Less than a year into Trump’s second term, his renewed push to acquire Greenland has escalated into a full-blown alliance crisis—complete with tariff threats against Denmark and other European backers, and a scramble for NATO unity. In (already) his second “emergency” episode of 2026 recorded solo on 18 January, Darren starts off by observing this episode doesn’t neatly fit neat orthodox models of international relations—it looks less like balancing or normal alliance bargaining and more like coercion and hierarchy politics, forcing Europe to weigh retaliation, endurance, and face-saving off-ramps. Given that, what kind of model(s) are useful?

Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Hannah Nelson and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.

Relevant links

Stacie Goddard and Abraham Newman. 2025. “Further Back to the Future: Neo-Royalism, the Trump Administration, and the Emerging International System.” International Organization 79(S1): S12–25. https://doi.org/10.1017/S0020818325101057

Joshua Keating, “Confused by the Trump administration? Think of it as a royal family.”, Vox, 6 Dec 2025: https://www.vox.com/politics/471070/trump-neoroyalism-monarchy

In an episode recorded just before Christmas, Darren interviews Janet Egan, Senior Fellow and Deputy Director of the Technology and National Security Program at CNAS, about AI policy and its implications for Australia. Janet (who started her career in the Australian government) frames the current AI landscape as a two-horse race between the US and China, given vastly asymmetric investment levels. She introduces “compute policy” as a tractable governance lever, explaining that the physical infrastructure required for AI—specialised chips, data centres, and energy—offers regulatable chokepoints unlike easily transferable data or algorithms. The US strategy focuses on scale and removing barriers to advancement, while China, constrained by export controls on advanced semiconductors, pursues a diffusion-oriented approach emphasising open-source models and practical applications.

Turning to Australia's recently released National AI Plan, Janet offers a mixed assessment. She praises the establishment of an AI Safety Institute and the acknowledgment that data centres matter, while noting the plan avoided overly restrictive regulation that could stifle investment. However, she argues the plan misses a significant opportunity: positioning Australia as a compute hub for frontier AI training. Australia’s renewable energy potential, available land, and skilled trades workforce make it attractive for data centre buildout, but copyright restrictions on training data remain a key barrier.

Janet argues that unlike critical minerals, AI does not lend itself to hedging between Washington and Beijing given its inherently dual-use nature and emerging evidence of bias in Chinese models. She highlights the UAE and UK as instructive cases—the former for ambitious state-led mobilisation, the latter for sophisticated thinking about AI sovereignty structured around supply resilience, value capture, and strategic influence. For Australia, she argues, meaningful participation in the AI supply chain would provide strategic leverage and a seat at the table where consequential decisions are being made.

Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Hannah Nelson and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.

Relevant links

Janet Egan (bio): https://www.cnas.org/people/janet-egan

Janet Egan, Spencer Michaels and Caleb Withers, “Prepared, Not Paralyzed:

Managing AI Risks to Drive American Leadership”, Center for New American Security, 20 Nov 2025: https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/prepared-not-paralyzed

Janet Egan, “Global Compute and National Security: Strengthening American AI Leadership Through Proactive Partnerships”, Center for New American Security, 29 July 2025: https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/global-compute-and-national-security

Lennart Heim, Markus Anderljung and Haydn Belfield, “To Govern AI, We Must Govern Compute”, Center for New American Security, 28 March 2024: https://www.cnas.org/publications/commentary/to-govern-ai-we-must-govern-compute

Emanuele Rossi, “Undersecretary Helberg explains Pax Silica and the Indo-Pacific AI play” Decode 39, 17 December 2025: https://decode39.com/12841/undersecretary-helberg-explains-pax-silica-and-the-indo-pacific-ai-play/

Stanford Institute for Human-Centered AI, “Artificial Intelligence Index Report 2025”, https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2025-ai-index-report

Department of Industry, Science and Resources (Australia), National AI Plan, December 2025: https://www.industry.gov.au/publications/national-ai-plan

Helen Toner, “Rising Tide” (substack): https://helentoner.substack.com/

Lady Gaga, How Bad Do U Want Me (Official Audio): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd_M9A5xFlY

Darren welcomes Richard McGregor, Senior Fellow for East Asia at the Lowy Institute and author of influential books "The Party" and "Xi Jinping: The Backlash," to discuss China's evolving political landscape and global position in 2025.

The discussion begins with examining how Xi Jinping has consolidated power beyond what seemed possible 15 years ago, eliminating term limits and establishing one-man rule despite China's complexity. Richard describes the muted but persistent internal resistance to Xi's leadership, including purged officials and liberal critics waiting in the wings, while noting how US-China tensions help Xi maintain domestic support.

The conversation moves to China's economic challenges, from the property crisis to overcapacity, and how the centralisation of power has shifted local government financing. McGregor discusses the sustainability of Xi's nationalist governance model and China's strengths in technological innovation despite structural problems.

On foreign policy, they analyse Trump's return and its implications for China, Southeast Asia's complex relationship with both superpowers, and the critical Taiwan issue. The episode concludes with an assessment of Australia-China relations under the Albanese government's "stabilisation" approach, examining domestic political factors and emerging challenges around Chinese technology integration in Australia's economy.

Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Hannah Nelson and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.

Relevant links

Richard McGregor (bio): https://www.lowyinstitute.org/people/experts/bio/richard-mcgregor

Richard McGregor, The Party: The Secret World of China's Communist Rulers, (Penguin, 2012, Revised Edition): https://www.penguin.com.au/books/the-party-9780141975559

Richard McGregor, Xi Jinping: The Backlash, (Penguin, 2019): https://www.penguin.com.au/books/xi-jinping-a-lowy-institute-paper-penguin-special-9781760893040

Kevin Rudd, The Avoidable War: The Dangers of a Catastrophic Conflict between the US and Xi Jinping’s China (Hachette, 2022): https://www.hachette.com.au/kevin-rudd/the-avoidable-war-the-dangers-of-a-catastrophic-conflict-between-the-us-and-xi-jinpings-china

Desmond Shum, Red Roulette: An Insider's Story of Wealth, Power, Corruption and Vengeance in Today's China (Simon & Schuster, 2022): https://www.simonandschuster.com.au/books/Red-Roulette/Desmond-Shum/9781398510388

Chun Han Wong, “Party of One: The Rise of Xi Jinping and China's Superpower Future (Avid Reader Press/Simon & Schuster, 2024): https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Party-of-One/Chun-Han-Wong/9781982185749

Patrick McGee, Apple in China: The Capture of the World's Greatest Company (Simon & Schuster, 2025): https://www.simonandschuster.com.au/books/Apple-in-China/Patrick-McGee/9781398534377

After some time away from the news, Allan and Darren have a lot to catch up on. This episode begins with PM Scott Morrison’s visit to New Zealand to meet his counterpart Jacinda Ardern. Allan provides his readout of the meeting, in which the leaders sought to affirm their shared interests and seemingly quash commentary that there are growing divisions in the relationship. Second on the list is an emerging constitutional crisis in Samoa, where a very close election result ended up in the courts, with the defeated incumbent not accepting the results. Is there anything Canberra can do? Third, the Australian government has announced the closure of its embassy in Kabul due to security concerns, perhaps no surprise given the ongoing troop withdrawals as the West tries to exit a 20-year war. But will the closure have a meaningful impact on Australian foreign policy?

Fourth, Darren offers his thoughts on the remarkable story in Belarus, where the government successfully forced a commercial airline flying between two European capitals to land so that it could arrest a dissident on board. Finally, Darren cannot resist but bring up the “lab leak hypothesis”, which is the possibility that COVID-19 leaked (accidentally) out of a lab in Wuhan, rather than jumping to humans from animals. Darren tries to set out why this hypothesis has transformed from fringe conspiracy theory to mainstream debate, one which the Biden Administration has publicly instructed its intelligence agencies to report on in the weeks ahead. How credible is the theory? Does it matter whether it’s correct? This is a deep rabbit hole and if listeners want follow Darren down it, some introductory links are in the show notes below.

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod [at] gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank Mitchell McIntosh for his help audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Joint statement: Prime Ministers Jacinda Ardern and Scott Morrison, 31 May 2021: https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/joint-statement-prime-ministers-jacinda-ardern-and-scott-morrison

PM Ardern and PM Morrison, Press Conference Transcript, Queenstown NZ, 31 May 2021: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/press-conference-queenstown-new-zealand

Marise Payne, Tweet on Samoa election, 24 May 2021: https://twitter.com/marisepayne/status/1396596376973185031?s=21

ABC News (Interview), “Samoa faces crisis after new PM sworn in outside parliament in a tent”, 25 May 2021: https://youtu.be/o3eyOOtheUM

Marise Payne, “Statement on visit to Afghanistan”, 10 May 2021: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/statement-visit-afghanistan

Scott Morrison and Marise Payne, “Statement on the Australian Embassy in Afghanistan”, 25 May 2021: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/statement-australian-embassy-afghanistan

Nicolas Wade, “Origin of COVID — Following the clues”, Medium, 3 May 2021: https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-the-clues-6f03564c038

Donald McNeil Jr, “How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Love the Lab-Leak Theory*, Medium, 17 May 2021: https://donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-lab-leak-theory-f4f88446b04d

Katherine Eban, “The Lab-Leak Theory: Inside the Fight to Uncover COVID-19’s Origins”, Vanity Fair, 3 June 2021: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/06/the-lab-leak-theory-inside-the-fight-to-uncover-covid-19s-origins

Daniel Engber, “If the lab leak theory is right, what’s next?”, The Atlantic, 27 May 2021: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/chinese-lab-leak-hypothesis-coronavirus/619000/

Tyler Cowen, “Why the lab leak theory matters” [with link to Ross Douthat Column], Marginal Revolution, 30 May 2021: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2021/05/why-the-lab-leak-theory-matters.html

David Brophy, China Panic: Australia’s Alternative to Paranoia and Pandering, Latrobe University Press: https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/china-panic

Tony Blair, “Without total change Labour will die” , The New Statesman, 11 May 2021: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/05/tony-blair-without-total-change-labour-will-die

Darren Lim and Nathan Attrill, “Australian debate of the China question: The COVID-19 case”, Forthcoming, Australian Journal of International Affairs, available at: http://ssrn.com/abstract=3856586

In the second half of this double episode with China expert Linda Jakobson, the conversation takes a broader focus. Allan begins with Taiwan, which has been in the headlines lately: how should we think about the dangers? What would it take for Beijing to use military force to resolve the situation?

The bulk of the episode is about the Australia-China relationship. How does Linda interpret the decline in bilateral relations—how much is it Australia’s ‘fault’ and how much is it China’s? What is the pathway forward? Linda offers her view, and then Darren and Allan provide their own assessments. Has China made up its mind about Australia? Finally, how can the West influence China and shape its choices? Is the deterrence/engagement binary a useful frame for thinking about the options?

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod [at] gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank AIIA intern Dominique Yap for help with research and audio editing, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Linda Jakobson,  “Why should Australia be concerned about… rising tensions in the Taiwan Strait?”, China Matters Explores February 2021, https://chinamatters.org.au/policy-brief/policy-brief-february-2021/

Linda Jakobson, ”What do we do when Beijing turns heat up on Taiwan?” Australian Financial Review, 9 February 2021: https://chinamatters.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/09.02.21-Linda-Jakobson-What-do-we-do-when-Beijing-turns-up-heat-on-Taiwan.pdf

Asialink podcast, “John Howard Reflects on the China Challenge and Trump's Legacy”, 15 Nov 2020: https://asialink.unimelb.edu.au/insights/asialink-milestones-john-howard-reflects-on-the-china-challenge-and-the-trump-legacy

Elliott Zaagman, “A rare test for China diplomacy”, Lowy Interpreter, 18 May 2021: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/rare-test-china-diplomacy

Allan and Darren welcome Linda Jakobson to the podcast. Linda is a leading China expert, and a vital voice in Australia’s own China debate. The conversation spans almost 100 minutes and will be released in two parts. At a time when the bilateral relationship is at a fresh low, this double episode offers genuine substance and depth on how one should understand China, diagnose the deterioration in Australia-China relations, and chart a pathway forward.

Linda is the founding director (and currently deputy chair) of the not-for-profit China Matters, an independent Australian policy institute (Allan sits on its Board of Directors). Linda lived and worked for over 20 years in China, including as the Beijing-based Director of the China and Global Security Programme at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI). She moved to Australia in 2011 to serve as Program Director (East Asia) at the Lowy Institute, and in 2015 she founded China Matters and was its first CEO until 2019.

The focus in Part 1 is China itself. However, the conversation begins with Linda’s own personal story. Being Finnish, Allan wonders what Finland’s experience neighbouring a major power can teach Australia, while Darren asks whether Linda sees similarities between Finland’s approach and strategies in the region – are there “Finlands” in Asia?

Turning to China itself, how has Linda’s understanding of China changed? And who is “China” when asking this question? Linda answers the question from different perspectives. Is China exceptional in what it wants?

The conversation turns to domestic politics. What is the range of views inside the country on the direction China is taking? To what extent is there pushback against Xi Jinping’s approach, and what could be the mechanisms through which change comes? How big is China’s political elite, anyway? And how can observers even answer these questions, given the increasingly closed nature of the Chinese system. Is “Pekingology” going to resemble Kremlinology?

Stay tuned for Part 2 of the conversation!

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod [at] gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank AIIA intern Dominique Yap for help with research and audio editing, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Linda’s biography: http://lindajakobson.com/?page_id=74

Linda Jakobson, “What does China want? Xi Jinping and the path to greatness”, Australian Foreign Affairs, Issue 1, 18 Oct 2017:  https://chinamatters.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/What-does-China-want-Linda-Jakobson-Australian-Foreign-Affairs-Issue-1.pdf

Natasha Kassam and Darren Lim, “How China is remaking the world in its vision”. Extract from chapter in Australian Foreign Affairs, The Conversation, 22 Feb 2021:

https://theconversation.com/how-china-is-remaking-the-world-in-its-vision-155377

Melissa Conley Tyler and Julian Dusting, “What should Australia do about…its foreign interference and espionage laws?” China Matters Explores, May 2021: https://chinamatters.org.au/policy-brief/policy-brief-may-2021/

Nick Bisley, “China drops the mask on its global ambition”, The Lowy Interpreter, 22 Apr 2021: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/china-drops-mask-its-global-ambition

Max Suich, “China confrontation: What were we thinking?” Australian Financial Review, 28 May 2021, https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/china-confrontation-what-were-we-thinking-20210429-p57njs

Max Suich, “How Australia got badly out in front on China,” Australian Financial Review, 27 May 2021, https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/how-australia-got-badly-out-in-front-on-china-20210428-p57n8x

Victor Shih and Young Yang, “The Make-up of the CCP Elite”, China Data Lab, 19 May 2021: chinadatalab.ucsd.edu/viz-blog/the-makeup-of-the-ccp-elite/

With President Joe Biden announcing the forthcoming withdrawal of ground troops from Afghanistan, the West’s 20 year war in Afghanistan is drawing to a close. Allan and Darren open this week’s podcast with a discussion of whether this is the right decision, and what lessons we should take from this decades-long conflict. The episode then turns to a busy week in bilateral relations with China for both New Zealand and Australia. Kiwi Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta gave her first major speech on China, and followed it with some controversial comments (in Australia, at least) about the expansion of the remit of the Five Eyes intelligence grouping. Meanwhile, the Australian government used purpose-built legislation to cancel two memoranda of understanding between the Victorian state government and the Chinese government on the Belt and Road Initiative – to Beijing’s predictable displeasure. Does this past week reveal a split in the two countries’ approach to China? What is the logic of each approach? Finally, Japan’s Prime Minister Suga met with Joe Biden at the White House, with China front and centre of the discussion—what are the major takeaways?

