Community Signal – Détails, épisodes et analyse

In March, the volunteer moderators of the Change My View subreddit learned that researchers at the University of Zurich had been covertly conducting an experiment on their community members. By injecting AI-generated comments and posts into conversations, the researchers had wanted to measure the persuasiveness of AI.

There was one big problem: They didn't tell community members that they were being experimented on. They didn't tell the community moderators. They didn't tell Reddit's corporate team. Only when they were getting ready to publish, did they disclose their actions.

It then became clear that beyond the lack of consent, they had engaged in other questionable behavior: Their AI-written contributions had spanned multiple accounts, pretending to be a rape victim, a trauma counselor focusing on abuse, a Black man opposed to Black Lives Matter, and more.

Community response was swift: Overwhelmingly, members were unhappy. The moderators insisted the research not be published. Reddit threatened legal action. Initially, the researchers were defiant but eventually, they apologized and pledged not to publish the research.

Change My View volunteer moderator Logan MacGregor joins the show to discuss what went on behind the scenes, plus:

• The danger of publishing the research
• Reaction to the apology
• How AI is going to challenge the idea of trusting an online community

Blame the manipulators, not the members and moderators (1:49): "Manipulation in online communities has existed forever. What's happening with [AI is] the believability, the speed at which people can do it. … The fault always rests with the person who chooses to manipulate the community. It's easy to fool people … and to do something that undermines the trust of something. It's harder to build trust." -Patrick O'Keefe

Why a promise not to publish was important (13:21): "From my perspective, I think the things that we wanted the most [from the researchers were] an apology and a promise not to publish. The second was really important because we were concerned that if this was published in a peer-review journal … if it was elevated to a prominent journal, that our community, which is supposed to be a protected human space, would now become just another sandbox for researchers. We felt very strongly that it should not be published. … Unfortunately, it didn't land well." -Logan MacGregor

When a community leader stands for their community, they often stand for all communities (14:52): "When one community person – a volunteer, a host, a person in this line of work – stands up for their community, they stand up for all communities." -Patrick O'Keefe

Just because bad comments exist online doesn't mean new ones won't cause harm (20:10): "So much of what [the researchers] did to try to prevent harm was to say 'comments like this happen all the time online, we don't think that it's going to cause individual trauma.' We kind of dispute that because some of the comments are [you] pretending to be a trauma counselor and maybe that could actually cause some harm. … I don't think they thought enough about community impact until after the community screamed 'ouch.'" -Logan MacGregor

You can't just blame AI for this (22:52): "One thing that's really special about Change My View is that it's a human space; it's a decidedly human space. … The University of Zurich is a decidedly human space. What I think is so insidious about AI is it's caused people to behave in ways that I don't know we would have, without the stupid thinking machines. Because it's a toxic influence. Unlike the bots that are invading us daily, that we're constantly shutting down. …

"That hurts a little bit more than just dealing with bots, because this wasn't just bots. These are people interacting with other people, and there was a human element there. The researchers are real people. I'm a real person. This happened between real people, and it wasn't just AI." -Logan MacGregor

How did the community respond when the experiment was disclosed? (24:47): "I would say there was this collective outrage [from the community]. … It was a unique and singular violation of the ethos of the sub, and it was especially palpable because there are a lot of researchers and research-affiliated people that are fond of the sub. It seemed like: We protect national parks, and we have national monuments – these protected spaces – and it almost felt on that level. Of all the places to do this, why Change My View?" -Logan MacGregor

Researchers can help online communities in this moment, but not if they can't be trusted (34:13): "One of the things that I worry about when it comes to AI is it's probably going to chip away … at this idea of having protected online spaces, because if in-person conversations are the only way that you can validate that you're not talking to a robot, then this thing that we created called the internet, it's going to cease to have value at all.

"That's the fear, and I have hope that we're going to be able to figure out a way to get past that challenge, but I'm scratching my head as to how we would do that. The true tragedy in this whole piece is that the very people that I think are best equipped to help us navigate that space are now distrusted because of this experiment. We need to heal that, and I don't know how that's going to happen." -Logan MacGregor

Logan MacGregor is a member of the volunteer mod team on r/changemyview. Drawing from a unique blend of experience including social work, administration, program management, project management (including research-based projects), policy, strategic development, and emergency management, Logan is a credentialed Type 3 Planning Section Chief that is planning to complete the Master's program at the Center for Homeland Defense and Security, with a thesis likely focusing on information campaigns.

