Burnt Toast by Virginia Sole-Smith – Détails, épisodes et analyse

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We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for another Indulgence Gospel.

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Episode 157 Transcript

Virginia

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.

Corinne

And I’m Corinne Fay. I work on Burnt Toast and run SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus sized clothing.

Virginia

We have so many good questions this month. A lot of parenting food questions. I think maybe because I just ran the lunchbox piece in the newsletter it’s on everybody’s minds. But also, as usual, some fat fashion stuff. Clogs are coming up later. And Ozempic, because obviously. So it’s gonna be a good one.

Virginia

So before we dive in, how are you doing? What’s new with you, Corinne?

Corinne

I’m doing well. One thing that’s new with me is: I just signed up to do a powerlifting meet. So I’m feeling nervous. 

Virginia

Well, yeah. Is this like a competition thing, where people come and watch? 

Corinne

I think so. I mean, obviously, I’ve never done something like this before. It’s in Albuquerque, and it’s being run by my gym. And it’s all women’s. 

Virginia

That sounds very cool. 

Corinne

I’m just having a little of like, Oh, what did I do? Let’s see. Wow. Am I going to be the most amateur, weakest person there? I might.

Virginia

But you’ll still be super strong and amazing. Because the weakest person at a powerlifting competition is still the strongest person in most other rooms.

Corinne

That’s a good point. And I think one great thing about lifting is, it’s really more about your own goals and competing with yourself. But still.

Virginia

So is it like whoever lifts the most is the winner?

Corinne

So my understanding is very loose, but I know there are different weight classes. So you compete against people who are roughly around the same size?.

Virginia

 Interesting. Okay.

Corinne

And then I think it’s a cumulative weight of how much you lift, like combined squat, deadlift, bench press. 

Virginia

Wow, that’s so cool. Julia Turshen recently did one of these.

Corinne

I feel like I was slightly influenced by Julia Turshen.

Virginia

Did she enable you? Julia, good job! The pictures and videos she posted of it looked super exciting. And it looked like a very professional athletic setting. I would be intimidated for sure.

Corinne

The other thing that I’m sure we’ll end up talking about again, but you have to wear a singlet which is like, where am I gonna find a singlet? And knee socks.

Virginia

Knee socks! Why knee socks? 

Corinne

I’m like, oh my God, I’m never gonna find knee socks that fit me, but I’m trying to figure out if I can wear Universal Standard body shorts as a singlet, because I already have one of those. 

Virginia

That feels like a great solution. 

Corinne

It’s singlet-esque? But I don’t know what the actual requirements are.

Virginia

Girlfriend Collective also has a shorts body suit thing.

Corinne

I should look into that. 

Virginia

But I feel like you should be able to work with what you have. Especially for your first one. Once you’re a pro and doing this all the time, you’ll get, like, something with rhinestones. 

Corinne

Once I’m a sponsored Olympic athlete. Yes.

Virginia

I love that like we’re getting to follow along on the journey. Obviously we’re going to need another installment on this afterwards.

Corinne

Okay, yes. And just to be clear, the meet isn’t until July, so, so I have a lot of time to think about it.

Virginia

I’m just saying though. A few months ago, you were recommending Casey Johnston and her couch-to-barbell program. And you were like, “I’m just using a broomstick.”

Corinne

It’s true. 

Virginia

And now!

Corinne

It’s true and now I’m lifting actual pounds.

Virginia

Very, very cool. 

Corinne

Yeah, what’s new with you? 

Virginia

I feel like what’s new with me is that I am surviving, not thriving a little bit. So this is going to come out in mid-April. So we’ll be two weeks out from book launch. So I will either be better or I will be way worse. I mean, having had two children, it’s sort of similar to the last month of pregnancy when you’re like, it’s all you can think about, this thing is happening, but you have no control over it. I mean, at least with the book, you know, like the date it’s coming. Which with pregnancy, they have yet to really figure out, unless you’re scheduling. But I counted it up this morning, I have recorded 18 podcasts so far. Of other people’s podcasts. Like for talking about the book. 18 people’s podcasts. 

Corinne

Oh whoa. That’s wild.

Virginia

And like, seven of them were in the last week and a half? So I feel like my voice is hanging on by a thread. And I’m just getting a little mush-brained about it. I need to step back a little.

Obviously, I am super grateful. I love that people want me to talk about the book. I love that people are excited about the book. I cannot wait for it to be out. But it’s just at a point where there are a lot of details. Like, review all the press release materials, review the marketing plan…. I forgot we were recording today. And it’s not the first thing I’ve forgotten. Like, I forgot the kids had a dentist appointment. We made it, but I’m just like, my brain is holding too many pieces of information. Some things are getting dropped. I’m just coming in with a sort of scattered energy. But I’ve got the Throat Coat Tea that I’m living on right now. And we’re gonna do it! 

Corinne

Do you have any upcoming book promo stuff that you’re really excited to do?

Virginia

Well, I did an interview yesterday that I can’t talk about yet, because I don’t think it will be out by the time this launches. 

Corinne

Top secret. 

Virginia

There are two top secret ones that will be coming out in the week or two after this podcast episode. And they’re both very exciting. And I will say that I was very happy with my outfit for one. So that was good. And the other one the outfit matters less because it is not visual. I will say no more! 

And yeah, that part’s been fun, actually figuring out clothes for like the book tour Dacy has been helping me and maybe some time we’ll do a follow up about finding clothes for this. Because it’s a very specific level of, how dressy do you want to be versus comfortable? So maybe there will be an essay of what I wore for the book tour.

Corinne

I would love to read that.

Virginia

Okay, so we’re going to do some questions! The first one is a hot take opportunity. This came in over Instagram multiple times. People would like to know what we saw of Jia Tolentino’s Ozempic piece in The New Yorker.

Corinne

Okay, well, now is my time to be embarrassed when I admit that I read it really lightly. I did a really light skim sort of read, and was like, seems fine. And then I’ve seen everyone else being like, “This article is horrible.” And I’ve been like, wow, I really need to revisit that and find out why people are so upset.

Virginia

I’m glad to hear people are saying they’re upset! I felt like no one was talking about it at all for a little bit. And I was like, what is happening? I feel like the New York magazine piece came out, which I wrote about and that was not great. And then this piece comes out two weeks later, and I’m just like, why? Why did it come out? It’s the same piece really. 

And I want to be clear that I love Jia’s work. I loved Trick Mirror. I think she writes phenomenal stuff. The piece she did on Angela Garbes last year was just incredible. And this was… not that. It is very much centering the story on thin people who would like to be thinner if they take Ozempic. There’s one fat person interviewed for the story. And, you know, of course, every fat person is entitled to their own experience of fatness. But her quotes just reinforced so many stereotypes. She talks about wanting to lose weight because she feels like she can’t hike or run at her current size. And it’s like, come on. We can do better. 

Corinne

If you want to hike and run, you could work on hiking and running?

Virginia

Right! There are so many fat hikers and runners on Instagram. 

Corinne

I thought the compounding pharmacy thing was kind of interesting.

Virginia

Oh, like explaining how sort of like loosey goosey it is and getting the drugs? 

Corinne

Because I’ve seen a lot of people on TikTok being like, I’m getting this patented drug from a compounding pharmacy. And I’m like, wait, is that real? Like, what is that? So I thought that part was interesting.

Virginia

It was interesting. But when she goes through the process of getting it herself, I always just worry—this is the eating disorder handbook stuff.

Corinne 

True true. You’re literally telling people how to do it. 

Virginia

And I get that that’s not hard to find. We all have Google. But is that something The New Yorker should be doing? Does The New Yorker need to teach us how to get our weight loss drugs? I don’t know. I feel like the general trend in the Ozempic coverage–And this is not just Jia, not just New York Magazine. But by and large, this coverage has this underlying question of: If we have now found a silver bullet that will make people thin, does that mean we can just forget about anti fat bias? And that is so dark. We cannot just say, now that we have a way to make everybody thin, it’s okay to hate fat people, because we can just make them thin.

Corinne

That’s a good point.

Virginia

I’m not judging anyone’s individual decisions about this. But this larger discourse is not helpful. That’s my hot, grouchy take. 

Corinne

That’s the hot take! I would love to know also, if any listeners have strong feelings about it? 

Virginia

Yes. Comments are open!

Corinne

Okay, the next question is:

Q: The one thing I can’t shake as a new mom is worrying about making my daughter fat. How do I shake that? I grew up fat and it was hard. I want better for her. But does that mean dieting?

Virginia

This is a very understandable fear. But no, it does not mean dieting. 

Corinne

I want to validate this parent’s worries, because you're coming from a place where it sounds like you struggled a lot. And you don’t want your kids to struggle, and that totally makes sense.

Virginia

I think what I’m stuck on is, “I grew up fat and it was hard.” Yes, absolutely. Not denying that. But was it hard because you were fat? Or was it hard because the world made fat not okay?

