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Dr. Pedro Barata: Hello, and welcome to By the Book, a podcast from ASCO featuring compelling perspectives from authors and editors of the ASCO Educational Book. I'm Dr. Pedro Barata. I am a medical oncologist at University Hospital Seidman Cancer Center and an associate professor of medicine at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio. I am also the associate editor of the ASCO Educational Book.
We know that in recent years, the oncology community has increasingly prioritized the need to modernize clinical trial eligibility, reduce patient burden, and enhance diversity in trial participation. On that note, today we will be speaking about ways to enhance access to clinical trials with Dr. Ravin Garg. He is a hematologist oncologist at Maryland Oncology Hematology and also an assistant professor of oncology at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore. Dr. Garg is also the co-author of a fantastic paper in the ASCO Educational Book titled, "Practical Guide to Clinical Trial Accessibility: Making Trial Participation a Standard of Care."
Dr. Garg, welcome. Thanks for being here, and congrats on your paper.
Dr. Ravin Garg: Thank you for having me, Pedro. I am excited to be here.
Dr. Pedro Barata: [KI1] Your paper is a wonderful, multidisciplinary piece that actually features perspectives from the different stakeholders, right? The patient advocacy, industry, community practice, and academia about these challenges in making trials more available.
This podcast is a wonderful platform. It reaches out to a lot of folks within our community. So, I will start by asking you the obvious. Why do you think it is a must read for our community, for our listeners?
Dr. Ravin Garg: So Pedro, thanks again for inviting me. You do a great job with these podcasts.
So, I think first and foremost, oncologists right now are under a lot of stress, just in terms of clinical volume. There is concern for research money, and how we get the best care for our patients. So I think this article is very important because it helps bring together, as you had mentioned, the stakeholders throughout academic to community practice and everywhere in between, and try to find how, as a team with different oncologists who partake in different aspects of oncology, can come together to streamline the process to try to get our patients on trials, or certainly have them have availability of trials, just if they are interested in going on them. Being in practice, we have had several challenges that we can talk about throughout this podcast, but I think it is a very important paper because it recognizes that at the end of the day, it takes a team effort for all of us in academics, community, industry, and pharmaceuticals to really come together as a team to really help put forth the trials for our patients.
Dr. Pedro Barata: So, from the perspective of a community oncologist, how do you put together, or maybe you can describe some of the challenges that you see to increase trial participation in the community?
Dr. Ravin Garg: Yes, Pedro, that is a great question, and it is something that I keep on thinking about and trying to find ways to be better at it myself. But I will say some of the challenges as a community doctor that I have seen for myself and talking to other colleagues. Number one, I do think there is a lot of stress on doctors in the community in general, Pedro. Oftentimes we are tasked to see a wide smorgasbord of patients, so we may not have the luxury of being a specialist in any particular tumor subtype. Like oftentimes, we will have to see lung cancer, the next one will be breast cancer, the next one could be CML, the next one could be thrombocytopenia. And as you know better than I do, Pedro, the field in each one of these disciplines is changing so rapidly: molecular genomics, radioligand treatments, different imaging tests, MRD testing for some of our hematologic malignancies. And I think one challenge we have in community is just keeping up with the basics of Oncology 101. In the process of doing that, it can be very difficult to sometimes remember that we have very exciting trials available for our patients. So, I think a lot of it is the day in and day out of being an oncologist is so taxing at times that oftentimes a research trial is not the first thing in our head space when we see a patient.
I think number two, Pedro, at least in the community, and perhaps this is with academics too, is that we are bombarded, I would say, by a lot of messaging these days. We have in-baskets to go through, labs to go through, things of that nature. And in the process of a patient visit, seeing them, doing an exam, taking a history, trying to go over the NCCN guidelines on best practice for how to manage their care, at least for me at times, it is very hard to remember, "Hey, there might be a great trial available, whether within our network or maybe partnering with an academic center." So getting through a day can be fraught with a lot of peril and just difficulties, I would say.
And I would say number three, Pedro, at least as, you know, I am in a private practice where I do see a wide range of benign and malignant hematology and solid tumors, so I would not call myself a specialist. And I think the challenge with that, at least for trials, Pedro, is that when you are a specialist or perhaps you are focusing on a couple of disease subtypes, you become more of an authoritative voice in those types of tumors, and you might be more aware of the trials within your network or perhaps in proxy with an academic center that you can offer your patient. So I think when sometimes we spread ourselves too thin, it can be very hard to be a thought leader, if you will, in a particular subtype of a malignancy, let's say, and maybe not be aware of a trial that could be really well-suited for your patient.
In terms of ideas that myself and colleagues have had in terms of helping mitigate against some of these, I would say, setbacks or issues in the practice for trial enrollment, some of the things we have talked about, Pedro, is, number one, is we do partner with academic centers. So we live here in Maryland. We have several really fantastic academic centers. So, you know, oftentimes, not just within our practice of Maryland Oncology Hematology, we have a lot of great trials available here too, for certain, but in addition to that, we will often times work with doctors at Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, and Maryland if they have a compelling trial that we do not have within our network. It is really of the patient's interest, Pedro, to reach out to them in a collaborative manner to see if they have a trial that might be really compelling for your patient. So I do find myself collaborating a lot with colleagues in, like talented like yourself in academics. You know, I think you do a lot of GU malignancies. So as an example, like partnering with colleagues who are GU experts and say, "Hey, we have a patient with stage IV renal cell. These are the standard options I know, but are there any trials that you might have available?"
I think the other thing that has been very helpful for us is having navigators within research, Pedro. Like as an example, what has really helped the uptake of trial enrollment for our center in Annapolis is having a research navigator because often times what they can do is, a priori, Pedro, before you see the patient and you are kind of formulating a standard of care treatment plan perhaps, they might tug you on the shirt and say, "Hey, we have a great trial here through Sarah Cannon, or there might be something else out there." And being aware of that when you go into a patient's room really provides a nice arena, if you will, to go and say, "The standard of care is here, but hey, we have a trial option that might be well suited for you, maybe perhaps even better, that we can talk about, too." So having research support in the community is really a huge boon, I think, Pedro, for us to really increase our enrollment for patients onto trials.
Dr. Pedro Barata: Yes, I really love that, Ravin. So, let me switch gears a bit. I would love for you to talk a little bit about patient advocacy because they do play a huge role in cancer, and they address many barriers. How do you think we should leverage the patient advocacy groups to reduce patient burden and maybe have them really leverage patient advocacies to improve representation in clinical trials? What do we think we can do more?
Dr. Ravin Garg: Oh, Pedro, I think they are very critically important. As a clinical oncologist now, and I would say this is for anyone in the field of medicine, you are exactly right. I think patients are bombarded by information. There are a lot of things online, whether it be TikTok, Facebook, Google, Yahoo, and people really just have a lot of information given to them. And some of it is fact driven, and some of it is not, Pedro. And oftentimes, I do think there can be at times a mistrust with some medical personnel. I think we are in an era where we are seeing that to some degree with some attributes of medicine. And I think of it as an opportunity for education for the patient and for myself as a physician.
And I think patient advocates, to your point, which was well taken, serve as a bridge to both. And what I mean is that, you know, patient advocates are wonderful. They are, I think, outstanding communicators. They almost are a neutral party, Pedro, where many patients feel that they are an independent source of information that is free of bias, if you will. They are there to provide support, emotional support, scientific support for patients so they can make an informed decision.
So, in terms of our practice right now, patient advocates is something that we are evolving in that capacity, I would say, Pedro. I think now more than ever, having more people as bridges of communication with care providers along with patients is of critical importance. And I would venture a guess, and I think this has been published, where patient advocates really can help tremendously in familiarizing patients with trials and what they are all about and maybe clear up some misconceptions of what trials, what the mission of trials are. Because I do think some patients, at least I have had a few over the years, where when they hear the term trial, they almost think they are being experimented upon, when, in point of fact, they could really help advance their care. That messaging along the way for some can may be mixed up a little bit. And so I think patient advocates is a really great way to offer more information for patients with a source they find very independent and trustworthy, if you will. And it can really help expedite, and I think make a more fruitful conversation for care providers, whether academic or community, and they might be more open-minded in terms of enrolling onto a trial.
Dr. Pedro Barata: Wonderful. Yes, I agree. I agree with you completely.
So let's focus a little bit now on the folks designing the studies. We usually call them the sponsors. It might be an academic sponsorship, if you will, but we can also have pharma being the sponsor of a study. The angle from an academic design, it is not necessarily the same as what happens when we have pharma. And from that angle, how do you think a more inclusive research can be promoted?
Dr. Ravin Garg: Oftentimes with trials, I think keeping them simple, as simple as we can. And what I mean by that is, often times for trials, Pedro, even for care providers who are enrolling, it can be daunting when there are a lot of different things involved, particularly, let's say, for investigator sponsored, which are incredibly brilliant science, incredible, but it can be a little bit daunting for patients and even the referring physician to talk about getting translational specimens, imaging, traveling to certain centers to get scans and biopsies and even different diagnostic testing like PSMA testing for, you know, prostate cancer. And it can, I think, be very intimidating for patients in terms of what might be required of him or her to enter onto a trial. Like, "This is not what I signed up for. This is laborious. This is a full time job for me. Do I have to pay for parking to go to a city? Do I have to pay for these imaging tests? And do I have to stay in a place for my family to enroll onto a trial?" So I think keeping trials as simple as possible, but yet cull the data we need as investigators where we can really advance the care, hopefully get approval for a drug, but also learn more about the medication and how it works for our patients. So I think simplifying language for trial is very important. I know when I have gone over studies for patients, Pedro, if it is a voluminous amount of information, they can right away get very intimidated. "Like, oh my goodness, this is like a term paper for college again," you know? I am joking, but you know, keeping language simplified is very important, I think, number one.