• Change My View subreddit, where Logan is a volunteer moderator
• Unauthorized Experiment on CMV Involving AI-generated Comments, the announcement made by the moderators revealing the existence of the experiment to the community
• Reddit slams 'unethical experiment' that deployed secret AI bots in forum by Vivian Ho for the Washington Post
• CMV AI Experiment Update – Apology Received from Researchers, an update posted by the moderators after researchers apologized
• Don't Create Fake Accounts on Your Community and Don't Lie to Your Members by Patrick, discussing how Steve Huffman taught students to create fake accounts in their online communities
• How MetaFilter's Founder (Successfully) Stepped Away From the Community After 16 Years, the Community Signal episode with the story of Scott Adams impersonating a Scott Adams fan
• 'Unethical' AI research on Reddit under fire by Cathleen O'Grady for Science

• View transcript our website

If you have any thoughts on this episode that you'd like to share, please leave me a comment or send me an email. Thank you for listening.

When private equity buys online community platforms, who wins? What about if those platforms were built on open source software? Does the company continue to be a good citizen of the open source community that helped build the product?

History has shown us that it is often the community managers and pros who lose. They might not just lose a good platform though, they might lose their job.

Lincoln Russell has an interesting perspective on this topic. He joined Vanilla Forums, an open source community software platform, as a senior developer in 2011, having already used it for a couple of years. He left the company in 2020, then the director of engineering. Lincoln has continued to use the software. Vanilla Forums was subsequently purchased by Higher Logic, a company lacking a meaningful history of open source contributions.

As a matter of disclosure, both Higher Logic and Vanilla Forums are past sponsors of the show.

Lincoln and I also discuss:

• How Vanilla Forums' open source ethos shifted over time
• The importance of data migration standards for community software
• Is community software best built by small businesses?

Your community software provider must answer this (16:38): "The first question you should ask a [community software] vendor is: How easy is it to leave you? It's not a fun question to ask, but the answer is crucial to me. It's a deal-breaker question." -Patrick O'Keefe

Some community platforms try to lock their customer data into the platform (18:07): "When [a client is] onboarding [to new community software during the] initial year or two, they don't care about their data export. It's at the end. That's a long-term reputational issue about how people talk about their experiences. We saw that with [community software] competitors. We had some trouble with a couple of competitors in trying to get the data from them and spent way more hours than particular customers were worth – just on principle, honestly – getting the data out for them because we were so personally offended. At least I was." -Lincoln Russell

When you aren't selling community software to the people who will actually use it (20:37): "In the [community software] sales process, you identify stakeholders – people that are decision makers. A lot of the time they weren't a community manager. A lot of the time it was a director of technology, it was a CEO, or other positions, and that warps your roadmap.

"When those are the people that [the] sales team [is] sitting in front of, day in and day out, and you're pitching an improved moderation queue, they want this button that does this thing. You're like, 'But that's stupid.' But it doesn't matter. If those are the people you're selling to, [with] their own idea of community that doesn't actually align with community management because they have internal business goals, and all they want to do are check those boxes." -Lincoln Russell

Why community professionals should drive community platform choice (22:10): "Although I'd like to believe, ego-wise, that I could make a community out of whatever piece of garbage application you throw in front of me, I know the software can either help me or hurt me, and it's tough when you're making dinner with someone else's ingredients." -Patrick O'Keefe

Great ideas need great communicators (23:44): "The biggest issue with charting a course is you need a really clear vision, and you also need someone who can articulate that vision a lot, and over and over again, to the right people in the right circumstances. You need an external marketer. All of us in engineering at Vanilla [were] all introverts. None of us were going to conferences and giving talks about our vision for community software. It just wasn't in us to do that. I think we were poorer off in that we had some really good ideas, and could have shifted the conversation a bit, but we didn't put our energy there because that was a lot of energy." -Lincoln Russell

Protecting your culture makes you unique from the big social media platforms (33:43): "I think this idea of being more private and being very selective about what you present to the world, and having an internal culture that is protected from the internet – not promoted to the internet – is the future of these independent community spaces because that's the space those [bigger] platforms cannot touch." -Lincoln Russell

Community drives great software projects (37:04): "To build great software, like the great software projects that are going to outlive me, you need a community of people committed to working on them for long periods of time. [You need] to replace those people when they leave, but you have to have a system to keep that going, not just like, [we] got great five minds in a room and they did a thing, and then they cash out at the end. That's not sustainable." -Lincoln Russell

Lincoln Russell is the vice president of engineering for uConnect, which builds virtual career centers for colleges and universities to help students get better jobs. Earlier in his career, he spent 8 and a half years at Vanilla Forums, starting as a senior developer in 2011 and leaving in 2020 as the director of engineering.

