Welcome to Beat The Prosecution with Fairfax, Virginia criminal defense / DUI lawyer Jonathan Katz. Jon Katz believes in spreading the word of justice on this podcast, in court, and on his blog at https://katzjustice.com/blog, to regularly provide information and ideas for beating your prosecution. More information is available at https://KatzJustice.com and at (703)-383-1100.
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Winning by humanizing criminal defendants- Joe Margulies returns
Life's twists and turns bring us to a plethora of destinations, byways, and discoveries by surprise, out of order, and at dizzyingly varying speeds. Who would have thought that my first law firm job would lead me to meet true believer criminal defense and civil rights lawyer Joseph Margulies, via his conservative father (and my essential mentor) Irv Margulies (see his eye opening unglossed interview on his WWII combat experience in Germany) congratulating my transition to public defender work and happily telling me of his son Joe's working in the same field.
When Joe and I first spoke in late 2025, he told us about his metamorphosis from his clients being a means to fighting the opponent, to his clients being the raison d'être for his work, together with his gift for being a great writer (with several published books).
Now Joe is back, talking about his essential book available September 15, 2026, by Beacon Press, entitled Cast Out: A cure for a forgiving society in an age of incarceration. Having rivetedly read the Cast Out galley proof, I know my fellow criminal defense lawyers will find it a great read for humanizing our clients in the settlement negotiation, trial, and any sentencing stages. Remaining readers will find themselves on Joe's journey with several people who committed monstrous acts, but who still had or later developed essential elements of humanity, with some of them emerging into caring and thoughtful humans who seem to be the positive twins of their former scary selves.
Joe aptly says "the other" does not exist, rather than just us. Monster humans are not reality, versus people doing monstrous things. He does not even except Hitler from this concept. Listen why.
Joe begins Cast Out with an exploration of a January 6, 2021, defendant who pleaded guilty and later got pardoned along with the vast majority of the other January 6 defendants. In this interview, I tell Joe how one of my excellent taijiquan teachers was one of those pardoned defendants. After I sent this teacher a brief message about my concerns about that soon after the incident, I put that by the wayside, recognizing he was not the other, and that January 6 did not detract at all from his greatness and generosity as a martial arts teacher, with whom I continue to sense hands / spar and learn.
Joe's book tour will for Cast Out is expected to include Busboys & Poets (I await learning the location) on October 11, 2026, at 5:00 p.m.
This podcast with Fairfax, Virginia criminal / DUI lawyer Jon Katz is playable on all devices at podcast.BeatTheProsecution.com. For more information, visit https://KatzJustice.com or contact us at info@KatzJustice.com, 703-383-1100 (calling), or 571-406-7268 (text).
At the NORML conference around 2000, the Drug Policy Alliance's leader Ethan Nadelmann was entertaining, informing and inspiring the converted. At one point, he exclaimed along the lines of "I haven't tried that drug............ yet." That unleashed my laughter, coming from this well respected and effective leader to dismantle the drug wars and to replace them with lawful intravenous needle exchange, legal injection sites, overhauling the imprisonment system that made the United States a leading incarcerator on the planet, and more.
Over two and a half decades later, Ethan this week interviewed with me on my Beat the Prosecution podcast, where among many other items he explains the importance for him of personally experiencing the effects of many of the drugs for which he argued to reform. How many past college professors (Elliott taught at Princeton) make such public admissions? That is his persuasive transparency at work.
My opposition to the drug wars were a major catalyst for me to transition from a corporate law firm to criminal defense, where I have delighted in eroding the drug wars from my own corner of the earth, defending people charged with many other crimes, and constantly summoning the Bill of Rights.
This interview with Ethan is a battery charger, with his wide-ranging energy, optimism, imagination, and ability to find common ground with even the most otherwise seemingly virulent opponents. With conservatives supporting the drug wars, he has found commonality in opposing civil asset forfeiture that relates even ever so thinly with allegedly illegal drug activity. With Milton Friedman and other free economy people is the aversion to the drug wars as a major socialist enterprise. Ethan has met with drug policymakers and enforcers in many parts of the globe. With tough on crime nations in East Asia and beyond, he has seen reforms that ease up on drug enforcement when that reduces the spread of HIV and AIDS.
Winning with total focus on clients & justice- Anam Petit
To persuade others, it is important to transform oneself not only to their perspective, but their full being, feelings, relevant experiences, sense of place and even unsettlement, and thought process. That approach, with psychodrama (working out challenges with role playing, reverse role playing, and scene setting), is a big part of the Trial Lawyers College, which I attended for a full month, and which is featured in several of my Beat The Prosecution interviews.