And I feel that sometimes when they are asked to do a lot of different diagnostic testing, which is very important for translational work, I 100% understand, but I do think sometimes patients can get a little bit off put, if you will, and frustrated with the whole process of doing it.
The second thing for our patients, Pedro, that they have mentioned to us when we put them on trials, not just within our own site but elsewhere, is that it takes a lot of time in terms of collecting information, perhaps a washout period from their last standard of treatment prior to enrollment onto a study. Many patients, Pedro, as you know better than I do, are in maybe crisis in terms of their health and their cancer might be growing, promulgating out of control, and they worry about not being able to expeditiously start onto a treatment, onto a trial. So that can lead to a lot of frustration.
And one thing that you brought up, which was outstanding for me, is the enrollment criterion for some of our patients is felt to be somewhat strict. We have had some patients who may have had a remote history of a stage I malignancy that was by all accounts in remission, you know, let's say 4 or 5 years in the past, and the risk of recurrence at this point would be incredibly low, but they may not be able to enter onto a study because of some stringent criterion put forth. And that can be a little bit frustrating. In fact, I have had one or two patients who, as an example, with kidney issues, but the GFR was about 60, like right near a cutoff that oftentimes, as you know, we use where you can get into trial or not. And you know, if they are at 58, as an example, and otherwise they are a picture of health, a great candidate for a trial that will likely advance their care, and if the entry criterion is too stringent, that might be a lost opportunity for all parties involved, all stakeholders, if you will.
I do appreciate the criterion for entry onto studies cannot be too liberalized. You have to have a certain baseline, but there is a little bit of a gray area and tension, of sorts, if you will, where the patient has a comorbid illness that is a disqualifying offense, but in practicality, perhaps it shouldn't be, especially if they are motivated and there is an opportunity to really advance their care. We have run into, not often, but sometimes in the past, I should say, where patients have been very off put because we try to get them onto a study and there may have been a particular feature or attribute in their underlying care that they couldn't get onto it. So I think having a little bit more thoughtfulness, perhaps, in terms of entry criterion and practicality, if you will, I think would really help enrollment onto studies.
Dr. Pedro Barata: Really well said. Is there anything else that you would like to tell our listeners before we wrap up the podcast today?
Dr. Ravin Garg: I would say just macroscopically speaking, it is really an honor to be an oncologist. I think I speak for both of us. Anyone listening who is thinking about the field, it is tremendous. Just the research, the bravery of our patients, and the thoughtfulness of our scientists like Pedro and translationalists and clinical trialists is really awe inspiring. So I have really loved this field.
I will say from a trial perspective, we really need to enter as many patients as we can onto trials because the science is so brilliant now, the genomic underpinnings of the tumor, we are making great strides as a team of clinicians and scientists, translationalists. So the more that we can get people onto trials and get approved drugs, it is going to help them out in the end. So I think it is such an important time for all of us to come together as a community, find the best way to help our patients out. And clinical trials have to be at the forefront of how we can continue to advance care for our patients.
Dr. Pedro Barata: Yeah, no Ravin, I really agree with you. We really need to increase access to clinical studies, and actually your paper is a great step in that direction by raising awareness, bringing up solutions, and again, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration is really a multidisciplinary effort to accomplish that.
Thank you so much for sharing your fantastic thoughts and insights with us.
Dr. Ravin Garg: Thank you, Pedro. I am- you do a wonderful job with these podcasts. I am really honored to meet you and to be part of this.
Dr. Pedro Barata: And thank you to our listeners for your time today. I encourage you to check out Dr. Garg's article in the 2025 ASCO Educational Book. We will post a link to the paper in our show notes. And please join us again next month on By the Book for more insights on key advances and innovations that are shaping modern oncology. Thank you for your attention.
Disclaimer:
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.
Speakers' Bureau: AstraZeneca, Merck, Caris Life Sciences, Bayer, Pfizer/Astellas
Research Funding (Inst.): Exelixis, Blue Earth, AVEO, Pfizer, Merck
Dr. Ravin Garg:
Patents, Royalties, Other Intellectual Property: Creator, editor, and writer of hemeoncquestions.com
Key Updates in Testicular Cancer: Optimizing Survivorship and Survival
lundi 10 novembre 2025 • Durée 21:44
Dr. Pedro Barata and Dr. Aditya Bagrodia discuss the evolving landscape of testicular cancer survivorship, the impact of treatment-related complications, and management strategies to optimize long-term outcomes and quality of life.
TRANSCRIPT:
Dr. Pedro Barata: Hello and welcome to By the Book, a podcast series from ASCO that features engaging conversations between editors and authors of the ASCO Educational Book. I'm Dr. Pedro Barata. I'm a medical oncologist at University Hospitals Seidman Cancer Center and associate professor of medicine at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio. I'm also an associate editor of the ASCO Educational Book.
We all know that testicular cancer is a rare but highly curable malignancy that mainly affects young men. Multimodal advances in therapy have resulted in excellent cancer specific survival, but testicular cancer survivors face significant long term treatment related toxicities which affect their quality of life and require surveillance and management. With that, I'm very happy today to be joined by Dr. Aditya Bagrodia, a urologic oncologist, professor, and the GU Disease Team lead at UC San Diego[KI1] Health, and also the lead author of the recently published paper in the ASCO Educational Book titled, "Key Updates in Testicular Cancer: Optimizing Survivorship and Survival." And he's also the host of the world-renowned BackTable Urology Podcast.
Dr. Bagrodia, I'm so happy that you're joining us today. Welcome.
Dr. Aditya Bagrodia: Thanks, Pedro. Absolutely a pleasure to be here. Really appreciate the opportunity.
Dr. Pedro Barata: Absolutely.
So, just to say that our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode.
Cancer Topics - Oncology Practice In Rural Settings Part 2
mercredi 13 septembre 2023 • Durée 22:04
People who live in major cities in the US and abroad tend to benefit from better cancer care due to having access to more doctors, facilities and equipment. In contrast, those who live in rural areas face many challenges accessing consistent and quality care.
In Part Two of this ASCO Education Podcast Dr. Jack Hensold, a hematologist/oncologist in Bozeman, Montana and Chair of the ASCO Rural Cancer Care Task Force, Dr. Chris Prakash, Medical Oncologist in Paris, Texas and Medical Director of Texas Oncology and President of the Texas Society of Clinical Oncology, and Professor Sabe Sabesan, a Medical Oncologist in Townsville, Australia and the President-Elect of the Clinical Oncology Society of Australia will examine the realities of practicing oncology in rural areas. They will discuss the need for rural populations to access clinical trials (1:42), using telemedicine for chemotherapy and clinical trials (3:00) and using political advocacy to improve cancer care in rural areas (13:00). Speaker Disclosures Sabe Sabesan: Speakers Bureau - Merck Sucharu Prakash: Speakers Bureau - Myriad Genetics Jack Hensold: Consulting or Advisory Role Company - Vibliome Therapeutics
If you liked this episode, please follow the show. To explore other educational content, including courses, visit education.asco.org. Contact us at education@asco.org.
TRANSCRIPT
Disclosures for this podcast are listed on the podcast page.
Dr. Jack Hensold: Hello and welcome to this two-part episode of the ASCO Education podcast. Today we will explore some real-time and real-world issues that oncologists face while practicing in rural areas in the US and abroad. I'm Dr. Jack Hensold, a Methodologist Oncologist in Bozeman, Montana, and chair of the ASCO Rural Cancer Care Task Force. I also serve as Medical Director of Regional Outreach at Bozeman Health. Joining me is Dr. Chris Prakash, an Oncologist and Medical Director of Texas Oncology and the President of the Texas Society of Clinical Oncology. Chris is also the Director of Quality Services for the statewide group and leads Texas Oncologist Precision Medicine Initiative.
Cancer Topics - Recent Approvals: Trastuzumab and Hyaluronidase-oysk
mercredi 21 août 2019 • Durée 11:56
ASCO Voices 2019: Surgery Is Never Elegant When Women Are in the Operating Room
Monica Morrow, MD, FASCO Surgery Is Never Elegant When Women Are in the Operating Room
ASCO Guidelines: Use of Biomarkers to Guide Decisions on Adjuvant Therapy for Early-Stage Invasive Breast Cancer Guideline Update
mercredi 7 août 2019 • Durée 09:59
An interview with Dr. Fabrice Andre from Institute Gustave Roussy, Paris Sud University, in Paris, France on "Use of Biomarkers to Guide Decisions on Adjuvant Systemic Therapy for Early-Stage Invasive Breast Cancer: ASCO Clinical Practice Guideline Update: Integration of Results from TAILORx." This update provides updated recommendations on chemoendocrine therapy for patients who present with a hormone receptor positive, HER2 not overexpressed, axillary node negative early breast cancer.