• Lincoln's website
• Higher Logic Vanilla, from Higher Logic
• uConnect, where Lincoln is vice president of engineering
• Automattic, the company behind WordPress.com
• WordPress.org, the home of the WordPress open source community
• Arlington-Based Higher Logic Acquires Montreal's Vanilla by Richard Foster for Virginia Business
• Nitro Porter, Lincoln's community platform migration tool
• Lincoln's blog post announcing Nitro Porter
• Matt Mecham of Invision Community
• Matt Mecham on Community Signal

• View on our website

If you have any thoughts on this episode that you'd like to share, please leave me a comment or send me an email. Thank you for listening.

Recently, community pro Danielle Maveal joined Community Signal to discuss her experiences reporting into the product organization at Burb. In this episode, we're getting the opposite perspective from product leader Gitesh Gohel.

Gitesh and Patrick worked together at CNN, where community reported into product. And while the product and community that they were building were short lived, they both speak highly of their time working together. Gitesh describes creating a team atmosphere where each individual's expertise was respected and given room to ladder into organizational goals, giving each person the opportunity to see the impact of their work. Patrick shares how this fostered trust in processes and created great experiences for the community and the brand.

If you're debating a community role that reports into product, this conversation will give you insight into how that can be productive when the team has a strong foundation.

Patrick and Gitesh also discuss:

• Gitesh's first experience managing community pros as a product leader
• Why community pros should be excited about reporting into product
• The successes and promise of CNN+'s Interview Club

Making room for each individual's expertise within your org (11:35): "One thing which is really important, especially when it comes to collaboration, trusting each other, and being able to lean in on the skill set or experience that everyone brings to the table to accomplish a shared vision, is being able to create space and autonomy for folks to be able to do their jobs. One thing that we did at CNN, specifically working on Interview Club, was create goals which your team had by itself, but also having those goals be integrated into the success of the product itself." –@giteshg

The background of a product professional (12:54): "Most people don't train to be a product manager or to have an expertise in product development. … Most of my training came through experience. It was being part of a team who was building a product and being able to play a small role in it, being able to see what really good successful products look like, being able to see what do really healthy relationships look like across cross-functional teams." –@giteshg

Is product the right org for community? (25:42): "When you make community part of product, [you're saying] that your users are important, that the relationships that you develop with your users are important and positive, that you want to be able to not have a transactional relationship with your users, but actually one where you proactively engage, where you're proactively identifying ways in which you have your users connected." –@giteshg

Why should a community pro be excited about being part of the product org? (26:50): "[When community sits within product], in a way, you're closest to the decision maker, and I think that's important. What you are able to do is influence product strategy and how you think about what you build and who you're building for, and being able to bring the skills and expertise that you have directly into that conversation. [Product is] where you get to do the most fun stuff. It's where you get to say and explore different ideas that you want to try. It's a way in which you get the voice of the user closest to the way in which you think about what you end up doing." –@giteshg

Gitesh Gohel has 14 years of experience as a product leader solving user problems in the startup, consumer, media, political, and civic tech space for organizations like CNN, Tumblr, Giphy, Facebook, Jumo, and Obama 08. He is currently the VP of product for Narwhal.

• Gitesh Gohel on LinkedIn
• The Pros and Cons of Community Reporting to Product, Danielle Maveal on Community Signal
• Brigade
• Bassey Etim, who has been on multiple episodes of Community Signal

• View transcript on our website

If you have any thoughts on this episode that you'd like to share, please leave me a comment, send me an email or a tweet. If you enjoy the show, we would be so grateful if you spread the word and supported Community Signal on Patreon.

If you're wondering how you can more actively foster safety and belonging for LGBTQ+ folks in your online community, there's precedent to learn and borrow from. In this episode of Community Signal, we're joined by Samantha "Venia" Logan, the CEO and founder of Socially Constructed. Venia shares lessons from her decade of experience building community for LGBTQ+ individuals, which started when she began sharing her transition journey on YouTube. 

Patrick and Venia discuss tools, policies, and practices that can help build queer friendly spaces over time. For example, how easy is it for someone to edit their profile information within your online community? What specific policies do you have in place to protect LGTBQ+ people? And a big one – how are others in your organization (outside of the community team) contributing to diversity and inclusion?

At this point you might be asking, "how do I measure or communicate progress?" To this we ask, what are community-based outcomes that indicate someone feels safe contributing and like they belong? As Venia explains (15:23): "As a person feels more and more comfortable self-disclosing, they're going to use more organic language, they're going to talk a lot more, their rate of inclusion is going to increase, but so will the length of their posts." Work with your community to figure out which behaviors relate to their sense of inclusion and measure those over time.