And so, this is kind of the Ozempic thing, right? Is the answer to erase fatness by which we mean erase fat people? Or is the answer systemic change and unlearning this bias on a personal level? But I know, that is a terrible question. You cannot make all those systemic changes by yourself. That is not doable. So it is really, really hard.

Corinne

The one thing that’s sort of not explicit in this question is whether the kid is actually fat.

Virginia

She says she’s a new mom. So I’m thinking she has a baby. So she probably doesn’t know? 

Corinne

Because my next thought was, you could talk to your kid about it being hard. But maybe not for a newborn.

Virginia

But maybe start now! Get the conversation going.

Corinne

Start thinking about it. You can talk to yourself about it. I think now might be a time to start therapy. 

Virginia

Therapy, always a great option.

You are not going to make your daughter thin or fat. You don’t actually control her body size. The number of factors that go into determining body sizes is this sort of endless and murky list, and no one really knows what are the largest drivers. But how you feed her, and how much you make her run around are not the largest drivers of her body size. And putting all your energy there is only going to cause damage, which you yourself probably know, because when you say it was hard, I’m guessing that some kind of childhood dieting might have been a piece of that.

So I feel like we need to let you off the hook of the “I’m gonna make her fat.” She may be fat. There is nothing wrong with that. It is not your fault. And what she really needs is for you to unconditionally accept her body.

Corinne

I also think this could be a really good time to think of some advocacy you could do, whether that’s looking into school policies about bullying or even at the legislative level, like laws about anti fat bias. Or just trying to be an advocate in your community for body liberation or fat liberation? 

Virginia

I love that. And I just wanna say this is hard. It is really unfair that that is asked of us. But that is where we are on this issue. And we’re only going to make progress if we all approach it from that perspective. 

Corinne

And I want to reiterate: The thing about bias is, the solution is never to get rid of the people we’re biased against. Or to change them somehow.

Virginia

Right. So it’s okay. Maybe your daughter is going to be fat and how are you going to support her and advocate for her and make your home a safe space for her body?

Corinne

All right, I’m going to read the next one too: 

Q: I am trying very hard to be very neutral about food with my son who’s four years old. From the start, I have not labeled foods as good or bad. I have not restricted access to sweets or desserts. But lately, I’ve started questioning this. I’ve always felt pressure because I am not able to manage cooking meals. So from the start, my son was fed using a grazing technique where I would put together various foods and he would eat what he wanted. As he has gotten older, he is more specific in his tastes in a way that feels normal to me, pretty much macaroni and cheese or similar foods most of the time. There are other things he will eat, but I feel a lot of grief about my inability to get it together and provide regular hot balanced meals, also for myself. 

Recently, I’ve been trying to limit his intake of sweets just a little bit and it feels like a backside but I’ve been confused. Only two cookies and even suggesting he eats something before he gets the cookies. This week’s mailbag episode made me reorient when you talked about not doing this and reminded me why I wanted to avoid this restriction based language. And I admit the reason I started thinking about this was twofold. I filled out a research survey that made me admit a lot of things about our household eating that I feel low level guilty about and I felt the sting of perceived societal shaming.

And my son started talking about treats. I was a bit miffed as categorizing something as a treat, as opposed to food which he labeled the rest as, was something I was trying to avoid. Then I realized this could have come from daycare television, the fact that we give the dog treats, and so I am overreacting. I find it’s so hard to be consistent in my parenting in many avenues and food encroaches on that too. Giving food as a reward for example, this is something I do for myself, and I like it. But perhaps it is part of the problem of saving food for a special occasion as opposed to having it because you want it.

I need some perspective, please. Is it ever useful to direct a child to a more balanced diet as opposed to just modeling it? I do not mean telling them that specific foods help your eyes. What a relief to see that debunked, but more that many foods are yummy. And basically some form of kid specific ‘everything in moderation.’

Virginia

The first thing I want to say is: You are doing a great job. You are feeding your child. It does not matter that you are not cooking. And that the food is not hot or homemade. It does not matter at all. You are meeting your son’s needs by making sure he is fed every day, and making sure that he has enough to eat in order to grow. That’s the most important thing and you’re doing it. You’re winning! You’re doing great. 

And this really drives home for me the stigma we have around the idea that you can’t feed kids processed foods, you have to cook meals. All of this is so unhelpful because there are just so many reasons why that model of family meals is not a good fit. There could be disability issues. There could be cost issues, time bandwidth issues, all sorts of hurdles. There could also just be that you don’t like cooking. You can still be a good parent and not like cooking. It’s not a requirement. SoI just want to encourage you to take some of the shame away. 

Corinne

 That’s a great place to start. I totally agree. I was thinking about the study that you mention in FAT TALK about how it doesn’t matter what you’re eating and it much more matters that kids are just eating. 

Virginia

Oh, that’s a quote from Katherine Zavodni, who’s one of my favorite pediatric dietitians. So teaser for everyone who hasn’t read the book yet, but it’s a quote that I want to put on our fridge! She says, “The most important thing about good nutrition is making sure kids have enough to eat.” Because if you have enough to eat, all the minutiae of micronutrients, and macronutrients tends to work itself out. 

Now, obviously, there are kids with severe food issues like feeding disorders, allergies or other medical conditions where it may be more complicated. Their nutritional needs may be more specific. But if your kid is not dealing with one of those things, and has enough to eat on any given day, you have done your job as a parent.

Corinne

And you also talked about the studies on family meals, right? And how the benefits come from eating together rather than making sure it’s a home-cooked meal. 

Virginia

I’m so glad you brought that up. All the research on family dinners, which talks about how important they are for kids’ overall well-being and health—it’s because families are spending time together. So you could do that around breakfast, you could do that around a snack, you could do that in ways that have nothing to do with food. Like maybe you regularly have a long car ride to commute to school and work together. And that’s when you talk and catch up on your day. Kids need connected time with their caregivers. Food is just one helpful way to do it.

Corinne

It doesn’t matter if you are eating snack plates, or macaroni. 

Virginia

Some of my most connected meals with my kids are when we’re eating takeout or bowls of Cheerios for dinner! Because everyone is relaxed and you can focus on each other. And you’re not in this place of, “I put all this work into this meal and nobody likes it.”. 

So then let’s talk about feeling like you need to limit his intake of sweets. I think you’re going there because you’re feeling ashamed about what you’re doing. So I’m hoping just lifting some of the shame lets you step back from that a little bit. 

I also think the research shows pretty clearly that requiring kids to eat in very specific ways, like micromanaging their plate by saying “you have to eat something else before you get the cookies” or “only two cookies,” does not. in the long-term, serve kids’ relationship with food. It tends to result in kids who are overly fixated on the foods that have a lot of rules around them. You’re going to find yourself in power struggles where it’s like, why only two cookies, why not three cookies, why not two and a half cookies.

Don’t feel bad that you’ve done this, because I think we all get into these sort of panic moments where we do this because we’re just struggling and it feels like the “right thing to do.” But I don’t think it will ultimately serve you or serve your child. I think modeling eating a variety of foods is the best thing we can do. And even using phrases like “balance” or “everything in moderation,” I don’t love because not every day is going to be about moderation. And that can turn into a rule. Because what is “moderation?” 

And then the last thing I’ll say is, I think we touched on this in a previous episode. But I don’t think treat needs to be a bad word. Yes, we give the dog treats. Dogs’ existences are largely treat-based, at least in my house. We give ourselves food as rewards when we’re stressed out or we need some extra comfort. When we talk about keeping all foods neutral, I think we can take it too far, to this place where it feels like we’re not supposed to have any feelings about food at all. And that is not realistic or fair, or in line with how humans interact with foods.

So we do use the word treat in our house. And this came up with the lunchbox piece because I have a category of treats on the little chart I made for Beatrix and folks were like, “I can’t believe you have a treat category.” And I realized they had a different definition of that word. If you don’t have restrictive rules around when or how much treats you can eat, then treat is a neutral word. It just means foods that feel extra fun. Just something extra fun you want to have on your plate along with your other foods. And if you’re not saying “we only eat treats once a day,” or “we only eat treats on Saturdays;” if it’s not paired with restrictive language, then it’s still keeping foods neutral. Does that make sense?

Corinne

I think especially with the lunch box example, you’re using treat as a category to make sure you’re getting a treat. That seems really positive.

Virginia

Because I want them to know that those foods are welcome in their lunchboxes. Yes.

Corinne

Or required, even! 

Virginia

None of it’s required, Corinne, they can skip the treat if they want! But it’s a part of the meal. 

Corinne

Maybe that’s a way that this person could reframe it. It feels like you’re hearing your kid say treat and thinking they’re feeling like it’s something to be restricted. When could you be like, “Let’s make sure you’re getting enough treats.”

Virginia

That’s a great re-framing. I hope this helps. This is a big question. And I can tell you’re working through a lot of big stuff. So we would like an update. Please keep us posted!

Corinne

You’re doing a great job.

Virginia

Yes. 

Corinne

I’m gonna read the next one as well. 

