Career Relaunch® – Détails, épisodes et analyse

Have you ever felt a bit out of place in your current job? Do you ever feel more like an outsider than an insider at your company? Have you ever struggled to fit in at your workplace?
In episode 103 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Dorna Lakayan, an architect and designer, describes her international journey to figure out where she belongs, the challenges of penetrating new professional circles, and the emotional dynamics of running your own business I also share some thoughts on fitting into new environments during the Mental Fuel® segment.

💭 Key Career Change Insights

1. While your instincts can serve you well, over time, logic and reason can overwhelm that instinct as you progress in your career, which can stop you from making brave leaps that align with your true ambitions.
2. Some days, you may wake up and feel like you’re making zero progress, but you still have to find a way to bravely put one foot in front of the other and make consistent efforts to keep moving forward both socially and professionally.
3. You often hear stories of success, but what lies beneath the surface are often lonely, challenging days where things haven’t gone according to plan. It’s part of the journey and helps you get where you ultimately want to go.
4. When people don’t respond in the way you want them to, it may not relate as much to you as it does to their situation or own struggles.
5. If you’re going through a tough time in your career, trust that this shall pass and life will go on. As long as you’re enthusiastic about what you’re doing and excited about your future, opportunities will arise.

💪🏼 Listener Challenge

During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged listeners to find an anchor point that’s consistently served you well, kept you grounded, or just helped you feel more in control. Identify an activity, skillset, person, or place you can reconnect with regularly to create that sense of familiarity that serves as a source of comfort, confidence, and certainty as you face those professional and personal challenges around you.

📖 Episode Chapters

00:00:00 Overview
00:01:07 Introduction
00:02:39 Chat with Dorna Lakayan
00:44:07 Mental Fuel
00:51:08 Listener Challenge
00:51:41 Wrap Up

👤 About Dorna Lakayan, Architect

Dorna Lakayan is an interior architect and furniture designer with Persian and Norwegian roots. With Studio Lakayan, she transforms houses into dream homes and brand identities into memorable venues worldwide. Her approach focuses on inhabitants being the center piece of a space, complementing habits and lifestyles through mindful space design and visual harmony. Her philosophy and approach center on the idea that “A good space creates space: to feel, to think, and to be you.

Be sure to check out her Lakayan Loves series where she shares her favorite icons in the world of architecture & design. Follow Dorna on Instagram and LinkedIn.

👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

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• Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on X and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.
   Connect with Joseph

💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

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🎵 Interview Segment Music Credits

• Comastudio – Background Meditative Ambient Music
• Bio Unit – Summer Rain
• Lama House – Tales of the Deep
• Podington Bear – Ice Climb
• Podington Bear – Dog and Pony Show
• Podington Bear – Night Vision
• Cora Zea – Velvet Uniform
• Podington Bear – Chimera
• Joystock – Acoustic Inspiration

📄 Interview Transcript

Joseph: I am looking forward to talking with you about a lot of your geographical transitions, and the ups and downs you’ve experienced along the way, your recent decision to start your own architectural firm. But I’d love to start by just first getting a snapshot of your life right now. What are you focused on both personally and also professionally at this moment?

Dorna: [02:55] For me, they are not really separated from each other. Maybe being a designer, I have always lived, eat, breathed design, sort of an attitude. My life is design and it’s really intersectionally going forward together. But my focus these days mostly is, of course, establishing my life here in the new country, new city, finding new friends, new colleagues, new collaborators. I’m figuring out what’s next.

Joseph: You haven’t always lived in Amsterdam. So, let’s start at the beginning and move forward from there. I’d like to actually go all the way back to your childhood when you grew up in Iran, which is where you’re from. What do you remember about your life in Iran as a child?

Dorna: [03:45] I think after coming to Europe, my biggest memory of Iran relates to the sun. It was a very sunny part of the world. Especially when you are a child, maybe you are more curious. You see more, you observe more. So I remember a lot of patterns, a lot of colors. We live in a part of the world where the sun is available. So a lot of architecture and a lot of things are built around it. The shadows. The concept of actually shadowed spaces and sunny spaces or light spaces. So there’s a lot of things about the architecture. Of course, I remember, but then, I came from a family where architecture was important or art was important. So maybe that’s why most of my memories are around it as well. Or maybe I was just curious as a child to become an architect, I don’t know.

Joseph: Were your parents also involved in some sort of design or architectural industry?

Dorna: [04:49] My dad is a civil engineer and my mom is an artist, or used to be. It was never a profession, but she was just into art. So she would paint and make a lot of things. As a child, I was a very preserved child. I wouldn’t show so much of my emotions. To help me to show more as a child, my mom taught me that I can create things and show things with creating stuff. I had ended up sewing, knitting, and all of those little things that a child can do. Painting, and writing cards and notes, and things like that. So that was my daily routine of creating.

Joseph: In most cases on this show, we would typically feature somebody who has a certain professional background and then they switch sectors and they maybe switch roles within a company. Now, in your case, you from a very early start, wanted to become an architect. At what point did you realize that and how did you know you wanted to become an architect?

Dorna: [05:44] Yeah, the thing is I didn’t have the title, so I didn’t know what I wanted to become is an architect. That was the whole. But I knew that I love to create and I love to do things within spaces. For many years, I had a title for myself. I called myself the psychologist of spaces. Because I really thought, or I still believe that, that you can somebody’s feelings, emotions, habits, a lot of things about how easy your life is by having good space. And then, as a child, I called myself a psychologist of space, of course.

But then, my best friend then was an architect. One evening, I saw a book in their home, which is the drawing of, or a picture of, the Frank Lloyd Wright’s waterfall house, the Fountain House. And then, when I saw that, this interaction between outside, inside was so interesting, and how the waterfall had gone under that building and all of these beautiful things. So I went to his father and said, “What should I do? What kind of profession should I have to be able to do this?” He said, “You need to be an architect.” That was the day I realized I needed to be an architect.

Joseph: For those people out there like me who have never been to Iran, how would you describe the overall professional scene in the city where you grew up?

Dorna: [07:23] When I left Iran, I was quite young. I was 24. So I can’t really say much about the professional scene because I worked only a few years there. But generally speaking, architecture and civil engineering, which are the dominant jobs in the field, are quite masculine. So you don’t see so many females on the — I didn’t. I don’t know, maybe now, it has changed. All I remember was that you needed some sort of support from somebody. But then, that can also come from the fact that I was very young. So I needed mentors and people who would help me. Generally, Iran is a country full of architecture. There is a big history and a very rich history about architecture in that part of the world, so you learn a lot. But it’s not practiced that way, of course, anymore.

Joseph: What ultimately led you to decide to leave Iran behind?

Dorna: [08:26] I don’t think you make this decision in Iran. You kind of grow with it, which is a kind of sad part of their story because it’s, according to me, one of the best places to be. Due to the whole situation in that part in the Middle East, with all the complications it has, I think as a child, if you have the ability to grow and learn and are curious enough to leave, you are kind of encouraged to do it from a very young age. That was the same for me.

I learned English when I was quite young. I started learning English at a very young age. And then, before you know it, when I felt like everything was settled and I’m now an architect and I can take care of myself and everything, it was time to be curious and leave. I cannot really say it was a decision made, but maybe it was, but it was also grown in me. It’s a very complicated thing to say. But generally speaking, comes out of curiosity to learn more and to see more. Because, obviously, I went to study. That’s how I left. The decision was not there if I was going back or not.

Joseph: What year was this?

Dorna: [09:36] 2010. That’s when I left the first time.

Joseph: This is not a political show. But, obviously, at the time, things were probably a bit unstable sanctions in place.

Dorna: [09:48] Yes.

Joseph: And so, I would imagine.

Dorna: [09:49] As a young person, of course, you have a future in front of you and you want to build and create, but you also know that things are not going to get better and the opportunities are not going to rise. I already see a lot of friends who are there. Imagine the inflation rate and all of these things are affecting your career, and your decisions, and all of that. So taking risks is harder. Hope, maybe; having a hopeful future is harder. In that sense, I think. Of course, I don’t regret that decision, but anyway, it’s your hometown. You have friends, and family, and memories, you speak the language. It’s a different thing.

Joseph: Just to switch gears here and talk about the next chapter of your career. Where did you go and how did you decide on where to go next?

Dorna: [10:43] First destination was Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur. That really just happened. Because I actually had been admitted to study architecture in Oxford. That day that I was supposed to get my ticket, I couldn’t. Oxford just said, “Oh, you’re too late.” I was like, “Okay, now what?” I had a friend who knew a few people in Malaysia. He was just like, “Yeah, why not go to Malaysia and see how it is?” I’m like, “Sure, let’s do that.” And then, I went to Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur. I went to the school, talked to a few people, liked it there. I said, “Okay, I want to study more of architecture.” And then, I started actually interior architecture. And then, after that, I worked a little bit. I worked at the school. I worked at an American company in design. And then, while I was there, I decided that I didn’t want to stay there. It didn’t feel like a place for me to want to build my future, like to call home. That’s when I decided to move towards Europe and see what is Europe.

Joseph: Now, I know you just mentioned you just got to have a friend, and then you end up moving to Kuala Lumpur. Did you have the means to just pick up and just move to a new country? It seems like a big leap to make. I guess immigration wasn’t an issue for you going into Malaysia.

Dorna: [12:09] When I went to Malaysia, first of all, I was not thinking that I was immigrating.

Joseph: I see.

Dorna: [12:13] In my head, I was going on this street to see what was happening. And then, I ended up staying. I was not even a student at the time. I went there, and I went to school, and I liked the school, and I stayed. The whole thing. Generally speaking, I always have been told in my life that I’m a very brave person. Up until a few years ago, I kept saying, “No, what’s brave about me?” But I have started to realize, maybe I am brave or braver than I think.

Joseph: Yeah.

Dorna: [12:41] Now, it’s funny for me when I think about it. What was I thinking? Twenty-three-year-old, and then you just go somewhere and you are like, “Oh, this is cool. I want to learn. Oh, my God, look at these buildings.” Because being in Iran, of course, you have all of these historical sites, and old vernacular, and clay architecture, and colors, and everything. I was in Kuala Lumpur with skyscrapers, and new modern technologies. Architects from Australia, America, Europe. Everybody was in Kuala Lumpur building something. So it was really a new theme of architecture. I was like this little kid who was in a candy store. It’s like, “Oh my God, look at this, and look at that, and look at this.” It was fun.

Joseph: Before we talk about your next move, you mentioned that you didn’t quite see your future there. What was it about being there that led you to believe that you didn’t envision yourself being there long-term?

Dorna: [13:43] I think it was mostly about the fact that — maybe this is too extreme to say it this way, but I didn’t feel safe as a citizen. Funnily, for me, I know this is not an impression for a lot of people, Iran was safer and more convenient to be at. Of course, this can come from the fact that I was an immigrant. So it’s a different level. You look different. Whatever you do, you look different.

And then, of course, we all know being a woman, it’s also another minority, a little bit, in our business, which is architecture, real estate, things like that. I didn’t really see myself building what I envisioned because I think, especially at that time, I was seeing myself like I wanted to be a Frank Lloyd Wright. That’s how I started the whole journey and that was not happening there. I couldn’t see that. I still was lacking some sort of trust in my surroundings or some sort of trust in what I want to build. That was not there for me yet. That can also come from the fact that I was a junior in Malaysia. It’s like you just graduated architecture school. You are super young.

Joseph: Yeah, that’s interesting. I do think that sometimes in our careers, and I consider myself quite a logical left-brained individual. But sometimes, you can just kind of feel that nothing is really going to progress where you’re at. You can just kind of feel it. You can kind of tell that there’s not really a future for you in this location, or this organization, or this sector, and you have to do something about it. Otherwise, you’ll just stagnate.

Dorna: [15:27] Funnily, now, every day, I’m trying so hard to go back to that because I think the older I got, the more I saw, the more wisdom came, the more doubt in my instinct also came with it. And then, when you are young, your instincts are talking really loud and clear. You trust them and you go for it, and that’s what everybody calls “young and crazy.” But I really now hope I can become young and crazy every day in my life. That would be fantastic.

Joseph: Right. So speaking about another potentially young and crazy move, you decided to move to Europe.

Dorna: [16:07] Yeah.

Joseph: Where did you end up going and why did you choose that destination?

Dorna: [16:11] I went from Kuala Lumpur, the city of never-ending summer to Oslo, part of the world that is well known for its lack of sunlight. Oslo was practically to do my master’s. My destination was Europe. That I knew the way to come to Europe for me in my head was to do my master’s. The main focus was, of course, architecture and design.

Joseph: This was general design.

Dorna: [16:42] Yeah, general design, exactly. But, of course, within space. So that’s what I wanted to do. And then, I sent applications to a few universities, among which National Academy of the Arts in Oslo gave me admission. At the time, I had to choose, of course, between these universities when I got, because I got admission from a few. The question was, “Which is my destination?” I didn’t really choose it based on the geography, but based on the school.

I did some research and National Academy of Arts where I was admitted to do a Master in Design at the best workshops available in Europe. Me, coming from this background in architecture where I had all the theory in my pocket, could really benefit from being somewhere where I can actually be hands-on and create with my hands, not only with my brain. That opportunity was 100% available in Oslo. I took that chance and I went there, and I can say it was one of the best experiences. Those two years at that school, I did a lot of hands-on work, and I learned a lot about construction.

Joseph: So it sounds like from an educational standpoint, this was a really positive move in your life.

Dorna: [18:03] One hundred percent.

Joseph: How would you describe how this move felt compared to your move going from Iran to Malaysia? Was it the same? Is this one of those quite modular skills being able to make an international move? Was it easier? Was it harder? How did it compare?

Dorna: [18:22] Iran was different from Malaysia, and Malaysia was different from Norway. Every country has its own ups and downs, and difficulties and challenges. So I can’t really put that on scale. But definitely, it was scarier for me to this time move. One thing that was very apparent and immediately tangible was the difference in the culture.

I came from a culture that was very giving, very social, and very warm and open to a culture that was quite preserved, very colder than my hometown and things like that. It was a challenge to figure out what now or how. There are these unwritten rules, I said, or social aspects that you have to learn or social codes that you have to crack. That was a challenge.

Joseph: You’ve touched on this. I wouldn’t mind going a little deeper into this because I think it’s a realistic consideration when you’re moving countries. You’ve talked about being a minority, both first of all, as a female in a quite male-heavy industry, but also a minority in the sense of being a minority as an immigrant in Oslo.

I was looking up some stats on this, and I was actually surprised, because I’ve been to Oslo before, and I had expected the immigration figures to be lower, but immigrants makeup about 35% of Oslo’s population, give or take. As a comparison in London, which is where I’m based, it’s around the same. It’s around 38%. I would have expected a slightly larger difference. New York City, it’s about 36%. But at the same time, regardless of whether it’s 36 % or half or 10%, you still recognize that you’re an immigrant in a country and you feel that.

Dorna: [20:11] Yeah.

Joseph: How much did that play into your life there? Were there any issues or challenges you faced either personally or professionally?

Dorna: [20:18] I mean, 100%, there are issues and challenges. I mean, as I just said, like there’s this unwritten user manual that you need to know. Nobody gives that user manual to you at the airport. You just come in and you have to kind of crack the code yourself. It depends on how open you are to trying. That also takes a lot of courage.

One aspect, of course, is the social aspect of the life in the Nordics, how you’re going to make new friends. Nordic people generally are more preserved in letting people inside their inner circles. They are also more concerned about social interactions. It’s harder to walk in Oslo and say, “Hello. Good morning,” to any stranger than it is in anywhere else in the world. Those little things, especially for me, coming from a culture where you see your neighbor and say, “Hey, have a good day!” It was a different thing. It was really challenging. I might say, at times, depressing, I was not used to this. I was not used to hiding and not saying anything and pretending that I don’t see or things like that, in social context.

In a professional context, it even gets more challenging, especially after I graduated. Because at school, everybody spoke English and it was really an international community, and you could meet people. But then, I started looking for jobs. The first ad job I got was, “Maybe you should consider changing your name.” I’m like, “To do what?” Because you come out of your school and you think, “Oh, my skills matter.” But somebody is telling me, “No, your name matters.” Of course, this is on debating. Also, they are aware of the problem, and they are addressing it in different channels and media. Then I realized, “Oh, my God. I am an outsider.”

Joseph: Speaking of the professional world there then, what were you doing at the time and what sort of firm were you working for in the architectural sector there after you had graduated from the National Academy?

Dorna: [22:36] I studied interior architecture and furniture design in the academy. The plan was to do interior architecture, which is a less male-dominant industry. The thing is, during my studies, I was an artist assistant. I was helping an artist, Inghild Karlsen, to create sculptures and things like that. She was very artistic and, of course, I had the knowledge of construction, which together would be a really good teamwork.

When I graduated, I still was working with her. I also found another part-time job. I worked as a material scientist for a small product design company called HOOS. And so, my work was to research what new materials we can create to build product and furniture with, which was a very, very fun job.

But, unfortunately, I could not keep any of these two if I wanted to stay in Oslo, because I was, after all, an immigrant and coming from the Middle East, I needed a Visa. For that, there were rules and regulations. According to the rules, I needed a full-time job or a job that was about 80% within my field of studies. So, I ended up working as an interior architect in a firm that I one of the big firms in Oslo. I stayed there for a while. And then, after three years in Metropolis, I quit. I went to Radius, where I experienced a lot more fun working environment. And then, Radius ended up to Studio Lakayan, which is the small design studio I have today.

Joseph: So let’s talk about that transition. It sounds like you’re working in various architectural capacities in the interior architectural space.

Dorna: [24:38] Yeah.

Joseph: At Metropolis, and then eventually Radius Design. What were you thinking at the time? Were you thinking you’re going to just continue to work as an employee at these companies? Or at what point did you start to think, “Hey, I might want to do my own thing”?

Dorna: [24:51] Actually, I thought I will work at Radius for a long time. That was in the background when I started there. Like any other person, this corona event had a big impact on me as well. Especially, being in Oslo, in winter, darkness, fitting home, and working alone behind your computer with no social interaction, you start thinking and rethinking your life a lot.

Joseph: This was 2020 to 2021, is when you were there.

Dorna: [25:22] Yeah, exactly. I had a chat with my best friend and we are walking and she said, “But if you could do anything, like if you had the means to do anything you want to do, what would you do?” I said, “Oh, I wish then I would start my own studio.” And then, she’s like, “Why don’t you?” I’m like, “Well, I can,” and the whole thought began. So, it was a corona wish list, let’s say. Of course, I pursued it. I did some research. I saved money, all of the ABCs of “Let’s do this, and let’s be brave about it.” Of course, I can fail or not.

Joseph: What was appealing about the idea of starting your own studio compared to working for an established firm?

Dorna: [26:17] The biggest thing was the freedom of having a vision. Everybody who is in design or architecture is also aware of the fact that there are so many different signatures in design. When you work in big firms, you kind of lose that signature of your own. If you want to have that kind of vision and think in a very specific way or challenge some specific things, you need to either be very lucky or work with a very, very small team of people. That’s kind of what I decided to do, to change direction and work with the smaller team. It sounds like I’m one person, but in architecture, you are never one person. That’s the whole thing. You always have a team. But, of course, now I handpick that team.

Joseph: If you can go back in time for a moment, Dorna, when you think back to those early days of making that decision to officially make the transition from employee to entrepreneur, what excited you about it, and what scared you about branching off on your own?

Dorna: [27:35] There were, of course, two things. One that, “What if I can’t? What if I can’t deliver?” Because, okay, I knew I can do a project A to Z, and I knew my abilities, and everything, and the skills. But I also knew it takes a lot to deliver a good project. My colleagues at the firms I was working with were working day and nights to do that, and I was a part of that team doing it. Now, I have to be that team myself. That was the scary part.

Of course, like anybody else, financial worry. I won’t have a pay check, but I still have a rental. The whole “bills to pay.” What if I cannot earn money? What would happen? That is the day you learn that either you are brave to do it or you just have to leave it. I decided to just be brave and do it.

Exciting? Creating, I think. But that is always exciting for me. It doesn’t really matter what team I am in. I think that the moment you tell me that there’s a possibility that I can create, like I’m above the skies all over. Creating is what drives the whole cart.

Joseph: Before we talk about some of the things you’ve learned along the way of your career journey, you did make one more change, which is why you’re not in Oslo doing this interview and you’re actually in Amsterdam, what prompted you to make that move?

Dorna: [29:15] Yes, I moved to Amsterdam. I think this decision was really about reinventing myself. Not as an architect only, but as a person. I spent a decade in Oslo, and I met fantastic people, and I built a lot of things there. And then, I also had a lot of opportunities to learn, I would say. But when I was successful a year ago there and I was looking at my future, I thought to myself, “So, is this it? Am I now happy?” If this is like where I want to be, and who I want to be, and what I want to have? I felt not. I felt I’m missing something.

And then, I started actually digging in and seeing what I want to do then about it. What is it that I want? I mean, of course, one thing also was about the weather conditions in Oslo. That’s also another thing. And then, that moment was the moment that I was like, “Okay, where can I feed that part that is missing?” I needed a little bit of a bigger design theme, and a braver design scene as well in my head, more open. That kind of led into Amsterdam.

Joseph: I know that sometimes moving to a new country can be a challenge. Although, you’ve now tackled that a few times successfully. Another thing that can be a challenge is working on your own. I know that you work with a team. But starting your own business on your own, having worked in already established businesses, how has that transition been for you to go from employee to business owner?

Dorna: [30:56] Seriously, I’m not going to sugar-coat it. It’s not easy.

Joseph: What’s the toughest thing about it?

Dorna: [31:04] Some days, I feel like the toughest thing is waking up to nothing. There is no project. There is no potential project, or potential collaborator, or potential anything. But you still are so enthusiastic about doing it; that you wake up, and you hit something, and you find something, and you make a good day out of it. I think the challenge is to stay enthusiastic. That’s easier said than done, seriously.

I mean, now, we talk about all of these moves that I made and we call it successful, but It’s not also easy to do that. To come from one country to another and to start over, to have no friend, have no family, have no support, have nothing to lean on, to start over, go out and be brave enough to just say, “Hey, my name is Dorna. I want to be your friend,” or “I want to work with you,” or any other sentence that comes after. Some cultures are more open. It makes it easier. Some cultures are not. It’s really challenging to do it. I cannot say that I’m successful yet or not. I have a lot of successes. There is still a long, long, long way to go.

Joseph: It does take a lot of energy to start over and to rebuild, to re-acclimate yourself to a new culture, and to find new friends. How have you found the social scene there, and also what I’m going to describe as the professional social scene, where your ability to network with other people in the industry? How has that been for you there in Amsterdam? How would you describe that scene as someone from the outside?

Dorna: [32:52] It is a very open scene. It’s a very welcoming scene, I would say also. People look at my portfolio or my work or people talk to me, I get a lot of great comments about my work, which is very encouraging. But at the same time, of course, one goal is to be a part of a circle, one goal is to work in that circle. To work in that circle, I still haven’t figured out. It’s developing and it’s getting better and better. I’m meeting more people. But to just go in and say hello, I have had a lot of success. They are really open to hear your story and to introduce you to the next person who might be interested in your story and things like that. So that is developing, and I think it’s just like a maze or a puzzle. You have to just be patient and put more and more pieces to your future map.

It’s joyful, but it’s also, as you said, tiring. It takes a lot of energy to find where to be, where to meet these people, to send a lot of emails. Not all of them reply. Not everybody replies. To call people and say, “Hey, I have sent you an email by the way.” All of those things, it’s really like I say, more than a full-time job just to socialize.

Joseph: I know what you mean. I run my own business, Dorna, as you know.

Dorna: [34:25] Yeah.

Joseph: I think one of the most challenging things that I sometimes struggle with is a lack of a support system. I feel very alone at times. I’m wondering, do you feel that? Where do you turn for support when you’re feeling like your motivation isn’t where you want it to be?

Dorna: [34:45] I listen to your podcast. But, seriously, I think that’s what I can because I also feel alone. I feel down. There are days that I’m like, “Oh, my God, what did I do? Was it the right decision?” There are days that I doubt myself. I doubt myself as a designer. A lot of downs and downs. Because I always say,

we hear a lot of stories of success.

Joseph: Yeah.

Dorna: [35:14] In social media, and here and there and there. Nobody tells what was it like to get there. That’s the part that is missing. It’s very difficult. There are down days, 100%; lonely days, 100%. I haven’t found really a good solution. But I mean it when I say I listen to other people who are going through the same thing or have done the same thing. Just that makes me feel like I’m not alone. People have done it. Other people know.

Joseph: Absolutely. I think just feeling like it’s a normal thing to go through.

Dorna: [35:53] Yeah.

Joseph: Can be comforting and reassuring, in and of itself.

Dorna: [35:56] One hundred percent, 100%.

Joseph: The last thing I was hoping to talk with you about was just a couple of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. My first question relates to what you alluded to and have been talking about throughout this whole conversation, which is going from being an outsider to an insider, which is something that I think we all struggle with. Not only when you move to a different country, but also even when you just shift into a new industry or even our new employee at a new company. What have you learned about what it takes to penetrate into these inner circles?

Dorna: [36:33] I think the biggest thing that I have learned, which I’m still learning, let’s say it that way because it’s hard to remember it all the time, is that nothing is personal. It’s not about me that people don’t reply their emails, or it’s not about me that today, somebody doesn’t smile or all of those things, or somebody doesn’t look at your portfolio, or somebody doesn’t take your call, or all of those things that happen every day.

To stay positive is important, and I really know it’s easier said than done because I struggle some days with it myself to remember that I have to stay positive and it will get somewhere. But one has to just do it, to believe in yourself, as cliché as it is, to know that however it will end, you are investing in yourself. Even if not as a professional, as a person. This will definitely make something else out of you. This is your journey. If you trust in that, something good will come out of it. One way or another, it has happened to me. As I said, it is not all the [starry nights].

Joseph: Right. Last question, before we wrap up with what your focused on at this particular moment, and one of the projects that I find interesting. What have you learned about yourself along the way of this career journey of yours?

Dorna: [38:09] Number one, as I said, I think I learned I’m braver that I think. I generally think I learned to trust the fact that this too shall pass, to trust that life goes on. As long as I am enthusiastic about what I’m doing and I am excited about my future, opportunities will pop up. But I always thought I’m a very positive person. But being a positive person and having a drive to drive this positivity is two different things. I could never think that I’m this strong, that I can drive myself regardless of anything, and just believe in the fact that something good is out there. I think I learned that I can be way, way stronger and braver than I think. I’m of proud that. It’s like Dorna is a human being, it’s better than I thought.

Joseph: Well, that’s a good place to wrap this up. I would like to just finish up with something that you’re focused on right now. Can you tell me a little bit more about, first of all, the type of work that you’re doing there at Studio Lakayan? I’d be especially interested here about your YouTube series, “Lakayan Loves.”

Dorna: [39:34] Loves. At the Studio Lakayan, I am very much focused in space design. That means interior architecture, practically in my field of work. It’s space planning, making a good use of the space, functionality, and then to, of course, aesthetics, and moods, and fields, materials, finishes. Sometimes, furniture design, all of those, lighting design. So whatever matters within the space that you use, it can be an office, it can be your residence, it can be a hotel, it can be a shop. It doesn’t really matter. As long as it is a space that is tangible, that is what we do or what I do.

The Lakayan Loves, it’s something that I’m extremely excited about. Because, of course, I create a lot of things myself, but there’s a lot of people in this world, and there are a lot of fantastic designers and architects who are creating beautiful work. I love them, and I see them, and sometimes I just look at them, and I admire their work. I’m like, “See this beautiful thing they have created.” And then, I always felt like it’s such a pity that I can never share it with other people. I don’t like this trend on Instagram where people are just sharing other people’s work and just saying that “credit from this, credit from that.”

Joseph: Right, yeah.

Dorna: [41:03] I feel like there is more into it. There is this beautiful thing that we can look at and talk about. And then, I decided to create this short series where I can, very short, in less than a minute, show some of the works of my fellow colleagues and say what I admire about it. And then, help other people maybe see it as well. Maybe they already are seeing it. I’m not sure. But if not, maybe I give them that eye or those glasses.

Joseph: Very cool. I’m definitely going to check that out myself.

Dorna: [41:38] Yes, please do.

Joseph: If anybody who’s listening to this wants to learn more about you or the work that you do, where can they go?

Dorna: [41:47] Of course, lakayan.no or .com is available. You can check me out there. But I’m also on Instagram and on LinkedIn. Both are available on the website. So I would be happy to hear from people. If they are in Amsterdam, I would be happy to have coffee.

Joseph: All right. Well, we’ll definitely include all those handles and links in the show notes. Wanted to thank you so much, Dorna, for telling us more about your life as an architect and your experiences of living in so many places, and also your recent decision to run your own studio. Best of luck with all your work.

I would encourage people to check out your design work on Instagram, and even just your banner image on LinkedIn, which I told you when we first exchanged messages, isn’t too far off from being my dream home so I may take you up at some point on sketching out what my dream home concept could be.

Dorna: [42:39] It could be. Oh, my god! That’s going to be so much fun. I would love to do that.

Joseph: Me, too. One day.

Dorna: [42:45] Thank you for wishing me luck. I really need luck. I’m wishing luck for everyone who’s listening because I know they are also some people probably who are starting or shifting in their careers. So, good luck, everyone.

The start of a new job or chapter in your career can be a sensitive, delicate time. It’s a moment when you’re trying to convince yourself you’ve made the right move. It’s also a moment when you’re trying to convince others you can do something, which may be very different from what you were doing before.

Moving onto something new is harder than holding on to what you already have, even if what you have isn’t bringing you joy. In episode 102 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Sandeep Achanta, a former fitness professional in India turned service designer in the UK describes how you can discover what ignites you, bravely leap into a new professional role, and embrace your unique career journey.  I also share some thoughts on overcoming the mental hurdle of starting over during the Mental Fuel® segment.

💭 Key Career Change Insights

1. While you may be in a comfortable job with relative stability, you might still feel like something is off, like you could be doing more. When this happens, you have to ask yourself when you will cross a tipping point and make the leap to do something else.
2. The decision to change careers is separate from the transition process. The actual transition could take months or years to execute, which is just part of making a major pivot.
3. If you’re dissatisfied with your current role, you have broadly two options. You can either find a way to tolerate and manage your situation, or you can proactively attempt to do something else.
4. Humility is a critical component of making any career change. You may have to start over a bit, drop down to a lower rung on a corporate ladder, or report to someone who may be younger than you.
5. During a career change, we tend to discount or dismiss away our previous experiences that don’t directly relate to a new role. Those experiences are exactly what enables you to make your unique contribution.