Patrick and Venia also discuss:

• Making pronouns part of everyday conversations
• Twitter's policies and handling of a recent high-profile deadnaming case
• Being intentional about your metrics and KPIs (Key Performance Indicators)

Make space for everyone to share their pronouns in everyday conversation (08:48): "Pronouns are not just a segment that you're going to put on your profile. … At every meeting, [if] you invite people to share their pronouns – cis, trans, doesn't matter – it essentially says, pervasively speaking, this is a queer-friendly, queer-safe space. … Oftentimes, you want to implement these rules so that you're not looking for explicit consent, you're looking for implicit acceptance." –@SamanthaVenia

Focus on tracking the behaviors that matter most to your community (14:23): "[With behavioral metrics], we need to return to a notion of simplicity, where we are recording things that people actually want us to listen to. When people engage in our online communities, they are leaving behind comments, behaviors, artifacts of conversation, and they want us to pay attention to those things, so why are we recording every single move they make in a community and not recording anything about the nature of the comment they left?" –@SamanthaVenia

Perfectly accurate data reporting does not exist, instead, try replicating your results (18:06): "Instead of worrying about gross amounts of accuracy in your data … [measure] it again. The exact same thing that you did, in a second spot, in a second scope, just do it again, and again, and again. Once you repeat the same process and you have four corollary actions that are all telling you the same thing and one that's different, what is the resolution of your action? It just skyrocketed without you ever having to be accurate. Social science is not about causation, it's about enough correlation to infer causation." –@SamanthaVenia

Keep spaces safe by upholding the commitment to exclusivity (20:50): "Don't expand what's working for a safe space because keeping an exclusive space is what made that place safe. Instead, go over to the other place, reproduce your success, diversify it. The phrase that I use is 'Don't expand, diversify.' Exclusivity breeds inclusivity." –@SamanthaVenia

If you're creating a space for everyone, you're creating a space for no one (23:56): "When you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one, and you end up having no one because no one feels particularly special, or catered to, or welcome in those spaces." –@patrickokeefe

Focus on your role of setting precedent, building momentum (24:59): "I will boil down any community management job from architect, coordinator, moderator, facilitator… it doesn't matter what you do in community. Your job is to set precedent, to do a thing, then build momentum for that thing until the community is doing it on its own." –@SamanthaVenia

In 2010, Samantha "Venia" Logan transitioned from male to female and shared her entire 10-year journey on YouTube. Over the next decade, that decision snowballed into an active and healthy career in community management, diversity, education, and measurement in anonymous community health. In 2012, Venia founded RESCQU.NET, a nonprofit organization that simultaneously marketed to an invisible audience and catered to their anonymity. In 2017, she graduated with a degree focused on community management and became a full-stack marketer at DigitalMarketer.

For the past five years, Venia has built quantitative and qualitative data measurement tools for brand communities online. Through SociallyConstructed.Online, she is committed to helping businesses build robust, self-sustainable communities.

• Samantha "Venia" Logan on LinkedIn
• Venia on YouTube
• Venia on Twitter
• RESCQU.NET
• SociallyConstructed.Online
• "3 Takeaways From a Decade Building Queer Community"
• 2022 Edelman Trust Barometer
• Chris Mercer
• Twitter's hateful conduct policy
• Socially Constructed's Discord and YouTube channel

• View transcript on our website

If you have any thoughts on this episode that you'd like to share, please leave me a comment, send me an email or a tweet. If you enjoy the show, we would be so grateful if you spread the word and supported Community Signal on Patreon.

All reporting structures have their pros and cons, but product and community share the job of "deeply understand[ing] what the user wants and what their motivations are, and how to get them from point A to point B (2:17)." With a shared mandate, community and product teams that effectively partner can expand each other's influence and success.

No matter what team you report into, creating a foundation in which all teams have respect for each other's knowledge, experience, and processes is critical to every team, the business, and the community itself. Tune in to hear how Patrick and Danielle have fostered product relationships at Burb, CNN, Lyft, and more.

Danielle and Patrick also discuss:

• The value that community pros can bring to product teams
• Learning and leveraging product's processes
• How the OKR (objectives and key results) goal structure can be adapted by community pros

Community can be very repetitive (7:37): "[Product] structures don't always work for a community team. Sometimes product teams are very much into launching features … and then feature usage. Community is a lot of repetitive tasks or maintenance. These things are important. It's hard to fit under almost any team actually because we do have this kind of work where mostly, especially in tech, everyone's trying to launch something and get awesome feedback on it. That's not always the case in community." –@daniellexo

Product and community can partner to expand each org's influence and success (18:16): "Having community in your product team is an opportunity for product leaders to increase their mandate and increase their influence. It's not just one way. It's not just community influencing product. It's increasing the influence of product within the wider org, too." –@patrickokeefe