TRANSCRIPT
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. Hello, and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines Podcast Series. My name is Shannon McKernin, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Fabrice André from the Institute Gustave Roussy in Paris, France, lead author on "Use of Biomarkers to Guide Decisions on Adjuvant Systemic Therapy for Early Stage Invasive Breast Cancer. ASCO Clinical Practice Guideline Update: Integration of Results from TAILORx." Thank you for being here today, Dr. André. Thank you. So based on the title of this guideline, we know that this update was prompted by the results of the TAILORx trial. So can you tell us more about that trial and what its results were? Yes. So the TAILORx trial was a trial that randomized two treatment modalities, endocrine therapy versus chemotherapy endocrine therapy in patients who presented what we call an intermediate recurrence cohort. So before moving to the results, maybe we can discuss a little bit the background. What we knew from the past is the fact that patients who present a recurrence score below 11 should be treated with endocrine therapy alone, because they have the good outcomes. And patients who present recurrence score that is high, 31 but also can be more on 25, should receive chemotherapy. And we are talking about patients with hormone-receptor receptor positive, HER2-negative early breast cancer without lymph node involvement. And this is extremely important. So to summarize, it's a clinical trial that includes patients with hormone-receptor positive HER2-negative lymph node negative in early breast cancer, who present with recurrence score between 11 and 25. And the question is whether we can avoid adjuvant chemotherapy in these patients who present this intermediate score. So this is the general design and the question. In terms of research, what we have learned. We have learned that for patients above 50 years old, there is no difference between endocrine therapy and chemotherapy followed by endocrine therapy. So it means that this patient or these patients, we would consider endocrine therapy alone. Then, for patients below 50 years old, there was some difference. And I think we go further into the detail. There was some difference favoring the use of chemotherapy in the group of patients who presented with recurrence score from 16 to 25. And so what changes were made to the recommendations in this update of the guideline? So first, what were [INAUDIBLE] the previous guidelines. The previous guidelines were telling the clinician which genetic tests they could use in patients with hormone-receptor positive, HER2-negative early breast cancer. Now, the big change is that we are making guideline to explain how to use the test. And what is new is that we have made three important decisions. So first, for the patient is at the age above 50, now it is recommended clinician may recommend endocrine therapy alone for women older than 50 who present a recurrence score below 26. Before, the recommendation to use endocrine therapy alone was for patient's who present with low recurrence score. So it means now we have broadened-- we have increased the number of patients who could receive endocrine therapy alone and not receive chemotherapy. Then, for patients who present a recurrence score between 16 to 25 and who are below 50 years old, the clinician may offer chemotherapy followed by endocrine therapy, meaning that we are moving from [INAUDIBLE]. This intermediate score between 11 to 25 was what we call a [INAUDIBLE]. There was no recommendation on how to use the recurrence score. So right now, the update from the ASCO guideline is to provide recommendation on which treatment to administer in case a patient presents with intermediate recurrence score, and there are two different situations above 50 years old and below 50 years old. So why are these changes so important and how will they affect practice? So they will affect practice because for many reasons, I will say. In the US, they would affect practice because they increase the number of patients who will not receive adjuvant chemotherapy, because right now, we have an answer from randomized trial that we can avoid chemotherapy in women above 50 and from 11 to 25 recurrence score. So the impact in terms of public health would be that we could have a decrease in the use of chemotherapy or at least a better precision about who should receive adjuvant chemotherapy. Globally, this trial is going to provide an incentive and increase the level of evidence supporting the use of genetic tests. So it's important to remember that in a large number of countries, genetic tests are not reimbursed. But now, because lack of evidence, and here we have a randomized trial showing a level 1 evidence supporting the use of genetic tests. So we have two direct impacts of this trial. The first, inside US, where [INAUDIBLE] colleagues already use genetic tests, it provides better precision on who will receive adjuvant chemotherapy. And it's going to broaden the number of patients who will not receive. And globally, it's prospective randomized trial that we hope is going to incite payers to reimburse the genetic test in patients with early breast cancer. And so what does this all mean for patients with early stage invasive breast cancer? And what should they talk to their doctors about? So for patients with early breast cancer, so what are the messages for the patient? I think for the patient, the key message is that we are moving to precision medicine. We need a medicine that is extremely precise in terms of who should receive which treatments. And now, thanks to this trial, we are going to decrease the number of patients who receive chemotherapy, but also for the ones who will receive adjuvant chemotherapy, the value of the treatment, we need what the treatment provides to the patient is going to be very, very high. So what is important for patients is to understand that because of this trial, when we give them chemotherapy, we will know that the value of this treatment and the expected benefit is going to be higher than what we used to do in the past. So it's really fast forward and more precise medicine that consists in using molecular tests in order to provide or administer treatment with very high value. Great. Thank you Dr. André for your overview of this guideline update. This has been very informative. It's really good to hear that the expert panel has incorporated the latest research into the guideline and has carefully considered the implications for the patients. So thank you for coming on the podcast to discuss the "Use of Biomarkers to Guide Decisions on Adjuvant Systemic Therapy for Early-Stage Invasive Breast Cancer: ASCO Clinical Practice Guideline Update: Integration of Results from TAILORx" Thank you. What people don't realize is we did hard work that ASCO doing with all these guidelines, and people are very committed, and they are [INAUDIBLE]. I mean, it's very reassuring for ASCO member to know that there are highly professional people who provide guidelines and it is also reassuring for the patients, for everyone. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning into the ASCO Guidelines Podcast Series. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/breast-cancer-guidelines. And if you've enjoyed what you've heard today, please rate and review the podcast, and refer the show to a colleague.
ASCO Guidelines: HER2 Testing and Clinical Decision Making in Gastroesophageal Adenocarcinoma
Épisode 22
jeudi 1 août 2019 • Durée 05:26
Dr. Timothy Price, medical oncologist in Adelaide, Australia, presents the ASCO Guideline on HER2 Testing and Clinical Decision Making in Gastroesophageal Adenocarcinoma, originally published in the Journal of Clinical Oncology in February 2017.
ASCO Guidelines: Radiation Therapy for Glioblastoma
Épisode 25
jeudi 1 août 2019 • Durée 04:28
Dr. Steve Braunstein, radiation oncologist and assistant professor at the UCSF Medical Center at Mission Bay, presents the ASCO Guideline on Radiation Therapy for Glioblastoma, originally published in the Journal of Clinical Oncology in November 2016.
ASCO Guidelines: Role of Treatment Deintensification in the Management of p16+ Oropharyngeal Cancer PCO
mercredi 31 juillet 2019 • Durée 14:42
TRANSCRIPT
An interview with Dr. David Adelstein of the Cleveland Clinic on the ASCO PCO which provides statements on the role of treatment deintensification in the management of p16+ oropharyngeal cancer. Read the full PCO at www.asco.org/head-neck-cancer-guidelines
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care, and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.
Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines Podcast series. My name is Shannon McKernin. And today I'm interviewing Dr. David Adelstein from the Cleveland Clinic Taussig Cancer Institute. Lead author on "Role of Treatment Deintensification in the Management of p16 Positive Oropharyngeal Cancer: ASCO Provisional Clinical Opinion."
Thank you for being here today, Dr. Adelstein.
Thank you, Shannon. Before we get started, I'd like to first note the contributions of my panel co-chair, Drew Ridge, and those of all of the other panel members. And I'd like to extend a special thank you to ASCO for their support in allowing us to put this together and specifically Nofisat Ismaila who did a tremendous amount of work in allowing us to complete this provisional clinical opinion.
First, can you give us an overview of the clinical issue for this PCO? Sure. So this really came out of the implications of human papillomavirus mediated oropharynx cancer. I think as most of the listeners know, over the last several decades we've recognized the fact that oropharynx cancer has a second ideology, that not all of it is caused by tobacco use, but that the human papillomavirus is now the major ideologic factor in North American and northern Europe. The importance of this is that the human papillomavirus-induced oropharynx cancer is a different disease. It has a number of different characteristics from the kinds of head and neck cancer we've seen in the past. It's a disease that tends to occur in younger patients, patients who are otherwise generally more healthy. It is unassociated with smoking, although it can occur in smokers. But it's much more frequent in nonsmokers.
ASCO Guidelines: Duration of Oxaliplatin-Containing Adjuvant Therapy for Stage III Colon Cancer Guideline
mercredi 24 juillet 2019 • Durée 13:20
TRANSCRIPT
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.
Hello, and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines Podcast series. My name is Shannon McKernin. And today, I'm interviewing Dr. Nancy Baxter from St. Michael's Hospital in Toronto, senior author on "Duration of Oxaliplatin-Containing Adjuvant Therapy for Stage III Colon Cancer: ASCO Clinical Practice Guideline." Thank you for being here today, Dr. Baxter.
Thanks very much, Shannon, for speaking with me. I'm happy to share our work developing this guideline.
So first, can you give us a general overview of what this guideline covers and the studies which provide the evidence?
