Explorez tous les épisodes du podcast APORDE Podcast Series

Twenty years on, what happens when you sit down with two of the people who helped build APORDE and ask them what they were actually trying to change?

In this episode of the APORDE Podcast, Thobani K is joined by Professor Nicolas Pons-Vignon and Dr. Nimrod Zalk for a wide-ranging conversation about the origins of the African Programme on Rethinking Development Economics, the battle of ideas around industrial policy, and why training a new generation of economists and policymakers became part of a much bigger strategy for change.

The conversation moves from the dominance of neoliberal economics and the influence of the “Chicago Boys” to South Africa’s own industrial policy journey, the role of the state, and the tension between ambitious policy and the resources available to actually implement it. Along the way, they reflect on APORDE’s impact across Africa and the network of policymakers, academics and practitioners it has helped build over two decades.

It’s also a conversation about what comes next: why rethinking development economics remains necessary, why industrial policy alone cannot answer every social challenge, and why APORDE must continue creating space for new ideas, arguments and people.

Want to be part of it? Keep an eye out for the next APORDE call for applications, subscribe to the mailing list for programme updates, and follow the APORDE Alumni Network on LinkedIn. More information, previous seminars and episodes are available through the APORDE website.

Credits:

Host: Thobani K
Guests: Dr. Nimrod Zalk and Prof. Nicolas Pons-Vignon 
Producer: Niki Cattaneo
Researcher: Niki Cattaneo 
Editorial Reviewer: Nokwanda Maseko 
Audio Recording: Thobani K
Audio Editing and Engineering: Richard Rumney 
Photography: Thobani K
Graphic Design: Thobani K
Social Media Distribution: Thobani K

In this episode of the APORDE Podcast Series, host Thobani K speaks with Professor Mushtaq Khan of SOAS University of London about governance, corruption, and why many development and industrial policies fail at the point of implementation.

Professor Khan introduces his influential concept of political settlements and explains why effective governance reforms must be pragmatic, incremental, and aligned with existing power structures. The discussion challenges moralistic approaches to corruption, rethinks anti-corruption strategies, and explores how industrial policy can succeed when designed around feasible enforcement and real incentives.

In this episode, Prof. Mwangi Wa Gĩthĩnji (University of Massachusetts Amherst) challenges the idea that there’s a single road to “modernity.” Drawing on his co-edited trilogy Decolonial Reconstellations—especially Volume II, Dissolving Master Narratives—he argues for development defined as expanding people’s possibilities in their own historical and ecological context. That means industrialising under climate constraints, negotiating transformation within democratic politics, and learning from others without copy-pasting their models.

The conversation then turns to AfCFTA: why tariff cuts alone won’t deliver structural transformation and may entrench uneven development if stronger economies simply supply weaker ones. Prof. Wa Gĩthĩnji makes the case for planned specialisation, reciprocity, and honest compensation mechanisms—starting with clear regional compacts that align industrial policy across countries. It’s a pragmatic roadmap for integration that respects politics on the ground while aiming for shared prosperity.

Host Thobani K sits down with Dr. Seeraj Mohamed (Deputy Director for Economics, South African Parliamentary Budget Office; Adjunct Professor, UWC) to unpack what sets heterodox/decolonial economics apart from the mainstream. Dr. Mohamed traces the shift from political economy’s focus on production, reproduction, and distribution to neoclassical models centred on markets and “rational” agents—showing what gets left out: unpaid care work, environmental costs, power, institutions, and collective dynamics (think Ubuntu) that shape real economies.

The discussion then turns to South Africa’s macro policy since 1994—from GEAR and inflation targeting to capital-account liberalisation—and why headline GDP growth can mask speculative bubbles, inequality, and jobless outcomes. Dr. Mohamed argues for policy that prioritises productive investment, employment, and social capability, with the state using fiscal and financial tools alongside monetary policy to build an inclusive, resilient economy.

In this episode, Thobani K speaks with Prof. Fiona Tregenna (University of Johannesburg; SARChI in Industrial Development) about the evolution and significance of APORDE—the African Programme on Rethinking Development Economics. Prof. Tregenna reflects on two decades of the programme, why exposure to plural and heterodox perspectives matters, and how APORDE and its sister course IPPM (Industrial Policy for Policymakers) build lasting professional networks across the continent.