📚 Resources Mentioned

• Sandeep mentioned he began his exploration of service design with the Interaction Design Foundation.

• Learn more about CrossFit at the official CrossFit website.

💪🏼 Listener Challenge

During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked overcoming the emotional hurdle of starting over. My challenge to you is to identify one small, imperfect step you could take toward doing something that could allow you to feel more energized. Ideas include:

• Giving yourself a quiet moment to just reflect on how you’ve been emotionally feeling about your career
• Taking a small leap of faith.
• Taking stock of which skills or experiences you want to carry forward so you can more fully buy into making that leap.

Remember, you don’t have to have it all mapped out right now. You just have to start somewhere.

📖 Episode Chapters

00:00:00 Overview
00:01:07 Introduction
00:03:17 Chat with Sandeep Achanta
00:45:54 Mental Fuel
00:52:04 Listener Challenge
00:52:48 Listener Thoughts
00:54:59 Wrap Up

👤 About Sandeep Achanta

Sandeep Achanta is currently a Service Designer working at the Bank of England. After spending over a decade in the fitness industry in India across various roles such as trainer, business owner, and product lead, he decided to pursue a Master’s program in Service Design at Loughborough University London. During his time at university, he worked on projects with organisations such as Mind, the mental health charity, and the Hackney Council public health team. Sandeep is passionate about designing great services that are sustainable and improve health and well-being. In his spare time, he loves playing tabletop games and reading fantasy fiction.

👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

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   Connect with Joseph

💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

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🎵 Interview Segment Music Credits

• Kevin Shrout – d’entreprise en feu
• Hazy – Letting Go
• Lotus – The Warm and Absolute
• Lama House – Lupina’s Dream
• Podington Bear – Lucky Stars
• Diet 75 – 66 Halos
• Joystock – Write Your Story

📄 Interview Transcript

Joseph: Okay, Sandeep. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me here on the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show.

Sandeep: [03:25] Thank you so much for having me on. Like I said, I’ve been a long-time fan and listener of the podcast, so it really is a pleasure and an honor to be on.

Joseph: Let’s start by talking about what has been keeping you busy in your career and your life at this moment. What are you focused on right now?

Sandeep: [03:45] I’ve just about landed on the other side of my career change journey. I’ve just started working as a service designer at the Bank of England. And so, what I’m really focused on is getting a sense of what it’s like to work in this field, and getting a sense of how to use a new toolkit that’s at my fingers, so to speak.

Joseph: For those people, like me, who are not exactly familiar with what a service designer does, I think it’s probably a less common job title. What exactly do you do for the Bank of England?

Sandeep: [04:20] A service designer helps manage the people, systems, processes, and interactions in the end-to-end delivery of a service. Basically, think of any common service that we interact with on a day-to-day basis, like a coffee shop. That’s the easiest example because you can sort of break it down from the beans to the cup of coffee in your hand and essentially, you’re thinking about all the different steps that it goes through, all the people that enable those steps, and then how all of those things fit together.

A service designer basically looks at that and says, “Here are some things that we can do better to improve the experience, to be more efficient at it,” or might even potentially create a completely new service getting coffee delivered to your doorstep, for example, is a service innovation, so to speak.

Joseph: How long have you been in this line of work?

Sandeep: [05:12] Three months.

Joseph: Three months, okay. This is really cool because we’re catching you right at the very beginning, which is nice because I can kind of hear some of your thoughts about the transition. I will come back to your time at the Bank of England, which I know is quite a new role for you. But before we do that, let’s go back in time. I know you haven’t always been a service designer for the Bank of England. Where are you from originally, and where did you grow up as a kid?

Sandeep: [05:36] I moved around a lot when I was younger, but I primarily grew up in Chennai in South India. It was a fairly normal Indian upbringing. I grew up in school, expecting to become a doctor, engineer. I guess it was the only two options. There were things like lawyers and everything else further along the line, but those were the only two options. I always had a keen interest in art, and drawing, and sketching. I ended up sort of going to a career in graphic design early on.

Joseph: What do you remember about life there as a child in Chennai? I guess I’m interested in both just what was on your mind at the time, if you can remember that far back, and also the types of things that you were interested in. I know you just alluded to that just now.

Sandeep: [06:24] I think what I remember most about my time in Chennai is, I’ve moved around a lot when I was a kid. I remember when I was really young that my brother and I responded to the moving around in very different ways. My brother was very extroverted and he made friends very quickly. I was a little bit more introverted. It took me a little bit longer to make friends and to get used to it. Every time we moved, it was a little disrupted. But something that I found was when I was getting a little older that really helped me make friends was that I was always interested in sort of making up stories and in collaborating, for lack of a better word, on creating stories. I used to play a crude version of Dungeons and Dragons back in India. We used to play a lot of tabletop games or board games, and there would be a lot of made-up games that we’d essentially come up with. I guess, in a strange way, it does connect to some of the things I’m doing now.

Joseph: Let’s go through the journey here. You mentioned you worked in graphic design, initially. And then, pretty quickly, shifted to work in the fitness industry. Do I have that right? How did that all start for you?

Sandeep: [07:37] I started work in the graphic design industry. Essentially, I was working as a graphic designer for a few different companies. There was a publishing house, and there was travels and tours company. Essentially, when I joined as a designer, what I ended up doing for them was logistics. It was a very small company, a start-up. And so, everyone wore multiple hats. I found that I automatically sort of gravitated towards this other skill set that I had of organizing things and being able to effectively sort of keep track of tasks and delegate things.

I found myself not enjoying the work as much because the growth was slow, as anyone in graphic design or advertising will tell you, the first eight to 10 years is essentially a grind. Unless you deeply enjoy the work, it can be difficult to have staying power. I found that it wasn’t really going anywhere. I wasn’t really learning a whole lot. I was thinking about what to do next. Around that time, I ended up joining a CrossFit-like gym that was back home in India. I really enjoyed it. I had such a great time. I liked it so much in fact that I asked him, “Hey, can I intern here?”

Joseph: You were doing CrossFit yourself. You were the one doing the exercise.

Sandeep: [08:56] Yeah.

Joseph: Okay.

Sandeep: [08:57] It was a different lifetime. Essentially, what I would do is — and it was amazing because I can’t imagine the amount of energy that I had in my early 20s.

Joseph: Yeah.

Sandeep: [09:06] Because I would essentially wake up at 4:00, intern there from 5 o’clock to 8 o’clock in the morning, shower, go to my day job, finish up at 5:00 in the evening, go back home, pass out, and repeat this for the rest of the week. After about six months of doing that, they said, “You sure are hanging out here a whole lot and you want a job.” It was a difficult transition because I had to get qualified, get my certifications under my belt.

My parents weren’t particularly happy that all of the education that they invested in was amounting to their son becoming, in their words, a gym trainer, but I was really, really passionate about it and I had a knack for it as well. The few times that I did, for example, jump in and run classes, I’ve always got very positive feedback. And so, about six months later, I ended up jumping on both legs and started working as a trainer in the fitness industry.

Joseph: That’s interesting because this is back in — do I have this right? 2011-ish, around that time. This is way before CrossFit became a big thing, which is I think it has become way more popular in recent years. You’re actually teaching these classes and you are a trainer at the gym. How did you enjoy that? What was that like for you?

Sandeep: [10:17] I really, really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed working with people, which is something that hit me. The job made me realize I really enjoyed working closely with people, helping them improve the quality of their lives, having conversations about their well-being. The most important part of it for me was really that, oftentimes, this was the first part of people’s days. It was at 5 a.m., 6 a.m., or 7 a.m. I really enjoyed that if I did everything right as a service, and I was able to give someone an excellent start to their day, my assumption was that the rest of their day went well. Usually, that was the feedback that we got as well. People were like, “Oh, I feel so great. I’m so happy when I come in and do my workout. Can I just do this all the time?” I really enjoyed having that experience. And so, I really enjoyed it.

The other side of it that I really found myself enjoying as well was that I found myself very, very passionate to learn about anatomy, physiology, nutrition, and the whole nuts and bolts of it. I remember really getting very, very nerdy into it, and I remember getting about five or six certifications in the span of a couple of years, which was fairly rapid, and some of them were not easy to complete.

Joseph: That’s really interesting. I’m just curious, were you always somebody who had been interested in fitness yourself? Had you been a pretty healthy guy growing up, or were you someone who was exercising a lot?

Sandeep: [11:47] Funnily enough, not at all. Actually, I’ve never played sports in my life. I’ve never engaged in formal sports. But that said, and here’s something that I found out only much later, my mom tells me that when I was much. much younger, I really enjoyed climbing. I really enjoyed randomly running around the neighborhood and being physically active. I just didn’t like sports. I just didn’t like organized sports at all. And so, when they did put me in organized sports, I didn’t respond well.

But before that, I always did enjoy it. Even after that, yes. Before I got into the fitness industry as well, I used to like trying random physical endeavors; like rock climbing or parkour. I could never stick to anything for very long, but I did enjoy experimenting for sure.

Joseph: You would start off as a trainer. You were doing that for a while. And then, eventually, you switched over and shifted more toward doing work on the business side of the training and fitness industry. Tell me about that transition.

Sandeep: [12:53] It started with the organization that I was working for. And so, the first step, as with any early career, is I essentially went from being a trainer to managing other trainers. Again, that was also a process that I really enjoyed because as I had mentioned earlier, I really enjoyed being organized. And so, as you can imagine, a lot of the trainers that we were getting were quite young. They were between 18 and 21, 22, and oftentimes, this was their first job. I really enjoyed the process of mentorship; both in terms of bringing them onboard into what being a fitness professional was like.

But then, also actually onboarding them onto being a working professional; showing up on time, being professional with the clients, knowing what to say and what not to say, which is a bigger deal than you think it is, especially in an exercise environment. I really enjoyed that process. And then, from that stage, essentially, I went to managing a center. This is when I got involved in sales. This is when I got involved in marketing. This is when I got involved in ensuring that the finances of the center made sense. If I had stayed there longer, I think I would have gotten involved in the strategic side of things as well.

Joseph: Were you thinking at the time that this was what you’re going to do long-term? Were you enjoying that? Did you see yourself in that industry for a while?

Sandeep: [14:18] At that point, I honestly thought I would be doing it forever. How things changed.

Joseph: What changed for you? When did you start thinking that you might want to shift and do something else?

Sandeep: [14:28] I think towards the end of it, unfortunately, I found myself limited in terms of the impact that I could have. I remember, I kept coming back to the idea of impact and I had to really unpack it for myself and understand what I meant by that. I realized that it was important to me that services or products that I created were scalable, replicable, and widely applicable. I didn’t have the knowledge to do that.

I had become such a specialist that, essentially, from that organization, I moved to another organization where I was helping create fitness products that were being delivered to a much bigger audience. We were then creating services for 100,000 to 150,000 customer base. I still found that the ways that I was contributing to that were fairly limited. I was writing workouts, creating operating procedures for the trainers, or ideating with product developers on what might be ways to create new interesting workouts.

I couldn’t help but shake the feeling that I could do more. I just couldn’t do it right now. Once I realized that it was almost as though the seeds of dissatisfaction were sown, and over the next couple of years, it just started becoming more and more obvious to me that I needed to move.

Joseph: Yeah, this is something I think that comes up with a lot of people who both come on to this show and also listeners of this show, as you are in a fairly comfortable environment, fairly comfortable job. You have a decent amount of financial and personal “success,” and yet, you just feel like something’s a little bit off. I’m just wondering, what was the tipping point for you when this went from dissatisfaction to complete dismay where you knew that something had to change for you?

Sandeep: [16:22] It actually went through several steps. I think as much as I would like to sit here and say that there was a flash of inspiration and I knew what I had to do, it actually took, I’d say, almost three years and went through several iterations. When I was working with this organization, as I thought through it a little bit, and I did work with a therapist on essentially mental health issues that I was having, because I was burnt out by the work that I was doing, I realized that the idea of autonomy and agency was quite important to me. With large organizations, as you can imagine, that’s not something that’s easily available to everyone. I think there’s autonomy and agency right at the top. And then, unless you’re at sea level, and maybe not even there, there isn’t necessarily a lot of autonomy.

And so, I realized that that was important to me. That was a core value. And so, I did what was a potentially very risky move and quit my job in the midst of the pandemic to try and create my own online fitness service with the intent that this would be much more holistic. It wouldn’t be focused on losing weight or getting six-pack abs, but it would be much more living a better quality of life, integrating fitness practices, and good nutrition practices into your core values, and so on. I did that for a little while and it was successful. But then, what started happening was I realized two things. One, that I’m not a very good entrepreneur. I wasn’t very good at drawing boundaries for myself when I was working as an entrepreneur. That made it very difficult for me to have work-life balance. It was around this time that I got engaged.

After enough weekends of listening to me whine about this, my fiancé, now wife, said I either have to do something about this or say you’re going to do it, continue doing it, and then deal with it. But the other side of it was also that I started doing a lot of the exercises that I had mentioned when we initially spoke that I’d come across on your YouTube channel, as well as some of the other career change exercises that I had come across. I started to be able to articulate specifically what the gap was. I started to be able to articulate why I was feeling unhappy and where I was feeling unhappy. And so, I think that realization combined with the fact that I was starting to be a very grumpy person to be around made me realize that either I had to have the courage to go ahead and change, or figure out ways of continuing to make this work.

Joseph: I want to shift gears here a little bit. Sandeep, you even talk about that transition. You’ve now realized you’ve got to do something about this situation and something needs to change. How did you then decide what to do next? It sounds like you took some time to clear your head and watch some of those videos, do some of the exercises. How did you figure out where to go from there?

Sandeep: [19:38] It was hard for sure. I think especially because there was a lot of negative self-talk in terms of I had put myself into a certain description, so to speak. I was Sandeep, the fitness subject matter expert, and didn’t have any other skills. I think it took me some time to come to grips with the idea of things like transferable skills, come to grips with the idea of reflecting on what prior interests might have been, and also taking a slightly more exploratory approach to the potential next steps.

That kind of made me realize that, okay, I did have some transferable skills. Sure, some of there may not be skills that I may put on a resume. It would be things like people’s skills or communication because I find that often they’re overused and a little vague. But I found that, okay, I do have these skills. I do believe that I can work with people. I do believe that I’m fairly organized and can manage projects. I do believe that I’m fairly effective at communicating across a wide range of stakeholders, and also collaborating with a wide range of stakeholders because those were experiences that I had. I think that was one, realizing that, “Okay, my next step can be built off of these transferable skills.”

And then, the next thing that I started looking at was, “Okay, all right, what am I interested in right now?” That took me a while to sort of encapsulate as well. I was initially interested in behavioral psychology because I still wanted to explore well-being. And so, that was something that I did consider. When I came across service design and design was when I realized that, actually, what I was looking for in terms of my desire to create scalable, and replicable services and products is an understanding of how products are created at scale and understanding of how services are created at scale, and what goes into that. That’s when I started sort of poking around product design, service design. When I started reading more about service design, I did a course on service design online by the Interaction Design Foundation. As I was doing it, for the first time in a few years, I lit up.

Joseph: A-ha.

Sandeep: [22:01] I felt amazed at how alive I felt. I was amazed at how natural the process of service design felt. It didn’t feel like a completely new discipline. It felt like something that I had done in some form of fashion before. Now, I just had a new toolkit to do it with. Which is when I took a bit of a risk, and I said, “Okay, I’d like to go ahead and study this,” and it worked out very, very well.

Joseph: Sometimes, what happens is we get so used to the job that we’re in and we get so accustomed to the routine of it all that we kind of forget how we used to feel or how we could feel. We feel like the way that we are experiencing each day is just par for the course as good as it gets. It’s not until you actually do something that you really enjoy that you realize, while this feels like me, this feels oddly familiar. As you put it, you really light up.

You mentioned that you decided to go back and study design, and you would eventually go back to university full-time. This was after being in the professional world for, I think it was it 12 years that you’d been working at this point. How did you decide where to go study this, and how did you navigate what can be kind of a jarring transition going from working full time to studying full time?

Sandeep: [23:19] It was pretty nerve-wracking, to be honest, at first. I think, initially, I wasn’t very serious about it for exactly the same reasons that you mentioned, which is I thought I was too old. I thought it was too much of a financial commitment. It was too much of a time commitment to go back to university at this age.

Joseph: How old were you at that time?

Sandeep: [23:40] I just turned 31.

Joseph: Uh-huh, okay.

Sandeep: [23:42] It definitely felt significant. But what happened was, funny enough, in the midst of the pandemic, I met and started dating my now wife. And so, she was about to start a PhD in the UK. She was living in Chennai at that point in time. We decided to get married. She was like, “Well, I’m going next year. I’m not going to change those plans because we’re getting married.” I was like, “Yes, of course.” There was a decision to be made. Essentially, I could go to the UK with her, look at continuing my fitness career here, and then looking at studying service design on the side, which is something that I did briefly consider. I did consider looking at open university, or other part-time courses, or perhaps pivoting to service design within the fitness industry.

I think the more that I thought about it, it came back to that feeling of feeling alive. I realized there was a potential decision where I could go back to university and it felt risky but, at the same time, it was very exciting. The prospect of having a year to really risk it all in some ways and see whether I could make it work gave me a sense of butterflies in my stomach but was also very, very exciting.

I think that was when I felt as though I had to take a leap of faith. Either I could iteratively try things and hopefully things worked out, or I could take a leap of faith and then see where things went. It made me realize that perhaps I am the kind of person who actually likes taking a leap of faith if there is enough of a reward there. And so, I think that was part of the decision that made me decide to go back to university. We got married. I think within weeks of us getting married, I started my master’s program. I moved halfway across the world to do that. Yeah, it was incredibly challenging, but it was a fantastic experience.

Joseph: You were at Loughborough. Was this your first time in the UK, this move with her?

Sandeep: [25:48] Yes. I’d visited for very, very short trips before that, but this was the first time that I’d moved.

Joseph: What do you remember about the early days of landing in the UK having come all the way here from Chennai?

Sandeep: [26:00] Funnily enough, Joseph, the months leading up to the move were absolutely nerve-wracking. Because I was thinking about finding a house, trying to figure out where everything was on Google Maps, trying to figure out how I could make sure that I had food in my kitchen. Because in India, as you can imagine,

labor is quite cheap. I don’t remember the last time that I had to cook for myself.

Joseph: Oh, right. Okay.

Sandeep: [26:25] When I moved here, it was a bit of a shock, for sure. But I think I surprised myself with how quickly I was able to adapt. Not so much in terms of the cooking that I managed that I had done before. But in terms of the culture is very different. The educational culture is very, very different. Whereas in India, it’s much more top-down. It’s much more performance-driven, grades-driven. Here, it was much more exploratory. There was a lot more open-ended teaching. I found that all of that worked very, very well for me. I really enjoyed the university experience here. I love being in London. It was fairly incredible. I was living in East London, which I know is frowned upon, but I really enjoyed living there, to be honest. It was a very colorful, diverse population, so I had a great time.

Joseph: I guess when you think about being back in school, it sounds like you were really enjoying it. What was the hardest part about being back in school after all these years of having not sat in a classroom? I know, you did some certification on the side. You did some online learning. But being in the classroom is very different. What was challenging about that?

Sandeep: [27:36] There were two things that I found the most challenging. One was, I’d forgotten what it was like to learn from a textbook, if that makes sense.

Joseph: Yeah, it does.

Sandeep: [27:49] I had been learning constantly and I’d been growing constantly, but it was always learning on the job. I think it had been several years since I had learned from a textbook. I found that a little bit challenging, and it took some time to get used to. But I think once I did, I found it very, very rewarding. To this day, it’s something that I find that I still enjoy, and I find that it’s something that I’m able to maintain as a passion.

The other thing that I found really challenging was that I was much older than all of the other students. There was an average of an eight to 10-year-old age gap between me and the rest of the students because I was 33 at this point, and everyone else was between 21 and 24. There was a significant age gap. I found that, initially, it felt like it came with several disadvantages. I generally found that I didn’t have the — I don’t want to say energy in terms of physical energy, I still felt mostly physically energetic, but I didn’t have the mental energy to go chase 10 different directions at once, if that makes sense. I found that my curiosity was much more focused than spread out, which, again, was both a boon and a bane. I found that it took me a moment to realize that as a slightly older student with a little bit more work experience, I had to navigate this process a little bit differently for myself. It took me a few months to do that.

I think when I was able to figure out how to make it work for me, I think that’s when I really started to make the most of it. I can give you some examples of this. I realized that, for example, most of the PhD students were closer to my age, or the professors weren’t that much older than me and were willing to have a conversation with me because I had some amount of experience. And so, I was able to converse with them and engage with them outside of the classroom environment. That was very, very useful and that’s where I really learned the most. While the classroom experience itself of the university was great, I really, really, really enjoyed understanding who these people were, what led them to design, how they are applying it in their careers today, and how they saw the role of design in the world even, so to speak. I know that sounds sort of vague and new age-y, but I genuinely mean it helped me understand the context for what I could potentially do with this new skill once I graduated.

Joseph: Before we switch gears and talk about your time now as a service designer, because I am very interested to hear about how that’s been going for you, we should probably talk about how you and I first crossed paths. As I understand it, I guess a couple weeks after your arrival, came to one of my career seminars, which I assume was online at the time. In December of 2023, that’s when you actually wrote me a very kind email, which is how we first connected. It wasn’t until then that I actually realized that you had been on this career change journey.

Before we talk about your time as a service designer, can you just tell me about how it felt when you graduated from your program with distinction, by the way? What was that moment like for you?

Sandeep: [30:58] Graduating was a very emotional moment for several reasons. It speaks to the amount of self-doubt that I had before engaging on the whole process. Not just of university, but of the career change itself. When I initially started having feelings of doubt in the fitness industry, the thought that really stopped me is, “But you’ve spent so much time and effort in this industry, and you haven’t taken the time to acquire any other skills. You haven’t worked in the corporate world. You haven’t acquired the job titles that people usually do by this age. This is the path that you’re locked in.” I could see that path. I could see some of my colleagues would pass me. I had told myself that that was all I was going to be able to do, and there was no way for me to break out of that.

Graduating with a distinction, graduating with a job, graduating with fantastic feedback from my research advisor, as well as with the organization that I worked with during my dissertation, all of that was very emotional for me because it was an indicator that my leap of faith had paid off. Yes, the certification meant a lot, but the culmination of everything that had started several years ago was very, very emotional for me.

Joseph: Congratulations, first of all, for graduating with distinction, just a few months ago. I am very interested to hear how things are going for you. I know you’re only a few months into it. That can be a very broad question to just ask somebody, how are things going? I’m going to try to guide this a little bit based on what you and I discussed before we started this recording. One of the things that I remember you told me when we first connected was that you’re so focused on landing on your feet that you didn’t really think about what would happen once you landed on the other side. Could you just explain to me what you mean by that?

Sandeep: [34:59] I think when I was looking up service design and what a service designer does, what a service design role involves, I don’t think I realized that I would be starting at the bottom in many ways. I don’t think that I really considered what that would mean, what would a junior service designer role look like. I didn’t consider what the emotional brunt of that would feel like after having had expertise before, after having been in a field where I had competence, where I was confident because of that competence, where I had agency because of that competence.

And so, on the other side, not only am I using a new skill set that I am not very familiar with, but I’m also in an industry that I have absolutely zero experience with. There is an element of figuring out a new skill set within a new domain. What I meant by, I didn’t consider what that would feel like is that, tactically, it’s hard.

Yes, there are a lot of things that need to be done. There’s a lot of upskilling that needs to be done outside of work. But emotionally, it’s very hard as well. It really is an exercise in humility because you have to be okay with the fact that there are people younger than you who have not done a career change, who are probably in more senior positions, who probably have more experience, who are more competent and more confident in their skills.

I think there’s also you might be reporting to people who possibly have less overall career experience than you, or who maybe don’t have as much expertise as you did in your previous role, right? I spent 12 years in the fitness industry, which might be, say, less than somebody spent in product design or career design. But I would be reporting to them for a good reason because they have much more competence at this thing. I think all of this really is an exercise in humility. But I think along with that, it comes back to what you’d said about transferable skills, which is having a sense of confidence in skills that I previously acquired in figuring out how they translate in this new environment is not a process that I can take for granted. It’s a process that I have to consciously seek out and enable.

Joseph: Has there been anything in particular that you have learned about yourself during this process of going from being an experienced professional to what can feel like you’re going to the bottom rung of a totem pole, I guess, to put it bluntly? What have you learned about yourself as you’ve been going through this exercise and humility as you put it?

Sandeep: [35:54] As much as it sounds like I am in a sense whining about starting at the bottom, I’m actually not. I will say that I do enjoy it in some ways. Although, I did feel a lot of discomfort at the idea of starting again and not having competence. But I think what it made me realize is what I am actually good at and what I actually do enjoy. I’ve realized, for example, that the things that, in a situation like this in an uncomfortable situation, I enjoy doing is figuring out a way to provide value in the ways that I can.

For my team, for example, I’ve started taking up the tasks that nobody else wants to do, that are not fun to do, that might be admin work, or that might be collaborating with people and setting up meetings and doing the grunt work. I find that finding ways for me to add value is something that I am happy to be open-minded and curious about and find my own way through.

The other thing is that I do tend to undervalue some of the transferable skills that I have. Recently, I had a review with my line manager as it’s been about three months. Some of the feedback that she had for me was that I undersell a lot of the skills that I’ve acquired from previous experience. And so, something that she was highlighting was that by discounting that, I don’t allow myself to contribute in ways that I already can, using expertise that I already have.

It got me thinking about how going through something like this, I think it’s easy to discount all the previous knowledge that you have or all the previous abilities that you have. I think it’s very important to understand the value of it when you’re going through this process so that not only does it give you a sense of confidence when you’re starting off at the bottom of the totem pole, but it also allows you to figure out a way forward that is uniquely yours.

What I mean by that is, I think if I was to throw all of that out the window and start off from scratch and say, “I’m going to try and be the best service designer that I can,” that’s probably going to take me another 10 years to do that. However, if I say, “I’m going to be the best combination of whatever skills that I already have, and then combine them with the new skill set that I have,” it might pay an opportunity for me to contribute in a unique way that perhaps if I was just trying to be the best service designer that I can, I wouldn’t be able to.

Joseph: That makes a lot of sense. I guess we can have a tendency of almost dismissing away our past experiences, which on the surface might seem very irrelevant to our current role, but actually do provide us with some unique perspective and allow us to add value in a unique way that we otherwise wouldn’t be able to.

I suppose the last thing I was hoping we could talk about before we wrap up, if we continue to focus on your new role and how different it has been for you and the career change journey you’ve been on, has there been anything particularly surprising about your transition going from the fitness industry into becoming a service designer with the Bank of England?

Sandeep: [39:07] I think actually the most surprising things have not necessarily been with regards to the profession itself, but with regards to working in a different country because the culture is completely different in the UK than back home in India. I’m able to navigate the domain differences and the skill differences. Because often, it’s about learning a new skill set or learning information that you didn’t have before, and then understanding it and how to work within it.

Culture differences between back home and here is something that I need a lot of help with often. Little things like ask my boss, “Hey, can I step out for lunch and I’ll be back in an hour and a half?” She’s like, “Yeah, you’re not chained to your desk. It’s fine. You can do that.” Or knowing that even though there is, say, hierarchy within the organization, that is completely fine for me to speak to someone who is a couple of levels up and ask them what might potentially be a stupid question. These are things that are frowned upon or I’ve not always had the opportunity to do before. There are, I would say, the most surprising thing has been learning about the cultural differences between different parts of the world. It’s something that I was sort of aware of, but experiencing it first-hand is completely different.

Joseph: I’ve never been to India myself. I do work with people in India quite regularly, and there are definitely some differences I do notice in the working style. Also, just like life in general, I suppose, when you move from one country to another. I’ve been here for 14 years now, Sandeep, and I still, like on a daily basis, I still struggle with aspects of British culture, even after all this time. And so, I think you’re right in pointing out that some of these more tactical things like navigating a new industry or function or role can actually be learned,

but those cultural nuances and differences can be much harder to navigate.

A couple more questions for you before we wrap up. If you had to give advice to your younger self as it relates to changing careers, what might that be?

Sandeep: [41:12] To really be more confident in myself and my abilities. This actually goes back to one of your videos, and also the question that I asked you back in 2022 when you presented at my university, which is, “If you have any kind of work experience at all, whether it’s a couple of years, whether it’s several years, I think really have confidence in what you can do, and especially what you can do well.” Because I think knowing what you’re good at, what you like doing, and what you want to continue to do, will allow you to cleave clearly what you don’t want to do or what you’re not good at, and will also allow you to in the future stack skills on top of that and say, “This is actually who I am. I am not just Sandeep, who likes to organize, work with people, collaborate, teach; but I’m Sandeep who likes to do all of this in the context of developing services.” It’s kind of like you’re building on top of who you are, rather than starting from scratch each time. I think the reason why I would give myself that advice is because I personally needed a lot more confidence when I was starting off.

Joseph: When you look back on this career pivot, what’s something you wished you had known that you now know since you are now on the other side of it? Actually, I guess you’re still going through it.

Sandeep: [42:39] It’s that as long as I’m following my interests, it’s enjoyable. I think the reason why I’d say I wish I had known that is because I was trying to make sense of everything from such a rational point of view, where I was trying to make sense of all the dots and made sure that when they all connected, there was a beautiful picture at the end of it. But it’s not always that clear, is it? But all the time, it’s worked out. Whether it’s university, whether it was my dissertation, whether it was my job, whether it was the internships that I did, any time I was doing something that I was interested in, and I followed that interest, it always paid off.

Yeah, I wish I had known that and I’m still working on that. Because I think it’s very easy to drift back into the mode of, “Okay, this is the right decision to make.” I wish I had known that.

Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Sandeep, for going such a deep dive into all of your reflections that you’ve had over the years, and telling us about your life, both back in India and how you pivoted to restart your career here in the UK. I appreciate you reaching out back in December and dropped me a really kind email. I just wanted to wish you the best of luck with your new role there at the Bank of England, and your life as a service designer right now. I hope it continues to go well for you.

Sandeep: [44:06] Thank you so much. Like I mentioned in the email, I cannot understate the impact that you’ve had in my life. You were such an incredibly important part at the beginning of this journey. I’m sure you’ve forgotten about those YouTube videos that you probably made way back when, but I’m sure there’s people like me who are still watching them and are able to actually take actionable lessons and steps away from that and do something with it. Thank you so much for the work that you do, Joseph.

