Learn how to diversify your magic career and discover why corporate gigs might not be the golden ticket they’re often made out to be. Join host Jonah Babins as he guides you through the captivating world of alternative markets for magicians in this episode of Discourse in Magic. We’ll dissect the allure of corporate events and uncover the real challenges that come with them, from their seasonal nature to the complexities of rebooking. This is an eye-opener for anyone who believes that corporate shows are the pinnacle of a magician’s career.

But that’s not all—we’ll broaden your horizons by exploring other lucrative avenues. Imagine securing a restaurant residency with nightly performances, or entertaining at weddings where magic makes the evening unforgettable. Theaters offer the chance to perform for large audiences, often with impressive earnings, while colleges provide vibrant and enthusiastic crowds. House parties can lead to multiple bookings, and performing at religious establishments like churches and synagogues opens up yet another realm of possibilities. Whether you’re a seasoned performer or just starting out, this episode will inspire you to think outside the corporate box and find success in diverse markets.

1. Bigger dollars for corporate events

2. They are classy and awesome looking events

3. They feel great

1. The gigs are inconsistent

2. They want a new show every time

3. Endless logistics to manage

Unlock the secrets of trade show magic with Danny Orleans, a master magician whose career spans from children’s theater to corporate stages. You’ll gain actionable insights into how Danny transitioned from performing at kids’ birthday parties to captivating professional audiences at trade shows. Listen as he shares his journey, highlighting key strategies and influential mentors like Eugene Berger and Paul Gertner who helped shape his career.

Discover the often-overlooked opportunities in trade show magic, and learn how Danny navigated this niche market to secure and maintain high-profile bookings. From his initial break with a Canadian printer company to his successful techniques for integrating marketing messages with magic routines, Danny offers invaluable advice for magicians aspiring to thrive in the trade show arena. This episode is packed with tips on using technology for lead capture and the importance of blending seamlessly into the business environment.

Finally, we discuss the evolving landscape of modern magic, including the impact of social media and televised magic shows on the industry. Danny shares his thoughts on the challenges of performing in high-stakes environments like trade shows, where rejection is common and resilience is key. Additionally, you’ll hear about quality resources and communities, like a dedicated Facebook group, that can support your growth in trade show magic. Whether you’re a budding magician or a seasoned performer, this episode is a treasure trove of wisdom and practical advice.

Danny Orleans is  a versatile magician renowned for his expertise in trade show magic.. Danny discusses the challenges and strategies for making a career in magic, highlighting his early successes and the affordability of education and living costs in the past. We explore his journey from birthday parties to becoming a professional magician, emphasizing the opportunities in trade show magic and providing insights into marketing and pricing for aspiring magicians.

We focus on the unique attributes and strategies of successful trade show magicians. We discuss how integrating seamlessly into the business environment, both in appearance and demeanor, is crucial for attracting corporate clients. The conversation highlights the importance of blending a marketing message with magic routines to captivate and qualify leads without overwhelming the audience. 

We examine the evolution of magic tricks and the practicality of incorporating them into a magician’s repertoire. We explore the criteria for evaluating a magic trick’s effectiveness, such as its ease of use, portability, and suitability for various performance settings like Instagram or live gigs. Additionally, we discuss the importance of understanding the intended audience and context when purchasing magic tricks. 

Jan Rose
Leah Orleans

https://www.facebook.com/groups/tradeshowperformers
http://dannyorleansmagic.com/
https://www.instagram.com/dannyorleans/

What if charging $250 per show is the very thing holding you back from building a $100,000 magic business? This episode of Discourse in Magic, hosted by Jonah Babins, dives into the powerful strategy of reverse engineering your way to a six-figure income in the magic industry.

Drawing from his unique background in pure math and his experience running a successful magic mastermind, Jonah breaks down the essential numbers and strategies you need to elevate your magic career. Whether you’re curious about the ideal number of bookings or questioning the feasibility of your current rates, this episode is packed with actionable insights that will transform your business approach.

Join Jonah as he shares enlightening conversations with fellow magicians during strategy sessions and mastermind meetings. Discover why sticking to rates like $250 or $400 per show could be the very obstacle in your path to financial success. From understanding your market positioning to identifying the right niche, Jonah provides practical math and strategic advice to help you hit — and surpass — the $100k mark. If you’re serious about refining your business strategy and making your magic career flourish, this episode is a must-listen!

https://discourseinmagic.com/mastermind-invitation/

Today Jonah tells you about Unconventional.fun 2: Magicland. He’ll explain to you what this is, how it came to be, and then give you six reasons why this may be something that you want to be a part of. 

Six months ago, Ben Trane and Jonah launched the first ever eight-bit video-game virtual-magic convention. What that meant was that not only did you have all the cool parts of a convention, like lectures and shows and things like that, but the thing that they did was create a virtual world, kind of like an old video game, where you would mingle around the world with arrow keys. When you got close to other attendees, you could jam with each other. You could hang out because you could see each other’s cameras and hear each other’s voice. So it was kind of like a real magic convention but placed in a video game world. If you wanted, you could go to enjoy the lectures and panels and shows but you could also hang out with the cool kids in the back jamming or just connect with some of your favorite magicians and hangout and talk like you would at a real convention. It was awesome. They had 250 magicians but made two big obvious glaring errors that they are not going to make again.

The first big, huge mistake that they made was that they had 13 hours of lectures and shows and panels but they didn’t record a single thing. Which is funny because this is magic 101… record your shows and record your stuff!

The first reason why they didn’t record anything was because they were worried that it was all going to crash completely. It was earlier in the whole zoom world. The second reason why they didn’t record it was because they wanted to make it a live event, a kind of in-person thing, so everyone would be there. But what they didn’t realize was that there’s people all over the world and what’s two o’clock for them in the afternoon was maybe the middle of the night for somebody else. So a lot of people stayed up very late to be a part of the whole entire thing, which was epic but a mistake on their part.

The second mistake that they made was that they built a video game world. Jonah and Ben teamed together with coders and designers to make a world that was whatever they wanted. And with unlimited creativity, with unlimited power, the world that they built was … a convention center. They built a floor of a hotel lobby, and it was awesome, they had a dealer’s room, a main stage, jamming areas, a bar, and a lot of different cool stuff like you would have at a real convention.

But when they decided to do it again, they knew that they had to make something cool. So after the first convention, they sent out a survey asking if people wanted to do it again. And 96% said yes! So they knew they were going to do another one and they knew they were going to have to make some big changes.

The first big change is that they are recording all of the lectures, panels, and shows so you can watch them afterwards if you can’t make it, or like a convention, if instead of a lecture you’d want to meet up or jam with somebody who’s not lecturing at that time, you can totally do that and watch the lectures afterwards.

The second big change is that they built Magicland. It’s a magic themed amusement park. So instead of a dealer’s room, they have a midway. Instead of having a bar, they’ve got food trucks. So now when you walk around the virtual world, you are in a unique place that doesn’t look just like a hotel convention center, but instead it looks like something magical and impossible that has never existed before.

The first Unconventional.fun was a one day eight bit virtual magic convention. And now, Unconventional.fun 2 will be a two day eight bit video game virtual magic convention. And the days that it’s happening are Saturday, February 27th and Sunday, February 28.

Unconventional.fun 2: Magicland is the second ever video game virtual magic convention. Just like the first one, there’s lectures, panels, and shows and also you mingle around with the arrow keys.

When you get close to the other attendees your camera and mic fade into view. So you can jam, you can hang out, and you can spend time together. That means that if you come find Jonah, we can jam and hang out with him. You can also hang out with some of the other magicians that are there. Not only the ones on the lineup.

At Unconventional.fun 2, you can jam with Eric Jones, Suzanne, Caleb Wiles, Asi Wind, Paul Vigil, Moritz Mueller, and so many different magicians that are going to be there.

Ben and Jonah have brought some of the best lecturers together. Not only people who have been crushing in virtual but also just people who absolutely crush it. So not only do they have a John Guastaferro lecture, which is going to be amazing, they’ve got an Eric Jones lecture and Adrian Lacroix lecture. One lecture that Jonah is looking forward to is Asi Wind who will be doing a part lecture, part Q&A called “Fix Your Magic”. You will get to submit your magic problems and Asi will work to fix them and talk about some potential solutions. 

Ben and Johan have pulled together a handful of magicians who have been absolutely crushing it in the world of virtual to ask about why, what, and how they’re doing it and figure out how you can do the same thing. 

The last year and a half of magic has gone through changes that it has never seen before because of the full fledged transition from in-person magic to virtual magic. So you better believe that when they say they’ve got virtual magic shows for you to watch, they have the best virtual magic performers in the world performing. You will get to see exactly what it is that they’ve created over the past year and how you can maybe do the same thing, not by taking their tricks (unless they’re for sale) but to get some inspiration from some really incredible virtual magic performances.

Ben and Jonah built an entire custom world with magic jokes. And with unlimited different bits and pieces that are hilarious. They have food trucks, a midway, games, and performance spaces. Big enough for 500 magicians

This is really the thing that separates this from other conventions in the virtual space is that you really can mingle around and you really can jam with anyone. Ben and Jonah are going to be there. All of the performers on the lineup are going to be hanging out and jamming.

And there’s a really cool feature in this platform where you can search the name of the person that you want to jam with. They’ll come up and then you can go find them. So if you want to jam with Eric Jones, you just search his name, you click on it and it’ll tell you where in the virtual world he is and go and find him. If you want to go jam with Spidey, it’s exactly the same thing, you can search where in the virtual world he is and go find them. If you’ve got a question for Adrian Lacroix or you want to jam with Chris Mayhew or you want to share some tricks with Michael Feldman. Easy! To find them you type their name in a little search bar and then you go find where their little avatar is hanging out.

Every single one of those lectures, performances and panel talks, are being recorded and being given out to you forever. If you just bought this to download the videos afterwards, it would be worth it.

It’s happening February 27th 7:00 PM to midnight Eastern Standard Time and then February 28th is the full day from 9:00 AM to midnight. If you’re interested in Unconventional.fun, Just click the links here to read a little bit about what it’s all about.

We would love to see you there. 

Jonah is joined by Ben Seidman to talk about working as a consultant on Mindfreak, appearing on Fool Us, and learning how to throw out everything you’ve heard when designing your own show. 

Ben doesn’t think his origin story is all that interesting. He was interested in magic and got his dad to buy him a magic kit and he was really bad at it and then he got better. Throughout his early years he says there were two “aha” moments for him that stuck with him throughout his career. The first was the feeling of “crushing” a show and the second was the realization that he was coming up with ideas that nobody else was doing. One of those first ideas, a pick pocket routine he invented when he was 21, would land him his first consulting job on Mindfreak and open the doors to the rest of his future career performing in magic. 

At Mindfreak Ben found himself working between Johnny Thompson and Banachek and for someone so young it was inevitable that he would be feeling some imposter syndrome. But once he offered up ideas that they would say were cool too it was validating enough to allow Ben to give himself permission to admit that the work he was doing had value as well.

Ben’s time as a consultant and advisor helped him to find his footing but performing had always been his goal. Each of his favourite magicians followed what he calls the holy trifecta, they’re very creative, amazing on stage, and also very technically skilled. Checking off those boxes are important to Ben as well as creating emotional hooks with the audience but also keeping it really funny. 

Ben is a passionate advocate for original content. Far too many magicians, including Ben up to a point, have relied on phrases and jokes and lines from other performers. Perhaps it’s from the culture where we get the magic and included is the patter and the instructions tell you what to say and so you say it. But if you’re going to perform magic the only thing you can guarantee will be original will be you. Everyone is performing magic and it’s all just… magic. If you hear a line that another magician says Ben will emphatically tell you that you should never use that line in your own routine. 

Who you are and what you say is vastly more important to your connection with the audience. The things that you say are what create the moments. So look through what you say in each trick and if you’ve ever heard that line anywhere else just cross it out. If you take those things out you still have to fill that space. You will start saying the things that are you because you have to. If you put yourself in a position where it’s sink or swim, something will come out of you. 

Ben also stuck around to share more about how the past year of virtual magic has been for him. One of the things he’s noticed is that it’s much easier to connect with fans of his work. Normally while touring his name alone would not be a huge draw on the marquee. He might have a lot of fans but they’re spread out all over the world. Now thanks to virtual magic they can all gather in the same place. So rather than performing on a live stage to an audience that might not know who he is, he’s been able to perform to fans who know his work and are excited for his unique brand of magic. And that wouldn’t have been possible before virtual magic. 

Ben is quick to point out that virtual magic shows are not the same kind of magic as a netflix special. You have to make sure you are interacting with your audience, that’s the one major strength you have in a virtual show that you can’t do in a pre-recorded tv special. He’ll also warn you about over spending and over producing your show. You don’t necessarily need a five camera setup with expensive lights and a set. There’s no shame in doing your show on your laptop camera and seeing how it works out before investing more money into your tech. Focus on what you can bring first.

David Jerard. David is a magician and mentalist based out of San Francisco. David is also one of the people that Ben bounces ideas off of.

And also Joe Monti. Joe is strange strange man who Ben loves dearly. He also worked on Mindfreak and has a unique perspective and is super goofy. He talks a mile a minute and his brain works just as fast. 

Ben likes that more people have access to magic. There was a time when you only saw magic when you were in the upper crust, now anyone can see magic.

Ben doesn’t like that more people have access to magic. There’s a problem with magic becoming trivialised. Far too many people are putting out magic online before it’s ready to be performed. A moment of magic should be a unique thing but if you can access it non-stop, especially from any level of quality, then it’s no longer this profound and beautiful thing. 