We thank AIIA intern Dominique Yap for research and audio editing, and thanks also to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

“Remarks by President Biden on the Way Forward in Afghanistan”, 14 April 2021: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/04/14/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-way-forward-in-afghanistan/

Scott Morrison, Press Conference, Stirling Community Centre, WA, 15 April 2021: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/press-conference-stirling-community-centre-wa

Nanaia Mahuta, “He Taniwha He Tipua, He Tipua He Taniwha - The Dragon and the Taniwha”, Speech to the NZ China Council, 19 April 2021: https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/%E2%80%9Che-taniwha-he-tipua-he-tipua-he-taniwha-dragon-and-taniwha%E2%80%9D

Jane Patterson, “New Zealand, Australia foreign ministers discuss China, Five Eyes, 501 deportees”, Radio NZ, 23 April 2021: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/441073/new-zealand-australia-foreign-ministers-discuss-china-five-eyes-501-deportees

(Youtube Video) “'Beautiful to see': New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern on the travel bubble | ABC News” [Ardern’s comments on Five Eyes], 20 April 2021: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c1S2pIDKH8

Andrew Tillett, “Dumped foreign deals were never used”, Australian Financial Review, 22 April 2021: https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/dumped-foreign-deals-were-never-used-20210422-p57lhm

U.S.- Japan Joint Leaders’ Statement: “U.S. – JAPAN GLOBAL PARTNERSHIP FOR A NEW ERA”, 16 April 2021: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/04/16/u-s-japan-joint-leaders-statement-u-s-japan-global-partnership-for-a-new-era/

(Youtube video) “How New is the New Era? 2021 Annual Reischauer Lecture with Rana Mitter, Part 1”, 7 April 2021: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3bi9N2NY6E

Adam Tooze, “The gatekeeper”, London Review of Books, 22 April 2021: https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v43/n08/adam-tooze/the-gatekeeper

Ezra Klein, “Four ways of looking at the radicalism of Joe Biden”, 8 April 2021: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/opinion/biden-jobs-infrastructure-economy.html

C. Lee Shea, “The longest telegram: A visionary blueprint for the comprehensive grand strategy against China we need”, War on the Rocks, 1 April 2021: https://warontherocks.com/2021/04/the-longest-telegram-a-visionary-blueprint-for-the-comprehensive-grand-strategy-against-china-we-need/

The primary focus of this week’s episode is the terrible situation in Myanmar as the Tatmadaw, the country’s military, cements its coup with increasing levels of violence. Allan’s first posting was to the country and so he leads off with a personal reflection of great sorrow. Turning to analysis, what was the cause of the conflict and to what extent did the country’s civilian government, led by Aung San Suu Kyi, play a role? Is the military sufficiently powerful that it will inevitably be a major player in Myanmar’s political future, analogous to the Taliban in Afghanistan or the Assad regime in Syria? Does Myanmar need a Nehru-like figure?

Turning to the international dimension, what are the policy challenges facing Washington, Beijing and New Delhi? Is this an opportunity for China to display regional security leadership, and what is the place of sovereignty in this discussion? Is this an existential crisis for ASEAN? Darren is intrigued by elite debates on the issue within Singapore, which leads to a wider discussion of ASEAN’s balancing act between maintaining unity and upholding the principle of non-interference, versus newer interests in shaping the emerging regional order. Turning to Australia—what are our interests and can we somehow play a positive force? Allan raises a curious question regarding whether the Australian government’s policy is to recognise only states, or whether it can recognise specific governments, as it did with Venezuela in 2019.

The discussion then moves to Papua New Guinea and its devastating Covid-19 outbreak. Darren describes some of the factors that distinguish this particular humanitarian crisis, and asks Allan what the balance is for Australia between moral imperative and strategic interest. Darren wonders whether pandemic disinformation on social media might be a spark to begin a discussion of broader social responsibility for companies like Facebook.

Finally, Peter Dutton is the new Defence Minister. Darren asks Allan to reflect on the unique challenges of the portfolio, and why so many of Dutton’s predecessors seem to have had limited success.  

We thank AIIA intern Dominique Yap for research and audio editing, and thanks also to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

List of insurgent groups in Myanmar, Wikipedia (Accessed 14 April 2021): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_insurgent_groups_in_Myanmar

Bilahari Kausikan, “ASEAN's alibi diplomacy must be allowed to take effect in Myanmar”, Nikkei Asia, 3 April 2021: https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/ASEAN-s-alibi-diplomacy-must-be-allowed-to-take-effect-in-Myanmar

Tweet from James Crabtree (@jamescrabtree) on Tommy Koh’s facebook post, 7 April 2021: https://twitter.com/jamescrabtree/status/1379671051144097798

Gareth Evans, “The Responsibility to Protect the People of Myanmar”, Australian Outlook, 8 April 2021: https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/the-responsibility-to-protect-the-people-of-myanmar/

Donald Rothwell, “The barely-noticed momentous change to Australian foreign policy”, Lowy Interpreter, 14 February 2019: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/barely-noticed-momentous-change-australian-foreign-policy

Health Minister Hon. Jelta Wong on the Covid crisis in Papua New Guinea | Aus-PNG Network Event, Lowy Institute, 1 April 2021: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/news-and-media/multimedia/video/health-minister-hon-jelta-wong-covid-crisis-papua-new-guinea-aus-png

Tweet by Andrew Davies (@defence_wonk) on Peter Duton to Defenec, 24 March 2021: https://twitter.com/defence_wonk/status/1374688464386453507 

Peter Dutton, “Joint training Exercise in the Indian Ocean”, Media release, 5 April 2021: https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/minister/peter-dutton/media-releases/joint-training-exercise-indian-ocean

The Bureau (TV Series), SBS On Demand: https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/program/the-bureau

Darren Lim, “Geoeconomics and National Security”, ANU Course: https://programsandcourses.anu.edu.au/2021/course/nspo8032

“Happy birthday to Albert Hirschman” (twitter thread by @oliverwkim), 7 April 2021: https://twitter.com/oliverwkim/status/1379898030220959746

Whereas the previous episode looked at the early weeks of the Biden administration, this week Allan and Darren examine the new trajectory of US-China relations. A theatrical public session grabbed the headlines when senior officials met in Alaska, but the readouts from the closed door meetings were more positive. What should we take away from the public drama?

Within a few days of that first meeting, the atmosphere became tenser with the EU joining the US, UK and Canada in sanctioning certain Chinese officials over human rights abuses in Xinjiang. Beijing was furious, and retaliated with sanctions against EU and UK individuals and entities, including academic researchers and think tanks (after recording, Chinese sanctions were also announced on individuals in the US and Canada). Was this a reciprocal response, or were the Chinese escalating?

With ratification of an investment agreement between the EU and China before the European Parliament, the sanctions dispute may end up demonstrating how the “adversarial” dimensions of the China’s relationship with the West can spill over and undermine a “collaborative” enterprise, to use Secretary Blinken’s formulation. And given China’s disdain and vitriol towards any criticism of its human rights record, what can the West hope to achieve in this domain?

While Australia did not impose its own sanctions, it supported the effort in a joint statement with New Zealand. Allan and Darren mull over Australia’s own dilemma regarding human rights and China, as well as other news on the relationship. Australia’s Ambassador in Beijing, Graham Fletcher, made some very pointed comments to an Australian business audience, describing the trade disruptions as “vindictive”. Meanwhile, Canberra received support from an unexpected source, the Secretary General of NATO, former Norwegian PM Jens Stoltenberg, who said China “had behaved very badly against Australia”.

As the podcast draws to a close, Allan and Darren consider the outcomes from the Quad leaders’ meeting, which for Darren are a useful indication of the type of international cooperation that could become the norm in the future. Finally, with former Australian Finance Minister Mathias Cormann winning his campaign to be elected the next Secretary General of the OECD, Allan discusses the behind-the-scenes effort that would have gone into the campaign, and the significance of his success for Australia.

We thank AIIA intern Dominique Yap for research and audio editing today, and thanks also to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

“How it happened: Transcript of the US-China opening remarks in Alaska”, Nikkei Asia, 19 March 2021: https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/US-China-tensions/How-it-happened-Transcript-of-the-US-China-opening-remarks-in-Alaska

Xinhua Commentary, “Dialogue, win-win are right choices for China-U.S. relations”, 21 March 2021: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2021-03/21/c_139824328.htm  

Thomas Wright, “The U.S. and China Finally Get Real With Each Other”, The Atlantic, 21 March 2021: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/03/the-us-and-china-finally-get-real-with-each-other/618345/  

Richard Maude, “Australia’s China Debate – Where to Now? Asia Society , 25 March 2021: https://asiasociety.org/australia/australias-china-debate-where-now

“EU imposes further sanctions over serious violations of human rights around the world”, Press release, 22 March 2021: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2021/03/22/eu-imposes-further-sanctions-over-serious-violations-of-human-rights-around-the-world/

“Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Announces Sanctions on Relevant EU Entities and Personnel”, 22 March 2021: https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/xwfw_665399/s2510_665401/2535_665405/t1863106.shtml

Bill Bishop, “Xi in Fujian; Xinjiang cotton mess; Yuan Peng on PRC-EU relations”, Sinocism, 26 March 2021: https://sinocism.com/p/xi-in-fujian-xinjiang-cotton-mess

Stephen Dziedzic, “Australia's ambassador to China says Beijing's trade behaviour is 'vindictive'”, ABC News, 26 March 2021: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-26/australian-ambassador-to-china-says-trade-behaviour-vindictive/100030700

Latika Bourke, “‘Behaving very badly’: NATO boss has Australia’s back on China ‘bullying’”, Sydney Morning Herald, 24 March 2021: https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/behaving-very-badly-nato-boss-has-australia-s-back-on-china-bullying-20210324-p57dgp.html

“Quad leaders’ joint statement: ‘The spirit of the Quad’”, 13 March 2021: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/quad-leaders-joint-statement-spirit-quad

The Dismal Science podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-dismal-science/id1214066345

“Patrick Deneen says liberalism has failed. Is he right? | The Ezra Klein Show”, 1 October 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tuG4kqKCd8

The major focus this episode is the early weeks of the Biden administration, which has raced out of the blocks with numerous foreign policy actions, and some have been controversial. Nevertheless, how does it feel to have things (roughly) back to normal again? Putting the news of the day to one side, Allan and Darren direct their attention to two speeches, one given by President Biden, and the other by Secretary of State Blinken, which chart a course for US foreign policy. What will it mean for the US to lead again? Is a “foreign policy for the American people” simply “America First with better manners”? Darren sees parallels with PM Morrison’s concept of “negative globalism”, and he does not see this as a terrible thing! And all the new administration’s emphasis on democratic renewal, what would a realistic plan in this domain look like – is one even possible?

The White House also realised an interim national security strategic guidance entitled “Renewing America’s Advantages”. At an impressive 7,000 words in length, it presents much more detail on how the Biden team sees the world. Darren wonders however at the inherent contradictions in its objectives, while Allan notices—tucked right at back of the document—a remarkable, even radical, vision for reforming the basic structure of national security policymaking in Washington. Canberra should take notice.

Next, with the inaugural Quad leaders meeting happening later that day, Allan and Darren both offer their thoughts about the grouping and what it can become into the future.

Finally, the Pacific Islands Forum is on life-support following the announcement that its five Micronesian members intended to withdraw following a dispute over the election of a new Secretary General. Why does this matter for Australia and what is to be done?

We welcome our new AIIA intern Dominique Yap and thank her for research and audio editing today. Thanks also to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

Remarks by President Biden on America’s Place in the World, US State Department Headquarters, 4 February 2021: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/02/04/remarks-by-president-biden-on-americas-place-in-the-world/

Anthony Blinken, “A Foreign Policy for the American People”, Speech, Washington DC, 3 March 2021: https://www.state.gov/a-foreign-policy-for-the-american-people/

Interim National Security Strategic Guidance, “Renewing America’s Advantages”, March 2021: https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NSC-1v2.pdf

Sinica podcast, “Getting Chinese politics wrong, with Jude Blanchette”, 4 March 2021: https://supchina.com/podcast/getting-chinese-politics-wrong-with-jude-blanchette/

Tweet thread from Darren explaining the formation of his Clubhouse group, The IDC: The Interdepartmental Committee: https://twitter.com/limdarrenj/status/1367578015815901185?s=20

Natasha Kassam of the Lowy Institute joins the podcast this week, to join Darren in facing interrogation from Allan arising from their co-authored essay, published this week in Australian Foreign Affairs (Issue 11) entitled “Future Shock: How to Prepare for a China-led World”. The questions the essay tries to answer are: what would China’s leadership of the international order look like, what does this mean for Australia, and what (if anything) can Australia do to protect its interests?

What follows is a genuinely substantive and complex discussion about the nature of China’s intentions for the global order and the consequences of its actions. Does China—or more accurately the Chinese Community Party—really need the liberal dimensions of the order “suppressed or eliminated”, as Natasha and Darren argue? If so, which parts? The issue of transparency is central to their argument, and the domains of public health and human rights are key examples. Nevertheless, is China’s challenge to the order that different from that of any other rising power, or Donald Trump for that matter? And which actions represent genuine challenges, versus a more traditional assertion of interests, such as Joe Biden’s recent claim that America’s democratic values are “the grounding wire of… our global power”? And finally, what can Australia do?

The China debate in Australia has become increasingly fraught and acrimonious in recent years and, as always, this episode represents an effort to hash out complex and truly difficult issues by providing all three participants the time and space to contextualise (and caveat) their views.

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with audio editing today and, as he departs, more generally for outstanding work during his time with us, as well as Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

Australian Foreign Affairs, Issue 11, “The march of autocracy” (2021): https://www.australianforeignaffairs.com/essay/2021/02/the-march-of-autocracy

Natasha Kassam and Darren Lim “How China is remaking the world in its vision”, The Conversation, 22 February 2021 (extract of AFA essay): https://theconversation.com/how-china-is-remaking-the-world-in-its-vision-155377

Kai Kupferschmidt, “ ‘Politics was always in the room.’ WHO mission chief reflects on China trip seeking COVID-19’s origin” Science, 14 February 2021: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/02/politics-was-always-room-who-mission-chief-reflects-china-trip-seeking-covid-19-s

Mara Hvistendahl, “How Oracle sells repression in China”, The Intercept, 18 February 2021: https://theintercept.com/2021/02/18/oracle-china-police-surveillance/

Marise Payne, “Australia and the world in the time of Covid-19” Speech at the National Security College, ANU, 16 June 2020: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/speech/australia-and-world-time-covid-19

António Guterres, “Secretary-General Guterres calls for a global reset, ‘to recover better, guided by human rights’”, Speech to the Human Rights Council, 22 February 2021: https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=26769

Jon Emont, “How China Persuaded One Muslim Nation to Keep Silent on Xinjiang Camps”, Wall Street Journal, 11 December 2019: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-china-persuaded-one-muslim-nation-to-keep-silent-on-xinjiang-camps-11576090976

Joe Biden, “Remarks on America’s place in the world” US State Department HQ, 4 February 2021: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/02/04/remarks-by-president-biden-on-americas-place-in-the-world/

This week's episode begins with the advice New Zealand’s Trade Minister Damien O’Connor attempted to offer Australia on how to manage bilateral relations with China. Was it helpful, and regardless does Australia have something to learn from the way New Zealand conducts its diplomacy and foreign policy? And what explains the starkly different trajectories of the bilateral relationships Canberra and Wellington have with Beijing?

The military has taken power in Myanmar—again—and Allan offers a sorrowful perspective on the state of the country to which he was first posted as a young diplomat. Meanwhile, Darren wonders what the Biden administration will do, and wonders whether there is merit in the US looking to support some key Southeast Asian governments in their response, rather than necessarily attempting to lead at a time when their own democratic credentials are diminished. Is "ASEAN solidarity" still in the interests of all of its member states? 

Regular podcast listeners will know how much stock Allan and Darren place on speeches, and this week they focus on the speech given by Chinese President Xi Jinping to the World Economic Forum. How is reading and analysing a speech from a Chinese leader different to that of an Australian PM or US president? What were the notable takeaways from this speech, and who was its primary audience?