Joseph: Of course.

Sandeep: [44:34] It really meant so much. I’m continuing to listen to the podcast, and I wish you all the best with everything.

Joseph: Thank you so much. It’s been really meaningful to connect with you, and it’s not every day that I hear from people who watch my videos. It has been a while since I’ve done those years. I should probably get back to that at some point here, but I appreciate you saying that. It really does mean a lot to me, and it’s just been a real privilege to have you on the show. Thanks for coming on.

Sandeep: [44:57] Thank you for the kind words.

Moving abroad for a job can be tough emotionally and practically. Leaving familiar surroundings and loved ones can lead to homesickness and isolation. Adapting to a new work environment, language, and way of life adds to the pressure. However, it can also be a broadening and enriching experience that expands your world in unexpected ways.

Stefania Tosini, a press officer turned talent acquisition specialist is going to talk about what she wrestled with when making her decision to move from Italy to Germany during the height of the Covid-19 pandemic. In episode 93 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, I also share some thoughts on the struggles I had when I moved from the US to the UK  during the Mental Fuel® segment.

Key Career Takeaways

1. Leaving one’s family behind to pursue a career can be a difficult decision to make. It can bring up a variety of emotions, ranging from fear and anxiety about leaving a loving environment to excitement for new opportunities and experiences to come.
2. Do not be afraid to ask for help. Everyone needs support from time to time.
3. Expectations can be a tricky thing, especially when it comes to your career decisions. Don’t assume that everyone will react to your choices in the way you hope.

Listener Challenge

During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about moving locations for your career. My challenge to you is to look forward instead of backward. To trust that you made the best decision you possibly could to serve what you felt was most important to you.

Focus on doing everything you can to make the most of your current circumstances rather than dwelling TOO much on what you left behind. Start small and decide on one action you can take right now to more fully embrace your chosen path.

About Stefania Tosini, Talent Acquisition Partner at Zalando

Stefania Tosini is a polyglot with a background in international affairs and economics who recently made a big move of her own from Italy to Germany. With over 8 years of experience across multiple industries including roles in education as an English Teacher for the Japanese School of Milan, luxury fashion as a press officer for companies like Dolce & Gabbana, and now in online retail as a talent acquisition partner for Zalando, she finds her professional motivation in helping people find fulfillment and belonging in their careers.

Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

• Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers.
• Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions.
• Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.
   Connect with Joseph

Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
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You can also leave a comment below. Thanks!

Thanks to Vista Social for Supporting Career Relaunch

Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimize, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. Try Vista Social out for free right now at careerrelaunch.net/vista.

Interview Segment Music Credits

• Podington Bear – Floating
• Podington Bear – Program Reverie
• Podington Bear – Pulsars
• Podington Bear – Golden Hour
• REW – Hylidae
• Podington Bear – Holding Hands
• Podington Bear – Stuck Dream
• Podington Bear – Memory Wind

Episode Interview Transcript

Joseph: Hello, Stefania. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Thanks for coming today.

Stefania: [03:34] Hi. Thank you so much for the invite.

Joseph: Why don’t we get started by getting a snapshot of what is keeping you busy right now in both your career and life? Can you give me a glimpse into what you’ve been focused on recently?

Stefania: [03:01] First of all, Joseph, thank you for having me as your guest. In my personal life, I’d say that I’m focusing on my family and friends at the moment, especially after moving abroad to Germany. I really realized that family to me is the most important source of energy for myself. To give you some context, I’m from Italy and I think it’s absolutely true what people say about Italians. I match all the stereotypes here. I speak with my hands, and I love good food, and I’m a family person. Definitely, family is one of my main focus points.

Joseph: What about your career? What have you been focused on at work recently?

Stefania: [04:40] From a professional point of view, I switched careers and industries a couple of times already. Now, I’m focusing on growing my expertise, in recruiting. I’m working in talented acquisition. Therefore, it’s like really learning all the time and bringing your niche expertise to certain families and sectors. It’s really about growing and keeping on learning.

Joseph: Now, you are currently at a company called Zalando. For those people who are not familiar with Zalando, can you just give a very quick snapshot of exactly what Zalando is and what you guys do?

Stefania: [05:23] Zalando is awesome. It’s my employer and it’s an eCommerce platform, basically serving countries in Europe. We sell sportswear, beauty products, fashion products. To me, it’s a very highly advanced tech company. The sector is retail, fashion, and tech at the moment. I am a talent acquisition partner working in recruiting and I just love my job. I love my job because I’m working with people and for people. I do believe that the most important asset of a company is human capital.

Joseph: Before we go back in time, Stefania, I also know you’re a bit of a polyglot. Can you remind me which languages you speak and how you ended up picking up those languages?

Stefania: [06:17] Yes, I’m a polyglot. I love studying languages. I’m Italian. Of course, I’m a native speaker in Italian. I speak pretty well Spanish and Russian as well. I’m currently studying German and Japanese, too. Japanese has a longer story behind this. I think my passion for languages started when I was young. I wanted to connect with people faster.

I remember that once I was traveling with my grandpas to the UK, and I was really, really young. I think I was 6 or 7 years old. I really wanted to connect with people. I wanted to express myself, and the only way to do so was getting confident with the language. That was the moment I realized I want to study languages. I just want to speak with other cultures, understand more from other cultures, connect with them. Perhaps it’s because I come from the country of human relationships, and this turn my interest in learning languages.

Joseph: That’s amazing when I heard that. As you know, I’m originally from the United States. I come here to Europe and I suddenly realize that everybody speaks at least two languages, sometimes three. In your case, four or five. How did you pick up so many languages?

Stefania: [07:57] Of course, the more you travel, the more you have the chance to get in contact with other cultures, other traditions. I became curious. Curiosity was the driving factor for myself. Overall, I was really passionate about literature. I loved Spanish literature, Russian literature. I was driven by that. I was resilient. I wanted to read books in the language they were written. To me, that was like a goal. How do I get to this goal? To me, it was just like, “Yeah, let’s go into grammar. Let’s study grammar. Let’s try to speak then with the locals.” Everything that’s related to culture, traditions, it was really moving something inside my soul.

Joseph: That’s incredible. I would love to dive into this a little bit more because I know, just to switch gears here, if we go back in your history, you spent some time as an English teacher at a Japanese school in Milan. Before we talk about that, can you just tell me about your childhood? What did you want to be when you grew up? How did you think your work life and your adult life was going to look when you were a kid?

Stefania: [09:17] My biggest dream was actually to become an actress. I totally had a different path. Totally unexpected compared to what I’m doing now. Overall, I think my skills were related to communication and connecting with people, and I was a happy child overall. Smiling and I wanted to also make a difference in people’s lives. Perhaps also sharing the knowledge that I had, and also trying to learn from others. That’s why perhaps I ended up becoming a teacher. As a teacher, you teach, of course, but you get a lot from others, like from your students, from the people you’re working with. I think that teachers make a difference, a really big difference in your life. I must say that I was really, really lucky to have such great examples of teachers in my life. They really inspired me. They really pushed me in becoming a better person, a better student.

I’m also very conscious about the fact I could study. Now, education is a big topic and still in 2023, a lot of countries don’t have access to education. I was lucky enough to have this in my life. From the moment I understood I have access to education and I have access to great education, what can I grasp from this? How can I have an impact based on all the things that I’ve been in contact with, the people that have been in contact with? That, to me, was the moment that gave me confidence in moving forward in my career and in sharing what I was learning as well.

Joseph: What triggered you to start thinking about doing something else? It sounds like the teaching was going well, you’re having a positive impact on students. Was there something in particular that got you thinking, “Hey, I might want to try doing something different”?

Stefania: [11:28] I wanted to be in a new environment because, again, I am a very curious person. I know that I’m energized when I do something different all the time. To me, stability is important. But, at the same time, I really need to do something new and refresh. This opportunity came unexpected, to be honest. I was conducted back then by a head hunter because they saw that I had expertise in communication, that I was speaking several languages, and they were looking for someone who knew pretty well English, and Spanish, and Russian as well. They contacted me for a position in the press office in a fashion and luxury company, Dolce Gabbana based in Milan. I thought that’s the time to make this change and accept this change. I think I had nothing to lose back then. I gave everything to my job in the school but I also knew that it was time to try something new.

Joseph: You go from being in an academic environment at a Japanese school to one of the world’s most well-known fashion brands, Dolce and Gabbana. Can you give a glimpse into what that was like to work there, and what exactly were you doing as a press office specialist?

Stefania: [12:57] I was thrilled. I also started questioning myself like, “Why me?” It was an amazing experience. Working in the press office meant taking care of marketers and influencers, taking care of the credits where, of course, the company was mentioned in magazines and newspapers. Of course, online reports, online news. It was really exciting and you felt like being part of this magic world of fashion and luxury. Let’s say there in Milan, it’s really relevant, the sector. I felt thrilled. It was awesome. I loved my daily routine. I love translating press reviews. You really represented the brand.

Joseph: I’m just speculating, and also wondering. Is working for like a big fashion brand like that, is it as glamorous as it may seem from the outside? I guess I’m imagining a bunch of people who are super well-dressed, very fast-paced, very modern, very current, exciting dynamic environment. What were your expectations of what life would be like there and what was your life actually like there?

Stefania: [14:08] Absolutely, a nice environment. I must say very competitive. What we may see in movies, such as “The Devil Wears Prada.”

Joseph: That’s exactly what I was thinking about.

Stefania: [14:21] It’s absolutely true. There is a lot of competition. There is a lot of props, like pressure on what you do, and how you do that, and how you look, which is great. Don’t get me wrong. If this is what you want, you find exactly what you are looking for. But for myself, I had to be true to myself. I love the job. I loved my daily tasks. I also loved my colleagues and environment per se. But it became toxic for my personality because I tend to be a very competitive person. I tend to perfectionism like I want everything to be perfect. Back then, I didn’t have the tool to stop myself from being this way. It couldn’t last that long based on how I am.

Joseph: I see. It’s sort of this combination of wanting to be perfect, and also being in a very intense competitive environment. It sounds like that just was not sustainable over time?

Stefania: [15:26] If you, of course, have other priorities in your life and you want to focus on different things, perhaps it wasn’t really the best path for myself.

Joseph: How did you go about figuring out what you wanted to do next once you realized that, “Hey, this environment may not be where I want to remain, long term”? What did you do to gain some clarity on what your next chapter might look like?

Stefania: [15:53] There wasn’t a list of things that I was thinking about. I didn’t prepare any documents, like pros and cons. Of course, most of the current, let’s say mentorship or coaching programs propose, which I think do add a lot of value. But back then, I didn’t have those tools.

I was connected with some friends, so networking here really played a super important role. They told me, “You know, we’re looking for someone that is going to work in this business school in Milan. It’s a lot about employee relations and events, like connecting also students with job opportunities. Of course, in this role, it’s fundamental. You can speak English and perhaps speak also other languages. Because students are coming from all over the world. Do you want me to connect you to the head of the employee of relations and career services?” I thought, “Yes,” like immediately. I didn’t really think about that twice. I have, of course, my interview process and everything went super well. And then, I started my new job in a new industry, and of course, with a new magic team.

Joseph: This is, if I’ve got my timeline correct here, you were at Dolce and Gabbana for about a year. And then, in 2017, that is when you went to the SDA Bocconi School of Management in Milan, which is where you and I actually first cross paths. When I think we last saw each other face to face, which was in 2019. You were the career development and employer relations manager for the school. Can you explain what it was like to then go from Dolce and Gabbana back into more of an academic environment? This time, at a school of management but still in Milan. What was the transition like for you?

Stefania: [17:48] It was a quite smooth transition at the beginning. Also because I always say that once you change a job, what matters the most is how your team is welcoming you, how they’re going to support you. They helped me in this transition. They’ve mentored me. Bocconi was a very, very challenging environment. Perhaps there is this understanding of academic environments as more relaxed, or perhaps laid back. But, in this case, Bocconi was challenging. We had a lot of events. We were responsible for creating training programs for our MBA students and students that were coming from again all over the world, and they had high expectations. You’re asking a lot from yourself. You want to give the best. This environment put me in contact with a lot of great professionals, with a lot of ambitious people. I gave a lot to this business school. But I also think it gave me a lot as well.

Joseph: It is a really great environment there I have to say, Stefania. I’ve worked with, as you know I work with a lot of different business schools, and SDA Bocconi is just one of them. I do find the students there to be warm, and very diverse, and very friendly. At the same time, very demanding and also very achievement-oriented. And so, it’s an interesting combination.

Now, I remember having coffee with you across the street from Bocconi in 2019. Now, this is late 2019, which is when I was there to host an in-person workshop. And then, the pandemic happened. Can you explain to me what the pandemic meant for you in your career? First of all, what happened with the work that you were doing? And what did you start thinking about at that time?

Stefania: [19:45] Back then, I wanted to be challenged more. I wanted to experience something new. On top of this, my partner and I had a distance relationship, and we were ready to move to another country.

Joseph: Where was he based at the time?

Stefania: [20:01] He was based in Frankfurt, and then moved to Hamburg. I was based in Milan. We were looking for jobs all around the world. I ended up in Berlin. There were many things that actually contributed to this choice.

Back then, when COVID hit, I was really scared, frankly speaking. On top of that, they usually say that you should not change more than two variables at a time. Basically, I changed the industry. I changed my role. I changed country, everything all together during a pandemic. Of course, I was scared. I was not fearless. I thought, “Did I really take the right choice? Will I be successful?” Because once you join a new company in Germany, you have six months’ probation period. Something that you’re not used to. I really had a lot of questions. I was questioning myself. I was questioning my decision. I was, of course, a threat about it.

Unconsciously, perhaps you start putting all those fears that other people have as well. Because you may hear from other people, “Oh, you already have a safe job in Italy. Why are you moving? This is a full-time role. It’s a permanent role. You have security. You have stability. And now, for sure, there’s going to be a crisis. We don’t know what’s going to happen.” And then, I thought, “I know no one knows what is going to happen, with or without the pandemic.” I thought that there is like a certain amount of uncertainty that I can deal with to be happy with my life. The more I’m open to that, the happier I am. I really thought, “It’s time to move on. Let’s do this.”

Joseph: Did you have a job lined up in Germany before you moved, or did you make this move before you had all that sorted out?

Stefania: [22:20] I actually already received an offer. This all came before the pandemic started. I was in contact back then with an amazing recruiter working in Zalando. I was really worried, and I was contacting her every day. Like, “Is it really going to happen? Will everything be okay?” Because also all the airports were closed. I didn’t know. “Am I really going to be in that country? Will I be able to start?” It was really, really stressful.

On top of that, I was leaving my family. It was not really like I’m going on holiday. It’s like, I’m going there. I don’t know, can I actually go back and visit them? I have a very close relationship with my grandpas. They were like my parents, and I was really worried about, “Can I see them again?” All those things worried me but also made me grow.

Joseph: This is early 2020, when you made the move to Berlin. At the start of the pandemic, lots of uncertainty, lots of airport security. I actually remember at the time, Italy was in the news a lot with lockdowns and a lot of volatility in terms of the regulations. And so, you move over to Berlin. Can you just explain, like what was the toughest thing about making that move for you?

Stefania: [23:36] Leaving my family. I think that’s still heartbreaking for me because to me, family community is super important, like my friends. I was really worried about what will happen next. I was worried for their health. I was worried for whatever could happen in the future. I was worried for things that I could not control. I also had friends stating they would never do this because they loved their family so much and they would never leave their family in such conditions. But at the same time, I had just left my job and I had another contract to start soon in Germany.

Perhaps, again, I was unconsciously questioning myself, “Am I a bad person? Why did I take this decision?” And then, I think everything went smoothly when I took the time to step back, really ask myself, “Why did I take this decision?” Realizing that there is “no size fits all,” and take one step at a time. We shouldn’t rush into decisions, but at the same time, we shouldn’t let certain fears block us. I survived.

Joseph:  Listening to your story, Stefania, I can’t help but find myself thinking about a choice I also made, which was sort of similar to yours. Where I left the Bay Area, where my mother and father only lived a couple hours away from there in California at the time. I moved over here to the UK, which is where I’m now based. I felt very conflicted about that. It was a really hard thing for me to reconcile. Even to this day, I still sometimes find myself thinking, “Ah, I moved so far away from them.” I guess what I struggle with is completely being at peace with the decision. I’m just wondering on a day-to-day basis; how do you manage that? Or maybe another way of asking it is, how do you know when the decision is right even though it involves some major compromises?

Stefania: [26:04] If you wake up in the morning smiling, then, of course, you feel like that’s the right decision for you. When you face your fears, you just like they construct what is worrying you and why. You give those answers to yourself, you are already halfway. To me, facing fear, be resilient, and try to boost your confidence, bring in your passion every day for what you do. Of course, once you hear back from your family and from your friends and they tell you, “Oh, wow. It looks like you changed a lot. It looks like you’re super happy.” Like, you’re thrilled. Your eyes are shining. Then, you have those answers.

Joseph: I’m going to shift gears here. I just want to talk briefly about Zalando before we even talk about some of the things you’ve learned along the way. You’ve been at Zalando now for, roughly, three years. It seems like you’ve followed quite a rapid and very fast-paced acceleration in your career there. Can you let me know just how things have evolved for you at Zalando over the past three years?

Stefania: [27:14] Absolutely. Zalando is a fast-paced environment. It’s super dynamic, and this is what I love the most about it. Working in headhunting or recruiting to me is also like no two days are the same in this field. You need to constantly innovate your strategy, your approach. You have to try new ways to catch the attention of your stakeholders and of your hard-to-find candidates as well. While you do this, you always learn new things and you become the recruiter in your niche. You become the expert. You become the to-go person. This excites me. Perhaps the most important aspect to me is when I offer candidates their dream job. You’re changing their lives. There is no better feeling, and this gives you the energy to keep up with the good work.

Joseph: I can’t let you go, Stefania, without also asking you a couple recruitment questions. Because you are a talent acquisition partner for a very large organization, Zalando. I am just curious. How have you seen recruitment change over the past couple of years? You mentioned constantly having to innovate. Just wondering, since you’ve been involved in recruitment first on the careers team at a global business school, and now, at a global eCommerce fashion brand. Any major evolution you’ve noticed in the nature of recruitment?

Stefania: [28:45] The market has changed a lot. There is a lot of competition. Actually, candidates want more. They want more from companies, want more from employers. They want flexibility. I think now, there is more attention towards health topics, and towards how do you want to spend your life. There is more attention to those details relating to your private life. Basically, as a recruiter, you have to be an expert on different job families. You need to understand what are the job families that we’re going to hire most for in the next quarter.

Joseph: Since you focus on tech recruiting, Stefania, and you’re at a tech company, do you have any tips for someone interviewing for a role in tech? Where maybe they have limited direct experience or they don’t feel like they’re the most obvious candidate for the job on paper. I know I cross paths with candidates like this who are at business schools. The tech sector is always one that a lot of people are interested in getting into. But if you don’t come from the tech sector, any advice for someone who’s attempting to make that sort of a pivot into the industry?

Stefania: [30:04] First of all, apply. There are a lot of candidates, like potential candidates, that feel like they don’t have the skills to do so and they just refrain themselves from applying. If you don’t try, you’ll never know.

I push a lot of candidates to get back to recruiters like asking questions. Perhaps we have a first conversation and they don’t have questions for me, or they don’t ask for feedback, ask for feedback always, all the time. That’s the first and most important thing. On top of this, I think it’s super important to connect with people in your network, with people that have the experience that you would like to gain. It’s not about networking for the sake of doing that. It’s not just because you want to sell yourself. It’s good to connect, to create connections, to understand how certain industries work, to inform yourself about it. And then, you can also grasp a feeling, “Is there something for me? Is it something that I could consider?” I get a lot of knowledge around something that you want to do, about a role that you want to take. Connect with people. Ask for connections. Ask for a quick coffee chat, and try until you make it, that’s what I would say.

I must say that it took me a long time before I landed my dream job. I really left Zalando as the very last company I could apply for because that was my dream company as well. I really got a lot of rejections. But going through all those rejections and those failures, I would say, I understood what I wanted.

Joseph: Speaking of reflections, Stefania. The last thing I want to talk with you about before we wrap up are just some of your reflections on your very unique and interesting career journey. I’m wondering if you had to give advice to your younger self, as it relates to changing careers or even moving countries, what might that be?

Stefania: [32:08] Be open. Listen to yourself, like trying to gather reflections also from the people that you meet. The most important thing that I reflected on is that you can do things alone, you can go through everything, but there is also no need to do things alone. It’s important that you learn to be vulnerable somehow. And then, you can ask for help.

I just learned that having honest conversations with yourself is a priority. I understood that I’m just an adult in the ocean of knowledge. And when you work with such ambitious professionals, and especially with people that perhaps went through difficult situations and you hear certain stories, you start understanding what really counts in life, and that we all have the tools to make it happen if you really want it.

Joseph: The other thing I was hoping you could talk about relates to your move. Because I know that you mentioned, it was a challenging decision to move away from Italy to Germany, and leave some friends and family behind. Now that you are in Germany, when you look back on this leap, is there something that you wish you had known about moving locations that you now know?

Stefania: [33:41] You can’t expect everyone to see things as you do. I had my own opinions on my own ideas. I tended to think, “Okay, if I think this way, then it must be the same for everyone.” I wish I knew this before. I can’t expect everyone to react as I wished. I can’t expect everyone to be good to me. At the same time, I can’t be good to everyone. I can’t force myself also to be up to the expectations of others. I wish I knew I could let go of things and people faster. Because we all have different opinions and different paths in life and you have to accept that. I think that was one of the best learnings from a personal point of view.

Joseph: I was listening to you say that. I guess I also sometimes fall on the trap of letting others’ opinions maybe sway me too much, or disproportionately affect me, especially with the major decisions. Because on those big decisions you’re making in your life, you do want to get a second opinion. Whenever you’re doing anything major. Whether it’s getting surgery done on your body or making a major move, it’s useful to get those second opinions. At the same time, everybody’s coming at it from a different standpoint. Everybody’s coming at it from a different set of experiences themselves, which may have nothing to do with your actual unique situation

Stefania: [35:16] Correct. It’s like the same feeling that I had, and perhaps was the same feeling that was pushing me back from taking certain decisions. It’s because we have so many different opinions. We also have a lot of noise, and sometimes it’s not just to silence it and just reflect.

Joseph: Last question for you, Stefania, then I got to let you go here. Having been through this career change, what is one thing that you have learned about yourself along the way?

Stefania: [35:47] That I tend to be a people pleaser. Perhaps this is something that I have in common with so many other people I met within the last three years. I learned to protect myself and set boundaries. Because when you work with a lot of people, a lot of great professionals, and you perhaps meet a lot of people outside of work as well, and you are far away from the family, you are actually looking for a community and you want to build connections. To do so, you start behaving differently than how you really are. That’s what I learned about myself, “Oh, I’m really a people pleaser.” I didn’t know that that was the level that I was crossing. It was a little bit too much.

Here is another example where I needed to step back and give myself time to understand. If I could like find this peace within myself as well and not really just have to have the rush to connect because I’m in a new country, because they need to find new friends or new people to connect with, or like that could happen at work as well, really showing that you’re present, that you’re there. That you want to be in the middle of everything, and that you want to perhaps overperform as well. Really being there, being present. I learned to protect myself from many, many circumstances. Learned how to set boundaries. I think this is another super important thing to learn in life, generally speaking.

Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Stefania, for telling us more about your life there in Germany, and as a talent acquisition partner, your former press office role in the fashion industry, and the pivots in your life. And very importantly, how you know that you’ve made the right decisions for your career and your life, independent of what other people think. It was nice to reconnect with you. I wish you the best of luck with your role there at Zalando, and I hope things continue to go well for you there in Germany. Finally, I hope we’re also going to have a chance to meet up again at some point in the future.

Stefania: [38:09] Of course, Joseph.

What does it take to leave your corporate marketing job behind to create your own app? In this episode of Career Relaunch, Aniefre Essien, a former Consumer Goods Brand Marketer turned music streaming app Founder shares his thoughts the importance of conviction and being authentic to who you are. I also share some thoughts on how you can define what matters to you.

Key Takeaways

1. Find what’s meaningful in your life, and determine the mark you want to leave on the world.
2. Clarify your values to evaluate which actions and decisions serve you, make you happy, and lead to fulfillment.
3. Give yourself permission to pursue what you really want. You will be more at peace with yourself and your career path.

Tweetables to Share I wasn’t going to find happiness chasing that next promotion. Aniefre Essien Tweet This Having supportive people in your life is instrumental to taking a career leap. Aniefre Essien Tweet This Which career choice will allow you to be the person you want to be? Joseph Liu Tweet This Free Tool: Clarify Your Values

During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of clarifying what matters to you in your life & career. To help define your values, you can download my “Values Questionnaire” Worksheet

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About Aniefre Essien, Founder & CEO, Vaytus Media

Aniefre Essien has more than a decade of marketing experience, across a wide range of industries including Food & Wine, Home Cleaning, and Social Media. After spending years honing his craft at major corporations, Aniefre decided to leave the perceived security of the corporate world to launch his own start-up. He is the Founder/CEO of Vaytus Media LLC, a media streaming platform that enables convenient discovery of premium independent music.

Vaytus is a new, independent music streaming app, with hand selected, curated content from artists who create for the love of music. “Vayt-us” means elevate us, and is built on the premise that good music makes life better. At Vaytus, we’re a bunch of musicians and music lovers that know that the best, most honest music is being made by indie musicians not heard on the radio—so we built an alternative. The app is in testing now, and will be released soon. People can pre-register for an account at vaytus.com and follow Vaytus on Facebook.

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Episode Interview Transcript

Teaser (first ~15s): No matter what you do, you will never make 100% of the people happy. There’s always going to be someone that’s going to disagree with every decision you make, so then it’s about understanding what really matters for you and then making that decision and being comfortable with it.

Joseph: Aniefre, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for making the time to speak with me today because I know you’ve been a busy guy lately. I know you’ve just moved from Los Angeles to Jacksonville, Florida. You’ve just given a talk at the University of Michigan Ross School of Business, where we both did our MBAs, on managing risk in your career, which I definitely want to come back to.

First, could you start by briefly telling us a little bit about Vaytus, the independent music streaming app company you founded, and what you’ve been working on there lately?

Aniefre: Absolutely. First and foremost, thanks for having me, Joseph. It’s always good to talk with you, and I’m happy to share what we have going on with Vaytus.

Joseph: Thank you.

Aniefre: Vaytus, it’s a made up word that stands for ‘elevate us’ kind of smashed together. The basic premise is that music makes life better.

For a while, I was one of those people who subscribed to the fact that good music was dead, and if I wanted to hear good music, I have to listen to old stuff. Then, I got turned on to the underground scene or the independent music scene. I found there was really great music that’s being made by amazing artists all over the country who decided, ‘I’m going to make art based upon what I like.’ The idea of Vaytus is there are millions upon millions of people across United States and even more across the globe who love great, independent music, and they want this type of content I’m calling theistically authentic.

I have a team of curators who are industry professionals. Some of them are DJs, some are artists, and they go and they curate great music across different genres, and we pool it together into our player. So instead of a listener having to go and search all over the internet trying to find great music, they can come to Vaytus, and it’s kind of like a curated watering hole for great music that you’d never hear in the mainstream.

Joseph: What are you guys working on there right now?

Aniefre: We’ve just finished the first version of the app, and it’s in alpha testing.

Joseph: Congratulations.

Aniefre: I appreciate it. I’m kind of working around the clock right now because I’m totally obsessed with this thing. I’m getting emails and texts at different times of the day and night with people who are experiencing and playing with the app and want to provide feedback. We’re trying to make sure we catch all of the bugs that may be there so we can release a pretty quality beta release here for the general public.

Joseph: You’ve not always been in the start-up world, right?

Aniefre: No.

Joseph: I got to tell people – I got an email from you recently that was two sentences. I don’t know if you remember this, but it said, ‘I left the corporate world for good this time.’ Can you just share what was going on for you and your career before you launched Vaytus?

Aniefre: There was kind of a false start in this leaving of the corporate world. I went and got my MBA, and when I graduated, I took a job. I primarily took a job to make a good living while Vaytus incubated and was being developed by the long. Then, I left the corporate world and went to do Vaytus full-time. We needed to go back to step one. We needed to scrap what we had been doing and rebuild from the ground up.

I needed to then go back to making a living, so I took another job going back into the corporate world, and that definitely was like eating spinach for a child. I knew that the time had come and gone. I went into the corporate world originally to learn some things, and it has a lot of value working for major corporations, and I learned a lot there, but I had a pretty good sense – I was 80-90% sure that I shouldn’t be trying to build a career there, but there’s something to the stability of direct-deposited pay checks.

So I went in, I worked with integrity, and I felt like I brought value, but I just really dreaded going to work. It wasn’t just Mondays. It was Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. I went in to work one day, and I was like, ‘This can’t go on any longer.’ That’s when I decided to go ahead and put in my resignation and take the leap.

Joseph: When you say, ‘This couldn’t go on any longer,’ what are you talking about in terms of the things that were just eating away at you?

Aniefre: It’s about the work. There are three potential paths. We can go X, Y, and Z. You go and you do your due diligence, you do your analysis, you run your numbers, you talk with your cross-functional team, and you figure out, ‘Given our particular strategic goals and given our strengths and weaknesses, the category and dynamics, etc., we probably should do X or even X or Y,’ but ultimately, somebody in the bigger chair had a lot of passion for doing Z, so you find a way to try and deny gravity, deny that water is wet, deny that fire is hot so that you can do Z – I’m not that personality type. Why did I spend a month working with my team to try and figure out what we should do to get the optimal result if, at the end of the day, we’re just going to do Z? There are certain personality types who are fit for that. I’m just not one of them.

Joseph: When you had your original stint in the corporate world, how many years was that before you launched off and worked on Vaytus?

Aniefre: All in, I’ve done 10 years in the corporate world as a marketer. I worked for bear companies. I worked at major CPG companies. I’ve worked in the wine industry.

Joseph: You mentioned the steady pay check earlier. What was that like, that moment when you decided to leave that behind and pursue Vaytus?

Aniefre: It’s definitely difficult because you have the perpetual tension between long term versus short term. I think most people get caught up in the short-term practical compromises that one needs to make to live in the society versus what’s really going to be meaningful to their life and what type of mark they want to leave in the world. It definitely was really difficult to figure out how to make that jump and have the conviction, especially—I don’t want to turn this to a sad story, but—I’m not a rich kid, and so there’s not some rich uncle or a trust fund mother who’s sitting behind me and saying, ‘Okay, chase your dreams. I’ll be able to float all your bills.’

