run into this situation: A gorgeous plate hits the table, phones come out, and there are shadows, it’s dark, and there’s just no way you’re going to get a good shot of the food. This applies a lot of times even when you’re shooting during the day, before the restaurant opens for service, and is a big consideration for your rule number one.

Rule number one is: Light is everything.

It doesn’t matter what kind of camera you’re taking with. If your light is really bad, the photo is going to be bad. If your light is really good, you could be shooting on a professional camera or an iPhone, and it’ll look great. That’s really the determining factor in how well the dish looks and whether the textures and colors come out.

The thing that I was thinking about with the light is that I always want it to come from one direction and kind of rake across the dish. That’s how you get a lot of texture to come out.

If you think of something like bread that has a lot of little crevices, if you have light that’s coming across it, all those little crevices create tiny little shadows, which really makes the dish pop.

The way you position the light is so important for pulling out all those minute details that really make your food pop. But where you’re taking the photo from also plays a big role and makes up your rule number two.

Rule Two: Think About Your Angle

Rule number two is: Think about your angle.

A lot of it will depend on the dish that you’re shooting. For instance, a burger. Usually, you wouldn’t really want to shoot that from the top because it’ll just look like a brown circle of the bun.

When you think about the dish that you’re shooting, what is the most important thing that you want to feature about it? With a burger, you really want to see the layers and the melty cheese coming off the side. Then you know you want to shoot it from a lower angle and show off that side profile, versus something like a pizza, which you would shoot from overhead.

Shooting from overhead has become a pretty well-seen style because people want these natural, lived-in environments. But just because you’re shooting the entire table doesn’t mean that everything needs to stay on the table.

Rule Three: Remove Distractions

What’s your rule number three?

Rule number three is: Remove distractions.

Things like dirty napkins, empty glasses, and phones. That’s a common one—people’s phones on the tables. Maybe it’s just a pet peeve of mine, but I feel like I always try to move those out of the way.

This is just for casually taking photos, not during a professional shoot. If you’re just out having dinner with friends and I’m trying to take a quick photo, usually less is more.

If I’m just trying to feature one dish, I’ll try to make sure that’s the main focus. You can include other plates, cocktails, wine, or a menu—something creeping into the frame. I feel like that is always nice.

Rule Four: Clean Your Lens

Summertime is here, and there’s so much great food at restaurants and in the market. That also means people who are outside are usually lathered up in sunscreen. Your fourth rule talks about the importance of keeping this clean.

What’s your rule number four?

Rule number four is: Clean your lens.

Yeah, I know it sounds basic, but it’s kind of surprising how often I’ll open up my camera and I can tell the lens is blurry or smeared. Or, if there’s some light hitting the lens, you can tell everything’s super washed out and you get a ton of glare.

Basic camera tips: Wipe your lens, tap on the dish or whatever you’re trying to focus on, and make sure that’s in focus.

If you’re shooting in sunlight, lower the exposure. A lot of the time, bright hot spots on the plate will be super blown out. For some reason, the phone is just okay with that. So, I always try to darken it, and that makes for a nicer picture.

Rule Five: Don’t Let Taking Photos Interrupt Your Meal

There are so many things to consider when you’re taking a nice photograph at a restaurant. Whether that’s a candid portrait of a chef while you’re in the kitchen or a dish that’s on your table, it can take a lot of time to get everything adjusted just the way you want.

Your fifth and final rule talks about balancing the time it takes to take a photo with this consideration. What’s your rule number five?

Rule number five is: Don’t let taking photos interrupt your meal.

I’m guilty of it, but yes.

When we had dinner, it was totally fine. We just took our phones out really quickly and snapped a couple of pictures.

Yeah. I feel like that’s the perfect balance. Sometimes I’ll see people taking their phones out every time a dish hits the table, or they start recording videos and everyone has to stop what they’re doing to pause for this content moment.

If that’s what you’re there to do and you’re being paid to be there and do that, that’s totally fine. I feel like, in a regular, casual dinner setting, it can be kind of disruptive.

Yeah.

So, I usually just try to get my couple of pictures, and that’s it.

Closing

Carter, congratulations on the book. If anyone wants to order one of the few remaining copies, because it’s almost sold out, or follow along with the work that you’re shooting on a day-to-day basis, where can they go?

I have them for sale on my website at carterhiyama.com, and they’re also being sold at select stores across the U.S.

Support your local independent bookshop. Shout out to Now Serving. I know that they have a few copies left here in L.A.

I can’t wait to see you again, share another meal, and take some photos together when we’re in the same city.

Definitely. Thanks for having me.

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Adam Weissblatt, co-founder of Last Word Hospitality and author of For the Love of Restaurants, joins me to share his Five Rules for Opening a Neighborhood Restaurant. We talk about trusting your gut, treating your landlord like a true business partner, and making sure you can deliver on what you promise. After opening seven restaurants of his own, Adam offers an honest and practical look at what it takes to turn the dream of a restaurant into a place that can become part of its community.

What I find most inspiring about Adam is his willingness to openly share knowledge that took him years—and plenty of hard lessons—to earn. For more people to succeed in this industry, we need more people willing to follow his example and let go of the gatekeeping that has kept so much valuable information out of reach. Sharing what you know does not diminish your own accomplishments; it gives someone else a better chance to build something meaningful of their own

Introduction

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I’m chatting with Adam Weissblatt, the co-founder of Last Word Hospitality and the author of For the Love of Restaurants, An Insider’s Guide from Daydreams to Opening Night, which comes out tomorrow on August 11th.

He’s here to share his five rules for opening a neighborhood restaurant. He talks about the importance of trusting your gut, how by building the right team sets you up for the right success, and that by being honest with yourself and those you’re working with allows for a long existence in any community. It’s a great conversation for anyone who’s ever dreamed of opening up their own space from someone who has walked the walk and opened up seven of his own spaces.

The Neighborhood Restaurant

So let’s get into the rules here on HRN. Adam, always great to see your smiling face. Thank you for taking a break from your restaurants and hospitality group and congrats on the book, The Love of Restaurants, which comes out tomorrow.

Yes, sir. Tomorrow. It used to be that a neighborhood restaurant was a bit of a backhanded compliment.

Rise of the Neighborhood Restaurant

How has that perception and term shifted over the last few years? As the economy struggles, people are looking for familiarity and they’re looking for comfort. A restaurant is the ultimate form of being able to go out, have a big night out, but then maybe not spend as much, including just on the simple realities of getting to and from. What it costs to get in an Uber or gas or everything like that.

It all factors into how people make decisions about where they’re going to eat. Now, maybe more than ever, people are looking for that neighborhood comforting place and want a place they can call their own. That’s really good.

The Search

Your group, Last Word Hospitality, has specialized in neighborhood restaurants and has seven different spots in your portfolio. What is the through line that ties them all together and makes them a part of their individual communities? We’re always just looking for beautiful spaces that represent a cool aesthetic of that neighborhood. When you take an old building that’s been there since the 20s or 30s and it’s been uncared for and you put love into it, that already starts to show people that you really genuinely have pride in what you’re doing and that matters.

For us, we partner with people on each one of these projects. I love that. Every time you walk into the restaurant and you ask, who is the owner, the chef and the GM are going to be part of that team of owners.

You’re going to have that constant connection through the people in the space to ownership. I think that really matters and draws a connection between community. Being able to be a authentic and literal part of the community from the space to the people in it has been something that’s defined your career and approach to building these different spaces.

For the Love of Restaurants

The book, The Love of Restaurants, I remember you telling me about it four or five years ago at a one-on-one event. Why was now the right moment to share it with the world? Three years ago, when I really started to take it seriously, I lost two of my best friends in the same year. One to cancer, one to unnatural causes, unfortunately.

So sorry. Thank you. It motivated me to do something really difficult and to do it in their honor.

I did always feel like there was a gap in the book market of just a book that you could pick up if you were waiting tables or cooking or managing or being a chef and find a path that shows you what it means to become an owner of a restaurant. You’re going to touch in real estate and you’re going to touch in permitting and you’re going to touch the city and all these things that you won’t necessarily learn in your day-to-day managing a restaurant even as a general manager. That’s the information I wanted to really share and I wanted to do it in a way that restaurant people could read and find enjoyable.

Rule One: Trust Your Gut

I’m so happy that the era of gatekeeping is done and I’m seeing it more and more across different creative industries, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for opening a neighborhood restaurant. Anyone’s ever walked into a hot restaurant on a Friday night, you immediately feel the energy the second you walk through the door. What’s harder than that is walking into that same space months, if not years, before a big night can happen, but it ties directly into your rule number one.

Rule number one is you do have to have this feeling in your gut. There has to be a natural attraction to what it is you’re going to do. Considering you’re committing years of your life to this, and I always think work in years and live in the present, try to enjoy every moment, but know that if you’re going to do big things, it’s going to take amounts of time and so be patient with yourself.

The first feeling is do you truly love it? When you look at that space, do you envision a restaurant there and can you play in your mind how people are going to interact with it? You need to be able to fully visualize whatever restaurant in your head is there in that physical space and how people will truly react to it and be as honest with yourself as one can be when talking about your own emotions. That honesty and having that trust with your own emotions is key because at some point you are the one who knows what you’re really going to like, but to build any business in anything, especially a restaurant, you do need to have good partnerships and having a good relationship with this person is your rule number two. Landlord is your first business partner in these deals a lot of the time.

Rule Two: Your Landlord Is Your First Business Partner

Big time. In order to raise money, Holly, my partner since 2014, we had to put in money at least to get the lease assigned. Then we could prove to people that we were serious and that we could then go out and raise capital against it.

First person to convince that you’re serious is a landlord. In our experience, you really want to like that person as much as you can. That is a real relationship that will be ongoing.

It will be a very serious relationship. If you’re going through things like the fires or COVID or all the stuff we’ve done for years, that’s the person you’re going to be turning to and working with, but no guests can show up. The only person you can really try to figure shit out with is your landlord.

Rule Three: Choose the Right Partners

You being on the front lines with your landlord and being able to take on the outwardly problems for your team is really important, but to run the restaurant day to day, you got to look inside the four walls and put together these types of people, which are rule number three. Partners, I don’t think I would ever do a restaurant without knowing that there was going to be a number of extra people there to partner with me and to help carry that person. People say it’s like a marathon, but marathons have a start and finish and restaurants don’t end, especially if you’re doing well.

I won’t even consider a project unless we can really visualize who those people are going to be. It’s at least a chef and at least a general manager and not only them running that place and being part of that community, but also working with each other. A lot of our partners who’ve now developed into great friends didn’t necessarily know each other before.

Some of the magic of what I think we’ve been able to do over the years is find like-minded people who often have really different backgrounds, but you just think will be great together. And if it turns out to be true, Mike and Melissa from Barra Santos didn’t know each other. That’s crazy.

Their friendship is so real and genuine. It’s the reason why that restaurant feels the way it does. You make friends fast when you’re working in the trenches to say.

When you’re cramming in 10, 12, 14 hour days, those friendships and those relationships really develop. Even when you have great relationships, even if you have a good landlord, even if you have a space you love, you still need runway. And without this resource, that’s not going to happen.

Rule Four: You Need Enough Money

What’s your rule number four? You need enough money. The M word. Restaurants are very expensive.

Every locale is different. And so I was very careful in the book to never name dollar amounts. Doing a restaurant in all different municipalities across the country is going to cost very different amounts.

But that doesn’t mean that that amount isn’t a lot of money in each one of those municipalities. I don’t think they’re ever really affordable. It’s going to be expensive to whomever’s doing it in whatever community they’re doing it from.

There is a reality to this where some restaurants don’t open. They dig in and they’re not able to get to the opening day. And that is maybe the greatest tragedy I’ve witnessed in my many years doing this.

A hundred percent. They’ve got a big dream and they put in real money, especially their own money, and they don’t get a chance to show anything. You need enough capital to do what it is that you want to do.

And you want to have a plan of how you’re going to get that money back out. A lot of the times people can have a dream. People want to be something that maybe they’re not.

I would always give advice to chefs who wanted to get in TV. You wouldn’t open up a restaurant that isn’t an extension of who you are. So why would you do that for a TV show? Your fifth and final rule follows this advice when you’re looking at opening up a restaurant and creating the space that you want.

Rule Five: Deliver What You Promise

What’s your rule number five? You have to be able to deliver what you promise. Yeah. You need to be able to execute what it is you’re going to tell people you’re going to execute.

If you put up a sign on your front door that says shitty pizza, cheap beer in the game, you’ll do great. 99 cent slices crushes in New York. Yeah.

Slices are honest and honesty sells. Deliver value and deliver what you were saying you will is I think very refreshing for people. And restaurants are expensive.

So there’s no getting around that either, which means being honest with yourself about who you are, what your team is, what the physical capacity is of your actual kitchen and your bar, and how many people you’re going to be serving realistically. And once you can tell that many people with real certainty, I know I can do this, you’ll do well. Because I think that same place with the sign that says shitty pizza and cheap beer, if it says great pizza and craft beer, and then you go in and it’s shitty beer and shitty pizza, that will fail.

Closing

You can just tell people what it is you’re about and then really nail it. I do think that’s one of the absolute keys. Thank you for sharing the keys.

It’s great for anyone who’s always wanted to just understand the machinations of opening a restaurant. And for people who actually want to do it themselves, if those types of people want to get the book, or people are just interested in peeking behind the curtain, where can they see what you’re up to with your restaurants? Books should be available everywhere. Come by any of the last restaurants, we’ll have books there too.

Go independent, shop at Now Serving, shop at your local bookstore, shop for books, read books. That’s my best message. Learn stuff that doesn’t have an intermediary and that’s not on the internet.

If there’s one thing I’ve been doing more of this summer, it’s been reading books. Adam, congratulations. I can’t wait to swing in and have a bite with you.

Thanks, Darin. Appreciate you, man.

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Mackenzie Hoffman, co-owner and operator of Stir Crazy, joins me to share her Five Rules for Creating a Restaurant that Feels Timeless. We talk about welcoming solo diners, staying earnest, and maintaining your principles without compromise. She explains why restaurants should avoid chasing trends, remain grounded in their values, and become genuine friends to the people and businesses around them. It is a conversation about creating a sense of place—one that feels deeply connected to its neighborhood while offering guests an escape from the world outside. Together, her rules offer a thoughtful blueprint for building a restaurant that does more than serve great food—it creates a feeling people want to return to again and again.

After nearly twenty-five years of covering and working with restaurants, I have seen that the places that last—both by keeping their doors open and finding a permanent place in people’s hearts—are the ones that embrace their communities. They know their neighbors, welcome regulars and first-timers with the same generosity, and become part of the rhythm of local life. A truly timeless restaurant does not impose itself on a neighborhood or chase whatever is popular in the moment. It listens, contributes, and slowly becomes a place people cannot imagine the neighborhood without.

Photo by Shelby Moore

INTRODUCTION

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I sit down with Mackenzie Hoffman, co-owner and operator of Stir Crazy and a fixture in the LA food scene. She is here to share her five rules for creating a restaurant that feels timeless. She talks about the importance of tailoring each guest’s experience, especially when it comes to solo diners, the tips and tricks of staying earnest, and how to maintain your principles without compromise. It’s a great conversation for anyone who’s looking to open a place that can embed itself into the community or for anyone who’s been open for a few years and is looking to become an even bigger part of the neighborhood. So let’s get into the rules here on HRN.

BACKGROUND

Mackenzie, always a pleasure to see you. Thank you for taking the time out of your busy day at Stir Crazy to sit down for the show.

Incredibly honored to be here, Darin. Thank you so much for having me.

My absolute pleasure. You literally went to school for food studies and nutrition, something that is rare in the restaurant world. What unique perspective do you feel it gave you in regards to hospitality?

BY THE BOOKS

The best way to describe the program was comprehensive. There was a culinary portion to it, there was a microbiology portion to it, food in the arts, food writing, a little business piece, accounting and whatnot. So it really gave me a comprehensive view of food, food systems, restaurants. And then being in New York City was incredible because just the access to being able to study something during the day and then go to my job or go out to eat, grab lunch somewhere. It was awesome.

You were in New York at an incredible inflection point in the restaurant scene and you got to work with some of the great names of that time, Four Horsemen, Union Square Hospitality, Major Food Group. What did you learn from working in New York and Brooklyn restaurants that you still practice today?

IN NEW YORK

I get goosebumps thinking about it because 10, 15 years ago, we were trying to get this craft to catch on. Now, it’s just porn. People can’t get enough of it. Within the past 15 years of seeing restaurants grow and evolve, not just in our industry, but how they affect the world at large. It’s a global industry. The diaspora of all these other ideas and flavors, I feel like we won despite all the adversity, not just happening in localized from city to city and city, but also in the industry at large. I do think that this is a long game and I think that we’re going to win.

You’ve been in the industry through incredible adversity like COVID, which affected the restaurant that you moved out to LA for, Onda, but you managed to stay in the game and eventually open up Stir Crazy. How did you take everything that you’d learned and put it into your own place?

MAKING IT MY OWN

I was fortunate enough to be part of restaurants in multiple different cities and seeing some really, really incredible people, professionals with their own long histories. It was almost like an anthropological view of a lot of different ways to do stuff, not just the how to do it and the what to do, but also why it was being done. I really got to see all the options in front of me and then take a look at my internal world and what my values were to shape that into a very personal perspective.

RULE ONE: WELCOME SOLO GUESTS

I love how you’ve taken your experiences, your studies, what you’ve learned from other people and put it into this unique restaurant, especially for LA, which is why I’m so excited for you to be sharing your five rules for creating a restaurant that feels timeless. For all the restaurants that I love, you can easily feel that hospitality is at the center of what they do. It’s not just about the big groups that come there for the special moments like birthdays and anniversaries. It’s for the people who just want to be out in the world, have a dinner, enjoy themselves, and this makes up your rule number one.

My rule number one is welcome solo guests. Yes.

To me, it’s a no-brainer and it also speaks about how creating a restaurant that feels timeless honors your neighborhood too. I always try to find ways to welcome and treasure guest experiences that are varied. Looking for those solo guests, such a great flag when they bring a book and feel comfortable to just linger and read.

Number one. Yeah. The varied turn times also include bookending other experiences, dropping in for a pre-dinner bottle of wine before you have omakase or even finishing your night with us with a nightcap or even dessert after you went somewhere else. Not every experience that we offer is replicatable. Everyone is unique. The fact that guests can feel comfortable walking in is incredible. We have a 33% return guest rate. That’s amazing. Which in LA is mind-boggling. Month after month after month, I’m like, did I refresh the page? The number is the same.

RULE TWO: STAY EARNEST

When you are that welcoming to guests, when people keep returning, a lot of it radiates from staying sincere, having this open arms policy, and really catering to what people want, which now that you’ve been over three years is not the easiest thing to do. But your rule number two talks about the importance of this in creating a restaurant that feels timeless.

Number two, stay earnest. So hard.

There’s a couple of different tongs in my fork of earnesty. Sure. It’s a good reminder that to both your guests and yourself and your staff that food, wine, service, hospitality, they’re crafts. You’re allowed to be a nerd. You’re allowed to make this your career. You’re allowed to invest in yourself. That pride and that joy and that confidence is going to be contagious. And then ultimately, if you continue that with the way that you teach and the way that you serve and the way that you host and have gratitude while doing it, it’s a really, really great feedback loop.

That is the importance of earnesty.

RULE THREE: AVOID TRENDS. KEEP THINGS ANALOG.

Being earnest from the start and knowing who you are allows you to put your best foot forward when And when Stir Crazy opened, I can say it. It was one of the most talked about and hottest restaurants for all of the right reasons. By not chasing this, it has allowed you to stay consistently well-respected and busy as your doors have been opened. What’s your rule number three?

Rule number three is avoid trends.

Keep things analog.

This is my rule for the non-capitalist capitalist in me. You have to have a North Star. The big word here is intention. Yes, we were hot and cool and vibey when we opened, but I would say that the way that I approach growth, it’s a slow burn. It’s like embers in the fire. It’s really making sure that you’re stoking your heat and making sure that you’re giving yourself grace to fail sometimes and make wrong decisions and then always learn from them. Restaurants should always be a feeling. They should not be any bigger than one person inside them. You’re always going to harness something timeless if you’re reaching towards a feeling.

Then the keeping things analog, this is just to not so much think forward in time, but also backwards in time. At Stir Crazy, we don’t have a lot of screens. We don’t have a phone. We don’t have a website. It’s almost as if time collapses on itself. Yes, we’ve been around for three years, but I hope that someone can enter our doors like a threshold to a portal and be transported. The transportative nature of Stir Crazy is what I find to feel timeless as well.

RULE FOUR: BEFRIEND YOUR NEIGHBORS

This ability to feel timeless, welcoming the community really is a key to keeping your doors open. By ingratiating yourself to these people, it’ll allow you to do so for years to come. What’s your rule number four?

Rule number four, befriend your neighbors. So important.

Restaurants need to understand that they have a sense of place. We have terroir. We don’t have to impose ourselves on the neighborhood and scream louder. We can just be more intentional in the things that we say and the things that we do. Don’t operate on an island. Get to know the people on either sides of you, your businesses. They probably have something to teach you, whether it be something about that crack in the sidewalk, something about that crosswalk. A timeless restaurant is not an imposition on the neighborhood. It is a seamless character that befriends a whole cast of people.

RULE FIVE: MAINTAIN YOUR PRINCIPLES WITHOUT COMPROMISE

Being able to truly become a part of the neighborhood means that you have to be there for a good length of time and the business is going to go up and down. Opportunities are going to be presented to you that might seem good in the moment, but you know in the long run won’t make the most sense. Your fifth and final rule talks about sticking to this to allow you to keep running the type of restaurant that you want to have out in the world. What’s your rule number five?

My rule number five is maintain your principles without compromise.

The other big I word that goes along with intention is integrity. You don’t always just have to have integrity to others. You should also have integrity to yourself. Knowing to not bite off more than you can chew. Knowing that no is probably the hardest thing to say, but it’s such an important lesson to learn how and why and when to say no.

Your moral compass or your north star in your business. Learning when, how, and most importantly why you do things and why you execute the way that you do, why you host the way that you do. That allows you to execute seamlessly with confidence.

CLOSING

Well, you can feel that confidence every time you walk through the doors at Stir Crazy. Mackenzie, congratulations on everything. If people want to swing by because they cannot make a reservation through a phone call, some people chagrin, where can they go? How can they see what you guys are up to?

Come visit us at 6903 Melrose Avenue on the corner of Orange, smack dab in the middle of Los Angeles. We also take reservations by email and currently by resi.

I’m so excited for everything that you’ve built and I can’t wait to swing back in for a glass of wine and some small fishes. Thank you.

I’m honored to keep doing it. I hope to see you soon.

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Greg's Five Rules for Getting Your Life Back on Track

Greg Baxtrom is the chef and owner of 5 Acres in Rockefeller Center and the author of Nothing Matters but Delicious: A Radically Honest Cookbook about food, alcoholism, recovery, and rebuilding a life. In this deeply personal conversation, Greg shares his Five Rules for Getting Your Life Back on Track. Together, we talk about the long road to sobriety, the daily work of becoming reliable again, and how cooking helped him begin accumulating the days that eventually became a new life.

These conversations are important because no one should have to struggle alone. Hearing Greg speak so openly about his lowest moments, the people who helped him, and the work he continues to do offers more than hope—it reveals a path forward. Recovery does not happen all at once, and it does not always move in a straight line. Sometimes it begins with telling the truth, asking for help, or simply doing the one thing you said you would do that day. Wherever you are in that process, be patient and kind to yourself. You are not alone, and change is possible.

Introduction

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I’m chatting with Greg Baxtrom, the chef and owner at Five Acres in Rockefeller Center, and the author of Nothing Matters but Delicious, a radically honest cookbook, out now on 10 Speed Press. He’s here to share his five rules for getting your life back on track. He talks about the importance of telling the truth, the necessity of building a routine you can actually keep, and that by being patient and kind to yourself is the key to real change. This conversation, along with his cookbook, are deep explorations of Greg’s struggle with alcoholism, his journey through recovery, and how he’s put his life back together. It is a great conversation for anyone who is going through similar struggles or for anyone looking for a insight to understand those who are. So let’s get into the rules here on HRN. Greg, so good to see you.

Opening

Congratulations on the book and Five Acres. Thanks for making time for the show. Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. I love the book and it starts off with a very powerful introduction where you talk about living your life in two unequal parts. How much has the concept of balance played a part in your life? I mean, there was none until recently. Sure. Even now, I’m not that great at it. I mean, I’m pretty great at being sober. I don’t have near misses and stuff, but I’m probably on day 55 straight of no days off. Right. Still a work in progress. I take things like going to bed at a specific time. I try to be in bed by 10 o’clock every day. It’s pretty good. I try to wake up and have a coffee. I still have some non-negotiables, but there are ones that get tossed out the window still. I’ll go through a phase of like, now I’m vegan and I’m starting off with a five-day fast and I’m signing up for my trainer.

Yeah. So that lasts like four days. And right now I haven’t really been going to the gym because I’ve been coming here every day to just kind of make this new thing land well and represent what we try to do. Yeah. You know, I prioritize my family more. I also just go to Chicago more. I wouldn’t even consider going for a holiday in the past. And now I try to go home for birthdays. I prioritize that a little bit more. A cookbook like yours, nothing matters but delicious, usually comes out as a celebratory, usually four or five-year mark of a restaurant, which was Olmstead. You closed the restaurant last year. The book just came out and a lot of what delayed the book was life happening around it. How do you feel about its release now? It was hard for me to even write the book in the first place. I eventually became acquainted and friendly with Joshua David Stein. And I had other avenues to go down.

There were big publishers that wanted a great big Olmstead book. They would make it as beautiful as I wanted and as cheffy as I wanted. Yeah. I was basically told it wouldn’t sell but it would look pretty. Sure. As vain and egotistical as I am to have a nice pretty book, I really didn’t want to do something that from the get-go wouldn’t be even attempt to be successful. I’m dyslexic and I have ADHD. It took Josh to literally lay on my couch while I just talked and cooked and would just type as I was doing stuff. Yeah. I wanted it to be accessible. Yes, there’s some Olmstead stuff in there. A lot of the recipes are when I went to rehab the second time because the first time it didn’t really take. There was no getting another shot. I woke up at eight. I walked my dog, got my juice.

Right. I made my coffee and I went to the farmer’s market as often as I could to make just enough food for myself that night. I was just accumulating days. So a lot of the recipes in the book are just what I cooked to get to 90 days. Many people would not open a cookbook so honestly with tales of their own addictions and their lows battling alcoholism, let alone shape the recipes and stories within these pages. Why did you want this to be a fundamental of the book which you call a radically honest cookbook? I don’t want bipolar sober chef on my tombstone. I don’t want to be remembered for that. I dedicated 20-25 years to doing this thing. I still love it, but I unraveled.

I wanted to be on solid ground again through instructions from my doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists. I had been documenting my time in rehab the first time and then the second time. I have a first-hand 20-30 page document of basically what it was like getting sober that I’ve never really done anything with and I just took a chunk of it out and I decided to put that into the book. I wanted to move on. I’m not afraid of doing the work of getting sober, becoming reliable again. I’m all for that. I just want to set the tone again. Hopefully, I can get back to, okay, Greg’s back to being reliable and talented. The fact that you are willing to put in the work, the fact that you have the opportunity to do so, the fact that you’ve been so honest about it makes me so excited for you to share your five rules for getting your life back on track.

Rule One: Tell the Truth

In the introduction, you lean into what it was like to go home into Chicago, to having to start lying about what you were doing with your life and how you’re spending your time. Yeah. Your first rule talks about the importance of moving in the other direction. What’s your rule number one? You gotta just tell the truth. At that point, I knew I was a mess and I knew I was a drunk and I was miserable and lonely and sad and suicidal, but no one really knew that. People just saw that I was drinking more. Yeah. I would hide in the employee bathroom and drink. I felt like I was still involved in there and around the people that I liked and admired and so when I went to Chicago, I think my parents just sort of and my family assumed I was stressed and drinking. Eventually, I got a DUI and my father came and picked me up. I jumped out of the moving car. Wow.

I’m named after my dad’s brother who got hit by a drunk driver. Yeah. I was so uncomfortable and miserable. Sure. The next day, my sister finds me and she’s like, look, I don’t think this is just run-of-the-mill hereditary alcoholism. I think there’s something else there. I think you should go to the hospital, not just straight to rehab again. That was the first time that I felt hope. I was miserable. I didn’t want to be this way. I knew there was a problem from the get-go and I didn’t want it. That doctor and a team of people were like, you’re on all the wrong medication. Basically, we believe you’re bipolar and we need to put you on all new medication. Yeah. From there, once I was on all the new medication, then I was transferred to a different type of rehab.

The property was so big, they didn’t even care if you left to go camping for a couple of days because you weren’t going to go anywhere. There was just thousands of acres. I got to be out in nature while accumulating those first couple of days being sober. With that opening up, there was a woman in my life who really took care of me, who happened to be a nurse. Then, there was also my sister who’s a doctor. Without them, for sure, I would not be here right now.

Rule Two: Accept That You Don’t Have All the Answers

Going through all of that, having to look inwards sometimes can be a very hard awakening, but it does lead you to accept that you don’t have this, which is your rule number two. My rule number two is to accept that you don’t have all the answers. I am a reliable person when I’m not a drunk. My intentions are good. In the very beginning, you’re like, you just need to be 30 days sober, and then you’ll be able to recalibrate and go back to a beer a day. Eventually, you break down. You go, okay, it’s three months, and then it’s six months, and then it’s a year. It’s a long time before you go, okay, fine. I get it. I won’t be able to drink again. I went to Smart Recovery, Wellbriety, NA, AA. I just wanted to be fixed, and I was willing to do it.

Rule Three: Get Professional Help

The more you can be honest and open up, some people, how they’re communicating to you is going to click. Once you’ve accepted that you don’t have all the answers and you start listening to other people in your life and build a support system, that’s really important on a personal level. At the end of the day, your rule number three talks about looking to these other types of people for guidance. What’s your third rule? Getting professional help. The people in my life tried their best. Everybody was for me going to AA meetings, for me getting a psychiatrist, but the sadness in me was not going away, though. I didn’t want to exist anymore. It required consistent medical observation. Even when you’re opening up about having a drinking problem or being a little depressed, I don’t want my parents to know that. Sure. But once there was a medical team, many doctors and psychiatrists and therapy, those feelings go away. What sucks is that even after being sober for three years and medicated, I don’t really keep track of that.

I think it’s going on six years now. Not that long ago, I had to go back to the hospital for having some pretty dark thoughts, and I was in the hospital for two weeks. I’m sorry.

Rule Four: Build a Routine

There’s a little bit of rolling with the punches even when you get the professional help. A lot of the times when you’re staring down big life changes, knowing that everything is going to be different, it can be overwhelming, but your rule number four talks about how gradual steps make the biggest changes. What’s your fourth rule? Building a routine. One is just waking up around the same time, having good hygiene, brushing your teeth, taking a shower, making a coffee. For me, I would go to the farmer’s market or go to the grocery store, and I would buy enough just for the day so that way I had something to do the next day. I signed back up for guitar lessons. I could still only play like two songs. Really tried to invest in myself. After I had accumulated 90 days of sobriety, then it was about building a routine so that way the people in my life saw that I wasn’t fragile because everybody is thinking you’re very fragile.

Sure. Half the people in my life are like, you’re going to need to change careers. How will you go into a restaurant that you own or that you work at that has liquor on a shelf? New approaches, new routines. You’re just talking to the wrong person if you’re saying just change professions. It is a non-negotiable. I remember I did a commercial with Gordon Ramsay, and it was nine o’clock in the morning, and I was drinking cooking brandy in the basement to take the edge off. The routine part of it at the restaurant was that if I was in the basement, in that area where the brandy was, that people didn’t need to start looking at the cameras or send somebody over there. Of course. I just needed to be present.

Maybe I didn’t need to do 14-hour days right away, just being reliable for four hours or five hours. I do have the benefit of I own the restaurant. Plus, we were in COVID, so we were selling barbecue in the backyard while running a soup kitchen on one side, while running a high-end bakery on the other side, while doing a pop-up for black chefs across the street. When I was a drunk, I liked duck, and I would butcher the duck. I started to become the guy where I would tell the team, I got the duck today, and I would take it out. Then I would just vanish, or I’d be in the bathroom, and then they would have to butcher it, or they would go put it away or something.

The routine was just if I said I was going to do something, I did it. Even if it was one thing, if it was mop the floor or clean up the garden or something, if I said I was going to do something, I had to do it. You’ve been so honest about your journey, the time it’s taken, 30 days, 90 days, years.

Rule Five: Be Patient With Yourself

Your fifth and final rule really does talk about being kind to yourself and allowing for this. What’s your rule number five? You got to be patient with yourself, with how people act around you. Fortunately, people gave me a lot of grace. Beautiful. My staff didn’t really leave. I had one guy that worked for me for six years. He had to help carry me out of the office and sneak me out the back door. He didn’t move on until everything was set, and I was good. Wow. I owe that guy everything, and he just helped consult with some drinks we were doing here. There are definitely some bridges burned, and I’ve tried to make attempts at rectifying the ones that I’m aware about, or the ones I have access to. Some people are there for it, and some people could care less. Yeah. I remember I was over a year sober, and I was on Channel 9 News for the Super Bowl. I posted that I was on it.

You know, the first comment is like, oh, this guy’s still slurring his words. He must still be a drunk. Huh. That sucked. I can only imagine. Maybe that guy moved to New York to work for me, and when I got there, I was a drunk. He didn’t like his experience. I was a disappointment. Right. What’s important to me is that I’m dependable and reliable. I try to be a nice guy. I’m not always. In my position, I would rather be dependable for everybody that they can rely on me, and that’s what I work on. Greg, deeply appreciate you sharing so much about your life. The book, Nothing Matters But Delicious, is out now.

Closing

If people want to get it, if people want to check out Five Acres, if people want to see what you have going on, where can they go? If you come to Five Acres, and you buy the book, it comes with a little spice jar, so that’s fancy. You can order it through Kitchen Arts and Letters or Amazon or a bunch of publishers. I know Barnes and Nobles is carrying it. It’s on our website. There’s links there if that helps. Thanks so much for taking the time. Thanks so much for sharing so much. I can’t wait to swing back into New York and pop up to Rockefeller Center. Let me know. Give me a heads up.

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Ji Hye's Five Rules for How to Make a Delicious Korean Meal at Home

For many home cooks, Korean food is something they love to eat but feel intimidated to make. In this episode, Ji Hye Kim, the chef, owner, and managing partner of Miss Kim and Little Kim in Ann Arbor, shares her Five Rules How to Make a Delicious Korean Meal at Home. She talks about making the cooking feel approachable without stripping away what makes it special. From building a thoughtful pantry to understanding the role of banchan, the stories behind iconic dishes, and ultimately finding the confidence to make them your own, Ji Hye offers a roadmap that is as practical as it is inspiring. Whether you’re making your first batch of tteokbokki or simply looking to bring new flavors into your kitchen, these are lessons that will stay with you long after dinner is over.

I love this episode because it reminds me that learning something new almost always begins with a little uncertainty. Picking up an unfamiliar cuisine asks you to invest your time, your curiosity, and yes, a little money as you stock a new pantry or hunt down ingredients you’ve never used before. But the return on that investment lasts a lifetime. Once you understand the flavors, the techniques, and the stories behind a cuisine, they become part of the way you cook, the way you think, and the way you see the world. Every new dish becomes another connection to another culture, and every meal you make afterward is a little richer because you were willing to take that first step.

Five Rules for the Good Life with Ji Hye Kim

How to Make a Delicious Korean Meal at Home

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I’m in Ann Arbor, Michigan, chatting with Ji Hye Kim, who is the chef, owner, and managing partner of Miss Kim and Little Kim.

She’s here to share her five rules for how to make a delicious Korean meal at home.

She talks about the importance of putting together an essential Korean ingredient pantry, that understanding the essence of a dish elevates what you want to make, and with enough practice, you can make any Korean dish your own.

It is a great conversation for anyone who’s wanted to cook more Korean food at home or has been enticed to introduce new flavors to their cooking at large.

So let’s get into the rules here on HRN.

Growing Up in Seoul

Ji Hye, so nice to meet you all the way from Ann Arbor.

I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me for the show.

I am so excited to be here.

Thanks for having me.

You were born and raised in Seoul.

What are some of the dishes from your childhood that still ground you today?

Oh my god, so many because my mom was the best cook in the family and that reputation has not changed even now.

Even with your own restaurant?

No, absolutely not.

I cannot take the title from her.

She is still the absolutely the best and she cooked everything from scratch.

But what I remember is tteokbokki.

It’s the quintessential Korean street food.

My mom forbade me from eating it because she called it a delinquent food which made me want it more.

Of course.

I remember sneaking out milk boxes and trading it with the street vendor and eating it behind my mom’s back and then coming home for a full Korean meal.

That really stayed with me because it was the first independent decision I made about the food.

I now have three or four different kinds of tteokbokki on rotation at my restaurant at Miss Kim at any given moment.

Those original food memories and adventures always stick with you.

Yeah.

You wound up leaving Seoul and eventually landing in Ann Arbor, getting into the food world through Zingerman’s.

Correct.

What surprised you the most about the culinary offerings of the Midwest?

The amazing array of vegetables.

It’s not necessarily the same vegetables that I would have used if I lived in There are enough similarities and it actually pushes you to be more creative.

Taking what my mother and my ancestors gave me and adapt that with my neighbor farmer’s beets or Jerusalem artichoke or lots of corn.

And that’s actually been really fun marrying that together.

You opened up your first restaurant Miss Kim in 2016 in partnership with Zingerman’s.

How did you want to bring your two worlds together from what you grew up eating with in Seoul and what you discovered in the farms of the Midwest?

I had an office job after graduating.

I just found it incredibly not inspiring.

Sure.

I took a huge pay cut on nothing but a gut feeling.

I started working for Zingerman’s and it’s known for Jewish Reuben sandwiches.

Yes.

What I loved was the cheese I told everybody I got cheese for a living.

It really stayed with me because I would meet a Basque cheese maker who had me taste their one cheese that’s made in different season or age different month.

Really learn about traditional food making and it started having me really wonder what it would be like if I dug in the same way with Korean food.

Really connected with artisans or gave that much thought to the dishes origin story.

That’s how I started looking at Korean food more professionally than just a casual eater.

From what my parents gave me.

From there it slowly morphed into a desire to bring my Korean upbringing and putting roots in Midwestern soil and bring my Korean food to Ann Arbor.

There were Korean food in Ann Arbor before.

I love that you wanted to bring your approach to Korean food to Ann Arbor both in the restaurant and educating people about their favorite dishes and what goes into it which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules on how to make a delicious Korean meal at home.

Yeah.

Rule #1: Build a Great Korean Pantry

A lot of the times when you get into a new cultures culinary practices you start by trying to substitute what you already have at home with the ingredients that are listed in the recipe.

Absolutely.

And while you might not want to go out and replace everything it is important that you do get a good foundation which ties directly into your rule number one.

You have to rely on a great basic pantry items for Korean food.

Those are soy sauces, doenjang which is soy paste, gochujang which is chili paste.

Those three sauces are often known as Korean mother sauces.

Gochugaru which is chili flakes, sesame seed, and sesame oil.

Those are the must-haves that’s difficult to substitute.

Once you get kind of used to you can level up and bring in Korean fish sauces or fermented shrimp or fermented plum syrup, perilla oil, perilla seeds.

But you need to at least have the basic pantries that will get you through majority of dishes that you want to try if you’re a first-time Korean food maker.

Rule #2: Find the Korean Equivalent

If you are making Korean food for the first time you could get very intimidated by looking at all these dishes and thinking that you have no reference point.

But when you dig down you start to see that many dishes from Korea have similar counterparts in America.

Understanding that relationship makes up your rule number two.

It’s the details that makes us different but we eat really similarly if you look at the bigger picture.

Korean food have kalguksu which means knife cut noodles.

Italians have tali-tali which is cut noodles.

If you’re really comfortable grilling start with Korean barbecue.

If you are comfortable with braising there is galbijjim or whole array of Korean stews that you can go with.

Don’t start with 50 heads of napa cabbage and into a gigantic batch of napa kimchi because even if you succeed you still cannot make a whole meal out of just kimchi anyway.

Rule #3: Understand the Korean Table

When cooking Korean food there are some fundamentals to each of the dish when it comes to flavor and how you approach them.

Every culture has this.

Korean food has its own unique approach as well which is your rule number three.

You have to understand how Korean table works.

A typical Korean table would include rice.

Some main dishes like galbi which would be a meat-based dish or soups and stews.

The most important thing that rounds everything out is an array of banchan.

Banchan is often translated as side dish but it’s so much more.

So much more.

It’s the best.

I can just make a meal out of banchan and rice even.

Same.

Those are oftentimes many different kind of kimchi, many kind of pickle, fried egg or a little fried fish or many different kinds.

You cannot just have rice and beef because that’s off balance for a Korean table.

You need to have some sort of acidity.

Because Korean table is almost set up like choose your own adventure with banchan and has so much faith in the eater.

The eater decides I’m going to eat a little rice with the lettuce wrap and the sauce then I’m definitely going to have kimchi because kimchi is a must-have.

If you don’t want to make 12 different kind of banchan and a gigantic Korean You just need to remember not to skip acidity and not to skip some fresh crunch.

Rule #4: Understand the Dish

Knowing the rules of the flavor is one thing but all these dishes take on a deeper meaning when you understand their origins which makes up your rule number four.

You have to understand the dish.

You have to understand the story behind the dish and how it has evolved.

Yeah.

That will actually make things more tasty.

Yeah.

It would make it more tasty for you to understand that K-pop demon hunters didn’t create tteokbokki.

Tteokbokki was an existing dish that has a long history but it became a quintessential street food only in the 60s.

If you know that there’s more intrigue to the dish and you will understand the soul of the dish better.

More practical advice.

You have the recipe.

It’s not something you cooked before.

Read it from top to bottom at least once.

You follow the recipe just as it’s written at least once before you start going off of fusioning and I think that would be a good starting point.

Rule #5: Put Your Own Stamp on It

Once you follow the recipe a couple of times, really following it to a T, you can really start to see how you can add variations and how to make it your own.

Your fifth and final rule talks about how getting to know a dish really well allows you to adjust for your personal preferences.

What’s your rule number five?

My rule number five is that once you understood the essence of the dish and you know what the current state of the dish is or how it’s traditionally done, put your own stamp on it.

That’s how it has been in Korea by my ancestors too.

I use the example of tteokbokki over and over.

It used to be a soy sauce based dish with lots of different ingredients.

It was a fancy dish from 18th century and then it evolves to become the cheapest and most quintessential street food with gochujang and sweet and spicy flavor only after 1960s.

Food in Korea doesn’t stay static so you don’t have to feel obligated to keep it static.

What’s more important is that you embrace the recipes, really love it, and then put it in your daily rotation and actually cook and enjoy it.

It’s not supposed to be dissertation on history.

Food should be enjoyed.

There’s over 200 types of documented kimchi in Korea.

Incredible.

We don’t know what aunties are doing in the countryside.

There have been said there are as many types of kimchi as there are mothers in Korea, right?

It’s because those mothers are using what’s available in season, what’s available locally, and making that into kimchi.

The bibimbap that you get in a seaside town will be different than the bibimbap you get in a mountainside town.

So whether you’re in Michigan or Minnesota or California, you are doing what my ancestors have done.

If you go to a local farmer’s market, use vegetables in season, then put in your own refund.

You have earned it because you’ve understood the essence of dish from point number four.

Closing

Ji Hye, congratulations on everything.

If people want to visit Miss Kim or follow along with what you’re cooking, where can they go?

You can find us on Instagram, MissKimAnnArbor, or on the website, MissKimAnnArbor.com.

Come on by in Kerrytown area in Ann Arbor if you’re here for U of M football or just to visit Ann Arbor.

I would love to feed you.

I can’t think of a better fall than some football and some snacks from you.

Swing by, say hello, we’ll eat some Korean fried chicken and drink some soju.

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Breanne's Five Rules for Making Sandwiches

This week I’m joined by Breanne Kostyk, the co-owner and head baker of Flour Moon Bagels in New Orleans, to talk about her Five Rules for Making Sandwiches. From choosing great bread and never settling for a dry sandwich to building texture, height, and balance into every bite, Breanne breaks down what separates a forgettable lunch from one you’ll think about for the rest of the day. Whether you’re packing a picnic, heading to the beach, or just making lunch at home, this conversation is a reminder that even the simplest foods deserve care and attention.

I’ve always believed there’s an art to making a great sandwich. It isn’t just about stacking ingredients between two slices of bread—it’s about creating something that feels complete. Every choice matters: the bread, the crunch, the sauce, the balance of salt, acid, fat, and freshness. A great sandwich can be comforting, nostalgic, and deeply satisfying all at once. Breanne approaches sandwiches with the same level of craft that a chef brings to a composed plate, and I love that philosophy. It reminds us that everyday cooking is full of opportunities to make something thoughtful, generous, and memorable.

Introduction

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I’m down in the Big Easy talking shop with Breanne Kostyk, the co-owner and head baker of Flour Moon Bagels. She shares her five rules for making sandwiches. She talks about the importance of choosing good quality bread, how there is nothing worse than a dry sandwich, and that by building for height and balancing flavors, you’ll be able to craft the perfect sandwich anytime you step into the kitchen.

It’s a great conversation for the summertime. If you’re packing a picnic or out on the road and you want to bring your own food, there is nothing better than a homemade sandwich.

So let’s get into the rules here on HRN.

Breanne, it is so nice to meet you. Thank you for taking some time out of your busy baking schedule. Welcome to Five Rules.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Darin. I’m really excited to be here with you.

There is something so personal about a sandwich. Why does almost everyone have such a deep relationship with them?

Sandwiches are so nostalgic. They’re the first thing your mom packs in your lunchbox going to school, your summer vacations on the beach, and just having a sandwich packed in the cooler for you after a day of swimming. What I love about sandwiches is it’s everything within the bread. It’s the whole meal in one handheld bite.

New York is arguably America’s launching point for bagels and the bagel sandwich. What makes this form of bread such a perfect delivery system for a sando?

A bagel has that crunchy exterior and the chewiness is really something you can sink your teeth into, which is really satisfying. You can fill it with anything. Any possibilities—not just cream cheese and salmon—but we really take it to that lunch sandwich that you would like.

When you started Flour Moon Bagels in New Orleans, why did you want to bring the New York-inspired style to the city?

I grew up in Connecticut, I went to school in New York, and I ended up moving south after the recession. I’ve been there. I ended up in the South, so I really missed that bagel that I used to get right down the street from my campus.

I had been a fine dining pastry chef for ten years prior to starting Flour Moon Bagels. I worked for the Ace Hotel in New Orleans. There, I started experimenting with bagel recipes. Over the years, that recipe evolved. I just wanted to keep on improving it.

We had so many visitors from out of town, specifically New York, and they were just surprised that this hotel bagel was actually really good.

The fact that you have been able to develop a New York-style bagel that impresses New Yorkers is nothing short of incredible, which makes me so excited for you.

That dedication to perfecting that bagel style really shows your dedication to the craft and ties directly into your first rule.

Rule #1: Choose Good Quality Bread

What’s your rule number one?

Rule number one: choose good quality bread.

Pick something up from your local bakery. You want something super, super fresh. If you get something just at the grocery store, you don’t know how long ago that was made or how long it’s been sitting on the shelves.

I really love nice focaccia, something really hearty, rustic sourdough, bagels, or baguettes. Something that, when you bite into it, bounces back in your mouth. Something also with a nice crumb to it because then it’ll soak up everything—all that flavor in your sandwich.

Having great bread is the foundation of a great sandwich, but I can sometimes forgive bad bread and sometimes I can ignore less-than-quality turkey.

What I can’t excuse is a dry sandwich, which is a big part of your rule number two.

Rule #2: A Sauce Is Mandatory

Rule number two: a sauce is mandatory. Full stop. Nobody likes a dry sandwich.

Mayonnaise, aioli, mustards, olive oil—there are just so many possibilities that you can add to your sandwich to give it flavor and make it not dry.

You can get creative. You can do salsa verdes. I really like jams or mostardas, especially with really salty Italian meat. I think that’s one of my favorite go-to combos.

Love it.

That’s one of my formulas if I’m running specials: salty meat and something sweet and acidic. I just love that.

I would say one to two sauces are great, but once you hit three, your sandwich might get a little too wet.

Dry is a shonda. Soggy is a crime because that could have been prevented.

You talk about flavors that play off each other—salty and sweet—and this idea of mixing different types of elements in a sandwich is a great way to make a successful one.

That brings us to your third rule.

Rule #3: Add Texture

Rule number three: add textures to your sandwich.

You want crunchy, hearty greens. If you’re putting veggies on that sandwich, I recommend slicing them thick so they have a little bit of crunch.

I love anything pickled. Just your standard pickle. Pickled hot peppers are really delicious.

Then you can also get crunch with bacon.

We all are familiar with adding potato chips to a sandwich, which is pretty classic, but you can even think beyond the chips. Maybe it’s crispy shallots.

We recently ran a special that was a pork roulade, and we put crunchy chicharrones all crushed up on there. It just adds a little bit extra.

Once you’ve landed on the elements you want for your sandwich, understanding how to physically lay everything out is quite the art, which ties directly into your rule number four.

Rule #4: Add Height

Rule number four: add height to your sandwich. Make it visually appealing.

I have this theory that if I’ve eaten too much and I need to digest my food, I scroll Instagram and I look at pictures of food. It makes me think that I’m hungry.

You want to fold your meat and stack it so that visually it’s layered higher. Then stack it with some colorful items too. You don’t want just beige on beige. You don’t want just turkey and white cheese.

Add vegetables that have color to them. Color and height—you look at that, and that’s really appetizing to me.

Once you understand all the fundamentals—the bread, the sauces, the contrasting textures, the layering of the sandwich—you’ve really started to master everything that goes into making the perfect sandwich.

Your fifth and final rule deals with something that people actually forget, but this core fundamental is something you should never ignore when making the perfect sandwich.

Rule #5: Create a Balance of Flavors

What’s your rule number five?

Rule number five: create a balance of your flavors.

Yes—salt, fat, acid, umami, sometimes heat or sweet, maybe combining the heat and the sweet. A sandwich should really be a vessel to hit all of those notes that you crave and leave you wanting nothing more after you’ve eaten that sandwich.

Closing

Breanne, thank you so much for sharing your five rules for making sandwiches.

If people want to visit Flour Moon Bagels, learn more about what you’re making, or check out what I assume are daily sandwich specials posted to Instagram, where can they go? How can they see what you’re up to?

Yeah, you can visit us at @fllourmoonbagels on Instagram. If you’re in New Orleans—I know it’s not a po’boy, it’s not a beignet—but we’ve got some great bagels in New Orleans. If you’re down here, please stop and visit us.

Amazing. Well, I can’t wait to swing through New Orleans and grab a bagel the next time I’m in town.

All right, thank you.

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Trinity’s Five Rules for Eating Well on a Budget

This week I’m joined by Trinity Mouzon Wofford, the co-founder and CEO of Golde and author of Eating at Home: The Nourishing Practice of Everyday Cooking. Trinity shares her Five Rules for Eating Well on a Budget, from rethinking the farmer’s market and building a produce pantry at home, to embracing the bulk aisle, and making meals something to share. It’s a conversation that reminds us that cooking well isn’t about spending more, it’s about paying attention, building habits, and finding joy in the everyday rituals that nourish both ourselves and the people around us.

I’ve believed for a long time that money isn’t the best measure of abundance in the kitchen. Some of the most memorable meals I’ve ever shared were built from simple ingredients, thoughtful planning, and the desire to make sure everyone left the table feeling cared for. Trinity’s rules reinforce something I’ve come to appreciate over years of cooking and hosting: generosity isn’t about extravagance. It’s about effort, about taking the time to cook for someone else, pulling up another chair, stretching what’s in the pot just a little farther, and discovering that the richest meals are often the ones made with the greatest intention.

Introduction

Hello and welcome to five rules for the good life I’m your host Darin Bresnitz today I’m joined by Trinity Mouzon Wofford who is the co-founder and CEO of Golde and whose new cookbook eating at home the nourishing practice of everyday cooking is one of my favorite cookbooks of the season she’s here to share her five rules for eating well on a budget she talks about the importance of not side eyeing the farmers market that by building your own produce pantry will allow you to put affordable recipes and that by joining together around the table is not only a way to save money but will enrich your life overall it’s a fantastic conversation for anyone who’s looking to get more out of their dollars at the markets and to also support the local community at the same time so let’s get into the rules here on HRN

Trinity it is so nice to meet you thank you for coming to us all the way from hudson valley appreciate you making the time to be on the show thanks darren I’m excited to talk some rules yes you have had a long career as a writer what drew you into the food world specifically I think I’ve always identified romantically as being a writer but the core of a lot of my work has been on the entrepreneurial side building a brand sure the book came about I mean I’ve always been involved in this health and wellness world through Golde and so that edible side of it was there I was pregnant with my first kid I was in the depths of running my business and I wasn’t a professional chef but why did any of that stop you from running your first cookbook it almost did the woman who ended up being my agent I think that I came to her and said I really don’t think it’s a good time but funnily enough I trusted her faith in my vision rather than saying no or diving all the way in I kind of just kept taking the next step and the next step and I wouldn’t say it was a before you know it because the whole thing took four years of course before I knew it there was a book writing your first cookbook

Starting your own business getting started as a writer all of the early points of any of those endeavors notoriously do not pay well but that doesn’t mean you have to eat poorly right what do you remember of those early days and those early dishes that you cooked at home from that scrappy time in your life I was in my early 20s when I started my business I co-founded it with my now husband shout out we’re high school sweethearts so it’s been codependent for a really long time we didn’t have a lot of funds to go around I was at this time pulling out forty dollars a week in grocery budget sure I actually found that my dollars went a lot further when I skipped the supermarket and went straight to the union square farm where I could go direct to farmers that also helped to inform a more seasonal way of eating most of the time lunch was rice with a pickled red cabbage on top over and over again like it’s spring so there’s turnips a lot of it was this very simple food that was also deeply comforting deeply nourishing and pretty friendly to a tight budget

Just because you’re on a budget doesn’t mean you don’t have to eat well and that you don’t have stories to tell and that is very true in your first book eating at home the nourishing practice of everyday cooking given that it was a multi-year journey to write this and you had your business and your baby there was so much life to fit into this book how did you narrow down the stories and recipes you wanted to share the recipes are all mine and my husband issei’s home recipes beautiful so a lot of it was really issei and I writing down and collecting what our meals were on any given week the sunday pancakes or the lunches which are still usually rice with vegetables the first idea for the book was okay well we’re going to talk about how to eat well according to trinity founder of Golde right the first things that I was coming up with were eat more locally make a ritual of visiting your farmers markets etc and the response that I would get as I started to put those ideas together was this is very nice it’s a process it’s about chiseling the thing out of the stone right yes the response tended to be people are busy yep what can they do that’s a little bit more realistic I knew we were all busy and yet I think that’s really the reason why we need more home cooking than ever yes we are simultaneously living at a time where we’re so aware of meditation and exercise and all of these practices to be more we know that we’re stressed we’re going to therapy yes one of the things that has helped me the most in feeling more grounded in the moment is cooking sitting down to a meal is even grocery shopping with my family in a way that isn’t like let me get this over with

Seeing how you practice what you preach when it comes to cooking and living that life I am so excited for you to be sharing your five rules for eating well on a budget just because you don’t have a lot of money to spend doesn’t mean you can’t spend it smartly and support your local community

Rule #1: Don’t Side-Eye the Farmer’s Market

Which ties into your rule number one rule number one is don’t side eye the farmer’s market I have been on a tear with this when I was talking about the book I would say oh the farmer’s market and it was like oh the farmer’s market your basket your tote bag the farmer’s market trips people up because for the most part they get stuck on the strawberries yes they’re like oh my god 14 a pint I can’t afford to eat here this is ridiculous you’re missing the hard-working produce you’re messing the turnips you’re mixing the rutabagas you’re missing the kale the potatoes that stuff is not on average any more expensive than you’ll find at the supermarket so often we feel like the sky is falling and there’s nothing we can do except vote and pray but like one other thing that you could do hear me out on this is you can find small opportunities to funnel your dollars into more direct localized economies that does not have to mean all of a sudden going full barter it could just mean getting your potatoes from once you start buying this produce you will understand how much you can physically get for the money that you spend so much so that you might get overwhelmed by how much you’re bringing home but having

Rule #2: Build a Produce Pantry of Always-There Staples

Rule number two is build a produce pantry of always their staples one of the things that freaks people out the most about cooking from scratch is they buy some vegetables and then they open up their fridge and it’s 5 30 pm and everyone’s already hungry and they have no idea what to do with a cauliflower or how to combine it with whatever they’ve got sure you get better at that the more you cook but the secret to accelerating the pace is to just buy the yes there’s a lot of produce whether it’s leafy greens or it’s just things that store really well that are going to be available nearly year-round you can build out a habit of buying them again and again so you can sprinkle in the fun little seasonal things try something new but ideally when you’re opening up the fridge and trying to figure out what to cook you’re not staring down a whole bunch of stuff that you’ve never cooked before this idea of creating a familiar supermarket or pantry within your house does come with practice both in figuring out your preferences in what you eat and what you like to cook once you’ve discovered what works for you heading through this

Rule #3: Venture Into the Bulk Aisle

Section of any supermarket makes up your rule number three rule number three venture into the bulk aisle this took me a really long time interesting I am a fairly new convert to the bulk aisle most of what you’re paying for and I can say this with confidence because as an entrepreneur in the consumer product space it really is this way most of what you’re paying for when you buy a food product is packaging if you can bypass the cost of somebody siphoning off your almonds into a nice little packet and the cost of the packaging itself you can save a whole lot of money on your grocery bill so what I buy in bulk right now now are popping corn kernels and I make popcorn myself right there with you oh my god you don’t have to spend seven dollars on chips anymore cooking oils vinegars that great machine where they grind the peanut butter for you when you press the button that’s joyful instant whimsy you also organize things into your own jars etc and it makes it a lot neater and easier to have all of your stuff in the cabinet all these separate branded boxes and bags are so it’s like a nightmare and then I don’t want to go in there and I don’t want to cook and you’re heaving this great sigh trying to find your baking powder or what have you once you have a working kitchen and a working pantry you’ve organized it you know it’s in there you know what you like working then you got to get to the actual process of putting it together which is a fundamental tenant

Rule #4: Great Ingredients, Simply Cooked

Of your rule number four rule number four is great ingredients simply cooked I think one of the things that freaks people out about cooking from scratch is this idea of these very involved multi-step processes you’re gonna need 10 different spices and you’re going to buy a spice just for one recipe and you’re never going to use it again sure I like to get the best quality stuff I can get within reason that is saving you more money than any other tip yes buy a good olive oil find a salt that you like when you get a good vegetable from the farmer’s market you can just slice it up and put some olive oil and salt over it and just call it a day for like 70 percent of dishes.