Be Original. 

If you forge your own path and you put things into the world that have not been seen before then people get to appreciate you for who you are as opposed to who someone else is. In your everyday life and in your magic try to create moments of joy for people by being the best human you can and trying to be truly you. The more “you” you are the more original you will become, in life and in your magic. 

Ben Seidman’s Oracle System is being sold by Vanishing Ink and is available now to pre-order at www.vanishingincmagic.com/close-up-magic/the-oracle-system. 

The Oracle System is the only piece in Ben’s repertoire that is available for public consumption so don’t miss out on this unique opportunity. 

The best way to find his tv and video appearances is to just go ahead and google Ben Seidman Videos and you can also visit BenSeidman.com

You can also follow Ben on instagram @benseidman

Jonah is joined by Ben Train, his Toronto Magic Company business partner, to offer up a glimpse of what life is like at the Toronto Magic Company, how it’s adapted to the world of virtual magic, upcoming events they’re hosting, and the lessons that he and Ben have learned after almost a full year of pivoting to the virtual.  

Ben and Jonah launched the Toronto Magic Company four years ago with the mission to share magic with public shows and programming for lay people around the Toronto area. When all live events were cancelled in March 2020 they had to shift the Magic Company to an all virtual environment and now their mission is to simply share magic. Now, thanks to virtual magic, Jonah and Ben are able to share magic not just in their geographic area of Toronto but all over the world, which has really helped to make the work they do a ton of fun. 

For Ben, virtual magic has changed his relationship with magic. In the past Ben has been honest about how challenging live shows can be. With all the prep work, stress, and travelling involved it can really take a toll on someone. Virtual magic has reinvigorated Ben and shown him just how much fun there is to have with magic. Ben feels more creative and more free than he could be on stage, he feels comfortable in his setting rather than feeling nervous before shows and for a variety of reasons this past year has helped Ben fall in love again with magic. 

For Jonah, there’s always been so much mystery when you go to a private event to perform and you’re not always guaranteed a receptive audience. With virtual magic, Jonah has discovered a world of enthusiastic audiences excited to see magic done in a novel way. There’s something very special happening right now and the full potential for virtual magic is just beginning to be realized. 

Shortly after founding the Toronto Magic Company, Jonah and Ben made the decision to move in together as roommates to better coordinate their business projects. So what’s it like living together when each of you are fundamentally very different people? Jonah and Ben pull back the curtain on their home and living arrangement and share stories about how they couldn’t have pulled off this company without the other’s unique input. They also share how they overcome creative differences and lessons they’ve learned over the past several years in resolving conflicts and taking risks. 

Unconventional.fun is coming back in 2021 and this year they’re taking a bold leap into a magic park setting. You might recall that in 2020 Ben and Jonah hosted the inaugural Unconventional.fun virtual magic convention by recreating an 8-bit virtual hotel environment where magicians could mill about and jam in the lobby and attend lectures and workshops. For their very first time doing it they wanted to recreate the familiar setting of a conventional convention, but this year they’re pulling out all the stops and embracing the creative freedom that a virtual environment offers. This year Unconventional.fun is going to Magicland, a virtual amusement park for magicians. More details will be coming out soon so for now you should sign up to the mailing list by visiting Unconventional.fun to be notified when tickets go live.

Jonah is joined by Mat Franco where they get to discuss his dominating performance on America’s Got Talent, opening up a For-Real-Life show in Vegas, and knowing from an early age that Mat was destined to live his dream as a magician.

Ever since he was five, Mat has dedicated his life to learning and performing magic, from show-and-tell in kindergarten, to the college touring circuit, to winning on America’s Got Talent, to producing a show in Vegas. 

Seeing magic on TV, a five year old Mat asked him parents for some magic tricks and soon after he was performing for his kindergarten class. By elementary school he was performing on stage for the local high school and from then on it’s been non-stop performing. He might claim that he went to business school as a backup plan but the reality is he never had one, it’s always been magic.

Tough and ruthless was the name of the game when it came time to get booking to perform on the college circuit and through a mix of good luck, a good show, and being able to speak the language of leadership and business to those who were doing the booking Mat found himself performing for colleges across America. 

The idea for signing up for America’s Got Talent was to be able to get footage of his acts to use to book more gigs at colleges. It was never his intention or belief that he would progress through the competition all the way to winning in the finale. But, as Mat puts it, he was “young, stupid, naive, and tenacious” and able to problem solve his way to adapt the tricks he had in his inner rolodex to performing on the show.  

Mat still considers himself a beginner in magic and it’s that mindset that he believes has helped him to achieve the success he has found. He never had big dreams, the most he hoped for was to make magic and share it with people. At the end of the day it’s all about attitude, personality, entertaining people, interaction, that’s the real magic, that’s the x-factor, that is intangible.

Bill Malone 

Shows like the Carbonaro Effect and Fool Us which are reframing magic for modern audiences in a way that’s positive and uplifting. For a time magic was being associated with cruel pranks online and it’s nice to see it moving away from that.

On the other hand magic is currently suffering from a voyeuristic approach, where people mostly watch magic being done to other people, and Mat would like to see new ways to present magic that allow the person watching it to be more directly involved in the experience.  

I do believe experience is the best teacher. I believe you should follow your passions. And I’m also a believer in good solid technique in whatever it is you’re doing. Not to overlook a good solid base, a good solid background in technique, a toolbox to draw from, that will allow you to create better things. If you get really good at the scales you can write better songs. 

You can listen to Mat co-host the Mind Over Magic podcast with Eric Ditelman
Instagram @matfrancomagic
Twitter @matfrancomagic
Youtube
And be sure to visit matfranco.com

Today, we are talking about the three systems that every virtual magician needs in their business.

A lot of people ask me, how is it that I can have a podcast, and a virtual magic business, and interview people, and coach magicians, and also post on social media everyday, how I do all of those things. And the answer is not that I wake up really early and drink a ginger root tea or have apple cider vinegar at 6AM, none of those things are true. 

The reality is, I rely on systems to make sure that my business grows, even when I’m not putting in the work, and systems are critical for your business because having systems in place, having things in place that work, means that one unit of input doesn’t necessarily mean one unit of output. One unit of input could mean two or five or ten or twenty units of output. 

For many of us, we do what’s called hope marketing, which is we cross our fingers and we hope that somebody inquires on our website or asks us about what we’re doing. And the reality is if we do not have a system to bring people into our business, then we don’t really have a business. We don’t really have something that regularly makes money. We only make money when other people want us to make money. 

So we need to have a system to bring leads into our business. Now you’ve probably been in magic long enough to know that there’s not just one way to do this. It could be social media, you could do ads, you could do events, ticket events, live streams, email outreach, email newsletter, cold calling, referrals… there’s a million different systems that you can have, but just ask yourself right now, do you have a lead generating system? Is there something that if I said tomorrow, I need you to push the button that’s going to bring more leads into your business. Would you know what button to push?

If you do not have an organized system that takes an interested person to an inquiry, takes an inquiry to a phone call, takes a phone call to a pitch, and then a pitch to a close. Then what happens is you basically just cross your fingers every time that somebody asks you about an event. Because you’re hoping that they decide that it’s good for them.

And obviously it’s a two way decision, you know, we’re not deciding if they should hire us, but certainly by having a system, you can be very, very sure about what needs to happen at each phase of the process, instead of hoping that they know what they want, how they want it, when they want it, you decide how it works.

You tell them what you offer, what’s most popular, what they should get. You tell them that you schedule phone calls. You tell them how it works, because otherwise you are beholden to their buying process. If they want to buy later, if they don’t want to buy now, if they’re not interested, if they want this and not that you have to do whatever it is that they want. So instead build out your sales system.

Maybe you’re wondering how it is that I can have a podcast episode every Thursday for the past four years and be a full-time magician and produce ticketed shows and run a coaching program and all of these different things. The answer is outsourcing. I hire out the things that I’m not so good at.

There’s only important bits that I do. I write the posts, I say the podcast, but it’s critically important that I find incredibly talented people to put in positions where they do something better than I could ever do. It was cheaper for me because instead of me spending five hours, hours that I totally could have and should have spent doing way more important things, I spent those sitting in front of my computer editing.

So ask yourself what processes in your virtual business right now are you doing that maybe you shouldn’t be doing. What pieces can you hand off to somebody else that you do not have to do.

These are the three systems that every virtual magician needs. I hope that this was helpful for you. If you want some help doing this, if you want some assistance, then send an e-mail to info@discourseinmagic.com with the word “Upgrade” and I’ll tell you a little more info about the private coaching that I run for virtual magicians.

Jonah is joined by Moritz Mueller where they discuss how to reach out to some of the biggest names in the magic world, different theories of magic and how it can practically apply your work, and how Moritz prepares and learns his own tricks.

Moritz is an incredibly talented magician and, at twenty years old, he’s very young for someone with his expertise and skill. So what is he doing that other magicians aren’t? How has he accomplished in less than ten years of sleight of hand that other magicians haven’t been able to do in twenty or thirty? In this interview Jonah and Moritz talk about coin magic and card magic, how to bump elbows with the best of the best, and what it was like to appear on Ellen! 

Moritz had one major advantage over many other magicians in that his father was already a hobby magician. As Moritz was developing his own interest in magic his father would point out when a trick he was looking to purchase was worth his time or not. Having a magician in the family to help guide his early years meant bypassing a lot of the experimenting that other magicians have to face. By the time he was ready to start performing on his own he already had years of mentorship.

What grabbed Moritz’s attention to magic was the small details. How a very small change in detail can have a major impact on a trick’s effectiveness. Those minute details captured Moritz’s ambitions; he would spend years just practicing and learning all the nuances he could and refining those small details.

Eventually he drew the attention of others who invited him to attend conventions where he would meet some of the biggest names in the magic community and begin learning and befriending them. If you ask him how he’s ended up with so many big names as personal contacts he’ll happily point out that many of the people he’s met in the magic community are very open to being approached and contacted. As long as you approach them with respect and express your feelings and ask a question you might find that a lot of people are more willing to respond in kind than you might think. 

Rather than casting a wide net Moritz focused a very narrow beam early on. It can be very overwhelming thinking that you need to learn all of these many moves to be a successful magician and you can either end up burning out or never developing enough skill in any one move to really be successful. So, being inspired by a famous quote from Bruce Lee, Moritz focused on one thing at a time obsessing over the tiny changes he could do to a single move and it was in coin magic that he discovered was a great playground for him to practice in.

Moritz has a lot to say about coin magic. It’s difficulty stems from how simple it is at its core. There are only so many effects possible and the methods are oftentimes equally simple. But there is a very steep learning curve and so much that needs to be done before it even begins to be deceptive and that is what Moritz finds so interesting. He attributes much of career success in magic to the time he invested in coin magic early on because there is so much work that needs to be done before you can even call it magic. 

Moritz knows that there’s no real “right” way to live your magic life and thinks that what it comes down to is reflection. How often do you stop along your path and actually think if this is the right thing? How often do you question why you are working on a certain routine or a certain move? What Moritz has always tried to do is realize wrong turns as soon as possible by stopping and questioning himself.

Moritz’s advice to you is if you find yourself practicing a lot of things at once and you find yourself so scatterbrained that you can’t keep track of what you’re doing then that might be a sign to keep it simple and focus on one thing at a time. And also read more magic books instead of youtube videos. The theories found in those books will help you understand what you’re seeing in those videos so much more that your entire perspective on magic will shift.

There’s not that many magic theory books out there and Jonah has a whole bookshelf of recommendations that you’ve likely heard mentioned dozens of times in the past on this podcast but Moritz can’t recommend “Expert Card Technique” enough. The theory part is so good that Moritz believes that it’s put so concisely that it’s a very good all rounder of magic theory.  

Jan Logemann – “He is just an amazing close up performer… you can’t really put him in a box, he just does great magic”

Moritz likes that he’s seeing people use gimmicks in ways he hasn’t seen before, especially on Instagram. To an extent where the gimmick is being used in a way that can only work on Instagram.

What Moritz doesn’t like is the overconfidence of new magicians who think that they don’t need to hear what you have to share. 

What is the right amount of the characteristic that you have? What is the right amount of work? It’s really important to question yourself like that.

And capture your own excitement point. That is the most important resource that you have for your magic, your own excitement. That thing that makes you giggle, that thing that gets your heart going, that thing that really inspires you, keep pursuing that and you will get closer and closer to what it is that you want. 

You can follow Moritz on Instagram @moritzmueller00

This is not an episode. This is a thank you. 

2020 was a really, really strange year for everybody. It was a strange year for me, and I assume it was a strange year for you too.

It was a year full of firsts. It was the first time we had our calendars wiped clean. It was the first time that we all did virtual magic shows. And it’s the first time that many of us rose to that occasion. For me, it was a lot of really crazy firsts. All in 2020, we released episodes with Juan Tamariz, Derren Brown, and Teller, which snuck out just before the end.

And the reason I’m recording this episode is to thank you. To thank you all so much for your support, not just your support in this year, not just your support in the last few episodes, but your support in the last few years. Your support in being a part of this from the start, you know, I know many of you have been listening to this since day one, and I know there’s so many different things that you could be doing with your time, so much different content you could be consuming. And I am so glad that you spend it all here with me. So thank you, thank you, thank you so much.

In the past, I’ve done new year’s magic resolution episodes. I used to do them with Tyler. I used to do them with Ben and Jackie and Chris, but this year because of the quarantine, because of the pandemic, because of the, everything I want to say this.

Last year, when we did the episode, one of the pieces of feedback that I got from everybody was that usually when I do episodes, I’m either doing an interview or I’m either giving out advice, but the new year’s magic resolution, I kind of give a peek behind the scenes as to what’s going on in my life.