Finally, Australia has a brand new Comprehensive Strategic Partnership with Malaysia. Perhaps an example of “fresh thinking” in Australian foreign policy?

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

Weizhen Tan, “Nationalism ‘is not the way forward’: New Zealand minister calls for more trade relationships” CNBC, 27 January 2021: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/new-zealand-trade-minister-on-trade-deal-with-china-china-australia-tensions.html

“New Zealand’s Foreign Minister speaks on how New Zealand tackled the pandemic”, ABC 7:30 report, 28 January 2021: https://www.abc.net.au/7.30/pause-in-travel-bubble-with-new-zealand-extended/13100700

Marise Payne, “Statement on Myanmar”, 1 February 2021: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/statement-myanmar

Economist Intelligence Unit, “Democracy Index 2020: In sickness and in health?”: https://www.eiu.com/n/campaigns/democracy-index-2020/

Xi Jinping, “Let the Torch of Multilateralism Light up Humanity's Way Forward”, Speech to the World Economic Forum, 26 January 2021: https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-01-25/Full-text-Xi-Jinping-s-speech-at-the-virtual-Davos-Agenda-event-Xln4hwjO2Q/index.html

Cobus van Staden, “What did Xi Jinping Really Say at Davos?”, China Africa Project, 26 January 2021: https://mailchi.mp/0f0b40daa599/what-did-xi-jinping-really-say-at-davos?e=832ad9dc70

“Joint Statement on a Comprehensive Strategic Partnership between Australia and Malaysia”, 27 January 2021: https://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/malaysia/joint-statement-comprehensive-strategic-partnership-between-australia-and-malaysia

John Blaxland, “Behind the Australia-Thailand strategic partnership”, East Asia Forum, 27 January 2021: https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2021/01/27/behind-the-australia-thailand-strategic-partnership/

Sinica podcast, “A new U.S. strategy in East Asia, from the Quincy Institute”, 21 January 2021: https://supchina.com/podcast/a-new-u-s-strategy-in-east-asia-from-the-quincy-institute/

Robert Atkinson and Michael Lind, “National Developmentalism: From Forgotten Tradition to New Consensus”, American Affairs Volume III, Number 2 (Summer 2019): https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2019/05/national-developmentalism-from-forgotten-tradition-to-new-consensus/

Recorded the day after Joe Biden’s inauguration as President, Allan and Darren begin the episode by returning to the storming of the U.S. Capitol on 6 January, reflecting on whether their initial assessments need to be updated based on what we now know about the day, and the events since.

Next, they discuss a 2018 document outlining the Trump administration’s Indo-Pacific strategy that was declassified (more than 20 years ahead of schedule) by the White House as it was leaving office.

Third, Allan returns to his fascination with Australia’s cooperation with its Five Eyes partners, this time in the wake of a curious Department of Home Affairs media release discussing a “Five Country” grouping.

Finally, Darren admits to being triggered by a recent piece in the Australian Financial Review calling for “fresh thinking” in Australian foreign policy—is the situation that dire and is this the answer? And can a “wise old owl” like Allan provide it? The result is an interesting discussion about the barriers to entry into contributing to Australian foreign policy.

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

Scott Morrison, Interview with Jim Wilson 2GB, 18 January 2021: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/interview-jim-wilson-2gb-180121

Luke Mogelson, “Among the insurrectionists”, The New Yorker, 15 January 2021:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/01/25/among-the-insurrectionists

Gillian Tett, “America’s political crisis runs deeper than ideology”, Financial Times, 13 January 2021: https://www.ft.com/content/d8c59645-0f30-4647-a577-8ef3cc37ceee

Derek Thompson, “Biden should go big, fast and simple”, The Atlantic, 20 January 2021: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/biden-go-big/617737/

Amanda Gorman reads “The hill we climb”, 20 January 2021: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz4YuEvJ3y4

“US Strategic Framework for the Indo-Pacific”, Document declassified on 5 January 2021, available at: https://news.usni.org/2021/01/15/u-s-strategic-framework-for-the-indo-pacific

Bethany Allen-Ebrahimian and Zach Dorfman, “Newly declassified report lays out U.S. strategy in Asia”, Axios, 12 January 2021: https://www.axios.com/indo-pacific-strategy-trump-administration-china-377b965c-6cf8-4299-a230-c0e869bb4d73.html

Peter Dutton, “Five Country Statement to EU to prevent child abuse online”, Media release, 15 January 2021: https://minister.homeaffairs.gov.au/peterdutton/Pages/five-country-statement-EU-prevent-child-abuse-online.aspx

UK Home Office, “Five Country Ministerial starts in London” Press release, 5 February 2015: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/five-country-ministerial-starts-in-london

Andrew Clark, “Time for new foreign policy thinking in the Canberra citadel”, Australian Financial Review, 15 January 2021: https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/time-for-new-foreign-policy-thinking-in-the-canberra-citadel-20210115-p56ucu

Vitalik Buterin, “Endnotes on 2020: Crypto and beyond”, 28 December 2021: https://vitalik.ca/general/2020/12/28/endnotes.html

Malcolm Turnbull, A bigger picture, Hardie Grant: https://www.hardiegrant.com/au/publishing/bookfinder/book/a-bigger-picture-by-malcolm-turnbull/9781743795637

Christopher Pyne, The insider: the scoops, the scandals and the serious business within the Canberra bubble, Hachette Australia, https://www.hachette.com.au/christopher-pyne/the-insider-the-scoops-the-scandals-and-the-serious-business-within-the-canberra-bubble

Arnold Schwarznegger, Message following this week’s attack on the Capitol, 10 January 2021: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_P-0I6sAck

It’s time for another tariff episode, and Darren is joined by returning guest Corbin Duncan, a journalist with The Economist (and valued Australia in the world team member) to talk through an avalanche of tariff news.

Apologies for the poor quality of audio from Darren’s end.

Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research, co-hosting and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.

Relevant links

Security Economics (podcast), “Trump's new global tariff regime is here!”, 7 August 2025: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-St1M0DRcU

Darren Lim and John Ikenberry, “China and the logic of illiberal hegemony”, Security Studies: (ungated) https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4244377  || (gated) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2178963

Triple J, Hottest 100 of Australian Songs: https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/countdown/hottest100/1-100

Sam Tanenhaus, Buckley: The Life and the Revolution That Changed America, Penguin Random House: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/176399/buckley-by-sam-tanenhaus/

Jospeh Torigian, The Party's Interests Come First:The Life of Xi Zhongxun, Father of Xi Jinping, Standford University Press, https://www.sup.org/books/history/partys-interests-come-first

Following the shocking events on Wednesday 6 January when a mob of Trump supporters (incited by the president) stormed the U.S. Capitol Building, Allan and Darren offer their reactions in this episode recorded in the afternoon of Friday 8th. Above all, does this drama change how they see the short- and medium-term trajectory of the United States? For Allan the events reinforce rather than change views he’s formed over the past four years, while Darren tries, perhaps foolishly, to offer an optimistic assessment.

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

Bruno Maçães, History has begun: The birth of a new America (Hurst Publishers): https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/history-has-begun/

All in: The fight for Democracy (Amazon Prime): https://www.amazon.com/All-Fight-Democracy-Stacey-Abrams/dp/B08FRQQKD5

Matthew Continetti, “Trump must pay”, National Review, 6 January 2021: https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/trump-must-pay/

Yuval Levin, “Trump’s rebellion against reality”, The Dispatch, 7 January 2021” https://thedispatch.com/p/trumps-rebellion-against-reality

Bruno Maçães, “The roleplaying coup”, City Journal, 7 January 2021: https://www.city-journal.org/the-role-playing-coup

Allan and Darren begin their final episode of 2020 with the recent cabinet reshuffle, specifically Dan Tehan becoming Minister for Trade and Andrew Hastie becoming Assistant Minister for Defence. Tehan replaces Simon Birmingham, the new Finance Minister, and Allan explains what he most admires about ‘Birmo’, giving Tehan—himself a former diplomat—big shoes to fill. On the Defence side, we now have a Defence Minister, and an Assistant Defence Minister, who have both served in the Australian Defence Force—something unusual and notable.

The discussion moves to the appointment of Will Hodgman, a former Premier of Tasmania, to be Australia’s next High Commissioner to Singapore. Allan wonders what specialised skills (if any) the government believes head of mission posts require, while Darren offers a very personal reflection on the wide range of abilities required to be an Ambassador, especially in a crisis situation.

Next the conversation turns to the Richardson Review, chaired by friend of the podcast Dennis Richardson and which, at over 1300 pages in length, is a deep and comprehensive inquiry into the legislation governing Australia’s intelligence community. Allan explains why the report is so significant and lists some highlights. Liberal democracies across the world are grappling with the perennial question of “freedom versus security”, and the powers (and oversight) of intelligence agencies are central to these debates. Getting the balance right is important not just in and of itself, but for demonstrating that the liberal democratic model can manage uniquely 21st century challenges.

Finally, Allan and Darren preview their “summer homework”. What is each looking to learn more about over the summer, and why? For Allan, the answer revolves around the degree of agency Australia has in the emerging international order, and for Darren the answer is—as always it seems—to understand more about China itself, and Beijing’s intentions.

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

Scott Morrison, Media Statement [Cabinet reshuffle], 18 December 2020: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/ministry-0  

Marise Payne, Media release “High Commissioner to Singapore”, 29 November 2020: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/high-commissioner-singapore

Daniel Flitton, “More pollies in more posts”, Lowy Interpreter, 3 December 2020: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/more-pollies-more-posts

Report of the Comprehensive Review of the Legal Framework of the National Intelligence Community, 4 December 2020: https://www.ag.gov.au/national-security/publications/report-comprehensive-review-legal-framework-national-intelligence-community

Sun Yun, “‘Politics come first’ as ban on Australian coal worsens China’s power cuts”, Financial Times, 21 December 2020: https://www.ft.com/content/e83fffeb-3ef2-4b67-8989-6d17f153d8d4

Pekingology podcast: https://www.csis.org/podcasts/pekingology

The Aubrey-Martin series (Wikipedia entry): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubrey%E2%80%93Maturin_series

The Mandalorian, Disney Plus: https://disneyplusoriginals.disney.com/show/the-mandalorian

Brune Macaes, “Dune and the infinite game”, 17 December 2020: https://brunomacaes.substack.com/p/dune-and-the-infinite-game

The Realignment podcast: https://the-realignment.simplecast.com/

Allan and Darren welcome Professor Howard Bamsey to the podcast, who offers unmatched experience regarding Australia’s international engagement with the issue of climate change.

Beginning his professional life in DFAT, Howard has worked in almost all the parts of the Australian government dealing with climate change, including the Departments of the Environment and Climate Change. He has been CEO of the Australian Greenhouse Office, Australia’s special envoy on climate change, the Ambassador for the Environment, Ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva and Special Adviser on Green Growth to AusAid. He was director-general of the Global Green Growth Institute, is currently chair of the Global Water Partnership and Honorary Professor in the School of Regulation and Global Governance at the ANU, and is a member of the boards of the Climate Policy Initiative and Climate Works Australia.

For those listeners who do not follow it closely, the conversation begins with an introduction to the issue of climate change. What is the scale and urgency of the climate challenge the planet confronts right now? What are the institutions and processes through which the international community is trying to address these challenges? In answering these questions, Howard describes Australia’s contribution to the international architecture that now exists.

Yet the current Australian government’s position remains an outlier, especially regarding a commitment to carbon neutrality, why? How “pragmatic” are Australians in international negotiations? How does the issue of climate change affect our relationship with our neighbours in the South Pacific – what are we doing, and what can we do better?

The conversation turns to domestic politics – is climate change a “culture war” issue? And what strategy should the international community adopt to shift Australian policy?

Looking ahead to the next COP meeting in Glasgow, Allan asks Howard what a Biden presidency will mean for Australia, while Darren asks what role the UN and international cooperation can play into the future in facilitating investment. Finally, what does Howard say to young people about the trajectory of climate change action?

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for help with research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Horward Bamsey, short biography: https://climate.anu.edu.au/about/people/academics/prof-howard-bamsey

Gideon Rachman, “The perilous politics of climate change”, Financial Times, 1 July 2019: https://www.ft.com/content/70f290de-9bd8-11e9-9c06-a4640c9feebb

In this emergency episode, Allan and Darren react to a tumultuous few weeks in Australia’s bilateral relationship with China. Events discussed include: the “14 points” document provided by the Chinese embassy to Australian journalists, new anti-dumping duties on Australian wine, PM Morrison’s speech to a UK think tank, and the hugely controversial image depicting an Australian soldier tweeted out by a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson, and the PM’s call for an apology in response. 

Relevant links

Scott Morrison, “UK Policy Exchange Virtual Address”, 23 November 2020: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/uk-policy-exchange-virtual-address 

Darren Lim and Victor Ferguson, “A collective approach to countering Chinese economic bullying may be Australia’s best option”, The Guardian, 28 November 2020: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/28/a-collective-approach-to-countering-chinese-economic-bullying-may-be-australias-best-option

Bill Bishop, Sinocism newsletter: https://sinocism.com/ 

Feeling particularly reflective as the US electoral process inches toward a conclusion, Allan and Darren chat about what they see as the short- and long-term challenges facing Australian foreign policy. In the short term, the bilateral relationship with China looms largest. Allan makes that case that the Prime Minister (or Foreign Minister) should make a speech clearly outlining Australia’s position, while Darren wonders whether the PM has already said what he wants to say. And what specific diplomatic moves available to the government? Darren offers some thoughts on whether the ongoing trade disruptions are simply coercion, or whether other geoeconomic or industry policy motives may be a factor. The two also debate the distinction between “the Chinese government” and “the CCP”, and compare it to distinguishing the Trump administration from the United States as a whole.

The other major short-term issue discussed is cooperation with Australia’s regional partners, Southeast Asia in particular. The signing of the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) may offer an opportunity for Australia to develop deeper ties, though Darren raises whether shared security interests are a necessary condition for really substantive cooperation. He also speculates on whether Australia’s experience with economic coercion and protecting against foreign interference could be a useful source of advice, while Allan counters that Asian nations have been grappling with these questions for decades, even centuries! Allan also previews PM Morrison’s trip to Japan this week.

Looking to the longer term, Allan and Darren describe a range of possible futures, the kinds of investment strategies Australia could pursue now to prepare for future challenges, and potential risks to a long-term strategy.

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

PM Lee Hsien Loong gave the keynote address at the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) Shangri-La Dialogue Opening Dinner on 31 May 2019 at the Shangri-La Hotel, Singapore: https://www.pmo.gov.sg/Newsroom/PM-Lee-Hsien-Loong-at-the-IISS-Shangri-La-Dialogue-2019

Lee Hsien Loong, “The Endangered Asian Century: America, China, and the Perils of Confrontation”, Foreign Affairs, July/August 2020: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/asia/2020-06-04/lee-hsien-loong-endangered-asian-century

Stephen Dziedzic, “Scott Morrison unveils Government plans to reassert Australia's influence in South-East Asia”, ABC News, 14 November 2020: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-14/australia-canberra-new-aid-south-east-asia-scott-morrison/12883088

Joe Biden, “Why American must lead again: Rescuing U.S. Foreign Policy After Trump”, Foreign Affairs, March/April 2020: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-01-23/why-america-must-lead-again

Government of Victoria, “Victorian Pledge For Institute Of Infectious Disease”, 13 November 2020: https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/victorian-pledge-institute-infectious-disease

Tim Alberta, “Elissa Slotkin Braces for a Democratic Civil War”, 13 November 2020: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/11/13/elissa-slotkin-braces-for-a-democratic-civil-war-436301

David French, Divided we fall: America’s secession threat and how to restore our nation”, Pan Macmillan Australia: https://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781250201973/ 

Ezra Klein podcast interview with Evan Osnos, “Joe Biden, explained”, 7 November 2020: https://www.vox.com/ezra-klein-show-podcast/2020/11/7/21554198/joe-biden-evan-osnos-president-2020-election-white-house-donald-trump

Little Red Podcast, “Xi Dada and Daddy: Power, the Party and the President”, 2 November 2020: https://omny.fm/shows/the-little-red-podcast/xi-dada-and-daddy-power-the-party-and-the-presiden?in_playlist=the-little-red-podcast!podcast

“P.E. with Joe”, Monday 23 March 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz0go1pTda8

Recorded on Thursday 5th November in the afternoon (Canberra time), as Joe Biden appeared on track for victory in the 2020 US presidential election but had not yet crossed the 270 electoral college vote threshold, Allan and Darren offer their immediate reactions, emotionally and analytically. 