Absolutely. So use of adjuvant therapy for patients with stage III colon cancer is common, and it's effective. We know that these patients are at substantial risk of recurrence of their disease and that adjuvant therapy can reduce that risk. But we also know that comes with a cost. The most effective adjuvant therapy is FOLFOX or oxaliplatin-containing chemotherapy regimens. And we know that a really substantial number of people will end up with neurotoxicity, with peripheral sensory neurotoxicity, that can be long lasting and certainly affects their quality of life. So the whole question was whether the duration of oxaliplatin-containing chemotherapeutic regimens could be shortened when they're used for adjuvant therapy, so if we could give three months instead of six months. Because we know that if we give three months of therapy, the risk of neurotoxicity is much lower. So if we had the same effectiveness with the shorter duration, then we could spare patients the negative consequences of the agent given for a longer period of time. So in developing these guidelines, we looked at the results of international group of trials, the six trials from the IDEA collaboration. So these were six randomized trials in various jurisdictions that tried to look at this question, so three months of an oxaliplatin-based chemotherapeutic regimen for adjuvant therapy for stage III cancer versus six months duration of therapy. And so there was a planned analysis to bring all of these data together to develop the evidence base to make this recommendation. So our guideline and our systematic review basically identified this is the key piece of literature to base our recommendations and guidelines on. That's essentially the main study, so the meta-analysis of these six randomized controlled trials that formed the basis of the IDEA collaboration. So the IDEA collaboration studies-- there were six individual randomized trials that formed part of the IDEA collaboration. And they were conducted in Italy, Greece, Japan, North America, through CALGB/SWOG, the UK, Denmark, Spain, Australia, Sweden, and New Zealand, as well as France. So data came from, really, around the world. The median age of people in the studies was 64 years of age. And these people had a really good performance status, so almost all of these patients had an ECOG performance status of 0 or 1. So they were healthy patients that were in the study. And so some patients received CAPOX, and some received FOLFOX. That wasn't part of the randomization scheme. Other than the CALGB/SWOG study, this was up to the discretion of the investigator or patient. In the SWOG/CALGB study, only FOLFOX was given. And the authors planned a prespecified subgroup analysis to look at differences between CAPOX and FOLFOX. There was also a prespecified analysis to look at differences based on stage. What they found when they looked at the results was that, overall, the difference between groups in terms of the three months versus six months was that the hazard ratio between these two was 1.07, meaning a small difference between the groups in terms of recurrence or death between three months and six months overall. But because the prespecified confidence interval, noninferiority interval, for the difference in outcome was 1.12, the 95% confidence interval for the hazard ratio was above this. So it was 1.15, indicating that this prespecified noninferiority margin was exceeded. And so the study did not prove noninferiority of the three-month regimen. So we're left with an inconclusive result. So that's why our guidelines don't have a strong recommendation for the three months, because we can't rule out a small but potentially important difference between the two groups in terms of recurrence or death. Now, interestingly, when they looked at the prespecified subgroup analysis, which was looking at CAPOX versus FOLFOX, a difference was found. So they actually found that for FOLFOX chemotherapy, three months of therapy was inferior to six months of therapy, while for CAPOX, actually, three months and six months were the same. So it met the criteria of noninferiority. So these are kind of two different conclusions based on which type of chemotherapy was used. This was surprising to the investigators and was not expected. And certainly, it was not consistent with the randomized trials that we have comparing these regimens. So we therefore did not make any conclusions in our recommendations about CAPOX versus FOLFOX. But this is certainly something that requires further investigation in the future. In terms of stage, we did not find that there was an interaction between T stage or end stage when you looked at the differences between the three and the six month. And that was the prespecified analysis. But in non-prespecified analysis, which was the higher risk versus lower risk categories, you did find this difference where the patients with high-risk disease had inferior disease-free survival with three months versus six months of therapy, while those at low risk of disease, it seemed quite safe to give three months versus six months. So that's a long story. But essentially, because the high risk versus low risk analysis was not prespecified, there's a limitation to how strong our recommendations can be to have three months of therapy. However, given that the hazard ratio associated with three months versus six months of therapy for this lower risk group was only 1.01, indicating they were the same, and the risk of neuropathy was substantially higher with six months, this has led to us making recommendations that the three months of therapy is adequate for patients with low-risk disease after discussion with patients about the possible pros and cons.
Let's get things started. I'm really excited to talk about this. I'm biased, I do treat testicular cancer among other GU malignancies and so it's a really, really important topic that we face every day, right? Fortunately, for most of these patients, we're able to cure them. But it always comes up the question, "What now? You know, scans, management, cardio oncology, what survivorship programs we have in place? Are we addressing the different survivorship piece, psychology, fertility, et cetera?" So, we'll try to capture all of that today.
Aditya, congrats again, you did a fantastic job putting together the insights and thoughts and what we know today about this important topic. And so, let's get focused specifically about what happens when patients get cured. So, many of us, in many centers, were fortunate enough to have these survivorship programs together, but I find that sometimes from talking to colleagues, they're not exactly the same thing and they don't mean the same thing to different people, to different institutions, right?
So, first things first. What do you tell a patient perhaps when they ask you, "What can happen to me now that I'm done with treatment for testicular cancer?" Whether it's chemotherapy or just surgery or even radiation therapy? "So, what about the long term? What should I expect, Doctor, that might happen to me in the long run?"
Dr. Aditya Bagrodia: Totally. I mean, I think that question's really front and center, Pedro, and really appreciate you all highlighting this topic. It was an absolute honor to work with true thought leaders and the survivorship bit of it is front and center, in my opinion.
It's really the focus, you know, we, generally speaking should be able to cure these young men, but it's the 10, 15, 20 years down the way that they're going to largely contend with. The conversation really begins at diagnosis, pre-education. Fortunately, the bulk of patients that present are those with stage one disease, and even very basic things like before orchiectomy, talking about a prosthetic; we know that that can impact body image and self esteem, whether or not they decide to receive it or not. Actually, just being offered a prosthetic is important and this is something, you know, for any urologist, it's kind of critical. To discussing fertility elements to this, taking your time to examine the contralateral testicle, ask about fertility problems, issues, concerns, offer sperm banking, even in the context of a completely normal contralateral testicle, I think these things are quite important.
So if it's somebody with stage one disease, you know, without going too far down discussing adjuvant therapy and so forth, I will start the conversation with, "You know, the testes do largely two things. They make testosterone and they make sperm." By and large, patients are going to be able to have acceptable levels of testosterone, adequate sperm parameters to maintain kind of a normal gonadal state and to naturally conceive, should that be something they're interested in. However, there's still going to be, depending on what resource you look at, somewhere in the order of 10-30% that are going to have issues.
Where I think for the stage one patients, it's really incumbent upon us is actually to not wait for them to discuss their concerns, particularly with testosterone, which many times can be a little bit vague, but to proactively ask about it every time. Libido, erectile quality, muscle mass maintenance, energy, fatigue. All of these are kind of associated symptoms of hypogonadism. But for a lot of kids 18-20 years old, it's going to be something insidious that they don't think about. So, for the stage one patients, it absolutely starts with gonadal function.
If they are stage two getting surgery, I think the counseling really needs to center around a possibility for ejaculatory dysfunction. Now, for a chemotherapy-naive, nerve-sparing RPLND, generally these days we should be able to preserve ejaculatory function at high volume centers, but you still want to bring that up and again kind of touch base on thinking about sperm banking and so forth before the operation, scars, those are things I think worth talking about, small risk of ascites.
Then, I think the intensity of potential long term adverse effects really ramps up when we're talking about systemic therapy, chemotherapy. And then there's of course some radiation therapy specific elements that come up. So, for the chemotherapy bits of it, I really think this is going to be something that can be a complete multi-system affected intervention. So, anxiety, depression, our group has actually shown using some population resources that even suicidality can be increased among patients that have been treated for germ cell tumor.
You know, really from the top down, tinnitus, hearing changes, those are things that we need to ask about at every appointment. Neuropathy, sexual health, that we kind of talked about, including ED (erectile dysfunction), vertigo, dizziness, Raynaud's phenomenon, these are kind of more the symptoms that I think we need to inquire about every time. And what we do here and I think at a lot of survivorship programs is use kind of a battery of validated instruments, germ cell tumor specific, platinum treated patient specific. So we use a combination of EORTC questions and PROMIS questions, which actually serves as like a review of systems for the patient, also as a research element. We review that and then depending on what might be going on, we can dig into that further, get them over to colleagues in audiology or psychology, et cetera.
And then of course, screening for the hypertension, hyperlipidemia, metabolic syndrome with basically you or myself or somebody kind of like us serving, many times it's the role of the PCP, just making sure we're checking out, you know, CBC, CMP, et cetera, lipid parameters to screen for those kind of cardiac associated issues along with secondary malignancies.
Dr. Pedro Barata: So that's super comprehensive and thorough. Thank you so much. Actually, I love how you break it down in a simple way. Two functions of the testes, produce testosterone and then, you know, the problem related to that is the hypogonadism, and then the second, as you mentioned, produce sperm and of course related to the fertility issues with that.
So, let's start with the first one that you mentioned. So, you do cite that in your paper, around 5-10% of men end up getting, developing hypogonadism, maybe clinical when they present with symptoms, maybe subclinical. So, I'm wondering, for our audience, what kind of recommendations we would give for addressing that or kind of thinking of that? How often are you ordering those tests? And then, when you're thinking about testosterone replacement therapy, is that something you do immediately or are there any guidelines into context that? How do you approach that?