What’s going on in the Toronto magic company. And what my mindset is going into the new year. So instead of us doing an episode about all the things we had planned for 2020, and then how all of those plans went horribly wrong instead, Ben and I are going to be doing monthly Toronto magic company episodes here on the podcast. So we’re going to be tuning in once a month to share what we got planned, what’s going on.

And if you’re interested in what we’re doing, how we’re handling virtual, if you want to see us doing virtual magic shows, we’re going to be talking about all that, all of our plans, Unconventional.Fun, all of that good stuff.

So this episode I’m recording because I want to say thank you.  Next episode will be back to interviews, but I just want you to know that over the next 12 months, basically, I’m going to be doing some more behind the scenes episodes to share with you what I’m doing, what I’m up to and what I’m thinking as well.

Thanks so much for being here this year and the last five years of this podcast existing, you guys mean the world. I love you all so much. See you next Thursday, Peace!

In this episode, we are talking about if and why you should run your own ticketed virtual magic show and Jonah is going to give you five reasons why you may want to do your very first ticketed virtual magic show.

Let’s be honest, it makes money. Why do you think that people keep doing them? Because they’re profitable. They make money.

There are dozens and dozens of people who know and love you, and they know that you do magic and they love your work. But they don’t get the opportunity all that often to support you. Maybe they don’t live in the same city as you, maybe they’ve got kids and they don’t get to leave their house all that often to go to your events. Maybe you don’t put on a lot of ticketed public events. So the first reason why you should do this is because there are so many people in your network who wants to come see you perform and they’ve just never been given the opportunity and this is a wonderful opportunity.

The second reason why you may want to put on your own virtual magic show is because there is no better place for you to test material.

Think about it, you’re inviting all of these people to come watch you and these are likely people, especially your first few shows, who know you. They like you. They trust you. These are people in your community. Maybe people on your newsletter, maybe these are people who are on your social media channels, who you’ve been friends with, who you’ve been communicating with.

This is the safest environment for you to test out new material that is going to potentially make it into your professional or corporate level shows.

The third reason is that it is easy. I’m going to be honest with you. I have produced ticketed events, both in-person and online, and the amount of moving parts that you need to put in place to do an in-person event is way harder than for an online event. When renting out a space and selling the tickets yourself, the costs associated with that are astronomical. The cost associated with doing it in virtual are very, very reasonable. It’s the cost of zoom. Which you already have, and then whatever processing fees for whatever software you use for the tickets, maybe it’s Eventbright, maybe it’s Well-Attended. And if you’re really savvy and you’ve done a few of them and you want to start experimenting into Facebook ads, then you can start spending some money there.

But compared to in-person events, you’ve got to spend money on traveling there and back. You got to spend money on dry cleaning. You’ve got to maybe spend money on drinks or on food and on going out. There’s all these different things you have to spend money on. There’s different objects or items needed to bring to the venue, which are costly for you to bring. At home, you don’t have any of that. So if you ever dreamed of doing your own show and selling tickets or dreamed of having your own theater or dreamed of putting on your own show, this is basically the easiest least expensive way to ever, ever try it out and it’ll make you money.

The fourth reason, and this is kind of sneaky too, is it is one of the best ways I have found in the world of virtual to bring in new bookings. When somebody goes and they see your virtual magic show, maybe they go to it for free, or they pay $10 or $20 or $50, whatever, they see your virtual magic show. And now they think, “Wow, that’s something I want to do for my friend!”, or, “Wow! That’s something that I want to do for my company!”

Every single person who goes to see your show either works at a company or their husband or wife works at a company or their kids go to a school or their kids are having a birthday party. There are so many opportunities for an individual to want to hire a virtual magician that you putting on a ticketed show is more or less your audition to all of these people to tell them, “Hey, I am open for business and you can hire me if you’d like to, because I do virtual magic shows and they look. Epic.”

I know that I’m going to sound a little bit like a sixth grade talent show, but the fifth reason why you should put on your own ticketed virtual magic show is it’s fun.

It is fun. It is really, really, really fun. When you do a company show or you do a show for a big bank or whatever, 50-75% of the people there didn’t sign up to go to a magic show. For the most part, they didn’t even know that there was going to be a magic show! So then when you show up, you have to win them over.

When somebody who is in your network, someone who’s known you in the past, buys a ticket to your show and then comes to the show, they’re going to have a good time. Because they like magic and they like you. They’ve already self-selected themselves. So your show is going to have better laughs, more fun, better thank-you’s and wonderful testimonials that come afterwards, just because you decided to step outside of the box and put on a virtual magic show of your own.

If you need help, if you need a little bit of assistance with putting on your own ticketed virtual magic show, then let me know, send me a message and I will tell you a little bit about some of the fun stuff that I do. Upgrade Academy, which is my private coaching group starting this January. If you want some help going crazy in the virtual space, let me know, I’d be pumped to help you.

Jonah is joined by none other than Teller himself to discuss his history in magic, the challenges of producing Fool Us during a global pandemic, and how he views a world where every magic secret can easily be researched online.

Teller wasn’t always silent and he opens up about his early days struggling as a magician performing for fraternities that wouldn’t pay attention to him and would throw hard candy and cups of beer at him. As he got more silent in his routines he found that the audiences got drawn in and would pay more attention. As Teller puts it, he discovered he had an innate skill for lying with his body. 

Before he was one half of the most famous magic duo in the world he was a public school teacher. Invited by Penn to a renaissance fair, he took a leave of absence to explore the possibility of working as a magician full time and never returned to his old job. But it would be years of performing in relative obscurity mixed with a dash of major financial losses from failed attempts before they would end up performing off Broadway in the 80’s and begin to change the magic business forever. 

From their infamous appearances on David Letterman, to their mind warping presentation on Saturday Night Live, to producing Fool Us today, Teller has had a great deal of opportunity to consider how to create magic for a television audience. He and Penn learned quite early on that the best way to perform on camera was to perform towards someone, like David Letterman, and to use the stage as an opportunity to bring the audience backstage with them and become culpable in the acts, like on Saturday Night Live where the audience in the studio could see they were upside down long before the audience at home was aware of the illusion. All of those lessons they have learned have culminated into Fool Us where instead of performing for the camera the contestants on the show perform for Penn & Teller. 

Fool Us also breaks one of the other “rules” of magic and encourages the act of trying to figure out how the trick is done. Teller is honest about his feelings that for many people watching magic that’s a major part of the fun of magic. By framing their entire show around trying to guess how a trick is performed they’re also able to acknowledge and embrace how most people consume magic while still speaking in code to preserve secrets and not truly bring the audience backstage.

While most people attending a magic show are trying to figure out how the trick is done, in reality they probably don’t really want to know how it’s done as Teller points out that most magic secrets are really very dull, boring, and usually involve grueling mundane tasks. The better the trick looks on the stage the more dull the trick is back stage. So for Teller it becomes a balancing act of finding out how much “backstage” to appear to let the audience in on while in reality preserving the fantastic qualities of what the audience thinks is really going on. 

Teller thinks we would have great fun with Piff The Magic Dragon and one magician that Teller finds absolutely fascinating is Bob Farmer

Teller likes the proliferation of magic on the internet like being able to watch performances online that you otherwise wouldn’t see.

Teller doesn’t find very satisfying magic that is just being done for the camera lens and doesn’t give him the fair chance to do the intellectual part. If it just looks impossible and is impossible then it doesn’t feel like the “game” part of magic is as fun. 

“My definition of misdirection is the story you get the audience to tell itself. If you think about that for a while you may find it a very fruitful definition of misdirection. What you’re trying to do is to get the audience is to tell itself a story. You’re inducing them to tell that story to themselves. And what’s you start thinking of those terms, it’s a helpful concept”. 

If you think you have what it takes to appear on Fool Us then you should e-mail FoolUsCasting@gmail.com and you will be invited to send a videotape of what you are proposing and Teller will never know about it.

If you’ve never watched any of the zombie movies that Teller made with Ezekiel Zabrowski then you really should look into it.

This episode with Jonah is going to be ridiculously short because it’s not really an episode.

Jonah wants to say two things. The first thing is to say congratulations. This year has been really strange. And for many of us, it kind of all accumulated to December, which was for many of us, our busiest virtual magic month ever, where 12 months ago, not one of us was doing virtual magic. So you owe yourself a pat on the back for an interesting, fun, and strange, and a little bit of a hopefully memorable year that you’re going to remember for the rest of your life. Give yourself a Pat on the back for some of the amazing stuff that you’ve done.

The second reason for this episode is to tell you about next week’s episode. At the end of every Discourse in Magic podcast, Jonah asks each guest about the “Endless Chain”. In order to keep the podcast going on for eternity, each guest is asked to recommend another guest that would be perfect for the show.

There are two reasons why Jonah does this. The first reason is to help introduce us to new people that we don’t know and help to keep the podcast go on forever. But the second reason is to get in contact with some very specific, very hard to reach people, who have a lot of important things to say in the world of magic.

It is without exaggeration that we tell you that the episode coming out next week is one of the most exciting episodes that we have ever released. Not only is this someone who you know and love, but he over delivered on the episode and we are so excited to share it with you.

We can’t say too much about who it is yet, but what we can say is, for those of you that get it, we hope this makes up for our April Fools prank a few years back…

Jeki Yoo joins host Jonah Babins to discuss his magic journey, experiences in competitions, and his unique approach to crafting magic for television and social media. They explore the magic scene in South Korea and delve into Jeki’s process of creating engaging pop-up magic videos, which can take weeks to perfect. Jeki shares his organizational methods, his passion for magic, and how he monetizes his craft through events and product sales. The conversation also touches on the broader magic community, the effects of accessibility,

Jeki’s dedication to his craft is truly admirable. We talked about his process for brainstorming and tracking ideas, and how he uses tools like Notion to keep his magical concepts organized. It’s a peek into the mind of a magician who’s always pushing the boundaries.

Let’s not forget, magic is not just about the applause; it’s also a livelihood. Jeki opened up about how he balances his passion with the practical aspects of running a magic business, from performing at events to selling his own magic products.

We even touched on the origin of Jackie’s iconic catchphrase “oh my” and his thoughts on the current state of the magic world. It’s a mix of excitement for the accessibility of magic today and a call for preserving the discipline and mystery that makes magic so special.

Xavier Mortimer
Calen Morelli 
Matt Pitchford

The International Brotherhood of Magicians
Jeff McBride’s Card Manipulation Course

https://www.instagram.com/jekiyoo
https://www.jekiyoo.com/

Jonah is joined by Eric Dittelman where they talk about performing on TV, the usefulness of having an agent, the challenges of the past year going virtual, and the importance of creating a space where you can be bad.

Eric has competed on America’s Got Talent, appeared on Ellen, and performed on Penn & Teller Fool Us. He’s toured the United States performing at colleges and has produced shows in New York like the experimental magic and comedy show Amazeballs. 

Eric wasn’t even aware there were magic organizations or clubs until he was in college. Until then he cultivated his interest in magic by visiting random shops and pursuing his own hobby on his own terms, which he looks back on now as a strength having not been influenced by other people he was able to come into his own identity as a performer. 

That independent streak led him to mentalism where the cross between improvisation and psychological studies really appealed to him. As he found books to read by people like Bannachek and Bob Cassidy he began seeking them out, if there was an event where one was hosting a discussion he would be there to meet them and make connections. Those connections would foster lifelong friendships and mentorships, which Eric notes was very important to have.  

Eric is quick to point out that he stumbled into all his tv performances. If you have goals and you work towards them everyday they’ll eventually manifest and it’s just being ready and prepared for when those opportunities arise. After a producer saw one of Eric’s viral video gags he posted online he was encouraged to apply to America’s Got Talent, which lead to someone scouting him for Ellen, which opened doors later to appearing on Penn & Teller Fool Us. At first Eric kept his expectations low, at most he expected to be able to get a single clip from appearing on TV that he could use to compete for booking on the college circuit and he didn’t even tell anyone he was auditioning for America’s Got Talent. Eric shares his strategy on AGT and the risks he took at the end performing a trick for the judges that had only worked once before in rehearsal.

When the pandemic closed every live show in New York and across the country in March, Eric pulled back to take time to consider his next move. At first he was convinced that mentalism could not perform in the virtual space but after thinking about radio shows in the past and the shows he enjoyed listening to he decided to try a livestream show on Youtube with a “call in” line where viewers could join in via Zoom one at a time just like a radio call in show and have their minds read. 

While sharing his story about setting up his virtual shows Eric expands on that to include his history in improv and the importance he’s learned in being able to create spaces where you can be bad in. You can’t be bad at a paying gig so you also can’t take the same risks or experiment with ideas you haven’t fully formed. But by creating a space, either with friends or colleagues, or a low-rent studio where the cost of failure isn’t going to harm you, you can push your creative limits and find new innovative ways to improve your performances. Never underestimate the power of letting yourself fail. 

Mat Franco or Michael Kent or Peter Boie or Colin Cloud or Vinnie Deponto (is that enough names?)

Eric loves the moment of creativity where people find their own voice and find their own way

Eric doesn’t like the arrogance in the magic community which he doesn’t think is necessary to be a good magician. 

Create your own space and find a place to do your thing, and to actually DO the thing!

“You do it because the doing of it is the thing. The doing is the thing. The talking and worrying and thinking is not the thing.”
― Amy Poehler, Yes Please

ericdittleman.com (try and find a misspelling of the domain that doesn’t work!) 

Twitter – @EDittelman 

And check out Mind Over Magic, his new podcast with Mat Franco! 

