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A great power battle is emerging between Russia, China and Washington… and Europe teeters on the edge of all three. Could this break up the union? And is the European reliance on America over?

To find out, Jason is joined by author and Director of the Moynihan Center of European Studies at Syracuse University, Glyn Morgan. His latest book The Rise and Fall of American Europe charts the rise and fall of the 80-year history of what he calls American Europe. 

Jason and Glyn discuss how this system emerged off the back of Roosevelt's plans to dismantle both fascism and British imperial power, why it delivered decades of European prosperity, and why that’s now under threat.

Plus: European complacency on defence, Macron's failed warnings, and - as they Order the Disorder - Glyn imagines a future where Europe works together for defense, with Britain’s role as a guardian of the Atlantic Sea. 

To get an extended version of the episode, join the Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: Sam Cluley

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Shownotes:

Get The Rise and Fall of American Europe by Glyn Morgan

https://www.politybooks.com/bookdetail?book_slug=the-rise-and-fall-of-american-europe--9781509573202

For more on Glyn visit his Syracuse University faculty page

https://www.maxwell.syr.edu/directory/glyn-morgan

For more on our partnership with the New Books Network

https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder

This week, Jason is joined by one of his academic idols, Laura Spinney. Laura is a much-esteemed author of Pale Rider: The Spanish Flu of 1918 and How it Changed the World, and her incredible newer book Proto: How One Ancient Language Went Global.

PROTO tells the story of how modern Indo-European languages came into being North of the Black Sea and then traveled East—the length of the steppe, north of the Caucasus, then into the Silk Roads and the Hindu Kush—and West—from the Hungarian steppe into the forest lands of Western Europe. In this episode, Jason and Laura discuss the Yamnaya nomads who spread these languages throughout the world; the central role of Ukraine in pre-history and its centrality now and in the future as a pivot of human civilization; and as they Order the Disorder: they discuss the need for an institution to preserve global memory, so that we as humans can avoid making the same mistakes of the past.

To get the rest of the bonus content associated with this multi-part episode, i.e. a discussion about who are the Celts and Jason’s views on Proto and how ancient linguistic history can shed light on the demographic and climate change problems of today, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Get Proto: How One Ancient Language Went Global https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/proto-how-one-ancient-language-went-global-laura-spinney?variant=56326451724667 

Listen - Laura Spinney: rise of the proto-Indo-Europeans https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/laura-spinney-rise-of-the-proto-indo-europeans/id1542136715?i=1000708790296 

For more on Laura visit https://www.lauraspinney.com/ 

For more on our partnership with the New Books Network - https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder 

This week Jason is joined by old friend and former Disorder co-host Arthur Snell, former British diplomat, host of Behind the Lines, and author of Elemental: The New Geography of Climate Change and How We Survive It.

Jason and Arthur start with the seemingly never-ending Iran war. Has Trump’s threatened “economic D-Day” achieved anything? Has it really even been implemented? Jason argues that Iran could become America’s Suez moment: not another Vietnam, but an debacle exposing the limits of American power and its inability to Order the world without its allies.

They then turn to the U.S. midterms, whether the Democrats can retake Congress, and their continuing failure to articulate a coherent national message. And behind both American and British politics lurks another constraint: the bond market. With rising borrowing costs limiting what governments can actually do, could markets and independent institutions provide some of the feedback loops that politics increasingly lacks?

Next up is Andy Burnham’s back-to-school moment. Can he rebuild Britain’s relationship with Europe, stand up to Trump and make better use of Britain’s considerable geopolitical leverage? Jason proposes an “elbows up rule”: medium powers confronting Trump need to articulate clear red lines and stick to them rather than succumbing to appeasement.

Finally, Arthur draws on his book Elemental to explain how the devastating Nepal floods reveal a much bigger climate and geopolitical problem. Billions depend on water originating in the Himalayas and Tibetan Plateau, potentially intensifying tensions between China, India and Pakistan. Like Libya’s Derna disaster, it illustrates an Enduring Disorder: foreseeable risks that fragmented institutions repeatedly fail to prepare for.

To Order the Disorder, Arthur calls for rebuilding British soft power through refunding the BBC World Service, British Council and universities, while Jason proposes a clear Burnham Doctrine on Britain’s place in the world. And despite the climate crisis, Arthur offers some grounds for optimism: much of the technology needed for the energy transition already exists — the challenge is turning it into policies governments can actually deliver and then maintaining the will to implement them.

For Mega Orderers Club members, Jason and Arthur continue with a bonus discussion on the Liberal Democrats and their place in Britain’s rapidly changing political landscape. Join the club at disordershow.com/club to get that immediately.

SHOWNOTE LINKS:

Join the Mega Orderers Club and get the Arthur Snell intro to who are the Lib Dems, what are they doing, and what do they believe in:
https://www.disordershow.com/club

Arthur Snell’s Elemental
https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/arthur-snell/elemental/9781529097016

Arthur Snell’s Behind the Lines
https://shows.acast.com/behind-the-lines-with-arthur-snell

Arthur’s Not All Doom Substack
https://arthursnell.substack.com/

Join the Mega Orderers Club
https://www.disordershow.com/club

Disorder on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Ordering the Disorder on Substack
https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

In this episode, we return to Simon Sebag Montefiore’s tour de force, The Cauldron: The Making of the Modern Middle East. Jason and Sebag divide the continuation of their discussion into two parts: 1) An analysis of what makes the Middle East a ‘Cauldron’ and what has the region’s role in 20th and 21st century global history been as an exporter of disorder or importer and then processor of the global disorder happening around it; 2) Our attempt to order the disorder with a lightening round where I ask Sebag impossibly big questions: first about big themes on civilization, religion, and history and then about how to fix the Middle East. 

The crux of the episode is: What makes the Middle East unique as a region? Is it its geography, relation to religion, legacy of empires, connection to oil resources, or being the fulcrum where Asia, Europe, and Africa meet? Sebag thinks it is all of the above, Jason thinks it is its culture and lack of institutional legacy and public spiritedness.. he discussed this in the bonus bit for Mega Orderers.. They also delve into the role of Pakistan, America, Russia, and Britain in the Middle Eastern region and how part of the region’s uniqueness is how it sucks in other powers for ideological, religious, and oil reasons. 

To get the bonus content associated with this two-part episode, i.e. Jason views on the role of culture and institutions in making the Middle East a Cauldron, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club 

When you log in there after joining you will get Jason’s micro episode for members of the Mega-Orderers Club only on A CULTURAL CRITIQUE OF WHERE THE DISORDER of the Middle east COMES FROM—as he debate’s the establishment on the region’s uniquely dysfunctional culture and institutional legacies of greed of clan and faction and whether the Middle East is in fact unique or just like everywhere else when it comes to its a profound absence of public spiritedness. 

Producer: George McDonagh 

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 

Show Notes Links: 

To get the book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cauldron-Making-Modern-Middle-East/dp/1399634895/  

As for what is happening with Iran and the economic D-Day: https://thehill.com/policy/international/6045556-iran-warns-middle-east-us-economic-war/  

How the US and Middle East allies flipped the oil script on Iran: 

https://edition.cnn.com/2026/08/22/business/oil-strait-of-hormuz-iran  

To get the bonus content associated with part 2, i.e. the rule of culture and institutions in making the Middle East a Cauldron, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club 

This week, Jason is joined by esteemed British historian and author, Simon Sebag Montefiore, to discuss his latest book, The Cauldron: The Making of the Modern Middle East. Jason and Sebag’s discussion ranges over centuries of history and ping pongs back and forth on myriad topics. It tries to make the peripheral central by putting the non-Arab, non-Sunni groups at the centre of understanding the Modern Middle East.

They unpack how the Middle East became the Disorderly region we know today and where to frame current conflicts historically to understand certain deeper dynamics, especially as pertains to minorities and their ambitions for statehood and peoplehood. They focus a lot on WWI and the dynamics that emerged from it and shaped the history of the Kurds, Armenians, Turks, and fleeing Ionian Greeks. These were the dynamics of population transfer and ethnonationalism that destroyed the old Middle East of the Millet System. They try to avoid the overdone Israel/Palestine dynamics which occasionally shed more heat than light. With this framing in place, they look at what tragedies took us to the current pointless and self-defeating Iran war, and where we might go from here.

To get part 2 with bonus content, and hear it before anyone else, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To get Simon’s book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cauldron-Making-Modern-Middle-East/dp/1399634895/ 

For more Disorder about the history of the Middle East, try:

What is Zionism and is it still relevant today? Israel’s Independence Day with Phil Rosenberg  https://open.spotify.com/episode/3ug89R0zHLumkldJX5Cmo2

And Sir Vincent Fean The Case for Palestinian Statehood: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/listen/disorder/ep74-part2-the-case-for-palestinian-statehood 

And the Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/listen/disorder/ep36-part-i-former-armenian-president-sarkissian-on-armenian-genocide-remembrance-day

This episode is brought to you in partnership with the New Books Network, for more visit https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder 

Welcome to ‘Out of Order’ with Mark Lobel. A new series, in partnership with Disorder.

Remarkable people, unguarded. Each month, Emmy nominated journalist Mark Lobel meets some of the world’s most interesting people to understand the moments that made them who they are; and where they see hope in our mad mad mad mad world when so much feels out of order.

In his most revealing interview yet, Charles Cumming, a master of modern spy fiction, opens up about his work, life and reveals his biggest regret, one that helped shape his spy novels.

The duo discuss Charles upbringing - and how being sent to a boarding school at a young age shaped his writing. They also chat divorce-- and how two divorces, that of Charles parents and later himself, still shapes his writing, and why spy novels can call out the crimes and immorality of people like Putin and Trump in different ways that politicians and political commentators.

For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club - use the promo code BACKGAMMON50 for 50% off a Mega Orderers membership. Limited time only. There is only one week left to redeem this offer.

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Get in touch with Mark here https://www.mark-lobel.com/ 

For more on Out of Order visit https://linktr.ee/outofordermarklobel 

ICARUS 17: A nailbiting new Lachlan Kite espionage thriller, from Sunday Times bestselling author Charles Cumming: Book 4 (BOX 88)
https://amzn.eu/d/06DAbiyU

To celebrate Jason's 2nd place finish at the World Backgammon Championships, we're rerunning a classic episode of Disorder; centred around the game itself and the lessons it provides for the Mega Ordering community.

If you didn’t hear this when it came out in July, 2025, I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now.