Dr. Aditya Bagrodia: So, just a bit more on digging into it even in terms of the questions to ask, you know, "Do you have any decrease in sexual drive? Any erectile dysfunction? Are your morning erections still taking place? Has the ejaculate volume changed? Physically, muscle mass, strength? Have you been putting on weight? Have you noticed increase in body fat?" And sometimes this is complicated because there's some anxiety that comes along with a cancer diagnosis when you're 20, 30 years old, multifactorial, hair loss, hot flashes, irritability. Sometimes they'll, you know, literally they'll say, "You know, my significant other or partners noticed that I'm really just a little bit labile."
So I think, you know, there's the symptoms and then checking, usually kind of a gonadal panel, FSH, LH, free and total testosterone, sex hormone binding globulin, that's going to be typically pretty comprehensive. So if you've got symptoms plus some laboratory work, and ideally that pre-orchiectomy testosterone gives you some delta. If they started out at an 800, 900, now they're 400, that might be a big change for them.
And then, when you talk about TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy) recommendations, you know, Pedro, yourself, myself, we're kind of lucky to be at academic centers and we've got men's health colleagues that are ultra experts, but at a high level, I would say that a lot of the TRT options center around fertility goals. Exogenous testosterone treats the low T, but it does suppress gonadal function, including spermatogenesis.
So if that's not a priority, they can just get TRT. It should be done under the care of a urologist, a men's health, an endocrinologist, where we're checking liver chemistries and CBCs and a PSA and so forth. If they're interested in fertility preservation, then I would say engaging an endocrinologist, men's health expert is important. There's medications even like hCG, Clomid, which works centrally and stimulate the gonadal access. Niche scenarios where they might want standard TRT now, and then down the way, 5, 7 years, they're thinking about coming off of that for fertility purposes, I think that's really where you want to have an expert involved because there's quite a bit of nuance there in recovery of actual spermatogenesis and so forth.
To kind of summarize, you got to ask about it. Checking it is, is not overly complicated. We do a baseline pre-orchiectomy and at least once annually, you can tag it in with the tumor markers, so it's not an extra blood draw. And if they have symptoms of course, kind of developed, then we'll move that up in the evaluation.
Dr. Pedro Barata: Got it. And you also touch base on the fertility angle, which is truly important. And I'm just curious, you know, a lot of times many of us might see one, two patients a year, right, and we forget these protocols and what we've got to do about that.
And so I'm interested to hear your thoughts about when you think about fertility, and how proactive you get. In other words, who do you refer for the fertility clinic, for a fertility preservation program? You know, do all cases despite getting through orchiectomy or just the cases that you're going to, you know you're going to seek chemotherapy at some point? What kind of selection or it depends on the chemo, like how do you do that assessment about the referral for preservation program that you might have available at UCSD?
Dr. Aditya Bagrodia: Yeah, I mean I feel really fortunate to sit on the NCCN Testis Cancer Guidelines. It's in there that fertility counseling should be discussed prior to orchiectomy. So 100% bring it up. If there are risk factors, undescended testicles, previous history of fertility concerns, atrophic contralateral testicle, anything on the ultrasound like microlithiasis in the contralateral testicle, you kind of wanna get it there. And then again, there's kind of niche scenarios where you're really worried, maybe get a semen analysis and it doesn't look that good, arrange for the time of orchiectomy to have onco-testicular sperm extraction from the, quote unquote, "normal" testis parenchyma. You know, I think you have to be kind of prepared to go that route and really make sure you're doing this completely comprehensively.
So pre-orchiectomy all patients. Don't really push for it too hard if they've got a contralateral testicle, if they've had no issues having children. There's some cost associated with this, sperm banking still isn't kind of covered even in the context of men with cancer. If they've got risk factors, absolutely pre-orchiectomy.
Pre-RPLND, even though the rates of ejaculatory dysfunction at a high-volume center should be low single digits, I'll still offer it. That'd be a real catastrophe if they were in that small proportion of patients and now they're going to be reliant on things like intrauterine insemination, where it becomes quite expensive.
Pre-chemo, everybody. That's basically a standard these days where it should be discussed and it's kind of amazing currently, even if you don't have an accessible men's health fertility clinic, there are actually companies, I have no vested interest, Fellow is one such company where you can actually create an account, receive a FedEx semen analysis and cryopreservation kit, send it back in, and all CLIA certified, it's based out of California. The gentleman that runs it, is a urologist and very, very bright guy who's done a lot of great stuff for testis cancer. So, even for patients that are kind of in extremis at the hospital that kind of need to get going like yesterday, we still discuss it. We've got some mechanisms in place to either have them take a semen analysis over to our Men's Health clinic or send it off to Fellow, which I think is pretty cool and that even extends to some of our younger adolescent patients where going to a clinic and providing a sample might be tricky.
So, I think bringing it up every stage, anytime there's an intervention that might be offered, orchiectomy, chemo, surgery, radiation, it's kind of incumbent on us to discuss it.
Dr. Pedro Barata: Gotcha. That's super helpful. And you also touch base on another angle, which is the psychosocial angle around this. You mentioned suicidal rates, you mentioned anxiety, perhaps depression in some cases as well as chronic fatigue, not necessarily just because of the low testosterone that you can get, but also from a psychological perspective. I'm curious, what do the recommendations look like for that? Do these patients need to see a social worker or a psychologist, or do they need to answer a screening test every time they come to see us and then based on that, we kind of escalate, take the next steps according to that? Do they see a psychologist perhaps every so often? How should that be managed and addressed?
Dr. Aditya Bagrodia: It's an excellent question and again, these can be rather insidious symptoms where if you don't really dig in and inquire, they can be glossed over. I mean, how easy to say, "Your markers look okay, your scans look okay. See you in six months," and keep it kind of brief. First off, I think bringing it up proactively and normalizing it, that, "This may be something that you experience. Many people do, you're not alone, there's nothing kind of wrong with you."
I also think that this is an area where support groups can be incredibly useful. We host the Testicular Cancer Awareness Foundation support group here. They'll talk about chemo brain or just like a little bit of an adjustment disorder after their diagnosis. Support groups, I think are critical. As I mentioned, we have a survivorship program that's led by a combination of our med oncs, myself on the uro-onc side, as well as APPs, where we are systematically asking about essentially the whole litany of issues that may arise, including psychosocial, anxiety, depression, suicidality. And we've got a nice kind of fast path into our cancer center support services for these young men to meet with a psychologist. If that isn't going to be sufficient, they can actually see a psychiatrist to discuss medications and so forth.
I do think that we've got to screen for these because, as anticipated from diagnosis, those first 2 years, we see a rise. But even 10, 15 years out, we note, compared to controls, that there is an increased level of anxiety, depression, suicidality that might not just take place at that initial acute period of diagnosis and treatment.
Dr. Pedro Barata: Really well said. Super important.
So I guess if I were to put all these together, with these really amazing advances in technology, we all know AI, some of us might be more or less aware of biomarkers coming up, including microRNA for example, and others, like as I think of all these potential long term complications for these patients, look at the future, I guess, can we use this as a way to deescalate treatment where it's not really necessary, as a way to actually prevent some of these complications? Like, how do we see where we're heading? As we manage testicular cancer, let's say, within the next 5 or 10 years, do you think there's something coming up that's going to be different from what we're doing things today?
Dr. Aditya Bagrodia: Totally. I mean, I think it's as exciting as a time as there's ever been, you know, maybe notwithstanding circa 1970s when platinum was discovered. So microRNAs, which you mentioned, you know, there's a new candidate biomarker, microRNA-371. We are super excited here at UCSD. We actually have it CLIA-certified available in our lab and are ordering these tests for patients kind of in their acute stage, you know, stage one and surveillance, stage two, post-RPLND, receiving chemotherapy. And essentially this is a universal germ cell tumor specific biomarker, except for teratoma, suffice it to say 90% sensitive and specific. And I think it's going to change the way that we diagnose and manage patients. You know, pre-orchiectomy, that's pretty straightforward. Post-orchiectomy, maybe we can really decrease the number of CT scans that are done. Maybe we can identify those patients that basically have occult disease where we can intervene early, either with RPLND or single cycle chemo. Post-RPLND, identify the patients who are at higher risk of relapse that may benefit from some adjuvant therapy. In the advanced setting, look at marker decline for patients in addition to standard tumor markers. Can we modulate their systemic therapy?
So, the international interest is largely on modifying things. There's really cool clinical trials that we have for stage one patients, that treatment would be prescribed based on a post-orchiectomy microRNA. I think the microRNAs are really exciting. Teratoma remains an outstanding question. I think this is where maybe ctDNA, perhaps some radiomics and advanced imaging processing and incorporating AI may allow us to safely avoid a lot of these post-chemo RPLNDs. And then identification using SNPs and so forth of who might be most susceptible to some of the cardiac toxicity, autotoxicity and personalizing things in that way as well.
Dr. Pedro Barata: Super exciting, right, what's about to come? And I agree with you, I think it's going to change dramatically how we manage this disease.
This has been a pleasure sitting down with you. I guess before letting you go, anything else you'd like to add before we wrap it up?