Rule #5: Eat Together

Ii love the process of cooking and I think once you get into this rhythm and this world of being one with your kitchen it really is a beautiful thing and your fifth and final rule talks about once you bring more food and more joy nto your kitchen you’re able to do this what’s your rule number five rule number five is eat together I love it if you have literally anyone else at the table with you it feels so much more obvious and beneficial to make something and make it a little lovely it’s harder to do that if you’re constantly eating alone there’s a difference between the occasional peaceful meal to yourself which I definitely can appreciate as mom and the habitual avoidance of some sort of communal gathering it doesn’t matter if you’re living with family or however your situation looks this could just be getting some friends over on a weekend the other big benefit of eating together too is that then you’re getting into this process of the collective and you’re talking about being in the kitchen together sharing the workload of prepping the food cleaning up afterwards you find as you start to build out these habits of eating more collectively that there’s more than enough to go around Always.

Closing

Trinity, congratulations on everything. If people want to get the book, if people want to check out Golde, if they’re going to be a little bit and people want see what you’re cooking, where can they go? How can they see what You’re Up To? I have a website and it’s TrinityMouzon.com The Book Eating at Home is available everywhere that books are sold.

Golde is Golde with an E at the end, .co .co and on Instagram I am at Trinity Muzan and Golde is at Golde. I love the book, and hopefully I’m in the Hudson Valley soon, and we can eat together and celebrate life. That sounds wonderful, thank you, Darin.

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Renata’s Five Rules for Bringing Fine Dining to Everyday Baking

This week, I sit down with Renata Ameni, executive pastry chef and partner at Birdee, to talk about bringing the mindset of fine dining into everyday baking. After spending years in some of the world’s most exacting kitchens, Renata shares her Five Rules for Bringing Fine Dining to Every Day Baking. She talks about one piece of equipment that is a must-have, how to set up your station for success, buy a scale, and to never overlook the power of a thoughtful garnish. Whether you’re baking your very first loaf of bread or trying to make your cakes, cookies, and pastries just a little bit better, these are practical lessons that will immediately change the way you approach the craft.

One of the things I admire most about Renata is that she doesn’t see fine dining as something exclusive or unattainable. Instead, she treats it as a way of thinking. Precision isn’t about perfectionism; it’s about removing variables so your creativity has room to shine. The same discipline that helped her succeed at Eleven Madison Park and Saga now shows up in a neighborhood bakery where the goal is simple: make someone’s day a little better through a great pastry. It’s a reminder that excellence rarely comes from complicated techniques. More often, it’s the accumulation of small, intentional decisions repeated over and over again until they become second nature.

Introduction

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I’m back in Greenpoint chatting with Renata Ameni, who is the executive pastry chef and partner at Birdee. She’s here to share her five rules for bringing fine dining to everyday baking, about the importance of having a scale at home, how choosing the right plateware elevates what you bake, and that by perfecting the balance of salt and acid, you’ll be able to level up your at-home baking game.

It is incredible insights for someone who has baked at some of the highest levels of dining and a great guide for anyone who’s looking to try baking at home for the first time or for anyone who’s looking to raise their prowess.

So let’s get into the rules here on HRN.

From Brazil to Fine Dining

Renata, so nice to meet you coming from my old stomping ground of Williamsburg and Greenpoint. Thanks for making the time to sit down and chat with me.

Of course, thank you for having me.

Brazil has such a rich tradition of pastries. What do you love about Brazilian baking culture that is different than French or Italian or any other parts of the world?

First of all, it has a lot of eggs, has a lot of yolks because it comes from the Portuguese. So the Portuguese nuns, they use egg whites to starch their uniforms, so they had all these egg yolks leftover. So they start making sweets with that.

I feel like in Brazil, the pastries, the sweets, they’re very easy to make. It’s very easy to make at home. It’s fast. You don’t need thousands of equipment or anything like that. So I think that this is great.

Lessons from the World’s Best Kitchens

You’ve worked at some of the highest upper echelons of fine dining, Jean-Georges, Eleven Madison Park, and Reisa. What mentality and what tips did you take away from those moments in your career?

Those places changed my life. It was a lot about discipline, especially at Eleven Madison Park. The practice, like boring thing that you have to make every day, that really makes you better. The way that you approach your cooking, more than just sit down to eat, it’s the whole experience to make people feel that they’re special.

Opening Birdee

Pulling from your background from Brazil and baking there and working in these fine dining restaurants, you have now opened your first solo bakery, Birdee, in Williamsburg. When did you realize it was time to take flight on your own? What did you want to say?

Working in restaurants, pastry chef always has to kind of adapt to what the savory chef is doing, right?

Sure.

I always had all the freedom at Crown Shy and Saga and everything that James would let me do anything. But still, you have to align with the kind of food that the restaurant serves.

At one point, I’m like, I just want to be able to do my own thing. It’s not that I wasn’t. I really was. I just wanted not to be behind anyone’s shadow, which was really hard for me because then you kind of own the spotlight. Everything you make is on you. Can’t blame on anyone else.

The Five Rules

Rule #1: Get a Scale

I am not a baker. I am much more comfortable as a savory chef. A lot of the times when you think about that type of cooking, you go more to these fine dining, high-end, Michelin-star type restaurants. What most people don’t realize is that you need to bring those same elements if you want to have that same type of success when you’re making baked goods, which is why I’m so excited for you to chat about your five rules for bringing fine dining to everyday baking.

Now, when I got into bread, I got the first piece of equipment that you talk about and it changed everything. What’s your rule number one?

Get a scale. Full stop.

It’s the simplest thing. It doesn’t have to be a fancy scale or anything like that.

You can get measuring spoons too.

No. Just get the scale. It’s worth it. It’s a little investment. It’s going to really change the way you bake. It’s easier, you’re going to make less mistakes, and it’s going to be worth it.

Rule #2: Have Your Mise en Place Ready

Once you get a scale, once you know the exact weights, I have found that being prepared is another key part of baking. So being prepared in this way is a big part of rule number two.

Have your, we call it in restaurants, mise en place.

It’s going to be a huge problem. You’re going to have to do it all over again.

And that’s what I tell my team. I’ve been doing this for 20 years. I still do it. I finish scaling things. I go back to the recipe and I kind of cross everything that is already scaled.

You can always adjust to savory. When that bread is fully baked, there’s no putting salt back in.

No, there’s not.

And it depends on the bread you’re making. You have sourdough, whatever. It’s going to take you three days to be able to make that recipe again.

Rule #3: Elevate Your Plateware

Since I mostly make pizzas, I have either a cutting board or a metal pizza platter that I serve all my food on. Anytime I do anything else, I feel like the presentation is always lacking.

Having these elements in your pantry makes up your rule number three.

The plateware where you serve your food is going to matter because a lot of fine dining is the presentation.

Have wooden boards or if you have a big platter, things that are really nice that you already have at home. It’s not like you have to go buy anything.

Of course.

Be creative. Sometimes you think you have this vintage stuff at home that was from your mom or your grandma. It’s going to elevate whatever you want.

Rule #4: Garnishes Matter

Once you have the pastry or the bread or whatever you baked on the plate, adding little flourishes can take what you’re making up to another level, which is your rule number four.

Garnishes, they matter.

If you’re making a cake, make a crumble. Put a little crumble on top. Put fresh fruits. If you’re able to buy microgreens and microflowers, they’re your best friends. It takes nothing. You don’t have to do anything. But if you put it on top, it already looks super elevated.

Rule #5: Balance with Salt and Acid

You’ve done the measuring. You’ve done the plating. But when you’re thinking about what goes into making an elevated fine dining type of baked good, pulling from the savory world makes up your fifth and final rule.

What’s rule number five?

Salt and acid. All the time. All the time. Always salt.

And acid is super important, especially for cake. Put some acid in the frosting. It’s going to take something that is, “Oh, this is tasty,” to, “Oh my God, this is amazing.”

I like this burnt honey cake that we make at Birdee. It’s very salty in a good way because there’s the burnt honey and you add the salt and it just brings you to a whole other level. I like to serve it with a very acidic strawberry sorbet.

Where to Find Birdee

Renata, if people want to see what you’re serving or check out what you’re doing or just come by the shop, where can they go?

Come to Birdee at the Refinery at the Domino Building, and we’re there literally every day of the week.

Amazing. Well, Renata, I cannot wait to swing in and grab some pastries. Something very sweet and something very sour.

Thank you so much for having me.

I hope to see you there soon.

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Joe's Five Rules for Building a World for Yourself

Joe Beddia didn’t just build one of the best pizzerias in America—he built a world. From the moment you walk down the alley and step through the door at Pizzeria Beddia, you can feel that every detail exists for a reason. In this episode, Joe shares his Five Rules for Building a World for Yourself, from finding work that genuinely inspires you to surrounding yourself with people you want to spend your days alongside. We also talk about the challenge of protecting your values as success arrives, why your name is your most valuable asset, and how building something lasting requires equal parts conviction, curiosity, and restraint. Whether you’re opening a restaurant, starting a business, or simply trying to create a life that feels like your own, Joe’s rules are a thoughtful roadmap for doing meaningful work on your own terms.

There’s something about going home to Philadelphia that always resets me. Maybe it’s because so much of who I am was shaped there, or maybe it’s because the city has always rewarded people who care more about substance than spectacle. Every trip home is an excuse to revisit old favorites, but even more than that, it’s a chance to see what people have built since I left. Joe’s restaurant is one of those places. It isn’t just a great pizzeria—it feels complete. Every corner, every plate, every decision reflects the same point of view. As someone who spends a lot of time talking to people about creativity, I find fully realized visions endlessly inspiring. They’re a reminder that the best work doesn’t happen by accident. It happens when someone has the courage to imagine an entire world—and then patiently builds it, one decision at a time.

Five Rules for Building a World for Yourself

Joe Beddia

Hi everyone, before we get into today’s episode, I have a little bit of housekeeping to take care of. I am so excited to announce that I am partnering with the Food Institute who has acquired HRN and is the new home for Five Rules for the Good Life. Together, we’re going to be growing I couldn’t be more excited about this new partnership and excited to see where we take the show.

Introduction

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I’m in my hometown of Philadelphia chatting with Joe Beddia, the chef and owner of Pizzeria Beddia and the author of the incredible pizza book Pizza Camp. He’s here to share his Five Rules for Building a World for Yourself.

We talk about the importance of doing things that inspire you, working with people you want to be around, and staying true to your vision and values as you grow. It’s a great conversation for anyone starting their own business—or anyone looking to build something meaningful with intention.

So let’s get into the rules.

Building a World

Joe, so good to see you. Thanks again for all the hospitality the last time I was in Philly. Welcome to the show.

Thank you. Excited to be here.

For anyone who’s ever visited Pizzeria Beddia, they really get a sense of your vision. How did you approach bringing your worldview and mentality into the restaurant?

I had a unique circumstance where I had a very small pizzeria for five years. It was literally myself making pizza in a 300-square-foot shoebox. When our lease was up, I was approached by a startup restaurant group in Philadelphia. I got creative control over the menu, the design, and everything, which is probably pretty rare.

I worked with a lot of friends and really tried to create something special. It was a different time. We were developing this in 2017. Money was different. We did it for a lot less and got a lot more for our dollar.

I was there when it opened, and I was there a couple months ago. You can still feel the DNA of what you wanted to build, even though it’s evolved over the years. How has it changed?

It’s evolved through the people. We have different cooks now. Our head chef and sous chefs are different. I’d probably say the restaurant is the best it’s ever been. That’s really a testament to those individuals and how they’re able to work together.

At this point, I don’t really want any credit. I created something, but I’d like them to take ownership. Giving someone the opportunity to be creative and own new menu items has been amazing.

From my perspective, it’s such a great experience because you walk down this little alleyway, see the neon sign, walk through the door, and suddenly you’re inside this whole world you’ve built. What do you hope people feel when they come here?

I like keeping tradition alive by using really great ingredients and making well-fermented dough, but I also like stretching ourselves creatively. We pickle strawberries and make burrata salads. You can come for a traditional pizza that reminds you of your childhood, but you can also have a great soft serve with amaro on top or a beautiful bottle of wine.

It’s about honoring tradition while giving ourselves permission to be creative in the same space.

Now that you’ve been open since 2019, written an incredible book, and received so much recognition, I’m excited for you to share your Five Rules for Building a World for Yourself.

Rule One

Go Where You Feel Comfortable

A lot of people feel like they have to constantly push themselves or chase opportunities that don’t really fit who they are. But your first rule is about grounding yourself before you build something.

What’s Rule Number One?

Go where you feel comfortable.

That’s a tricky thing because you should absolutely challenge yourself. But you should also feel like you’re in a space that makes sense for you.

You want to work for a great chef. It might be difficult. But if you’re learning and growing, every failure becomes growth.

It’s kind of like Philadelphia. You come into this town and it’s rough around the edges. But once you prove yourself, people invite you into their homes. Kitchens work the same way. You have to earn your place.

Rule Two

Find What Inspires You

You have to be inspired enough that you’re willing to dedicate your time—and really part of your life—to something.

I feel fortunate because I became obsessed with pizza while working in restaurants. I’d travel to New York, visit all the old-school places, go to Di Fara, Totonno’s, Una Pizza. I was fascinated by serious pizza makers.

Eventually I started experimenting on my own and realized, “I want to take a shot at this.”

How do you become inspired? For me, it was traveling and tasting. That’s what changed everything. Once I found that inspiration, I decided to go all in.

Rule Three

Work With People You Want to Be Around

Going all in on a restaurant means endless hours. Finding the right people to spend those hours with is one of the hardest parts.

What’s Rule Number Three?

Work with people you want to be around.

Someone doesn’t have to have the most experience in the world. They just have to be a good person. They need to care, show initiative, and be interested in learning.

You can teach almost anyone the technical side of the job if they’re passionate about the work.

Rule Four

Figure Out What Medicine Works for You

Even if you’ve found inspiration and surrounded yourself with good people, this work is still incredibly difficult. There are great days and terrible days.

Rule Number Four?

Figure out what medicine works for you.

It’s a little tongue-in-cheek because when I started, the medicine that worked for me was drinking—which isn’t something I’d recommend to anyone.

Eventually it led me down a path where I was overusing alcohol to deal with stress. That pushed me toward therapy and healthier ways of dealing with anxiety.

I’m not sober, but I have a completely different perspective than I did in 2013 when I opened the original pizzeria. I just opened a restaurant in London, and I realized that one of my rules now is simply finding something healthy that genuinely works for you.

There’s a tremendous amount of stress in this business, and you need a way to manage it.

Rule Five

Your Name Is Your Currency

Now that you have two restaurants and years of success behind you, I’m sure you’ve had opportunities that didn’t align with the world you wanted to build.

Your fifth rule is about staying true to yourself.

Trying to stay true to who you are and your values.

There are always going to be offers. People will want you to sell something or attach your name to something you don’t really believe in.

As I’ve gotten older, I’ve done less and less of those things.

Your name is your currency. It’s all you really have. So you want to spend it on things you genuinely believe in and can be proud of.

Closing

Joe, congratulations on everything.

If people want to come have a slice, a whole pie, a bottle of wine, or simply experience the world you’ve built, where should they go?

Pizzeria Beddia, 1313 North Lee Street in Philadelphia. Or Bar Aetna in the Newington Green neighborhood of London.

Incredible. Joe, I can’t wait. I’ll be back for Thanksgiving and we’ll definitely stop by to pick up some pies to bring home.

Thanks for making the time. Great to see you as always.

Excellent. Thank you.

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Chef Adrianne Calvo has built a life around the belief that flavor is the ultimate north star. As the chef, writer, and restaurateur behind Chef Adrianne's Vineyard Restaurant and Bar in Miami, she has spent her career proving that the fundamentals never go out of style. In this episode, she breaks down her Five Rules for Cooking with Maximum Flavor — from why the real work happens before anything ever hits the pan, to how controlling moisture is the secret most cooks overlook, to why the final ten percent of a dish is responsible for ninety percent of its impact. Whether you are cooking for the people you love or just trying to get more out of what you make at home, this one will change the way you think about what's on your plate.

What I love about sitting down with Chef Adrianne is that she reminds you that flavor is not a technique, it's a commitment. It's easy to chase trends, to pile on ingredients, to rush to the finish line — and she calls all of that out with such clarity and warmth that you immediately want to go back into the kitchen and start over. The way she talks about tension, contrast, and intention made me think less about cooking and more about how the best experiences in life are the ones that engage you rather than just comfort you. That's the kind of conversation that sticks with you long after the meal is over

For my first piece for Caper, I wrote about Jingbo Lou and the incredible community he has helped build at L.A.’s Alpine Courtyard. His approach to the landlord-tenant relationship is a true innovation and something that could be a north star for the shifting restaurant landscape.

Introduction

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I’m in Miami sitting down with chef, writer, restaurateur, and teacher, Adrianne Calvo, whose spot, Chef Adrianne’s Vineyard, Restaurant, and Bar, has been serving up. She’s here to share her five rules for cooking with maximum flavor. She talks about the importance of preparation before putting anything in the pan, that the amount of moisture in a dish can be maker and that the final 10% of finishing determines 90% of its impact. It is a great conversation for anyone who leads with flavor in the kitchen as looking for extra tips to get the most out of what they make at home. So let’s get into the rules.

Getting Started: A Culinary Journey

Chef Adrianne, so nice to meet you. Thank you for sitting down with me all the way from Miami. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. You got into the culinary world at such a young age. What foods and flavors drew you in?

I got into the — yeah, I wanted to be a journalist. I was put in a cooking class by mistake my junior year of high school, and it wasn’t until Johnson and Wales University came in and did a demo doing a strawberry and cream cheese stuffed French toast that completely enchanted and captivated me. That exact dish that made me switch paths for the rest of my life.

Hopping on this path must have opened up such a big world to you and put you on so many adventures, including heading to Napa Valley, which was a big inspiration for you in your life and your restaurant, Chef Adrianne’s Vineyard Restaurant and Bar. What was it about that area that inspired you so much?

One of the culinary competitions that I had won while at Johnson & Wales University, and I chose to go to Napa Valley because going to culinary school, they really focus on that connection of the land, the food, and the wine and how it makes people feel. I’ve been hearing about for two years now. I want to feel it. I want to go experience it. And I wasn’t even of legal drinking age. Boots on the ground. I remember going with my mom and I was like, oh my gosh, everything they said is real. This is like Narnia for bon vivant. I remember thinking one day, if I ever have a restaurant, I want to bring that feeling to Miami. At that time, Miami was really missing the mark. There was no connection to land, food, wine, sitting down at a table, bursting with different flavors, really knowing the story of where your food came from. Don’t even get me started on the wine. I don’t even know if Miami knew the term wine in the early 2000s. Napa really inspired my very first restaurant, Chef Adrian’s Vineyard Restaurant and Bar.

That’s not to say that your restaurant doesn’t follow those, but it seems that flavor is your North Star. Oh, yes. Why does that element of cooking dictate everything you do? It’s the fundamental belief that trends come and go. And much like fashion, Coco Chanel that said, what’s great will always be great. I’m just paraphrasing it. That’s what classics are. And you are right. We don’t follow trends. We’re actually the opposite of that. The human experience of being able to find the guiding principles in your cooking and your life and your business makes me so excited for you to share your five rules for cooking with maximum flavor.

Rule #1: Build Flavor Before Heat Ever Touches the Pan

Your first rule is something that I have gotten so much better at and learned the importance of as I’ve cooked over the years. What’s your rule number one?

Rule number one is build flavor before heat ever touches the pan. So many people rush to get things in a pan. Maximum flavor doesn’t begin at the stove. It begins in preparation, seasoning your proteins in advance, tempering ingredients the right way, and understanding how salt migrates and what separates dimensional cooking from flat execution.

Rule #2: Control Moisture Like It’s Currency

You talk about salt and you talk about adding flavor. Some of the times when people prepare a dish in advance, there’s a marinade or they’re drawing moisture out. It can affect the way that things actually cook, especially if you’re looking for a crust with the steak or a nice type of sear. Your rule number two talks about keeping this in mind when it comes to moisture.

Rule number two is control moisture like its currency. Water is the silent saboteur of flavor. Excess moisture prevents caramelization and this is like a big deal for me. So many cooks and even well-trained chefs don’t realize you just take a scallop that’s very moist by nature and you season it and then you throw it in a pan to try and get that nice sear on it. Yeah. You’re never going to get a sear. You’re just going to poach or steam that scallop. You’re never going to get color on it. You’re going to overcook it to death. Removing that moisture, taking that extra step to pat it dry. Oh my goodness, that’s a secret. You want that sear, that char, and you can only achieve that by removing the moisture.

Rule #3: Layer with Intent, Not Excess

Removing items when you’re cooking and editing, especially when you reference someone like Coco Chanel, is really important to achieve the final result that you want. And even though you talk about maximum flavor, that doesn’t always mean more is more. What’s your rule number three?

Rule number three is layer with intent, not excess. More ingredients do not equal more flavor. Precision does. Intention does. Think in layers. Fat for richness, acid for lift, salt for amplification, heat for a little intrigue, and texture for memory. Just think of something simple like a burger or a hot dog, and sometimes people will put potato chips on it, and that crunch really makes a difference. Just having that sensory really makes for that unforgettable bite. The fat versus the acid, the salt versus the sweet — that balancing of flavors really does make an impact when you’re putting together any sort of either savory or sweet dish or just cooking for something that really is going to awaken the palate. Your rule number four talks about how comfort isn’t always the goal.

Rule #4: Cook for Contrast, Not Comfort

Oh no. What’s your fourth rule?

Rule number four is cook for contrast, not comfort. The palate remembers tension. Crisp against tender, bright against deep, hot against cool. Oh my gosh, when you think hot against cool you just think of warm apple caramel tart and then cold ice cream. A perfectly cooked dish without contrast is forgettable. A dish that plays with opposition becomes addictive. Great cooking doesn’t soothe, it engages you.

You put all this time into cooking, you’ve had this preparation, you’ve thought about the balance, you’ve controlled the moisture. Your fifth and final rule talks about pulling it all together and it’s where a lot of people, including myself, get really nervous right before you present what you’ve cooked to the people you love. What’s your rule number five?

Rule #5: Finish Like It Matters

Finish like it matters because you’re cooking for the people you love. Oftentimes, you’re pulling it out of the oven. You just, boom, goes on the table. It’s a race to the finish line. But the final 10% of a dish determines 90% of its impact. A squeeze of acid right at the end, a drizzle of olive oil, fresh herbs — I love that.

Where to Find Chef Adrianne

Well, if anyone wants to try your complete dishes at the restaurant or join any of your cooking classes on live streams or pick up your book, where can they go? How can they follow along with what you’re up to and what you’re doing in the world?

You can follow me on socials at Chef Adrianne, and that’s the same handle for YouTube, for the livestream, for the channel, or you can pick up any of my cookbooks on Amazon or wherever books are sold. Amazing. Congratulations to everything. I can’t wait to swing to the restaurant next time I’m in Miami. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It was awesome, and congratulations on everything you’re doing.

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Noah Galuten has spent years cooking alongside some of the best chefs, pit masters, and grill masters in America, so when it came time to write Grill Time, he wanted to share everything he had learned. He joined the show to share his Five Rules for Better Grilling, covering everything from why gas grills deserve more respect to the flavor advantages of cooking with wood and charcoal. We also get into the surprising power of mayonnaise, why chasing perfect grill marks can be overrated, and the one tool that will instantly make you a more confident cook. Whether you’re feeding a crowd or just trying to get dinner on the table, these are practical rules you’ll actually use.

Summer has officially arrived. The days are longer, the drinks are colder, and every meal suddenly feels like a good excuse to be outside. There’s something about cooking over fire that changes the pace of the day. Neighbors linger a little longer, friends show up a little earlier, and dinner becomes the event instead of the thing that happens before it. If you’ve been looking for a reason to dust off the grill, invite some people over, and make the most of the season, this conversation is the inspiration you need to get started.

Photo by Kristin Teig

Jacaranda’s recent opening in Los Angeles has had the culinary community abuzz with Daniel Patterson’s return to fine dining. Opened and owned with his wife, Sarah Lewitinn, this thirty-seat, tasting menu has been years in the making. Read my latest profile for Fine Dining Lovers on them, their love story and their road to opening.

Introduction

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I’m joined by Noah Galuten, whose new cookbook, Grill Time, Why You Should Be Grilling for Better, Healthier, Easier, and More Delicious Meals, is out now wherever books are sold, to share his five rules for better grilling.

We talk about how there’s no shame in the gas grill game. With that being said, nothing tastes better than smoke in food and how one secret ingredient is the key to better grilling.

Summertime is here and if you’re looking to get outside and to do some cooking, there is no better conversation for some inspiration and some rules to get your grill game going.

So let’s get into the rules.

Why Grilling Is Different

Noah, it’s so good to see you. Congratulations. Your new book has been out for a little less than a week. Grill time. Thanks for stopping by and making time for the show.

Thank you for having me, man. This first week has been so great. Summertime is here. It’s time for grilling.

What do you love so much about this season and cooking this way?

There’s so many things I love about grilling and the great thing about living in Los Angeles is you can grill 12 months out of the year. I know. I try to be nice to the people who don’t have the weather that we have.

That’s true. Grilling is just the way that I actually find myself cooking for my family the most often. It is easier, cleaner, faster, often healthier than you would do it on the stove. There’s stuff that I would never do on a stove in a million years that I will do on a grill a hundred times out of a hundred.

To cook a piece of chicken, to put on a salad, who’s pan searing? No one. It’s always grilled chicken at a restaurant. Throw it on a gas grill in the back, charcoal grill. You’ve got something instantly.

A lot of people get intimidated by grilling. It’s usually due to one bad experience because they’ve only tried it a handful of times. How do people get back on the horse after having a grilling mistake?

It’s like anything. The second time is going to be so much easier. The barrier to entry is basically having a grill. And once you have one, do it a couple times, get better at it.

Writing Grill Time

Once you find that inspiration of what to cook and how to cook it, it just makes you want to get outside even more. With so much of this type of cooking under your belt, how did you select the stories and recipes you wanted to share?

When a band has their first album, they spend their entire life creating it and then your second album is two years later and you’re trying to come up with a whole lifetime of stuff.

This was this lucky stroke of mine because my first cookbook was so much of my family cooking growing up, my mom’s food, the food that I make for my family at home.

And then I have this whole other side of grilling that I’ve been doing forever and learning from amazing mentors like Kevin Bloodsoe for Bloodsoe’s Barbecue and with Ari Colander for Seafood Stuff, Jeremy Fox for Vegetables. I got to lean all that information into the way that I cook and grill at home.

So it just spilled out of me. It came together so quickly. There was so much food that I cook all the time on the grill that I’ve never gotten to write about.

Grilling cookbooks were just different from regular at-home cookbooks. Grilling is the type of cooking practice that you can always get better at. You can always refine your approach.

Rule #1: There Is No Shame in the Gas Grill Game

Now I’ve been around a lot of chefs who swear on nothing but aged pecan wood or cherry wood or some other sort of refined—

Those people don’t cook for their kids on a weeknight is my theory on that.

I love cooking with wood and charcoal. I have an entire outdoor cooking show on Tastemade called Barbecue Smokeout I make with Kevin and Bloodso. It is an amazing way to cook and I love it.

But with that being said, a great part of my life is getting dinner on the table and being able to throw—

The Gas Grill is an incredible—

A Gas Grill, there is no shame on it. And there’s no reason that just because you can make something more delicious with Smoke or Charcoal that will take longer time that you shouldn’t just do the easier option when it’s easier.

And having limited time on a weeknight or when you’re just trying to make a quick lunch, gas is great.

Rule #2: Nothing Tastes Better Than Grilling Over Wood and Charcoal

But when you do have the time, maybe it’s a weekend, maybe it’s a holiday, your rule number two talks about this type of grilling.

Rule number two, nothing tastes better than grilling over wood and charcoal.

So I kind of break this book down into two categories, Sure Weeknight Grilling and Weekend Project Grilling. Yes, I have cooked so many slow smoked pork ribs in the thousands over my career at Bloodso’s and I’m very good at it. I’ve had it a million times, but now my favorite rack of ribs in the world—

I call it smoke grill. They do it in the book where essentially you take a classic grill. I love these PK grills. It’s a really old company that’s been doing it forever. You essentially push all the charcoal to one side of the grill, put wood chunks on top, almost like you’re doing a reverse sear like on a two inch thick ribeye.

Instead of—

You Get A Smoky Crispy Edged Rib That’s Done In Half The Time Of A Slow Smoke.

You Can’t Fake The Flavor Of Smoke.

Rule #3: Getting Char on One Side Is More Important Than Getting Char Everywhere

Rule Number Three is getting char on one side is more important than getting char.

So this comes out especially with things that are quicker cooking like a burger patty, asparagus, zucchini.

If you try to get char all over the entire thing, especially if you’re on a gas grill that’s not super firepower, doesn’t have a ton of BTUs, get that char and that coffee.

Rule #4: Mayonnaise Is the Secret to Better Grilling

There is a chef trick that I was taught years ago about how to add some more moisture and flavor and to give yourself a little bit of grace when you’re cooking on the grill, which I’m so happy because it showed up as rule number four.

Here are the haters. They know what’s coming. Guys, it’s mayonnaise. Yep.

Mayonnaise is the secret to better grilling. And all you weirdo mayonnaise people out there, you guys are worse than cilantro people because theirs is a genetic condition. You guys just can’t stop talking about how you don’t like mayonnaise.

It’s not about tasting mayonnaise. It’s not about eating mayonnaise. It’s about the chemical properties of a perfectly emulsified fat that you can use it for so many things on the grill.

The big one to me, and I learned this from my buddy Ari Colander, who’s an incredible chef, painting the thinnest veil of mayonnaise on a piece of fish or a whole fish allows it to become virtually nonstick on the grill.

It also allows you to get seasonings to adhere perfectly to it and it makes it brown better. I can cook perfect crispy skin salmon on the grill with just one flip, a little bit of mayonnaise, some salt and pepper and it’s amazing.

Anything that you can do to add extra flavor and give yourself some breathing room on the grill is a rule well used.

Rule #5: Use a Meat Thermometer

Your fifth and final rule deals directly with understanding when to take your meat off the grill. What’s your rule number five?

Use a meat thermometer. What are we talking about here, guys?

It’s the easiest game changer. There’s this masculine thing of, no, I don’t need it, I know meat, I can touch the palm of my hand, no worries. You know the exact internal temp of a pre-marinated Trader Joe’s pork?

And that’s fine.

This is a sub-rule to this rule.

Cooking it properly.

Closing

Noah, congratulations on everything. If they want to pick up a copy of Grill Time or come see you on your incredible book tour that has a lot of delicious food and great guests, where can they go to learn more?

You can go to my website for all the tour dates. I have a 21-city tour with some of the best chefs and restaurants in the country. People like Chris Bianco, Frank Piniello, Ann Kim, Aaron Franklin, Kevin Blood.

So it is a crazy, crazy, crazy lineup. I’m so blown away by the kindness of the people in our industry.

Check that out on my website. Also, anywhere books are sold.

The book already came out. So if you’re on Amazon, it’s probably 75% off the week after it came out.

Good luck out on the road and I hope to be eating food and seeing you behind a grill very soon.

Let’s go grill some meat and have some beers.

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Matty Matheson has spent the last decade carving out his own lane by doing what most people are too scared to do: making things before anyone gives them permission. On this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, Matty joins Darin to talk about creating Just a Dash, finding his on-camera voice before “content creator” was even a career path, and why the best ideas usually start with a couple of friends, a camera, and a willingness to see what happens. They discuss trusting your collaborators, investing in yourself before anyone else will, and how consistency matters more than virality. Matty shares his Five Rules for Making Your Own Show, including why you should only cook things you love or hate, why working with friends changes everything, and why originality still matters in a world built on algorithms and imitation.

There’s something deeply inspiring about Matty’s journey because none of it feels manufactured. It feels earned. Watching someone continue to create for years, through rejection, uncertainty, changing platforms, and shifting industries, is a reminder that momentum is built through consistency, not shortcuts. The conversation is really about the value of showing up over and over again, trusting your instincts, and building with people you actually care about. There’s a specific kind of joy that comes from making things with friends, from laughing through the chaos, from figuring it out together in real time. Even when something fails, even when it gets messy, the act of creating is still better than standing still. Making something, anything, is how you find your voice.

Photo by Sid Tangerine

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Introduction

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

It is always a good time when I get to sit down with today’s guest, Matty Matheson, whose new season of Just a Dash is out on Netflix right now, along with the fifth season of The Bear coming out on FX and Hulu on June 25th.

He’s here today to share his five rules for making your own show.

We chat about the importance of working with people you trust, that to get everyone to buy in with what you’re making, you need to...

So let’s get into the rules.

Getting Started in Video

Matty, so good to see you. I love to hear the birds chirping and the sun streaming through in Canada. Thanks for making the time to sit down and chat with me.

You’re very welcome. That’s our canary, Waffles, and Waffles is just having a beautiful day it seems.

You are no stranger to TV. I’ve seen you cooking across different mediums for such a long time. Not every chef is drawn to that type of pursuit. What made you want to get involved in the first place?

Well, great question. The first video I ever made was my cheeseburger video. We made that over 10 years ago now.

My era, the beginning of that, when I was 26, 27, 28, if you were on TV, you were a massive star. There wasn’t any middle ground. There wasn’t any content. It wasn’t anything.

Some producers at Vice hit me up to see if I wanted to do something. In Canada, we shot a cheeseburger video, and that’s what it was.

It’s funny, I look back on that stuff. There’s no persona. There’s no yelling. There’s no anything. It’s just me being funny and talking in my regular voice.

I was just drawn to it because they wanted to do something different. It wasn’t some big TV show. It wasn’t a competition show. It wasn’t some thing that was out there that was on some major network.

That was what drew me to that, was just hanging out with people that I already hung out with, my friends that worked at Vice. It was still purer then. There was no anything. It wasn’t creating. We just made a cooking video, a how-to video.

Finding an On-Camera Voice

You had a chance to evolve before this new ecosystem of creators. What do you remember about learning that time and finding your on-camera persona before it became such a commodity to do content?

I would do a video every two, three months.

What a cadence compared to today.

I did that and then I did my pancake video and then I did my get-you-laid lasagna video. It was just like a thing where we made it when we made it.

I think I got paid 500 bucks a video at that time too, which was kind of nice.

Seems about right.

It was more money than I ever made in a two, three hour span of time. It was incredible to get that amount of money when I was that age. It was more money than I ever made.

There was no references.

Building Just a Dash

We shot Just a Dash two years ago. It’s amazing. It took a long time to edit. Tort and his crew, we took a long time finding it.

The way that we shoot Just a Dash is we shoot for 10 hours, 12 hours, and then we find everything in the edit. We’re always cooking one dish. There’s all these sub-stories and things and stuff.

When we made the season, it wasn’t with Netflix. It wasn’t with anybody. It was still just self-funded with the Canadian Arts grant that we get. We wanted to make something that was a little bit... so this was us putting in a little bit more effort.

We had six or seven more people on set. We had costume, we had set deck, a couple producers.

I had a little relationship over with Netflix and they were kind of looking for something and I was kind of looking to see if they were down.

It was a very easy thing. We showed it to them. They were very excited. It’s a no brainer.

And it was funny. I even told them when we first started to meet, I was just like, I pitched you this show like six years ago.

I guess they weren’t ready for it. Obviously because of The Bear I got a little more juice. Yeah, I got a little bit of Hollywood juice from that. We get to put something like Just a Dash out there and let that ripple out.

I’m glad that you got that juice because the show is great and it’s allowed you to stay in this game for so long, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for making your own show.

When I watch this season, there’s just such a levity, such a formed world with the people behind the camera and you in front of it. I just feel that you’re letting us into your home and into your life, which is a big part of your rule number one.

Rule #1: Cook Something You Love or Hate

Rule number one is cook something that you love or hate because then there’s no middle ground.

So you need to have feelings. For the type of content that I make, either I love it or I’m trying to figure it out and I hate it. Then the plane starts crashing and then I have to land the plane every episode.

That’s our snake eating its own tail thing that we’re always doing. We’re excited, we get smoked, and then we land the plane.

Always cook something that you love or something that you don’t understand. By cooking something you don’t understand, by the end of it, you’ll probably understand it and enjoy it.

Rule #2: Work With Friends

Creating that space from a production point of view to allow you to cook something that might work or go off the rails is really determined by the people who you work with and the relationships you have, which makes up your rule number two.

I love working with friends. Working with friends has given me an incredible life and has allowed us all to continuously work together.

Having somebody like that that knows you and knows how to work you. On the first two seasons of Just a Dash we had no producers, no writers, no nothing. Whoever was there that day was there.

It was just me, Camera B, Sound Guy, Tor, Michelle, myself.

It is a thing of trusting your crew. Believing in your crew. Also having this thing where everyone is level. Everyone is a part of it. Everyone is adding to the cup.

That’s the thing that’s the most important. Everyone is on the level. Everyone is a part of this. Everyone is equal. Everyone is doing their thing making this video.

Maybe that’s just because I naturally want everyone to have fun and everyone to be hanging out.

That’s why my videos just genuinely organically went to this. Oh yeah, what if we just turned the cameras around and it was just all my friends hanging out and we’re just making this video and I’m just the idiot in front of the camera, but the whole show is the 360 of five idiots hanging out about making a thing.

Rule #3: Get Everyone Behind You

Being able to lead a group of people, having the ability to take a stand and say, no, this is what we’re making, this is what you get, is a fundamental tenant of your rule number three.

Rule number three is believing in yourself enough to get everyone behind you.

Yeah, I’m always like just get me something to cook. Let’s not overthink it. Get me all the ingredients. If I don’t have all the ingredients that will make it better.

But that comes with a lot of trust. You need that trust to be able to communicate how to cook at the same time as be funny, to be present or unpresent, but still keep the train rolling.

The reason why I can be so funny or be so ridiculous at times is because the cooking, I’m not thinking about the cooking. I’m never really thinking about the cooking.

You know it. I know how to make pasta. I know how to make a cream sauce.

Cooking is very funny to me. As long as you understand the foundation, you can do multiple cuisines and multiple things and there’s only certain amount of things you can do. You can fry, you can roast, you can broil, you can boil, you can simmer.

Also finding your path throughout the video is part of my journey where I’m like a lot of the times I have an idea what I’m cooking and then I’ll get a feeling or an excitement about something as I’m doing it. And then that can switch a lane really quickly for me.

And then we just are going down that path. But for everyone else to be able to go down that path is that freedom.

Oh, I’m going to make grilled chicken fajitas. Okay, and I start doing it. I’m like, yo, what if we made a fried chicken sandwich fajita? Hell yeah.

Food isn’t different to the journey. It doesn’t really matter what I’m cooking. As I’m finding my happy place, truly, while I’m cooking this thing, I allow the happy place to get turned upside down and set on fire.

And then everyone around me is watching and not helping, but that’s part of it.

It is a thing knowing that that is what makes everything click, is us understanding our levels of where we’re going. Are we actually getting upset or are we just a little bit upset?

I don’t think we’ve ever had to fully take a break or something like that where we go on these emotional voyages.

Believing in yourself, knowing that you’re going to finish and finish strong, people will believe in you and that’s consistency.

Rule #4: Invest in Yourself

On the other side of believing in yourself creatively is the reality of production, what it takes to actually get something off the ground, which usually deals with finances.

And sometimes it’s hard to get people to invest in you before you invest in yourself, which makes up your rule number four.

Spend all of the money you have on yourself.

Exactly. Invest in yourself.

Yep.

Very low to the bottom of the barrel where I have risked financial risk for my family multiple times to believe in myself and to believe in that the project we’re working on, it will just continue.

I didn’t make Just a Dash to sell it at first. I made Just a Dash because I wanted to get Just a Dash.

I made the first season of Just a Dash when everyone said no.

I had left Vice. I went to LA. I had meetings at every frigging place thinking I had dead set on life. I had It’s Suppertime. I had Munchies.

And I was just like, oh. Easy, new show, new me. Yeah, like I’m over here now.

And everyone’s like, who the f**k are you?

And I was like, oh, okay, cool.

Got to the point where I was just like, I’ll pay for myself and start my own YouTube channel.

That’s what every single person does. But back then it was like a different thing.

I still don’t know how to make content on my phone. Like I meet all these Instagram chefs and people that are making content. I’ve done a couple of collabs and I’m like, you literally just shoot all...

Then I’m going to f**k with myself, believe in my friends and believe in the people that I’ve made all these things with.

I believe in them. I know that they can make good s**t. I know that I can make good s**t. And I know that people like it.

I may not be this valued person to all these networks. The internet, which was my fanbase at that time, enjoyed it and fucked with Just a Dash hard.

And as you believed in yourself and as you built out this world, you just continuously go.

At the beginning, it was this incredible time of you and your friends making something, doing something, putting it out there.

Consistency and Fans

It’s all because of the fans.

Every day I wake up and I’m so grateful for everybody and everything that’s happened to me.

I have spent the last 10 years being very consistent with output on a lot of different fronts.

I’ve given a lot of myself to a lot of videos and things all around the world. I’ve gotten that back, that reciprocal, and I think it is a beautiful thing.

Being able to be in the game for 10 years, making all these videos and work with so many people...

Rule #5: Be Yourself

Your fifth and final rule reminds anyone who wants to make their own show to keep this point of view when you’re creating something for yourself.

Rule number five, try to be yourself. You are a hundred percent original.

Everyone now wants originality, authentic, whatever authentic means anymore. You are original. Don’t try to be me. Don’t try to be something.

When I was making Dead Set On Life, I was like, I don’t want to watch Anthony Bourdain shows.

Still to this day, I’ve only seen two episodes of anything Bourdain’s ever done. I’ve read all of his books multiple times. I love his books. Of course.

But I was just like, if I’m going to be making this stuff, I want to put the blinders on.

Now it’s even more difficult because everyone is in their own echo chamber.

“Oh, I saw you do this recipe so I’m going to do the same recipe.”

Being viral sucks so bad. It’s so whack because I’ve never really been viral. It’s just been this continuous...

I’m not at home whipping up f*****g chorizo lasagnas, shrimp cocktails with a sauce from scratch. No, f**k that. Cocktail sauce from scratch is disgusting.

I even talked about that on Just a Dash. It was like people that put lemon zest in cocktail sauce. It was like you guys are maniacal. Get out of here. What are you doing?

It’s ketchup and horseradish. Maybe Tabasco. Stop it.

Closing

Matty, I really appreciate not just the show, but you showing people who actually want to get out there and still make something original and authentic how to do it.

If people want to watch Just a Dash or see the other things that you’re working on, where can they go? How can they see what you’re up to?

Just a Dash is on YouTube still, bi-weekly, new cooking something on YouTube. You can watch all three seasons of Just a Dash on Netflix.

You can get my cookbooks wherever you can get cookbooks, I feel.

Matty, so good to see you. Congrats on everything. I really do love this show. Hopefully we’ll run into each other somewhere in the world soon.

Hey, I’ll see you when I see you buddy. It’s nice to see you right now. It really is.

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There’s a certain type of person who dreams about opening a restaurant in Paris. Then there’s the type of person who actually does it. On this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with Mashama Bailey and Johno Morisano of The Grey and L’Arrêt to talk about what it really takes to open a restaurant in one of the most romanticized, bureaucratic, intimidating, and food-obsessed cities in the world. They share their Five Rules for Opening a Restaurant in Paris. We get into neighborhood politics, learning enough French to survive a conversation, battling condemned hood systems, and why your lawyer might become the most important person in your phone. It’s a conversation about hospitality, identity, stubbornness, and understanding exactly who you are before trying to introduce yourself to Paris.

What I love about this conversation is how open they are about all of it. There’s no mythology here. No pretending the process was glamorous. They talk honestly about the stress, the delays, the absurdity of getting yelled at over ventilation systems, and the emotional weight of trying to earn trust in a city that takes food very seriously. But there’s also so much laughter throughout the conversation. The kind that only comes from people who survived something difficult together and can now look back at the chaos with perspective. You can hear how much they love restaurants, how much they respect Paris, and how even in the hardest moments they never lost sight of why they wanted to do this in the first place.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, my guests join me from all corners of the world, Mashama Bailey and Johno Morisano, whose company, Gray Spaces, made its mark with The Grey in Savannah. Now, their new restaurant, L’Arrêt in Paris, has made a splash in the city.

They join me today to chat about their Five Rules for Opening a Restaurant in Paris.

They talk about the importance of practicing your conversational French, how to integrate yourself into the neighborhood, and why you should always have a good lawyer on standby. Even if you aren’t planning on opening your own little bistro in Paris, it’s a great conversation for anyone looking to start their own restaurant and understand the mindset you need to succeed.

So let’s get into the rules.

Opening Thoughts

Thank you for crossing continents to be with me today. So great to have you on the show.

Happy to be here.

Thanks for waking up at the crack of dawn to do it.

I got two young kids. I was up hours before we chatted.

When the opportunity came to open L’Arrêt in Paris, what were your thoughts about the culinary connection between Savannah and the through lines of both cities?

I thought in the beginning, you know what? We’re going to France. Pack our bags. Let’s go, let’s go, let’s do what we’re gonna do.

Really trying to figure out what food the neighborhood wanted to do. I think we got caught up in the idea of it all, at least I did, and not really hunkered down and realized, oh wait, we’ve been doing this for 12 years and we should absolutely bring some food from Savannah to France.

Also not realizing how nuanced our food is in Savannah and how it doesn’t always read as Southern. When you’re in Savannah, it feels very Southern. It eats very Southern. But when you’re in France, they need the hits. They need the things that overtly reflect Southern cuisine so they can understand what you’re doing because it’s such a melting pot here.

Southern food and Black American food is so entrenched in African ingredients that it almost reads African before it reads Southern.

That’s how we started off. And now we’re really embracing the fact that we’re coming from Savannah, we’re coming from the South, and we’re cooking grits and using cornmeal, lima beans, all these really delicious Southern ingredients. We’re braising and we’re frying and we’re putting it on a plate.

And I think they’re really like, “Oh, okay, I understand what this restaurant is now.” But I think before, showing up as The Grey, it was a little confusing because we weren’t overtly Southern.

Becoming Part of the Neighborhood

For anyone who’s spent time in Paris and gotten to know Parisians, it really is all about neighborhoods and local communities. How did you integrate yourself with the people there beyond the food, showing that you really wanted to be their neighborhood spot?

The Seventh Arrondissement is a place where I have been going with my wife for 30 years. I love that.

We actually found L’Arrêt because it was just a spot that I frequented called Les Parisiens. I knew the owner of that place and I know the guy who runs a little cafe around the corner, and I got to know some of the people in the neighborhood.

So when we did buy L’Arrêt, we did a lot of outreach to the neighbors. Here we are, these folks from New York City and Savannah coming into a very, very old and independent neighborhood in Paris.

We would set up at our friend’s cafe around the corner. We would invite the people who lived in the neighborhood, who worked in the neighborhood, and we talked to them about the plans for the restaurant.

We did a lot of outreach to the building, the folks who lived in the building we’re in. We invited everybody to come hear the planning and we had to go in front of the co-op, the HOA.

We were successful in some of it and we weren’t very successful at all with the building, in that they still wanted to put us through the ringer to get approvals. Which we ultimately got. It just took two years and a lot of lawyers and a lot of money.

Integrating yourself into the neighborhood, serving the community, is so great.

On the flip side, getting to know an area of Paris as intimately as you are, you find your own spots. What are some of the local institutions that you’ve made yourself a regular at as a way to show that you want to be a part of the neighborhood?

Rosarito Heap on Boulevard Saint-Germain. I can walk in there and they’re like, “Oh, madame.”

Also, there’s an Indian restaurant right around the corner from L’Arrêt. It’s called Ravi’s and they’re great there. It’s super small, quiet, only lit by candlelight. The food is really solid and it’s a great place to let your hair down and have a good meal.

La Flores is my local cafe on Rue du Bac, but I’ll go to Les Ambassades. Le Fontenoir is the little cafe on Rue du Bac. I’ve known Alex, who owns that place, for 20 years.

Lao Tzu, Chinese restaurant, New York City style. He would kill me if I said that because I told him once that Wo Hop is one of my favorite places. He’s like, “This is not Wo Hop.”

It’s funny, we were sitting in La Flores one night having a drink. I don’t even know if we were open yet. The waiter brought us over two glasses of wine and we said, “Oh no, we just came for one.”

And he said, “No, the people behind you want to buy you a glass of wine.”

They were just restaurant owners. She owns a restaurant right up the street and he owns a restaurant over by Tour Montparnasse. They just recognized us and bought us a drink. I’m now super friendly with both of them.

Restaurants are communal in all cities and there’s camaraderie. You just gotta make the rounds and say hi to everybody.

When you become a regular at a restaurant, that’s the best thing about it. They cater to each individual and how they want to experience that space.

So few people have been able to come from outside of France and open a spot that has regulars and feels like part of the city, which is why I’m so excited to talk to you about your Five Rules for Opening a Restaurant in Paris.

Rule #1: Practice Your French

If you’ve never been, especially when you go to a city like Paris, the second you start attempting to speak the native language, they will switch to English for you immediately.

But that doesn’t mean, look, if you’re there for a week that’s one thing. But if you’re setting up shop, it’s important to do as Parisians do, which is a big part of your Rule Number One: Practice your French.

I have been trying to learn French since high school, so I think it just may not be in the cards for me. I will continue to try.

I think I just have this huge intimidation factor when it comes to French.

Being able to be cordial is the most important thing. You don’t have to speak it well. You just have to be able to say hello, introduce yourself, ask someone how they’re doing because that’s just table stakes in France.

“Bonjour” is really like, hello, have a good day. Then it’s followed by “comment ça va?” And it could be a stranger on the street. You’re literally just saying, “Hello, how are you? I see you. How are you doing?”

That’s the basis. Then everything else depends on how much they want to help you out. It depends on how fast they talk or how slow they’re willing to talk and bring you along. But they’re very interested in immersing you into their culture.

Learning the language becomes easier.

Rule #2: Have a Sense of Humor

You have to have a sense of humor about it.

For a lot of situations and in a lot of instances, it’s just not funny. But you have to be able to see the humanity in a situation.

Culturally, everyone here is so different from Americans. So you do have to approach it with a sense of, I can’t take myself too seriously.

The folks here, they work to live. They don’t live to work. That’s a sensibility that is nice to adapt, especially for people like Johno and myself where you kind of have to slow down a little bit, enjoy yourself a little bit, laugh at yourself a little bit in order to get through the things that are really tough, like not being able to open up a restaurant for a year and a half.

It wasn’t very funny, but now we can find moments in those times that were humorous and we can let it go. We don’t have to drag it along with us.

For me, this is a dream come true. Having a neighborhood spot in Paris is something I’ve dreamed about since I got in the restaurant business.

You have to keep your head above the weeds and realize that even though it was f*****g hard, it’s great.

Rule #3: Know Who You Are

Having gone through all of the steps, no shortcuts, convincing the building, convincing the neighborhood, convincing the courts, you have to have a firm backbone, a clear idea of who you are and what you want to be, which is a core value of your Rule Number Three.

It was a lot of pressure. We’re going to one of the greatest food cities in the world. How are we going to show up?

You can’t forget the North Star.

Southern food is on the move. We’re taking Southern food to places where Black Americans found refuge over the course of the 20th century, Black American creatives.

We’re taking food that started where the Great Migration and all of the roots of food and culture came out of the South.

We just decided that’s who we are. That’s what we’re doing. We’re bringing Southern food to a city that has provided refuge for people that wanted to express themselves for a really long time.

And I think that’s when the epiphany happened.

Rule #4: Understand the Infrastructure

It’s one thing to have those epiphanies. It’s one thing to have the right attitude.

But for anyone who’s ever opened up a restaurant, there is the physical nature of having a running kitchen. Knowing how to build one in America is different than any other country. And once you get into their rules, it’s a completely different ballgame, which makes up your Rule Number Four.

Make sure that the hood system hasn’t been condemned by the city of Paris.

The space has been a working restaurant, everybody says in the neighborhood, for 100 years. I don’t know if that’s true or not true, but the last time the restaurant was renovated was in 1970.

The one thing we had to do when we bought the restaurant, the only cooking implement was a four-top range with a small oven in it.

We gutted the restaurant. When we gutted the restaurant, we actually did a preservation project.

For example, the comptoir, the cafe counter, our contractors removed the marble facade, which is so Brady Bunch 1970s that you could never replicate it again. We put it back on the new comptoir that is structurally sound.

We did very similar things at The Grey.

But the extraction pipe that vented the hood goes up through the core of the building to the roof. It’s like a pipe that’s maybe two inches in diameter.

When the city came and inspected it, they were like, “Oh, you can never use that.”

And we’re like, “Okay, what do you want us to do?”

They said, “Just run a new modern hood under the full platform, the drop ceiling, and you can run it out the bike room here into the courtyard and go up the side of the building and vent the hood.”

Well, the neighbors thought that was the worst idea.

They literally picketed in the street.

They literally tried to use that as a way to prevent us from reopening a restaurant.

Every Parisian loves food and loves restaurants. They just don’t want them in their building.

We got in a big battle over the hood system and we will never make that mistake again. Everybody in Paris has had a battle over the hood system, frankly. It’s a rite of passage.

You don’t want to obviously overrun any of the neighbors, but at some point you go, you know what? We’ve checked all the boxes. We’ve done everything right.

Rule #5: Have a Good Lawyer on Standby

Your fifth and final rule deals with this one person you have on speed dial to make sure that you can open the doors. What’s your Rule Number Five?

Have a good lawyer on standby.

And for anyone who wants to open a restaurant in Paris, her name is Rebecca Cohen. Give her all the praise.

I will send you her number. And Olivier, more of our corporate guy.

The French love a battle, right?

They love a battle.

Do they respect you more if you beat them in battle?

Duh.

Honestly, that’s a really good question.

For the most part, yes. But Madame Cotina, who I love in the building, I’m very kind to her. She hates me with a passion post-battle.

For the most part, you earn respect, but you could just as easily be dead to them and they not have a problem.

I like that binary option. I’m going to eat at your restaurant every day or you’re dead to me.

Closing

If people want to stop by L’Arrêt or if they’re in Savannah and want to go by The Grey, or just see what you two are up to, where you are in the world, what’s the best place for them to check you two out?

Websites for both restaurants. 36 Rue de l’Université in Paris and downtown Savannah, Georgia.

Next time I’m in either city, I’m going to swing in. Congratulations to you both. Good luck with the next six months of operation. I can’t wait to see what you continue to build.

Thank you.

Thank you so much. We really appreciate you taking the time for us.

Really great, thanks Darin.

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Shaheen Ghazali, the chef and owner of Kurrypinch, joins Five Rules for the Good Life to share his Five Rules for Getting to Know South Asian Cuisine. Born in Pakistan, raised in Sri Lanka, and shaped by years traveling the world as a marine cadet with his father, Shaheen approaches food through the lens of curiosity, evolution, and connection. This conversation goes far beyond the idea of “authenticity” and digs into how cuisines borrow, adapt, and grow over generations. From why spice doesn’t always mean heat to how curry is often misunderstood in the West, Shaheen breaks down the common language that exists across cultures and why understanding food means looking deeper than labels.