Anam Petit, with the Murray Osorio law firm, is the second former immigration judge to join me on my podcast, the first being my law school immigration clinic and class professor Paul Grussendorf. With Anam, I dig deeper into strengthening one's persuasion chops by seeing matters from the judge's perspective.
Unlike most "views from the bench" programs I have attended, where the judges are usually restrained in giving tips to lawyers (for instance saying to be fully prepared and fully considerate of judges and opponents, rather than really letting their hair down), Anam holds nothing back in sharing her two years of experience as an immigration judge (during the Biden and Trump administrations) and her perspective of the wide range of lawyering she experienced, including her frustration at the swath of lawyers whose work was subpar to the detriment of their clients, when her role limited her ability to help rectify the situation.
Anam underlines the importance of getting one's persuasive point across succinctly, rather than through repetition or plodding. She talks about how she would assess the credibility she witnesses. Anam underlines how demanding was her full docket and about working through lunch and needing to be highly organized to keep up timely with her work. When lawyers and other litigants work with those demands, that can pay off for the persuader.
Now back to private law practice, mainly representing individual non-United States citizens, Anam addresses dealing with the trauma of many clients -- as is often the case for criminal defense lawyers, as well as-- and the challenges of keeping a balance in one's life when individuals are relying tremendously on our delivering them great service, and in some instances hoping we will pull a rabbit out of our hats.
Winning by integrating with the moment- Patrick Barone
Michigan lawyer Patrick Barone is the third Beat the Prosecution podcast guest who has both attended the Trial Lawyers College and been active with the National College for DUI Defense. Patrick for years pursued a DWI defense focus before attending the TLC, and then he jumped both feet forward into intensive learning and training with psychodrama -- which is a major feature of the Trial Lawyers College that has been covered numerous times on this podcast -- becoming certified in psychodrama after many years of devoting substantial time to this approach of psychotherapy and working out challenges through role playing and reverse role playing, and much more. As his and his wife Elizabeth Corby's Michigan Psychodrama Center page says, Patrick is a Board Certified trainer, educator and practitioner of psychodrama, sociometry and group psychotherapy, which is no small feat to add to an already busy criminal defense law practice.
Listen as Patrick addresses with Fairfax criminal defense lawyer Jon Katz how psychodrama can be used for lawyers to prepare their entire trial and courtroom presentations, and prepare their clients to testify. Patrick talks about the possibility of speaking from the first person as the breathalyzer machine in a DUI case, taking exception to the breath test operator who does not enable the machine to do its job properly by not inspecting the suspect's mouth for foreign objects, to preclude the machine from testing for mouth alcohol rather than deep lung alcohol.
Patrick tells of one instance about using psychodrama doubling to relate and connect directly with his client. He talks about using psychodrama on himself to work out his issues with authority, in order to unblock his challenging interactions with a judge he repeatedly encounters. He differentiates the difference between righteous indignation at a police officer during cross examination, and alienating jurors who do not perceive a justification to be indignant. He talks about advocating in the moment, and understanding others from their perspective and from putting ourselves into their shoes.
Winning through clarity and resilience- Thubten Chodron
The ideal for a criminal defendant is to avoid conviction and incarceration. However, judges and court magistrates do not always grant pretrial release, and not all convicted people avoid incarceration. Consequently, this is the second Beat the Prosecution episode that removes the mystery about handling incarceration, and focuses on keeping grounded and resilient while detained. The first episode on that topic was with Fleet Maull, a dharma teacher who served a fourteen year sentence for a federal drug conviction at the end of the twentieth century. By removing the mystery of incarceration, criminal defendants can be bolder and more confident in fighting their prosecutions along with their lawyers.
Jon Katz first heard of Venerable Chodron from Rodger Kamenetz's The Jew In the Lotus(where Chris Berlin's description of the jewel in the lotus is "boundless compassion that is fully responsive to suffering and moves us to alleviate that suffering unconditionally and spontaneously as we encounter it" and where om mani padme hum apparently praises the jewel in the lotus). As it happened, when Jon first invited Venerable Chodron to this podcast, she and those at her abbey were already very involved with helping inmates, and was already in the works.
Winning for criminal defendants integrates teaming up closely and well with our clients, life experience, successful trial experience, improving ourselves, and persuasively engaging others, for starters.
I first learned about Kim through our connection to the Trial Lawyers College, which she attended and where Kim ultimately joined the staff. How necessarily frank was Kim when walking into her first meeting of the Missouri criminal defense lawyers association, asking where were the women, and then soon becoming a member of its board.