We’ve heard about Putin bluffing. Abraham Lincoln was an accomplished poker player and Churchill dabbled at chess. But to our mind it is Backgammon that best reflects both politics and life decisions. It’s a game of skill, luck, reversals and socializing. So could world leaders use Backgammon to help them develop their empathy, strategic thinking, resilience, and make better decisions?

In this conversation, Jason Pack is joined by Marc Olsen – fellow Backgammon Grandmaster, former professional footballer, and the CEO and Founder of Backgammon Galaxy. Together they explore the multifaceted world of Backgammon. They unpack how it is a metaphor for life, decision-making, and the balance between order and disorder. 

They discuss Marc's journey from professional football to becoming the CEO of Backgammon Galaxy, the conformism of Scandinavian society, and how a rebellious nature led Marc to discover Austrian school economics. Plus: the emotional aspects of learning through games, the relevance of game theory in the Enduring Disorder, and the unique features of Backgammon that make it a rich learning experience. And as they Order they Disorder – how Backgammon can foster empathy and social skills, and the potential of Backgammon as a tool for cross-cultural connection, especially in the Middle Eastern region.

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 

Show Notes Links:

The World Backgammon Championship Final featuring Jason Pack against Petko Kostadinov : The World Backgammon Championship Final 2026

For more on Backgammon Galaxy visit - https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/ 

To watch the 2024 World Backgammon Championship Final commentated by Marc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d7-ky1bROk 

For a very fun video produced by Marc and featuring Jason about the World Backgammon Championship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebkgCNS7OI 

For Marc on the Gentleman Scofflaw podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-gentleman-scofflaw-podcast/id1216891117?i=1000650103880 

Jason and Jane are back from their holidays – Jason celebrating making the Finals of the World Championships of Backgammon and winning the Silver Medal, and Jane reflecting on her time in Morocco. But soon as they discuss the state of the world, Disorder enters as they disagree agreeably about devolution in the UK. Plus: what can or is being done with the climate crisis, and what does Abdul El-Sayed’s win in America’s Democratic primary mean for the direction the party is taking and its hope for the midterms?

For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club - use the promo code BACKGAMMON50 for 50% off a Mega Orderers membership. Limited time only.

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For Jason’s reflections on Backgammon and Mega-Ordering and humility on losing: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iGehf_MAyuE 

For Valeria’s art: https://backgammonbeauty.com/

You can watch the final here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UruOwdoyu8&t=8414s

Or the more (pleasing from my perspective) semi final here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yptjF5waoZ8&t=12807s

Andy Burnham on How to Fail - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aRidqdh29w 

For more on Backgammon Galaxy visit - https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/

For summer recess, we return to our favourite episodes of all time where we explain the very essence of our conception of the Enduring Disorder as a period where international institutions tend not to work and where coordinating the allies to stay on the same page about things like defence, climate change, and taxation is a tremendous challenge. The rare exception is NATO, it mostly works even if Trump rails against it.  This episode explains why.

If you didn’t hear this when it came out in October, 2023, I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now.

Nation states no longer work effectively in tandem. Gone are the days of hegemonic US power directly ordering the allies. Furthermore, groups like the UN are ineffective, with disruptors often calling the shots. However, NATO stands apart as an example of how countries can work together successfully and how a global institution can remain largely uncontroversial, while doing serious coordinating work to solve real world problems.

In this episode our hosts and guests relate their perspectives about what NATO stands for, its strengths and limitations, and the threats it faces. Former NATO Deputy Sec General, Jamie Shea tells about how the organisation worked in the Balkans and Afghanistan, while Kori Schake mulls over the role of the US as NATO’s hegemonic leader. Timothy Garton Ash comments on distinctions between NATO and the EU especially as pertains to values like liberty. Finally, Charles Kupchan examines why Russia chooses to actively disorder. Charles and Jason disagree agreeable on China’s role as an orderer vs. disorderer.

For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For more on Kori Schake, visit https://www.aei.org/profile/kori-schake/ 

For more on Jamie Shea, visit https://www.chathamhouse.org/about-us/our-people/jamie-shea

Get Timothy Garton Ash’s book, Homelands at - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/442543/homelands-by-ash-timothy-garton/9781847926616 

For more on Charles Kupchan, visit https://www.cfr.org/expert/charles-kupchan

This week on Disorder latest, Jason is joined by Dr Florence Gaub, futurist, military strategist, and Director of the Research Division at the NATO Defense College. Florence has spent her career thinking professionally about something most of us do rather badly: systematically plan for the future. 

Her book, The Future: A User’s Guide, was a best seller in German. It is now available in English from Hurst. It argues that the future is not simply something that happens to us. We imagine it, fear it, misunderstand it and — crucially — in thinking about it in certain flawed ways, help create it. 

Jason and Florence discuss why humans are simultaneously obsessed with the future and terrible at thinking about it: from catastrophising and the Cassandra Complex to optimism bias, surprise and science fiction. They explore why governments are so often blindsided by seemingly predictable crises — and whether strategic foresight can help Orderers stop responding to yesterday’s problems. 

In Ordering the Disorder, they discuss how imagining positive futures might itself be a tool for Ordering the Disorder. 

Producer: Sam Cluley 

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 

Show Notes Links: 

Buy Florence Gaub’s The Future: A User’s Guide: 
https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/the-future/ 

Read about Florence and her work at the NATO Defense College: 
https://www.ndc.nato.int/research/researchers/florence-gaub/ 

Listen to Florence on NATO 2099 and strategic foresight: 
https://www.nato.int/en/news-and-events/articles/news/2024/12/20/nato-through-time-podcast-nato-2099-with-dr-florence-gaub 

Read Florence on futurism, geopolitics and the risks of stumbling into wider war: 
https://english.elpais.com/international/2026-03-03/florence-gaub-natos-futurist-you-can-slide-into-a-world-war-even-if-nobody-wants-it.html 

For our collaboration with the Epstein Book Club who are running our Andrew Lownie Episode see here: https://www.epsteinfilesbookclub.com/the-british-component-disorder-podcast-cross-post/  

For summer recess, we return to our favourite episodes of all time where we explain the very essence of our conception of the Enduring Disorder as a period in which Disordering Neo-populists have come to power and have made the world more disorderly so they can stay in power. If you didn’t hear this when it came out on Sept 19, 2023--when we launched--I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now.

Over the past few decades leaders like Trump, Orban, and Bolsonaro have ridden a wave of popular outrage to rise to power.  But what came first: the Neo-Populists or the era of Global Enduring Disorder?

In this episode we chart the rise of the Neo-Populists, their impact on global order, and what we can do to stop them. Sean Wilentz explains the difference between real populism (like Bernie Sanders) and ‘faux’ or neo-populists (like Trump), while Anne Applebaum takes us through the missed opportunities and co-ordination failures of the post-Cold War years.

For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For more from Anne Applebaum, visit https://linktr.ee/anneapplebaum   

For more on Sean Wilentz, visit https://history.princeton.edu/people/sean-wilentz 

For more on Jonathan Winer, visit https://www.mei.edu/profile/jonathan-m-winer 

For more on Jamie Shea, visit https://www.chathamhouse.org/about-us/our-people/jamie-shea

This week, Jason is joined by a real life Mega-Orderer--Jamison Firestone, acclaimed lawyer, author, and activist. He witnessed firsthand Russia's descent from the promise of the Yeltsin years into the corruption and authoritarianism of Vladimir Putin's regime.Firestone was also the employer and close colleague of Sergei Magnitsky, whose death after exposing a massive tax fraud inspired the Magnitsky sanctions now used by democracies around the world to target corrupt officials and human rights abusers.Jamison joins Disorder to discuss his powerful new memoir, Rule of Lies, and to unpick piece by piece from his insider tales how Russia's descent into kleptocracy happened.Jason and Jamison also reflect on their mutual friend Sir Bill Browder, the legacy of the martyred Alexei Navalny, and why Navalny's extraordinary moral courage bears comparison with figures such as Socrates and even Jesus.

As they Order the Disorder, they turn from diagnosis to solutions. Should the West finally confiscate the roughly $300 billion of frozen Russian state assets? Why has Belgium remained one of the principal obstacles? What can be done to make it give up the Goose that lays the Golden Egg? And could coordinated international action overcome the legal and political barriers? If democracies are serious about confronting authoritarianism, this conversation argues that defending the rule of law requires more than sanctions—it requires the courage to act.

Producer: Sam Cluley

Subscribe to our Substack https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube -https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:Jamison Firestone:https://jamisonfirestone.com/

Buy Rule of Lies:https://www.harpercollins.com/products/rule-of-lies-jamison-r-firestone

Justice for Sergei Magnitsky:https://russian-untouchables.com/eng/Punish Putin campaign:https://punishputin.com/

Listen to our first Disorder episode with Sir Bill Browder:https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/a36160dede2b990a59c34c3c4e8eeece

The Magnitsky Act (U.S. Congress):https://www.congress.gov/bill/112th-congress/house-bill/4405

In this episode of Disorder latest, Jason updates on the for-ever war in Iran and the Straight of Hormuz and how the disorder we are experiencing over there is conceptually connected to the bigger concepts of the Disorder pod: the Global Enduring Disorder and the rise of the Neopopulists. He does this via a conversation on the Disinformation Detox with Nolan Higdon, which we air with our own intro. 

Producer: Sam Cluely 

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 

Show Notes Links: 

The U.S. and Iran standoff over the Strait of Hormuz intensifies https://www.npr.org/2026/07/15/nx-s1-5894582/us-iran-updates  

Disorder is through to the next judging round for the News, Politics & Current Affairs category of the British Podcast Awards. You can see the full longlist here: https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/longlist-2026  

Vote for Disorder in the British Podcast Awards listeners choice here https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting  

Watch The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vFfnhFNsJ0  

Subscribe to the Disinfo Detox: https://www.youtube.com/@DisinfoDetox 

Subscribe to Gaslight Gazette: ⁠https://www.nolanhigdon.substack.com⁠  

Learn more at: ⁠https://www.NolanHigdon.com 

Fresh from her trip to Ankara for the NATO Summit, Jane rejoins Jason to discuss what she learned about NATO, the mood among the allies, and why the Europeans are moving further away from Trump. Plus: Farage’s resignation and by-election, how that is connected to the Marine Le Pen court ruling in France, and then to Order the Disorder: Jason argues that we should look no further than the America’s Founding Fathers and the principles they articulated and lived by.