Q: My daughter is in fifth grade. At school she’s often given food in addition to what she brings for her lunch and snacks. Candy is handed out as an incentive. Snacks, as well as non-edible items, are available to purchase with Classroom Bucks earned for good behavior. Several days a week she has after school activities that include a good deal of snacking. For the most part, I’ve accepted that I have no control over what she eats when she’s away from me. 

However, she is regularly coming home not hungry for the dinner I’ve prepared. It’s becoming more frequent lately that she’ll snack so much at school, and at after school activities, that she will eat only a couple bites of dinner, and occasionally nothing at all. Dinners are usually meals she likes and she always has the opportunity to choose a backup option if she doesn’t. So I don’t think it’s an issue of filling up because she won’t get food she likes at dinner. She chooses and packs her own lunch and snack. We generally have a rule that if you put it on the grocery list, Mom will buy it, which is to say she has a lot of control of choice and regular access to candy and snack foods, both at home and in her lunch.

Is it diet culture to expect her to come to dinner ready to eat? Or is it valid for me to feel miffed that she’s already full? And yeah, I realize we’ll all have an off day or skip a meal once in a while. This is becoming a regular occurrence though.

Virginia

I don’t think it’s diet culture exactly. I think it’s performative parenting culture a little bit, where we are very tied to this idea that, again, the family dinner is this all-important cornerstone of the day, where we have to provide a certain kind of meal. And that it is only successful if our children eat the meal. If they participate in, and enjoy the meal. And even if we’re like, “they can choose how much they’re hungry for,” if they don’t want to eat it at all, it’s really hard.

I say this from extensive personal experience. It’s really hard to not feel like you failed because you’re like, “I just spent 40 minutes making this and you ate two bites and ran away.” 

But what I also want to say is: 9 out of 10 family dinners in my house involve one or both children eating two bites of the meal and running away. I think it’s very, very, very common at sort of all ages. And yes, it is often because they had a lot of snacks in the afternoon. Because that is when they were really hungry and needed to eat. And so my expectation that 5:30 or 6:00 pm is when we’re all going to sit down and eat this big meal together is out of line with the reality of at 3:30 or 4:30 pm, they are ravenous and need to eat. And so we’re just always going to have that mismatch and it is what it is. Nobody needs to feel bad.

Corinne

This relates back a little to the parent who’s feeling guilty about not cooking meals. It’s kind of the flip side where this parent is cooking meals and feeling bad about them.

Virginia

I also want to speak to the piece about food given out at school. I don’t love candy being handed out as an incentive in class. And that is not because I don’t want the kids eating the candy. It’s because I think it does play into making candy seem so special and coveted. And for kids who have more restrictive relationships with candy at home, I don’t feel like it’s helpful. Does that make sense? I don’t have a problem with there being a birthday party in class and everyone’s eating cupcakes or candy just being there, like if the teacher just wants to have a candy jar on their desk and kids can help themselves. But it’s layering on the messages about earning the candy that I really don’t love. Because diet culture is going to teach kids so many different ways that you have to earn your treats.

But I have not figured out a way to eradicate this practice from the American public school system. It’s a very common tactic. And I think teachers have very, very hard jobs and if handing out M&Ms for getting math problems right makes it easier to do their job? I don’t know, man, I think that’s where we are. 

Corinne

Yeah. 

Virginia

And if it’s happening in the context of, your child also has all this great regular access to candy and treats because like you said, you’re involving her in the grocery list and lunch packing and all that, then I don’t think it being handed out as an incentive is going to do that much damage.They can understand that at school, M&Ms are being given as a reward. And at home, there is a bag of M&Ms that I can just eat.

Corinne

With the teachers handing out candy as incentives, I’m worried more about the kids who are not getting candy as incentives.

Virginia

Oh, what a terrible message. That’s so sad. You did this wrong. No candy for you. It is tricky. And I mean, I don’t mind kids purchasing snacks with Classroom Bucks. That feels a little more diffuse to me. That’s giving them some independence. And after school activities should include snacks because the majority of children are starving after school. 

I think the key here is don’t demonize the way she’s eating because she’s getting her needs met. Just maybe take some pressure off yourself. If dinner is usually something she likes, if there’s an option to choose a backup option and she doesn’t, then she’s just not hungry. 

Corinne

And maybe that can take some of the pressure off dinner. Like maybe you just make a snack plate.

Virginia

Something simpler. Or make something you’re really excited to eat.

Corinne

Something you like! 

Virginia

That’s what I often do when I can tell the kids are not in like super dinner oriented phases. I’m like, Okay, then I’m picking what I want. And we also do a bedtime snack. And in fifth grade, she’s probably staying up late enough that she’s up a few hours after dinner. And if she was really hungry for dinner at 3pm, and then she wasn’t that hungry for real dinner at 6pm, by 8 or 9pm, she probably needs something before she goes to bed. 

Alright, should I read the next one? 

Q: My question is about restricting food, not for dietary reasons, but because of the financial and waste concerns. My spouse and I wince when we see our kids drowning their waffles in maple syrup and leaving a plateful of it, eating all the prepackaged expensive foods we try to save for their lunches and eating all the Girl Scout cookies so they don’t have to share them with a sibling.

I’ve told my kids that they never need to hide food, but I find them doing so in order to get the last of something like the Oreos they want to keep from their brother. I buy Oreos every time we go to the store, and our house has plenty of sweets and other snack foods, but eventually we will run out of things. How do we keep them out of the scarcity mindset while still dealing with the realities of eating with a family?

 I really feel you on the syrup. It’s so expensive. 

Corinne

I know I was thinking you’re basically watching your kid pour gold on their pancakes. 

Virginia

It’s so much. 

Corinne

I mean this whole question is relatable to me. I definitely had some anxiety growing up about like, I feel like my dad would always eat stuff that I wanted, like leftovers or like the last cookie or something, you know?

Virginia

Yeah, it’s really tricky because the bummer answer to this is: A finance-based scarcity mindset can be just as damaging as a diet-culture based scarcity mindset.

Corinne

So true. 

Virginia

Kids who grow up without enough to eat, or with this sort of ever-present worry about there being enough to eat often end up with some disordered eating stuff down the road, understandably, because when there is food, they’ll feel like, “I have to eat it all. Because I don’t know what I’m going to eat it again.” It’s totally logical. So this can be really tough. And I’m not sure from this question, if you are struggling to afford these foods? Is there a true food insecurity issue in your house? Or if it’s more just, you are on a budget. 

Corinne

You only go grocery shopping once a week and Oreos don’t last the whole week.

Virginia

So I’m not sure which one we’re dealing with. But I just want to say if affording food is really hard for you, then obviously, your first priority is getting whatever support you can around that. Which could be finding out if you’re eligible for SNAP benefits, making sure your kids are on the school lunch program, all the stuff that I am sure you are already doing. And don’t need me to explain to you.

If it’s more just the “Good God, that was a $9 bottle of syrup” moment, I think it’s okay to say to kids, “This is a more expensive food.” So we’re going to be mindful of that. With syrup, if you have little ramekins or bowls, you can say, “We’re going to give everyone their own syrup.” And pour generously! Don’t flood the plate the way they would flood the plate, but pour generously enough so that every kid feels like they have their own and they don’t have to share it.

We do this sometimes with something like brownies. Or if we have cake or some dessert that we don’t have as often. When I know the kids are going to be really excited about it, I often will just go ahead and portion it out. Not because I’m trying to control how much they eat. But because I want them to know, “I’m definitely getting mine.” 

This actually just happened with Cadbury Mini Eggs, which are just a prime example of a scarcity mindset food because you can only get them for a month a year and they’re the best candy. It’s so hard! Dan brought home a big family-size bag from the grocery store. And between me and the girls, it was gone by the next night and he was like, “Really? Really? There are none left?” I think he was mad he didn’t get any. But I was like, “Yeah, no there are none left.” I know that you thought that was a big bag, but we haven’t had these in ages and we’re all real jazzed about it.

Corinne

You need to start portioning out some for Dan.

Virginia

I suppose that would have been nice of me. 

Corinne

So if you’re portioning out the brownie—what does that mean? Like you cut the brownies into four squares and give everyone a square? 

Virginia

I usually give everyone two squares because I feel one brownie is never enough.

Corinne

Oh, you cut them into normal sized pieces. 

Virginia

Oh yes. I just cut up the brownies. But rather than put the pan of brownies in the middle of the table, which might make everyone worry, like, “Am I going to get the piece I want?” Especially because, in my household, center-of-the-pan brownies are highly coveted. It’s a whole thing.  So I’ll just go ahead and be like, “Here’s your center brownie.” So they don’t have to be anxious about whether they’ll get one.

Maybe also, talk to your kids about which foods they worry about wanting the most. It’s useful to know what that is. So you can think about how to ease up that fear, in a way that is in line with your budget. But maybe the kid who’s hiding the Oreos, you buy them their own jumbo bag of Oreos and they don’t have to share. And maybe if that’s in your budget, you do that for a few weeks and see how that goes. And maybe every kid gets their own favorite snack food in that kind of quantity, which they don’t have to share with a sibling. And then it’s understood that all the other stuff is shared. It’s not teaching restriction or scarcity to say, “Okay, let’s make sure everyone has their seconds before you have thirds.” That’s manners. That’s okay. 