This episode is also available on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjHDLhhePg0 and Apple podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/winning-before-trial-even-begins-kim-benjamin/id1721413675?i=1000777978177
Fairfax Criminal Lawyer / Virginia DUI Attorney Jonathan L. Katz pursues your best defense against felony, misdemeanor, DUI, drug & sex prosecutions. Defending in Fairfax County, Arlington, Loudoun, Prince William & Beyond.
Call 703-383-1100 for a free in-person consultation with Jon Katz about your court-pending criminal case. KatzJustice.com
This podcast with Fairfax, Virginia criminal / DUI lawyer Jon Katz is playable on all devices at podcast.BeatTheProsecution.com. For more information, visit https://KatzJustice.com or contact us at info@KatzJustice.com, 703-383-1100 (calling), or 571-406-7268 (text).
If you like what you hear on our Beat the Prosecution podcast, please take a moment to post a review at our Apple podcasts page (with stars only, or else also with a comment) at
Non-United States citizens are at more risk than in decades with their criminal cases, and many times starting while the prosecution is still pending in court. Harsh treatment of non-U.S. citizens did not start from whole cloth with Donald Trump, but he and his tough-on-immigrants supporters have taken the matter to an entirely higher quantum level. And still we have safeguards, including the Senate's non-action on H.R. 875, which would have made green card holders deportable for a conviction of driving under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs (aka DUI, DWI, OWI and OUI).
With the situation for non-United States citizens and undocumented people in the United States getting no better -- and in many instances worse (for instance with the widespread application of no bond for immigration detainees) -- the time is ripe for the return after sixteen months of crimmigration expert Ofelia L. Calderón, to whom your host Fairfax criminal defense lawyer Jonathan Katz repeatedly turns for on-the-money advice and opinion letters for his non-United States citizen criminal defense clients.
Criminal defense lawyers need to understand the immigration risks for certain convictions, sentences, and procedures. In 2010, the United States Supreme Court included correct advice about adverse immigration consequences from criminal cases within the Sixth Amendment’s Effective Assistance of Counsel clause. Padilla v. Kentucky, 559 U.S. 356 (2010). Crimmigration law is so nuanced that no primer exists to teach this to criminal defense lawyers in but one sitting. This Virginia crimmigration chart from Amica does not end the essential learning needed by criminal defense lawyers, but at least propels the matter forward.
Winning by sowing the seeds of empowerment- Leah Penniman of Soul Fire Farm
Interviewee Leah Penniman and Fairfax criminal lawyer Jonathan Katz are good friends with Jon's essential peace teacher (and prior Beat the Prosecution podcast guest) Jun Yasuda, whose beautiful peace pagoda is less than two miles from Leah's Soul Fire Farm.
Leah's story is one of never giving up nor giving in, which is also essential for criminal defense. She experienced substantial racism while growing up, and kept persevering, including with learning about farming. Long ago, Leah, her husband and children lived in an Albany food desert, and ultimately, she and her husband bought the farmland that is now Soul Fire Farm.
Leah did not stop at merely opening a farm, but has a nonprofit to assist lower income people with food, and welcomes countless people to learn about self empowerment and farming.
Leah tells some captivating stories, including about African women who would braid seeds into their hair, to have them available for planting in the event they were forced into slavery.
Leah does not candy coat the hurdles in life, the history of racism (including in farming), and the continuing racism found too extensively in society. She recognizes those hurdles and continues persevering.
Leah's thoughts on helping criminal defendants, are, aptly, for them to remember that they and all beings are sacred.
I recommend donating to Soul Fire Farm, and reading Leah's books and Coming next is , authored by Leah and her child Neshima.
Winning with resilience while ready for danger- Fleet Maull
Fleet Maull inspires Fairfax, Virginia, criminal defense lawyer Jonathan Katz for his extensive experience applying mindfulness with highly challenging situations, making the most of his fourteen years in prison for a drug conviction, and emerging from prison continuing to help inmates and by now helping so many people beyond those in the criminal justice system, with resilience while ready for the dangers that can lurk around the corner. (Check out this month's free online Somatic Healing Summit, where Fleet will be talking.)
When Jon Katz first met Fleet over ten years ago at a weekend program that Fleet was leading, Fleet included a great exercise that underlined that we can treat circumstances as neutral, which does not mean the absence of plenty of terrible world events, but that "we, not circumstances, are in charge of our lives and destiny." Radical Responsibliity, by Fleet Maull. Fleet also is great leading guided meditation, which he does early in this podcast episode with a few-minute sit. Fleet was trained in-depth in mindfulness at Naropa Institute (which became Naropa University) before getting convicted for alleged drug trafficking that apparently had taken place a good amount of time before being prosecuted.