For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Vote for Disorder in the British Podcast Awards listeners choice here https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting 

Watch The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vFfnhFNsJ0 

Listen to our episode with Frank Vogl - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/ZDU5ZDRjNTItMDg5ZS0xMWYwLWI5ZGItN2YwZDA5MmE4ZWVh 

Listen to Amb. Minuto-Rizzo about the NATO summit: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1bHVQ2n7sLUUQnxtLPdjvv   

On Farage and British dislike of political sleaze - https://x.com/yougov/status/2075501188036899216?s=46&t=Tbkgp9CYb-P2gQf2YVZ19g 

We start the episode with Jason’s reflections on the July 4th holiday and America’s Big Birthday. For more on this check out the first YouTube below in the Links. He believes that our Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers and men of tremendous principle who trusted experts. Therefore, to celebrate the holiday, he wanted to have someone on the pod who has lived his life courageously, respectfully, and with principle. Therefore, this week, Jason is joined by Dr Hal Bradley, reformed drug smuggler, former informant for the FBI, and author of more than 10 books. Dr Hal and Jason discuss his life story, his take on the Epstein files, and how understanding and co-operation can help us Order the Disorder. 

Hal showcases his revolutionary and principled life and his conversion story. He also explains how despite Trump’s big bluster about tackling drug smuggling across the border, little has been done. So what does a former drug smuggler think should be done to truly Order this Disorder? Listen to find out.

For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Watch Jason explain how The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers:

 https://youtu.be/_vFfnhFNsJ0 

Watch/listen to Jason with Dr Alon Ben Meir talking about the situation in Iran and the status of the MoU and regional ceasefires as at the end of June: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL5UNy6Ruc&list=PLbO4E8pRmwIedcPIBowZQkbjzxJ0AXKjI 

Watch Jason on Dr Hal’s show - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtUvVDRQ4zs 

Get Dr Hal’s book, A Fox In the Lion's Den: A Fictionalized and Fact-Based Autobiography of the Life of Dr. Hal A. Bradley, here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fox-Lions-Den-Fictionalized-Autobiography/dp/B09SBY5GCY 

In this episode of Disorder, Jane Kinninmont is joined by Peter Salisbury, Adjunct Assistant Professor at Columbia University, and Senior Fellow at the Century Foundation, who has spent years tracking the illicit supply chains fuelling the war in Yemen. His upcoming report, launching at King's College London, is essential reading for anyone trying to understand how the Houthis went from a little-known insurgent group to a force capable of disrupting global shipping.

Jane and Peter discuss how the Houthis learned to manufacture their own drones and missiles rather than simply receiving them from Iran, the outsized role China now plays in supplying the components that power this new generation of weapons, the fragile Saudi-Houthi truce since 2022, and what the changing economics of drone warfare mean for the future of arms control.

For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: Sam Cluley

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

The report that Pete is talking about can be found here: https://tcf.org/content/report/beyond-the-axis/ 

This week it’s time for listener questions! And pls note that members of the Mega Orderer’s club get their questions answered first. Jane and Jason discuss: why Russia is pretending to be happy with Starmer resigning, the potential role of Turkey, Saudi, Pakistan and Egypt in Ordering the Strait of Hormuz, Elon Musk becoming the world’s first trillionaire, whether Iran and America will ever agree on anything, the US’ behaviour throughout the World Cup, and why western governments seemingly can’t get anything done and what happened to bold elected centrist leaders.

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Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Read: Big Tech is stoking unrest in the UK. Why? https://www.ft.com/content/0f3e33d2-0b9e-481d-a911-245d8cc01a9c?syn-25a6b1a6=1 

Listen to Keen On: The Trouble with Trillionaires: Mordecai Kurz on Capitalism, Democracy, and the Second Gilded Age: https://www.keenon.tv/videos/the-trouble-with-trillionaires-mordecai-kurz-on-capitalism-democracy-and-the-second-gilded-age/ 

Don’t you just love when decency interjects and sometimes people do the right thing, the orderly thing, the sane thing? Well voters of Makerfield have chosen order and unity over disorder and division, and now Starmer has done the right thing. The Orderly Transition to Burnham is on its way and it is an example of a prime opportunity for the institutions of Britain to showcase themselves to the domestic and international publics as orderly and functional.  So Jason starts by introducing this existing moment and then pivoting to regularly scheduled programming about international ordering that still works: NATO.

With the NATO Summit in Ankara fast approaching, will the fractures between Europe and America be on full display? Or will one of the world’s most successful alliances in human history come together and make a show of unity?

To preview the summit and survey global affairs from peacemaking to defence spending, Jason is joined by Ambassador Alessandro Minuto-Rizzo, the President of the NATO Defense College Foundation and former Deputy Secretary General of NATO (2001-8). The duo discuss what will come out of the Ankara communique, the future of Italian politics, and as they Order the Disorder - the role of NATO in the years to come. Ambassador Minuto-Rizzo puts forth his solutions to the Ukraine war, various ideas why giving up territory might not be that important these days, and his overall philosophy of optimism and keeping calm and carrying on. It might not be how everyone would look at global affairs, but it is very interesting that a man with five decades of high level diplomatic experience has this approach.  Hope you enjoy.

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Producer: George McDonagh

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Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For more on the work of the Foundation: https://www.natofoundation.org/

For more on Amb Minuto-Rizzo’s background and that of the foundation: https://www.natofoundation.org/about-us/

For more on Amb Minuto-Rizzo’s comments on global security alliances: https://www.natofoundation.org/regions-at-the-centre-cooperative-security-cooperation-versus-fragmentation/

For a great pod on what Burnham needs to do for an Orderly transition: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-fourcast/id1542796249?i=1000773763527 

In this episode of Disorder Latest, Jason is joined by Thomas de Waal, journalist, author, and Senior Fellow at Carnegie Europe who has spent decades studying the politics, conflicts, and societies of the Caucasus and wider Eurasian region. His book ‘The Caucasus: An Introduction’, is a must read for anyone looking to understand the region—its ethnic diversity, its ties to Russia, its cults of personality, and its geopolitical importance.

Jason and Thomas discuss the  June 7 Armenian election—won by pro-EU incumbent Nikol Pashinyan--, the Trump negotiated peace deal between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and whether Georgia is moving permanently away from Europe and the West.

For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at ⁠disordershow.com/club⁠

Producer: Sam Cluely

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Get Thomas’ book at ⁠https://www.amazon.co.uk/Caucasus-Introduction-Thomas-Waal/dp/0195399773⁠ 

Listen to our previous episodes with Armen Sarkissian, Armenia’s former president ⁠https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/OWJlOTI5YTYtMDBjZC0xMWVmLTg0N2MtMmIzNDcwZTAyMDQx⁠ 

And for more on the Armenian election: ⁠https://apnews.com/article/armenia-election-result-pashinyan-7168ab86aa0d9f2c967171c91c9611c9⁠ 

For a special live edition of Disorder, we come to you live from the United Nations Association – UK, where Jason, Jane and Mark were  joined by a special guest-- Alexis Akwagyiram, Managing Editor for Africa at Semafor.

Mark and Jason discussed the latest disorder in the UK and if Andy Burnham might be able to bring Order to Britain? But will he even be able to order its bond markets? Jane and Jason look at the reigniting of fighting between Israel and Iran, and what happens next, and Alexis and Jane discussed the fallout from the disorderly war on inflation and food prices in Africa and provide the latest on Nigeria and the role of African countries in restoring some global order.

For a full, unedited edition of the episode with full q and a, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For full list of Makerfield Election candidates visit https://makerfieldcandidates.co.uk/ 

Watch Wes Streeting on News Agents https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VUDvtZWrtg 

Over the weekend Iran launched waves of missiles at Israel, while Israel retaliated against military targets and a petrochemical complex in Iran, as an uneasy two-month truce appeared to break down.

Trump had earlier appeared keen to avoid an escalation, telling Bibi not to respond to the first barrage of Iranian missiles. Under the surface, Israel wants to complete the job in Lebanon, but Trump wants all the wars over so he can cover up his failure. We start the ep by Jason explaining these late-breaking developments and then introducing the electoral fight between neo-populism and progressivism in one of Latin America’s most geopolitically important countries.

As we pivot to the feature topic, we ask what is going on in Colombia's presidential election and will it jeopardise the country's peace agreement which former Disorder guest Jonathan Powell helped negotiate many moons ago? Might we see multiple Latin American countries moving to the neo-populism right helped by Trump - including the return of the Bolsonaro family in Brazil? What are the interests that the Trump administration is pursuing in Latin America? Is it mostly just about critical minerals or is it more of a shared worldview? And how can people in the continent pursue democracy and rights when the US and China are competing to get hold of their critical minerals? 

This week Jane meets distinguished human rights lawyer Viviana Krsticevic, executive director of the Center for Justice and International Law, founder of GQual and member of the UN’s independent fact-finding mission on human rights in Iran. They discuss how Vivi's childhood in Argentina under the military junta left her with a determination to fight for democracy, gender equality and human rights after seeing the costs of authoritarianism firsthand, and they discuss strategies for advancing freedom and justice despite the current age of political disorder and democratic backsliding. In the Ordering the Disorder segment they discuss, Latin America's role in global politics and how the key aspects of multilateralism are highlighted by the current search for the next UN Secretary General - likely to come from Latin America.

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Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For background on the electoral situation in Colombia pls consult:

https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/reaction-colombia-heads-toward-polarizing-runoff/

And https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/may/30/colombia-presidential-election-vote-resurgence-political-violence 

Check out Vivi's interview with IranWire on human rights abuses in Iran: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFM9Z5Zyhxc

For more on Colombia, read this Q&A from the International Crisis Group: https://www.crisisgroup.org/qna/latin-america-caribbean/colombia-united-states/right-and-left-vie-victory-colombia-under-us-shadow

And for more of Jane's recent takes, check out her recent interview with Lewis Goodall on LBC on how Trump is redefining "ceasefire" - and not in a good way - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrjB2q7qYQQ

It is our favourite time of the month, listeners questions!

This week Jason and Jane take listener questions around topics including: Will Netanyahu be ousted in this year’s elections? Have the Israeli anti-Bibi bloc learned the lessons of Hungary before the next parliamentary elections? Can Reform UK be trusted to do what they say they will? Is a constantly changing leader now the norm in UK politics? Does Trump’s trip to China change anything? And what’s the Disordering role of the UAE in global politics? And should the West give the UAE a tough love approach to help them play the role of global citizen better?