Dr. Aditya Bagrodia: Yeah, first off, again, just want to thank you and ASCO for the opportunity. And it's easy enough to, I think, approach a patient with the testicular germ cell tumor as, "This is an easy case. We're just going to do whatever we've done. Go to the guidelines that says do X, Y, or Z." But there's so much more nuance to it than that. Getting it done perfectly, I think, is mandatory. Whatever we do is an impact on them for the next 50, 60, 70 years of their life. And I found the germ cell tumor community, people are really passionate about it. If you're ever uncertain, there's experts throughout the country and internationally. Ask somebody before you do something that you can't undo. I think we owe it to them to get it perfect so that we can really maximize the survivorship and the survival like we've been talking about.
Dr. Pedro Barata: Aditya, thanks for sharing your fantastic insights with us on this podcast.
Dr. Aditya Bagrodia: All right, Pedro. Fantastic. Appreciate the opportunity.
Dr. Pedro Barata: And also, thank you to our listeners for your time today. I actually encourage you to check out Dr. Bagrodia's article in the 2025 ASCO Educational Book. We'll post a link to the paper in the show notes. Remember, it's free access online, and you can actually download it as well as a PDF. You can also find on the website a wealth of other great papers from the ASCO Educational Book on key advances and novel approaches that are shaping modern oncology.
So with that, thank you everyone. Thank you, Aditya, one more time, for joining us. Thank you, have a good day.
Disclaimer:
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.
Speakers' Bureau: AstraZeneca, Merck, Caris Life Sciences, Bayer, Pfizer/Astellas
Research Funding (Inst.): Exelixis, Blue Earth, AVEO, Pfizer, Merck
Dr. Aditya Bagrodia:
Consulting or Advisory Role: Veracyte, Ferring
Also joining me is Professor Sabe Sabesan, a Medical Oncologist in Regional, Australia. He's the President-elect of the Clinical Oncology Society of Australia and the Clinical Director of the Australian Teledyne Health Program, led by the Queensland State Department of Health. Professor Sabazin is an internationally recognized expert in the area of teleoncology and has developed and evaluated various oncology models to deliver cancer care closer to home.
In part one, our guests were explaining what got them into rural practice and the issues they face in patient transportation, telehealth, getting access to the latest information on treatments, and connecting with other colleagues to get insight on patient cases. Here, I ask Dr. Prakash about one issue that does not get talked about very often.
Dr. Chris Prakash: I think we don't talk enough about access to clinical trials for rural populations. And that's a hard problem. These are regulated. But I wonder about real-world trials. Those are a little easier to do. Maybe we can put more patients on those, the hub-and-spoke model, that would be helpful in that. And I know people are trying and many societies are trying to enroll more rural populations in trials, but it continues to be a challenge.
Dr. Jack Hensold: Correct. And actually, ASCO has a workforce right now that's trying to address this problem. That includes patient representatives, as well as, I think, people from National Cancer Institute and people from the pharmaceutical industry who've been on that task force and really is trying to address what are the barriers that keep us from getting trials out to our patients in rural areas because it is identified as a real problem. I think, as we all know, excellent cancer care requires access to clinical trials, and limited access means quality of care is going to be less.
Dr. Sabesan, you've been working on improving chemotherapy access in rural parts of Australia. Do you think your programs like tele-chemotherapy could be implemented in other regions and even in this country, the United States, and can they be applied to clinical trials and teletrials essentially?
Dr. Sabe Sabesan: This is where I get really excited because the use of telemedicine, beyond providing consultations and then using it for chemotherapy and clinical trials, actually that's what keeps me up in the morning and keeps me awake at night as well. What I see these things as they are system solutions for a chronic problem. In tele-chemotherapy, it's simple, really. It's rural nurses. They are not chemotherapy nurses, they are general nurses. They administer selected chemotherapy regimens under the direct supervision of doctors, nurses, and pharmacies from larger centers through telemedicine, tele-nursing, and tele-pharmacy. So all we need for tele-chemotherapy to happen, if you have a larger center willing to supervise a smaller center or a larger center is now expected to do that through Health System directives, then I think we can implement that throughout the system.
And what we have done in Queensland, we got the Queensland State Government to implement that because we got a governance document called "Queensland Remote Chemotherapy Supervision Model and Guide for Implementation." Basically, that articulates how to set up these services safely. But we already published that in the Journal of Oncology Practice in 2018, so that was a rewarding experience. But then what we found, we could do immunotherapy infusions, toxic chemotherapy like that and all those things in smaller centers, but we couldn't do clinical trials because, as Chris said, it's highly regulated. So then we said, "How come you can do toxic intensive chemotherapy but not clinical trials?" So that's how the Australasian teletrial model was born.
So we thought we will use the teletrial model to connect larger centers with smaller centers to create trial clusters so that you can really distribute the clinical trials activity to the regional, rural, and remote areas. So now we have an Australian teletrial model and a national teletrial principle as a government policy to enable that. Through some pilots we published in the Journal of Telemedicine & Telecare, the Australian government actually funded $125 million to transform the Australian clinical trial sector as a network and a national system, so that patients from regional, remote, and rural areas can access clinical trials, some or all aspects of clinical trials closer to home. So that is exciting because it's about one year into the program and already we could see the narrative is changing, and we are saying clinical trials need to be offered as networks, not as silos anymore, because of social justice and equity. So that's been becoming powerful.
And also, we've been now pushing the Ethics Committee to mandate that clinical trials need to be done as clusters because it is an ethical social justice issue. So I think if you have good governance and government support, I feel that we can actually implement these models in larger parts of the rural sector. Not all of them, but in larger parts. But I just wanted to highlight before I finish that the decentralized trials becoming popular and I feel like the decentralized trials are kind of hijacking the rural narrative here because they are not decentralized trials in my observation, they should be decentralized trial systems. And rather than bypassing hospitals and directly dealing with patients at home, in a lot of the trials, it seems that most of those patients are actually metropolitan patients. And I think any decentralized trial systems have to focus on partnerships with rural sectors, capability or capacity building of rural sectors so that you could really deliver clinical trials in a distributed network system to really fix this problem once and for all.
Dr. Jack Hensold: Sabe, it sounds like there's much that we can learn from paying attention to what's going on in Australia. It seems like your group is well ahead of the curve in terms of what needs to happen in rural areas. Chris, comments about that as well?
Dr. Chris Prakash: Yeah, I was going to say, I think excellent job, Sabe. Kudos to you for doing this in Australia. It's a clinical dilemma. It's an ethical dilemma. Sometimes clinical trials are fundamental to providing good quality care for our patients. But the American healthcare system is complex. Clinical trials, sad to say, I mean, that they're money makers for a lot of big institutions or pharmaceutical companies for sure. So what these companies are looking for is if they have a new drug, they want to get a trial done as quickly as possible, get positive data, and then get it approved. It's really hard to find a good phase III, randomized, placebo-controlled trial anymore. They're just nonexistent. They're all phase I, II, quick one year, get the data, and file for approval with the FDA. So I get your point. I think I would love to have a good trial where we can put patients on, rural patients on, but I don't know if that's going to be possible.
Now, what I'm doing in Texas Oncology, I'm the director of Quality Services, so that is my goal; is to give quality care to the whole state population wherever we can. And clinical trials is the most difficult task, I'm finding. I can make testing consistent, I can make treatment protocols consistent, but getting patients on clinical trials is a very difficult task. So, kudos to you, Sabe. You're doing an excellent job.
Dr. Jack Hensold: It's actually the main enabler for us is actually the government intervention, because what we felt was the rural sector has been left in the hands of clinicians and local health managers for far too long, but no one was in charge of that gap. So now, by the governments coming to the party and trying to implement some policies and funding mechanisms, things are changing. But really still, I found the advocacy hasn't stopped and there's still a long way to go, even in Australia, but it's pure advocacy from rural oncologists like us.
Dr. Chris Prakash: Yeah, I think that kind of highlights the difference in American and Australian healthcare systems probably. I know the American healthcare system is still very private. I mean, we have a big Medicare part of the equation, but again, a lot of health care is really delivered by private companies, hospital systems that are for profit, pharmaceutical companies really have strong lobbying systems. So it's a complex situation here.
Dr. Jack Hensold: Yeah, I would agree with that fully in that, when I was hearing Sabe talk about things and comparing it to our experience in this country, we are very fragmented in terms of our care delivery systems, and trying to get a coordinated approach to how we address this rural health problem is difficult because we're bringing so many different people to the table who all have different points of view in terms of how they look at this. So, again, this may be a much harder piece to try to achieve just simply because of the fragmentation of the way we provide care in this country.
So, Dr. Prakash, you're a member of several groups that address the needs for rural cancer care in the United States including ASCO's Rural Cancer Care Task Force, as well as the work you do with the Texas Oncology Society. Can you be a little bit more specific about those efforts?
Dr. Chris Prakash: Thanks, Jack. As you know, I was a member of the ASCO Task Force on Rural Cancer Care. This was put together in 2019, and then the pandemic happened. The timing was just right. But we were tasked with finding and really defining what the challenges of rural cancer care are and what are the solutions that we can come up with. It was a very hard job, but we did come up with some solutions on that, mainly increasing provider education, workforce enhancement. We have talked about a few of these things already - telehealth, promotion, and of course, research. But as you know, these solutions are easier said than done, and work continues on these fronts. And thank you, Jack, for taking the lead on many of these issues in the US.