This week Jonah is joined by the dynamic duo of Kyle and Mistie Knight.

Kyle & Mistie have been on tours with Disney Cruise, they’ve appeared on Penn and Teller Fool Us, and they even have the distinction of winning Wizard Wars! Today you’re going to learn all about how they got to where they are with Kyle’s background in working, building, and creating magic and Mistie’s incredible work on managing the business. Their lives, like everyone else’s, were turned upside down during the pandemic and after years spent living on the road they’ve had to reinvent their magic to work from their home in the virtual space while planning for whatever future lies ahead. 

Kyle and Mistie are celebrating eighteen years together and it all began when they met on a cruise. Kyle invited Mistie to see one of his magic performances and even though she never ended up seeing his show they kept in touch and a year later she cancelled her return ticket from Las Vegas while visiting Kyle and they’ve been partners ever since.

Initially Kyle and Mistie’s show was more illusion based with Mistie playing the role of the traditional assistant but after an agent failed to warn the duo that a show they were performing in Europe would be in front of an audience that only spoke spanish it was up to Mistie, who knew enough words to get by, to step up and take on a more featured role in the show. After experiencing how well audiences received seeing the pair share the stage equally it’s become their primary focus ever since. 

Kyle also has a reputation as a magic builder with a strong background in behind the scenes support. Most of what he knows he’s had to teach himself, from adapting pieces to fit the shorter Mistie to creating lightweight tables that can easily be stored and deployed at conventions and touring shows, which have now seen a surge in popularity during the pandemic where magicians are searching for efficient constructions to incorporate into their work-from-home virtual setups. 

For a performing couple who make most of their business touring with cruise lines, to say that the pandemic shutdown of the cruise industry has turned their business and personal lives upside would be a massive understatement. Kyle and Mistie have a lot of positive things to say about working with cruise contracts, from the incredible amount of travelling they get to do, to being able to get feedback from having much closer contact with their audiences who remain with them for days at a time. Now they’ve had to reinvent how to do their business, from having to manage their own clients to constructing their own virtual business from the ground up.

You might remember hearing Mistie in a previous episode of Discourse in Magic where she took part in a demo sales call with Jonah. Now, having completed Jonah’s workshop, she’s managing her own client calls and setting up new contracts and despite having lost all their business with the cruise lines this year they’ve managed to end the year earning more than they would have had their initial contracts not been cancelled. 

Naathan Phan and Mike Hammer

Mistie is most excited about women in magic. In the last couple years we’ve seen real changes in how audiences view women in magic and how performers incorporate women into their show. Long gone is the days of women only being seen as the assistant on the stage. 

Kyle loves how everything is exposed online and you can learn anything and what that is doing to force magic to evolve into something new.

Kyle does not like the “seriousness” of magic with the sparkly jackets and serious mood lighting, even if Mistie disagrees and is adamant that there is an audience for every act. 

Don’t be afraid to think outside of your own box. Try new things and take risks. If Kyle and Mistie had said no they would have missed so many opportunities. Say yes and make it work. 

You can follow up with Kyle and Mistie by following them on instagram @kyleandmistie
Check out their facebook page at kyleandmistie
And visit their website knightmagic.com

Today’s advice from Jonah is directed towards stage magicians who are transitioning from big stage or parlor shows to performing for the camera in virtual shows and he’s looking to the world of acting for the answers.

You used to be a stage performer, or you used to be a parlor performer, and now you are a virtual magician. And one thing that you’ll notice in virtual magic is you’re a little bit closer to your audience than you would be before. You’re quite close to the camera.

Sometimes actors have to transition from the world of theater acting to the world of camera acting. And one thing that happens when actors make that switch, is the directors often have to tell them over and over again, to play smaller. Do less. And here’s what that means. It means that they’re used to performing on a stage. That means that they talk with their hands. They express themselves with their whole body. If they’re sad, they’re not just sad with their face they’re sad with their shoulders so that the people sitting in the back row knows that the performer is feeling sad or looking sad. 

But for an actor who is acting for a camera for television, they actually need to make their emotions very small. If they’re looking angry, it’s more about adding a little bit of anger to their face, to their facial expression than it is to adding a whole lot of anger to their body. Or maybe if they’re looking excited, it’s about raising their eyes up a little bit. So the viewers at home can really intuit that they’re feeling excited because they’re close up to their face. They don’t have to throw their arms in the air and get incredibly excited.

That is the exact same piece of advice that Jonah is going to share for those of you that are translating from the world of parlor magic to the world of virtual magic, which is kind of an alternate close-up magic. You should be playing smaller, not necessarily the magic, but your expressions about it should be playing smaller, especially if you’re positioned close to your camera. If you’re positioned close to your camera, it’s much more important what it is that your face is doing than it is what your arms and what your body’s doing, because your face probably takes up to 40% of the screen. So if we’re looking really bored on our face but we think that doing interesting stuff with our hands is going to really help. It’s not. People are going to see a boring face. If we look excited and overly excited with our face, people are going to think that we are completely out of our minds because they’re right up close to our face.

So sometimes if you’re making that transition, from stage magic to the world of virtual magic, we’re going to take the advice that directors give to actors who are transitioning from theater to camera. And that is do less or play smaller.

So not big with your arms, not big with your legs, not big with your body, but instead the small movements in your face, that express the way you’re feeling, your excitement, your anticipation. That might be a change that’s going to help you really connect with the people on the other side of the screen.

We hope this was helpful for you. Please let us know and leave a comment. We want to know if this is the kind of stuff that you want to know

And if you need help with your virtual magic show, especially getting more bookings, getting higher paid bookings and systematizing the whole thing so it doesn’t drain your entire life, then send Jonah a message. Send an email titled “hello” to info@discourseandmagic.com and he will make sure to help you out.

This week Jonah is joined by Adrian Lacroix who has really popped onto the scene during the era of virtual shows with his videos and creations helping people to get into the business of virtual magic.

Adrian Lacroix has worked in some of the most exclusive places in Buenos Aires and in the past year has embraced virtual magic and virtual magic effects releasing tricks through Penguin Magic. He’s also become a prolific participants in panels and discussions helping to rally the magic community around the new normal of virtual magic shows. You can hear him participating in one such panel from our very own UnConventional.fun Virtual Panel.

Adrian’s introduction to magic wasn’t at a party or seeing magic performed in person, it was on a tv screen at 10pm at night when he was eight years old. David Copperfield was performing Misled, a pencil penetration trick, and that amazed Adrian to see a miracle being performed with elements you could find around your home. 

That love of magic would stay with Adrian into his teens when he would once again come across another tv special, this time David Blaine’s street magic, and the way the crowds reacted to the street magic encouraged Adrian to try performing himself to see if he could get the same reactions, which of course he did.

Without anyone to play the role of mentor, Adrian is mostly self-taught. He turned to watching magic performances closely, attending shows multiple times to see how the performance changed with each iteration and tracking down each detail of every trick and people involved to study how to perform them himself. In the pre-internet and youtube era this meant buying every VHS and book he could get his hands on to figure out the process on his own. If you put a problem in front of Adrian to solve, he’s going to try to solve it. 

Adrian admits he struggles with finding his inner motivation but if someone tries to prove him wrong his competitive side will kick in and he’ll be able to push himself to create and prove them wrong. 

It’s difficult to change, we are all creatures of habit and at the start of this year many accepted that they might not find work for a couple of months but wouldn’t have to drastically change the nature of their business. But now that we’re looking at possibly another year of pandemic related restrictions Adrian has some advice to share for magicians struggling to adapt to the changing landscape. 

The first step is to accept that you can’t keep doing the same thing. Even if it means watching someone else and copying what they’re doing that’s working, as long as you’re changing things up and learning how to adapt you’ll fare a lot better than those who are rigidly sticking to their ways. We need to keep things moving forward.

You also need to ask yourself why you are doing magic. Are you performing for the audience? Or are you performing for you own enjoyment? These different motivations may lead to different approaches. Then you need to be honest with the audience. Everyone is in the same level now. We’re all stuck in our homes and they are not expecting you to be in a place that you are not with forced background and heavy special effects. Accepting this will help us all find news ways to perform.

“If we make them understand the impossibility of the conditions we are working in now and then we make the magic happen, the tricks for me are even stronger. Because you’ve removed the magician physically from the place where the magic is happening.”

Juan Esteban Varela, who performs magic in the dark for blind audiences.

Adrian loves the feeling when he performs and how audiences feel when he performs. He loves how easy it is to make new friends in this field. That you can travel anywhere in the world and visit a magic store and be invited to join a meeting. It’s like a big family.

Adrian would like to see more diverse innovation and more original thought. 

You should think about why you are doing this in the first place. Why have you chosen to do magic and chosen to perform? If you find this answer you won’t care if you’re doing it over zoom, or in close up, or the stage.

Adrian’s creations can be found at Penguin Magic
And you can visit Adrian’s website at adrianlacroix.com

This week Jonah offers up essential tips to help you break out your virtual magic business from just a fun idea to a viable choice.

A lot of the people are getting started in virtual magic right now. They’re trying to take the leap and they want to get their first few gigs from social media but they don’t know how to do it. It’s kind of nerve wracking to try to post and say, “Hey friends, hire me for your events” and you’ve seen your friends do those posts and then not get a lot of traction and not get a lot of excitement. Here are three things that you can do right now.

Hashtag Hunting is especially helpful if you have a target market, such as a specific industry like working with schools, with camps, with cruise ships, or with corporate gigs.

If you have a target market all you gotta do is figure out what hashtags those groups use when you’re using social media and you search those hashtags. That is going to allow you to find the people and the companies that are hiring you because you know exactly who it is that you’re looking for.

Facebook rewards those who help people stay on Facebook. If you do things that help keep people on Facebook, then Facebook will reward you by having more people see your posts. If you make a post that says “click here to go to my website” then if the post works then everybody leaves Facebook and that’s not what Facebook wants. So instead you should have a post that encourages the user to leave a comment or you should post a video or a live stream because those things keep people staring at the video or watching and engaging with the live stream, which is exactly what Facebook wants. 

Let them in behind the scenes so they know what it’s like to be you. Use behind the scenes posts to generate more bookings and more interest than “please hire me” posts. 

If we’re using our social media channels correctly, they should be filled with people that like and trust us and are filled with people that we’ve already built relationships with.

So instead of feeling that social media is that black box that you post in you actually have thousands of friends, people that you actually know on those platforms that you can go start conversations with. Go chat with them, ask how they’re doing, ask if they’re still working at The Keg, and then ask if The Keg needs a year-end event, and then you can tell them about the stuff that you are doing.

The magic of sales happens inside of conversations. Talk to your friends and family and find out if you can help serve their events, their company events, their family events, their holiday events, whatever it is that’s coming. 

Jonah is currently starting a case study program, helping 10 magicians transition into the world of virtual. If you think that’s you send an email titled “case study” to info@discourseinmagic.com. Jonah would love to help you get into the world of virtual

This week Jonah brings you three secret tips for growing your virtual magic business.

You probably know by now that Jonah loves virtual magic but you might not be aware just how much he loves sales and marketing. So much so that Jonah spends his own money to hire sales trainers to help him on his virtual sales business. Through this training he’s learned three “aha” moments that has helped him with his own virtual magic sales and he’s going to pass them onto you in this week’s episode. 

A sales call is when you explain to them exactly what is involved in a show and what it looks like. A demo call is when you show them what is involved in a show and what it looks like. Both of these calls work but Jonah finds that both work better than nothing at all. If all you are doing is sending out e-mails you have to ask yourself if you’re willing to commit to doing a sales call or a demo call.

Listen to Appetizer #16 “How to Sell A Virtual Magic Show” to hear an example of a sales call. 

For every client that is calling you, this is the time where they have to take last year’s in person event and convert it into this year’s virtual event. But you are different, over the course of the last nine months you’ve performed countless virtual shows and know the technical aspects of it inside and out. You know what works and what doesn’t work and you can make their lives a thousand times easier by offering to handle all the technical aspects of your show. If you tell them, on your sales call, that you can handle all of the tech on your own and manage all aspects of the show on your own you have taken a lot of worry and stress away from them. If they don’t have to solve the entire event because you can handle those issues for them you are much more likely to close the sale.

The bulk of the people reaching out to Jonah to book year end shows are HR people inside of the company. After they are done speaking to you on your sales or demo call they are going to take what you have told them and present it to their team or the person in charge and re-pitch your show to them. If you provide for them a slide-deck to present to their team on your behalf you are not only going to have a stronger presentation for them but you are once again taking work off of the HR person’s plate and helping make their lives a lot easier. Your presentation will look nicer than all the other presentations because you’ve spent the time to hire a graphics designer to make it absolutely beautiful.  

If you want to learn more about the things that have been working for Jonah, you can book a free fifteen minute call to talk about your virtual magic business and to learn more secrets to help you grow.

Jonah is joined by Alex Boyce, a millennial magician who, rather than something new like other magicians his age, focuses on the old school and classic eras of magic.

Alex Boyce is a NYC magician performing for corporate events and at institutions like The Friar’s Club, The Player’s Club, and The Rainbow Room. He can frequently be found performing at Speakeasy Magick at the McKittrick Hotel.

Alex’s introduction to magic was a television broadcast of World’s Greatest Magic: 5 when he was about four years old. The images of magic tricks got him very excited and his mom was able to find a colour changing silks through the hand, which she assured the young Alex was a professional’s trick and not like those other tricks in his beginner kit. 

Soon came the summer camps and a memorable experience when he was eleven where he failed to make into the finals, despite what he believed was a great James Bond act involving a rocky racoon and a flipped over box. Eventually he’d focus on acting and attend NYU.