What I love most about Shaheen’s approach is that he talks about food the way some people talk about music, art, or family history. There’s a calm confidence in the way he explains flavor, balance, and tradition without turning any of it into dogma. He understands that food is alive. It changes with migration, memory, trade, and circumstance. Sitting with him, you realize he’s less interested in defending a cuisine than inviting people into it. The best meals do that. They lower your guard, tell you a story, and make the unfamiliar feel personal. Shaheen cooks and speaks from that exact place.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Introduction

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today I’m joined by Shaheen Ghazaly, the chef and owner of Kurrypinch, a Sri Lankan restaurant here in Los Angeles. He shares his five rules for getting to know South Asian cuisine.

It’s about the fundamental understanding that food and cuisine is always evolving, that spice doesn’t always mean spicy, and that balance is the key ingredient to any successful meal. It is an incredibly philosophical conversation about cooking and global cuisine, and how anyone out there who wants to know more about what they’re eating should dive a little deeper.

So let’s get into the rules.

Shaheen, so nice to meet you.

Thank you for stepping away from the very busy Curry Pint to sit down and chat with me for the show.

Thank you for having me.

You were born in Pakistan, raised in Sri Lanka, and spent a large part of your early life traveling with your father. How did that shape your outlook on food?

Since I was a kid, my mom is a Pakistani, my dad is a Sri Lankan. When my mom passed away, we moved to Sri Lanka. My dad was taken care of, and since he was traveling, he taught us how to take care of ourselves by having limited ingredients at home to make food.

Breakfast, whatever it’s available.

That made me be creative and come up with my own way of food.

Since I was 10 years old, I fell in love with food, not only by looking at my aunt cook, I just fell in love with it.

We were not raised like most Sri Lankans. They go with the spices like heat, but we grew up having flavored and not too much heat going on.

That deep love of food, is that what brought you to the United States to open a restaurant?

No, the cooking was a hobby. I always enjoyed it. After I finished my college and everything, I started traveling with my dad. He was a captain in a ship. I joined the ship with him as a Marine Cadet officer and then I traveled the world.

When we were growing up, we were limited to certain things or knowledge. For example, fish cutlets, that’s a Sri Lankan dish. But when I started traveling, then I learned it’s just a term that we use when it comes to the technique, the method. The ingredients are all very, very similar.

This made me dig deep into culture and food.

When I said traveling, I have been to many countries. Whenever we touched down at a port, my first thing would be to go and try many different cuisines. Their traditional food.

So I wanted to bring, because Sri Lankan food is not that popular in LA, I just wanted to introduce our cuisine in a term people would understand.

At the end of the day, the ingredients and the technique remained true to our culture, our background, and things like that.

Was there a moment when you realized that enough people in LA, or the people who kept coming back to the restaurant, really understood what you were cooking and learned about the Sri Lankan food and the South Asian food you were serving?

Not all of them.

Sure.

I have had so many times, “Oh, this is not authentic.”

I’m like, there’s no such thing as authentic.

Sure.

Because in Sri Lanka, there are many regions, many parts, many cultures. We may use the same spices in a different manner.

For instance, we have a dish called Jaffna prawn curry. The reason we call it Jaffna, it’s a part of Sri Lanka, and they are more influenced by South Indian food. Most of the food that we have or currently use is influenced by South Indian food.

We try our level best with all the new guests who come to our restaurant to give them a brief background about certain food because the terms of curry or curry, they’re scared because I don’t know what they have in their mind, but when you mention curry they just go bongas.

Being such a lifelong devotee to food and admirer of cuisine culture, and having restaurants of your own, I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for getting to know South Asian cuisine.

1) Know that food is always evolving.

There’s been a large movement in the United States specifically about third culture cuisine.

When people call food authentic, they’re usually talking about just one point of a cuisine’s long story.

People have traded spices, ingredients, and cooking ideas across the continent.

When people visit our restaurants, especially South Asians, they might say this is not authentic Sri Lankan or Indian food, but every culture, city, and region has its own.

Having these recipes evolve means that certain words that people might be afraid of, those definitions change as well.

2) Spice doesn’t always mean spicy.

And one of the key elements, the heat of a dish and how that’s evolved, makes up your rule number two.

Spices are used for aroma, depth, and balance, not just for the heat.

My way of cooking, or what I have learned...

Agreeing on these terms or agreeing on these...

3) Not every curry is a sauce.

The approach to what goes into a dish or what even makes up a dish is something that you need to find a common language on, especially when you’re running a restaurant and explaining how that might differ in what you’re serving.

Not everyone is going to align with what you say, especially as you strike out to define your own take on the cuisine, which is a fundamental of your rule number three.

All the curries, they aren’t sauces.

The word curry describes many, many different dishes.

Some curries are rich and saucy, while others are dry, stir-fried, or just lightly spiced.

Curry is really a blend of spices shaped by each culture.

4) Cuisines often share the same ideas.

Once you get into these cuisines, as you saw in your travel across the world, a lot of the time what makes up a dish from culture to culture has more in common than differences, which makes up your rule number four.

During my travel, people in different cultures often cook with the same idea using the local ingredient.

For example, biryanis, spice, cheese, and a dish like jambalaya is similar.

Flatbread, like roti, is similar to tortilla.

The similarities show that food brings culture together more than it separates them.

One ingredient used in a different form.

At the end of the day, it’s just one word. The idea, the concept, everything is the same, and the way of making is maybe a little bit different.

If you use those ingredients and spices and everything, the end result would be pretty much the same flavorful.

5) Balance is what makes a meal.

That end result can be generalized by people who don’t understand a specific cuisine, but your fifth and final rule talks about this idea of bringing harmony to any dish to fit the right situation.

What’s your rule number five?

The balance is...

A great dish relies on a few key elements working together in balance.

I would say flavor balance, texture, aroma, freshness and ingredients, techniques, harmony, the story behind the dish.

All these come together.

People do get scared of it.

I would say, don’t be.

You try many things in your life. Just try different cuisine.

The one thing that we follow at Curry Pinch is that we cook our meal as we cook for our loved ones.

I love that.

We don’t provide unhealthy food or give it to our family members. That’s the same concept I have when it comes to our guests.

Good for you, good for your health.

Thank you so much for sharing your Five Rules.

If people want to come by Curry Pinch or see some of the food you’re cooking, where can they go?

Walk-ins are always welcome.

They can visit our website at www.kurrypinch.com.

They can reserve through Resy. We would recommend doing a reservation. There are times we are fully booked.

And yeah, for everyone listening, that’s Curry with a K.

Shaheen, thank you so much. Congrats on everything and looking forward to swinging in very soon for a bite.

Thank you very much.

You’re always welcome.

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This week on Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with Julianne Fraser, founder and CEO of Dialogue New York, to talk about what it actually takes to protect your creativity in a world that’s trying to flatten it. We get into the tension between algorithms and originality, why setting boundaries with social media isn’t optional anymore, and how carving out real time for yourself can unlock better ideas than any scroll ever will. Julianne shares her Five Rules for Cultivating Creativity, from building guardrails around your digital life to creating space for “creative mornings” to trusting your own taste instead of chasing trends. It’s a conversation about getting back to yourself, doing the work offline, and making sure your ideas still feel like yours.

What I appreciate most about this conversation is how practical it is. There’s no fantasy version of creativity here. It’s about being intentional with your time, attention, and input. It’s about knowing when to step away, when to go outside, when to talk to people, and when to sit alone with a notebook to actually think. That balance is hard to find, especially when everything online is designed to pull you back in, but it’s the difference between reacting to the world and shaping your own point of view. Once you start to feel that shift, even in small ways, it changes how you show up in your work and in your life.

My latest profile for Fine Dining Lovers is on Chef Brad Alan Mathews, the chef and co-owner of Bar Le Cotê in Los Olivos, CA. He shares his lifelong love of food and music, and his journey to sobriety. Thank you to Paul Feinstein for his guidance and support with this piece. For anyone in the industry struggling with substances or looking for options for a different approach to a work/life balance, Ben’s Friends is a good place to start.

INTRODUCTION

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I sit down with Julianne Fraser, the founder and CEO of Dialogue New York, a digital media agency. She shares her Five Rules for Cultivating Creativity.

She talks about the irony of her process in setting social media guardrails, carving out time in anyone’s busy schedule for creative mornings, and that by following feelings and not trends will lead you to your best ideas. It’s a great conversation for anyone who’s looking to add more creativity into their life and to ground themselves with daily practices of making space to allow for new ideas. So let’s get into the rules.

OPENING CONVERSATION

Julianne, it is so nice to meet you. So great to see someone coming all the way to Brooklyn. I miss my hometown. Welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me. Excited to chat. I’m a child of the 80s and 90s. I still remember the DIY punk era of the hard line between creativity and brands. Today’s generation seems not to care about that. Why has creativity come to be such a commodity? Why do you think that shift happened?

I think it’s been a slow erosion of creativity over time. I’ve been in my career for 15 years in the digital space. Little by little, the way that social media has grown and the power of the algorithm has just kind of shrunk original creativity over time. This year, in the last five years with AI, it’s compounding a really frightening degree. It’s just the nature of technology and innovation.

What’s interesting is as we’re seeing it shrivel away in many facets of social media, I think people are really championing it. Such desire to get back to nostalgic, old ways of analog. I’m hoping for like a renaissance. I’m hopeful that people will go back to kind of old-fashioned ways of sparking their creativity.

IAN SCHRAGER & HOSPITALITY INSPIRATION

Looking backwards at people who might be inspirations for that spark, you worked with Ian Schrager, someone who turned the idea of going to a hotel into a story and experience. What did you take away from your time with him?

That was my most inspiring brand I’ve ever worked with in my career. What he did with the hospitality industry in the 80s, first with Morgan’s Hotel Group, really just kind of revolutionized the notion of a lobby as a space of socialization and inspiration.

Not only did he flip the way that people interacted with hotels, every single minute detail of his hotels brought to life this spirit. He has these guardian angels in the hallways at Hudson Hotel that look over his guests, or every single pen on every single property was black. Just like really old school rules of brand identity that led to these experiences that you cannot replicate, and so many hotel brands try.

From a marketer, I joined really early on in my career. It was just unbelievable gold to work with, to be able to leverage all of that storytelling.

BUILDING DIALOGUE

Storytelling and learning how to work with brands and to present them to people led you to being the founder of Dialogue, your digital brand marketing consulting agency. What unique offering did you want to bring to the marketplace that you weren’t seeing or that you felt there was a space to make a new name for yourself?

When I started my company, I had this core belief of what it takes to build community and a network of creative people. The word influencer can have so many different facets. The way we approach it can be a viral TikTok sensation, but also someone who has 10,000.

What I found really interesting is that our strategy and our approach has never shifted from day one. I think that’s the fundamentals of building relationships and human connection at scale, but never impacting the real human connection with these partners and also the creative campaigns that we’re concepting.

What I find most exciting this year specifically of what I’m working on with Dialogue is just how to strike that balance between being able to touch with more brands while still doing the most authentic, real relationship building, really creative narrative driving, and never sacrificing that.

Preaching to the choir. I absolutely love it. And I love that approach. The fact that you’re offering a take that both understands that we are dealing with the absolute shift in the way that we are creating, but also staying true to the core tenant, which is storytelling, which is why I’m so excited for you to be sharing your five rules for cultivating creativity.

RULE #1: ESTABLISH SOCIAL MEDIA GUARDRAILS

And in a world where we are in this post slop never ending stream of content, it’s easy for your brain to just go absolutely on the fritz while you doom scroll. Your first rule talks about the importance of setting up some boundaries when you go hunting for inspiration across different social channels. What’s your rule number one?

It’s not lost to me the irony that I own a digital marketing agency and my first rule is establish social media guardrails. I love it. I bring this to my team. I believe in this wholeheartedly.

Social media is beautiful and inspiring and incredible. And I even think from my personal creative, when I’m really into interior design or cooking, I’m finding the most incredible artisans in Rotterdam to build custom shelves that I never would have discovered if not through Pinterest or Instagram or whatnot. There are these really beautiful platforms to find inspiration, but if you’re not conscious in how you’re engaging with them, it just completely numbs your brains.

I have two young daughters. When I get home, I put my phone in this container. I have to be so physical to put it behind two physical doors. I’m so intentional because if that doesn’t happen, these devices are designed for addictions. At night, I’m putting my phone on airplane mode at nine o’clock. I’m plugging it in outside of my bedroom so I’m not shifting to that. I’ve found over the years I have to be really strict.

So creating whatever those guardrails are that best suit you, that’s rule number one in my mind. Once you create those guardrails and you get off your phone, you’ll start to realize that you have an extra 15, 30, 40 minutes of the day that you thought you were so busy that you cut things out like leaving your desk or, as someone like me, leaving your home.

RULE #2: FOSTER YOUR “WEAK TIES”

Your second rule talks about the importance of reestablishing those routines that get you out into the world. What’s your rule number two?

As convenience has, and you know this as a New Yorker, you literally can get anything at any time in the city. Uber Eats, you no longer are going to pick up your Indian takeout down the street. We’re skipping past the cashier at Whole Foods and we’re going straight to the checkout computers. We’re texting friends instead of calling and speaking to them.

And so I think the more and more and more convenience is prioritized, we’re cutting out this notion of weak ties. Weak ties aren’t friends. They’re not coworkers. They’re not even acquaintances. They’re just people that you’ll bump into in a day, like the barista at your cafe or like the front desk at your gym, whatever it might be.

And it’s really the fabric of a lot of our creativity and inspiration and speaking to people. And I really try to slow down and chit chat with the woman who drops off our mail. She’s wonderful, and it’s those little mini interactions that are really getting us outside of our bubble and off our phones and sparking things that we might not think of or know.

RULE #3: CREATE SPACE WITH CREATIVE MORNINGS

Setting up your day for success is such an important part of really getting things done. Creating the space to actually create is a core tenet of rule number three.

I’ve instilled what I call creative mornings for my team of 10. I love it. We’ve done this for five, six years. And I really, really believe in the power of it, not only for my team’s creative output, but from all of our personal satisfaction.

It’s a full morning out of the month where all of us take three hours on a Tuesday morning. They can do whatever will inspire them creatively as long as they’re off their phones and their computers. They can go to a morning matinee movie, they can browse shops in West Village. That is the point.

Because I’ve found the most creative impactful business decisions have come out of those mornings by myself with a piece of paper just working through something I’ve been blocked on that I haven’t had the mental space to actually think about.

More emphasis on the importance of all of my team fostering our offline influence, our offline lifestyles, creating that work-life balance so that we have the space to be doing creative work. Because if not, everything will become the exact same in the digital marketing world. How we differentiate ourselves is through our creative minds and our personal experiences offline.

Those experiences offline cannot be underestimated from the importance of fueling your own creativity.

RULE #4: CURATE YOUR CULTURAL PALETTE

I many times have tried to go outside the things that I know that I like and then feel that I’ve wasted time in hunting for new inspiration. But I know that I still need to look for new things that are going to inspire me.

Your fourth rule talks about how understanding what you like and what’s on your radar is a good way to find something new to inspire you.

It’s about curating your cultural palette. And I read this in Rick Rubin’s book a couple years ago. Everybody’s palette is going to be different. We don’t all need to be doing the same.

And I think that also is such a trap in social media where people are showcasing how they’re getting inspired and just someone copies another influencer’s exact date. I think it has to be so personalized to find what it is that makes your heart sing.

I’m obsessed with cooking and food. It just makes me so happy. Making sure that I’m carving out time offline where I’m testing recipes or I’m going to a market or I’m going to a new restaurant. The more that I’m expanding that cultural palette of mine, not only from a business perspective, it makes me tenfold a better consultant to a food brand, to a fashion brand. All of that taste and experience funnels into our work.

But also just from a personal satisfaction standpoint, I really can feel these moments where I’m in my creative flow and I’m learning. I really find moments where I’m learning still. There’s curiosity behind creativity. We have to continue to learn and discover new things as part of this.

RULE #5: FOLLOW FEELINGS, NOT TRENDS

Discovering those new things and knowing what to follow, your fifth and final rule talks about, for lack of a better word, your gut, refining that and knowing when to listen to it when something piques your interest. What’s your rule number five?

It’s following your feelings and not trends. The power of these algorithms, it’s becoming so homogenous, it’s starting to freak me out. Everyone’s hair and makeup looks the same. Everyone’s plating their food the same way. Everyone is dressing like Carolyn Bessette because of Love Story the TV show and backward hats and polos for all the boys.

Everyone’s homes are identical with boucle. I love all those styles, of course. The trends are amplified tenfold because of social media. And so I’m really trying to spark ways to follow what makes my heart sing rather than what I’m seeing.

When I was designing my daughter’s room, I made a conscious effort to 100% pull inspiration from analog sources. So I purposely did not be on social media. It’s led to this really funky, weird universe of fuchsia pink and cherry red that is so unique that I’ve never seen anywhere. And I’m so excited for her to live in that universe of inspiration and creativity.

But I never would have thought of that because if you go in Pinterest and you do Arch Digest, Child’s Nursery, you’re going to get a standard rulebook to follow and it’ll be beautiful, but it won’t make your heart sing. So I really look for those moments and carve out ways to really feel the feelings of creativity beyond just the trend.

CLOSING

I deeply appreciate you sharing those feelings and the approach. If people want to see what you’re up to or what Dialogue is up to, where can they go, how can they follow along?

Best to follow along Julianne Fraser on Instagram, Dialogue NYC on Instagram as well. We’re going to be going through a full brand universe refresh. Those would be the best spots, I’d say.

Congratulations on everything. I look forward to seeing what comes next, and hopefully next time I’m back in Brooklyn, we can grab a coffee.

I would love that. Thank you. This is so fun.

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In this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, I head to the Hudson Valley to hang out with food writer, photographer, gardener, forager, and fermenter Peter Barrett. He shares his Five Rules for Nurturing a Real Cooking Practice. We talk about why growing even one herb on a windowsill can change the way you think about food, why practice matters more than perfection, how to stop hiding behind cookbooks, and why taking a food Sabbath can make the rest of your week easier. It’s a conversation about cooking with intention, but also about building a life that feels more connected, more grounded, and a little less performative.

The best cooking habits are the ones that fit your actual life, not the fantasy version of it. Not everyone is going to mill flour, tend a massive garden, or spend Sunday making twelve jars of pickles, and that’s fine. Sometimes the win is roasting one chicken, growing basil in a pot, or learning three meals you can make without thinking. The point is not to turn your kitchen into a stage set for Instagram, it’s to create a rhythm that supports you. Cooking should lower the temperature of your life, not raise it. It should make your week easier, your table fuller, and your relationship to food more personal. The goal is not perfection. It’s finding a way of feeding yourself that feels sustainable, satisfying, and yours.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Introduction

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I head up to the Hudson Valley to sit down with food writer, photographer, gardener, forager, and fermenter, Peter Barrett, who’s here to share his 5 Rules for Nurturing a Real Cooking Practice.

He talks about how growing just one thing can change your perspective on life, that there is no excuse for giving up on yourself in the kitchen without loads of practice, and that being gentle on yourself when it comes to cooking is a real recipe for success.

This is a great interview for anyone who’s looking to get started in the kitchen or for anyone who’s hit a lull and looking to find some new inspiration.

So let’s get into the rules.

Peter’s Journey

Peter, so good to see you.

I can’t believe it’s already been a few months. Thanks for making time for the show.

That’s my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

You’ve spent decades growing and foraging and preserving, cooking as much of your own food as possible. What drives you to do this?

I was in the artwork. I moved up to the Hudson Valley from Brooklyn 20 years ago now. I put in a garden. It was one of the first things I did.

My grandfather had taught me to make pickles when I was a little kid because he was from Poland. And when he grew up, that was a survival strategy. That had nothing to do with hipsters or yuppies or anything. It was staying alive through a long, hard winter.

I just got more and more into the growing and the cooking and the fermenting. And I started to learn about mushrooms and other wild edible things.

I started writing a blog just as a sort of journal to keep track of my kitchen exploits. And then over the course of the ensuing years, I just did more and more of that.

I got one magazine gig, then another magazine gig. I’m working on a book with Dominique Crenn right now. We’re supposed to go to France next month.

So it just sort of morphed. As the art tapered off, the food thing sort of rose to meet it.

Cooking Across Countries

You’ve cooked a lot in America, in the Hudson Valley, and you’ve been able to travel to Italy and go into France with Dominique Crenn.

Country to country, do you find a difference in this type of approach of growing and preserving and really understanding the food that you eat?

It’s simplistic, but I think places that have winter have different fermentation cultures than places that don’t.

You can’t f**k around with the absence of food when the ground is frozen, of course.

If you think about Korea and Northern Europe, Eastern Europe, the pickle game is strong, and the pickle game is strong because they had to.

There’s what they call sottoglio in Italian, which is where they preserve things under oil, or sottaccetto, which is in jars of vinegar.

You wander around in most parts of Italy, south of Alto Adige, and everyone has a garden that’s more or less year-round.

It’s a different approach to preservation. It’s less mandatory and baked into the cuisine, if that makes any sense.

Why Sharing Matters

One of the things I’ve loved about your writing and your storytelling is that you really want to share this knowledge with people across the world and people who want to get into this type of practice themselves.

Why is that so important to you to share this knowledge and to teach people that they can get started, even if it seems daunting at first?

Honestly, because I’m sitting here right now talking to you on the basis of my self-guided passion.

I am driven to learn about food because I love it, because it fascinates me, whether it’s wild food, domestic food, different processes, transforming it with microbes or other preservation methods.

My kitchen has now taken the place of my studio. It feels the way my studio used to when I was a painter. It’s just incredibly exciting to me. It’s fun.

Food intersects with every other area of human endeavor. What’s your specialty? What’s your aptitude? What’s your passion? Food intersects with it.

And so there’s always a way to reach people by relating via food.

And I, because I’m a self-taught home cook, I can meet people where they are because I don’t speak. I mean, I speak tweezer, but I do not use tweezer, if you know what I’m saying.

Rule One: Grow Something

That democratic approach, that self-starting nature of learning to cook, the fact that you didn’t go to culinary school is so common among so many people who love food today, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for nurturing a real cooking practice.

It’s easy to look at Instagram and see these gorgeous gardens and these well manicured plots, and it can be daunting to even get started.

And your first rule talks about the idea of just making something happen with your own hands. What’s your rule number one?

Rule number one is grow something.

I have a ridiculously big garden. But if you go to the very far other end of the spectrum, you have a sunny windowsill. Grow a pot of chives, grow one thing.

Parsley doesn’t need a whole lot of light. If you’ve got a little more space, grow a few pots, even just herbs.

If you have a fire escape, you could even upgrade to a little pot of hot peppers or cherry tomatoes, which do well in containers.

Nurturing another living thing, even if you don’t have kids, even if you don’t have pets, nurturing a living thing is good for you.

I use my lawn the same way. I don’t spray anything because it’s insanity to spray poison on your lawn.

Dandelions are one of my favorite examples of wild food that everybody understands, everybody recognizes it, and they’re really f*****g good to eat and good for you.

A lot of what I come to share about food is that all these win-win scenarios involving simplicity, frugality, ancient technologies for preservation that also add nutritional value, and they connect you to your food.

Connecting you to your food is a way to further your own human connection.

So if you can start from nothing to something, grow one more thing than you currently are growing.

Rule Two: Practice

Getting started is definitely a big first step. Growing the one thing, making bread once, trying out your pickle recipe once is a great way to get involved with your own kitchen and your own life and live with more intent.

The problem is that if you fail once or even twice or even five times, there is that desire to give up.

Your rule number two talks about the importance about keeping at it.

Practice.

There’s a reason why doctors and lawyers and yogis, it’s the word practice to describe what they do.

Definitionally, it means there’s no destination. It’s only journey.

It’s a really important perspective to have when you come to cooking.

You can learn a lot in your 70, 80 years as a home cook.

There’s a lot to be said for the kind of discipline that puts you in the kitchen every day that you can physically get in there.

And there are lots of ways you can make really good food for yourself.

Making a commitment to honor yourself and the people whose health and wellbeing you’re at least partially responsible for by showing up in your own kitchen and doing what it takes to supply your kitchen with the ingredients that you need to make healthy, wholesome food.

Rule Three: Ween Yourself off Cookbooks

The idea of creating this safe space in your kitchen is a really good practice.

And my kitchen’s full of cookbooks, which I love to go to and to read and gather for inspiration.

Same.

But at some point I go, all right, I got to get my nose out of this. I got to cook. I got to make these recipes work for me, which is a big part of your rule number three.

Wean yourself off of cookbooks.

I think of cookbooks as somewhere between training wheels and sheet music.

There’s a lot of knowledge that is assumed in your average cookbook.

I think that as a home cook, finding ways to give yourself that knowledge by first and foremost, giving yourself the permission to fail is really the only way to do it.

And that goes back to the practice thing, right?

If you show up every day, yeah, baking bread is not always easy.

When I teach baking, I tell people, if you can commit to baking 10 times in the next two months, you are then forgiven for giving up on it.

But you gotta do it 10 times in the next two months.

Try to get it into your muscles. Try to get it into your life.

Understand the rhythms, in my case, usually sourdough, and how you can factor that in given job and school and other stuff you have to do.

You can let it hang out in the fridge for long periods. So it’s very forgiving.

Then if you still don’t like it or you can’t make it work, you have my permission to give up.

But you can’t just do it once and f**k it up and say, I’m not a baker.

Recipes are great. Use a recipe the first time, then try and do it using the force the next time.

Or try to substitute something the next time.

Understanding that this is going to behave in a similar way because it’s related to that. It has similar properties.

Then you’re cooking the way these mythical grandmas that everyone likes to invoke are cooking.

Rule Four: Observe a Food Sabbath

I found that once I’ve gone on a long stretch of cooking, especially if I’m doing something big for the holidays, I need a break because I get tired or I’ll get lazy and I’ll make a mistake or I’ll do shortcuts.

And taking that break and giving yourself the permission to not have to cook everything is a fundamental value of rule number four.

You have to be gentle with yourself.

We all have to be gentle with ourselves and each other.

Take a break, order something. It’s totally fine.

My fourth rule, rather, is observe a food Sabbath.

That can mean taking a break from cooking, but in my case, honestly, I refer to it as a day where you turn off media and you spend a day or half a day in your kitchen front-loading the labor for a week’s worth of healthy home cooking.

Let’s say you roast a chicken. Let’s say you cook a pot of beans. Let’s say you bake a loaf or two of bread.

Maybe you make a jar of something pickled that’s local and fresh at the time.

And then fill in the blanks, a couple other things maybe. Just simple, make a jar of jam if it’s that season or whatever.

And by the end of even just a few hours, this sounds daunting, but these things don’t take a lot of work and a lot of them happen to you concurrently.

By the end of that period, you’ve connected with the ingredient.

And so you have all this beautiful custom control at a nuanced level.

Rule Five: No F*****g AI

I love this idea of putting down technology and just getting in the kitchen.

Your fifth and final rule talks about ignoring this other rising technological advancement. What’s your rule number five?

Rule number five is no f*****g AI.

Every day we learn more about how horrendous it is for every living thing.

I’m not disputing that maybe it helped you do your taxes this year. You know, fine. Sure. Zygazunt, I don’t give a s**t about that.

What I’m talking about is the fact that we know that this tool is using water and electricity that human beings need to live. And it is sucking it up at increasingly voracious and unsustainable rates.

We know that relying on it makes us dumber. It causes cognitive impairment.

Robots don’t understand food, understand anything about humanity, even though they’ve gotten really good at sounding like they’re conscious and they’re talking to you, they’re not.

They’re probability models. They only know what words are most likely to follow the word before it.

It’s not a brain. It’s not an entity, it’s an algorithm.

It doesn’t like you, it doesn’t care about you, it is not conscious, and it’s trying to kill us all.

So keep it the f**k out of your kitchen.

Closing

I’m gonna leave us on that passionate note.

Peter, it is so good to see you and to hear from you.

If people want to follow your writings, your adventures, get some intentional cooking tips from you, where can they go?

Things on Bread is one of the two newsletters. Flavor Freaks is the other one. And I am cookblog on Instagram.

Incredible.

Well, thank you, Peter. Appreciate you making the time.

Definitely going to be doing some front-loading cooking in the next few weeks so I can have a much easier and more relaxing time in the kitchen during the week.

I like it.

And Darin, thank you so much. I like your show and I’m thrilled to be part of it.

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This week on Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with Harry Posner and Natalie Dial of Tomat, a restaurant that doesn’t just talk about seasonality, it lives it. We get into what it actually takes to grow your own ingredients while running a restaurant, from the early mistakes to the unexpected wins. They break down their Five Rules for Having Your Own Restaurant Garden, including why experimentation matters more than perfection, how to think realistically about what you can grow, and what it means to truly close the loop on waste. It’s practical, a little obsessive, and exactly the kind of conversation that makes you rethink where your food comes from.

There’s something deeply grounding about growing even a small piece of what you eat. It shifts your understanding of time, effort, and value in a way no delivery app ever will. You don’t need a full backyard or a restaurant budget to start. A simple planter box with herbs on a windowsill or balcony is enough. Basil, thyme, parsley, things you actually use. You water it, you cut from it, you watch it come back. That loop, small as it is, changes how you cook and how you think about food. It makes dinner feel earned in the best way.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Introduction

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I sit down with Harry Posner and Natalie Dial, the chef and CEO, respectively, of LA’s Tomat. Located in the Westchester part of the city, Tomat has the distinct pleasure of being here on the LA Times 101 Best Restaurant List and was named one of Esquire’s Best New Restaurants in America.

They share their five rules for having your own restaurant garden and talk about the importance of experimenting with the produce you plant, understanding the ratio to reality of what you can grow and consume in the restaurant, and give you the perfect timing to plan for each growing and eating season.

It’s a fantastic conversation for anyone who’s fantasized about having their own garden, either at a restaurant or at home, and the desire to grow what you eat. So let’s get into the rules.

Meeting the Guests

Harry, Natalie, it is so nice to meet you. Thank you for making the time before your impending bundle of joy comes to join us in the world.

We’re so glad to be here. Thanks for having us. Thank you very much.

The Origin of Tomat

It’s easy to say that most chefs or restaurateurs, especially in California, are driven by farm fresh ingredients from the market. You literally named your restaurant with a nod to one of California’s most famous pieces of produce. Why go all in on this concept.

It wasn’t even really inspired by the piece of produce itself, other than Harry and I both have that nickname, had it growing up serendipitously, independently of each other, because we turned red in the sun and looked like tomats or tomatoes. However, the official, the initial line before we were like, actually, the fun reason is a way better explanation, was that we are going to grow our own stuff.

We’re in California. We’re using as much local farmer’s market produce as possible. And our logo is a slice of tomato with a stem, the seeds. And we’re trying to show you we’re growing, we’re getting the best stuff. That’s why we’re Tamar.

Why Grow Your Own Ingredients

The dedication to the bit is something that we are very big on here at Five Rules. You guys are also very dedicated to growing your own produce, vegetables. Why is it so important to you to go that early and deep into the process of the ingredients you bring into the restaurant.

We work with some of the most amazing farmers, and there are some absolutely amazing people here that really work alongside us, especially when curating a menu.

My upbringing, being born in LA, then moving to England, my parents wanted to grow all of their own vegetables. I remember as a kid, we would go around and pick all the loquats and we had a loquat tree where we used to live. And it’s just so much fun. Now that we’ve got kids, you want to indoctrinate them in growing to show you what produce you have and how good it can be.

The Value of Growing Even One Thing

Restaurateurs these days are faced with so many challenges. Some might not even be able to make it to the farmer’s market while they’re spinning all these different plates in the air. The idea of starting and making your own garden can seem even more daunting than just running a regular restaurant. Why do you think it’s important to grow at least one thing so it can supply at least one thing to a restaurant.

It shows you how much effort goes into producing that one thing. I love that.

In the grand scheme of things, we have a tiny little plot. You think, okay, how can I get the most benefit. If I have a three feet by three feet plot, okay, I’ll just have things that grow upwards. I’m not going to plant one carrot, but maybe if I plant a bushel of parsley or thyme, that’ll be more than I’ll ever need.

So you just think how much effort goes into it and why the prices of certain things are so much at the farmer’s market, and why being in California, we have access to some of the best produce in the world.

Rule #1: Experimentation

I love how dedicated you are to this practice of growing your own ingredients, but then also encouraging others to do the same, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for having your own restaurant garden.

You touched on it a little bit earlier. Having access to LA’s farmer’s markets will give you access to some of the best strawberries, oranges, kale, apples that you may not feel you need to grow because at best you might just match their quality, which frees you up for your rule number one.

Our rule number one is experiment experimentation. We wanted to have a little plot that, yes, we’ll have some things that are maybe more staples, like the herbs that we can always continue to pick year round, but we have varieties of citrus, pomegranate, berries that even our favorite berry guy at the farmer’s market is like, oh, I’ve never had that and never grown that.

And now I’m being like, oh, well, we grew it here. You can grow it there. Do you want to grow it for us. And he’s like, yeah, let’s do it. And that is actually our Logan berries.

That’s incredible. When we moved from London, what blew my mind about the farmer’s markets there is that you could get way hotter chilies than you ever can here, which feels kind of ironic. And then they have this green called a spring green, which is this bizarre mix of a cabbage and a kale that I have never found anywhere near a green as good here. I’ve been obsessed with it since.

We have seeds. And one of our farmers is growing it for us. Incredible produce.

Rule #2: Grow in Feasible Quantities

Once you get a year or two of growing your own produce and actually having the doors open to your restaurant, you’ll have an idea of what people are eating, what they’re drawn to, but then also how much you need to grow so that you are balancing it out with the space you have and what you want to plant and what people are actually going to eat, which is a component of your rule number two.

Rule number two, grow in feasible quantities. The garden itself has been in the works, shall we say, for the last five years. Essentially, since we moved out here, there was one year the restaurant was stuck in plan check. We were testing a few different things. We put in a whole row of cucumbers.

Sure, we may have grown around 400 pounds of cucumbers that year. That’s a lot of pickles. A lot of pickles and a lot of bribery to neighbors, to friends. I don’t think there are enough people who eat cucumbers in our neighborhood.

We can grow a good amount of stuff like herbs. We can use a ton of herbs. Being able to just like, oh, we’re out of herbs. Let’s run to the garden. And pomegranate, we have one pomegranate tree. We get five pomegranates from it this year. It’s still in development.

You just need to be aware that certain things can go crazy. If I’m producing 1000 pounds of kale, am I going to eat 1000 pounds of kale. Maybe.

Rule #3: Close the Loop

That idea of not wanting to waste anything at a restaurant, especially when you’re growing, it does weigh heavily on a lot of conversations these days about creating a system that can support itself, which plays a role in your rule number three.

Rule number three is, if you have a garden, use it to try to close the loop on your own waste in whatever house or restaurant you’re in. That was an ethos that we had from the beginning, before we opened, before we even started the concept of the garden or of Tamat. We wanted everything to be as sustainable as possible.

And of course that starts with food practices within your kitchen. So of course, all of our food scraps are composted. We have coffee in the morning. All of our grounds go right into the garden. We even compost our menus.

We need all sorts of different types of composting materials. You have a lot of things that get wet as they start to break down, and then you need a bit of dry. Our menus, we print them every day because things change so much. It also helps us think about, can we reuse these vegetable or fruit scraps for something else.

And oftentimes they go right into our cocktail program for infusions. We’ve also noticed that our black trash bin doesn’t smell nearly as bad when we’re separating things out, so it feels like we’re doing it right.

Rule #4: Get Involved in Urban Planning

Doing it right and planning the design of your garden is a lot of times where people get really intimidated. Your fourth rule talks about why it is important to get involved with that process. What’s your rule number four.

Our rule number four is get involved in urban planning. And I get why that’s intimidating, and it feels like, how do you possibly get a foot in the door.

We started with this piece of land before we even ripped the concrete out. It was a disused car lot for the airport rental vehicles, and it just looked like an absolute trash yard. We sent soil out to labs to get tested. It all came back as if it were just sterile. Nothing had leeched through, thank God, but also there was just no sign of life.

For the past seven decades, it had been the other end of the spectrum. Exactly. The big thing with gardens is how do you water it. It’s a very expensive thing if you’re using potable water.

And on Westchester Parkway, which is a huge boulevard parallel to the runway at LAX, all of that is watered and irrigated with the purple pipeline that is recycled water from Hyperion. Exactly. So we’re one block away from where that stops. And we were like, we have to get that water.

It has nutrients in it, great for what we’re growing. It feels like a really important thing to do in terms of sustainability and our own economic costs of what’s going into this garden, but also advocating for other plots of land around Sepulveda and where we are to have access to that too.

So we, it took a long time, but we worked with the city, DWP, got our council people involved and got that pipe extended across Sepulveda. That’s incredible. It was really fun once we got it done. Once we got it done, it was amazing.

Rule #5: Plan Six Months Ahead

Being able to think about options and different ways of planning and approaching how to grow your own garden at a restaurant is also a giant part of the process. Your fifth and final rule talks about putting in that mental effort while looking further down the road. What’s your rule number five.

Rule number five is plan six months ahead. Add it to the list. Just think constantly about what you’re doing in the future. You have to. If you want to harvest something in September, you’ve got to plant it in January, February.

We’re very much telling all of our chefs, do you guys want to plant anything. What do you remember growing up with cooking with or something that we don’t know about that your parents used to make for you all the time. Give us some thoughts on what you want to add to the menu.

And we’ve had chefs be like, hey, I got these seeds from grandma or whoever. There was actually a guy who was hanging out really early morning by the garden. He sees me and he’s like, this is the most amazing thing I’ve seen. Here, I’ve got some chiltepin pepper seeds. I want to give them to you to try and grow. They’re the native of Chile to North America.

Incredible. We want to be planting and harvesting in six months time. It gives inspiration to our staff, to our bar program, to everyone in the restaurant and be like, okay, it’s a super seasonal restaurant, but we’re also growing our own stuff and I can have an effect on what we grow and have a little bit of ownership in this whole program when they’re like, oh, this is what you planted for me and now we’ve got it.

Closing

Really really fun. It’s such a beautiful idea, this intent to grow and to support your restaurant and the workers there and the creativity. Harry, Natalie, congratulations on everything.

If people want to come by the restaurant, see what you’re growing in the garden, just follow along with what you’re up to, where can they go.

You can go to our website, tomat.la, or follow us on Instagram at tamat.la, or you can just come right in.

Well, I will be crossing town very soon to come have a meal with you and to walk through your lovely garden. See you soon.

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This week on Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with journalist, screenwriter, and author Ella Quittner, whose new book, Obsessed with the Best, digs into what it means to care deeply about what you make. We get into her Five Rules for Telling a Good Story, from finding your angle to chasing the emotional gut punch, and why approaching every subject with humanity is non-negotiable. Ella breaks down how she moves between journalism, fiction, and food writing without losing her voice, and shares the practical ways she builds stories from scratch, even when the idea isn’t fully there yet. It’s a conversation about process, discipline, and the reality of making something worth reading.

I love this episode because it cuts through the romantic version of writing and gets into the actual work. Ella is deep in it, doing the reps, figuring it out in real time, and she’s generous enough to explain how it actually happens. There’s no posturing here, just three rats in a trench coat sharing clear, usable insights for anyone who wants to write and not just talk about writing. If you’re trying to find your voice, or even understand what that means, this is the kind of conversation that gives you a way in and makes the whole thing feel possible.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Introduction

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I sit down with journalist, screenwriter, and author Ella Quittner, whose new book, Obsessed with the Best, is out now on HarperCollins wherever books are sold. She shares her five rules for telling a good story. She talks about the importance of approaching each story with humanity to narrow in on the gut punch of every narrative and that when you find your own voice in your own words, that’s when you’ll find real success in your writing. It is a great conversation for anyone looking to share stories they love, to elevate the words they write, and for anyone who’s thinking about writing something for the first time. So let’s get into the rules.

Meeting Ella Quittner

Ella, it is pretty crazy that this isn’t the first time we’re meeting because I feel like we have all of the same colleagues and friends in the food scene. I agree and I feel mad at them for not introducing us. I’ve been reading a lot of your work for years. What I’ve always found is that storytelling is such an essential part of what you do and what you write about.

Early Storytelling

Do you remember the first story outside of your own life that you wanted to tell? When I was a child, my sister and I used to make comic books, my older sister Zoe and I. She would illustrate Mm-hmm. really uproariously funny. Love it. That was the first story I wanted to tell, which is just being a young child, feeling humiliation, but also delight at my grandma ordering a knish at a deli.

The Emotional Duality of Writing

So much of personal writing can be humiliating and exalting. empowering and lonely. There really is this duality in that act of creativity, especially when it comes down to just you and either a computer or a pen and a piece of paper. How do you balance those juxtaposed emotions and stay motivated?

The emotions of wanting to quit and give up and feeling like a failure and self-doubt, but then also that egotistical, maybe I keep going or that thing where you have this inflated sense of the importance of what you’re doing. All those you mean? Your words, not mine, but yes.

the older i’ve gotten and the more i’ve written professionally across different fields and genres whether it’s journalism screenwriting fiction food writing cookbooks etc the more i’ve been able to learn to separate my expectations from the outcomes and not seek external validation but just try to create work that i’m proud of that goes a really long way toward letting you feel less tortured in the process because i remember being in my 20s being like oh my god i wish i was Helen Rosner i wish i was David today i’m sorry i wish i I wish I was all these people and I’m just some f*****g idiot in the East Village trying to write 400 words.

Once you embrace, why am I doing this? No one’s making me do it. It doesn’t pay well. I don’t have to be doing it. So there must be something that I think I’m uniquely bringing to it. and try and separate yourself from the outcome of anyone reading it. Is anyone going to care? I mean, you do want to add something to the conversation, but I think separating yourself from how it’s received and caring about what the reception is going to be goes a long way.

Finding that pride and ownership of what do I want to say helps because then of course you can only say it the way you know how. You can’t say it like George Saunders or Helen Ross or David Stairs. You could only say it like Darren. Or Ella. Or Ella.

Writing and the Creative Process

Being able to separate yourself from the process and the creativity and the creation is probably the most healthy attitude to have in going to releasing your debut cookbook, Obsessed with the Best. I loved it. I thought it was an excellent balance between recipes and essays and anecdotes. How did you land on the right mix to make it what you truly wanted to say?

That was a tricky balance because I’m a verbose person and there’s no limit to how deep I’ll go on a topic or how many tangents or reporting whims I’ll follow. And I will find a story in every single one of them. That’s just who I am. Of course.

Despite all best efforts. I have a very producorial brain. So knowing I have to do all this stuff. So how can I fit in the stuff I want to do, but still turn in the other stuff as well that is more time consuming or labor intensive, that’s less flashy work.

Being able to produce, being able to be your own boss and editor is such a key part to hitting any deadlines and to really getting the pieces you want out in the world and figuring out what you want to say, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for telling a good story.

Rule #1: Call Your Sister

Many of us who’ve written, especially in the food world, find themselves wanting to tell the same story that other journalists or people want to tell. Your first rule talks about the key importance of making any story your own. What’s your rule number one?

Rule number one is call your sister. Go on. This is sort of a cheeky, euphemistic way of saying it. What is your angle? You have to identify that.

This applies not just to journalism, where if you’re pitching an editor, you do have to pitch a very, very specific story. It should be an idea that you’re especially well suited to it. explore it should be built into that angle but also applies to a book a novel a television show a feature script a proposal for a cookbook it’s not enough to say i just want to explore this topic it’s an interesting topic you need a lens.

So i think about it like i’m going to call my sister and tell them a story i wouldn’t call my sister to tell her a funny story that happened at work last week and just start that conversation going hey zoe hey clementine funny story or you know work work’s a topic we should talk about right.

I would drop them into a specific scene with my specific perspective and a specific mood. And I would tell that story so that every piece of it is calibrated to set up to the punchline. I don’t think this is advice that only applies to funny stories. If I was going to call someone and tell them an emotional story, I’m going to calibrate it similarly just using different levers.

So I call it call your sister because if I’m stuck on an idea and I don’t know what the angle on my topic is, I think, okay, I’m going to call my sister. How would I tell her? I think having that angle, especially when your sister or sibling is like, I got 30 seconds for you, for you to keep my attention. Literally. Is really important.

That being said, when you do hit a certain level of career or you have a good relationship with an editor, you can pitch a little bit more topic when there’s trust that you’re going to dig into a person or a theme to find out the story that you want to tell.

Rule #2: Collect a Giant Pile of Details

Which ties directly into your rule number two. That’s true. And I will go into two, but I also think it’s worth saying you don’t want to have a preconceived conclusion when you pitch an editor. You want to have a lens and a POV and some ideas about why this might be the case. Yes. But you do want to be really open to gathering, especially in the nonfiction space, gathering a bunch of information and exploring what conclusion that leads you to.

Which does lead to rule number two. If you simply can’t identify your angle, collect a giant pile of details. If I’m having trouble figuring out the in and out of a scene or what a pilot should look like or how to structure journalism piece or what that core thesis leading into it that I want to test and report out is I will make tons of notes for myself.

Like I will scribble in a journal or an iPhone note. I will interview 15 people. The whole purpose of this reporting and brainstorming and I’ll read another book. I’ll read another article. I’ll go on Wikipedia. I’ll watch a TV show. I’ll watch a movie. It’s just trying to figure out what is jumping out as interesting and important.

And then in a secondary sense, what is supporting what is interesting and what is important. It’s also pattern identification. If you don’t know exactly what the story is, is sometimes talking to a bunch of people and realizing, okay, they’re all consumers of these new meal replacement products that look like Soylent, but kind of yassified for millennials.

And they’re all telling me that the reason they’re buying them is because they’re really overstimulated by this overconsumption, max content, hellscape we live in. And they’re all telling me that these things are saving them time. That’s helpful, right? That’s like a pattern. That’s people saying this is one reason.

It might not be the only reason. And you know, it’s only five people saying that. So it might not be the end all be all of the story, but it’s information that will help you then think, okay, that’s a backbone of what I’m putting together.

Rule #3: Approach Your Story with Humanity

Connecting your story through the way that people actually live and how they feel about it is really important. It has been said that we live in a cynical world and it’s very easy to come in with some snark or preconceived judgments and really find the negative aspect of it.

Your third rule talks about having an open heart when you go into writing. What’s your rule number three? Rule number three is approach your story with humanity.

I agree. I think it’s very easy to be judgmental or in my case, overly cynical. I do think one of the best ways you can be of service to any story is really try to understand everyone’s perspectives and have empathy or sympathy for other points of view. Agreed.

Situations are so rarely black and white. So of course, this applies to nonfiction and journalism and the people you’re interviewing. But I think it especially applies to fiction and screenwriting. I think it’s a failure to not let every character be fully formed and nuanced. Otherwise, you end up with a story that’s so one dimensional and boring, no one can relate to it.

When there is no one who can relate to an actual story, you lose the people completely.

Rule #4: Find the Gut Punch

A lot of the times when I think about writing, I think about the opening and that very classic five paragraph essay, that universal line that brings everyone in. But there is a part that comes in every narrative that is the key moment that really shows off what you’re trying to tell differently and in a unique way that no one else could.

What’s your rule number four? Rule number four is close your eyes and just imagine the gut punch. All the time. It could be this deep emotional moment where you’re tearing up. It could be a punchline. It could be a shocking reveal.

What is your intended emotional effect? Because you need to know what that is so that you can fiddle with the dials that can amplify it, tamp it down, create twists and turns, build tension and pace it in a way that we’re leading up to it before the reader wants to put it down. And then when you get to that point, have that max impact that you’re intending.

Pacing is such a huge part of writing. Every book is going to tell you a different way to pace your story and you yourself are going to find what works best for you.

Rule #5: Don’t Be Bound by Rules

It took me until college till I found my voice, which is to say for your fifth and final rule that there are many ways to tell a story. Yeah. What’s your rule number five?

Rule number five is listen to everybody’s rules and try them out, but don’t feel bound by them. Yes. Especially mine, by the way. I’m aware of the hypocrisy of this being my rule. I’m just three rats in a trench coat. I don’t know anything all your life worth. try to give you advice on becoming a better writer.

And a lot of it is fantastic. And a lot of it is coming from a good place. People really do want to help you get your ideas out there in a legible way. Of course. But there is no one size fits all to tell a story, write a write a journalism feature call your sister and tell a good story you might bring something really particular to a story that someone’s pre-existing rules might not apply to so you should feel open to that.

When you’re trying to work your way up say you’re just out of college and you want to start getting some bylines and real publications you can build up your essay of Of course, you’re going to have to follow some rules in order to climb ladders. Of course.

But if it’s a story that you’re passionate about that you’re crafting just for you, you should give yourself the freedom to do it however you want, at least in the first brush.

Closing

Ella, if people want to buy the book, check out your writing, see what you’re up to out in the world, where can they go? They can buy the book by searching Obsessed with the Best, Ella Quittner, walking into any bookstore, and they can find me on Instagram at E-Q-U-I-T-T-N-E-R.

Next time we’re in the same city, we’re going to shame all the people that didn’t introduce us by having a cup of coffee together. Congratulations on everything. I can’t wait to get my hands on a physical coffee. Thank you. And I can’t wait to have that coffee. Our mutuals will rue the day. Rue it.

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This week on Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with Sabrina Rudin, the force behind Spring Cafe in Aspen and New York. She is also the author of Healthy with a Side of Happy, which comes out on April 28th, and shares her Five Rules for Cooking Vegetarian Food. Not trends, not rules for the sake of rules, but food that makes you feel good and keeps you coming back for more. We talk about what it actually means to cook and eat well without overcomplicating it. Skip the fake meat. Cook with what’s in season. Look outside your usual rotation. Make it satisfying. And most importantly, let the food do the talking.

What I love about Sabrina is that she doesn’t hedge. She’s not trying to trick you into eating vegetables. She’s not disguising them or apologizing for them. She cooks them like they matter, because they do. There’s confidence in that. You feel it in the way she talks about a squash or a bowl of lentils the same way someone else might talk about a steak. It’s direct, it’s honest, and it works. You leave the conversation wanting to cook, not convert. You want to make something that tastes good, fills you up, and maybe shifts how you think about what a meal can be.

Thank you to Lesley Suter & Noah Galuten for having me on Food Parents last week. We swap recipes for our kids, talk about the last wins we had in the kitchen, and I share how I sneak Red Boat Fish Sauce into everything.

Introduction

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz Today, I’m joined by Sabrina Rudin, who is the owner of Spring Cafe in Aspen and the author of Healthy with a Side of Happy, 100 Plant-Based Recipes to Feed Your Family. She shares her five rules for cooking vegetarian food and preaches the importance of foregoing faux meat when cooking dinner, that by experimenting with different cuisines and flavors, you will open your palate to a world of deliciousness and that just because it doesn’t have meat doesn’t mean it isn’t hearty. It is a great conversation for anyone who’s already foregone any carnivorous eating habits and for those who want to eat less meat and add a lot more vegetables to their cooking. So let’s get into the rules.

Opening Conversation

Sabrina, so nice to meet you. Thank you for making the time to sit down and chat with me. Excited to have you on the show. I’m so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. We are knee deep in the Winter Olympics, which I know is something close to your heart as a former snowboard instructor. Oh, gosh. What do you love the most about being out on the slopes? I love the peace and quiet of it. I love early morning tracks, either fresh powder or a groomed run, just getting out there and seeing all the snow and the trees and being in nature. I also love the adrenaline. There’s nothing like dropping into a run on your snowboard. Both of those two things combined just really does it for me. I love getting out on the slopes. I did as a kid and just got back into it recently. And what I found that hasn’t changed is that the food that I find at the lodges can be super heavy, not the energy I need. You can’t ski after it. You found the same thing. And instead of just complaining about it, you wound up opening up your own place, Spring Cafe Aspen. Why was it so important to you to offer a different culinary option for those hitting the slopes?

The Origin of Spring Cafe

Well, I was living out in Aspen after college teaching snowboarding. I spent a lot of time there growing up. I would wake up really early to get to line up to get our lesson assignments. And then I would finish a day of skiing. All I wanted was a cozy, comforting, big bowl of food that would leave me feeling really good. I wanted a vegetarian option. Mm hmm. It’s an activity driven lifestyle. I wanted something vibrant. I wanted bright colors, cabbage and broccoli and tofu and brown rice, juices and smoothies and all the foods that I know fuel you that don’t leave you feeling bloated and tired and heavy. And I couldn’t find it. So I did complain about it. for a long time. I also drew inspiration from a lot of places in LA. I wanted a place like Cafe Gratitude or Real Food Daily. I wanted an Earth Cafe, something with a counterculture vibe and a fun, vibrant juice bar that people could gather around after a day of skiing. Everyone told me I was crazy, but I have this terrible habit that when people tell me I’m crazy and something won’t succeed, I think I should test it out. So that’s what I did. A few years later, I opened Spring Cafe and that was almost 15 years ago.

The Cookbook Philosophy

It feels like all of your lifetime experiences of cooking healthy and vegetarian food has bubbled up into your first cookbook, Healthy with a Side of Happy, which is coming out April 28th on Union Square and Co. What did you want to say with these plant-based recipes in a vegetarian-focused cookbook? I wanted to say a few things. I wanted to say, one, nobody has to be vegetarian. I eat a little bit of meat. The healthiest way to eat, no matter what fad comes and goes, is plenty of fruits, vegetables, nuts, beans, seeds, grains, loaded with fiber, loaded with nutrients. So I wanted people to know that you don’t have to only eat this way, but you should know how to cook this way. And I wanted to make it simple, accessible. I just wanted it to be full of joy, hence the title, Healthy with a Side of Happy. I wanted to say to people, this is the foundation for a healthy, happy, joyful life. And you don’t have to go crazy. These are the foods that I grew up eating. This is how we prepared them in a way that always felt nourishing and joyful to me. If I can do it, you can do it because I am not a trained chef. I am a home chef learned to cook by watching my mom and then experimenting from other people’s cookbooks. Love it. There’s so much out there. Wellness has become this crazy industry. Health has become this crazy industry. Plant-based food has become an industry. But if you just could have one Bible in your home to help you live a healthier, happier, cleaner life, this is what I would give you. I love that confidence and I love that conviction and I love that curation of, I know there’s a lot out there. I’ve lived that life both outside of nature and opening a business, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for cooking vegetarian food.

Rule #1: Make Vegetables the Star

Your very first rule is one that I agree with wholeheartedly because when I want something that is plant-based, it’s not because I’m missing meat. It’s because I want the best of what I can get out of the ground. What’s your rule number one? Forget the faux meat and make vegetables the star of the show. People who want vegetarian food, you’re not trying to make it meat. You’re not trying to serve the meat. It shouldn’t taste like meat. It should taste like vegetables. When I’m cooking for people and I want to make them this beautiful vegetarian dish or meal or dinner or lunch, I don’t try to make a sausage stuffed anything. No, thank you. I choose a vegetable, a beautiful squash, and I stuff it with wild rice, with veggies. I love to make a lentil or a tempeh bolognese. There’s a recipe for that in my book. It’s fun to take a twist on a classic meaty dish and make it with vegetables. Forget the fake meat. Make vegetables the star of the show because when we talk about eating a plant-based diet, let’s eat plants and show everyone what you can do with them. There is really no better way to convince someone to consider plant-based dishes than just relying on the flavor and the realness of the dish itself. Trying to tell someone, oh, I’ve made the best version of this, or oh, you don’t need that in your dish is a surefire way to turn them off, which ties directly into your rule number two.

Rule #2: Don’t Try to Convert Everyone

My rule number two is don’t try to convert everyone. Just focus on the joy of sharing a meal. The point of everything that I do in my work with the cafe, with my social media, and really my book is food is joy. Nourishment is joy. Coming together to share a meal I think is one of the most special things we can do together as humans. Forget trying to convert or convince anyone that your way is better or that they should be eating this way. And let the food speak for itself. Cooking a meal for your kids, your significant other, your friends, your community, and just coming together around a table is really a great act of love and service. Let the food that you put down really be infused with joy, with love, and let sharing that experience be the proof in the pudding.

Rule #3: Experiment with Cuisines and Flavors

Being able to create those new experiences and opening someone’s eyes to the possibility of this type of cooking does come with exploring different cultures and cuisines and flavors. If all you’ve ever had is broccoli with Braggs again and again over brown rice, which we’ve all enjoyed... A lot of that. I’ve eaten a lot of that. It can get really stale. It can really turn someone off. Your third rule talks about opening your pantry and your ingredients to a much larger world. What’s your rule number three? My rule number three is experiment with different cuisines and flavors. My kids eat the most every meal when we do Greek night, Indian night, Thai night. Mm-hmm. Do I get it all perfectly? No. Do I really try to honor the culture that I’ve chosen to represent in the food? Yes. Do I put Bragg’s in Indian food sometimes? Yes. I’m not going to lie. It’s popular for a reason. There’s this myth. You have to make the adult the spicy version and the kid the flavorless bland version. I’ve actually found that to be incredibly untrue. My children eat garlic, turmeric, ginger, spices from the time they start solids. And to me, that’s what gets them excited about it. The beauty of experimenting with another cuisine is most people really do think American food or meat and potatoes or fish and veggies or, oh, we’re going over. She’s going to make vegetarian food. What could she possibly make? Pasta. And when I put down a meal that’s really rooted in another tradition with flavors that people aren’t used to, that’s where the excitement comes from. And I think you can show people a lot, showcase veggies in a way, stepping a little bit outside of your comfort zone. There’s a vegetarian Indian meal that I had from a Tiffin woman who cooked out of her house from the South Bay 15 years ago that I still say, if I could eat like that all the time, I’d never have another piece of meat. Exactly.