Corinne

Or to maybe just one week buy like super extra amounts of Oreos and be like, eat as many Oreos as you want this week. 

Virginia

And see what they do with that. That would be interesting.

Corinne

All right. Here’s a question for you: How comfortable are your Charlotte Stone clogs?

Virginia

They are comfortable for clogs, is what I would say. And I love clogs very much. But they are a little bit of a scam in that they are not actually the most comfortable shoe. So I do not equate them to sneakers. For sure sneakers are more comfortable. Birkenstocks are more comfortable. But I wear my Charlotte Stone clogs the way other people might wear a ballet flat, or a loafer, like a dressier shoe. And I feel like no dressy shoe is ever really that comfortable. They’re pinchy or they give you blisters. And so by that standard, these are quite comfortable. Because they have a built-in memory foam padding situation. So you’re not walking on a block of wood the way you are with some clogs. I feel like I got shin splints from those, back in the day. They’re definitely more comfortable than that. But I wore them downtown yesterday. And I did move my car to avoid walking two blocks because it was uphill. So I don’t wear them for extensive walking. 

Corinne

But you would say they’re more comfortable than some clogs?

Virginia

I think yes. Of the various cute clog brands.

Corinne

Fashion clogs.

Virginia

They are the most comfortable fashion clog I have tried and I have tried probably three or four brands. Like they’re better than Number Six. They’re better than Swedish Hasbeens. 

Corinne

My issue is that clogs are always too narrow for me. I can never find clogs that fit.

Virginia

Yeah, and I mean I have narrower feet, so I don’t know how useful Charlotte Stone is on that front.

Corinne

They do have a lot of sizing info. I tried some Charlotte Stone non-clogs, like they had a cute sneaker-ish thing, because they go up to size 12. Which should be what my size is, but they were way too narrow. Like I could not even get my foot in.

Virginia

That’s such a bummer. Somebody could get into the wide width clog market and do very well.

Corinne

Oh God, seriously. I found one clog that works for wide-ish feet. It’s called Haga Trotoffel or something.

Virginia

That sounded like a very accurate pronunciation. 

Corinne

I’ve had a pair, but it’s the non-padded pure wood kind. So it’s just not super comfortable to me.

Virginia

Those are rough. Ever since I sprained my ankle, I am very cautious. Where am I going to wear these clogs? What sort of terrain am I walking? I really want to find some cute ones with a strap at the back for more stability. I think Charlotte Stone has ones with a strap that I’m thinking about trying, except I don’t need more clogs. 

Corinne

Number Six also has some that are really cute and the base is almost flat. That might be more uncomfortable. I don’t know.

Virginia

Well I wear the lowest height Charlotte Stone clog. I do not go for their super platforms. I am not 22. That chapter of my life is closed. But they’re not a Dansko clog! Let’s be clear. And, I would say to be realistic that if you live on the east coast, or the Midwest, they’re like, a three month a year shoe. They’re great in the spring. They’re great in the fall. They’re going to be too hot in the summer and they’re going to be useless in the winter. So factor that in. 

Okay, so next up: 

Q: I have a question about chafing. Since giving birth for the second time in 2021, my body has changed and I probably fall in the small fat category. I’ve dealt with chafing between my thighs and in the summers before, but now that I have to wear outside clothes and get out of the house more, I am dealing with chafing in the groin area even in the winter, which is the thing I didn’t I don’t have prior experience with. I am looking for recommendations for underwear that have a wide enough gusset to hopefully prevent this. And any other tips to be more comfortable in this regard with this new body of mine? 

Corinne, you’re the underwear queen!

Corinne

I have a lot of thoughts about this.

Virginia

You are the resident Burnt Toast underwear expert.

Corinne

My first thought is: Are we sure this is a chafing issue? 

Virginia

Oh, what else could it be? 

Corinne

Well, another thing that can happen when you become fat is you get irritation in your skin folds area. So just something to throw out there, because I’ve heard people having confusion around that before. It’s like a yeast infection you can get in your skin folds. It’s like a diaper rash. And you can treat it with diaper rash cream or zinc cream.

Virginia

Aquaphor?

Corinne

No! Aquaphor? Isn’t Aquaphor like Vaseline?

Virginia

Yeah, but I used it on my kids’ butts when they had diaper rash. 

Corinne

Okay, well, maybe I don’t know anything about diaper rash.

Virginia

Maybe that was a bad move.

Corinne

I feel like a lot of diaper rash cream has zinc in it, and it coats your skin to protect it. 

Virginia

I know what you’re talking about now.

Corinne

In terms of wider gusset underwear, there are not a lot of good options. The one option that I have found out about which I have not tried but have ordered and am currently waiting on is this underwear from the brand Panty Drop. I’m kind of confused about what’s going on with them because it seems like they merged with another brand which was Kade & Vos. Okay. But they claimed to have wider gusset underwear. 

And another thing you could consider would be boxers or boxer briefs.

Virginia

I was wondering about even a boy’s short underwear. Something that has a longer thigh situation.

Corinne

It goes down further.

Virginia

Or bike shorts as underwear. 

Corinne

And I mean, people definitely make chafing shorts. 

Virginia

Yes! I just ordered some from Snag.

Corinne

People also like Thigh Society. So you could shop around and look for chafing shorts that you could just wear as underwear. 

Virginia

Right, just under your jeans or other hard pants, And where are you on MegaBabe or the other chafing balms? Do you have one you like?

Corinne

I have MegaBabe. I almost never need it. Just, whatever way that I’m designed, it’s not an issue for me right now. 

Virginia 

I get chafing but I haven’t tried MegaBabe. I actually have a very low tech hack. But I use Old Spice antiperspirant, which is my husband’s antiperspirant, and I use that as my antiperspirant. And so then I just put it between my thighs as well. And I find that holds up pretty well. I sometimes have to reapply it during the day, like on a very hot day. And one of the reasons I think I don’t wear dresses as much anymore is, chafing is an automatic reality in dresses. And some shorts too, depending on how they’re cut. So we feel you. This is a reality of fat life for sure! 

Corinne

If you have fat friends, you can talk to them about it because a lot of people have this problem.

VIrginia

It’s an evergreen conversation. Everyone will have opinions.

Corinne

Okay, next question: 

Q: Any tips on changing the dialogue with mom friends or friends in general who are progressive and informed otherwise, but still mired in diet culture? I feel like I’m the only one who isn’t intermittent fasting or doing keto.

Virginia

I posted a meme on Instagram today, there was something like to all the women who are bullying each other to order salads, aren’t you so sad that you hate your life so much. And my DMs are currently flooded with people asking some version of this question: How do I keep going out to dinner with my friends who are so in this space? One person was telling me about being out to dinner and this group of women were trying to split tacos. Like tacos are small to start with. And they were all like, “Well, I can’t eat a whole one.”

Corinne

I’m like, “Am I ordering 9 or 12.”

Virginia

Correct. The number of tacos I need to be full is a very high number. I would not split one in two. It’s already only two bites!

Corinne

It’s like trying to split a popsicle.

Virginia

It’s a total mess. So I feel like my first piece of advice is, can you make new friends? I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I know. 

Corinne

My first piece of advice is just like, Man up. Tell them you don’t want to talk about it.

Virginia

That’s better than mine.

Corinne

I mean, maybe it’s harsh. It’s a little tough love. Your advice is good too. There’s gotta be other people out there who are sick of this. Like, every person I know could benefit from some examination of their relationship with diet culture. So I just feel like, you can’t be the only one who’s struggling.

Virginia

There are almost 30,000 people subscribed to this newsletter, who probably feel the same way as you because why else are they reading the newsletter and listening to this podcast?.

Corinne

Okay. Actually, this is a little off topic. But can I tell you something? So, as previously discussed, I go to the gym. I have a trainer there. And this week, when I saw her, she was like, “Hey, so this person contacted me who found me through Burnt Toast.” 

Virginia

Yay! 

Corinne

So I’m just saying what that basically means is there is another person in the city that I live in, who’s reading Burnt tToast who I don’t know. And none of my friends know. 

Virginia

Right! But who maybe would be an awesome friend. 

Corinne

Or who at least also has some skepticism of diet culture stuff.  So that’s got to be true for you as well.

Virginia

And you have powerlifting in common! Yes, in my close group of friends, we really never talk about this. And maybe it’s because they read the newsletter and know that I’m not the friend for this. 

Corinne

They’re scared. 

Virginia

But we have so many better conversations because this is off the table for us. And we never made a conscious decision to do it. It just kind of happened. I do feel like in the past, we had more diet-y conversations. And we’ve all kind of shifted away from it. And it’s been lovely and great for our friendships. And so maybe you do need to officially say it to these people: I love you. But I just don’t want to talk about diets. This really isn’t good for me. I just end up feeling shitty about myself. And there are so many more interesting things to talk about here.