Alex puts a value on different stage pictures and images with the goal of creating interesting magic. Using props just for the sake of using props isn’t the purpose but a great scene with a great frame is really exciting. The interesting prop comes from the choices to create memorable moments.

Alex isn’t surprised that young people don’t focus on the classics of magic. When their introduction to magic is a David Blaine special then that’s the path they’re going to go down. But Alex will also question what it means to be a classic act? There are lots of acts happening right now that everyone does that should be considered classics. Whenever someone performs acts like Coins Through Table, Coins Across, Ambitious Card, Cups and Balls, or a variation thereof, they’re performing classic magic, even if they don’t realize it.

Todd Robbins

Alex loves the ability to connect with people and magic across age and experience. The community is what he enjoys beyond the actual performance of magic.

What Alex doesn’t enjoy is the backend of the marketplace for magic. He feels it puts the goals in the wrong places, making products for magicians that might not be as good as they should be because that’s where the incentives are.

The same way Alex has been able to reach out and create relationships he hopes that others can reach out to him and create relationships too because he gets so much out of the relationships he has in magic.

Boycemagic.com
Instagram – @boycealex

Jonah is joined by Jon Armstrong where they share an honest discussion on the difficulty of being a performer in 2020, learning how to embrace virtual shows, and how to plan for the eventual return to in-person performances.

Jon Armstrong is a performer, creator, and lecturer and you might recognize his name from any of his lectures, from his appearances at the Magic Castle, from Penn & Teller: Fool Us, or perhaps you recognize him for his very tiny plunger.

Growing up in Orlando meant working in theme parks for Jon Armstrong. He fell in love with the magicians performing at Disney and at the age of 14 was brought on to be mentored under another magician and since then magic is all he’s cared about. By age 20 he was working at Disney’s Epcot and taking every job available to perform. After five years of theme parks he moved to vegas to chase his dream and arrived to find no work at all. 

Starting back at the bottom it was by the grace of friends he had made along the way that he was able to perform up and down the aisles of theatres before shows would begin. A random happenstance would land his demo video on the top of the pile to be selected to fill in for a show at the Cesar’s Magical Empire’s close up room, The Secret Pagoda. Riding on the success he found in Vegas he left for LA to start all over again at the bottom just to be close to Magic Castle and build his client base.

This year was going to be a banner year for Jon, performing on an extended contract with Disney Cruise, but the COVID-19 pandemic curtailed all those plans. With a newborn on the way and opportunities disappearing Jon is honest about how hard this year has been both for his career and his mental health.

Now, like every other magician, it’s all about the world of virtual performances and he’s learned the new skills necessary to thrive in this environment. He’s rebuilding his shows to work in the unique spaces of interactive video performances and finding new ways to deliver old tricks in a fresh light.

Beyond his advice to upgrade your computer, Jon’s advice to magicians performing and developing virtual shows is to look to the future and think about how this new arrangement might inform stage shows, when they eventually return. If you’re developing a new trick for virtual shows try to imagine how you can also develop it for stage shows and in-person performances. Having a new repertoire of tricks when you return to stage performances is the light at the end of the tunnel for Jon.

But what about that tiny plunger? Jon breaks down his experience with Penn & Teller: Fool Us, his development of the tiny plunger that has become his signature piece and how a small variation on a theme has blossomed into a major magic business venture with tiny plungers being sold around the world and requested at every show he performs. 

Taylor Hughes

Jon likes how we have shown that we can be adaptable. That’s something to be proud of that we can adapt to this weirdness.

But what Jon doesn’t like is the opposite, that there are still people who are so unwilling to adapt anything into the virtual space and continue to look down on those who are adapting to grow in the virtual space. 

Really think about how you and the audience feels when performing magic. The best way to understand an audience is to understand how you feel from their reactions as well as how they’re feeling from what you’re doing. 

You can reach out to Jon at cardjon.com 

Jonah is joined by Erik Tait to discuss his brand of magic, producing magic for Penguin, and venturing into the world of live stream events.

Erik Tait is a top graduate of Toronto’s own Humber College Comedy Writing and Performance Program, has appeared on Penn & Teller: Fool Us, and was the 2018 International Brotherhood of Magicians Gold Cups Close Up Competition Champion

Erik Tait did not start out to become a magician, he started out as a juggler. In middle school he met the juggling duo Jessie and James who got him onto the path of becoming a professional juggler. After landing a job at the Comedy Barn, as a juggler, he soon found himself working the magic booth selling magic products and having to put on shows to customers to demonstrate. Thanks to a friendly ventriloquist who taught him what he needed to know he soon found himself as a magic pitch man. 

But the bug hadn’t bit Erik yet and rather than magic it was stand-up comedy that Erik was drawn toward. That eventually led him to Humber College’s comedy program where he learned the business of comedy as well as the craft of sketch, clown, mime, dance, tv production, and comedy writing. It was here that he came to learn that performance is a craft as much as it is an art. 

It’s ok to not be great at something you love. Erik was a good comedian but after years of trying to make his career break out his partner took him aside and pointed out that as good as he was at stand-up comedy he was great as a magician. Within a year after leaving stand-up comedy behind he had appeared on Penn & Teller: Fool Us, won the IBM, and landed a job at Penguin Magic producing their video content for magic demos. 

Today he can be found hosting livestream events for Penguin’s Sunday livestream, the host of the Penguin Magic Podcast, and his own Suspicious Wizard channel.

Erik admits that he’d love to be a mentalist but is never going to be good at that. It’s ok to recognize that some people are just going to be better at some things than others. You can still enjoy doing that thing you love, even if you’re not good at it, as long as you’re not hurting yourself or those around you. Erik is also really bad at playing Fortnite, for example, but that hasn’t stopped him from streaming his example of terrible gameplay on his twitch channel.

But finding that thing you are good at and honing in on that talent can be very rewarding, even if it’s not the first choice on your list. It took Erik years to come around to accepting magic performance as a legitimate choice for him and it meant leaving behind comedy, juggling, and accepting that he was never going to be a mentalist, no matter how many angora sweaters he buys.

Nick Locapo. He’s one of the best close up workers who doesn’t know he’s one of the best close up workers in the country. 

Erik likes the awareness and they are affected and a part of the culture and society around them. With the Black Lives Matter and Me Too movements happening there are real growing pains that are important and as difficult as it has been for some to face in the mirror, it’s ultimately going to be a good thing.

Erik does not like the inexorable passage of time. He regrets not approaching and talking to magic masters he almost met in the past and he knows that one day people that admire him won’t be able to approach him either. So seize the moment and talk to your heroes when you have the chance. 

Erik Tait dot com

Penguin Magic Podcast

Penguin Magic Facebook Page (and home of the Sunday live stream)

Sup1cious Wizard Gaming

This week Jonah breaks down all the basics you need to know about running ads on Facebook. These are the first things Jonah works with when consulting with other magicians to help them set up their Facebook ads. 

Through the Toronto Magic Company, Jonah has sold out shows for years using Facebook ads and recently successfully sold two-hundred tickets to UnConventional.fun using Facebook ads. In this episode Jonah will walk you through exactly how to use Facebook ads for your next show. 

The Facebook pixel is a tiny piece of code that you put on all of the pages of the websites that you are using your Facebook ad to send people to. That code allows Facebook to understand what people are visiting your webpage. And later it will help you define rules for specific groups and demographics as you gather who is visiting your pages.

In the future, if you want to up rules so that your ads target only the people who visited a specific page on your site but not other people who visited a different page the only way to do that is by using the Facebook pixel now before you start running traffic through the page.

If you try to run ads on Facebook without the pixel it’s not going to be very good. And that’s because Facebook needs to be able to talk and listen to your site. It needs to know what people are going to your site and end up buying something, like a ticket for your next show, and what people are not. The Facebook pixel will help ensure that your ads actually work. 

Jonah helps to break down what internal targeting is and the kinds of groups you can target with Facebook ads. As an example, UnConventional.fun was sold using pixeling and targeting only people that had been to the website, watched the video, or engaged with their social media page. 

External targeting is much harder because you know the people who liked your page already but now you want to reach a new audience who has never visited your page before. External targeting takes more creativity and brainstorming to think of who might be interested in being introduced to your product.

The secret to Facebook ads is testing. Seeing what works and what doesn’t work. Once you define who you want to target you’ll need to go into your data and see what actually worked and what didn’t. After looking at the data stop doing ads for the targets that didn’t generate results and start doing more ads for the rules that worked. 

Every aspect of your ad should be tested. The more you test the better it will work. Turn off the aspects that don’t work. Try at least three to five different images in the ads, see which ones engage with your targets and which ones don’t and lose the images that don’t perform. Same thing with text, try five different versions of the text and see which ones people engage with which ones people don’t and lose the ones that they don’t engage with. By testing, what ends up happening over time is you keep the things that work and you throw out the things that don’t and eventually the ad that you’re using over and over again is the best worded and best presented ad and best targeted ad that you can muster. 

If you want to work with Jonah directly to get in depth about the specifics of your Facebook ads and what has worked well for Jonah, you can book a free fifteen minute call to talk about your virtual magic business and to see what’s working and what can be improved with your own marketing strategy.

In this episode of the “Discourse in Magic” podcast, host Jonah Babins discusses the ten-hour rule for running a magic business. He advises magicians to limit administrative work to ten hours a week to focus on performance and creativity.

Three ways to stop wasting time:

1. Ineffective tasks should be stopped
2. Effective tasks should be optimized or scaled with technology.
3. Successful tasks may require hiring help. Assess your business activities and optimize or delegate tasks.

Discourse in Magic Mastermind

Send a message to magic@torontomagiccompany.com with the word SCALE and Jonah will send you the deets and see if it’s a fit to work together!

Recorded live during UnConventional.fun, Jonah hosts a virtual panel on hosting virtual shows. Joining the panel is David Parr, Ben Seidman, Haim Goldenberg, and Adrian Lacroix. Together they discuss the good side and the bad side of hosting virtual shows, how to develop your virtual show business, and tips and tricks they’ve learned along the way as the entire magic performing world has had to adjust to the new normal.

On one hand you get to work from home but on the other hand you get to work from home and that can be both a blessing and a curse when you never get to leave your home. From the lack of audience reaction, to staring at computer screens for extended periods of time, there’s a lot of work that goes into making a virtual show work. Virtual shows also present unique advantages like working inside the frame, when you’re hosting a virtual show you can have the frame of your camera work to aid you allowing you to perform moves that would be impossible on a stage in-person.  Hosting virtual shows requires that you have to write an entirely new show for the medium. This is a great time to create new magic. Everything is still new and there’s lots of room still to innovate how virtual shows are hosted and presented. 

How do you connect with people across the screen? You have to get used to talking to a camera like it’s a person, the lens is your intimate connection to your audience and it will take practice to build the skill to make eye contact with your audience through this medium. David points out that sincerity is part of the engine that makes this function. Many of the skills used in television specials will be the same skills used in virtual shows. Engaging with people on a human level and being in the moment is critical. You don’t want your show to be a passive experience, where they can sit back and lose interest in what’s happening. Treat your shows like a live television show, pay attention to your lighting and your environment. Starting out, it might be ok to make it look like you’re live in your home but Haim suggests that this time is passing and having a professional looking studio is becoming the expectation.

Virtual Shows are not the same as in-person shows but they are also not the same as a TV special. If you keep comparing virtual shows to in-person performances you may be setting yourself up to defeat yourself. The only way to discover the strengths and weaknesses of virtual shows is to take the plunge.

You might just start with a laptop and the built in camera and microphone but if you’re anything like Ben you’ll find solutions to lighting and camera rigging to build innovative environments that work for your show and your needs. 

If you are presented with two possibilities between do nothing and do something, why would you choose to do nothing? Every single person presenting shows right now is having to innovate and face the challenge of virtual shows. You might be worried at first but once you get some road time you’ll build your experience and your confidence to be able to show your clients how good of a show you can produce for them. 

David Parr – Curious excursions into magic and mystery, myth and history

Ben Seidman – Magician, Comedian, Pickpocket

Haim Goldenberg – Real Life Mentalist

The Mental Magic of Adrian Lacroix

Jonah was invited to the Better Business with Magic podcast, to join host Nolan Webster to discuss the intersections of math and magic and how they can work for anyone who wants to improve their business skills.

Math helps you in many ways and for Jonah it was all about helping with problem solving. Math has a creative nature and requires ingenuity and problem solving to come to a solution. In math you have to define your terms and plan how you will problem solve. In magic you really have to understand how to define everything that’s happening. To pull off something you need to be able to begin with the end in mind and a background in math helps build those skills.

As a magician you go on stage and do the performance and keep doing it over and over and over. After a year you’ll begin to notice that the same things will happen again over and over and over whenever you interact with the audience. Eventually you’ll be able to predict what the most likely outcomes are in seemingly random moments which you can use to figure out your best joke or your best strategy. The same thing applies to business. After enough iterations you’ll see what sticks and what doesn’t for your product.

This week Jonah talks about how to break into the virtual magic business. The virtual magic business is an important new wave with lots of money in it. If you’ve been listening since the pandemic hit you’ve heard Jonah get slowly more and more excited about virtual magic. In this short episode Jonah will tell you everything you need to know to launch your virtual magic business.  

If you’re interested in virtual magic shows you know that there’s a paradox when you’re trying to book shows. In order to book shows you need proof that you’ve done virtual magic shows. But in order to book your first show you need to show proof that you’ve done a virtual magic show before. So how do you show proof that you can run a virtual magic show even if you’ve never done one? Jonah will share the same strategies he’s used to fix this paradox that he’s used to get into the summer camp industry, the school business, and to start booking venues. 