Rule #4: Shop Seasonally and Locally

Part of what made her food so incredible was the freshness, was driven by what was in season, which I know is something that’s said a million times, but it’s hard to ignore it when things taste so good. That approach to shopping and what you put in these dishes is a fundamental rule number four. My rule number four, I have to give credit, is inspired by the wonderful chef and food writer, Melissa Clark. Legend. I read her cook this now. Nearly 20 years ago when I was living in the city, I’m starting to cook on my own. She talks about going to the farmer’s market every day of the year in New York. Mm. trudging there in the dead of winter, in the snow, buying what’s in season and making a meal from it. And that really stuck with me ever since I have visited the Union Square Farmers Market in New York every week. Wednesdays and Saturdays are my days. I go rain, sleet, snow, anything. I really try to find what’s in season. I love talking to the farmers that are growing my food. I find things that you wouldn’t normally or ever find in the traditional aisles of a grocery store. Really encouraging people to shop. locally and seasonally from their local market does so much for our food ecosystem. You get kohlrabi, you get baby bok choy, you get yum choy some, and suddenly it’s not only just broccoli with Braggs. Zilling bok choy, which is a recipe I have in my book, a variety of squash that you have never tried before that’s so tender and sweet and delicious, melts in your mouth while roasted. I just like to encourage people to be excited by something different and something new. Some people get really excited about going shoe shopping. I get really excited about going veggie shopping.

Rule #5: Make It Hearty

Having that passion that started with you wanting to open Spring Cafe in Aspen all these years later has really come together to help you shape the types of recipes that you’re sharing in your book and that you want to put out in the world and ties directly into your rule number five. My rule number five is make it hearty. Stews and soups are such a great way to highlight how satiating plant-based food can be because when I first started talking about an idea for Spring Cafe in Aspen, my coworkers, my friends, everyone was like, oh, No one wants to eat salad in Aspen. Everyone wants an elk chili or a burger. And I said, well, first of all, who said anything about just salad? I don’t want a salad right now. I want a coconut curry with veggies and chickpeas. I want enchiladas. I want a lasagna. I want a sweet potato white bean burger. I want a huge breakfast burrito. I just want to feel really good after I eat it. When I first opened spring in New York, what always... filled my cup the most was when we would get tables of a few guys who were on their lunch break from work and they would order the sweet potato white bean burger or the chickpea tuna pita in the early days when we opened it I would walk around and introduce myself to everyone and thank everyone for coming in and I always loved seeing a big group of guys lick their plates clean and I would start talking them and say, do you feel satisfied or is this your first time? And they’d say, we are obsessed with it. We love it. We come every day from work. We feel so good. Our partners are so excited. We’re eating healthy. We can go to the gym and we feel really great at the end of the day after work. It might be a more typical choice to choose Chipotle or another option, all of which are great options. But if you can really show people just how satisfying, satiating it can be, that’s really how you show people that you are what you eat. healthy with a side of happy. That’s the correlation between eating good and feeling good for me.

Closing

If people want to come to the cafe, if they want to see book events you’re doing, follow along with what you’re cooking and if the content you make, where can they go? They can find me and follow along on my Instagram at Spring by Sabrina. They can come visit one of the cafes in Aspen or New York City. The best way is my website, sabrinarudin.com or my Instagram, Spring by Sabrina. Congratulations. Excited for your first book to come out into the world. Thank you. It’s such a great podcast. Thank you for having me. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for stopping by. Love to be here.

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Garrett Oliver travels the way most people want to, with purpose, curiosity, and a very good palate. In this episode, the Brooklyn Brewery brewmaster and global bon vivant breaks down his Five Rules for Great Traveling. It starts before you even take off. Dress well, take care of yourself, and bring your own sense of hospitality onto the plane. From there, it is about where you land and how you move. Stay close to what matters. Use something as simple as the best baguette in Paris to guide your neighborhood. Spend time in markets, both old and new, to understand how a place actually lives. And when you find somewhere that feels right, go back. Again and again.

What I love about this conversation is how intentional it is. Garrett does not just travel often, he travels well. Every choice has a reason behind it, from what cocktail he packs on a flight to how he chooses a neighborhood to stay in. Talking to someone with that level of experience sharpens your own instincts. It reminds you that great travel is not about checking boxes, it is about paying attention. About building rituals. About knowing what matters to you and using that as your compass. This episode is a reminder that the difference between a good trip and a great one usually comes down to how much thought you put into it before you even leave.

For my latest profile for Fine Dining Lovers, Miles Thompson, the chef and co-owner of Baby Bistro in LA, took me through his three-hundred-and-twenty-six cookbook collection. He talked about the books that inspired him and how they shaped the food he serves today.

Introduction

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. It’s always a pleasure when I get to sit down with my friend and world-traveling bon vivant, Garrett Oliver, who is the brewmaster of the Brooklyn Brewery, author of The Brewmaster’s Table, and editor-in-chief of the Oxford Companion to Beer.

He’s here today to share his five rules for great traveling and talks about how knowing where Paris’ best baguette can be your go-to guide for where to stay, how by taking care of yourself on a flight will be the best kickoff to any trip, and that to truly understand any city, you should understand its markets.

As a first-class traveler and a lover of adventure, Garrett’s rules are the best insider insights for anyone who wants to get the most out of going abroad. So let’s get into the rules.

Catching Up

Garrett, it is so good to see you. We’ve had meals together. We’ve had adventures together. And it’s nice to sit down and chat together once again.

It has been too long, my friend. It has been too long. And the last time we saw each other was under circumstances that were a little heavy. So it’s nice to have a little sunshine and chat today.

Indeed. We think of our boy every day. Every day.

Why Travel Matters

For as long as I’ve known you, you have been gallivanting across the globe. What do you love about getting out into the world?

There’s always a new horizon, a new experience. People say to me, how do you get to have this super cool life? And it really is because I know people like yourself. I was watching recently the Star Wars series Endor, and there’s the character, and there’s a code that he’s supposed to give to somebody he’s meeting for a rendezvous. I have friends everywhere.

The booze, food, music mafia that runs worldwide. You can just basically whisper to somebody, I have friends everywhere. And you do. I saw someone asking for Neil’s list in Mexico City yesterday. And the next slide a minute later was, I got it. Don’t worry about it. I’m good. And it keeps getting updated. I think it’s 70 pages now or something. It’s very dense.

Given all your travels and your years at it, was there a moment when you felt like you had gotten mastery of how you like to see the world?

I still have a lot of places that I want to see, but last time I re-upped my global entry, they asked you to name all the countries that you have been in in the last five years. And it turned out that it was 28 or 29, depending upon whether or not you considered the Vatican to be a country.

At a certain point, you’re like, yeah, I know exactly how this is going. I’m James Bond in this situation and I have a way that I do this.

On the other side of that coin, some people might see pro travelers and be intimidated. What do you say to the people who might be afraid to hit the road because they’re not doing it, quote, the right way?

First of all, you will never be sorry about hitting the road to any place cool, especially if there’s people there that you know. I’ve seen so many people who were intimidated, like, oh my God, I’m going to India. And when they got back, they were like, that was the coolest thing I ever did in my entire life.

I left my house. Nothing new is going to happen here. People are like, oh, how can you live in New York? Well, I live in New York because I love living here, partially because I can leave it. That is a luxury for sure, but it’s a luxury that I get to enjoy. So I feel like I’ve earned it.

You’ve definitely earned it, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for great traveling.

Rule #1: Get Dressed

Now, your first two rules talk about the importance of preparing for your trip, starting with the travel itself. What’s your rule number one?

My rule number one is get dressed. I did a thing for New York Magazine for secret strategists on how I’m dressing for an airplane. I personally am never going to feel good if I look like a slob.

You don’t have to get dressed up. It’s not like the 40s, but you should look good. And looking good is actually part of how you bond with the folks who are actually operating the airplane. And they’re going to be a lot nicer to you.

If you’re going to wear sweatpants, go get really good ones. Make sure that they move easily, that whatever you’re wearing is breathable. Bring a pair of slippers. Don’t have your feet messed up in shoes for an eight hour flight. Thermal socks are good for being on the plane with the slippers.

Get dressed, look good, make yourself comfortable.

Rule #2: Uncattle Yourself

Your next rule deals with setting yourself up with some hospitality on your flight. What’s your rule number two?

If you learn only one thing from this podcast, when you’re heading for an airplane, uncattle yourself. Unless you’re in business class or you’re in first class, you will be treated as cattle. They are not making any money on you. They don’t care about you. You must care for yourself.

Rule number one of uncattling yourself is bring your own napkins. Cloth napkins. There’s a reason why in business class and first class, the first thing they do to let you know that you’re being taken care of is they put that big white cloth napkin in front of you. You can do that for yourself, and it makes all the difference in the world.

Bring your own food. You could have a spectacular sandwich. If I’m coming back from France, I go to the charcuterie shop and I’ve got a pâté, small packets of mayonnaise. Very important. I’m going to be good.

Personally, I carry my own cocktails. 100 milliliter spray bottle. Looks like hair tonic. Keep it in the quart baggie. Never been caught. When they go by, I’m like, could I just have a glass of ice? And they’re like, here you go, sir. And as soon as they’re past me, I’m like, dook, dook, dook, dook, dook. And everybody looks up and I’m like, yeah, that’s a cask strength old fashioned. Nothing like a personal tipple at 30,000 feet.

Rule #3: Reside in Proximity

Once you’ve had a great adventure on a plane, knowing where you’re going and where you’re staying is really important. What’s your rule number three?

Rule number three, reside in proximity. Sometimes residing in proximity means you want to be close to the beach. People are like, oh, where do you stay in Paris?

The way I decide has to do with the things that I have to do, where are the metro lines coming in. But the number one way, I look at the last three years of the best baguette in Paris competition. And wherever I get my Airbnb or whatever is going to be within a five minute walk or less of one of the top three winners.

That is the thing that matters to me. You can walk out your front door, you can have a fresh, great baguette, and now you’re golden.

Rule #4: Understand the Markets

Understanding the neighborhood is really important, especially if you want to travel like a local, which includes shopping.

If I want to understand a new country, most parts of the world, there’s some kind of old food market. I want to know what the old food market looks like. I want to know what the flea markets are like. And I also want to go to the supermarket.

When you go to the old market and then you look at the supermarket, you will understand so much of how people in this country spend their time, how they spend their money and what they value.

A good example is France. Some of the best markets in the world, but the supermarkets, they’ve got a lot of frozen food. You have a better understanding of what’s being projected to you, but then what’s actually going on.

When you go to a flea market, you understand things about the past and present of the country. Who’s out there selling things? Are they all from another country? If you go to Belgium, for example, most of the people selling at the flea market will be from Africa. This will speak to a colonial past.

If you go to a flea market in Norway, what you will see is the fact that Norway is now rich but used to be poor. Before they found oil in the 50s or 60s, they were a poor country. So Norwegian antiques, they’re like Soviet antiques.

When you see that stuff, it gives you a deeper understanding of what’s going on in the country. It doesn’t matter where you go. You see what people value.

I go to Japan and I buy really crazy cool old indigo fabric for almost nothing because these things, which are seriously handmade and beautiful, are not really being valued by modern Japanese people.

A lot of these flea markets are at temples. People are not getting up early to go out there. And I’m that guy. I’m going to Japan, I’m like, what are the flea markets that are going to be happening within the time that I’m going to be here? The biggest one at the Oi race course, they have 700 dealers. It’s incredible.

I have made this mistake more than once, not going with the extra empty suitcase. And I’ve had to buy an extra empty suitcase, which thankfully you can also buy at the flea market.

Rule #5: Go Back

Your fifth and final rule deals with something I struggle with all the time when choosing where to travel. How do you justify going back to the places you love again and again?

There is a reason why, in my case, Japan, France, Spain, Italy. I’ve gone to the same town in Italy for at least a week every summer for 25 years.

The way I justify it is that I can go up a mountain, 20 minutes out of Portofino, walk into a restaurant, and everyone comes out of the kitchen to kiss me. You might as well be home. What else could you possibly want?

It’s a matter of balance. You know where I haven’t been, and I hate to admit this, I have never been to Mexico City. People tell me that I’m out of my mind, like it’s going to be my favorite place in the world. I will go to Mexico City this year. I have Niels’ List, but I have not experienced Niels’ List.

I go to Mexico every year, but I go to the beach. I’m not regretting the beach. The beach was really, really nice. There were palm trees over my head for two weeks. I read four books. I regret nothing.

Closing

Garrett, thank you so much for sharing all of your tips about world travel. I’m going to be using the baguette method moving forward.

If people want to follow along with your adventures or see what you’re working on at Brooklyn Brewery, how can they see what you’re up to?

So I’m at iGarrettOliver. One of these days I will discover who, like a million years ago, got Garrett Oliver because there aren’t that many of us in the world.

Garrett, thank you so much. Looking forward to sharing a drink and a bite with you sometime soon. Let’s make it happen.

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Chris Valdes cooks with a point of view, and it starts with where he comes from. In this episode, the Miami chef and TV host breaks down his Five Rules for Using Food as Identity. He talks about cooking with your story at the center, why success only matters if you share it, and how taking care of your body is non-negotiable if you want to stay in the game. There is a through line to everything he says. The small moments matter. The daily rituals count. The goal is not the highlight reel, it is building a life that feels good to live, one meal at a time.

What I love about Chris is how grounded it all feels. There is ambition there, real drive, but it is anchored in generosity and perspective. He is not chasing the next big thing at the expense of everything else. He is paying attention. He is taking care of himself. He is making space for other people. It is a reminder that you can build something meaningful without burning out or losing the plot. That kind of clarity is rare, and it sticks with you.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Introduction

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I chat with Miami chef and TV host, Chris Valdes, who’s here to share his five rules for using food as identity. He talks about how the best males are never eaten alone, how taking care of your body is an essential ingredient for a healthy career, and that the good life isn’t just red carpets and big moments, it’s elevating it every day. It’s a great conversation for those looking to stay in the game for the long haul. and how having an open mind to what comes your way is a great way to live your best life.

So let’s get into the rules.

Welcome & Opening Question

Chris, so nice to meet you. Thank you for taking the time out of your busy week in Miami to sit down for a chat. Welcome to the show.

Hey, thank you for having me. I’m so excited.

Food has always been at the center of your family and your life. How has it shaped who you are?

Growing up in a family restaurant and always being of service to others, of always being in the industry of sharing food as a way of a language of love, seeing that right since the moment I could remember, it just adapted me to giving that back to the community, giving that back to our clients, giving that back to just anyone I come across, using food as a love language, which is part of who I am.

On Latin Cuisine & Cultural Influence

It’s been so amazing to see Latin culture and cuisine take center stage, especially in America over the last few years. Why do you think that is happening right now?

I think because in Latin American culture, we’re just taught to share. We don’t mind not only sharing our dishes, but mixing it with everyone else’s dishes. So for example, here in Miami, you could go to a restaurant. It’s a fusion between Peruvian food and Asian food, Mexican and Japanese. We’ve just learned that not only can we share our food and our recipes and our culture and our history, but we can mix it with yours and we could tell two stories at once. And it’s like this big party of celebration of everyone’s culture.

The Cookbook & Storytelling Through Food

You shared a lot of these stories in your cookbook, One with the Kitchen, which is celebrating its fifth birthday with so many recipes and so many stories in your life and career. How did you select the ones you wanted to put on the pages?

It was a bit hard because first of all, I’m always hungry since it was food nonstop. Most importantly, I was just tapping into memories, memories that I had from childhood, memories I had from family celebrations, special moments. In our culture, every important moment is attached to food. I just went back there and like, okay, and how could I add a twist to this? Memory, twist, add to the book. Memory, twist, add to the book. And I just put some of my favorite recipes.

Aside from them having a story, I think I also wanted to include unity in there. The dish that I use in the cover of the book is a pavlova. It shows the story of what food is supposed to do. Pavlova is very popular in Peruvian culture. Many don’t know that it originated in Australia. And now everyone here, at least in Miami, enjoys pavlova. And I think I can speak for many parts of the USA or even outside, because when I recently went to Paris and London, every other restaurant had a pavlova on their menu. It’s just done beautifully. That’s what food is supposed to do. It’s supposed to just be shared and let people put their little spin on it.

The Five Rules

Being able to connect with cultures and people and countries through food is one of the reasons why I love this world so much, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for using food as identity. A lot of the times people aren’t going to be able to travel to someone’s country of origin. They’re going to meet them at the restaurant. They’re going to meet them at a home. They’re going to find their food where they are.

But being able to cook dishes that are intrinsically linked to who you are is a big part of your rule number one.

Rule #1: Cook Where You Come From

Rule number one is cook where you come from. Your story and your dish is supposed to say a little bit about where you come from, your culture, your technique, what drives you as a chef or as a cook. Many people, sometimes they get very fancy and they forget to put the most important part to the dish, which is you, which is what makes you unique and being in this world.

Whenever I have the chance to incorporate myself into a recipe, I always make sure that there is extra, especially when I’m serving at home. It doesn’t mean 10 ribeyes or eight lobsters. It just sometimes can mean a bigger salad, more pizza, and it’s a fundamental part of your rule number two.

Rule #2: Success Tastes Better When It’s Shared

Rule number two is success stays better when it’s shared. As a chef, if you have a talent or as a cook, share it with others. Share it with your family. Use this moment to bring people together. Share it with your staff. I go to the local culinary school every now and then, and I’ll teach them a class or two just because we’ve invested so much into our time, into our story, into our history. Might as well share that.

Mm-hmm. There’s a special feeling when you share your knowledge, when you share what drives you with others. Not only are you placing seeds of inspiration towards others, you’re doing the most fundamental thing you could do as a human being. When you share so much of yourself.

Rule #3: Take Care of Your Body Like It’s Part of the Recipe

Catering, being on TV, cooking for the community, it is easy to get burnt out and run down. Then you can’t provide for anyone. Your third rule talks about adding this to the recipe to make sure that you can keep going forward.

The third rule is something I learned the hard way when I was already burnt out. So it says, take care of your body like it’s part of the recipe. It’s the most important ingredient of the recipe. I feel that as a man and as a chef, we’re so trained to go, go, go. You’re not tired. Of course.

Little by little, I learned the importance of boundaries within yourself. What is my day off? What am I going to do on my day off? Am I going to be doing scheduling when I’m sitting in a sofa? No, you’re going to mentally just not do anything. You’re going to give this time to yourself. You’re going to use this time to rest and rest mentally, rest physically, because if not, eventually it adds up and it takes a toll on you.

Once you get into that little dark pothole, it’s very difficult to get out of it. And it’s also a long process. Take care of yourself. And I know it sounds cliche and repetitive. It wasn’t until it recently happened to me, it just taught me, you’re like a car. If you don’t take care of your car, you don’t put the water, the oil, and you don’t put gas, and eventually you’re gonna break. I could tell you that because I’ve burned three cars in my life, so.

Rule #4: Elevate Your Everyday Life

A big part of burnout can be chasing big moments, red carpets, celebrity, huge fancy dinners, looking forward to the moments that are coming up and not enjoying what’s right in front of you. By practicing your fourth rule, you can elevate your life every single day. What’s your rule number four?

My rule number four is elevate your everyday life. Find beauty in those random moments. For example, I like going on long walks and sometimes it’s on a gray day. Put your favorite music, light up a candle. When you go to a restaurant, say yes to the wine pairing. It’s just these little tokens of love and appreciation that you may give to yourself or to whoever’s around you to just remind yourself that it’s not always about the big moments. It’s also about what you do in the small moments that add to your big moments later on.

Rule #5: Trust the Process

Those big moments and those small moments do stack up over a lifetime in a career. It’s so hard to predict where you’re going to go when you start. Your fifth and final rule talks about how to navigate that long and winding road to when you finally found yourself at the end of it. What’s your rule number five?

My rule number five is trust the process. Immediately, my mind takes me back to someone in my team that’s been working with me for eight years. I always would go up to her and I’d be like, do you think that all of these things that I’ve been doing will one day add up? And she’s like, of course, they’re going to add up.

So now that I can look back at to my TV career, nine years, I just celebrated 100,000 subscribers on YouTube. Congratulations. The first platform where I started was on YouTube because I said, if there’s no platform for me, I’m going to create my own. Last week when I was celebrating that, I had a little moment to myself and I’m like, wow, all these little moments do add up. I started with a set of seven videos. I now have 207 videos.

The key... And this was my hard part is patience and timing. Patience. You have to be patient with the process. Patient doesn’t mean I’m going to sit my ass here and just wait for things to come. No, that means I’m trusting the process. I’m putting in the work. I’m getting the classes. I’m getting the lessons. I’m showing up to the big interviews, to the small interviews, to the big moments, to the small moments. I’m putting in my extra cooking techniques and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All of these things add up.

Where to Follow Chris

Chris, I think it’s definitely added up for you. If people want to follow along with what you’re doing, reach out for you to cook for them, just see what you’re up to in your day-to-day community and culinary life. How can they follow? Where can they get involved?

Google, Instagram, everywhere, Chef Chris Valdes, and you’ll see everything I’ve done there. And I invite everyone, especially for just foodies. I speak the universal love language of just wanting to share food for the sake of sharing food because it just makes me happy and hungry. And those are two things that everyone should be, happy and hungry. And going to the gym.

Closing

Chris, thank you so much. And next time in Miami, I’m going to swing by and grab a bite of food from you.

Let’s do it. And I’ll take you to some of my favorite restaurants and we can grab a mojito while we’re at it.

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Kat Kinsman knows a thing or two about restaurants. As the executive features editor at Food & Wine and host of the podcast Tinfoil Swans, which is coming back at the end of March, she has spent years telling the stories behind the people who cook, serve, and gather around the table. In this episode, she shares her Five Rules for Staying Present (and Delighted) at Dinner. They are simple in theory and surprisingly powerful in practice. Believe there is no better table than the one you’re sitting at. Say the nice thing out loud. Take a mental snapshot instead of reaching for your phone. Don’t feel obligated to post. And when the night ends, send the text that says you had a great time. It is a blueprint for getting more joy out of a meal and the people you share it with.

I will admit this is something I struggle with. When you spend your life around restaurants and hospitality, it is easy to slip into work mode or get distracted by the next thing. Kat’s rules are a great reminder of why we sit down to eat in the first place. When I plan a dinner, it is almost always with the people I love the most. Friends, family, the people who make life feel a little bigger. Her approach pushes me to slow down, put the phone away, and actually live inside those moments. Because if you are lucky enough to be at a table with people you care about, there really is no better place to be.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Introduction

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I chat with executive feature editor at Food & Wine, the host of Tinfoil Swans, Kat Kinsman, who shares her five rules for staying present and delighted at dinner.

She talks about how looking at your phone can leave you wanting more from a night out, to be open and honest about what you love, and that if you embrace this approach, the next meal out might be the best one you’ve ever had.

So let’s get into the rules.

Catching Up

Kat, it’s so good to see you. I believe the last time I was with you in the room, I was drinking a mint julep watching horses run the derby.

Thanks for taking time to sit down and chat about the fire rules.

Truly my pleasure. And I think I could use a julep, some burgoo, or a slush right now.

That sounds very delicious.

Being the executive features editor of Food & Wine and host of the Tinfoil Swans, when going out to dinner, do you bring a professional criteria with you at all times?

Oh, hell no. It can become that busman’s holiday kind of thing. So much of what I edit and write about and care about is not about the food. Sure. It’s extremely people-centric. Unless I am on a particular mission, I’m there to be happy in a restaurant. Moreover, I’m happy about who I’m with. I’m not the person they deploy to go out to restaurants. I am lucky enough that I get to go out and just—

The idea of just being at dinner, especially when it’s your profession, doesn’t always happen.

No.

How do you deal with that weight of having to eat out, especially when you’re scouting for best new restaurants when all you want to do is be eating tuna fish and crackers at home?

I don’t go out very often. I’m such an ambivert that it takes a lot to get me out. Recently, I had almost a year after my husband had a heart attack, we really couldn’t go out to restaurants that much. It really reset why and how I go out to restaurants because we have to live within a certain amount of constraints.

When I go, I go with tremendous intent for joy.

I love that.

Because I don’t often have to do it on the job, I can get things for my own pleasure. I just want to be open. I want to have a great time. Leaving the house is really difficult for me, sometimes slightly gore phobic. But once I bust out the door, I’m just thrilled I’m out there and I want to make the most of it that I possibly can.

Memorable Meals

It being wintertime and heading into a cozy restaurant in New York City, there are few greater pleasures in life. And I know that you have lived a life of memorable meals and dinners. Looking back on them, which ones stand out the most?

Fun thing, I just had the greatest restaurant meal of my life.

Oh, well, then this should be easy.

Causa in Washington DC. Have you been?

Not yet, but a boy can dream from across the country.

Carlos Delgado is just making absolute magic there. I got to town early. I decided to take myself out to dinner. Incredible. A lot of my friends are chefs. It’s not like they can go out on a Friday night super easily. So I was like, you know what, I’ve been hearing about this place, I’m gonna go.

Sat down at the counter. From bite one, it’s a Peruvian tasting menu. Let’s go. It’s a tour of Peru and all the different regions of it. And I’m sitting there and I’m having this reconstructed oyster with Leche de Tigre. And I’m listening to Gangster’s Paradise. I’m drinking this absolute banger of a non-out cocktail that was based in the ferments that they’re making with kombucha.

I’m just zenning out because I don’t have to think about anybody else’s pleasure but my own because I’m just by myself. Rare. The whole thing is being driven by somebody’s vision. The hospitality is absolutely incredible. Everybody’s on those headsets so it feels like pluribus I am carol and they are there for my pleasure.

There could be worse things on a Friday night in DC.

When I experience really good food or art or music or anything like that, I get this full body sensation.

I understand that.

Tasting menus, controversial or whatever. I think about the shock and awe that has gone into some of them that have been my favorite restaurant meals ever.

Yeah.

I feel really incredibly lucky. They’re so concentrated. They’re so thoughtful. With Carlos, he’s got such a point of view. He’s a nerd about this stuff. I love it.

Being able to be so intentional and so excited about going out to dinner after all these years is very inspiring, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for staying present and delighted at dinner.

The Five Rules

Rule 1 — There Is No Better Table Than the One You’re At

We live in a world where new restaurants open up all the time in a way that when you’re keeping score or track of it, it could be overwhelming. Your rule number one talks about shifting that mindset and waiting for the right moment to go to a place. What’s your first rule?

I am lucky enough that when I do have that intentionality and go out to dinner with people, I end up absolutely convinced there is no better place, no better table in the entire world than the one I’m at right then.

I love that.

It happens a lot of times at friends’ houses. It happens at restaurants. And I think about everything that crosses my feed all the time. This highly curated, all these restaurants, all these experiences, all these fancy kinds of things we can do.

And I was like, no, this is exactly where I want to be. There’s nowhere better in the universe right now.

And that’s not just me hyping myself up, even though things I love, I love very, very intensely. It’s important that I get to that state and that just keeps me at the table. Why not be happy with what I have right there?

I share that same passion. When I love something, I love it so much and I want to tell people all about it. Or if I enjoy dining at someone’s house, I’m always asking when can we get together again, when can we do it again.

Yes.

And I know you’re supposed to play it cool, but that’s never been part of my personality, which ties directly into your rule number two.

Rule 2 — Wear Your Heart on Your Sleeve

Wear your heart on your sleeve.

Is there any other way to do it?

I dated people who use that as currency. They wouldn’t say I love you. They wouldn’t say the nice thing. No, thanks. No, you don’t do that.

I am given to quite often if I’m feeling that thing about no more FOMO and thinking this is the best place I could be in the world. I say it out loud.

Yeah.

Because why the hell not? Why not say to the people at the table, I’m so glad you’re here with me and that we get to experience this together.

I say it to the wait staff.

I was at EMP some years back. I was having a ball. Our server was like, you’ve gone out of your way to say what a great time you’re having. Are you worried that I think you’re not?

It’s like, hey, I love that we’ve established this dialogue here. I want you to know you’re doing a great job here.

Say you love the thing. Say it’s delicious.

I’d rather be warm than cool any day of the week.

Rule 3 — Take a Mental Snapshot

Once you’ve gotten to the place that you want to be and you’ve realized that there’s no better seat in the room, the second part of that equation of really enjoying yourself is staying present.

There’s no better way to get out of the moment than reaching to your pocket and pulling out that phone.

No. No.

And it’s tough because a lot of times content is currency. If I don’t have the evidence, did I really go?

Your rule number three talks about how to avoid reaching for your phone when a plate hits the table.

Take a mental snapshot.

Because of professional hazard, I do have to whip out my phone sometimes and take a quick picture, but it’s more documentation.

Of course.

This actually goes back to there was a book that I read as I was getting married called The Conscious Bride. This would have been 20 years ago.

It’s about stopping for a second and taking a snapshot with all of your senses about everything that’s going on around you.

You don’t even have to let anybody know you’re doing this.

Take that same thing you do with your phone and capture all of that and deliberately tell yourself, I’m going to remember this. How I feel. What are the sensations I’m having right now? What do things taste like? Who am I with?

Consciously do that and lock it in. Put that on your reel in your head.

You have to do it with intent so you can just come back to those because I definitely have those moments then when I’m really depleted, depressed, lonely, whatever it happens to be. And I go back into that, getting to experience it all over again.

It’s just a really fun way to be.

Rule 4 — Don’t Feel Obligated to Post

That idea of having these personal moments for yourself is really important because it does keep you wanting to go back out into the world to have dinners and try new things.

That being said, sometimes you do take those photos, but that doesn’t mean you have to share them right away, which ties directly into your rule number four.

Don’t post.

I should maybe amend that. Don’t feel obligated to post right then.

Yes.

You’re still you. You still had the experience. You still did the thing. It’s not pics or it didn’t happen.

Who are you trying to prove anything to?

If you want to share it because you’re hyped on it and you want other people to have that joy as much, that’s beautiful. If you want to give a bump to the restaurant after you have left, of course.

For so long, there’s been that feeling of obligation.

The really great meals that I have and the best times where I’m connecting with people over this are times when I’m not pulling my phone out at all.

I forget to.

And it gets to the end of the meal and maybe I’m with somebody. Before we recorded, we were talking about Yassi Salik. Realize we had gotten to the end of the meal, had not taken a picture together.

And that was because I was just so caught up in the joy of her presence, of the food, of the experience that we were having, where I just plain old forgot.

And it was so freeing.

The second I pull out my phone, it’s this Pandora’s box. I get too caught up in it. I doom scroll.

But, you know, some things can just be for you.

And that’s totally fine.

Rule 5 — Text When You Get Home

This idea of doing things for yourself and not having to prove you’re out in the world really is a lost art.

Yeah.

You mentioned the idea of really understanding that the people you’re with, the company you’re keeping at the table is exactly who you want to be with is a major part of your fifth and final rule.

You should text on the way home and say you had a great time.

Maybe it’s because I’m older. Maybe it’s because I haven’t had to date for a long time. I don’t care. Double text. I don’t care.

Wear your heart on your sleeve because you never know when you’re going to get the chance to say that thing again.

Be a sloppy, messy heart of a person.

Let people know you had a great time with them and that you want to do it again.

If I don’t text in, I’ll feel silly for having waited too long. And then it’ll be like a month or a year that I don’t respond because I’m embarrassed that I’ve waited so long.

But just send the text.

I’ve texted on the group thread while waiting in ballet.

Oh, hell yeah.

I’m sorry if my crime is that I told you I loved you too often.

Oh, screw me.

And that we had a great time at dinner again. And let’s find another date.

Sorry. My bad.

Where to Find Kat

Kat, appreciate you wearing your heart on your sleeve and sharing it with everyone.

If they want to read what you’re writing, if they want to listen to the podcast, or just see when you do go out to eat and you do post, which I’m sure has to hit a very high threshold, how can they follow you and see what you’re up to?

On Instagram, it’s Kat Kinsman. Same on threads. On foodandwine.com. I’m pretty easy to find on there.

The podcast, which is coming back at the end of March, is Tinfoil Swans, available anywhere you get your podcasts.

Perfect timing. Look at us.

Kat, so great to see you. And hopefully we can have a meal on or off the grid sometime soon.

I’m going to text you in five minutes and tell you what a great time I had right here.

Thank you so much.

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On this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, Darin Bresnitz sits down with Al Doyle, one of the musicians behind the sounds of Hot Chip & LCD Soundsystem, and the co-founder / co-designer of Relax and Enjoy Studio in Shoreditch, London. Al shares his Five Rules for Making Music You Like. The conversation moves from childhood piano experiments to the very different recording philosophies behind his two bands, and the thinking that goes into producing music that lasts. Along the way, he talks about the discipline of listening, the power of simplicity, and the confidence it takes to trust your own instincts in the studio.

What makes Al’s rules interesting is that they apply to so much more than making music. They are about creating anything. Writing, painting, cooking, filmmaking, building a business, hosting a dinner. The mechanics are different, but the mindset is the same. Start with something you actually like. Keep the structure simple enough so the idea can breathe. Spend more time paying attention than constantly tinkering. Learn enough about your craft that you can rely on yourself when things get complicated. And when the crowd pushes you toward something safe or expected, sometimes the best move is to lean the other direction and see what happens. Creativity is rarely about doing more. Most of the time it is about knowing when to stop and trust the thing you already made.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Transcript

Introduction

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

It is always a pleasure when I get to sit down with today’s guest, Al Doyle, who is a member of both Hot Chip and LCD Sound System and a designer and owner of Relax and Enjoy Studio in Shoreditch, London.

He’s here today to share his five rules for making music you like. He talks about the importance of listening and not changing too much, the fundamentals of being both ambitious and self-sufficient, and that sometimes doing nothing is the best way to make something happen.

He shares some amazing insider stories about making music, the different approach to recording from his two bands, and we share a few laughs about what really goes into making music that you like.

So let’s get into the rules.

Getting Started

Al, it is always a pleasure when we have the chance to make time and chat with each other. Thanks for coming to me live from the studio.

You’re very, very welcome. Yeah, I’m sitting in front of my upright piano. Really bringing class to the show. It’s all I can do to not start playing some jazzy chords in front of you, so you have to appreciate my restraint.

I also appreciate that you’ve been making music almost your entire life. Do you remember the moment when you first made something that you actually liked?

Yeah, I was playing piano from when I was four or five years old, and I definitely remember hammering out some stuff on the piano that I enjoyed going back to, really raucous, hammering, childlike piano music.

I love it. In terms of actual songs that I can remember... I fall out of love with things that I’ve made very, very quickly, I think. When you’re actually making something, the moment of creation is so emphatically all-encompassing and scintillating, and then leave it 20 minutes like, oh my god, now I’ve got to do some actual work to put this together. It just sucks all the joy out of it again. It’s something that I’m battling with every day.

You’ve been lucky enough to also record and create music and go through that process all over the world. Is there something you’re looking for in a space or an environment to be creative? Or is it different vibe for different project?

Making my own studio was an answer to that very question. There was lots of places that I’ve been to that were very close to what my ideal recording space would be.

Obviously, DFA was a huge thing for me when I first came to New York City. Philippe Zadar’s studio in Paris, which is called Motorbass, was a very, very inspiring space. There’s another amazing studio that belongs to the keyboard player in Jamiroquai called Angelic, which is a country retreat studio on a farm. Those kind of places have been on my mind.

Being able to see all these different studios and knowing what worked and didn’t work, I have to imagine fed into what went into building Relax and Enjoy, which is the studio that you built with James. Why was it so important for you to create a space for other musicians to make music?

There is an indulgent thing that we do in Hot Chip and in LCD, which is basically write music in a studio. A lot of bands, they will have to do some kind of writing elsewhere in their bedrooms or like the way that Hot Chip used to do.

The space can be very inspiring for making music if you have the time to allow the instruments to show you where to go. We’ll just go to a synthesizer that we’ve just bought or we’re in another studio that has something that we’ve never seen before and just by the act of trying out that instrument learning how it works you will inevitably write a song through that process because it’s just this voyage of discovery with the instrument brings up stuff that you end up recording and can be the kind of seed of an idea.

When people come in to this place that’s one of the things that we want for them especially younger kids that maybe only have ever seen some of this stuff as plugins and software versions or whatever they’re like oh my god you’ve got a real csa team it’s like oh yeah here it is i

I love that.

So immediately they get their hands on it and start using it in a way that we would never have imagined. And that’s actually inspiring to us. And then the whole thing feeds into itself. Everything’s turned on. Everything’s able to be recorded at any time. It’s supposed to be a little playground.

Creating that playground, having all the toys and tools and the actual approach of making music that you enjoy and have a good track record of making is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for making music you like.

Rule One: Make What You Like

The very first rule...

It’s so simple, but people, myself included, always seem to ignore it when they’re getting into the creative process. What’s your rule number one?

This rule was something that I actually came up with talking to Nick Millhiser from LCD because he’s also a producer and we were just talking about working with other bands. I can tell that they’re trying to get somewhere to something and there’s a level of frustration and

The rule is anyway, make what you like. Try to remember what is it that you’re making that is in any way similar to something that you actually like.

People come in here, they always want to add stuff. And I was like, OK, tell me anything that you like that sounds like this.

Yeah.

And I will happily pursue this way of working because people come in with their influences like I want it to sound like Prince or I want it to sound like a can or whatever. What you’re making sounds nothing like that.

Take that little step back.

I was working with somebody the other day, the drums started to sound like breakbeat or something like some kind of trip hop thing. I was like, guys, I know that you don’t like this music. Why are we doing that? Why are we here?

It’s a question that really stops people and makes them reconsider in a slightly less confrontational way than maybe I’ve just described.

Rule Two: Stick to a Vision

Part of your guide as a producer and as someone who’s been through the creative process before is showing people how to keep their perspective and not get distracted by trends or things that they might want in the moment, but won’t last in a long time, which makes up a big part of rule number two.

Stick to a vision of popular art as a generosity of effects on a simple frame.

So that’s a quotation from Clive James. He was actually talking about Louis Armstrong, but that quotation is about Big Spiderbeck, who was very beloved of Louis Armstrong and him talking about his style of playing quite austere style as opposed to slightly more florid playing from louis armstrong.

It just really got me thinking about that in terms of music but also in terms of art in general specifically he describes it as being popular art so i’m not really necessarily talking about the deepest kind of art sure this idea that you have

And in elaborate frame, like the pop song, this contained little space in which to put your idea across.

Yes.

And then within that, you get to do all of your special effects.

That has really stood with me as a framework for what all of this stuff is. You’re not trying to get too complicated. You’re not trying to change things. this mechanism around your work you’re just trying to give something to someone again that word generosity within there I thought was really important because it’s this idea of no this is something to be enjoyed something where I’m trying to give something to the people that are listening to me I had that as a phrase that was always in the back of my head when I was making things

Like verse chorus verse as i’ve heard it sung before.

Yeah yeah yeah exactly.

Rule Three: Listen, Don’t Change

A lot of times when i listen to the art of making music you’ll hear with some of the most famous songs is that it wrote itself in 10 minutes it just came to me in a dream and it was done.

Yeah.

Being able to pull something from the ether and then sit back and just let it be yeah is a fundamental of your rule number three.

Rule three, listen, don’t change.

This is something that I learned for sure from James Murphy. Also, I believe that he himself learned from Marcus Lampkin, whose artist’s name is S**t Robot.

Basically, hardship. Everybody goes into a room. Everyone’s playing all the time. Just this absolute deluge of great ideas.

I go into the studio with James and we will sit around for the whole day and work on the sound of a woodblock.

Of course. I believe it.

Just these two different ways of working. But I really recently have been feeling as though the correct way to work is to work on that ratio, work on the ratio of listening to versus adding. And you should be doing 10 times more listening than you are making changes or adding stuff.

And when I was with Marcus Lampkin, he actually does this more than James. He’ll just sit there, he’ll listen and listen and listen and listen. And then he’ll be like, we need to do this thing to this song. And it’s like, oh my God, dude, you nailed it. Cracked it.

Yeah.

And sometimes something is just fine as it is. And you’ve got to have that strength to just leave it as it is.

The other very instructive story that I had with regard to this was Pete Shelley working with Martin Russian. He just left the Buzzcocks on his first solo thing that he did. And he had this song, Homosapien. You know this song?

Mm-hmm.

He basically had what he called the demo of that song and he brought it to Martin Russian. And Martin Russian took it to the studio and he played it. And he had Pete Shelley with him there and he’s like, I just need to listen to it again.

And he played it again. And then he played it 20 times in a row. And then he just said, yeah, that’s fine. You should just release it just like that.

I love that. That is just such a cool story because it’s this godlike producer and he’s like, no, I don’t want to touch this. This is great. And it was a massive hit, you know.

There’s so many times that little voice in his head is like, you’ve got to do something, but actually you don’t always.

Rule Four: Be Self-Sufficient

You can go to another level by being able to work on your own music, produce your own projects, and be able to have the confidence within yourself to know that when you go out on the road or play a show or build your own studio, you can really blow other people out of the water, which is a big part of your rule number four.

Be ambitious enough to be self-sufficient and be self-sufficient enough to make other people scared.

With LCD, we would try and turn up to places with everything. There was nothing that we relied upon other people for. Even when we didn’t have the level of crew that we had, there was enough knowledge within that group of people that we could do anything that needed to be done and fix any problem in audio, deal with keyboard. People deal with the promoters, do all that kind of stuff.

You’ve got to know that there’s going to be a time after that, and that comes down to your ambition, to know that it won’t last forever. But in the meantime, you’ve got to actually do it.

Yeah. No one’s going to do it for you.

And if you don’t do it, then you will not be afforded any respect.

If you actually can go above that and be so self-sufficient that everyone’s like, oh, whoa, you guys actually know more than us.

So...

And then that’s when people get, I mean, scared is kind of the wrong word, but it’s having that level of respect that borders on reverence.

I think that’s a lot to do with James’s own personal aura. And also just because he genuinely is the most savant level engineer that I’ve ever encountered.

Rule Five: Contrarianism Can Be Your Savior

Being self-sufficient. Having that ambition, sticking to a vision of making what you really want to make, really bubbles up to creating work that you actually believe in.

And your fifth and final rule talks about the importance of sticking to your guns, especially when you’re making something that the mainstream might not like.

What’s your rule number five?

If in doubt, turn on the herter. Contrarianism can be your savior.

Sometimes things just go wrong. Sometimes people are just not on your side and you’re playing to the wrong people.

In that situation, there will be a very strong instinct that you have to do whatever it is you think those people might like, but don’t do that.

The thing to do in that situation is find the thing that you enjoy doing that they won’t. Otherwise, you’re just on a hiding to nothing.

Don’t try and second guess your audience, I think is the deeper part of what that is.

If there’s something that you enjoy, even if that thing is busting out incredibly piercing knife-like white noise at people get after it then go for that you’re guaranteed to make at least yourself happy whatever else you do you’re not guaranteed to make them happy you know.

Alexis is amazing at that he’ll just happily just play the most intimate music against the people that are just so shouting over him and he just continued to do that has this just level of belief that I absolutely love and it’s not something that I have personally but it’s something that I in a weird way admire and want to have for myself a little bit more so that’s why I wanted to make it part of the rules.

Closing

Al, I appreciate your rules and all the music that you have shared with the world. I know that you’re hitting the road this year.

We are on the road with LCD. We’re going to be touring America. Have a look and see if we’re playing anywhere near you.

Looking forward to having you back in LA. It was great to see you last time and can’t wait to hear some of this music that you like so much once again.

No problem. It’s my pleasure talking to you, Darin. Thanks for talking to me.

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In this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with chef and restaurateur Fermín Núñez to, who shares his Five Rules for a Proper 48 Hour Trip. He talks about traveling with purpose, from taking the earliest flight to packing light to fully disconnecting once you land. We get into why having a clear reason for going, whether it’s a specific restaurant, a soccer game, or a neighborhood you want to understand, changes the entire experience. This is a conversation about using limited time well, finding inspiration through food and place, and returning home sharper than when you left.

What resonates most with me is the idea of traveling with intention and having an anchor. I’ve learned that if I don’t build a trip around one meaningful plan, a reservation, a game, or a person I want to see, the time slips away. But if I overfill the schedule, I miss the magic. The balance is having one strong reason to go and leaving the rest open. That structure creates freedom. It allows you to be present, to wander, to notice something unexpected. That’s when a quick trip stops feeling like an escape and starts feeling like a reset.

Chef Fermín Núñez of Austin’s Suerte and Este teams up with Jorge Gaviria, the founder of Masienda and bestselling author of MASA, to bring their combined time in professional kitchens and on the streets of Mexico to the page in Vitamina T. They understand that these dishes are not static. They evolve. They travel. They adapt. And here, they show you how to cook them with clarity and confidence at home.

Transcript

Introduction

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

It is always a pleasure to see and sit down with today’s guest, chef and restaurateur Fermín Núñez, whose restaurant and bar in Austin are some of my favorite places to hit when I’m in town. He shares his five rules for a proper 48-hour trip.

We share the same love of getting up early and getting on the road, the key balance to having an anchor for your trip but not filling up all of your time, and how disconnecting on the road allows you to come back home recharged.

It’s a really great conversation for anyone looking for insights about how to travel with intention and how if you have a busy schedule to make getting away matter the most. So let’s get into the rules.

Sitting Down in Austin

Fermín, always so good to see you. Always a pleasure when we get some time to chat. Thank you for sitting down for the show.

Thanks for having me right back at you. Always a pleasure to get to chat a little bit with each other.

Whenever I’ve come to Austin, I’ve had such a great time traveling around, hanging out, eating with you, getting to see the city. And there really is this ideal of what it’s like to travel like a chef or be inside the restaurant world because you have all these access to the hidden gems. How much have you found that to be true in your travels?

It’s super true because that’s the number one reason why I travel. I travel to places that I want to eat. I’m also very lucky to be in a place where I get to do that. When I get a little bit of brain farts of ideas of what to do next, that is one of my favorite ways to do is get out of my own head, see what other people in other states are doing, and then come back and get right after it.

There is that idea of traveling for inspiration. You’ve gone out and you’ve had so many great meals. When do you realize when something’s gone from a really great bite to something that’s inspired you to create something in your own kitchen?

Man, I have a few of those. That’s what I really like to mimic at the restaurant. Recreate what I felt, not what I tasted. A lot of the food that you see in the restaurants, one of those dishes most well-known, este is Camarones El Ricas, which are named after a seafood restaurant in Monterrey. which is also a landlocked place, but they also enjoy Maniskas just like we do here in Austin. I enjoyed it so much that I wanted to make my own version of it and not hide behind, oh, this is where I got it from. No, tell people, if you like this one, you’re going to like the ones in Monterey way better. Makes you want to go out there and be like, Like maybe I got to go to Monterey and check this place out, which is also exciting.

Making Time to Travel

Taking that time, giving yourself permission to go on these trips, you alone have three different businesses that you cook at and oversee. How do you give yourself permission to take time off to go travel? How would you apply that advice to someone who’s feeling they can’t find that space in their life to do the same?

The best way to look at those things is realize that you don’t need a lot to do much. I’m very lucky to have a team of people that allow me to take a step back from the restaurants and come back as long as I give them back that energy that they gave me by going away.

I love that. I’ve been doing this for a while. I used to also have this mentality. You’re going to have two days off. Most of the time they’re going to be back to back. How do you make the most out of that? I always love traveling. I don’t want to go to Philly and just do what all the touristy things do. I want to go to Philly and feel what is a normal Tuesday they’re like and pretend it’s just my day off in a different city.

That’s such a great approach and such a great way to look at traveling in a way that isn’t just hitting the well-known spots, but really going with intention, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for a proper 48-hour trip.

Rule #1: Take the Early Flight

As I have talked with people, I have learned that I travel differently than others. What I love about your first rule is that you and I share the same approach to getting up early and getting after it. What’s your rule number one?

Take the early flight. Yes. If you only have so many hours, you have to make the most of it. And the thing that’s going to be a little bit pity about that is you waking up a little bit early. I think we have bigger problems in life than that. And you should be very lucky to think that that is the only thing that you’re stressed about.

In Mexico, we have a saying, el sol sale para todos. The sun rises for everybody. It’s what you do with that day that makes you different than the rest. If you don’t know how to take a nap on a plane, I’m not saying that’s a personal problem, but get up, get to the airport, skip that coffee, get right in your seat, and go see the world.

A lot of times you can look at people’s posts on social media and it seems very effortless. We’re on the road. And I believe that it can be. Sometimes to get that easygoing, free-flowing mentality, when you hit the road, you need to go out with intention.

Rule #2: Have a Purpose

Rule number two, have a purpose. Everything you see in social media is not real. Agreed. They only show you the parts that are exciting for people to watch.

Having a purpose when you’re only going to be there for such a small amount of time, it’s key making it feel like you’re there for a reason rather than feeling a little naughty going for the spur of the moment, which is also fun.

I’m very driven by food, so I always have a purpose of, I want to go eat at this restaurant, or I want to check out this place out. But I’ve also started doing a little bit of those trips in regards to, I’m going to go to Vegas for 48 hours, watch a soccer game, and then make the other things work around that. It’s always important to have a purpose of why you’re going there, achieving it, and then the rest will just fall into place.

Having that other side of the coin with one side being the anchor and the other side being open is really important to let the unexpected happen and to find something that you may have not known was the purpose of your trip, but ultimately becomes the thing you remember the most.

Rule #3: Plan, But Don’t Over Plan Too Much

Plan, but don’t over plan too much. Leaving room for a little bit of flexibility is key. Remembering that you’re there for a certain amount of time and not for a week, it’s humbly impossible to do everything you would do in a week into two days.

have breakfast and that’s it don’t push it you don’t need to have three different breakfasts if anything that’s a good excuse for you to want to be able to come back to the place that you are just there for 48 hours

I think having those limitations knowing that you can’t hit everything is actually freeing in a lot of way. The same goes with being prepared for what you’re going to bring there. There are many times when I’ve gone for a short trip and I am embarrassed by having a full suitcase and a backpack. Paring down can actually free you up.

Rule #4: Pack the Day Before, Pack Light

Pack the day before, but it’s also important to pack light. I think the only thing you can actually overpack is underwear. How many times do we overpack underwear and feel like we’re going to s**t ourselves three times in the script? And guess what? It actually never happens, but better safe than sorry.

Having three different kinds of shoes for the 48 hours because you think you’re going to go to the gym and work out. After you do this a few times, you realize that you’re not going to do

It’s always better to have room in your luggage and fill it with things that are exciting that will remind you of the trip than to bring things on a luggage just to carry them around and bring back and be like, oh, I guess I didn’t even need that.

Having that room also allows you to bring back specialty ingredients, Mentos, other things that will be a constant tchotchke on your shelf and a touchstone for the time that you went away.

Rule #5: Disconnect

Your fifth and final rule talks about the importance of when you go away, really be away. Home will be home when you get there. Being present when you’re away is the real key to a 48-hour trip. What’s your rule number five?

Number five is disconnect. I do this for inspiration, but I also do this to be able to come back a better chef than I left for those two days and be the person my team needs me. That is super important when traveling. You travel for yourself.

I’ve always wanted to eat at Sahave. You have all these places that you say you always want to go. If you plan in advance, little bit sneaky in the internet, you can find really cheap ways to go to places and make things happen.

I went to Philly and it was also so amazing to be able to be present with my partner at the time to a city that I’d never been to. She had been there once. We were just walking around making stuff happen in between dinner. It was the most present I’ve been in a while and I really enjoyed it.

I love that. You didn’t travel to make content. All the people that go to shows and film them, how often are you actually seeing that video? The most important part about being in a trip like this, being present is more valuable than being like on social media. Remembering why you chose to do this trip, it’s always a nice reminder of how to be at the time and place that you’re in. It’s amazing and it’s definitely a gift that you can bring back to your life at home and to your kitchen.

Where to Follow Along

For me, if people want to come visit you at any of your three spots in Austin or see where you’re going out on the road when you take these 48 hour trips, how can they follow along with your adventures?

For the restaurants, they can follow along at Suerte ATX, Este ATX, and Bartotti. For my personal stuff, you can get a little behind the scenes of what we do in the kitchen, what I do outside of the kitchen, and every time I travel at Chief Nunez.

If I’m posting that I’m traveling in a place, it most likely already happened because according to my fifth rule, I was disconnecting being present at the place that I was at that time. You don’t want to be stuck in your DMs with people trying to get you to go to all these places.

Can’t wait to get back to Austin. Can’t wait to have another meal with you real soon. Thank you. Hope that sooner rather than later.

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Today’s guest is Maxine Scharf, the culinary creator and recipe developer behind Maxi’s Kitchen. She shares her Five Rules for Turning Your Passion Into Your Career, and what goes into making the leap, staying consistent, and creating work people genuinely want to bring into their homes. We talk about the moment her career pivoted, what it actually takes to build momentum online, and how a passion project turns into a real business. We also get into her first cookbook, Maxie’s Kitchen: Easy Go-To Recipes to Make Again and Again, out March 3rd, 2026.

There’s a point in every creative life where the idea stops feeling hypothetical and starts feeling like a dare. Betting on yourself sounds romantic until you’re the one doing the betting. It’s uncomfortable, uncertain, sometimes terrifying. But when the passion is real, the bigger risk is often standing still. Belief is the spark, dedication is the structure, consistency is the engine, hard work is the daily proof. That combination doesn’t guarantee success, but it gives you something better, a real shot.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Transcript

Five Rules for the Good Life

Introduction

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I sit down with culinary creator, recipe developer, and the creative force behind Maxie’s Kitchen, Maxine Scharf. She’s here to share her five rules for turning your passion into your career. She talks about the importance of just getting started, how consistency is key, and that the bigger your dream, the better you can get. It’s a great conversation for anyone who’s looking to kickstart their own creative project or grow their followers. She also shares some of the stories and inspiration behind her first cookbook, Maxie’s Kitchen, easy go-to recipes to make again and again, which comes out March 3rd, 2026. So let’s get into the rules.

Opening Conversation

Meeting Maxine

Maxine, it is so nice to meet you. Congratulations on your first book coming out early March, 2026.

Thank you so much, Darin. Excited to be here. Thanks so much for having me on.

Oh my God. My absolute pleasure.

Career Turning Point

The Layoff & The Leap

Three years ago, back in 2022, you were laid off, something that a lot of people are dealing with now, and started diving into culinary creation full-time. What gave you that confidence to get in the kitchen and then to also share what you were doing?

So I had actually been sharing content online for a couple of years when I had gotten laid off. I had built a modest following. I had always said that my goal eventually, like my dream was to be able to focus on maxi’s kitchen full-time but I was always too afraid to take the plunge and like quit my corporate job to do it. Of course when I got laid off obviously I was really upset that day it was like a gut punch crying completely shocked been there.

But then the afternoon of that day, I started to get this little internal pull or feeling of, hey, maybe this is my chance to chase my dream and focus on the cooking stuff full time. I told my husband, almost feeling embarrassed when I told him that that was what I was thinking. And he was really supportive.

The next day I woke up and I filmed three recipes and basically just started running as fast as I can chasing that dream. I’ve been doing it ever since.

From Passion to Profession

Realizing It Became a Career

From that day after, we’ll call that day one if you’d like.

Yeah.

Was there a moment when you realized that this passion of yours had become your profession?

It started when I was able to focus all of my time on cooking and creating content and sharing videos. My account started to gain momentum pretty quickly and I started seeing videos start to go viral and I felt like I had a lot of momentum that kept me going.

About two months into focusing on Maxi’s Kitchen full time, I started having managers reach out. If you’re not familiar with managers in the content creator space, they basically help you pitch you to brands, help with the monetization and some of the high level strategy of your business.

Of course.

It was a couple months in when I met a manager who I absolutely loved and had just this immediate feeling of, oh, I need to work with this person. And I feel like it was signing with her that made me realize, okay, wow, I think I’m actually doing this full time because now she’s going to help me build a business around the cooking stuff.

That’s so amazing to have that turning point work out for you. I don’t want to say relatively quickly because it’s years in the making overnight, as I’ve always found.

That’s such a good way to put it.

The Cookbook

Shaping the First Book

What’s so exciting is that you’ve been able to build this organically, you focus it on full time, and now you have your first cookbook coming out in March of 2026, Maxi’s Kitchen, easy go-to recipes to make again and again. With so much content, so many recipes to pull from, how did you whittle it down? What is the story you want to tell with your first book?

When thinking about the concept for my first cookbook, right, there’s so many different ways you could go with it or different areas you could focus.

Absolutely.

When thinking about the people who actually cook my recipes and the people who I’m serving, a lot of my audience, they’re busy, they really just need to get dinner on the table for their family. They’re not professional chefs.

The biggest problem is people don’t actually have their go to recipes.

Yes.

When you have your go-to recipes, and that’s the three to five recipes that you have in your arsenal that your family loves, that you feel really confident making, when you have those down, then cooking starts to become really fun and relaxing and enjoyable because you know what’s in your toolbox.