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Sam Harris, Making Sense Podcast, Episode 224, "The key to Trump's appeal", 2 November 2020: https://samharris.org/podcasts/224-key-trumps-appeal/ 

Daniel Drezner, "Donald Trump and the haunting of political science", Washington Post, 3 November 2020: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/11/03/donald-trump-haunting-political-science/ 

This week’s episode begins with a focus on recent events in Australia’s defence policy space, which both Allan and Darren see as trending towards the formation of a balancing coalition in the region. Australia will join the US, Japan and India in next month’s Malabar exercises, which was announced while Defence Minister Linda Reynolds was in Tokyo to meet with her counterpart. Meanwhile, Australia will no longer send a naval ship to the Middle East – signalling the conclusion of a decades-long focus on that region.

The conversation then turns to a controversial hearing in the Senate, during which Senator Eric Abetz asked three witnesses, all Australians of Chinese heritage, to denounce the Chinese Communist Party unconditionally. Both Allan and Darren explain why they were deeply troubled by this line of questioning, and Darren describes his recent co-authored piece that argues Abetz’s actions actually harmed Australia’s national security. The episode also raises interesting and thorny questions regarding whether and how every Australian should intervene in public debates.

Finally, given that Ministerial visits, like those to Japan recently made by the Foreign and Defence Ministers, currently come at the cost of 14-days quarantine upon returning home, what does this say about the future of diplomacy?

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

Senator Linda Reynolds and Senator Marise Payne, “Australia to participate in Exercise Malabar 2020”, Media Release: 19 October 2020: https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/minister/lreynolds/media-releases/australia-participate-exercise-malabar-2020

“2020 Japan-Australia Defense Ministers Kishi/Reynolds Joint Statement on Advancing Defence Cooperation”, 19 October 2020: https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/minister/lreynolds/statements/2020-japan-australia-defense-ministers-kishireynolds-joint-statement

Senator Linda Reynolds, “Changes to the ADF's naval presence in the Middle East”, Media Release, 23 October 2020: https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/minister/lreynolds/media-releases/changes-adfs-naval-presence-middle-east

Stephen Dziedzic and Andrew Greene, “Australia no longer sending Navy to the Middle East, shifts focus to Asia-Pacific, China”, ABC News, 23 October 2020: https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-23/australia-will-stop-sending-navy-to-middle-east-to-shift-focus/12808118

Osmond Chiu, “I was born in Australia. Why do I need to renounce the Chinese Communist Party?”, Sydney Morning Herald, 14 October 2020: https://www.smh.com.au/national/i-was-born-in-australia-why-do-i-need-to-renounce-the-chinese-communist-party-20201014-p5655j.html

Yun Jiang, “Senator Abetz’s loyalty test”, Inside Story, 20 October 2020: https://insidestory.org.au/senator-abetzs-loyalty-test/

Natasha Kassam and Darren Lim, “Loyalty tests make Australia weaker, not stronger” Lowy Interpreter, 21 October 2020: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/loyalty-tests-make-australia-weaker-not-stronger

Australian Institute of International Affairs, “The World in 2021: Allan Gyngell and Dennis Richardson in Conversation”, 22 October 2020: https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australian-outlook/?filter[]=video (forthcoming)

Graeme Dobell, “What’s worth 14 days’ quarantine for Australia’s foreign minister?” The Strategist, Australian Strategic Policy Institute, 19 October 2020: https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/whats-worth-14-days-quarantine-for-australias-foreign-minister/

Australian Institute of International Affairs, contact details: https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/contact-us/

Anne Applebaum, Twilight of Democracy: The Failure of Politics and the Parting of Friends (Goodreads page): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55772332-twilight-of-democracy

Francis Fukuyama, “Liberalism and its discontents: The challenges from the left and the right”, American Purpose, 5 October 2020: https://www.americanpurpose.com/articles/liberalism-and-its-discontent/

David Brooks, “America is having a moral convulsion”, The Atlantic, 5 October 2020: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/collapsing-levels-trust-are-devastating-america/616581/

Thrilled that the podcast is about to cross the 100,000 lifetime download threshold (thank you all!), Allan and Darren try something new this week – answering mailbag questions. Is the US a ‘failed state’, and would ‘strategic autonomy’ be realistic for Australia? Will the title of Allan’s book on Australian foreign policy, “Fear of abandonment”, be appropriate for the next 70 years of Australian foreign policy? Are there any lessons for Australia and the Indo-Pacific from the recent ‘Abraham Accords’ between Israel and the UAE/Bahrain? Is the Quad viable as an ‘Arc of Democracy’, and are there any major takeaways from the ministerial in Tokyo this past week?

Allan and Darren have their strongest disagreement in assigning a grade to the Australian government’s China policy since 2017, and have an interesting discussion about what control any government can have over public discourse. Next, what will the DFAT of 2050 look like? And finishing with some ‘meta’ questions – is the podcast a useful vehicle to help discipline their thoughts, and has each changed the other’s mind?

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing and XC Chong for research support. Thanks as always to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

Hugh White, How to defend Australia (2019): https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/how-defend-australia

Allan Gyngell, Fear of abandonment: Australia in the world since 1942 (2017): https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/fear-abandonment

Allan Renouf, The frightened country (1979): https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/LIB16176

Brendan Taylor, “Realist optimist: Coral Bell’s contribution to Australian foreign and defence policy (2014): http://press-files.anu.edu.au/downloads/press/p303831/pdf/9.-Realist-Optimist-Coral-Bell%E2%80%99s-Contribution-to-Australian-Foreign-and-Defence-Policy.pdf

Marise Payne, “Australia-India-Japan-United States Quad Foreign Ministers' Meeting”, Media Release, 6 October 2020: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/australia-india-japan-united-states-quad-foreign-ministers-meeting

Scott Morrison, “Where we live”, Speech at Asialink, 27 June 2019: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/budget-of-skewed-priorities

Alex Oliver, “A budget of skewed priorities”, Lowy Interpreter, 7 October 2020: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/budget-of-skewed-priorities

Allan Gyngell and Michael Wesley, Making Australian Foreign policy (2012): https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9781139168632

John Lewis Gaddis, George F. Kennan: An American Life (2011), Goodreads page: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11910982-george-f-kennan

Christopher Hill, The changing politics of foreign policy (2003), Goodreads page: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/414234.The_Changing_Politics_of_Foreign_Policy

Evan Osnos, Age of Ambition: Chasing Fortune, Truth, and Faith in the New China (2014), Goodreads page: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18490568-age-of-ambition

Richard McGregor, The Party: The secret world of China’s communist rulers (2010), Goodreads page: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7822182-the-party

Allan and Darren return once again to the Australia-China relationship to begin today’s episode. The particular topic is foreign interference, in the wake of accusations by the Chinese government that PRC journalists working in Australia had their homes raided by law enforcement in June. Darren characterises this as an instance where a domestic policy action—here a foreign interference investigation—has obvious foreign policy implications, and asks Allan whether in these types of cases the Australian government would brief foreign counterparts, and whether domestic law enforcement agencies might involve DFAT in their decision-making. A recent column by Paul Kelly of The Australian newspaper that is critical of the government’s policy towards China is brought into the conversation. Darren wonders whether it is impossible to have a coherent foreign policy approach towards China when domestic policy actions will inevitably affect the bilateral relationship. For Allan this is a relatively normal situation that all governments have to manage.

For the second half of the episode, the conversation begins on the topic of trilateral gatherings, in light of a recent meeting between Australia, India and France, and the possibility of a trilateral with India and Indonesia in the near future. What is the logic of having three countries meet, and what outcomes might follow? Darren asks Allan for his “theory” of trilateralism, and while Allan is reluctant, Darren is happy with his answer! Next, the two discuss the elevation of Suga Yoshihide to Prime Minister of Japan, and how he may contrast with his predecessor despite intending to continue with Abe Shinzo’s policies. And finally, Allan discusses why the protests against the monarchy and military in Thailand are important, despite minimal attention here in Australia.

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing and XC Chong for research support. Thanks as always to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

Stephen Dziedzic and Sean Rubinsztein-Dunlop, “China slams Australian Government for 'blatant irrational behaviour' over foreign interference investigation”, ABC News, 9 September: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-10/chinese-government-slams-australia-blatant-irrational-over-raids/12647738

Paul Kelly, “Our China relationship needs help before it’s too late”, The Australian, 16 September 2020: https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/our-china-relationship-needs-help-before-its-too-late/news-story/0c37e5bb3480b0d48f55fc935491103b

Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, “First Australia-India-France Trilateral Dialogue”, Media Release, 9 September 2020: https://www.dfat.gov.au/news/media-release/first-australia-india-france-trilateral-dialogue

Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, “Third India-Australia-Indonesia Trilateral Senior Officials’ Dialogue”, Media Release, 18 December 2019: https://www.dfat.gov.au/news/media/Pages/third-india-australia-indonesia-trilateral-senior-officials-dialogue

Patpicha Tanakasempipat and Matthew Tostevin, “Thai protesters challenge monarchy as huge protests escalate”, Sydney Morning Herald, September 2020: https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/thai-protesters-challenge-monarchy-as-huge-protests-escalate-20200920-p55xg9.html

PM Scott Morrison interviewed by David Spears on Insiders, 20 September 2020: https://www.abc.net.au/insiders/prime-minister-scott-morrison/12682638

Martin Gurri, The Revolt of the Public and the Crisis of Authority (Goodreads page): https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/22451908-the-revolt-of-the-public-and-the-crisis-of-authority

Joseph Nye, Do Morals Matter? Presidents and Foreign Policy from FDR to Trump, Oxford University Press: https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/do-morals-matter-presidents-and-foreign-policy-fdr-trump

The Social Dilemma (Netflix): https://www.netflix.com/ie/title/81254224

Ezra Klein, “How technology is designed to bring out the worst in us”, Interview with Tristan Harris, 19 February 2018: https://www.vox.com/technology/2018/2/19/17020310/tristan-harris-facebook-twitter-humane-tech-time

Ezra Klein, “You will love this conversation with Jaron Lanier, but I can’t describe it”, Interview with Jaron Lanier, 16 January 2018: https://www.vox.com/2018/1/16/16897738/jaron-lanier-interview

Recording early afternoon on Wednesday 7 September, Allan and Darren begin by grappling with the previous day’s news of the arrival back in Australia of the last two China correspondents from Australian media outlets: the ABC’s Bill Birtles and the AFR’s Mike Smith. Darren tries to piece together his own theory of what happened, and Allan offers some insight on the mechanics behind DFAT’s role in cases like these, both in warning Australians of risks, and then the decision to shelter them, in this case while negotiating their safe departure from China. Note that the conversation occurred before more details emerged of allegations by PRC state media of “raids” on PRC journalists in Australia by national security agencies, and news of the cancellation of visas for two Chinese scholars.

The discussion turns next to the speech delivered by the Deputy Head of Mission at the Chinese embassy, Wang Xining, at the National Press Club in late August. Allan explains the types of constraints on all diplomats in giving a speech like this, and both he and Darren agree that the prepared text did seem to lean more towards conciliatory than provocative. In the context of a very low month in the bilateral relationship, which also included new investigations into Australian wine exports, the detention of another Australian citizen, CGTN anchor Cheng Lei, and Australia's blocking of an acquisition by a PRC company of a Japanese-owned milk processing company on national interest grounds, they wonder whether the speech will have any lasting impact. In light of some recent analysis Darren asks, is Australia only recently “standing up” to China, or has Australia’s approach been consistent, as claimed by PM Morrison?

Allan and Darren both weigh on the Foreign Affairs Bill announced by the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister recently, which if it becomes law is expected to enable Canberra to cancel the Belt and Road Initiative MOU signed by the State of Victoria. As a historian of Australian foreign policy, Allan cannot recall a single issue where state actions have been a real problem for Australian foreign policy, and he observes that the “national interest” test could be wielded in very different ways by different governments into the future.

Finally, the two discuss the legacy of retiring Japanese Prime Minster Abe Shinzo, and Allan offers his view on the merits of former PM Tony Abbott taking a position advising the UK government on trade policy.

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing and XC Chong for research support. Thanks as always to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

Matthew Doran and Stephen Dziedzic, “Australian correspondents Bill Birtles and Mike Smith pulled out of China after five-day diplomatic standoff over national security case”, ABC News, 8 September 2020: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-08/bill-birtles-mike-smith-evacuated-china-safety-concerns/12638786  

“Political retaliation: China correspondent Bill Birtles on being forced home under threats from Beijing”, ABC PM (Radio), 8 September 2020: https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/pm/china-correspondent-bill-birtles-on-being-forced-home/12642502

Jade Macmillan, “Cheng Lei, Australian anchor detained in Beijing, accused of 'endangering China's national security'”, ABC News, 8 September 2020: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-08/australian-anchor-cheng-lei-china-endanger-national-security/12642596  

Global Times, “Australian agents raid Chinese journalists' residences, seize computers 'in violation of legitimate rights': source”, 8 September 2020: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1200286.shtml  

Wang Xining, “China and Australia: Where to from here?”, Address at the National Press Club, 26 August 2020: http://au.china-embassy.org/eng/gdtp_16/t1809360.htm

Phillip Coorey, “Morrison sticks to new China doctrine”, Australian Financial Review, 31 August 2020: https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/morrison-sticks-to-new-china-doctrine-20200827-p55pqa

Kirsy Needham, “Special Report: Australia faces down China in high-stakes strategy”, Reuters, 4 September 2020: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-china-relations-special-rep/special-report-australia-faces-down-china-in-high-stakes-strategy-idUSKBN25V1GM

Elena Collinson and James Laurenceson, “Australia-China Monthly Wrap-Up: August 2020”, Australia-China Relations Institute (ACRI), 3 September 2020: https://www.australiachinarelations.org/content/australia-china-monthly-wrap-august-2020

Fergus Ryan, Audrey Fritz and Daria Impiombato, “TikTok and WeChat: Curating and controlling global information flows”, ASPI Policy Brief 37/2020, 8 September 2020: https://www.aspi.org.au/report/tiktok-wechat

PM Scott Morrison and FM Marise Payne, Press Conference, Australian Parliament House, 27 August 2020: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/press-conference-australian-parliament-house-act-27aug20

Melissa Conley-Tyler, “Morrison’s foreign relations bill should not pass parliament. Here’s why”, The Conversation (AU), 7 September 2020: https://theconversation.com/morrisons-foreign-relations-bill-should-not-pass-parliament-heres-why-145615

Leader, “Abe Shinzo’s legacy is more impressive than his muted exit suggests”, The Economist, 3 September 2020: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2020/09/03/abe-shinzos-legacy-is-more-impressive-than-his-muted-exit-suggests

Kevin Rawlinson and Heather Stewart, “No 10 urged to revoke trade role for 'misogynist' Tony Abbott”, The Guardian, 3 September 2020: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/sep/03/government-pressured-to-backtrack-on-trade-role-for-tony-abbott

“Adam Tooze on the geopolitics of the pandemic”, Sinica Podcast, 6 August 2020: https://supchina.com/podcast/adam-tooze-on-the-geopolitics-of-the-pandemic/

“Adam Tooze on our financial past and future”, Conversations with Tyler podcast, 6 May 2020: https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/adam-tooze-tyler-cowen-covid-19-economics-46a9b28a2f59

“Nuzzel” app: https://developers.nuzzel.com/

The PM made a big trip to China, and the ABC’s Stephen Dziedzic accompanied him as part of the press contingent. Darren and Stephen discuss both Beijing’s and Canberra’s interests in the visit, the careful diplomacy of the week, an apparent effort from the Trump administration to use the Taiwan issue to derail the visit, and whether Australia really is in a “post stabilisation” phase in its bilateral relationship with China.

Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Hannah Nelson and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.

Relevant links

Stephen Dziedzic, “Albanese bats away questions about Taiwan and US defence demands on first day of China visit”, ABC News, 13 July 2025: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-07-13/albanese-taiwan-us-defence-demands-china-visit/105526626

Stephen Dziedzic, “China's Premier Li Qiang calls for more economic ties with Australia in meeting with Anthony Albanese”, ABC News, 16 July 2025: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-07-16/anthony-albanese-meets-li-qiang-business-leaders-in-china/105536072

“What does the PM's trip to China mean for Taiwan? | Insiders On Background” ABC News, 19 July 2025: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP5Y0nKmxt0

PM Albanese, John Curtin Oration, 5 July 2025: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/john-curtin-oration

Dwarkesh Patel, “China’s Manufacturing Dominance: State Directives & Ruthless Competition — Arthur Kroeber’ (podcast), 20 June 2025: https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/arthur-kroeber

The rest is history (podcast): https://open.spotify.com/show/7Cvsbcjhtur7nplC148TWy (Spotify) | https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-rest-is-history/id1537788786 (Apple)

In part two of Richard Maude’s return to the podcast, the conversation begins with China. Was Richard “surprised” by Beijing’s promulgation of the Hong Kong National Security Law? Should the Australian government be updating its priors regarding the level of risk China is willing to take, and would such an updating have any policy consequences? What then about Taiwan? A serious Taiwan contingency would not be a surprise—does it pose the greatest challenge for the new strategic objectives outlined by Prime Minister Morrison in his speech launching Australia’s 2020 Defence Strategic Update? And on the topic of technological decoupling, Darren tries to separate the technical dimensions of the policy challenge from the politics. To what extent are Western concerns simply a matter of a lack of trust, given the tight relationship between Chinese companies and the state? Can anything be done to alleviate these concerns, or is the larger structural force of major power rivalry depriving individual governments of any agency to arrest this trend?

The structural forces potentially driving the decoupling phenomenon link up with the next major theme—the future of international cooperation. The term “Five Eyes” has been appearing in the media a lot lately in multiple different contexts—what should we make of this trend? Does the future of international cooperation lie through the filter of trusted security partnerships, and isn’t that a problem for truly global problems like climate change?

Finally, the conversation concludes with a focus on Australian foreign policy. How well suited are the traditional instruments of Australia’s power and influence to the present moment? Does our path forward involve simply being the best version of ourselves, or is genuinely creative thinking needed to reform Australian diplomacy? And would there be merit in having a foreign affairs version of the recent Defence Strategic Update?

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for research and audio editing, XC Chong for research support and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Richard Maude’s biography via the Asia Society Policy Institute: https://asiasociety.org/policy-institute/richard-maude

Scott Morrison, “Address: Launch of the 2020 Defence Strategic Update”, 1 July 2020: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/address-launch-2020-defence-strategic-update

Little Red Podcast, “Trump’s F*** China moment: An attitude, not a strategy”, 1 August 2020: https://omny.fm/shows/the-little-red-podcast/trumps-f-china-moment-an-attitude-not-a-strategy

Sinica podcast, “Adam Tooze on the geopolitics of the pandemic”, 6 August 2020: https://supchina.com/podcast/adam-tooze-on-the-geopolitics-of-the-pandemic/

Marise Payne, “Australia and the world in the time of COVID-19”, Speech at the National Security College, ANU, 16 June: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/speech/australia-and-world-time-covid-19

This week Allan and Darren welcome back Richard Maude to the podcast, who returns after his first appearance back in February in Episode 41. Until shortly before that first recording, Richard was Deputy Secretary, Indo-Pacific Group, in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Prior to that, he headed the task force responsible for drafting the 2017 Foreign Policy White Paper. From 2013-2016, Richard was Director-General of the Office of National Assessments, and before that he was senior adviser on foreign policy and national security to Prime Minister Julia Gillard. Richard is now at the Asia Society Policy Institute as the inaugural Executive Director, Policy, and Senior Fellow.

Before welcoming Richard however, Darren’s big “secret” is revealed, which is that since late 2018 he has been living in Beirut, accompanying his wife Rebekah Grindlay, who is Australia’s Ambassador to Lebanon, and their children. On Tuesday 4th August, Beirut experienced one of the largest non-nuclear explosions in human history, which utterly devastated the city’s port and downtown area. Darren was at home with his family at the time, and tells the story of what happened next, including the extensive damage to the embassy and injuries to Aussie diplomats. It’s a small insight into what a DFAT crisis response looks like in the immediate aftermath of a terrible tragedy.

Richard is then welcomed, and what follows is a fascinating deep dive into some of the biggest questions of international affairs today, and what they mean for Australian foreign policy. The conversation was too long to fit into a single episode and so, in this first part, the focus is exclusively on the United States, which as the Australian government says in the recent Defence Strategic Update, remains vital for the security of our region. But can Washington continue to play the role Australia hopes, and needs, it to play? Darren asks both Richard and Allan to highlight what evidence from the Trump presidency, and the country’s COVID-19 response, helps shed light on this broader question. Is America experiencing political decay? Are the strengths that enabled it to win the Cold War now hindrances in competition with China? What does the US need to do well to continue to play a significant role in the region, and what can Australia do to help? Can Canberra perhaps mitigate some of Washington’s weaknesses?

Stay tuned for part 2, where the conversation turns to China, new models of international cooperation, and the future of Australian foreign policy.

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Richard Maude’s biography via the Asia Society Policy Institute: https://asiasociety.org/policy-institute/richard-maude

Australian Government, “2020 Defence Strategic Update and 2020 Force Structure Plan”, Department of Defence: https://www.defence.gov.au/strategicupdate-2020/

Ross Douthat, “The revolt of the republican strategists”, New York Times, 11 August 2020: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/opinion/trump-republicans-lincoln-project.html

On this week’s episode, the deteriorating relationship between Washington and Beijing takes centre stage, including the consulate closures in Houston and Chengdu. What’s going on, and why now? How much is this all about American electoral politics, and does that even matter? Perhaps most important, how much of the trajectory of the relationship is the result of the Trump administration specifically—and could be changed if Joe Biden wins in November—and how much is structural and will persist no matter who prevails in the presidential election?

Australia’s Foreign and Defence Ministers made the big decision to travel in person to Washington DC for the annual AUSMIN consultations. But before they arrived, Australia publicly clarified its position on the South China Sea, broadly rejecting the sweeping nature of China’s maritime claims. Was the timing significant, and should we see this action more through the lens of US-China rivalry, or the positions of the other claimant states? Turning to AUSMIN, how consequential was the decision of the ministers to travel, and what messages did it send? Notwithstanding the symbolism of being there in person, the Australian side sought to establish its independence, and Allan and Darren offer their overall assessments of the meeting.

Finally, the two discuss the Defence Strategic Update, juxtaposing it with a recently announced staffing reduction at DFAT.

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing and XC Chong for research support. Thanks as always to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant Links

Edward Wong and Steven Lee Myers, “Officials push US-China Relations toward point of no return” New York times, 25 July 2020: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/25/world/asia/us-china-trump-xi.html

Sui-Lee Wee and Paul Mozur, “China Uses DNA to Map Faces, With Help From the West”, New York Times, 3 December 2019: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/03/business/china-dna-uighurs-xinjiang.html

The Ezra Klein Show, “Your questions, answered”, June 2020: https://player.fm/series/the-ezra-klein-show/your-questions-answered

Rebecca Strating, “Australia lays down the law in the South China Sea dispute”, Lowy Interpreter, 25 July 2020: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/australia-lays-down-law-south-china-sea-dispute

Joint Statement Australia-U.S. Ministerial Consultations (AUSMIN) 2020: https://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/united-states-of-america/ausmin/joint-statement-ausmin-2020

Australia-United States Ministerial Consultations (AUSMIN), Transcript, 29 July 2020: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/transcript/australia-united-states-ministerial-consultations-ausmin

Stephen Dziedzic, “Foreign Minister makes clear Australia will not be boxed in when it comes to China or the US”, ABC News, 29 July 2020: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-29/ausmin-australia-united-states-china-relationship-diplomacy/12502222

Japan-Australia Leaders VTC Meeting, Media Release, 9 July 2020: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/japan-australia-leaders-vtc-meeting

Rory Medcalf, “Shinzo Abe has made Japan a leader again”, Australian Financial Review, 10 July 2020: https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/shinzo-abe-has-made-japan-a-leader-again-20200710-p55av8

2020 Defence Strategic Update and Force Structure Plan: https://www.defence.gov.au/strategicupdate-2020/

Scott Morrison, “Address: Launch of the 2020 Defence Strategic Update”, 1 July 2020: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/address-launch-2020-defence-strategic-update

Sam Roggeveen, “Regional security depends on making order from chaos” Lowy Interpreter, 18 July 2020: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/publications/regional-security-depends-making-order-chaos

Dave Sharma, “A diplomatic step-up to match our military step-up”, Lowy Interpreter, 13 July 2020: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/diplomatic-step-match-our-military-step

Jonathan Pryke, “DFAT cuts show our foreign policy’s khaki tinge”, Lowy Interpreter, 20 July 2020: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/publications/dfat-cuts-show-our-foreign-policy-khaki-tinge

Zack Cooper and Charles Edel, “Australia is having a strategic revolution, and it’s all about China”, Foreign Policy, 22 July 2020: https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/22/australia-military-strategy-regional-policy-china/

Allan Gyngell and Isabella Keith, “New feature: The week in Australian foreign policy”, Australian Outlook, 3 July 2020: http://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/new-feature-current-events-in-australian-foreign-policy/

Sam Sodomsky, “The National’s Aaron Dessner Talks Taylor Swift’s New Album folklore”, Pitchfork, 24 July 2020: https://pitchfork.com/news/the-nationals-aaron-dessner-talks-taylor-swifts-new-album-folklore/

Allan and Darren welcome Stephen Dziedzic to the podcast, who covers foreign affairs in the Asia Pacific region for Australia’s national broadcaster, the ABC, based at Parliament House in Canberra. Stephen has spent more than a decade at the ABC, including five years covering federal politics. He also spent two years working for the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade at the Australian High Commission in New Delhi.

The way the media covers international affairs and Australian foreign policy has come up several times on the podcast before, and at times Allan and Darren have both expressed their frustration at some of the reporting! Stephen is asked, if not to defend, at least to explain how the media operates in reporting on Australia in the world in the year 2020, and the rationale behind the coverage.

After Stephen provides an overview of his career to date and interest in international affairs, Allan begins by asking how the media landscape has changed since the publication of Allan’s book in 2007 (co-authored with Michael Wesley), Making Australian Foreign Policy. To what extent do the traditional media outlets still act as gatekeepers? The conversation moves to some of the ins and outs of covering foreign policy in Canberra, such as government “drops” of major speeches, and dealing with embassies. Allan asks Stephen for his impression of whether DFAT does a good job of selling itself, in light of a recent critique by Dave Sharma MP.

Darren looks to zoom out, asking Stephen about the broader media landscape. How much room is there for foreign policy content and what does it mean for a story to be newsworthy? What about variation in coverage—how different is the ABC to the major broadsheets, and what about the tabloids? After his recent brush with tabloid fame, Allan puts to Stephen the critique that editors act like TV “showrunners”, working to ensure that whatever twists the plot takes, it remains faithful to a predetermined overall narrative. Is that critique unfair? Stephen’s thoughtful response covers a lot of ground, including many of the tricky ethical issues involved and the civic responsibilities of journalists. Following on, Darren is particularly interested in the decision to grant anonymity to government leaks.

Allan muses about how difficult it is to get ministers to focus on issues of long-term importance, and the immediacy of media coverage creates similar challenges. How can a journalist turn something s/he knows to be important into news, and does social media help or hurt with that?

In the final part of the conversation, Darren pivots to domestic politics, and asks specifically about the “Wolverines” group of MPs who take a hard line on China policy. Is there a political logic to their grouping? Allan asks if generational differences may play a role in explaining divides on China policy. The interview concludes on the distinction between “public interest” and “national interest” in an era of growing geopolitical rivalry.

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Stephen Dziedzic’s ABC page: https://www.abc.net.au/news/stephen-dziedzic/166934?nw=0

Dave Sharma, “A diplomatic step-up to match our military step up”, Lowy Interpreter, 13 July 2020: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/diplomatic-step-match-our-military-step

Michael Koziol, “'Seriously damaging': ASIO says advice on border security was misrepresented”, Sydney Morning Herald, 18 February 2019: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/seriously-damaging-asio-says-advice-on-border-security-was-misrepresented-20190218-p50ykq.html

As Allan and Darren commence with their next 50 episodes, they begin with the 2020 Lowy Poll. Allan in particular is interested in the rise in Australians saying they do not feel safe, and Darren wonders what impact this will have on public attitudes towards security policy. Meanwhile, Darren is interested whether the poll reflects the sentiments expressed in PM Morrison's "negative globalism" speech last year. 

Tensions at the Line of Actual Control (LAC) that represents the disputed border between India and China are next on the agenda. While both sides seem to want to deescalate tensions, the question is what the longer term impacts might be. Just as China's recent actions have affected domestic politics inside Australia, Darren wonders whether the deaths of Indian soldiers might push India firmly into the "balancing" column. Moreover, with New Delhi's decision to ban the China-based app Tik-Tok and a number of other Chinese apps, these consequences appear to be extending beyond the military domain.

Drama continues to define bilateral relations between Australia and China. Darren opts to focus this week on a recent report from state-owned tabloid the Global Times, which says the Chinese government had uncovered an Australian intelligence operation. These claims were supported by Chinese government spokesperson Zhao Lijian who made note that 'irrefutable evidence' of the operation existed. What might this mean for Australian nationals within China, and how can the Australian government protect its citizens? Darren looks to DFAT's 'smarttraveller' travel advice website for answers, and in doing so discovers a fresh update on Hong Kong, in light of the new national security law being imposed by Beijing. 

Finally, Darren gives Allan the opportunity to respond to his own appearance in the headlines of certain Australian tabloid newspapers in recent weeks, after he was invited to speak on China to the Labor Party shadow cabinet. While Allan has recovered fully from this brush with infamy, both he and Darren worry about what these events say about the health of Australia's political institutions. 

We thank incoming AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing, and bid farewell to Maddie Gordon with many thanks. Thanks as always to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. 

Relevant Links

Lowy Poll 2020: https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/

Darren Lim, "A pivot to globalism, but grievances lurk", Lowy Interpreter, 24 June: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/pivot-globalism-grievances-lurk

Mohamed Younis, "Americans Want More, Not Less, Immigration for First Time", Gallup, 1 July: https://news.gallup.com/poll/313106/americans-not-less-immigration-first-time.aspx

Fan Lingzhi and Yang Sheng, "Australia wages espionage offensive against China: source", Global Times, 29 June: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1192847.shtml

Stephen Dziedzic, "China steps up attacks on Australia, says spying allegations just 'the tip of the iceberg'", ABC News, 30 June: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-30/china-step-up-attacks-on-australia-accuses-government-of-spying/12405842

Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, smartraveller.gov.au, travel advice for China: https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/destinations/asia/china

And travel advice for Hong Kong: https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/destinations/asia/hong-kong

"Andrew Hastie and 'Wolverines' are 'crossing a line': Former DFAT head" (Dennis Richardson's defence of Allan on Sky News), 24 June: https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6166846553001

Penny Wong, transcript of interview with Patricia Karvelas (ABC Afternoon Briefing), 25 June 2020: https://www.pennywong.com.au/transcripts/abc-news-afternoon-briefing-9/

China Matters website: http://chinamatters.org.au

Bob Dylan's 'I Contain Multitudes' discussed on the ABC's The Music Show with Robert Adamson

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/musicshow/dylan-the-new-graces-robert-adamson-candelo-roughandrowdyways/12392030

Letterkenny pilot opening scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rSBmOgpcDE

On the occasion of the podcast’s 50th episode, Allan and Darren are thrilled to welcome Australia’s most senior diplomat and foreign policy official, Frances Adamson, the Secretary of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the first woman to hold this appointment. The interview was conducted on Wednesday 17 June 2020.