Joseph: ‘I’ll catch you if you fall,’ right?

Aniefre: Taking that leap required some soul searching, and to be honest, it’s really helpful to have really strong supportive people in my life, from my girlfriend to my family members to my close personal friends or I count as chosen family. That really was instrumental in my going in and deciding to take that leap – knowing that there would be people there to help in some way if I needed it.

Joseph: In your talk at the University of Michigan, you talked about five principles, and one of them that stood out to me was take the calculated leap. How did you manage the personal risk in your own life, in your own career, making this leap into the unknown?

Aniefre: You referenced the five principles, and I will just rattle them off really quickly from the talk that I gave. First, you need to know yourself. Second, you need to have conviction. Third, you need to be more curious than afraid. Fourth, you need to take the calculated leap. Fifth, you need to enjoy the journey.

If you go back to the first principle that I believe anyone can use to leverage managing risk in their career, it’s understanding who you are and what you are and what you’re not. I’ve always maintained that I’m somebody who is in this world, not of this world. I’ve never really bought into ‘I need to go get a job and a title from some Fortune 500 company, and I need to be the VP of whatever to find value in my life.’ I’m opposite of that. I’m into authentic human connection. I tend to be the type of person who is more concerned with what’s going on with the least fortunate in society as opposed to the most fortunate in society and trying to be a part of that elite crowd.

Understanding that those are the things that ultimately matter to me in life, making the choice to go ahead and take that leap and to leave it behind wasn’t that tough because I felt like I was sacrificing who I was and my integrity every day, going in and trying to find ways to agree with something I fundamentally didn’t believe in. I’ve had to sacrifice my personal integrity to do it. That was just a price that was entirely too high.

When I looked at the mark I wanted to leave in the world and the life that I wanted to lead in general, going back to knowing myself and what really mattered to me, I knew that I needed to just go ahead and take that leap because I wasn’t going to be happy. I wasn’t going to find happiness chasing the next promotion.

Joseph: You and I both spent quite a bit of time in the corporate world. If you’re like me, you run across other people in the corporate world who are thinking about launching something or they’re not happy with their jobs, but then they stick with it for months or years. Having gone through this yourself, what do you think keeps people from making this sort of leaps, even if it means being able to pursue something that will be a lot more meaningful to them?

Aniefre: I would say the concise answer as to why people stay is they become beholden to the material benefits. People like to have disposable income, especially at the levels in which you and I worked in Corporate America. It’s a pretty good salary, and so the lifestyle you’re able to lead from a material standpoint is a pretty comfortable lifestyle. I think that’s why people stay.

Then, I think the other piece is fear of the unknown. I like to invest in myself, and I have a large amount of confidence in myself and my abilities, and so going back to those five principles, it’s understanding who I was, then I put conviction around it by saying, ‘This is who I am, but I need to align my actions and behavior around it.’ Then, I really came to understand what it took to create, grow, and sustain a company, not just to have a job function but to holistically build a company, pull a team together, pool resources together, and then lay out a growth plan and be able to manage and lead that.

It became less of a black box. It became less mysterious, which then took away a lot of that fear that I think most people are talking about, like, ‘I hate this, but what else will I do?’ People don’t know what to do. It’s kind of abstract. ‘I would like to start a company,’ or ‘I would like to do this, but I don’t know exactly how to do it,’ and so they end up trapped.

Joseph: You mentioned money. Has there been anything surprising to you about the experience of letting go of your cushy corporate income?

Aniefre: To be blunt, I think where I’m at advantage is having grown up with very low income. I always say that my floor is a lot lower than most people, and so what I can be comfortable with is a lot lower than most people. So it wasn’t necessarily a surprise. I mean it is nice. It is nice to have that direct deposit every two weeks, but ultimately, it got to the point to where the price was too high.

I think early on in my career when I was within Corporate America and I was learning, that compensated for what I’d call the cubicle life. When it got to a point to where there was diminishing returns in terms of my learning curve and what then remained was an increase in scope of responsibility, I wasn’t really interested in what came with the increased scope of responsibility. So then, it was time to go.

Joseph: Did you run across any skeptics along the way in terms of, ‘What are you doing?’ or, ‘Why are you leaving this cushy job behind?’ Did you run to any sorts of people like that?

Aniefre: I did. I think one of another area in which I’m really blessed though is the people who are closest to me have a really keen understanding of who I am and what I value. They were able to see the toll it started to take on my once the learning curve started to diminish and I slowly have to deal more with the politics and jockeying for increased scope of leadership. They were all very supportive in terms of people in my inner circle. The folks who were skeptical, I got a good gift of being able to block out people’s opinions who don’t really matter.

Joseph: How do you do that? What’s your secret to doing that? Because I run into so many people who want to make a change, but they say, ‘I don’t know. In my social circle, people are saying this is crazy,’ or, ‘My parents think it’s crazy for me to let go of such a great job.’ How do you manage that?

Aniefre: I think that can be really difficult. One of the things I was taught growing up is that there’s the classic, ‘If other people were jumping off a cliff, are you going to jump off a cliff too?’ like your parents tell you when you’re a kid growing up. One of the things I internalized is, as an adult, when you figure out right from wrong, you need to have the conviction to stand up for it.

There’s these plethora of things from my background, from being an athlete, from also being a former martial artist, from growing up in a pretty tough community and having to navigate my childhood and adolescent years. A lot of those things reinforced courage in different ways. Ultimately, when I got to a point as a young adult and moving from my early 20s and from my mid-20s, it became really clear that you’re not going to make everyone happy. No matter what you do, you will never make 100% of the people happy. There’s always going to be someone who’s going to disagree with every decision you make, so then it’s about understanding what really matters to you and then making that decision and being comfortable with it.

There have been people who didn’t agree with a particular person. Like when I left at a post-MBA level job prior to business school, but I still left and went to business school, there were some people who didn’t agree with that. They’re like, ‘What are you doing? You have the job that people get after business school. You have it now.’

Joseph: Everybody wants that.

Aniefre: But they didn’t see my long-term vision and where I was going, and I knew it was the right thing to do – to go back to school. There were certain skills that I just was not going to learn as a brand marketer: developing an idea, building a company, and growing it throughout all these different phases. I took that leap, and I think now that they see the Vaytus app is a tangible thing and exists, they’re like, ‘I get it. I get where you’re going. I get what you’re trying to do.’ I think ultimately it comes down to having that ability to believe in yourself when no one else does.

Joseph: One of the things that you alluded to just now was conviction. I know you mentioned it as one of the five principles you spoke about before when it comes to managing risk in your career. What do you mean by ‘conviction’ and how has that served you along this journey?

Aniefre: If you don’t believe in what you’re saying, no one else will. If I want to say that I really want to get in better shape, but I go buy a dozen of donuts a couple of times a week and I never go to the gym, that’s not really conviction. You need to start aligning your actions to what your priorities are.

I think it’s doing an audit of what it is that you really want in life and what really matters to you and then doing an audit of how you are spending your time. Of the things you are currently doing in your life or in your career, which one of those things are moving you towards your goals? When you recognize that there’s a gap, that there are things that you’re doing that will never lead to the life that you want, then it becomes incumbent upon you to alter how you’re spending your time. That’s what I mean by conviction.

Joseph: I see. What’s been the toughest thing about launching your own business?

Aniefre: I would definitely say it’s the conviction piece and keeping the faith, because inevitably, you’re going to hit hurdles. You need to have this deep reservoir of belief in yourself, and you need to understand what it’s going to take to be successful and where you’re at in the journey. When you run into obstacles on Day 3 out of a 30-day journey, don’t get upset about getting to Day 30 and saying how far you are away. You’re in Day 3, what can you solve today to get to Day 4? It’s having this deep belief that, when everyone thinks you’re crazy, when everyone thinks your foolish, when things seem bleak, break it down into bite-size chunks and say, ‘What is it that I can do today to get over these hurdles?’

The hardest part for me has been getting to what I call Day 1, which I think we’re at Day 1 now that the app is built, taking something from this idea and getting it to where it actually exists. How do you get people to believe in something that doesn’t exist? It’s just an idea.

When obstacles arise and you’re still in just an idea phase and you’re trying to bring this thing to life, it’s very easy for people to walk away. It’s finding very passionate, very smart, and very talented people to come along on this ride, getting key stakeholders, like my girlfriend, like my brothers and different people in my family to say, ‘We believe in you. We support you,’ getting early angel investors to say, ‘We’re going to put a little money behind this.’ It’s, when things start to go array, to not get flustered, to not be overly dramatic, and to actually become calmer when things get chaotic.

That was really difficult because there were some bumps definitely along the road. During that phase, in going from idea to Day 1 and having an actual physical product, it’s difficult to persevere when obstacles arise.

Joseph: You mentioned enjoying the ride or coming along for this ride. What makes that so important for you?

Aniefre: My fundamental belief in life is that relationships are what matter. Titles are ultimately not going to make you happy in life. Your pay check also is not going to make you happy in life. It’s how you spend your time and who you spend it with, so ultimately, me chasing after things that aligned with who I was and my convictions is where I find my rewards.

As I’ve been navigating through and when I think of all the obstacles that the Vaytus team has overcome, they’re all happy memories for me. I’ve enjoyed the journey even when things got rough and bumpy and looked like we had no idea how we’re going to get over next hurdle or the month or two where there were blockages, and we can’t figure out how to get to the next phase, and then we’d figure it out. That whole journey, in and of itself, I enjoy.

I do watch the show ‘The Walking Dead.’ It’s like, every time they solve a problem, there’s some other catastrophe that’s right around the way, and that’s what starting a startup is like – there’s always a problem to deal with, and I enjoy it. If I didn’t, then I probably should be back in the corporate world collecting my nice, safe pay check, but I enjoy this process and the people that I’m working with. It’s very important to work with people you respect and that respect you.

Joseph: It sounds like you’re enjoying the ride there, Aniefre. I just wanted to thank you for sharing your journey with us because it’s just really cool to hear, first of all, your experiences in the corporate world but then also how you made that pivot into launching your own business. That’s super exciting, and I hope it all goes well for you.

The final principle you talked about was curiosity. Just to kind of wrap things up, if people are curious about learning about you or about Vaytus, where should they go to find out more?

Aniefre: They can go to Vaytus.com. They can follow us on Facebook.com/vaytusradio, or they can follow me on Twitter, which is @Aniefre. There’s going to be a lot of content being pushed out over the next few weeks and into the next few months as we launch Vaytus. You definitely will be able to download the app.

Joseph: Super exciting, Aniefre. I’m looking forward to checking out the app and listening to the music, and I hope it all goes well for you. I’m sure it will.

Aniefre: I appreciate it. Cheers.

Welcome to the debut episode of Career Relaunch!

What does it take to leave a comfortable, stable job behind to pursue your lifelong dream? In this very first episode of Career Relaunch, Kelly Cara, a former Educational Researcher turned Health-Supportive Chef & Lifestyle Wellness Educator shares her perspectives on giving yourself permission to do work you enjoy, taking the brave steps to start that journey, and understanding the tradeoffs involved when you leave stability behind. I also share highlights from my own career reinvention story then share thoughts  on how you can start reinventing yourself.

Key Takeaways

1. Acknowledging you’re not satisfied with your day-job is the first step toward moving onto something more fulfilling and meaningful.
2. Career change doesn’t happen overnight. It happens by taking small, manageable steps toward the life you want, then being brave enough to leave the status quo behind and take the plunge to make it happen.
3. Initiating a change is the hardest part of change, but sometimes, you just have to force yourself to start somewhere.

Tweetables to Share

When I gave myself permission to do what I wanted to do, it was a big moment of relief. Kelly Cara Tweet This
If you've been thinking about a change, you eventually have to DO something to make it happen. Kelly Cara Tweet This
Things don’t have to go perfectly. What’s important is that you just start somewhere. Joseph Liu Tweet This

Free Tool: Define Your Starting Point

During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about how starting somewhere, even if imperfect, is important to creating the career change you desire. To help you begin, you can download my “Defining Your Starting Point” Worksheet

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About Kelly Cara, Health-Supportive Chef & Lifestyle Wellness Educator

Kelly Cara is a certified health-supportive chef and Complete Health Improvement Program (CHIP) facilitator. After completing a master’s degree in experimental psychology, Kelly worked for several years in a behavioral health facility and then for a higher education institution as a researcher. Through those career experiences, Kelly discovered a passion for educating others about health, wellness, and how to live one’s most vibrant life through research-supported nutritional and lifestyle modifications. She and her husband recently started their own business, V-Life, to turn that passion into a viable career. Learn more about her culinary adventures at Natural Epicurean.

If you’re based in Austin and interested in living a healthier lifestyle, check out Kelly’s Website, Facebook Page, and her Austin CHIP Meetup page.

If you’ve been pondering a culinary career yourself, check out Natural Epicurean’s Plant-Based Culinary School. They also offer a Career Changers and Entrepreneurs Scholarship, which you can learn more about here.

Finally, if you want to learn more about food virtually, Natural Epicurean has recently launched an exciting new online learning platform. So be sure to check that out too.

Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

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Episode Interview Transcript

Teaser (first ~15s): I’d been in a place that wasn’t getting me closer to my life goals, that when I finally gave myself permission to go and do what it was that I wanted to do, that relief was definitely a sense of saying, ‘I’m not sure where it’s going to lead me, but it’s going to be okay.’

 

Joseph: Kelly, thanks so much for joining me today. I’m super excited to talk to you. Thanks for being willing to share your story here on Career Relaunch.

Kelly: Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Joseph: What’s keeping you busy right now in Austin?

Kelly:  A lot of things going on. I’m working full-time as a manager of an up-and-coming, rapidly growing bakery here in Austin. It’s all vegan and gluten-free.

Joseph: What’s the name of the bakery?

Kelly: The name of the bakery is Better Bites Bakery here in Austin. That’s paying the bills, and it’s given me a lot of good experience in my new career area. I’ve also got a lot of side projects more related to wellness education and nutrition. That’s really my focus, so I’m keeping busy with a lot of that. Not a lot of free time right now, but recipe development, teaching a little bit at a culinary school down here called Natural Epicurean, also getting my own business started.

Joseph: Very cool. You have also been working as a vegan baker. Is that right?

Kelly: Yes, the bakery that I work in now, I started as a full-time lead baker over there. We’re now fully vegan, and I transitioned from the lead baker position into the management position in May of 2015.

Joseph: I definitely want to hear more about your journeys as a vegan baker, but before we get to that, I would love to just go back in time a little bit. When you and I reconnected, 2013 I think, you were back in our hometown of Springfield, Missouri, right?

Kelly: Yup.

Joseph: Just so people know, you and I have known each other since 1990. Then I left Springfield in 1996 for college, and then I know you went off to the Peace Corps. Then after 17 years, we reconnected. I was wondering if you could just take us back to the moment before you were doing the vegan bakery and the culinary school. What were you up to at the time?

Kelly: I was working full-time as the Assessment Research Coordinator for Missouri State University. What that means is I had a Master’s degree in Experimental Psychology, and I was teaching Statistics at the university just per course. Then I got this full-time position in the Assessment Office, doing a lot of research around educational benchmarks, anything related to student learning, student motivation. We’re looking at GPAs and test scores and doing all kinds of research like that.

The reason I even got into that field was that I was interested in wellness – specifically mindfulness, being able to live your best life by paying attention to the world around you, paying attention to how you feel, paying attention to the people around you. The research I was doing at the university wasn’t about that, so I was starting to feel some job dissatisfaction.

My job paid well, and it had really nice benefits. I was in my hometown with my family, and my husband’s family were all there. We had a good apartment. Life wasn’t bad by any means, but I just did not enjoy going in to work every day because it wasn’t focused on anything that I was really that passionate about or interested in. The skills I was using were valuable, but the topics themselves were not really that interesting to me.

Joseph: This is going to sound like a strange question, but how did you know you weren’t happy?

Kelly: I kind of came in in the morning, I did my work, and I left, and I tried not to think about it when I left. I think that’s a good clue.

Joseph: It’s a good sign.

Kelly: I’d heard somebody somewhere say, you should try to live your passion, and if you’re able to get paid for what you love doing, then you’re a lucky person. I thought the things that I do in my free time, on my own time, have nothing to do with what I’m doing at work, and I’m really interested in these other things. These other things feel much more engaging and fulfilling for me, and I’m not getting that at work. Those were all telltale signs that I wasn’t enjoying it.

I also wasn’t always taking good care of my health, and so during the first three years of that job, I didn’t feel vibrant.

Joseph: Why was that?

Kelly: It was a desk job, and I’d had pretty active jobs prior to that, being in Peace Corps, and I worked at a psychiatric hospital where I was up on my feet a lot, moving around, working with people. This was a desk job where I was sitting in an office with no windows in the attic floor of an old administrative building. I felt like my legs would ache as I was sitting there. I was getting vitamin D deficiency. I wasn’t in the sun.

I started going to yoga like crazy. I was actually coping with some of these work stresses with copious amounts of hot yoga. I thought, again, another telltale sign that something’s not working for me in my eight hours a day at work.

Joseph: How did that balance play out for you between what you’re doing at work, which wasn’t very enjoyable, and then all this stuff on your evenings and weekends, which you found a lot more enjoyable?

Kelly: It wasn’t enough to offset it, and I think that’s ultimately what led to the decision to make the career change: I wanted to do recipe testing and development, I wanted to start my own business, and I had written down all these ideas, waking up at 2:00 in the morning and thinking we’ve got to help people and let them know practical ways to make lifestyle changes. I’m writing all these ideas down but not having real time to dedicate to it. It was enough to kind of keep my non-work life interesting, but it wasn’t enough to be really fulfilling. I saw a lot of potential in the direction that I wanted to go, and I wasn’t able to pursue that with the amount of time or attention that I wanted to pursue it.

Joseph: When did you realize it needed to be more than this ‘middle of the night’ stuff?

Kelly: I don’t know what inspired this, but one day, I was sitting around in the evening with my husband. I was really feeling dissatisfied, and I asked myself the question—maybe we were having a conversation about it, maybe the lottery was on the TV or something—I was like, ‘What would I do with my life if I had a million dollars and could just stop and do whatever I wanted?’ The immediate response to that was go to culinary school, which was a surprise to me.

I’m vegan, and a big part of food in our household is about nutrition and what food can actually do to help heal you and to energize you and equip you for life. I was thinking, ‘Man, I’d love to go to culinary school. I wonder if there’s a vegan culinary school out there.’ I get on the computer and I look, and lo and behold, here’s Natural Epicurean Academy of Culinary Arts in Austin, Texas, 10 hours south from where we lived in Springfield.

I think just knowing that that place existed was enough for me to say, ‘This is something that I actually really want to do. How can I make this happen? Is it possible for me to do this?’ This would mean moving to Austin, at least for the six-month program. It would mean completely shifting careers from researcher at a higher education institution to a culinary world. How do you explain that to anybody?

Joseph: Totally different.

Kelly: Knowing that my ultimate goal was to be helping people reach healthier, more well-balanced lives through nutrition and a variety of things, culinary was just going to be one piece of that. Just knowing that that resource was out there really made me start thinking about the possibility of change.

Joseph: What did you do next once you knew this was out there? Because this seems like a pretty big leap. Comfortable job, near your family, decent income, stable lifestyle, and then this leap into something totally different. What did you do the next day once you started to realize you wanted to pursue this?

Kelly: That night, I actually filled out a form on their website that was like, ‘Are you interested in learning more about the school?’ I filled it out, and for the next two years, I got emails from them saying, ‘When are you going to come to our school?’ Because of that, I constantly had this connection with them, and I was starting to have a dialogue with them:

‘Here’s my situation. I don’t know that I can leave right now, but I’m thinking about it. We’re going to have to save up some money if we’re going to do this.’

‘You don’t understand. My husband just started teaching, and now, we’re both going to have to uproot and move, or I’m going to have to find an apartment for six months. That seems kind of odd.’

I mean there was a lot to work through. Twenty-twelve was when I first had that experience, and then 2014 was when I actually started in the school. It was filling out a form. I guess really just taking the first step by asking that question: What would it mean for me to come and attend your school? Are people like me doing this? Is this something that you could see as being possible if I don’t want to leave my job and Springfield? I just had to start asking some questions.

Joseph: Can you take us to that day when you made the move out? What was that day like? I want to just imagine. That would just be full of excitement and nervousness. I’m just curious what that was like for you – that day when you moved to Texas.

Kelly: I was over the nerves by that point. I was very excited and relieved actually. I don’t want to say like a burden had been lifted because that probably happened the day I turned in my resignation for my position, but there was a sense of that too – this relief and a little bit of sadness leaving my apartment back home. We lived there for three or four years, and so there were some familiar things I’d grown up in Springfield. I had never lived somewhere else in the United States. I had lived other places overseas.

I am an adventurer and I do like to go travel to new places, but picking up and moving someplace else, I guess there was a little bit of this unknown. You’re just driving toward it physically, going to this place that I’ve never lived before. I’d say a lot of excitement.

I did have a lot of peace of mind though. By that time, I’d worked through a lot of the nervousness and the doubt. I was feeling pretty hopeful and excited to start my new culinary school. I mean it was a dream. That was something that I’d been wanting to do for two years, and four days later, I was going to be in my first class. It was exciting.

Joseph: Very interesting. There’s one word you used in there that I’d love to go back to. What you said was ‘relief.’ What was the relief about?

Kelly: I think the relief was about finally doing it. I’d been wanting to do it for so long, and I’d been in a place that wasn’t getting me closer to my life goals for so long that when I finally gave myself permission to go and do what it was that I wanted to do, even if it meant telling people.

I had a hard time telling people, ‘I’m quitting my job to go to culinary school in Austin. Devin doesn’t have a job. I don’t have a job. I don’t know what’s going to happen. I’m just going to go.’ People can look at you like you’re crazy, but that relief was definitely a sense of saying, ‘It doesn’t matter. I’m doing it anyway. I’m going to find out what’s going to happen,’ and, ‘I know enough about myself that I’m not going to be a failure. I’m not sure where’s going to leave me, but it’s going to be okay.’ I finally allowed myself to acknowledge that. That was definitely a moment of relief.

Joseph: How much did it affect you when people gave you those strange looks? You got something so stable right now, and now you’re going into something that you don’t even know how it’s going to work out. This is something I hear from a lot of people: they’ve got friends or family who are working in stable jobs, and they just look at you funny when you go and pursue something that’s so non-traditional. How much did that affect you, and how did you deal with that?

Kelly: I caught myself doing a couple of different things. I emailed everyone that I had ever really worked with face-to-face in my four and a half years at the university, and I let them know what I was doing. I tailored some of those emails more personally for people I’d really worked closely with, but in general, I kind of let people know what was going on.

I got a lot of email responses. Half of them were, ‘Oh my gosh, I’m so glad for you. Do what you love. I had a chance to do that in my life, and I’ve never looked back. I never regretted it a day,’ and then other people that were saying things like, ‘Really? This sounds like an interesting experience.’ You could tell they were trying not to be mean, but they definitely were like, ‘What the heck are you thinking?’

I definitely caught myself pulling on the more research and nutrition side of the school when I was explaining myself instead of just saying, ‘You know what? I’m going to culinary school. It sounds like fun. I’m going to try it out and see if it helps me get closer to my career goal.’ I caught myself explaining it a little more, like, ‘Oh, no. I’m going to get into nutrition research, and they’ve got this Science of Nutrition Class. It’s all very scientific, and I’m a researcher.’

Then I eventually started just being more and more real about it. Depending on who I was talking to, I was able to say things like, ‘I want to try it out. We’re trying to start a business eventually, and I think this is going to help me get there. It’s going to at least give me confidence.’

Joseph: I think that comes up a lot: we almost feel like we’ve got to justify our decisions or defend our decisions, both to other people and also to ourselves.

You started the National Epicurean Academy of the Culinary Arts. What’s it like for you when you start there, because this is radically different from being an Assessment Research Coordinator?

Kelly: I’ve always been a good student, but a traditional classroom is where you sit, and you have your books, and there’s the teacher, and you kind of know what that environment is like. The first day of culinary school, we’re sitting there in our chef’s coats and these wacky, black-and-white chef pants that look like clown pants, and we have these big clogs on that are nonslip shoes and a hat. Here, I come from this really professional setting, dressing up every day, and then now I’m taking out the trash and doing these other things.

Joseph: Were you literally taking out the trash?

Kelly: Yeah, we did. At the end of every day, you’re cleaning the kitchen and all of that. It was six months of having to understand that industry a little bit, but that first day, I was actually a little nervous. Like I said, I’ve always been a good student, and I always feel very good and excited on the first day of school, but at the culinary school, I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, knife skills. What if I don’t have it?’ I was nervous, but within a couple of days, I felt very much at home. It took me a little while to get over the outfit, but other than that, I felt pretty good about it and started getting a lot of confidence.

Joseph: Were there other challenges that came up with this career change?

Kelly: Financially, I knew that if I was going to stay within the food industry side of it, which I was going to have to do at least a little bit to complete my certificate, there’s no money in food unless you’re at the top or unless you’re like a chef star or something on Food Network. Austin’s an expensive place to live, much more expensive than Springfield, Missouri. We had savings, and we knew that we were making this move, and there wouldn’t be a lot of money in the beginning, but trying to figure out how to make a comfortable life for us here on a very small pay check, that was a big challenge at first.

Joseph: What do you say to people who use money as their reason why they’re not pursuing something that they would rather be doing?

Kelly: I kind of don’t consider it a great excuse. I understand it because I felt it too. If you really want to do it, you can find other things to cut out of your life, other expenses to cut out of your life in order to save and to make those moves toward what you want. The rewards on the other end, even if I’m not making as much money—which actually, now that I got moved into a management position, I’m making approximately the same salary I was in my research job by the way.

Joseph: Interesting.

Kelly: It worked out really well for me, but I was serious about it, and I had a really hard decision to make when that opportunity opened up, ‘Do I actually want to be a manager of a bakery? This is not what I moved here for.’

I just feel like people cushion their lives quite a bit with a lot of unnecessary comforts. If you’re really trying to break out and do something different, you’re going to have to tighten the belt a little bit for a while, save up, and give yourself some leeway, so that if you don’t get a job in your new field right away, you can survive that. I don’t need the newest phone. I don’t need the newest computer. The resources that I have right now are working for me, and they’re not getting in the way of me pursuing my goals.

If I start spending radically in other ways, then I could use that as an excuse, but I think, ultimately, if you want to do it, money doesn’t need to stand in your way.

Joseph: When you look back on this trajectory, is there something that you wish you would’ve known?

Kelly: I wish I would’ve known that it was okay to change because I probably wouldn’t have held on to that job for so long. I’m a very logical person, and I’m very plan-oriented. If I don’t know what the plan is, then I don’t like to leap. I wish I would have known earlier on that it was going to work out and that it would be okay. That’s not something I could have known.

Ultimately, that’s what pushed me to make that final move. I had a conversation with my mom at the dinner table before we moved down here to Austin, and I asked her. I said, ‘Is this the stupidest thing I’ve ever done?’ She looked at me and said, ‘It’s going to work out. It always does,’ and it’s true. Sometimes, it’s just that little reminder that it is going to work out.

I will find a way to make it work out. I never just give up. That’s not who I am. If you really know yourself and if you pay attention to how you’ve managed your life, then I think you can have that confidence to just step out there and say, ‘You know what? My heart is leading me in this direction. Maybe my mind is leading me in this direction, but it’s something that I want to pursue. It’s going to be okay.’ If it’s not okay, you’ll find something else to do, ultimately. That’s the comfort. There will be something else that you can do. You can always find something else.

Joseph: That’s a great story to hear, because I think sometimes, we get in our own ways of making progress in our careers. I know that things kind of work out, but obviously, you’ve also put in a lot of work. Has there been a tool that you’ve used that has helped you stay on track with your goals?

Kelly: Periodically, probably about twice a year now, maybe even three times a year, I’m reassessing, ‘What am I doing right now? Am I on track?’ and I’ll sit down and write, ‘Here’s what I’m doing. This is what I want to be doing. What steps need to happen in order for me to get there?’ You helped me work through that actually when we were trying to decide whether or not to move down here. ‘What would you need to do in order to get there if that is where you ultimately want to go?’ I sit down and I do that. I write down some of those things.

Sometimes, it’s very practical stuff. ‘I need to email this person about this piece of equipment that we’re going to be using. I need to get the business cards made. I need to reach out to these people about getting some videos done.’ Sometimes, it’s much more fluid than that. ‘I am working full-time at a bakery. What does that mean in terms of my time dedicated to opening my own business? Is it helping me or how is it hurting me at this point?’

Joseph: Is there a great piece of career advice that you’ve received?

Kelly: It’s very simple, and it is not a plug for Nike, but my dad told me, ‘If you’ve got all these ideas, you’ve got all this stuff that you want to do, do it.’ That’s ultimately the best career advice that I’ve had. Instead of just thinking about it all the time and saying, ‘I’m wanting to do this. I think it’s a good idea. I can’t see how I could fail,’ go do it. I think ultimately, that’s the hardest part of it, but it’s also the only part that’s going to make it happen.

Joseph: That’s true. That is really good advice. I know that I’m like you. I’m a planner. I like to reflect on stuff and then map things out. At the end of the day, you’ve got to do something. It’s definitely a mind-set shift when you’re working for an organization, very task-focused, and then running your own business or trying to start your own thing, that action leads to opportunities. Easier said than done sometimes.

What’s one habit that has consistently served you well in your career?

Kelly: The first word that comes to mind is responsibility. I’m just always, probably to a fault, very responsible, and I always do what I know I’m supposed to do. If it means fill out these forms to create your new business, I read the whole form, I figure out what it means, I do all of the parts, and then I don’t have to redo it later. If you can do the job well the first time, you don’t have to redo it.

Joseph: It’s really interesting to hear, and it’s also good to get a glimpse into what’s been working for you. I definitely want to hear more about V-Life, Kelly. I know this is just kind of in its infancy right now, but what are you up to right now with V-Life?

Kelly: V-Life is a lifestyle wellness education business that my husband and I have just recently inaugurated, started out.

Joseph: Congratulations.

Kelly: Thank you very much. Very exciting.

We are really going to be aiming our focus at corporations in this area that want to provide wellness programs for their employees. We’re going to be educating people about the connection between nutrition and exercise and health in a very practical way with a lot of videos and things that we get to show people, food demonstrations. We can also do that for individuals, personalized nutrition assessments, recipes or menu development for families or businesses. We spent probably 8 to 10 years figuring that out for ourselves, so we want to share that with people.