Fleet spent fourteen years in federal prison. No matter how much of a chunk of his adult life that represented, at least he avoided the even more draconian federal statutory criminal sentencing increases that took hold not long after he got convicted.
Fleet does not candycoat his prison experience. He points out the racial disparities in the criminal "justice" system, his coming to terms that the people he was imprisoned with would be his "brothers and sisters" while there, six run-ins that could have taken an awful turn (and many more minor run-ins), the importance of not being passive nor too aggressive in prison, and knowing that people could walk in through an inmate's unlocked cell door and even kill them.
Winning without wishful thinking and by converting hurdles- Eric Davis
Obtaining justice in court is a never-ending process of learning; self-development; blood, sweat and tears; self discovery; inter-discovery; often deep pain that can transform into strength and growth, but often with more pain along the way; banding together with birds of a feather; and giving back what we have learned. Texas criminal defense lawyer -- moved recently from Houston to Maryland -- Eric J. Davis (until he has a website, reachable at eric.davis@gmx.us and 713-227-2727) believes strongly in giving back what he has learned, and in integrating what he learns into what he already knows, rather than shedding valuable experience and ability with the latest teachings.
Fairfax, Virginia criminal defense lawyer Jon Katz met Eric at the spring 2026 National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers program, and learned that Eric, like Jon, is a Trial Lawyers College alum, where Eric is on the TLC board and staff. Eric is also a member of the NACDL board of directors. He states straight out that the criminal justice system evolved out of racism, and finds positive ways to deal with that, including bringing race to the attention of jurors so that they will help criminal defendants when they spot racial bias and unfairness.
Eric is full of optimistic energy and fight, including in talking about his acquittal for a firearm defendant by focusing on how police rushed to judgment and narrowed themselves to finding evidence to prove him guilty, rather than considering other possible suspects after finding a firearm in an empty vehicle.
Eric talks about how his experience with the Trial Lawyers College and its focus on psychodrama and storytelling helped him feel freer in pursuing justice for his clients, including focusing on the emotions of the case, the emotions of the jurors and of the actors in the case and their motivations for how they acted.
For criminal defense and other trial lawyers, Ethan's example shows how to persuade even with the otherwise most recalcitrant of listeners, with appropriate and genuine humor, humanity, and finding points of mutual interest.
The work of dismantling the drug wars never ends. Ethan has been a major force in setting this movement in the right direction and inspiring its next generations.
This interview with Fairfax criminal defense lawyer Jon Katz and Ethan Nadelmann is available in full on YouTube https://youtu.be/MGm0wansD2g on podcasting https://podcast.beattheprosecution.com/2293867/episodes/19750008 , and on Apple podcasts https://podcast.beattheprosecution.com/2293867/episodes/19750008-winning-like-ball-of-fire-ethan-nadelmann
This podcast with Fairfax, Virginia criminal / DUI lawyer Jon Katz is playable on all devices at podcast.BeatTheProsecution.com. For more information, visit https://KatzJustice.com or contact us at info@KatzJustice.com, 703-383-1100 (calling), or 571-406-7268 (text).
Anam is frank about the need to overhaul the immigration judging system -- which heavily includes hearings where people risk deportation -- including to make immigration courts Constitutional Article III courts (like the federal District Courts and Circuit Courts) so that immigration judges do not feel their judicial independence threatened by risking being fired by the Justice Department -- that employs them, and perverts the process by unabashedly characterizing such judges as "deportation judges" in their immigration judge hiring webpage--for not pleasing the DOJ or presidential administration in general.
In a predecessor interview with another interviewer, Anam addresses sticking to her oath at all times. The current administration terminated a slew of immigration judges appointed during Democratic administrations, and Anam was one of those so terminated after nearly two years. Notable is her lack of bitterness over that termination and the positive words she has to say about the people at the immigration courts who continue focusing on doing the right thing.
Anam has been active with the public interest group Arrived (renamed from Asylum Works) Donations can be made to that group at this link.
This podcast with Fairfax, Virginia criminal / DUI lawyer Jon Katz is playable on all devices at podcast.BeatTheProsecution.com. For more information, visit https://KatzJustice.com or contact us at info@KatzJustice.com, 703-383-1100 (calling), or 571-406-7268 (text).
Beyond all that, Patrick talks of pursuing a pre-med path in college and then retooling to be a lawyer over such matters as his strong support for a robustly protected Second Amendment. He repeatedly writes about artificial intelligence for lawyers. His AI substack newsletter is at https://patrickbarone.substack.com Each month, he and his wife hold psychodrama sessions.