Corinne

Yeah. I think it’s good for people to know that too. If people are totally unaware that talking about their diets constantly is hurting people, then they should know. And they deserve to know that.

Virginia

Completely agree. And often this talk is very performative because we think we have to talk this way. And so you being the first one to say, “What if we just ordered what we wanted to eat and didn’t do this whole dance?” I call it like playing the game of Salad Chicken, where you’re like,“Could I order the pasta? No, not if she’s ordering the salad.” Like, if you could not do that? Man, dinner is gonna be way more fun. So just give people permission to not do it and see what happens. 

And if they really can’t get there, then I circle back to: Can you have other friends? Or can you say to them, I don’t want to spend our time talking about this but I’m really sorry you’re struggling and how can I support you?

Corinne

Oh my God, I love the idea of responding to someone who’s excited about intermittent fasting with, “I’m sorry, you’re struggling.”

Virginia

How can I support you in this starvation?

Corinne

I’m so sorry that you’re not eating food.

Virginia

You’re right. That might not be the moment.

Corinne

No, I like it. 

Virginia

I think it could work? I think it’s an option. 

Corinne

I mean, I think this is also that sort of situation where you can be like, “It’s so interesting that we’re all so focused on our weird diets.”

Virginia

The patented Corinne “It’s so interesting!”

Corinne

Just an anthropological, outsider observation.

Virginia

It’s always, always a good moment for that. All right. Should we do Butter? 

Corinne

Yes. I do have a Butter. What I want to recommend is this recipe called Trouble Cookies. It’s from a cookbook called Mother Grains, but it’s also on the Bon Appetit website. And I feel like it’s a little annoying to recommend because it does have a really annoying to find ingredient which is sorghum flour. 

[Reminder that if you preorder FAT TALK from Split Rock Books, you can also take 10 percent off any book mentioned on the podcast!]

Virginia

Oh Lord.

Corinne

But you can order it from the internet!

Virginia

Corinne will find a link for you.

Corinne

Bob’s Red Mill’s has it. So if you have that kind of grocery store. Anyways, they also have coconut cashews and toffee bits and are extremely delicious. I’ve been trying to get my mom to make them for like a month and now I’m moving on to the Burnt Toast community. Please make Trouble Cookies and tell me how good they are.

Virginia

I will try them. I will report back if I can get it together to get sorghum flour. I could use a new cookie. We’re just a standard chocolate chip cookie household. 

Corinne

I feel like chocolate chip cookies are good. But sometimes, a different direction is really good, too. 

Virginia

Is there chocolate in it? 

Corinne

No, it’s coconut toffee bits cashews.

Virginia

Could I put chocolate chips in instead of the toffee bits.

Corinne

I mean, I feel like you could? But it’s really good. Do you not like caramel-y, coconut-y stuff?

Virginia

Amy will tell you it is very hard for me to have a dessert that doesn’t have chocolate in it.

Corinne

Okay, this one is not for you. 

Virginia

I’m just always like, but where’s the chocolate? 

Corinne

Oh my God.

Virginia

What am I doing here?

Corinne

 I’m the opposite. And I mean, I really like chocolate. But I also really like a coconut-y caramel-y vibe. 

Virginia

I do too. I’m just like, but how much better if there was chocolate. That’s all I’m saying.

Corinne

I feel like maybe you could dip it in chocolate? 

Virginia

All right. I don’t know. I’ll try them out. I’ll report back. Maybe I’ll do half the batch with the toffee, half the batch with the chocolate chips. I can tell you my kids won’t touch them if there’s no chocolate. So that’s like a non-starter. 

Corinne

Really? Wow.

Virginia

Oh, please. 

Corinne

I feel like a lot of kids don’t like chocolate. 

Virginia

That is not the case in the Sole-Smith home. See previous anecdote regarding Mini Eggs consumed in a day. And center brownies. It’s very clear what we’ve come here to do.

Corinne

All right, what’s your Butter?

Virginia

All right, my Butter is, I am breaking up with underwire bras. Breaking news. 

Corinne

This is big news. 

Virginia

You’ve all been wondering. I’m not totally breaking up with them because I haven’t quite found a non-underwire bra that works under every outfit. Because there can be a uniboob situation? But I have recently purchased some non-underwire bras. And I realize now that I don’t know how I made it through the whole pandemic while still wearing underwire bras every day. Every day!

Corinne

Me neither! I feel like when we originally talked about bras on a mailbag episode, I recommended the bras that you ended up getting.

Virginia

The True & Co bras? 

Corinne

Yes! And you were like, “Oh, never heard of them.” 

Virginia

Well, you influenced me. And then Marielle Elizabeth really influenced me. And I bought a bunch of them and they’re awesome.

Corinne

They’re really good. The sizing is super flexible. I can wear anywhere from a 1x to a 3x. And I have a big chest.

Virginia

You do have to look for the full cup. Because I ordered some that were like a half cup and they do not work if you are someone with a big chest. 

Corinne

Yes, they have full cups and regular cups. 

Virginia

So you have to look for the full cup. I can only find them on Amazon right now. I don’t know. 

Corinne

They’re only on Amazon now. 

Virginia

It’s really irritating. I would like there to be other options. But the other one I’m wearing a lot of, is I have some of the Paloma bras from Girlfriend Collective. And actually, this one isn’t the Paloma, it’s the high necked? I don’t know. But I like it because it feels just like a tank. 

Yeah, I don’t know why it’s taken me so long to get here. I will be 42 a few weeks after you hear this episode. It’s taken me a while. But now, I realize that I don’t have to accept permanent marks on the side of my body from bras. Like what was I doing? I think I thought I really needed more structure. I’ll unpack it all in an essay at some point. But for now, I just want to report the liberation that I am wearing underwire bras much less frequently. And it’s delightful. 

Corinne

I love that. 

Virginia

All right. Thank you all so much for listening to Burnt Toast!

Corinne

If you’d like to support the show, please subscribe for free in your podcast player and leave us a rating or review. These really help folks find the show.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off! 

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay and it’s time for your Indulgence Gospel!

We’ll be getting into:

* How to navigate it when you’re taking a semaglutide for your health but your kids are noticing your weight loss?

* Fat fashion

* Some good old fashioned hate mail

* And Corinne got a tattoo!

This is a paywalled episode. That means to hear the whole thing you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $7 per month or $70 for the year.

If you’re already a paid subscriber, you can add on a subscription to Big Undies, Corinne’s newsletter about clothes, for 20% off.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off! 

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Today Virginia is chatting with Angel Austin and Ani Janzen from the Association for Size Diversity and Health. 

To tell us YOUR thoughts, and to get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page. 

If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber — subscriptions are just $5 per month! —to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. 

And don’t forget to check out our Burnt Toast Podcast Bonus Content! 

Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she and her guests give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.

FAT TALK is out! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.

CREDITS

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. Follow Virginia on Instagram, Follow Corinne  @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing and subscribe to Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism. 

It's our September bonus episode! And we're trying out a new format: Virginia's Office Hours, where a Burnt Toast subscriber comes on the pod to chat with Virginia about fatphobia, diet culture, parenting and health. Our first guest is Serena, who is trying to navigate family gatherings while in eating disorder recovery—but her relatives aren't just diet-y, they are diet culture creators. 

If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Substack.

If you are not a paid subscriber, you'll only get the first chunk. To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to go paid. It's just $5 a month or $50 for the year—and you get the first week free!

This episode does contain some discussion of eating disorders, eating disorder recovery, and family medical crisis. If any of that wouldn't be good for you to listen to, please take care of yourself and give this one a miss.

Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.

BUTTER & OTHER LINKS

Want to come on Virginia's Office Hours? Please use this form.

Virginia has previously discussed her daughter's medically necessary (but awful!) fat-free diet in this episode. 

Serena recommends this poem by spoken word poet Andrea Gibson. 

CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter.

Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.

This week, Virginia chats with with Hilary Kinavey and Dana Sturtevant, cofounders of the Center for Body Trust, and authors of a new book out this week, Reclaiming Body Trust: A Path to Healing and Liberation.

If you'd like to support Burnt Toast, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And considering becoming a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. It's just $5 per month or $50 for the year. Producing a weekly podcast requires a significant investment of time and resources from several talented people. Paid subscriptions make all of our work possible and enable us to offer an honorarium to expert guests, which is key to centering marginalized voices in this space.

Post-Publication Note: Dana let us know after this episode aired that credit for this episode title (which she also quotes in the conversation below) belongs to Dr. Crystal Jones. We apologize for not properly attributing that during the conversation.

BUTTER & OTHER LINKS

We're getting ready to do another AMA episode soon. And we need your questions! Put them here, so we stay organized. 

Hilary and Dana were on the Dear Sugars podcast

Virginia previously interviewed them for a Health Magazine piece

One of the frameworks Hilary and Dana use is Barbara Love’s liberatory consciousness, which is something they learned from Desiree Adaway and Ericka Hines.

Nonbinary psychologist and Body Trust provider Sand Chang contributed to their book.

Hilary is obsessed with the show on Apple TV called Home and her dog Arrow. 