Really, the goal of this book is to help people find the recipes that are gonna be a part of their rotation that they can master and feel really comfortable with, just things to make again and again.

The Five Rules

Rule Number One — Just Start

It’s so incredible that you’ve been able to take it from a hobby into how you run your life, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for turning your passion into your career. And the first rule in many ways was kickstarted for you with you being laid off from your job, but is really something that people should keep in mind when they want to get rolling in their own project or passion. What’s your first rule?

My first rule is just start. It doesn’t need to be perfect. While the being laid off was such a catalyst towards working on Maxi’s Kitchen full time.

Yeah.

I actually had shared my first video three or four years before that.

Incredible.

It took me a year to actually muster up the courage to share that first video.

Sure. Sure.

I used to share on just my personal instagram story clips of my mom and i cooking together and i noticed that a lot of my friends just loved that content and they were always responding to my story and i started having a feeling oh people are interested in this but then for a year i sat on the idea of putting content out there and starting a blog. At first i was thinking oh i want it to be me and my mom i want it to be more youtube style where we’re talking to camera.

But the problem was I lived in New York at the time and she was still in California. So that wasn’t happening.

There was one low key weekend, wasn’t doing too much. I was just cooking for me and my husband. I was making meatballs in an Italian sauce. And I was like, you know, why don’t I just see if I could film something on my phone and just see if I could put a video together.

If you look back at the beginning of the road for me, the video that I put out was, I don’t want to say horrible compared to the way they look now, but it was just very raw.

Totally fine though.

Yeah, it wasn’t perfect at all. I didn’t have any tripods. I was just holding the phone with my hand. But you have to start somewhere in order to get better.

Rule Number Two — Consistency is Key

Once you get started, your second rule, it’s the piece of advice that I give to everyone who asks about starting a podcast or doing something creatively and putting it out into the world. To me, it’s my number one rule, but I can understand that getting started has to happen for this one to click into place. What is your rule number two?

My rule number two is consistency is key.

Yes. Yes.

This applies to so many things in life in general to be successful, especially when looking at building a career in social media. As a content creator, consistency is important.

I once saw Adam Mosseri, who is the head of Instagram. He said, the right number of posts is whatever you can stay consistent with.

Agree.

So if that’s one post a month, do one post a month. If that’s two per week, do two per week. He was basically saying it’s better to pick something that you can be consistent with versus posting five times in one week and then going silent for the rest of the month.

That always really stuck with me. And I do think finding a manageable cadence that you can stick to is really important.

Finding that cadence also gives a certain amount of reliability with the community that you’re engaging with because they know when to expect it, they know what to expect, it becomes part of their routine.

For sure.

Rule Number Three — Engage With Your Community

This allows you to enact your rule number three. The rule number three is engage with your community and connect with others in your field.

I would comment and like and just really engage with cooking creators or food accounts. I would actually even reach out to aggregator accounts that would post other people’s recipe videos.

Every time you like or comment on another person’s post, you’re making somewhat of a connection with them. And then you’re also leaving footprints back to your own account, which is really helpful.

In terms of connecting with others in your field, that was critical for me when I got laid off. I made a point to set up calls with every single person I knew who was doing something similar to what I was hoping to do.

Just getting all of those different perspectives was really helpful in helping me get my footing when I was first starting out doing it full time.

Rule Number Four — Follow the Inspiration

Once you get the ball rolling, you get content going. Sometimes you start going down a path that wasn’t the original intent. Sometimes that’s good and you discover new things. But as you build a community, they are going to expect a certain type of content from you. Staying focused is a big part of your rule number four.

My rule number four is to follow the inspiration. Sometimes your brain can become very wired to producing content or recipes that you know resonate and that you know perform well with your audience. Of course that is important and that still is something that i think about core to my business.

Something that I’ve learned to tap into more is actually just following my intuition, following the inspiration with the recipes that I create.

There was a book that my friend got me for my birthday called The Creative Act by Rick Rubin.

I don’t know if you’re familiar with it.

Of course.

That actually really helped shift my mindset. He talks a lot about how all creative ideas come from a source, kind of a spiritual approach. He says, when you get a pull by a creative idea, that means that it’s that idea’s time to come into the universe.

I love that so much.

So I really try to trust that as much as possible.

It was so fun working on the cookbook because every single recipe in the book came from a day of inspired thought. And there was never a point where I felt like I had to force creativity.

I was able to have fun with it and really just follow the inspiration.

Rule Number Five — Dream Big & Have a Long-Term Vision

Having that inspiration and the confidence to share your ideas with the world when they’re ready is so important. Your fifth and final rule takes all of your daily work, that long road of determination, and puts it together for a successful career. What’s your rule number five?

My fifth rule is dream big and have a long-term vision.

I’m a big believer in manifestation, the fact that you need to see and believe something in your own mind before it becomes a reality on the outside or in the real world.

Actually, a couple months after I got laid off and started working on Maxi’s Kitchen full time, I created a vision board.

Yes.

On that vision board, it had hitting a million followers on Instagram. It had writing a cookbook. It had hitting 100K on YouTube.

All of those have actually come true already. And then there’s a few other things on there that I hope will come true.

That was really helpful. I put it up in my closet. Every time when I was getting dressed, I would see it.

You’ve really got to believe it in order to achieve it.

Where to Find Maxie’s Kitchen

Maxine, it seems like you have achieved it. If anybody wants to order the book, check along with content created directly from the book, where can they go? How can they get involved?

My Instagram is at maxiskitchen, M-A-X-I-S kitchen. That’s the best place to follow for all the updates, but I’m also on TikTok and YouTube with the same username.

And then maxiskitchen.com is where you can find more of my recipes and newsletter.

For the cookbook specifically, check out mkcookbook.com.

Closing

Incredible. Well, I’m looking forward to holding my very own copy. Good luck on the tour. Good luck with everything. And congrats on achieving your vision.

Thank you so much, Darin. It was so fun to come on the pod. I appreciate it. Hoping to meet you in person at sometime soon.

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In this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with Matt Rodbard, Editor-In-Chief of Taste, the co-host of This Is Taste podcast, and his sub-stack, Food Time with Matt Rodbard, which is required reading if you care about what’s actually happening in food right now. Matt shares his Five Rules for a Food Writer’s Diet, from dialing in your relationship with alcohol, to balancing dining out with cooking at home, to traveling like a journalist, to permitting yourself to call simple meals “cooking.” We also get into coffee as a daily practice, the kind of ritual that sets the tone before the day starts moving too fast.

I love sitting down with Matt because the conversation always lands in that sweet spot between fun, useful, and insider whisperings. We can yap, we can talk scene, we can talk craft, and somehow it always ends with something I always think back on after we part. When food is both your profession and your personal driver, the line between work and pleasure gets blurry fast. Matt is great at naming the difference between mindless consumption and intentional living. Eating and drinking with intention is not about restriction, it’s about clarity. It’s about supporting restaurants, taking care of your body, staying present in the room, and building routines that make the whole ecosystem, your work, your relationships, your energy, actually sustainable.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Intro

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I sit down with one of my favorite people to talk about the culinary community with, Matt Rodbard, who is the Editor-In-Chief of Taste, the co-host of This Is Taste podcast, and his sub-stack, Food Time with Matt Rodbard, is must-reading for anyone who wants insider insights for the food scene. He shares his five rules for a food writer’s diet. and talks about the importance of dining out versus cooking at home, that when traveling, how to get the most out of your adventures, and that by having a preferred coffee practice in the morning is the best way to ensure a fantastic day. I love any time that I get to sit down with Matt. It’s always filled with a fun conversation, a professional take on cooking, and some great takeaway tips for anyone who’s looking to get the most out of life when it comes to food. So let’s get into the rules.

Catching Up

Matt, it is always a pleasure to see you. I knew that we were going to get a late start because we were just yapping away before we even hit record. Welcome to the show.

It’s always good to chat with you. I know we were definitely talking about... Oh, no, we’re going to cut that out. But yes, we were having a very polite conversation about the scene out here.

I’ve known you for decades now. We ran in similar food circles in New York, and we’ve gotten to spend some time together in LA. You’ve been working in the food media industry for 20 years. Do you remember your salad days and those first few meals of eating out?

One of my first food stories was in 2005. I was working at a men’s magazine and I was working with consumer electronics and gadgets. And I took this egg McMuffin maker. Oh yeah. I took it to a restaurant called Chanterelle in Tribeca. Legendary place. Legendary. Run by David Waltock was the chef. I took the egg McMuffin maker there and had him test it out, which is cool. He had some funny thoughts. We wrote a little funny thing. And that was like my first real food media piece, which was 22 years ago.

Memorable Meals

I’m sure with such a long and illustrious career and you’ve traveled the world for not just taste, but for also your writings, your book, Korea World. Do you remember one meal that stands out that only would have happened because of your experience in this line of work?

From Korea world, Dookie Hong and I wrote that book together. And we were in Korea for that book specifically three times. We were outside Gwangju. We had this meal. I’ll tell you a couple of things about it. First, it was like a beck bong, 30 or 40 dishes laid out communal. I don’t drink alcohol. During the shoot, I was the only one not drinking. Yeah. My man, Dookie, had a few drinks. Everyone else got super f*****g s**t-based. Wow. It’s very traditional. We’re sitting on the floor. It was just pure joy to see everyone kind of tipsy. We were hosted by a wonderful Beck Soju maker, and she just started pouring these drinks and kept pouring and pouring and pouring. I just really loved that. The food, of course, was incredible. It was mostly local produce and a lot of like small fermentation dishes. Those are the kind of situations where I only could have gotten into that room with the work I do.

It’s so amazing. And I think that’s the addictive part to this line of work is getting access to those rooms and to having all these incredible meals. The other side of that same coin is that at some point your body gets older and you get older. When did you realize that you maybe needed more of a balanced approach eating out for work and being on the road?

Did it start with a conversation with my doctor? Like a hard conversation at the age of 30, which is 15 years ago. Perhaps. Perhaps that was it. What really started me on the journey of sorts towards thinking a little better about what I was eating was when I stopped drinking in 2015. I just felt like at the time I was just drinking too much. It was affecting my work. It was affecting my personal relationships. And it wasn’t a falling down drunk moment. People around me were dying. Josh Ozersky was a friend of mine. He died. I literally saw him the night he died at the James Beard Awards. It was the night before. And he looked really great. His spirits were super high. Also, I didn’t like the way the interactions that I was having with people in the industry at parties or at events when I’d had a couple cocktails. And remember, this is a decade ago. We’re like, let’s have a corpse reviver and then have a green point and then maybe have a fourth or fifth classic cocktail because everyone was so down with the classic cocktail revival at the time. And I wrote a lot about alcohol. I felt, of course, hungover the next morning. I felt, did I have meaningful conversations with these people? Or was it just a matter of me being drunk and trying to be funny? And to me, it had taken a toll. Either someone’s going to tell you that your cholesterol is higher than a normal individual, or you’re going to wake up a morning saying, I don’t like the way that I feel.

That really makes you think about how you want to approach, in many ways, what is a professional world when you go out to eat and drink, which is why I’m so excited for you to be sharing your five rules for a food writer’s diet.

Rule 1: Don’t Drink Much in Your 30s and Chill in Your 40s

Now, I know you just touched on this. Everyone is going to come to some reckoning with themselves when it comes to drinking alcohol. Your first rule gives a little bit more of a nuanced approach if you don’t want to stop cold turkey. What’s your rule number one?

Rule number one is don’t drink much in your 30s and chill in your 40s. The language is intentionally vague. I’m not trying to be prescriptive here. I’m not saying don’t drink in your 40s. I’m saying basically in your 30s, you’ve got to really watch your consumption. Be aware of what alcohol does to you. You know, learn in your 30s, earn in your 40s. That’s a long time saying. So I think in the 30s, you should be really absorbing what’s around you. You should be finding mentorship, all that. Alcohol can really stop you in your tracks. As you enter your 40s, I’m just saying just chill. Just be chill with your relationship with alcohol. Many people maybe don’t drink at all or drink one day a week. And I think in your 40s, you’re going to actually see a lot, a lot, a lot of results as you really curtail your drinking. You’re setting yourself up for the rest of your life. You want to be healthy. You want to be in a good spot. And your 40s sets that up.

Rule 2: Dine Out More, Cook the Most

A lot of the times that approach to drinking can be affected of where you are dining, whether it’s at home or whether you’re out and about where you feel comfortable or where you’re in control. And your approach to your rule number two can help you find that balance, not just in drinking, but eating and saving money as well.

100%. Rule number two, dine out more, cook the most. Preach it. Two things are here and they’re in direct opposition, kind of a puzzle, right? Here’s what I’m saying. You should dine out and support restaurants. You should learn about food. 100%. You should go out as much as humanly possible for your budget, be it one day a week, two day a week, three days a week, or more. It’s important. And really, food writer’s diet is a larger ethic I live by. And it doesn’t just have to do with what I’m actually consuming. It’s about the diet being how you consume food in your life. Everything about food. Yeah. Media is part of your diet. Recipes, health and wellness. That’s all part of the diet related to food. Through the years of being a food writer, I’ve definitely figured out that if I go out to restaurants more, I’m just going to absorb all these things better. But cook the most. If you’re eating out and you’re dining on your budget, balance that with cooking meals for yourself. We could talk all day about what cooking means. And it certainly doesn’t mean following a recipe from a cookbook and spending $100 and spending half the day no it could be literally opening three packages and putting them together pre-made rice pre-made sauce doll and some protein that is pre-cooked and you’re just heating it all up that’s cooking so i think you should do that the most dine out more cook the most so what do you got to cut out delivery man i haven’t gotten delivery in over a year to me is like do not get delivery

If it’s not prime pizza, I don’t think we’ve had anything delivered to our house in maybe a year. It unpacks some exceptions, and I will say that these rules definitely have some asterisks, and I think pizza is certainly one of them. Sometimes you just need pizza for the kids. Instead of getting Chinese takeout, go to the restaurant. Sit down and have the meal with your friends, with your family. Absorb what’s happening in the room. It’s better for the restaurants. Financially, it’ll be better for you.

Rule 3: Act Like a Food Writer When Traveling

Going out to eat when you’re at home feels like such a luxury, and it’s even more luxurious when you go out into the world and you start traveling. Now, I am definitely one to do a lot of research and to really think out all my meals and really understand where I’m going when I go and see different parts of this wonderful world, which is a fundamental approach to rule number three.

Rule number three, when traveling for vacation or fun, you should act like a food writer. Yes. What does that mean? A couple things. A good food writer does their research, but also a good food writer travels open-mindedly, travels with two eyes open. So of course we all have done this and we have our 50 to a hundred spots on the Google map of the city that we’re traveling to. Yep. Go to a few of those places, but also when you’re there, be it Stockholm, be it Madison, Wisconsin, you’re in Portland. Oregon or Maine you’re in Mexico City have a plan but also act like a journalist act like a food writer absorb observe and really understand your surroundings and really take some chances and let the story find you I’ll say just taking a walk talking to some people on the ground don’t feel like you have to hit the eight places on the map because I think the best writers find the story

Rule 4: Permission to Call Re-Heating Things Cooking

Going out into the world and looking at food through a writer or professional point of view, and then coming home and feeling that you also have to cook food, maybe something that’s topical or trending, can be overwhelming. It can be daunting to the point of where I know that I’ve had paralysis in the kitchen of Just saying, I’m going to open up a can of tuna, throw in some mayo, and put it on some stale crackers, and that is dinner. Your fourth rule allows me to say that this type of approach to cooking is more than okay. What’s your rule number four?

Rule number four is permission to call re-hitting things cooking. I’m here for it. We as food writers, we project this idea that you have to cook in a certain way, that you have to cook through a cookbook, or you have to make stock from scratch to put into that sauce. There’s been plenty of work around it where we debunk this and we say 30-minute meals are okay, et cetera, et cetera. I think we still, in an effort to explain home cooking, to flex our food writer badge, look, hear a cop showing up at an investigation, you click down the food writer. We tend to do that as food writers. We tend to try to project ourselves as experts by over-explaining and being a little bit more intricate with the way we describe food and cooking. I’m of the opposite opinion. I think that we need to democratize food more. Your example is great. A tuna salad on crackers with basically celery and mayonnaise and tuna. I didn’t say celery. Oh, sorry. You just shamed me right there, man. All right. Sorry. I had no celery for you, but just tuna and mayo. That is cooking. There was a whole era where Rachel Ray was basically dog for the semi-homemade approach. F**k that, man. That is great. That’s smart. And I think what’s happened since Rachel Ray to now is we have so many incredible products that arrive fully formed. Oh yeah. We’ve got freeze-dried soups and sauces from around the world using products that are local. I, as a food writer and part of the food writer’s diet, is acknowledging that that is actually really good, that you’re making that meal for yourself, that you’re actually turning on the oven or even not. You’re using the microwave. That’s still the act of cooking.

Being able to tap into the global network of pre-made products, whether it’s Chili Crisp, is such an amazing type of hack when you’re cooking at home, especially those workhorse Tuesday night, get food on the table meals. I mean, I sneak fish sauce into everything I cook. Shout out to Red Boat. Oh yeah.

Rule 5: Have a Coffee Practice

Your fifth and final rule flips it to the morning because that’s when the writer starts. That’s when sometimes they do their best work. And having this routine, this ritual in your life gets the day going and makes everything hit a little bit better. What’s your rule number five?

My fifth rule to really live the life of a food writer, to follow the food writer’s diet is have a coffee practice. I intentionally worded this slightly broadly because I’m not saying a certain type of process is better than the other. I’ve found myself really rewarded by thinking a little bit more deeply about coffee. Coffee is one of the world’s greatest affordable luxuries. Having a little bit of a deeper relationship with coffee and having a practice, you’re going to live a better life. You’re going to wake up excited to try a new coffee that you bought online, or you’re going to wake up and feel like you can make a cup of coffee that’s better than the cup of coffee that you’ve had to drink the day before because you were in your office early and they only had those push button machines. It could be espresso too. Not going to ignore that. You could have an espresso machine, make yourself a latte, learn some latte art. Maybe you’re using a scale, which I fully endorse. You don’t have to. I’m not making a rule that you have to have a scale, but having that practice and having that kind of ritual and that method and using the right extraction process using like a Chemex or a V60, you’re going to be able to rate the coffees that you purchased. You’re going to appreciate coffee in a deeper way. In fact, when I travel, I bring coffee with me to the room. I actually use a little camping dripper. Yeah. And I won’t leave my hotel room without drinking my own coffee. Makes a difference. And it truly makes my day better. It’s like bringing your own robe on a trip.

Wrap-Up

Matt, thank you so much for sharing these five rules. If people want to listen to the podcast or read the fantastic Substack or get your book, The show is called This Is Taste. And yeah, I write a sub stack. You should just check it out. I cover similar topics. It’s a place where I like to just write freely about fun stuff. And taste, tastecooking.com.

Amazing. Well, Matt, I can’t wait to see you in LA. Always fun to share a meal.

Darin, it’s been great to catch up with you. Thank you for inviting me on.

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In this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, I dial up Omaha to chat with sushi chef, David Utterback, to talk about what it means to build a craft without a traditional roadmap. David shares his Five Rules for Being an Apprentice Without a Master, tracing a path shaped by the Saddle Creek music scene, a life-changing trip to Japan, and the decision to develop a personal philosophy instead of chasing someone else’s version of mastery. It’s a conversation about focus, humility, and the long game, told through sushi counters, punk shows, and the discipline of starting over when you think you’ve figured it out.

This one hits close to home for me because the overlap between music and food has always been where I feel most grounded. Snacky Tunes came out of that same punk, DIY instinct, make the thing yourself, build the community around it, learn by doing, and don’t wait for permission. That ethos has shaped how I eat, how I host, how I create, and how I move through the world. Punk isn’t just a sound or a look, it’s a way of paying attention, of choosing intention over polish and substance over shortcuts. Applied to cooking, music, or life, it’s about showing up honestly, trusting your taste, and building something that feels true because you made it your own.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Intro

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I’m in Omaha, hanging out with sushi chef David Utterback, who’s here to share his five rules to being an apprentice without a master. He talks about how the Saddle Creek music scene shaped his outlook on life, how a fateful trip to Japan changed the course of his cooking career, and how by starting over with a personal philosophy is the best way to move forward in life. It’s a deeply insightful conversation from someone who helped put sushi on the map in the Midwest. So let’s get into the rules.

Meeting David in Omaha

David, it’s so nice to meet you. Thank you for making the time to sit down and chat. Hopefully you’re keeping warm in Omaha.

Yeah, I’m trying to. It’s pretty cold here right now.

I first heard of Omaha as the legendary punk indie scene with Saddle Creek Records, and I knew that was a big part of your coming up. What drew you into that music scene as a young guy?

Girls. Yeah. You know, yeah, when you’re in high school, you’re just trying to do whatever you can to look cool, I guess. Joining a band was the thing to do. Punk music, we didn’t really know how to play instruments very well. And so it’s a really great place to start because you can build all of those songs with just a couple of power chords. At the time, the music scene here is just incredible. One of the capitals of independent music at the time. So it was a really great time to get into music.

From Punk to Sushi

That punk aesthetic really influenced your whole life and your approach to cooking in the way that you wanted to make the food you want to make, especially prevalent in a fateful trip to Japan in 2008. How did this approach to life eventually affect your culinary career?

Before then, I had no interest in being a lifer in the restaurant industry. Most people who, especially at the time, get into the restaurant industry, you’re a pirate. I was living in a house with all my bandmates and their girlfriends. There’s 10 of us living in this house. Incredible. Didn’t have any money. So got a job at a sushi restaurant. Didn’t have plans to do anything more, but this fateful trip that I had taken to Japan by chance ended up at this famous sushi counter. Kind of put everything into focus. Before then, I had never worked at a restaurant where anybody was a professional. These guys, they sort of blew me away. That trip, it’s where I decided to focus. Instead of trying to do everything, I focused on one thing and that changed it all.

It changed it all for the better and it put you on this fateful track to open up sushi and omakase restaurants in Omaha. Yeah. Which is a very punk thing to do because not the first place you would think. And I’m sure there are people who are dismissive saying you’re going to open what type of restaurant where. Yeah. How did that trip and how did your belief in punk music and that DIY approach give you the confidence to do it?

Especially coming up at the time in the music scene, it was the perfect time to be a musician. You’re recording your first album on tape. You’re recording your second album on Pro Tools, right? You’re doing everything by yourself. It’s the beginning of being able to make your own music, produce it, record it, and distribute it all on your own. So me and everybody here in the city, we were all doing this. When you go to open up the restaurant and the mindset, everything’s possible. You can do it. You’re only limited by how hard you’re willing to work.

Setting Up the Rules

That hard work, especially in this field of sushi and omakase, usually comes with a big apprenticeship. That’s definitely one way to do it and a similar path that many people have followed, which is why I’m so excited to chat with you about your five rules to being an apprentice without a master, which is a bit of a unique and novel approach to really learning a hundred year old tradition. But you talk about really setting yourself up in your rule number one.

Rule 1: Define a Master, Develop a Goal

Rule number one here is, you know, and these weren’t rules where I had made them before. You kind of look back on a career and realize the steps you’ve taken. And for me, rule one was define a master, develop a goal. That trip to that counter that really set a goal for me. It was, these guys are so cool. I want to be just like them. I want to make food on their level. That was back in 2008. I had decided to do that. Came back from the trip and was like, okay, enough with everything else. Not going back to school. I’m going to do this. You know, focus.

Rule 2: Become a Student

It’s funny you talk about not going back to school because it seems like you are going after a different education. A lot of the times with punk rock and DIY, you can eschew learning and just dive head in. But your rule number two talks about the importance of getting fundamentals and working towards gaining a base of knowledge before you go on your own path. What’s your rule number two?

Rule number two is become a student. We live in a time where all information is available. And so becoming a student doesn’t seem like it’s necessary. But when I’m coming up in 2008, I desperately want to be like these sushi chefs, but they have a deep apprenticeship program. Coming back from Japan at that time, there’s definitely less than 10 omakase counters in the United States. There really isn’t anyone to teach this material. And so I quickly realized if I want to know something that I need to teach it to myself. And so that means becoming a student, developing what we call in the sushi game waza or skill. I start buying every book on sushi and fish in English, every single one. Sure. The good ones, the bad ones, the at. home for moms anything that might have a little piece of information and i start doing that in japan too i start buying every book in japanese i can find i take myself to jimbocho which is a an area of town that just has used bookstores

And I just spend two days popping in each store, just asking each shop owner, do you have any books on sushi? And so now I’ve got this crazy collection. I’m having to use my mom to help translate. I’m looking at pictures, just trying to get any sort of information that I can to get me closer to my goal.

Rule 3: Visit Masters

I love this idea of gathering the knowledge on your own, becoming a student and reading up, gathering a strong base before you go out and sit with people who have been doing this for so long. It just seems that it leads to such a deeper conversation and you’re not wasting anyone’s time, which is a fundamental of your rule number three.

Visit masters. It really does tie in with rule two. Because music or any other creative art form, you can’t just create. It’s got to come from somewhere. You need someone to influence you. You need to see what you like. You’re not creating whole new cuisine out of nowhere. You need to be influenced. You need to know what’s good. You need to develop. a palate. You need to develop taste memory. From that first trip, I start going and visiting every single one of these counters I can get into in Japan.

At the time, these guys are known in Japan, but there isn’t a sushi craze or sushi counter boon that we’re experiencing now. And so I’m eating with guys like Takashi Saito when he has one Michelin star and He’s in the parking garage near the U.S. Embassy right now. He’d gone on to get three stars, lose them all because he becomes too famous. What a time. I’m picking up tricks. I’m seeing how they do it. I’m learning about the culture of the cuisine and the counter and how they conduct dinner, how they work with guests, how they talk, how they present food. Then I’m tasting it. I’m holding on to these things, making notes. and trying to come back home and reverse engineer these things. This abalone liver sauce is so delicious. How do I come home and reverse engineer it from memory?

Visiting these guys at the top of the game, they give you a reference point. They help train by actually consuming the food. Having this postmodern approach where you’re doing your research and visiting multiple masters of this cuisine instead of following or working under one person is very, very different than most people who study sushi because it’s one way and you’re just trying to impress your master and work your way up to their level of skill so that one day you may take over. But being able to pull from these books and from all these different counters allows you to create your rule number four.

Rule 4: Creative Philosophy

Rule number four is creative philosophy. Who are you? What was the point of all of this? Why are you trying to get to this level? For me, in the beginning, I did exactly what pretty much everyone does now, which is copy somebody’s work. It’s cosplay now. You have folks who maybe never visited one of these counters and they’ve only seen pictures on the internet. Mm hmm. They’re trying to copy what they see without ever having experienced it in person.

Also, you have apprentices. They’ll spend five, ten years working under somebody. They leave their apprenticeship and they’ve been taught how it’s done. Exactly. And when you leave that restaurant, you can create the work. of the master it’s like being an apprentice of Rembrandt you learn how to paint but when you get finished you can’t really create much of your own work no you can recreate the master’s work be a disciple it’s hard to move beyond that here we’re so far away from that apprenticeship program that now we’re trying to copy sometimes a disciple or something else we’re making copies of copies mm-hmm

The cuisine has gotten very, boring is the wrong word, but very sane. Uniform. Everybody’s trying to do the exact same thing. And so when I say create a philosophy, I realized at some point about eight, nine years ago that I was trying to recreate this meal that I had in 2008. For folks in Japan, in the apprenticeship program, that’s difficult for even them to do. And they’re there. Exactly. So I decided about eight years ago when I opened up the restaurant to just stop chasing them and trying to do my own thing. Try to create not what I think people will like, but what I actually like. And that’s been informed by my experiences.

Rule 5: Start Over

That idea of letting go, becoming your own person with your own philosophy and your own experiences ties directly into your fifth and final rule. Yeah. What’s your rule number five?

Start over, man. Talk about it. I hate the word master. I know we’ve said it a whole bunch. There’s no other word and it’s just been baked into culinary society. It just feels gross when you say it. It’s like, oh, this person is a master. No, there aren’t. And even at the top, I’m getting to know some of these chefs in Japan and I’m spending time in their kitchens and I’m learning that even they don’t know stuff. Of course.

Funny story. I’m working with one guy. We’re doing a dinner together. He has a famous dish. And I make a version of it too. It’s called tamago yaki. It’s an egg custard. He says, we’re going to do your egg custard. And I said, no, you have a famous one. I want to learn yours. I want to see yours. And he goes, no, no, no, no, no. Let’s do yours. Yours is very good. No, no, no, no. I want to do yours. And you go back and forth on this. And finally he goes, David, I don’t actually know how to make it.

That is the recipe that one of the apprentices makes and they share it and they make it at their house in their oven and they bring it to the restaurant. Wow. And too much time has gone by with this being attached to me as a famous dish that I can’t all of a sudden say, teach me how to do this. You know, it’s kind of a part of his career, but he doesn’t actually know how to make it. He’s like, David, you show me, babe. Right. It’s there that I learned that, wow, these guys don’t actually know everything.

The more I spend time with chefs and at counters around the US and Japan, there’s just so many different ways to do it. Every time I sit down in front of a new chef and I have an exceptional meal, my brain just gets scrambled. Mm-hmm. I used to think I had figured it out and I was pretty good. And now this guy just kind of put me back in my place. That just happens yearly. I start to get a little bit of an ego where I’m like, yeah, I got this. I’m pretty good now. And then I sit down with somebody and they just show me what’s up. It’s the best. It is.

Wrap-Up

David, congratulations on everything. Thank you for sharing the philosophy. Very refreshing to hear this approach, not just to cooking, but to life in general. If people want to come and sit at your counter and have some of your food, how can they visit? Where can they see what you’re up to?

Instagram is the new business card. So it’s @DavidYoshitomo on Instagram. If you manage to find yourself in Omaha, Nebraska, you know, we’d love to have you at Yoshitomo. At the sushi counter, it’s a little bit more difficult. Instagram is always the best place to just send a message and say hi.

Incredible. Well, hopefully the faint are going to have some sort of 50-year reunion and I can hit both the dance floor and the counter. Thank you so much for making the time and hope to be in Omaha sooner than later.

Yeah, I’d love to have you, man.

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In this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, I’m joined by Telly Justice, executive chef and co-owner of HAGS, one of the most exciting restaurants to come out of New York in the last few years. She shares her Five Rules for Building Trust with your Restaurant & Brand, not through hype, but through how you show up every day. Telly talks about the importance of knowing yourself, being consistent, striving for equitability, communicating early and often, and enthusiastically accepting accountability. She breaks down how those ideas move from a mission statement to the dining room, the kitchen, and the community that forms around the work.

This one resonates because it is a reminder that the real flex is reliability. Showing up for yourself, your work, and your team with intention and purpose is not a slogan, it is a practice. When you respect the people who support your projects, your staff, your guests, your regulars, the quiet tables, the loud ones, you build something that can actually hold weight. Everything is connected. The culture in the kitchen shows up in the dining room. The consistency on a Tuesday shows up in the trust on a Saturday. It all works as one ecosystem, and when you take responsibility for your part in it, the whole thing gets stronger.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I am joined by Telly Justice, the executive chef and co-owner of one of the most exciting restaurants to come out of New York in the last few years, Hags. She’s here to share her five rules for building trust with your restaurant and brand. We talk about the importance of consistency, that good communication allows for everyone to have a seat at the table, and that by practicing self-accountability lets you keep showing up for your team. It’s a great conversation from one of Food & Wine’s Best New Chefs of 2025 and an inspiring conversation for anyone who’s looking to build a better relationship with their staff, diners, or their restaurant at large. So let’s get into the rules.

Telly, it is so nice to meet you. I know you’ve been having a very busy January, so I appreciate you taking the time to sit down and chat with me.

Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be talking with you. I’m a big fan. This podcast is awesome.

Oh, I really appreciate that. And I’m a huge fan of Hags, your restaurant. It’s been such an amazing thing to see come together and the community that you’ve created both in and around the restaurant. How early into the concept did you start thinking about the relationship you wanted to have with your customers at Hags?

Our vision for our relationship with customers predated our decision to open the brick and mortar, especially as initially a pop-up concept that was born in 2020 during the pandemic. We really wanted to get out there and do what we did just to make people feel a sense of community and a sense of care and joy. We knew that we had this talent and this skill, and we wanted to share it with people. We didn’t expect it to turn into what we’ve built over time. We didn’t expect to open a brick and mortar so quickly. Yeah, it came from this place of caring about people first, and that was essential to when we built hags the brick and mortar being able to be guided by a clear mission statement that isn’t necessarily exactly the food you want to cook or the spot you’re going to open I think does lead to this authenticity and this success your mission statement is by queer people for all people yes why was it so important to you to position hags in this way

Speaking to the queer people component, the first part of that sentence, we knew that that was going to be the larger food world’s vision of us. And we wanted to own that first and foremost. We wanted to say that part of ourselves out loud and show that we were proud of it and that that was a place of authenticity for us to operate from and a crucial aspect of building our community. But we also wanted to, following up with the second half of that sentence, we wanted to make sure that everybody felt invited and encouraged and a part of what we were building. And we didn’t see it as an exclusively queer project, but we did want to see ourselves as whole and equal in the exchange as queer people doing the work. So that whole sentence really communicates what we were about when we were building the pop-up and what we continue to be about today.

You’ve successfully been able to communicate what you’re about, both by what you stand for and the food you cook. So much so that Food & Wine named you one of the best new chefs of 2025. And not that outside acknowledgement is everything, but it is nice every once in a while to receive such an accolade. How did you feel hearing the news and what has it meant to you as a chef and restaurant owner and as a person?

won’t lie i’ve been cooking in this industry professionally for almost 20 years now and amazing when you event that kind of time in these kitchens especially high-end fine dining you can’t help but have that dream that goal i want to awards i want to see myself in that magazine so many of my heroes walked that path and they gave me this thing to look out towards they gave me this goal to look to as a I was clawing my way through these kitchens. It’s hard work and you have to have something to dream about. You have to have something to believe in. When I left the fine dining world behind at the peak of the pandemic to do this pop-up, I kind of forgot all of that. I left it behind in a lot of ways. My goals changed and my priorities changed. What I wanted to do, what I wanted to access with Hags, a restaurant in New York City, became very different from the goals that I had as a young cook. And we were able to achieve a lot of our goals in building meaningful community and feeding some really great people that I love showing up and feeding every day in our dining room.

When we found out that I was receiving this accolade from food and wine, it was totally out of left field because we just hadn’t thought about it. It wasn’t something that we were actively pursuing. We were pursuing other things. of course it took a moment of recalibrating what this means to me and what it means to me now that i have this deeply personal restaurant not for nothing hags is a business and it’s been an incredible boon to our business it’s brought a lot of people and a lot of attention our way i would say mostly if not exclusively very positive i love that i love that for the cooks in the kitchen they feel their work is meaningful it’s special they see people out in the dining room getting more and more excited about the project i love that for them i still feel like A regular old chef just cooking it out every day. I don’t think it’s changed how I feel about my practice of cooking much, but I do love to see the effects. It’s really cool.

Seeing those effects and seeing the dining room full every night is such a fantastic thing to have created and been a part of, and something that takes effort every day which is why I’m so excited for you to be sharing your five rules for building trust with your restaurant and brand stepping away from the fine dining world can be scary especially with all of its guardrails because of those strict confinements it doesn’t always allow you to explore who you really are which could ultimately hinder you from finding your real success which is a big part of your rule number one

Rule number one for me is know yourself. Self-knowledge is so incredibly crucial to any personal project, but also be curious about others. It is really hard when you’re struggling to access that self-knowledge to be truly available to your curiosities about where other people are coming from. Starting with who am I? What do I bring to the table? What kind of food do I want to cook? What kind of restaurant do I want to run? How do I want my guests to feel in my space? That’s so essential. It can’t be something you adopt or inherit from a job that you’ve worked or another restaurant that you’ve come from. You have to think critically about what these things mean to you and how you’re going to build a personal space that represents you and communicates your values, your vision, your ethos. And when you do that, you create so much space for other people to be themselves, which is so lovely when you’re curious about where they’re coming from.

When our diners come in, we love to ask them more than just how their experience or how the food is, but how was your day? That’s amazing. Where are you coming from? Where are you going? What are you about? What are your interests? What drew you to our space? And by the end of the meal, I find we have more than just diners. We have new friends. We have new neighbors. We have new community members. And that develops such a level of community loyalty, community trust, and a deeper understanding than I think you see at most restaurants. And that’s one of the beautiful things that I get to experience in this space.

Having people return, not just guests, but those who work with you and the world at large to your restaurant, to what you’re doing, is such a beautiful thing. But it also comes with a big responsibility of creating the same experience or creating a baseline that people can expect whenever they walk through your doors or sit down with you, which leads into your rule number two.

Number two is be very consistent. This is an important follow-up to knowing yourself. It can be really easy to perform what you think you ought to be doing. Yes. But if you know yourself and you know how you cook, if you know how you serve, then when a guest comes in a second, a third, a fourth time, you don’t have to try to meet their expectations. They already know what to expect. They’re expecting you. So be consistent with how you’re showing. If you showed them warmth and curiosity the first time, return that warmth, that curiosity the second time, the third time. And if you continue to just show up exactly how you are, exactly how you do things with deep consistency, then you build something of a foundation that is closer to a relationship than a transaction. And people trust that deeply. They start to get to know the staff’s name. They start to see the interesting highlights on the menu that even if it’s seasonal and it’s changing constantly, they see your personality, they see your tastes. And that draws them deeper into the project that you’ve built. So consistency is huge for building trust.

Being one of the people who helped create Hags and being named one of the best new chefs, it’d be very easy for you to say, it’s about me. I’m the face. This is my show. Even if it’s just outward facing for PR reasons and make the story very easy to tell. Yeah. But that approach usually leads to short-term personal gains, but not long-term growth. How you allow for the sustainability of success makes up your rule number three.

Rule number three is strive for equitability. What this means to me is in any kitchen, in any front of house service facing dynamic, there are always going to be loud voices. I’m a loud voice. I take up a lot of space. There are a lot of people that are quick to express their opinions, that are quick to be the mouthpiece. I’m guilty of that. But I think that especially as a leader, you have to be able to survey the room and see who’s the quiet one, whose voice isn’t being heard. How do I get close to them and in good faith source their voice, their opinion? How do I build them up? How do I put a pedestal under every individual so that everybody succeeds as we succeed in the restaurants? And we do that with the diners as well. We want to make sure that the shy person at the corner table is getting the same kind of warmth and hospitality that the folks that come in ready to party and throw down with us are getting. That levels the playing field. It makes them level with me in as many ways as I can share. There are always important creative ways to like dig deeper into that equitability project. Speaking to it and always showing up in every dynamic, looking for that person that is getting less, that is slightly quieter, that is being heard less is so essential in creating a trusting environment and a trusting culture.

Being able to differ differentiate the different type of approach and talking to people is really tough as a leader. Knowing how one person’s going to respond or even a stranger who’s walking for the first time takes a lot of practice and it takes a lot of effort, especially if you want to be able to keep things moving along and keep the open channels of conversation going, which makes up your rule number four.

Rule number four is communicate early and often. There are always going to be issues. There are always going to be problems, surprises. Chaos is inherent to our world. All the time. Especially we find it deeply embedded in restaurant work. It’s really important, especially from a leadership perspective, but really at any point in the hierarchy to communicate issues, communicate concerns, communicate advice and do it early and do it frequently. As much as you can be talking to one another about what to expect, what to react to, own that honestly, especially this is leading into rule number five. But when you’re the source of the chaos, when you’re the source of the issue, it’s really important to be like, hey, by the way, I just broke a tray of glasses. It’s going to impact things for you, for me, for the diners. We got to talk about it. And I’m not going to shy away from that conversation. It’s really, really important to recognize when there’s something important to communicate, doing it quickly and doing it as much as necessary for that information to land and be absorbed into the dynamic.

Knowing that you yourself can be the chaos, which ties back to rule number one, is just as important as everything else of being consistent and striving for equability and communicating. And your fifth and final rule really ties it all together. Because there are days where you have to recognize you are the leader, you are the loudest, you are taking up the most space, and that sometimes things are going to go wrong. Yeah. What’s your rule number five?

Rule number five is enthusiastically accept accountability. Talk about it. Not just begrudgingly, which I think we all have these moments in our lives where we mess up. Yeah. We’re the problem. Mm-hmm. It can really sting to be like, yeah, I did that. I’m sorry. I think if you show up to those moments and you’re enthusiastic about saying, I really messed up. I really wish I hadn’t done this thing. I really wish that I hadn’t served you this dish cold. I recognize that I failed you and your expectations in this situation. And... I’m really sorry. Centering the person that feels slighted or is disadvantaged by your actions, hearing them out, give them space, give them a little time to offer you that accountability and receive it. It’s so important. The more you do it and the more practiced you are at receiving that accountability for your actions, the easier it is, the less scary it is. It never stings as much as you think it will. The more you do it, the more people trust you to be open and honest and earnest with their feedback. And then it stings even less. It feels like an essential part of building a meaningful relationship. That’s where trust lives. Even though it’s the fifth rule, it’s probably the most important one. You don’t need to know yourself to accept accountability. You just need to know that we all mess up. We all make mistakes. We all have to sit with it every once in a while.

What a beautiful sentiment to end on. Telly, congratulations on everything. If people want to see what Hags is up to, make a reservation, see what you’re cooking, where can they go?

Please check us out on Instagram. We’re at Hags underscore NYC. Also, we have a really ugly website, HagsNYC.com. Check it out. Our dog, Tootie, who is the restaurant’s mascot, is on there. You’ll see a great picture of him. and come to us in the east village we’re at first ave and 10th street we’re open wednesday through friday for dinner and on sundays we do a really awesome brunch 11 a.m to 3 p.m it’s pay whatever you want fully sliding scale it’s a lot of fun i love it come by

Well, next time i’m in the city i’ll be coming in for a little chaos and fun right telly thanks again great to see you thank you so much such a pleasure

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In this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with Katie Parla, a Rome-based writer, guide, and one of the clearest voices on how Italy really works. Not the fantasy version, not the TikTok version, but the real one shaped by neighborhoods, side streets, long lunches, and very good food. Katie shares her Five Rules for Actually Connecting with Italian Culture, from skipping the obvious cities to renting a car to leaving space for meals you did not plan. We talk about how Romans really eat, why oxtail sauce explains more about Italy than most guidebooks, and how letting go of romantic expectations leads to better trips, better meals, and better stories.

I love this episode because it is advice you can trust. Katie lives this life. She is not visiting Italy, she is in it, navigating it, working within it, and loving it every day. That perspective changes everything. Her rules are practical, but they are also generous, because they permit you to travel differently, to slow down in the right moments, and to stop chasing someone else’s version of a perfect trip. Listening to her makes you want to book a flight, yes, but more importantly, it makes you want to travel better, with curiosity, humility, and a little bit of chaos, which is usually where the best meals live.

You can pick up her new book Rome: A Culinary History, Cookbook, and Field Guide to the Flavors that Built a City, which is available wherever books are sold.

Photo by Ed Anderson

My latest piece for Pellegrino’s Fine Dining Lovers is out, and it’s a close look at how Brian Dunsmoor thinks about craft, control, and momentum. It moves from his garage pool table to the hearth at Dunsmoor, tracing how his intention and patience shape the way he cooks and leads. It’s about the small disciplines that add up to mastery, and why doing less, better, is often the whole point.

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

It is always a pleasure when I get to sit down with today’s guest, Katie Parla, whose new book, Rome, is out on Parla Publishing. You might know her for some of her incredible writing on the food and beverage of Rome, or been lucky enough to take one of her guided tours around the city. She shares her five rules for actually connecting with Italian culture and and talks about the importance of renting a car so you can make your way to lesser known cities, how to avoid the pitfalls of trusting everything you see on social media, and why leaving some room for unexpected meals is the best way to have an authentic adventure.

If you’re like me and so many other people, you know that Katie has her finger on the pulse of what’s going on in Italy today. So let’s get into the rules.

Katie, so good to see you. Thank you for making time, literally pulling over on the side of the road during your incredible book tour to chat with me for Five Rules. Welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for hitting me up. I’m stoked to talk to you.

I, like so many others, have hit you up when I was planning my first trip to Rome. And despite you knowing the city so well, do you still feel the pressure to pick the right recommendation for the person who’s hitting you up? Rome is definitely a place that is becoming expensive to visit. It’s becoming increasingly complicated because of social media, blowing up places that don’t do good food or care about their stuff or ingredients. I think it’s even more important to direct people to quote unquote the right places so that the people whose work I really appreciate and treasure are able to compete in that new economy.

It’s so tricky to navigate these major cities, especially with social media and all of these best of lists. And what I love about your new book, Rome, is that you say it’s not a best of Rome book. It’s about the real Rome. How would you define the real Rome and how long did it take for you to discover it?

I mean, I’ve been chipping away at it for almost a quarter century now.

Incredible.

There are many real Romes. Everyone who lives in Rome and obsesses over it has a reality shaped by what neighborhood they’ve lived in, where they work. And Rome is really dense and it’s gigantic. When I set about breaking down what I think is the real Rome, I was thinking about sharing with people the widest panorama that I could of how Romans eat, how they encounter their food system, where they shop, what they’re thinking about when they’re at a wine bar. And delivering, of course, recipes. But most of the book, as you’ve seen, not recipes. It’s culture, it’s history, it’s urbanism, all in the service of showing the full picture of Roman cuisine, which is not just at the trattoria. It’s not just at the pizzeria. It’s in homes. It’s in cafeterias. It’s in these small moments, Daniel and cobblestones, eating pizza, attempting not to stain your clothes.

I would say I have a couple of white linen pants from a summer in Rome that did not quite come back unscathed.

That’s on you. You got to think about patterns. Wear patterned clothes when you’re visiting.

I know, I know. But the heat, it’s a balance.

That’s real.

As you’ve done a deep dive into these homes and side streets in the city, what is the one dish that if you’re going to eat or learn to make that really connects you to the country world?

Something that always comes to mind that encapsulates a lot is rigatoni with sauce that oxtails have been simmered in. Oxtails are often written off as peasant food, when in reality, they were enticing to all classes. Popes ate them, peasants ate them. This is one of those myth-busting dishes that shows it’s really delicious, but it also has an ingredient that would be status-driven as well. What’s great about it is you can simmer oxtails for hours... serve the oxtail segments as your main and then just use the tomato based sauce to dress your rigatoni and it’s delicious it’s caloric it’s savory it’s practical and it’s pragmatic because we don’t have a lot of time anymore to hang out in rome and this like dolce farniente b******t that everyone lies about is not how we it’s not how we live everyone’s got a side hustle there’s no permanent work anymore and people have to really struggle to get by and when they cook they want it to have maximum impact and those one pot two meal situations are huge help

Understanding the best way to navigate Italy is something that takes a long time to master. It’s something that people want to master, which is why I’m so excited to chat about your five rules for actually connecting with Italian culture. Cutting through all the Instagram, cutting through all the AI nonsense, cutting through all of the lists and guides, really understanding that to travel a country and to dig in is such a rewarding process.

When you fly into Italy, you’re flying into Rome or Venice or Florence, one of the big cities. And your first rule talks about, while these places are great, and you’ve literally written the book on one of them, that you should explore other parts of the country. What’s your rule number one?

My number one rule, skip Rome, Venice, and Florence, and don’t sleep on the secondary or tertiary destinations. This is a rule that goes against my self-interest. I have a tour company, and so I lead tours in Rome and Venice. Florence isn’t really my vibe, so I don’t bother with it.

No, it sucks. I love Florence.

Are you scandalized?

A little scandalized.

I know. There are Florence people and there are Rome people. I’m a Rome people.

Now that I’ve turned the audience against me and the host.

There are places, Senigalia on the Adriatic coast, Ravenna a bit further north, Campo Basso in Molise. When you’re thinking about regions to visit, everyone says like, oh, I’m going to Emilia-Romagna. And they go to Parma, Modena, and Bologna. And those are all very, very busy and popular right now. But they’re in Emilia. Right. Why not ditch Amelia and go to Romania instead? It’s amazing. It’s coastal. There are delicious lard-based breads everywhere. It’s fantastic.

When you’re in these tertiary spaces, there’s a higher proportion of real live people who live and work there that you’re going to be encountering. They’re probably going to be less embittered. They’re going to speak less English, but you’ll still be able to have these experiences, whether it’s at the table or at your B&B or driving around and being at cafes where you’ll encounter the culture in a more profound way than when you’re on the well-worn tourist path.

Yeah. People get on this well-worn tourist path. They’re chasing what they saw on social media or trying to get the same shot. But it would be really exciting for you to be the first person to post something on social media that other people can follow. But it’s hard not to get caught up in what is your rule number two.

My rule number two is don’t believe TikTok. She lies. There’s so much bad information. The content creators who work in the Italy space, many of them have no idea what they’re talking about. Or they do know stuff, but they know that controversial takes are going to get the most views.

So people are always like, Katie Parla, what if I want a cappuccino after 1130? In Rome, you can have that. No one’s going to get mad at you as long as it’s not ordered at a restaurant or trattoria. Go to any cafe. Also, you don’t have to eat 25 maritotsi when you’re in Rome. I couldn’t even name 25 places that do really good leavened buns filled with whipped cream. But you should have one at Santa Palata, which never ends up on social media, unfortunately. That consequently means that there aren’t lines around the block. This is a shame. She’s the best. Sarah Ciccolini rules.

Be skeptical about what people say are the rules because there’s so many exceptions. And if you follow the social media rules and avoid eating cheese with fish, that means you’re going to miss out on one of Rome’s most delicious delicacies. Stuffed squash blossoms filled with mozzarella and salted anchovy. It is the best.

All those smaller delicacies, what people don’t realize who haven’t been to Italy is that it’s all regional specific. And so that by getting out of the main cities, you’re going to find more variations on some of the more famous cuisine, which is super exciting.

Getting there is pretty tricky unless you follow your rule number three.

My rule number three is rent a car. It makes all the difference.

Oh, 100%. Agreed.

I will caveat. You have to put full insurance on your car so you will have a consequence-free experience.

Yes. You can go anywhere in Italy. You can drive off an embankment as long as you bring... Actually, you don’t have to bring back even the steering wheel. You can destroy that car. It’ll cost you 50 bucks a day and it’s worth every penny, but it will take you to places, remote mountains, abandoned beach towns.

Mm-hmm.

gravel roads where the traffic jams are bovine based. You’ll just have all of this access to the landscapes and the nature of Italy. It will be a real game changer.

The first car we rented, we returned with the entire right side scraped off.

Love that energy.

Second on that insurance tip.

This fourth rule probably goes against everything that I stand for when it comes to planning a trip. And I say that as someone who has taken your information that you’ve given me and put it into an Excel grid with everything planned out. Your rule number four is heavily opposed to it.

Don’t plan your meals.

I don’t understand.

Also, I’m a hypocrite. I do plan my meals.

Yeah. Hear me out.

Okay.

When you plan your meals and you got the spreadsheet and you got your Santa Palato and your Armando Pantheon and your Trattoria da Cesare and you’re going here and you’re going there, the risk of having a real adventure, of getting lost, of finding something unexpected, of being uncomfortable, of meeting people, it’s a different game.

I can agree. People pay me money to build their itineraries. I always say, I will tell you where to eat, but will you trust me that we should leave a few things open so that you can have a real adventure the way that people used to travel hundreds of years ago in the 1990s before we all had computers in our pockets?

I don’t love having a bad meal. I don’t enjoy it. I do personally crave the pre-social media and pre-internet travel era. If anyone else is in that ship, I give you permission to not plan every single meal. I understand that sense of discovery and I understand sometimes you have to let go to have the best thing you’ve ever ate. It could happen. You could have the worst or best meal of your life by accident.

Letting go and having this carefree trip to Italy definitely falls into this romantic idealism, especially if you’re younger, to go out and say, I’m going to just fall in love with the country, the food and everything.

Your fifth and final rule, however, cautions putting so much pressure on your trip. What’s your rule number five?

Let go of your romantic stereotypes.

I understand we all want to live that hashtag spritz life, which you can now absolutely do in anywhere. 190 countries. Literally anywhere. If you’re just going on vacation to Italy, you don’t really care about actually learning the way that the culture works. Ignore what I’m saying. But if you want to get into the mindset of Italian reality, if you want to understand how the people around you are living their lives, know that 80% of food in Italy is industrial. That’s why it’s important to go to those farms or go to the wine bars that are sourcing cool biodynamic stuff. And so if we can just look at Italy with realism rather than this absolute fantasy tinting and manipulating our vision, we have a richer experience and a deeper experience with the country.

Having that richer and deeper experience is what you’ve really dedicated your life to. I appreciate it because I, for one, have benefited from that passion and love for Italy at large.

I just want to add that I will definitely take people’s money to plan their trips, but I also really want to have tons of free information. Almost everything that I write is out there. I don’t have secret spots. There isn’t a list that I send to friends that the general public doesn’t get, especially because the stereotypes about Italy are that everyone cares about ingredients and food and people are super chillaxed. Let’s be real. People who have restaurants and vineyards and are making cheese, they’re really hardworking. And I want the people who are doing things right to get as much attention and financial support as possible.

So you can buy my book. you can buy my tour but you can also go on my website katieparla.com for free and my eater 38 is updated quarterly you have access to all of this information so you can eat very delicious things drink very well and dive into the city katie

congratulations on the new book rome and for all of the tours you’re putting together if people want to get the book see where you’re going on tour book an eating trip with you or just slide into your dms for a recommendation where can they go how can they get in touch

I’m Katie Parla everywhere. Katie Parla on Instagram. DMs are open. I always respond. For events and cookbooks, katieparla.com. That’s where you’ll also find my tour offerings and city guides, which are mainly Italian, but a bit global free guides to eat and drink.

Thanks for having me.

Katie, safe travels, and I hope to see you soon.

Grazie.

Ciao.

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Technology has quietly rewritten the rules of dining out, and this episode gets into what that actually means when you sit down at the table. I’m joined by Kristen Hawley, founder of Expedite and one of the sharpest reporters covering the intersection of restaurants and tech. She shares her Five Rules for Technology in Restaurants, discussing why following a restaurant’s lead matters, how access has become the real currency of dining, and why taking an issue to the internet before addressing it in real life can cause real damage. These are practical rules for anyone who eats out and cares about how modern hospitality works right now.

It’s always a relief to get etiquette advice from someone who actually understands how restaurants operate behind the scenes. Not someone guessing, not someone shouting into the void, but an industry insider who’s spent years watching how diners, staff, and systems collide. Kristen brings clarity without being preachy and context without excuses. These are the kinds of insights that make you a better guest, help restaurants do their jobs, and remind you that a good experience is usually a shared responsibility.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Transcription

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I’m joined by my colleague, founder of Expedite and freelance journalist, Kristen Hawley, who’s here to share her five rules for technology in restaurants. She talks about the importance of following the restaurant’s lead when it comes to their policies, how by putting your phone away can ensure a better experience, and if there’s a problem with the dinner, to handle it IRL before you take it to the net. She is an absolute expert at the intersection of technology and dining out, and her insights are well informed and well founded. So let’s get into the rules.

Kristen, so good to see you again. Thanks for stopping by. Always a pleasure to chat with you. I’m so excited to talk. Thank you.

We met at one of the many restaurant technology conferences, and I couldn’t have found a better person to sit next to because you really report on the emerging worlds of tech and hospitality, which is something that’s really evolved to become ubiquitous these days. What fascinates you about that convergence?

I started covering this industry more than a decade ago. The same thing fascinates me that got me started, which is the way that the diner experience changes inside a restaurant because of technology is such a fascinating social experiment and observation. I moved from New York to San Francisco in 2009. I noticed the way that restaurants felt different in San Francisco, which I immediately attributed to technology because it was 2009. Twitter was new. DoorDash hadn’t started yet. And it was really just changing the way that people acted in restaurants and their expectations. So that’s how it started.

From the start to where it is today, you launched newsletter Expedite, which dives deeply into these topics. What have you found your readers responding to? What are the trends that you see sitting at the top of your most popular articles?

People are really interested in stories about access, which can be reservations. It can just be access to chefs. It can be learning about restaurants. The most popular stories on Expedite tend to be about some form of access to restaurants in new ways, in old ways, in every way.

It’s so funny because you talk about the old ways and the new ways, and it definitely is an evolving etiquette. How often do you see shifts? Is it gradual or is it a new app comes out or something drops and all of a sudden it’s a sea change?

I would say that it happens in steps, but it’s not driven by technology itself. It’s usually driven by social things. I think the biggest shift was COVID, right? That was the biggest shift in the restaurant industry generally in a lot of ways, but it really changed the way that diners experience and the way that they expect to experience restaurants. They suddenly, very suddenly, expected more from a restaurant on a tech platform. They expected better delivery. They expected fast delivery. They expected, again, access. They expected correct information. There are moments where I can see, in retrospect, a big step change. I don’t think tech is driving that. I think social and environmental changes are driving that. And then the technology is just bolstering how people experience restaurants.