Joseph: I have to admit. I am not a vegan, but last week, my wife and I actually went on this detox vegan diet for one week. I tell you what – it was a struggle for me. Do you have one go-to vegan either recipe or favorite food for what I’ll call the reluctant vegans out there who are still eating meat and animal products?

Kelly: We do a lot of beans, lentils, which is something that I didn’t eat much before I became vegan.

Joseph: I heard those are great for you.

Kelly: They’re really, really nutritious, superfast, easy to cook, and they have a little more of a meaty texture when you mix them into things.

The V in V-Life stands for ‘vibrant,’ so our little tagline is Your Path to a Vibrant Life. The idea is not that we’re out there to convert everyone to being vegan. We actually just want to inform people about the relationship between nutrition and wellness. If that just means getting closer to health and closer to optimal health by making a few different changes, that’s what we’re going to help people achieve.

Joseph: If people want to learn a little bit more about how they can lead a path to a vibrant life, where would you suggest they go or how could they learn a little bit more about what you’re doing or the types of programs that could help them make these little steps to improve their lives?

Kelly: We are on Facebook at Facebook.com/AustinVLife. Also, the CHIP Program, the Complete Health Improvement Program, is the educational tool that we’re going to be teaching. That website is CHIPhealth.com.

Joseph: Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. It’s really inspiring to hear your story of leaving something stable behind to pursue something that you find a lot of passion in. I’m just excited to see how this all turns out for you. I definitely wish you the best in your culinary journeys.

Kelly: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me, and good luck to all of your folks out there who are considering making that change. It’s worth it.

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Many of you had told me that hearing other people’s stories about career change can be incredibly helpful, motivating, and inspiring. I’ve always found that learning from others can be a great way to catalyse the changes you want to make in your life. When I thought about how best to curate these stories, I decided the most useful way for you to learn from people, is to hear directly from them. So I’m launching a podcast that profiles people who have made career changes.

Career Relaunch is an inspirational podcast that helps you navigate the ups and downs of a career transition. Each episode features informative, insightful interviews with people who have stepped off the beaten path in their careers to pursue more meaningful work. Learn from their unconventional career experiences and gain courage from their brave decisions. Changing careers can be daunting, and my guests are here to provide advice, companionship, and clarity as you relaunch your own career.
Check out my free Career Hub for more helpful career change resources. You can also meet the team behind Career Relaunch.

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Listen to other episodes

Pursuing hobbies and interests outside of our daily work can be incredibly beneficial for our personal and professional growth. Hobbies can help us relax and reduce stress, increase creativity and productivity, and even open up new opportunities and networks. However, it can be difficult to make time for hobbies when we are busy with work, family, and other responsibilities.

Jenny Goh, a former conference event planner turned IT firm manager discusses the unique role transitional jobs play in your career and how side activities outside of work can be so useful to pursue.

In episode 92 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, I’ll also share my thoughts about how hobbies have influenced my own life and career during the Mental Fuel® segment.

Key Career Takeaways

1. Admitting your own limitations and weaknesses can help you to re-evaluate your priorities and goals, and open up new opportunities for you to pursue something you might be more passionate about or better suited for.
2. Having a hobby or passion project that you look forward to outside of work can help recharge your batteries and give you the energy and perspective you need to tackle the challenges at work. There will be a day when you aren’t working in your current job anymore.
3. Learning from the successes and failures of others, as well as listening to the advice and guidance of mentors and peers, can help us navigate the professional world and make informed decisions about our own careers.
4. If you feel you’ve learned and given all you can in your current role, you should consider seeking new opportunities to continue your personal and professional growth.

Listener Challenge

During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I invited you to pursue a new hobby this year. Perhaps an interest of yours that you’ve always thought about investing more energy into but just haven’t made the time for. Allow yourself the freedom to do something you think would be fun.

This means regularly dedicating time to hobbies. Could you spare an hour on the weekends? Or even just 30 minutes one evening a week? Schedule this time into your calendar like you would with any other important task.

Episode Chapters

• 00:00:00 – Overview
• 00:01:07 – Introduction
• 00:03:03 – Chat with Jenny Goh
• 00:40:00 – Mental Fuel
• 00:48:00 – Listener Challenge
• 00:49:33 – Wrap Up

About Jenny Goh, Product & Scrum Master

Jenny Goh initially thought she would become a scientist, so she spent her university days studying biology and heading down a research path. But when she was working toward her graduate degree, she realized that a career in research wasn’t what she really wanted and maybe wasn’t her natural forte. So, she started soul searching and exploring things like event planning, and eventually landed roles working in IT for companies like IBM.

Now, as a Project Manager and Scrum Master at Accenture, she’s hoping to use the skills and knowledge she’s gathered over the years to hopefully help and inspire others in their careers.

Her hobby of learning ballet on the side at the Singapore Ballet has had a direct impact on her perspectives when she’s at work. So I wanted to get Jenny onto the show to not only explain her career transition but also to share her thoughts on the importance of feeding your interests outside of work.

Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

• Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers.
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Thanks to Harmoni for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast

Thanks to Harmoni Design for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. The Harmoni Standing Desk offers a smarter, healthier way to work with its simple design that fits into any workspace. It’s the standing desk I’ve used myself since 2020, and Career Relaunch® podcast listeners can get 15% off any Harmoni order by visiting CareerRelaunch.net/Harmoni and using discount code RELAUNCH when you check out.

Interview Segment Music Credits

• Podington Bear – Fluorescence
• Podington Bear – Pulsars
• Uniq – Art of Silence
• Rand Aldo – Offline
• Ever so Blue – Dvala
• Podington Bear – Gears Spinning

Episode Interview Transcript

Joseph:  Okay. Hello, Jenny. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show.

Jenny: [03:09] Hi, Joseph. Thank you for having me here.

Joseph:  I am really happy that we are finally able to do this. You and I first cross paths on Medium actually, and I know we’ve been trying to record this for quite some time. What are you up to right now in your career in your life? What’s been keeping you busy?

Jenny: [03:25] I’m currently working on a government project here as a scrum master. I’m a deputy project manager helping to manage the day-to-day progress of the project. Basically, running the project for the client. Making sure it meets their timeline and expectations. I’m busy with work, and I’m also busy with moving to a new place. These two activities have taken up the main bulk of my time.

Joseph:  Now, you’re based in Singapore. Can you tell me a little bit about where you live there and what your neighborhood’s like? Just so we get a sense of where you are there in Singapore.

Jenny: [04:03] I think most of our listeners probably know that Singapore is small. I live in what we call a township that’s called Serangoon. It’s a rather mature and old estate, but very developed. You can just stay here you don’t need to go out of this little township and you can get everything here. If you’ve been to Singapore, it’s not like an orchard or any downtown place. But it’s just a very neighborhood place that has everything. I like it here. It’s very crowded, but I like it because it’s very convenient. I live just five minutes away from the train station. I’ve been staying here for three years now, and I’m going to move next month.

Joseph:  Where are you originally from, Jenny? I know you haven’t always lived in Singapore.

Jenny: [04:57] I was born in Malaysia. I was raised there. And then, I moved to Singapore when I was 19. I have since then spent 20 years here.

Joseph:  Final thing before we go back in time and talk about your first role as a computer engineer. I know one of the reasons why we haven’t been able to record this for some time is that you’ve been struggling a little bit with COVID. I was wondering if you could just tell me about what impact COVID has had on your life, both health-wise and also just personally.

Jenny: [05:30] I just caught COVID about a month ago. Actually, around five weeks. I was one of those people who had really serious symptoms, right? Not just asymptomatic, you can just chill out at home, right? I had high fever for three days. I’m nursing a persistent cough. It’s been five weeks. People would say that’s almost a long COVID. I think that has had a significant impact in my life because I’ve been starting to think like, “Should I maybe consider seriously this work-life balance thing?” Not that I’ve never thought about it before, but that makes me even more conscious about my life because I’m struggling to get back to my physical activities because I’m quite active. But I have to cut my exercises by half.

Joseph:  Thank you so much for doing this. I know you’re not fully recovered. I appreciate you squeezing this in as you’re trying to recover. I just hope you end up getting better soon. We’re going to come back to some of the importance of physical activity to you and your life toward the end when we talk about ballet.

I was wondering if we could, first of all, just go back in time. I know you haven’t always been in your current project manager role. Could you take me back in time and tell me about what you think you wanted to become when you grew up and what you ended up doing as your first role when you finished up in university?

Jenny: [06:56] When I was young, I went to maybe grade 7 or 8. At the time, you know when we started having internet, I thought it was cool. I thought I wanted to be a software engineer or computer engineer, right? But in my last year in high school, I discovered genetics. I thought, “Hey! That’s actually way more interesting.” At that time, there was a boom in the biomedical industry. I was getting a lot of influence.

When I was choosing what to do in university, I received two offers. One is engineering, the other one is life sciences. After a whole realm of struggle, I decided to choose life sciences. I devoted the first about eight years of my life to it. Although, I’m doing something vastly different now. I would say that genetics, to a larger extent, biology is still my favorite.

Joseph:  How did you know whether you wanted to stick with biology versus going and trying something different?

Jenny: [08:06] My career is slightly different. I mean, even if you study biology, you could pursue many career paths, right? You could be a high school teacher. You could be a lecturer in the college. You could also be a researcher. You could be a salesperson, what have you, right? I originally chose the academic path. I thought I would become a researcher, and maybe someday teach at a university. But the path as a researcher is not for the faint-hearted. After some years down the road, I realized that I am not super good at it. I love it, but I’m not going to excel in it. It was actually when I was halfway pursuing my doctorate and I was having this self-reflection, “Should I continue or not?”

Joseph:  How did you know that you weren’t good at it, just out of curiosity? It takes a lot to admit that we’re not good at something that we’ve already invested a lot of time into.

Jenny: [09:08] As a student, as a researcher, you do need to submit some papers. You need to publish your paper. In comparison to my peers, I was struggling with it. I couldn’t meet my own expectations, or the benchmark that I have, this is where my peers are at, I’m supposed to be here around the same time, right? But I know that I can’t. At that point, I knew that I wasn’t going to do very well in it. I spent a lot of time in the lab. A lot of it is animal studies, right? You’re exploring the project by yourself, and by nature, I’m a sociable person. After some time, I feel like, “Maybe I actually prefer a job that has more interactions with people. And you’re right, it takes a lot to admit that you’re not good in something but once you are able to do that, you open up more opportunities for yourself.

Joseph:  I can’t remember if I told you this, Jenny, but I was also one of those students in university who studied the pre-medical sciences. One of the courses I had to take was biology, a full-year biology course. I ended up doing a fellowship at a medical school focused on pharmacology research. And so, I was spending all my days, and nights sometimes, in the lab literally pipetting different substances and materials. I spent most of my time counting cells versus actually interacting with people.

Jenny: [10:48] There we go.

Joseph:  Yeah. I mean, like you, I just felt like, “This is just not me.” I remember not being very good at it. I remember when we had to present our results to the faculty, I was the only person whose results didn’t turn out the way that I had hoped they would have turned out.

So, how did you then go from working in that field into what you ended up doing next? Which I understand was event planning, as a bit of a transition into the next chapter in your career.

Jenny: [11:20] I mustered up all the courage and I told my supervisor, “Look, I’m sorry but I just wanted to graduate with master’s degree.” And then, I was thinking then, “Now what?” I have a lot of options, but I may not have the necessary qualifications to do those jobs, to pursue those opportunities. I started thinking about what I wanted to do, what I where are my interests. I thought that technology is the second thing that I like. But at that time, IT was taking off. I didn’t have the necessary qualifications. I don’t know how to get in there. Then, I thought, maybe then I should just continue looking for jobs in life sciences but it was tough. Either you graduated with just a bachelor’s and you take up some jobs, or you have to have a doctorate degree. And then, you can go to work for pharmaceutical companies, and then you have a decent job and good opportunities. But just having a master’s degree is hanging there. I struggled to look for jobs.

At that time, this event company, they were looking for someone with life sciences background to plan the program and events for life sciences. They offered me the job and I took it up because I was looking for jobs for a few months already.

Joseph:  Did you feel like this is where you wanted to end up in event planning, or did you kind of feel this was a transitional role? I’m just curious because sometimes what comes up with people who are trying to make a career change is they wait for the perfect role, or I guess in your case maybe you wait for the right pharmaceutical job to come up, or the right IT job to come up. How did you come to the decision to take this event planning job, which sounds very different from what you had originally thought to do?

Jenny: [13:17] It really was a transition because I live here by myself. Ever since I graduated from university, I stopped asking for help from my parents, right? I really struggle for a few months and I couldn’t get a job. I had some friends who helped me, and I have plenty of friends willing to refer me to jobs but it would be working in the laboratory again. I already knew I don’t want to go down that path. I’m not a super ambitious person, but I do wish to achieve something in my life. I know that continuing to work as a research assistant or associate in a lab is not what I want. So, I turned out their offers. There were people who helped me. Those are not jobs that I want. As I was struggling, well you need to pay the bills, right? So, I got this job, and I thought, “Why not I just take the job?” and I slowly figure out where to go from here.

Joseph:  How was that being in that event planning job for you? Knowing that it wasn’t maybe ultimately what you wanted to do the rest of your life, but that it was giving you a steady pay check and something to keep yourself busy as you tried to figure out what to do next.

Jenny: [14:39] That is a very different industry, I must admit. When I first started, I got a culture shock. I mean, don’t get me wrong, there were a few people who had the same background as I do. Like, they were life sciences graduates but everybody else did not have a life science graduate. That was my first job outside of the academic world. So, it was a big culture shock. I have not really been selling things before. But as an event planner, you kind of have to sell your event and I didn’t know how that worked.

And then, the people there, they come from very diverse backgrounds. I actually felt that I was quite lucky because I met some really good colleagues there, and we still remain as friends today. This was about around 10 years ago. Everything felt like, “Oh, my God. This is how things work,” you know. It was a small company, very intimate. I had two events planning jobs. And then, the second one was also a medium-sized company. I learned a lot about the events planning industry. That made me realize that, yes, it truly is just a transition job because it really is not what I want to do.

Joseph:  What steps then did you take to figure out what it was that you did want to do while you had this holdover events planning job?

Jenny: [16:08] I did continue to apply for pharmacology jobs. Although I know that the chances may be slim, a lot of job openings that was put up, it’s either a clinical trial, kind of associate coordinator, or it’s a lab assistant, or you need to have a Ph.D. I wasn’t really interested in those. But I also thought that, “Okay. I can’t just get stuck.” I thought that I need to look for an opening to technology companies. So, I started looking through jobs trying to see where I can go. How do I get an opening and join? After some searching, I found a job. So, my ex-boss offered me a position at IBM. That’s how I ended up there.

Joseph:  Just to switch gears here. Now, you have entered into the IT sector or the tech sector, and this is now I’m assuming very different from what you were doing before. Working in a lab, using your biology knowledge, eventually moving into the event space, but still, it being related to your background in the sciences. It sounds like this was a complete departure from what you were doing before. How was that transition for you moving into IBM?

Jenny: [17:31] That was my first MNC job, and I was also culture shock and blown away by many things. Because I never worked in a huge company like that. And, you’re right, a technology as big as that, they tend to move really fast. I don’t know anything at all beyond what I read from the newspaper. But I really wanted to start something.

I must admit that other than feeling scared, I also felt insecure. I wasn’t sure if I can keep my job. There was also the constant fear that I wasn’t good enough, I wasn’t learning fast enough. And then, given that I got a job in an IT company now, how do I move from here? I have already changed my job once. Like from life sciences to events planning, and from events planning, now to IT. I was determined to make it work.

Joseph:  Can you describe what it was like on a day-to-day basis for you to be in this tech job versus what you’re doing before in biology? I’m most interested in just hearing about how you knew that this was not just a repeat situation of being in a lab, where you were completely misplaced but that this was just challenging, and that it was something that you’re going to work on and continue to progress in.

Jenny: [10:07] In biology — and you definitely understand it because we came from a similar background, right? A lot of things are evidence-based. But, outside of science, you don’t need to be evidence-based. If you end up in a sales job, you can say anything you want. I admit that it was tough for me because I have the tendency to ask, “Why are people doing this?”

To me, the world was either black or white because science is either you can back it by facts or if the fact says it’s wrong, it’s wrong. I struggle a lot with that. The difference is that in science, it was difficult. You were always searching for an answer but you have to use some kind of evidence to prove it. You have failures every day because your results just don’t turn out the way you want, right? And then, you just keep repeating that.

But on the other hand, the job that I first started, I was hired as a proposal writer in IBM. Most people are bad at writing. They wanted someone who could understand what the solution is and put it in a very layman’s manner, coming up with certain creative materials to present to the clients to help them understand better. So I was doing a lot more creative thinking work versus the science work, where you need to be very factual.

Joseph:  The other question I have for you about your time at IBM, before we move into your most recent transition into Accenture, is just what life was like for you in the tech industry as a whole? Working in a very fast-moving industry, work-life balance, the intensity of the job. Can you give a glimpse into what that was like for you?

Jenny: [20:57] Joining IBM provided me with a very good starting ground. Because the job there, it’s busy but it’s not as hectic as my current job. It provided me with a good starting point you know slowly learning the ropes. I was lucky. I do have to say I was always very lucky to have very great and supportive colleagues and mentors. That played an important part in my growth. After that, I transitioned into different roles at IBM, and it just got more and more hectic from there.

About a year ago, I joined Accenture. This is by far, my most hectic job. We’re talking about “hectic” as in you go down, you start working, and you have time for lunch. But you don’t really have time to browse Facebook, google for Black Friday sales.

Joseph:  You’re working.

Jenny: [21:58] You don’t have time for that, yeah.

Joseph:  Yeah, you’re focused. You are 100% on, and you do that five days a week, sometimes more. How have you coped with that pace of life at work? The intensity, the non-stop nature of it.

Jenny: [22:17] I joined at a time when most of us still have to work from home. It was hectic right from the get-go. The first day I joined, I haven’t gone to my orientation, and there were people already asking me to join project meetings. I was like, “What? It’s just my first day! I don’t even know what’s happening. I don’t even know anyone.”

But because I was working from home, I was still able to steal some time away to do exercise because I’m physically active. That helped a lot with the balance. And because when we work from home, we don’t need to take any public transport. That cut down on the transit time. So, I managed to sleep a little bit more. That kind of helped in the transition to my current project because now, I need to travel to the customer’s office every single day.

Joseph:  I didn’t ask you this before, Jenny, but how did you go from IBM to Accenture? Is that a move that you had thought to make from tech into consulting, or how did that come about for you?

Jenny: [23:20] I was already in my sixth year at IBM. Well, my last job there right I had an incredible career. I really, really liked it. IBM, at that time, made a huge move, they acquired another company. And then, their whole strategy changed a little bit. To be honest, I don’t see where I fit in in that change, I felt like I needed more aggressive growth because I felt I kind of stagnant a little bit. I was actually promoted about half a year before I joined Accenture. I was very grateful to my ex-boss, he trusted me and that was very important to me.

But I envisioned that I could stay in this role for a few years. And the growth may not be what I really want. Because I started in IT a lot later than my peers, right? A lot of my peers, they are already directors. They’re doing so much better. Well, of course, that’s the saying that you don’t compare yourself with others, you compare with yourself but I still want to do well. I wanted to do something for myself. So, I didn’t want to stay in a job where I felt that I may not have the kind of growth that I wanted. I started looking out, and I had a few offers and decided to choose Accenture because I believe that it’s the next best place for me to grow.

Joseph:  I do want to talk with you about this work-life balance topic and some of the activities that you’ve engaged with outside of work. But before we go to that, I did have one more question about this transition from IBM to Accenture. You mentioned that you had a few different job offers on the table. One of the topics that have been coming up recently in the context of whatever you want to call it, quiet quitting or cushioning, is to while you’re working full time, go ahead and proactively look for roles or network with recruiters, what was your philosophy on that?

Jenny: [25:26] If you felt like you were not being treated correctly, and going through HR is not the route that you want to take, then I would suggest that you do need to take that either quiet quitting part, or for some people, they just quit. They don’t even quiet quit, they will quit without a job.

But suppose, if it’s just a very hectic job or maybe you’re just currently stuck in a project that you don’t like, things like that. Or, maybe right now, you don’t like some of the people that you’re working with, but there are the other half of the people that you like, then don’t make the decision of quitting so easily.

I was very fortunate because I had at one point, wanted to quit what I was doing. But I had a very, very good mentor. He gave me this very good advice that I gave to others right now, too. If you felt that you have learned everything you need from your current role or current company, then it’s time to go. But if you felt like you still have so much more to learn, it’s okay, just bite the bullet. As long as people are abusive to you. Just bite the bullet even if it’s difficult because you’re not going to regret it.

Joseph:  One other thing I wanted to chat with you about, which I know you mentioned to me the first time we connected, was some of the activities outside of work that has helped play a role in your career change journey. Can we talk about ballet for a second here, and just explain how that has come up in your life and what role it’s played for you? Not only in your current job but also as you think about career transitions in general.

Jenny: [27:16] It was my close friend who introduced ballet to me. I went for a trial class. I thought, “That was good.” And then, after that, I continued. I have since learned ballet for some three years. Sometimes, you’re so busy that I felt I cannot breathe. It was at ballet that I felt time just stopped. I could focus on myself.

But more importantly, also my classmates, they come from different backgrounds. You know, women and men of all shapes and sizes. But everybody was just there to pursue one thing that they love. There was no judgment. Like, even if you can’t make a good pirouette, a good turn, no one’s going to laugh at you. Everyone is very encouraging. Having that safe space knowing that I could make mistakes and still feel happy about it, it’s encouraging. It has helped me cope with the stress at work a lot.

Joseph:  When we spoke before also, Jenny, you told me about a moment when something happened at work that it came from somebody ridiculing something that you had done, and that hit you pretty hard. How did ballet then help you deal with it? Or was it ballet kind of that sanctuary for you?

Jenny: [28:44] I was ridiculed pretty badly at work one day. I felt like, “Oh, my! I probably should quit this job.” I can’t work with people who are so abusive in the languages that they use. It was a Friday, I remember. I always have classes after Friday, after work. So, I went to my class. I must be honest that I was actually at the brink of crying. I thought, that was really terrible. I felt humiliated.

But when I went dancing, I was just letting it all go. I was very focused on my dancing. I was reassured by my teacher that it’s okay to make mistakes. I felt that that kind of assurance, plus seeing how people put in so much effort. Even if they can’t do it, it is never discouraged. And, of course, dancing to classical music, it lifted my spirit a lot. Subsequently, when I returned home, I felt that my heart was a lot lighter.

Joseph:  The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up, talking a little bit more about the performing arts is to first of all talk about some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your career journey. As I’m listening to you describe this story, Jenny, going from the tech industry into what sounds is an even more intense industry at times in consulting an Accenture, it’s stressful to make a career switch. It is very stressful to have an intensive job.

Sometimes, what we can do is we can — or at least, I find myself doing this. I kind of debate whether or not I should invest my time that is already quite limited into a side activity that’s different from my day job, and maybe doesn’t have a direct impact on my ability to excel at my day job. What have you learned from engaging in something like ballet that is very unrelated to work? I’m just curious about what you’ve learned from that.

Jenny: [31:00] Of course, there’s no direct relation because I’m doing IT. People would think that, “Why don’t you put your time into good use like learning how to write in another programming language or earn another certificate?” I’m doing that, too. But I felt like, you know, one day, we’re not going to be doing this job anymore. There will be a day when we get old, we want to retire and we want to have something when we grow old. It’s important to develop a hobby, something outside of your life because you’re not just defined by your job. You may be spending 90% of your time at work but that’s not just who you are. that’s just one part of you.

I have observed so many people older than me, and I’m extremely lucky that I get to learn from them. I have some classmates of more than 60 years old in my class that’s so amazing. I felt that, even though it’s not directly related, it has been teaching me to so many other life lessons. You don’t have to always do things that can help you excel in your career in terms of technical skills.

I’m a manager myself. When I talk to my younger colleagues, they want to help, they wanted some reassurance. I could always apply some of these philosophies that I learned from ballet, share these lessons, or share these things with my colleagues. I felt that that helps you rethink how you want to live your life. It’s important to have a work-life balance. You can’t just work all the time. Even developing hard skill sets. I would consider that, I mean to me, it’s part of life. Of course, there are people who see that as a hobby. But I just wanted to do something different.

Joseph:  When you look back on your career change, Jenny, what’s something that you wished you had known that you now know?

Jenny: [33:14] I honestly wish that there was someone there to kind of share some tips and advice with me. I did enjoy my short time at events planning but I felt also that it was kind of like I took a detour. It’s that maybe if there was someone that I could consult, maybe I would have reached here a little bit earlier. Maybe I could avoid some pitfalls. I’m still grateful of the hard lessons that I learned, but I may not necessarily want others to repeat my mistakes.

Joseph:  Final question for you before we wrap up. Having been through this career change, what’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself along the way?

Jenny: [34:05] Growing up, I always thought that I was somewhat overconfident, somewhat arrogant. But, when I decided to do the career switch, I realized that I do have the humility to accept that I just cannot do well in something. I found a lot of peace in accepting that I’m just not good at some things, and that’s perfectly fine because I’m good at other things. That discovery has helped me to cope with a lot of things, because some of my superiors, supervisors, managers, they are actually younger than me. I don’t feel bad at all about taking instructions from them or learning from people younger than me. I realized that I’ve developed that humility that even people a lot younger than us always have things to teach us. That’s very important to me.

Joseph:  That’s good. That demonstrates how self-assured you are right now. Because a lot of times one of the reasons why we don’t accept advice from others or don’t want to have advice from people perhaps, especially those people who are younger than us, is because we’re not feeling super confident ourselves or we’re a little insecure ourselves about something. So, I think that demonstrates a real maturity on your part as you’ve gone through your journey here.

What message would you want to share about performing arts in general, especially there in Singapore?

Jenny: [35:41] I know you have listeners, a lot of listeners from Singapore as well, and maybe in the larger part of Asia, right? I do hope that you know whoever is listening to this would be more supportive towards performing arts. I mean being of Asian descent, our Asian parents, or even Asian parents, in general, are not that supportive of their children pursuing performing arts. Therefore, artists, they’re not paid very well and they don’t get a lot of funding.

What I hope, and it’s something that I hope I can do in the near future, once I get used to all this hectic life sort of stabilize because I think I’m still trying to stabilize things, I do hope to put in more time to volunteer and help to grow the awareness in performing arts. I hope that more people would come to support the performances. Be it buying a ticket, watching a performance, or even coming to volunteer, donating. There’s a lot of help that is needed for performing arts, especially in a country like Singapore, where people value other white-collar jobs. I hope people would start understanding that you can have a very successful life and career in performing arts.

Joseph:  Is there any particular performing arts entity there in Singapore you want to give a shout-out to?

Jenny: [37:16] Yes, definitely. I’m attending adult ballet classes at Singapore Ballet. I’m extremely grateful to my teachers there. I hope that whoever’s listening to this can buy a ticket, support their performances. I know my teachers, they are always very encouraging. I know that they could use a bit more support. I want to thank Singapore Ballet for being part of this important journey of my growth and self-discovery.

Joseph:  Alright. Well, thank you so much, Jenny, for telling me more about your transitions from biology, to IT, to then project management, and also just the importance of your non-work activities and how those things have played such a big part in your own philosophies and perspectives. It was very interesting hearing about how the performing arts had been a big part of your journey. I just wanted to wish you the best of luck with your role at Accenture and also your ongoing ballet classes. I also hope you make a full recovery from COVID soon. Thanks for being on the show.

Jenny: [38:19] Thank you for inviting me, Joseph. I do hope that by sharing my journey, I can help a lot of people who have doubts about changing careers or who are feeling unsure of where they are at the moment. I hope to be able to provide that little confidence and maybe just a little bit of positivity in their life. What you’re doing is meaningful. I would continue to support your podcast, and also wishing you all the best.

Joseph:  Thank you so much, Jenny. I appreciate it.

Our guest on Career Relaunch® podcast episode 91 is a lawyer turned workplace wellbeing consultant Tom Keya. If you’re like me, your stereotypical image of lawyers may involve fast-track professionals in slick suits working at a high-rise office in a big city, working with high-profile clients, and earning lots of money—the kind of stuff you might see on TV.

Tom’s career in a law firm kind of started like this. He lived and breathed the life of a high-flying lawyer in central London, earning a high salary with big bonuses, and in many ways, he felt like he was at the top of his game.

However, the pressure of being a high-performing lawyer began to whittle away at his mental and physical well-being. He lost his health, his purpose, and self-worth by ruthlessly trying to succeed in an intense industry. After eventually suffering a complete mental breakdown, he took a year-long career break and decided to stop practicing law entirely.

Tom discusses his vicious and dangerous spiral that involved drugs, alcohol, and pushing his body and life to the point of total collapse. He also explains the realities of corporate life in a big city and what he did to rescue himself from what became an unhealthy downward spiral. Finally, I’ll share my perspectives on how I think about where I want my career to head in the future during the Mental Fuel® segment.

Key Career Takeaways

1. Your job has a direct impact on your lifestyle. You must remain mindful of whether your work is taking your life in the direction you desire.
2. Hitting rock bottom often forces you to reassess who you are and what you want for your life and career. However, paying attention early on to any signs that suggest you’re headed in the wrong direction can help you avoid a lot of unnecessary pain.
3. Healing in the environment where you got sick is very difficult. At the same time, leaving even a bad situation behind can be quite scary. If an environment is unhealthy for you, you owe it to yourself to explore other avenues.

Listener Challenge

During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about  identifying what’s most important to you at work. Pinpoint three things most important for you to have in your professional life.

Then, think about how you want things to look across these priorities exactly one year from now. Decide which things you want to refrain from pursuing, to simply maintain as-is, or to proactively obtain. Then, shape your efforts and actions accordingly.

About Tom Keya, Workplace Wellbeing Consultant

Former lawyer Tom Keya is the owner and chief executive of a corporate wellbeing consultancy and employee wellbeing technology platform Soulh Tech, and a keynote impact investing speaker at the Impact 17+1 Club.

He now works with companies to monitor the health and happiness of their employees and improve employee well-being, happiness, and retention.

Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

• Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers.
• Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions.
• Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.
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Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
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Thanks to Grammarly for Supporting Career Relaunch

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Interview Segment Music Credits Episode Interview Transcript

Teaser (first ~15s): The mission to the top requires this much effort. And if you don’t do it, you won’t make it to the top. As you perform better, you’re rewarded better. As you work harder, you progress faster. No human being can sustain that level of energy.