Approaching your product team with community feedback (22:35): "It's really important to bring problems. Bring as much data as you can, make partners with other teams who are also getting this feedback and data. … Have as much support as you can around this problem. You can even tell stories from the community about this problem, but just don't barge in with the solution that the community wants because it's never going to get people on your side. It's not going to motivate them to want to work on that project." –@daniellexo

Maintain a bird's eye view of issues impacting your community (25:14): "Fires are burning. People are fighting. People are upset. … There's a little community [forming] that's making this thing look like an emergency, and it's not always an emergency. [It's] really important to have partnerships with other teams; data science, research, customer service, and make sure you have a really bird's eye view of a story before you go to product or engineering, trust and safety, or legal with your requests." –@daniellexo

Being on the defensive for product enhancements can rob you of creative opportunities (31:38): "When you're spending a lot of your energy, time, and mind thinking up all [the counterpoints to expected criticisms,] the defensive positions, and backing up everything you say, there's little room to come to the table with someone and actually dream up something better. Usually, you're just defending the bare minimum. If you can build that trust, and if you have a team that will trust you and work together to build that trust, you can use that time to be creative. Go leaps forward versus, 'Ugh, we just need to maintain the status quo, so I need to fight for this one little thing.'" –@daniellexo

Being a community person on a product team can make you better (32:16): "Ultimately, I think that being on a product team can make, with some exceptions, you a better community person, and a broader community person." –@patrickokeefe

Danielle Maveal is a serial founding team member. She's been building community at Etsy, Airbnb, and Lyft for 15 years. She's the chief community officer at Burb, a messaging, automation, and CRM toolset for community builders. Danielle also coaches community professionals and runs multiple support groups for community builders.

• Danielle Maveal on Twitter
• Danielle Maveal on LinkedIn
• Burb
• Danielle's past appearance on Community Signal

• View transcript on our website

If you have any thoughts on this episode that you'd like to share, please leave me a comment, send me an email or a tweet. If you enjoy the show, we would be so grateful if you spread the word and supported Community Signal on Patreon.

Do you manage an international community? How do you thoughtfully foster community across different continents, languages, and norms? Mercedes Oppon-Kusi, the community manager for Europe for the International Legal Technology Association, is working to do just that for their community of technology pros working at law firms.

With ILTA originating in the U.S., Mercedes shares the differences in behaviors between U.S. and Europe-based community members, and how she has approached expanding the European chapter to include more countries. Her strategy comes back to advice that's helpful no matter what stage your community is at: Overcome your biases as a community professional. Take time to learn the interests and challenges that impact your community members and scale thoughtfully.

As Mercedes puts it, "[It's] about building that practical knowledge of the market, and then figuring out where to go first."

Plus:

• How to help community members break through the "I don't have enough time" barrier
• Why U.S. members are more engaged than their European counterparts
• In-person events that help members feel bought-in to the ILTA community

How ILTA community members help each other grow (6:45): "You have the people that have been there and done it, you have people that are looking to branch into it, and you have the people that want to grow in it. That's what our communities do. They help our members learn how to become better than they are." –@M4Mercedes

Tech pros at U.S. law firms are more likely to share experiences (7:38): "[With] our membership pool in the U.S., you will not struggle to get a big firm to share. They're proud of it. They're like, 'We've done this so well because we're amazing, and this is how we did it,' but in the UK, they're decidedly more reserved. It's very hard to get the big firms to share about anything. I don't know what it is, but it does seem like people are nervous because they do not want to be seen as bragging, so it differs according to the geographies. It's not really by firm size." –@M4Mercedes

Localizing matters to your community members (19:07): "A lot of our material has the word attorney, which doesn't exist in the UK. We have solicitors and barristers. … There are little tweaks around the material and our language that we've had to do in order to localize what we're providing to [the UK] region. … It's a big deal to people." –@M4Mercedes

Growing the ILTA community and reaching new members (24:25): "The challenge is finding your first [community members] that are going to be your champions. Once you have that, they're usually a good insight into the networks and what topics exist, and they're really good at introducing you to other individuals that might have similar interests." –@M4Mercedes

Mercedes Oppon-Kusi is the community manager for Europe for the International Legal Technology Association, a community for technology pros working at law firms.

• Mercedes Oppon-Kusi on LinkedIn
• International Legal Technology Association (ILTA)
• The Chatham House Rule

• View transcript on our website

If you have any thoughts on this episode that you'd like to share, please leave me a comment, send me an email or a tweet. If you enjoy the show, we would be so grateful if you spread the word and supported Community Signal on Patreon.