I remember a time in restaurants where it was a pretty set rules of social etiquette, but those things have changed in the 15 to 20 years since I’ve been going out, especially as it relates to technology, which is why I’m so excited for you to chat about your five rules for technology in restaurants.

Yes.

Now, every restaurant is different from the mom and pop places to the Michelin stars. So it’s always good to understand where eating and what their approach is to tech, which is a big part of your rule number one.

Rule number one, when it comes to technology, please follow the restaurant’s lead. If they are using a screen or a kiosk or a QR code, God forbid, there is a reason.

Poor QR codes. Oh, so maligned. They obviously rose to prominence during COVID. They’ve evolved and some restaurants do use them for ordering for an open tab, for convenience, perhaps when they are short staffed or because they are short staffed. If there is technology inside of a restaurant, please assume that it is there because it needs to be and because the business has made a conscious decision to put it there. Sometimes you could feel even today that the tech is maybe invading your privacy or that you don’t want to share too much. Once you opt in to making a reservation or you get into the system, you’re in there all over the place. Being willing to give that information will actually help your dining experience, which aligns with your rule number two.

Yeah, this builds off the first one. The same goes for checking in, follow the restaurant’s leads. You’re probably going to be asked for your phone number or some other identifying information, even if you walk in. It’s because the restaurant wants to link your presence to your profile. You should probably want this. If you’re an avid diner and you’re going out and you’re actively participating in the hospitality economy, it is the modern way to track activity. I can appreciate that it feels a little creepy. It can feel weird that a restaurant’s tracking you. There have been some outraged headlines about this recently, especially with some open table product updates. Restaurants have been keeping notes on diners for as long as they’ve been around. Yeah. This is the modern way. This is how they do it at scale. Just give your phone number. Just give your phone number or email address. They’re not trying to steal or take anything away from you. They’re just trying to give you a good experience.

One could argue that the quality of your experience is how much you’re allowing to have tech be at your own table, which listen, we’re probably both guilty of this. I’m not going to sit here and say that I haven’t been super guilty of this, but try to think of a time and harken back to an era pre-computer in your pocket, which is your rule number three. Put your phone away.

I am so, so, so bad at this. I am so bad at this. Big rule for someone who works in the industry who needs to take photos of food. I’m gonna put an asterisk on this for several things. Photos, sure. Checking your email every five minutes, probably not. I am a frequent solo diner because I travel a lot for work. And I will say too, I try to not use my phone when I’m sitting at the bar. I try to catch up on some print New Yorkers or maybe a Kindle just for reasons of trying to appear slightly more social.

Yes. Everybody has a different tolerance for dining alone. But generally, if we’re going to complain about QR codes, if we’re going to complain about intrusions, keep the tech intrusions in your own pocket out of the experience.

You bring up a good point because sometimes it is for work. Sometimes you are there working at a dinner, restaurant critics, secret diners, influencers, things like that, especially when a new restaurant pops up. If you’re going to have to shoot or make a video at the table, please keep this in mind for your rule number four.

If you must film an influencer video or similar, consider your fellow diners. Book an early reservation, visit on a Tuesday, clear any additional lighting with a restaurant ahead of time. I recently got a confirmation email for a reservation. They like banned outfit changes. And I was like, what? What? That’s a thing that happens frequently enough that it’s in the FAQ that is emailed to a person who makes a reservation. Something I never considered. Influencing is a job. Reviewing is a job. Videos are a job. Photos are a job. I appreciate the hustle, but you got to consider the people that are dining around you. And in a dimly lit restaurant, when you break out the ring lights to take a photo, it is very intrusive and very distracting.

You’ve had your meal. You’ve gotten the content. You’ve tried to read a book with your phone in your pocket. Let’s just be honest. Maybe it was a good meal. Maybe it was a bad meal. Maybe your job is to review meals. And we’ve seen this of recent where diners have taken to the internet to spread their grievances. We’ve all seen that this can really hurt a restaurant. Putting something out there in the digital space can leave a nasty footprint. And your fifth and final rule suggests dealing with this in real life before you take it to the web. What’s your rule number five?

Talk to the manager before you review online if it is bad. If something wasn’t right, say it to a person. I promise they want to know. They probably want to make it right. It is really, really, really easy not to talk to anyone about a bad experience, but still get a ton of mileage about it on the internet. And I’m not saying don’t leave a bad review. There is a need for honesty. What I’m saying is if you don’t give the restaurant a chance to address it in the moment, it’s almost unfair to malign that experience online. The restaurant probably doesn’t know that you’re upset or disappointed. Just tell a human.

Now listen, if you’ve talked to a server, talked to a manager in the moment and found no purchase, by all means, say what you need to say online. I am an advocate of truth and honesty. I’m a journalist. But I do understand how a bad online reputation can really tank a business. So just give them a chance. Give them a chance. You never know. One bad night of service doesn’t mean it’s a bad restaurant.

This just happened to me at a place that I go to with my kids for pasta around the corner. I got this gnocchi dish. It had so much lemon in it. It was like savory lemonade. It was disgusting. I said something to the server and the server was like, oh, thank you so much. I’ve been trying to tell the kitchen this for three days. They just changed the recipe. I’ll be right back. It worked out. It’s not just me.

Kristen, thank you so much for sharing these rules. If people want to sign up for Expedite or read what you’re writing, where can they go? How can they follow along with what you’re up to and what you’re working on?

The best way is at expedite.news, which is the website for my two to three times weekly newsletter or kristenholly.com for all my freelance work.

Amazing. Well, congratulations on everything. Deeply appreciate you sharing these tips. And I will try to be better about putting my phone away at the table when I go out to eat because you told me to.

Yeah, me too. It’s a process. We’ll get there.

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In this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, chef and cookbook author Joshua McFadden breaks down his Five Rules for Building a Pasta Dish in the Skillet. Drawing from his new book, Six Seasons of Pasta, Joshua shares game-changing insights that demystify the process and empower home cooks to make incredible pasta right in the pan. It’s about intuition, flavor, and letting the pasta do what it does best: bring comfort, joy, and a little magic to the table.

Few things in life hit like a bowl of perfectly cooked pasta. It’s comfort food with soul, a dish that can be humble or heroic depending on what you bring to it. Learning how to master it, how to build flavor, balance, and confidence in a single skillet, is a real key to living the good life. Joshua’s rules take away the guesswork and give you a blueprint for something deeply satisfying. It’s not just about eating better, it’s about cooking smarter and feeling more connected to what ends up on your plate.

Last week marked the first anniversary of the LA Fires. To honor the moment, I sat down with my good friend Travis Hayden for a profile in Fine Dining Lovers by Pellegrino. The piece is about his first year at the incredible Bar Etoile—equal parts celebration and reflection, especially as it coincides with him losing his home in the Palisades Fire. It’s a story about rebuilding, cooking through the chaos, and finding beauty in both the fire and the aftermath.

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I’m joined by author and chef Joshua McFadden, whose new book, Six Seasons of Pasta, is out on Artisan and available everywhere. He shares his five rules for building a pasta dish in the skillet, a method of cooking pasta that he has perfected.

For anyone who’s ever wanted to learn how to salt your water, build the different layers of a dish, and how to finish with a seasonal flair, this is the episode for you. If you’re already an expert at cooking pasta and want to refine your skills, or you’re looking for a new advanced method, this is a conversation for you to enjoy.

Let’s get into the rules.

Joshua, so good to see you.I think it’s been a decade since the last time we ran into each other in Austin at your book event on South Congress. Thank you for making the time to sit down right now. It’s the busy season. Your book’s out. So good to see you.

Good to see you too. Thanks for having me.

I love the book. I think it’s really beautiful. One of the opening musings you have in the intro comparing the practice of cooking pasta to the art of writing poetry—and haiku specifically—are tied together. Why do you see these two disciplines as parallels?

There’s the simplicity of it that really is fascinating to me. And when you really nail a perfect Pomodoro or a perfect pasta from its texture to all the things, it’s just so much more than the sum of its parts. It’s just a really special little moment in life. There’s very few things that give more joy than pasta. And arguably, push come to shove, it’s the most popular thing in the world. Even more than pizza. Start a war.

One of the things I love about the book—and you’ve really built your career around—is the idea of seasonality. You’re known for your Six Seasons. Something that isn’t always tied to pasta is that it is a seasonal dish. Why do you think it is so important to think about pasta in this way?

I think I just think about everything in that way, seasonality-wise. I just think it’s so fun to dive so deep into the moments that we’re in within a calendar year. I had my last strawberry several, several months ago, and I’ll have another one coming up here in early spring. Those moments are just anchoring for me.

I agree. I’ve kind of always just shuffled around that dance with the seasons. I completely redid Thanksgiving this year based on turkey ragu and turkey meatballs. Again, really seasonally. This is the food. This is the flavor. This is the smell. This is the nostalgic idea of it all. And it just really kind of hit home. I’m a geek for it, for sure.

I love that idea of just knowing that when I see spring peas or fresh herbs, it’s a memory. It’s a time of season. Just knowing that I have to wait for something for it to be properly good again, it just adds to the quality and the desire of the dish when the season comes around.

Oh, so much. There’s just something about it. The smell, days are getting longer, lights changing. All those things factor into it. It really is, I think, a really special thing. Understanding that, it changes your life a little bit, I’d like to think.

Knowing that you’ve put so much thought into what goes into cooking the pasta and when to cook it taps into—I’ll call it your rule zero—which is that cooking pasta is not easy.

Mm-hmm.

Which is tricky because it’s also one of the first dishes that most people learn how to cook.

Exactly. I was making mac and cheese for myself—sure, out of the box—but that was in high school.

Why is it such a hard dish to refine?

You know, I remember having this conversation with the chef that I worked with a long time ago. I remember him saying, cooking a piece of fish or a piece of meat is really easy because you know the exact foundational rules of what you’re doing. There’s cues and there’s things and you can do it and blah, blah, blah. And I think when you’re in it with pasta, things can change. When it’s in the water, it might say 10 minutes on a box and it could be 14 or it could be six. Paying attention to those things and having all the right things set up.

I would argue that I don’t think every single time you make it, it’s perfect. Even just the other day, something was a little bit too toothsome and overly al dente, but it was still great. I could have just given it 30 more seconds in the pan. So there’s always those moments. And I think that that’s why when I say it’s hard, that’s what I’m saying. You really should be paying attention because by the time you’re putting it in a bowl and getting ready to eat it, it’s go time. Up until then, there’s all these different things that can be happening. Too much sauce, not enough sauce, too much butter, cheese at the wrong moment—just a bunch of different things that can all go wrong.

Knowing all the things that can go wrong and how to make them go right is something that anyone who cooks pasta always wants to know. And you have your own method, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for building a pasta dish in the skillet.

Some of these rules are things that people think they innately know or they know how to do correctly. And it’s not saying they don’t know how to do it correctly, but to your point, it’s about refining it more and more every time.

Rule Number OneGetting the water right.

You have to have an alarming amount of salt for everyone that doesn’t understand it. But then you’re also understanding that it’s just seasoning the noodles that are in the water. It’s not about putting a bunch of salt in your body. It’s really just seasoning all that. You need a lot in the amount of water because you need a lot of water to be able to, when you put the pasta in, not lose its boil. And those things are very, very important.

In the book, we give a ratio for it. Following that and understanding that and weighing that out and getting good at that—knowing that this is the pan I use and this is how much water is in this thing and then weighing out the salt, putting it in—I think is a really, really important thing because then you can check that off as that thing you’re not guessing.

I think it’s really important to understand how the building blocks of “I learned from this and then I did this and then it didn’t work.” You follow all the things through. Which one did you not do? Maybe you didn’t add any salt because that can happen and it doesn’t taste like anything. It is definitely the most important thing.

A lot of times I absolutely ignore the water-to-pasta ratio. I just throw as much water as I can into a pot where I think it’s going to be enough to cover. Same with the salt. And I go, let’s dump half a box of pasta in without thinking about the right amount. But you have dialed in a specific weight to the ratio of a perfect serving.

Rule Number TwoPerfect portions for two.

We did the whole book based on recipes for two people. Going back to the idea that I don’t think pasta is easy, that was the perfect way to start getting people to understand how to do it. Also, how to mess up, because they think that, oh, I got this. And then invite people over for dinner and all of a sudden they’re making pasta and it’s like, wow, it doesn’t taste like that.

We would have gone the wrong way if we did it for four people, which is kind of typical. You have all this stuff for pasta, you don’t really need it. You can kind of double things up in a really beautiful way with pasta. So we really anchored it around two people and typically four ounces per person of pasta. That changes a lot with the shape of a noodle—rigatoni might look like the biggest bowl—and it’s still just a good generic rule, if you will, to follow, to really start understanding what’s right and what’s wrong, what tastes good, al dente, all those things that will actually teach you how to make pasta.

Rule Number ThreeChoose the right pans.

Obviously having a big pan for the water is super important so it doesn’t lose its boil. And then having a nice size 10- to 12-inch pan to be able to have the pasta and the sauce and being able to build it so you can all come together is really important.

It’s one of those things that is, I would like to think, a very different mindset for when people are reading this book. They’re like, “Oh, it’s all going into the sauce for two minutes or 30 seconds.” And that is, I think, a radical transformation from the way people think about it. So having the right size pan certainly helps to be able to do the thing justice.

Rule Number FourDon’t let your oil smoke.

You’re really trying to do things slowly and over a period of time to really build flavor. That smoke flavor, especially when you start throwing something in there, is going to just scorch the outside of garlic or it’s going to ruin the chilies or things will be spitting all over the place. So it really is about being with it and building that slow caramelization of the things that you’re trying to either toast or caramelize.

Rule Number FiveFinish like a pro.

You’re going to learn when you’re looking at how much liquid—or a.k.a. sauce, ragu—is in the pan, right? You’ve already put in the pot of water. You’re bringing it down. You’ve tasted it. You know it’s at that moment. I almost like to take it off the heat and then start adjusting with the cheese, adding a really nice oil. If you’re going to use acid, now’s the time to use that because literally if you cook a lemon, it’s going to taste really sweet, like lemonade, if you will. It balances itself out because it’s like cooking the sugar.

Herbs at the same time. I’ve already put them in the beginning, so I love to put them at the end as well—big handfuls of herbs. And that’s kind of the order that you really want to always follow. That same idea. Because the cheese is emulsifying, it’s doing a big thing, it’s taking on a lot, and then you’re just building from there. Foundationally, if you will, it’s just the right order to think about things.

Josh, the book is beautiful. The “build in the skillet” method works—as someone who has practiced it. And all you need to do is make about 10,000 of these pasta dishes and you’ll eventually maybe get to the level that you’re at.

If people want to pick up the book or see where you’re going on tour or just follow along with what you’re cooking, where can they go?

I guess the good old Instagram is always great. I have a website as well that will show some events that are coming up.

Amazing. I’m looking forward to cooking some of your winter dishes. Mushrooms are in season and what goes better than mushrooms and pasta during a cold, chilly night here in California.

Hope to see you soon. Congrats on the book and thanks for making the time.

Thanks for having me. I appreciate you.

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On this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with David Gelb, the creator of Chef’s Table and director of Jiro Dreams of Sushi, who shares his Five Rules for Creating a Body of Work You Love. We discuss how his early dreams of making sci-fi blockbusters shaped his unique documentary style, how technology shifts helped his early food storytelling, and why his five rules—such as making what you want to watch and surrounding yourself with collaborators you actually like—are essential for any creative looking to go the distance.

It’s always a pleasure catching up with David. He’s someone I’ve known for years and whose work has helped shape how people talk about food on screen. Hearing his insights on how to sustain a long creative career—while staying true to one’s taste and values—is a reminder that the inside track is rarely a straight line. This episode is a great listen for anyone who wants to understand how things get made, what it takes to keep going, and how to build a life around telling the stories that matter to you.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

I’m always excited to sit down with today’s guest, David Gelb, creator of Chef’s Table, who’s here today to share his five rules for creating a body of work you love.

He talks about the importance of making a thing you want to watch to be the base of anything you create, a tactful way to ask for and receive feedback, and that to ensure for a long career, always work with people you like.

It’s a great conversation for anyone who’s starting to think about the projects they want to make, create, or get going this year.

So let’s get into the rules.

David, so good to see you. Congrats on the Chef Table podcast. Always great to see you putting out new work into the world. And thanks for making time for the show.

Of course, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Last time I saw you was at the Chef Conference in LA. We were actually chatting about the projects that— which I’ve seen from so many people these days, whether it’s a newsletter, social series, something like that. What do you think is driving this creative push for people to do their own thing?

Well, I think that a lot of it is a technology thing. It’s sort of like when YouTube first started or whenever something becomes accessible, people are excited to do it. I think that’s great. It’s easy to get a microphone, a headphone. You don’t need to get into this specific studio space or can record nice footage on an iPhone now versus needing to get a big camera per se, or even being able to edit on a computer at home, which was something that was not attainable right before my generation of filmmaking. So I think the technology makes it possible and people have a lot to say. There’s an audience of people that are not watching TV and they’re on the internet.

I know that advancements in technology and cameras has come so far since you started studying film in college. Did you ever think that these changes would allow you to make your first documentary?

I suffered, or in some ways benefited, but mostly suffered from what I like to refer to as film school delusion, which is where you think that you are going to exit film school and then immediately go do a blockbuster, big budget movie, like a Star Wars reboot or Indiana Jones or something like that.

Yeah, of course.

I think it is specifically afflicts those who graduate from USC film school. The NYU kids think they’re going to make the next Goodfellas. I really had no intention of doing documentary. It only popped up when I saw the movie Fog of War, which I absolutely loved. I wanted to make The Matrix. I wanted to do like big action movies, really cool cinematography and all that kind of stuff. But then I could apply that to my doc work and I kind of fell into this niche and I realized I really liked it.

So the opportunity to make Jiro Dreams of Sushi, this was a moment in technology because a new camera called the Red One had just come out that would allow me almost entirely on my own to be able to make it look like planet Earth, to be able to shoot with the shallow focus and have the slow motion without needing a film loader, without needing all that extra stuff. Even when I was making Jiro Dreams of Sushi, I didn’t think that I would still be doing Chef’s Table all these years later. It’s funny how it works out. And sometimes that’s the journey of life is you don’t get exactly what you came in looking for. You get what you actually needed in accepting who you are and the work that you actually do make.

I think having that approach and that understanding of a long, creative, professional life, it comes to you later, not earlier, not when you’re a film student, but much later in life and allows you to just stay open to new ideas and new projects. How do you keep coming up with fresh ideas, how do you keep challenging yourself for the next project, for the next idea, for the next iteration of what you’re making?

It comes from questions. What are the questions that I want answered that I’m curious about? And then how do I want to see it? What do I want it to look like? I have a project right now. It came in one form. And then I was like, oh, this world is actually quite interesting. And then I’ve kind of figured out the version of it that I want to watch. Being able to understand the work that you want to do and the work that resonates with people, having that meet in the center of a Venn diagram, it’s much more unique than I thought it would be when I was getting started as well, which is why I’m so excited for you to be talking about your five rules for creating a body of work you love.

Even though you’ve moved on from the idealistic days of early college you, there is still that core of being creative about following your passion, telling the stories you want to tell, which ties directly into your rule number one.

The first rule is make what you want to watch. That’s why I wanted to make The Matrix. I wanted to make the original Star Wars trilogy or make those things, but those things have already been made. My best work comes from, I’m making exactly the thing that I’m interested in that I want to be making. And I have the freedom and latitude to be able to do that. The good work comes from making it for yourself. And if I’m so lucky that the thing that I want to watch is what other people might want to watch or that somebody wants to pay for, I’m incredibly grateful for that. And that’s why I’m able to continue working. That’s the main first rule is follow your own taste.

Following your own taste is a great way to get projects going and the extra passion that you put into it. But sometimes I have found that when I get fixated on one project, I’m not doing enough of what your second rule encourages.

Number two, I mean, just do a lot of work.

Yes.

And it’s on to the next one because... Jiro Dreams of Sushi was not my first project or attempted a project, but I see people falling into a trap sometimes. And then I hear people, it’s like, oh, I’ve been working on this documentary for 15 years. I think that that is something that can be folly, where you bet everything only on this one thing. And the process of being a creator is you have to make things and then see how they go. And there’s a certain trial and error of creation that requires doing a lot of work.

Ira Glass said it best, doing a huge volume of work because your taste is here, your skill level is only where you started. And so you’re trying to reach this level of taste. People give up because they can’t immediately hit their level of taste or they won’t finish the first project until they feel like it’s that good. But it only gets that good just through the process of making something, seeing, making something and seeing, making something and seeing. And so that’s the whole thing. A lot of work.

Having a lot of bites of the apple really pays off in the end. And sometimes the projects that you thought were nothing or a toss away wind up becoming the big thing, the big opportunity. Sometimes that comes from getting feedback from other people who see something or say you could adjust this little thing and it opens up this whole new creative pathway, which ties directly into your rule number three.

Listen to notes for the symptoms of the problem, but don’t overcorrect. Don’t lead the witness when you’re getting feedback. The audience is the patient and you’re the doctor.

Yes.

The audience is always going to ask for another Vicodin. They want the heavy pills. You cannot let the patient prescribe their own medication. We don’t do it. A lot of people you’ll show things to, this never happens anywhere more than it happens in film school, is everybody thinks that they have such important opinions and they want to solve the problem. What you’re looking for is what did it mean to you? Or did you ever feel confused or lost? But don’t let your audience prescribe the solution for you because you have to do it through your own filter.

Sometimes it’s not just the audience giving you feedback. Sometimes it’s colleagues or the network or the studio.

Oh, absolutely.

And I know that as I’ve gotten older, I’ve been able to take feedback and notes better. In fact, on the last thing that I was working on, my buddy said, it’s not a full teardown, but it needs a lot of work. And he opened up the whole thing for me. That only really comes from when you trust the people in your orbit and you can really be on the same page as them, which is a big part of your rule number four.

Something that really matters is your team and working with people that you like, that you’ve built a bit of trust with. Also an understanding that we’re all making the same thing.

Yes.

I’ve been in this situation where a director sees an opportunity with the producer. Then the director’s like, I’ll just kind of sneak in what I want to do and do what they want. That never works. It’s really about making sure that we’re all unified. We’re on the same page about what is the thing that we’re trying to make and we’re doing it together.

You’re working with people that are happy in their crew positions. You don’t want to be working with a cinematographer that wishes that they were the director. Everybody just needs to have a sense of place and a solid foundation of we’re all here. We know what our roles are and we’re all making the same thing.

Yes. And if I could add one thing, the sooner in the process that you have that conversation on get on the same page, the less pain points they’re going to be down the road.

You don’t want to be having these conversations in post-production.

Oh, of course not.

And one of the big overarching things, and this kind of covers everything, is don’t be a people pleaser.

Yes.

You have to be diplomatic. You’re choosing your battles. You can’t be making core decisions on people. Crew members, edit, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, because you’re trying to make other people happy. It has to come from your own taste and the thing you’re trying to make. So if everybody’s aligned at the top of it, then you’re going to be in good shape. Somebody says something that is not at all what the project is. And then you’re like, oh yeah, well, it could be kind of like that. That’s not a great way to do it. And I’ve made all these mistakes in the past. Everything here is stuff that anyone who’s worked in this field has learned the hard way. And if you’re lucky enough to make something that you want to watch and that there’s an audience for, you’re two thirds of the way there.

And your fifth and final rule touches on the last thing that everyone who’s creative would love to make, but isn’t always guaranteed. What’s your rule number five?

If you want to be a creator and the objective is money, that this is not the best field for you necessarily.

No.

The goal... cannot be making money. Now, if you’re lucky, or it’s like the Venn diagram of thing you are interested in thing that audience wants to see, if those things connect, you might be in a position where you can make money, but that can’t be the thing from the outset. And you can’t be planning a project based on this subject hasn’t been documented and it’s popular unless you also have that interest. There has to be reason beyond cash in this thing. You really want to make money and that’s your goal and your goal is to calculate your box office and whatnot. Then, you know, there are other professions that I think are going to be more satisfying.

James Cameron has the biggest box office. I’m sure he loves having his big box office, but I don’t think that he was in it from the beginning because of box office. I think he genuinely cares about the people of Pandora. Going back to that thing, doing a lot of work, James Cameron wanted to make Avatar in the 90s. And he just couldn’t get the effects and the budget and all the things. If he got stuck on that and he was like, I’m not making another movie until I make Avatar, that would suck. But he took a break on that and then went and took a different path and then came back to it with a whole new level of knowledge and skill. Whether you love Avatar or not, you can’t deny it. It’s a big, cool project that a lot of people did a lot of really cool work on.

David, so great to see you. Congrats on everything. If people want to listen to the podcast or watch the show, follow along. We’ll see what you’re working on next. Where can they go?

Chef’s Table continues on Netflix. Just look up Chef’s Table on Netflix and you’ll see that we have our core show. We have noodles. We have pasta. We have pizza. We got barbecue. We got France.

Yes.

Which not enough people have enjoyed Chef’s Table France, which was an absolute joy to shoot. Chef’s Table Talks can be found on all podcasts and check out the official Chef’s Table Instagram handle for the clips and you can see who’s on each week and the journey continues.

The journey continues.

Thank you so much, Darin.

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This week on Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with chef, content creator, and author Jonathan Kung, a third culture trailblazer whose videos and cookbook, Kung Food, have brought millions into his creative kitchen. He shares his Five Rules For Harnessing Your Creativity, and we talk about where ideas really come from, why limitations help unlock creativity, and how sometimes the best dishes (and videos) are born when you’re cooking in the woods with two coolers and no plan. Jonathan’s five rules dig into the art of improvisation, the power of talking tools with your peers, and the deeper reason why we all create in the first place. Whether you’re a chef, artist, editor, or just someone trying to make cool stuff, this episode is a generous, honest guide to how it all gets done.

This conversation really hits home if you’re someone staring down the new year and thinking about how to keep making, building, and growing. Jonathan’s approach to creativity feels both grounded and expansive. He breaks down the pressure of the “feed,” the myth of chasing trend cycles, and reminds us that creativity isn’t about following, it’s about refining your voice, your ideas, and your pace. This episode is packed with the kind of real talk that helps you set intention without burning out. Whether you’re deep in a project or just trying to find your next concept, these five rules give you a compass for staying inspired and making work that actually matters to you.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I sit down with chef, content creator, and author Jonathan Kung, whose videos and cookbook Kung Food: Chinese American Recipes from a Third Culture Kitchen are enjoyed by millions of people all over the world. He shares his five rules for harnessing your creativity and talks about the importance of finding inspiration in limitation, learning how to improvise to create something new, and how the key to all great success is good communication. It’s a fantastic conversation for anyone who’s looking to head into the new year with good intention about what they want to make and create. So let’s get into the rules.

Jonathan, so great to meet you. Longtime fan of your content online and the food that you cook. Really appreciate you taking the time to sit down.

Thank you so much for having me. Pleasure to be here.

Being a content creator comes with the pressure of having to create something daily. How do you harness that consistency?

My background, actually, in school, I studied theater and creative writing as a dual major in college. Somehow that has managed to make itself really useful in my career shift as a content creator. Basically, what I’ve done is use the things that I have learned over the course of my schooling and over the course of my life as a cook to inform the things that I do as a content creator. And I pretty much just derive inspiration from all sorts of sources.

I’ve noticed that among my peers, one of the topics of discussion constantly when it comes to conventions for content creators and gatherings is: where do you get your ideas from? How do you ideate? When I was just starting out, I was like, oh, I have lots of ideas. Eventually, I will run out and I will need to listen to these people talk about where they get their ideas from. I’m over half a decade in and still I haven’t done a fraction of all of the things I wrote down. I’ve forgotten more ideas for videos to do than I’ve actually executed over five years.

Yeah, you think you’re coming up with something new, then you check an old notebook and you’re like, oh wait, never mind. I had that.

Do you see a difference between developing a tasting menu or making a video, or are you pulling from that same creative well for all the projects that you do?

My sources of inspiration tend to be from the same place in the sense that I look to specific places for inspiration. What I try to avoid is looking to see what my neighbor is doing. Of course, when I was a chef, the last place I would look is other restaurants and other tasting menu concepts that were similar to mine to see what they were doing. Same as a content creator—the last thing that I’m really interested in following is a trend, which goes against what a lot of social media managers will tell you.

In the context of social media, trends can give you short-term virality, but they really say nothing about you as an artist or creator or even as a person. When it comes to content, I love going to other mediums of art that are not necessarily connected to my own. When it was food, I loved going to the museum and looking at paintings. Watching films inspired me to do complete tasting menu concepts based off the films of Hayao Miyazaki. Though that is a concept that seems to have been done quite a bit now, I was doing that in 2008. There was really nothing like it, at least where I was. And people were coming in. I had this secret kitchen in Detroit that was completely unsanctioned and totally illegal. But I still had people coming in from Chicago and Toronto to try these things because they saw a Facebook event.

What a time. The mid-aughts, man. What a time to be cooking. It was such a time of great millennial naivete. I absolutely loved it. I look back so fondly on that.

Back to the thing about trends. Understand that trends are a tool for growth, but they are not a signature of your own expression. I think when you start basing a large collective of your creativity around trends, it might work on social media because it’s fleeting and it moves on. But when it comes time to something more permanent, like your first cookbook Kung Food, doing something on trends is a surefire way to only be on a few shelves.

What was the process in discovering what you wanted to say with this book—picking the stories that you want to have be more permanent in people’s collections?

One thing that short form media has done is really quickened the pace on how the general zeitgeist of any given topic works. It just accelerates the saturation so quickly. So when I was just starting off writing my book, I do believe it’s probably one of the first cookbooks with third culture cooking even in the title, and it was still a new concept back then. The inspiration for the book, I should say, is simply an expression of my own identity in food. There is an authenticity of self, and that was what I wanted to write in my cookbook. It’s not traditional Chinese food in any kind of way, but it is the Chinese food that is representative of who I am as a Chinese person and my experiences as a Chinese American.

Having those experiences and being able to tap into that across your body of work—whether it’s a video or tasting menu or a cookbook—is great to see, which makes me so excited for you to share your five rules for harnessing your creativity.

It’s easy to get lost in what other people are doing, especially when you’re doom scrolling or looking at other people’s Instagram feeds. And your first rule talks about focusing on yourself and ignoring that. What’s your rule number one?

Rule 1: Ignore your peers and look to other artists. Branching out and finding inspiration, not in the people that do the same thing you do, but from the wider world around you. Understanding that everything can be a source of inspiration if you just think a little laterally. Think outside the confines of your own niche or industry. With that basic tenet of where to find inspiration, it really just becomes limitless.

That being said, on the other side of the same coin, there is something great about creating a box and creating structure. Because today, there is the detriment of having unlimited options or choices or things at your fingertips that you become paralyzed.

Rule 2: Find inspiration in limitation. After saying that the world is boundless and unlimited, I go right to the opposite end and just tell you that being limited can actually give you such a sense of urgency and just really allows you to focus down.

One thing I like to do as a chef is go camping a lot. And I can’t take my kitchen with me. I can’t even take all the ingredients that I want with me. I’m extremely limited to what I can bring. I bring two coolers for fresh food. I have one box of unperishables—sugar, salt, spices, canned goods, camping staples, oats, some grains, what and whatnot, maybe some fried pasta. What I found was I was coming up with recipes that I would never have come up with in the kitchen. And what’s more, they are recipes that I find the average everyday cook is able to do. Because if I can do it in the woods with no running water, electricity, and just some logs and flame, it’s in general easy enough for somebody with a normal kitchen to execute.

So not only has it improved my ability to cook as a recipe developer, but it’s also improved my ability to cook as a former professional cook to now a teacher for people who are hobbyists and home cooks.

Rule 3: Learn how to improvise. Improvisation is, just like cooking, a skill on its own—the ability to not lock up under pressure. I realized that inspiration can come directly from the moment. I was cooking for another chef. They were catering a wedding. They had everything planned out. They knew who every guest was. But lo and behold, there was a surprise vegan. And I don’t hit on vegans. I was a vegan for two months and a vegetarian for two years.

In that moment when you have everything planned out and there wasn’t even really a kitchen there—we were doing banquet style cooking—everything was prepared. So I literally was taking sides here and there and concocting a sauce and came up with a really great dish that the person really liked. And of course, because that person liked it, the host really enjoyed it. In that time, I was just like, okay, plan as much as you can, but also save some room for improvisation because the spark of the moment can be just one of the biggest flashes in a creative career.

Rule 4: Talk to your peers about tools. I’m interested in what my peers and friends are doing, but I’m more interested in how they’re doing it because everyone’s creative process can be so wildly different. There are people who use amazing cameras and video equipment and really expensive software. I used to be that person. And now I just use iPhones. I use them to film at different angles. That allows me to be a one-person team. That allows me to not have to communicate my needs to anyone because I’m the only person there.

I do love learning about how other people create because it gives me the ability to consider different avenues I would not have originally considered. There have been times where somebody has talked to me about a tool—something as specific as a microphone. Instead of using a shotgun microphone, which is super directional, I learned to use two lavaliers. You can hide them off camera and get a more immersive sound. That became how I do things now, and it informed every other video I’ve filmed since. Talk to your friends and peers about how they do what they do. It’s a great conversation to have. And it has compounding effects on the things that you make.

Rule 5: At the end of the day, it’s all just communication. What all of us are ultimately doing is just trying to say or express something. Having that constantly in mind can really inform every narrative that you make. For me, every single summer— is it just a tomato? No, it’s never just a tomato. It’s a love letter to the season.

Even in how you say it—the different ways you say it—there’s meaning. I used to be just a point-and-shoot person until I got into video editing. And I found there’s a complete second layer of communication within the edit itself. The way you cut video communicates humor in a way that I could never do just in front of the camera. Remembering that you’re always just trying to say something will inform your work all the way through.

John, thank you so much for sharing all of your tips and a perspective of someone who’s been in the game about how to say what you want to say and make the work you want to make. If people want to watch the videos, order the cookbook, or hit you up to plan a tasting menu for them—where can they go?

You can find me on my socials. I’m just @jonkung across all platforms—YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. My cookbook is called Kung Food. It’s out in all bookstores now.

Congrats on everything. Really excited to see what videos come up next and to keep following your work as you put it out into the world.

Thank you so much.

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This week on Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with bartender, beverage consultant, and all-around cocktail whisperer Linda Douglas to talk about her Five Rules on Building an at Home Bar. She shares the importance of intention when choosing base spirits, to learning how to batch drinks like a pro, all while demystifying the world of mixology with warmth, clarity, and a healthy pour of real-world experience. Whether you’re starting from scratch or ready to level up, this episode gives you the tools to build a home bar that works for you and your guests.

I love this episode because it removes the mystery of putting together an at home bar. You don’t need a rolling cart or fancy bottles or an encyclopedic knowledge of spirits—just a little curiosity and a few smart tips. Linda’s advice lets you build confidence as you learn what you like, what to serve, and how to host without stress. Best of all, it helps you find your signature cocktail—the one you make without thinking, the one that makes people smile when they walk in the door. That’s the power of hospitality, and that’s what makes this episode so special.

Hello, and happy holidays.

Welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I sit down with LA bartender extraordinaire, Linda Douglas, who can be seen crafting cocktails at Donna’s and serving up her own creations at her excellent events across the city and the world. Today, she shares her five rules on building an at-home bar. She talks about the importance of personalizing what you put together, that intentional curation will help with cost when it comes to buying liquor, and how picking your bartender’s brain is the best way to build the best collection at home.

It’s a fantastic conversation for anyone who’s ever wanted to have their own little speakeasy in their house, serving up crafted cocktails for loved ones at home. She also shares her recipe for a freezer door martini, which can be seen in the episode description below.

So let’s get into the rules.

Linda, such a pleasure to see you. Thank you for making time during the busy holiday season.

Great to see you. Thanks for having me. I’m excited for this.

When I was reading up on you and your inspirations, one of the inspirations of yours that I love was nostalgia. What do you love about looking backwards to create something new?

Besides always trying to figure out what trends are going on, mainly because of my brain rot on TikTok. Knowing that flavor trends bring things back to base of home and nostalgia comes back to a sense of making people feel good, whether they’re drinking a beverage or spending time at your restaurant. And nostalgia is different for everybody. And it hits at the same place, though. It’s a constant journey to find everybody’s little bit of nostalgia that we can all come together with.

When we dined at Donna’s, the idea of nostalgia and a different era of a restaurant that has been updated definitely came into play. I found that as much with the food as with the cocktails that you made for us. What old ideas have you brought into the new world with the cocktails that you helped make at the restaurant?

When we build on how we want our guests to feel, we think about making people feel that they’re coming back to a place, whether it’s their first time there or their 30th time.

I love that. Really making things welcoming and not intimidating.

And that’s a really big part of my process with cocktails and storytelling. People should be excited to ask for their very first martini, not be intimidated by asking what a certain ingredient is. The thought of sharing a bit of why we’re excited as bartenders and hospitality professionals to be a part of everybody’s special moment or just their regular Monday night. Having pride in our work goes and overflows into our guests having a great time.

I love that. I love the idea of hosting and having a great time. I’ve always associated with chefs or professional bartenders that their home is an extension of their restaurant. But I’ve also been to some chefs’ houses and there’s nothing to eat but some frozen pizza and maybe a bag of almonds. Are bartenders the same way? Do they have a built-out bar at their house? Or is it, as I have also seen, Miller High Life’s and a bottle of Jameson?

Oh, goodness. You’re really hitting it on the head. I just felt seen.

A little bit of both. Yes. A common question that I even ask other industry professionals, are you making drinks at home? And a lot of times we’re saying very low stakes cocktails. Highballs. Perfect.

We have a lot of things batched probably from different events that we just had or we’re tasting things or R&Ding for something.

What a dream.

My freezer has six cocktails in it right now. Four of them, I love. Two of them I’m trying to work through.

You end up building an at-home bar of all the things that you really enjoy, and it might be a bunch of small nips of things that you’ve shared with other bartenders along the way. There is this little circle of us. We each send over three ounces of our favorite spirit to one another.

Ugh.

So my home bar is little bits and pieces of mini bottles that we’ve shared with each other, which is kind of special.

Not everyone is friends with some of the best bartenders in the city and in the country, which is why I’m so excited for you to be here to share your five rules on building an at-home bar for people who aren’t living that life professionally.

I thought a lot about this and at times have felt intimidated when I’ve gone over to whiskey collectors’ houses. Is this how my bar is supposed to feel at home? Your first rule talks about making the right type of setup for who you are. What’s your rule number one?

Rule number one is to personalize it. Build a bar that excites you. Your home bar has to be exciting for you to play around in. A lot of people will think about making a home bar very expensive, but my favorite thing is to go to estate sales, thrift stores, garage sales, and finding fun personalized glassware that really speak to me and I’m excited to use and play around with. And we’re not spending as much money thinking that hey, I’m thinking about having to buy very professional tools. I’m not working well for making 300 cocktails at a nightclub or something. This should be fun and exciting for you to engage with.

I also think that there’s a set lineup of glassware that you should look for when you’re going to these estate sales. And the lineup should be a martini coupe, a rocks glass, and a highball glass. Three of those and you can make a bunch of cracked cocktails.

The idea of having to start from scratch or having to buy a whole new setup can be really tough, especially if money’s tight or you don’t want to make that huge investment. And the other thing that people can get hung up on are the tools and the equipment needed, which is a core tenant of your rule number two.

My rule number two is keep tools simple, essential, and high quality. You don’t need every single gadget that’s going to come in one of these kits that you’ll probably find around the holidays right now. My go-to list: a Boston shaker, a bar spoon, Hawthorne strainer, a jigger, a hand juicer, and a mixing glass. That’s it. It doesn’t have to be super fancy. It just has to not annoy you from using it.

There are times when you go to make a drink or even when you go to cook and you don’t have the tool that you need to actually make the thing that you want. That’s a real pain. And so being really thoughtful and intentional about what you have in your house, either equipment or ingredient-wise, is a big part of building out your bar and a big part of your rule number three.

Rule number three is stock smart. Buy what you know and how to use it. I don’t want people to feel pressured to buy—great, I’m going to have a party for New Year’s or Valentine’s Day, I need to buy 42 bottles. Slowly build your repertoire of what you want to hold on to and what you want to carry on your home. An easy way for me to plan this out is you want to have two bottles of the same spirit: one that’s on a basic level, something that you can shake and drink in a mixed cocktail. And the second one should be something that is more luxurious, that you want to cherish, that you want to sip neat after dinner or on a date. Something that shines by itself.

Supporting ingredients like digestives and modifiers should earn their place on your bar. You want to make sure that you’re using ingredients that you’re comfortable and confident with but also you can use it in various different ways. If I am going to buy coffee liqueur for an espresso martini, I could also use it in a coffee negroni or coffee old-fashioned.

Yes please.

If I’m gonna buy a really lovely amaro, great—I can have it on the rocks after dinner or before dinner, I can make it into an amaro spritz and I could put it into a black manhattan. Using these bottles in versatile ways is going to get more bang for your buck and you’re going to make more exciting, creative cocktails at home.

Budget plays a big part of this, especially as we hit the holiday season and hosting and entertaining are at an all-time high. Your fourth rule speaks to this. What is your rule number four?

Rule number four is to batch and prep in advance. It’s helpful to use this tip especially if you’re planning on hosting. Being able to think about making a cocktail that’s just in a bottle that you pour over ice, you put a lemon peel in it, and it’s ready to go, is the most helpful thing that you’re going to have. One of my go-tos is a freezer door martini. You basically just take your recipe that you like for your martini, pour it into a bottle, and you’re not going to add any water to it. You’re going to put that bottle into the freezer. You’re going to wait at least 24 hours. And now you’ve got a beautifully crystal-clear, delicious martini that’s just ready to pour for your guest, and it looks so classy when you just hand it to them without even having to go to your bar.

I love this idea because it reduces the anxiety of prep, especially when you’re trying to entertain, you want to be hosting, and you’re working the playlist, and you’re also trying to get the food out. Having these premade drinks allows people to start the night off with something a little special before they transition into something else. Which brings us to your final rule, which is something that really brings the home bar together. What’s your rule number five?

Rule number five is to pick your bartender’s brain. Bartenders are excited to share about our favorite spirits, things that we’re excited about. We spend a lot of time and investment trying different liquors and spirits and digestives, and you can really just ask what should I have at home or if I want to do a stirred cocktail, what would you recommend? If I want to do something for a party, what’s your go-to? And it’s amazing how generous bartenders are with their time and advice and excited to share some things. And that’s also a really great way to engage in your community and engage in local businesses.

Linda, these are amazing rules. Thank you so much. Before we go, if people want to follow you, book you for an event, or just see what you’re up to, where can they go?

They can find me on Instagram @_linduh_, or they can find me directly through donna-la.com.

Amazing. Thank you so much, and happy holidays.

Happy holidays. Thanks for having me.

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On this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with Kyle Knall, the Chef and Co-Owner of Birch and Culinary Director at Stone Bank Farm in Milwaukee, to talk about what it really means to work with farmers. From hugs at the market to crafting a menu around whatever’s thriving in the fields, Kyle lays out his Five Rules for Chefs who Work with Farmers. It’s about building trust, bringing hospitality to the fields, and treating farm-grown ingredients with the same care you’d give your guests. This isn’t a farm-to-table slogan; it’s a lived philosophy of sourcing, respect, and showing up for the people who feed us.

This one hit home. Supporting farmers isn’t just a nice gesture—it’s critical if you care about where your food comes from and who’s growing it. The local food economy depends on us showing up: asking questions, buying what’s in season, and cooking with intention. For me, the farmers market is one of the most inspiring places to start a recipe—it’s where the menu begins, not ends. Whether you’re a pro in the kitchen or just picking up some radishes for the weekend, connecting with your local growers helps you cook better and eat with purpose.

Photo Provided by Birch

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Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I chat with Kyle Knall, the chef and co-owner of Birch and the culinary director at Stone Bank Farm in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. He shares his five rules for chefs who work with farmers. He talks about the importance of knowing your farmer and their story, to let what’s at the farm dictate what you cook, and how hospitality at the restaurant should be extended to those who grow out in the fields. It is a fantastic conversation about the reciprocal relationship between those who grow and those who cook. So let’s get into the rules.

Kyle, so good to meet you. Thank you for taking the time out of your day, the restaurant and the farm, and sitting down with me for the show.

Excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

I know it’s a really tenuous time for farmers. What have you heard and experienced being on the ground in the Midwest?

First off, there’s always—this can sound negative, but it’s not—there’s always something. I don’t know if people actually realize that. We see farmers we work with three days a week, and it’s a rare thing for it to be just a perfect day for them because they have to deal with so many different variables—obviously rain, no rain, freezes, the crops getting eaten by deer. It’s just really tough every day, but especially now. I was actually in Washington DC two weeks ago talking about immigration and workforce. The people that were with me going to our representatives were dairy farmers. What they’re dealing with is just really insane. I’m worried about their workforce. It’s just a lot. Those things that are out of their control are really hurting them right now.

Being on both sides of that relationship—being a farm owner and a restaurant owner—what unique perspective do you have with the relationship between restaurants and farms?

To me, it’s hard to clarify what’s unique because I feel like it’s so normal for us. Stone Bank is the farm that we’re affiliated with. I am at the West Dallas Farmers Market three days a week. I hug these farmers three days a week. They come eat at the restaurant. They love my kids. It dictates what we do. I moved here from New York in 2020. For a long time, people were like, “Oh, how’s cooking in Milwaukee?” And the answer is it’s amazing because the agriculture is so incredible. We’re in vegetable and dairy heaven all the time. Being in this area of the country, getting to know these farmers really has dictated and helped us really do what we want in the restaurant and cook what we want.

It sounds like even with all the hardships, there is some hope. What’s a real bright spot for you right now in a farm-driven restaurant?

There’s always hardships. There’s always tough things. And I hate talking about tough things because there is so much great stuff. For us, we don’t have to worry about gas prices. We don’t have to worry about fees attached to big deliveries. We don’t have to worry about cooking things that don’t taste good. Being so connected to the farmers, seeing them throughout the week, knowing what’s coming, talking about what’s going to happen in the spring, what can be grown for us—those little things really are the huge pluses for us. Being a restaurant that uses so much farm-driven ingredients is really special because you’re not just financially supporting them, but you’re also supporting the community of people who make it up, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for chefs who work with farmers.

Anyone who’s gone to a farmer’s market for the first time can feel overwhelmed. You see these people, you don’t know who they are, you don’t know anything about them. Your first rule talks about the importance of getting to know who’s selling you different produce a little bit better to help you cook a little bit better. What’s your rule number one?

Rule #1: Know your farmer and their story.At the market we go to, we’ve found ingredients through the seasons now for four seasons that are delicious from certain farmers. Let’s just say like Jerry has the best garlic. First off, he trusts us. He started growing us avocado squash in Milwaukee, Wisconsin three years ago. Now he sells hundreds of pounds of it to people that aren’t professional—go to the market, that’s just another item that is producing more money for him. That trust really goes both ways. When you say to Jerry, “You don’t grow Sun Gold tomatoes or corn? Who should I buy it from?” I love that. That’s like the inside line. Making conversation with farmers or people in markets is a very important part. It’s starting those conversations and then building that trust. And like I said, the trust goes both ways. They start to trust you, then they’re really going to tell you their secrets.

I have to imagine that trust is even more important when you’re a chef and a restaurant owner—when you have an idea for a menu and you go to the market and either it’s sold out or not available. And you have to listen to the farmer and to the merchant selling what they got, which is a big part of your rule number two.

Rule #2: Cook what the farm gives you, not what you wish it would give you.I think most chefs need parameters. I can open up a cookbook tonight at home and say, “I want to make this tomorrow.” Sure, but are those ingredients there? We can cook whatever we want, so I think we need guidance and parameters to really follow. And that helps narrow down a clear vision and an identity. A chef’s job is to make sure food is delicious. So why would you not use the most delicious thing available to you? That’s the number two rule that we’re talking about. But in terms of who I am and what I do, that’s probably the number one. Going to the market and you’re looking for taste good. It’s just so many options. I know that I’ve been there and gone in with an idea of what I want to cook, but then I see that one parsnip or that one apple that goes, “I’m throwing everything out.”

Which is a core tenet of your rule number three.

Rule #3: Buy what looks good.100%. Delicious food. I know. You come back, it’s like, “I thought we were doing eggplant parm.” It’s like, “No, we’re not. I saw something else.” Our goal at Birch, what we talk about—we’re privileged to be able to go to these beautiful markets and walk up and see this amazing looking produce on the table, taken care of by who grew it. Of course, we’re going to have to manipulate it a little bit. Our goal is to show that beauty off. Let that shine. If you’re going to buy something and man, the Swiss chard is super wilted—should I really be getting this? If the kale looks really crisp and nice—yeah, get the one that looks good because it’s going to taste better. The mentality as you’re touching it, cooking it, looking at it—you’re just going to feel better about what you’re making. Things that look good, they’re going to cook good.

When you go to the market, you’re buying things that are maybe sometimes in bulk and you want to be cognizant of not throwing any of it out. What is your rule number four?

Rule #4: Reduce waste of intentionally grown items.Consider how to repurpose and find more of what you have. I have two kids. We cook at home. We definitely buy things that are in an abundance. Take what you need so you’re not having to waste anything—a whole head of cauliflower or two extra bunches of romaine or whatnot. But if you do, to me honestly, those second and third meals off ingredients—the better meals. Turning something that you’ve cooked into a soup. You buy a head of fennel and you just need to use a little bit for a salad. When you use the rest of that fennel for your next meal, I bet it’s going to be more delicious. It’s going to be something that you open the fridge and you’re like, “How can I use this?” To me, those things end up being more thoughtful and more delicious.

That respect, that understanding of the hard work that goes into growing all of this is really important. Because if you know how much sweat and labor goes into just a pea, a cherry tomato—something that you might just toss in the trash or take for granted—you lose a little bit of the perspective of what it means to be working at a farm. Your fifth and final rule talks about giving that respect and that acknowledgement of that hard work to the people who grow the food that we eat.

Rule #5: Hospitality should extend to farmers.I love that. I worked for Danny Meyer for a long time. We always talked about your employees, your team members. The phrase to me has morphed. Your employees and your purveyors and farmers are one thing. Lynn from SynthGraph Farm, Michelle from Stone Bank, Jerry from Jerry’s Produce—we’re 100% teammates. It’s a complete cycle, meaning they’ll grow things specifically for us. We buy them, we cook them. In their head, they’re like, “Oh, we’re going to go there and eat dinner because we know that thought is being put into those ingredients.” So they’re in the dining room meeting. Last night, they were here. We trust each other so much, take care of each other so well. You’re buying ingredients that you need to be amazing. Why would you not be hospitable to those people? They’re going to be the ones who are doing something you want. So why not take care of them in the first place? The whole thought about hospitality or farmer—I think about just saying, “What’s up, Jerry? How’s it going? How are you today?” Give him a hug. Those little moments make everyone feel a little warmer inside and everybody needs that. And as a restaurateur, it’s something that the hospitality should never turn off. You just keep it rolling through the days with our employees, with our guests and everything.

Kyle, congratulations on everything. If people want to check out Birch or swing by Stone Bank Farm, how can they follow along? How can they get involved?

The easiest thing is follow my Instagram, @KyleKnallYall, because it’s so clever. My wife came up with it. Wonderful. Birch Unpleasant and Stone Bank Farm Market.

Excited for you guys. Excited that you’re supporting the restaurant community, the farm community, and that you’re out there helping out people who need help during this pretty tough time—that you’re supporting small businesses. Hopefully I’m in the Midwest soon enough and I can swing by the farm and swing by the restaurant for a little shopping and a meal.

Yeah, that’d be great. Thanks so much.

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In this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with Aishwarya Iyer, founder of Brightland, to talk about how to find fresh ideas when the creative well runs dry. She shares her Five Rules for Finding Inspiration—ranging from the power of putting your phone down to digging back into past launches, and even borrowing inspiration from perfume bottles for food packaging. It’s a grounded, generous conversation that’s equal parts brand building and soul searching, perfect for anyone trying to make something new in a noisy world.

I love this episode because it’s a reminder that inspiration isn’t just waiting for you in obvious places—it’s hiding in your pantry, your community, even in your closet. Aishwarya’s approach to creativity is about looking sideways, not just forward. Whether it’s revisiting an old family recipe or walking a new aisle at a bookstore, finding new paths to creativity is how we keep growing, making, and evolving. This one gave me a few ideas of my own—and if you’ve been feeling stuck, it just might do the same for you.

My friend TEED has a new album out now, and it’s a perfect soundtrack for a dreamy winter wonderland. Stream or buy Always With Me wherever you listen to or purchase music.

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I sit down with Aishwarya Iyer, CEO and founder of Brightland, which is some of mine and my family’s favorite olive oil. She’s here today to share her five rules for finding inspiration. She talks about the importance of putting your phone down, keeping your head up and looking out in the world for new inspiration, how her previous products guide future endeavors, and the importance of embracing unconventional sources to find new ideas. It’s a deliciously fun and inspiring conversation with a lot of great takeaways for anyone who is stuck creatively or wants to expand their creative horizons.

So let’s get into the rules.

Aishwarya, welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I feel like I see you every day because we always have a bottle of your olive oil in our pantry and on my counter at all times.

That is music to my ears and I am thrilled to be here.

I love that you started your career at L’Oreal in the luxury products division because where you’ve wound up now is this high-end luxury part of the CPG market. How much parallel do you see from your work with both high-end makeup brands and high-end olive oils, honeys, and vinegars?

When I got into it, I didn’t see any parallel, but I created the parallel. If we can talk about blush and serum 500 different ways... then we can talk about these products that come straight from the earth that have so much provenance and terroir and story and history and taste and flavor. We can showcase them in interesting ways. We can photograph them in interesting ways. We can package them in interesting ways. And so I created it.

I’ve always felt that when I’ve traveled or gone to high-end specialty shops for food and pantry items, I’ve always known that there’s the top shelf stuff. And it’s the same way with fashion. And I know that you have looked at designers and different fashion brands for inspiration. What is it about their work in that field that inspires you?

They are looking at emotion first. How do we make people feel? They’re not trying to talk to themselves. CPG and food especially has a funny way of wanting to talk to ourselves a lot. Right, right. Here are all our value propositions. Are you creating an emotional connection with anybody out there? Are you making people feel something? And I think that fashion, when done well, they’re able to do it really masterfully. And it doesn’t have to be luxury. I see Gap doing it right now beautifully. That to me was this driving force of, oh my gosh, we’re not just in the business of food. We’re not just in the business of olive oil. We’re not just in the business of marketing. We’re in the business of emotions. Why not spend time there? Spend time thinking about how we want people to feel.

Tapping into those deep emotions, knowing that something is going to have that connection over a long time is so tricky these days because there’s so many trends. How do you understand something that is going to be worthwhile investing in, making it a product, something that you’re really going to build a whole story and brand around?

It comes back to having two dualities at once inside of you. There are two olive oils inside of you at all times. Yeah, exactly. Like ruthless impatience coupled with remembering that time is always on your side. I’m able to take that duality and reality and be able to say, okay, there is a trend. We think this trend is really interesting because it’s going to make our customer feel XYZ. We’re going to hop on or lean into that trend. And at the same time, we’re going to say no to these 500 other trends. Of course. Because they’re not the right thing for us.

I would not say that we are experts or we’ve really mastered that at all, to be totally honest with you. 2025 was a good example of a year where if I look back, I’m like, hmm, I think we could have actually been a little more trend driven. We weren’t. We were very, let’s really focus on what the consumer is asking for and let’s focus on certain occasions that were showing up for her. And that was kind of it.

Being a founder and the CEO or a leader of any company does require you to make those decisions about creating stability when you could feel pressured to grow. It’s a hard balance to find. What I love about your approach is no matter what phase of the business you’re in, you are always looking for what comes next, which is why I’m so excited for you to talk about your five rules for finding inspiration. And your first rule talks about looking inward in your own life for finding something to inspire you. What’s your rule number one?

Rule number one is getting offline and looking inward is absolutely the best place to find inspiration.

Why?

You just said there are so many trends out there. We are constantly looking at that brick. And what that means is we’re not just consuming, we’re absorbing other people’s energies, other people’s inspiration, other people’s goals and dreams, other people’s lives and content. I really like to shut off social media. And I think that it then creates more space. You’re looking around you. You’re looking around your house. You’re looking around when you’re waiting for an elevator instead of looking down at your phone. And you might see something. You might see a color. You might see a piece of artwork on the wall that you never noticed before. I hate saying that because it sounds so obvious and maybe 25 years ago, this wouldn’t have been one of my five rules.

I see it with a lot of my friends who are business owners being zapped of creative inspiration, frankly, being zapped of energy to propel them forward in their businesses because they’re way too online.

I totally agree. I start each day walking the dogs around the block with no phone.

That’s amazing.

Not taking every moment of your life to look at a phone or to get caught up in someone else’s energy is a really good way to think about your own experiences and to think about what’s going on in your life, either past or present, which is really a good spot to find inspiration and ties directly into your rule number two.

Rule number two is transforming the obstacles that are in your life into creative fuel.