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club

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Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Pls find out about the 8 June 530pm in Westminster live podcast event and join the Mega Orderers club or Pay for Substack here to attend here: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/disorder-live-podcast-at-un-association 

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events like the 8 June 530pm Westminster event, visit disordershow.com/club

Jane’s recommended The Economist Bagehot column on whether Britain is ungovernable https://www.economist.com/britain/2026/04/22/sir-keir-starmer-cannot-govern-he-has-only-himself-to-blame 

Read Will Self’s new column on Starmer as mentioned by Jane https://x.com/wself/status/2054946706723160363 

The crises across our disordered world are more interconnected than ever. As states pursue their own self-interest, genuine collective action for mutual shared benefit seems further away than ever before. How can we ever hope to Order this Disorder?

To try, Jason is joined this week by his old friend David Tafuri. David previously served as the US Department of State’s Rule of Law Coordinator for Iraq, was an outside foreign policy advisor to President Obama’s campaign in 2008, has worked for the United Nations in Turkey, and is the founder and current President of the US-Kurdistan Business Council.

The pair start with the latest in Ukraine--following up on David’s recent visit there. Then they embark on a whistle stop tour of the Middle East, exploring the latest in Iraq, Syria, Israel, and Lebanon. And… as they Order the Disorder, the discuss the situation in the Gulf, how the Gulfis and European Allies could help open Hormuz, the need to tackle misinformation, and why the Trump admin needs to put aside its destructive unilateralism and work more closely with traditional American allies on Ukraine and the Iran war.

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Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club

Watch more on David’s attempts to address misinformation in Ukraine:  https://youtube.com/shorts/TWRqQNojKvg?si=dRu81hERC5-HYGNz

More on David’s career here: https://www.afslaw.com/attorneys/david-tafuri 

Plus his reporting from Ukraine’s frontline: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DYX_0c8kTjl/?igsh=eTY2dHh4Zm44eTJp 

Today marks the 18th anniversary of the arrest of Ryan Cornelius, a British businessman stuck in jail on dubious charges over a real estate development project gone awry. And yet… the UK Government is doing nothing substantive to get his release, too scared to pressure a close ally. Does this episode showcase a key aspect of the Enduring Disorder: medium power democracies are too scared to pressure their wealthy allies to abide by the rule of law?

Originally sentenced to 10 years for a ‘crime’ -- that the first Emirati judge that saw the case declared was unsubstantiated -- he remains still detained after his initially unproved sentence was extended by a further 20 years. The UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention has found his detention to be arbitrary, and his family has spent years campaigning for the UK and UAE authorities to secure his release. 

To find out more about this case and what it reveals about international relations, Jason is joined by Chris Pagett, Ryan’s brother-in-law. This is the first in our ever-other Thursday Disorder Latest series. Chris and Jason discuss what the UK Government should (and has so far failed to) do, the ways that automatic sanctions could order the disorder, and why cases like this spread in our era of Enduring Disorder and in turn spread yet further Disorder.

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Producer: George McDonagh

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To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club

Read: MPs call for sanctions over British man detained in Dubai for 17 years

https://www.irishnews.com/news/uk/mps-call-for-sanctions-over-british-man-detained-in-dubai-for-17-years-HSOY7IGZZRJGNEO5TA3KGFZUYA/ 

Read: Dubai prisoner: Wife pleads for help to get husband home https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62162686 

Read: Families of UK prisoners detained abroad urge ministers to keep promises of help https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jul/16/families-of-uk-prisoners-abroad-urge-ministers-to-keep-promises-to-help 

Watch Chris in conversation with Iain Duncan Smith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9QXdNGsj_A 

A brilliant article from a few years back that tells the story in its entirety: https://www.economist.com/1843/2021/12/15/the-dubai-debt-trap 

This week on Disorder, in a slight break from the Mayhem in the UK over the possible Leadership challenge to Starmer, Jane catches up with the President and CEO of the Chicago Council on Global Affairs and host of the Deep Dish podcast, Leslie Vinjamuri. Leslie and Jane used to work together at Chatham House. They start by discussing Leslie’s final project for Chatham House where she worked with a host of experts to analyse how rising powers, middle powers and US adversaries see the international order as well as new possible ideas of global Order. 

Surprise, surprise mega-orderers, the conversation proves the depressing result that we already know! -- i.e. that there are no serious alternative visions of order that are emerging and no non-neo-populists are putting forth compressive visions of global order. Will the continuance of the Enduring Disorder therefore be the hallmark of our times?

Probably yes :-< On a brighter note, Leslie thinks the US will revert to a more “normal” politics in Trump’s wake. Jane is not so sure: she and Leslie discuss why the UK hasn’t been able to “get back to normal” under Keir Starmer and how the breakdown of the political centre is making it harder and harder to address the long-term economic issues that underpin Britain’s current malaise. 

This week we also delve into Trump’s trip to China; the role of Europeans in enabling China, and how different camps in Washington are looking at the China trip - with think-tankers pretty skeptical that it will make any difference, while business leaders are eager to join the trip to what is, after all, the world’s second biggest market for most of them. No matter what happens there we must ask is Europe working with or against the US’s China policy? And will any coherent transatlantic order emerge out of a re-alignment over China?

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Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club

Leslie’s podcast, Deep Dish - https://globalaffairs.org/commentary/podcasts/deep-dish-global-affairs-podcast 

Leslie on Bloomberg about Trump and Xi - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2026-05-11/us-iran-tensions-flare-ahead-of-trump-xi-meeting-video 

Leslie’s Chatham House project on competing visions of the international order - https://www.chathamhouse.org/2025/03/competing-visions-international-order 

In the May 7, 2026 UK elections, Reform won biggly. They did so well that they even stole the show from the ascendent Celtic nationalists in the periphery. Gaining thousands of councillors in England, becoming the second largest party in Wales and the joint second biggest in Scotland. Meanwhile, in Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland the biggest parties (Plaid Cymru, SNP, and Sinn Fein) are all separatists. This has ushered in disorderly ‘five party politics’ in England and a real threat to the union emanating from a Celtic periphery led by parties that wish to break up the UK. 

On this special episode of Disorder we ask: does the UK have a future at all anymore? Will it be very disorderly? And what are Reform’s actual policies?

To find out – and in our attempt to present a range of views on Disorder – Jason and Mark are joined by Alan Mendoza, Chief Advisor on Global Affairs to Reform UK. The duo push Alan to clarify Reform’s actual policies around local government, migration, and Reform’s attitudes to Brexit. Jason sees Reform as Disorders, but Alan makes a full throated and quite eloquent case as to why he sees Reform as Orderers rather than Disorderers. 

Hopefully the debate is podcasting at its best, filled with respectful disagreements that elucidate the underlying differences in world views. Either way, Reform UK is here to stay so we might as well understand them.

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Producer: George McDonagh

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Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

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To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club

How the winner-takes-all voting system has turned on Labour and the Tories: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxpqyndqwlo

How Reform won votes from Swansea to Sunderland

 https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwy2nz4gwj5o

Hear Alan’s previous appearance on Disorder: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/YTk0MzNmZDQtY2JhMS0xMWVmLWJjYTQtOGJjMjMxNmNhZTli 

Something smells royally fishy. The stench has been detected wafting from Sandringham all the way to Balmoral. The scandals around Lord Mandelson and former Prince Andrew have showcased that the rich and powerful have been operating beyond the law and that royal sinecures have been used to obscure the provenance of ill-gotten gains.

Consider: In America, you make your money. But in Britain, you can use it for access. If the Epstein affair has shown us anything, it’s that a royal seal of approval is infinitely valuable. Friendship with a top working Royal takes one from the shady jet set into the global elite establishment. And if you can buy a royal seal of approval - like Epstein did with former Prince Andrew -- you get the keys to some of the most influential people in the world.

To discuss Epstein’s relationship with Prince Andrew, Ghislaine Maxwell and Sarah Ferguson, Jason is joined this week by Andrew Lownie, author of the Sunday Times number 1 Best Selling book, Entitled: The Rise and Fall of the House of York. The pair look at what made Andrew’s personality so easily corruptible, how Andrew’s narcissism and megalomania were fueled, the role of Royal Reputation Washing across the globe, and why there could be more nasty revelations about what the royals have been up yet to come. Plus, as they Order the Disorder, they discuss making the royal family more accountable, transparent, and better at serving the British people.

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For more on our partnership with the New Books Network visit: ⁠https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder⁠ 

Producer: George McDonagh

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Show Notes Links:

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit ⁠disordershow.com/club⁠

Get Andrew’s Book, Entitled: The Rise and Fall of the House of York ⁠https://www.amazon.co.uk/Entitled-bestselling-devastating-biography-written/dp/0008775451

This week’s episode was recorded before the Trump Assassination attempt at the White House Correspondents dinner, but Jason inserted a late breaking addition to reference it at the start. In the regularly scheduled programming, Jane and Jason take a range of listener questions on topics like: Is the Iran War on or off? Does the downfall of Victor Orban mean a turn away from neo-populism and authoritarianism? Are Starmer’s incremental moves towards the EU Mega Ordering or not? Will he be forced out of office on May 8? And will the dynamics of the Iran war and higher oil prices change things between Ukraine and Russia? And what is Israeli ‘hasbarah’=public diplomacy and does it fuel antisemitism?

And as they Order the Disorder, the duo experiment with a quick fire round where they discuss: What might actually happen on US-Iran negotiations, Trump’s tanking approval ratings, his constant firing of staff, Virginia Redistricting, and what that means for this year’s Congressional midterms.

To tell us more about Disorder win a chance for money, visit disordershow.com/survey

Write us to get your question answered at Disordershow@gmail.com

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases, exclusive access to live events AND A GUARENTEE WE ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS, visit disordershow.com/club

Watch Jane’s Iran series here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsRO_Izf4VcJkN3vlpbFdTYnx0lpZyPus

Listen to Jason on The Bunker discuss Orban’s defeat and its implications for US and EU politics here https://podcasts.apple.com/in/podcast/populism-will-eat-itself-how-orb%C3%A1ns-defeat-changes-the-game/id1496246490?i=1000761547591&l=ml

Listen to Jason on BBC Scotland talk about the Assassination attempt on Trump at the WHCA: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002vm42

Watch Jason recapitulate the Disorder Paradigm on a sister show Democrats v Dictators:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFJekUfZ6wg

Over the last week, a spate of Jewish communal targets have been attacked in North London. According to its founder Theodore Herzl, Zionism was supposed to normalize the position of Jews in the world. Has Zionism failed or is a new consensus form of Zionism still the answer to these outbursts of Disorderly Antisemitism?