Dana is obsessed with her hot tub, heated or not, and English muffins from Sparrow Bakery.

Virginia and her lower back are obsessed with this $29 heating pad from Target

CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter.

Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.

This week, we revisit an old episode of Comfort Food where Virginia Sole-Smith and Amy Palanjian chat with Lisa Du Breuil, an incredible fat activist and clinical social worker who specializes in eating disorders and addiction. They discuss sugar addiction and how to navigate endless treats with your kids.

If you'd like to support Burnt Toast, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And considering becoming a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. It's just $5 per month or $50 for the year. Producing a weekly podcast requires a significant investment of time and resources from several talented people. Paid subscriptions make all of our work possible and enable us to offer an honorarium to expert guests, which is key to centering marginalized voices in this space.

CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter.

Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

This week, Virginia chats with Dana Miranda, a certified educator in personal finance and the founder of Healthy Rich, a platform for inclusive budget-free financial education. Check out her podcast and her Substack newsletter, Founder Notes.

If you'd like to support Burnt Toast, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And considering becoming a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. It's just $5 per month or $50 for the year. Producing a weekly podcast requires a significant investment of time and resources from several talented people. Paid subscriptions make all of our work possible and enable us to offer an honorarium to expert guests, which is key to centering marginalized voices in this space.

BUTTER & OTHER LINKS

Virginia found Dana through this great Culture Study interview. 

Dana recommends literal burnt toast with butter, and also playing the flute.

Virginia recommends the Maui Mat. 

CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter.

Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.

Today, Virginia is chatting with Julia Turshen. Julia is a New York Times best-selling cookbook author. Her latest book is Simply Julia, she writes a fantastic newsletter, and she’s the host and producer of the podcast, Keep Calm and Cook On. Julia lives in the Hudson Valley, with her spouse Grace and their pets. And she teaches live cooking classes every Sunday afternoon. Follow her on Instagram: @Turshen.

If you'd like to support the show, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And considering becoming a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. It's just $5 per month or $50 for the year. Producing a weekly podcast requires a significant investment of time and resources from several talented people. Paid subscriptions make all of our work possible and enable me to offer an honorarium to expert guests, which is key to centering marginalized voices in this space.

BUTTER & OTHER LINKS
Virginia and Julia talk about a presentation that Julia recently gave at the Culinary Institute of America about fatphobia and diet culture in the food industry.

Julia's Butter is the Body Liberation Hiking Club. Find them on Instagram and Facebook.

Virginia's Butter is cutting up the cheese before you serve it, the way Julia taught her.

CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter.

Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.

They're dealing with a consumer that they've never marketed to before and they don't really have the tools to do that. They don't know what's going to speak to that consumer. And it's also fatphobia, right? Because the brand doesn't want to center fat people as their customer. So they have to put everybody together in order for it to be okay. 

You're listening to Burnt Toast. This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.

Today I am chatting once again with the fantastic Mia O'Malley. Mia is content creator on Instagram and Tiktok (@MiaOMalley and @plussizebabywearing). Mia has been on the show before, so you’re probably already a big fan. I asked her back today because we needed to have a deep dive conversation about everything happening at Old Navy with plus size clothing.

Also! Substack has asked us to try out a new format for this episode. Paid subscribers, you’re getting the full audio and full transcript, below. (So nothing has changed, just consider this your July bonus episode!)

Free list folks: You’re getting the first chunk of my conversation with Mia (both audio and transcript), but if you would like the full version, you’ll need to become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber.

Reader subscriptions enable me to pay guests like Mia for their time and labor, so please, consider investing in these conversations if this is work you care about. 

When you get full access to my conversation with Mia, you’ll get way more juicy details on the whole Old Navy situation. And you’ll find out the two brands we think are doing a surprisingly GOOD job on plus size clothes right now. I bet it’s not who you think! 

PS. You voted and the results are in: We’ll be reading ESSENTIAL LABOR by Angela Garbes for the August Burnt Toast Book Club! Mark your calendars for Wednesday, August 31 at 12pm Eastern.

Episode 55 Transcript

Virginia

Hi Mia. So we'll start by reminding listeners who you are and what you do.

Mia

I'm Mia O'Malley. I'm a content creator on Instagram. I have my account @MiaOMalley where I share a lot of resources for fat and plus sized people and some of my own style and life. And then I have an account called @plussizebabywearing on Instagram and I'm @plussizebabywearing on TikTok.

Virginia

Last time, we had a pretty wide-ranging conversation where we talked about the intersection of fat activism and momfluencing, about finding a fat-friendly health care provider—all sorts of stuff. But this time, we have a very specific mission. When this news story broke, I was in the middle of writing my book, and I had no time to think about it, but you were on it. Your Instagram is this amazing resource. And I was like, Thank God, Mia will come on and explain to us what is happening with Old Navy and plus size clothing. I mean, it's a mess. How did this all start? 

Mia

So in August of 2021, old Navy launched what they called BODEQUALITY, and it was like, “the democracy of style.” They were going to offer sizes 0 to 30 and XS to 4x at the same price and then they would have it in 1200 stores. And they would be rolling out sizes 0 to 28 with no special plus size section. They also wanted us to know that there were going to be mannequins size 12 and 18. The CEO of Old Navy said, “It's not a one time campaign. It's a full transformation of our business and service to our customers, based on years of working closely with them to research their needs.” The marketing campaign included a TV commercial with Aidy Bryant from SNL and Shrill.

Virginia

So, none of this was subtle. This was a very full-throated, “We are here for plus sizes.”

Mia

Well, yes and no. The campaign was not subtle, but the campaign was also confusing. So many people did not even realize what BODEQUALITY meant.

Virginia

Well, they made up that word. 

Mia

And they made sure to include all diverse body types which, in general, is great. But it's part of a watered down body positivity, where we're not really getting to the heart of the matter and helping the people that are marginalized, that need to be helped and need to be lifted up. A lot of people did not recognize that this campaign meant that plus sizes were being carried in stores. It included people of “diverse body types,” it said “democracy of fashion.” But what does this really mean to someone? Does this mean that I can get my size in your store? It's not really clear.

This is me editorializing, but I just think: We couldn't have a campaign that was just for fat people. We have to do it adjacent to thin people.

Virginia

It gives them this cover, because they're using this aspirational rhetoric, instead of saying explicitly, “We have screwed over fat customers.”

Mia

Exactly. It just was not clear enough to the fat consumer that they were going to be able to access their clothes in store. It was muddled in the same way that body positivity gets muddled when we don't talk about the people that really should be centered in the movement.

But as someone who has been critical of Old Navy in the past, even I wanted BODEQUALITY to work. We wanted it to be an example for other retailers and brands, that that this could be something they could do. Even though I had messages in my DMs talking about issues folks were seeing, I didn't really want to talk about it at first, because I wanted to see how far it would go.

Well, less than a year later the Wall Street Journal reported that Old Navy would be pulling extended sizes from their stores. That article is a whole other thing that we can get into, too, because it's its own beast. 

Virginia

Yeah, so that's what just happened, which blew this all up. It looked like they were blaming their sales dropping on the fact that they had added more plus sizes to the stores. That was the story out there, right?

Mia

Yes, that's right. Suzanne Kapner—she wrote the article called “Old Navy Made Clothing Sizes for Everyone. It Backfired.” 

Virginia

I will say quickly, as a journalist, the headline is not Suzanne's fault. We never get to pick our headlines. However, the article itself is also problematic as you can now explain.

Mia

There are a few issues with the article. Most specifically, it doesn't include comments from anyone in Old Navy corporate. They took quotes from other interviews that they had done, but Old Navy didn't comment on this article itself. So a lot of what they had was attributions to someone who worked in the store, a PR person, a city analyst—different things. They also have this quote from Diane Von Furstenberg, who spoke at the the Future of Everything Festival and they put that front and center.

Virginia

So all we really know is that Old Navy sales dropped, right? We don't really know why, or whether it is reasonable to blame that on plus sizes.

Mia

Correct. First of all, they did not give this even a year to work. The CEO, Sonya Syngal, said on an earnings call that they “overestimated demand in stores” and they launched too broadly. They "over-planned larger sizes, with customer demand under-pacing supply. Someone else in Old Navy corporate said it was “a realigning of store inventory.” Which is not at all what the article says but sort of points to, they had an inventory problem.

Virginia

Which, it's been a pandemic! Everyone shifted to online shopping. They haven't yet gotten the customers back in the stores, period. Getting inventory right, regardless of sizing, is sort of a moving target right now.

Mia

What we're hearing from customers at Old Navy though, is they weren't even aware that plus sizes were in stores. That’s possibly because of the way that these stores are laid out. They took away or they didn't have a plus size section for a long time. But the plus size shopper is used to going to a specific section for their clothing. In this “democratizing of fashion,” Old Navy put everything together. And in some cases that made it harder for people to actually find their size. You had a lot of packed racks. You've had people struggling to find their sizes across the board.