WordPress, the popular open source CMS, powers a reported 43%+ of the web, including this site. It is backed by a global community of contributors who volunteer their time in all sorts of ways, from code to documentation to training. But did you know that many of the project's biggest contributors are sponsored by their employer to provide that time?

As we discussed with Brad Williams of WebDevStudios, the success of WordPress has created an economy around the software, growing and launching many businesses that serve the needs of its users, from personal blogs to major corporations. And one of the way those companies give back is through these sponsorships.

No company is more tied to WordPress than Automattic, the owners of WordPress.com, which was founded by the co-founder of WordPress, Matt Mullenweg. Hugh Lashbrooke is the head of community education at Automattic, which sponsors him for 40 hours a week, primarily to contribute to WordPress' training team.

Hugh joins us on this episode to give us an inside look at these sponsorship arrangements and how they influence WordPress team dynamics. Plus:

• What happens when a company stops sponsoring an employee to contribute to WordPress?
• The flexibility you need to work with volunteers on such a massive project
• "Public by default" as a standard of work

If you enjoy our show, please know that it's only possible with the generous support of our sponsor: Hivebrite, the community engagement platform.

How sponsored contributors bolstered WordPress' training team (6:49): "[After COVID struck, the community team] realized that people weren't getting the training they normally get at events. … It started off as an informal conversation with the existing training team, which wasn't huge in terms of numbers. … We came together and now, we have this platform called Learn WordPress, which is where all of this content is housed. The idea for Learn WordPress existed in the training team before but because they were a small team … they didn't have the resources to really get that going like they wanted. When we came on board, and because we are sponsored volunteers and we have more time and access to more resources, we were able to help them do more and now, we're working alongside them very closely to make the platform better." –@hlashbrooke

Automattic can't track the financial impact of contributors they sponsor (21:16): "As WordPress improves, and becomes more popular, that helps Automattic improve profits and revenue. In our division, we don't track financial ROI at all. We don't have anything to track in that sense, so we don't. But our work in the open source project does benefit Automattic financially. … As people get better with WordPress and WordPress becomes more popular, easier to use, and more well-known, Automattic's business grows." –@hlashbrooke

COVID led to volunteer drop-off (27:18): "COVID had a big impact on [volunteers dropping off]. The lockdown, everyone being at home, and just the general stress of what's going on in the world. As we got to mid-to-late 2020, and then going all through 2021 and even now, a big dip in contributors. People weren't as committed as they were before. People who said they would be committed, they just slowly disappeared. There was just a trend that we saw, and it was very clearly because of the response to everything going on and the world being so stressful." –@hlashbrooke

Allowing people to weigh-in can slow things down, but increase long-term engagement (35:40): "If you make a decision about how we're going to lay out the homepage of something, for example, if we say, 'This is what we do' and we do it, then people look at it like, 'Oh, okay.' If you've had 15 people in the community contribute their voice to it and give their input on it, they'll be more interested, and they might be more interested in contributing further because they're like, 'Oh, my voice actually matters, so I want to contribute more.' Sure, it makes things take longer, but it means they generally stick around for longer because they can see the impact and the effect of their input." –@hlashbrooke

Hugh Lashbrooke is a long-time community builder, currently serving as head of community education for the WordPress open source project, sponsored by Automattic. He leads a team that is building and managing an education program for the WordPress community.

• Sponsor: Hivebrite, the community engagement platform
• Hugh's website
• Automattic, where Hugh is head of community education, sponsored to spend 40 hours per week contributing to WordPress
• Brad Williams of WebDevStudios on Community Signal
• Learn WordPress, an educational resource that Hugh's team works on
• A Dedicated Volunteer Program for the Training Team by Hugh, covering the "faculty program" idea
• Exploring WordPress Certifications by Hugh
• Hugh on Twitter

• View transcript on our website

If you have any thoughts on this episode that you'd like to share, please leave me a comment, send me an email or a tweet. If you enjoy the show, we would be so grateful if you spread the word and supported Community Signal on Patreon.

As the former director of community for HuffPost, where he led the management of an active, massive comment section, Tim McDonald has had a unique vantage point to the mass closure of news media comment sections. Patrick and Tim go in depth on that topic on this episode.

Toward the end, Tim shares what he believes will be his greatest community ROI story: He has stage IV colon cancer and is in need of a liver donor and could get a lot closer with your help.  Please visit TimsLiver.com for more info.

Plus:

• Why Tim believes he doesn't make a good soccer referee – or content moderator
• Keeping track of your community wins – both qualitative and quantitative
• Leveraging relationships with influential community members to get your message across, rather than being the face of the community yourself

If you enjoy our show, please know that it's only possible with the generous support of our sponsor: Hivebrite, the community engagement platform.