Joseph: Okay, Tom. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is fantastic to have you on the show.

Tom: [03:56] It’s great to be here.

Joseph: Let’s start off. Before we dive into your career as a lawyer, and now, your focus on workplace well-being. Let’s talk a little bit about what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life. What is keeping you busy?

Tom: [04:12] First of all, thank you so much, Joseph, for inviting me on your podcast. I’m very excited to share my experience with as many people as I can. Presently right now, I’m working on a corporate well-being platform, as well as doing business development for a lot of professional services firms out here.

Fundamentally, what I do is I go to businesses and I carry out surveys of their staff. Not necessarily to teach them about stress, anxiety, or anything like that. The sort of usual stuff that people do to take a box. But rather to provide CEOs with a proper map of where their staff indexes as at a given time. And we do two types of surveys. The first one is, of course, one about the building. How people are feeling about being in the building. The second one is their mental health and how they’re feeling.

Separate to that and similar side, I work at Rothberg LLC, which is a professional services firm in Dubai. They do a lot of company formations in Dubai, as well as just general advice for companies and families that are here. I do a lot of business development for them.

Joseph: Very interesting. And it sounds like this well-being topic is extremely top of mind right now, especially post-pandemic or I guess, we’re currently still in the pandemic. But I know in most of the surveys I’m looking at, because I focus on career change, a lot of people are starting to look much more at emotional and physical well-being in the workplace. It sounds like you are in the right space at this moment in time.

Could I also ask, Tom, just a little bit about your personal background? I know you mentioned you’re in Dubai right now. Where are you from and where do you spend your time these days?

Tom: [05:49] I was raised in the UK. I’m ethnically Persian. But most of the time, I’m between the two countries. I’m in Dubai a lot longer than the UK, but I try and get to the UK at least one or two months a year just to carry on with what I’m doing in terms of mental health. And it’s very interesting you said that mental health is really in these days. I’ve been probably suffering from this for a good 15 years exactly.

Joseph: We will talk about that.

Tom: [06:15] And for the first five years, I’ve dedicated my life to it. So it was good to catch it right before the pandemic. And I think a lot of people these days are focused on mental health and well-being for two reasons. One, because of the pandemic and everything that arose from there. But also because working from home has now made the employers compete with the comforts of someone’s home. It’ll be interesting to both explore on this conversation.

Joseph: Let’s do this, Tom. Why don’t we first of all go back and talk about your former career as a corporate lawyer. Because I know you haven’t always been professionally focused on workplace well-being. But I know that you also dealt with some issues personally as you were going through your career journey. But why don’t we first of all just start with your career history. And could you just tell me about your time as a corporate lawyer, and then we’ll move forward from there?

Tom: [06:58] There are two types of lawyers in the world. There are those that want to succeed in life and enter the city and play with the big boys, let’s say. And there are those who seek justice for people. I was probably the former than the latter. My father died when I was very, very young. So financial security was very, very big on my mind.

So, I entered the city. I worked at a very good city law firm for I’d say around 12 years, give or take. I worked at the highest level in the sense that I worked through extremely long hours to become a partner in that business and lead effectively a subdivision, focusing on basically, fundamentally, banks and family offices.

Joseph: What kind of hours are we talking about here when you say you’re working pretty hard? Can you just describe like how many days a week? How many hours a day are we talking?

Tom: [07:47] If you want to succeed as a lawyer, you have to treat it like a lifestyle. It’s sort of impossible to treat it as a job. If you want to work 9-to-5, law is definitely not the job for you. So, give or take, 5 a.m. till about 10:30 p.m. was where my hours, give or take. We worked different time zones. I certainly had to get up quite early for my middle eastern clients. And then, you work throughout the day. Pretty much non-stop.

Joseph: Wow! Okay. And this is five days a week, six days a week?

Tom: [08:22] Five days a week, definitely. And then, over the weekend, you’d probably spend four or five hours. Either doing business development meeting some of the clients who can only meet each other on the weekend or more likely catching up on work to make your Monday morning just a little bit gentler.

Joseph: Rightly or wrongly, I guess my perception of the world of law is driven by A, my direct experience working with lawyers may be related to my business or maybe if I’m buying a house. But, probably more often than not, just kind of what I see on TV. And that may not be fair about, you know, “Law and Order,” “Suit.” Like how much do you feel — though, obviously, it’s not an accurate representation of the real world, but what were your perceptions going into law versus your direct experience as a lawyer?

Tom: [09:06] Your perception when you want to enter the legal career is that you’re going to be surrounded by very, very intelligent people. You’re going to be surrounded by academics. And, you’re going to be given these big complex problems to solve, and deals to close, and cases to litigate, and all of these wonderful things that rightly like yourself you see on TV.

The reality of it is markedly different in the sense that — and this is right across all law firms. I’m not particularly picking on one firm or the other. I’m specifically choosing the general market is that you’re going to be dealing with a lot of people who have a lot of personal baggage. You’re going to be dealing with a lot of people who, because their identities are surrounded by law that by being say, for example, a senior person within a team, they effectively treat it like a feudal kingdom.

And also, there’s a lot of just paper pushing, you know. As a junior lawyer, you don’t do anything interesting right up until probably about three years qualified. Until then, you write the bundling papers, or filling out forms, or taking notes.

Joseph: Okay.

Tom: [10:10] You’ll be lucky to get a letter in and out of there. In your image that I’m going to walk in, they’re going to give me all this stuff very quickly crushed when someone says, “There’s 60 boxes in there. I need you to review every single one of them and, hopefully, find one a document that I’m looking for;” which always ends up being on the 65th box, right towards the end. And you take your tie off, you pull up your sleeves, and literally, you’re in a basement and looking through these dirty, disgusting files. Of course, that gives away my age. I think a lot of things are done electronically, but the principle is the same.

Joseph: I’m trying to just imagine you in the basement, doing this as you describe “paper pushing.” What was running through your head at that moment when you started to realize that this was your reality? Did you start to think about doing something else, or did you continue to push forward? What was your MO at the time?

Tom: [11:00] One of the common things lawyers face is imposter syndrome. Because you sort of think, “I’m not good enough for this job.” Certainly, when you’re reviewing those boxes, you don’t feel imposter syndrome.

Joseph: I don’t think I can handle this.

Tom: [11:13] I think the shock that enters the mind isn’t so much about the work you’re doing. Now, you could be very lucky and end up working for a nice person within the team. You, as a junior lawyer, could walk in, there’s super nice guys like, “Look, dude. I’m really sorry to put you through this, but 60 boxes for you to review. Trust me, we’ll go for a beer on Friday. I’ll make it up to you. But I really need you to pay very close attention.” Of course, you do need to pay close attention. Law is a very hazardous job. You miss that document; your client could lose a multi-million-pound case. You end up giving your all at a tedious task.

But in my case, for example, I was quite unlucky in the sense that I ended up working with not-so-pleasant people. There was one person who was awesome that I worked with. But you’re told, probably in very demeaning ways, to do your job. You’re treated very, very harshly. And into that, that makes you reconsider whether you want to do this. Because when you speak to other trainees at other law firms, they’re like, “Oh yeah. There’s this guy. He’s so horrible. He threw a stapler at me,” you know. You’re like, “Wow! Compared to him, I’ve got it pretty good.” But if this is the best out of all my friends, do I really want to do this? But the financial security point that I mentioned earlier really requires one to sort of step in and just take it.

Joseph: Now, before we talk about what impact all this had on you, mentally and physically, I did have one question that you alluded to when we first spoke, which was a dynamic that I think exists in many corporate environments, which is that unless you’re at the top of the food chain in an organization, you’re investing a lot of energy to try to get to the top. Could you describe what your experience was in, not only climbing the corporate ladder but wanting to climb the corporate ladder within a law firm?

Tom: [12:52] Basically, top of the food chain is exactly the only place you’ll feel comfortable. Of course, that’s when imposter syndrome kicks in. But if you want to play it very rough, you would be doing the backstabby way of, you know, “I’m going to try and bury this guy so, in comparison, I look better.” I always do this analysis where I say, “Look, envy is when you look at someone and you want to be like them or better. Jealousy is when you look at someone and you basically say, ‘Oh my God! I want to take him down,’ because I’m never going to be as good as that person.” Most lawyers tend to be envious, not jealous. So, there isn’t that much backstabbing really going on.

But what you do is you effectively backstab yourself. In the sense that you know that, “Look, if I want to get to the next stage, I won’t do it as 9-to-5. So, I need to be at 8:00 till 6:00. And you get in at 8:00, and see a whole bunch of people who’ve been there already for two hours. You know, the two hours ahead of you. You’ve come in an hour early. So you’re like, “You know what? I need to come in three hours earlier.”

And it’s not so much they’re deliberately trying to take you down or anything. Nothing like that is happening. It’s just they’re saying, “Look, the mission to the top requires this much effort. And if you don’t do it, you won’t make it to the top.” And this happened with me towards some of my cohorts. In the sense that I went past a lot of people that were probably two or three years ahead of me when I first started. So the rewards are visible. As you perform better, you’re rewarded better. As you work harder, you progress faster. There is no lie in that in any, any law firm. Unless you work for a very, very small law firm where there’s only one partner.

Joseph: As I’m hearing this, Tom, what I’m envisioning in my mind is a super stressful environment. And I’m also feeling this real need to achieve, and excel, and accelerate in your career. I’d like to shift gears here now and talk a little bit about the personal impact this had on you, and how you dealt with this personally.

When I’m thinking about the pace of law as you’re describing it, can you explain to me, beyond the work itself, what were some of the steps that you took to just maintain that pace?

Tom: [14:56] No human being can sustain that level of energy. It doesn’t really happen. The way it starts normally is for your early 20s, you can keep up. For your early 20s, generally speaking, what you do is you throw yourself into the fire and you’ve got a lot of capacity. You smash it out. And on Fridays, because you haven’t done anything all week because you’ve just been working or trying to do business development in the evenings, certainly within the British culture, the only way forward is Friday drinks. And that’s something I celebrate. I still do every now and again. It’s quite fun.

Go to the pub, get a couple of drinks, then a couple more drinks, then a couple more drinks. Of course, what then happens is you wake up on Saturday feeling rough. And as you get older, that waking up on Saturday gets worse and worse and worse. And to be able to keep up at this pace, you don’t necessarily within that environment realize that you have developed a mental health problem in the form of OCDs, addictions, et cetera. You wake up one day and you’re like, “Look, I just can’t physically get out of bed. Oh, it might be too many drinks last night.”

And, eventually, at some point somewhere, someone said, “Look, you know something. You know that guy down the corridor who’s keeping up with you? You know, he’s actually on drugs.” He’s either taking Ritalin or whatever, and that’s why he’s going up. We’re trying to compete organically against someone so synthetic. It starts with having one coffee. And that’s why I sort of discourage people drinking coffee because that’s how it all starts. That’s with having one coffee to eight cups a day. Then it goes from eight cups won’t do it. So then, you start entertaining other things.

I’m not saying that happens to everyone. But what I’m saying is when you’re exhausted and drinking tea or coffee is not keeping you awake, you then eventually turn to drugs. And I’m talking, obviously, very serious drugs here. And it comes to a Friday where you’re just completely drained, you can’t physically lift yourself, your friends are all like, “Tom, let’s go out for a couple of drinks.” And you’re like, “I just can’t do this.” And of course, what then happens is someone gives you something and suddenly you get on it, “Let’s go have fun!”

And what you’re basically doing here is you’re replacing happiness with fun. You equate fun being happiness. You’re like, “As long as I’m out on Friday until 4 a.m. in the morning, that means I’m enjoying my youth.” That’s what you basically start to think. And the next thing you know, that becomes almost habitual. It becomes a thing that, “Look, I can push it to the nth degree, but I know I’ve got something that can help me push it even further.” And that’s exactly where it goes wrong. That’s exactly when you’re like, “I’m unstoppable. I’m Immortal. I’m doing all these wonderful things.”

And, actually, you don’t realize this. You’re opening yourself up to effectively hell. Drugs and alcohol are a huge part of the city. And I think anyone who doesn’t talk about this openly is doing disservice. They’re not raising awareness of what is actually going on on the ground, and that’s just the fact.

Joseph: Just to get specific here, what kind of drugs are we talking about here and how long were you on these drugs for?

Tom: [17:49] For two years, I was probably experimenting with different drugs before I had a complete categorical breakdown.

Joseph: What? We’re talking cocaine? Are we talking —

Tom: [17:58] This is a typical example. For example, you decide that you want to go away for the weekend. And the way it really works is you work, you beast it, right until Friday evening. Okay? And now, you decide to take a flight to Ibiza to party with your friends. Because as I said earlier, what you’re doing is you’re equating fun with happiness. You’re basically saying, “As long as I’m partying, I’m happy.” You’re not saying, “happiness with everything around me.” Sort of like trying to run away. Sort of like trying to escape the reality of what you’re facing.

In that regard, you say great to seek this unbelievable happiness. I am going to stay awake. So you land in Ibiza, and the first thing someone does is gives you some coke. We take that. That helps you stabilize. And now, you’re going to the party where everyone’s just drinking MDMA. And what means sort of started accidentally. I went to Ibiza with a bunch of guys, and I didn’t know what was going on. And one of them gave me a bottle of water, and I drank it, and I was able to keep up for the entire two days. And then, someone said, “By the way, the water you drank was actually drugs. It was MDMA.”

Joseph: Okay, Tom. So at the risk of coming across as a bit naive and sounding like I’ve lived in a bubble my whole life. As someone myself who has never used illicit drugs or been around illicit drugs, or even seen that many drugs in my life, could you give me a sense of exactly how pervasive drug usage was amongst the people around you?

Tom: [19:24] Do a sample test of anyone working in the city, anyone. And out of 100 people, give or take, 80 would test positive.

Joseph: Wow!

Tom: [19:34] I would be surprised if it’s less. There are a lot of people I know who don’t, of course. But at any given time, 80 of the people working in the city, within service square mile or Wall Street, will be on something for sure. Because you could receive an email now at 7:30 a.m. in the morning, by 8:15, you get a Whatsapp from a client saying, “Hey, did you receive my email?” By 9:15, they expect the draft back. By 11:00, you send it to the other side. By 3:00, they send the response back. I mean how do you keep up with that place?

Joseph: It’s incredibly quick, yeah.

Tom: [20:14] And you sacrifice. Obviously, you don’t want to be high while you’re working. But I’ll touch on what happens when you take drugs a bit later. If you’re high while you’re working, then you’re going to be making some bad decisions. But what basically happens is you’ve partied very hard on the weekend. And now, you’re stealing the pain. Because what drugs do is they take you up, and then you come crashing down. And what you’re dealing with now at this stage is the calm down. It’s the anxiety, the depression, and everything that has come with it.

Put on top of that, the stress and the pressures of the working environment. The bad boss who wants to screw you, who comes to the office drunk at lunchtime, screaming at everyone. So what you then do is you turn to your doctor for some sort of mental health medication, right? That will basically be something like Xanax. In order to calm you down so you don’t have a panic attack within your working environment. Mixing Xanax with alcohol and drugs means that you’re basically going down this spiral, or you’re going to end up making some huge mistakes or doing something wrong.

But while you’re in that mindset, while you’re in that mood, all you want to do is get rid of the hard competition. You don’t think about the impact this is going to have on your decision-making skills. And come what may, on Friday, you’re still getting calls from your colleagues saying, “Let’s go for a couple of drinks. We got to have a couple of drinks, but we got to close this;” or “Tom, I’m really sorry that I screamed at you. I’ll make it up to you over a couple of drinks.” So you see? It creates its own environment.

Joseph: Given the fact that it sounds like this behavior is quite normalized and quite common and acceptable in the industry, at what point did you realize that something had to change for you?

Tom: [21:59] I think it all happened around five years ago. And if I genuinely told you, I can’t remember a lot of what happened five years ago during that nearly a whole year. But, basically, I think I tried to resign twice. I made like a couple of mistakes, and I tried to resign. And at the time my workplace, I was billing them you know millions a year. They were making a lot of money for me, so they didn’t really care. And I was dissuaded from resigning. And then, I think I made a pretty major mistake. I mean my cognitive ability was awful.

Joseph: Related to a client? Related to a project?

Tom: [22:34] It was more like an internal mistake. But in law, the biggest fear you have is not necessarily your boss nor is it the client, it’s the regulators. Because the regulators are very aggressive. And just now, they’re beginning to get a grip on the mental health pandemic that’s happening in within the legal profession, very recently now. And this should have been handled maybe 15, 20 years ago. But I’m glad they’re getting a grip of it. But as soon as someone says, “I’m going to make a complaint against you,” that’s your entire career at that person’s disposal. The biggest fear is the regulator.

And I made a mistake it was a regulatory error for sure. And as soon as it landed and the firm realized, “Okay. Well, now, this could be an ‘us’ issue rather than just ‘him’ issue.” They basically wrote me a list of saying, “Look, you know, Tom, this is a serious mistake.” I resigned very shortly after that. But what happened was, in my mind, I had 12 years of my life I’d given to these guys. Made them so much money and got very little reward, if I may say, financially out of it. Career-wise, definitely right to the top; financially, not so much. And then, when I needed the most, they chewed me out and spat me up.

Okay. So that was the punch I saw not coming anywhere. Because I thought to myself, “No matter what happens, these guys are going to back me.” They’re going to be like, “Tom, we’ve got you. Don’t you worry about it. You’ve made some mistakes. Let’s meet up, fix it, and then figure out what we’re going to do with you after.” Instead, it was like, “You’re on your own. Good luck.” And I had a complete nervous breakdown. Now, when we say complete nervous breakdown, a lot of people think I was a little bit stressed, I couldn’t get up, no. I couldn’t get out of bed for a month. For a full month, I was flat on the ground. So I lost 11 kilos pretty much straight away. I almost became half the man I was before. And that’s when at last, I went into therapy.

And they diagnosed me with every single thing that I thought was perfectly normal. I was touching wood maybe 50 times a day thinking that’s normal. I couldn’t look at red post boxes. I thought, “Oh, that, I’m just scared about them.” OCD, like what are you scared about? Waking up in the morning with my heart racing, needing Xanax to calm it down. That’s not normal. You’re a guy in your 20s, you should not wake up at heart palpitations. You should not just be able to sleep for hours. You should not need drugs to party. You should not this and that. And suddenly, you begin to realize actually everything I’ve done, at least for the past seven years of my life, has been completely wrong. And that’s when I really woke up to it. That’s when I was like, “Okay. Well, this was a mistake. Let’s see what’s left of my life. Let me see what pieces I can pick up, and then figure out what I’m going to do next.”

Joseph: So you’re describing what I often hear from people may not be to this extreme, but there is a point where you hit rock bottom in your career and your life. And it forces you to then wake up, come up for air, and figure out what you want to do next. How did you go about figuring that out?

Tom: [25:31] The first thing was that I needed to close up whatever happened to my former workplace and get closure on it. So therapy was the first thing. And I say to people, “Look, sports and therapy. Sports, because your body and mind are connected. Therapy, because your body and mind are connected.” So when you go to therapy, you’re basically training your mind. You’re making it stronger.

Now, some people like to do meditation, phenomenal. No one on earth is going to tell you meditation doesn’t help. Plenty of studies that proved it. Buddhists have been doing it for thousands of years with wonderful effects. In fact, a lot of stuff you learn in therapy are about mindfulness, which has been in the Buddhist culture for thousands of years. So first, it was, “Let me just lift myself physically up and be able to be active again.” Which I did through therapy.

Joseph: How quickly were you able to get off of the drugs that were causing these highs and lows?

Tom: [26:20] Right. So the drugs were instant. Because when I went to my psychiatrist, he turned around and said, “There is absolutely no way I’m treating you if you’re involved in any of this stuff. You can’t touch this. This is going to kill you.” I thought that it was a drug that made me make the mistakes that I did. And in my psychiatrist now, I figured out actually no. The pressures in the work environment drove me to such a corner, alongside with my own personal ambition. I’m not saying that you go into the work environment, someone says, “You have to kill yourself,” no. Your personal ambition is a big part of what drives you. Where I needed a synthetic push. I needed something synthetic to sort of drive me forward.

He said, “Look, I’m going to have to put you on actual mental health medication just so I can reach into you and figure out what’s going on in there. Because right now, there’s just too many panic attacks happening.” And if anyone’s had a panic attack, it’s something that a lot of people just throw around because I just had a panic attack. In reality, a panic attack is this sort of feeling where you’re basically assuming you’re in the worst possible place imaginable. In my situation, I thought that someone’s going to come and take me away and lock me up somewhere. That was on my mind the entire time.

And then, I was put on mental health medication that allowed me to sort of lift myself up again through therapy. Then the challenge was, “Now that you’re a mental health medication, we need to get you off it now.” And that’s another journey of its own. So between my mental breakdown and me being able to get back up, I’d say there was probably about six months of work that was needed. They were like, “Okay. Well, look, I’m back. What’s left of my life? What have I got around me?” And that’s when you know the old saying, the tradition was saying, “Oh, yes! I know who my best friends are now. I know who’s my family. The value of family,” et cetera. I was very lucky enough with an amazing network and a wonderful family that I was like, “Okay. Well, let’s give this another go.”

Joseph: It sounds like the therapy was helpful, time was helpful. Just stepping back away from that high-pressure environment was useful. Was there anything that ultimately tipped the scales and opened your eyes to the idea of then helping set up law firms helping with business development? How did that open up for you?

Tom: [28:33] The thing that comes to mind is that this was entirely avoidable. I realized, again in therapy, that I could have quit a lot earlier, work in a much better environment or created a better environment, and not had to suffer the way I suffered. It’s that that drove me. The fact that everything I’ve been through was perfectly avoidable with the right advice and the right guidance.

Now, I’m not saying speaking to 22-year-old Tom, you could have persuaded him to work less. I don’t think so, and nor should you. But I think, with the right advice, you could persuade people to know the limits before they have the breakdown. To catch the signs early before things really, really, really mess up effectively. I think when I woke up after six months, I came to, fundamentally, I realized, “Look, none of this needed to happen. Okay. Well, how do I now give back? How do I make sure this doesn’t happen to anyone else?”

By the way, during this period, I was that Alpha guy. I was the guy that was like, “Look, who needs therapy? You know, get a couple of drinks, we’ll be fine.” And, suddenly, I realized one, the world didn’t end by me not practicing law. It seems as all the clients are fine. Two, my friends don’t like me less by me not being part of a large city law firm. My friends still like me for me. My family is still proud of me. When you realize that you’re like, “Okay. Well then, great! I can do other things. I can do wonderful things that doesn’t necessarily need this much pressure.”

Joseph: Before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, can you now tell me a little bit more about the work that you ended up deciding to pursue? And I suppose, I’m especially interested in understanding how you knew that you were going to be good at this, and how you knew that this was going to be the right path for you.

Tom: [30:22] I’d say to anyone looking for a career transition, “You’ll never know.” So don’t look around looking for something you’re absolutely quite categorically confident in. There are ways to ease yourself into it. So for me, one of my friends was setting up a law firm. So I went to him and I said, “Look, let me do the foundational elements. Let me try and help you avoid your firm fundamentally having something wrong with it by having people who could have mental health problems.”

And you know, I started handing out, really researching finding out, “Look, businesses are losing 25% of their productivity. Thanks to people who are suffering mentally.” You know you can bring in McKenzie, or PWC, BCG even to try and increase productivity by 25%. Or you can look after your staff, much more cost-effective, yes, and give you much more staff loyalty. So I started an experiment that happened with Barclay Road when I went in at the very foundational level. And I was like, “Look, I don’t want to practice law. I’ll do the business development elements. But, fundamentally, I want to be there for the staff. I’m want to talk to them about my experience. I want to make sure that the higher ambitious people so I can tell them how to use their ambition. And I would do that the help of a therapist.” On the mental health side, they’ll come in because I know a lot about mental health in the workplace, but I’m not a mental health expert.

So, I brought in the experts. I brought in the psychiatrists, the psychologists, the CBT specialists. And we started working on the staff. And the result was completely remarkable. When people were suffering during COVID, Berkeley Rowe’s profitability went up by 200%, something ridiculous. And that’s because the people were trained to handle tough situations. It wasn’t a stress management course, where when you get stressed, try allocating the top priority to the lower priority. Because I was so in it, and I knew all these mistakes that one could make. I would teach them to manage clients. I would teach them to manage their colleagues. And I would teach them to say “no.”

Joseph: Well, that’s a very interesting transition, Tom. And the last thing I was hoping to talk about before we wrap up with the mental health platform that you’ve recently launched, which I do want to come back to at the end. I am very curious to hear about some of the things you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. And the first question I have for you is just what you’ve learned about yourself along the way?

Tom: [32:46] The best thing I learned was that you can’t heal in the environment you got sick in. But that’s why I love your podcast because it’s about career change. It’s not about job change. And a lot of people I suppose think that, “Look, I hated working in this place. But if I move to that place, I’ll be better.” If you really love your work, you’ll never work again. If you really, really love your work, even in high-pressured environments, you can sort of find a way where you can find the stable route. But when you’re reaching breakdown level, that’s not a healthy environment for you. You need to get out as quickly as you possibly can.

The thing I learned was it’s a scary path to go down. Humans are animals of habits. You know what to do. You’ve been trained how to do it. You’re older now, “Oh, my God! How am I going to deal with the age difference? Am I going to earn less?” Et cetera. And I would tell people, “Look, what’s the trade-off?” We know that stress causes the worst possible health problems, we know that. We know that for a fact. So do you want to have this poison in you just for the sake of money? And I promise you, you spend all that money trying to treat yourself after. So what I learned was the pursuit of happiness is much more of a fun and adventurous journey than the pursuit of wealth. The weirdest thing is, as soon as you do that, you start making more money. For sure, without a doubt.

Joseph: Yeah, that’s really interesting, Tom. Because something you mentioned there about getting out of the environment that caused you to be sick. One of the questions that comes up a lot in the line of work that I do is from people who have this belief — and I suppose this is fuelled by just common wisdom that it’s much easier to find your next job when you’re currently employed than it is if you resign from your job that you don’t like, and then you’re unemployed then you try to find a job. What’s your perspective on that? And I suppose, I’m most interested in trying to get a sense of whether you felt like you could have healed if you just kept the stable full-time job while you’re trying to figure out what to do next.

Tom: [34:40] Each person is different, right? I had the luxury of not having a wife and kids. So I could “almost afford” to move back into my mom’s place and figure out the next step. I think, as with anything in life, imagine you’re removing a plaster from your injured finger, right? Pull it. There is no point doing it slowly. You’re just making the thing last.

And I think the best way to relaunch your career, the best way to change, is to put yourself in a very, very difficult spot. And that is quit your job. Now, you have no other option but to move. That environment has been fixed. That environment has made you want to go. No money is worth it. No one can pay me genuinely anything to go back into the environment ever again. I would say, “Do it. Instantly. Don’t wait.” Forget anxiety. Brilliant things happen when you’re stressed. Your creativity levels go up. Your thinking becomes sharper. Your mind becomes a lot more agile.

And I come across a lot of young people for like, “I’ve got this full-time job. I’m working on the start-up on the side.” I say to them, “Look, you’re in your early 20s, work on the start-up. Quit it. Make that start-up your only way out. And trust me, it’ll be a success.” But if you’re trying to put one foot in and the other foot out, you’re never ever going to leap. You’re going to pivot but never leap.

Joseph: What’s something that you wished people knew about climbing the corporate ladder that you now know?

Tom: [36:06] I started literally at the time when throwing staplers around the office was becoming taboo, just at the beginning. I still had a couple of staplers been thrown at me. I still had a couple of folders been thrown at me. I was well within that era where they could scream at you to the top of their lung, and you just have to sit there and take it. I don’t know whether that still exists. I haven’t worked in that environment that much anymore. The simple ability to not take that, I wish I knew at the beginning that just being completely loyal is not the answer. You work at a place for four years you get everything you want out of it. Now, if that environment is no longer healthy for you, experiment with the new one. You lose nothing as a result. You literally lose nothing if you just leave. And for me, I chose stability and loyalty over happiness, and a little bit of risk.

Joseph: A final question for you. You alluded to your 22-year-old Tom before, and I was curious. What you would tell him now about making a career change?

Tom: [37:06] Twenty-two-year-old Tom was an unstoppable beast. He wants to conquer the world. He wants to become super rich. He wants to have a business and that. The beautiful thing about your career change is that your ambitions never really die. You don’t have to completely kill yourself and become dull and some sort of middle manager somewhere stuck.

I would tell 22-year-old Tom, work for five years and set up your own business, that’s what I would say. Because I was very entrepreneurial. I’m still entrepreneurial, but I was raised within an environment where you’re told that the best possible outcome is being employed. I would say “no.” If you’re entrepreneurial, have a go at it yourself. Trust me, you’ll find amazing things once you start working for yourself. And I would tell him, “Jesus Christ! Look after your mental health.” I mean, if there was a me when I was young, and someone like me came to our office and he said, “Guys, this is how you avoid regulatory pitfalls. This is how you avoid having problems in your job.”

And the answer to that simply is look after your mental health. I’m not saying organize your documents adequately. I’m not saying prioritize this and that. I’m saying, “Are you waking up with a hard competition?” Yes, I am. Not good. Okay, resign. Period. Aggressively so. Are you having only four hours of sleep, and you’re stressed when you go to bed, and you’re stressed when you’re waking up, consistently over a month?

Because sometimes, just jobs are stressful. You’re going to be stressed for a month, that’s fine. But if it’s consistent, quit. Quit, straight away. You’re going to make a mistake. You’re going to do something stupid. Can you tell me that you can’t remember what happened last month in your 20s? Yeah. Okay, quit. When I go into businesses, I just tell the staff, “What’s not normal?”

And the weirdest thing is seeing these eyes just open when I’m talking about very broadly my experiences, suddenly you see stars in some of these people’s eyes. Because they’re like, “Oh, my God! I do that!” “Oh my goodness! I do that.” I’ve had so many people come to me saying, “Tom, I think I’ve got OCD.” And I’m like, “What do you do?” He was like, “Well, to make sure that the email doesn’t come back from the clients, I count to seven. And, usually, it works out well because seven is a lucky number.” I’m like, “That’s not normal.”

There have been times, genuinely, when I’ve done these talks and the person who wants to do the talk took me to one side and said, “I may not say these things. Because you know, at one point, I have to discipline my staff.” And I said to him, “Look, if you’re disciplining them the way I’m saying you are, then you need to change.” I see engagements from management and staff. A lot of people are understanding that being the boss doesn’t make you king, and being an employee doesn’t make you a peasant. We’re all in this together. So how can we get the best out of each other?