In 2026, April 21 is Israel’s Independence Day. These are tough times for the Jewish State in international public opinion. By all accounts it has made mistakes, violated international law, committed war crimes. But it has also been defending itself against an unprecedented multipronged assault.  Other states don’t risk losing their international legitimacy because they have bad or immoral leadership.

Support among Americans and Europeans for Israel is down and even young diasporic Jews report increasingly negative appraisals of Israel.  To investigate the situation in the Middle East, the position of Jews in Britain, and the rise of anti-semitic attacks on Britain’s Jewish community, I am joined by returning Champion Phil Rosenberg. He is the President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews.  Phil is a former Labour councilor for West Hampstead and previously Director of the Faiths Forum for London.

In today’s episode, we wish to use this commemorative day to look at a few deeper questions:  How is Antisemitism surging globally and why? How does  Antisemitism manifest itself in the UK and Australia and how it is fascinating how differently it portrays from anti-Americanism? What is Zionism? Is it relevant in today’s world? Is it part of an orderly world or is it a Disordering ideal? What is the Role of international entities and Diasporic Jews in supporting Israel’s right to defend itself while criticizing certain policies? 

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club

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Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

A Partial list of the North London Arson Attacks: https://x.com/philr_r/status/2045605612072132860?s=46&t=cw4unVonh1qJ-YBPzgIl2Q

Origen Story on the Meaning of Zionism : https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/zionism-part-1/id1624704966?i=1000618863154

Call Me Back Pod.. Analysts find in the Iran-Israel-America War confirmation of their pre-existing political beliefs: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-continuation-of-war-by-other-means-with-tal-becker/id1539292794?i=1000761725136 

Iran directed arson attacks in Australia and ‘fanned the flames’ of antisemitism, country’s spy chief says: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Faustralia-news%2F2025%2Faug%2F26%2Firan-directed-arson-attacks-in-australia-spy-chief-says-ntwnfb&data=05%7C02%7C%7C605a5ea26d9b48554e2408de9d6ca385%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C639121287069184737%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1wSJ%2BxaXICsYlRBvsu2Rbd4MJ08DRc%2BrqlbAIv%2Fv0HU%3D&reserved=0

The most recent Sunday morning April 19 attack: https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/attempted-arson-attack-at-kenton-united-synagogue-in-northwest-london-pfbikif1

And: https://x.com/philr_r/status/2045782024338768271?s=46&t=cw4unVonh1qJ-YBPzgIl2Q

What is the Board of Deputies: https://bod.org.uk/ 

Phil’s Bio: https://bod.org.uk/who-we-are/phil-rosenberg/ 

Phil’s Article: https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/were-family-not-critical-friends-rosenberg-sets-out-boards-israel-stance/

History of Israel Independence Day: https://nationaltoday.com/israel-independence-day/

Trump and Tehran’s series of mismanaged posts stall progress towards peace

Patrick Wintour https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/apr/18/donald-trump-tehran-war-mismanaged-posts-progress-peace 

The Chinese are cleaning our clock when it comes to lithium batteries and EVs, while the Russians still dominate at nuclear energy? Why? Why can’t the West play the geopolitics of climate change better? Why can’t Western countries work together to prepare for, mitigate, and profit from the upcoming cataclysm? Why are we sleepwalking off the cliff?

 To find out, we return to friend of the show and former Co-host Arthur Snell returns to Disorder to explore the themes of his new book, Elemental: The New Geography of Climate Change and How We Survive it. The overall approach of the book showcases how the Enduring Disorder paradigm epitomizes the collective action challenges democracies face as they compete against each other and see-saw from one policy to another while dictatorships tend to think much more long term when it comes to how to prepare for the opportunities and challenges of climate change.

This investigation comes at a highly relevant time as the Iran War has made clear how the geopolitics of energy, electricity, AI Data centres, critical minerals, and climate change are the top table issues of our day. Arthur and Jason start off talking about the situation in the Straight of Hormuz and how developments there will affect the energy transition. They quickly pivot to a discussion of the geopolitics of the Arctic and Antarctic, especially the scramble for the Northwest Passage.  

Jason points out that China has been strategic about how to benefit from climate change, while Western nations have only notched tactical successes, but have not systematically prepared for the top table challenges that climate changes poses for humanity.

As they Order the Disorder, Arthur explores who the approach of Antarctic of international legal treaties could be expanded to other domains and how we could international, socialize, and demilitarize the geopolitics of climate change.

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Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Relentless sun and ruthless populists: how the climate crisis will change the next 20 years https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2026/mar/04/arthur-snell-interview-geopolitics-climate-crisis-book-elemental?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Elemental: The New Geography of Climate Change and How We Survive it https://www.hachette.co.uk/titles/arthur-snell/elemental-the-new-geography-of-climate-change-and-how-we-survive-it/9781035412945/

Listen and watch Jason explain ‘How will the Iran war reshape global supply chains?’  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoZyAP5tFXo

As the Iran conflict enters its sixth week and Trump’s ultimatum is upon us, what is Trump’s real plan here? Is it merely to Disorder, or is he genuinely seeking to negotiate his way out of this conflict?

To discuss the latest, including the role of Europe and whether the Strait of Hormuz can be theoretically and practically opened by military force, Jason is joined by Michael Stephens, senior fellow at Global Nation and an associate fellow at RUSI. He ran to be an MP for the Tories in Putney; he speaks Hebrew and Arabic; and has decades of expertise in the Gulf States, Syria, and inside the UK government. Michael and Jason discuss the theological background to the Islamic Republic’s ideology, the positive role Britain can play, whether the mere existence of this conflict helps the Chinese exert more power globally, and what the Europeans could do to Order the Disorder if they wanted to.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club

To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club

To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey

Listen and watch Jason explain ‘How will the Iran war reshape global supply chains?’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoZyAP5tFXo

Listen and watch Jason explain, ‘Why did Trump fire Pam Bondi?’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id8jarTtdFI

Want to learn more about Shi’i Islam and how it informs the Islamic Republic’s decision making, read Moojan Momen’s brilliant An Introduction to Shi’i Islam: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-Shii-Islam-History-Doctrines/dp/0300034997

To listen to our previous interview with Michael visit https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/Zjk5NzljMzItOGNkNS0xMWYwLWFiNGEtMDNjMjExN2VkNWU3

This week, Mark Lobel and Jane Kinninmont take listener questions on topics including: the future of Iran and the Iranian people, the decline of Britain’s naval power, whether NATO can survive Trump’s ongoing attacked, what role the Enduring Disorder played in causing Brexit, and how to solve global inequality.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Give feedback on Disorder here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/CX7JB3W 

You can get in touch with Mark, to host or speak at your event here: https://www.mark-lobel.com/getintouch 

Chatham House Prize | Chatham House – International Affairs Think Tank https://www.chathamhouse.org/2026/03/sudans-volunteer-led-aid-network-receives-2025-chatham-house-prize  

Donate to the Emergency Response Rooms - Donate | Support Sudan's Emergency Response Rooms — SUDAN MUTUAL AID COALITION — SUDAN MUTUAL AID COALITION - https://www.mutualaidsudan.org/donate 

Article that makes the case for the Iran war - https://apple.news/Ac9j4I-MHSFuj6tgL1zCiUA 

Senate foreign relations committee on the folly of waiving sanctions on Iran’s oil - https://www.foreign.senate.gov/press/dem/release/shaheen-schumer-reedwarner-warren-statementon-trump-administrationdecision-to-ease-iran-oil-sanctions 

The Times on European leaders considering a scenario where the U.S. makes a deal with Russia and turns its back on Europe - https://apple.news/A-NCiRk_2QVCXwWoStWlppg 

U.K. Parliament’s Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy says U.K. must plan for a transition to greater European leadership of NATO - https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/111/national-security-strategy-joint-committee/news/212889/mps-and-lords-call-for-more-clarity-on-governments-plan-for-uk-national-security/ 

Frankly podcast on “What To Do As The World Falls Apart” which Jane found super interesting - and which highlighted the need to think now, in the current window of relative stability, about the institutions of the future, before the institutions of today actually fall apart (referenced in our discussion on NATO) - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-great-simplification-with-nate-hagens/id1604218333?i=1000756316022 

The world is steeped in conflict. From Ukraine to the Middle East to Sudan, so what role do UN Peacekeepers play in a world with little peace? And what role can they play

To discuss, Jane Kinninmont is joined by Jean-Pierre Lacroix, the Under-Secretary-General for Peace Operations. They discuss the current role of UN peacekeepers, what they can and cannot do, and how they can find a role in a world where fewer peace agreements are being made.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Read more on UN Peacekeeping here: https://www.visionofhumanity.org/un-at-80-why-it-needs-to-reinvigorate-peacekeeping/ 

Read more on why UN Peacekeeping works here: 

https://cic.nyu.edu/resources/conflict-and-violence-prevention-works-how-do-we-sell-it-politically/ 

Jane adds:

The Institute for Economics and Peace has highlighted the long-term downward trend in funding for peacekeeping and peacebuilding around the world: 

“Between 2008 to 2024, peacekeeping and peacebuilding funding declined by 26 per cent, with peacebuilding falling 39 per cent (from $8.7 billion to $5.3 billion) and peacekeeping down to $5.8 billion”

As a result, “Despite a nearly unchanged number of missions over the past two decades (60 in 2008 vs 61 in 2024), the number of deployed peacekeeping personnel has halved – from 187,586 to 94,451 – largely due to funding shortfalls.”

Meanwhile the same institute estimates in its 2025 Global Peace Index that “The economic impact of violence is now US$19.97 trillion, or 11.6 per cent of global GDP, driven by rising military spending and conflict-related losses.”

In 2026, those costs are going to be way higher because of the enormous damage already being done to energy infrastructure in the Gulf and to global trade flows.

So part of the ordering solution needs to be spreading an understanding that cutting the funds for peacekeeping, peacebuilding and conflict prevention is quite literally a false economy.

This case is powerfully made in a great new article from NYU’s Centre on International Cooperation:

Few news headlines describe when a city’s homicide rate falls quietly over a decade, when a community at risk never quite tips into gang recruitment, when a potential terrorist is redirected by a counsellor rather than arrested by a counter-terrorism unit, or when a conflict is narrowly averted. Successful prevention is often invisible. And that is why it often keeps losing to the politics of urgency.”

The Iran war rages on, oil prices continues to surge, and inflation spikes. When will we be in a global recession? Do we see stagflation coming back? Can military action open and secure the Strait of Hormuz? Or is that also a Chimera? Are the Disorderers doing this all on purpose do they benefit from all this Disorder?