Once you’ve overcome the first hurdle and have the proof that you need it’s time to start booking your shows at low to medium prices so that you can build up real testimonials and real photos and videos. Make sure you record everything, keep screenshots, and collect your testimonials. 

If you want to learn more about the things that have been working for Jonah, you can book a free fifteen minute call to talk about your virtual magic business and to see what it would be like to work together.

And of course don’t forget about Unconventional.fun, it’s the most exciting project that Jonah has ever started. A one day virtual magic convention that takes place in an 8-bit world. It’s happening on September 27th, 9am to 10pm EST, and Jonah would love for you to be there!

Jonah is joined by business partner and co-founder of the Toronto Magic Company, Ben Train, to discuss the details surrounding their upcoming virtual magic convention, UnConventional.fun!

They also share stories about their past experiences with magic conventions and how vital it has been to both of their own personal journeys as magicians.

Jonah and Ben have been running virtual events for most of 2020 and have really missed the unique connections and experiences that can only be found at magic conventions. So they got thinking about all the performers they’ve worked with in the past, and all the performers they wished they could work with but were separated by distance and conflicting schedules and figured out a way to replicate the magic convention in a virtual space.

Unlike other virtual convention experiences, the attendees at UnConventional.fun will create an 8-bit character to represent them as they move around the convention like a video game. As they approach other attendees and guests their webcams will fade up on the screen and allow them to meet and interact with them face to face. This means you can visit a table where a demonstration is happening, or hangout at the virtual bar, or go to a room where a lecture is being held, or just mingle around in the jamming space with other magicians who are in attendance.

Jonah and Ben have custom built the magic convention of their dreams, pixel-by-pixel. It promises to be thirteen hours of magic programming unlike anything you’ve ever been a part of.

Magic conventions have been an important part of both Jonah and Ben’s lives going back to their childhood. Jonah was spoiled by going to Magic Camp every summer, a week long magic convention, but it was after university that he began visiting more conventions more frequently. His favourite memory is visiting John Luka’s Motor City Close-Up Magic Convention and constantly jamming with amazing magicians.

For Ben, his favourite parts of the magic convention are the gala shows and the hanging out and jamming in the lobby. This is why it was so important UnConventional.fun was more than just logging into Zoom. He needed an awesome convention where people could set up in the lobby and jam and tables between lectures and get to experience the magic convention magic that’s so important to him. 

Tickets are limited to only 300 attendees so visit UnConventional.fun right now to find out how to get involved and join in on the fun on September 27th from 9am to 10pm (EST)

Jonah was invited to the Preconceived Podcast to talk about magic and understanding the craft and business of magic. This episode is a selection of that conversation that Jonah had with Preconceived host Zale Mednick. Check out the Preconceived Podcast for the complete interview. It’s a fun conversation with a magic layperson and a rare chance to hear Jonah talk about the introductory philosophies of magic in the magic communities.

In stand up comedy no two acts are the same. But in magic you can go and purchase a trick at your local magic shop and you will end up performing a trick that others have seen before. Instead consider that you’re cooking chicken soup. Lots of restaurants make chicken soup but you’re the only chef who makes your chicken soup. Just because your trick is the same as another performer doesn’t mean it can’t be unique. 

It’s very hard to say that you only perform a magic trick a certain way before it becomes cheating. Sure there are some practices that are frowned upon, like planting stooges in the audience, but at the end of the day the most important takeaway for your audience is that for one moment they couldn’t look up the answer and they were confronted by something they couldn’t explain. It doesn’t matter how the magician has created that environment, and yes the method might involve being a cheater, but where do you draw the line? If your audience knows it’s not true but feels like it’s true then you’re doing something right.

That said, some magicians do believe it’s important, especially in the hard to believe it’s true but it feels like it’s true styles of mentalism, to offer a disclaimer at the start of their show that what you are about to see isn’t real even if it feels like it is. Having someone like a lawyer actually believe that it’s possible to read someone’s mind could become really problematic and even when you’re creating a space for someone to experience the rug of reality being ripped out from under them in a safe and controlled environment it may also be important to remind the audience that nothing you do is, in fact, reality.

Jonah is joined by Ken Weber to discuss his revised and expanded Maximum Entertainment 2.0.

Ken Weber is a renowned mentalist and hypnotist who was named “one of the most frequently requested” performers on the college circuit by Newsweek magazine and was awarded the Dunninger Award for Excellence in the Performance of Mentalism by the Psychic Entertainers Association.

Now, having almost completely retired, Ken Weber is a sought-after mentor and performance consultant, author of the acclaimed book Maximum Entertainment and Maximum Entertainment 2.0. 

At the age of 10, Ken lived at a home for asthmatic children in Denver, Colorado. A chance encounter while walking the streets of Denver would land him in a teen magic club. By age 12 he had returned to New York with his business card ready. By the time he was in college he was a mentalist and after graduating and unable to find a job, despite two university degrees in theatre, he accepted a two week gig working on a cruise and from that point on he never looked back. 

Ken has two hobbies. Magic and investing. In the late 1980’s Ken started up a newsletter to help other people avoid being taken advantage of by stock brokers, which led to him doing a good deed here and helping someone out there and one thing led to another and Weber Asset Management was formed. Now he advocates for the rainy day fund, especially among performers. At a time when he’s advising clients to have money saved away for the changes happening in the world he can see how many performers are not prepared for the hard times ahead.  

There’s a lot of mistakes beginners make and Ken’s advice is to focus on the business and not rely on spending every dollar made on tricks and new products. Polish what you have and don’t kill yourself trying new material over and over. 

From music to jokes to phrases every performer has used the same lines or the same songs from other acts. Ken’s advice is to never use a line you hear another performer use. It takes away your creativity, instead ask yourself how you can get the same joke without using the exact same words. Ken’s warning is that eventually you’re going to work with agents and bookers and if they see you performing the same tricks with the same phrases to the same music then that is not going to help you. Classics are fun but Ken thinks you should make your own classics. 

For a long time Ken was a non scripter but he noticed that as soon as he began to write things down it forced him to ask himself if he really needed to say what he was saying or say it in that way. Now Ken is a strong believer in scripting everything you do and recording as often as you can. A script helps you identify when things aren’t clear and improve on the details of your performance in a way that adlibbing everything all the time simply can not achieve.

Additionally, When it’s time to edit your videos, hire someone from outside your magic circles and let them bring their dispassionate objectivity to the editing and help you direct your videos without your ego getting in the way. 

Harrison Greenbaum (note: we’ve already talked with him in “A Masterclass in Comedy Magic with Harrison Greenbaum”)

The level of magic and commitment is astonishing. And it’s gratifying to see the ingenuity and skill levels even among very young performers.

But Ken does not like the advertising in magic. Every trick is “The Greatest Trick Ever” yet many of them are just tweaks on classics. The worst is when the advertisement is edited in such a way that you can’t see that you would have been able to see how it’s done if you had seen it performed in a magic shop. 

Every day ask yourself, “what did I do today to move my career forward?” whether it be marketing stuff, learning a new routine, perfecting a routine, or taping something and then looking at it later but every day you have ask yourself what did you do?

For the professional, Ken used to advocate that you have a three month rainy day fund but now that we know that there is such a thing as a pandemic Ken wants all of his professional show business friends to have six to twelve months socked away in a bank account. Investment is important, not just because of a pandemic but because you can also literally break a leg! You have got to have that rainy day fund and you have got to build it up as soon as possible because you never know what tomorrow is going to bring. 

Maximum Entertainment 2.0 can be found in every major magic dealer. You can learn more about it at max-ent.info.

This week Jonah talks about one of his favourite obsessions, virtual magic shows. How do you sell a virtual magic show? What are the factors that are really enticing for someone looking to book a virtual magic show? And what are some of the factors working against you?

Jonah will go over his key strategies and break down the specific things he does when booking a virtual magic show (hint: it’s the same strategies he’s been using for years to book in person shows) and then follow up with a demo sales call.

After this short lesson you’ll learn why it’s so important to Be Wonderful, to Listen, to Crush Any Fears, to Problem Solve against what you’ve heard, and to never forget the Flying Monkey Principle!

Looking to learn more about what Jonah touched on this episode?

Sign up for Jonah’s free webinar on August 26th at 8pm EST where he’ll show you his exact strategies for pricing virtual shows to maximize income

Jonah is joined by Rafael Benatar to discuss his translations of magic masters into other languages, the secrets to memorization, and cultural differences in magic performances.

Rafael is a prolific writer and has played a pivotal role in bridging the language gap between the magic community at large and legends such as Darwin Ortiz, Juan Tamariz, Ascanio, and Roberto Giobbi. His list of writing credits can fill a small library and he has translated a wide selection of books from Spanish, English, and German origins. 

Hailing from Venezuela, Rafael was more into sports than magic. His father was the magic enthusiast and it was during a visit with his father to Magic Castle that showed Rafael that magic was an art-form he couldn’t ignore.

From classical guitar to the lute Rafael’s studies were in ancient instruments which took him to London and a magic shop where he self-taught himself the basics. His studies would take him across Europe until he settled into Switzerland and his first magic club with Roberto Giobbi. Armed with a discipline for studying and practicing, once he discovered the information one could find in magic books, nothing could stop him. 

Having studied music in London and Switzerland and fluent in Spanish and English, Rafael was uniquely suited to translate the nuances of magic practices in different countries. Developing his own style he is quick to point out that a direct translation is rarely a good idea, even when the translation is technical in nature, you sometimes have to rephrase and say it as you would say it in the translated words. Rafael also notes how different the styles are between different countries. For example, Americans are good at practicing but a Spanish magician will be good at a covering move.

Rafael has lots of stories to tell about the magicians he has translated from Arturo de Ascanio and his spin on the magic lecture to Roberto Giobbi’s theory of “The Critical Interval”, the precise moment when magic happens, and the “crazy genius” of Juan Tamariz. Rafael’s translations go well beyond simply translating the words. He needs to understand the context of every trick and confirm that they can be performed as they have been written, no matter how complex they may be.

Rafael applies many of the things he learned in music towards his magic. The most important is his system of practicing. Learning anything from beginning to end has its own issues which usually means you remember the beginning much more than the end, having practiced it more than the rest. But Rafael knows that memorizing a stack is something anyone can do, if you put in the work. Rather than learn from beginning to end Rafael recommends you learn the stack backwards in groups. And the secret trick? Practice memorizing right before you go to sleep! Your brain will keep working on the practice while you sleep and internalize the patterns. 

Camilo and Mark Mitton

People are not happy to just read the instructions and do the trick. Good magicians are always going a step further. Now people are changing things around and giving them good twists. This leads magic down an artistic past.

But there is an excess of information and not knowing what to do with it and how to handle it. Not everyone can read every book coming out and the most recent trick gets mixed up with the fundamentals. The fundamentals are always more important than the latest cool thing. 

If you learn a technique from a sleight or a book, don’t be happy to just do what the book says. Be concerned about the cover. Try to put yourself on the side of the audience and try to imagine that you’re doing a more difficult move and cover it. 

Penguin Magic: https://www.penguinmagic.com/magician/rafael-benatar
Vanishing Inc: https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magician/Rafael-Benatar/
And more in the works!

Jonah is joined by Steve Valentine this week to discuss acting while being a magician – and the dangers of not being taken seriously, uncovering the lost history of magic, and the importance of a presentation that transcends the trick being performed.

Steve was introduced to magic thanks to the prescient powers of the gift of a magic kit from his mom, who also predicted the future careers of his siblings with her gifts to them! Steve’s life has taken a lot of twists and turns from working as a DJ in nightclubs in Yugoslavia to acting on television and in videogames to lecturing at Magic Castle and touring with the Illusionists. Steve certainly believes that nobody should ever feel tied to only being stuck doing one thing.  

The most surprising fact about Steve’s history is undoubtedly his start as a performing magician, if you don’t count his failed shows in his parent’s garage, was on the stage at the nightclubs we was hired to run in Yugoslavia in the 80’s. What made it so great for him was the change to be bad and fail terribly and have the chance to keep going back out and try again. The chance to find a place and go be bad, where failure was an option, was a blessing in disguise to developing his early skills as a magician.

Steve has always lived in both worlds of acting and magic and one always informs the other for him. He advocates for every magician to consider acting classes, if only to help you know how to make your voice strong so your voice will survive a long run of performances. It’s all part of the same art form of entertainment.

The difficulty of not being taken seriously as an actor who also performed magic meant that for much of his early acting career magic had to be put to the sidelines, that was until a fortunate break on House which saw both of his worlds blended together again. Steve’s biggest advice for magicians who are aspiring actors is to stick it through and focus on their longevity, a lesson he learned personally after waiting three years for his first speaking role.

Steve has also been named Lecturer  Magician of the Year (2013 & 2014) by the Academy of Magical Arts and recognizes that a good magical lecture is not just about the tricks but also the history, the performance, and story. Through his research he’s discovered a wonderful hidden history, of magical acts that were never recorded entirely and whose mysteries have been lost through time. By piecing together different accounts, and a little reading between the lines, he’s been able to recreate 19th century secrets and help understand more about the history of magic and it’s performances.

That passion has extended to his latest endeavor with Magic on the Go, an online resource and repository of magic history. What’s most important for Steve is to preserve the history of magic so that the incredible magic secrets of the 1900’s aren’t lost to history and  create an easily accessible database for future magicians.