The conversation then turns to why industrial development and industrial policy remain central to Africa’s growth—what went wrong with premature de-industrialisation, how to rebuild capabilities, and why state capacity is best developed through “learning by doing.” From trade and green transition to technological upgrading and regional integration, this episode maps a practical path for policymakers, researchers, and practitioners committed to transformative development.

With Aporde 2024 having recently taken place, we are pleased to present a series of interviews with some of this year's lecturers and attendees.. These interviews are hosted and conducted by Trade & Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS) Communications Officer Nondwe Majundana and feature a diverse range of specialists in the field of development economics.

Honorable Zeinab Camara is a prominent Guinean political leader, senior international consultant, and partner in a strategy and advisory firm specializing in governance, development, and the extractive industries in Africa. With nearly two decades of experience across public, private, and non-governmental sectors, she is renowned for her expertise in designing and managing public-private partnerships in large infrastructure projects within the extractive industry. A former Guinean public servant and mining expert, she was recognized among the Global 100 Most Influential Women in Mining by the International Women in Mining Association. Camara's impressive career includes serving as Chief of Staff for the Ministry of Higher Education and Scientific Research, a board member of the National Institute of Mining and Geology, and a member of the Guinean National Assembly representing Boffa, an extractive resources prefecture.

Zeinab Camara has also played a pivotal role in advancing social and economic development. She was instrumental in establishing Guinea’s National Agency for Civil Services to combat youth unemployment and has been a driving force in community engagement and social compliance initiatives within the mining sector. A transformative leader, she founded Women in Mining Guinea and developed the "Women in Mining Africa Index." She also serves on the boards of Africa 2.0 Governing Council and the Guinea Mining Club. Currently, she leads groundbreaking initiatives as the founder of L’Institut Poliethic for Leadership and Governance Fit for Purpose and the AI Revolution Africa Movement, reflecting her commitment to innovation and empowerment across the continent.

With Aporde 2024 having recently taken place, we are pleased to present a series of interviews with some of this year's lecturers and attendees.. These interviews are hosted and conducted by Trade & Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS) Communications Officer Nondwe Majundana and feature a diverse range of specialists in the field of development economics.

Adeyemi Dipeolu is an economist, diplomat, and public administrator. Until May 2023, he served as Special Adviser to the President on Economic Matters in the Office of the Vice President Osinbajo of Nigeria. Prior to this, Dr Dipeolu was at the UN Economic Commission for Africa where he served as Coordinator of the Africa Trade Policy Centre, Chief of Staff and Director of the Capacity Development Division respectively. While at ECA he led work on Transformative Industrial Policy and on Conflict and Development in Africa. He was also Head of Secretariat of the High-Level Panel on Illicit Financial Flows from Africa and lead author of its Final Report. 

Before joining ECA, Dr Dipeolu was in the Nigerian Foreign Service where he rose to the rank of Ambassador and served in Caracas, Addis Ababa, Pretoria and Geneva respectively. He was also deployed from the Foreign Service as a Special Assistant, Economic Coordination and Policy in the Office of the Chief of Staff to President Obasanjo. 

Dr Dipeolu is a Fellow of the Nigerian Economic Society and studied at the Universities of Ife, Oxford, Cambridge and South Africa. He is a Special Adviser to the Coalition for Dialogue on Africa (Addis Ababa), an Adjunct Professor at the Nelson Mandela School of Public Governance of the University of Cape Town, a Fellow of the Development Leadership Dialogue Institute of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, a Member of the AfCFTA Trade and Industrial Policy Advisory Council (Accra) and Member of the Board of the Centre for African Development and Investment (Abu Dhabi). 

Photo used courtesy of the Nelson Mandela School of Governance.

With Aporde 2024 having recently taken place, we are pleased to present a series of interviews with some of this year's lecturers and attendees.. These interviews are hosted and conducted by Trade & Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS) Communications Officer Nondwe Majundana and feature a diverse range of specialists in the field of development economics.

Comrade Echezona Asuzu serves as the Principal Assistant General Secretary of the Nigeria Labour Congress (NLC) and is the National Coordinator of its Climate Change, Green Jobs, and Just Transition Program. With a Master’s degree in Industrial and Employment Relations from the University of Turin, his expertise centers on Just Transition and organizing. He is an integral member of Nigeria’s National Steering Committee on Climate Change and related initiatives, collaborating with the Federal Ministry of Labour and Employment, employers’ organizations, and other governmental bodies to address climate change and promote a sustainable future.