You can't make everyone happy in moderation (10:56): "I would hate it when there was a close call [as a soccer referee] because I knew in my head what the call was but I knew if I looked at it objectively from one team's viewpoint and from the other team's viewpoint, half were going to be happy with me, half were going to be upset with me, and I wanted to make everybody happy. You can't do that in comment moderation, and you can't do that being a referee." –@tamcdonald

Allowing influential members to do the talking (11:34): "I didn't need to get into the [HuffPost] community and be the face of the community. I could just have relationships with about a dozen of our community members who were very well respected and let them do the talking. But in exchange, I would take phone calls from them at home, at night, on the weekends. I would listen to them, I would understand what they were going through, but I would also be able to convey what, from a company standpoint, we were trying to achieve. When I did that, they started understanding." –@tamcdonald

If we aren't going to invest in it, why spend so much effort? (19:08): "My very last day [at HuffPost was] when we pushed the button and [switched to Facebook Comments]. Everybody looked at me like I was crazy, but I just told everybody, 'I've come up with solutions. I've come up with options. Nobody wants to pay for this. If we can't invest in it, and we're not willing to invest in it, and we're not going to generate any revenue off of it, why are we supporting it?' That was the end of it. Obviously, they still had comments. They still do have comments, but it's nothing to what it was back when I was at HuffPost." –@tamcdonald

Document your community wins (22:53): "The subscriber growth of The New York Times is often cited … by media folks and executives as an example of the D2C model, but I think people would do well to remember that The New York Times never closed their comments. … People want that success of, 'Look at all the people they have paying for news,' but they don't necessarily want to do that work that is moderating comments for 20 years to build a section that is befitting of The New York Times." –@patrickokeefe

Document your community wins (30:02): "We say [document your wins], but we don't necessarily always talk about the process through which we capture that, and so it fails. … If it's easy and it's comprehensive, then you're going to do it. Whereas if it's manual and it's slow, not only are you not going to do it, but when you don't do it, you're going to not be able to access that information as easily." –@patrickokeefe

Generous giving is the greatest community ROI (34:16): "When I find [a liver] donor through [the communities] I've built up over the years, that is going to be the greatest ROI because I don't think there's a price that we can put on our lives, and I don't think there's a price that we can put on the amount of giving that that would take from another human being." –@tamcdonald

Tim McDonald is the community account manager for HomeRoom.club. He is the former director of community at HuffPost, founder of My Community Manager, and director of communications for Social Media Club Chicago. Tim works with organizations and individuals who are stuck to get them unstuck. He helps people connect with their voice and stories. He is also a speaker and facilitates workshops.

Recognizing how fear held him back, he has changed his relationship with fear and has used it to get unstuck and end a 17-year marriage, meet his life partner, move to a new city, twice, leave a toxic job, and currently looks at having stage IV metastasized colon cancer as a gift. Tim is in search of a liver donor with surgery planned around September 2022. If you think this could be you, please visit TimsLiver.com for more info.

• Sponsor: Hivebrite, the community engagement platform
• Tim McDonald on Twitter
• Visit TimsLiver.com to help Tim find a liver donor
• HomeRoom.club
• My Community Manager
• Social Media Club
• Bassey Etim, many time guest on Community Signal
• When You Need Community To Save Your Life: The Story of Tim McDonald, by listener and Patreon supporter Jenny Weigle

• View transcript on our website

If you have any thoughts on this episode that you'd like to share, please leave me a comment, send me an email or a tweet. If you enjoy the show, we would be so grateful if you spread the word and supported Community Signal on Patreon.

What are the reasons why you would voluntarily end the interview process for a community role? If you give it some thought, you'll probably come up with some!

Ryan Arsenault and Patrick share real stories from their careers, giving the reasons why they decided against continuing to interview with certain companies, including some you've heard of.

This leads to a conversation on the community opportunists, and how Web3 and NFT projects often fit into this category. What does it mean for your career if a rug pull happens on your NFT project? What responsibility do community industry players have in hyping these projects? After they remove the .eth from their handle, who is left holding the bag?

Patrick and Ryan also discuss:

• The simple question Patrick asks recruiters to understand if what they are building is a community
• Using "community" as a manipulation tactic
• Why Web3 hype feels different from Web2 hype

If you enjoy our show, please know that it's only possible with the generous support of our sponsor: Hivebrite, the community engagement platform.