That could be in the rudimentary, I’ll show you, I’ll show them, I’ll show myself, right? Which everyone kind of has that fire within them. Of course. That is something one can do rather than saying, I’m going to give up or I don’t believe I can. But instead saying, okay, this happened for me. How can I transform it? So that’s one way to do it. And then the other way is to also take a look more deeply and say, whether it’s grief or loss, how can I take memories and incorporate it into whatever I’m doing that’s artful, whether it’s into my writing or my poetry or into the work that I do, into the art that I create. I firmly believe it’s possible, but it requires you to go inward in the first place and create space to move through the emotions of heartbreak and sadness and grief and despair and disappointment to then come out on the other side.

I’m not discounting heartbreak or sadness or any personal crisis because as we all know, that’s made a ton of great art. In fact, some of my favorite.

Once you get past or maybe go through some of your inner crisis or emotions or maybe more of the standard spots for inspiration, finding new wells to tap is a big part of your rule number three.

Embracing unconventional sources.

Anytime that I’ve been seeing where people get inspiration lately, they say Pinterest. They say museums. Sure. There’s a lot of the usual suspects. Of course. But coming back to the unconventional sources, why don’t we open up some old magazines that we haven’t looked at? Open up a book in your shelf that you haven’t looked at in a while. I was doing this exercise where I was grabbing books and then opening to a random page and finding a word that I was really delighted by and then writing down that word and thinking about what that word meant in my life and then writing a little thing and then that turned into something. And so you can really start pulling threads.

The more we are leaning into human-made inspiration, I do think Mother Earth can be an incredible source. Just go and look at the tree across from you. Give it a hug. Look at its details. Look up. Look around. You just don’t know what might find you.

Rule number four is to revisit the past.

And it’s something that I don’t think we do enough of. We’re always moving forward. We live in a capitalist society that constantly has us looking ahead. I do this thing where I look at all the old launches that we’ve had, whether it’s an olive oil or a vinegar, and I say, what did we do well here? What did I like? What didn’t I like? What can I bring from that? Because there’s something to it. We thought it was a great idea back then. Maybe we did it in the wrong way. How can we revive it? How can we give it new life? Or we thought it was a great idea and we did it in the right way. And what can we just bring into this moment?

I think that that can be such a wonderful springboard. And it’s not just about work and your own projects. I do this with recipes. I look at the old recipes that I’ve tried out. And I think to myself, oh, I really liked this. What did I like about it? And how can I bring that back into what I’m doing today?

So, if you’re feeling stuck, either emotionally or creatively or personally, you can always go back and look at something that once worked and use it as a moment to jump forward into the future. Which brings us to your fifth and final rule, which I really love.

It’s to go outside your category.

That’s hard to do when you’re in a leadership position or even just in a working position because you’re often asked to stay focused. But you are a big believer in inspiration through divergence.

Yes. When you go outside your category, you get a whole new lens. And it has to be a category where you feel some delight. I love food and beverage. I work in food and beverage. So, sometimes going to a grocery store actually is a source of delight and can bring new inspiration. But sometimes it is feeling very insular and myopic. And I need to go look at the sneaker drop that happened. Or what happened in terms of what brands were activated at the U.S. Open. Or I need to go look at a wellness moment that’s going on or a spa that’s opening up and how are they talking about the experience.

One of the most joyful examples was when I was looking for packaging for our honey jars. And I looked at perfume bottles and I was like, oh, my God, some of these perfume bottles are so cool and so interesting. Could we emulate that in some way with our honeys? And so the perfume bottle universe was what kind of sparked the idea of our honey bottles. And so go outside your category.

That is such a beautiful, intentional moment of being open to influence. And it is such a great reminder that when you’re working in any category, especially if it’s product driven, that there are so many ideas and moments of inspiration from unexpected places. Aishwarya, thank you so much for sharing your Five Rules for Finding Inspiration. Where can people find your olive oil?

Brightland.co and at Brightland on social.

And if they wanted to check out your honeys, your vinegars, your new ghee, your new superfood honey or your new chili oil?

All there. All at Brightland.co.

And are you doing any in-person pop-ups or are there going to be any markets that people can find you?

There will be some in-person pop-ups in Los Angeles. And we may or may not be opening up a space sometime in 2025.

Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on Five Rules for the Good Life.

Thank you so much.

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This week on Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with Los Angeles Times restaurant critic Bill Addison to break down the art of reading restaurant lists to celebrate their annual 101 Best Restaurants in LA list. We talk through his Five Rules for Navigating a Restaurant List, what makes a place worth your time, how to spot the real gems, and why great dining recs go way beyond buzzy names with tasting menus. From affordable neighborhood spots to splurge-worthy tables, Bill shares how he evaluates restaurants and what it takes to make a place unforgettable. If you’ve ever planned a trip around where to eat (or wanted to), this one’s for you.

This episode hits home, especially for someone who travels with their stomach leading the way. Bill gives a masterclass in parsing the hidden signals in a restaurant list—what’s missing, what’s included, and what it says about the person writing it. He also reminds us that real culinary culture lives not just in the fancy spots, but in the mom-and-pop joints and immigrant-run kitchens that define a city’s soul. Whether you’re planning your next big trip, trying to eat better in your own backyard, or just want to level up your restaurant intel, this is required listening.

It’s the holiday season!

The good people of Now Serving have all of your holiday bases covered with a bounty of beautifully signed books for all of your gift-giving needs.

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I sit down with my friend and restaurant critic for the Los Angeles Times, Bill Addison, who shares his five rules for navigating a restaurant list to celebrate the newspaper’s annual release of their 101 Best Restaurant List.

He talks about the importance of trusting the experts, understanding the context of any list you delve into, and how by financially supporting newspapers and newsletters, you’ll get the most out of any research you read.

It is an insightful conversation from one of the people behind one of the most influential lists in all of America.

One technical note: there was a little bit of distortion during our recording, so please ignore any pops you might hear.

So let’s get into the rules.

Bill, so good to see you. Always a pleasure. Thank you for making time before the LA Times 101 Best Restaurant list drops. I know you’re a busy man, so I appreciate it.

Great to see you there, and thank you for having me.

We’ve talked a lot about finding and searching for new restaurants in your own city or abroad. Can you describe that feeling when you find a new place and it actually hits?

Yeah, I’m thinking of a restaurant in Paris called Datil that I went to this summer that just blew me away. I mean, I almost wanted to cry through the meal. It was mostly vegetarian cooking, but it was done with such finesse. And it was something that I feel like we’re missing in California with all our crazy, beautiful bounty here. I just felt emotional through it.

When something really hits, it hits more than the palate. It hits more than the senses. Yeah, it makes you think. It makes you feel. It just brings you back to your own humanity.

I’ve found that when I find these places, it feels like I found another home. And I know that when people find those places, you are in the envious position of people wanting to share them with you. Especially in Los Angeles, as people go, like, I found this gem, I found the spot, is it on your radar?

But I have to imagine it’s overwhelming. How do you handle so many recommendations coming to you all the time?

I’m looking more than ever in my 20-plus years of reviewing restaurants for a narrative that grabs me. If someone kindly emails me and tells me about a wonderful Italian restaurant in their neighborhood, I will certainly go to the website and scan the menu. But what gets representative of that cuisine, which is really many regional cuisines, on restaurant menus in America is often quite repetitive.

I’m always excited when somebody thinks outside the box, cooks from their own perspective, cooks from an intense curiosity that led them to some sort of contextual expertise. That just doesn’t apply to Italian food. That applies to every cuisine on the globe.

The known beauty of Los Angeles is that so many of them are here or so many of them will show up because our immigrant communities are what give the city meaning.

That’s one of the things a lot of people have come to love and respect about your own list, the 101 best restaurants in Los Angeles, is that it is diverse. It does represent a lot of the city.

How do you marry an editorial approach with utility when putting the list together?

I am thinking about excellence and narrative or representation in equal amounts. Excellence is so subjective, but it’s very easy—or has been easy—in considering restaurant culture to just default to the fanciest, most ambitious restaurants.

I love that this decade, this moment in restaurant culture, for people who really care about dining, care about this subject, we all know that excellence comes in many, many forms.

It is amazing. My job, our job, is to think about that as broadly and as deeply as possible, which includes an awful lot of research and eating and following up and asking myself where a specific restaurant fits within the fabric of the community.

I think it’s really interesting to look at the community on both sides of the list—both those who are being put on it and those who are using it—either those who are locals or those who are coming to a city, whether it’s LA, Florence, Tokyo.

Because a lot of times you can look at these lists, especially when the numbers are in the 10, 20, 30, 40 recommendations and not sure how to use it, not sure how to read it. Which is why I’m so excited to have you here to share your five rules for navigating a restaurant list.

All right. Before we get into the rules, though, you mentioned you wanted to set up a little bit of framing, which I think is great because sometimes people just open a list and they haven’t even asked themselves, what am I looking for?

So let’s set the personal parameters of how you’re setting up your five rules before we get into the rules themselves.

I would say I present these rules, these thoughts, with the hypothesis that the listener knows, first of all, what they’re looking for or what interests them in a restaurant list at any given moment.

Are you looking for fresh inspiration? Are you looking for the worthiest splurge to celebrate a special occasion? Does the guide double for you as a cultural read?

The best lists probably address more than one of these needs. That’s the context when I thought through these five rules.

There’s a lot of thought that went into these rules. There’s a lot of research that goes into these lists.

I think it’s fair to say that not all lists are created equal. Some are written from one point of view, and some are crowdsourced.

Your first rule focuses on picking the list by someone who’s done all of the research. What’s your rule number one?

Rule number one is: Believe in expertise.

We do live in an age of all-around distrust. Media more than ever seems to bring out the negativity bias baked into our human survival mechanisms.

The number two and number three top ranked restaurants in Los Angeles on TripAdvisor—no shade, no judgment. Number two is Bubba Gump Shrimp Company. And number three is a Denny’s.

I want people to believe in those of us who are paid to eat, even if you don’t wholeheartedly agree with opinions of specific writers, because we really do have your interests at heart when we write a big list. We’re thinking within the context of a citywide dining scene.

And I think all good lists have a specificity to them, right? They nod to the obvious but also hope to encourage you in new directions, to point out people and cuisines that bring novel or specific perspectives.

That context and specificity can be easily missed if you just skip the opening, go straight to the spots listed, and say, “I don’t understand this perspective that’s being shared.”

Your second rule says, “Hold on, before you scroll down, read first.” What’s your second rule?

Rule number two: Give the introduction a chance.

Now listen, a lot of us are scarred from internet recipes that have nine paragraphs. Rarely do the introductions to restaurant lists have nine paragraphs because we know no one is going to read nine thick paragraphs.

That opening crunch of words that most people scroll by as fast as possible to just get to the names of restaurants—it’s totally understandable. But taking the 90 seconds to breeze through the introduction might ultimately save you time.

It’s where the writer is telling you a little bit more about what they’re up to beyond the clickbait headline and what that reveals.

When I’m researching a trip, for example, and I’m sifting through lists and I see, let’s say, a writer prominently mentions Michelin-starred restaurants in a given city, that might tell me that this writer is almost in a dialogue about whether she agrees with inspector ratings or not. So that’s a choice.

And maybe that’s what I want in Tokyo, but not what I want in Philadelphia.

Lists that focus only on the high ends of dining miss a huge part of any culinary scene—from food options to storytelling. Your third rule talks about scanning the list for these types of restaurants. What’s your rule number three?Rule number three, scan for the more affordable restaurants. Their inclusion speaks volumes. Yes. It’s important when writing a great restaurant list to plant a flag on your opinions of the greatest tasting menu restaurants, the places worth fighting for reservations. That’s important. But I’m always super interested in what a writer chooses for the more affordable neighborhood restaurants and why. They say so much about the research that went into the article. I’m looking for some engaging choices specifically that illuminate the immigrant communities in any given city. You get to know a neighborhood by its character, by its cultural flavor that bleeds into the restaurants. I want to know where do the locals eat when they’re not spending a crazy amount of money? Where do the locals eat when they want something fast and fantastic like Holbox? Holbox is one of my favorite restaurants to recommend. It checks every single box. It’s so beautifully affordable and it’s a lens into Los Angeles.

Being able to see those restaurants and to know about these restaurants is something that I feel lucky enough to have gotten off of certain lists. And not all those lists are free. Sometimes you have to support them. We’ve all heard democracy dies in the dark. True. And that’s sometimes because they can’t afford their electric bill. Your fourth rule talks about putting your money where your mouth is. What’s your rule number four? Rule number four, splurge for a subscription. And it’s not a big splurge. It’s not a big splurge. Most daily newspapers in America have some sort of $1 for the first three or six months. Yeah. Give us a shot. Speaking for myself, the Los Angeles Times pays for all my meals. I go to restaurants multiple times. They support knowledge. They support expertise through experience. Also, try out the monthly option for a Substack written by a person who had caught your eye doing interesting restaurant content on their social media. Yeah. They’re trying to support themselves. They’re trying to build an independent media company, essentially. I’m thinking of Vittles in London, I think is the greatest example of a newsletter that has grown into a small media company pulling in slash supporting multiple voices and seeking out the obscurest possible gems.

We’re all dubious of capitalism these days, but we’re all still living in it and expertise subsists on investment. It’s amazing how many of these major publications have invested in food, have put resources behind this type of journalistic coverage. Because, not to date myself, when I started traveling for food, I was checking Chow Hound, E. Gullet, regional newspapers for maybe a glimmering of a mention of food, a restaurant or dish to try out. What it taught me is that once you find a spot or two, it always pays, especially in a new city, to see if that place pops up somewhere else, which is a big part of your fifth and final rule. Cross check lists, especially if you’re traveling to eat. Especially is light. Yes. You have to if you’re traveling to eat. Yes.

This past summer, during a trip to Paris, we were there to celebrate a close friend’s 50th birthday. He chose Paris because he’d never been before. I hadn’t been in a decade. There were five to eight people to plan meals around at any given time. And it was my job to organize it all. Of course. Of course. But you live for this. You live for this. I do live for it. It was my pleasure, right? Heavy is the head, right? Right. I read all the lists. I went to Eater. I went to Condé Nast Traveler. Our dearly departed Emily Wilson and her newsletter, The Angel, because Emily goes to Paris a lot. For my subscription splurge that made planning so much easier, I ponied up for the Paris by Mouth newsletter. Oh, shout out. Yeah, which has lists and lists and lists. Organized by overall greatness, by geography, by days of the week and holidays even. Meg does great work. She does great work. I looked through all of them. I saw who leaned fancy, who leaned scrappy, where tastes intersected.

Over and over again, as one example, writers mentioned Breit’s Cafe. I hope I’m pronouncing that correctly. The Normandy Galette spot. Great sparkling pear cider from Normandy. And you know what? Affordable, total win with everyone. Everyone was so happy. And within walking distance from the Picasso Museum. Yep. Our group had a strong Lebanese contingent. My best friend, she’s Lebanese. I wanted to make sure that she and her family were impressed. And cross-checking pointed me to a tiny place called Kubri that is Lebanese, blends innovation and tradition in the cooking, woman chef, which was a real plus. Absolutely loved it. It was the only restaurant that I went back to twice on that trip because I was so taken by it. Seeing places more than once gave me confidence that not only I, but the people I was planning for would really love it. And then I could write my own newsletter, name checking all the places I’d loved in Paris. And I could give appropriate credit to the writers and publications that pointed me towards success.

And that for me is the implied sixth rule, which is paying it forward feels really good. It feels really good. There is this place called Osteria, Vini e Vecchi Sapori. It’s in Florence. We got it off an Eater list. I’ve been there. I probably sent you there. You probably didn’t send me there. It is the number one spot of our family in Italy. We got off the list. Anytime anyone goes there, we send them there. We have credit where credit’s due. Bill, so excited to see the 101 drop December 9th. If people want to pick up a copy of the physical list or they want to read it online, where can they go? What can they do? They can go to latimes.com forward slash 101. And then it’s going to be in print on the following Sunday, the 14th in the LA Times. If you have a print subscription and if not, and you love print, you can order it from the LA Times online store. It’s one of my favorite events. It’s the industry’s holiday party before everyone either scuttles off back to the restaurant or everyone disappears back home for the holidays. Bill, always a pleasure. I can’t wait to share another meal with you in the new year. So looking forward to it. I’ll probably pull a recommendation off your list. Please do. Thank you for having me, Darin. Thank you.

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This week on Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with Ron Silver and Liz Clarke of Bubby’s in New York—two seasoned pie‑makers sharing the love, technique, and legacy behind their famous slices. From why the harvest of apples and pumpkins gave rise to the American fruit pie, to the very technical details of dough temperature, cutting butter to the right size, and letting the crust rest properly, they walk us through Bubby’s Five Rules for How to Bake Pie at Home. Whether you’re a complete beginner or a pro pie maker, you’ll walk away from the episode with actionable tips that actually make a difference. If you’re ready to level up your holiday baking game, their cookbook Homemade Pies is the perfect companion.

I’ve always believed that baking is part science, part story, especially when it’s something as comforting as homemade pie. What I love about this episode is how Ron and Liz blend both so seamlessly, the precision of insider knowledge, with the warmth of tradition. As someone trying to bake more intentionally (and maybe a little less messily), hearing these masters break it down with clarity and passion is pure gold.

If you know me, you know I love my turkey necks, a long-standing family tradition that we observe when celebrating Thanksgiving. For everyone who’s ever asked, here is my Mom’s recipe. You can make them any time you want, just make sure you make enough.

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. To kick off the holiday season, I’m sitting down with Ron Silver, the chef and owner of Bubby’s in New York City, and Bubby’s executive chef, Liz Clarke.

Today, we’re chatting everything pie as they share Bubby’s five rules for how to bake pie at home. They talk about how temperature is the key to everything, how shaping your dough will lead to a less leaky slice, and how resting your pie at the right time will create the perfect slice every time. It’s a great mini masterclass for anyone who’s ever wanted to start baking at home—and some real insider tips for anyone who considers themselves a professional baker.

So let’s get into the rules.

Ron and Liz, so nice to meet you. The holiday season is upon us, and I couldn’t think of two better people to kick it off with than you two.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having us.

Thanksgiving is right around the corner. Hanukkah, Christmas, Kwanzaa—everything’s coming up. The holiday season. Why does this time of year and pies work so well together?

That is a deep, deep question, really. America really invented pie—the pie as we know it, like fruit pies. Before that, the Romans would have some sort of cooked meat wrapped in dough. And then the English developed these meat pies. But before America was really rolling, they didn’t have these fruit pies the way that we have them. A lot of that is because of the abundance of American agriculture and orchards. And this is harvest season for pumpkins and apples. Once you start harvesting, you’ve got to find something to do with them.

Longtime fan of Bubby’s. And it was fun to learn that you started it as a pop-up for Thanksgiving with pies 35 years ago. What inspired you to start the restaurant there?

What inspired me is my status of being unemployable. It’s always a good place to start. I’m an artist and… my choices were really to either start a restaurant—because that was my skill as a chef—or just because I really had developed a not-the-best attitude working with other chefs in the food of the eighties. I suppose that my attitude towards that food made it impossible for me to cook it. So I was either going to be a dishwasher or my own chef. That’s really how this—“pop-up” is generous—how Bubby’s got started, because we just opened up with no permission whatsoever.

What a good time to be doing restaurants in New York. A lot less red tape during that time. I feel like New York City was really grateful to just have people trying to give it a go. Especially in that part of town.

It really was quiet. There weren’t even traffic lights down here and it was kind of a no man’s land in a way. Although there were a lot of celebrities living down here because of the large loft spaces. They were really off the beaten path, you’d say.

You guys literally wrote the book on homemade pies, which is for anyone who wants to start baking any time of the year—but especially for the holiday season—is a great tome to have in your kitchen. Why should people learn how to cook pies at home?

It’s really a beautiful thing to do where you offset yourself and be relaxed and enjoy the steps to do it. There’s a connection of home and your family with pie. It’s not rushed. You take the steps to do it, and it comes out really well. So it’s sort of also an all-encompassing warmth in the house, because there’s nothing more all-encompassing than a baking pie coming out of the oven and getting ready to cut and all of that stuff. It’s an experience.

There’s something about the phrase of a loved one saying, “I’m going to bake a pie,” especially for the holidays, that really warms the soul—which is why I’m excited for you to be sharing your five rules for how to bake a pie at home. I love the way you organize this because this really is a great chronological order of how to best prepare yourself and get ready if you’re either a well-seasoned pie maker or attempting it for the first time.

What’s your rule number one?

The number one rule that we have written down is always preheat your oven and make sure that your oven is really hot. But I think all the temperatures matter, and it’s good to be preparing dough in the coolest possible place in the house.

Which leads us into rule number two: keeping the fat that you’re going to make the pastry with—and your hands—cool.

The reality is, you usually will make your dough before you have to turn on the oven. We make the dough, keep everything as cool as possible, you put it into the refrigerator just to let the dough rest a little bit, and then you can preheat your oven before you bake. You really want to make sure it’s super hot.

A lot of the times when people are working that dough, there is a bit of a mystery of how much to form it, how much to work it. And your rule number three talks about the right amount of work that goes into making the perfect dough.

One of the things is really to cut the butter in small enough pieces and the fat—we use lard and butter. Having pieces that are pea-sized, that allows you to start working that fat into the dough quickly. And then adding the ice water, you really want to just scoop it together. Lift it and bind it, but not manhandle it. Go lightly and it will form itself into a ball. As you’re lifting up, you can feel the water, because it’s a very small amount of water moistening the flour. And then you just push it together into a ball as lightly as possible.

That really creates space between the very simple ingredients, which is fat and water, and it allows for the steam pockets to form when it’s baking—and that’s what makes a flaky crust.

Once you have that perfectly made dough, shaping it is the next point of artistry, which is a big part of your rule number four.

Rule number four is to crimp and trim carefully. After you’ve formed a dough ball and rolled it out to less than an eighth of an inch, you never want to be pushing this dough around in any kind of rough way. You lay the bottom crust into the pan and then pour the filling in. And with the filling, we also don’t push that down. Everything is very much just sort of laid in there, because that allows for a crust surface that we find to be nice.

The most important thing in this rule four is trimming the dough around the pie dish and then rolling it and crimping it properly. Otherwise, you get a lot of juice leaking out into the pan as opposed to staying in the pie.

We’ve all experienced leaky pies, which can ruin all of the effort and all of the work that you put into rolling the dough and shaping it correctly.

Your fifth and final rule deals again with temperature both before and after the bake. The after I knew, the before is new to me. What is your fifth and final rule?

The fifth and final rule is cool your pie before you bake it and make sure you allow it to cool down properly after you’ve baked it. Before you’ve baked it is after you roll out the dough and crimp it, you want to give it a half hour to rest in the refrigerator so that the gluten has a chance to relax to make the flakiest possible crust.

Just to get back to rule four, when you’re rolling and crimping, you want to make sure that it’s not overly thick. When you bake that, you end up with a raw part in the middle.

And the other thing that I just want to say to go back to rule number one—the very hot part of the oven and the bake is only the first 10 or 11 minutes. The goal is to set that crust with a high temperature so that you basically started to bake the crust first, and then you turn the oven down—from say 425 to 350. You’re baking two things at the same time: you start the crust first, and then you focus on the filling next.

Most people probably just leave it at one temp the whole time and let it ride.

That’s a mistake, I would say.

And then the final part before you slice and the presentation—it’s like anything that’s coming out of the oven, patience is key. How long would you recommend letting it wait before you slice and serve?

Four hours. If I can hold my wrist on it—I have lots of children, so I’ve squirted a lot of milk onto my wrist—you want it to be a little bit cooler than body temperature to be able to hold the form of the fruit. Pumpkin pie really needs to set for about four hours before it’s ready to cut.

I know you’re going to be busy for the holiday season serving up a ton of pies, and I appreciate you taking the time to tell the people at home the best tips and rules of how to bake pies for themselves. If people want to get the book, order pies from you, swing into the restaurant—where can they go?

Bubbys.com. Come to our website. That’s the place to buy it.

Have a great holiday season, and I hope to see you soon the next time I’m in New York.

Thank you so much for having us on, and let us know when you’re in town.

Yeah, we’ll share a slice together.

That sounds great.

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On this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with India Doris, the co-owner and executive chef of Markette and The Argyle in Manhattan, whose journey from 15-year-old line cook to celebrated NYC chef is nothing short of extraordinary. From the competitive kitchens of Europe to the high-wire hustle of New York, India shares her Five Rules for Working in a Kitchen—lessons forged in long hours, sharp knives, and a relentless drive to stay humble, stay learning, and cook food you actually believe in. These are service-tested rules from someone who’s earned every stripe and every scar. If you’ve ever stepped onto the line, led a team under pressure, or just wondered what it takes to survive and thrive in the culinary world, this episode’s for you.

But let’s be real—these rules aren’t just for chefs. Anyone working in a fast-paced, high-skill environment will find India’s advice spot on. Whether you’re pulling shots in a coffee shop, producing live TV, managing a startup team, or running a construction crew, the fundamentals are the same: show up prepared, focus on small daily wins, listen, and respect the people around you. Staying humble, staying kind, and staying curious is how you build trust, earn opportunities, and keep leveling up. This episode serves as a blueprint for growing without burning out, and for leading without losing sight of the goal.

Photo by Natalie Black

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Transcript

INTRODUCTION

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I sit down with India Doris, the co-owner and executive chef at Markette and the Argyle in Manhattan.

As a longtime journey chef, she started cooking in kitchens at the age of 15, working her way across the UK, Europe, and eventually winding up in New York City. She shares her five rules for working in a kitchen. It talks about the importance of having manageable daily goals, how to stay humble, and that by cooking your own food, you will eventually find success.

So let’s get into the rules.

EARLY JOURNEY & TRAINING

India, so nice to meet you. Thank you for making the time, especially with the Argyle being open only a few weeks. I appreciate you sitting down for the show.Thanks for having me on the show. I appreciate it. There’s always stuff to do. It’s nice to take a second actually to just talk about it.

So you’re originally from the UK and you wound up cooking through some legendary kitchens across Europe, which really harkens back to an older type of culinary training. How much of that old school mentality did you experience and what did you love about that time in your life?I feel like I experienced a lot of it. The first 10 years I experienced a lot. It was 17 hour shifts, 18 hour shifts, no breaks, not eating the amount I should be running around. But then it was very, it still is very competitive. But I think back then, because of the hours, because of the stress, because of all the pressure that gets put on an individual, you’re left with a really intense group of people.Yes. We’ve gotten better. We’re not working as many hours. It’s a lot more welcoming. But because of the hours and because of the demand, it definitely left a really intense group of people that you had to work against—or work with, sorry, not against.Wow.Depending on what kitchen you’re in and who’s leading it.It felt like that sometimes, yes. Sometimes it’s against on purpose.Yeah.

MOVING TO NEW YORK

You cook across Europe. You meet this incredible group of people. You could have planted a flag anywhere. What drew you to the kitchens of New York?New York is a special place.Yeah, you can say that again.I’m from London. I’m a city girl, born and bred in the city. Love it. I know what it’s like to run around in the city causing trouble and doing dumb teenage stuff. At a young age, I became a little bit of a nomad. I moved all over the place. I moved to France and Spain, and I came here. I was only supposed to be here for a year. I was going to go to Australia after. I was like, all right, let me start my visa for Australia while I was here, because I stayed here for a year. I was like, I want to stay longer, but it wasn’t working out that way. Let me go home first.I miss New York so much. I was like, wow, I haven’t had this feeling before because as a good nomad does, they travel all over the place. They want to see new places. But I was really drawn by it because I was getting a little bit older. To find a city that felt similar but different was something that drew me back.So I ended up coming back and I’ve been here for nine years now.

New York just gets in your blood. Once you’ve experienced the kitchens of New York and the food and the community here, it’s hard to walk away from it.

DECIDING TO OPEN HER OWN PLACE

What was the moment you realized that you wanted to open up your own spot and you were ready to run your own kitchen in New York City?After a couple of decades of working under people, seeing different parts of the world, the way they work, how they work for extensive amount of time. Then coming to New York, when I first came here, I worked under James Kent. I was with him for eight years. We opened up Crown Shy, we got one star in 10 months. We opened up Saga, we got two stars in six months.Incredible.All of the information that I gathered from traveling, from seeing different places, from meeting all these people. When you’re a really young chef, you cook people’s food, and I think it’s an important thing to cook people’s food because you really start to learn what your food is. When I was a young cook, I would go and work in these incredible Michelin-style places, and I learned how to be an adult in these kitchens. You know? I worked in kitchens from 15 years old. I know how to be an adult. That’s a bad thing and a good thing. I was living on my own at 16 paying rent. I was taught by these crazy people how to be, how to run my life.After working with James, he was probably the nicest, most calm, productive chef I’ve ever worked for. And after a few years of working with him, I’m like, yeah, I really just don’t want to work with anyone else.Totally.I did learn so much from that. I learned how to refine my own food. But however many years later, I’ve realized that I’ve got a good understanding of what my own food is. And I’ve only been able to do that from cooking from other people and learning from other people and doing all this. I was like, well, I got to do this on my own now.

RULE 1: KEEP YOUR HEAD DOWN AND YOUR KNIFE SHARP

Being able to work in all these kitchens at such a relatively young age, it’s really amazing for you to be able to have distilled all that knowledge, which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for working in a kitchen.

Your first rule deals with something that I learned with working on the other side, which was when I had to shoot with chefs and come into their kitchen, being prepared both mentally and physically. What’s your rule number one?Rule number one, and this is something that I learned from when I was very, very young. I was working in kitchens full time from 15. I was doing a ridiculous amount of hours. You know, the road is very long. You have a long way to go and you have a lot of people to learn from to get to the goal that you want to get to.Someone said to me one day, keep your head down and your knife sharp.They said it in a lot of different ways than I’m saying it now.It was not as kind.You need to learn from as many people as possible. And to be honest, you need to want people to want to teach you how to do stuff. If you’re running around blabbing your mouth and doing all this and that, no one’s going to want to teach you. The one thing that you need to do as a young cook who doesn’t know anything is keep your head down and your knife sharp and just watch what everyone else is doing.

RULE 2: HAVE DAILY MANAGEABLE GOALS

That dovetails really nicely into your second rule because it’s easy to be in a kitchen, to be talking about all these big plans and these big pictures and what you’re going to do, but that’s not the task at hand of how to survive and succeed working in a kitchen. What’s your second rule?My second rule is have daily manageable goals. That’s important. We all have these goals. I had this dream when I was 15. I’m going to do this and I’m going to do that. That’s all great. I think that’s an important thing to have. But you need to have daily manageable goals in order to get to this bigger beyond.If you cut chives by 2:40 today, then by 2:35 tomorrow, you’re going to cut the chives. They’re going to be done. They’re going to be put away.I love that.And then the next day it’s going to be 2:32 and 2:30. And then you slowly start pulling back and pulling back and you hone in the area that you’re at, the things that you’re doing. They’re getting better. They’re getting stronger. You’re getting stronger. And this is how you get to that bigger goal.

RULE 3: STAY HUMBLE, STAY LEARNINGI also love that your third rule touches on something that is important in kitchens but often forgotten—humility. What’s your third rule?Stay humble, stay learning. You have to stay humble. You always need to be learning. That’s something that I’ve realized has helped me develop so much as a chef. I’ve worked with all these people and I’ve seen all these places, and I know what’s good and I know what’s bad, but I’m not done yet. I want to learn more. I want to see more. And I think the more you stay humble, the more you stay learning. The moment you think you know everything, you’re going to fall. You’re going to fall hard. You’re going to fall real hard.It’s the truth.So just keep your ears open. And you might learn from a 15-year-old line cook. You might learn from a server who’s just joined. You might learn from a dishwasher who’s been doing this longer than you have.Absolutely.Everyone around you has something to teach you. Stay humble and stay learning.

RULE 4: COOK YOUR OWN FOODNow your fourth rule is something I’ve heard chefs struggle with, especially when they move from being part of someone else’s team to leading their own kitchen. What’s your fourth rule?Cook your own food. That’s my fourth rule. When you’re young, you want to emulate everyone that you admire, which is great. But at a certain point, you have to stop mimicking and start creating.You’ve got to figure out what your food is.It might take you 10 years. It might take you 20. You’re not going to get it right every time. But the more you cook your own food—flavors that resonate with you, ideas that inspire you—the closer you’ll get to being a great chef. That’s when people will take notice. That’s when you’ll really start to feel confident. And that’s when your guests will connect with what you’re doing.

RULE 5: STAY CONSISTENT, STAY KINDYour fifth rule is a great one because it combines two things that matter in every part of life, not just in the kitchen. What’s your fifth rule?Stay consistent, stay kind. You’ve got to be consistent in your actions, in your dishes, in how you treat people. But more importantly, you’ve got to be kind. Kind to your team, kind to your vendors, kind to the dishwashers, to the people who come through the door. Because when you’re kind, people remember. People want to work with you.Absolutely.And in this industry, where burnout is real and egos can run high, kindness stands out. It really does. It’s powerful.

CLOSINGIndia, thank you so much for sharing your five rules. If people want to come check out your food, where can they go?Come to Markette or The Argyle in Manhattan. We’re doing something really special here. And we’d love to cook for you.Amazing. Thank you again for being on the show.Thanks for having me.

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This week on Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with chef, restaurateur, and author Arnold Myint, whose new cookbook Family Thai: Bringing the Flavors of Thailand Home is a love letter to legacy, flavor, and family. We talk about the roots of his family’s Nashville restaurant, International Market, the stories behind his mom’s recipes, and the responsibility of passing culinary traditions down. Arnold shares his Five rules for Mastering a Family Recipe, everything from staying true to the original version and then knowing when it’s time to make it your own. It’s heartfelt, emotional, and packed with wisdom for anyone who’s ever cooked with a recipe card stained in sauce and memories.

This one got me in my feelings. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about how to preserve my own family’s food history, how my grandmother’s cauliflower soup can still stop me in my tracks with just one spoonful, or how my mom’s turkey necks have quietly become my comfort food of choice. These are the recipes that shaped me. They live in my hands, my head, and hopefully soon, in my kids’ memories too. Arnold’s story is a beautiful reminder that it’s not just about what’s on the plate, it’s about who taught you to make it, who you share it with, and how those flavors get passed down like heirlooms. I’m looking forward to the day when my kids ask to learn how to make those dishes, and I’ll be ready, recipe card in hand.

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Transcript

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I sit down with my dear friend, Arnold Myint, whose new book, Family Thai: Bringing the Flavors of Thailand Home, is out now on Abrams Books. He shares his five rules for mastering a family recipe. He talks about the importance of cooking the original dish without adding any of your deviations, that listening to your ancestor’s voice is a great way to guide your hand in the kitchen, and that sharing the story behind any recipe is a great way to honor its legacy. It’s a fantastic conversation with great insights for anyone who owns a restaurant and wants to continue the tradition of their family cooking or anyone who wants to honor their own family legacy in their kitchen at home. So let’s get into the rules.

Arnold, it’s so good to see you. It’s been too long. Thank you so much for making time during your crazy book schedule and sit down for the show. What an honor and a pleasure.

Hey Darin, it’s good to see you too. You’re right. It has been way too long, but you know what? Full circle moment. It’s great to be here.

What I love about your life and your background is that food has always been a huge part of your upbringing and your life. What are the dishes that you remember from your childhood that still inspire you or still speak to you today?

Oh, it’s funny because I work in food and some people might think it’s fancy food. But for me, what turns me on are the things that are so comfortable and more like a timestamp of memories. My mom was always the spokesperson of the restaurant. I wasn’t really raised by the food that we served. I was raised by the food at home. And my dad was a professor and we had the same schedule because he had to get up to go to school and I had to get up. Something that just really puts a smile on my face is he made really great breakfasts for me. The best part of waking up is hearing sauteed onions going into German potato hash browns and a hint of lime lemon juice on some just smashed charred potatoes in a skillet with caramelized onions. And then I would get an egg choice. I would either get a soft boiled egg or I would get a scrambled egg sandwich or a soft fried egg Asian style white Wonder Bread toast still spongy enough to soak up and get mushy in the egg yolk. For me to this day whenever I’m with a group on a vacation rental or I have guests home I’ll just fry an onion just to turn everybody on. I don’t even plan on making food but just start with that and it puts everybody in a good mood.

I love that your dad cooked at home and your parents had this incredible restaurant, International Market, that’s been in Nashville since 1975. You and your sister took it over in 2021. Why was it so important for you and your family to share Thai food with the community?

Well, I had no choice because I was born into it. I think there was a bassinet that said, I know I’m cute, but please don’t touch. Wow. The original hostess of the restaurant. And then I started to create a dinner theater because I was roller skating, giving shows to the guests while they were eating when I was a kid.

Incredible.

Amazing.

It was meant to be, right?

For my mother, it was a means of survival. She was in Nashville in the 70s with my dad trying to acclimate to a culture and society she didn’t know nothing about. She needed some sort of comfort. And I don’t think a ham and biscuit was what her vision of comfort was.

Of course.

Luckily, my dad went to school in upstate New York and had resources and connections in larger cities. So they discovered there were accessible things in larger cities that they had to bring down if they wanted to have the flavors that reminded them of home. Buying in bulk is cheaper.

Sure.

So she needed a way to afford it to where she could eat, but she had a surplus of ingredients. So it was just almost by necessity that she started selling it so she could have free food.

I got it.

So she would buy in bulk and she’s like, well, what do I do? I’m going to open a market. Well, nobody’s buying from the market. They don’t know what to do with it. Well, I’m going to open up a steam table and display the food so people can get samples of it so I can sell it. It was a means of satisfying some homesickness through food unknowingly molding a culture and society of Asian food in the South.

It was pretty special.

It is really special. And you’ve captured their story and the story of the restaurant in your first cookbook, Family Thai: Bringing the Flavors of Thailand Home, which came out October 7th, which is technically your second baby because you have your beautiful daughter, Henley.

Yes.

What of these recipes did you want to pass on from your parents to her?

We’ve known each other for a little bit. And you knew when I was kind of toying with the wanting the child, you just had your baby when we were hanging out. I’m in LA. She was born when my deadline for my book was due. She came about a week and a half early, which wasn’t too dramatic, but just dramatic enough. I was holding her in one hand with a pillow with my computer in my other hand, trying to type my deadline at three in the morning.

I love it.

In terms of the recipes in the book, that was really easy. It really comes from when my mom passed away and we started getting overflow of messages from loyal customers that just loved my mom for 40 plus years. I just knew I had to archive her stuff for everyone.

Of course.

The story was either your mom would bring us in the kitchen and she would teach us, or she came to our house and showed us, or I’m so sad I never got to finish her promise of learning how to make this.

Right.

Being that my sister was in fashion and I was the one in food, it’s my responsibility almost to continue this legacy and archive these recipes for everyone. And in the same breath, I also know my mother would not want me to be stagnant in my career. I needed to cook how I cook with the foundational outline of what this food should be in her mind. Basically, I felt like I was given the green light to elevate what she had laid out for me to begin with.

Sure.

In the book, it’s mom’s version, not the Thai way, but mom’s Thai way, plus my Thai way on top of that.

Which is amazing.

Yeah.

Preserving that legacy of recipes, especially when your family is centered around food is really important. Even having the courage and the conviction to start cooking your family’s recipes takes a lot, which I learned from cooking from my grandmother’s and my own mother’s recipes.

Yeah.

Which is why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules for mastering your family recipe. And the very first rule is probably the hardest one because it really is about getting started and sticking with it. What is your first rule?

Rule number one is to commit to the original recipe and not deviate from it for a while.

Mm-hmm.

It’s tough.

Yes.

Baby bird is taught and encouraged to fly out of the nest and move on.

With its own style of flying.

With its own flight.

Yeah.

When I was thinking about writing a cookbook, long before I actually got the cookbook deal, I was starting to archive recipes, not knowing where it would go.

Of course.

So I remember this one day, I called my mother and I was like, I need Yaya’s shumai recipe. Yaya is Chinese for grandma. We’ve served this recipe for four decades at the restaurant. My mom was on the phone and she was going through it and I was trying to dissect it because she doesn’t have chef’s language, right?

Of course.

A little this, but a little that. And I’m trying to understand and transcribe it. And right before we hung up, she goes, hey, hey, hey. And I could hear her calling me back to the phone. She goes, please, whatever you do, do not change this recipe. For many reasons, it’s perfect. Be good. I love you. Three days later, she passes away unexpectedly.

I’m so sorry.

That was our last conversation was that recipe.

So not to go there.

No, of course.

So for me, it’s very special. And for me, the aunties in the kitchen at the restaurant that have been making this dumpling since before I was born and have the ritual on every Monday as we make 2,000 dumplings, we’re not deviating from this recipe ever. And when I make it, I know that’s the reason why.

Mm.

And people can taste it. The generations of people that come into the restaurant to eat it, they have shared this with their children who now have children. It’s become a staple in so many people’s lives, including my own. I kind of have burnt out on eating them, but every time I go back to that one bite on Dumpling Day, it’s magic.

It transports me.

That transportation is something that I always feel when I’m cooking one of my grandmother’s recipes because it feels like she’s talking to me or talking me through it as I cook, which ties directly into your rule number two.

That transportation is something that I always feel when I’m cooking one of my grandmother’s recipes because it feels like she’s talking to me or talking me through it as I cook, which ties directly into your rule number two.

Rule number two is to cook with your ancestor’s voice. It’s about muscle memory. It’s about channeling the voice in your head that taught you how to make that recipe. And for me, my mom is always there, especially when I’m unsure or second-guessing myself. I can hear her going, “No, no, no, that’s not how you do it,” or “Add a little more sugar,” or “Don’t overcook the noodles.” Even though she’s not physically here, her energy, her wisdom, and her taste are always guiding me. And that gives me a sense of comfort and confidence when I’m cooking something so personal.

That’s one of the biggest joys of cooking something from your family’s history—the comfort and connection it gives you. And now that you’re a parent, you’re starting that next generation of memories and meals, which leads us to rule number three.

Rule number three is to share the story behind the recipe. Food is great, but food with a story? That’s next level. When you tell someone where a dish came from, who taught it to you, or what it meant to your family, that dish becomes something more than just something you eat. It becomes emotional. It becomes memorable. It carries the weight and warmth of history. I always say, if you’re going to cook for someone, give them the full experience. Tell them why it matters. That’s the way to honor your family and the recipe at the same time.

That’s something we talk a lot about on this show. The why behind the what. And food is such a powerful vehicle for stories, for keeping legacies alive, which brings us to rule number four.

Rule number four is to write it down—but only after you’ve cooked it several times. Recipes evolve. Measurements change. Your taste grows. But you want to document the version that feels the most true to the spirit of the original. So don’t write it down after your first try. Wait. Cook it a few times. Let the muscle memory kick in. Then, when you’ve nailed the flavor and the feel, put it to paper. That way you preserve it for future generations in the most authentic way.

Which is what you’ve done with this book. You’ve honored your family’s story, your mother’s voice, and also added your own flavor—literally and figuratively. And that brings us to your fifth and final rule.

Rule number five is to teach it forward. Don’t let it stop with you. Teach your kid. Teach your niece. Teach your neighbor. It doesn’t have to be formal. Just invite them into your kitchen. Let them chop. Let them stir. Let them taste. And tell them why it matters. That’s how you make sure the recipe lives on—not just in a book, but in the people who keep cooking it.

Arnold, this was such a wonderful conversation. Congratulations on Family Thai. Where can people get the book?

It’s available everywhere books are sold, online and in your local bookstore. And follow me on Instagram @arnoldmyint for more cooking tips, stories, and behind-the-scenes looks at the recipes.

Amazing. Thank you for sharing your rules and your story. I can’t wait to cook some of these dishes at home—and maybe get one of those dumplings from the steam table in Nashville.

I’ll save you one, Darin. Thanks again for having me.

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This week on Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with Josh Donald and Kelly Kozak, the duo behind Bernal Cutlery in San Francisco. For twenty years, they’ve built a world-class knife shop rooted in craftsmanship, curiosity, and community. What started with a few sharpening stones has evolved into a creative hub for makers, master craftsmen, and cooks alike. In our conversation, they share their Five Rules for Staying Teachable, which include staying humble, opening yourself to new ideas, and moving forward even when you think you’ve mastered your craft. It’s a reminder that no matter how far you’ve come, there’s always room to grow if you stay curious.

There’s something about hearing Josh and Kelly talk about staying open—after two decades in the game, that reminded me why I still love doing what I do. I’ve built shows, books, podcasts, and brands, but I’m still learning every day. I still want to get better. Still want to be pushed. Whether it’s cooking, writing, or parenting, I’m always searching for that edge, that feeling that there’s more out there to master if I lean in and stay teachable. Their story isn’t just inspiring, it’s grounding. A reminder that growth isn’t a milestone, it’s a mindset.

Photo by Molly DeCoudreaux

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Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I sit down with two icons from the world of knife making, Josh Donald and Kelly Kozak, who are co-founders and co-owners of Bernal Cutlery, which is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year. They join me today to share their five rules for staying teachable. They talk about their continued practice of sharing knowledge, how they keep their original intent in their daily mindset, and that the only way to grow is to keep pushing yourself into uncomfortable territory. This is a great conversation for anyone who is interested in learning a skill, running a small business, or anyone who is looking for inspiration to keep learning new things every day. So let’s get into the rules.

Josh and Kelly, so great to see you two again. Congratulations, 20 years of vernal cutlery. Always a pleasure to sit down and chat with you too. Thanks for having us. Thank you so much for having us. You started the business two decades ago, sharpening knives, which is an artistic skill unto itself. When you got started, how did you learn those initial skills? What was your mindset back then?

There was making ends meet and there was having fun and they were kind of both interplaying with each other. Initially it was, hey we have 40 bucks let’s get this business going a little bit, bought a second stone to sharpen with. And then it was, hey it sucks only sharpening with two stones, let’s try and find a little machine that will work with this. And then it was, hey we’ve got 80 bucks that we could bring down to the flea market and see about buying some knives to resell.

I just remember it so much differently because he was really frustrated with that learning process. And I remember him staying up all night, sharpening a pair of pruners and a lot of, how are we going to ever make money at this? I remember you telling me to stop going to the flea market at one point too. You’re like, can you just skip it? Why don’t you go later in the morning? But it was like, no, man, you got to get there at 5am. You don’t find the good s**t if you get there at 10. Yeah. That frustration, especially early on, could keep you from going forward.

But you go from sharpening knives and refurbishing knives to getting the idea to make your own. What was that deciding factor to start making your own knives? What were some of your earlier mistakes that you had to push through? Oh. We’re still pushing through them. Yeah. The thing with pushing and with doing new stuff is that you have to get really comfortable with doing things badly. Especially if you’ve gotten used to doing something well. If you’re doing new stuff, if you’re trying to push it, you will find yourself doing something you don’t know how to do. None of this is anything that we’ve done 100% by ourselves either. Whether that’s having people on our crew that we’ve done this with, whether that’s reaching out to outside help in one way or another. Being stubborn and not being too stubborn, it’s a funny formula.

What I love about how much you guys have done is that you continue to teach and give back to those who want to learn. Why is it so important to you to pass along what you’ve learned and to teach the next generation of knife makers? For me, I have a real general mantra is that I can’t keep what I have unless I give it away. There’s this sense of generosity, kind of all the senses of the word generosity, right? Generosity with allowing people to change and grow. Generosity with maybe not knowing a full story or a full aspect of a process. Or generosity with, I see that you’re a budding line cook. Let me try to hook up a nice deal with these three things for you so that you can get started at your job. All the senses of generosity.

I really enjoy teaching because I didn’t have anybody to teach me when I was learning how to sharpen. And there were certain things that took me a really long time to figure out that I’m able to share with people in my classes that makes me happy to be like, hey, just so you know, if you do this, you’re going to skip over two years of trial and error. Right. And then there’s just the sharing of knowledge with our customers about just dorky stuff if they’re interested. Then I think then people can kind of get another sense of appreciation for old stuff and they’ll be excited to see what I found. Or they might think that you’re being too generous. Usually I can tell when they’re trying to inch away.

For those who haven’t been lucky enough to be in the store or learn directly from you, I’m really excited for you to share your five rules for staying teachable, which can be applied to either knife making, knife sharpening, or just life in general. You have picked such an elevated craft. Your first rule gives you this mental approach to let you really have fun with it. What’s your rule number one? Rule number one is don’t take yourself too damn seriously. And it’s actually rule number 62 in the recovery community. It’s a very well-known rule. Having the option to be wrong is always really important with learning. You kind of stop learning if you stop questioning things a bit.

Outside of the main categories of what we do here, we also run a store. Yes. We are a small business. Of course. This rule is really important to me just in the context of working in a community with people and trying to do our best work, to be our best selves when we show up at the door. And what this rule means for me is to like, don’t forget the joy. Don’t forget these are the things that really matter: creating a great place to work, creating good products that we’re putting out there in the world, good experiences, and that we’re able to maintain good relationships with each other.

As you have grown and you have the store, you have a reputation, you’ve become a leader in the industry, it’s sometimes easy to forget where it all started. But remembering your origins is a guiding principle of your rule number two. That’s right. Shorthand in Japanese is Shoshin, beginner’s mind. Remembering what it was like to learn the stuff in the first place, bringing yourself back to your original intention, remembering the learning process and that you are still part of it. And then also folding in the perspective of having succeeded at something when I’m trying something that is potentially not going to be easy and that I will have missteps. It allows me to be a little bit kinder to myself if I don’t get it 100% right the first time or the second. Even if it seems like, oh, 20 years is a long time, it’s like, nah, 20 years really isn’t. A lot of these things people have been working on for hundreds and hundreds of years, and it’s all an ongoing process, right?

Being in any profession for 20 years, someone might immediately write off people just getting started or those younger than them as not knowing anything and not listening to them. But I’ve always felt that fresh perspectives keep you learning and keep pushing your own ideas forward, which ties directly into rule number three. Learning from young people and people who are beginners when you are not is f*****g bomb. I wrote that rule and I wrote it thinking about the teenagers that I’m currently living with. But specifically to our industry, sometimes we have people that come through and do a stage with us and then they go off and open up their own operation. You’ll see them get something or get good at something and then it’s contagious. The joy and the confidence boost that they get is contagious.

Being able to appreciate what people are good at and not feel threatened by it is really important to you as a business person, as a craftsperson. Being able to be stoked by people getting something right and seeing somebody do well brings to mind that we each have different things that we’re good at. Maybe if I don’t hate somebody that’s doing that kind of work, I can watch them work and learn something from them. That openness to learning, having that flexibility is a great way to keep moving your own skills forward, which is a big part of your rule number four, which also does dovetail with rule number three.

What’s your fourth rule? Teach to be teachable. For me, when I’m teaching people how to sharpen, I have to put myself in their shoes and I have to think about what would it sound like for them to hear what I’m saying? So how do I better say what I want them to do? It helps me to stay in that mind frame of somebody learning. That resonates with me with teaching people how to sell at the counter. Whenever we hire somebody, inevitably, we get this almost deer in the headlight where I have to remind people, you’re never going to get to be at a place of being the expert behind the counter. And we don’t really want necessarily experts behind the counter. We just want you to be an expert of your own self and your own experience. And that’s a good place to start to learn.

And then when you start from that place behind the counter, you’re going to pick and choose things that you do actually know about, whether it’s the recipe in the cookbook, in the book section, or a knife that you own at home. And you’re going to be able to build off of that. And then you’re going to be excited to learn rather than intimidated and afraid of saying the wrong thing.

Given how much you two are doing as knife makers, small business owners, knife sharpeners, teaching everyone. Don’t forget parents. And parents. You stepped on it. And the most important thing being parents. Yeah. That explains the teenagers that we live with better. Your time is extremely limited and it would be so easy for you just to stay in the lane that you know works, that brings in money, that keeps the business afloat, that keeps you attentive to your teenage children.

But your fifth and final rule preaches the benefits of trying something out of your comfort zone. What is your rule number five? Experiment and do things that you are not good at. The business has always been in a certain kind of expansion mode. It never reached a certain place where we’re like, hey, this is great. Let’s just kind of hit cruise control and we’ll do this like this. Mostly it’s by necessity because having a small business... In San Francisco, probably in a lot of places in the country, the broad majority of small business owners probably share our experience, which is that you’re riding a shark that needs to keep swimming to be able to get oxygen and it needs to keep being fed. It’s something that you can’t just sit still with.

We definitely hit a place a while back where we realized if we just coast from here, then we will topple under the weight of itself. We did get to this place where we also felt like we were mid-career and like had a whole lot to say. We had so much to say about what we had learned, our experiences, and then we had so much more that we wanted to do.

It also has grown out of this genuine sense of enthusiasm, not just from us, but our crew too. So like people are finding things that we want to carry and then we’re researching it and then we’re doing all the testing and the tasting and all of that stuff. We’re prototyping different things. I think that all our prototypes come out pretty good, but as to whether they’re economical to make, that’s the other part that we have to fit into it. Now we’re just finding ourselves fundraising to stand up a manufacturing operation that actually can do a large amount of stuff. And we could actually have a volume of things.

We’re not looking to do very one of a kind bespoke kind of knife making. We’re looking at doing the kind of production knife making that integrates skilled handwork and industrial process. And that’s been the backbone of the major knife making centers of the world. That’s what we’re kind of trying to bring back here in San Francisco. And we’re wanting to do that in conversation with all of the folks that we’ve been building relationships with in Germany and France and Japan and here in the States. Yeah, it’s exciting, but it is doing something new. It is really exciting and it’s so incredible that you continue to push yourself 20 years after you’ve sharpened your first knife.

If people want to come to the store or to see what you’re working on, or I will presume get on a waiting list to get their own knives, where can they go? BernalCutlery.com. We have a couple shops in San Francisco. We have one at the Ferry Building and we have one in the Mission District. We’re one of the few owner operators here on the Valencia Corridor. No waiting list necessary if you just want to come in and say hi. Just come say hi. Hopefully I can come and say hi in person very soon. We would love that. Josh and Kelly, thank you again for the time. So great to see you. It’s great talking with you. And it was a fabulous exercise to have to make five rules.

At first, I wasn’t quite sure. I was like, we’re either going to come up with three or we’re going to come up with 20. I like this exercise a lot. Thank you so much for a great conversation.

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This week on Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with San Diego chef Tara Monsod to talk about one of our shared favorite topics: how to travel the world with food as the focus. Fresh off a trip to Japan and the Philippines, Tara shares her Five Rules for How to Travel & Eat Like a Chef on Vacation, covering everything from researching spots that locals love, to trusting a side-street ramen line, to balancing Michelin meals with late-night street carts. Whether you’re a chef planning your first real vacation or someone just trying to make their next trip tastier, this chat is a good guide for how to turn every bite into a deeper connection with the place you’re in.

Food is always the anchor for how I travel. It’s not just where I eat, it’s how I learn about the people, the rhythm of the city, the culture. I love the chase: the deep dives into local blogs, DM threads with chefs and friends, the obsessive spreadsheet with an itinerary built around breakfast, lunch, snacks, and dinner. When you take the time to really dig in, you’re rewarded with more than just good meals. You get stories, context, and flavors that stick with you long after the trip ends.

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Transcription

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I sit down with one of my favorite people in the culinary scene, Tara Monsod, who’s the executive chef at Animae and Le Coq, both in San Diego. She recently returned from her adventures in the Philippines and Japan, and she shares her five rules for how to travel and eat like a chef on vacation. She talks about the importance of doing one’s research, how to strike up a conversation with someone who works at a restaurant that you love, and how keeping your eyes open while walking the streets of a new city might just land you the best meal on your trip. It is a great guide for anybody who wants to make food the focal point of their next adventure in the world. So let’s get into the rules.

Tara, so great to see you again. Always a pleasure to sit down and chat. How’s everything been? Everything is great. Sandy was perfect weather right now. Yeah, everything’s good. Just busy in the labs. Just finished one with Cato not that long ago. Yes. Yes, it was honestly a great day. What I like about your approach to living is that you work really hard and then you also travel. And when you travel, food is the main driver of how you approach your adventures. Why does a city’s culinary landscape dictate your decisions?

Who doesn’t travel for food? I mean, I don’t know, but sure. Yes, there are people out there. I’m just kidding. It’s just a good reflection of the people in the city. If there’s a lot of diversity in food and a lot of options for food, it’s the best way to experience the culture. Other people who may be transplant in those cultures. So when you go to other cities, it’s nice to just engulf yourself in all of those flavors as a chef and just kind of see what people are doing in the culinary world.

You recently got back from the Philippines and Japan, which are two of the biggest culinary worlds out there. What were some of the highlights? How did you even begin to get into what you wanted to do and where you wanted to eat in the city? Oh, my gosh. I mean, it’s really overwhelming when you’re going into a city, especially so compact like Manila and Japan. One of the first things I really do is see what people are talking about. Michelin guides are a good way to start what local bloggers are saying and then kind of go through a black hole of seeing where people are eating and what people are talking about and what’s exciting.

In Japan, the standards of what is good. Imagine the best restaurants, some of the best Japanese restaurants here. And then that is the starting level of every other Japanese restaurant in Japan. I was geeking out, man. There’s food everywhere. And not only that, it’s just executed the best way they can with a lot of respect. People are generally sitting and enjoying their meal. And it’s just such a great experience. It could be it’s from a 7-Eleven or a bento box place in the subway to a Michelin dinner or a sushi omakase. No matter what I had, it was delicious. Maybe I’m like a little... high off of just being in Japan, but I generally enjoyed just the attention to detail. For me as a chef, it’s just so appreciated.