I'm also hearing that although Old Navy says that they went to great lengths to look at their fit when they did this inclusive sizing, that the fits are completely off for many, many items. So, Old Navy denim that people were used to buying for years, totally changed. People's sizes completely changed. Rockstar jeans, which they had been buying for over a decade, are now a completely different size. And in many cases, people were having to size up two or three sizes thinking that their body has changed in some drastic way, when really Old Navy sizing, completely changed in many items. 

Virginia

That makes me wonder how inclusive they really intended to be.

I think it's important for people to recognize that no matter how fascinated you might be by a Black person’s hair, we are not an exhibit or curiosity.

You're listening to Burnt Toast. This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith, and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.

Today I am speaking with anti-racism activist, writer, and educator Sharon Hurley Hall. Sharon is firmly committed to doing her part to eliminate racism as the founder and curator in chief of Sharon's Anti-Racism Newsletter, one of my favorite Substacks. Sharon writes about existing while Black in majority white spaces and amplifies the voices of other anti-racism activists. Sharon is also the head of anti-racism and a special advisor for the Diverse Leaders Group.

I asked Sharon to come on the podcast to talk about a piece she wrote on the newsletter a few weeks ago about the CROWN act, Black hair, and the ways in which white people perpetrate racism against Black people for their hair. We also get into how to talk about hair and skin color differences with your kids, which I found super, super helpful and I think you will, too.

If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe, rate and review us in your podcast player! It’s free and a great way to help more folks find the show.

And! It’s time to decide what we should read for the next Burnt Toast Book Club!

I’ve culled through all of your suggestions and narrowed it down to these five (mostly because the Substack poll-maker limits me to five choices). I was going to stick with fiction because it’s summer and I’m in beach read mode, but I made an exception for Angela Garbes because, it’s Angela Garbes. (Which is to say, if we don’t pick her for August, we’ll do it for September or October!) You have until the end of this week to vote. I’ll announce the pick on Tuesday. (The discussion thread will go live Wednesday, August 31 at 12pm Eastern!)

Episode 54 Transcript

Virginia

Hi Sharon! Why don't we start by having you tell my listeners a little more about yourself and your work?

Sharon

Okay, so I am an anti-racism writer and educator, a former journalist, and I have been writing about anti-racism-related stuff for longer than it appears. I actually wrote my first article in 2016, but I wasn't doing it consistently. I launched an anti-racism newsletter in 2020. So it's just been going for just about two years now. In it, I share my perspectives as a global citizen. I was born in England, I grew up in the Caribbean, I lived in England as an adult. I visited the US. I lived in France. I've been in a lot of places, and I've experienced racism everywhere. And so I bring that lens to what I write about. You know, quite often we think what we're experiencing is the only way it's being experienced or is unique to the location that we're in. And my experience is that there's a lot of commonality in how these things operate in different places. 

Virginia

Oh, that's so interesting. I have British and American citizenship, but I've lived my whole life in America. And I definitely tend to think of racism as this very American issue. But as you're saying that, I'm realizing how incredibly reductive that is. Although Americans certainly are a big part of the problem. 

Sharon

Yes, but—or yes and, I suppose. Let's not forget that all of this started with the British people—well, British and Europeans—who colonized everywhere.

Virginia

Sure did. Yup. Absolutely. 

Sharon

There are many places besides the USA that share this history of enslavement. Barbados and the Caribbean being among those places. So there are similarities, there are commonalities, I think. It operates in a particularly American way, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in other places. Because it does. It's sometimes less visible. And of course, because so many other places don't have a gun culture, you're less likely to end up dead as a Black person, even if people are being racist towards you. 

Virginia

Yes. We add that extra layer of things.

Well, I am having you here today to talk about a piece of American legislation because you wrote a really excellent piece for your newsletter. I want everyone to subscribe to your newsletter and to be supporting your work. Often you're putting things on my radar that I have missed and I just really appreciate the education that you do. This was a piece you wrote recently on the CROWN Act, which I have to admit I wasn't even aware of as something that was happening. So for starters, for folks who aren't who aren't familiar with this, can you tell us a little bit about what the CROWN act is and what inspired it? 

Sharon

The CROWN Act stands for Create a Respectful and Open World for Natural hair. I believe it was (first) sponsored by State Senator Holly Mitchell from California. And then other states have since passed similar laws. There is also a federal act, which was passed by the House earlier this year.

The idea is that Black people should be able to wear their natural hair, and not have it be a problem. In all post-enslavement societies, in all post-colonial societies, in many white majority places, the way that our hair grows out of our head is a problem for people. It can be seen as not professional. There are all sorts of ancient ideas about what Black people's hair is and isn't, that play into the way that it is treated. It's not just about being able to wear your hair, the respect piece is important as well. Because you'd be surprised how often—I mean, I worked in England for 15 years and there were people that would come and say, “Ooh, your hair! Let me…” (For those listening, I am running my hands through my hair.) “Your hair,” you know, “It feels so different. Let me…”

Virginia

Like it’s okay to touch you. 

Sharon

It's okay to just touch my hair. So there has historically been this thing where Black people's natural hair, and all the various styles that we put our hair in, were not seen as worthy of respect, were not seen as professional, were not seen as acceptable. All of that comes out of that whole white supremacist ideology.

Virginia

What I really appreciated in your piece is you explain why the ability to have legal redress for microaggressions is obviously really important, given this really problematic history that you've just sketched out for us. But you also wrote, “Why the hell do we need to legislate for Black people to enjoy autonomy over our hair?” So, talk a little more about that piece.

Sharon

White supremacy has weaponized Black hair in many ways. It's been a matter of control that extended to using hair as evidence of the reasons why Black people deserve to be enslaved, because our hair was seen as like wool, animal-like, somehow bestial, somehow not right. You could think of the Tignon Laws, which I think were in Louisiana, where Black women's hair was supposed to be covered. Because otherwise the white guys would not be able to control themselves. There was this idea of overt sexuality, as well.

Virginia

That being your problem to control as opposed to…

Sharon

Yes, our problem that they needed to control. Black women and Black people being what they are, we've made lemonade out of lemons. That's why you get these fabulous headdresses and head ties and so on. They look absolutely wonderful. But you know, the the original idea was to control it, to cover it up, to hide anything that would make us look more human and more beautiful. Often in the past, women have been encouraged to cover themselves up so that they don't get assaulted. This is another facet of that.

As I've said, I don't know any Black person who's worked in a white majority space, especially a woman, who has not had some white person in their office space, make free with their hair. And you know, I would not do the same if the situation were reversed. I want to add something here, which is that a lot of white people say, “Oh, I went to a country in Asia, and people were fascinated by my straight blonde hair.” And I say, that is not the same thing, because the history is different. The agency that you have historically had over your own body is different. Coming out of a culture where we have not had that agency, somebody putting their hands in our hair lands very differently. 

Virginia

Yeah, absolutely. It's always going to be a different experience. But you're right, people do make that comparison. I would imagine also there's some comparisons to when you're pregnant and people feel like they can touch your stomach. And that is also very violating. But that's a finite experience. You're only going to be in that mode for nine months. I'm not saying it's okay that it happens, it shouldn't happen. But this is something Black people are being asked to navigate daily, without other people adjusting. 

Sharon

I just actually want to address that particular because: Imagine if you're a Black pregnant woman.

Virginia

Oh god, yes.

Sharon

Because I was a Black pregnant woman. So people would be putting their hands in my hair, but they'd also be touching my belly. That felt extremely violating. 

Virginia

Yes, it is. I mean, it just is.

Sharon

And in a way that I couldn't even fully articulate at the time as to why it bothered me so much. But I know now why it bothered me so much. 

Virginia

Do you mind sharing a little bit about how you do navigate those moments?

Sharon

At the time when it used to happen most often, I was not often in a position to navigate that safely. Because people would then regard me as being the problem, regard me as being the angry Black woman, regard me as making something out of nothing. Now I would be in a position to say something like, “Because of the history of enslavement, this does not feel good to me. This feels like a violation.” And I could say it as plainly as that.

And I think if you said it like that people would would pause and think about it. I've not often had the chance to do that, but it's definitely something that I would do the next time it happens. And of course, you know, the other weapon is a glare. A glare, the right kind of glare. Sometimes you can see someone coming towards you and you just give them that look and they think better of it. It's the bomb look, the look that you give your kid when they're about to do something that's really problematic and you don't even want to have to talk about it and it stops them in their tracks. Sometimes you need to pull that look out.

Virginia

You need that look. I mean, and again, not to equate the experiences, but I did notice that getting touched while pregnant happened much less the second time. I think because I had learned that look a little. I think I was much clearer with the nope, you're not allowed in this space.

I was wondering if we could also talk a bit about texturism, that’s a concept you hit on in that piece as well. How do white people perpetrate this, and also how does it play out within the Black community?