Comrade Asuzu has led training programs for NLC-affiliated unions and played a pivotal role in advocating for the NLC’s inclusion as a State Negotiating Partner at international forums like COP28. In 2024, he will facilitate NLC’s hosting of two side events at COP29 in Baku, Azerbaijan. A fellow of the DfID Change Champions Program and South Africa’s APORDE initiative, he is recognized for his leadership in development economics and climate-related advocacy. He resides in Abuja, Nigeria, with his family.

With Aporde 2024 having recently taken place, we are pleased to present a series of interviews with some of this year's lecturers and attendees.. These interviews are hosted and conducted by Trade & Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS) Communications Officer Nondwe Majundana and feature a diverse range of specialists in the field of development economics.

Dr. Uduak Akpan is an accomplished and versatile Development Economist with a strong research background and extensive professional experience in implementing development projects. He has expertise in designing and conducting comprehensive economic research, particularly in the energy and transport sectors. He has led several teams to conduct in-depth analyses of energy access, rural transport, rural development, etc, providing valuable insights to guide decision-making for both public sector clients and multilateral development organizations.

Specifically, he has worked as a consultant for different organizations including ILC Africa (Ghana), African Governance and Development Institute (Cameroun), and the African Development Bank (AfDB). He has experience in implementing donor-funded projects spanning civil works, livelihood support, institutional capacity building, and project management. He has published numerous influential research papers in respected journals, contributing to advancing knowledge in the energy and transport sectors.

He holds a BSc in Statistics from the University of Uyo (Nigeria); an M.Sc. in Energy Studies with specialization in Energy Economics (with distinction) from the University of Dundee, United Kingdom; and a Ph.D. in Development Economics from SOAS University of London, United Kingdom. Dr. Uduak Akpan brings a unique blend of research experience, practical experiences in the implementation of projects, and international exposure to his work

With Aporde 2024 having recently taken place, we are pleased to present a series of interviews with some of this year's lecturers and attendees.. These interviews are hosted and conducted by Trade & Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS) Communications Officer Nondwe Majundana and feature a diverse range of specialists in the field of development economics.

Ha-Joon Chang has worked on a wide range of issues related to economic development, especially trade and industrial policies, productive capabilities development, institutions and development, global economic system, the history of economic development in today’s rich countries, and the political economy of development.

In addition to numerous journal articles and book chapters, he has published 17 authored books (five co-authored) and 11 edited books (seven co-edited). His main books include The Political Economy of Industrial Policy, Kicking Away the Ladder, Bad Samaritans, 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism, and Economics: The User’s Guide. His latest book is Edible Economics. His writings have been translated and published in 45 languages and 46 countries. Worldwide, his books have sold around 2.5 million copies.

Chang has advised numerous international organizations, national governments, civil society organizations, and corporations (both private-sector and public). He is currently a member of CDP (Committee for Development Policy), the highest advisory body of the United Nations on development issues, as well as committees overseeing or advising other international organizations (e.g., UNRISD, AIIB) and academic bodies (e.g., IDS, Sussex). Chang is the winner of the 2003 Gunnar Myrdal Prize and the 2005 Wassily Leontief Prize.

With Aporde 2024 having recently taken place, we are pleased to present a series of interviews with some of this year's lecturers and attendees.. These interviews are hosted and conducted by Trade & Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS) Communications Officer Nondwe Majundana and feature a diverse range of specialists in the field of development economics.

Dr. Arkebe Oqubay, endorsed by the African Union, is Africa's sole candidate for Director General of the United Nations Industrial Development Organization (UNIDO). As a Senior Minister and Special Adviser to Ethiopia's Prime Minister, he has played a central role in shaping Ethiopia’s economic policies for over 30 years. His leadership has been crucial in driving the country’s economic transformation through bold reforms and strategic decision-making.

Dr. Arkebe has been a strong advocate for inclusive and sustainable industrial development. He has promoted private sector growth, secured significant investment in manufacturing, and forged international partnerships for resource mobilization. His efforts include pioneering eco-industrial parks and special economic zones, boosting productive capacity, and advancing urban and economic infrastructure development.