This week, Jason Pack and Mark Lobel discuss the big picture economic problems of the Iran war, including: America’s doomed insurance and military proposals to get oil moving through the Strait of Hormuz again, the collosal impact of continued closure on the global economy; the situation on America’s and Britain’s relationships with their Gulf allies; what rising oil prices and swelling Russian coffers means for Russia’s war on Ukraine; why China could be a surprise Orderer in this (if they chose to play the part); Starmer’s triangulating response to this crisis; and – as they Order the Disorder – the role Britain and Europe could play in mediating this conflict.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Listen: OIES Podcast – The US-Israeli War with Iran: Continuing Impacts on Oil Markets

 https://open.spotify.com/episode/2kLZsWi4x8d6LU7d1le91J?si=0tVfxYmdRRS7QYx7GhZNbQ&ct=1&t=1 

Nations Respond With Caution to Trump’s Call to Send Warships to Strait of Hormuz: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/15/world/middleeast/trump-strait-of-hormuz-iran-warships.html 

Is Trump having another Taj Mahal moment on our YouTube channel: 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/V6HTwiNG_Ck

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Well, the quagmire has set in. The Iran war is in its second week and Oil Prices are above $100 a barrel and even though it was clear from the first shots being fired it is now manifest that Trump has no strategy. And his ability to act with impunity shows that constraining leaders to act with strategy rather than just opportunism is a key aspect of democracy and accountability.

We are trying to focus on solutions, to see what is working in Britain, and to chat through various amorphous topics, such as: ‘What is Strategy?’ and why does democracy have a communications problem.

In 2011, statistics show that 11 democracies suffered backsliding into autocracy. Today: that number is in the mid-40s. With Trump’s America at the peak of that shift, what can be done to reverse that trend? And better yet, what can be done to protect all democracies going forward? Can institutions be made in advance that could protect democratic backsliding before it happens?!?

To build on our recent episode with Graham Zellick on how democracy is protected in the UK, Jason is joined by Richard Symons. Richard is the founder of Compass & Co —a UK-based strategy and communications firm helping leaders with policy, corporate strategy, and clear messaging in complex environments. 

They discuss the pressing issue of democratic backsliding, what it means, what causes it, some innovative solutions being proposed, including in Wales, and as they Order the Disorder, they look at the need for a ‘right to facts’ type law, and why bold leadership is needed to maintain democracy.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For more on compass and Co https://www.compass-strat.com/ 

Read: The Revenge of Power: How Autocrats Are Reinventing Politics for the 21st Century - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Revenge-Power-Autocrats-Reinventing-Politics/dp/B096WDF625/ 

Read: Has Wales found the solution to Autocracy? https://justhinkin.substack.com/p/has-wales-found-the-solution-to-autocracy?r=3cs2wr 

Read: What's Really Driving America to In’soul'vency? https://justhinkin.substack.com/p/whos-driving-the-insoulvency?r=3cs2wr

Listen to our episode with Sir Geoff Mulgan to hear more about his Right to Truth idea: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/Y2Y1ZTFhOTAtZjJjNC0xMWYwLTljMTMtYzc5MjBhZmIxYTU0 

Listen to our episode with Elie Honig where similar issues are addressed in the US context and how the powerful are held to account via the Special Prosecutor system: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/NmU0ZGIzZTQtYjhhMS0xMWYwLTk0NWQtZWZlN2MwMWI1YWJm 

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

It is a crazy week for the Middle East and the World. For those wanting the Iran War content mentioned at the episode start where Jason appeared on three different podcasts addressing various aspects of the conflict (its congressional illegality; the parallels with the No Fly Zone over Libya; and the Epstein distraction aspects) please consult those links in the shownotes, we think those podcasts are awesome.

But back to the matter at hand, Trump certainly knows how to dominate the news cycle but mostly he does so via means that illegal and impeachable in the United States. Why then are the powerful able to be held to account in the UK (e.g. Lord Mandelson and former Prince Andrew) but not in the USA? 

No one is above the law in Britain. TRULY. Not the Lords, not the Princes of the realm. And Parliamentarians don’t decide who is prosecuted and the Government can’t protect its friends. And this analysis isn’t BS. It is literally vouched for by the people who have designed and operated the current legal system.

With the arrest of Lord Mandelson and Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, Britons can TRULY say that their legal system does actually seriously investigate powerful people who have done something wrong and that the system is beyond partisan influence. 

What makes the British legal system work? And what are its vulnerabilities? Is it more fragile than we realise?

Today, Jason Pack is joined by Professor Graham Zellick, a distinguished public and constitutional lawyer, university leader and judge, to explore the UK’s rather remarkable constitution (or lack of). They look at the independence of bodies like the Crown Prosecution Service; how and why they are beyond political interference; and whether they need to be protected from a potential future Neo-populist leader. And as they Order the Disorder, they debate whether these bodies need to be strengthened yet further, or if Farage or an equivalent could dismantle them as quickly as Trump has done in the US. They explain that Britian has built into its ‘constitution’ a lot of the solutions already and that there is actually much that can be learned from it on the world stage.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Iran content as discussed in the intro to the episode:

Why the Iran war is congressionally illegal ‘Jason Pack debating Trump’s NSC Exec Dir on BBC 5 Live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ0rg-Dmw5M

But What if Iran Disintegrates Into Chaos? Great Espionage, Where's the Wisdom Now?

Jason Pack on the Mossad Files with Dan Raviv https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/but-what-if-iran-disintegrates-into-chaos-great-espionage/id1796257169?i=1000753187080 

The 2011 Libya No Fly Zone is the correct analogy for the 2026 aerial war against Iran https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIbfFKJYLOo

#50 - Epstein, Iran, and Who Benefits When the World Burns Jason on Regilio v Everything.  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/50-epstein-iran-and-who-benefits-when-the-world-burns/id1834972973?i=1000752957478

For more on Graham visit https://www.academicspeakersbureau.com/speakers/graham-zellick 

Listen to our episode with Elie Honig where similar issues are addressed in the US context and how the powerful are held to account via the Special Prosecutor system: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/NmU0ZGIzZTQtYjhhMS0xMWYwLTk0NWQtZWZlN2MwMWI1YWJm 

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/06/world/europe/iran-london-spying-arrest-jewish-community.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

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Trump is clearly bored of peace.  So bored. Shortly before the United States and Israel were poised to launch an attack on Iran later in the week, Israeli and American intelligence spotted, on Saturday morning local time, that the entire Iranian leadership including the Supreme Leader Ali Khamanei (and likely his son Mojtaba) as well as key IRGC commanders were going to meet to discuss the ongoing negotiations strategy in central Tehran. Hence, The United States and Israel therefore decided to adjust the timing of their planned attack and decapitate most of the country’s leadership.

So now, the entire Middle East is at war, Trump has practiced another regime decapitation operation without Congressional approval and Iran has rained down missiles across the Sunni Gulf and Israel killing civilians and targeting key infrastructure like airports and tourist hotels. 

Jane and Jason ask why, when and how? Is this whole thing just a disorderly distraction from Trump’s appearance in the Epstein files and his desire to give Pam Bondi cover for her ongoing coverup? Jason thinks that is the primary motivation. Jane and Jason agree that Trump is unlikely to have an end game and that regime change has never worked solely via airpower and that even with a popular uprising that may now emerge, the situation could resemble Libya, which hasn’t exactly had the greatest track record since Western airpower helped a popular uprising oust Qadhafi.

As Jane and Jason try to Order the Disorder, they talk about solutions and where Europe, the UN, and regional allies could try to steer the region towards a more peaceful outcome. Critically, they discuss the issue of the lack of depth (i.e. America and Israel running out of missile interceptors) and how the political and military realms may interact to provide solutions and offramps, especially if the Gulfis and Europeans mediate. Time to head to the Omani Embassy in Geneva… that is my favourite place to be.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

The C.I.A. Helped Pinpoint a Gathering of Iranian Leaders. Then Israel Struck:  https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/01/us/politics/cia-israel-ayatollah-compound.html 

At Least Eight Killed After Iranian Missile Hits Central Israeli City: 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-security/2026-03-01/ty-article/.premium/at-least-five-killed-after-iranian-missile-hits-central-israeli-city/0000019c-a962-d4dd-a9df-bbe250410000 

Few will mourn leader of ‘evil’ regime Ali Khamenei, says UK defence secretary: 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/mar/01/uk-defence-secretary-john-healey-few-will-mourn-ali-khamenei-iran-us-israel

Iran Is Built to Withstand the Ayatollah’s Assassination

The U.S. and Israeli militaries are targeting Iran’s leaders—but that may only strengthen the state.: https://foreignpolicy.com/2026/02/28/iran-khamenei-ayatollah-assassination-israel-us-war/?tpcc=must_read_email&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=%5BMust-Read%5D%20Obit%20Khamenei%20-%20022826&utm_term=iran_israel_conflict_interest_90day_emailopen 

Why are the US and Israel attacking Iran? What we know so far: 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/2/28/us-and-israel-attack-iran-what-we-know-so-far

For this bonus episode, we invite the orderers to hear a lightly-edited recording of Jason Pack appearing on our sister pod, KeenOn America, where Andrew and Jason discuss Jason’s belief that there was a genuine cover-up by Anglo-American media and the US and UK governments of the Jeffrey Epstein case—not orchestrated by the CIA, but by prosecutors who didn’t want to go after powerful people, journalists who didn’t want to go against an oligarch who could sue them for libel, and a system where orders of magnitudes too much wealth has accrued to too narrow a sliver of global elites. So despite being anti-conspiratorial, Jason concludes that the cover up and the conspiracy were real.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For more on KeenOn go to https://www.keenon.tv/episodes/ 

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Podcasts mentioned:

Disorder Episode 167 — "Epstein Survivor Rina Oh on Getting Justice: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/MThlZTFkZjgtMGI4NS0xMWYxLWJkMWMtOGY0YjYzYzZiZGYw 

Disorder Episode 168 — "How Can Epstein's Victims Get Closure? with Civil Rights Attorney Lisa Bloom: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/M2M2NThlNjAtMGI4NS0xMWYxLWExOWItMDcxODNmNmQ5OTky 

Bobby Capucci's "Jeffrey Epstein: The Cover-Up Chronicles" — deep dives into the Epstein files: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jeffrey-Epstein-The-Coverup-Chronicles/dp/B0DZPKRYFG 

Jewish Currents — left-wing Jewish treatment of Epstein's connections to Ehud Barak and the Mossad: https://jewishcurrents.org/on-jeffrey-epstein 

Peter Bale interview (Episode 2813) — discussed the Epstein media cover-up and Michael Wolff's attempts to interest mainstream media: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUNxStxgdxg 

Here at Disorder, we love solutions, so much so that we’re going to be putting even more solutions into our episodes, by trying to zoom out from developments in the news to potential solutions. This week we start our treatment of news items and then zooming out to solutions with the arrest of former Prince Andrew, the latest from the Epstein files, and the inaugural meeting of Trump’s Board of Peace.