Keith Fields

The level of skill is phenomenal. A lot of that has to with video and being able to learn by seeing and not just reading. But the proliferation of exposure means that the presentation has to transcend the trick.

We’re in a world that is a world of deception. But the one person who should never be deceived is the magician. We want to deceive the public, not ourselves

Magiconthego.com

Stevevalentine.com

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IG: @SteveValentine

Twitter: @SteveValentine

This week, Jonah joins Graeme “Graemazing” Reed on an episode of his podcast, Magicians Talking Magic. The two discuss pivoting to performing virtually, and how to build relationships during these uncertain times. Graeme is an Ontario based magician with a background in media and broadcasting.

With the shifting atmosphere, it is now essential for people to shift their personal and business lives online to continue interacting during these uncertain times. For all of us to do this successfully, we as magicians need to share and support each other as we move forward into this new normal for performing. 

While this is only a section from the episode, Graeme will be releasing the full episode over on his podcast. So, if you’re interested in learning more about producing shows online, I recommend stopping over and giving the full episode a listen. 

Graeme’s Website 

Graeme’s Instagram 

Magician’s Talking Magic Podcast 

In this episode of “Discourse in Magic,” host Jonah Babins interviews Franz Harary, a renowned magician and illusion designer. Franz shares his magical journey, starting with a childhood magic set that sparked his interest in fooling adults and led to his passion for creating original illusions.

Franz recounts his early experiments with cardboard and duct tape, his inspiration from Doug Henning, and his innovative approach to making a car appear, which he later sold to famous magicians. He recalls a pivotal moment when, at 16, he ingeniously used perspective to make a car appear out of thin air—a method he later sold to renowned magicians like David Copperfield and Criss Angel.

Franz also discusses his time working with Michael Jackson on the Victory Tour and his subsequent career as an illusion designer for various pop stars and Broadway shows.  This leap of faith catapulted him into the limelight, and he quickly became known as the young kid who designs illusions for the stars.

Franz emphasizes the importance of understanding who you are as a magician, the message you convey, and the need to push the boundaries of magic alongside technological advancements. For Franz, his message has been about equality and empowerment, showing audiences that they too can achieve the seemingly impossible.

Franz encourages magicians to take risks, be unique, and continually innovate. He shares a piece of advice from Michael Jackson that has become his mantra: “Whatever you do, do it differently and better than anybody else.” This is what transforms a craftsman into an artist.

——-

Franz’s only ask is that you follow him on his Facebook page – here it is:
https://www.facebook.com/franzhararyfanpage/

Bruce Gold

https://ronsaylor.com/
https://www.facebook.com/saylormagic/

Thank you to Javier Naterra for providing translation assistance this episode.

Jonah is joined by Dani DaOrtiz this week to discuss the power of muscle memory, the right way to utilize chaos, and communicating through magic. Dani is a Spanish magician known for his chaotic magic style, psychological card work, and is 1/3 of the Fat Brothers.
Dani can’t recall how he got into magic, save for receiving a magic kit as a child, but magic has always been apart of his life. His learning was self-driven starting out which, to him, was a blessing and a curse. Juan Tamariz. Ascanio. Lennart Green. These are simply some of the magicians who inspired him in the early years and still influence his style to this day. While he didn’t have the benefits that come with having direct mentors, he was able to define his own style and approach to magic based on his interpretation of the masters.

If you watch Dani perform, you might believe that his show is improvised. To a degree, you would be correct, but Dani explains that his material isn’t truly improvised. While he may not go into a performance knowing the content of the show, he is able to rely on muscle memory to explore what he’s saying at that moment. Overtime, Dani will add different aspects to his muscle memory based on the reactions of the audience. His confidence in his abilities and tools has allowed Danny the freedom to explore emotions in his show as he can become comfortable at any table.

Dani only writes what he discovers. 

Rather than researching and learning about things like psychology, Dani is focused on uncovering and analyzing the information for himself. He wants to watch his audiences over and over again to dissect how they react to his new effects. Only once he has performed hundreds of times and polished them down, on top of understanding what it is the audience is experiencing, does Dani sit down to write out his effects or theories. 

He makes it clear that he is not writing for himself but for the community; he knows that some of the ideas he uncovers are not meant for him, but other magicians who can take the concept and improve it. This is why Dani believes in the importance of writing and sharing your knowledge with the community, but, of course, only after you have worked it out and know the material is polished.

Rhythm is the effects you decide to use in your show. The way you structure their place. Your relation to the audience and their attitudes. Every aspect of your show affects the rhythm, and the rhythm is what makes your show. While Dani’s show is generally unstructured, he still breaks his show down into sections and explains his process for why he selects certain tricks at specific points in his act. 

Miguel Gea

Even if he doesn’t enjoy everything he sees, Dan is excited when he sees different styles and conceptions of magic.

We’re talking about magic! That’s the most important thing. 

Dani’s Website

Dani’s Facebook 

Dani’s Instagram 

To get us back into the swings of things, Alex Boyer joins Jonah to discuss visual magic, following your interests and becoming a successful content creator. Alex Boyer is an Ottawa based magician with 26.6k subscribers and 635k+ views on YouTube.

The only way you’ll start to post is when you start to post. 

When he was first starting out, Alex aimed to post multiple videos each week just to get into the habit of posting. Creating that much content was overwhelming, but the work and results fueled him. As he continued to post more to YouTube, he learned how to streamline aspects of the process to make everything simpler. Alongside just having the content out there to establish himself online, Alex also managed to find and refine his style. 

Alex has shifted away from constantly posting to occasionally posting; his focus has been on creating high production value magic videos that he can release every few weeks. These videos feature original magic, snappy editing and killer visuals.  With each video, Alex is aiming to deliver a high production value magic experience.

When Alex sits down to work out his videos, his thoughts are on what will look best on camera. What can he make float? What object will be visual on camera? If you want an example, look no further than his floating ribbon spread video. 

With that in mind, he reminds the audience that they need to determine what their style is. Be true to yourself and start exploring the ideas that interest you; you’ll find your audience.

Chris Ramsay 

Alex likes that there are so many great magicians and magic tricks that we get to see because of the internet. He also enjoys seeing the innovation of upcoming performers. 

He isn’t a fan of the oversaturation of people doing magic just for the clicks; he believes that if you’re going to do magic online, you should put the effort into the effects.

Step out of your comfort zone.

Alex’s YouTube

Alex’s Instagram

Alex’s Website

Feeling lucky? This week Jonah sits down to talk about the four types of luck, and how you can leverage luck to work in your favour. We’ll be back to the regular interview episodes in two weeks! The Discourse in Magic Team has been working on some exciting projects during this break that we can’t wait to share with you.

If you would like to explore the concept of luck and the resources Jonah mentioned during the episode, you can check out the following links:

Naval Podcast 
Marc Andreessen Article
Chase, Chance & Creativity 

As always, we would love to hear from you! Have you been exploring virtual shows? Working on anything new? Give us a shout or join the Discourse in Magic Facebook group to share what you’ve been working on!

Just started performing virtual shows? Have a few under your belt? Looking to improve your setup? This week, Jonah sits down to give you some simple tips on how to improve your virtual and physical performing setup.

Looking to learn more about what Jonah touched on this episode?

Sign up for Jonah’s free webinar on July 8th, 2020 at 8pm EST where he’ll lead you through using ECamm Live. Note: ECamm Live is only available for Macs, but Jonah will touch on alternative software.

This week, Jonah sits down to give you a tip on how to practice your material for virtual audiences. With only an email and some simple to use software, you’ll have a system in place that will help you schedule time to test your material in no time. Of course, if you have any questions, you can always reach out to Jonah through email.

If you’re looking for the software Jonah recommended in the episode:
Zoom
Calendly

The next two episodes will be magician appetizers as the Discourse in Magic team is currently occupied with some major projects. If you would like to keep up to date, consider joining the mailing list or joining our Discourse in Magic Facebook page.

Jonah is joined this week by Chris Pilsworth to talk about collaboration, appreciating your audience, and creative processes. Chris is a magician based out of Ottawa, Ontario, and is known for his creative ability and engaging performance style.
At 11 years old, Chris’ interest in magic was sparked by magic books his brother brought home from the library. Fascinated, he began to learn simple tricks, but it would take him a year to work up the confidence before he put on a show. Soon, however, he was working the birthday party circuit and experimenting with what magic could let him accomplish. Although he knew he wanted to become a magician, his parents recommended he go to University to back his knowledge. Having experience and interest in design, Chris would go on to attend Carleton for Industrial Design.

There isn’t an answer to how to be creative immediately, Chris explains, but you can get stronger at overtime. Everyone is different, some people are stronger, but Chris reminds the audience that you shouldn’t compare your creativity to others for that reason. Recognize your strengths and remember that creativity is not about being original. It’s about not getting stuck. Throughout the episode, Chris breaks down his creative processes and how he overcomes roadblocks.

One of the things that shows in Chris’ magic is his appreciation for his audience. Not only are they spending money to see him, but they’re spending his time. A currency, that he explains, is one that you cannot get back once spent. So, when you step on stage, you should do so with the acknowledgment that these people took the time out to come to see you and experience your magic. 

When we share the magic, we need to remember that what we do affects other magicians down the road. If you’re hired, don’t put the effort into your performance, and perform badly, you’ve probably ruined magic in the eyes of your audience, possibly preventing further gigs for you and others. Step on stage prepared and rehearsed to give your audience the show they deserve. 

When the world went into self-isolation, it felt like the entertainment industry had completely shut down. Or at least, that’s how Chris felt at first until he realized that it was simply the platform he performed on that disappeared. People still wanted to be entertained and see magic, they just now are experiencing it online. 

With a creative limitation, he was excited to play with, Chris has been adapting and rescripting his magic to the virtual screen. Suddenly, tricks that were angle sensitive or props that couldn’t be examined have become viable options, opening up a new field to explore. 

Gene Anderson 

Rick Wilcox 

Chris likes that magic is constantly reinventing itself and exploring new platforms. Seeing the younger generation taking advantage of technology inspires him. 

What Chris doesn’t like are performers who don’t appreciate the time of their audience nor the craft they practice.

Don’t be afraid to be creative. Your ego may be fearful of your trick going wrong, but you shouldn’t be afraid to explore what you think magic should be for you. 

Chris’ Website

Chris’ Products

Discourse in Magic is pausing this week to give way for the voices that need to be heard. Jonah would like to help amplify these voices by handing over the mic to black magicians who have a message for magicians. We want to help educate. To help grow. To help make magic a more inclusive environment.

If you are a black magician and would like the Discourse in Magic audience to hear what you have to say, write or send a voice message to the podcast at: discourse@discourseinmagic.com.

We ask that you take a moment, in lieu of this episode, to think about how you can contribute. Reflect on your actions. Have difficult conversations. Ask questions. Seek to understand. Be open to hearing other people’s experiences, and be willing to change your understanding of the world.

The magic community shouldn’t continue to fall behind in the conversation.

If you don’t know where to start, I suggest checking out Ran’D Shines episode where he speaks passionately about inclusion. 

Felice Ling also released a fantastic article that examines the damage of Asian stereotypes in the magic community. 

This week Greg Rostami joins Jonah to talk about creating, performing, and utilizing app magic.  Greg is a prominent app magic creator, known for creating apps like ReaList and Inject.

A Svengali Deck was Greg’s intro to magic. He was fascinated by the concept and was pulled into magic because of the clever nature of the art. Closeup magic became the style he loved and would perform it wherever he could. 

With a background in electrical engineering, Greg started out with the idea of creating magic hardware. His focus shifted from hardware to software with the release of the iPhone; Greg became focused on using features fundamental to technology and exploiting the tech for magical effects. In 2009, this would lead to the launch of his and Randy Croucher’s app iForce.

There seems to be a hesitation among magicians to use app magic. People think it’s too complicated. Others are afraid that people will see right through the effect and immediately know it’s the app. For those who find apps complicated, Greg understands. The issue with feature-rich apps is that they can be overwhelming, so focus on finding one aspect to learn. What part of the app can you adapt to your performance now? What intrigues you? Don’t focus on mastering everything the app can do. 

If your afraid people will know the method, think of it like learning about a thumb tip. You can be fooled by someone making a silk disappear into a thumb tip, but when you learn that it’s just a fake thumb for the method, you might wonder how it would fool anyone. Even though you were just fooled. Apps are similar. Greg recommends finding the apps that don’t smell of technology and then building presentations around the ones you like. You’ll soon find that performing app magic is as seamless as borrowing a spectator’s phone. 

Acknowledging that presentation wise he’s creatively limited, Greg sets out to create apps that are tools rather than single effects; he wants to create versatile apps that magicians can play with and adapt to their style. With this in mind, Greg focuses on speed and ease. He doesn’t want there to be long-winded presentations inherently designed into the app because strolling magicians want a tool that is ready to go and let them move on to the next group. 

By offering a myriad of features that act more as a foundation than as single effects, Greg invites performers to play and experiment with his app. 

Everything you do in magic needs to be motivated. This doesn’t stop when your magic tool is an app. You have to figure out why your spectator is accessing Google or even pulling out their phone. If you want the spectator to completely dismiss the idea that you were using technology to pull off your effect, you can’t draw a line from A to B. 

Gui Del Frate

Greg loves that magic is an evolving art form that takes existing premises and pushes the boundaries of presentation and method. The current innovation amazes and excites him. 

He isn’t a fan of how we tend to take things for granted nowadays. It took us years to get to where we are, yet we can dismiss these innovative thoughts by swiping away without a second thought. 

If you can find motivation in your repertoire in including something that requires the internet, then app magic is amazing. Your spectator walks away with a souvenir on their device. Greg also reminds you that motivation in your performance is key. 