A case where Ryan ended the interview for a community role (1:39): "[I have become] more experienced in identifying the red flags that might not set me up for success in [a community] role. … In one interview, the platform was purchased already. No community goals in mind. No strategy. How do you know if the platform is even going to meet your needs if you don't know what you need the community for yet?" –@RyanArsenault

Does the community talk to each other? (10:48): "I got to talking with the [recruiter for a community role], and I realized something. I said, 'Let me stop you for a second. These people that are in this community, do they talk to one another?' She said, 'No.' I said, 'Oh okay, I understand. I have to say I don't think I'm right for this.' … That's just a different role from what I do." –@patrickokeefe

Does buying an NFT make it a community? (12:35): "To me, the concept of buying an NFT, and then you're part of a Discord community, doesn't make it a community. A community's built on trust and moderation." –@RyanArsenault

Using "community" to keep people from leaving an NFT project (16:51): "When there's a rug pull … whatever they were thinking they would get out of this NFT project, it's gone now, or there's almost no chance. To use the term 'community' as a way to try to make people feel better or to ensure they stay bought in with that project and don't sell … it feels incredibly manipulative. … 'We're part of this community, we're all in this together, hold on for dear life, we're all going to make it,' all that stuff. It's all just social manipulation that's been going on forever." –@patrickokeefe

Ryan Arsenault has been fascinated by the power of community as a member of online forums for two decades. He has managed communities for over 7 years, building strategy and scaling super user and advocacy programs, while establishing trust and lasting relationships. He has worked in pre- and post-IPO companies, and won a 2018 TheCR Connect Award for Best Recognition + Reward Program (for Mimecast community).

• Sponsor: Hivebrite, the community engagement platform
• Ryan Arsenault on Twitter
• Intuit's TurboTax, where Ryan is a contact community manager
• "I worked at Vistaprint – maybe you've heard of them?," via Patrick
• Jacob Silverman on Community Signal

• View transcript on our website

If you have any thoughts on this episode that you'd like to share, please leave me a comment, send me an email or a tweet. If you enjoy the show, we would be so grateful if you spread the word and supported Community Signal on Patreon.

Is speaking one-on-one with your community members part of your community strategy? For Tosin Abari, when building paid professional communities, it's an integral part. His phone calls with community members provide an opportunity to reset the tone and remind each member of what they can learn, share, and achieve with their fellow community members.

Through this work, Tosin often finds that these one-on-one conversations with community members translate into their first forum post, or later down the line, becoming a community ambassador. What personal touches help you form deeper connections with your community members?

Where'd this strategy come from? Tosin has also worked as a director of player development Vanderbilt University's football team. He explains how his work building relationships with students and their parents, helping them start off on this new chapter of their lives, prepared him for work in community management. 

Patrick and Tosin also discuss:

• Tosin's background in football
• Why Tosin started taking phone calls with members without mentioning it to Patrick, his manager at the time
• Where we focus our efforts in a world without vanity metrics

If you enjoy our show, please know that it's only possible with the generous support of our sponsor: Hivebrite, the community engagement platform.

Helping members see the potential in the community (10:22): "There's so many people out there that have the same struggles that you do, or maybe something that you've conquered, and you have expertise that you can share with someone else. … [Each community member has] an opportunity to make a difference, or have someone else make a difference in their lives. They can make something beautiful happen." -Tosin Abari

Having phone calls with members (12:35): "Most places I've been at, they're like, 'No, we don't have time [for phone calls with members].' … We have X amount of members, we just got to do what we got to do through email orientation, and they'll figure it out. That always gnawed at me a little bit, because these people are paying X amount of dollars for a membership, and we want to give them the best experience of their life. … [These one-on-one calls can help] other people feel like they're not isolated, that they're in a place that holds space for them." -Tosin Abari

Giving each member the space to feel heard (18:06): "I don't know how many times I've gotten nasty emails [and] I'm like, 'Oh my God, this is going to be a very contentious call.' I let them talk [and] by the end of the conversation, they're like, 'Thank you for having this call with me. You calmed me down, and I feel so much better.' It was just because they wanted to be heard." -Tosin Abari

Owning your work with your manager (25:50): "Never let [your manager] be surprised by bad news. If there is bad news, [they] should hear it from you first, before anyone else. Don't let [them] be surprised, because if [they are] surprised, it's going to make matters worse. … You should be the person who delivers the message." –@patrickokeefe

Tosin Abari (he/him/his) is a former collegiate football administrator turned motivated community manager and social media aficionado. With over 10 years of experience in community management and memberships, as well as front-end and back-end social media management, Tosin is extremely passionate in bringing people together with the goal of fostering authentic community.

• Sponsor: Hivebrite, the community engagement platform
• Tosin Abari on LinkedIn
• Photos of Patrick's son, Patrick James
• Kindred

• View transcript on our website

If you have any thoughts on this episode that you'd like to share, please leave me a comment, send me an email or a tweet. If you enjoy the show, we would be so grateful if you spread the word and supported Community Signal on Patreon.