So currently, as you know, I'm the President of the Texas Society of Clinical Oncology, and I'm doing a lot of advocacy work at the state capitol in Austin regarding various bills and provisions, but especially to garner support on a new biomarker bill. So this bill, if passed, will help pay for all biomarker testing in cancer. So there are disparities and rural disparities in cancer care. So if this bill is passed with the biomarker testing, this may go a long way in removing some of the disparities that our patients face in terms of testing biomarkers and payment for those tests as well. And I firmly believe that quality of care should be consistent no matter where a patient lives. I'm the Director of Quality Services for Texas Oncology. I'm leading the Precision Medicine initiative for the state, and I'm developing protocols for consistent biomarker testing, mutational analysis, and tumors and treatment protocols. So efforts continue, and please stay tuned.
Dr. Jack Hensold: Thank you for that and all the work you do, Chris. I think it's an important point, and I've been involved through the Montana State Oncology Society, which is our society in terms of doing advocacy at the state level as well. And I think that's very important, particularly for states that have large rural populations, because I'm not sure nationally, people fully understand some of the difficulties that those patients face. And advocating for improved health care across the board is critical. And the rural patient needs to be considered. As we think about any changes to how we invest in healthcare in this country, the laws are regulated.
Dr. Chris Prakash: You're exactly right. I mean, advocacy is very, very important. And our Congressmen and representatives, they do listen. As a physician, you go and talk to them and express concerns about what the constituents are going through and the hurdles they're facing in their care. They will listen and you can make a change. And that's what fascinates me about practicing in a rural setting, is that I can make a difference. I can see a change. Just over the last 20 years that I've been here, things have changed. Not all for the better, but you can be a part of the whole process.
Dr. Jack Hensold: Yes, I would completely concur. I think our legislators nationally and statewide are very responsive to our voices. If there's something that's impacting their constituents in terms of the care that they're receiving, they're going to want to know about that. And they're happy to look like the champions, I think, to support improving their care. It's something we all can do a better job at nationally. Sabe, not to leave you out of that conversation, any thoughts about that?
Dr. Sabe Sabesan: I mean, the advocacy is the key. That is also one of our jobs as doctors. But the main thing about advocacy is actually self-care, I found. As long as we don't burn out and we keep our energy level going and focus on recharging and minimizing energy discharge, we stay strong and take our colleagues with us. I think that's what I learned in advocacy is to make sure we don't drain our energy in that process.
Dr. Jack Hensold: The quality of care should be the same for every patient, no matter where they live. And that really is kind of one of the driving principles for me in terms of why I got into this rural cancer care task force and the initiatives that we're taking on. And I'd like to describe a project right now that I've undertaken with ASCO and with our local regional health center and a medium-sized hospital in our area. Actually not in our area, it's 125 miles away, but an area that we service, and patients regularly come to our regional center for their cancer care, I think, was the appreciation that this 250-mile round trip, particularly to receive things like chemotherapy, was just a tremendous burden for patients from that area.
And in addition to the problems with the financial aspects of traveling long distances to receive that care, there was also the issue that we were sending patients back to fairly distant sites to experience the toxicities associated with our treatments without sufficient support in those sites locally in terms of understanding what needed to be done. That really led to this initiative with ASCO and Barrett Health in Montana, as well as Bozeman Health. And we've now been funded as part of a multi-year pilot program to increase high-quality and equitable cancer care at this site in rural Montana. And the work in this area was based on, again, the prior work on the task force that Dr. Prakash talked about in terms of identifying what barriers were in place to getting care to patients in their own community and how we could overcome these barriers.
And really, the concept of this program is to enable patients to receive care in their own community through what's described as a hub-and-spoke care delivery model. This is an established method for extending access to cancer care in remote rural areas. In fact, I think, as Dr. Sabesan talked about, I think much of the published work in this area has actually come out of Australia. So again, kudos again to that health system in terms of taking the initiative on these things.
And the initiative that we were talking about aims again to keep patients in their own community for as much of their cancer care as feasible, not to rely on that long drive to our regional site to get care. We understand this will require education and training of primary care physicians, advanced practice providers, pharmacists, and nurses at what we would refer to as the spoke site. And specifically, this needs to focus on education regarding how to properly administer infusion services and also how do we provide adequate supportive care for the cancer patients.
We do appreciate that those providers at that distant site, we can never really expect them to have full knowledge to appreciate what treatment cancer patients will need at any given point in time. But that really is where the expertise of the oncologist comes in. And oversight from the hub site will be provided by oncologists both by telehealth and supplemented, by regularly scheduled onsite visits by the oncologist to ensure just a seamless integration of care at both the hub and the spoke site and also to ensure the shared culture of cancer care between those two sites.
So that is the intent of the pilot that we're setting up. As we achieve function of that site, we will be doing quality measures to ensure that the care that's being administered at the spoke is really equivalent to what they would be receiving at the hub. So hopefully this will become a model for how we can deliver care to more remote rural areas in this country. I'd like to give Dr. Sabesan and Dr. Prakash an opportunity to make further comments regarding that model and any suggestions they may have; I'm willing to take in terms of how we can achieve this end.
Dr. Chris Prakash: Yeah. Thank you, Jack. And again, kudos to you for being so passionate about taking care of patients in rural areas with their cancer care. But I think you highlighted the most important thing: we've got to be passionate, we've got to care, we have to do everything possible, find solutions. There are many challenges in this realm. So the hub-and-spoke model, that's very helpful, but again, we may need more multi-hub models or regional hubs, so to say on that. Education, keep developing the workforce, retain the workforce that we have, provide access to research, promote telehealth as much as possible. I think these are all pieces to the puzzle. Keep doing advocacy and just work and hopefully not get burnt out. So yeah, it's a work in progress, but again, that's why I'm doing this because I'm passionate about this, and thank you so much for having me as a part of this conversation.
Dr. Jack Hensold: Well, thank you for participating. Sabe, any comments?
Dr. Sabe Sabesan: Yeah, thank you. I really enjoyed being part of this conversation and I think it looks like it's almost good to have a community of international rural practice like this so that we can share and implement within our sector. And I'm really looking forward to seeing how your pilot project evolves, Jack, and how that can become a model for the whole of the country. Good luck to you.
Dr. Jack Hensold: Thank you very much for that. And again, just a comment about the international working on this. We do have someone from Romania on our current task force. There's a group there that's very interested in providing kind of hub-and-spoke model care. So these are topics that I think are really getting on everyone's radar internationally. Again, I think the more buy-in we get internationally as well as nationally, the more wind we will have at our backs in making some improvements in this. Thank you, Dr. Prakash, for your insight into this topic and also to Professor Sabesan for his perspective from his practice in Australia.
I'm Dr. Hensold and I would like to thank all of our listeners of Cancer Topics and ASCO Education Podcast. This is where we explore topics ranging from implementing new cancer treatments and improving patient care to oncologist well-being and professional development. If you have an idea for a topic or a guest you'd like to hear on the show, please email us at education@asco.org. To stay up to date with the latest episodes and explore other educational content, visit education.asco.org.
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And I think most importantly, it's a disease that has a dramatically better prognosis than the tobacco related disease. Now over the last several decades, our ability to treat advanced head and neck cancer has improved significantly, because we've begun to incorporate non-operative treatments-- chemotherapy and radiation-- and have been more aggressive in our utilization of chemotherapy and radiation with significantly greater success than we had in the past. The problem with this kind of treatment is that it is quite rigorous. And there's a good deal of acute and, more importantly, late toxicity that patients experience from these kinds of approaches. Now as we became more familiar with the importance of HPV associated oropharynx cancer, we realized that there are subgroups of these patients who have cure rates that are in excess of 90%. And the question arose whether the kinds of rigorous chemotherapy and radiation therapy treatments that we were utilizing were really necessary. Was it necessary to cause this much acute and late toxicity in patients who in vast majority of cases were going to be cured of the disease.
And it's important, because these are younger patients. And the late toxicities are going to have a major impact on their quality of life for a number of years.
What came about was the notion of treatment deintensification, the idea that perhaps it would be possible to deintensify the kinds of treatments we were giving in select patients. It's a very compelling hypothesis for medical oncologists and radiation oncologists. But there are a number of problems as we try to test this hypothesis. The first problem is how do we identify the good risk patients? There are patients with HPV-positive disease who do not do so well-- the heavy smokers and patients with very advanced tumors. And we need to be careful if we're going to be talking about giving less treatment that we don't give less treatment to the patients who have a worse prognosis. We pick the best prognosis patients.
There have been a number of what we call risk stratification schemes that have been developed looking at trying to identify the very good prognosis patients-- those patients who are HPV positive who don't smoke and who have relatively limited disease extent. There's not universal agreement on how best to define these patients. All we know is that they do exist, that you can look at patients with these characteristics and see very good outcomes. One of the issues that has come up is how do we utilize the American Joint Committee staging system-- AJCC the 8th edition. One of the things that AJCC 8 did which is new is that it defined a separate staging system for patients with HPV-positive oropharynx cancer, a system which is entirely different than the staging system that we've used for head and neck cancers for many years. This was based on the recognition that the prognosis of patients with HPV-positive disease is so good so that many patients who we would previously have considered to have stage 4 disease are now classified as having stage 1 tumors, because their prognosis is so good. And that can be confusing, because the typical thought process for an oncologist is that a patient with stage 1 disease should be treated with single modality therapy.