In this episode, Jane and Jason are brimming with ideas, including: how to better police the role of British elites when they play the role of Butlers to the world of dark money and act as useful idiots in reputation laundering; how we could possibly learn from the Olympic spirit to create our very own Mega Ordering ‘diplomatic Olympics’; why Europe needs to step up and play the Ordering role; and how they – and other democracies globally – could set up their own ‘diplomatic board of peace’ to counter Trump’s largely farcical iteration.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, to get our bonus episode answering Jonathan Bull’s question about Jason’s elitism and political mobilization in America, as well as ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To join our Mega Orderers Club, to get our bonus episode answering Jonathan Bull’s question, as well as ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

LISTEN: Epstein and the Capitalist Conspiracy - Jewish Currents Podcast https://jewishcurrents.org/epstein-and-the-capitalist-conspiracy 

Something’s Rotten in the Norwegian Royal Family - Vanity Fair https://apple.news/A1A_GZVoYR1mIJeh5TYqXZQ 

Watch Jane about the Munich Conference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6SjrRsPpUQ&t=751s 

New law will 'criminalise lying' by senior ministers: https://x.com/skynews/status/2024746880656163082?s=46&t=Tbkgp9CYb-P2gQf2YVZ19g

Trump gathers members of Board of Peace for first meeting, with some U.S. allies wary – NPR  https://apple.news/AFjSdW9dCTu6SdN_niMDNHg

Who is at the Board of Peace Conference: https://x.com/mike_wagenheim/status/2024439124845895684?s=46&t=Tbkgp9CYb-P2gQf2YVZ19g 

This is the second in our two-part series shining a light on Epstein survivors and their real-life stories. In this episode, Mark Lobel is joined by civil rights attorney Lisa Bloom, who represents many of Epstein’s victims. Bloom reveals how she has recently been approached by new potential clients in the wake of the recent release of yet more documents from the Epstein Files. She calls Epstein “one of the most prolific sexual predators the world has ever seen”. She discusses why the American Justice system has not helped the powerless achieve justice against the rich and powerful. She explains how this needs to be fixed.

As Mark and Lisa Order the Disorder, she outlines what justice would look like for the Epstein victims and how we as a world can improve how we acheive justice for victims of grooming and sexual abuse. Lisa proposes the concrete step of advocating for a blanket ban on the statute of limitations for sexual abuse.  

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For more on Lisa and her work visit: https://thebloomfirm.com/lawyer/lisa-bloom/ 

READ: Chuck Schumer's Floor Remarks Introducing Virginia's Law To Help Provide Justice For Survivors Of Abuse

https://www.democrats.senate.gov/news/press-releases/leader-schumer-floor-remarks-introducing-virginias-law-to-help-provide-justice-for-survivors-of-abuse  

READ: Todd Blanche says review of Jeffrey Epstein sex-trafficking case ‘is over’

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/feb/01/epstein-files-todd-blanche-deputy-ag 

READ: Epstein files reference 'nine-year-old victim' in disturbing unredacted emails seen by lawmakers

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/unredacted-epstein-files-girl-9-mention-emails-b1270395.html 

The theatrical play 'Here There are Blueberries' discussed on the show:

https://www.stratfordeast.com/whats-on/all-shows/here-there-are-blueberries 

READ: Melinda French Gates References a 'Reckoning as a Society' over Bill Gates Epstein Claims

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/celebrity/articles/melinda-french-gates-references-reckoning-180726489.html 

You can get in touch with Mark, to host or speak at your event here: https://www.mark-lobel.com/getintouch 

Hey Elon are you listening? And King Charles and former Prince Andrew, what about you? We want actions, not words. Order isn’t gonna magically appear, powerful people need to help bring it about. This episode has tips for how the most powerful could use their wealth and power to try to Order the Disorder.

 As the implications of the Epstein scandal grows ever larger and the whole affair presents terrifying perspectives from which to view our geopolitics over of the last two decades, we here at Disorder, would like to spend real time focusing on survivors, rather than just paying them lip service. Hence, we have two shows this week focusing on their stories.

In today’s episode, Mark Lobel talks to Asian-American artist Rina Oh about how she was groomed and drawn into Epstein’s network - and how he used grooming tactics to manipulate countless young women. She is writing a book in which she will soon ‘reveal all’ about the man she describes as a “raging paedophile”. Rina is incredibly brave to be speaking out and we applaud her and are honoured to be platforming her.

To finish the episode, as Mark and Rina Order the Disorder, Rina talks about what must happen next for justice to be done for hundreds of victims – specifically she describes how law enforcement should go after what’s left of his network. 

Donate to the fund for Carolyn Andriano’s memorial: https://www.gofundme.com/f/carolyn-andriano-memorial 

To immediately get part two of this series with Lisa Bloom – an attorney who represents several Epstein victims, join the Mega Orderers Club now: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Subscribe to Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For more on Rina and her work visit: http://rinaohepsteinfiles.com

For more on the US Virgin Island Mental Health Fund, read: https://www.usvimentalhealthfund.com/

Read: Bondi’s Incompetence Is the Latest Insult for Epstein’s Victims: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/02/14/opinion/bondi-epstein-justice.html

Read: Musk Offers To Pay Defense Fees Of Anyone Who ‘Speaks The Truth’ About Epstein And Is Sued: https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2026/02/09/musk-offers-to-pay-defense-fees-of-anyone-who-speaks-the-truth-about-epstein-and-is-sued/

If you value this kind of content and want early release episodes, pls join the Mega Orderers Club: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

You can get in touch with Mark, to host or speak at your event here: https://www.mark-lobel.com/getintouch 

As this show predicted at the end of 2025, Jeffrey Epstein has become the Disorderer-in-Chief of 2026 – with Keir Starmer’s credibility and ability to govern the latest victims of the document release. So how could there possibly be any Order emerging from this Disorder? It is only possible if McSweeney is ejected from Number 10. That is the only answer and the longer Starmer keeps him on, the weaker he will become relative to the Labour backbench.

This week, Jason and Jane look at the ongoing fallout from the Epstein files on British high politics and why we need more transparent and more courageous leaders. Plus: the duo investigate the rise of women in leadership roles within the UN, examine upcoming US negotiations on both Russia/Ukraine and Iran/Nuclear, present Jason’s observations about the depoliticisation of Trump’s America, and answer questions from members of our Mega Orderers Club. Finally, as they Order the Disorder, they imagine a world with new institutions that could actually track what diplomats (current and former) do with state secrets and their privileged access to power.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events (and the chance to ask your questions), visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Watch Jason discuss “Do the Epstein files spell the end for Sir Keir Starmer?” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMgrUgOjGbk 

Statement from the Arms Control Association on New START and what the U.S. should do now: https://www.armscontrol.org/pressroom/2026-02/statement-end-new-start-requires-more-coherent-approach-trump-administration 

Global Women Leaders’ Voices report on women in multilateralism: https://www.gwlvoices.org/resources/wim-26 

Hear real life stories about meeting the Pope, briefing the Prime Minister, and creating legislation to safeguard future generations!

As we settle in to 2026, it feels like we are stuck in a permanent state of Disorder:  Trump’s power grabs around the world, the timidity of Starmerism, and the lack of future-focused collective solutions to the world’s most pressing issues like AI regulation and climate. But… could another world be possible? Could something like mega-ordering spread throughout the world? If so, how do we get there?

This week, in association with the New Books Network, Jason is joined by Sir Geoff Mulgan. Sir Geoff is one of the world’s leading thinkers on social change, innovation, and the future of democracy. He’s the founder of Demos, former head of the UK Prime Minister’s Strategy Unit, and the founding CEO of Nesta, the UK’s innovation agency. His latest book, ‘Another World Is Possible: How to Reignite Social and Political Imagination’ (Hurst), is a sweeping and provocative examination of how we might redesign our political and economic systems to meet the crises of the 21st century — and why doing so is both necessary and achievable.

Jason and Geoff discuss why our leaders need to spend more time on long term thinking, and how ‘collective intelligence’ can help us address the world’s most pressing global challenges. They discuss how bland centrists like Starmer are actually quite unrealistic in their realism. Plus: why we must regain trust in experts, the need for more engineers and scientists in leadership positions, and the role religion could play in bringing about Mega Ordering. And as they Order the Disorder, Mulgan explains why a public ‘Right to Truth’ is key to saving democracy.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Get Geoff’s book, ‘Another World Is Possible: How to Reignite Social and Political Imagination’:

 https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/another-world-is-possible 

For more on our partnership with the New Books Network visit: https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder 

Read Geoff writing on future generations: https://tial.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/TIAL-Future-Generations-Mulgan-Bennett.docx.pdf 

His pitch for rights to truth: https://www.geoffmulgan.com/blog/blog-post-title-two-p722w 

Follow Geoff’s substack: https://geoffmulgan.substack.com/publish/posts/published

Listen to George Monbiot on Disorder: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/ZjU5MmVjOTYtZmFhZC0xMWVmLWFiZWUtODNlZjQ0YWYwZTgz  

How Marco Rubio Went from “Little Marco” to Trump’s Foreign-Policy Enabler: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/01/19/marco-rubio-profile 

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

It’s telling to hear NATO’s future is not “guaranteed” according to a former NATO boss. After a jaw-dropping US threat to take Greenland shocked the world. President Trump’s first year back in power is also overshadowing the United Nations' 80th milestone. Prompting calls to retool the world’s top diplomat. 

In this episode of Disorder, hosted by Mark Lobel, the former head of NATO tells Disorder we should make the United Nations Secretary-General the "chairman" of the Security Council. Brazil’s former Ambassador to the United Nations says the role should be a single mandate term of six or seven years, "to retain the willingness to displease certain sources of power”.

Recorded at a special UNA-UK event, George Robertson and Ambassador Antonio Patriota reveal how Donald Trump’s disorderly approach is causing a major re-think of organisations and leadership in the world. Speaking in the same building that ushered in the United Nations General Assembly in 1946, exactly 80 years ago this month. 

The Brazilian Ambassador to the UK didn't hold back ... 