Immediately prior to her appointment as Secretary in August 2016, Frances was International Adviser to Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull. From 2011 to 2015, she was Ambassador to the People's Republic of China, also the first woman appointed to this role.

Previously, Frances served in the Australian Consulate-General in Hong Kong in the late 1980s during the early years of China's reform and opening. From 2001 to 2005, she was seconded as Representative to the Australian Commerce and Industry Office in Taipei. She was also posted twice in London, including as Deputy High Commissioner.

She was Chief of Staff to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and then the Minister for Defence from 2009 to 2010.

The conversation begins with Allan asking about how Frances, and the Department, have been dealing with the Covid-19 crisis, and Darren wonders whether the pandemic is upending the traditional practices of diplomacy. The discussion moves to the 2017 Foreign Policy White Paper – in the time since, has Frances been more surprised by the pace of change, or its direction?

Foreign policy elites have arguably been repudiated by recent political developments, such as Brexit and Donald Trump’s election victory. Allan asks Frances for her views on the political forces behind these events, and what the foreign policy establishment in Australia can learn.

Zooming out, and noting that the international system is in a state of disequilibrium at the moment, Darren asks Frances to describe how she hopes the order will settle over the next few decades. Referring to Foreign Minister’s Marise Payne’s speech the previous evening, Allan asks Frances for more detail about the audit of Australia’s participation in multilateral organisations that was recently completed. Darren asks specifically about the role of “middle powers” – should they specialise given their resources are limited?

The conversation moves to China. With so much material out there, what’s a good entry point for Australians seeking to learn about China, and make sense of the daily barrage of media coverage? What does it mean for both sides to “work harder” to manage the relationship? And Darren asks about the state of debate inside China – are there still live debates about the big questions of international affairs within the Chinese system, and has China made up its mind about Australia?

In the final part of the podcast, Darren asks about the balance between generalists and specialists in Australia’s diplomatic corps, and about effective models of work/life balance that Frances has seen in her career.

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. On this milestone episode, we also extend our heartfelt thanks to all our past interns. Without their help we could never have come this far. Thank you to Stephanie Rowell, Mani Bovell, Charlie Henshall, James Hayne, Isabel Hancock and XC Chong.

Relevant links

Biography of Ms Frances Adamson: https://www.dfat.gov.au/about-us/our-people/executive/Pages/biography-of-frances-adamson

IPAA Podcast, “Getting Australians Home – The unfolding story: Frances Adamson.  https://www.ipaa.org.au/getting-australians-home-the-unfolding-story-frances-adamson/

Marise Payne, “Australia and the world in the time of COVID-19”, Speech at the National Security College, ANU, 16 June 2020: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/speech/australia-and-world-time-covid-19

Evan Osnos, Age of Ambition: Chasing Fortune, Truth and Faith in the New China: https://www.penguin.com.au/books/age-of-ambition-9781448190607 

Richard McGregor, The Party: https://www.penguin.com.au/books/the-party-9780141975559

ANU Centre on China in the World, The China Story Yearbook: https://www.thechinastory.org/yearbooks/

China Matters: http://chinamatters.org.au/

After a month away from the news, this episode Allan and Darren try to catch up. They begin with tragedy and turmoil in the United States. What do the protests and racial tensions—and Trump’s efforts to handle them—say about the US? Are there any implications for Australia? Turning next to recent events in Australian foreign policy, we now have a Comprehensive Strategic Partnership with India—is this significant? And what should PM Morrison do about President Trump’s invitation to the (delayed) G-7 summit in September?

Next, while noting the story is not over, Darren asks Allan for what lessons he draws from the Australian government’s call for an independent inquiry into the early handling of Covid-19, and everything followed, culminating in the World Health Assembly resolution in mid-May. Hong Kong is next on the agenda, with a focus on the logic behind Australia’s decision to issue two joint statements criticising Beijing's recent moves, rather than going it alone, as New Zealand did.

Finally, geoeconomic issues are very much back in Australian news, with proposed new foreign investment review powers for the government, a travel warning issued for Australia by the Chinese government, and reporting that the Five Eyes grouping is considering a coordinated strategic economic response to the Covid-19 crisis. What do Allan and Darren make of all this?

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing, XC Chong for research support, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Ta-Nehisi Coates on the Ezra Klein show podcast: https://www.vox.com/2020/6/5/21279530/ta-nehisi-coates-ezra-klein-show-george-floyd-police-brutality-trump-biden

Joint Statement on a Comprehensive Strategic Partnership between Republic of India and Australia, 4 June 2020: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/joint-statement-csp-republic-india-australia

World Health Organization, “Covid-19 Response”, 73rd World Health Assembly, Agenda Item 3, 18 May 2020: https://apps.who.int/gb/ebwha/pdf_files/WHA73/A73_CONF1Rev1-en.pdf

Editorial Board, “The Coronavirus Inquiry”, Wall Street Journal, 19 May 2020:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-coronavirus-inquiry-11589930551

Chen Qingqing and Liu Xin, “Australia gets ‘slap to the face’ as global community welcomes China-sponsored resolution on COVID-19”, Global Times, 19 May 2020: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1188817.shtml

Stephen Dziedzic, “Australia started a fight with China over an investigation into COVID-19 — did it go too hard?” ABC News, 20 May 2020: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-20/wha-passes-coronavirus-investigation-australia-what-cost/12265896

Joint statement on Hong Kong national security legislation, 23 May 2020: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/joint-statement-hong-kong-national-security-legislation

Joint statement on Hong Kong, 28 May 2020: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/joint-statement-hong-kong

The Little Red Podcast (Facebook page): https://www.facebook.com/LittleRedPodcast/

David Crowe, “Foreign deals set to face tougher security checks”, Sydney Morning Herald, 4 June 2020: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/foreign-deals-set-to-face-tougher-security-checks-20200604-p54zki.html

Max Koslowski, “Almost 400 anti-China attacks since pandemic began”, Sydney Morning Herald, 7 June 2020: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/almost-400-anti-china-attacks-since-pandemic-began-20200607-p550a8.html

Simon Benson, “Five Eyes focus on economic pact”, The Australian, 8 June 2020: https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/politics/five-eyes-expanded-to-focus-on-economic-pact/news-story/31ee5e37f1942a8188535d4f7585daa1

National Security Podcast, Foreign Investment and national security with Jeff Wilson, 10 June 2020: https://www.policyforum.net/national-security-podcast-foreign-investment-and-national-security/

Wind of Change podcast: https://crooked.com/podcast-series/wind-of-change/

Ta-Nehisi Coates, Between the World and Me:

https://www.amazon.com.au/Between-World-Me-Ta-Nehisi-Coates-ebook/dp/B00SEFAIRI

Sarah Cooper’s twitter feed: https://twitter.com/sarahcpr

Martin Gurri, The Revolt of the public and the crisis of authority (Goodreads page): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22451908-the-revolt-of-the-public-and-the-crisis-of-authority

Allan and Darren welcome Harinder Sidhu to the podcast to discuss India and Australia-India relations. A Deputy Secretary in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Harinder recently returned from a posting as the Australian High Commissioner in New Delhi. Before she went to India, Harinder headed the multilateral division of DFAT while Australia was on the UN Security Council. Prior to that, she spent time in the Department of Climate Change, the Office of National Assessments, and the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. She’s also previously had postings in Damascus and Moscow.

The conversation begins with India itself. What is the spectrum of views inside India regarding the role it should be playing in the world? How much does India’s domestic political system—both its strengths and continuing challenges—influence its behaviour on the international stage? What is India’s "pitch" for international leadership, and what would be the characteristics of an Indian "model" of international order? And does Covid-19 change the answers to these questions?

Turning to Australia’s relationship with India, while successive Australian governments have tended to “discover” India only for the relationship to recede, why might the foundations for a stronger and more durable partnership now be in place? What’s the Indian view of the bilateral relationship? What role does the Indian diaspora in Australia play, and what about Australians who are in India?

Finally, what was Harinder’s own experience as High Commissioner as a woman of Indian heritage? And Darren finishes with a very on-brand question for the podcast, asking for Harinder's views on the need to integrate economics and security into policymaking.

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Harinder Sidhu, “Celebrating the ties that bind”, Speech at Hawker Ball, the opening of the Asia Society Australia Centre, Melbourne, 3 October 2019: https://asiasociety.org/australia/celebrating-ties-bind

University of Sydney, “Meet Australia’s High Commissioner to India”, 20 November 2019: https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2019/11/20/meet-australias-high-commissioner-to-india.html

Australian PM Scott Morrison’s Message for Raisina Dialogue 2020, 14 January 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM023sUFvwg

Allan and Darren welcome Dr Heather Smith PSM to the podcast. Until January 2020, Heather was Secretary of the Department of Industry, Innovation and Science, which followed serving as Secretary of the Department of Communications and the Arts. Before that she was a Deputy Secretary in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet (including serving as G20 Sherpa in 2014 when Australia held the G20 Presidency) and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, as well as a Deputy Director General in the Office of National Assessments. She has also held senior jobs in Treasury, the Reserve Bank of Australia, and the Australian National University.

The interview begins with the G20, which has not performed well during the Covid-19 crisis. Is it salvageable, and what concrete things should Australia be advocating for? What else can Australia do to help our regional partners during this unprecedented crisis?

Darren shifts the conversation to industrial policy—the topic of Heather’s economics PhD thesis! How does she understand advocacy across the West for a more active state, and how is Australia positioned? Notwithstanding the vulnerabilities exposed by Covid-19, is resilience in our supply chains even realistic? And how does she view the expanding concept of national security, especially as it applies to critical technologies?

The conversation turns to the rise of populism—to what extent is economic grievance the major driver, and does Covid-19 offer a chance to “reset” public policy in its aftermath?

Allan then asks Heather, who holds a PhD in economics, what she as an economist is most likely to get wrong when observing and analysing the world? And as a non-economist, what is the thing she’s most likely to miss?

Finally, Heather, Allan and Darren all take turns in answering the question: what do you expect to be different in Australia’s world after Covid-19?

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Heather Smith, “Doing policy differently”, Keynote Address, Institute of Public Administration Australia, 22 March 2018: https://vs286790.blob.core.windows.net/docs/Transcript_Doing%20Policy%20Differently_Dr%20Heather%20Smith_22%20March%202018.pdf

Heather Smith and Allan Gyngell, “Technology will unite the post-virus world order”, Australian Financial Review, 23 April 2020: https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/technology-will-unite-the-post-virus-world-order-20200422-p54m4v

This week Allan and Darren devote the entire episode to a wild and very tense few weeks in the bilateral relationship between Australia and China. These events kicked off with Foreign Minister Marise Payne’s call for an inquiry into China’s handling of the coronavirus outbreak, and snowballed from there, in particular with an interview conducted by China’s ambassador to Australia, duelling press releases from the Chinese embassy and DFAT, and interventions from mining magnate Andrew “Twiggy” Forrest.  

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing, XC Chong for research support, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

ABC article covering FM Payne’s call for an inquiry: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-19/payne-calls-for-inquiry-china-handling-of-coronavirus-covid-19/12162968

SBS report on PM Morrison’s first comments: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/australia-and-china-clash-over-independent-inquiry-into-coronavirus-pandemic

Sydney Morning Herald report on PM Morrison talking to UN, Germany, France: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/morrison-pushes-for-global-review-into-handling-of-covid-19-20200421-p54lub.html

Peter Hartcher column in the Sydney Morning Herald: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-week-australia-stood-up-to-china-and-global-giants-20200424-p54n3c.html

Embassy of PRC in Australia, transcript of Ambassador Cheng’s interview with AFR: http://au.china-embassy.org/eng/sghdxwfb_1/t1773741.htm

Report on the response from Marise Payne and Penny Wong: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/what-is-needed-is-global-cooperation-marise-payne-slaps-down-beijing-s-boycott-threat-20200427-p54njj.html  

Darren’s analysis (co-authored with Victor Ferguson) on the ABC website covering the ambassador’s interview: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-29/china-boycott-diplomacy--coronavirus-comes-more-government/12194482  

Trade Minister Simon Birmingham’s ABC interview transcript: https://www.trademinister.gov.au/minister/simon-birmingham/transcript/interview-abc-radio-canberra-am-sabra-lane-2

Embassy of PRC in Australia, response to media question regarding the Adamson phone call: http://au.china-embassy.org/eng/sghdxwfb_1/t1774089.htm  

DFAT response: https://www.dfat.gov.au/news/media-release/dfat-statement-regarding-comments-embassy-peoples-republic-china  

Article covering Kerry Stokes: https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/kerry-stokes-calls-for-china-backdown-urges-canberra-to-respect-wet-markets-20200430-p54ohj.html

Albert Hirschman, National Power and the Structure of Foreign Trade (1945): https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520301337/national-power-and-the-structure-of-foreign-trade

Money Heist (Netflix): https://www.netflix.com/title/80192098

Dustin O’Halloran (composer of “Arrival”), Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dustin_O%27Halloran

Ramin Djawadi (composer of “Light of the Seven”), Podcast interview on Song Exploder: http://songexploder.net/ramin-djawadi

Operation Rising Lion, Israel’s attack on Iran that began over the weekend, could be the beginning of something very big, and very bad. Or it could lead to the downfall of a regime who few would mourn, not to mention a reduced risk of nuclear proliferation. It’s too early to say, but in the spirit of exploring the dynamics of the issue Darren is joined again by Stephen Dziedzic of the ABC to talk through the last few days and what they might mean. Along the way, Stephen explains the possible implications of President Trump cancelling his meeting with PM Albanese at the G7 to return to Washington.

Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.

Relevant links

“Wong outlines 'very perilous situation' in Middle East | Insiders | ABC News” (video), 15 June 2025: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vumMIJO7LQ

Covid-19 remains central to the news this week. Allan and Darren begin with President Trump’s decision to freeze U.S. funding to the World Health Organization, and assess the validity his criticisms. Australia’s Foreign Minister Marise Payne has proposed an inquiry, but is there even an alternative? And does this case tell us anything new about great power rivalry and the future of the international order?

Darren is curious to explore the concept of “mask diplomacy”, a term used to describe deliveries of equipment and supplies by China to other countries stricken by the coronavirus. How should we think about this form of statecraft, and how novel is it, really?

In the final segment, Darren asks Allan to explain what’s behind a change in DFAT’s organisation chart, with many new senior positions being created as part of the whole-of-government response to Covid-19. Allan describes some of the many things the department is doing, and also weighs in on a (small) controversy regarding the recall of Australia’s ambassador to Indonesia.