ReaList [Android] [iPhone]

Inject 2.0 [Android] [iPhone]

Tim Hannig sits down with Jonah this week to talk about performing for kids, upping your production value, and the power of knowing every step of your show. Tim is a magician, author, and motivational speaker who tours schools in the States with his children and family shows.
One of Tim’s early childhood magic memories is of the time his father took him to see Blackstone. Both amazed and inspired, the two began to reverse engineer the show together, building mini illusions of their own from the show. 

By the time he was 17, Tim was performing magic at Six Flags. The theme park was the perfect training ground as he was not only performing the same 20mins six times a day, but he had to learn about maintaining the interest of the audience. Families were there to have fun and would gladly walk away from his show if Tim didn’t engage them. By his sophomore year in University, Tim was performing at schools and has been ever since. 

Respecting the kids and their intelligence is Tim’s number one thing when he’s performing a show. He wants to come across as their friend and be on their side. This is why Tim isn’t a silly character on stage. And, through his years of performing, Tim understands how to get the children on his side. Tim champions the idea of knowing every beat of your show, especially for kid’s performers, because it won’t give them a chance to misbehave. 

During the day he might be performing primarily for kids, but at night the families are invited back. Children sit with the parents they made come out, and the whole family leaves having enjoyed the show together. Tim explains that he knows the parents don’t expect to enjoy it, but he has designed the show with content for the adults. He doesn’t want them to enjoy it through the eyes of their kids but on the show’s own merits. 

From the moment you reply to an inquiry to following up after the show, you should know what’s going to happen at every step of the process. A week before the show, Tim has automated messages that are sent to the school so that they know what to expect for the show. These are in addition to the pamphlet he sends out explaining how to set up for him. His goal is to make the lives of his clients easier which in turn makes his job simpler. 

Tim also ups his actual onstage production by incorporating music into his shows. Theme songs. Stingers and bumps. Intro and Outro music. Songs behind stories. Music adds an additional element to his show that elevates the experience of his magic. While Tim’s music is custom and designed specifically for his show, he encourages performers to explore royalty free options as music can’t hinder your show (unless used inappropriately).

When Zoom shows were starting out, Tim didn’t jump right into doing one. He wanted it to be a strong product, so he spent his time watching others and developing a show that played to his strengths as a stage performer. After assembling a show, Tim performed three weekends of shows, charging $15 for a ticket. With confidence in his material, Tim has begun to offer the show to his past clients who are interested in keeping the family shows going. 

Tim explains that your virtual show needs to be different from your regular show. You can’t treat them the same because they’re two very different formats. If you need a viewer to select a card, what is your plan to deal with the lag? Much like in person, you need to carefully consider your options.

 However, there’s also advantages to performing virtually. Everyone has a front row seat, so you can do close up magic for 100 people. Things that are angle sensitive are now viable options. 

Terry Ward

Tim loves that no matter how old you are, there’s an entrance ramp for you into magic. He’s also a fan of seeing the older generation empower the younger generation. 

Tim doesn’t like when a magician doesn’t know how to be a good audience. He also isn’t a fan of magicians who treat his Facebook wall like a forum.

Love your audience. Give them your best every single show.

Tim’s book, Perform

Tim’s Website

While it might be a short one this week, Jonah has packed this episode full of advice on how to continue growing your business during these times.
If you’ve been stuck on what to do for your business, Jonah breaks down what you should be doing right now to succeed later. He explains how you know what everyone is thinking and how you can start building connections based on this knowledge.

In this episode of “Discourse in Magic,” host Jonah Babins shares the exciting news about the podcast’s return. Listeners can look forward to fresh interviews and episodes covering a wide range of topics within the magic community.

Jonah discusses his recent experiences, including his appearances on the television show “Fool Us.” He also encourages fellow magicians to seize the opportunity and apply to be on the show.

A new free training resource is introduced by Jonah, designed to help magicians increase their business success. This tool is aimed at magicians looking to elevate their professional endeavors.

How to get more Reviews, Referrals, and Rebookings: https://discourseinmagic.com/double-your-referrals-reviews-and-rebookings/

Jonah recounts the expansion of a secret magic convention, sharing insights into its development and what it offers to the magic community.

The episode delves into Jonah’s consulting work with Asi Wind, providing a glimpse into his role and contributions to the magic scene.

Jonah talks about his extensive travels for lectures and performances. He shares his experiences and the knowledge he has gained from engaging with magicians around the world.

If you’re already at 25k per month or more in your magic business and want to scale to 6 figures and far beyond I might be able to help. Send me a message to magic@torontomagiccompany.com with the word MASTERMIND and I can walk you through what it looks like to work together and see if I can help!

THANKS for returning back, it’s been a pleasure to be back in your earlobes. Looking forward to more fun together.

Jonah is joined by Francis Menotti this week to discuss virtual performances, working as a duo, and methods to improve your creativity. Francis is a performer, consultant, and half of the magic duo: Couple of Magicians.  

When he received a magic kit for his fifth Christmas, Francis was quick to embrace the deviousness of magic as a way of making the impossible possible. His interest continued throughout elementary and high school, where he began to perform at birthdays. By the time he was attending college at Penn State (where he started the first magic club with friend Ran’D Shine), he began to see that magic was the path for him. Knowing he wanted to make a living doing magic, Francis moved to Philly.

If you’ve seen Francis perform, you probably immediately noticed he has a unique approach to performing magic (you don’t have to look much further than his Fool Us performance). A lot of his ideas and acts have come from this idea of forced creativity – limiting your resources and setting guidelines to drive and focus your creativity on one task. From games to understanding what he’s looking for in an effect, Francis has developed different systems to help him improve his own creative process. 

During the episode, Francis proposes two games that will help you develop your toolset and give the books you own the time they deserve. The first game is a “follow the leader” style game where players try to repeat the actions of the moderator; if you can’t do a move, you now have the task of figuring out how to. The second game involves using a random number generator to select a book and effect/essay that you then need to read and understand. 

Alongside being a solo performer, Francis performs in a duo act with his wife, Lindsey Noel. The process to create their duo show has been a fun but challenging one. Francis has been forced to approach aspects of performing differently which has been a beneficial creative experience for him. He’s had to rework the way he thinks about blocking and interacting with the audience on stage, knowing that he has a partner to share the time with. 

When the two talk about ideas, the answer isn’t ever simply no. The answer is “there’s a way of doing that idea, but you have to remember the time and budget constraints.” It’s not just new ideas they’re creating for the act though. Francis has taken pieces he’s done for years and incorporated Lindsey in them as an equal performer in the routine. 

When the self-isolation period began, Francis and his wife immediately began working on a virtual show, recognizing that this wasn’t going to be a short hiatus. The past few weeks have been about trial and error to determine what does and doesn’t work. While they have had success, there have been some learning moments along the way. 

Francis highlights that right now people are tuning in to watch people do things live for a chance to connect. They’re not looking for high production value currently, but he believes that’s beginning to shift as more people move into performing virtual shows. And, now that people are aware that shows can be done online, the request for virtual performances isn’t going to go away. This is why, as an entertainment industry, we need to figure out how to make it not bad.

Marc DeSouza

He enjoys that magicians are taking more time to figure out performance ideas. 

He isn’t a fan of the cliquishness of magic.

Keep moving forward and don’t be afraid to make mistakes. 

Couple of Magicians Facebook Page

Francis’ Website

Francis’ Site for Discourse Listeners 

Francis’ Instagram 

Derren Brown joins Jonah this week to discuss developing ideas, finding your own voice, and what magic means in our current society. Between his award-winning stage shows, TV specials, and books, you’re probably familiar with the UK based mentalist. 

Hypnotism was Derren’s path into magic. During his time studying German and law in university, he had the chance to see hypnotist Martin Taylor perform. His interests shifted, and he began to practice hypnosis alongside his studies. When he started working, Derren learned that magic was easier to present to people compared to hypnotism.

Derren’s shift from being a gigging magician to a household name was slow. Even with the release of Mind Control in 2000, Derren was still working as a restaurant magician. Between focusing on doing the strongest magic and the skills of the team he’s built over the years, Derren has been able to create a name for himself. 

Derren dropped the conjuring side of his persona when the TV specials started to kick off. Mentalism, to him, allows for more impressive presentations than simply finding a card; however, you have to go further than just asking someone to think of a word, writing it down, and showing you got it right. The interesting aspect of mentalism lies in the process the performer takes to divine the word. If your goal is to take your audience’s mind to a richer place, you have to commit to the process.

There is, of course, the ethical questions behind mentalism that Derren has struggled with over the years. Initially, he would make direct claims about his abilities, but, as he grew, Derren found an area where he could be honest while digging into the interesting aspects of magic. While he’s been able to create a brand that allows for this, Derren explains to performers that you should be taking responsibility for your actions and focusing on the core audience watching you.

Light and shade is necessary for any performance. If a trick is slow and serious, the next one should probably be upbeat and quick. The performer has a responsibility, especially in a theatrical setting, to move people in different ways. Derren explains that you don’t want to be operating in one state of being on stage as it’ll be difficult to create those big shifts your performance needs.

You have to earn what you’re doing on stage. For example, if you want to tell the audience how to be, you have to be vulnerable and reflect on your own actions. Derren points to good comics as an example: they often have a lot to say, but they don’t come across as preachy because they put themselves at a lower status than the audience.

Never have a better time than your audience. If anything, you want to carry with you the image of a spectator on the verge of leaving. How do you keep them engaged? How do you surprise them and keep them in their seat? 

Finally, be likable. Be you. You can have all the power if you act like you don’t have it because we want to connect with a human. Derren explains that we like performers for what they do, but we love them for what they are. 

Derren has worked alongside Andy Nyman and Andrew O’Connor since his early TV specials to create his shows. The three of them will sit down to brainstorm themes, images, and the core of the show. What they don’t do is talk about the tricks. Their focus is on finding the rhythm of the show and determining what beats they want to hit throughout. What tone is he starting the show with? How can they overdeliver with the ending?

The finale is what people last remember when they leave the theatre. The finale is where you can get away with madness and rule-breaking as you build up the audience. He wants something simple but that explains so much of what the audience saw. Derren reminds listeners that there are a million ways to end a show. You just need to make a conscious choice about what you want your audience to leave with. 

Hector Chadwick (Stephen Long)

Derren doesn’t really keep up with the world of magic, but he has really enjoyed Christian Grace’s work on billet switches recently. 

Be human. Be likable in a way that is right for you and love what you’re doing. It’s not about the trick, it’s about your humanity. 

Derren’s Twitter

Derren’s Instagram 

Derren’s Website 

Jonah is joined by Nathan Coe Marsh this week to talk about finding inspiration, guiding your audience, and balancing your approach to business. Nathan is a magician from Orlando who splits his time between magic venues and the corporate performing world.
After seeing his father’s friend perform Kennedy’s floating bill, Nathan was hooked. He laid awake at night, trying to figure out how the trick was done. When he learned he could buy the trick, his excitement escalated and his interest grew. While it started as a hobby that he would nervously perform for friends, he eventually landed a job at a summer camp teaching magic.
From summer camp to shows to walk around, Nathan recognized that the more he worked, the more polished his material. He struck deals with dinner theatres to let him perform closeup whenever he wanted, and he spent nights at comedy clubs refining his material in front of a crowd that wasn’t there to see a magician. All of this was important in shaping who he is on stage today as a performer.

If you want to uncover and create good ideas, you need a notebook. As you go through magic material, you’re going to uncover effects or concepts that appeal to you, but at the moment don’t quite feel right. In your future studies, however, you may find yourself drawn back to an idea with how to shape it to fit you. Nathan points to the effect he did on Fool Us as an example of an idea that started merely as a quote in his notebook. 

However, you shouldn’t confine yourself to just magic. You have to be curious in the world and explore where your passions take you. When you sit down to create, your interests are what will shape your decisions and choices. 

When approaching scripting, Nathan has a few approaches he takes depending on the goal he’s trying to accomplish. One such process is recording himself walking through the performance as if there’s an audience and transcribing what he said. With words on paper, he can begin to edit. 

His main concern with scripting is to lead his audience through four goalposts: focus, rapport, climax, and emotional reaction. Nathan wants to bring this room of strangers together as an audience, take them down a path, and then have them leave the theatre having experienced a particular sensation. 

Rehearsal is a numbers game to Nathan. For sleights, he works them into his daily routines, finding ways to accomplish reps of moves throughout the day. For his act, he’ll set up a space for his show in his home so he can fully practice his routine. Overall, finding ways to schedule shows and

When starting out, it’s imperative to find a balance between working on your business and working on your performance. By focusing your efforts on just one or the other, you’ll slow your progress down and prevent yourself from developing your business. Nathan explains that there is an inherent intertwining of your business’ pipeline with the quality of your show. So, don’t feel guilty when you’re working on material, but don’t like your booking and marketing tactics fall to the wayside. 

After exploring where your interests are, you’ll need to eventually sit down and ask yourself where exactly you belong. Does the stage call to you? Or is walk around where you thrive? By being honest about where you thrive, you can continue to build up your skill set in that area.  

Jack Goldfinger

Nathan likes the proliferation of high-end magic venues. While magicians are given a reason to elevate their magic, the public has the chance to experience strong magic. 

He isn’t fond of how magic clubs have failed to adapt to the internet, essentially losing the upcoming generations. Everyone’s an expert online and twelve-year-olds don’t know how to discern what is and isn’t right. 

Be willing to suck. 

Nathan’s Website

Nathan’s Penguin Act 

Nathan’s Instagram 

Nathan’s YouTube