Joseph: Well, I’d love to wrap up, Tom, with what you are also focused on right now. I understand you have recently launched a mental health platform. And I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit more about Soulh Tech?

Tom: [39:49] The way Soulh Tech works, I go in and do talks for businesses about their mental health. And what we’ve done is we’ve plugged Soulh Tech in, which is a survey once a month, every Monday morning. Because, usually, people feel at their worst on a Monday morning. And after about six months, we produce this map to CEOs where we basically show them where their staff’s mental health is and has been for the past six months. And also, how the staff are interacting with the building.

In an environment where people are sort of beginning to either really take on working from home, or struggle with bringing people to the office, we give them an idea of where the staff is. And it’s great because we see how people are feeling and they’ll be able to action that before it’s too late.

Joseph: I am looking forward to hearing how that platform evolves. And I just wanted to thank you so much, Tom, for giving us a candid glimpse into your former life as a lawyer and how that has now evolved into your focus on well-being and the importance of pursuing happiness over everything else. So, thanks again for your time, and best of luck with your work as a well-being consultant.

Tom: [40:53] Thank you, Joseph. And thank you for what you’re doing. Because I think it creates hope for a lot of people. Especially a lot of lawyers think there is no life outside of law. A podcast like yours shows everyone in every profession, there’s a wonderful life outside of what they’re doing.

When does it make sense to let go of stability to boldly pursue the unknown? In this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Samantha Tovera-Agustin, an HR professional turned founder explains why she chose to move her career, family, and life from the Bay Area to the Philippines. We’ll discuss the challenging balance between work and parenthood, signs that suggest you may need a change in your career, and ways you can prevent career regret.

I also share some thoughts on the importance of reconnecting with old friends during the Mental Fuel® segment.

Key Career Takeaways

1. When you work hard to get to where you are in your career, letting go of all this investment is incredibly hard.
2. People often regret the inactions they took in their careers to do something bold and brave that honors their values. Surrendering to the unknown and allowing yourself to potentially fail enables you to open the door to new, exciting opportunities in your life and career.
3. To be there for others, you have to make sure you’re taking care of your own health and well-being first.
4. Societal expectations can lead us to feel like we need to be working and hustling all the time. But slowing down is not only okay but also necessary sometimes to see more clearly and reconnect with yourself.

Resources Mentioned

• We discussed the topic of regret. The book I mentioned is The Power of Regret by Daniel Pink, which I would highly recommend!

Listener Challenge

I’d challenge you to reconnect with a long-lost friend from your past. f you’re like me, I find it a bit awkward to suddenly drop a note to someone you haven’t spoken to in years.

I’d still challenge you to do it—just to see what happens. Even if you don’t rekindle the relationship, at the very least, you can let that person know that you’re still thinking about them. And that alone can be valuable. You never know what kind of an impact that could have on them.

About Samantha Tovera-Agustin

Samantha Tovera-Agustin is a seasoned HR professional specializing in talent acquisition, leadership development, and employee engagement. When the pandemic hit in 2019, she launched her own business, Masarap Box (Facebook, Instagram) that delivers a monthly box of Filipino snacks right to your door.

The past three years made her realize what mattered to her. In 2021, she and her husband made a big decision to move with their two young daughters (aged five and two at the time) from California to the Philippines, where she’s originally from, to truly honor what they valued most- which was to spend more quality time with family.

Now back in the Philippines, her husband has also recently launched C-Suite Jiu-Jitsu (Facebook, Instagram), a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Training Center, and Samantha’s been able to work as an HR Consultant for Canadian and US firms, helping small to mid-size businesses with HR solutions- which also honors her professional values of serving others. With more flexibility in her schedule now, she’s been able to reconnect with her family, her friends, and most importantly, herself.

Samantha and I first connected in 2018, when she dropped me a note after watching my TEDx Talk, and we’ve remained in touch since. Watching her career evolve over the past few years has been really fascinating, and it’s not every day that I cross paths with people who make the decision to let go of a well-paid, stable job to make such a big international move. I was really excited to get her onto the Career Relaunch® podcast so you can hear how she came to her decision.

Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

• Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers.
• Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions.
• Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook

Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
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Thanks to Audible for Supporting Career Relaunch

Thanks to Audible for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. Audible is the premier provider of digital audiobooks, offering over 180,000 audiobook titles for listening anytime and anywhere on your favorite device. Career Relaunch® listeners can download a free audiobook download and get 30-day trial at audibletrial.com/careerrelaunch.

Interview Segment Music Credits

• Ebby & Flod – Giza
• Hazy – Letting Go
• Cora Zea – Faith in Aurora
• Scott Buckley – Jul
• Podington Bear – Infant
• Podington Bear – Satellite Bloom
• Podington Bear – Beautocracy

Episode Interview Transcript

Teaser [first ~15s]: That made me think, “What if I had whether a business or a career that gave me the flexibility to own my own time and be more intentional being able to spend more time with my kids, with my husband, reconnect with myself.”

Joseph: Now, you and I haven’t spoken in a really long time until we hopped on this call a few seconds ago. I’ve got so many questions I want to ask you about your life in the Philippines and your career trajectory since we last connected, and how you came to the decision to move back to the Philippines. I’d love to just start by getting a sense of what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life. Can you also just tell me where exactly you are situated there in the Philippines?

Samantha: [03:34] Yes. We could start with where we are in the Philippines. We live in a small city called Baguio City. This is actually where I pretty much grew up until we moved to California when I was in high school. But there’s a lot of things that I’m focused on right now, personally, in my life and my career. Personally, our family is about to hit our one year living in Baguio. We moved from California last year. And then, my husband and I have two small children, 5 and 2. They are definitely keeping us busy right now. Our eldest started kindergarten this year. She is doing ballet and Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

Joseph: What a combination.

Samantha: [04:18] I know, right? It’s pretty awesome. It’s pretty awesome! It’s a pretty good balance, right? My husband and I, now that we have a lot more time, we try to be more intentional to reconnect with each other. We have time to breathe and go on dates once a week, even if it’s just a coffee date for an -hour, and unplug. We have this rule to not talk about our to-do list for about an hour and just talk about something else, shows or whatnot.

For me, personally, I also got to reconnect with my childhood best friend. I’ve known her literally since birth. Our dads have been college friends and we grew up together, and now we’re doing yoga every week. Aerial Yoga, which is very like something that I probably would not know in a million years that I would do as a hobby. But it’s pretty exciting, something to look forward to every week. That’s a little bit of my personal life.

Career-wise, right now, I’m helping my husband build his jiu-jitsu business, which recently opened August of this year. He’s the instructor, but I’m managing the front and back-end operations of the business, which is exciting. And then, I am working to relaunch my Filipino snack subscription box business called “Masarap Box,” one that I started in the peak of the pandemic. I temporarily had to pause that and we could probably talk about that later. Just during our move, I had to pause it for a little bit, but expecting to relaunch it next year. And then, lastly, I’m still working as an HR consultant with actually two different firms, one based in Canada and one based in the U.S. Both jobs allow me to have this flexible schedule that I have right now. It’s pretty exciting right now here!

Joseph: Super exciting! You and I actually haven’t spoken in months.

Samantha: [06:03] Yes.

Joseph: I just got an e-mail from you a couple weeks ago just as we were preparing for this. One of the things you mentioned there and I’d like to talk about this. Before we go back in time and talk about your career evolution, you mentioned you have reconnected with one of your childhood friends. I remember getting your e-mail, and that got me thinking a lot about friendship and adult friends versus childhood friends. Any major revelations for you as you’ve reconnected with her after all these years?

Samantha: [06:29] Yes, hanging out with your childhood friends and people that you grew up with in grade school and high school brings out your immature self. I’m not saying one is better than the other. You have those more profound conversations with your adult friends. Although, I still have them with my childhood friends. But I truly get to be my immature self without fear of judgment, being with the people that I grew up with because they saw everything. They saw the good, the bad, the ugly, first heartbreaks, first boyfriends. It’s a different dynamic. Am so glad that I got to reconnect with most of them living here.

Joseph: I know that you haven’t always been an HR consultant. You certainly haven’t been someone who has moved from the U.S. to the Philippines until now. This is your first big move back home. Can we just go back in time? Can you just tell us a little bit about your time as a child growing up in the Philippines, and what was life like for you there?

Samantha: [07:29] I actually was born in Manila, which is more south of where Baguio City is. But then, we moved to Baguio City at 2 years old. So, I grew up here. I went to school here. I developed all of my childhood friends. All of my friendships are here, with all of my childhood friends. My childhood was pretty amazing.

My dad is a doctor. He is a general surgeon but is also focused on cancer surgery. He’s still semi-retired, still doing that just to keep his routine going. My mom, at that time, was working in human settlements for the government. When we moved here to Baguio, she helped manage this corporation, this clinic. My dad and other doctors ran this clinic that is focused on occupational therapy. She was pretty much managing that business for a while when I was growing up. Then in my childhood, I have an older sister and a younger brother.

My parents were intentional with creating those core memories per se, creating those memories for us as kids. We would travel all over the Philippines at least three times a year together with my childhood best friend, which I do yoga with now. Our families would truly go on trips together, and that’s always the highlight every year. Like, “Where are we going to travel to next?” Our family naturally just loves traveling.

I was here until high school. A little background about my dad’s family and how we came to the states is my dad’s family was already set to go to the states in the 70s. He has four siblings, my grandparents, and they were all set to go. But then, my dad was still studying medicine when he was here, and he wanted to finish up and he was going to follow. Then, of course, he fell in love with my mom. They got married and he did not want to separate from us as a family. He wanted to petition us as a family. It was a long process. I didn’t know at that time that we were petitioned as early as the early ’90s and didn’t get approved until early 2000s.

Joseph: To get a Visa to move to the United States. That’s what you’re talking about.

Samantha: [09:39] To get our permanent residency to the U.S. It was tough for me because as you get older, you develop your friends and you’re settled here. At that time, I was in high school, and it was a hard move for me because I was questioning like, “Why? Why do I have to go? I could just go to school here.” Of course, at that time, I felt like I was forced.

In hindsight, I understand now the intention behind it and I’m happy that my parents did that. Because they wanted to give me that opportunity, right? An opportunity that probably not a lot of people had, but I had. One thing that my dad told me is that he didn’t want me or my sister or my brother to resent them for not giving us the opportunity to try to live this life outside of the Philippines, and try to kind of go for the opportunities that we have there. Again, I’m glad now. I didn’t understand at the time as a high school, 16-year-old kid, right? But, yeah, that’s how we came to America!

Joseph: Where did you guys first land and where did you grow up in the United States? What do you remember about that time?

Samantha: [10:45] We officially moved there in 2004, but we got to go on vacation there prior. I would say a year beforehand just to do all the touristy things. I vividly remember, I was sad at that time. I didn’t get to go to my high school graduation, our flight was booked before. At that time, it was a big deal. We landed in San Francisco. We lived with my dad’s family at Sunnyvale. We lived there for a while.

I had to jump right into it right away. My family really wanted me to kind of get acclimated right away. They had me like, “Hey, go to Community College. Go to De Anza.” I kind of signed up for whatever. I was already in the middle of the semester or that quarter. Whatever was available, I kind of signed up for it just so I have classes. I remember a culture shock in some ways for me because over here in the Philippines, everything is very accessible. At least in Baguio, you could walk everywhere. You could hail a cab wherever you’re at. In California, you got to have a car.

Joseph: You got to drive everywhere.

Samantha: [11:50] Yeah. It will take you hours before you get to your final destination because of all the bus stops. That was one of the big adjustments for me. I definitely like having friends. I developed friendships over there as well, and people gave me rides. But it was nerve-wracking having to get my driver’s license and all of that because I never thought I needed to drive to get anywhere. It was rough moving from the Philippines to over there.

At that time, my dad was also still working in the Philippines. So our family were kind of separated a little bit. It was also, with my immaturity at that time, that I was just so focused on “I don’t see my friends, I don’t have any friends here.” Eventually, I’m a naturally outgoing person and I started working. You know, working part-time and going to school and kind of just got acclimated, I would say within two years. Yeah, that’s a little bit about our move.

Joseph: This is a career show, and I want to switch gears here a little bit. Can you describe how you decided to go down the path of retail management as your first chapter in your career?

Samantha: [12:53] That was my first career. A lot of my experience before I became HR was in retail management. I honestly just kind of fell into it and vividly even remember getting my first seasonal part-time job at Victoria’s Secret. That was seasonal part-time. I didn’t even have interview clothes at that time. I just found out they had a group interview. I bought my interview clothes that same day and went to the interview and got it.

I, again, didn’t think I was going to be in retail for a long time. I just thought it was just going to be a college job. But then, I was fortunate enough to have amazing leaders who invested in my development. I was at Victoria’s Secret waiting for them to either lay me off and tell me, “Hey, your seasonal job is over.” But then, I got a promotion within I would say less than a year to be a team leader. That’s kind of what jump-started everything and it just kind of grew with Victoria’s Secret until I became in operations, or what they call “category manager” at that time. I was in there for probably about three years. After college, again, I feel like I only knew retail.

I felt the confidence to apply at Target, or actually, I got recruited at Target. But then, I went forward to apply to first be an HR manager. It was more of an HR generalist role at Target after college. But then, they put me in multiple roles for my own personal development as well. I was holding multiple management roles in operations in HR while I was at Target. As you may already know, working retail makes you work crazy hours. For so many years, I pretty much missed all the holidays. At that time, it didn’t matter to me because I didn’t have kids yet.

Joseph: Let’s talk about this for a second. The life of someone working in retail. I don’t know if I told you this, Sam, but I had a brief stint in retail myself when I was living in Honolulu, Hawaii at the Ala Moana Shopping Center, which is this big outdoor mall there on the island. I was working on the women’s floor in the shoe department helping women find a pair of shoes.

I was in my early 20s at the time, and I loved that job because I got to meet a lot of people and cross paths with folks when they were generally pretty relaxed and in a good mood. But at times, I felt

customers could be a bit condescending at times to people like me working on a store floor, folding sweaters. You know what I’m talking about?

Samantha: [15:20] Yes.

Joseph: Where people think, “Oh, this is just a part-time temporary job for you,” or “You’re serving them.”

Samantha: [15:26] Yes.

Joseph: I guess this happens in service-based industries, too. I’m just wondering what was your experience like working in retail?

Samantha: [15:35] Honestly, I probably felt that one time during Black Friday. I’m sure everyone knows how crazy Black Friday could be. I feel like that’s a really big misconception. To this day, I feel like as an HR manager and as a recruiter, when I’m doing recruiting projects, I have a little bit of a bias for retail workers because I know that they are the hard-working people that I know because they manage multiple projects during a crazy store, meeting all types of metrics while keeping the store afloat, and managing their team.

I feel there’s so much more to that, and I’ve learned a lot of great leadership skills working in retail. There is still that stigma at that time, or I don’t know if it still does now, but I think that that’s a big misconception because I feel like you could get great leaders, recruiting from retail, from someone who has worked in retail management. I’m happy to advocate for them.

Joseph: Definitely. A lot of times when you are working in retail, on the floor at least, you are directly interfacing with customers in a way that people back in the corporate head office may not be. You’re literally representing the brand.

Samantha: [16:53] Absolutely.

Joseph: A couple questions for you here. One is just trying to get a sense of how you were feeling about your career in retail, and also at what point did you feel like that schedule was no longer going to be sustainable for you in your life?

Samantha: [17:09] When I didn’t have kids, I was just in that mode of I just needed to do my best and work my way up as much as possible. I was driven. I was driven to succeed. I wanted to get to the highest management level as possible at that time. Those were my priorities. I felt like it was an investment. It was an investment of like, “I’m working all of these hours right now. It will all pay off once I get the money and get the fancy position.”

It took a toll on me when I had my daughter in 2017, my eldest daughter. Because with holidays like Christmas Eve, I didn’t leave the store until 4:00 in the morning, and my daughter missed Christmas Eve! I knew that long-term that I did not want my daughter or any future kids that I had to miss those holidays because that’s building that core memory for my kids. I’m not going to be able to take that back if I continued working retail. Development-wise, the company developed me as a leader, as a person. But my priorities have shifted when I had my firstborn.

Joseph: It’s kind of funny because our daughters were born at the same time. My daughter was also born in 2017. Once you had your firstborn, at what point did you decide you needed to make a change?

Samantha: [18:32] I started having anxiety when I have my closing shifts. I felt like I was very short-tempered, lack of sleep. At the same time, you have a toddler who doesn’t sleep through the night. I feel like I’m doing my daughter a disservice of not being the best and available mom for the very little time frame that we have together. I knew I needed to make that change, and I knew that if we were going to have more kids that it cannot move forward with that schedule.

In 2018, that’s how I came across your TED talk, which inspired me to make that career change. I saw that as a sign because I didn’t know where to start. You said earlier, there’s this stigma that when you’re in retail, you kind of just settle for that and it’s hard to get out of it. I felt that way. I felt like, “What do I do next? Retail is all I know.” But then, I saw your TED talk, and that’s really what jumpstarted. Me being that motivated to start actively looking. I even messaged you and thanked you, “Hey, this is the push I needed!”

Joseph: Right. That was how we first connected.

Samantha: [19:37] That was when we first connected. A few months after that, I got an offer. That was when I kind of gave up. I started applying. Before I gave up, I just updated my LinkedIn profile. This company was the one who reached out to me. I got an offer from this construction and development company to be their HR business partner overseeing the Northern California Division. It’s exciting for me because like, “Oh, it’s my first 9-to-5 job, and I’ve never worked a 9-to-5 job before.” It was all exciting and new to me at that time. It was in that role for about 3 and 1/2 years until again, we made this move here in Baguio.

Joseph: Okay. I want to get to that move in a moment. But before we do, you mentioned something there about applying to jobs and not getting the positive response that you had hoped to get, at least initially. This is a pretty common dynamic that comes up with people where they are in a role and they are starting to think about making a change. They start applying for other roles that they think are more promising, but they don’t end up getting the traction they want, at least initially. How did you know that you were on the right track in spite of the fact that you weren’t getting the traction that you were hoping to get at the very start?

Samantha: [20:56] At that time my goal was just get out of retail. Whatever translates to getting out of retail that gives me a better schedule, I was so focused on that. As I continue to apply, I wanted to think long and hard, “Okay, what do I value?” Kind of seeing that connection of, “What am I good at?” But then, “What also aligns with the next step of my career in my professional life?”

Being in retail management, I had that passion for being in the service of others. For me, the biggest reward is being able to see someone grow in their career. I know at Target at the time, whenever people ask me what my biggest accomplishments are, is being able to be a part of someone’s growth. I was able to promote team leaders into the next role, which is at the time being an assistant manager, prepped them for interviews, really being that strategic partner for team members. At the same time, also being that partner to managers.

Being in retail management, you have to be that kind of that the balance of advocating for employees, but kind of advocating for the business as well. That kind of got that lightbulb moment for me. Like, “Oh, I would love to be an HR business partner and be that strategic partner for a company that also truly values their team.” That’s kind of what narrowed down my search at that time.

Joseph: You identify this path. You end up moving into an HR business partner role. I’m assuming things are working pretty well for you professionally. How did things end up ultimately transpiring for you during this specific chapter in your career?

Samantha: [22:40] It was definitely a great role. I learned a lot. But really what kind of made us transition again is COVID. We hear a lot about the great resignation. A lot of things happened in 2020, for us and our family on top of COVID. In 2020, we had our second child. At that time, we kept getting asked, “When are you going to buy a house now that you have two kids? Your family is getting bigger.” The interest rates at the time was at its lowest, right? It’s time to jump in.

What was going on just at that time that was happening, my husband and I started becoming more stressed out at work. My husband was working for the county at that time as a — they called them “eligibility services technicians.” Basically, they are the ones reviewing and approving government assistance and aid, which got stressful in 2020 when many businesses shut down. A lot of people are following up on their aid. Backlog of calls are happening because everyone wants to get their aid as soon as possible. It was a stressful time for him. It was a stressful time for me working as an HR business partner with COVID is in its infancy at that time. There were so many unknowns. As HR, you have to keep up with all the ever-changing safety guidelines. It was honestly a recipe for burnout.

I hope if you have other HR professionals listening right now, I hope I get an “Amen” from them and hope they can relate. At the time, I kept hearing HR’s getting burned out. There’s no HR for HR.

Joseph: Absolutely right. Yeah, who’s helping you guys help the other people who are coming to you because they’re stressed out and trying to deal with all their different challenges?

Samantha: [24:21] Yeah, that was one of the elements as well that kind of made us think hard. Again, going back to our priority with our little kids. We’re stressed out at work. Our kids are in day-care, 12 hours a day. You know, again, we felt guilty. We felt like we were being unfair to our kids at that time. Because A, they already spent time in day-care for more than 12 hours, probably, a day. By the time that we get home, we have a solid three hours to spend time with them until we have to do it all over again.

And B, we would feel very wiped out after work. We felt like we were just not being the best version of ourselves. We’re not being intentional parents, being just wiped out at work by the time that we get home with the kids. We just kept feeling like we were running on autopilot. From getting your sleepy kids at six in the morning and doing all over again. By the time weekends hit, we’re either tired or we have to force ourselves to make these memories for our kids. Take them to the park, take them to whatever. But we only have those two days, right? It just felt like it wasn’t sustainable, for our family, at least.

Joseph: You mentioned picking up your kids at the end of the day, where I’m guessing you didn’t have a ton of energy left after having a full workday.

Samantha: [26:39] Yes.

Joseph: When you think back to those days, what kind of parent did you catch yourself being during those events? Did you notice anything?

Samantha: [25:21] I was probably like — I wouldn’t say an angry parent, but I would snap pretty fast and I felt bad. We were definitely screen-time parents. If we didn’t have time to deal with it, “Here’s your iPad. Here’s your phone.” I just need a minute to myself being like a headspace where I’m not thinking about work and not stressed out about what’s the next meal we would order in.

We probably had food delivery almost every day because I didn’t have the energy to cook. I go for convenience. If it gets delivered. If I don’t have to go out of my way. I would put in the order before I drive home. By the time I get home, it’s delivered. Groceries are also delivered. I was that type of parent. Whatever’s convenient, I will invest in that. Good thing we were in a good financial place at that time. To me, that time is that investment. It saves me time. We invested in laundry. Not having to do our own laundry because we wanted that time back for our kids.

Joseph: You’re trying to stay afloat. You’re trying to give yourself some time. Sometimes, delegating is really the only way you can do it. Around this time, you also decide that you are going to launch your own business. What motivated you to venture into the world of entrepreneurship and being a small business owner?

Samantha: [27:08] I was starting to miss home. Because my husband and I usually would visit the Philippines at least every two years. And because of COVID and the restrictions, we didn’t have that capacity to do that. It was also during the time that I was still pregnant with my second and I was craving Filipino food. Even living in California, I feel like Filipino food is easily accessible. Of course, the stuff that I was craving, growing up in the Philippines, are the ones that are hard to find. That kind of made me think, “Oh, I wonder how many people else out there, even living outside of California, Filipinos out there, working professionals there, are probably feeling the same way that I’m feeling. Kind of just missing those nostalgic Filipino snacks from our childhood in the ’90s, or early 2000s.

I started researching, and at that time, there were some other businesses that were doing kind of like gift box, Filipino gift boxes, as well. But it was still very new. I didn’t see a lot of businesses and I’m like, “Well, a lot of those businesses, they’re featuring their own products.” Versus for me, it’s sourcing those products from the Philippines, which ended up evolving, connecting with different business owners. I ended up also featuring some of their Filipino food products in my boxes, which was a great opportunity to connect with the Filipino-American community across the United States. That’s really how it started. It’s just my own personal kind of cravings. I was like, “Oh, what if I do this?” I kind of wanted to test it out. And by December, before our move, my husband and I were packing 60 boxes before we had to leave.

Joseph: You’re doing it yourself?

Samantha: [28:53] Yeah, we were doing it ourselves. It was really, truly a test run. It was just, honestly, also a distraction for me. I felt like I was losing myself in a sense that, “Hey, I don’t have any hobbies.” I pretty much just go to work, go home, be a mom. I wanted something for myself. And that’s kind of what also jumpstarted me to start this business.

Joseph: Okay, so you have started Masarap Box, which is what this is called, where you’ve got Filipino snacks that you are selecting and delivering to people. What triggered you to then start to consider making another move at this point in your career?

Samantha: [29:31] I just felt like, “Oh, there’s opportunity for me to be able to either run my own business or own my own time.” I didn’t know that I could be — I don’t say successful, but semi-successful or at it, to get the response that I did at that time when I launched Masarap Box. That made me think, “Oh, what if I had whether a business or a career that gave me the flexibility to own my own time and be more intentional with, again, my time. Being able to spend more time with my kids, with my husband, reconnect with myself, right?” I felt like I was myself again, and I had this “baby” that I owned, that I truly owned.

That is really what jumpstarted me and my husband thinking. We kept entertaining the idea of moving to the Philippines. We’ll have easy access to food, and I feel like where I grew up is a good city in Baguio. It’s a good city to raise my kids in. Overall, that’s kind of what made us think a lot until we took action, but that’s kind of what jumpstarted that thought.

Joseph: Now, on the one hand, this sounds great. You get to reconnect with family, long lost childhood friends. You get to reconnect with the culture you were once a part of. What most concerned you about making this sort of a move at this point in your life and your career?

Samantha: [30:53] The biggest fear or concern that I had was letting go of all the investment that I put in myself in my career. I went for my master’s. I went to school. I felt like I worked hard, worked long nights, worked so many hours to get to where I am now with my position and my pay, right? What if I made the wrong decision, and I come here and I don’t find a job? There’s just so many unknowns at that time. I was just thinking of all the “what ifs.” Like, “What if I fail? What if this is the wrong move?” It was also letting go of my past career because I felt I’ve created this career for myself. Letting that go and starting over was definitely a big concern for me.

But then, thankfully, my husband kind of led me back to the bigger picture. Then, how’s your mental health, right? Is it worth it? Is it worth it that you’re staying in this job? Yes, you’re making this great pay, but does it align with how we want to raise our family and how we want our kids — what childhood do we want them to grow up in? What do we want them to experience when they look back at their childhood, what would we want them to say? We want to be those present parents. That was really the defining moment for me. “Okay, this is definitely should be the right decision because this is for our kids as well.”

Joseph: It sounds like, Sam, you’re thinking about your kids. You’re thinking about the impact your job was having on your kids. Was there a particular moment that, ultimately, tipped the scales for you guys where you said, “Okay, we’ve got to make this move back to the Philippines. This is the right moment for this sort of a transition in our lives and in our careers.”?

Samantha: [32:42] We were saying, “Okay, we are going to go to jobs that we are stressed out about, paying for a home that is probably something that we couldn’t afford, or maybe we could afford, but we’re barely getting by. Or, can we use that money for this move and have a better quality of life?” That was truly when we could say, “Okay, we could do this because I’m.” I have a little bit of type A in me. Whereas, I need to see it and what we need to do and how much will that cost. It’s still good for me to kind of see something measurable, and how are we going to get there, and what the sub path looked like. So we really put that pen to paper. Once we saw the numbers and we saw everything, “Okay, we could do this.”

Joseph: Well, there is a book called the “Power of Regret” that I’m reading right now by Daniel Pink.

Samantha: [33:27] Oh, I love Daniel Pink!

Joseph: Yeah. One of the four major regrets that people have at the end of their life or even midlife is a boldness regret where they don’t do something bold.

Samantha: [33:40] That’s part of it, too. It’s like, “Okay, if I’m not going to make it now, am I going to regret it later?” Retail really helped me find of made me learn, “Yeah, fail fast.” Because in retail, you fail fast on a lot of things. I kind of apply that in my real life. I’m like, “Well, what’s going to happen if I fail? I’m not going to know until I know and I jump into it.”

Joseph: Before we get to your time back in the Philippines, can you take me back to the moment when you and your husband, and your two young daughters hopped on the plane? On your way to the Philippines, as you guys took off from San Francisco, what was running through your head?

Samantha: [34:18] There was a lot of anxiety and excitement. Getting dropped off at San Francisco with two restless children, while dragging our luggage and two big car seats was definitely the first hurdle.

Joseph: Yes. Any trip with young children . . .

Samantha: [34:36] That was definitely the first hurdle. Yes. That was the biggest hurdle for us. Did we pack enough snacks? And then, the next hurdle is when we checked in to get our tickets.

Joseph: This is December 2021, right?

Samantha: [34:48] Yes.

Joseph: Okay, so this is about two years into the pandemic. Still lots of travel restrictions and entry requirements.

Samantha: [34:55] Yes! We’ve heard stories and we witnessed it while we were checking in that there were some people that were not able to get on the plane because they didn’t take an RTPCR test 24 hours before. Because there was an easy miss if you look at that checklist on the website.

Joseph: Very confusing, yeah.

Samantha: [35:12] It was very confusing. At the time, there were still quarantine requirements. We had the quarantine with two small children in the hotel room before we got picked up after quarantine and we finally made it to Baguio. That was when we were able to have that big sigh of relief. Like, “Okay, we did it. We made it with two small children. Now, it’s where do we start and where do we go next?”

Joseph: Was there a point where you felt like this had gone from being something unknown to the right decision for you and your family?

Samantha: [35:47] Is when I hear my eldest saying, “Oh, today was a good day. I really like the Philippines. I don’t want to go back to California.” When we asked her, “Why don’t you want to go back to California?” It’s like, “Well, because Mommy and Daddy gets to spend more time with me.” That like, “Oh, my gosh!” I was bawling my eyes out! That was the defining moment for us where we knew that even as a 5-year-old, she could tell the difference of having stressed-out parents to having more present and intentional parents. That happened within less than a year, right? Kids will always tell the truth. They would never put a filter on anything, and I think that was the defining moment for me for sure.

Joseph: Did you notice anything about yourself? The Sam back in the Philippines versus the Sam in the Bay Area. Just on a day-to-day basis, how you felt, anything you noticed about yourself during that first year back there?

Samantha: [36:46] It was weird. I felt weird at first. Because Bay Area Sam is always on the go. Like, I would feel weird if I slow down. “What’s next?” Or we have downtime, we could check this off our list while we have time. Versus over here, I get to slow down. I get to reconnect with myself and it’s refreshing to have some time for myself as well because you need that. As a mom, as a wife, and just as a person, to reconnect with yourself and being able to kind of have something that you call your own.