I remember the first time I went to Tokyo, it was with my wife for a honeymoon and I got so overwhelmed with just how many options there were. My buddy who spent a long time there said, you have to treat it like you’re going back just so you can enjoy where you eat and where you go. How do you not get overwhelmed, especially when you’re mixing personal eating, but also professional research?

It’s very easy to get overwhelmed because you only have so much room in your stomach. You just have to know that whatever meal you’re going to pick, it’s going to be good. And it’s worth it. Sometimes when I think I have it figured out of where I’m going to eat, I’ll pass by a place, see a long line. And I’ll be like, what is it? There’s a bunch of locals standing in line. I’m going to stand in line. Whatever it is, please give it to me. Two ramen meals, actually, I had were the best ramen that I had in the city. That rule always works for me.

A lot of people can follow someone like you on Instagram and think that, oh, well, you’re a chef. There’s just an automatic list that gets handed to you when you go to a new country. I know from experience, it’s a lot of work, which is why I’m so excited that you’re here today to share your five rules for how to travel and eat like a chef on vacation. And your first rule is all about research. Yes. What’s your rule number one?

Look at what the locals are saying, whether it’s local papers, local magazines, credible foodie. You can kind of filter out some people who do it for the aesthetics and some people do it for the food. If you’re somebody who dines out a lot like I do, you can tell from pictures and their lists, whether it relates to you as what you’re looking for is dining. The power of social media is great. You can literally go through different lists and then go through a black hole that’ll link you from one place to the other. If somebody is eating somewhere and is public and you see their trend of where they eat, then you can go through their list and it’s from people who actually ate there. Then you can actually see what they ordered, maybe have an idea of which direction that you want to go, whether it’s all hype or whether it’s really legit food.

I was just having that conversation the other day trying to explain to people the difference between food influencers and people who I trust who have good taste in food. What you find those people, that’s who you follow and that’s who you get your recommendations from. Right. But sometimes it’s just about literally being on the street and seeing where the locals are hanging out, which ties directly into your rule number two. If you see a room full of locals in there and not a bunch of transplants or tourists, that means it’s a great place. Yes. That means if the locals are eating, it’s usually a good sign that that place is pretty legitimate.

For me, in multiple cities like Mexico City, Philippines, Manila, a lot of those places ended up giving me some of the best meals I’ve had. We had a long day. We went to Tokyo Disney because I wanted to experience Disney again for the first time. Of course. Wow. Yeah. Sure enough, duck ramen, solid freaking bowl, man. What they do is it was a ramen that’s only made from duck, green onions, and water. They simmer it for hours. I kid you not, one of the cleanest bowls of ramen I’ve ever had. Two pieces of duck, really solid noodles, clear broth. And then they had extra duck on the side. It was just very, very satisfying. That and a beer. I’m chilling.

Sometimes those side streets offer the most surprising meal. What I’ve also found in my travels is that while the big cities are great and those always have well-researched lists and you can always get recommendations there, traveling to the outskirts can get you some of the best food on the road, which aligns with your rule number three. Well, number three is exploring smaller neighborhoods off the beaten path. A lot of people might stick to the major cities or where the tourists at, which is fine. There’s some things that are popular as they should be because they’re awesome. But the locals, usually they aren’t in the middle of the city. Maybe they might be outside of the city. It’s like New York to Brooklyn. Every city has that. Tokyo is great and concentrated, but there’s a lot of great things in Osaka. There’s a lot of great things in Kyoto. Same thing with Manila. Manila is so concentrated that it’s hard to get anywhere. But when you start to go on the outskirts of the Philippines where it’s a little more rural, a little more quiet, you experience the city and the food in a different way.

Once you get a chance to experience good food in a city, you start to trust the people who are eating there and the people who work there. Your rule number four encourages people looking for their next good meal to do this. If you’re at a restaurant that you’re really excited about and you’re just sitting there at the end of meals and you’re like, wow, that was a solid meal. I start to talk to staff. Yeah. I talk to servers, the chef. I love sitting at a counter bar, just chopping it up with the people who are cooking in front of me and be like, where do you eat? Where do you go after work? Where’s the industry spot? Where do you go have a beer? What’s a good deal? Especially when it comes to late night, they are really great at giving you great recommendations because I can tell you that I’m definitely one of those people will ask me. I’m like yeah i got a list for you you’re like tell me what you’re looking for boom boom boom and sure enough if you’re guests in the city and you have five spots that somebody’s gone through because they live here but for you you can handle all five in one vacation.

People could be intimidated to talk to waiters or servers or chefs or busboys or hosts but when someone sees that you’ve made the effort to eat in their restaurant and enjoy the meal they’re very willing to give you tips about where they love to eat. We’re in the business of hospitality and it’s our job to talk about food. If anything, we might think that we don’t want to bore you with our list. If you express some interest and you’re generally asking where the industry people go, we think that either you love food or you’re in the industry. It’s a good signal to be like, yeah, what do you want to know? I got you. Just don’t be afraid to ask. What’s the worst thing? They say a couple of things, but it’s better than zero than what you had before.

Absolutely. That openness to trust people and to do the research, to dig into the lists, should paint a broad spectrum of what the city has to offer. And your fifth and final rule talks about how someone who’s trying to enjoy the city and understand it from a culinary point of view should be open to doing this. Highs and lows. Experience a Michelin dinner if you really enjoy fine dining. I suggest getting at least one of those in and then go to a local food cart that is doing the best of one thing and they’ve been doing it forever and just getting a bite of that.

Sometimes I’ll go to places where I’ll get an appetizer and then I’ll go to have a second dinner and get three things there. And then have a third dinner or a late night thing and get a snack on the street. Sometimes it’s fun not to commit to a whole restaurant. Yes. Now that is very extreme chef behavior. It’s crazy, yes. That’s at the top of the mountain.

I tell my cooks all the time, it doesn’t have to cost a lot to have a great meal. It does not. Get a $2 taco on the corner or go to a fine dining experience like I did in Mexico City. I ate at Quintanil for lunch, had a three-hour experience. And by six o’clock, I was at Maizajo getting a taco. Yes. It’s extreme, but if you’re a person that loves traveling for food, I don’t think it’s a bad itinerary at all.

Okay. No, and I’ve been to a handful of tasting menus where I needed a hot dog or a taco on the street immediately because I was still hungry when I walked out. It’s not as rare as one would think.

Tara, thank you so much for sharing your five rules for how to eat and travel like a chef on a vacation. If people want to follow along with your adventures or come check out the restaurants, where can they go?

You can visit anime on Instagram and locoque on Instagram. My username is haramonsad on Instagram as well. Come check us out. Come to San Diego. One’s in La Jolla. One’s in downtown. And I’d love to see you. And maybe I could be that person for you to talk about San Diego food. I’m sure you have the best stops. I will absolutely pick you up on that. Congrats on everything. And I hope to share a fine dining meal and a street food bite with you very soon. Looking forward to it.

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If you’ve ever stared at the butcher counter like it was a final exam you didn’t study for, this one’s for you. In this episode, I sit down with Mark and Brian Lobel, legendary New York butchers, father and son, and sixth-generation meat experts. They’ve turned their family craft into a masterclass on meat and share their Five Rules for how to Never Be Afraid of Cooking Meat Again. From doling out advice at their iconic Lobel’s butcher shop on Madison Avenue to teaching people how to pick the right cut, the Lobels don’t just sell meat, they teach you how to respect it.

Learning how to pick and prepare meat is one of those quiet turning points in your cooking life. It’s where confidence meets instinct. You start to understand what you’re buying, how it feels, how it cooks, and what happens when you give it time and care. Even after years in the kitchen, there’s always something new to learn, some little tip or trick that changes everything. That’s what I love about talking with Mark and Brian Lobel. When you get advice from a family that’s been butchering for six generations, it’s not just about meat, it’s about tradition, patience, and craft. Listening to them feels like being invited behind the counter, shown the ropes, and reminded that great cooking starts with curiosity and respect for what’s in front of you.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

Today, I am joined by Mark and Brian Lobel, father and son, legendary butchers in New York City whose family has been serving and selling meat to the public for over six generations.

They share their five rules for how to never be afraid of cooking meat again. They talk about how setting yourself up for success starts with selecting the right cut of meat, that when you’re using high quality beef, simplicity is key, and how to ensure the perfect cook every time by taking out the guesswork.

It is a real masterclass from a family who’s made it their life mission and business to know everything there is about meat. So let’s get into the rules.

Mark and Brian, it’s so nice to meet you. Been a longtime fan of your butcher shop. Thanks for sitting down with me, especially right after Labor Day. I’m glad you had time to catch your breath.

Thanks. It’s a pleasure to meet you and a pleasure to be with you.

When I think about family businesses, being a butcher or owning a butcher shop always comes to top of mind. Why is butchering the type of profession that gets passed down from generation to generation?

That’s exactly true. It does get passed down. And that’s because when your father is a butcher at the age of eight or nine or 10, you grow up in the butcher shop and you grow up taking care of customers and get a real education on how to cut meat and how to prepare meat. The whole retail mentality behind being in the butcher shop and selling. You generally become a butcher because your father was a butcher. Your uncle was a butcher. Somebody in your family was a butcher. There’s a lineage there.

There’s also a lot of passion behind it. It was really all I knew growing up. Even from a young age, it was like, okay, my dad went to work, and when my dad went to work, he was also there with my uncle. And then he was there with my grandpa. He was there with my cousin. So there was that camaraderie and family bond that was always instilled in us at a young age. We’re such a close family. We’re always all together. So business is always being discussed. And when you’re young, it’s so cool to think about, wow, one day I’m going to be a part of this and then I’ll be a part of that conversation. That also adds an element to it as well.

Having a great butcher is one of those things in life that people often brag about. Why is it such a special relationship to have? What makes it so important to living the good life?

You really develop a bond with your customers because food is so important. We’re there for recipe questions. We’re there for, “I want to create this dish—so what kind of meat should we use?” I think it’s the wealth of information that butchers have. We’re in a unique situation being where we’ve been for so many years as well. A lot of our customers have become really like family. They’re there because their parents shopped there, and they’re there because their grandparents shopped there. It’s such a personalized relationship between customers and us, and even our other butchers, that just makes it so unique and so special.

I’m not sure there’s another business out there where you have the relationships with the customers the way we do. Those relationships are so important. They just feel like extended family.

And I know that your family started raising beef in Austria in the 1840s and then made its way to America in the 1910s. And you’ve been selling ever since. Is there anything you practice or share with your customers that you’ve been doing since day one?

It’s sharing the information that we have and the knowledge base that we have to be able to educate our customers on how to cook. I mean, if you call the Madison Avenue store, you get that customer service. People are really looking for customer service.

Just to piggyback off on what my dad was saying, to explain the difference in quality—what you’re getting here versus what you’re getting somewhere else—how important the quality of the beef is to your eating experience is something that we provide to them as well.

Being able to take generations of knowledge and distill it to share it with your customers is such a beautiful thing. And it’s why I’m so excited to have you both on to share your five rules for how to never be afraid of cooking meat again.

Now, it’s very easy to see the end result of a dish—a beautiful roast comes out, steak, a whole chicken—and be intimidated about how someone got that perfectly cooked piece of meat on the plate. But as you both know, the entire process starts with selecting the right cut. What is your rule number one?

The first rule would be pick out the best possible piece of meat that you can at the grocery store or the butcher shop. There’s a method to this madness. There are three main grades of beef: prime, select, and choice. Wherever possible, you want to be able to get a USDA prime piece of meat. So important. Not every place will be able to sell prime. Lobel’s, we have only prime. Then you go for choice. And then if you can’t find choice, you go for select.

When you go over to the counter, when you go over to the case, the average person’s in the supermarket and they’re not sure what to look for. First, you want to look at the marbling—and those are the fine streaks of fat that run throughout the meat. You also want to look at the fat on the meat. So if you’re looking at the outside fat on the steak, you want it to be milky white. You don’t want the fat to be grayish in color. Also, the color of the meat should be red. Sometimes you’ll see a grayish tone and that could indicate that the meat is a little older than you want it to be. It won’t be bad for you, but it’s not going to be as fresh.

If you’re going to be looking for lamb or veal, and you look for a little red on the back of the bone, that determines youth in the animal. Younger animals will eat a little bit better. If you’re looking for some lamb chops, looking for some veal chops, if you look hard enough, you can find some marbling. Go for that. Go for the marbling. It’ll help. It’ll make a better eating experience.

Sometimes it can be a very intimidating experience. You see people, they’re pacing back and forth. They’re on their phone. They don’t know what to do. Don’t be afraid to ask the butcher at the butcher shop. Don’t be afraid to ask somebody at the supermarket for help. Don’t be afraid to ask somebody next to you who’s also buying something for help.

Good point. I’ve seen my dad helping people in public before when he’s just looking.

I’ve been guilty of that also. Never be afraid to ask your butcher: “This is what I like. This is what my wife and I would like to have for dinner tonight. Can you pick out a great steak for us?” People really need to just be more comfortable asking for help. That’s what we’re here for.

Most people can agree on selecting the best quality of meat to set yourself up for success. But once you get that cut home, then it comes down to personal preference when you’re preparing to cook. What’s your rule number two?

When you have such a high-end steak that’s going to provide so much flavor naturally, less is more. Keep it simple. Easy. Olive oil. Black pepper. Kosher salt. Over-seasoning and getting too excited is very, very easy. And we’re all guilty of it—including me, including my dad. We’ve all gotten lost in the moment.

Lost in the sauce.

When I get my meat home, I like to pat it dry before I season it or marinate it. I won’t wrap it. I’ll actually leave it open in the refrigerator. That whole process of leaving it open and that drying process, putting it in the refrigerator after you season it, will help you get a better crust after you cook it.

Marinating also—a lot of fun. Whether it’s chicken, whether you use a barbecue sauce, whether you use a salad dressing. We have a blast marinating our beef kebab, our chicken kebabs. My dad is a wizard behind the grill, so he’s always coming up with new ways.

Nobody goes near the grill in my house except…

That’s a lot of fun.

No one could ever ask me where I learned to grill because if I’m not getting a chance to do it…

Oh, please.

When I first started cooking meat, there was this method about touching different parts of your hand to understand the doneness of what you were cooking. But what I found is that it was a lot of guesswork and I ruined a lot of good cuts of meat. Your third rule talks about using this instrument to ensure cooking perfection every time.

You should never guess on doneness of meat because there’s nothing worse than having a great piece of meat and you overcook it. Using an instant read thermometer is the best tool. If you think you should cook something for 50 minutes, you’re going by a recipe—an hour, an hour and 10 minutes—15, 20 minutes before, you can probe it and put the instant read thermometer in to see where you are.

Everybody’s oven is different. Sometimes people will put something in the oven and they’ll open the oven to look and they can lose five or 10 minutes and not even realize because they’re glaring at the piece of meat. It’s not an exact science.

But remember, when you take the piece of meat out, if you’re looking for rare at 120 degrees, just realize that when you take something out of the oven, it’s going to go up five points also. So you have to build that in.

I can’t stress the importance of not being afraid to check it. Still to this day, if I’m cooking something new, I’ll call my dad and I’ll say, “Dad, question for you—how long am I putting this in for?”

Even when he knows the answer, he still calls me.

I have to double check because if I overcook the meat—

That’s trouble.

Or then undercook it and then put it back in and overcook it—

That’s the worst. That’s one of the worst cooking experiences anybody could ever have, undercooking and then overcooking at the same time.

There’s always that moment when you pull a perfectly cooked piece of meat out of the oven or off the stove and you want to rip in right away. But your rule number four talks about the importance of waiting to make sure that your fantastic cook doesn’t go to waste.

Rule number four is to let the meat rest. After you take it out of the oven, you put it on top of the stove top or on the counter. Take it out of the roasting pan and put it onto a butcher block where you’re going to slice it because there’s still a lot of heat coming up from the bottom. You’re letting the meat rest.

If you slice it right away, you’re going to notice a lot of the juice will run out. And you don’t want that. If you wait—not too long—five minutes on a steak, 10 to 15 on a roast, like if you’re doing a prime rib or a larger roast, you’ll notice that instead of the juices running out onto the carving board, they’ll stay and redistribute in the roast.

Really important. A lot of people don’t follow that rule, but it’s a good one to have.

You’ve selected the right cut. You’ve prepped to your preference. You’ve cooked perfectly and you’ve given the meat time to rest. And your fifth and final rule ensures that when it comes time to carve, you are slicing with perfection.

When it comes down to slicing and carving the meat properly, it’s really important.

The most important.

You want to have a really sharp knife. That’s really important. Have it on a cutting board. Do not have it on a plate. Some people just kind of wing it.

You’d be surprised.

I get it—maybe they don’t want to wash the cutting board.

It’s worth it. And you have to slice it super thin. The difference between thin and thick could change your whole eating experience.

If you have a good prime piece of meat—which everyone is not going to be able to find—if you cut a little thicker, you’ll be fine. If you’re going to find something choice or select, you want to really try to cut it as thin as you can.

The important thing is when you’re slicing, you want to cut it against the grain. You’ll see the lines in the piece of meat running in one direction. You want to cut it against the grain. And the meat—whatever you’re carving—will be so much more delicious, so much better.

Sometimes in the butcher shop, people are so intimidated, they’ll say, “Can you score—make the lines in the meat—so I can follow the guideline after it’s cooked?”

I never heard that.

Especially brisket. If you cut brisket the wrong way, it becomes stringy. You cut pastrami the wrong way—it becomes stringy. You cut a roast or any steak, it makes a huge difference.

Don’t be afraid to ask that. As a butcher, that is not something that you’re going to see a butcher huff and puff or roll their eyes at. That is something we are more than happy to do.

And I’m sure every butcher is more than happy to do because at the end of the day, you’re doing your job because you want to make their eating experience as great as possible. And I’ve found that every time that I’ve asked, they’ve never been condescending. If anything, they’ve been happy to share their knowledge.

Definitely.

Make sure that I don’t waste a piece of meat and that I honor what was killed for consumption.

They want to help, even if they can’t be at home with you.

That’s exactly right.

Thank you, guys. Congratulations. Six generations.

Thank you, Darin.

Thank you so much.

It’s truly incredible. If people want to visit the store or order online because the holiday seasons are here and I am already thinking about where I’m going to get my brisket...

Oh yeah.

Where can they go? How can they shop with you?

Prime rib, brisket—they can go to our Madison Avenue store at 1096 Madison Avenue. We’ve been there since 1954. Or they can visit our website at lobels.com or our new store at Rockefeller Center, which is Lobel’s Original, where we’re doing great steak sandwiches and just great protein like we do at Yankee Stadium.

I can’t wait to be back in New York and just swing into the store for a sandwich and for a perfect slice of meat.

We look forward to having you there.

Thank you so much.

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This week on Five Rules for the Good Life, I’m joined by photographer, content creator, and newly minted cookbook author, Lindsey Baruch. Her debut book Something Delicious is a love letter to everyday cooking, filled with flavor-forward recipes and the kind of real-life strategies that make dinner actually doable. We dive into her Five Rules for Grocery Shopping that Make Dinners Easy: From Post-it notes on the fridge to forgiving your fishmonger, her approach is equal parts practical, personal, and built on a deep love of food, farmers’ markets, & feeding yourself well.

I still remember my mom walking me through the grocery store the day before I left for college, showing me how to pick a ripe melon and avoid the sad lettuce in the back of the case. It wasn’t formal, but it stuck with me, and it’s probably why I still love the ritual of shopping for food. These days, it’s the LA farmers’ market that lights me up. There’s nothing better than being surrounded by peak-season produce and letting the ingredients tell you what to cook. Whether it’s radicchio or fresh figs or some unique squash I’ve never seen before, that moment of inspiration, that little spark at the stand is where the meal starts.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I sit down with content creator and photographer, Lindsey Baruch, whose new book Something Delicious: 100 Recipes for Everyday Cooking is out now. She shares her five rules for grocery shopping that makes dinner easy. We chat about how to organize your fridge through personal notes to yourself, how having a plan is important, but how being open to pivoting can make a meal magic, and that shopping for yourself doesn’t start in the grocery store—it actually starts at home. It is a great way to set yourself up for success, whether it’s for dinner or any meal that you cook at home. So let’s get into the rules.

Lindsey, it’s so nice to meet you. Congratulations on your beautiful first cookbook, Something Delicious. It is an incredible tribute to learning how to cook. Thank you. From your family, starting with your grandmother, what is a fundamental that she shared with you that still guides you today?

A fundamental that she taught me is to just stay present and to have a good time. She taught me how to enjoy our time together in the kitchen, cooking together. We would always bake cakes together when I was sick from school. She lived next door to me, by the way—amazing—so I would just hop right next door. We would make tea and pound cakes. She had those indented molds, you know what I’m talking about? We would cook those together. So I feel like that’s something that she really just taught me—to be present and enjoy cooking by myself and enjoy cooking with other people.

It’s such an incredible way to learn how to cook and have it be such a natural part of your life from childhood. As you get older and cooking goes from a fun activity with Grandma to something that you have to do every day, it can get a little stressful. Oh yes. You kick your cookbook off with that question, “What are we going to eat?”—which has got to be one of the most vexing questions of anyone who’s got to feed themselves or their family. I know.

What is your advice for flipping that to something that you look forward to? Or are there just days when it’s going to be a struggle? I have a list of recipes where it’s: I don’t know what I want to eat, but here’s my list of things that I can whip up. I’m a list girl. So I just have a list in my notes of “I’m hungry, what can I make with what I have in my kitchen?” Oh, I can make tuna most of the time. I can make pasta most of the time. I went to the market and I got yogurt and granola or something like that. So I always have those essentials to make sure that I’m set up and I’m always able to eat something delicious. No pun intended—but it is pun intended. I love it. Puns allowed.

I never thought about having a list. I have one meal that I always go to when I’m at the grocery store. Oh yeah? What is it? Pork chop, potatoes, and whatever vegetable is in season. Ooh, that sounds amazing. Yeah. But the idea of having a list of five dishes that I could just look at and be like, “I’m going to cook this,” is such a great tip. Thank you.

Born and raised in LA, you talk about being inspired by so many different ingredients and cuisines. How do you pull all those different inspirations together to inspire you to cook at home? I love the farmers markets. I feel like that keeps things really creative and fresh and not stale. That’s why I do like to go to the farmers market, because it does allow me the opportunity to explore what’s available. And that keeps ideas flowing and you don’t have to repeat the same patterns and the same recipes. So I feel like that always keeps things fun and exciting when I’m cooking—and recipe developing too.

That teaching of what ingredients to shop for and how to shop for them—Grandmother did that for you. My mom taught me how to go grocery shopping the day before I left for college. But for those who don’t have someone who’s taught them how to shop for food, I’m excited for you to share your five rules for grocery shopping that make dinner easy. All of us have gone to the supermarket hungry. All of us have gone without writing anything down. It never turns out well. No, never. Every time I think I can ad-lib or I’ll remember everything, I come home and I’ve forgotten the mayo, the broccoli, something like that.

What is your rule number one that shows that shopping actually starts at home? The first rule is to have a plan. You can’t aimlessly go to the store. Maybe I will for fun, but if I want to have a plan for dinner and I want to actually cook, that is where I need a plan. So what I’ll do is on a Saturday or a Sunday or even Friday, I’ll kind of think: What am I vibing with this week? What’s in season? What am I feeling? Am I feeling like a salmon? Am I feeling like a chicken? So I’ll start with the protein and then I’ll be like, “Okay, I want a salad with that or roasted potatoes.” Then what I’ll do is I’ll make a categorized list—fruit, vegetables—and then also location too. I’ll go to the butcher for my meat and then I’ll go to the farmers market for the produce. That is definitely my favorite, very first step to really making sure that I have my ideas down. I’m not going aimlessly to the market. And I have my grocery list, so when I’m there, I can just check it off right away.

There is something so soothing about checking off that list and knowing what’s growing at that time. Building that list around what’s fresh and delicious—which ties directly into your rule number two.

Rule number two: shop seasonally. And this doesn’t mean you need to go to the farmers market. You know, at most markets, they’ll have persimmons popping up really soon that aren’t there in the summertime. I find when I’m getting good in-season produce, I’m able to do less to it too. Just salt and pepper—I don’t need to zhuzh it up as much. It’s just tasty on its own versus like, a winter tomato needs more love.

Thank you. Sometimes what stops me from buying so much fresh food or something seasonal is that I’ll open up my fridge and I forgot about some tasty tomato or an apple or a bunch of herbs that have gone to waste. Your third rule talks about how you can avoid having food go bad.

After I’ll have my plan and I’ve gone grocery shopping, I’ll come home, clean out the fridge—sometimes even do that before—but I’ll organize it. And it doesn’t need to be, “Oh, I see everything,” because in this next rule, I’ll write down what I bought and what I plan to make with it. But I kind of do like to have a more visual cue for it. I’ll put a magnet on my fridge. Oh, you can do a Post-it note inside your fridge or on the table. I’ll write down everything that’s in the fridge—mint, parsley, cucumber, chicory. I’ll write down the ingredients and then I’ll write down what I plan to make with it. I love this. I bought chicken from the butcher and I bought chicory from the farmers market. I’m going to make a one-pot chicken chicory dinner. Be right over. I write that down so I’m not going in my fridge on Monday night and I have chicory and I have chicken, but I forgot I had the chicory and I didn’t have my plan. Now, I’m not only having my plan from step one, I now have it written down and I’m executing on the plan. And I find that allows me to have the execution to actually cook dinner without having to think of what I want to make for dinner—it’s already been planned. But also it saves waste where I would forget that I bought that ingredient.

On the other side of the fresh ingredients and things that can go bad immediately is the pantry. And I can’t tell what is worse—having a full pantry and forgetting a fresh ingredient or having all the fresh ingredients and missing something from the pantry. True.

What’s your rule number four? Rule number four would be: having the canned goods ready. Having my olive oil. I use a lot of vinegars. I’ll have all my vinegars stocked and ready to go. Also, vinegar is so versatile. If I want to change it up and change the vinegar, change the flavor—I have all of those there. I have different types of olive oil, different types of seasonings and spices. So I’m pretty much not shopping. I’m not going to the grocery store. I’m making tacos tonight and I spent $100 on a recipe for one night of tacos. I kind of am able to streamline the whole week’s worth of dinner by having those fundamentals in my pantry.

We’ve talked a lot about planning. We’ve talked about the rules of how to shop to make dinner easy. This could stress people out and it could feel like if you don’t go in with a plan, you won’t have any sort of success—you need the list, you need the organization. But that doesn’t mean you can’t be creative and you can’t call an audible when you’re at the market or in the grocery store, which is a direct inspiration for your rule number five.

Rule number five: allow yourself to pivot. Yes. If I am at the farmers market and I was making tomatoes and chicken, but I saw really gorgeous leeks, I would just change it to leeks. Or let’s say I was planning to make grilled shrimp, but the fishmonger only has halibut—I will make those adjustments. If you don’t get your shrimp where you are, don’t go to the ends of the earth. Just let it go. If you have a purveyor you love and trust, and they don’t have what you want, there’s probably a good reason. True. So don’t go and try and substitute it unless you have some sort of backup. True. That’s a great tip. We’ll call it a bonus rule.

I know it sounds so far like I have this strict regimen and I can’t go off track—I know—but I have the plan and I’m open to be flexible and change it up. And I think that’s also something that I share in the book too. Use your fundamentals, use your intuition, and you can mix and match and change different things. And it’s okay.

Lindsey, congratulations on everything. Thank you so much. Something Delicious is out now, available where all books are sold. And please remember to support your local independent bookstore. If people want to follow you for recipes or content coming out of the book or just see what you’re working on, where can they go?

You can go on Instagram at @lindsayeats and also on my website at lindsayeatsla.com. I can’t wait for people to hit the grocery stores and to cook something delicious for themselves every day. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

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Yia Vang joins Five Rules for the Good Life this week to share lessons from the line and reflections from his incredible journey in food. Chef, storyteller, and champion of Hmong cuisine, Yia opens up about what it means to cook with purpose, lead a team, and feed a community. We talk family meal, kitchen language, and how to stay curious no matter where you are in your culinary path. And for the first time, he’s bringing that passion to The Chef Assembly in Los Angeles on October 20th. Catch him cooking live and sharing stories from the heart—tickets available here and more info at thechefassembly.com.

I’ve loved watching Yia’s story unfold over the last few years—from the early pop-ups to the full realization of Vinai. He’s one of those chefs who truly cooks from the heart, channeling personal history, cultural legacy, and deep care into every dish. His food doesn’t just taste good; it means something. You can feel the weight of tradition and the joy of discovery in every bite. He’s doing the work of telling the Hmong American story plate by plate, and it’s been amazing to see how that voice has grown louder, prouder, and more confident over time.

The Chef Assembly makes its annual LA stop on October 20th, with an impactful lineup of chefs and other culinary luminaries. The event will be held at ChowNow HQ and provide an inclusive space for connection between LA-based chefs, journalists, and industry colleagues from across the country and abroad. Supported by Resy, an American Express company, The Chef Assembly LA will consist of six panels, multiple delicious meal breaks, and a reception!

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I sit down with my buddy, Yia Vang, who’s the chef and owner of Vinay Restaurant and the host of some incredible cooking shows like Relish on PBS. He’ll also be in Los Angeles on October 20th for the Chef Assembly, where he’ll be cooking up some food and sharing his love and thoughts on Hmong cuisine. Today, he shares his five rules for being a good line cook. He talks about the importance of learning the shared language of the kitchen, how sharing a meal is more than just about eating together, and the best way to grow is to keep yourself curious. So let’s get into the rules.

Yia, so great to see you and sit down with you. Congratulations, two stars in the New York Times. What an achievement. I loved seeing your face and your name in the article. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. I felt good about what the write-up was. I’m glad that I didn’t know when they came in. So that was good. Yeah, it’s a nice thing to wake up and open up the paper and see yourself end of this morning. You and I first shot together almost about seven or eight years ago now. You’ve been on your journey as a chef for quite a long time. Do you remember how it first felt when you stepped on the line at a restaurant?

I remember my first line cook job, it was Italian Americano place. It was the kitchen manager literally was like, hey, do you know how to cook steaks? And I’m like, yeah, I think so. And he literally took me to the grill and was like, okay, you’re going to be making steaks all night. You know, the little thing, the whole like on your palm, rare, medium, rare, medium well, you know. Sure, yeah, and when you press your palm and you put your fingers together like he showed me real quick this is how you figure it out and then it’s like oh tickets are coming in get going and that was pretty much it and i just kind of turned it into a game in my head where i’m like okay here are the hot spots get the ticket time down and that’s kind of how i started with literally thrown into the deep end there’s no better place to learn how to swim than the deep end. Yeah or drown or drown or drown or drown.

Getting started as a line cook is such a good entry point. How much of it was learning on the line? How much did you know? What do you think is a base level that people should know before they step into that role? Some of my first cooking jobs were just prep, peeling potatoes and, you know, washing me as a dish kid, you know? I worked at this racetrack where literally I put the burgers at the end of the conveyor belt and I picked it up on the other end, you know, when it goes through the broiler. My first experience on the line was tough because nobody was really communicating with each other. You would just expect to know stuff. But even now I get to run a line and in our restaurant, we’re constantly communicating each other. You know, I always tell the guys over communicate, over communicate. Even if you’re saying, hey, two minutes on the fried rice, it’s like awesome. Over communicate so that we’re all on the same page to get everything out. I learned that by being on some bad lines. Right, right, right, right, right. I can tell people there’s always a conductor. There’s always one person who leads the charge. So let’s all follow him or her. I tell people that life is kind of like working on the line. Know how to prep enough for the night, but also enough that if it does go over crazy, you’re not running to the back to prep some more while you work.

Now that you’ve learned so much by being both on bad lines and good lines and now your own line, what do you look for when you’re hiring a line cook? The acronym I always have in the back of my mind when I look for people to come work on the line for us, it actually spells out the word FAT, F-A-T, right? So you’re looking for someone who’s F, faithful. They’re going to show up every day. And when they come in, they’re going to be coming in ready. A is accountable. They’re accountable for their actions. So if sometimes they mess up something, just tell us, hey, I messed this up. Awesome. There’s nothing so bad that you can do that we can’t unfix it or help. And in T, it’s trainable. We want them to be able to come with an empty mind to be able to be trained. So it’s just FAT, faithful, accountable, trainable.

Having this wealth of knowledge and this experience and your openness to teach people who want to learn how to be a line cook is really exciting because you’ve been there, you’ve grown, and they’re giving it back, which is why I am so excited that you’re going to share your five rules for being a good line cook. Now, anyone who’s ever worked in a restaurant or been in back of the house knows that there are so many specific terms and ways that people talk to each other when they’re cooking, which ties directly into your rule number one.

Rule number one is food is a universal language we use to speak to each other every day. I firmly believe in that. I believe that every cook, everybody who comes in and cooks, we already know this language. We’re using it every day. For example, a lot of our cooks are Latinos. I don’t really speak good Spanish. When I say I don’t speak good Spanish, I don’t speak Spanish at all. I know a few phrases. We’re definitely speaking two different languages but tell ralphie this is how we like this cut to be or if i’m talking to patricio and i say hey this is how i want you to do the grill they understand that because we speak food first before any other language.

That bond, that coming together, it obviously happens when you’re working and when you’re in the weeds. That type of companionship and being together extends beyond when you’re working. What’s your rule number two? Rule number two is never eat lunch alone. And when I say lunch, what I really mean is never eat family meal alone. I’ve been in the restaurant so long that we just have family meal. Family meal is part of what we do, right? People who aren’t in the restaurant world, they will look at me and go, so every day you guys eat together or you guys do a family meal together? I’m like, yeah. The one thing I love watching is all our cooks, our AM cooks before they leave, our PM cooks before they start, we all gather and then we just sit at the big table together and we just eat together. It’s so cool. It’s just this beautiful picture of all these chefs in their black shirt and they’re just eating together. And when they’re done in unison, they get up, they clear the table, they put on the aprons and they hop on the line and get ready. And it’s so incredible because I feel like that’s the most important part of building that team is eating together.

Because you all work together and you eat together, doesn’t always mean you’re always going to see eye to eye. Absolutely. Your third rule encourages people who are on the line to ask questions first before they make a change. What is your rule number three? Rule number three is before you take down a fence, ask yourself why it was put there in the first place. It was a quote I heard a long time ago. I’m like, that’s so true. Because I think that especially young cooks are always thinking, I have an idea. I have an idea. And I remember as a very young person, my freshman year of college, I would have all these ideas. And I remember I had a mentor who said, hey, man, I don’t doubt that one day you’re going to be a leader. I don’t doubt that one day people are going to listen to you. But right now, it’s time to soak things in. And what I loved about what he said to me both in that moment, really in the trajectory of this 18-year-old kid. You have to ask, why are there certain boundaries that were set? And not saying to stay within the boundaries, but learn how to say, hey, if we need to move this fence, well, let’s realize why this fence was put here at this spot. There was a reason for it. Let’s figure out where that reason is before we start going, oh, well, I just kicked this fence down. Who cares? And that’s like cooking. Cooking, you have these base, these structures that we cook within. You have to have it. How you make your sauce, how you sear a steak, how you make rice. There’s these bases that you work on it. To say that, oh, well, I’m going to do it this way now, well, you just totally took out the base of what you’re supposed to do. With young cooks, I always just tell, hey, take a pause, ask questions if you don’t understand, and ask why we’re doing it this way.

Asking for help and giving help are two great ways to teach and to learn, but there is an appropriate time for it. Your fourth rule focuses on having this shared mentality and stepping on the line. It’s a quote again from Erwin McManus. He’s a speaker and one of the things he says is courage is not the absence of fear, it’s the absence of self. And I really love that idea that to have courage doesn’t mean, oh, I’m not afraid to do this. No, you can be totally be afraid and still have courage. Courage and fear lives in the same realm and it’s okay. But it’s actually the absence of self. It’s actually you thinking about where it’s like, hey, it’s not about me anymore, right? So what I always say to our team when we have a big night, we look at our team and I say, hey, whatever comes through those doors tonight, whoever comes through those doors tonight, we’re going to get through this evening if we work together. That’s where we draw our courage from. Yes, it’s going to get busy. Yes, it’s going to get chaotic. Yes, people are going to fight. Yes, people are going to argue about certain things. But we have to remember that this is not just us here. This idea that if you want to be a good line cook, you got to know that you’re part of a team.

One of my favorite things about being on a good team is the trust that you build between the people that you work with. When there’s that trust and that support, it allows you to be open to learn not just from the top, but from anywhere. Your fifth and final rule focuses on that type of growth. I would just say, always be curious. My dad always said to us, you will be a life learner. You’ll always be a student of life. You’re always constantly learning, no matter how old you are. It’s so cool to think about it that way. I’m always curious about something. Even me, very blessed to get to do TV and do production. I’m always curious about it. I’m always sitting by the PAs and be like, okay, so tell me why you’re doing this way or this way. Sit by the DP or talk to our directors, talk to our showrunners and be like, show me that shot. How does that shot look? That’s the same mentality I bring into just not food, but every aspect of my life. Because if you think about what food really does is food brings people together. But we always talk about how food brings people together. But we never talk about, well, when we’re together, what happens next? I think the food is the catalyst into incredible conversations and relationships. Food is just the beginning. And that’s what I love about having a restaurant. That’s what I love about cooking at a restaurant is that what we get to do is we get to spark everything. Having people sit together at a table and we bring food to them. The rest is up to them. Be curious about each other when you’re sitting with each other eating a meal. It’s such a beautiful sentiment. Yeah.

Congratulations on anything. If people want to see what you’re up to, watch some of your show, which has been Emmy nominated or check out Vinay to eat a meal. Where can they go? You can follow us on social media @vinaymn on Instagram and then me personally @yevang70 on Instagram and then we have updates on all our shows and updates on all our restaurants. Well, I can’t wait to see you out here in LA for the Chef Assembly which is happening October 20th. I know you’ll be out here sharing some of your food and looking forward to hear you talk. Congratulations again on the Times and I can’t wait to share meal with you soon. Okay. Thanks a lot man. Appreciate it so much.

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On this episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with Chris Shepherd and Lindsey Brown, the power duo behind Southern Smoke Foundation, the organization they founded to provide emergency relief and mental health services to food and beverage workers nationwide. Chris and Lindsey share their Five Rules to Prepare for the Unexpected, including their new Crisis Toolkit, a great personal and professional resource to prepare yourself, your team, and your loved ones for scenarios like natural disasters, legal and medical emergencies, and more. If you're in or around Houston this Friday (October 4), make sure to get yourself to their biggest and most delicious fundraiser of the year, Southern Smoke Festival---a delicious day on Discovery Green feat. 85+ chefs and beverage pros from across the country.

This conversation means a lot to me. The culinary community has always been one of the first to show up in times of crisis—feeding, supporting, organizing. But the recovery process is never quick. The heartbreak doesn’t end when the fire is out or the floodwaters recede. It’s long, hard, and often invisible. That’s why organizations like the Southern Smoke Foundation are so essential. They remind us that true support is sustained support. Lindsey and Chris continue to show up—not just with funding or resources, but with empathy, experience, and structure. Their work is an inspiring blueprint for how to care for a community, not just in the moment, but long after the headlines fade.

Photo by Daniel Ortiz

Tickets are on sale now! Mark your calendars for October 4, 2025, as the Southern Smoke Festival presented by Sysco returns to Houston’s Discovery Green. This high-energy event brings together 85+ top chefs, beverage pros, and live music for one unforgettable day. More than a feast, it fuels the Southern Smoke Foundation’s mission to support food and beverage workers in crisis. Come for the flavors, stay for the cause.

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz.

It is always a pleasure, and today I get to sit down with Lindsey Brown and Chris Shepherd, the Executive Director and the Founding Director and Honorary Chairman, respectively, of the Southern Smoke Foundation. They’re here to share their five rules to help prepare for the unexpected. We talk about this year’s devastating storms in their home state of Texas, how being prepared with checklists and important documents before disaster strikes is the best way to stay safe, and how taking care of your mental health is a key step to survival.

So let’s get into the rules.

Chris and Lindsey, always so good to see you two. Congratulations on the festival that’s coming up right around the corner. Thank you for making the time to sit down with me for the show.

Your home state of Texas was hit with devastating storms and flooding in the Hill Country. I know that the Southern Smoke Foundation was early on the ground to help offer support and guidance during this terrible time. Can you share some of the details of your outreach immediately after the storm?

We have a very focused niche when it comes to supporting natural disasters. There was so much devastation in that region, yet so few of those people that were devastated work in the food and beverage industry. Our Chief Mission Officer actually has family in Kerrville, so she spent a couple of days hitting the pavement, letting them know that we’re here and we’re available and we are accepting applications for assistance. What she found was a lot of hesitation and a lot of distrust. There had already been people down there scamming a lot of these folks.

What we found is that a lot of people are on a business cash basis in that small town. One of the things that we remind people is you need to keep track of payments, you need to keep track of your pay stubs. Unfortunately, as a 501(c)(3), we’re not able to fund people who get paid in cash. To be really honest, it’s been a challenge for us to help anyone in that region for those reasons. There’s a lot of mistrust for people from the outside. A lot of those businesses are cash businesses. And as close as we are, we’re still so far away.

Dealing with the Eaton Canyon fires, it really is a ground game. It just feels like such a tenuous time in these little communities and the culinary industry at large. What have you two seen personally, even closer to home?

What we’re seeing on the emergency relief side is that we’re getting more individual applications, not disaster-related, than we ever have before. That can be a mix of a couple of things. It could be the fact that we have more awareness now than we have before. There’s a lot of crisis out there. There are a lot of people who don’t have a safety net. In addition to the quantity of applications, the grants that we’re giving out are larger than ever. The need is real.

With these increased needs and your desire to support the community, how does Southern Smoke garner enough support and then distribute it accordingly?

You mentioned Southern Smoke Festival, and so these events that we’re doing to fundraise are very important. Festival is still our largest annual fundraiser, and that, plus Decanted—which is our wine auction in the spring—that’s about half of our annual revenue. Everything else comes in through third-party events, fundraisers, corporate partners, individual donors. We’ve staffed up pretty significantly on our programs team. So we have more full-time people working cases. We also have more contract people working cases, and we have it in our business plan to continue to hire next year.

It’s also about going out and doing events. Like this weekend, I’ll be in Greenville for Euphoria, their food festival there, raising awareness for Southern Smoke. And then literally going off to California to do another event to raise more awareness. As much money as we’re raising—or trying to raise—we still need to do more, because we also grow in what people know of us.

Getting that awareness out and helping get people prepared for what life throws at them is really inspiring. That’s why I’m so excited for you to share your five rules to help prepare for the unexpected, which is something my family went through this year when we lost our house to the Eaton Canyon fire.

Oh, I’m so sorry. I didn’t realize that.

It’s okay. And I appreciate it. The rules we’re going to talk about—I see them, and I feel good because I knew some of them, but not all of them. When you are faced with even having the opportunity to evacuate or to see something coming that you have no control over, it’s easy to scramble. It’s easy to grab things that are personally important, but maybe won’t help you immediately in getting you even just to the next step of getting you back on your feet or in a safe place.

Your rule number one is one of the most important things you can think about when dealing with something unexpected. What’s your first rule?

Have your documents online and know how to access them. We see all the time—people don’t know how to find their paystubs. They don’t know where the copy of their lease is. All of those things they’ll need in a crisis, not just to provide to us, but any other disaster or crisis relief organization is going to ask for those things too. Creating a free Google Drive account and uploading the documents so you can access them from your phone, from any computer, anywhere you are, and just knowing that all of it is there in one place. Hopefully you will never need it—hopefully—but if you do, it’s there and you know how to find it.

Had I known how on our own we were going to be, as far as having those types of documents or even having a plan, I would have prepared even more. Which speaks a lot to your rule number two: have a plan.

Have a plan in the case of a natural disaster. Think about a lot of people that are having a baby—they’ve got their bag packed by the door. It’s another version of that. What do you do if something is headed your way and you have to evacuate? What are you going to have ready? How are you going to get the word out to friends and family or employees if you’re a business owner? Knowing exactly what that plan is, is so important.

Well, it’s funny, because as we say this, I need to do this better.

Everybody does.

Everyone should be prepared.

You touched on this earlier about people being guarded because the scammers have come in. And we’ve seen this as well too, in California, dealing with the fires. What no one really warns you about is that once you survive, once you get out, once you start rebuilding, a lot of people are going to come and try to take advantage of you.

Which brings us to your rule number three: know what your rights are.

One thing we found is that our case managers have really become advocates for our applicants when they’re working those cases. So they’re the ones connecting them with legal aid. They’re the ones connecting them with different organizations, immigration organizations. We’ve sort of built internally—we don’t post it because things change so quickly—but we have an internal Rolodex of different groups that we can recommend our applicants reach out to or connect them to. I mean, so many people that come to us don’t know about disability. There are even people who don’t know about SNAP benefits.

We also partner with other like-minded nonprofits—if we partner with Giving Kitchen or we partner with CORE, we can help that applicant further with all of us working together and providing larger sums. Once you know your rights and once you know what you have access to, it really allows you to plan.

And your fourth rule helps you stay organized—which, Chris, you know, anyone who’s ever stepped into a kitchen does this all the time just to make a meal or service happen. But people rarely do this for the bigger moments in life. What’s your fourth rule?

Have checklists printed. I can definitely speak to Chris—he’ll cook Thanksgiving dinner and he’s got it all written down.

Same. Everything that I’m doing over the next few days is checklist-based. And it’s easy to have it on your phone or it’s easy to have it just in a document or just written down anywhere. Thanksgiving, I have a whiteboard in the kitchen.

The Notes app on your phone is a wonderful thing. There are even checkboxes you can add there. Once I learned how to use that—game changer.

The final part of this puzzle when life comes at you pretty fast is a tricky one. A lot of people who experience the unexpected—what they don’t tell you is that there’s the moment it happens, and then the moment continues on. You’re constantly living in this event because you’re either not back home or your community’s been disrupted. The life that you thought you had or the safety you thought you had isn’t there anymore. You have to find a way to both accept and ride through those emotions.

Which encapsulates your rule number five: you have to take care of your mental health.

So many of these events are so traumatic. You need that support to make it through. Not all crisis is financial. Well, traditionally, when the financial crisis happens, so do other crises. When you start thinking about, “How am I going to do all this?” you can’t do that by yourself. You have to have somebody to talk to.

And you guys offer counseling.

We do. We provide grants with universities that have clinical training programs. In exchange for those grants, we have PhD candidates who provide 20 free sessions for food and beverage workers. We’re an emergency relief organization in 50 states. Our Behind You mental health program is in 12 states and D.C., and we hope to have a 13th state by the end of this year.

We’re slowly growing. We’re doing it strategically. The last thing we want to do is go into a state and have to pull out because of funding. So that’s why it’s really important to us to make sure that the funding is there. Our two newest states are Michigan and Florida. We’re really excited to have them on board.

Chris and Lindsey, thank you so much for continuing your support, throwing the festival—which is happening this year on October 4th—and for providing all these resources for people who both know that they need it and don’t know that they’re going to need it maybe a week or a month or even a year from now.

If people want to donate, or follow along with the events, or just see how they can work with you and donate their time, where can they go?

SouthernSmoke.org.

Thank you so much for sharing our message. It means more than you know.

It’s the least I could do. I really appreciate you two making the time. Good luck with everything. And I hope to see you soon.

Thank you so much.

Thank you very much.

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On this celebratory Rosh Hashanah episode of Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with Amanda Dell, Vice President of Programs and Communications at the Jewish Food Society. She shares her Five Rules for Creating New Traditions through meaningful gatherings rooted in food, memory, and hospitality. From hosting a modern Seder to using her grandma’s heirloom plates, we discuss hosting in a way that’s inclusive, generous, & deeply personal, without losing the thread of tradition, both old & new.

As someone raising a family and navigating what it means to carry Jewish tradition forward, I’ve been thinking about how to celebrate the holidays in a way that feels personal, relevant, and connected. I’m not trying to replicate the past exactly, but I don’t want to lose it either. Amanda speaks directly to that balance. Her perspective shares the same permission to adapt—whether that’s hosting Rosh Hashanah dinner on a night when everyone can gather or adding new dishes to the Seder table—without guilt. It reminded me that what matters most is being with the people I love and creating something that’s ours.

When people ask me about how the community rebuilding effort in Altadena is coming along, I point to what Randy, April & the entire team at Good Neighbor Bar have done with their patio. Home of the fire map, they transformed their parking lot into a family-friendly patio, featuring a rotating pop-up of local restaurants. Now that space is in trouble, & we need your support, Please sign here and help us get the word out!

The Chef Assembly makes its annual LA stop on October 20th, with an impactful lineup of chefs and other culinary luminaries. The event will be held at ChowNow HQ and provide an inclusive space for connection between LA-based chefs, journalists, and industry colleagues from across the country and abroad. Supported by Resy, an American Express company, The Chef Assembly LA will consist of six panels, multiple delicious meal breaks, and a reception!

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I'm your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I am joined by Amanda Dell, the Vice President of Programs and Communications for the Jewish Food Society. She is helping me ring in the Jewish New Year by sharing her five rules for creating new traditions. She talks about how honoring the past is the best way to create something new for the future, that the most important thing you can do is to get people together to celebrate, and how to always leave your guests wanting more. So Shana Tova and let's get into the rules.

Amanda, happy new year on this air of Rosh Hashanah. I hope you got your apples and honey supply in check this year. So excited to chat today and feeling like we go way back, full circle, perfect for Rosh Hashanah in the new year. What I love about Jewish traditions is that they're always centered around food, which I know is something that you have dedicated a good chunk of your life to with your work at the Jewish Food Society. Yeah. Why do you think good food and Jewish traditions go hand in hand?

What makes Jewish food so exciting and interesting, why it's such an integral part of our life, is a couple of things. First of all, Jews live all over the world. We do. Our food reflects that. We get to bring some of our traditions, what we eat, depending on the climate, the terroir, the location. Food is actually part of a lot of our holidays. A holiday like Passover, a food that we eat like matzah, it's part of the story. There's a lot of symbolic food. That's a really strong connection. And then there's also in the same vein as matzah, Shabbat foods are foods that are cooked overnight. By following the religion, you get these foods that are specifically made for Shabbat and holidays. I think that's what anchors a lot of Jewish food.

Speaking of Passover, one of my favorite traditions was us completing the second half of the Seder during hockey intermissions. What do you love about people taking these historic holidays and making their own traditions within them?

I love everything about that. When people want to honor the past, they want to bring some elements of their childhood, but they want to make them their own. To me, the perfect balance is bringing these two worlds together. At Jewish Food Society, we just did an amazing home visit with my friend Marissa Lippert. She's a chef and writer. She has this recipe from her grandma Bibi for kuchen, which is the generic German word for cake. It's something she grew up with. Phoebe would make it for Rosh Hashanah with apple, something very traditional. For Marissa, who's a chef, she puts her own spin on it. It makes it all seasons of the year based on what's at the market. She's feeling kind of puts her own spin on things.

I think for people in our age range, I'll say, I think this is the pivotal time to move things into your domains. It feels natural amongst me and my friends that when you're younger and there's a lot of kids in the family, it's more natural to do these holidays and for everyone to come to the grandparents. But then as the older generation passes away and people start having their own families, that's the time it naturally morphs into the next generation.

Creating tradition for our generation can be exciting because you get to bring your own perspective onto it, but it can also be really terrifying. I remember the first time I changed something a little bit in my grandma's recipe and I was so nervous for her to try it and she wound up loving it and we had this connection over food and me taking her recipe and making something new. What is the right mindset to have when you want to change a tradition and create something new?

Honestly, it's as simple as the act of just being inspired by what has come before you. I love that. It's about thinking about that family member, remembering the tastes, remembering the smells, what the house was like by just updating something or being inspired by something that's more seasonal. It's really just about doing it. I really love this idea of taking all that you've experienced in your life, all that you celebrated, and really making it your own, which is why I'm so excited for you to be here to share your five rules for creating new tradition. Now, whether you're Jewish or you have a different cultural background, there has been so much that has happened that one can pull from to really find inspiration. And your first rule focuses on looking backwards to make the future yours.

Number one we touched on a little bit. Honor the past while looking forward. I kind of cheat this one because I actually live in my grandmother's apartment. I totally get a pass there because it's truly honoring the past. My grandmother was a truly amazing person, and I grew up in a family that loves food, but my grandmother went to college. She had a job. She was interested in traveling. She was interested in going out to dinner. So for her, it was never about cooking all the time and being in the kitchen. She wanted to be more modern than that. But loved food and loved eating. So I think she would be so thrilled to see her home filled with my friends, with my sister, with my nephew. I saved some of her most special plateware and pieces. And I love to use those. And that's one way I kind of hold on to the past, but lets me then explore more what I want to cook.

That's so beautiful. Yeah. The thing about holidays is that they come around every year, no matter where you are in your life. And so that means when you're getting people together and you're celebrating, that doesn't always mean you're going to be on the same page. But your second rule talks about having that openness to host and celebrate with people who might be in a different spot than you are at that time. What's your rule number two?

Rule number two and rule number three go hand in hand. Second rule, meet people where they are. Third rule is the most important thing is getting people there. I just try to really put myself in someone else's shoes of all the people that I want to invite and be like, okay, when is it most convenient for everyone? If it has to be on the second night of a holiday, if it has to be shifted a little bit, we're not waiting till sundown if it's not convenient for everyone. It's really about meeting people where they are is like the best way I can describe it. I don't put so many guardrails around exactly when we're doing it in a certain way. And there's always room for another person. Yes. That is my third rule. It's about getting people there. Assemble a great group and everything will be totally fun as long as you get people there.

Even if it's not a traditional group. Totally. For Passover last year, I co-hosted with my sister. It was at her place. We had some friends that weren't Jewish. We had some friends that I never celebrated holidays with before. We had my nephew there who was two. So we had to do like a lot of story time and going through the Seder plate, which was so fun and doing a very two-year-old focused explanation. And then once he went to bed, we broke out more wine.

Pouring that extra wine and having extra dishes, even if they traditionally don't go with the dinner or celebration at hand, has always allowed me as a host to relax and also allowed me to push the guests to really indulge and to enjoy themselves. And this type of hospitality aligns with your rule number four.

This is a big rule for me. Be generous with the food and the drink. Huge. I love to create something that's really bountiful. Not to hate on anyone, but I think we've all been to events or gatherings where it's very twee, very intimidating. And I hate that. I like to set up a drink area where people can pour their own drinks. I love to just have a lot of variety and make it as visually beautiful as it can and people feel comfortable to dive in.

And not get too caught up in what one might expect from food and drink. Totally. Totally. I love to do a combination of something that's more modern, meaning that could be like in the plateware, that could be like in the ingredients, and then do something that's on my grandmother's china or other things that feel like a little more fancy. I like a balance between those two things.

And people are always also welcome to bring stuff. Yeah. This isn't one of my rules. Bonus rule. It's typically what happens with my friends. Love to have bonus items. Which I can tell you right now, the idea of anyone bringing extra dishes to my grandmother's Seder. Right. Unless you were assigned. Unless someone had the haroset. Yeah. But even that, not at our house. It feels like a relic of the past, although I respect their generation so much because that was their pride. Yes. That was what they felt was their job. They loved to do that. And I don't want to take anything away from them. It's just not how things are done now.

So you've had people over. You've mixed it up. The old and the new. Yeah. Your fifth and final rule focuses on this type of feeling when people leave your house.

My fifth rule, which this was, by the way, so fun to get to write these because the last one is something that I always have to remind my friends of, which is always leave them wanting more. There's a crescendo to every event, whether it's something that I'm hosting, whether it's something that I do for work. You know, when your event is at the high point you feel the energy in the room everyone is laughing and you want to hold on to that moment. I truly feel that it's important to know when the event or the night is over. Instead of people hanging out too long it's more about when the night is over you want people being like oh my gosh when can we do that again. Yeah.

This is getting very funny and personal. But I am an early to bed, early to rise type of person. You've picked a life of hosting that doesn't always work with that type of approach. Yes. So it's a delicate balance. Yeah. This is something for life too. I want to hold on to the feeling of a great night and I want to leave on that feeling. When it veers into a territory where you've been there a little too long, then you start getting tired. Someone drops a glass. You don't know where your shoes are. And then it's just like, you don't leave with the best feeling. All this is leave on a high note.

Well, that's the type of tradition that I think anyone can get behind. Amanda, thank you for sharing. If people want to learn more about the Jewish Food Society or when the next great nosh is going to be, where can they go? How can they follow along?

We are at Jewish Food Society on all platforms. You can visit our archive at jewishfoodsociety.org and sign up for our newsletter. We send beautiful recipes and stories a few times a month. And you can follow the Great Nosh at the Great Nosh Picnic.

Incredible. Enjoy your feast tonight. Thanks. Happy New Year, Shana Tova. And hopefully we can bring some new traditions together sometime soon. Okay, sounds good. Really appreciate you taking the time to chat and I hope I get to see you soon. Shana Tova.

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See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.