Sharon

Okay, so I'm going to start with the second question first. This is another offshoot of enslavement, of that white supremacist ideal and ideology. The societies that we grew up in that say that “white is right” and that's what you aspire to. And it is true that in those times and even subsequently, if you had lighter skin, if you were closer to looking European, you had more opportunities open to you. One of the ways this revealed itself was in your hair. So you will hear people—I mean, I certainly did when I was growing up. I would hear older people talk about good hair, right? And good hair meant it had a little wave in it, it was closer to what they would think of as European hair. This happens in Black majority Caribbean countries, in Black communities all around the world, and in so many post-colonial spaces. 

What is also interesting is that many white people feel more comfortable with those people that they see as having more proximity to them, than the people that are darker skinned, that they see as having less proximity to them. I'm not sure they're always consciously aware of it, but I know that it does happen. For example, you can look at things like casting in films and TV series, and who gets what kind of roles. Where are the darker skinned people? What kind of roles do they get? What do the lighter skinned people with the wavy hair get? Who are the people that are representing Black people in the ads? Who are the models?

I mean, it's not 100 percent that way, but if you were to look at it, you would see that there's definitely this idea that having that wavy hair texture, and that lighter skin can buy you some additional visibility and acceptability. So, it plays out in what hair is deemed acceptable and professional within the Black community and beyond the Black community. 

Virginia

I'm thinking, as you mentioned casting, how even when a very dark-skinned Black person is cast in a role, it's then the subject of, “look at how we're breaking ground, look at what a big deal this is.” It has to be this huge conversation because it's so rare. So the assumptions prove the rule here, because you're still in a place where that's news, when that shouldn't be news.

I'm hoping we can also talk a little bit about how to navigate this conversation with our kids, because I do think hair—and of course skin color, as well—is often one of those physical differences that little kids—I'm thinking like three, five, seven year olds—will notice and point out about people when they meet them. And often white parents have this instinct to rush in with, “That's not nice, don't say anything.” And, maybe they're speaking in terms of “don't comment on that person's body, because that's rude.” But it also reinforces to white kids, that there's something wrong with Black hair, that this is something we can't talk about, that this is off limits in some way. 

Sharon

I remember when I was living in France and I was driving somewhere with a white friend and her kid who was maybe three or four at the time. He was fascinated by the fact that my skin was a different color. So he asked if I'd stayed out in the sun too long. And his mother was absolutely mortified. And I laughed, because, you know, he was three or four, he wasn't coming at it from a hurtful point of view. And I explained that people had different skin color. That's just how we are.

I often think when you're dealing with these things, going with the factual is the way to go. A recognition that the differences exist, but no suggestion that they mean something positive or negative in terms of how we interact with those people, you know? You have to, at the same time, avoid suggesting that there's something negative about having darker skin or Black skin, but also avoid suggesting that there's something particularly positive about having white skin. You have to do both things. Because kids are going to notice, kids are going to see it. I think for young, very young kids, that kind of thing doesn't matter to them. We have to not shy away from the fact that there are aspects of society that are going to see these things as major differences and treat people differently. But we can also teach them that this is not something that they themselves have to do or perpetuate. 

Virginia

So in that moment, what would you have wished your friend had said to her kid? It sounds like you handled it beautifully, but it shouldn't be your job to handle it. What do you want white parents to be doing?

Sharon

Definitely not to come down on the kid like a ton of bricks, suggesting that they've done something wrong in even asking the question. Possibly reframing the question. Parents have to educate themselves so that when they get these questions, they have the answers. Because I don't know that that particular parent would have even known what to say or how to explain it. 

Virginia

I think often, the reason we panic is because we are having our own stuff called out, we're suddenly realizing, Oh, I don't have the right language for this. And that's on me. I should have done that work.

Sharon

If you're going to raise anti-racist kids, you have to be an anti-racist parent. And that doesn't mean that you're not going to make mistakes. It means that you recognize that this is the route that we have to travel for all our humanity. And for equality and equity for all.

Virginia

Another way I get asked this question often is how to respond if your three year old says, “Why is that lady so fat?” You know, comments on body size, and I always go with something like, “Bodies come in all different shapes and sizes—”

Sharon

—And colors!

Virginia

And colors! Hair comes in all different colors and styles and, you know, hair comes in different textures. You can just normalize that without getting into some intense thing about it. 

Sharon

Especially for young kids. You have different conversations with your kids about things like this at different ages. If your kid is three, you don't necessarily have to give them the whole history of colonialism, you know? If your kid is 12, that might be different. 

Virginia

You should be doing that, absolutely. 

Sharon

Exactly. Because we we teach our kids at a very young age about stranger danger and unwanted touching. And it's a good time to say that that also extends to touching people's skin and hair when they have not asked for it. I think that is something that would fit very nicely with that lesson, right? 

Virginia

Yeah, to just say, “No one can touch your body without permission. You don't touch other people's bodies without permission.”

Sharon

Exactly.

Virginia

And fortunately, young children will give you plenty of opportunities to reinforce that.

Sharon 

Because they're curious. They're always, you know, sticking their hands in things.

Virginia

Black hair is obviously such a huge topic. What haven't I asked you that you think is really important for us to be thinking about? 

Sharon

I think it's important for people to recognize that no matter how fascinated you might be by a Black person’s hair, we are not an exhibit or curiosity. Just don't touch the hair. You know, just don't touch the hair. Some people are so traumatized by it, even if you asked to touch the hair, they'd still be upset. We're coming out of a history where Black people for centuries had no agency. Where in some countries, we were put on display. And those very features that you now want to treat as a curiosity were the things that were displayed.

So, it's not just about it being wrong in this moment, it's all the generational trauma that is awakened by that. So it's really best avoided. Google is available, if you want to find out more. If you have a real Black friend—and I'm not talking about somebody you work with that you don't even sit with at lunchtime. I'm talking about somebody that's actually in your life—then maybe you can have those more in depth conversations with that person. But if we're talking about your colleagues and casual acquaintances, for best results, just keep your hands out of their hair.

I was just going to add that from the point of view of your workplace, what you can do is you can look at what your policies say and make sure that they are equitable in terms of what's seen as professional. Do your bit to change things where you are. 

Virginia

That's a great idea. And I just wanted to share your rage for a moment that it is 2022 and we are having to say don't touch people's hair. And we are having to pass laws to protect people from this. I mean, it is astounding to me that body autonomy is not more of a—well, I live in the United States where they're taking bodily autonomy away in so many different ways right now. 

Sharon

You know, if you think about how the country started, it started by taking stuff away from the people that were here. It started by taking autonomy away from the Black people they brought in. It started in a time when women didn't have very many rights at all. Yeah, and all of this was still the case at the point when the country became the country.

Virginia

Right. 

Sharon

So maybe it's time to rethink what the country is and should be and could be, instead of going back to what was the norm in 1776.

Virginia

 Which protected only one type of person. 

Sharon

I mean, exactly, exactly. It's the 21st century, we should be beyond that. 

Virginia

Definitely. Well, I so appreciate you giving us this education, taking the time to talk through this issue more. I think it's one that all of us can be doing better on. And encouraging us to think about how it's playing out in our workplaces, and our kids’ schools, all of that.

Butter for Your Burnt Toast

Virginia

We wrap up every podcast with my butter for your burnt toast segment. This is where we give a fun recommendation of something we are loving or learning from right now. So Sharon, what's your butter?

Sharon

Well, the funny thing about it, it's a little bit of a self promotion, in a way, because I've just started a new gig at Diverse Leaders Group, a brand new startup as the head of anti-racism. Our aim is to identify development support leaders at all levels. That's anyone wanting to lead the way to equality in their own lives and for their communities. We're starting with anti-racist leaders. So I'm pumped about developing community support and educational resources to help people really live anti-racism and create a more equal world for everybody. 

Virginia

That's fantastic. My recommendation, related to our conversation about Black hair, is a kid's book that my both my daughters have really loved over the years called Don't Touch My Hair by Sharee Miller. It is a great story of a Black girl who has amazing hair and everybody when she walks down the street wants to touch it, and she doesn't like it. She uses her voice to tell people to stop and they have to listen.

We talked about how with your three year old, you're not gonna explain all of colonialism, but you can start to talk to your three and four year old about how Black kids have to deal with this and your straight hair doesn't attract the same attention. So that was a conversation I wanted to be having with them. But they also relate so deeply to this experience of a kid getting unwanted attention, and how do you sort of say your body is yours, and so there's certainly a universal theme, as well as it being a great way to have this conversation and help kids understand this issue. So I wanted to recommend that. 

Sharon, tell everyone the name of your newsletter and anything else you want us to be following?. How can we support you? 

Sharon

My newsletter is Sharon's Anti Racism Newsletter. You can support me by taking a paid subscription because one day I would like to run the newsletter full time. And you could also join the Anti-Racist Leaders Association, which I mentioned earlier and take the lead in fighting racism wherever you are. 

Virginia

Amazing. Thank you so much for being here. I really loved this conversation. 

Sharon

Thank you, Virginia. I enjoyed it, too. Thanks so much for inviting me.

Thanks so much for listening to Burnt Toast! If you’d like to support the show, please subscribe for free in your podcast player and tell a friend about this episode.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter.

Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.