The reason that the HPV-positive patients have such a good prognosis, however, is that many of them have been treated with combined modality therapies. And to make the assumption that because now they're classified as stage 1 is incorrect. It is they shouldn't be treated with less intensive treatments and can be confusing. AJCC 8th edition is a prognostic robust staging system, but it really doesn't help us in defining treatment.
First problem is how best to define patients who are appropriate for deintensification. Second problem is, what do you do to deintensify? What constitutes meaningful deintensification?
Well, over the last 10 or 20 years there have been some significant advances in our standard treatments for all head and neck cancers that weren't developed the idea of deintensification. We now have tremendous experience using transoral surgical techniques, which are generally minimally morbid, much less morbid than the former open techniques that previously were used, which allows consideration of surgery for many of these patients where we wouldn't have considered it before.
Similarly, intensity modulated radiation therapy has been widely adopted, and d clearly an approach using radiation, which is far less difficult, far less toxic than the former 2D or 3D radiation planning techniques that used to be used.
But if we talk about intensification, what kinds of things can we do to deintensify our treatments? Well, one thought is to reduce the radiation dose. Then the question is, how much reduction is reasonable? And how much reduction is going to actually impact on this toxicity? And are our toxicity measuring tools adequate to even detect the difference in reduction of a radiation dose? Many of our toxicity tools are very crude. Perhaps we should be using some of the patient-reported outcome quality of life instruments that are available.
Other thoughts are, perhaps one can reduce the size of the radiation therapy field. Can we reduce the dose of the chemotherapy? Can we eliminate chemotherapy? Can we even use less intensive chemotherapy? Generally, the other treatments for this disease have employed high doses of cisplatin, which is a toxic agent.
And then there the question has been asked as to whether we can reincorporate minimally morbid transoral surgical techniques in an effort to better pathologically stage patients and define more appropriate adjuvant treatment. Perhaps not all patients need adjuvant radiation or chemotherapy and radiation.
All of these approaches are interesting. They're exciting. They're being tested. But all of the experiences is preliminary.
And that really brings us to the third and the biggest problem in any deintensification approach. And that's the need to be certain that if we deintensify our therapy, we're not going to compromise outcomes. It would not be acceptable to give less treatment or less intensive treatment if our survival were compromised. And we have to be certain that we don't do this.
So what has evolved over the past decade is a whole number of treatment approaches that have some very enthusiastic early results. But these are generally single arm phase 2 reports where there is no comparison to conventional treatment. And they become difficult to interpret, because the results in general are very good. I think what really raised a red flag for us and that really caused us to take notice was the results of the RTOG 1016 trial that we reported last year. And at the same time, the European de-escalate trial, both of which had a similar design. These were studies that were designed in an effort to see if treatment deintensification would be possible by randomly comparing the standard treatment radiation and cisplatin with what was felt to be a less intensive approach-- radiation and concurrent cetuximab. And cetuximab is an accepted agent in the United States for treating head and neck cancer.
The assumption here is that the survival would be equivalent when these two arms were compared, but that the toxicity would be improved by giving the less intensive systemic agent-- the cetuximab. The surprise when the study was analyzed was that that assumption was incorrect, that the radiation and cetuximab arm-- the deintensified arm-- actually proved inferior in terms of survival. And this was in both trials-- both the RTOG trial and the trial from Europe. And that was a big note of caution, because it was somewhat unexpected. I think we learned from that kind of a study, from a good randomized-- a large randomized trial-- that even though the outcomes may appear to be good, we need to be very careful about deintensifying our treatment until we're sure that the survival is equivalent.
So although it's tempting for the clinician to see these very exciting reports about administering less treatment with the idea of producing less toxicity, the guideline advisory committee for ASCO really thought it was important that we get the message out that this kind of approach is not a treatment standard. This remains an investigational approach, and that the treatment standards for this disease really haven't changed.
So what are the provisional clinical opinions that were made by the expert panel?
They made several statements. The first was to acknowledge that the idea of treatment deintensification is a very compelling hypothesis, and it does require careful and appropriate testing. The second was that even though we are now better at identifying good prognosis patients, and we've seen some very promising early results, and even though we're now reclassifying patients with previously advanced stage HPV-positive disease as stage 1 or stage 2 tumors, the treatment recommendations for this disease have not changed. And they're based on the results achieved using AJCC 6 and 7.
Standard of non-operated management to patients who are eligible to receive cisplatin remains high concurrent radiation and high dose cisplatin given every three weeks. If patients undergoing a surgical resection, then adjuvant chemotherapy and radiation with radiation and high dose cisplatin every three weeks is recommended in those patients with high risk factors of positive surgical margins or external tumor extension.
And most importantly, deintensification, though it's a compelling hypothesis, is something that should only be undertaken on a clinical trial.
Why is this guidance so important? And how will it affect practice? Well, I think the important thing about this guideline is that it shouldn't affect practice. The practice shouldn't change. The standards of care are not altered. And that for the clinician, this remains something that is exciting, something that should encourage enrollment on a clinical trial, but that we haven't changed treatment standards.
And finally, how will this guidance affect patients?
So from a patient's point of view, I think there is continued reason for optimism. A patient with the diagnosis of an HPV-positive oropharynx cancer is a patient with a very good prognosis. Patients are increasingly sophisticated. They read about the potential for treatment deintensification, and recognize that this is not something which is an accepted standard. But it should encourage their participation in clinical trials if [INAUDIBLE] is offered.
I think ultimately it's a remarkable thing when oncologists can consider the possibility of reducing treatment intensity because the treatment results have been so good.
Great. Thank you for your overview of this PCO. And thank you for your time today, Dr. Adelstein.
And thank you, Shannon. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning into the ASCO Guidelines Podcast series. To read the full PCO, go to www.asco.org/head-neck-cancer-guidelines. And if you've enjoyed what you've heard today, please rate and review the podcast and refer the show to a colleague.
And what are the key recommendations of this guideline?
Well, so the recommendations of this guideline do depend on the pathology, so how high risk the patient is. So based on the evidence from the IDEA collaboration, the researchers found that patients who had a high risk of recurrence-- so had T4 disease or heavily node-positive disease, N2 disease-- the six-month duration of therapy was better than the three-month duration of therapy. These studies and the meta-analysis were designed as noninferiority meta-analyses. But it was clear from the results that the three-month duration was inferior when compared to three months for these high-risk patients. So that seems clear, although we know that those patients will also be at more risk of neuropathy. And so that needs to be discussed with patients, as well. So for the second group, which are patients who are at lower risk of recurrence, what we found was there was less of a clear benefit of six months of therapy. The recommendation was that patients who are in this low-risk category-- so T1, T2, or T3 cancers that are N1, so not heavily node-positive-- clinicians can offer three months versus six months of therapy after having a discussion with their patients about the pros and cons of that. So the clinicians can go ahead and offer that to patients and still be within the common guidelines based on evidence for treatment of stage III colon cancer. So because there's some uncertainty after analysis of the IDEA collaboration, one of the really important recommendations that we make is about this shared decision-making approach. So the third recommendation that we make is that oncologists should discuss these factors with their patients who have stage III resected colon cancer and that the duration of therapy needs to take into account the tumor characteristics-- the surgical resection, the number of lymph nodes examined, the comorbidities, the patient functional status, all of these various things-- and there needs to be a discussion of the potential for benefit and the risk of harm based on the duration of therapy. And oncologists definitely discuss these things with their patients. And this just emphasizes how this is yet another component of the discussion that needs to be included, particularly when speaking with low-risk patients who are at substantial risk of harm from neuropathy and are unlikely to benefit greatly by extending chemotherapy to six months.
So why is this guideline so important? And how will it change practice?
Well, I think, until now, the standard recommendation has been six months of FOLFOX or six months of oxaliplatin-based chemotherapy. And again, there are many patients who have quality of life-affecting neuropathy because of this. So for a substantial proportion of patients who present to us with stage III cancer-- so those that are low risk-- I think this provides some options to them. So they can opt for a shorter duration of chemotherapy with a lower risk of toxicity. This saves time. This saves cost to the patient and to the system and potentially improves their quality of life without a great impact on outcome in terms of disease recurrence. So that's a substantial number, a substantial proportion of our patients, who can be treated in this way. So I think that this is a real benefit. Again, oncologists need to have a conversation with their patients about the pros and cons. But this is an option for their patients, whereas from an evidence-based perspective, it wasn't before the publication of the IDEA collaboration.
Finally, how will these guideline recommendations affect patients?
So for patients who have heavily node-positive disease-- so high-risk patients with T4 or N2 disease-- it's not going to affect care. So the expectation would be those patients would be treated with six months of therapy, similar to previous recommendations. So this will be for people who are at lower risk of disease recurrence, so patients with T1 to 3 tumors that are N1 positive, so not heavily node positive. So these patients will have the opportunity to opt for a shorter duration of therapy. So that's a major benefit to patients. Again, it's important that there's a discussion and that patients understand the pros and cons. But this is now an option for them, which is excellent.
Thank you to all of our listeners for tuning into the ASCO Guidelines Podcast series. To read the full guideline, please go to www.asco.org/gastrointestinal-cancer-guidelines. And if you've enjoyed what you've heard today, please rate and review the podcast and refer the show to a colleague.
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