On Venezuela: 

“I feel very uncomfortable as a South American to witness an intervention that is a flagrant violation of international law.” 

On Nigel Farage joining climate talks: 

“I don’t think (he's) very eager to engage on this topic” 

On presenting the Nobel Peace Prize to Trump: 

“As a South American, I felt embarrassed by this gesture, because I don’t think it enhances anybody’s dignity to do that.” 

Plus - George Robertson tips a British politician as the next big thing ... and it’s not who you expect!

Stay news of a special live event with Disorder and the UNA-UK for mega orderers, and to join our Mega Orderers Club and come along, and get ad-free listening, early release episodes, and bonus content, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

You can get in touch with Mark, to host or speak at your event here: ⁠https://www.mark-lobel.com/getintouch⁠ 

To join our Mega Orderers Club in honour of Greg, for ad free listening and early release episodes, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

UNA UK website www.una.org.uk

UN official article summarising the event - https://news.un.org/en/story/2026/01/1166783

Gordon Brown’s call to action for democracies to reinvigorate the international order, highlighting the Attorney General’s speech at the event - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/jan/20/donald-trump-greenland-world-plan-leadership

Devex video interviews on Insta - https://news.un.org/en/story/2026/01/1166783

Sky News - 'Is the US attacking the UN's principles?' (Interview with the President of the General Assembly) https://news.sky.com/video/is-the-us-attacking-the-uns-principles-13495782 

The Guardian - 'Guterres warns of ‘powerful forces’ undermining ‘global cooperation.’’ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/jan/17/antonio-guterres-warns-forces-undermining-global-cooperation-un-80th-anniversary-secretary-general-multilateralism-international-law 

NPR - 'United Nations leaders bemoan global turmoil as the General Assembly turns 80.’ https://www.npr.org/2026/01/18/nx-s1-5678366/united-nations-general-assembly-80-london#:~:text=LONDON — Just over 80 years,the importance of international cooperation. 

Full speech by SG: https://webtv.un.org/en/asset/k1u/k1uo45t198

This episode is dedicated to Disorder’s only ‘Founding Sponsor’, Greg Merriman, who passed away from Pancreatic Cancer last week. He was a software entrepreneur, a wine lover, and an American-Anglophile. To Jason’s mind he was a classic example of that old time Midwestern decency, which the world is sorely lacking these days. He was a true Mega Orderer and will be sorely missed.

This week, Jane and Jason analyse the endgame scenerios of Trump’s sabre rattling over Greenland and what the protests in Iran might lead to. They sketch opportunities for how the Europeans could step up and lead at this moment – if only they chose to. And as they Order the Disorder, Jane discusses Donald Trump's disregard for international law and how we could try to make International Law Great Again.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad-free listening, like the true Mega Orderer Greg Merriman, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To join our Mega Orderers Club in honour of Greg, for ad free listening and early release episodes, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

How Marco Rubio Went from “Little Marco” to Trump’s Foreign-Policy Enabler: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/01/19/marco-rubio-profile 

For More on Greenland: https://x.com/ilvestoomas/status/2011593795373318648?s=46&t=Tbkgp9CYb-P2gQf2YVZ19g 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/01/trump-greenland-risk-global-conflict/685616/ 

To kick off the year, Disorder held our final live podcast recording at the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), as part of our one-year partnership with the think tank. Hear Jason Pack in discussion with Disorder co-host Jane Kinninmont, RUSI Associate Fellow Arthur Snell, and Jonathan Eyal, Associate Director at RUSI. They discussed the rather disordering implications of Trump’s actions in Venezuela, whether it might embolden China and Russia to behave the same way in their ‘spheres of influence’, and whether Britain can continue to play a Mega Ordering convening role, as geopolitics are potentially realigning into a ‘might-makes-right’ and ‘spheres of influences’ phase.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, to get a full recording of the event including live listener questions, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To join our Mega Orderers Club, to get a full recording of the event including live listener questions, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Join Jane at her event, UNGA at 80: From 1946 to Our Future https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/unga-at-80-from-1946-to-our-future-tickets-1975305412663?aff=oddtdtcreator

For more on RUSI: https://www.rusi.org/ 

And Jonathan Eyal’s great work: https://www.rusi.org/people/eyal 

Smartphones have revolutionised warfare, and we are still learning exactly the implications of this. The extent of our full spectrum dependence on Wi-Fi and the internet is profound. Military organisations routinely rely on civilian infrastructure to operate digitally. Now, with AI accelerating the pace of change in tactics, strategy, and targets even further, what does that mean for war? And how civilians participate in it? And what nodes of connectivity can become enemy targets?

To find out, Jason is joined this week by Matthew Ford, author of ‘War in the Smartphone Age: Conflict, Connectivity and the Crises at Our Fingertips’. Brought to you in partnership with the New Books Network, this episodes focuses on how technology, particularly smartphones and digital communication, has transformed military strategies and civilian involvement in conflicts. Jason and Matthew explore the topic looking at the case studies of: Hamas; the ongoing war in Ukraine; vulnerabilities in Britain and the West more generally; and the role of civilians in modern warfare. 

And as they Order the Disorder, they return to the oft-cited need for better information resilience and media literacy.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Join us at our live event in RUSI on January 8th: for details on the event https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-what-disorder-will-2026-bring.html 

Yet to attend the event you need to join the Mega-Orderer’s Club or the Pay For substack and RSVP through a special form available on either platform: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/disorder-podcast-live-with-jane-arthur 

Get Matthew’s book https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/war-in-the-smartphone-age/ 

For more on our partnership with the New Books Network visit: https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder

For this special partnership episode with Andrew Keen from KeenOn, Jason and Andrew discuss what Disorder we can expect in 2026. Jason crowns Mark Carney as 2025’s Mega Orderer-in-Chief and fears that even from the grave Epstein will be 2026’s Disorderer-in-Chief. The show ends with our looking ahead to the New Year with the Hebrew song, ‘Ba Shana HaBa’ah’ song by Yoav Oved. You can check out more of his operatic cantorial singing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OolsTq5ZNNw 

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Join us at our live event in RUSI on January 8th: for details on the event https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-what-disorder-will-2026-bring.html 

Yet to attend the event you need to join the Mega-Orderer’s Club or the Pay For substack and RSVP through a special form available on either platform: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/disorder-podcast-live-with-jane-arthur 

For more on KeenOn visit: https://www.youtube.com/@KeenOnShow 

In this festive edition of Disorder, our hosts Jason Pack, Jane Kinninmont and Mark Lobel reflect on a Disorderly 2025, and preview what could be an even more Disorderly 2026. They gather around the Yuletide fire and shoot the breeze, then discuss personal Christmas traditions, the biggest moments of Disorder throughout the year, while also pointing to some moments of hope that emerged. 

As they Ordered the Disorder, they highlight the need for leadership and Jason returns to his desire for a collective grass roots ordering movement pushing for towards a better future, and why human connection will help us find Order in the new year. The show closes with some beautiful cantorial music giving us some hope for the New Year, while also reflecting our sorrow over what has happened in Sydney.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link (and get access to our January 8th event): https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Join us at our live event in RUSI on January 8th (Mega Orderer membership needed for attendance) https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-what-disorder-will-2026-bring.html 

Yet to attend the event you need to join the Mega-Orderer’s Club or the Pay For substack and RSVP through a special form available on either platform: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/disorder-podcast-live-with-jane-arthur 

To attend Jane’s UN event, visit https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/unga-at-80-from-1946-to-our-future-tickets-1975305412663?aff=oddtdtcreator 

You can get in touch with Mark, to host or speak at your event here: https://www.mark-lobel.com/getintouch 

Listen to Ep 155. Can Canada become the world’s mega orderers? With Marci Surkes https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/YzQ2ZDhjNzQtYzg4NS0xMWYwLWJhMDItMzNiNDI3MTVmMDBh 

Watch Jason on From Global War on Terror to the Global War on the Jews https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pY9KSoQDHc 

The show features our looking ahead to the New Year with the Hebrew song, ‘Ba Shana HaBa’ah’ song by Yoav Oved. You can check out more of his operatic cantorial singing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OolsTq5ZNNw

Are we witnessing rising Islamic militancy in Bangladesh? Or could it become a model for other developing countries?

A nationwide celebration is underway. It’s Victory Day for Bangladesh’s 176 million people. Fifty-four years ago today -- December 16th, 1971 -- the former state of East Pakistan became the modern, independent nation of Bangladesh.

But few people are pleased with the trajectory Bangladesh is currently on. What’s been happening this past 15 months has shaken this country to its core. On August 5th, 2024 protests over government job quotas escalated into a wider anti-government movement, with a resulting violent crackdown leading to the ousting of the long-time ruler, Sheikh Hasina. She now faces the death penalty if she returns. Her whole political party, the Awami League, has been banned too.

Now the Muslim-majority state faces perhaps the most significant fork-in-the-road moment since its independence. The February 2026 election. Can the caretaker leader and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Muhammad Yunus pull it off? Will it be free and fair?  It is possible that stability and democracy will be restored. It is also possible that an Islamist takeover and the cancellation of Democracy will ensue.

To find out how the election could not only reshape contemporary Bangladesh’s political foundations but also South Asian stability, security cooperation and geopolitical rivalries, Disorder co-host Mark Lobel is joined by three experts on the ground in the country. 1- Debapriya Bhattacharya-- Economist, public policy analyst and Distinguished Fellow at the Centre for Policy Dialogue in Dhaka, Aasha Mehreen Amin -- joint editor at The Daily Star, and Iftekharuz Zaman -- Executive Director of Transparency International Bangladesh.

Although we don’t hear about it much in the Western press, investors and policymakers the world over certainly have their eyes peeled on South Asia’s second largest economy and what it decides to do next. We hope you the Orderers enjoy this exclusive journalistic content. 

If you like more deepdives like this and appreciate the effort we are putting in please:

PLEASE join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

[Join the pay for substack for the 8 Jan event]

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

You can get in touch with Mark, to host or speak at your event here: https://www.mark-lobel.com/getintouch 

Aasha's 'No Strings Attached' column: https://www.thedailystar.net/author/aasha-mehreen-amin 

National Survey of Bangladesh: https://www.iri.org/resources/national-survey-of-bangladesh-september-october-2025/ 

Citizen's Platform for SDGs, Bangladesh: https://bdplatform4sdgs.net/ 

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Join us at our live event in RUSI on January 8th https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-what-disorder-will-2026-bring.html (You need to join RUSI or the Mega Orderers Club or Paid for Substack to attend)