Patrick makes a good point that often the psychodramatists in the room are not lawyers, and the lawyers are usually not psychodramatists. He is both.
This Beat the Prosecution episode is also available on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPdJ-7Tf_Zc and https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/winning-by-integrating-with-the-moment-patrick-barone/id1721413675?i=1000783081810
This podcast with Fairfax, Virginia criminal / DUI lawyer Jon Katz is playable on all devices at podcast.BeatTheProsecution.com. For more information, visit https://KatzJustice.com or contact us at info@KatzJustice.com, 703-383-1100 (calling), or 571-406-7268 (text).
Jon Katz recommends donating to Sravasti Abbey's Prison Dharma Fund, reading The Key of Compassion and also donating the book to prisons and other detention centers, for the availability of inmates. The best way to learn how to donate spiritual books to detention centers is probably to contact the institution's chaplain.
This episode is also available on YouTube and Apple podcasts.
This podcast with Fairfax, Virginia criminal / DUI lawyer Jon Katz is playable on all devices at podcast.BeatTheProsecution.com. For more information, visit https://KatzJustice.com or contact us at info@KatzJustice.com, 703-383-1100 (calling), or 571-406-7268 (text).
Beyond the political winds that affect immigration law and enforcement policy, we have practical considerations that have been around for decades, including Crespo v. Holder, 631 F.3d 130 (4th Cir., Jan. 11, 2011), which lets us know to beware whether a seeming sweetheart deal is really a sweetheart deal when considering the adverse immigration, financial and personal consequences that can come from a wide panoply of criminal case dispositions.
Furthermore, non-United States citizens without legal permanent residence / green cards need to be particularly cautious about leaving the United States while their criminal cases are pending in court. Learn much more about all of this and plenty more in this podcast episode.
This podcast is also available on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYSoVvHK3PI and on Apple podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/winning-by-navigating-the-crimmigration-landmines/id1721413675?i=1000776851879
This podcast with Fairfax, Virginia criminal / DUI lawyer Jon Katz is playable on all devices at podcast.BeatTheProsecution.com. For more information, visit https://KatzJustice.com or contact us at info@KatzJustice.com, 703-383-1100 (calling), or 571-406-7268 (text).
This podcast with Fairfax, Virginia criminal / DUI lawyer Jon Katz is playable on all devices at podcast.BeatTheProsecution.com. For more information, visit https://KatzJustice.com or contact us at info@KatzJustice.com, 703-383-1100 (calling), or 571-406-7268 (text).
Fleet made the best of his prison situation. Helped other inmates along the way, and emerged from prison -- whether immediately or later -- a ball of positive energy and inspiration. This Beat the Prosecution interview with Fleet Maull is riveting.
This episode is also available on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi33kl8qIFQ and Apple Podcasts. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/winning-with-resilience-while-ready-for-danger-fleet-maull/id1721413675?i=1000772153117
This podcast with Fairfax, Virginia criminal / DUI lawyer Jon Katz is playable on all devices at podcast.BeatTheProsecution.com. For more information, visit https://KatzJustice.com or contact us at info@KatzJustice.com, 703-383-1100 (calling), or 571-406-7268 (text).
Eric tells a great personal story during jury selection / voir dire to inspire them to be open about racial issues -- rather than expecting to transform their prejudices in the short timespan of a trial -- by recounting how he had his defenses up when walking to fill his empty gas tank when a truck with an older white driver slowed down, and how the driver -- after they learned how much they had in common -- told Eric how he at first thought Eric was up to no good, and Eric confessed to having first had the same view of the truck driver. And then Eric asks the jurors about any assumptions they are making about race, to start the discussion. Pure brilliance.
Rules that help for a fair trial for a criminal defendant are great, but often are few and far between, and are not always sufficiently enforced. That is why I prominently display a Gladiator film clip board in my office, as a reminder of how Russell Crowe's Maximus Decimus Meridius and his teammates win despite the absence of any rules protecting them, and despite the lowest and basest violence from their opponents. Eric Davis reminds us that we can win justice for criminal defendants even when the rules do not appear to be in our favor nor to be sufficiently enforced when those rules are favorable to criminal defendants. He starts by diving deep into the jury selection process, with conversations in which he steers guilty verdict-leaning jurors closer to his side, sometimes by adding one variation to the conversation at a time. (See minute 29 in his presentation here.) We can open and widen avenues to acquittal.
This podcast with Fairfax, Virginia criminal / DUI lawyer Jon Katz is playable on all devices at podcast.BeatTheProsecution.com. For more information, visit https://KatzJustice.com or contact us at info@KatzJustice.com, 703-383-1100 (calling), or 571-406-7268 (text).