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing, XC Chong for research support, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Jeff Mason and Steve Holland, “Trump halts World Health Organization funding amid coronavirus pandemic”, Reuters, 15 April: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-trump-who/trump-halts-world-health-organization-funding-amid-coronavirus-pandemic-idUSKCN21W34Y

Brett Worthington, “Marise Payne calls for global inquiry into China's handling of the coronavirus outbreak”, ABC News, 19 April: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-19/payne-calls-for-inquiry-china-handling-of-coronavirus-covid-19/12162968

Geoff Raby, “Why the bell must toll for WHO chief Tedros”, Australian Financial Review, 17 April: https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/why-the-bell-must-toll-for-who-chief-tedros-20200417-p54kpe

Alexander Downer, “China must be held to account for unleashing a global catastrophe”, Australian Financial Review, 19 April: https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/china-must-be-held-to-account-for-unleashing-a-global-catastrophe-20200419-p54l3o

Allan Gyngell, “Australia in a post-Covid-19 world”, East Asia Forum, 29 March: https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2020/03/29/australia-in-a-post-covid-19-world/

Ilyana Kuziemko and Eric Werker, “How Much Is a Seat on the Security Council Worth? Foreign Aid and Bribery at the United Nations”, Journal of Political Economy 114(5) (2006), pp. 905-930: https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/kuziemko/files/kuziemko_werker.pdf

Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Organisation Chart, April 2020: https://www.dfat.gov.au/sites/default/files/dfat-org-chart-19-april.pdf

Amanda Hodge, “Coronavirus: Canberra ‘condescending’ over withdrawal of ambassador to Indonesia”, The Australian, 16 April: https://www.theaustralian.com.au/world/canberra-condescending-over-withdrawal-of-ambassador-to-indonesia/news-story/282edc6f297cead2c78197fdfa07cf93

Peter Edwards, “Law, Politics and Intelligence: A life of Robert Hope”, NewSouth: https://www.newsouthbooks.com.au/books/biography-robert-marsden-hope-qc/ 

Knives Out (film): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8946378/

This week Allan and Darren try to step back from Covid-19, and have a long-planned conversation about the United States: its domestic politics, its role in the world, and the state of the alliance relationship with Australia. Allan begins by asking Darren for his assessment of what’s happening inside the US right now, amid an upcoming presidential election, the challenge of the coronavirus, and of course the non-stop news cycle that is the Trump presidency. How much will Covid-19 affect the presidential campaign? The two discuss the bipartisan hardening of attitudes towards China, the near-complete absence of US leadership during the Covid-19 crisis, and how much of the damage to Washington’s global reputation might be washed away if Trump loses in November.

Turning to the alliance, Allan draws upon his recent book—Fear of Abandonment—to provide background and context to the bilateral relationship from Australia’s perspective. Darren wonders whether the alliance matters much as a formal treaty, or whether the shared interests and values of the two nations are sufficient both to sustain cooperation, and draw them together in a crisis. Next, Allan analyses Lowy poll data showing that Australians trust the United States less, but still seem to agree that we need the alliance. Looking ahead, what will the likely frictions be between Canberra and Washington, and should Australia constantly be looking to do “more” to enhance the relationship? Thinking about the practice of Australian foreign policy, is managing the alliance relationship different to managing relations with China? And finally, do we know enough now to make an assessment of the future capability and resolve of the United States to be active in our region, as Hugh White’s recent book argues we must?

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing, XC Chong for research support, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Allan Gyngell, Fear of Abandonment: Australia in the World since 1942: https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/fear-abandonment

Joe Biden, “Why America must lead again: Rescuing U.S. foreign policy after Trump”, Foreign Affairs, January 2020: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-01-23/why-america-must-lead-again

Natasha Kassam, Lowy Institute Poll 2019: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/publications/lowy-institute-poll-2019 

Charles Edel and John Lee, “The future of the US-Australia alliance in an era of great power competition”, United States Studies Centre, 13 June 2019: https://www.ussc.edu.au/analysis/the-future-of-the-us-australia-alliance-in-an-era-of-great-power-competition

Michael Green and Andrew Shearer, “Countering China’s militarization of the Indo-Pacific”, War on the Rocks, 23 April 2018: https://warontherocks.com/2018/04/countering-chinas-militarization-of-the-indo-pacific/

Hugh White, How to defend Australia: https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/how-defend-australia

Ezra Klein Show, Interview with Evan Osnos: https://www.vox.com/2020/3/31/21200192/coronavirus-china-donald-trump-the-ezra-klein-show

Peter Hessler “The Peace Corps Breaks Ties with China’, The New Yorker, 9 March 2020: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/03/16/the-peace-corps-breaks-ties-with-china

Peter Hessler, River Town: Two Years on the Yangtze: https://www.harpercollins.com/9780060855024/river-town/

Flow State (newsletter): https://flowstate.substack.com/

Covid-19 will have a profound long-term impact on the world, both within countries and internationally. In this episode, Allan and Darren make some guesses as to how the world will look different after this crisis has passed, and how Australia can position itself accordingly. They begin with the global balance of power: will China emerge as the big “winner”, or could the US rehabilitate its leadership credentials (in particular if Joe Biden wins the presidency in November)?

Prime Minister Scott Morrison said in parliament this week that Australia would prove that liberal democracies can cope with a challenge liked Covid-19. Is there a battle of “narratives” between democratic and authoritarian systems? With borders closing and economies slowing dramatically, advocates of sovereignty must be pleased—how will the crisis feed into the trend towards a greater reassertion of sovereignty, the decoupling phenomenon, and the greater willingness of governments to intervene in markets? And what about the rules-based order which, aged in its mid-70s and with underlying health conditions, is in a high risk category to fall victim to the coronavirus?

Finally, Allan offers some thoughts about how the practice of diplomacy might change, and both he and Darren consider how the Australian government ought to be planning for a post Covid-19 world. 

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank new AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing, XC Chong and Isabel Hancock for research support and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. 

Relevant links

Scott Morrison, Ministerial Statement, 23 March 2020: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/ministerial-statement-australian-parliament-house-act

Hilary Mantel, The Mirror and the Light: https://www.harpercollins.com.au/9780007480999/the-mirror-and-the-light/ 

Allan and Darren commence with an update on the novel coronavirus, now called Covid-19. How should we evaluate China’s handling of the outbreak? Given the struggles of some democratic systems—the United States in particular—is an authoritarian approach best for public health crises? Allan attended a recent speech by Labor parliamentarian Tim Watts on the health of Australia's democracy, and Watts' argument resonates here. Staying in Australia, the Morrison government has been on the front foot regarding Covid-19, getting out ahead of the World Health Organisation in declaring a pandemic—have we lost trust in the WHO, and what does the global response tell us about international cooperation more generally? 

The conversation turns to ASIO, the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation, and the first annual threat assessment delivered by Director-General Mike Burgess. How does Allan feel about ASIO “coming out of the shadows” like this and what are some of the drawbacks of establishing an annual statement? Is this a positive thing for Australia’s democracy? Should DFAT be looking to do something similar?

Finally, Prime Minister Morrison recently hosted the Indonesian President Joko Widodo and New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern for separate bilateral visits. Allan offers his thoughts on the state of both bilateral relationships while Darren asks: are Australia and Indonesia in a bit of a holding pattern right now, and does Allan have any advice for PM Ardern to get traction on the deportation issue, currently a major source of tension?   

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank outgoing AIIA intern Isabel Hancock for her help with research and audio editing, and XC Chong for research, and also welcome incoming AIIA intern Maddy Gordon. Thanks also to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. 

Relevant links

Elizabeth Pisani, “The unpalatable lesson of coronavirus: dictatorships can be effective”, Prospect Magazine, 28 February 2020: https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/the-unpalatable-lesson-of-coronavirus-dictatorships-can-be-effective-china-world-health-organisation

Australian Government, Biosecurity Act 2015: https://www.legislation.gov.au/Series/C2015A00061

Peter Hartcher, “How Australia defied global health authority on coronavirus”, Sydney Morning Herald, 28 February 2020: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/how-australia-defied-global-health-authority-on-coronavirus-20200228-p545hr.html

Tim Watts, “Democracy and the authoritarian challenge”, Lowy Lecture Series, National Press Club, Canberra, 27 February 2020: https://www.timwatts.net.au/news/transcripts/lowy-lecture-series-democracy-and-the-authoritarian-challenge/

Lee Hsien Loong, “on the COVID-19 situation in Singapore”, 8 February 2020: https://www.pmo.gov.sg/Newsroom/PM-Lee-Hsien-Loong-on-the-Novel-Coronavirus-nCoV-Situation-in-Singapore-on-8-February-2020

Mike Burgess, “Director-General’s Annual Threat Assessment”, Australian Security Intelligence Organisation, 24 February 2020: https://www.asio.gov.au/director-generals-annual-threat-assessment.html

“Address by His Excellency Mr Joko Widodo, President of the Republic of Indonesia”, 9 February 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YnetrtC73M

ABC News, “Tensions rise between Morrison and Ardern over deportation of criminals”, 28 February 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGc2s9YCmGA

Andy Greenburg , Sandworm: A New Era of Cyberwar and the Hunt for the Kremlin’s Most Dangerous Hacker: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/597684/sandworm-by-andy-greenberg/9780385544405

Rory Medcalf, Contest for the Indo-Pacific: Why China Won’t Map the Future: https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/contest-indo-pacific

David Brooks, “The nuclear family was a mistake”, The Atlantic, March 2020: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/03/the-nuclear-family-was-a-mistake/605536/

This week Allan and Darren interview Richard Maude, who needs no introduction to regular observers of Australian foreign policy. Until recently, Richard was Deputy Secretary, Indo-Pacific Group, in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Prior to that, he headed the task force responsible for drafting the 2017 Foreign Policy White Paper. From 2013-2016, Richard was Director-General of the Office of National Assessments, and before that he was senior adviser on foreign policy and national security to Prime Minister Julia Gillard. Richard has now taken on a new position at the Asia Society Policy Institute as the inaugural Executive Director, Policy, and Senior Fellow.

Allan commences the discussion by asking Richard how he thinks about the “Indo-Pacific” and to describe Australia’s Indo-Pacific strategy. How has the world changed since Richard started working on the Australian Foreign Policy White Paper back in 2016? Darren describes his own shock at the events of 2016, and asks Richard whether he has ever been personally surprised by any events in international affairs which, in turn, caused him to update his own “model” of the world. The conversation then returns to a familiar theme of recent episodes of the podcast, sovereignty, and the logic of Prime Minister Scott Morrison’s emphasis on the concept in developing his government’s foreign policy. Allan contrasts the challenges to the rules-based order that shaped the 2017 Foreign Policy White Paper—in particular relating to the Law of the Sea—with those that have come since, especially emanating from Australia’s allies. Is there still an order to defend and how does a country like Australia do it? And in doing so, will Australia need to be willing to accept trade-offs, such as deemphasising liberalism and democracy, in order to get cooperation on global challenges like climate change, war, or trade?

The conversation moves to China, with Darren asking Richard the extent to which China’s domestic politics factors into his model of China’s behaviour on the world stage, and what major questions remain in his mind regarding China over the coming years. Closer to home, Darren asks whether Richard accepts the premise of two warring “tribes” in the Canberra policymaking community regarding China, and Richard’s answer speaks more broadly to the issue of how to integrate security and economic perspectives into policymaking.

In the final part of the podcast, Allan asks the perennial question of why those who believe that foreign policy is a critical element of Australian statecraft have been unable to convince successive governments to invest in it, while Darren wonders how foreign policy successes can be measured. The podcast concludes with Richard describing his new role with the Asia Society Policy Institute, and reflections on how think tanks and academics can most effectively attract the attention and shape the views of ministers and policy advisers in Canberra.

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj 

We thank AIIA intern Isabel Hancock for research and audio editing, Rory Stenning for composing our theme music and Angus Blackman for technical support in studio.

Relevant links

Richard Maude’s biography via the Asia Society Policy Institute: https://asiasociety.org/policy-institute/richard-maude 

Richard Maude, “Charting a Course for Australia in a Changing Asia”, Asia Society Policy Institute, 13 February 2020: https://asiasociety.org/australia/charting-course-australia-changing-asia

John Kehoe, “The division in Canberra over China”, Australian Financial Review, 2 December 2019: https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/china-power-struggle-in-canberra-20191128-p53f27

Allan and Darren begin this episode with Australia’s response to the novel coronavirus, including the government’s efforts to evacuate Australians from Wuhan, the decision not to charge evacuees, and the decision to the bar entry into Australia of foreigners who have been in or travelled through China. Darren then wonders whether the variation across countries in the response to the virus—notably the hostility of Cambodia’s Prime Minister to wearing masks—is connected to China’s influence.

Next up is the UK’s decision to allow Huawei to participate in the country’s 5G network. Given Australia came to the opposite position, Allan grapples with the fact that he knows and trusts the judgments of individuals involved with both decisions. Darren asks whether there is much precedent for the inventions by four Australian MPs into the UK debate, or the recent piece by former Australian Signals Directorate senior official Simeon Gilding expressing disappointment with the UK’s decision. What’s the path forward now for Australia? Allan and Darren do not entirely agree.

The discussion moves to trade. Now that the Trump administration has neutered the World Trade Organisation’s appellate body by blocking the appointment of new judges, what’s next for the WTO? One interesting possibility is the creation of parallel appellate structures that essentially replicate the WTO model and allow willing countries (including Australia) to prop up the WTO system while a more permanent set of reforms can (hopefully) be negotiated. Finally, Darren asks Allan about bilateral free trade agreements between Australia and both the UK and EU that are on the agenda for 2020.

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

Thanks to AIIA intern Isabel Hancock for research and audio editing, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. 

Relevant links

Jane Norman, “Coronavirus evacuees avoid $1,000 charge for flight from China after Federal Government backs down”, ABC News, 2 February 2020: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-02/government-blames-dfat-for-coronavirus-charge-mix-up/11921846

Hannah Beach, “Quieter response to coronavirus in countries where China holds sway”. New York Times, 2 February 2020: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/02/world/asia/china-coronavirus-philippines-thailand.html

Latika Bourke, “Four Australian MPs urge Britain to ban Huawei”, Sydney Morning Herald, 24 January 2020: https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/four-australian-mps-urge-britain-to-ban-huawei-20200124-p53u9x.html

Simeon Gilding, “5G choices: a pivotal moment in world affairs”, ASPI Strategist, 28 January: https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/5g-choices-a-pivotal-moment-in-world-affairs/

Andrew Tillett and Hans van Leeuwen, “Australian warning over Trump’s WTO bear hug”, Australian Financial Review, 24 January 2020: https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/australian-warning-over-trump-s-wto-bear-hug-20200123-p53u4h

Ivan Krastev and Stephen Holmes, The light that failed: A reckoning, https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/308/308740/the-light-that-failed/9780241345702.html

Scholar’s Stage, “Public intellectuals have short shelf lives—But why?”, 29 January 2020: https://scholars-stage.blogspot.com/2020/01/why-public-intellectuals-have-short.html

Tyler Cowen, “How public intellectuals can extend their shelf lives”, 6 February 2020: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/02/how-public-intellectuals-can-extend-their-shelf-lives.html

Kristen Roupenian, “Cat person”, The New Yorker, 4 December 2017: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/12/11/cat-person

Allan and Darren try something different this episode, with Allan taking the lead in asking Darren about his experience attending the Raisina Dialogue, India’s flagship international affairs conference, held in New Delhi from 14-16 January 2020, and organised the Observer Research Foundation.

The conversation begins with an introduction to Raisina and comparisons with the Shangri-La Dialogue. Allan then asks Darren what his major takeaways were, starting with the current strategic debate in India. The conversation then moves to the often-fraught Sino-Indian relationship, before turning to the recent controversies inside India regarding the status of Muslims—how were these handled at the Dialogue? 

From an Australian perspective, Prime Minister Scott Morrison was scheduled to give the keynote address, but had to cancel to remain in Australia to oversee the bushfire response. Nevertheless, Foreign Minister Marise Payne led a sizeable Australian contingent, and Darren offers some impressions regarding how Australian diplomats manage a foreign minister’s visit. Darren finishes with some personal reflections on the event and whether it changed his thinking.