In addition to the six main episodes of the Aporde Podcast Series, we are pleased to present a supplementary series of interviews. These interviews are hosted and conducted by Trade & Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS) Communications Officer Nondwe Majundana and feature a diverse range of specialists in the field of development economics.

Mwanda Phiri-Mwewa is an economist who serves as Africa Lead at the Charter Cities Institute (CCI), overseeing CCI Zambia. Previously, she led the Trade and Investment Unit at the Zambia Institute for Policy Analysis and Research. Mwanda has influenced national policies, contributing to key documents such as the 7th National Development Plan and Zambia’s Tariff Phase-down Schedule for AfCFTA. She's authored publications, focusing on trade, investment, and urban economics. Notable appointments include the Capital Markets Tribunal and membership in the World Economic Forum’s Global Future Council on Complex Risks. She holds an MSc in Economics and Public Policy.

In addition to the six main episodes of the Aporde Podcast Series, we are pleased to present a supplementary series of interviews. These interviews are hosted and conducted by Trade & Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS) Communications Officer Nondwe Majundana and feature a diverse range of specialists in the field of development economics.

Mwangi Wa Gĩthĩnji is an Associate Professor and Graduate Program Director of Economics at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst. He co-directs the World Studies Interdisciplinary Project and chaired the Five Colleges African Studies Council. Previously, he held positions at Gettysburg College, Pennsylvania, focusing on economics and Africana Studies. Mwangi authored "Ten Millionaires and Ten Million Beggars" and co-authored "An Employment Targeted Plan for Kenya," along with numerous articles and chapters. His research delves into the Political Economy of Development, emphasizing class, gender, and income distribution in African agrarian transition and nationhood. He advises multilateral and national agencies, including UNDP and Economic Commission for Africa, and serves on editorial boards of journals like Canadian Journal of Development Studies and African Studies Review.

In addition to the six main episodes of the Aporde Podcast Series, we are pleased to present a supplementary series of interviews. These interviews are hosted and conducted by Trade & Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS) Communications Officer Nondwe Majundana and feature a diverse range of specialists in the field of development economics.

Asma Othman is an aspiring Social Entrepreneur in providing technological solutions for Africa’s development. She has a BSc and MSc degrees in Architectural Engineering and Urban Planning from Alexandria University.  Asma is currently pursuing an MSc degree in Social Innovation and Entrepreneurship from the London School of Economics and Political Sciences with a focus on areas of technology and economics, to provide better development and growth opportunities for Africa.

She is an alumni from the seventeenth edition of the African Programme on Rethinking Development Economics (APORDE) in 2023.

In addition to the six main episodes of the Aporde Podcast Series, we are pleased to present a supplementary series of interviews. These interviews are hosted and conducted by Trade & Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS) Communications Officer Nondwe Majundana and feature a diverse range of specialists in the field of development economics.

Dr Rendani Mamphiswana is an innovation expert and policy scholar. His research focuses on innovation (firm level and national), and policy (science, technology, innovation and industrial in the global South). He is an alumni from the seventeenth edition of the African Programme on Rethinking Development Economics (APORDE) in 2023.

In addition to the six main episodes of the Aporde Podcast Series, we are pleased to present a supplementary series of interviews. These interviews are hosted and conducted by TIPS Communications Officer Nondwe Majundana and feature a diverse range of specialists in the field of development economics.

The first interview is with Antonio Andreoni is Professor of Development Economics at the Department of Economics, SOAS University of London. He is also Honorary Professor at the Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose, University College London, and Visiting Professor at the South African Research Chair in Industrial Development, University of Johannesburg.

The African Programme on Rethinking Development Economics (APORDE) is a high high-level training programme in development economics targeting policy-makers, researchers, academics and civil society representatives from Africa and other developing countries. The programme has been running since 2007 and is a joint initiative between the South African Department of Trade, Industry and Competition (the dtic) and Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS).

This first in a six part series will focus on Who Counts? Ayabonga Cawe will explore with his guests what countries measure and what they do not. This, Ayabonga explains, is crucial to any analysis of social change. His guests in this first podcast include,  Alex Cobham, Chief Executive Tax Justice Network, Basani Baloyi, a development economist with the Institute for Economic Justice and Dr Penelope Hawkins, senior economic affairs officer, UNCTAD.