For me, that’s being able to spend time with friends, having yoga, or anything that I only do for myself. Not because selfishly, but it’s just helped me feel a human being again. Yes. I feel like I’m the more laid-back Sam in the Philippines versus California Sam.

Joseph: I can’t help but think about myself as a parent as you’re describing these stories to me. Because I do sometimes feel guilty if I’m just taking a moment for myself to just do something for me. I don’t know why. Why do you think that is? As a parent that that’s so hard to give yourself permission to do that.

Samantha: [37:57] It’s so funny because that’s what me and my husband were just talking about a few days ago. It’s hard because you missed your kids. That’s why you feel guilty. But, at the same time, I feel like for you to be able to be at your best for your kids, you have to be your best self first in however way you need to — I wouldn’t say disconnect, but channel that or cope with that. You have to have some type of way to cope with life because you are still a human being, and you need that reminder that you still need that. You have your own needs as well.

However way you do that, whether it’s yoga, whether it’s working out, whether it’s taking a walk, that makes a difference and put you in a better headspace, and be available and ready for your kids. There’s always going to be that guilt. It’s because you miss your kids, right? You need time away from them, but the moment that you get time away from them, you miss them right away. It’s just going to be an ongoing challenge as a parent.

Joseph: I do want to talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way during your move back to the Philippines. I am curious to hear what has been the most surprising thing about returning there.

Samantha: [39:13] Living in Baguio City, even though traffic is probably worse from years ago, I feel like you could still get to where you need to go within 20 minutes. I feel like that takes back a lot of your time. You could be intentional with your time depending where you’re located. It plays a big deal. If you’re doing this two-hour commute at work, there’s so much you can do living in a smaller city, within two hours that you probably won’t have living in California. The time, how much I could do in a day. Because again, it’s such a small city and everything is still accessible. That’s what surprised me is how much time you could take back.

Joseph: As you leave a city like San Francisco, which sort of I guess on the outside and even on the inside when you’re living there, feels like this city of opportunity and growth, and a lot of the tech companies are there. Well, I’ve got clients sometimes, or cross paths with people who are about to make a move away from a big city, which feels like the place to be, with a lot of opportunity to then move to a smaller city or away from the “professional scene.” Did that run through your head? And if so, what advice would you give to the Samantha who was pondering whether to move away from a city like San Francisco?

Samantha: [40:34] Manage your expectations and do your research. Another thing too is, you know, how it was when I was a kid is probably not the same. There are probably some similarities, except that there are some things that you’re probably going to have to address to. Managing those expectations is very important. Really knowing what you value the most. Yes, there’s all of these things, but does that align with your values? Or how big will that impact your personal or professional values if you were to move there? As long as you know what you value the most, which in my case is being able to spend time with my kids, everything else is secondary.

Joseph: Well, that’s a great segue, Sam, into the last thing I want to talk with you about before we wrap up, which is just a couple questions about the lessons you’ve learned along the way. And then, we can talk a little bit about what you’re up to right now. What’s something that you’ve learned about yourself moving away from the Philippines to work in the U.S. for many years, and now returning to the Philippines?

Samantha: [41:33] One thing that I’ve learned about myself is that I needed to slow down. I just felt I was not being productive or I always felt restless. If I wasn’t doing anything, if I wasn’t keeping myself busy, slowing down helped me see things more clearly and speed up the process. One thing that I learned about myself, that I was going too fast and that’s slowing down is not a bad thing.

Joseph: What is something that you now know about career transitions that you wished you had known in the past?

Samantha: [42:11] The advice I would give myself is to be bold. This is probably cliché to hear, but life is short. But it truly is. The exciting part begins when you surrender to the unknown, even if it means that you might fail in some areas along the way. If you’re just kind of settling because you’re too afraid to fail, it’s better to just fail fast so you could learn faster and move forward.

Joseph: I want to wrap up with what you’re doing now. You mentioned this at the beginning of our conversation that your husband started some jiu-jitsu lessons. It sounds like your daughter is benefiting from this right now also alongside her ballet. Can you tell me a little bit more about C-Suite Jiu-Jitsu? What is that?

Samantha: [42:50] Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. C-Suite Jiu Jitsu is Brazilian jiu-jitsu lessons that we offer for kids as young as 5 through 16 years old, to adults as well. We also have women’s self-defense classes. Virtually, anyone in any size, as long as you know the right techniques, you’re able to escape from someone attacking you, whether they’re 100 pounds bigger than you. There are some ways to combat that. I feel like it’s a good life skill to have.

My husband, Benjamin Agustin, is the one running it. He’s the one teaching all the classes. I am running the operations. We just started this year but been having a lot of great feedback from people and there have been a lot of great signups, which is very exciting.

Joseph: In college, I very briefly took jiu-jitsu myself.

Samantha: [43:41] Oh, nice!

Joseph: I didn’t make it past white belt because I just didn’t have as much time in college. I was so caught up with my pre-med studies at the time. I feel like if there were one martial art I’d want our daughter to learn, it would be jiu-jitsu. Just because it’s so practical to everyday life and self-defense. Whatever happened to Masarap Box? What’s the current status of that business for you?

Samantha: [44:04] There were a lot of unexpected things that I didn’t anticipate with our suppliers. And just the cost, we are trying to reassess what would be a better value for everyone. I’m sorting that through right now. I just thought it was best for us to pause shipments this year, but something’s brewing, and I am working on rebranding it for next year. So, stay tuned. Hopefully, I get to update you as soon as we get that live again.

Joseph: If people want to learn more about C-Suite Jiu Jitsu, or if they want to keep up with what’s happening with Masarap Box, where can people go?

Samantha: [44:41] At least for C-Suite Jiu Jitsu, we are most active on Facebook and Instagram. If you just look up our handle, @csuitejiujitsu. For Masarap Box, @shopmasarapbox, mainly on Instagram. Yes, if anyone wants to learn more about just me personally and wants to shoot me a message or have any questions about my story or about career transitions, they could also easily look up my name on LinkedIn as well. That would be Samantha Tovera Agustin.

Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Sam, for telling us about your life as an HR consultant and business owner. How you managed your transition from the Philippines to the U.S., then back. Also, the importance of just getting clear on your priorities and values along the way of your career journey. Best of luck with C-Suite Jui Jitsu, Masarap Box, your HR consulting work, and also your life there in the Philippines. I hope it all continues to go well for you.

Samantha: [45:37] Thank you so much, Joseph. Thank you again for having me today.

When you figure out where to take your career, you shouldn’t feel like you have to chase after it right away. On Career Relaunch® podcast episode 89, Kessler Bickford, a former magazine editor turned psychotherapist, discusses the challenges of deciding where you take your career when you have multiple interests and the distinction between identifying and actually pursuing your passion.

We also talk about the importance of timing when making a career pivot, and during the Mental Fuel® segment, I also reveal the impact moving at different speeds in my own career had on my overall professional trajectory.

Key Career Takeaways

1. Not knowing exactly where you belong professionally is okay and totally normal. Sometimes, you just have to trust your gut to guide you.
2. Even if you know there’s something you’re meant to do, there’s a balance between going after it and waiting until you’re fully ready to make the leap. Timing is key.
3. You likely have more than one gift inside you. It takes some courage to decide exactly where you ultimately want to direct your energies then go for it with everything you’ve got.
4. Just like fit matters when you’re choosing a place to live or even a pair of shoes to buy, our overall job satisfaction has a lot to do with fit.
5. Be patient with your moves. Don’t let fear run the show.

Resources Mentioned

• We mentioned the Sept 2022 WSJ article, The Next Pandemic: Anxiety Over Life Itself
• The 13 best books for managing anxiety, according to psychologists– Business Insider, Oct 2022
• How to use anxiety to your advantage– BBC, Oct 2022
• Kessler also mentioned the importance of working with a professional therapist when trying to tackle struggles related to anxiety or shame. Your Guide to Getting the Most From Online Therapy from Everyday Health could be a helpful way to get a lay of the land.

Listener Challenge

During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about the importance identifying one initiative, project, or move in your career that you feel really eager to get done right away. Take a moment right now and reflect on what’s at stake and what might happen if you slowed down just a bit.

Do you need to pursue this specific goal at this very moment? Or is it something that could wait? At least for a bit? What would that cost you? How would it benefit you? Consider how slowing down might influence your ultimate chances of success.

About Kessler Bickford, Anxiety Therapist

Kessler Bickford is a psychotherapist running her own private practice who specializes in treating patients struggling with anxiety using a modality called Intensive Short-term Dynamic Psychotherapy. However, she began her career working for over a decade as an editor for Chesapeake Family Life magazine.

Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

• Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers.
• Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions.
• Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook

Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
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Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast

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Interview Segment Music Credits

• Bio Unit – Summer Rain
• Sappheiros – Embrace
• Guy Copeland – Agrotis Infusa
• Podington Bear – Celadon
• Alan Ellis – Sea Terms
• Howard Harper-Barnes – The Promising

Episode Interview Transcript

Teaser [first ~15s]: I needed to do some unfinished work in myself. I needed to live more before I could really speak into someone else’s life. I wasn’t ready. I thought I was. But, looking back, I couldn’t have done this the way I do it now. There wasn’t a chance.

Joseph: Hello, Kessler. It is good to talk with you again. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show.

Kessler: [02:23] Thank you, Joseph. It’s really fun to do this.

Joseph: First of all, before we get started, how’s everything going with you? Are you doing okay?

Kessler: [02:28] Yeah. Life is good. Being a parent just supersedes everything because your happiness this like contingent on how your child is doing.

Joseph: I should probably say that you and I haven’t spoken in a while. So, this is actually going to be a little bit of a catch-up for you and I also. I was wondering if we could just start by getting a sense of what’s been keeping you busy right now in both your professional life and also your personal life.

Kessler: [02:57] I am a wife and I am a mother of a 10-year-old boy, as well as a psychotherapist. All that is always moving the speed of light and at the same time. It’s the balancing act. It’s settling into parenting, and then it’s settling into my professional life, and there’s a lot of sort of stop-and-start there.

Joseph: I’ll bet. I am also a parent, and I can understand how it’s really hard to have any stretch of time to do anything continuously. Let’s take those one at a time. You mentioned you’re a psychotherapist. Can you just give a snapshot of what you do, what you focus on, and what your approach is?

Kessler: [03:42] With your help, I found my branding. My specialty is treating anxiety. That is something I’ve studied extensively and have certification in. So many other issues connect with anxiety. While I’m helping people with anxiety, I’m also helping them with emotional issues and other things like that.

Joseph: Just so we’re all kind of on the same page, when you use the term “anxiety” in a clinical sense, can you just explain in layperson’s terms what exactly do you mean by that? What are the types of people who you might typically see in your practice?

Kessler: [04:20] There are four different levels of anxiety, and they’re very different. Some anxiety might not bother you. As anxiety gets higher and higher and creeps up to sort of the second third and fourth level, it becomes harder to manage and certainly creates more sort of physical disruptions in your body and disruptions in your life, and it becomes pretty serious. I’m helping people learn how to regulate anxiety that goes to a point where it’s so high, it’s affecting the cognitive ability as well as sort of creating a lot of physical symptoms, too.

Joseph: We will probably get into more details into how you became a psychotherapist as we go along this conversation. I also want to touch on the family life piece of it because as you mentioned, you are a mother, and that plays into the balance between work and the rest of your life. Could you just give a snapshot of how you balance the two, and how much one affects the other?

Kessler: [05:25] It’s kind of miraculous. I’m not sure sometimes how I made a day go by when I look back on the day. Because I’m in private practice, I can set my schedule. That allows me to tailor the time I need and carve that out for my son or family things, and then move my clients around that. That’s such a blessing of being in private practice or working for yourself is you have that kind of flexibility and can put family first, which is what I do.

Joseph: Before we go back in time to talk about your previous profession, what’s it like having a 10-year-old son at home?

Kessler: [06:08] He’s in fourth grade and he has just a ton of personality. He’s very sweet but someone once asked me how’s motherhood. I said, “You know, there’s nothing like having your own personality used against you.”

Joseph: Right.

Kessler: [06:26] Because he looks just like my husband, but he has my temperament.

Joseph: I see. I’ve always thought it might be interesting as someone who is a psychotherapist to think about your children, their temperament, and their approach to life. It must influence your perceptions of your child and also inform your approach to parenting. Would you say that’s a fair statement?

Kessler: [06:49] I think it is fair. That doesn’t mean it’s a winning approach because I’m just human, and I’m at it with my fears and projections. The tricky thing is separating yourself from your child and realizing you’re two totally different people, and how you see something and feel about something is not the way they do. This allows them to have their own experience, their own personality separate from your own. That is something that’s I think hard for so many parents. It’s just accepting your child for the personality that they have that’s different from yours.

Joseph: I can completely relate to that. As you know, I’ve got a 4-, coming up on 5-year-old daughter. I do catch myself sometimes almost saying something along the lines of, “Well, when I was a kid…” This, and I just got to stop myself. I can feel myself tempted to bring it up but I stop myself.

Kessler: [07:48] Yeah.

Joseph: I know you haven’t always been a psychotherapist, Kessler. I’d like to kind of switch gears and go back in time now. Would you mind just telling me what you were up to before you entered the world of therapy? I understand you spent quite a bit of time as an editor. Can you tell me a little bit about that chapter of your career? And then, we’ll go forward from there.

Kessler: [08:06] I was a magazine editor for 12 years. I worked for a regional magazine that covered the Chesapeake regions of Maryland and Virginia and Delaware, and it was a lifestyle magazine. Before that, you know, mama was a rolling stone here. I had a lot of different careers. I was a wrangler on a dude ranch. I was a cleaning lady for a little while. I lived in the Bahamas for a while. I just didn’t know where I belonged. I was really lost. But, I knew I didn’t want to settle. I didn’t want to go into the corporate world just to check a box or have a job I didn’t love. I knew that if I didn’t love it, I was never going to be able to pull it off. I just sort of bided my time until my purpose came to me.

Joseph: There are some quite very different roles in there. So, you said wrangler on a dude ranch, and then, eventually, become a magazine editor. How did you go from the former to the latter? I’m just kind of reading between the lines here but was it to try to maybe take more practical job on paper that kind of felt a little bit more stable? Or, what was the motivation behind going into being a magazine editor?

Kessler: [09:23] I think I really realized I wanted to be a writer. I just had this life philosophy that even if you know there’s something inside you that you’re meant to do, if you touch it too soon, if you touch it when it’s not time, you could ruin it. What I mean by “ruin it” is if you’re not ready and you try it, the danger is you come out with a story that you failed. And so, this thing that you knew was inside you to do becomes this horrible story of failure, when the truth is is it just wasn’t time. So, you’ve got to wait for the time to be right. I think I was always just kind of waiting for it to be revealed to me what I really wanted to do, and then wait for the right time because they’re different. They’re two different things.

Joseph: Were you feeling like editorial work just wasn’t doing it for you? How did you know that that wasn’t going to be your long-term professional calling?

Kessler: [10:27] When I was in my early 20, I’d say 22, 23. I got the insight that I wanted to be a therapist. I was like, “Wonderful!” The purpose finally showed up. I can go for it, right? So, I went to my pastor at the time. I asked for a meeting with him and I said, “I think my purpose has shown up.” He said, “Well, wonderful! What is it?” I said, “Well, as a therapist.” He said, “Well, I would wait.” And, I said, “What?! Wait? Why?” He said, “Well, you just want to make sure that you’re ready for it emotionally, in maturity-wise, and if you want to make sure it’s time.” While at the time I thought, “Well, the nerve of him to discourage an effervescent, excited, young woman,” I thought there’s some wisdom there.

So, I thought, “Okay. Well, I’m going to put it on the back burner being a therapist, and I’m going to go into the world of writing. If the urge to become a therapist comes back, if it shows back up after a while, I’ll pay attention to it then. But, for now, I’m just going to let it kind of germinate. For 12 years I was in the magazine world and it did come back. That feeling to go back and get a degree in therapy, and go into that part of me did come back.

Joseph: If you wouldn’t mind diving into this concept of jumping into something too early, I think that could be interesting to talk about. You mentioned your pastor had mentioned, “Hey, don’t do this right now.” I’ve actually have been given a similar advice myself when I was thinking about going into coaching one day. I remember a coach I spoke to, he said, “Don’t do this yet.” What do you think is behind these people’s comments to dissuade people from jumping into their path of passion too “early”? What would be the downside of that?

Kessler: [12:31] I think everything in life is motive. I can’t speak to what his motive was. For me, it wasn’t a malicious motive. It was a motive of making sure that I was ready. I needed to do some unfinished work in myself. I needed to live more before I could really speak into someone else’s life. The truth is, the human brain isn’t fully formed to your 24, 25, and I was 22, 23, so I wasn’t ready. I thought I was. Looking back, I couldn’t have done this the way I do it now. There wasn’t a chance. For me, it was really good advice. It wasn’t pleasant advice. It was tough advice to hear, but he was right.

Joseph: What do you think that time as a magazine editor did for you or enabled you to do that you wouldn’t have otherwise been able to pull off when you started to make that transition into psychotherapy?

Kessler: [12:36] People ask me that, “Well, what’s the connection?” It’s not a loose connection, it’s a very strong connection because as a writer, you’ve got to have the ability to step out of someone else’s story. When you’re interviewing them, in order to tell their story, you’ve got to remove yourself so that you can fully hear them and fully take in their experience so that you’re able to translate it onto paper. There was so much training and listening and asking questions that lead to deeper and more information for me, and removing myself from the equation so that it can be their moment, not mine. That was really part of my training in becoming a therapist.

Joseph: Can we also talk a little bit about the transition itself? We’re talking about two at least seemingly different professions. Although, I know you mentioned there’s a very strong connection in the transferable skills that you developed. Can you just give a glimpse into what it was like to be working full-time as an editor while also pursuing this new path of being trained and credentialed to become a psychotherapist?

Kessler: [14:50] I was the senior editor. The managing editor who worked under me, he and I changed jobs, swap jobs. He became the head of the magazine and I was the editor underneath of him. I didn’t have all that responsibility while I was going to graduate school. I think I did that for about a year. I went to school full time. I had a tremendous gift from my mother who supported me at that time so that I could go to school full-time and finish it as quickly as possible because I was 38.

Joseph: Is that considered kind of late?

Kessler: [15:35] I think for me, it felt late because I felt like a late bloomer. I wanted to be able to get right back into the job market as fast as I could. A lot of people go back to school right from college into a graduate or PhD program.

Joseph: Let’s shift gears here then, Kessler. Let’s talk about your entry into becoming a full-time psychotherapist. Coincidentally, it’s not uncommon for me to cross paths with people who have been working in the corporate world have realized that they would rather have a more people-focused profession, and they do start to consider things like psychotherapy or going into clinical psychology. How do you go from studying clinical psychology to then eventually working as a psychotherapist? Can you just explain what path you followed and how did you land in the practice that you landed in?

Kessler: [16:27] I found a practice I wanted to work in. I did my research and I identified a local practice in my hometown where I wanted to work. I called them and I said, “You know I’m about to graduate. I’d like to come talk to you about if you have any openings.” The owner of the practice said, “Well, you’re not fully licensed yet. I just can’t take you on. Call me when you’re fully licensed.” I just didn’t leave him alone. I hounded the poor man until he gave me a job. I just chased him until he’s, “All right, enough! Anything to get you to quit calling me.” I think it’s about identifying where you want to work and then just going for it.

Joseph: How do you go about finding patients? Do they come to you? Do you proactively — “market” is kind of a strong word here, but kind of promote or kind of drive visibility for your practice? How do you go about finding your clients, your patients?

Kessler: [17:26] When I first got out of grad school, I worked in a group practice, and now, I’m in private practice. The marketing is very different. In a group, they provide you with your clients a lot of times. In private practice, it’s solely up to me to go do my own marketing and find my own clients. Word of mouth always has the most legs. It always is the best way to go.

Joseph: How was it for you? As you were part of that group practice, can you just give a sense of what your trajectory was there? How you were feeling about that? How that evolved for you?

Kessler: [19:03] It was a great place to start. It was a great place for me to get my feet wet in the industry, to be around other therapists to see how they work, to have people to talk to other therapists to talk to when I had a break. That’s what I wanted in the beginning was to have that kind of community to build my confidence in. It wasn’t long before I realized like what I really wanted to do was go into business for myself.

Joseph: Was there something in particular that was kind of nagging you about being part of a group practice versus branching off on your own that was triggering you to think, “Hey, I need to go start my own practice”?

Kessler: [18:50] There are lots of problems when you get a bunch of therapists together.

Joseph: Okay. I can imagine, yeah.

Kessler: [18:58] How many jokes can we make up with that one? Therapists have all kinds of different modalities they use, right? There are tons of different ways to do therapy. I had my own training compared to their training. Sometimes it clashes, sometimes it works. But, for me, that was a little bit of a rub that we didn’t have the same kinds of therapy we did. That becomes disagreement on how to do therapy and the best ways to do therapy. While you can learn from each other, it’s nice to be around sort of more people are doing the same kind of therapy you’re doing. Also, your schedule is not your own when you work in a group, and neither is your rate. It’s set for you.

Joseph: Let’s talk about your transition then, going from part of a group practice to branching off on your own to start your own solo practice. What was that like for you? that maybe let’s start off in the early days. How did you think it was going to go and then how did it actually go?

Kessler: [20:03] It makes me remember when I first found you online. I thought, “If I’m going to go out on my own, I’ve got to have something that differentiates me from the other sea of therapists out there.” I found you online. I have this memory of sneaking out of the office, going to sit in my car, and having these secret telephone conversations with you.

Joseph: I have recollections of that, also.

Kessler: [20:29] You helped me prepare for my exit because you helped me think through who I wanted to be in private practice. Yes, it was a business decision, but it was also very much of a philosophy I was building with your help of who I wanted to be, how I wanted to be known, and really thinking through all that. So, I really thank you, by the way, that you gave me that education before I stepped out on my own. It made it very much less impulsive and much more deliberate.

Joseph: That’s great. Here, I should probably say, just full disclosure, we have worked together professionally before where I guess, as you mentioned, when you were thinking about branching off on your own. You came to me and we talked a little bit about your branding and your positioning. Can you share a little bit about what was the best thing about branching off on your own, and what was the most challenging, just in the early days?

Kessler: [21:28] The scariest part was, “Oh, my God! Where am I going to get my clients from?” Because they’ve kind of been fed to me. My boss was very kind and said to me, “You can whomever you’re seeing now, the clients we’ve given you now, you’re welcome to take them with you if you’d like.” So, he was very generous in that way. But, the nature of the therapy I do is short-term work. It doesn’t take many weeks or months for patients to sort of “graduate,” if you will, from their therapy. Which means I need other clients to be right on the heels to fill the space. Yes, I could take my old clients with me but where were the new ones going to come from? That was a real nail-biter for me.

Joseph: How do you go about finding the patients? It’s kind of this ironic sort of system where if you’re doing your job well, I suppose, as a psychotherapist, it’s the same thing in coaching. Your patient’s not going to be your patient for very long because they’re going to get better.

Kessler: [22:30] Right, yes.

Joseph: And so, you kind of need this pipeline of patients. How do you go about doing that as a therapist?

Kessler: [22:35] It is feast or famine. In the five years I’ve been on my own, I still haven’t been able to crack the code of why are some months great and others are crickets. I don’t mean crickets, I mean maybe four, five, six, seven people as opposed to 20. it goes up, it goes down; it goes up, it goes down. I don’t know the rhyme or reason. I’ve spent a lot of time I think driving myself crazy trying to find the “why.” I think a lesson there has been, for me, it does come back. When it’s slow, use that time to rest. Just don’t let the fear eat you up, that it’s not going to come back.

Joseph: Yeah, that is an interesting point because one of the questions I wanted to ask you, Kessler, was about your life as a psychotherapist. Many people, they’re probably coming to you at their most desperate moments I’m imagining. They’re coming to you, you’re dealing with issues related to anxieties. You’re dealing with people who are struggling a lot with something. When they see you, they’re probably really needing some serious help. How do you maintain your own psychology and your own stability through it all?

You mentioned having let’s say 20 patients at any one given time, I would imagine that’s somewhat emotionally and physically draining. Is that the case as a psychotherapist, do you feel the weight of the patients you’re working with? Or, do you just find a way to kind of separate yourself from that? I’ve always been really curious to hear about that straight from an actual psychotherapist.

Kessler: [24:21] That hasn’t been a struggle for me because when you have hope for a patient, when they are highly invested in themselves and have the want, the will to meet their goals, I don’t worry about them. Because they’ve already decided they’re going to walk this road and they’re going to get to what they want. I also did some crisis work when I was in grad school as part of my grad school work, and that was very different. That was very draining for me because people didn’t always have the will or the want to get better. The sympathy would just pour out of you and that was draining. That’s a very different population. I think as long as I see that a patient has the will, the want, the drive to get to their therapy goals, I’m energized by that.

Joseph: Well, before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned through your transitions, I also just want to ask you about what you have found to be the most surprising aspect of shifting from being part of a group practice to now being someone who’s running your own practice.

Kessler: [25:44] I still have a community that I’ve created with other therapists around me, and reached out and gotten to know them and have coffee and we meet for lunch. I can still have that community without having it in my office space.

Something else I found very surprising is that we’ve got more than one gift in us. it takes some courage to put your eyes on that other part of you, that other gift because sometimes, it upsets the apple cart, right? Sometimes, it can upset your life when you do that because it brings some change. I do believe we all have more than one gift inside of us.

Joseph: The last thing I was hoping I could talk with you about, Kessler, before we wrap up with what you’re focused on right now in your practice is just a few questions about the things you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. I was hoping we could start by getting a sense of if you had to give advice to your younger self as it relates to making a major career change, what might that be?

Kessler: [26:54] Don’t second guess your gut about timing and have the courage to listen to it. You might hear a “no,” and that might be hard to hear. That no is designed to protect you. It’s designed to keep that change, that direction, you want to go. It’s designed to keep it sacred and it’ll come. Just listen to your gut about the timing of it all.

Joseph: I think sometimes we feel pressured, as quickly as possible, move on to that thing that we feel is really going to light us up and going to energize us, but to be patient with it, I suppose, if you can be.

Kessler: [27:47] Yes. Be patient with it and just question it.

Joseph: When you look back on your career change, Kessler, what’s something that you wished you had known that you now know?

Kessler: [27:58] I think don’t let fear run the show. It can cause a lot of hesitation. It can cause a lot of wasted time. Just go for it. If it’s the right time, just do it. Life’s too short to hesitate, to wait.

Joseph: One more question for you here. Just having been through this career change, what’s one thing that you have learned about yourself along the way?

Kessler: [28:24] Well, I was not a good student, okay. I have a little bit of a learning disability that was never identified. I wasn’t a great reader, focusing was hard for me. I didn’t come away with the experience that I was terribly bright. When I finally found my saying in life, I realized that I might not have a terribly high IQ, but I do have a high EQ. That was just something that wasn’t really valued by my family or at the time when I was growing up. I’m 53, by society either. I think it’s got much more clout now than it did when I was younger.

I got to see myself finally as smart, capable, bright, gifted, and that’s not to toot my own horn. It was just I could see myself in a different way that I’d always wanted to. Finding your thing that you’re really meant to do will bring that out for you.

Joseph: That’s a great point, Kessler. Sometimes, when you’re misplaced in the wrong profession, you can kind of mistakenly believe that you’ve got some issue and you’re just not able to do the job as well as you could or there’s something wrong with you because you’re not feeling energized by it. But you could just be completely in the wrong role and just not making the most of who you are and what you’re meant to do.

Kessler: [29:57] That’s right. It’s not a failure, it’s a bad fit. You’re not a failure.

Joseph: Absolutely. It’s like playing the wrong sport.

Kessler: [20:04] That’s right. You just got to find the right fit. that goes for relationships. It goes for careers. It goes for a pair of pants. You just have to find the right fit.

Joseph: I’d love to wrap up, Kessler, with what you’re focused on right now. I know we’ve touched on this, but can you just explain a little bit more about the focus of your practice on anxiety and shame, and the kind of help that you’re really excited about providing people that you work with?

Kessler: [30:39] I have been a student of the concept of shame since I was about 20 when I first heard the word. I really sort of built my life on first getting a hold of myself, to be healed of my own shame. And then, who knew that it was going to turn into what I’d be giving people for the rest of my life in turn. There’s one thing that every single person I’ve seen from the beginning of my career as a psychotherapist, that people have in common is shame, some element of shame. This has really been my focus is helping people come out of that, and being able to forgive themselves, and just break free of that cage of shame. That is always something in the works for me.

Joseph: I can’t let you go without actually asking you to maybe comment on this idea. I know before we hopped on this conversation, you actually shared an article in the Wall Street Journal with me that literally just came out before we recorded this. It came out in September 2022, and it was called “The Next Pandemic: Anxiety Over Life Itself.” You can imagine there are people out there who are probably listening to this, and maybe they’re dealing with a lot of economic uncertainty because of the unreal levels of inflation that are hitting people right now. We’ve got the war in Ukraine. We’ve got a lot of economic volatility. We’ve still got the pandemic that’s still in our hands.

If somebody’s listening to this and they’re either struggling with anxiety or they are struggling with shame, I am aware this is probably case by case basis, but do you have any broad suggestion on where people can start to at least make some strides in managing that anxiety or managing the kind of shame that they’re feeling?

Kessler: [32:43] It’s very hard to do on your own. I don’t think we were meant to do it alone. I think these are the issues that we were meant to do in a relationship with help. If you could do it alone, you would have already remedied the situation. It’s something we’re meant to do through a relationship. Make sure that you’ve got a therapist who is trained in anxiety regulation because it is a grossly misunderstood issue. I think not only in the therapy world but also in the medical world. You really want to have someone who is well trained and how to manage that.

Joseph: Speaking of which, if there is someone out there who’s listening to this and wants to learn more about the topic of shame or anxiety, or find out more about the work you do as a psychotherapist for people struggling with these issues, where can they go?

Kessler: [33:37] Well, thank you for asking. My website, which is my name, KesslerBickford, B-I-C-K-F-O-R-D.com.

Joseph: We will be sure to capture that in the show notes. I just wanted to thank you, Kessler, for well reconnecting with me first of all after all these years. Telling us more about your life as a psychotherapist, your transition from a very different industry into the world of psychotherapy. also just sharing some of your thoughts and insights on this topic of anxiety. Best of luck with your practice. Thank you for all the work you’re doing to assist your patients and all the people out there struggling with the challenges they’re facing right now.

Kessler: [34:16] Thank you, Joseph. It’s been fun.