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

Thanks to AIIA intern Isabel Hancock for research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Observer Research Foundation, Raisina Dialogue homepage: https://www.orfonline.org/raisina-dialogue/

Videos of Raisina Dialogue 2020 Panels:

• Inaugural panel (including Stephen Harper): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZjUoIwDeTg
• Interview with Dr S. Jaishankar, Indian External Affairs Minister: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KufSx9RW-q0
• Panel “Hacking Democracy: Defending Pluralism in the Digital Age” (including Stephen Harper and Marietje Schaake): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqtgZwwsGHY 
• Panel “Plural Waters: Strengthening Democracy in the Indo-Pacific” (including Ram Madhav, BJP General Secretary): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byINgxdHSYc
• Final panel “Coalitions and Consensus: In Defense of Values that Matter” (including Foreign Minister Marise Payne and Deputy National Security Adviser Matt Pottinger): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gotKrQTVKQ4    
• Interview with Javad Zarif, Iranian Foreign Minister: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHIqnQHvrXY
• PM Scott Morrison’s Message for Raisina Dialogue 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM023sUFvwg

Darren Lim, “Scott Morrison wasn’t at the Raisina Dialogue, but his ideas were”, Lowy Interpreter, 29 January 2019: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/scott-morrison-wasn-t-raisina-dialogue-his-ideas-were

In an episode recorded in the second week of December 2019, Allan and Darren welcome Gordon de Brouwer PSM onto the podcast. Gordon has a distinguished public service career in the fields of economics, the environment, energy and international institution building. From 2013-2017 Gordon was Secretary of the Department of Environment and Energy. Prior to that he had been Associate Secretary in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet, including as Australia’s G20 Sherpa at the time the G20 was organising its response to the Global Financial Crisis. Trained as an economist, Gordon has also been a Professor at the ANU and worked at the Reserve Bank of Australia and the Department of Treasury.

The episode begins with Gordon’s assessment of the world being a “particularly messy place”, where he makes the observation that many of the countries that were long considered the bulwark of the international economic system are aggressively attacking it, with a nationalist “winner takes all” mindset. Allan asks whether this means an effective global response would be unlikely if global economic turmoil again strikes, and Gordon explains how much of the problem stems from the (unforeseen) loss of faith in institutions that resulted from the GFC and its aftermath.

The conversation then turns to integrating very different conceptual perspectives into effective policymaking. Gordon explains that “social harmony” or “social wellbeing” is a third dimension that must be integrated along with economics and security, citing how social dislocation can be caused in the way national security questions are discussed, and how more generally a full range of interests and perspectives must be integrated into national security policymaking. By way of example, Gordon uses China’s Belt and Road Initiative to show how integration of a market-based perspective can reduce some of the security vulnerabilities that might arise. What kind of policymaking arrangements in Australia might help resolve conflicting perspectives? Gordon outlines his proposal for an integrated strategy office in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet.

Allan asks Gordon about his experience on the panel of the recent Public Service Review (chaired by David Thodey), and the conversation finishes on the topic of climate change, in which Gordon offers his reflections on how different Australian governments have tried to address the issue, and how the public service must navigate the politics of the policy issues upon which it is asked to provide advice. Why has Australia’s political system not yet been able to develop an effective response? Note that the interview took place before the worst of Australia’s bushfires had occurred.

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We want to thank AIIA intern Isabel Hancock for research and audio editing, XC Chong and James Hayne for research support, Rory Stenning for composing our theme music and Julia Ahrens for technical support in studio. 

Relevant links

Gordon de Brouwer’s biography (via The Nature Conservancy website): https://www.natureaustralia.org.au/about-us/who-we-are/our-people/gordon-de-brouwer--/

Gordon de Brouwer, “Bringing Security and Economics Together in the National Interest”, speech to Research Institute of Economy, Trade and Industry, Tokyo, 21 November 2019 : https://www.rieti.go.jp/jp/events/19112101/pdf/s-1_brouwer_paper.pdf

In their first episode recorded in the new year, Allan and Darren begin with the news. First, they take an international perspective on the catastrophic Australian bushfires, which have become a truly global disaster. How will the bushfires affect Australia’s image and diplomacy abroad, and what about the government’s policy agenda on climate change? Could domestic politics swamp other aspects of Australia’s international agenda? Are there any silver linings from the generosity being shown by the international community? The conversation then turns to the killing of Iranian general Qasem Soleimani by the Trump administration and how Australia may be affected. Is there anything Australia can contribute to deescalating this crisis?

Continuing a practice begun last year, the second half of the podcast looks back at 2019. Allan and Darren each nominate their word of the year: for Allan it’s “sovereignty”, and for Darren it’s “decoupling”. Next, each identifies a notable trend from the past year. For Allan: the decline in the authority of international institutions; for Darren: emerging domestic political cleavages that are having international impacts. Finally, the conversation looks ahead to 2020, in particular how Canberra’s relationship with Beijing might evolve, and what's at stake in the upcoming US presidential election.

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

Thanks to AIIA intern Isabel Hancock for research and audio editing, XC Chong for research support and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Editorial Board, “Australia, the hapless country”, East Asia Forum, 6 January 2020: https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2020/01/06/australia-the-hapless-country/

The Lawfare Podcast Special Edition, “Law and the Soleimani Strike”, 6 January 2020: https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-special-edition-law-and-soleimani-strike

Pod Save the World, “Trump goes to war with Iran”, 3 January 2020: https://crooked.com/podcast/trump-goes-to-war-with-iran/

Salman Ahmed, et al, “U.S. Foreign Policy for the Middle Class: Perspectives From Ohio”, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 10 December 2018: https://carnegieendowment.org/2018/12/10/u.s.-foreign-policy-for-middle-class-perspectives-from-ohio-pub-77779

Salman Ahmed, et al, “U.S. Foreign Policy for the Middle Class: Perspectives From Colorado”, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 5 November 2019: https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/11/05/u.s.-foreign-policy-for-middle-class-perspectives-from-colorado-pub-80112

Our Man: Richard Holbrooke and the End of the American Century by George Packer (Goodreads page): https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/40594328-our-man

The Mandalorian, Disney + : https://disneyplusoriginals.disney.com/show/the-mandalorian

In Part 2 of our exclusive interview with Duncan Lewis AO, DSC, CSC, the recently retired head of ASIO, the conversation turns to the more recent challenge of foreign interference. Duncan has been quoted recently as describing foreign interference as an “existential threat to the nation”, and so Allan begins by asking Duncan to explain how he thinks about foreign interference in Australian politics, and how he would describe its impact. Darren looks to draw some contrasts between how Australia manages the threat of terrorism and how it responds to foreign interference. What is the first line of defence against foreign interference? What are some of the dangers of overreacting to the threat?

The conversation then turns to the new national security and foreign interference laws passed in 2018. Are these laws fit for purpose? What is the balance between the government’s duty to protect, and the individual's right to privacy? What is Duncan’s view of calls for vetting of parliamentary candidates, and is the securitisation of public policy a necessary consequence of dealing with modern threats?

The conversation finishes with the structure of national security policymaking in Australia. Who is the “Minister for National Security”, and what principles should govern decision-making? Finally, what in Duncan’s view are the most important qualities of political leadership?

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We want to thank AIIA intern Isabel Hancock for research and audio editing, XC Chong and James Hayne for research support, Rory Stenning for composing our theme music and also Julia Ahrens for technical support in studio. 

The annual Shangri-La Dialogue took place in Singapore from 30 May to 1 June. Zack Cooper of the American Enterprise Institute attended and returns to the podcast to talk through his impressions with Darren. What did we learn about the Trump administration’s strategy in Asia? Should the region fear abandonment or entrapment more? And what should we make of Secretary of Defense Hegseth’s call for Australia to spend 3.5% of GDP on defence?

Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Hannah Nelson and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.

Relevant links

Remarks by Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth at the 2025 Shangri-La Dialogue in Singapore (As Delivered), 31 May 2025: https://www.defense.gov/News/Speeches/Speech/Article/4202494/remarks-by-secretary-of-defense-pete-hegseth-at-the-2025-shangri-la-dialogue-in/

Huw McKay, “Trump and the art of the (bad faith) deal”, “Lowy Interpreter, 2 June 2025.

Stacie E. Goddard, “The Rise and Fall of Great-Power Competition: Trump’s New Spheres of Influence”, Foreign Affairs, May/June 2025: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/rise-and-fall-great-power-competition#

Net Assessment (podcast), “Great Power Competition or Collusion?”, 29 May 2025: https://www.stimson.org/2025/great-power-competition-or-collusion/

In a first for the podcast, we present our first double episode, an exclusive interview with Duncan Lewis AO, DSC, CSC who until recently was Australia’s Director General of Security, leading ASIO, the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation. In this first part, Allan and Darren discuss Duncan’s remarkable career, which as Allan notes is unique in terms of his experience in senior national security positions. Much of Duncan’s career has been focused on the challenge of terrorism, and this is the main policy focus of Part 1 of this interview.

Duncan joined the Australian army in 1975, rising to become a Major General and head of Special Operations Command, before making the transition to a civilian role in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet, where he quickly became a Deputy Secretary focusing on national security issues, before Prime Minister Kevin Rudd appointed him as Australia’s first National Security Advisor. From there he become Secretary of the Department of Defence, then Ambassador to the EU, NATO, Belgium and Luxembourg, before returning to Australia in 2014 to run ASIO.

Much of the conversation revolves around the unique circumstances of Duncan’s career. He provides his perspective on the 9/11 attacks and the (still ongoing) war in Afghanistan, his transition from the military to the Australian Public Service, what it meant to take the top civilian job running the Department of Defence as an ex-military officer, and being present in Europe at the time UK Prime Minister David Cameron called the Brexit referendum. This first part of the interview then concludes specifically on the topic of terrorism, especially through the lens of Duncan’s role leading ASIO, Australia’s domestic intelligence agency, and how the organisation has adapted to the challenge of terrorism on home soil. Duncan also reflects on some of the controversies he’s been caught up in, and how senior officials must navigate politically sensitive issues in an era when facts themselves are seen as partisan.

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj 

We want to thank AIIA intern Isabel Hancock for research and audio editing, XC Chong and James Hayne for research support, Rory Stenning for composing our theme music and also Julia Ahrens for technical support in studio. 

Relevant links

Duncan’s Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Lewis

“An address by ASIO Director General Duncan Lewis”, Lowy Institute, 4 September 2019: http://www.lowyinstitute.org/news-and-media/multimedia/audio/address-asio-director-general-duncan-lewis

It is simply impossible to ignore China-related news stories in Australia this week, and so Allan and Darren do their best to grapple with the twin bombshell stories of a Chinese defector and asylum seeker, Wang “William” Liqiang, who claims to have information on the activities of Chinese intelligence, and a (now-deceased) individual, Nick Zhao, who reported to ASIO that he was approached to run for the Australian federal parliament. Along the way, a recent speech by former Prime Minister Paul Keating is brought into the conversation, as well as the denial of visas to two Australian parliamentarians to visit China. The episode finishes with an update on the situation in Hong Kong.

As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj

We thank AIIA intern James Hayne for his help with research and audio editing, and XC Chong also for research assistance and audio editing. As always, we’re grateful to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

60 Minutes, “Chinese spy spills secrets to expose Communist espionage”, 24 November 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdR-I35Ladk

Nick McKenzie, Paul Sakkal and Grace Tobin, “The moment a Chinese spy decided to defect to Australia”, The Age, 23 November 2019: https://www.theage.com.au/national/the-moment-a-chinese-spy-decided-to-defect-to-australia-20191122-p53d0x.html

“Chinese embassy says ‘self-proclaimed agent' Wang Liqiang is convicted fraudster”, ABC News, 24 November 2019: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-24/wang-liqiang-convicted-fraudster-says-chinese-embassy-canberra/11733102

Nick McKenzie, Paul Sakkal and Grace Tobin, “China tried to plant its candidate in Federal Parliament, authorities believe”, The Age, 24 November 2019: https://www.theage.com.au/national/china-tried-to-plant-its-candidate-in-federal-parliament-authorities-believe-20191122-p53d9x.html

“Statement from the Director-General of Security, Mike Burgess - response to reporting on foreign interference”, 24 November 2019: https://www.asio.gov.au/statement-director-general-security-mike-burgess-response-reporting-foreign-interference.html 

Paul Keating, “Speech delivered at the Australian Strategic Forum”, 18 November 2019: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/18/paul-keatings-speech-on-australias-china-policy-full-text

Dewey Sim, “Hong Kong protesters’ five demands meant to ‘humiliate’ government, won’t solve city’s issues: Singapore PM”, South China Morning Post, 17 October 2019: https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3033279/hong-kong-protesters-five-demands-meant-humiliate-government

John Hawley, “Senator Hawley Delivers Floor Speech in Support of Hong Kong”, 23 October 2019: https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senator-hawley-delivers-floor-speech-support-hong-kong

Eryk Bagshaw, “Hong Kong's use of emergency law sparks warning from Payne”, Sydney Morning Herald, 6 October 2019: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/authorities-risk-inflaming-a-delicate-situation-in-hong-kong-20191006-p52y3g.html

Senator Marise Payne, “Statement on Hong Kong”, 14 November 2019: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/statement-hong-kong

Scott Morrison, “Radio interview with Neil Mitchell – 3AW”, 22 November 2019: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/radio-interview-neil-mitchell-3aw-2

Anthony Galloway, “Marise Payne welcomes Hong Kong elections results”, Sydney Morning Herald, 28 Novembet 2019: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/marise-payne-welcomes-hong-kong-elections-results-20191128-p53exv.html

Mick Herron, Slough House Series (Goodreads page): https://www.goodreads.com/series/101326-slough-house

China Neican newsletter: https://neican.substack.com/p/welcome-to-china-neican

Allan and Darren kick off this week’s episode by covering a bad week for the United States’ Indo-Pacific strategy at the ASEAN and East Asia Summit meetings in Bangkok. Meanwhile Australia’s Defence Minister Linda Reynolds delivered a constructive speech in Washington DC setting out a vision for precisely what the United States ought to be doing. The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) trade agreement appears set to become a reality, albeit without the participation of India. Staying with India, it is reported that former NSW Premier Barry O’Farrell will become Australia’s next High Commissioner.

In a speech in Sydney last week, Foreign Minister Marise Payne raised the plight of the Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang while discussing the threats posed by technology to human rights, and Beijing was not pleased; is any criticism of China’s human rights record compatible with a working bilateral relationship? Finally, the two catch up on the news from northern Syria, with Darren asking whether the Trump administration’s withdrawal of troops and abandonment of the Kurds will cause long term problems for America’s credibility.

We invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj 

We thank AIIA intern James Hayne for his help with research and audio editing, and XC Chong for research assistance. As always, we’re grateful to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.

Relevant links

Aaron Connelly on the ASEAN Meetings (twitter): https://twitter.com/ConnellyAL/status/1191639856268509185

Linda Reynolds, “Keynote Address, Hudson Institute, Washington DC”, 2 November 2019: https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/minister/lreynolds/transcripts/keynote-address-hudson-institute-washington-dc

Ben Doherty, “Australia to join major Asia-Pacific trade deal RCEP but India holds out”, The Guardian, 4 November 2019: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/05/australia-to-join-major-asia-pacific-trade-deal-rcep-but-india-holds-out 

Joe Aston, “Barry O’Farrell to be Australia’s next ambassador to India”, Australian Financial Review, 3 November 2019: www.afr.com/brand/rear-window/barry-o-farrell-to-be-australia-s-next-ambassador-to-india-20191103-p536yl?btis

Marise Payne, “Ensuring security, enabling prosperity”, Speech at the United States Studies Centre, 29 October 2019: https://foreignminister.gov.au/speeches/Pages/2019/mp_sp_191029.aspx

“Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Geng Shuang's Regular Press Conference on October 30, 2019”: https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/xwfw_665399/s2510_665401/2511_665403/t1712002.shtml

Allan Gyngell, “From the bookshelf: ‘Meeting Saddam’s men: looking for Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction’”, ASPI Strategist, 6 November 2019: https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/from-the-bookshelf-meeting-saddams-men-looking-for-iraqs-weapons-of-mass-destruction/

Adam Grant and Allison Sweet Grant, “Stop trying to raise successful kids”, The Atlantic, Decemer 2019: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/12/stop-trying-to-raise-successful-kids/600751/

The Ezra Klein Show, “The loneliness epidemic (Vivek Murthy)”, 10 October 2019: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/vox/the-ezra-klein-show/e/64496902