The African Programme on Rethinking Development Economics (APORDE) is a high high-level training programme in development economics targeting policy-makers, researchers, academics and civil society representatives from Africa and other developing countries. The programme has been running since 2007 and is a joint initiative between the South African Department of Trade, Industry and Competition (the dtic) and Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS).

This second in a six part APORDE series will focus on exploring the role of conflict on the African continent by consideration whether political economy considerations help in understanding what informs the key conflicts in Africa. Ayabonga Cawe will explore with his guests Thomas Selemane, an independent economic and governance consultant based in Mozambique and Dr Grieve Chelwa, director of Research Institute on Race, Power and Political Economy at the New School in the US.

The African Programme on Rethinking Development Economics (APORDE) is a high high-level training programme in development economics targeting policy-makers, researchers, academics and civil society representatives from Africa and other developing countries. The programme has been running since 2007 and is a joint initiative between the South African Department of Trade, Industry and Competition (the dtic) and Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS).

This third in a six-part APORDE series focuses on exploring how African countries can finance their investment in infrastructure. Should they be relying on some of the new private financing models such as private equity, venture capital or blended financial models to name but a few or should they be looking at building their own development banks and developing their own domestic capital markets to issue bonds for infrastructure and reindustrialisation? Development economist Ayabonga Cawe will explore this and other difficult questions around the impact of these new instruments for developing economies within the context of the African Continental Free Trade Area (AfCFTA) as well as within the imperatives of a just energy transition and overcoming energy apartheid. He explores these issues together with his guests Sonia Phalatse, a Researcher at the Institute for Economic Justice and Dr Penelope Hawkins, a senior economist in UNCTAD’s debt and development finance branch.

The African Programme on Rethinking Development Economics (APORDE) is a high high-level training programme in development economics targeting policy-makers, researchers, academics and civil society representatives from Africa and other developing countries. The programme has been running since 2007 and is a joint initiative between the South African Department of Trade, Industry and Competition (the dtic) and Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS).

This fourth podcast in a six-part African Programme on Rethinking Development Economics (APORDE) series focuses on exploring how technology change as encapsulated in the term – the fourth industrial revolution (4IR) – will impact on finance and capital markets. Within that how finance functions and the distributional consequences of how it does so and how this will impact on who gets what and who does not get access to resources. Development economist Ayabonga Cawe will explore this by unpacking what 4IR is, its impact on all aspects of our lives such as how we live, produce, what we need to survive and how we interact with each other as well as the opportunities and threats of the technologies associated with 4IR such as digitalisation. He explores these issues together with his guests Rashmi Banga, senior economic affairs officer based at the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD) and Dr Milford Bateman, an economics professor whose main research areas have included local economic development, local financial institutions, and cooperatives.

The African Programme on Rethinking Development Economics (APORDE) is a high high-level training programme in development economics targeting policy-makers, researchers, academics and civil society representatives from Africa and other developing countries. The programme has been running since 2007 and is a joint initiative between the South African Department of Trade, Industry and Competition (the dtic) and Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS).

This fifth podcast in a six-part African Programme on Rethinking Development Economics (APORDE) series focuses on the conversation to data sovereignty and data storage with the emergence of digital technology. The various ways that African economies can advance their digital technologies, develop their capacity for data localisation and the importance of industrial policy to progress the digital potential of African countries. Host development economist, Ayabonga Cawe explores these issues together with his guest Rashmi Banga, senior economic affairs officer based at the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD). 

The African Programme on Rethinking Development Economics (APORDE) is a high high-level training programme in development economics targeting policy-makers, researchers, academics and civil society representatives from Africa and other developing countries. The programme has been running since 2007 and is a joint initiative between the South African Department of Trade, Industry and Competition (the dtic) and Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies (TIPS).

In this 6th episode and last instalment of the APORDE series of Podcasts, hosted by Ayabonga Cawe and joined by Professor Alex van den Heever from the University of Witwatersrand, we consider the very current and relevant debates on public health, pharmaceutical rents, and the role of healthcare as a public good in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic. Our discussion focuses on the manufacture and supply of pharmaceutical treatment products that assist nations to respond to global or even regionalized healthcare crises. From HIV to Ebola to COVID-19, we ask why it's important that Africa produces its own vaccines and treatments to supply its treatment needs and the implications that this has for industrialization.